[00:00.000 --> 00:13.920]  Susan Taylor, Dr. George Frazier, Dr. Julianne Malvo, Dr. Mark Lamont Hill, Jaziri X, Nataki Kambon, and leaders of the Movement for Black Lives, the Global Reparations Movement, and the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan.
[00:14.180 --> 00:18.380]  That's State of the Black World Conference 4, November 16th through the 20th in Newark, New Jersey.
[00:18.380 --> 00:31.460]  For further information and to register today, visit the website, ibw21.org, that's ibw21.org, or call 888-774-2921.
[00:32.720 --> 00:37.580]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:37.780 --> 00:39.680]  It's just after 8 o'clock.
[00:39.800 --> 00:41.620]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[00:52.280 --> 00:54.260]  I cut myself while shaving.
[00:54.740 --> 00:56.840]  Now I can't make a cough.
[00:57.580 --> 00:59.640]  We couldn't get much wordily
[01:02.840 --> 01:05.060]  bump, but the best is back the worst.
[01:05.680 --> 01:07.600]  I hope that's understood.
[01:07.780 --> 01:08.600]  One day, let's go!
[02:32.910 --> 02:35.410]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:35.410 --> 02:37.190]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:37.290 --> 02:38.870]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
[02:39.210 --> 02:40.950]  Joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:41.510 --> 02:42.270]  Hey, what's up?
[02:42.830 --> 02:43.430]  Alex.
[02:43.810 --> 02:44.490]  Evening, everybody.
[02:44.490 --> 02:45.350]  It's been a while.
[02:45.590 --> 02:46.450]  It has.
[02:46.570 --> 02:46.890]  Too long.
[02:47.070 --> 02:48.010]  It has been too long.
[02:48.130 --> 02:48.870]  And Bernie S.
[02:49.370 --> 02:50.770]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:51.150 --> 02:57.070]  Well, I'm glad we're all assembled here tonight, one week after the shocking apocalypse began.
[02:57.690 --> 03:05.530]  And we have more to discuss, more ideas, more feedback, hopefully, from you folks.
[03:05.590 --> 03:09.270]  Speaking of feedback, we got so much good feedback from last week, Sean.
[03:09.270 --> 03:11.810]  So I'm really gratified to see that.
[03:11.910 --> 03:21.870]  And I hope that we're helpful in whatever way we can be, because, you know, you're going to need a place like WBAI in the years ahead.
[03:22.170 --> 03:23.690]  It's become evident.
[03:23.710 --> 03:28.530]  And I hope this is also evident to people why we don't give up on radio.
[03:29.210 --> 03:34.370]  A lot of people say, hey, why don't you just do a podcast and leave all that radio nonsense behind.
[03:34.690 --> 03:36.510]  Well, you know, it's not radio nonsense.
[03:36.710 --> 03:38.650]  It's vital.
[03:38.790 --> 03:45.810]  How many times do people simply tune the dial and come across this place, this bastion of sanity?
[03:45.810 --> 03:49.030]  Yeah, sometimes the bastion of insanity, I know that.
[03:49.170 --> 03:56.090]  But lots of times, lots of times, we have some really, really remarkable things to say.
[03:56.170 --> 04:02.210]  I was listening earlier to the news, the revived newscast that's here on WBAI every night at six.
[04:02.770 --> 04:11.990]  And it's just incredible to hear the kinds of things that's happening with this new administration that's being set up even as we speak.
[04:12.790 --> 04:18.910]  And, you know, we could fill hours just talking about all the things that are going on.
[04:18.950 --> 04:19.750]  The mainstream media.
[04:19.870 --> 04:21.870]  The mainstream media is calling it a knife fight.
[04:25.030 --> 04:27.530]  The selection of people.
[04:27.670 --> 04:29.450]  I mean, Chris Christie has been purged.
[04:29.630 --> 04:32.070]  Do you know what it means to purge Chris Christie?
[04:32.270 --> 04:33.530]  They have purged him.
[04:33.690 --> 04:34.150]  Why?
[04:34.570 --> 04:40.770]  Because Donald Trump's son-in-law, this Ashton Kutcher guy, or what's his name again?
[04:41.230 --> 04:41.470]  Kershner.
[04:41.630 --> 04:42.090]  You know what?
[04:42.590 --> 04:44.950]  I keep mixing him up with a guy from the 70s show.
[04:45.690 --> 04:47.130]  Yeah, that's... what's his name?
[04:48.130 --> 04:49.090]  Aaron Kershner.
[04:49.210 --> 04:49.490]  Jared.
[04:49.610 --> 04:50.310]  Jared Kershner.
[04:50.310 --> 04:51.090]  Jared Kershner.
[04:51.130 --> 04:53.030]  This guy has no political experience whatsoever.
[04:53.270 --> 04:56.710]  A sleazy business person that, you know, controls all this.
[04:56.930 --> 05:04.910]  His dad is super corrupt, was thrown in jail by Chris Christie, and now all of a sudden, Chris Christie is out.
[05:05.050 --> 05:06.750]  This is the kind of thing we have to look forward to.
[05:07.030 --> 05:07.510]  Revenge.
[05:07.890 --> 05:08.770]  Revenge politics.
[05:09.350 --> 05:10.110]  What do you think, Bernie?
[05:10.910 --> 05:12.690]  That's what it looks like.
[05:12.970 --> 05:18.270]  We'll know more as information filters out from the man in the high tower.
[05:18.570 --> 05:19.110]  Yes.
[05:19.570 --> 05:20.430]  Oh, boy.
[05:20.530 --> 05:23.290]  It's like living in a Stalinist regime already, you know?
[05:23.490 --> 05:24.430]  It's fascinating.
[05:24.430 --> 05:25.830]  It really is.
[05:27.370 --> 05:32.110]  But I just want to go over some of the letters that we got, because I do want to share this.
[05:33.250 --> 05:38.570]  Ken Wright's extremely interesting show is always on the subject of Jill Stein, who we talked about at length.
[05:38.910 --> 05:46.490]  She was obviously trying to get people to vote for her when she and Trump were less of a danger than Hillary, when she said Trump was less of a danger than Hillary.
[05:46.630 --> 05:49.350]  And anyway, what influence did the third parties have on the outcome of the election?
[05:49.350 --> 05:50.750]  Pretty close to zero, I suspect.
[05:50.990 --> 05:51.810]  And that is true.
[05:52.430 --> 05:53.370]  And that's unfortunate.
[05:53.970 --> 05:55.230]  Do you have the exact figures?
[05:55.410 --> 06:00.830]  I know it was something like zero for the Green Party or 1%, something really sad.
[06:01.050 --> 06:02.530]  It should be so much more than that.
[06:02.730 --> 06:09.950]  And the way to get around that is to bolster it during the local elections and to have more third parties as well.
[06:09.950 --> 06:18.330]  And I know the Libertarians got a bit more, I think maybe 3%, both short of the 5% necessary to get the funds that they wanted to get.
[06:20.230 --> 06:25.570]  Anyway, thanks, Ken, for your support and for your kind words.
[06:26.410 --> 06:29.290]  Lex writes, I really enjoyed yesterday's show, last week's show.
[06:29.330 --> 06:32.810]  You collectively made many good points and said a lot of things that were hard for a lot of people to express.
[06:33.270 --> 06:37.310]  I even played the show a second time for my wife, who was not interested in hacker culture at all.
[06:37.690 --> 06:46.490]  I don't have much to add other than the usual commitment to the many people who are in danger of being marginalized, depressed, or outright abused, and to vow to do what I can to help them.
[06:46.570 --> 06:48.670]  I just wanted to share my appreciation for your good work.
[06:48.730 --> 06:51.530]  And thank you, Lex, for your kind words as well.
[06:51.630 --> 06:57.490]  And you raise an interesting point because while your wife might not be interested in hacker culture, hacker culture is all around us.
[06:57.950 --> 07:00.590]  So many things have to do with the hacker mindset.
[07:00.810 --> 07:02.090]  And politics is no exception.
[07:02.190 --> 07:05.930]  There are a lot of people saying, they tell me this on Twitter.
[07:05.930 --> 07:07.570]  They tell me this in email.
[07:07.710 --> 07:09.090]  They tell me it to my face sometimes.
[07:09.510 --> 07:10.570]  Stop talking about this.
[07:10.690 --> 07:16.670]  Just go back to what you're supposed to be talking about, which is technical stuff and computers and phones.
[07:17.510 --> 07:24.390]  As if there's no relationship between technology and politics, between what's going on in D.C.
[07:24.450 --> 07:32.950]  and here in New York, and our future, our freedom of speech, encryption, the development of technology, the surveillance of people.
[07:33.150 --> 07:35.050]  These things are all tied together.
[07:35.050 --> 07:40.690]  The hacker culture has never played more of a role in politics than now.
[07:40.690 --> 07:44.530]  And I suspect we will be playing an increasing role in the future.
[07:44.790 --> 07:45.110]  Yeah.
[07:45.290 --> 07:54.690]  The lack of understanding or not being able to fathom that there's an intersection between these worlds and these parts of our world is...
[07:54.690 --> 07:55.670]  It's crazy.
[07:55.850 --> 08:18.510]  It's crazy not to bear witness to that and see the need for more discussion and furthering of the dialogue with people making informed choices about how these systems and tech that are so ubiquitous, how they affect us, how they affect us in real, you know,
[08:18.590 --> 08:19.330]  fundamental ways.
[08:20.070 --> 08:29.810]  Brian writes, You can cast the blame on Jill and the Greens or anything else, but it was Hillary's refusal to actually listen to progressives, millennials, and real working class people that lost this election.
[08:30.150 --> 08:37.550]  Misplace the blame all you want, but Hillary's drive to marginalize and silence Bernie's support base of actual progressives lost her those key states.
[08:37.550 --> 08:39.270]  You have no one to blame except Hillary.
[08:39.690 --> 08:41.470]  Well, Brian, yeah, you can say that if you want.
[08:41.610 --> 08:47.530]  But to say you have no one to blame but one person or one group of people, I think that that misses it.
[08:47.630 --> 08:55.370]  I think we have lots of people to blame, and we have to take some of the blame ourselves for not working hard enough to prevent this apocalypse from coming upon us.
[08:55.790 --> 08:58.130]  So, yeah, Hillary certainly is to blame.
[08:58.190 --> 08:59.390]  The DNC is certainly to blame.
[08:59.390 --> 09:14.390]  But it's not so much focusing on who to blame, but focusing on what do we do now and what kinds of creative, imaginative solutions can we as hackers come up with, we as freedom fighters or individualists.
[09:15.490 --> 09:15.930]  Patriots.
[09:16.170 --> 09:16.610]  Patriots.
[09:16.730 --> 09:17.650]  Call us what you will.
[09:17.850 --> 09:19.570]  There's all kinds of things people like to call us.
[09:20.610 --> 09:22.470]  We had this note from Ed.
[09:22.570 --> 09:23.470]  Wednesday's show was great.
[09:23.470 --> 09:26.930]  I'm so effing thankful to have this hour each week to listen to you guys.
[09:26.930 --> 09:29.950]  And in this new scary time, I really need it.
[09:30.030 --> 09:31.730]  And I assume he's not referring to 8 p.m.
[09:31.830 --> 09:33.030]  Because we used to be on at 7 p.m.
[09:33.030 --> 09:33.890]  It is a scary time.
[09:34.010 --> 09:36.070]  It's definitely scarier than 7 p.m.
[09:36.070 --> 09:43.630]  But I think he's referring to the period following 2017 when a certain guy is going to take office.
[09:44.670 --> 09:45.050]  Supposedly.
[09:45.150 --> 09:47.910]  And we're going to talk about what some people are saying about that.
[09:48.590 --> 09:50.970]  We also got some Twitter feedback.
[09:50.990 --> 09:54.230]  And you can feedback to us at at sign 2600.
[09:55.390 --> 09:58.350]  And you can write to us, O-T-H at 2600 dot com.
[09:58.450 --> 09:59.390]  It was very much needed.
[09:59.590 --> 09:59.810]  Thanks.
[10:00.030 --> 10:01.990]  It's been way too long since I've listened, live or otherwise.
[10:02.170 --> 10:04.670]  Thank you for reminding me that not everyone is insane.
[10:05.390 --> 10:07.470]  I just came here to thank you and the Off the Hook gang.
[10:07.590 --> 10:10.610]  I'm devastated, but it really helps to hear a measured response to this mess.
[10:10.690 --> 10:15.210]  Well, hopefully we can continue to do that in the months, years.
[10:15.410 --> 10:16.030]  God help us.
[10:16.130 --> 10:18.930]  Whatever is ahead, we will be here for you.
[10:18.930 --> 10:20.530]  WBAI will be here for you.
[10:20.650 --> 10:25.370]  And of course, in order to do that, hopefully you guys are here for us to keep us on the air.
[10:25.910 --> 10:27.730]  Alex, we haven't talked to you since...
[10:30.390 --> 10:36.190]  I don't even know how to describe it, since the darkening or whatever we want to call this period of history.
[10:36.310 --> 10:40.690]  Well, it is, I think, both literally and figuratively darker these days.
[10:40.890 --> 10:44.310]  And I'm not talking just about Daylight Savings Time, of course.
[10:44.770 --> 10:45.710]  No, that was sad too.
[10:46.150 --> 10:47.650]  It is very sad, I think.
[10:48.670 --> 10:53.010]  Look, if you want my opinion on this, I don't really want to play the blame game.
[10:53.150 --> 10:55.770]  I think there are... I don't have enough fingers to point, frankly.
[10:56.050 --> 10:57.650]  You know, if we want to play the blame game.
[10:57.810 --> 10:59.050]  But it is a terrifying time.
[10:59.230 --> 11:02.030]  I think you're absolutely right that we need to focus on what to do next.
[11:02.030 --> 11:05.010]  We need to regroup, reorganize, and redouble our efforts here.
[11:05.370 --> 11:09.890]  I think the technical community really needs to come together because there are so many important issues.
[11:09.890 --> 11:17.790]  You look at the last iOS update of Apple as indicative of where this culture is going.
[11:18.470 --> 11:19.150]  Excuse me.
[11:19.230 --> 11:25.090]  And I think that, you know, the greatest thing to come out of that update was the ability to finger paint text messages to each other.
[11:25.470 --> 11:28.670]  You know, this is not what we should be focusing on as technologists.
[11:28.670 --> 11:30.950]  We need to be focusing on privacy enhancements.
[11:31.110 --> 11:32.850]  We need to be focusing on encryption.
[11:32.850 --> 11:35.910]  We need to be fighting the regulation of encryption at the state level.
[11:39.810 --> 11:44.990]  Business, quite frankly, when we make this disgusting patchwork mess of laws.
[11:45.730 --> 11:47.150]  It's going to affect all of us.
[11:47.250 --> 11:54.870]  And I think we need to really focus on what technology means to us as a populace, as hackers, as people, as Kyle had noted, as patriots.
[11:55.830 --> 12:01.270]  And stop focusing on silly, irrelevant things like finger painting, obscene text messages to each other.
[12:01.670 --> 12:03.070]  It's the first I've heard of that.
[12:03.210 --> 12:04.770]  And I'm glad it's the first I've heard of that.
[12:04.830 --> 12:05.210]  I'll send you one.
[12:05.270 --> 12:06.630]  I hope it's the last I hear of that.
[12:06.630 --> 12:12.710]  But you mentioned encryption, and I have a story here that is about ProtonMail.
[12:12.990 --> 12:17.930]  They issued a statement right after the election, or shortly after the election.
[12:18.030 --> 12:21.050]  ProtonMail follows the Swiss policy of neutrality.
[12:21.050 --> 12:23.770]  We do not take any position for or against Trump.
[12:23.770 --> 12:26.610]  That was from the Swiss company's CEO.
[12:27.150 --> 12:32.390]  And then they revealed that new user signups immediately doubled following Trump's election victory.
[12:32.410 --> 12:34.870]  So that should tell you something right there.
[12:34.870 --> 12:42.750]  ProtonMail has published figures showing that as soon as the election results rolled in, the public began to seek out privacy-focused services such as its own.
[12:43.270 --> 12:54.950]  Now, CEO Andy Yen said that in communicating with these new users, the company found people apprehensive about the decisions that President Trump might take and what they would mean considering the surveillance activities of the National Security Agency.
[12:54.950 --> 13:04.050]  And that's something to keep in mind, that Trump is going to have full control over this surveillance apparatus that has been assembled over the last few years.
[13:04.230 --> 13:05.270]  That is frightening.
[13:05.530 --> 13:07.870]  When you see how unhinged he is...
[13:07.870 --> 13:13.350]  I mean, just look at today, where he basically lashed out at the New York Times again.
[13:13.750 --> 13:22.090]  You know, the president-elect doesn't have anything more important to do than to lash out at reporters and try to run from them too, which is unprecedented as well.
[13:24.950 --> 13:30.850]  He has real power and starts to realize, hey, I can hurt people severely who criticize me.
[13:30.850 --> 13:32.170]  I can spy on them.
[13:32.230 --> 13:33.550]  I can do all kinds of things.
[13:34.070 --> 13:35.670]  It's going to be terrifying.
[13:36.010 --> 13:37.810]  I think you're absolutely right.
[13:38.830 --> 13:49.750]  You know, SC Magazine ran an article on the hypothetical information security policies of both Clinton and Trump that I contributed a small part to a couple of weeks ago.
[13:49.750 --> 13:53.310]  It was run by the author, Jeremy Seth Davis.
[13:54.110 --> 14:02.210]  And quite frankly, when I gave quotes to that article, I had no concept whatsoever that Trump could actually quite possibly become the president of the United States.
[14:02.210 --> 14:03.150]  So this is partially your fault too?
[14:04.130 --> 14:04.610]  Maybe.
[14:04.750 --> 14:05.830]  We all have to take responsibilities.
[14:06.350 --> 14:07.950]  Point a finger at me as well.
[14:08.110 --> 14:13.750]  But my predictions as to what Trump's security policies would be were fairly draconian.
[14:13.750 --> 14:15.690]  And I think that may, in fact, be played out.
[14:16.010 --> 14:28.670]  One place where we see a lot of fear, and this goes back to your ProtonMail point, is that, you know, I hate to bring up Facebook, but there is actually a very interesting Facebook group to which I was added recently, which is called Liberal, I think,
[14:28.830 --> 14:30.790]  Liberal Lawyers of the Left or something like that.
[14:30.850 --> 14:31.610]  Oh, you're dead now.
[14:31.610 --> 14:32.070]  I know.
[14:32.190 --> 14:32.730]  It really is.
[14:32.910 --> 14:42.550]  But there was an interesting thread that was posted on this a couple of days ago about lawyers who are interested in learning about information security and how to keep their data private, how to help their clients.
[14:43.090 --> 14:48.430]  And we had responded to this thread because this is actually something that we do in our law firm once a week.
[14:48.490 --> 14:50.850]  And this is something that people should think about joining.
[14:50.910 --> 14:56.330]  And this is one of the efforts, I think, that we can all do collectively around the country to help increase our privacy.
[14:56.370 --> 15:09.230]  But we started something about seven months ago called the Legal Privilege Protection Project, which is all about teaching lawyers or teaching activists or teaching reporters how to secure their data, how to keep it free from surveillance, using things like ProtonMail,
[15:09.290 --> 15:11.890]  but also using PGP, regular types of encryption.
[15:12.550 --> 15:14.730]  You know, personal security, operational security.
[15:14.910 --> 15:16.210]  And we meet once a month at our office.
[15:16.430 --> 15:27.270]  There's such a huge amount of interest in this right now, all following the election, because we do not know what the ramifications of Trump being in control of the national security apparatus is going to be.
[15:28.730 --> 15:35.590]  If people are interested in joining our group, I'll tell you, you can email me at alex at blackstone-law.com.
[15:35.850 --> 15:44.410]  We meet once a month at our office on 33rd and Madison, and we'd be happy to have anybody join us, you know, either Skype, FaceTime, or in person.
[15:44.410 --> 15:50.350]  But this is kind of the effort and the sort of community organizing that I think needs to happen and needs to happen now.
[15:51.030 --> 15:51.290]  Absolutely.
[15:51.450 --> 15:55.810]  I hope you have a big office, because I think a lot of people might be taking an interest in this.
[15:56.170 --> 15:56.750]  Quite possibly.
[15:56.850 --> 16:06.610]  But you mentioned Facebook, and Facebook has gotten itself into the center of what's going on, and not in a very good way.
[16:06.610 --> 16:14.630]  It turns out there's a lot of what they call fake news that has been permeating throughout the last few weeks.
[16:15.050 --> 16:16.610]  This is unbelievable.
[16:16.790 --> 16:20.810]  I mean, I'm on Facebook, but I never actually communicate on Facebook.
[16:20.950 --> 16:23.810]  There's all these people that are angry at me because I don't answer them on Facebook.
[16:23.910 --> 16:26.170]  I don't answer you because I'm not on the damn thing.
[16:26.270 --> 16:27.030]  I have an ID.
[16:27.170 --> 16:27.690]  Yes, great.
[16:28.650 --> 16:30.150]  But, you know, I don't live on it.
[16:30.230 --> 16:30.830]  A lot of people do.
[16:30.970 --> 16:32.910]  We have a Facebook 2600 group.
[16:33.030 --> 16:33.490]  God bless them.
[16:33.570 --> 16:34.790]  I think we have two, maybe even three.
[16:37.210 --> 16:41.770]  Real life takes up enough time, and there are so many other things that we have to do.
[16:41.950 --> 16:44.230]  So there are people that live on Facebook.
[16:44.230 --> 16:45.250]  I recognize that.
[16:45.950 --> 16:50.050]  But there are severe problems, and we need to come to terms with them.
[16:50.210 --> 16:54.290]  Now, according to what I've been reading, this actually comes from BuzzFeed.
[16:54.870 --> 16:56.970]  In the final three months of the U.S.
[16:57.070 --> 17:11.010]  presidential campaign, the top-performing fake election news stories on Facebook generated more engagement, and that's more reading, than the top stories from major news outlets, such as, you might have heard of them, the New York Times, Washington Post,
[17:11.310 --> 17:12.930]  Huffington Post, NBC News.
[17:13.250 --> 17:28.830]  Now, during those critical months, the last three months of the campaign, 20 top-performing false election stories from hoax sites and hyper-partisan blogs generated 8,711,000 shares, reactions, and comments on Facebook.
[17:28.830 --> 17:43.470]  And within that same exact time period, the 20 best-performing election stories, real election stories, from 19 major news websites, generated a total of 7,367,000 shares, more than a million less.
[17:44.170 --> 17:45.470]  Reactions, comments, all that.
[17:45.910 --> 17:52.510]  Now, just to give you an idea of what we're talking about here, as far as fake election stories, here are some...
[17:52.510 --> 17:57.330]  Or maybe I should just read a fake one and a real one, and we can try and decide which is which.
[17:58.870 --> 18:04.250]  Pope Francis shocks world, endorses Donald Trump for president, releases statement.
[18:05.070 --> 18:11.090]  Yeah, that was a fake story, and that got 960,000 shares and reactions and comments or whatever.
[18:12.370 --> 18:17.810]  WikiLeaks confirms Hillary sold weapons to ISIS, then drops another bombshell, breaking news.
[18:17.930 --> 18:18.990]  You know, I've seen some of these.
[18:19.050 --> 18:26.350]  Some of these have been forwarded to me in email, so they leave Facebook and people spread them around as real news.
[18:26.350 --> 18:33.890]  We all get this from our parents, from our uncles, various people all around the world who actually believe this crap because they see it on Facebook.
[18:33.890 --> 18:34.790]  It's got to be true.
[18:34.890 --> 18:37.230]  But what's really true is that you're in a bubble.
[18:37.230 --> 18:48.610]  You're in your little Facebook bubble, and you only get news from the people you agree with, and you kind of create your own news and then reinforce it and then start spreading it around to other people who might agree with your particular opinions.
[18:48.610 --> 18:52.750]  And in a very Orwellian style, it becomes the truth.
[18:53.130 --> 18:53.870]  It does.
[18:54.030 --> 18:57.930]  It's the echo chamber effect, as the pundits like to call it.
[18:58.050 --> 19:03.650]  When in reality, it's about as worthwhile as, like, your average meme or, like, cat video.
[19:03.770 --> 19:08.210]  Because if it's not true, why does it deserve that many engagements?
[19:08.470 --> 19:09.210]  I would say no.
[19:09.690 --> 19:09.910]  Yes.
[19:10.050 --> 19:10.530]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[19:11.830 --> 19:20.550]  I'd like to know, who is creating all this fake news, which is more popular than real news, on Facebook and other media, other sites?
[19:20.750 --> 19:24.190]  Well, I think one of the people is the chief strategist of Donald Trump right now.
[19:24.350 --> 19:24.570]  Okay.
[19:24.710 --> 19:24.990]  Okay.
[19:24.990 --> 19:26.630]  Well, we're getting there.
[19:26.790 --> 19:29.090]  Who's creating it, and to what end?
[19:29.210 --> 19:30.650]  Is it to generate ad revenue?
[19:30.930 --> 19:36.490]  Is it to... Google is cutting off ad revenue to some of these fake news sites.
[19:36.630 --> 19:39.910]  As a reaction, a direct reaction to what has just happened.
[19:39.910 --> 19:46.830]  And yes, Google and Facebook are both acting to curtail all this fake news from getting out, because fake news basically elected a president.
[19:46.970 --> 19:48.750]  I think we all realize that now.
[19:49.830 --> 19:56.150]  Yeah, and ads have their own problematic goings-on as of late.
[19:56.210 --> 20:16.070]  I'm talking about malicious software being run through ad adware networks and so on, targeting or not including specific demographics, as well as a myriad of other annoyances that we all are aware of.
[20:18.650 --> 20:19.670]  Go ahead, Alex.
[20:19.850 --> 20:25.790]  Well, to go back to this concept of the truth, too, and where is that with respect to these articles?
[20:25.790 --> 20:33.350]  I think they're so popular in one respect, because people see these headlines, and they click on them because they want them to be true.
[20:33.570 --> 20:37.710]  They see this, and they desire it, so they click on it.
[20:37.970 --> 20:45.550]  And in clicking on it, there is some kind of bizarre psychological satisfaction in seeing a story that you really wish to be true.
[20:45.550 --> 20:55.830]  And even though I think if you're a rational-thinking human being, you should know that this is complete nonsense and BS, you'll still forward it because you want it to be true.
[20:55.830 --> 21:03.650]  And I think that there is the unintentional but foreseeable consequence of generating a lot of ad revenue from this as well, and that's very, very dangerous.
[21:03.850 --> 21:14.990]  But it goes back to almost a philosophical concept about truth, because, you know, you go back to William James, and he believed that truth was really a... had a cash value.
[21:15.450 --> 21:23.690]  And, you know, for instance, if you believed in God, you know, whether or not that was true, if it made a measurable difference to you, then it was a true proposition and had a cash value.
[21:23.890 --> 21:32.130]  So even these fake news stories have some kind of truth value to them in a bizarre philosophical sense, and I think it's extremely dangerous.
[21:32.150 --> 21:33.290]  And they're comforting to people.
[21:33.890 --> 21:42.770]  Like you said, they're reading what they want to read, they're believing what they want to believe, and they're creating their own truth, and it's being reinforced by other people who also agree with them.
[21:42.910 --> 21:50.390]  Now, the two I read you so far are from, I guess you call them fake news sites, called Ending the Fed, The Political Insider.
[21:50.450 --> 21:51.850]  Hey, that sounds pretty real to me.
[21:51.930 --> 21:53.030]  The Political Insider, really?
[21:53.050 --> 21:53.570]  That's fake.
[21:54.270 --> 21:55.150]  How about this?
[21:55.250 --> 21:56.390]  Just read the law.
[21:56.510 --> 21:59.150]  Hillary is disqualified from holding any federal office.
[21:59.350 --> 22:02.850]  That got bandied about over 700,000 times, at least on Facebook.
[22:03.230 --> 22:04.030]  Or this one.
[22:04.130 --> 22:04.590]  It's over.
[22:04.710 --> 22:08.570]  Hillary's ISIS email just leaked, and it's worse than anyone could have imagined.
[22:08.830 --> 22:10.270]  Are you seeing a trend here?
[22:10.370 --> 22:18.250]  They all seem to be anti-Hillary, which is kind of bizarre, and speaks to what the motivation is here.
[22:18.430 --> 22:23.370]  Well, you know, to go back to what Bernie had mentioned, or rather questioned, which is who's writing this.
[22:23.990 --> 22:38.090]  I think if somebody were to come forward and volunteer some time, who is an expert in linguistic forensics, we may be able to actually figure out if there are a number of parties, or rather a small number of parties who are behind this.
[22:38.510 --> 22:43.350]  You know, linguistic forensics is a very popular and hot topic these days in the law.
[22:43.550 --> 22:48.350]  I would love to see somebody come forward and analyze these from that forensic standpoint.
[22:48.590 --> 22:52.590]  I'm sure you'd find a lot of similarities, but I think you'd also find there's a lot of people doing this.
[22:52.590 --> 22:53.530]  I mean, we have Breitbart News.
[22:53.790 --> 22:55.430]  We know who those people are.
[22:55.550 --> 22:56.970]  We're going to know them very well.
[22:57.490 --> 23:01.250]  We can look at ending the Fed and see who those people are, the political insider.
[23:01.410 --> 23:02.250]  But here's one.
[23:02.610 --> 23:04.650]  Here's another one that is kind of interesting.
[23:04.770 --> 23:05.870]  It comes from the Denver Guardian.
[23:06.390 --> 23:08.410]  Denver Guardian, a respected newspaper.
[23:08.570 --> 23:13.410]  FBI agents suspected in Hillary email leaks found dead in apparent murder-suicide.
[23:13.830 --> 23:17.950]  How does something like that make it into a well-respected newspaper like the Denver Guardian?
[23:18.150 --> 23:18.910]  I'll tell you.
[23:19.050 --> 23:21.110]  There's no such newspaper as a Denver Guardian.
[23:21.110 --> 23:22.530]  It looks like a newspaper.
[23:22.890 --> 23:23.690]  People see this.
[23:23.690 --> 23:24.870]  They believe it.
[23:25.150 --> 23:27.510]  And it gets spread around as gospel.
[23:27.750 --> 23:28.750]  It's fascinating.
[23:29.050 --> 23:30.070]  I thought we were smarter.
[23:30.610 --> 23:31.130]  Yes, Bernie?
[23:32.490 --> 23:33.330]  It's almost...
[23:33.330 --> 23:35.490]  As people spread this stuff around, it's like clickbait.
[23:35.710 --> 23:36.110]  You can't...
[23:36.670 --> 23:38.350]  Some people just cannot click on this stuff.
[23:38.450 --> 23:39.290]  And like, is this true?
[23:39.510 --> 23:41.330]  And then you think it is, and you want to share it.
[23:41.350 --> 23:41.890]  It's like, look at this.
[23:41.890 --> 23:46.070]  But it's almost like perception becomes reality.
[23:46.310 --> 23:51.550]  The more people believe something, the more it just seems to become reality.
[23:51.550 --> 23:54.130]  And people act as if it were a fact.
[23:54.250 --> 23:55.910]  And that is really scaring me.
[23:56.530 --> 23:57.390]  Oh, absolutely.
[23:57.590 --> 23:57.830]  Absolutely.
[23:58.290 --> 24:05.210]  And just to sort of contrast this, here are the top five mainstream election stories.
[24:06.070 --> 24:08.670]  Trump's history of corruption is mind-boggling.
[24:08.670 --> 24:10.790]  So why is Clinton supposedly the corrupt one?
[24:11.170 --> 24:12.430]  That was not a fake story.
[24:12.510 --> 24:13.330]  That was a real story.
[24:13.410 --> 24:16.490]  Didn't get as much play as some of the fake ones, though.
[24:16.870 --> 24:19.130]  Or stop pretending you don't know why people hate Hillary Clinton.
[24:19.210 --> 24:20.050]  That was another real story.
[24:20.430 --> 24:23.590]  Melania Trump's girl-on-girl photos from racy shoot revealed.
[24:23.970 --> 24:25.390]  Okay, that was from the New York Post.
[24:25.630 --> 24:27.750]  And unfortunately, that's a real newspaper.
[24:28.510 --> 24:30.370]  Ford fact-checks Trump.
[24:30.510 --> 24:31.810]  We will be here forever.
[24:32.650 --> 24:33.990]  And I ran the CIA.
[24:33.990 --> 24:36.470]  Now I'm endorsing Hillary Clinton from the New York Times.
[24:36.690 --> 24:39.190]  Only got about 300,000 hits on Facebook.
[24:39.950 --> 24:42.470]  So sometimes people don't really want to see the truth.
[24:43.010 --> 24:44.230]  Well, it's too complicated.
[24:44.610 --> 24:48.210]  I mean, there's a lot of words on those pages, I would presume, if you click on the New York Times.
[24:48.470 --> 24:49.710]  Who wants to read all of that?
[24:49.870 --> 25:01.930]  And as you can see, you know, the people that Donald Trump was targeting, literally with his two-minute hates, pointing the crowd, look at the people in the cage, look at the people behind that fence.
[25:02.170 --> 25:02.830]  That's the media.
[25:02.990 --> 25:03.470]  They're the enemy.
[25:03.990 --> 25:06.710]  And the abuse that the media was subjected to.
[25:07.290 --> 25:08.070]  Think about it.
[25:08.150 --> 25:09.730]  Think about how all this relates.
[25:09.810 --> 25:13.630]  He wasn't pointing at the fake news people because they don't show up at these things.
[25:13.770 --> 25:18.970]  He was pointing at the actual media, the people that run around trying to report the news.
[25:19.150 --> 25:19.890]  Sometimes they get it right.
[25:20.010 --> 25:20.830]  Sometimes they get it wrong.
[25:20.970 --> 25:23.710]  But they are necessary, essential.
[25:23.710 --> 25:29.630]  I think we're about to find out how essential they are in this upcoming era where they're going to be the enemy.
[25:30.910 --> 25:31.470]  Indeed.
[25:31.770 --> 25:32.130]  Yeah.
[25:32.330 --> 25:59.810]  It's shameful that we would have to defend the journalistic enterprise and the credibility of it be questioned by basically people just starting websites and creating ads or whatever it is to further their agenda when the institution's really good journalistic entities are actually in short supply these days with the direction consolidation has gone.
[25:59.810 --> 26:16.250]  So we have to really think carefully about the kind of electorate, the kind of people, the citizenry we're going to inform and are we going to just inform people with lies because it serves us in one moment versus the long term?
[26:16.250 --> 26:26.810]  Because are people going to then gravitate when it doesn't serve you towards these same messages when they're going in a different direction and they aren't serving you?
[26:27.010 --> 26:32.710]  That's not altogether a very good prospect for anyone interested in this in the first place.
[26:32.910 --> 26:33.130]  Yeah.
[26:33.390 --> 26:34.710]  I completely agree, Kyle.
[26:34.890 --> 26:45.250]  And I think a fundamental problem here is that we have a lack of tolerance of other viewpoints on both sides of the political spectrum.
[26:45.250 --> 26:52.350]  There's a lot of polarization here, and I think this is why, you know, we have candidates that act in such outrageous ways.
[26:52.350 --> 27:13.910]  If you go back to the nomination of Merrick Garland, you know, the fact that his appointment to the Supreme Court or Senate confirmation hearings have been continually stalled has nothing to do with the Constitution and had everything to do with the election because there are so few people whose votes actually matter in the sense that,
[27:13.990 --> 27:27.470]  you know, they're not from swing states or their minds have already been up because the political process is so polarizing that what candidates need to do these days is really cater to their base and the basis of the base.
[27:27.630 --> 27:34.190]  And when you cater to the basis of the base or the lowest common denominator of the base, you ensure that people come out to vote.
[27:34.190 --> 27:37.190]  And you only can do that by acting so outrageously.
[27:37.330 --> 27:42.070]  And when the candidates and politicians act so outrageously, it further polarizes the nation.
[27:42.070 --> 27:47.350]  We become so intolerant of other people's viewpoints that it becomes extremely dangerous.
[27:47.570 --> 27:50.510]  Then we have these social media echo chambers that reinforce it.
[27:50.750 --> 27:52.410]  Fake news gets spread around.
[27:52.530 --> 27:55.250]  It becomes, as Trump would say, a disaster.
[27:56.770 --> 27:59.890]  And we lose what this country is all about.
[28:00.090 --> 28:12.950]  This country was founded not on the basis of one political party over the next, but on the basis of the First Amendment, the freedom of assembly, the freedom to peaceably assemble, the freedom of religion, the freedom to speak.
[28:12.970 --> 28:28.270]  And all of that implies a certain level of tolerance of each other and understanding, regardless of whether you're a Republican, regardless of whether you voted for Trump or Bernie or Jill Stein or Gary Johnson, it doesn't friggin' matter.
[28:28.490 --> 28:28.790]  Okay?
[28:28.790 --> 28:35.330]  We should hear each other out and be tolerant before we, you know, we shouldn't be so alienating.
[28:35.330 --> 28:45.370]  And if, I guarantee, I do believe that we should embrace each other's diversity, but before that, I've always believed that we should at least respect each other's different viewpoints.
[28:46.330 --> 28:49.730]  Even if they consume lousy sources of information.
[28:49.910 --> 28:56.710]  Even if they consume it, because only then will we be able to have a dialogue, you know, a rational dialogue with these people, I hope.
[28:56.950 --> 28:57.990]  Yeah, some kind of dialogue.
[28:58.330 --> 29:04.390]  Well, I'd like to play another opinion, an opinion that I respect quite a lot.
[29:04.390 --> 29:12.450]  from someone who was reacting to the election of Donald Trump last Tuesday.
[29:13.430 --> 29:16.590]  This comes from our friend Yoko Ono.
[29:16.790 --> 29:17.990]  This is what she had to say.
[29:38.540 --> 29:39.300]  Yeah.
[29:40.420 --> 29:43.280]  I don't think, I don't think I could say it better.
[29:43.680 --> 29:44.980]  And she's almost 84.
[29:45.480 --> 29:46.020]  God bless her.
[29:46.120 --> 29:46.860]  She's amazing.
[29:47.140 --> 29:51.780]  And that actually is her reaction to Donald Trump being elected.
[29:52.420 --> 29:53.300]  Yoko Ono, thank you.
[29:53.420 --> 29:53.980]  Thank you for that.
[29:53.980 --> 29:55.700]  And please don't, don't ever stop.
[29:57.840 --> 30:01.580]  A lot of people have been trying to express themselves as eloquently.
[30:01.840 --> 30:03.520]  I don't think many people came close.
[30:03.520 --> 30:04.180]  No, no.
[30:04.180 --> 30:05.660]  That was, that was pretty succinct.
[30:06.860 --> 30:15.920]  So, um, we've had a lot of time to think, to, to reflect on, um, on what all this means, what it, um, what it will lead to.
[30:16.280 --> 30:22.340]  And I keep coming back to how we think as hackers, how, um, our minds work.
[30:22.920 --> 30:30.040]  And a lot of people ask us that, uh, when they, when they interview us or when they, uh, send us the email, how do I learn how to hack?
[30:30.040 --> 30:32.120]  And the answer, of course, is that you don't learn how to hack.
[30:32.120 --> 30:39.780]  You just keep asking a lot of questions and you keep trying things and thinking different ways to, um, to, to get a result.
[30:40.520 --> 30:49.180]  I think back at, at, at, at many of the things, many of the, um, um, the problems that I was presented with that were considered impossible, barriers.
[30:49.500 --> 30:57.040]  Uh, one of the first, um, when we've probably all experienced this is, um, a rotary telephone and somebody doesn't want you to make phone calls.
[30:57.140 --> 30:59.780]  So they put a lock, they slap a lock on the, uh, on the phone.
[30:59.780 --> 31:06.080]  And I don't know how many people even know how rotary phones work anymore, but a lock on the, uh, where you put your finger.
[31:06.760 --> 31:09.020]  Yeah, the dial, you can't, you can't turn the dial.
[31:09.140 --> 31:16.540]  So you can't make a phone call until you figure out that, um, uh, the switch hook is doing the same thing that the dial is doing.
[31:16.700 --> 31:17.320]  It's flashing.
[31:18.040 --> 31:23.220]  And as a kid, when I figured that out, all of a sudden that lock was no longer a lock.
[31:24.200 --> 31:31.820]  And there are an infinite number of examples of, of, of ways, uh, they might involve social engineering.
[31:32.080 --> 31:36.180]  Uh, they might involve, uh, looking at computer code.
[31:36.340 --> 31:41.060]  And even if you don't understand the computer code, and this has happened to me because I'm not a programmer.
[31:41.420 --> 31:58.620]  Um, you simply route around the computer code that you don't understand and save that for another day and just get to the part that you need to get to, uh, there are all kinds of, of, of ways of making something happen that don't necessarily follow the original rules.
[32:00.200 --> 32:15.400]  Now, with this election that just took place, with this, um, um, scenario that we're now facing, a lot of people have started talking about the, um, the way the political, um, uh, scene is set up here, specifically the Electoral College.
[32:15.760 --> 32:28.460]  Um, we are facing, for the first time ever in our history, a really, really large difference between the popular vote and the Electoral College.
[32:28.540 --> 32:31.000]  Now, this happened fairly recently, back in 2000.
[32:31.000 --> 32:38.560]  If you recall, Al Gore won the popular vote, but, uh, lost the Electoral College after a month of, um, back and forth.
[32:39.180 --> 32:46.060]  He lost it by about 500,000 votes, not an insignificant number, but, um, that was the amount.
[32:46.240 --> 32:54.740]  And what the estimates are right now with Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump is that she will wind up with over 2 million more votes.
[32:55.740 --> 32:57.320]  And that is simply staggering.
[32:57.460 --> 33:03.600]  It's happened a few times in the past, but obviously all the times back in the 1800s were much, much less of a difference.
[33:04.120 --> 33:07.360]  Uh, and this is a really, really big difference.
[33:07.360 --> 33:12.620]  Now, there are people who, um, are, are, are saying that there, there is hope yet.
[33:13.220 --> 33:18.920]  On December 19th, the electors are going to, um, uh, cast their votes.
[33:19.720 --> 33:22.460]  Now, of course, we're faced with this all the time.
[33:22.620 --> 33:25.480]  And a lot of the people who are demonstrating on the streets are faced with this constantly.
[33:26.040 --> 33:28.060]  People saying, oh, you're a bunch of crybabies.
[33:28.160 --> 33:30.060]  You should just shut up already and deal with it.
[33:30.200 --> 33:30.780]  Move on.
[33:31.060 --> 33:34.400]  You ever notice the people that tell you to move on are the ones telling you to stay put?
[33:34.920 --> 33:37.920]  That's really what it, uh, boils down to a lot of the time.
[33:38.460 --> 33:56.560]  Um, so yeah, you know, it's most definitely an uphill battle and I don't think it's going to work myself, but, um, it doesn't mean that people shouldn't try and convince these electors that are going to cast their vote on December 19th to cast their vote in a different way.
[33:56.560 --> 34:03.940]  Now, you might say, well, wait a minute, Emmanuel, first of all, we all agreed that this was the system to which I say, I never agreed to it.
[34:04.080 --> 34:06.320]  No one ever asked me my opinion on the Electoral College.
[34:06.480 --> 34:11.080]  It's just the system that is, the system that always has been, and the system that always will be.
[34:11.580 --> 34:13.780]  And we are powerless to change it.
[34:14.000 --> 34:16.040]  That, to me, is offensive right there.
[34:16.360 --> 34:25.760]  Because the only way you can change the Electoral College system is to get a referendum passed, uh, to change the Constitution, all right?
[34:25.880 --> 34:28.860]  And, you know, people have done this before, but, uh, it's a pretty big deal.
[34:28.860 --> 34:29.800]  We haven't done it in a while.
[34:30.240 --> 34:37.900]  Uh, you need two-thirds of the House of Representatives, you need two-thirds of the Senate, and then once you have that, you have to send it to the states.
[34:38.000 --> 34:40.100]  Believe it or not, the president does not sign this.
[34:40.340 --> 34:46.620]  It does not sign constitutional amendments, but it goes to the states and you have to get three-quarters of the states to agree.
[34:47.240 --> 34:51.700]  And you have to do all this within seven years or you go right back to the beginning.
[34:51.900 --> 34:54.140]  And this has been tried literally hundreds of times.
[34:54.640 --> 34:55.300]  Literally hundreds of times.
[34:55.580 --> 34:59.780]  Today, uh, Barbara Boxer tried again, started, uh, started the wheels in motion.
[34:59.960 --> 35:08.720]  Okay, you know, give it a shot, but it's a tremendous hurdle that has been, um, placed in front of us that make many of us say, yeah, this is impossible.
[35:09.040 --> 35:09.860]  What are you going to do?
[35:09.980 --> 35:10.520]  These are the rules.
[35:10.640 --> 35:11.320]  We all agreed to them.
[35:12.880 --> 35:13.920]  Well, you know what?
[35:14.040 --> 35:17.260]  Another part of the rules say that the electors can vote for whoever they wish.
[35:17.740 --> 35:21.220]  They don't have to vote the way that you think they're going to vote.
[35:21.760 --> 35:22.620]  Crazy, isn't it?
[35:22.700 --> 35:23.640]  What a crazy system.
[35:23.880 --> 35:25.800]  Now we're all seeing how crazy it is.
[35:25.880 --> 35:27.020]  But guess what, folks?
[35:27.320 --> 35:28.840]  Those are the rules you agreed to.
[35:29.120 --> 35:34.760]  So on December 19th, all the electors can say, hey, this guy, Donald Trump, is out of his mind.
[35:34.960 --> 35:36.180]  We can't vote for him.
[35:36.680 --> 35:38.280]  We vote for anybody else.
[35:38.500 --> 35:40.380]  You know, vote for Alec Baldwin instead.
[35:40.700 --> 35:42.360]  They can do whatever they want.
[35:42.640 --> 35:43.760]  They can do that.
[35:43.980 --> 35:45.140]  It's part of the rules.
[35:45.300 --> 35:46.100]  You think that's crazy?
[35:46.280 --> 35:47.260]  You think those rules are crazy?
[35:47.260 --> 35:48.780]  Okay, we're all in agreement now.
[35:49.280 --> 35:52.900]  You know, Donald Trump said the rules are crazy in, I think, 2012.
[35:53.540 --> 35:56.960]  Now, of course, he's saying the rules aren't crazy because they got him into power.
[35:57.100 --> 36:00.640]  But he also says something interesting yesterday, and everything he says is via Twitter.
[36:00.820 --> 36:11.420]  He said that if we didn't have electoral college, I would have won anyway because I simply would have strategized, you know, I would have campaigned differently in different states, and I would have won the popular vote.
[36:11.420 --> 36:16.100]  But to me, that's saying it's not going to hurt anybody if we change the system.
[36:16.840 --> 36:17.980]  So, yeah.
[36:18.260 --> 36:19.020]  Are we in agreement?
[36:19.260 --> 36:25.340]  I think increasingly we are, and I think we're in a unique part of history right now where this has just happened.
[36:25.920 --> 36:33.020]  Two million votes is a huge number, and if we're going to make a change, that change has to be now.
[36:33.800 --> 36:35.660]  But how do we make that change?
[36:35.880 --> 36:37.860]  The constitutional amendment, it's really, really difficult.
[36:38.160 --> 36:40.780]  Turns out there's something else.
[36:40.780 --> 36:42.060]  There is something else.
[36:42.300 --> 36:44.980]  Last week on these very airwaves, I told people to forget about it.
[36:45.020 --> 36:48.160]  I said it's a waste of time trying to change the electoral college.
[36:48.280 --> 36:48.800]  You'll never do it.
[36:48.940 --> 36:49.540]  I was wrong.
[36:50.400 --> 37:09.380]  I was wrong because I did not know about this other method, this hacker method of getting around the system, of not having to deal with the bulky, ominous blockade that's in front of us, and instead kind of doing an end run around it.
[37:09.380 --> 37:17.120]  It's called the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, which is about the most clumsy name I can possibly think of.
[37:17.300 --> 37:18.220]  Alex, do you know what they even mean?
[37:18.240 --> 37:18.900]  What's a compact?
[37:19.220 --> 37:20.500]  Is that a law or something?
[37:20.720 --> 37:22.380]  It's an agreement, I guess.
[37:23.180 --> 37:35.640]  It's an agreement.
[37:36.400 --> 37:39.780]  It's a compact, so it's an agreement between entities, I guess.
[37:39.960 --> 37:44.780]  Well, what this agreement puts forth is very simple.
[37:45.060 --> 37:46.400]  It's extremely simple.
[37:46.940 --> 38:02.380]  If the popular vote does not match the electoral college, or basically whatever the popular vote is, we will turn all of our electoral votes to that end.
[38:02.380 --> 38:08.180]  In other words, if this candidate won the popular vote, then all electoral votes will go to that candidate.
[38:09.660 --> 38:14.240]  So it basically is designed to ensure the candidate who wins the most popular vote is elected president.
[38:15.440 --> 38:18.460]  And you might say all the states are never going to agree to this.
[38:18.560 --> 38:19.080]  Well, you know what?
[38:19.720 --> 38:20.900]  Ten already have.
[38:21.180 --> 38:22.340]  New York is one of them.
[38:22.880 --> 38:24.600]  Washington State is one of them.
[38:24.820 --> 38:24.960]  Yep.
[38:25.720 --> 38:28.400]  Washington, D.C., they get three electoral votes.
[38:28.560 --> 38:31.180]  They're an addition to the 10 states.
[38:33.080 --> 38:47.140]  The states so far, the California, District of Columbia, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, that amounts to a total of 165 electoral votes.
[38:47.500 --> 38:50.360]  Now, you might say, okay, there's 538 electoral votes.
[38:50.460 --> 38:51.400]  You're a long way from that.
[38:51.500 --> 38:51.980]  But you know what?
[38:51.980 --> 38:53.540]  You don't have to get to 538.
[38:53.800 --> 38:55.480]  You only have to get to 270.
[38:55.500 --> 38:58.340]  Because once you're at 270, you've got that majority.
[38:58.640 --> 39:00.180]  That's all you need to get to.
[39:00.380 --> 39:04.400]  So all of a sudden, we're 60% of the way done.
[39:05.000 --> 39:09.380]  And you might say, and a lot of people do say this, that it's never going to fly.
[39:09.560 --> 39:13.200]  It's never going to fly because Republican states are not going to go for this.
[39:13.620 --> 39:20.100]  There's no reason to assume that Republicans are any more safe than Democrats from having an election like this happen in the future.
[39:20.100 --> 39:22.040]  Now, it's not going to change this election.
[39:22.200 --> 39:23.660]  This will not change this election.
[39:23.780 --> 39:26.300]  But it can ensure that this never happens again.
[39:26.600 --> 39:34.640]  And I don't see why Republicans would be in favor of the popular vote and the electoral college not being in agreement.
[39:35.120 --> 39:36.900]  Sure, it benefited them in 2000.
[39:37.060 --> 39:38.260]  It benefited them in 2016.
[39:38.260 --> 39:41.420]  But there's no guarantee it's going to benefit them in the future.
[39:41.480 --> 39:45.660]  You might say big cities vote one way and the farmlands vote another way.
[39:45.660 --> 39:47.800]  But last I checked, there's big cities in Florida.
[39:48.020 --> 39:48.920]  There's big cities in Ohio.
[39:49.140 --> 39:50.480]  There's big cities in Texas.
[39:51.040 --> 39:54.400]  And they sure didn't go the way of the Democrats.
[39:54.700 --> 40:02.320]  So this, to me, seems like the best way forward and a way to actually do something and make a change.
[40:02.320 --> 40:05.360]  And if nothing else, get something good out of this.
[40:05.780 --> 40:12.180]  I did see an article, by the way, in the Denver Guardian that said that Russia and Vladimir Putin...
[40:12.720 --> 40:16.240]  That said Russia had specifically endorsed this particular plan.
[40:16.640 --> 40:19.020]  I don't know if it's true or not, but yeah.
[40:19.240 --> 40:21.220]  Yeah, get the editor of the Denver Guardian on the phone.
[40:21.360 --> 40:22.260]  We'll discuss this.
[40:22.580 --> 40:25.040]  But more to your point, do you remember...
[40:25.040 --> 40:33.620]  I actually remember specifically the day in my life in social studies class that I was taught about the electoral college.
[40:33.620 --> 40:35.060]  Well, they tried to sell this to you, yeah.
[40:35.060 --> 40:39.020]  Well, I was shocked to learn that we didn't directly elect the president.
[40:39.280 --> 40:41.080]  I mean, I was appalled about it then.
[40:41.080 --> 40:48.840]  I don't even remember how old I was, but I remember the whole class really not understanding the entire concept of the electoral college.
[40:48.960 --> 40:59.420]  I still don't really understand how it was supposed to be some kind of check against tyranny and that people couldn't be trusted to vote for a president, maybe because there wasn't national news like we have back then.
[40:59.500 --> 41:01.320]  They could vote for an elector who would vote for the president.
[41:01.320 --> 41:14.520]  But it seems such an antiquated, anachronistic idea that the concept of not basing a presidential election on the majority of the vote of the United States is silly.
[41:15.120 --> 41:16.600]  Bernie, you're a tyranny expert.
[41:17.300 --> 41:17.620]  What...
[41:19.040 --> 41:24.860]  Do you know what kind of tyrannical doomsday scenario they were trying to avoid?
[41:24.860 --> 41:38.460]  I'm not really sure, specifically with our founding fathers, you know, back in time when they wrote up the Constitution, why the electoral college was encoded or embodied in our Constitution.
[41:38.460 --> 42:01.860]  But I think one of the advantages, and I'm not a fan of the electoral college system, I just want to make that clear, this alternative system that you're discussing, the National Popular Vote Compact or whatever it is, is that you could win with a simple... a president could win with a small percentage of the overall vote,
[42:01.880 --> 42:10.020]  which you could have somebody with maybe just only 22% of everyone's vote to win the election if there were a lot of people running.
[42:10.240 --> 42:12.860]  So it's not a panacea, I'm afraid.
[42:12.860 --> 42:20.080]  Um, and it's really worth us looking at both of these systems and trying to figure out which best serves the public interest.
[42:20.600 --> 42:24.320]  Um, but it's a... it really involves a lot of homework.
[42:24.660 --> 42:27.120]  You... you... you... you... you... you... you... you... this is complicated stuff.
[42:27.620 --> 42:28.920]  I... you know, I... I disagree.
[42:29.040 --> 42:34.600]  I don't know what's so complicated about... about one vote, uh, counting, uh, equally with everybody.
[42:34.600 --> 42:51.300]  Because right now, what I'm being told is that, uh, votes in cities don't count as much as votes in the country, uh, because of some antiquated notion that, uh, there'd be misrepresentation in places where there's more people, uh, and I, I, you know, if you want to look at,
[42:51.400 --> 42:55.520]  um, at, at balance issues, how come every state has two senators?
[42:55.860 --> 42:58.920]  Nebraska has the same number of senators as New York.
[42:59.280 --> 43:07.860]  Uh, uh, Kansas has the same number as California, when there's clearly so many more people in other states, and they should have more representation, but they don't.
[43:07.860 --> 43:16.940]  And so, to have two different systems where, uh, the sparsely populated areas get this kind of advantage just really seems, uh, ridiculous.
[43:17.300 --> 43:24.340]  Um, my understanding was the Electoral College was a response to the allocation of delegates, which are based on population.
[43:24.340 --> 43:37.120]  So, it's a balance to a place that is not so populous, uh, having a certain amount of delegates that would be able to compete with the propensity of votes in a, a very populous place.
[43:37.120 --> 43:55.440]  And, um, and that's often what you'll hear is, is reference to the allocation of delegates, um, such that, and, and, and then also then, uh, Senate versus legislative, there are, there are, uh, more, uh, numerous amount of, uh, state representatives based on districts and thus population,
[43:55.440 --> 44:02.480]  whereas, uh, the tradition in the Senate is simply, uh, two members from each, uh, state or, or jurisdiction.
[44:02.880 --> 44:08.820]  That is, uh, also a historical, uh, norm that we've sort of accepted over time, but really it doesn't have as much reason.
[44:08.900 --> 44:12.340]  But a lot of the representative side has to do with delegation and population.
[44:12.560 --> 44:19.680]  You get to the 538 by adding the total number of House of Representatives to the total number of Senators and then adding three for Washington, D.C.
[44:19.720 --> 44:20.860]  That gets you to 538.
[44:21.220 --> 44:25.900]  So, yeah, what you, what you say is definitely true as far as how they, they came up with this system in the first place.
[44:26.120 --> 44:29.940]  My point is, I think it's just outdated and does not serve us.
[44:30.020 --> 44:32.520]  And this is, you won't get clearer proof than this.
[44:32.680 --> 44:51.820]  Well, I think it also goes back to the, the concept that politics is so polarizing and there, the arguments against the majority vote determining the outcome of a presidential election often center around the fact that urban cities are going to have much more clout than the battleground states like Ohio and Florida.
[44:51.820 --> 44:56.280]  It's a very silly, antiquated and polarizing concept in and of itself.
[44:56.280 --> 45:11.360]  When you think about the notion of clout of a vote of the people of the United States, because if we're counting every single person's vote, doesn't the issue or, or rather the concept of clout completely go to the wayside?
[45:11.520 --> 45:13.140]  Isn't it obsolete at that point?
[45:13.280 --> 45:13.640]  Right.
[45:13.700 --> 45:15.860]  And we're counting everyone's vote equally.
[45:15.860 --> 45:28.620]  And, and I think what's, what the result is, we're operating in a system where the influences in those particular rural and, and other areas, thus the, the amount of campaign dollars, et cetera, et cetera.
[45:28.860 --> 45:44.900]  So, um, I think this would be, um, uh, about, uh, a balance and it would preserve freedom of those, um, uh, uh, individuals who can, who are actually casting this on behalf of the electorate.
[45:45.080 --> 45:59.060]  I think it maintains some, um, insulation, some freedom, uh, within that, uh, to not necessarily have to, uh, honor a commitment, um, just because it's done or, or not.
[45:59.200 --> 46:15.580]  Um, and I think in, in extenuous situations with, of this, of which this I think is definitely one of them, uh, though, those people should be free to, um, voice, continue to voice, um, the will of the people through, uh, through their power and, and,
[46:15.620 --> 46:20.720]  um, and so doing reflect the populace, uh, more, uh, Yeah, go ahead, Bernie.
[46:21.460 --> 46:22.620]  I just have a question.
[46:22.780 --> 46:38.160]  You can call it a rhetorical question because I may know the answer, but would this national popular vote, um, um, compact, uh, plan, would that basically eliminate the, the concept of, uh, a presidential candidate winning this state or that state?
[46:38.360 --> 46:44.480]  Is it a pure popular vote nationwide or is it the popular vote of each state and then you win that state?
[46:45.560 --> 46:46.720]  Uh, you want me to?
[46:46.920 --> 46:47.880]  Yeah, go ahead.
[46:47.880 --> 47:04.500]  Well, the compact would only come into effect when enough states sign onto it such that if the majority of the country votes in a certain way, then these, this compact would come into, uh, come into effect and 270 votes would then be determined through the electoral college itself.
[47:04.500 --> 47:07.700]  Uh, so the compact itself right now is in its nascent form.
[47:07.820 --> 47:09.500]  I think, what did you mention, 165?
[47:09.620 --> 47:10.680]  I mean, 165 total.
[47:10.900 --> 47:16.740]  165, uh, I, I believe it's on the ballot in a couple of states, uh, maybe totaling up to about 200.
[47:16.740 --> 47:26.000]  So it's got a ways to go, but it would only come into effect and would only operate once there was a majority that would affect a, uh, a vote of 270 of the electoral college.
[47:26.160 --> 47:36.240]  So the electoral college would still exist, but it would be relegated to, uh, an anachronism like the British monarchy or something like that, a figurehead type, type institution.
[47:36.240 --> 47:37.660]  You wouldn't have a situation like this.
[47:37.780 --> 47:42.940]  And, and, you know, you could, if it makes you feel better, flip, flip it around and say Donald Trump got 2 million more votes than Hillary Clinton.
[47:43.380 --> 47:43.660]  All right.
[47:43.780 --> 47:46.320]  And, and he lost the, uh, the electoral college.
[47:46.400 --> 47:53.780]  Well, in this particular case, we'd be able to preserve Donald Trump's legacy by, by turning those electoral votes over to him because he won the popular vote.
[47:54.000 --> 47:59.120]  But only when, when we have enough electoral votes that total 270.
[47:59.120 --> 48:03.360]  Now, Alex, you mentioned that, um, uh, it's, it's pending in a couple of states.
[48:03.740 --> 48:12.880]  I should also point out, uh, when it was passed in New York, I'm told, I, I, I haven't verified this, but I'm told that, uh, we had a Republican, uh, legislature then that passed it.
[48:13.100 --> 48:19.660]  So, uh, it's not something that is, um, it's, it's, it's something that Republicans just reject out of hand.
[48:19.840 --> 48:26.760]  I think if you just, um, rationalize it a little bit, uh, you reach the conclusion that, yeah, this makes a bit of sense.
[48:26.760 --> 48:34.660]  But Pennsylvania, Bernie, is one of the states that has this currently, um, uh, in, uh, in the state of, uh, um, what do you call that?
[48:34.900 --> 48:35.040]  Flux?
[48:35.340 --> 48:36.540]  Well, it's, it, it has...
[48:36.540 --> 48:37.340]  It's in play.
[48:37.480 --> 48:38.500]  It's in play somewhere.
[48:38.700 --> 48:39.780]  I'm not exactly sure where.
[48:40.280 --> 48:46.200]  Uh, but Bernie, um, since you are a resident of, uh, Pennsylvania, we're hoping that you, uh, stay up to date on this.
[48:46.340 --> 48:48.300]  It's in committee in the lower house.
[48:48.620 --> 48:49.960]  It's in committee in the lower house.
[48:50.100 --> 48:51.340]  The lower house is, is what?
[48:51.500 --> 48:52.140]  Uh, that's, uh...
[48:52.140 --> 48:52.700]  It's the basement.
[48:52.940 --> 48:53.160]  Okay.
[48:53.220 --> 48:53.980]  That's the legislature.
[48:54.420 --> 48:54.700]  Oh, okay.
[48:54.700 --> 48:55.660]  Yeah, it's not the Senate.
[48:56.580 --> 48:59.040]  And you've got 20 electoral votes there.
[48:59.200 --> 49:07.940]  So, Bernie, if you do your job and you help get this passed in Pennsylvania, and there's no reason why it really couldn't be, that brings us up to 185.
[49:08.120 --> 49:09.640]  Now, Michigan is the other state.
[49:09.800 --> 49:18.000]  We're looking for somebody in Michigan that can help follow this, keep us updated, apply some pressure, get some people to make some phone calls, local phone calls, folks.
[49:18.180 --> 49:19.560]  They're right there in your backyard.
[49:19.860 --> 49:23.560]  People you know, you see them in the grocery store, you talk to them.
[49:24.080 --> 49:30.060]  It's a lot more likely they will listen to you than people that are your federal representatives.
[49:30.420 --> 49:31.480]  A lot more likely.
[49:31.580 --> 49:32.480]  And that's another 16.
[49:32.780 --> 49:36.340]  So, if we get both of those states, all of a sudden, we're at 201.
[49:36.800 --> 49:37.420]  And you know what?
[49:37.960 --> 49:42.940]  Being at 201 is great because we can relax at 201 for 20 years if we want.
[49:43.140 --> 49:44.220]  It's still there.
[49:44.760 --> 49:48.440]  Unlike getting a constitutional amendment, we have to get it all done in seven years.
[49:48.760 --> 49:49.760]  This is progress.
[49:50.040 --> 49:51.780]  It's more progress than I thought was possible.
[49:51.780 --> 49:54.480]  But we can get beyond the 201.
[49:54.700 --> 49:55.540]  But Alex, you had a point.
[49:55.840 --> 49:57.740]  You mentioned the phone calls issue.
[49:57.980 --> 50:02.260]  And I think phone calls, especially on our show, are extremely important.
[50:02.480 --> 50:21.020]  If you think about what happened in this, in battleground states in the last election, with the amount of robocalls that occur, and that essentially would probably constitute aggravated harassment under any state penal law, given the amount of times people are constantly called by both candidates,
[50:21.220 --> 50:22.560]  phone ringing, off the hook, off the hook.
[50:22.560 --> 50:40.460]  I think a great argument could be made to these battleground states that are so concerned about losing clout that no longer will only you and your family and your communities be subject to the continued harassment by these candidates, but it will now be the entire nation that is harassed by these robocalls.
[50:40.460 --> 50:45.800]  It would be an egalitarian, a better way to spread that love around.
[50:46.020 --> 50:47.800]  You can't opt out of those robocalls, can you, Bernie?
[50:49.420 --> 51:01.560]  Well, robocalls aside, here in Pennsylvania, we unfortunately have a Republican majority in our House of Representatives, state representatives.
[51:02.160 --> 51:09.280]  And I think, I think a lot of Republicans think, hey, we did pretty well with this electoral system, electoral college system back in 2000 and this year.
[51:09.680 --> 51:10.820]  Why should we change?
[51:11.120 --> 51:15.280]  What's a good argument to convince Republicans, like, why they should endorse?
[51:15.520 --> 51:21.860]  Well, I'll tell you, you know, all you have to do is show them a coin and say, okay, you won the coin flip this time, you won the coin flip the second time.
[51:21.880 --> 51:23.860]  What makes you think the coin is on your side?
[51:23.860 --> 51:25.060]  But what about security?
[51:25.460 --> 51:30.520]  I mean, I think, you know, security and the issue of fraud and hacking the vote becomes really important.
[51:30.640 --> 51:32.120]  I think there's a couple steps here.
[51:32.180 --> 51:49.080]  But if you think about this from a security standpoint, swing states have so much, quote-unquote, clout or so much power that you would assume then that, you know, a smaller majority of a population, if a vote was hacked or acquired by fraud or something akin to that,
[51:49.240 --> 51:50.880]  that could really swing an election.
[51:50.880 --> 52:00.060]  If Ohio was, let's say, won by a couple hundred votes, then, you know, just, you know, hacking one particular county's votes could really make a measurable difference.
[52:00.060 --> 52:03.680]  So you would assume that there is a greater measure of security or scrutiny there.
[52:03.740 --> 52:05.060]  But that's a false assumption.
[52:05.220 --> 52:06.560]  It's not necessarily true.
[52:06.720 --> 52:13.880]  If the majority vote, however, has to carry the day, we're looking at much larger margins, 500,000, 2 million votes.
[52:14.000 --> 52:17.860]  It becomes a lot harder to fraudulently obtain or hack those kinds of votes.
[52:17.860 --> 52:39.300]  And in that sense, the crazy patchwork of mismatched systems that we have in place right now from county to county, from state to state, could actually be seen not as a bad thing, but could actually be seen as a security mechanism that prevents the widespread hacking or misappropriation of votes on a national scale.
[52:39.300 --> 52:42.020]  That actually can become a security feature and not a flaw.
[52:42.380 --> 52:47.260]  Yeah, and I think it would go a long way to reinforcing the institution.
[52:47.260 --> 52:52.740]  I know a lot of apathy comes from that feeling that, oh, my state isn't important, so I'm not going to vote.
[52:52.920 --> 52:53.160]  Exactly.
[52:53.300 --> 53:00.560]  Which is the opposite of engagement and the stuff that we would actually need in real democratic politics.
[53:00.880 --> 53:08.300]  But speaking of apathy, imagine the shot in the arm making this kind of a change will do for the American public.
[53:08.500 --> 53:11.620]  Because most people, I think it's 70% of the people want this.
[53:11.620 --> 53:13.400]  They want this Electoral College gone.
[53:13.640 --> 53:21.040]  And this is a great way to get there without actually going through the tremendous obstacles of getting a constitutional amendment.
[53:21.260 --> 53:26.980]  Now, we can assume that the swing states, which have all this undue power, they're not going to go for it.
[53:27.420 --> 53:28.420]  Iowa's not going to go for it.
[53:28.480 --> 53:29.600]  New Hampshire's not going to go for it.
[53:29.600 --> 53:40.240]  But we can assume that the states where it's been introduced as a possible law, that it's at least possible to get it passed there.
[53:40.320 --> 53:44.240]  And those states include Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware.
[53:45.000 --> 53:46.700]  It's been introduced in all these states.
[53:46.920 --> 53:49.100]  And some of these states, it has not passed.
[53:49.540 --> 53:52.560]  But that doesn't mean it's not going to be passed in the future.
[53:52.780 --> 53:55.120]  It was introduced in New York twice before it passed.
[53:55.660 --> 54:01.180]  So Maine, include Maine, Missouri, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Oregon.
[54:02.660 --> 54:03.600]  That adds up.
[54:03.700 --> 54:10.360]  If you add all those states together, and we assume that it eventually passes in all those states, you're at 289.
[54:10.360 --> 54:11.860]  So you're over the 270.
[54:12.180 --> 54:22.660]  If you get rid of all of the states that are swing states, and it passes in the states that are not swing states, Republican and Democrat, red and blue, you're at 423.
[54:22.940 --> 54:25.940]  So it's very possible to do this.
[54:26.040 --> 54:28.700]  But we just have to believe that it's possible and not give up.
[54:28.800 --> 54:32.080]  And I think too often we say, yeah, it's too hard.
[54:32.080 --> 54:33.360]  We're never going to make a change.
[54:33.360 --> 54:40.640]  And I think if nothing else from what's just happened with Trump, we should take out of it that, yeah, sometimes the impossible is possible.
[54:40.860 --> 54:56.860]  Yeah, it would be the height of, I think, laziness to say, well, I'm not even going to take a look at the system, even when there are mechanisms built into this that would still give the people power, the majority in this case.
[54:56.860 --> 55:05.920]  So, I mean, if you're going to do anything as a reaction, you might want to look at the system.
[55:06.040 --> 55:16.860]  And this is one attribute of the system that there's room to move in, but there has to be a lot more understanding of how it works and where we still have power.
[55:16.860 --> 55:22.800]  It's a great way around a system that is supposedly set up not to be bypassed.
[55:22.840 --> 55:24.880]  And as hackers, I think we should embrace it.
[55:24.960 --> 55:27.280]  It's called the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact.
[55:27.380 --> 55:28.220]  Look it up on Wikipedia.
[55:28.720 --> 55:30.620]  If you're in Michigan, contact us.
[55:30.620 --> 55:38.080]  If you want to help out and get word of it in that state, get introduced in different states, you know, we have the power to do this.
[55:38.760 --> 55:41.700]  And Bernie, hopefully you'll follow this in Pennsylvania as well.
[55:41.780 --> 55:44.020]  And we can talk about it in the weeks ahead.
[55:44.020 --> 55:45.960]  But we'll be keeping people updated.
[55:46.440 --> 55:52.160]  And you can write to us, OTH at 2600.com with your updates.
[55:52.240 --> 55:53.280]  Alex, great seeing you again.
[55:53.620 --> 55:54.680]  Always good to be here.
[55:54.840 --> 55:56.360]  I hope to be back very soon.
[55:56.460 --> 55:58.000]  Yes, thanks for your expertise.
[55:58.140 --> 55:58.560]  Thanks for sharing.
[55:58.720 --> 55:59.300]  Yeah, it was good to see you.
[55:59.340 --> 55:59.780]  Always a pleasure.
[55:59.960 --> 56:04.360]  And let's go out with something a bit more melodic from Yoko Ono.
[56:06.300 --> 56:07.460]  We'll see you again next week.
[56:07.520 --> 56:07.980]  Have a good night.
[56:08.080 --> 56:09.320]  Stay tuned for The Personal Computer Show.
[56:28.960 --> 56:31.080]  Your hands, so beautiful.
[56:31.480 --> 56:33.960]  Your hands, I even dream about them.
[56:41.450 --> 56:42.620]  Aなたの肌,こんなに熱い.
[56:48.020 --> 56:49.220]  Aなたの肌,夢には出ている.
[56:49.920 --> 56:51.660]  Your skin, so hot.
[56:52.000 --> 56:53.840]  Your skin, I even dream about it.
[57:17.290 --> 57:21.000]  In a day, no matter how many times we meet, it's not enough.
[57:21.270 --> 57:24.820]  In a lifetime, no matter how many times we meet, it's not enough.
[58:10.780 --> 58:14.920]  In many lifetimes, no matter how many times we meet, it's not enough.
[58:14.920 --> 58:17.380]  Colorful music.
[58:17.380 --> 58:21.620]  Two people, so strong.
[58:22.360 --> 58:27.940]  Two people, so strong.
[58:34.460 --> 58:38.560]  I love so strong.
[58:39.000 --> 58:40.060]  I love forever.
[58:49.790 --> 58:52.650]  Your eyes, so beautiful.
[58:53.050 --> 58:53.730]  Your eyes.