[00:00.580 --> 00:09.560]  The WBAI Local Station Board will be holding a meeting on Wednesday, January 11th at 7.30 p.m.
[00:10.060 --> 00:17.300]  at the Theater for the New City, 155 First Avenue in the East Village section of Manhattan.
[00:17.300 --> 00:31.720]  The LSB has previously voted to have an executive session at this LSB meeting to discuss personal issues, but do note that the public is invited to attend the public portion of this meeting.
[00:33.660 --> 00:34.980]  Hi, this is Jesse.
[00:35.240 --> 00:39.340]  And you are listening to Radio Station WBAI New York.
[00:39.480 --> 00:40.860]  The time is 8.01.
[00:41.120 --> 00:42.740]  Time for Off the Hook.
[00:50.990 --> 00:52.390]  I ripped it off the wall.
[00:53.410 --> 00:55.350]  I cut myself while shaving.
[00:55.950 --> 00:57.830]  Now I can't make a call.
[00:58.650 --> 01:00.710]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:01.410 --> 01:03.250]  But if they could, they would.
[01:03.530 --> 01:06.170]  Funded it bombed for the best to stay for worst.
[01:06.810 --> 01:08.650]  I hope that's understood.
[01:08.910 --> 01:09.810]  Funded it bombed!
[02:06.830 --> 02:08.310]  And a very good evening for everybody.
[02:08.410 --> 02:09.290]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:09.350 --> 02:11.890]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by Rob T.
[02:12.010 --> 02:12.410]  Firefly.
[02:12.630 --> 02:13.270]  Good evening.
[02:13.510 --> 02:13.770]  Kyle.
[02:14.150 --> 02:14.870]  I'm over here.
[02:15.310 --> 02:16.370]  And Bernie S.
[02:17.030 --> 02:18.970]  Greetings from Washington, D.C.
[02:19.470 --> 02:20.350]  And... Wait a minute.
[02:20.430 --> 02:21.910]  Why are you in Washington, D.C.?
[02:22.530 --> 02:27.370]  Um... I had to meet with some VIPs pre-inauguration, and that's all I can say.
[02:27.470 --> 02:28.930]  Oh, I see what you're up to.
[02:29.070 --> 02:29.750]  Okay, good, good.
[02:29.930 --> 02:30.590]  Mom's the word.
[02:31.150 --> 02:38.530]  Um... Yes, we, uh... We are down to 16 days and counting before our special friend arrives.
[02:39.050 --> 02:45.770]  Yeah, um... Boy, it's been an interesting week, and we have a lot to talk about, a lot to go over.
[02:46.230 --> 02:52.050]  First of all, uh... Do you all feel smarter, based on what you've learned over the past, uh, couple of days?
[02:52.290 --> 02:53.630]  Or today, to be honest?
[02:54.410 --> 02:54.570]  Yeah?
[02:54.570 --> 02:54.590]  Yeah?
[02:55.690 --> 02:59.430]  I've been watching the news, listening to what people have to say, and...
[02:59.430 --> 02:59.750]  Smarter?
[03:00.130 --> 03:00.290]  Yeah.
[03:00.510 --> 03:01.330]  I always feel smarter.
[03:01.570 --> 03:01.830]  Smarter?
[03:02.010 --> 03:02.910]  Well, you should feel smarter.
[03:03.550 --> 03:06.110]  Um... As we all know, um...
[03:06.110 --> 03:07.630]  Donald Trump knows a lot about hacking.
[03:07.750 --> 03:08.530]  This is what he said, in fact.
[03:08.630 --> 03:10.430]  He said, I know a lot about hacking.
[03:10.930 --> 03:13.370]  And hacking is a very hard thing to prove.
[03:14.290 --> 03:15.750]  So it could be somebody else.
[03:16.850 --> 03:20.430]  And I also know things that other people don't know.
[03:20.850 --> 03:24.070]  And so they cannot be sure of the situation.
[03:25.290 --> 03:27.530]  It's kind of like an episode of Twin Peaks, I know.
[03:27.610 --> 03:28.270]  I'll read that again.
[03:28.330 --> 03:30.050]  I'll read that again, just so you didn't miss anything.
[03:30.570 --> 03:31.950]  I know a lot about hacking.
[03:32.710 --> 03:34.750]  And hacking is a very hard thing to prove.
[03:35.230 --> 03:36.770]  So it could be somebody else.
[03:36.770 --> 03:40.370]  And I also know things that other people don't know.
[03:40.510 --> 03:43.770]  And so they cannot be sure of the situation.
[03:44.050 --> 03:53.730]  And when people naturally asked him what he knew that others did not, he said, you'll find out on Tuesday or Wednesday.
[03:54.110 --> 03:56.730]  Well, we didn't find out on Tuesday.
[03:57.710 --> 03:58.890]  And today is Wednesday.
[03:59.250 --> 04:01.830]  So, what did we find out?
[04:02.870 --> 04:03.950]  I don't know.
[04:04.210 --> 04:06.070]  I didn't find anything.
[04:06.070 --> 04:07.670]  Rob, did you find anything out?
[04:08.030 --> 04:10.110]  No, and I'm suddenly not feeling smarter anymore.
[04:10.550 --> 04:11.870]  Okay, Bernie, then that leaves you.
[04:12.230 --> 04:15.930]  I don't think he said anything about this today, other than that he talked...
[04:15.930 --> 04:16.470]  Oh, I know.
[04:16.530 --> 04:18.470]  Maybe he was talking about Julian Assange.
[04:19.590 --> 04:20.650]  Is that what he knew?
[04:20.810 --> 04:22.510]  That he was going to sing his praises today?
[04:23.850 --> 04:25.970]  Yeah, I think he probably knew he was going to do that, yes.
[04:26.710 --> 04:27.110]  Wow.
[04:29.010 --> 04:34.530]  Is it possible that he simply didn't do what he said he was going to do?
[04:35.310 --> 04:35.790]  Yes.
[04:36.530 --> 04:37.230]  Okay, all right.
[04:37.970 --> 04:39.970]  We're establishing a precedent then.
[04:40.210 --> 04:44.030]  And maybe this is something we can get used to over the next however many years he lasts.
[04:45.050 --> 04:50.010]  So, he will say he's going to do something and then not do it.
[04:51.230 --> 04:51.710]  Okay.
[04:51.950 --> 04:52.150]  Yes.
[04:52.970 --> 04:53.650]  All right.
[04:53.770 --> 04:54.390]  We're learning.
[04:54.630 --> 04:55.610]  We are more intelligent.
[04:55.770 --> 04:56.590]  We're learning something here.
[04:57.130 --> 05:02.370]  So, you cannot count on him to actually follow through with his promises.
[05:02.930 --> 05:05.010]  Now, Mr. Trump does not use email.
[05:05.130 --> 05:06.450]  Did you know that he doesn't use email?
[05:07.030 --> 05:10.650]  He uses that damn Twitter all the time, but he does not use email.
[05:11.610 --> 05:12.650]  That's astounding.
[05:12.650 --> 05:13.550]  Isn't that astounding?
[05:13.790 --> 05:15.230]  It's baffling.
[05:15.370 --> 05:16.710]  It's shocking.
[05:19.290 --> 05:22.890]  He's advising people to avoid computers when dealing with delicate material.
[05:23.090 --> 05:24.070]  It's very important, he says.
[05:24.190 --> 05:29.430]  If you have something really important, write it out and have it delivered by Courier the old-fashioned way.
[05:29.450 --> 05:32.510]  Because I'll tell you what, no computer is safe.
[05:32.510 --> 05:33.750]  I don't care what they say.
[05:33.750 --> 05:35.110]  No computer is safe.
[05:35.450 --> 05:37.150]  I have a boy who's 10 years old.
[05:37.210 --> 05:38.190]  He can do anything with a computer.
[05:38.190 --> 05:43.950]  You want something to go without detection, write it out and have it sent by Courier.
[05:44.090 --> 05:46.190]  Well, the Couriers are really happy with this.
[05:46.810 --> 05:53.450]  The Guild or whatever it is that is their union, yeah, they're thrilled because all of a sudden, everyone's going to be using Couriers again.
[05:55.770 --> 05:58.210]  But really, no computer is safe.
[05:58.550 --> 06:02.630]  And if you want something really important, don't use a computer, use a Courier.
[06:03.490 --> 06:06.050]  First of all, when did Couriers get so trustworthy?
[06:06.710 --> 06:10.190]  You know, you can compromise a Courier pretty easily, I think.
[06:10.190 --> 06:11.890]  I watched a lot of movies where that happened.
[06:12.070 --> 06:19.650]  Yeah, I'm pretty sure we have, what, 2,000, 3,000 years worth of history which hinged on Couriers being waylaid or subverted.
[06:20.010 --> 06:23.050]  Yeah, I'm not aware of a history where Couriers...
[06:23.970 --> 06:26.230]  There was not a failure in that system.
[06:27.830 --> 06:33.610]  It shows kind of a detachment, I think, from the current requirement.
[06:33.830 --> 06:37.130]  I mean, it's such a contrast from Canada declaring it a human right.
[06:37.950 --> 06:49.530]  We're required to use information technology, so it's very difficult to actually get by without a computer or without using or interacting or at least being mildly aware of them.
[06:50.030 --> 06:59.170]  Well, when network neutrality is torn to pieces, maybe we'll feel the same way that we don't want to use computers anymore and we'll go back to the old-fashioned way.
[06:59.270 --> 07:11.630]  But, you know, looking at this statement that he was communicating to us, no computer is safe, and if it's important, don't use a computer.
[07:12.050 --> 07:16.950]  He's one step away, just one step away from endorsing encryption, you know?
[07:17.030 --> 07:18.890]  But he couldn't make that final step.
[07:18.890 --> 07:20.310]  He couldn't say it.
[07:20.390 --> 07:23.330]  And, you know, if you want something important, encrypt it.
[07:23.530 --> 07:26.750]  If you want to communicate something important, send it securely.
[07:26.790 --> 07:35.850]  Because, you know, the Internet is wide open and the NSA is spying on you, and God knows who's going to be reading your emails if you just send them out in plain text.
[07:36.010 --> 07:39.750]  So, yes, by all means, do it the old-fashioned way.
[07:40.090 --> 07:40.650]  Encrypt it.
[07:40.770 --> 07:41.530]  That's what I would say.
[07:41.690 --> 07:43.290]  I think maybe he's encrypting his Twitter.
[07:43.470 --> 07:50.490]  He's taking, you know, reasonable, thoughtful prose and encrypting it so it seems like random paranoid gibberish and tweeting it.
[07:50.810 --> 07:51.670]  Well, it's working.
[07:51.870 --> 07:53.430]  It's definitely getting through.
[07:54.750 --> 07:55.850]  Yes, Bernie, did you have something?
[07:56.570 --> 07:58.310]  Well, you know, courier...
[07:59.290 --> 08:01.730]  One could say that I'm being a courier today.
[08:01.850 --> 08:02.290]  I'm in D.C.
[08:02.450 --> 08:05.310]  and I am transporting an important message.
[08:05.530 --> 08:07.730]  So, it can be work.
[08:07.810 --> 08:10.010]  But, I mean, I could be compromised.
[08:10.570 --> 08:15.970]  You know, everybody has their price or, you know, there's always waterboarding and breadboarding, things like that.
[08:16.290 --> 08:20.550]  So, if someone knows who the courier is, then, you know, all bets are off.
[08:20.710 --> 08:22.750]  It's not wrong, technically.
[08:22.750 --> 08:26.570]  I mean, it's a real generalization.
[08:26.730 --> 08:42.510]  And in the context of this hacking and that there's conclusive evidence from major federal investigative agencies and consensus and all these things...
[08:42.510 --> 08:42.950]  Only 19 of them.
[08:42.970 --> 08:43.450]  Come on.
[08:43.510 --> 08:44.490]  Let's not exaggerate.
[08:44.710 --> 08:45.110]  Right.
[08:45.850 --> 08:47.350]  I don't think that really applies.
[08:47.350 --> 08:56.610]  I mean, yeah, they may have legal messengers and couriers as a part of their apparatus, but it's not the only way that's getting done.
[08:57.730 --> 08:59.470]  Their work there is getting done.
[08:59.650 --> 09:01.970]  And it's just... it's this oversimplification.
[09:03.230 --> 09:11.790]  Well, yeah, speaking of oversimplification, you know, you ever hang out with relatives who don't have a clue about technology and they think you're some kind of computer genius?
[09:12.610 --> 09:14.250]  I think that's happened to all of us.
[09:14.530 --> 09:19.470]  And, you know, you just want to roll your eyes because, yeah, you might know a thing or two, but you're by no means a genius.
[09:19.470 --> 09:20.310]  You don't know everything.
[09:20.450 --> 09:22.050]  You know what your shortcomings are.
[09:22.330 --> 09:27.630]  And it's just... it just calls to attention how little people tell themselves they know.
[09:27.910 --> 09:31.190]  I'm deliberately saying it's not what they don't know.
[09:31.210 --> 09:36.610]  It's what they tell themselves they don't know because everybody is capable of learning something about technology.
[09:36.610 --> 09:37.630]  A lot of people are afraid.
[09:37.770 --> 09:40.750]  A lot of people are intimidated and convinced not to.
[09:41.030 --> 09:54.090]  But whether it's your great uncle or your mother or, you know, your distant cousin that thinks you're the computer genius that knows everything, that can do anything with a computer, it's probably not true.
[09:54.290 --> 09:54.890]  It's probably...
[09:54.890 --> 09:57.190]  You're probably not that much of a genius that can do anything.
[09:57.470 --> 10:00.950]  However, Trump believes his 10-year-old son can do anything.
[10:01.490 --> 10:12.430]  And it just reminds me of those people that close themselves off, that refuse to learn anything, that think, oh, yeah, it's some kind of magic box that only kids can get.
[10:12.590 --> 10:21.130]  Now, that kind of attitude and the President of the United States, I think, could be a bit dangerous and just kind of silly.
[10:22.350 --> 10:27.570]  Yeah, I mean, I think when I was 10, my family would have described me the same way regarding computers.
[10:27.730 --> 10:30.850]  Oh, you can do anything with those strange boxes that no one else knows how to use.
[10:30.970 --> 10:35.690]  But, you know, now it's a generation or two later and everyone does have a certain amount of understanding.
[10:35.830 --> 10:39.830]  But it doesn't surprise me somehow that he seems to be a little behind the curve.
[10:40.010 --> 10:51.310]  I feel sorry for that kid when something breaks in the White House and Trump is going to assume that he can just fix anything and he'll be yelling at him and trying to get him to stop the nukes from launching or whatever it is that he screws up.
[10:51.590 --> 10:56.670]  Only after he's done blaming that kid for breaking it in the first place.
[10:56.690 --> 10:59.210]  Yes, he'll do that as well because he can do anything.
[10:59.430 --> 11:03.290]  And it's the same mentality that basically thinks hackers do everything.
[11:03.290 --> 11:11.590]  That they are responsible for all the privacy invasions and all the machines that break and any difficulty that you have.
[11:11.830 --> 11:14.770]  You know, back in the 90s, they blamed Kevin Mitnick for everything that went wrong.
[11:15.190 --> 11:16.890]  And now it's just hackers in general.
[11:17.770 --> 11:28.050]  That kind of intentional blindness is really harmful and not at all what we want in somebody who's allegedly leading us.
[11:28.050 --> 11:34.150]  I would just like to be ahead of the curve and congratulate Donald Trump's 10-year-old son on his inevitable cabinet appointment.
[11:35.090 --> 11:36.130]  I feel sorry for that kid.
[11:36.230 --> 11:36.670]  I really do.
[11:37.950 --> 11:38.810]  Yes, Bernie, go ahead.
[11:39.110 --> 11:45.310]  I just wanted to say we're going to be changing to a new administration in, I don't know, what is it, 18 days or something?
[11:45.350 --> 11:45.930]  Speak for yourself.
[11:46.110 --> 11:46.650]  Oh, no, I'm sorry.
[11:46.710 --> 11:47.390]  No, I'm sorry.
[11:47.670 --> 11:48.170]  We're not.
[11:48.250 --> 11:48.490]  We're not.
[11:48.490 --> 11:51.670]  I'm having trouble dealing with it, but yeah, we're all going to have to do that.
[11:51.670 --> 11:51.990]  You're right.
[11:52.070 --> 11:52.310]  You're right.
[11:52.310 --> 11:58.890]  Well, it seems to me that Barack Obama was much more technologically savvy than Donald Trump.
[11:59.090 --> 11:59.350]  Really?
[11:59.670 --> 12:00.990]  You got that from him, huh?
[12:02.130 --> 12:07.630]  And that's, you know, that's a pretty low bar to compare anyone's technological savviness with Donald Trump.
[12:07.750 --> 12:15.090]  But in any case, it's going to be really interesting to see how that translates into technology policy coming on.
[12:15.090 --> 12:26.530]  We've already seen him appoint, Trump appoint people that are vehemently against net neutrality and other consumer protection laws, but related to technology.
[12:26.770 --> 12:35.750]  And I think this technological ignorance coming from the top is going to play out in really interesting ways that we need to be up on and follow.
[12:35.870 --> 12:53.270]  Well, think of the people that are on his team that do know how it works, that have ill intentions, and that will simply tell him whatever it is he needs to believe in order to sign the paper and change the law to do what they want him to do.
[12:53.590 --> 12:54.670]  He'll believe anything.
[12:54.830 --> 12:55.670]  He'll believe what he's told.
[12:55.850 --> 13:00.190]  And he's appointing people that do not have our interests in mind.
[13:00.550 --> 13:03.210]  So it's going to be a very scary time as far as that goes.
[13:03.410 --> 13:07.750]  But let's talk about what happened in the last week because quite a bit has happened.
[13:08.430 --> 13:12.110]  As you may know, a bunch of Russians got kicked out of the United States.
[13:13.130 --> 13:14.730]  by the Obama administration.
[13:15.070 --> 13:23.310]  Now, there's a lot of back and forth on this, a lot of debate and controversy, but we're going to try and get as many facts down as we can.
[13:23.970 --> 13:24.550]  U.S.
[13:24.930 --> 13:29.110]  officials have dubbed the alleged Russian campaign grisly step.
[13:29.370 --> 13:31.230]  That's step with two Ps and an E.
[13:31.510 --> 13:41.650]  And the recent report was issued shortly after the Obama administration announced new sanctions against Russian agencies and individuals for the cyber attack.
[13:41.650 --> 13:42.870]  I have the report right here, in fact.
[13:42.990 --> 13:44.390]  This is what it sounds like.
[13:44.450 --> 13:45.970]  I'll pass it over to you guys.
[13:46.390 --> 13:47.950]  Just read it over and...
[13:47.950 --> 13:49.010]  That's a healthy size.
[13:49.010 --> 13:50.530]  How did you get a staple through that?
[13:50.610 --> 13:51.830]  I put a staple through myself.
[13:52.090 --> 13:52.410]  Wow.
[13:52.770 --> 13:55.070]  It's only about 20 pages or less.
[13:55.170 --> 13:56.150]  It's not really that in-depth.
[13:56.390 --> 13:56.630]  Okay.
[13:57.270 --> 14:00.410]  But anyway, it's Grizzly Step.
[14:00.610 --> 14:02.010]  I don't know where they got that name.
[14:02.010 --> 14:03.390]  I'm sure there's a reason behind it.
[14:04.810 --> 14:10.250]  And it came out right after the sanctions were announced and people were asked to leave.
[14:10.410 --> 14:16.570]  Now, according to this report, there are two Russian groups that took part in the hack of a, quote, U.S.
[14:16.730 --> 14:17.450]  political party.
[14:17.670 --> 14:18.310]  Guess which one?
[14:21.530 --> 14:22.490]  They basically...
[14:22.490 --> 14:26.750]  They say the group known as Advanced Persistent Threat 29.
[14:26.750 --> 14:32.070]  I don't know if that's their name or what we call them, but it's a great name either way.
[14:32.450 --> 14:44.350]  Advanced Persistent Threat 29, known for short as APT 29 or APT 29, I suppose, first broke into the DNC's systems in the summer of 2015.
[14:45.130 --> 14:50.510]  The other group known as APT 28, does that mean there's 27 more of them before this?
[14:51.250 --> 14:55.570]  APT 28 breached the systems in the spring of 2016.
[14:55.970 --> 14:56.530]  Now, it's interesting.
[14:56.830 --> 14:57.630]  Think about that.
[14:58.110 --> 14:59.930]  Why wouldn't they just say it's all the same group?
[15:00.090 --> 15:10.830]  You know, that tells you they're able to tell the difference between one group and another group, both Russian, you know, both an advanced persistent threat, but somehow different.
[15:11.090 --> 15:14.210]  So, right there, that's something the media is not focusing on this.
[15:14.390 --> 15:17.550]  They're basically just saying, is it true or is it not true?
[15:18.230 --> 15:20.210]  There is some research behind this.
[15:20.290 --> 15:23.830]  Whether or not you accept the research, that's the question that we have to tackle.
[15:24.070 --> 15:33.850]  Now, these groups often trick their victims into divulging legitimate credentials by closely mimicking domains and email addresses from their employers.
[15:34.830 --> 15:38.810]  We might have seen something like that coming into our personal email boxes.
[15:39.070 --> 15:45.190]  You know, click here to pay your MasterCard balance or overdraw it, your checking account.
[15:45.410 --> 15:47.930]  Just simply enter your password here and we can fix this right now.
[15:48.350 --> 15:53.150]  Or maybe you've won something, but we need your credentials in order to process it.
[15:53.150 --> 16:08.430]  once APT-28 and APT-29 have access to victims, both groups exfiltrate and analyze information to craft highly targeted spear phishing campaigns and then harvest credentials and other valuable information from their targets.
[16:08.590 --> 16:09.490]  That's according to the report.
[16:09.750 --> 16:19.470]  Now, in the summer of 2015, operatives from APT-29 blasted out a malicious link to more than 1,000 potential victims, many of them in the U.S.
[16:19.590 --> 16:28.970]  government, the report said, and that effort led to the DNC hack after at least one targeted individual clicked on links to malicious software and opened attachments.
[16:29.250 --> 16:31.790]  That one person was, of course, John Podesta.
[16:31.950 --> 16:32.830]  We'll get to him in a second.
[16:33.670 --> 16:51.310]  Now, APT-29 delivered malware to the political party systems, established persistence, escalated privileges, enumerated active directory accounts, and exfiltrated email from several accounts through encrypted connections.
[16:51.710 --> 16:52.810]  They knew what they were doing.
[16:53.230 --> 17:00.090]  In spring 2016, a new spear phishing campaign from APT-28, they're going backwards.
[17:00.450 --> 17:03.950]  It was APT-29 and APT-28 did something afterwards.
[17:04.250 --> 17:16.310]  They targeted the Democratic Party and tricked recipients into changing their passwords through a fake webmail domain, allowing hackers to steal content, likely including multiple senior party members.
[17:16.430 --> 17:19.470]  That's according to both the FBI and Department of Homeland Security.
[17:19.950 --> 17:20.390]  The U.S.
[17:20.770 --> 17:25.050]  assesses that information was leaked to the press and publicly disclosed.
[17:25.590 --> 17:35.290]  Internal DNC messages posted online earlier this year appeared to show efforts by DNC officials to undermine Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders during the primary season.
[17:35.410 --> 17:37.030]  You know, nothing that really surprised me either.
[17:38.330 --> 17:50.950]  there was nothing in these emails that I saw at least that was a smoking gun for crimes against humanity or, say, faking weapons of mass destruction being found in a particular place.
[17:51.910 --> 17:56.230]  Political skullduggery, yeah, trying to get Bernie Sanders out of the race.
[17:56.450 --> 17:58.430]  Exactly what I would have expected them to be doing.
[17:58.610 --> 18:00.410]  Not nice, but not surprising.
[18:01.190 --> 18:08.230]  After those damaging emails were publicly released by WikiLeaks, Florida Representative Debbie Wasserman Schultz had to step down as the DNC's chairwoman.
[18:09.310 --> 18:26.550]  And, of course, the emails that were stolen from the private email account of Hillary Clinton's campaign chairman John Podesta also led to a series of uncomfortable disclosures that were repeatedly highlighted by now-President-elect Donald Trump and other critics during the presidential campaign.
[18:26.870 --> 18:29.850]  So, yeah, you think maybe this might have had an effect.
[18:29.850 --> 18:30.870]  Well, look at it this way.
[18:31.410 --> 18:39.910]  Less than 80,000 people is the margin by which Donald Trump won in those key states that gave him the Electoral College.
[18:40.110 --> 18:57.670]  So I think it's certainly possible with all this these accusations being thrown around as far as what was in those emails and what it said about the person who sent them and the Democratic Party in general as opposed to absolutely nothing coming from Donald Trump.
[18:57.810 --> 19:06.250]  No tax return, no leaked emails, no scandals of any sort other than the ones that were already out there that apparently weren't enough to sway certain people.
[19:06.810 --> 19:14.450]  Yeah, I think it's a fair assessment to say that what appeared in WikiLeaks was enough to sway the election.
[19:14.610 --> 19:18.450]  So I can see why authorities would want to find out.
[19:18.650 --> 19:29.350]  I can see why Obama said, before I leave office, have this report on my desk, investigate this, and I can also see why Donald Trump does not want that to happen.
[19:29.590 --> 19:30.630]  The same reason.
[19:31.170 --> 19:35.770]  Now, we said we were going to get to John Podesta, and boy, are we ever.
[19:36.470 --> 19:42.470]  Get this, it was a single typo that could have tipped the entire U.S.
[19:42.770 --> 19:43.130]  election.
[19:44.990 --> 19:48.730]  There's this guy, Charles Delavan, he's a Clinton campaign aide.
[19:48.830 --> 19:55.190]  He wrote an email to one of Podesta's aides that was later published by WikiLeaks.
[19:55.190 --> 20:04.290]  And that email said that Podesta must immediately change his password after the exhausted chairman clicked on a phishing email requesting he change his Gmail password.
[20:06.510 --> 20:11.890]  Delavan then urged Podesta's aide to ensure two-factor authentication was set up on the account.
[20:12.370 --> 20:13.590]  Great advice, right?
[20:13.770 --> 20:14.350]  Sound advice.
[20:14.570 --> 20:18.650]  Could it help prevent the entire hack on the Democratic National Committee's email server?
[20:19.450 --> 20:27.250]  And now pretty much all but confirmed, we can debate it later to be the handiwork of Russian hackers with links to Moscow.
[20:28.050 --> 20:29.150]  But here's the thing.
[20:29.710 --> 20:30.810]  He messed up.
[20:30.930 --> 20:37.390]  He messed up the email, the important email that he was sending out to advise somebody to change their damn password.
[20:38.410 --> 20:39.490]  Here's how it read.
[20:40.470 --> 20:42.070]  This is a legitimate email.
[20:42.530 --> 20:48.090]  John needs to change his password immediately and ensure that two-factor authentication is turned on his account.
[20:48.390 --> 20:51.310]  He can go to this link to do both.
[20:51.550 --> 20:54.190]  It is absolutely imperative that this is done ASAP.
[20:54.870 --> 20:56.590]  The link, no problem with the link.
[20:56.770 --> 20:59.370]  It was a link at Google to change a password.
[21:00.610 --> 21:07.950]  The typo, the first sentence referring to the email that was forwarded to them.
[21:08.110 --> 21:09.830]  This is a legitimate email.
[21:10.270 --> 21:12.890]  Meant to say this isn't a legitimate email.
[21:13.110 --> 21:24.310]  And because he said this is a legitimate email, well, apparently they didn't think it was a high priority to change the password because why bother if it was a legitimate email.
[21:25.630 --> 21:27.510]  And that is how we get Trump.
[21:27.850 --> 21:28.830]  What do you think about that, Bernie?
[21:29.710 --> 21:32.350]  A typo led to our president-elect.
[21:32.930 --> 21:38.290]  You couldn't make this stuff up, but it's entirely plausible, and we can see what happens here.
[21:38.310 --> 21:38.910]  I think you're right.
[21:39.070 --> 21:41.870]  And typo could be Trump's middle name.
[21:41.930 --> 21:56.410]  In fact, one of the good things about having Trump tweets sent to your phone is that he can't erase them after they arrive at your phone, whereas if you look at the Twitter webpage, lots of times things disappear, and he spelled Julian Assange's name wrong,
[21:56.470 --> 21:58.170]  and then he had to retweet again today.
[21:58.630 --> 22:00.030]  I thought that was just kind of funny.
[22:00.170 --> 22:09.370]  And there are many times where he spelled something wrong or just made something make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and it's good to see the unrevised version.
[22:10.010 --> 22:20.150]  The fact that this was a typo that swayed all of this, I mean, I'm sure we've got lots of listeners who do or have done IT work, and I'm sure we've got some people in this room who have done that same sort of thing.
[22:20.490 --> 22:39.050]  And so many people can tell you, every data breach at an organization, I would say the vast majority of them could be traced back to somebody not following advice they were already given by the experts, or something failing to connect with somebody in the form of an instruction that they should do to ensure their data safety.
[22:39.710 --> 22:46.830]  And this just happens to be an occasion where it happened at an entity that has a huge hand in affecting the course of his nation.
[22:47.010 --> 22:50.030]  It shows how little you have to do to set something in motion.
[22:50.490 --> 22:54.690]  It's like the dominoes or any other thing.
[22:54.850 --> 22:59.150]  This one little straw can break the camel's back, as it were.
[22:59.390 --> 23:02.130]  It's such a tiny, tiny little thing.
[23:02.290 --> 23:16.690]  Someone trying to be helpful, trying to be proactive and alert people, but the phrasing or just by being in a hurry, that haste causing it to go in a completely unintended way.
[23:16.910 --> 23:17.770]  Yeah, absolutely.
[23:18.830 --> 23:37.770]  And don't you think that in the Trump camp, there are many people that also don't take that advice, that have made bad decisions, that have sent out directions that should not be followed, and that have lived horrible security practices, and yet none of them were touched.
[23:37.770 --> 23:43.170]  That alone, that alone is awfully weird and suspicious in my eyes.
[23:43.310 --> 23:47.730]  I've been wondering this almost the entire year because why haven't they been touched?
[23:47.910 --> 23:52.290]  Why haven't we gotten to read all the private emails like we have with the Democrats?
[23:52.590 --> 23:55.970]  It should have been an equal playing field.
[23:56.110 --> 23:58.390]  I think it's being guarded by that wizard of a 10-year-old.
[23:58.590 --> 23:59.110]  Maybe.
[23:59.350 --> 24:00.530]  Maybe that's the secret.
[24:01.150 --> 24:09.190]  So anyway, we have the actions taken against Russia and their response...
[24:09.190 --> 24:11.730]  Well, first of all, they were very concerned as to what might happen.
[24:12.570 --> 24:27.150]  President Vladimir Putin's internet advisor, that's right, internet advisor, German Klimenko, yeah, I like his password, warned Russians that their country could get, quote, entirely unplugged from the world's internet.
[24:27.770 --> 24:29.150]  Yeah, that could happen.
[24:29.750 --> 24:38.330]  And earlier in the week, the Russian Ministry of Communications worked on a draft of a new law designed as a protective measure for the most important state institutions.
[24:38.330 --> 24:42.250]  The effect of such measures could well play into authoritarian hands.
[24:42.250 --> 24:42.790]  Surprise.
[24:43.130 --> 24:58.450]  As independent political analyst Dmitry Oreshkin told the Daily Beast, Putin's first move is to isolate Russia, separate people from the world with a USS-style iron curtain, except that this time, the curtain is designed against the freedom of internet information.
[24:58.810 --> 25:04.850]  In Soviet times, Russians were also told that there, on the other side of the curtain, the world is full of miserable liars.
[25:05.270 --> 25:09.230]  But the real surprise came with Putin's reaction.
[25:09.970 --> 25:24.330]  One of the most described here as one of the most spectacular jiu-jitsu moves of his political career, announcing that Russia would not be punishing any American children or closing any American dachas or anything like that.
[25:24.390 --> 25:28.010]  A move that echoed Michelle Obama's they go low, we go high.
[25:28.490 --> 25:31.330]  Putin announced we will not create problems for U.S.
[25:31.450 --> 25:38.610]  diplomats, we will not expel anyone, we will not prohibit their families and children to use their usual vacation spots in the New Year's holidays.
[25:39.130 --> 25:41.270]  Moreover, I am inviting all children of the U.S.
[25:41.410 --> 25:45.590]  diplomats accredited in Russia to the New Year's and Christmas celebration in the Kremlin.
[25:46.250 --> 25:47.690]  He's being all nice.
[25:48.110 --> 25:51.010]  And that's when you know somebody's up to something.
[25:52.230 --> 25:55.970]  And basically giving a big middle finger to Obama saying, okay, you know what, you're a lame duck.
[25:56.130 --> 25:57.810]  They even said that in their Twitter feed.
[25:57.910 --> 25:58.910]  They had a picture of a lame duck.
[25:59.510 --> 26:01.310]  And in a few weeks, you're not going to matter.
[26:02.030 --> 26:11.610]  So think about that, that kind of confidence that they can simply brush this off because they know they're covered in the future.
[26:12.110 --> 26:14.530]  So that's kind of weird right there as well.
[26:15.090 --> 26:27.190]  While we reserve the right to respond, we will not drop to this level of irresponsible diplomacy, and we will make further steps to help resurrect Russian-American relations based on the policies that the administration of D.
[26:27.430 --> 26:28.730]  Trump will pursue.
[26:29.710 --> 26:30.210]  Yeah.
[26:31.310 --> 26:35.470]  So that's the Russian reaction as far as that goes.
[26:35.710 --> 26:40.530]  Now, there's been a lot of speculation as to just what they're being accused of.
[26:40.770 --> 26:48.070]  And there was a really good article in the Daily Dot entitled, Is It Right to Say Russia Hacked the U.S.
[26:49.370 --> 26:52.150]  Written by Andrew Colts.
[26:52.830 --> 26:54.950]  And I'm just going to read a few excerpts of this.
[26:55.010 --> 26:56.330]  Did Russia hack the U.S.
[26:56.650 --> 26:56.690]  election?
[26:56.890 --> 27:03.590]  And your answer to this question likely reveals where you stand on the political divide or perhaps on the definition of the word hack.
[27:04.170 --> 27:06.050]  Yeah, the DNC was hacked.
[27:06.570 --> 27:07.810]  John Podesta was hacked.
[27:08.170 --> 27:12.450]  But Russia did not hack the 2016 presidential election.
[27:12.810 --> 27:16.150]  Or so the argument goes from Twitter and Reddit to cable news.
[27:17.230 --> 27:24.170]  Some, like former Trump advisor Steve Cortez, argue that even Podesta wasn't hacked, but instead gave into a phishing scheme.
[27:24.510 --> 27:24.730]  Whatever.
[27:25.390 --> 27:36.190]  Russia, for the record, denies any involvement and at least two independent security researchers agree that the report fails to provide conclusive evidence that Russian intelligence hacked the Democrats, regardless of whether it did.
[27:36.870 --> 27:42.970]  Far more evidence is needed and much of that evidence likely remains classified if you even believe that it exists.
[27:43.210 --> 27:47.110]  And I can't say I'm too surprised by that and hopefully we'll see more.
[27:47.330 --> 27:53.530]  Now, for many, the phrase election hack suggests tampering with voting machines to change ballots.
[27:53.710 --> 27:54.730]  Now, why would anyone think that?
[27:54.950 --> 27:58.350]  Well, for one thing, the media told them that's what it meant.
[27:58.530 --> 28:03.550]  They, along with President Barack Obama and others, also told them hacking the U.S.
[28:03.850 --> 28:08.470]  election wasn't possible, largely in the context of Trump claiming the election was rigged.
[28:08.790 --> 28:11.810]  Then told them Russia did exactly that.
[28:12.210 --> 28:13.850]  Well, I blame the media.
[28:14.070 --> 28:16.110]  I do believe the media was doing exactly that.
[28:16.250 --> 28:19.870]  I don't know if Obama ever actually said that voting machines were hacked.
[28:19.990 --> 28:20.930]  Did he ever say that?
[28:21.190 --> 28:27.530]  Well, I think it speaks to the concerns of machines being tampered with during the actual election process.
[28:27.530 --> 28:51.910]  But there's also the hacking that went on prior to the physical actual election date that was about releasing emails to show the DNC or show the electorate what the DNC or whatever candidate was doing or their leadership was engaged in in the run-up.
[28:52.870 --> 29:05.470]  Well, the article goes on to say the issue here is that hacking does not just mean breaching a computer system as many of us already know or tampering with code or installing malware that steals sensitive data.
[29:05.870 --> 29:10.190]  Hacking also means social engineering, manipulating people, not machines.
[29:10.650 --> 29:12.330]  And Russia is accused of doing both.
[29:12.430 --> 29:15.070]  In fact, it's accused of doing both at once and then some.
[29:15.270 --> 29:29.350]  Now, many of the hacks you hear about, whether it's a celebrity Twitter account hijacked by pranksters or Podesta handing his Gmail login over to Russian intelligence thanks to a spear phishing email, they're all accomplished through social engineering.
[29:29.910 --> 29:38.190]  Even CIA director John Brennan's AOL account was hacked by a 13-year-old using social engineering, not some sophisticated code.
[29:38.190 --> 29:40.190]  It's just part of the hacker's tool bag.
[29:41.410 --> 29:43.850]  So, that's something to realize.
[29:43.850 --> 29:45.790]  That is 100% completely true.
[29:45.970 --> 29:50.510]  Yeah, it's almost like it's a lazy way to characterize the entirety of the situation.
[29:50.730 --> 29:52.910]  That, oh yeah, it's a dismissive way.
[29:53.130 --> 29:54.650]  Like, the election was hacked.
[29:54.870 --> 29:57.910]  And you can be...
[29:57.910 --> 30:16.670]  You can avoid having to give any further detail because a lot of aspects of it were embroiled in tech or had to do with technology and data being released to people who weren't necessarily authorized to look at it.
[30:16.830 --> 30:19.950]  So, it's sort of a lazy way of explaining it.
[30:20.030 --> 30:30.250]  But it's interesting how it was leveraged one way because we wanted to secure the confidence in the electorate in the election that had occurred and the system in general.
[30:30.510 --> 30:39.150]  And then it comes back around through some of this analysis and then it was there in the recount too.
[30:39.670 --> 30:40.310]  Emmanuel?
[30:40.570 --> 30:41.310]  Yes, Bernie, go ahead.
[30:42.570 --> 30:50.030]  You and I listened back in the 70s to Radio Moscow, which was very clever propaganda.
[30:50.350 --> 30:57.770]  And the Soviets and the Russian Republic afterwards have been very good at propaganda.
[30:58.150 --> 31:05.150]  Clever propaganda has been used effectively for generations, especially by the United States.
[31:05.550 --> 31:06.670]  to sway elections.
[31:07.330 --> 31:19.990]  And I think Russia, if they indeed were responsible for this propaganda, and it appears that they may well have been, this was a propaganda coup, in my opinion.
[31:20.270 --> 31:42.750]  One of the other sanctions that Obama inflicted on the Russians, besides kicking out 35 suspected spies under the auspices ambassador type assistance, is a closing of two so-called spy nests, one of which is on the north shore of Long Island, near an area that you frequent,
[31:42.910 --> 31:43.170]  isn't it?
[31:43.410 --> 31:45.790]  I don't frequent it, but I know where it is.
[31:46.870 --> 31:48.190]  It's in Nassau, Bernie.
[31:48.450 --> 31:49.210]  in Nassau County.
[31:49.490 --> 31:53.730]  If one were to drive farther east, you have to go by there.
[31:54.450 --> 31:55.250]  It's kind of interesting.
[31:55.370 --> 31:58.950]  Have you ever checked that place out, or do you have plans on checking it out now?
[31:59.130 --> 32:00.630]  It would be worth checking it out.
[32:00.770 --> 32:05.110]  Well, I might put in a bid for it, as part of the new 2600 complex.
[32:05.770 --> 32:07.030]  We were expanding, too.
[32:07.470 --> 32:09.710]  They have a nice antenna farm there.
[32:09.870 --> 32:10.710]  Oh, I'm sure they do.
[32:11.450 --> 32:15.290]  It's probably being gone over by intelligence of our nation right now.
[32:15.850 --> 32:19.270]  Going back to this whole did Russia hack the U.S.
[32:19.690 --> 32:31.730]  though, I think the mainstream media and a lot of entities are guilty of using this just as a sensationalized thing to get people's attention rather than the actual content of what we learned from it.
[32:31.990 --> 32:33.430]  We could look at the stuff that was leaked.
[32:33.490 --> 32:35.170]  We could look at the repercussions it had.
[32:35.250 --> 32:45.750]  We could see, okay, what can we learn from this peek behind the scenes of one party, one major party during an election, and the fact that's probably identical to what goes on behind the scenes of every major party of every major election.
[32:46.330 --> 32:47.850]  What can we do with this info?
[32:48.030 --> 32:52.250]  But it seems like that's being smokescreened out by just, Russia hacked the election.
[32:53.850 --> 32:58.050]  Yeah, well, you know, let's get into that just a little bit.
[32:58.850 --> 33:07.030]  The phishing scheme that Podesta and his staff fell for is just one part of what the media reports mean when they say that Russia hacked the U.S.
[33:07.090 --> 33:07.370]  election.
[33:07.530 --> 33:11.690]  What the media mean in the current context, according to U.S.
[33:11.790 --> 33:25.890]  intelligence, Russia breached the DNC and Podesta's Gmail through social engineering, stole a bunch of emails, leaked them to WikiLeaks and other websites, which then published the documents, and this created a whole bunch of records for the media to report on,
[33:25.950 --> 33:41.570]  which it did, and then by keeping the Democrats dirt in the headlines, an air of scandals swayed enough American voters away from Clinton, who, confusing the matter further, was embroiled in a separate email scandal of her own, and toward Trump, who ultimately prevailed in the presidential election.
[33:41.870 --> 33:44.990]  But, of course, that doesn't make a catchy headline.
[33:45.030 --> 33:47.670]  So they have to say things like the election was hacked.
[33:48.030 --> 33:51.750]  Now, there's data to support this theory of events, as convoluted as it sounds.
[33:51.910 --> 34:01.670]  A 538 analysis of polls leading up to November 8th found that Clinton's lead over Trump fell 18.5% amid a deluge of WikiLeaks Podesta email releases.
[34:01.930 --> 34:24.690]  And given that Clinton, this is what I mentioned before, effectively lost the electoral college to Trump by just under 80,000 votes across three states, Pennsylvania, Bernie, Michigan, and Wisconsin, one can argue that Russia's alleged hack and subsequent leak created a political environment in which enough voters were swayed away from Clinton to change the course of the election and American
[34:24.690 --> 34:25.590]  history along with it.
[34:25.670 --> 34:27.150]  But again, doesn't make a good headline.
[34:27.370 --> 34:32.830]  And throw a little news in there, a little fake Facebook news for good measure, of course.
[34:33.010 --> 34:38.370]  Russia likely did not, according to available evidence, hack any voting machines, but the White House and U.S.
[34:38.430 --> 34:47.130]  intelligence appear convinced that Russia did at the very least attempt to social engineer our collective perceptions of Clinton and her crew, thereby hacking the election.
[34:47.530 --> 34:51.410]  And ultimately, election hacking is an imperfect, imprecise phrase.
[34:51.410 --> 34:53.710]  It appears to have misled and infuriated others.
[34:55.450 --> 35:00.250]  and it is also, if you want to get in the weeds about it, entirely correct.
[35:00.510 --> 35:03.510]  And that comes from a really good article from the Daily Dot.
[35:03.530 --> 35:05.710]  Is it right to say Russia hacked the U.S.
[35:05.850 --> 35:06.310]  election?
[35:07.190 --> 35:08.930]  Written by Andrew Kautz.
[35:09.270 --> 35:19.670]  And yeah, it's just been so contentious seeing the back and forth that continues to this day and will continue well beyond.
[35:21.030 --> 35:30.030]  Another analysis basically lists the smoking gun evidence, which is not very overwhelming at all.
[35:30.370 --> 35:33.630]  Some intelligence agencies have concluded the Russian government must be behind it.
[35:33.710 --> 35:34.430]  That's point number one.
[35:34.610 --> 35:41.250]  The phishing techniques of the hackers look suspiciously like App 28 and 29, circumstantially connected to Russian government.
[35:41.370 --> 35:41.910]  That's number two.
[35:42.150 --> 35:45.490]  The hackers left the digital fingerprints of having used Cyrillic keyboards.
[35:45.630 --> 35:46.310]  That's number three.
[35:47.090 --> 35:56.750]  And this particular analysis does not dismiss suspicion that the Russian government may have been involved in the DNC hack and subsequent release of emails by WikiLeaks.
[35:57.850 --> 36:01.930]  Yet precisely because the charge is so serious, there must be a demand for hard evidence.
[36:02.130 --> 36:04.590]  And the media all too often is not making such a demand.
[36:04.770 --> 36:09.490]  So yeah, a lot of people are basically complaining that there isn't enough hard evidence.
[36:09.710 --> 36:10.610]  And I think they're right.
[36:10.750 --> 36:11.850]  I think there isn't enough hard evidence.
[36:12.010 --> 36:16.270]  But do we expect that hard evidence to be released to the public at this point?
[36:16.450 --> 36:22.150]  We have something on the order of 19 different agencies reaching the same conclusion according to reports.
[36:22.670 --> 36:32.950]  And we have other people that don't have access to any of this saying with certainty that Russia did not hack the election in any form.
[36:33.350 --> 36:34.410]  Who do you believe?
[36:34.550 --> 36:36.410]  Who do you think might have more information?
[36:36.650 --> 36:38.050]  I'm having a lot of trouble with this.
[36:38.150 --> 36:46.230]  What I don't understand is the certainty with which so many people, many of them on the left, are saying that Russia had nothing to do with this.
[36:46.550 --> 37:04.210]  How do you Julian Assange has said, believe it or not, on Fox News, and oh boy, the alliances that are being forged now, he said that he has 1,000% certainty that this was not leaked by Russia.
[37:05.270 --> 37:09.330]  Yeah, he said this was not leaked to WikiLeaks by Russia.
[37:09.330 --> 37:13.730]  Now, here's the massive problem I have with that statement.
[37:14.190 --> 37:21.470]  WikiLeaks has always protected the anonymity of the people that submit things to it.
[37:22.090 --> 37:26.610]  Now, there's a bottle on the table.
[37:27.290 --> 37:31.050]  One of you, Kyle, or Rob T.
[37:31.170 --> 37:33.350]  Firefly, hand me that bottle.
[37:33.810 --> 37:37.290]  I'll keep your identity completely secret.
[37:37.930 --> 37:38.670]  Just hand it to me.
[37:39.430 --> 37:40.010]  Thank you.
[37:40.450 --> 37:41.030]  Thank you.
[37:41.690 --> 37:44.410]  I can say with 1,000% certainty that Rob T.
[37:44.550 --> 37:46.330]  Firefly did not hand me that bottle.
[37:47.410 --> 37:49.510]  But, Kyle, I have not betrayed your confidence.
[37:49.890 --> 37:51.310]  I haven't given out your name.
[37:51.470 --> 37:54.170]  But now you can figure out who gave me the damn bottle.
[37:54.590 --> 38:00.670]  So, if Julian Assange is going around telling us who didn't leak things, he's pretty much telling us who did.
[38:00.950 --> 38:06.750]  And I have a real problem with that because that betrays a very fundamental principle that Wikileaks is founded upon.
[38:07.250 --> 38:09.930]  So, okay, let's say it's not the Russian government.
[38:10.110 --> 38:14.110]  Maybe there's a second suspect and he's now narked on them.
[38:14.330 --> 38:17.250]  So, maybe if people believe what he
[38:34.070 --> 38:38.270]  who is actually doing the leaking in the first place.
[38:38.350 --> 38:42.030]  That's what we've been told that there's no way even if they wanted to find out that they
[39:34.070 --> 39:37.650]  And it just seems like Trump is being given way too easy a time.
[39:38.350 --> 39:46.270]  And we just can't seem to move past the infighting amongst anyone who's even peripherally connected to the left.
[39:46.490 --> 39:51.590]  And I say that about the Democrats because they are pretty peripherally connected to the left.
[39:53.390 --> 39:55.210]  This is not good for any of us.
[39:55.210 --> 40:03.310]  It's this strategy of it's broken so I'm justified in discrediting it.
[40:03.450 --> 40:10.950]  Not that I'm going to work towards fixing it or I see it as a vehicle that could work someday, ever.
[40:11.210 --> 40:16.170]  It's no, we will not use the vehicle because it isn't the way I like it.
[40:16.170 --> 40:29.090]  And it's like 20,000, 20 million, 200 million different opinions about that, which leads to inertia or lack thereof.
[40:29.190 --> 40:31.250]  There's a tornado coming towards us.
[40:31.250 --> 40:34.490]  And we're gathered around debating what color to paint the damn house.
[40:34.790 --> 40:36.290]  I just came up with that analogy.
[40:36.550 --> 40:36.790]  Good.
[40:36.950 --> 40:37.450]  No, that's good.
[40:37.750 --> 40:39.230]  I'm sure there are better analogies.
[40:39.430 --> 40:41.970]  Write to us, OTH at 2600.com with your analogy.
[40:41.970 --> 40:44.630]  But seriously, folks, Trump is coming.
[40:44.930 --> 40:46.270]  Let's focus on that.
[40:46.430 --> 40:52.050]  And not, you know, the Democrats pretty much spiraled into their own problems right now.
[40:52.210 --> 40:53.390]  They've got to figure that out.
[40:53.430 --> 40:55.550]  But we have bigger battles to fight.
[40:55.750 --> 40:56.570]  Do you agree, Bernie?
[40:57.510 --> 40:57.730]  Yeah.
[40:57.930 --> 41:08.430]  And there's a big debate going on in American journalistic circles right now as to whether it's proper to write and publish that Donald Trump has lied about something.
[41:08.430 --> 41:12.250]  You have to dance around it for journalistic integrity reasons.
[41:12.470 --> 41:13.930]  I don't see what's wrong.
[41:14.210 --> 41:22.230]  If Donald Trump lies about something, or anybody else for that matter, I think journalists should be able to say so-and-so lied.
[41:22.350 --> 41:23.290]  What do you think?
[41:23.790 --> 41:24.750]  Well, absolutely.
[41:24.750 --> 41:25.910]  It's a fact, isn't it?
[41:25.990 --> 41:29.350]  I mean, you know, a lie is something that you can prove.
[41:29.350 --> 41:35.950]  You can say this person knows better, knows the facts, and is saying something that is contrary to the truth.
[41:36.110 --> 41:39.290]  I've seen this done many times with Trump in the media.
[41:39.410 --> 41:40.170]  I've seen it on CNN.
[41:40.170 --> 41:59.250]  I've seen it in the Washington Post, where basically he says something, and either in parentheses, the correction comes right afterwards, such as it isn't whatever it is that he said was, or that he basically is not being forthcoming with the truth.
[41:59.470 --> 42:01.030]  There are nice ways of saying it, I guess.
[42:01.190 --> 42:09.530]  I know the Huffington Post had probably the harshest method of calling him a serial liar after every story about him in italics at the end.
[42:10.170 --> 42:13.490]  But, no, if somebody is lying, I don't care if they're the pope.
[42:13.650 --> 42:15.290]  You know, you call them on it.
[42:15.350 --> 42:16.890]  You say, this is a lie.
[42:17.050 --> 42:20.230]  And if you're the one lying, you better believe you'll be called on it.
[42:20.230 --> 42:24.530]  But in all the cases I've seen, this is something that's easily provable.
[42:25.210 --> 42:31.090]  It's so interesting how the people who do those bugs and banners, they understand the implications.
[42:31.130 --> 42:33.150]  They know that there's some liability.
[42:33.150 --> 42:41.270]  There's some responsibility they bear in making sure that what they put on there is somewhat accurate.
[42:41.270 --> 42:43.850]  Because if it isn't, they need to correct it.
[42:43.950 --> 42:46.970]  I mean, there's an entire system of recourse for that.
[42:47.170 --> 42:49.730]  The same thing went with, I think, print news.
[42:50.770 --> 43:03.070]  And in other contexts with a lot of the reporting, it's been completely okay to run with some exaggeration he's made or on and on and on.
[43:03.230 --> 43:12.270]  Some fabrication or some question, something that is something that we have consensus on, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
[43:12.610 --> 43:14.850]  I'm thinking climate change stuff as well.
[43:14.850 --> 43:27.050]  But, yeah, I think the journalistic duty is to not also fall into the pitfalls of the left of, like, fighting over what is the problem, where the disaster lies.
[43:27.130 --> 43:30.590]  There's lots of them everywhere all the time.
[43:30.590 --> 43:34.250]  But we need to put our energies into the things we can affect.
[43:34.490 --> 43:34.730]  Yeah.
[43:34.870 --> 43:43.090]  While we're doing that, the Republicans march right over us and get their agendas taken care of, even though most people are against them.
[43:43.210 --> 43:43.790]  Keep in mind.
[43:43.990 --> 43:47.230]  Keep in mind that these are facts that people don't seem to remember.
[43:47.390 --> 43:52.010]  In this election, Democrats won two additional Senate seats.
[43:52.190 --> 43:55.670]  In this election, Democrats won seven additional House seats.
[43:55.670 --> 44:01.570]  In this election, Democrats won the presidency by more than 2.9 million votes.
[44:01.890 --> 44:02.350]  Okay?
[44:02.510 --> 44:08.530]  So, you know, when you hear people say that there's a mandate for Republican ways, I'm not seeing it in the numbers.
[44:08.630 --> 44:14.550]  Yeah, I can see it in the crazy system that we have with Electoral College and gerrymandering.
[44:14.710 --> 44:17.310]  But the numbers don't reflect that.
[44:17.410 --> 44:18.370]  And that's just a fact.
[44:18.370 --> 44:26.050]  So, yeah, you know, we can try and become numb to all this and start treating Donald Trump with respect.
[44:26.750 --> 44:31.530]  But I think he's used up all his chances to get respect.
[44:31.730 --> 44:46.150]  And I think that we need to double down more than ever because the things that happen, the things that come out of his mouth now, will have the ability to become our way of life and hurt lots and lots of people.
[44:46.150 --> 44:54.210]  So, yeah, it's not the time to become polite and to not call him a liar when he is a liar.
[44:54.910 --> 44:57.270]  There will be plenty of opportunities to test that.
[44:57.450 --> 45:00.190]  You know, there was something that happened a couple of days ago.
[45:00.310 --> 45:05.190]  As soon as Congress came back into session, they tried to get rid of the Ethics Committee.
[45:05.350 --> 45:06.630]  They tried to...
[45:06.630 --> 45:16.350]  It was the most blatant thing I've ever seen, where they basically just tried to make it impossible for their wrongdoing to be questioned and to be prosecuted.
[45:16.510 --> 45:17.570]  They were going to do it themselves.
[45:17.750 --> 45:18.610]  They would take care of it themselves.
[45:18.950 --> 45:21.510]  They were not going to have an independent authority do this.
[45:21.870 --> 45:25.410]  Donald Trump was right with them, all right, because he was against this as well.
[45:25.550 --> 45:28.390]  But the timing obviously wasn't very good.
[45:28.390 --> 45:31.170]  It was pretty pig-headed, if you ask me.
[45:32.670 --> 45:42.290]  But people, people like you and me, were outraged by this and started calling our representatives, started hounding them and tying up their switchboards.
[45:43.030 --> 45:45.230]  And that had a huge effect.
[45:45.410 --> 45:52.270]  Had a huge effect on Congress, and it had a huge effect on Donald Trump, who tweeted that this was a bad idea.
[45:52.350 --> 45:55.430]  He tweeted it was a bad idea because of that reaction.
[45:55.650 --> 45:57.630]  Not before that reaction, because of it.
[45:57.630 --> 46:02.770]  However, the media, if you look at the media, the people got no credit for this.
[46:02.890 --> 46:04.590]  Donald Trump got all of the credit.
[46:04.770 --> 46:12.110]  He got all the credit for changing the minds of the representatives when they were about to pass this ill-advised bill.
[46:12.930 --> 46:22.050]  And the thousands, millions even, phone calls that came in from ordinary people, that was simply ignored because that was irrelevant.
[46:22.250 --> 46:23.350]  We can't do that.
[46:23.450 --> 46:24.190]  We can't do that.
[46:24.670 --> 46:26.430]  That is not how we win these battles.
[46:26.430 --> 46:29.190]  It makes him kind of an influencer, right?
[46:29.450 --> 46:40.730]  But in this really cheap way, to take what is cool, what people have decided is the prerogative of the people, and then he puts his stamp on it with a tweet.
[46:41.050 --> 46:50.770]  One way or the other, then that bears an influence, starting with however many followers he's got, and then it filters out through other outlets.
[46:50.770 --> 47:05.630]  Now, today, Donald Trump used his Twitter megaphone to ratchet up the debate over WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange's claim that Russia's government was not involved in hacking Hillary Clinton's campaign chairman's Gmail account.
[47:06.230 --> 47:13.470]  In a tweet, the president-elect repeated Assange's claim that a teenage hacker could have done the job just as easily.
[47:13.610 --> 47:16.770]  You know, Russians do have teenage hackers, just pointing that out.
[47:16.770 --> 47:29.290]  And he contended that the Democratic National Committee's own lax IT security, not a foreign cyber attack, was the root cause of the party's embarrassment after a separate hack struck its computer network.
[47:29.610 --> 47:30.730]  Can it be both, though?
[47:31.270 --> 47:34.990]  Can it be a concerted effort and lax security?
[47:35.190 --> 47:36.910]  Because that's usually how these things go.
[47:37.650 --> 47:41.450]  Julian Assange said a, and this is a quote, a 14-year-old could have hacked Podesta.
[47:42.410 --> 47:44.230]  Why was DNC so careless?
[47:44.750 --> 47:46.870]  Also said Russians did not give him the info.
[47:47.010 --> 47:48.230]  He wrote this on Twitter today.
[47:48.590 --> 47:54.050]  After, as I mentioned, misspelling Assange's name as Swaj, deleting it, and then posting a second draft.
[47:54.190 --> 47:59.030]  You see, the Daily Mail in the UK, God bless them, they didn't have to write that.
[47:59.130 --> 48:03.090]  They could have just tried to cover up for Trump not being able to spell.
[48:03.490 --> 48:04.550]  But they didn't.
[48:05.030 --> 48:12.210]  The whistleblowing WikiLeaks website published Podesta's emails, delivering a daily dose of embarrassment to Clinton in the campaign's final days.
[48:12.510 --> 48:14.650]  In fact, we kind of knew this was coming.
[48:14.930 --> 48:17.650]  I believe Julian Assange said this was coming months earlier.
[48:18.230 --> 48:25.830]  In an interview, Assange revealed Podesta's password was, in fact, password, and that he had responded to phishing emails.
[48:26.070 --> 48:35.770]  The WikiLeaks founder said he was 1,000% confident that Russians did not hack the Clinton campaign, adding Barack Obama was trying to delegitimize the Trump administration.
[48:37.530 --> 48:45.530]  These are words from Julian Assange that Donald Trump is trying to delegitimize the Trump administration, as well all of us should do.
[48:45.530 --> 48:47.330]  He is not legitimate.
[48:47.690 --> 48:52.830]  He may have been elected by numbers, but he is not a legitimate president.
[48:53.170 --> 48:59.410]  And every single day ahead, I hope that we all continue to make that point.
[49:00.010 --> 49:00.530]  All right?
[49:00.910 --> 49:06.870]  You know, a popular vote, even if he won the popular vote, does not always bring in something legitimate.
[49:06.870 --> 49:13.770]  A couple hundred years ago, or maybe even more recently, the majority would have supported slavery in a vote.
[49:14.350 --> 49:19.250]  More recently, much more recently, they would have supported segregation.
[49:19.430 --> 49:25.010]  And you can find any number of things that are wrong, that are illegitimate, that are popular.
[49:25.390 --> 49:30.410]  So just because he is the elected president does not make him legitimate.
[49:30.410 --> 49:39.190]  And for Julian Assange to say dismissively that Obama is trying to delegitimize Trump, he's already done that himself.
[49:39.470 --> 49:39.890]  Okay?
[49:40.130 --> 49:42.750]  You don't need Obama to do that, but I'm glad Obama is trying.
[49:42.870 --> 49:46.310]  And I intend to try, and I hope all of us intend to try.
[49:46.510 --> 49:51.030]  Remember, the day after Election Day, we said, one of our goals is to bring down this government.
[49:51.290 --> 49:53.710]  And that's done in countries all around the world.
[49:54.490 --> 50:06.210]  And we should waste no effort in trying to get that to happen, whether it be by scandal, whether it be by constant demonstrations, whether it be by simply tiring them out.
[50:06.410 --> 50:07.150]  All of the above.
[50:07.310 --> 50:07.750]  All of it.
[50:08.130 --> 50:09.430]  All of the possibilities.
[50:09.570 --> 50:11.490]  I see a certain resignation, you know?
[50:11.590 --> 50:14.170]  People are saying, well, there's nothing we can do about it now.
[50:14.290 --> 50:16.550]  No, there's everything you can do about it now.
[50:16.730 --> 50:18.050]  It's just beginning.
[50:18.370 --> 50:19.370]  It's just beginning.
[50:19.590 --> 50:22.910]  And now they have to pay the price for everything that happens.
[50:23.400 --> 50:24.570]  Bernie, are you in?
[50:24.750 --> 50:26.050]  Yeah, I'm in.
[50:26.190 --> 50:35.130]  But if we successfully get... if our American people successfully get Donald Trump impeached, we'll end up with Mike Spence as the president, which is worse.
[50:35.770 --> 50:37.250]  Well, okay.
[50:37.770 --> 50:38.810]  How about this?
[50:39.810 --> 50:43.030]  What's the last thing Pence said in a tweet that you thought was crazy?
[50:44.450 --> 50:46.770]  I think he knows how to keep his mouth shut.
[50:46.770 --> 50:47.830]  Okay, all right.
[50:47.930 --> 50:48.410]  Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[50:48.490 --> 50:53.970]  Right there, right there, you have put your finger on a very important trait of a president.
[50:54.210 --> 50:55.730]  Knows when to keep his mouth shut.
[50:55.990 --> 50:59.430]  Knows when to harness in those feelings and emotions.
[51:00.030 --> 51:03.170]  I'd rather have... you know, I'm no fan of Pence, believe me.
[51:03.370 --> 51:09.510]  But I'd rather have him be the one that has the ultimate decision as to whether or not to destroy the world.
[51:09.990 --> 51:15.050]  You know, I think Trump might lose it a lot easier than someone like Pence.
[51:15.050 --> 51:15.050]  Pence.
[51:15.230 --> 51:17.410]  No fan of Pence, and hopefully he goes down as well.
[51:19.210 --> 51:24.550]  But, you know, if you say something like that, you might hesitate in trying to bring down Trump.
[51:25.230 --> 51:26.070]  You see the danger?
[51:26.750 --> 51:28.010]  Yes, I hear what you're saying.
[51:28.230 --> 51:28.410]  Yeah.
[51:30.030 --> 51:32.270]  Wow, did we really spend almost the entire hour on this?
[51:32.370 --> 51:33.430]  That's pretty incredible.
[51:33.510 --> 51:33.850]  Good rant.
[51:33.950 --> 51:34.590]  That was a great rant.
[51:34.590 --> 51:35.110]  Well, thank you.
[51:35.230 --> 51:36.270]  Sometimes I just get into it.
[51:36.350 --> 51:37.290]  It's not hard, right?
[51:37.470 --> 51:37.810]  It's not.
[51:37.930 --> 51:38.610]  We can all do it.
[51:38.670 --> 51:39.870]  We can all rant and rave.
[51:40.810 --> 51:42.090]  Just, you know, take a moment.
[51:42.090 --> 51:46.470]  Every day, instead of exercising, take a few minutes and rant.
[51:46.650 --> 51:47.650]  It's good for you.
[51:47.790 --> 51:48.430]  It really is.
[51:48.610 --> 51:54.090]  Well, ultimately, it is the people themselves who have the power in this situation, just as they always have.
[51:54.970 --> 51:57.950]  And that's what we can do, is keep talking to one another about it.
[51:58.110 --> 52:05.090]  Keep discussing what we're dissatisfied with, how we can make it better, ideas, you know, organizing, things like that.
[52:05.090 --> 52:08.970]  And that's what we do here on this program, at this station, on this planet.
[52:09.390 --> 52:13.970]  And that's hopefully what's going to get us through the coming storms.
[52:14.130 --> 52:17.510]  You know, just point out the things that bother you.
[52:17.590 --> 52:24.270]  For instance, I was directed to this news story, Washington Post fake news of Russian Vermont power plant hack.
[52:24.270 --> 52:25.610]  I'll just read a little bit of it.
[52:26.010 --> 52:39.010]  Amid all the inflated headlines about Russian hacking of the U.S., all that's in quotes, the Washington, you can see which side this is coming from, the Washington Post was forced to retool an article that falsely claimed a Vermont power plant was hacked by Russian hackers.
[52:42.130 --> 52:44.650]  So, Washington Post was forced to retool an article.
[52:44.970 --> 52:47.650]  First of all, Google pointed me to this article.
[52:47.810 --> 52:48.630]  You know who wrote this article?
[52:48.890 --> 52:49.710]  Breitbart News.
[52:49.950 --> 52:51.070]  Oh, Breitbart.
[52:51.190 --> 52:55.170]  Why in God's name is Google News sending me to Breitbart News?
[52:55.190 --> 52:59.510]  You know, I click on a headline that looks interesting, and I'm reading Breitbart News.
[52:59.630 --> 53:01.590]  Oh, my God, I'd never want to go to that website.
[53:01.890 --> 53:03.530]  It's not legitimate either.
[53:03.530 --> 53:06.330]  So, you know, I don't think that's...
[53:06.790 --> 53:15.170]  There are lots of sites that Google does not send people to because they have a bad track record, because they're a bunch of racist or white supremacists, any number of reasons.
[53:15.270 --> 53:15.790]  Take your pick.
[53:16.190 --> 53:18.730]  But this continues to happen, and it bothers me.
[53:18.890 --> 53:23.770]  But what they mention in the story, they say that the Washington Post was forced to retool an article.
[53:23.970 --> 53:29.430]  What that means is the Washington Post printed a correction, as a legitimate newspaper will do.
[53:29.750 --> 53:33.110]  Russian government hackers do not appear to have targeted Vermont utility.
[53:33.530 --> 53:41.090]  The Post initially reported incorrectly, this is them talking about themselves, that the country's electric grid had been penetrated through a Vermont utility.
[53:41.430 --> 53:52.330]  After Burlington Electric released its statement saying that the potentially compromised laptop had not been connected to the grid, the Post immediately corrected its article and later added an editor's note explaining the change.
[53:52.630 --> 53:54.250]  Are any of those facts wrong?
[53:54.370 --> 53:55.890]  Are there lies anywhere in there?
[53:56.010 --> 53:57.090]  If so, point them out.
[53:57.170 --> 54:03.110]  But it seems like the Post made a mistake, owned up to it, and that's how publishing works.
[54:03.110 --> 54:04.550]  That's how news gathering works.
[54:05.430 --> 54:06.730]  CNN did something similar.
[54:06.870 --> 54:15.270]  They had some kind of an image from a computer game, Fallout 4.
[54:15.410 --> 54:15.950]  I've never played it.
[54:16.070 --> 54:16.810]  I don't know what it's like.
[54:16.890 --> 54:25.870]  But when they're talking about the Russian hack, you see this graphical image of Fallout 4, which is a fictitious game, and it's ancient technology.
[54:26.400 --> 54:32.270]  And everybody was laughing, saying, yeah, this proves that the Russians couldn't have hacked us because this is all fake news.
[54:32.890 --> 54:36.230]  Okay, you know, bad journalism is going to exist no matter what you do.
[54:36.710 --> 54:43.150]  And you can't dismiss the story because a reporter put something stupid on instead.
[54:43.150 --> 54:57.630]  They chose, I guess, a stock image that looked vintage, but actually it was art for a video game, which it may have worked visually, but it kind of throws you off and thus lends to it being less credible.
[54:57.790 --> 54:59.070]  But there's a lot of sites that...
[54:59.070 --> 54:59.770]  It's B-roll, you know?
[54:59.830 --> 55:01.850]  There's a lot of sites that put goofy pictures...
[55:01.850 --> 55:11.670]  Like, the register, every picture is probably stock art from other realms that have something to do with it, but they're generally not from the story itself.
[55:11.670 --> 55:12.170]  What's that, Bernie?
[55:12.870 --> 55:13.670]  From the Matrix.
[55:13.830 --> 55:16.510]  How many times have we seen a news story about...
[55:16.510 --> 55:16.930]  Right.
[55:17.110 --> 55:17.410]  Yes.
[55:17.590 --> 55:21.230]  ...about hackers, and it's some image from the movie The Matrix.
[55:21.350 --> 55:23.130]  Cascading numbers, yeah, yeah.
[55:23.370 --> 55:27.970]  I prefer the stock photo hackers that are like a guy in a suit wearing a balaclava sitting at his computer.
[55:28.190 --> 55:29.090]  Right, or a hoodie.
[55:29.330 --> 55:29.650]  A hoodie.
[55:29.650 --> 55:31.230]  Yeah, so the...
[55:31.690 --> 55:32.810]  Okay, well, you know what?
[55:32.990 --> 55:35.490]  We have a lot more to go through, but we're out of time.
[55:36.050 --> 55:37.830]  Fortunately, we have the whole year ahead of us.
[55:37.970 --> 55:39.110]  It's the beginning of 2017.
[55:39.330 --> 55:41.090]  It's the beginning of God knows what.
[55:41.730 --> 55:48.330]  But we all have power, and we all have a voice, and whether or not you agree with what you hear, speak your mind.
[55:48.650 --> 56:03.810]  But just listen to the facts, listen to opinions, come to your conclusions as to what to believe, and don't just follow with those you feel are clued in in one way or another.
[56:04.030 --> 56:05.230]  Question them as well.
[56:05.490 --> 56:06.290]  Question us.
[56:07.010 --> 56:12.990]  We present what we believe and what we see based on the facts that we're presented with.
[56:13.130 --> 56:14.810]  So it's a developing story.
[56:15.110 --> 56:19.990]  It's going to be continuing, and hopefully we'll be here throughout to bring that to you.
[56:19.990 --> 56:24.530]  Again, our email address, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[56:25.310 --> 56:26.750]  That's how you get in touch with us.
[56:27.510 --> 56:29.410]  And, Rob, it looks like you have something to say.
[56:29.810 --> 56:31.810]  2600 meetings everywhere this Friday.
[56:32.430 --> 56:33.790]  2600.com slash meetings.
[56:34.030 --> 56:35.230]  The first meetings of the year.
[56:35.910 --> 56:36.390]  Wow.
[56:36.510 --> 56:44.190]  And this will almost certainly be the last meeting in the Citigroup building in New York City as they're doing renovations for the next couple of years.
[56:44.190 --> 56:46.290]  But we will have a new home set very soon.
[56:46.550 --> 56:46.850]  Bye.
[56:49.990 --> 56:50.550]  Have a good night.
[56:50.670 --> 56:52.010]  Stay tuned for The Personal Computer Show.
[56:54.790 --> 56:56.670]  That's six weeks on me.
[56:59.690 --> 57:01.690]  Home is where there's danger.
[57:04.270 --> 57:06.230]  Send it to your friend.
[57:09.210 --> 57:10.810]  State of the nation.
[57:13.710 --> 57:15.670]  The realm you never use.
[57:19.510 --> 57:21.770]  Life begins when you're ready to face it.
[57:27.690 --> 57:33.050]  This is Julian Assange, and you're listening to Off The Hook at WBAI New York.
[57:50.280 --> 57:52.640]  I know you've got potential.
[57:54.960 --> 57:56.700]  So what's your price?
[57:56.760 --> 57:57.680]  I'll pay it.
[58:00.020 --> 58:02.360]  Consumer got it to help you.
[58:04.280 --> 58:06.040]  Find a credit card.
[58:06.200 --> 58:08.120]  Have some...
[58:08.120 --> 58:09.040]  Fun.
[58:09.380 --> 58:11.680]  Time I had a washout.
[58:13.880 --> 58:16.240]  Cold star, it's not my headroom.
[58:19.060 --> 58:21.280]  Collecting things I don't need.
[58:23.220 --> 58:25.380]  In our room I never use.
[58:29.510 --> 58:31.670]  Life begins when you're ready to face it.
[58:31.770 --> 58:34.830]  I've changed my mind because I'm stuck on the state of the nation.
[59:06.800 --> 59:08.980]  Life begins when you're ready to face it.
[59:08.980 --> 59:12.100]  I've changed my mind because I'm stuck on the state of the nation.
[59:29.980 --> 59:30.460]  Fun.