[00:00.080 --> 00:14.010]  Joining us in the studio will be musical alchemist and DJ extraordinaire, DJ Chela, DJ, dancer, writer, actor, and downtown darling, Belinda Becker, and hip-hop historian, Sasha.
[00:14.350 --> 00:20.020]  They'll be sharing musical recipes and survival tips for the upcoming political climate.
[00:20.470 --> 00:29.080]  That's The Sweet Spot, only on WBAI 99.5 FM, listener-sponsored community radio.
[00:37.500 --> 00:41.560]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:41.780 --> 00:43.960]  The time is just a little bit after 8 o'clock.
[00:44.540 --> 00:46.280]  It's time for Off the Hook.
[01:10.850 --> 01:12.370]  I hope that's understood.
[01:12.570 --> 01:13.370]  Monday, let's go!
[02:35.550 --> 02:37.250]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:37.390 --> 02:38.830]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:39.010 --> 02:42.710]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by a packed house.
[02:42.790 --> 02:43.070]  Rob T.
[02:43.210 --> 02:43.610]  Firefly.
[02:43.790 --> 02:44.390]  Good evening.
[02:44.590 --> 02:44.870]  Kyle.
[02:45.370 --> 02:45.830]  Hi.
[02:46.610 --> 02:48.550]  Mitch Altman is back again this week.
[02:48.850 --> 02:49.070]  Hi.
[02:49.770 --> 02:51.270]  We're joined by Voltaire.
[02:51.850 --> 02:52.190]  Hey.
[02:52.410 --> 02:53.250]  Haven't seen you in a while.
[02:53.830 --> 02:54.710]  And Alex.
[02:55.310 --> 02:55.750]  Greetings.
[02:56.010 --> 02:57.830]  You're here to give us a legal perspective on things.
[02:58.170 --> 02:58.850]  Something like that.
[02:58.890 --> 02:59.590]  Because we're going to need it.
[03:00.050 --> 03:01.450]  Jim is out there in the background.
[03:01.630 --> 03:01.870]  Hello!
[03:02.490 --> 03:07.130]  And on the phone, joining us from some mysterious location is Bernie S.
[03:07.650 --> 03:08.870]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[03:09.730 --> 03:09.950]  Wow.
[03:10.070 --> 03:10.230]  Okay.
[03:10.270 --> 03:12.690]  Well, we've taken up a good part of the show just introducing ourselves.
[03:13.150 --> 03:14.570]  But we have a lot to talk about.
[03:14.810 --> 03:16.390]  We have some history.
[03:16.650 --> 03:19.210]  Well, of course, it's two days until D-Day.
[03:19.270 --> 03:20.030]  We know that much.
[03:20.610 --> 03:25.150]  But there's other nicer history that you've probably heard of by now.
[03:25.730 --> 03:28.150]  Who's got that post headline?
[03:29.190 --> 03:29.990]  It was on the floor.
[03:30.330 --> 03:31.210]  You guys didn't pick it up?
[03:31.830 --> 03:33.550]  I asked you to pick it up when we came in.
[03:33.590 --> 03:34.170]  No one picked it up?
[03:34.310 --> 03:35.650]  It's on the floor where it belongs.
[03:35.790 --> 03:37.270]  Well, can you pick it up and read it, please?
[03:37.330 --> 03:40.450]  Because this is how we introduce our news stories.
[03:41.450 --> 03:42.890]  It's not even in the room anymore?
[03:43.370 --> 03:43.730]  My God!
[03:43.730 --> 03:45.770]  It's been collected by an enthusiastic souvenir hunter.
[03:45.930 --> 03:47.990]  You ask people to do things, and it winds up someplace...
[03:47.990 --> 03:50.350]  Okay, well, basically, does anybody remember what it said?
[03:50.550 --> 03:53.190]  Yeah, it said, basically, Obama let a traitor go.
[03:53.510 --> 03:55.190]  Obama let a traitor go.
[03:55.350 --> 03:55.550]  Yay!
[03:56.310 --> 04:06.890]  Okay, and in translation to the civilized world, what that means is that Chelsea Manning's sentence has been greatly reduced.
[04:07.650 --> 04:13.190]  Well, actually, Alex, I'm going to ask for your expertise on this, because there's all kinds of words floating around.
[04:13.190 --> 04:18.050]  There's commutation, there's clemency, there's dismissal, there's pardon.
[04:18.970 --> 04:21.430]  Which one is this, and what does it mean?
[04:21.630 --> 04:29.830]  Well, I'm glad you asked, Emmanuel, because there actually is a very, very big and, I think, interesting difference between a pardon and a commutation.
[04:29.830 --> 04:39.070]  Now, a pardon, generally, and this is not the case with Chelsea Manning, a pardon would necessarily excuse a past bad act or is necessarily an act of forgiveness.
[04:39.410 --> 04:47.250]  A pardon is also, by its nature, a political action done by an executive branch, either a governor or the president of the United States.
[04:47.250 --> 04:54.830]  A commutation, on the other hand, still allows the underlying offense to stand, but it reduces a harsh punishment.
[04:55.650 --> 04:59.850]  And commutations are, by their nature, not necessarily a political act.
[05:00.110 --> 05:05.050]  They are generally something, and this is what the mainstream media has not necessarily been reporting upon.
[05:05.510 --> 05:07.370]  Commutations are generally earned.
[05:07.370 --> 05:12.430]  And I think, in this context, that deserves extra special consideration.
[05:13.410 --> 05:13.930]  Okay.
[05:14.870 --> 05:20.190]  So, I'm sorry, I lost track because of all this people plugging things in here.
[05:20.350 --> 05:22.270]  Which one did Chelsea Manning just get?
[05:22.290 --> 05:24.450]  Chelsea Manning's sentence was commuted.
[05:24.610 --> 05:26.130]  It was a commutation of her sentence.
[05:26.290 --> 05:30.890]  So, it was essentially reduced almost to, well, she'll be released in a few months.
[05:31.110 --> 05:33.750]  So, it was almost entirely commuted.
[05:34.010 --> 05:34.490]  Okay.
[05:34.750 --> 05:42.410]  And obviously, this is not being greeted well by members of other political perspectives.
[05:42.430 --> 05:42.910]  Excusations.
[05:44.130 --> 05:49.330]  We've, have we heard any kind of news from the future president?
[05:51.890 --> 05:53.250]  About Chelsea Manning?
[05:53.490 --> 05:54.170]  Any comment on this?
[05:54.270 --> 05:54.650]  Oh, yeah.
[05:54.790 --> 05:57.370]  He's not a big fan of this action, not necessarily.
[05:57.730 --> 05:59.210]  Yeah, that's what I've seen.
[05:59.370 --> 06:06.610]  I don't, I can't recall any specific tweets, which generally seem to be the official method of presidential elect communiques.
[06:07.090 --> 06:08.530]  I don't think, no, I don't think he's tweeted on this yet.
[06:08.530 --> 06:11.490]  I think that's, he's been tweet silent.
[06:11.490 --> 06:14.330]  We know he can't resist the temptation.
[06:14.570 --> 06:15.370]  I mean, it's going to happen.
[06:15.530 --> 06:18.630]  There's some way it's going to come up and he's going to have to weigh in on it.
[06:18.730 --> 06:19.770]  Yeah, at some point.
[06:19.910 --> 06:22.210]  But word has it he's not pleased.
[06:24.230 --> 06:40.710]  And I've heard comments from all kinds of other people, John McCain being one of them, saying this is a very grave mistake, something very, but you have to, you have to really wonder what kind of reaction it's going to get overall from the American people,
[06:40.770 --> 06:41.090]  for instance.
[06:41.090 --> 06:48.230]  I wonder, Chelsea being released in May, what kind of a country is she being released to?
[06:48.310 --> 06:51.530]  What kind of a life does she have to look forward to?
[06:51.610 --> 07:01.250]  Will she be safe walking around in freedom in this land with so many angry people out there thinking that she's a traitor?
[07:01.250 --> 07:04.530]  I mean, you know, you don't have to go far to find people that believe this.
[07:05.270 --> 07:07.010]  And I worry about that.
[07:07.110 --> 07:08.410]  I worry about her safety.
[07:09.770 --> 07:14.490]  Has anyone been talking about what the specifics will be of her release?
[07:14.970 --> 07:17.270]  I don't think we've heard anything about that whatsoever.
[07:17.670 --> 07:20.290]  I think we only know that there will be a release.
[07:20.930 --> 07:25.370]  But I'm not entirely sure that anybody's really given that amount of forethought to it.
[07:25.370 --> 07:27.630]  I think you raise a really, really interesting point.
[07:28.890 --> 07:41.470]  But I also think, as well, what we have to remember here is that this is a very deliberate action taken by the president that has been probably given a great deal of thought over the last several months.
[07:42.210 --> 07:44.490]  And, of course, we'll go into this, I think, a little bit later.
[07:45.330 --> 07:50.250]  The prime focus of the media has been the distinction between Snowden and Manning, of course.
[07:50.410 --> 07:54.770]  And I think the president's distinctions have been, for the most part, entirely defensible.
[07:55.670 --> 08:03.910]  But I don't necessarily know if anybody's given any real thought to what kind of special protection she's going to need once she is released.
[08:04.070 --> 08:08.470]  Because, as we know, Joe Biden said the other day, he really has no idea.
[08:08.670 --> 08:11.290]  Nobody has any idea what this administration is going to do.
[08:11.350 --> 08:25.150]  And if the presidential appointments are any indication of what we have in store for the future, then I think both the right and the left are all going to need some extra special protections and some additional shoulders to cry on.
[08:25.370 --> 08:33.650]  Yeah, and I think it's pretty clear that she was probably somewhat surprised, definitely wanting this to be the outcome.
[08:34.790 --> 08:47.950]  But having been in this position, probably was mentally preparing, probably, for what seemed likely beforehand, which is the prospect of serving out 30 or more years.
[08:48.390 --> 09:02.950]  So mentally preparing for this eventuality, I think, is probably new and probably something that she hadn't been preparing for, given the circumstance and what it probably took mentally as far as took out of her mentally to prepare for the situation.
[09:03.170 --> 09:05.130]  Well, she was looking at a release of 2045.
[09:05.130 --> 09:08.890]  So, yeah, it's very different to be released in 2017.
[09:10.030 --> 09:13.770]  So there were indications that this might happen.
[09:13.950 --> 09:19.650]  There were indications that Obama might actually take this action.
[09:19.650 --> 09:22.270]  So it's not completely a surprise, but I was surprised.
[09:22.270 --> 09:24.310]  I didn't really think that was going to happen.
[09:24.330 --> 09:28.030]  I didn't think he would take that step, which is a bold step, I have to say.
[09:28.270 --> 09:28.450]  Walter.
[09:28.730 --> 09:33.350]  Another issue is that, unique to America, we don't have universal health care.
[09:33.530 --> 09:39.850]  So Chelsea Manning, as a trans person, needs medical access to hormone treatment.
[09:39.850 --> 09:46.510]  And when she's out of federal incarceration, there's no guarantee that she'll get that.
[09:47.350 --> 09:52.730]  That's kind of ironic that she, you know, in prison, she'll get maybe better health care than outside.
[09:53.090 --> 09:53.270]  Sure.
[09:53.770 --> 09:58.110]  You know, we talk about prison and we talk about her life once she's released from prison.
[09:58.910 --> 10:04.010]  One of the things I did in a prior life, actually, when I first graduated law school, I was a law clerk.
[10:04.750 --> 10:05.330]  Excuse me.
[10:05.510 --> 10:06.830]  And I was a law clerk at the U.S.
[10:06.990 --> 10:09.570]  Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces for the chief judge of that court.
[10:09.850 --> 10:12.530]  And we were essentially the Supreme Court of the military.
[10:12.830 --> 10:17.530]  All courts martial appeal would go to, like, a criminal court of appeals for a service branch.
[10:17.530 --> 10:23.250]  And then if there were constitutional issues of a certain magnitude, the petition would come up to the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces.
[10:23.650 --> 10:32.210]  Now, when I was a law clerk there, we dealt with, I would say, a considerable amount of petitions from prisoners in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.
[10:32.670 --> 10:41.790]  And a lot of these petitioners complained that the conditions of their confinement violated the Eighth Amendment because they constituted cruel and unusual punishment.
[10:41.930 --> 10:52.590]  So I think whatever she's going to be facing when she is released, it's got to be a hell of a lot better than what she is suffering right now at Fort Leavenworth.
[10:52.810 --> 10:58.790]  Whether she's in solitary confinement or allowed to interact with the general population, it's a pretty miserable place.
[10:58.790 --> 11:06.930]  The conditions that I had read about, that prisoners had described, it did not sound like any place that you would want to be spending your life until 2045.
[11:07.050 --> 11:13.990]  So this has got to come as a great surprise and give her a tremendous amount of heart if she can hold on for the next several months.
[11:13.990 --> 11:16.750]  And it can be described as a bold move by Obama.
[11:16.990 --> 11:19.450]  Even Edward Snowden himself tweeted, a heartfelt thanks, Obama.
[11:20.050 --> 11:30.250]  But it does bear keeping in mind that it's Obama who, under his direct orders, she's been kept prisoner for, what, seven years in these cruel and unusual conditions.
[11:30.690 --> 11:34.630]  So, you know, I'm not ready to hold him up as a big hero of free speech yet.
[11:34.650 --> 11:39.730]  But, you know, he does deserve what credit there is for reversing his earlier mistake.
[11:39.730 --> 11:43.030]  Yeah, people don't be afraid to say, yeah, he deserves credit.
[11:43.150 --> 11:47.730]  But a lot of people are, you know, they don't want to thank a politician for any circumstance.
[11:47.910 --> 11:49.170]  But sometimes they do the right thing.
[11:49.310 --> 11:50.370]  This is one of the right things.
[11:50.470 --> 11:52.990]  Yes, there's a lot of other right things he's not doing that he could be doing.
[11:53.170 --> 11:56.610]  But let's at least acknowledge that this was the right thing to do.
[11:56.730 --> 11:58.090]  Well, it absolutely is.
[11:58.190 --> 12:11.270]  But I don't think it necessarily erases the fact that he has been, or rather he has, according to some, really misused the Espionage Act to prosecute whistleblowers, to go after journalists.
[12:11.790 --> 12:16.690]  You know, this has been a very notable stain, I think, on his presidency.
[12:16.870 --> 12:21.710]  This misuse of the Espionage Act has been used more times under his presidency than any other president.
[12:21.870 --> 12:26.130]  So I don't think we can necessarily whitewash everything that he's done in the past.
[12:26.130 --> 12:38.070]  This is a signal, I think, however, that perhaps he may be admitting to himself and to the country that he has been tough on whistleblowers and too tough on whistleblowers, and especially journalists.
[12:38.330 --> 12:42.130]  Now, it's also a nod to the journalistic community as well.
[12:42.330 --> 12:47.330]  And in the current climate, the new administration is not necessarily a fan of journalists.
[12:47.330 --> 12:49.610]  Because by commuting the sentence of...
[12:49.610 --> 12:50.650]  You're getting that, huh?
[12:50.930 --> 12:52.270]  I've gotten that a little bit.
[12:52.430 --> 13:05.650]  So by commuting the sentence of Chelsea Manning, he is, in a sense, currying a little bit of favor for the Democrats with the press corps, and making them more on the side of the Democrats than they are of the Republicans, which doesn't necessarily take a great deal of effort.
[13:05.730 --> 13:08.830]  But was the press corps even supporting whistleblowers?
[13:09.130 --> 13:15.730]  I think a lot of the media in this country was as, if not more so, anti-whistleblower than the president.
[13:15.730 --> 13:16.430]  That's true.
[13:16.550 --> 13:21.770]  I think there was a small subset of the press that was very much in favor of whistleblowers.
[13:21.930 --> 13:32.010]  But if you look at places like the Intercept, places like the AP, a lot of these places over the last several years have developed secure means of communications with whistleblowers.
[13:32.150 --> 13:37.250]  They're using things like SecureTrop in order to facilitate the leaking of documents.
[13:37.450 --> 13:42.810]  So I think that they've come around to the fact that this is the new world, the brave new world of how news is broken.
[13:42.810 --> 13:47.190]  And so I think journalists are going to rely on this to a very large extent.
[13:47.570 --> 13:49.550]  Bernie, I know you have something to weigh in on.
[13:49.950 --> 13:54.310]  Alex, you're pretty familiar with the... I guess it's called the UCMJ.
[13:54.770 --> 13:56.490]  What is the UCMJ called?
[13:58.070 --> 14:00.250]  The Uniform Code of Military Justice.
[14:00.850 --> 14:01.350]  Thank you.
[14:01.530 --> 14:11.690]  It's very equivalent in that form of justice to what the Department of Justice has with regard to supervised release.
[14:12.030 --> 14:14.090]  You know, I think everybody who ends a sentence...
[14:14.090 --> 14:16.890]  Almost... I think it might even be mandatory.
[14:17.090 --> 14:24.170]  Everybody finishes a sentence with the, you know, the U.S.
[14:24.250 --> 14:30.850]  Criminal Code, Department of Justice, has to serve a period... after they serve their prison sentence, serves a period of supervised release.
[14:31.070 --> 14:33.310]  Is there anything within the UCMJ like that?
[14:33.310 --> 14:37.970]  I don't recall the specific sections of the UCMJ on that point.
[14:38.150 --> 14:39.630]  I'm sure that there are.
[14:39.850 --> 14:52.330]  But you do bring up a very interesting point in general with respect to commutations, Bernie, because commutations can be conditioned on good behavior after the commutation of a sentence.
[14:52.770 --> 14:56.550]  So... and let's say a condition of the commutation is violated.
[14:57.030 --> 15:01.010]  And I'm not aware that there are any conditions on Chelsea Manning's commutation.
[15:01.010 --> 15:02.690]  However, they could be forthcoming.
[15:02.790 --> 15:03.750]  This is still new news.
[15:04.890 --> 15:11.690]  If those conditions were violated, the entire sentence that was originally imposed could be reimposed on an offender.
[15:12.330 --> 15:14.050]  So it's a crazy point.
[15:14.430 --> 15:18.510]  So we should find out what conditions there will be placed on her as soon as we can.
[15:18.730 --> 15:23.270]  And if there were conditions, there would be the Trump administration that determines whether or not they've been violated.
[15:24.390 --> 15:24.810]  That's right.
[15:25.150 --> 15:25.990]  Or his DOJ.
[15:26.250 --> 15:27.370]  That would be interesting.
[15:28.090 --> 15:35.270]  Although, one thing the Trump administration cannot do, according to a post on ChelseaManning.org, a future president cannot reverse the commutation.
[15:35.630 --> 15:39.930]  So the commutation itself will stand, but who knows what will get hooked to it.
[15:40.110 --> 15:40.590]  Well, okay.
[15:40.670 --> 15:42.950]  So that brings up an interesting question.
[15:42.950 --> 15:54.090]  Because if you've been following Twitter a bit, you may have noticed that Julian Assange, or WikiLeaks actually, tweeted something.
[15:54.090 --> 15:57.410]  You know, they don't have dates on tweets when you print them out for some reason.
[15:57.870 --> 16:00.390]  But basically, this was, I believe, a couple of months ago.
[16:00.910 --> 16:04.990]  If Obama grants Manning clemency, Assange will agree to U.S.
[16:05.090 --> 16:07.830]  prison in exchange, despite its clear unlawfulness.
[16:08.210 --> 16:10.330]  Now, Alex, let me ask you, clemency.
[16:11.110 --> 16:12.630]  What's the definition of the word clemency?
[16:13.010 --> 16:20.350]  Well, clemency is generally, in common parlance, used as a synonym for the words mercy or leniency.
[16:20.350 --> 16:24.530]  It is, however, a term of art under the UCMJ.
[16:24.690 --> 16:25.510]  A term of what now?
[16:25.590 --> 16:26.370]  A term of art.
[16:26.550 --> 16:29.210]  Not necessarily artistic in itself, but a legal term of art.
[16:29.950 --> 16:32.210]  Clemency is an unusual situation.
[16:32.690 --> 16:34.970]  We're talking about a lot of procedural things here.
[16:36.370 --> 16:37.810]  And I think it's right to.
[16:38.070 --> 16:41.310]  And this is also stuff that the mainstream media hasn't really gone into.
[16:41.450 --> 16:47.630]  But when somebody is convicted of a crime under the UCMJ, they're convicted by a military tribunal.
[16:47.630 --> 16:51.050]  That military tribunal is presided over by a military judge.
[16:51.250 --> 16:57.950]  The military judge is a lawyer for whatever branch of the armed services is being served or is bringing the prosecution.
[16:58.270 --> 17:05.870]  So, generally, these are lawyers in the JAG Corps that have risen to the status of either light colonel, lieutenant colonel, or full bird colonel.
[17:05.970 --> 17:07.310]  They're seasoned lawyers.
[17:07.470 --> 17:14.590]  They convict this person, but this colonel generally serves at the pleasure and the privilege of the commanding officer of the base.
[17:14.630 --> 17:16.770]  So there is a chain of command issue here.
[17:16.770 --> 17:28.170]  And the commanding officer, then, has an opportunity to review the sentence imposed on any particular defendant and can offer clemency, can reduce the sentence.
[17:28.310 --> 17:35.290]  Clemency, generally, in the context of the UCMJ, is a reduction in the sentence imposed by a military judge.
[17:35.450 --> 17:35.630]  Okay.
[17:35.630 --> 17:56.250]  So what we have here, if we are to apply that specific term of art, is necessarily compliant with both the common term, clemency, meaning mercy or leniency, and the legal term, clemency, as it's found under the UCMJ, which is a reduction in the sentence of a particular offender.
[17:56.250 --> 18:11.050]  So, that being said, it does, in fact, seem like all the conditions preceded to Julian Assange coming to the United States or voluntarily offering himself for extradition have been satisfied.
[18:11.290 --> 18:11.590]  Wow.
[18:11.650 --> 18:13.990]  I feel like I just heard an argument in a court of law.
[18:15.210 --> 18:16.650]  Can I approach the bench?
[18:17.230 --> 18:32.010]  So, okay, what you're saying, I mean, basically, you're saying that certain people have the right to grant clemency, and obviously, the conditional statement here in this WikiLeaks tweet was, if Obama grants Manning clemency, has that if condition been met?
[18:32.250 --> 18:33.950]  In my opinion, yes.
[18:34.270 --> 18:37.330]  Clemency, leniency, both the legal and the common term of art.
[18:37.510 --> 18:40.170]  I'm sorry, and the common term, clemency, I think it has been said.
[18:40.250 --> 18:41.510]  So, it's an if-then thing.
[18:41.510 --> 18:46.670]  If Obama grants Manning clemency, then Assange will agree to U.S.
[18:46.750 --> 18:47.770]  prison in exchange.
[18:48.010 --> 18:48.930]  There's no way out.
[18:49.130 --> 18:51.490]  I'm trying to see if there's a way he can wriggle out of this.
[18:51.570 --> 18:57.850]  The way he can wriggle out of this is if he then double backs on himself and says, well, by clemency, I meant a pardon.
[18:58.010 --> 19:00.210]  I meant that her actions should have been excused.
[19:00.210 --> 19:02.430]  But clemency, I just asked for the definition of clemency.
[19:02.590 --> 19:02.910]  You did.
[19:02.990 --> 19:03.610]  And you're a lawyer.
[19:03.850 --> 19:04.250]  That's right.
[19:04.250 --> 19:06.150]  So, those definitions, they're written in stone.
[19:07.330 --> 19:10.210]  And it seems that that fits the definition.
[19:10.210 --> 19:14.170]  The definition, it's a very clear thing, mercy, a reducing sentence.
[19:14.470 --> 19:15.870]  That's absolutely right.
[19:15.870 --> 19:17.310]  And it's not a pardon.
[19:17.810 --> 19:19.310]  So, he didn't say...
[19:19.310 --> 19:19.930]  He didn't ask for a pardon.
[19:19.950 --> 19:20.750]  He didn't ask for a pardon.
[19:20.910 --> 19:22.970]  He said, if clemency is granted.
[19:23.110 --> 19:24.190]  Clemency has been granted.
[19:24.390 --> 19:24.650]  Okay.
[19:24.870 --> 19:25.770]  Absolutely, here.
[19:25.970 --> 19:32.450]  Now, there is not the immediate release of Chelsea Manning, and there hasn't been a pardon, but there definitely has been mercy.
[19:32.750 --> 19:34.630]  Bernie, I know you have some information on this.
[19:34.710 --> 19:35.350]  Is there an update?
[19:36.210 --> 19:37.470]  On which aspect?
[19:37.670 --> 19:42.650]  On Julian Assange's fulfilling that particular promise.
[19:43.050 --> 19:45.210]  Well, he has not...
[19:45.210 --> 19:52.570]  I don't think he has said anything about it, but a spokesperson has said that the conditions have not really been met.
[19:52.570 --> 19:56.410]  So, we'll have to see how this plays out.
[19:56.610 --> 20:00.910]  I mean, he doesn't have to go anywhere if he doesn't want to, but he said what he said.
[20:02.770 --> 20:03.290]  Okay.
[20:03.690 --> 20:13.930]  My understanding is that somehow they are reading into this condition that clemency meant the immediate release of Chelsea Manning.
[20:14.970 --> 20:20.490]  And that doesn't necessarily make sense in the context of the tweet that Emmanuel had just read back to us.
[20:20.490 --> 20:24.990]  You know, if you're going to be offering yourself up to be sent to prison, you would get it clear.
[20:25.210 --> 20:35.870]  You would make it very clear what you're saying, because as we're nitpicking this, if Obama grants Manning clemency, Obama granted Manning clemency yesterday, I don't see a way out.
[20:36.130 --> 20:36.490]  Voltaire.
[20:36.490 --> 20:51.050]  I think there's a second if statement in that tweet, and that's in exchange for, and Julian Assange, there was no, the Obama administration didn't, they probably didn't even think about Julian Assange, like, he couldn't care less about Julian Assange,
[20:51.050 --> 20:52.130]  when he made the decision.
[20:52.210 --> 20:54.330]  It was a political decision, and I feel like it was a great one.
[20:54.650 --> 21:03.190]  But when, when, we shouldn't be rooting for, even if we have our differences with Julian Assange over, allowing his organization to be politicized, to help Trump.
[21:03.610 --> 21:07.710]  I still think we should not be rooting for Julian Assange to be sent to prison.
[21:07.970 --> 21:13.290]  No, I don't think anybody here is, but obviously people are going to look at this statement.
[21:13.830 --> 21:17.210]  And if he backtracks from that, it speaks to his integrity quite a bit.
[21:17.330 --> 21:22.590]  So I'm just looking, you know, if you say something like this, what is the plan when this actually happens?
[21:22.610 --> 21:25.870]  And if there are no charges against Assange in the first place, then great.
[21:26.030 --> 21:28.070]  Walk away and this is over.
[21:28.910 --> 21:29.770]  I worry.
[21:29.950 --> 21:34.150]  I worry that he may think that he has a friend in Trump.
[21:34.330 --> 21:37.030]  He certainly helped him out quite a bit.
[21:37.490 --> 21:42.710]  But he's in for a rude awakening when that guy actually gets in power.
[21:42.910 --> 21:48.550]  I think regarding Julian Assange's relationship to Trump, he's actually been pretty clever about it.
[21:48.630 --> 21:49.490]  He's been ambiguous.
[21:49.750 --> 21:54.690]  If you compare it to somebody like Kim.com, who is an enemy of the U.S.
[21:54.730 --> 22:04.810]  government, I think there's zero chance that Kim.com is going to be able to get clemency, or a pardon from Trump, because Trump is so friendly with the MPAA.
[22:05.170 --> 22:11.790]  But he's become a total Trump fanboy, where if you look at Julian Assange, he's kind of been playing a bit both sides.
[22:11.930 --> 22:14.390]  And I think that's actually somewhat commendable.
[22:14.390 --> 22:15.990]  I haven't seen him playing the other side very much.
[22:15.990 --> 22:18.950]  I haven't seen him really say much against Trump at all.
[22:18.950 --> 22:24.390]  I'd like to, and I think we probably will, once he finally sees Trump's true colors.
[22:24.690 --> 22:34.690]  But regardless, you know, I'm just worried for his safety at this point, because he's put himself in a situation where he's promised to do something, and certainly the Trump administration would pursue him, I believe.
[22:35.650 --> 22:36.790]  Yeah, that's right.
[22:36.910 --> 22:41.450]  In fact, there's brand new news coming out, I think, really within the last hour.
[22:41.450 --> 22:45.310]  This is a statement from Barry Pollock, who is Assange's U.S.
[22:45.390 --> 22:45.670]  attorney.
[22:45.870 --> 22:46.010]  Okay.
[22:46.310 --> 22:53.750]  And it says, quote, Mr. Assange welcomes the announcement that Ms. Manning's sentence will be reduced and she will be released in May, comma.
[22:54.010 --> 22:56.330]  But this is well short of what he sought.
[22:56.570 --> 23:01.750]  Mr. Assange had called for Chelsea Manning to receive clemency and be released immediately.
[23:02.130 --> 23:09.650]  So they're reading in another conjunction into this tweet that I frankly just do not think is there.
[23:09.650 --> 23:10.910]  Yeah, I mean, it's one tweet.
[23:11.070 --> 23:13.130]  I don't know if there was a second tweet that immediately followed this one.
[23:13.190 --> 23:16.530]  I don't see it indicated here, but now there's no clue of that.
[23:16.710 --> 23:20.150]  But again, how legally binding is somebody tweeting this?
[23:20.530 --> 23:21.430]  Not very much.
[23:21.650 --> 23:30.330]  It's definitely obvious, or it appears that his offer was not a part of the commutation of Chelsea Manning's sentence.
[23:30.550 --> 23:48.210]  The other thing, this maybe you can clarify, Alex, the clemency thing from what your definition was, it strikes me that the definition in that the original sentence is reduced, whereas this is commuted, it moves to sort of the end of the sentence without actually having to serve it,
[23:48.930 --> 23:59.790]  barring the probationary period after that, in the case of clemency, had that occurred, there would be a reassessment of the entirety of the sentence.
[23:59.790 --> 24:09.050]  So instead of 35, on paper it would be 10, or whatever, and then that probationary period would exist after that.
[24:09.150 --> 24:16.250]  And with the commutation, it's still 35 years, or whatever the original ruling was, it's just here we are, fast-forwarding to the end of that.
[24:16.250 --> 24:22.070]  And as you pointed out, with no... and then, of course, not fulfilling the immediate release.
[24:22.270 --> 24:33.810]  But one quick comment I wanted to make about that offer that I don't think we touched on or really noticed, why on earth is he immediately... why is the exchange U.S.
[24:33.950 --> 24:34.190]  prison?
[24:34.370 --> 24:35.690]  Why wouldn't it be a U.S.
[24:36.110 --> 24:36.410]  trial?
[24:36.670 --> 24:37.710]  Yeah, that's a good point.
[24:37.830 --> 24:39.590]  Isn't that admitting some kind of guilt?
[24:39.590 --> 24:41.910]  Like, that kind of slips in there...
[24:41.910 --> 24:44.010]  Or just assuming that you're just going to go straight to prison.
[24:44.150 --> 24:45.650]  Yeah, you're not even going to get due process.
[24:45.990 --> 24:52.910]  Well, yeah, this is all operating under the perhaps erroneous assumption that there are pending U.S.
[24:53.010 --> 24:54.470]  charges against Julian Assange.
[24:54.610 --> 24:56.430]  There's most definitely an investigation.
[24:56.750 --> 24:57.390]  There's an investigation.
[24:57.390 --> 25:01.770]  There may be a sealed indictment against him, but we frankly do not know.
[25:01.950 --> 25:04.230]  It's really pessimistic when you read it that way.
[25:04.650 --> 25:08.730]  Yeah, part of the DNC leaks did make reference to that.
[25:08.730 --> 25:15.330]  It didn't officially confirm it, but it seems implied that there was a hidden indictment against him.
[25:15.450 --> 25:23.490]  And the late Michael Ratner, the lawyer who worked on these cases, seems to be under that impression as well.
[25:24.430 --> 25:24.830]  Interesting.
[25:25.310 --> 25:27.570]  Bernie, anything from you?
[25:28.230 --> 25:32.870]  Well, I just think that it's pretty clear that Julian Assange did not want to go to the United States.
[25:33.370 --> 25:37.510]  And regardless of what he said or committed to, I don't think he was going to go there voluntarily.
[25:38.450 --> 25:40.330]  So I think that's what's going to happen.
[25:41.370 --> 25:41.870]  Okay.
[25:42.090 --> 25:49.190]  Well, let me ask you, Alex, concerning some of the specifics of Chelsea Manning's early release.
[25:49.790 --> 25:51.690]  It could have been immediate, right?
[25:51.810 --> 25:56.290]  Is there a reason why it's being held back until May?
[25:57.050 --> 25:58.290]  I frankly don't know.
[25:58.290 --> 25:59.190]  I'm not sure.
[25:59.730 --> 26:06.870]  I think that there is probably a lot of preparation and planning that needs to go into her release from confinement.
[26:07.990 --> 26:18.250]  The other thing to note about these commutations as well is that unlike a pardon, it doesn't necessarily forgive or excuse the act as if it didn't happen in the first place.
[26:18.250 --> 26:34.250]  So the other thing to note is that Chelsea Manning will still very likely, in my understanding of it, and it could be wrong, is that her DD-214, I think it's called, which is her discharge papers, will still reflect that she has been dishonorably discharged from the United States military.
[26:35.130 --> 26:38.550]  And her civil rights will not be restored as well.
[26:38.650 --> 26:53.230]  And because she was convicted of, you know, very high crimes under the Espionage Act, fell short of obviously aiding and abetting the enemy, which was the most serious crime that probably would have made her ineligible for a commutation for political purposes.
[26:53.530 --> 26:57.850]  But she will probably never be able to vote again after this.
[26:57.850 --> 27:00.990]  So to go back to the original question here...
[27:00.990 --> 27:04.830]  Isn't it a state thing, though, a state decision that a felon can't vote?
[27:05.190 --> 27:11.130]  Well, I guess it would depend on where she's living, but in all likelihood, I doubt that she will be able to vote in this country.
[27:11.770 --> 27:17.990]  I think it's highly unlikely because a commutation will not restore any civil rights that are lost as a result of a felony conviction.
[27:18.950 --> 27:26.490]  And so I think that there's a lot of planning, there's a lot of uncertainty that is definitely surrounding what's going to happen next.
[27:26.490 --> 27:29.070]  This is fairly unprecedented.
[27:30.250 --> 27:34.410]  But I don't know why, frankly, it is this many months.
[27:34.570 --> 27:41.270]  It would be great if this happened prior to Trump taking office, but that is not unfortunate.
[27:41.370 --> 27:42.630]  That's unfortunately not going to happen.
[27:42.630 --> 27:43.570]  Hey, Alex.
[27:44.550 --> 27:57.290]  Alex, is there something about the crime Jelsa Manning was convicted of that makes it more severe with regard to voting rights than any other kind of criminal felony?
[27:57.650 --> 28:00.750]  I mean, convicted felons can vote in a lot of states.
[28:01.290 --> 28:08.630]  Is there something unique about her conviction that would make her unable to vote in a state where felons can vote?
[28:09.510 --> 28:11.210]  Not that I know of specifically.
[28:13.010 --> 28:18.910]  This is obviously a crime under the UCMJ, so the interaction with state law is going to be questionable.
[28:19.110 --> 28:28.070]  But most of them, I think, will have the full faith in credit that they would be giving of courts from other states with respect to a criminal conviction as well.
[28:28.070 --> 28:33.430]  So if the law in that state says you're a felon, you can't vote, then she's not going to be able to vote.
[28:33.590 --> 28:45.090]  I don't think that there is necessarily anything that makes this more severe than, let's say, you were caught with cocaine, possession of cocaine with intent to sell or distribute.
[28:46.070 --> 28:49.590]  I don't think there's necessarily a distinction on that basis.
[28:49.770 --> 28:51.450]  But that's really a state law claim.
[28:51.610 --> 28:54.950]  Some states may make that decision, but I can't speak for the law in all 50 states.
[28:55.250 --> 29:02.310]  But I do think, you know, it's going to be difficult depending upon where she determines she's going to take up residence.
[29:04.370 --> 29:12.550]  And we're certainly familiar on this program with cases of people being released from prison, but with all sorts of, frankly, insane limitations on what they can or can't do.
[29:12.550 --> 29:13.630]  Voting is just one example.
[29:13.990 --> 29:21.390]  So we should keep in mind that whatever happens, it will probably be a very long time before Chelsea Manning is a truly free person again.
[29:21.730 --> 29:24.650]  We'll be able to go to 2,600 meetings, hope conferences.
[29:25.630 --> 29:26.350]  Maybe, maybe.
[29:26.450 --> 29:35.950]  But, you know, the interesting thing is, and maybe we shouldn't bring this to the attention of the authorities, but we don't know whether or not any conditions are being placed on her commutation.
[29:36.210 --> 29:39.410]  In all likelihood, there probably will be some, but who knows?
[29:39.550 --> 29:40.350]  Maybe there will be none.
[29:40.490 --> 29:41.310]  And that would be wonderful.
[29:41.310 --> 29:44.730]  But again, is it the Trump administration that will set these conditions?
[29:45.030 --> 29:46.710]  That's not clear to me just yet.
[29:46.710 --> 29:47.850]  We do not know.
[29:48.030 --> 29:54.750]  I don't know the procedural mechanisms whereby those conditions are set, but I would think that they probably would be set pretty soon.
[29:54.750 --> 30:06.930]  So, now, there's also a campaign on the internet and other places to pardon Edward Snowden, and the consensus seems to be that that isn't going to happen.
[30:07.050 --> 30:08.230]  That doesn't seem likely.
[30:08.810 --> 30:09.390]  Why?
[30:09.630 --> 30:13.870]  Why are we so certain that Edward Snowden won't receive a pardon?
[30:13.870 --> 30:29.050]  Well, I think that the Obama administration had given a lot of thought to that particular issue before they made this decision, because this was going to be the chief criticism among many about this decision.
[30:29.050 --> 30:32.050]  So, there are many, many distinctions here.
[30:32.270 --> 30:41.490]  And I think, really, chief among these distinctions is the fact that Chelsea Manning suffered a very, very harsh confinement period.
[30:41.490 --> 30:54.170]  Obama even came out today during his farewell press conference, and he noted, and I think this took a lot of guts and a lot of heart, he noted that her sentence was disproportionate to what she, in fact, did.
[30:54.350 --> 30:55.810]  That took a lot of guts to say.
[30:56.390 --> 31:00.090]  And I very, very much applaud him for doing so.
[31:01.630 --> 31:11.770]  However, if we look at the history of this country, if you think about two days ago was Martin Luther King Day, there is a long history in this country of civil disobedience.
[31:11.910 --> 31:20.610]  But going hand in hand with civil disobedience, if you are somebody who breaks the law to make a point, you also have to suffer the legal consequences of breaking the law.
[31:20.810 --> 31:22.030]  And Chelsea Manning did that.
[31:22.210 --> 31:24.530]  She put herself in front of a military tribunal.
[31:24.530 --> 31:32.910]  She allocuted about what she did, and she suffered the consequences, harsh consequences, in Fort Leavenworth, first in Quantico, then in Fort Leavenworth.
[31:33.070 --> 31:37.230]  These are not places to live, as we've previously noted a couple of minutes ago.
[31:37.690 --> 31:41.550]  Now, Snowden, on the other hand, did not suffer any confinement.
[31:42.630 --> 31:43.870]  Well, that's arguable.
[31:44.010 --> 31:45.070]  He's stuck in Russia.
[31:45.490 --> 31:48.410]  I mean, there's worse things that can happen, certainly, but he can't come home.
[31:48.710 --> 31:51.270]  He can't come home because he would then suffer confinement.
[31:51.430 --> 31:52.650]  His passport's revoked.
[31:52.650 --> 31:55.530]  But I'm saying he's confined outside the country.
[31:55.690 --> 31:56.590]  He can't go anywhere.
[31:56.810 --> 31:58.310]  He's stuck in one place.
[31:58.490 --> 32:00.630]  I know that's not the way he wants to live.
[32:00.750 --> 32:01.070]  Of course.
[32:01.270 --> 32:02.070]  It's certainly preferable to prison.
[32:03.450 --> 32:05.470]  But I think...
[32:05.470 --> 32:12.630]  And also, the important thing to realize here, too, is that Edward Snowden, from the beginning, came forward and said, I did this.
[32:13.310 --> 32:14.690]  Chelsea Manning was turned in.
[32:15.450 --> 32:16.670]  That's absolutely true.
[32:16.710 --> 32:19.490]  And that's, I think, a very, very important distinction as well.
[32:19.750 --> 32:26.090]  But I think the real kicker here for the Obama administration is that she was on U.S.
[32:26.150 --> 32:26.410]  soil.
[32:26.530 --> 32:27.590]  She suffered the consequences.
[32:27.750 --> 32:38.610]  She was criminally convicted while she was here, whereas Edward Snowden fled to a foreign jurisdiction, even though he claimed responsibility for this and has gained international notoriety for it and fame.
[32:40.050 --> 32:44.270]  He never faced a tribunal here in the United States.
[32:44.530 --> 32:55.850]  Now, in terms of civil disobedience, a lot of people would also claim that a civilly disobedient act, especially one that is so public like this, has to be prosecuted in order for it to actually be complete.
[32:55.850 --> 33:02.170]  Because without that prosecution, it doesn't necessarily serve the public purpose.
[33:02.530 --> 33:14.730]  But this, however, presupposes and putting in a condition of prosecution or suffering punishment for an act of civil disobedience presupposes that we live in a civil and just society.
[33:14.730 --> 33:18.730]  So this then reframes the entire debate if we look at it in that context.
[33:18.970 --> 33:29.950]  So, you know, I ask you guys the question, do you think we live in a society that is civil enough to deal with the consequences of an act like Snowden had performed?
[33:30.390 --> 33:37.570]  Well, again, you know, if you believe that it was a public service that he performed, he should be thanked in the eyes of many people.
[33:37.690 --> 33:43.810]  But if you look at the strict legal interpretation, yeah, he has to serve some kind of a penalty.
[33:43.810 --> 33:46.250]  But I still argue that he has been serving that penalty.
[33:46.250 --> 33:48.890]  He has not been able to live his life the way he should be living his life.
[33:49.330 --> 33:51.810]  He has so much to contribute, so much to share.
[33:52.130 --> 33:55.270]  We've gained so much from him, the people, I mean.
[33:55.630 --> 33:58.330]  Sure, governments, it's a pain in the ass to them, but it should be.
[33:58.450 --> 34:00.650]  We need a hundred more people like him.
[34:01.370 --> 34:03.470]  So, you know, Obama still has 24 hours.
[34:04.110 --> 34:05.830]  Well, I hold out hope.
[34:05.950 --> 34:07.050]  I know it's unlikely.
[34:07.290 --> 34:11.710]  I think there's also, this is like the night of distinctions, but I think there's a distinction here, too.
[34:12.250 --> 34:18.590]  And I know it's unpopular to come out and say this, especially on this program, but I think what Snowden did was really a mixed bag, in my opinion.
[34:19.150 --> 34:30.750]  I think the initial disclosures that he made about the unconstitutional blanket surveillance of Verizon Business Network subscribers was, on its face, unconstitutional and deserved to be brought to the public's attention.
[34:31.190 --> 34:34.990]  Now, what he did was essentially like a smash-and-grab job.
[34:35.170 --> 34:45.410]  You know, if you think about this in the context of, let's say, you know, a bunch of robbers going into a jewelry store and, you know, smashing their windows and grabbing it, that's essentially what he did with respect to data.
[34:45.410 --> 34:46.870]  He grabbed a whole bunch of data.
[34:47.010 --> 34:52.550]  He knew some of it had to deal with, arguably, unconstitutional programs that were, in fact, unconstitutional.
[34:53.630 --> 34:57.750]  But what he did with that data afterwards was he put it into the hands of journalists.
[34:57.950 --> 34:58.250]  Exactly.
[34:58.630 --> 34:58.870]  Yes.
[34:58.990 --> 35:00.110]  They're the ones who released it.
[35:00.250 --> 35:08.270]  He put it into the hands of people that could judge whether or not this would be some kind of a security issue, national security issue.
[35:10.130 --> 35:11.630]  Arbiters of the public interest.
[35:11.870 --> 35:12.110]  Yeah.
[35:12.250 --> 35:14.750]  I mean, I think he followed exactly the right procedure.
[35:15.010 --> 35:21.550]  Well, and don't forget, I believe that Chelsea Manning tried to go to journalists first and was, in fact, turned down and then went to WikiLeaks.
[35:21.550 --> 35:23.310]  So there's an issue there, too.
[35:23.470 --> 35:35.670]  But what happened and what Snowden grabbed was different from what Manning grabbed in the sense that what Manning had taken related a lot to diplomatic cables and DOD operations, but these were completed operations.
[35:35.670 --> 35:39.930]  Well, with respect to Snowden, these are ongoing operations of an intelligence nature.
[35:40.370 --> 35:48.490]  And a lot of what came out of that bag that he grabbed, the reporting that came out of it, was, in my opinion, not necessarily newsworthy.
[35:48.630 --> 35:57.250]  A lot of what came out in terms of whom we were targeting for foreign intelligence collection was, in fact, entirely legal, what we were doing under U.S.
[35:57.250 --> 35:57.250]  law.
[35:57.250 --> 35:58.130]  How about domestically?
[35:58.470 --> 36:02.830]  How about all of us being surveyed and spied on?
[36:02.830 --> 36:03.970]  Well, that's what I said.
[36:04.090 --> 36:11.850]  I think the initial disclosures, especially the blanket surveillance about the Verizon Business Network subscribers, that was absolutely something that should have been above the contention.
[36:11.850 --> 36:12.930]  But it went beyond Verizon.
[36:13.170 --> 36:13.250]  It did.
[36:13.250 --> 36:13.950]  It was the U.S.
[36:14.010 --> 36:14.690]  government, the NSA.
[36:15.090 --> 36:19.170]  It was all that spine that we did not really know was happening.
[36:19.210 --> 36:20.230]  We didn't know it was happening.
[36:20.410 --> 36:24.690]  A lot of efforts to crack encryption, degrading the NIST standards.
[36:25.070 --> 36:30.970]  The stuff Alex was talking about with regard to Verizon Business, I believe people might know as the metadata.
[36:30.970 --> 36:31.750]  That's right.
[36:31.750 --> 36:34.970]  So-called metadata collection system.
[36:35.850 --> 36:36.270]  Section 215.
[36:36.570 --> 36:37.090]  Yes.
[36:37.410 --> 36:38.010]  Thank you, Bernie.
[36:38.230 --> 36:50.750]  That is quite different from the PRISM program and, well, a lot of the hardware and other things that were found in slides and other of those releases.
[36:51.590 --> 36:53.050]  We've learned so much.
[36:53.210 --> 36:57.670]  We've had conversations we never would have had without these revelations.
[36:57.930 --> 37:08.550]  And I think, you know, even the government is richer for this because at least there's a dialogue going on now where they can step forward and fix these trust issues.
[37:08.790 --> 37:10.750]  Unfortunately, they're going about it completely the wrong way.
[37:10.830 --> 37:11.010]  Walter?
[37:11.010 --> 37:11.690]  Emanuel?
[37:11.970 --> 37:22.850]  I think also to people that say Snowden has to come home and face the music, he said that he would, but the laws he'd be prosecuted under don't allow a public interest offense.
[37:23.010 --> 37:25.390]  So he'd not be able to get a just trial.
[37:26.010 --> 37:26.750]  They thought of everything.
[37:26.870 --> 37:27.330]  Bernie, go ahead.
[37:28.710 --> 37:32.870]  Reportedly, Edward Snowden has not requested clemency or a pardon.
[37:33.290 --> 37:39.090]  And Alex, wouldn't that necessarily be a prerequisite in order to receive either?
[37:39.790 --> 37:41.170]  Well, I don't actually know.
[37:41.270 --> 37:45.550]  I would presume that a president can probably pardon whomever he likes.
[37:45.690 --> 37:48.510]  I think a petition probably helps to bring it.
[37:48.570 --> 37:49.970]  Did Richard Nixon ask for a pardon?
[37:50.270 --> 37:51.290]  That I don't know.
[37:51.390 --> 37:52.170]  I'm not sure.
[37:52.410 --> 37:54.930]  I think he was just given one, whether he liked it or not.
[37:55.350 --> 37:56.430]  Probably, probably.
[37:56.430 --> 37:58.130]  He couldn't get a clemency, I guess.
[37:58.910 --> 38:04.250]  I mean, Snowden obviously couldn't get a clemency because he hadn't been sentenced or even convicted of anything.
[38:04.450 --> 38:05.750]  So it would have to be a pardon.
[38:06.170 --> 38:06.930]  But you're right.
[38:07.110 --> 38:10.490]  I doubt Richard Nixon, well, it was probably an informal request.
[38:11.510 --> 38:12.230]  Yes, yeah.
[38:12.570 --> 38:14.930]  But I don't want to compare Snowden to Nixon ever again.
[38:15.010 --> 38:15.330]  No, no.
[38:15.950 --> 38:17.030]  No, probably not.
[38:17.370 --> 38:23.210]  But look, I think to be very clear about it, I think what Snowden did, in my opinion, was very much a mixed bag.
[38:23.210 --> 38:31.610]  As somebody who's been on both sides of government, from within and without, I can say, you know, it's definitely a gray issue in my mind.
[38:32.350 --> 38:35.850]  I don't canonize him like a lot of other people do.
[38:35.850 --> 38:42.130]  I think what Manning did was, frankly, a lot more laudable and required a lot more courage.
[38:42.130 --> 38:44.570]  Now, I ask you guys this question.
[38:45.110 --> 38:57.790]  Had Snowden not fled, had he not gone to Hong Kong and then to Moscow and then continued to receive, let's say, safe harbor, I know you wouldn't characterize it like that, but for the sake of argument, let's characterize it as safe harbor from a foreign adversary.
[38:57.790 --> 39:15.550]  If he came back to the United States and was put to trial and convicted and suffered confinement for the last three and a half years, I think there would be a good chance that right now, at the end of the Obama administration, he might be up for a pardon or clemency.
[39:15.550 --> 39:20.250]  I will, like, more or less agree with you in that they don't really compare.
[39:20.530 --> 39:36.050]  Like, as they stand now, the two cases don't really compare insofar as having Chelsea Manning having actually suffered consequences and more or less served time, whereas Snowden hasn't.
[39:36.110 --> 39:39.990]  But I do think that the work he did was important.
[39:41.010 --> 39:51.730]  Another thing to keep in mind if we're going to be comparing this hypothetical punishment Snowden would get versus what Chelsea has suffered is the fact of Chelsea's transgender status.
[39:52.270 --> 39:58.330]  Chelsea is trans female, and that's something that the military was not at all wired to provide for.
[39:58.930 --> 40:06.610]  Generally, the military doesn't employ transgendered people, or at least they didn't at the time of Chelsea's conviction.
[40:07.190 --> 40:12.910]  If you were transgender, if that was found to be the case, it's a recognized medical condition, but you would just get a discharge.
[40:13.470 --> 40:14.670]  You know, get out of here.
[40:14.790 --> 40:15.410]  We're done with you.
[40:15.550 --> 40:22.470]  But because Chelsea was first on trial and then convicted, there's no provision there for a discharge.
[40:22.970 --> 40:28.710]  But there was also no provision for the prison to provide for her recognized medical condition.
[40:29.110 --> 40:32.010]  That means that she hasn't been suffering a normal prison sentence.
[40:32.010 --> 40:38.650]  She's been suffering a prison sentence, which has been suppressing a very meaningful and important fact of her nature.
[40:38.870 --> 40:43.130]  And that's something that I think is itself its own form of torture.
[40:43.350 --> 40:43.750]  Good point.
[40:43.850 --> 40:44.310]  Very good point.
[40:44.570 --> 41:05.990]  To answer your question, though, Alex, the hypothetical, if Snowden had never left the country, I believe you said initially, and had released this information at a press conference or whatever here, I think Laura Poitras, I think Glenn Greenwald probably would have been brought up on charges,
[41:05.990 --> 41:06.230]  too.
[41:06.610 --> 41:09.250]  I think that would have been a very dangerous situation for all of them.
[41:09.310 --> 41:16.490]  I think he went to Hong Kong in order to do this safely, both for himself and for the journalists he chose to include.
[41:18.690 --> 41:30.670]  And, you know, I can't think of a better way to release such sensitive information, because you know that powerful entities will do whatever it takes to suppress this kind of a thing.
[41:31.150 --> 41:32.630]  And he had to.
[41:32.890 --> 41:37.950]  It was the only possible way to responsibly get the news out to the people.
[41:38.070 --> 41:39.070]  And live through it.
[41:39.250 --> 41:42.890]  Yeah, and to have the people that he gave it to live through it as well.
[41:42.890 --> 41:46.970]  So, yeah, I don't really think it was much of a decision.
[41:47.210 --> 41:51.470]  And I think that Edward Snowden would have come back to face trial.
[41:51.790 --> 42:09.430]  But, you know, when you have elected officials talking about not whether or not he should face a death penalty, but specifically how he should be killed, those kinds of things tend to put you off on facing your accusers because you believe they're barbarians.
[42:09.430 --> 42:20.370]  So, this goes back to the question that I posed earlier then, which is, if we are going to consider a civil disobedient act to require punishment, we have to be living in a civil and just society.
[42:20.370 --> 42:22.410]  So, you basically answered that question as no.
[42:22.530 --> 42:30.630]  You don't think that our judicial system, as it stands right now, is equipped to deal with a whistleblower of the magnitude of Edward Snowden.
[42:30.630 --> 42:37.190]  And I think what you said actually dovetails a lot with what Obama said today, believe it or not.
[42:37.390 --> 42:44.870]  Obama came out during his press conference and he said that it's the clemency for Chelsea Manning is important.
[42:45.150 --> 42:46.430]  I'm paraphrasing, obviously.
[42:46.650 --> 42:53.190]  But the clemency for Chelsea Manning was important because it will encourage people to use the normal channels.
[42:53.350 --> 42:56.770]  We need to encourage the normal whistleblowing channels to be used.
[42:56.770 --> 42:59.850]  Now, when you look at what Edward Snowden did, I totally agree.
[43:00.150 --> 43:03.390]  He probably had to make a decision to release this outside of the United States.
[43:03.530 --> 43:07.470]  The whistleblowing channels, as they existed at the time, were horrendous at the NSA.
[43:07.850 --> 43:09.370]  They need to be revised.
[43:09.590 --> 43:10.990]  They need to be revamped.
[43:11.170 --> 43:12.550]  But it was more than just whistleblowing.
[43:12.730 --> 43:15.130]  It was systemic policy that he was revealing.
[43:15.410 --> 43:22.350]  You can't whistleblow an entire agency that's basically lying and living by different rules.
[43:22.490 --> 43:23.470]  That's what he exposed.
[43:23.470 --> 43:26.690]  Well, people tried in the past, right, at the NSA.
[43:26.810 --> 43:27.530]  How did that work out?
[43:27.710 --> 43:27.930]  Hello.
[43:28.250 --> 43:28.850]  Yeah, exactly.
[43:29.110 --> 43:31.730]  And it did not work out very, very well for them at all.
[43:31.890 --> 43:33.670]  I mean, it destroyed entire lives.
[43:33.850 --> 43:36.890]  So I think he was right to do what he did initially.
[43:37.730 --> 43:47.310]  But I think we would be in an entirely different situation if, say, let's say six months after the release of the information to journalists, he came back to the United States and was sentenced.
[43:48.110 --> 43:51.050]  I'd like to open it up to some phone calls in the time we have left.
[43:52.830 --> 43:55.910]  347-335-0818 is our phone number.
[43:56.030 --> 43:57.090]  Again, we only have one line.
[43:57.230 --> 43:58.690]  So if you get through, you get through.
[43:58.750 --> 44:01.670]  If you don't get through, you'll get one of those old-fashioned busy signals, I believe.
[44:01.830 --> 44:04.250]  And it's almost worth it just to call to hear that.
[44:04.750 --> 44:14.290]  One other thing I'd just like to touch upon quickly, because we have so many crazy, ridiculous things happening in the prelude to the Trump inauguration.
[44:14.290 --> 44:15.190]  I can't believe I'm saying it.
[44:16.410 --> 44:23.890]  Rudolph Giuliani is the guy that Trump is selecting to be a cybersecurity advisor.
[44:24.210 --> 44:25.410]  He's got to be trolling.
[44:25.650 --> 44:26.930]  This has to be a joke.
[44:27.210 --> 44:28.590]  This has to be a joke.
[44:29.770 --> 44:31.830]  Bernie, I know you've been following this story.
[44:32.070 --> 44:33.310]  Any thoughts on how...
[44:34.510 --> 44:34.990]  It's...
[44:34.990 --> 44:37.590]  You know, you might as well have brought Bernie Kerik along with him.
[44:37.590 --> 44:39.170]  You know, it's just...
[44:41.790 --> 44:47.450]  Clearly, Giuliani is not qualified to be the cybersecurity advisor to Trump.
[44:48.210 --> 44:54.750]  His own website was full of security vulnerabilities, and it's been already demonstrated.
[44:54.950 --> 44:59.630]  I mean, we're talking like tens of vulnerabilities, lots of them.
[45:00.410 --> 45:04.310]  The guy is just full hot air, Giuliani.
[45:04.310 --> 45:20.610]  And we knew that back in, I don't know, was it 2007 that Giuliani recommended Bernie Kerik, who had all these organized crime connections when he was vetted for head of National Department of Homeland Security?
[45:21.590 --> 45:30.130]  To be fair, just because the guy's website is less secure than my old high school's website...
[45:30.130 --> 45:33.570]  You know, actually, that's not really a fair comparison, because some smart people go there.
[45:34.950 --> 45:35.430]  Kindergarten...
[45:35.430 --> 45:35.930]  I don't know.
[45:36.130 --> 45:39.890]  Something you would expect to be completely open to vulnerabilities.
[45:40.530 --> 45:43.010]  And the Giuliani website is, wow.
[45:44.110 --> 45:46.750]  Flaws that have doomed other businesses, it's described as.
[45:46.830 --> 45:48.330]  That use outdated security software.
[45:48.890 --> 45:51.430]  But he's not the guy running that particular site.
[45:51.530 --> 45:58.190]  However, he is the guy running the company that supposedly hires people to keep that site secure.
[45:58.190 --> 46:00.050]  And he's obviously not doing that job.
[46:00.190 --> 46:08.030]  So what makes Trump think that he can possibly do anything of worth involving cyber security on a nationwide scale?
[46:09.910 --> 46:13.470]  I think we should think about this from a different perspective as well.
[46:13.730 --> 46:14.190]  And I think...
[46:16.230 --> 46:22.030]  Let's presuppose that there is a method to the madness of Trump, which is really presupposing a hell of a lot.
[46:22.110 --> 46:22.730]  I think it's madness.
[46:22.850 --> 46:24.550]  I think madness is the method behind this madness.
[46:24.550 --> 46:25.670]  Yeah, maybe that's true.
[46:25.930 --> 46:28.190]  But let's say that there is a method to the madness here.
[46:28.370 --> 46:33.010]  What does this necessarily signal to our community, to the hacker community?
[46:33.270 --> 46:36.370]  And if we read this as a signal, it's not a good signal.
[46:36.490 --> 46:39.270]  Not necessarily because the guy is not a subject matter expert.
[46:39.530 --> 46:42.050]  But think about Giuliani's past before he was mayor.
[46:42.230 --> 46:44.570]  He was involved in prosecution.
[46:44.970 --> 46:46.070]  He was a U.S.
[46:46.150 --> 46:46.410]  attorney.
[46:46.590 --> 46:48.050]  He went after rackets.
[46:48.130 --> 46:49.070]  He went after mafia.
[46:49.190 --> 46:50.350]  He went after organized crime.
[46:51.670 --> 46:55.810]  He used the RICO Act many, many times as a U.S.
[46:56.070 --> 46:56.070]  attorney.
[46:56.210 --> 46:57.070]  And then he was the U.S.
[46:57.130 --> 46:57.390]  attorney.
[46:57.530 --> 46:58.650]  And then he was the mayor.
[46:58.810 --> 47:02.090]  So we're looking at somebody who has a law enforcement expertise.
[47:02.090 --> 47:12.750]  If this is signaling anything with respect to cybersecurity, he's signaling that the Trump administration is going to be very interested, from a policy perspective, in enforcement of the law.
[47:12.930 --> 47:18.770]  Maybe even the extraterritorial enforcement of the law, if Giuliani is going to become a trusted advisor.
[47:18.770 --> 47:23.590]  So, I think if we are to read a method into the madness, it's not a good method that we're seeing here.
[47:24.110 --> 47:26.810]  Didn't seem to care as much, though, when it benefited him.
[47:28.670 --> 47:29.190]  That's right.
[47:29.350 --> 47:30.830]  In the run-up to the election.
[47:31.050 --> 47:35.030]  But I guess they'll just start fresh with the Trump administration.
[47:35.290 --> 47:36.110]  Hey, let's take a phone call.
[47:36.190 --> 47:39.010]  Again, our phone number, 347-335-0818.
[47:39.210 --> 47:39.570]  Good evening.
[47:39.690 --> 47:40.290]  You're on off the hook.
[47:40.390 --> 47:40.570]  Go ahead.
[47:41.310 --> 47:42.410]  Oh, boy, I'm sorry.
[47:43.190 --> 47:44.330]  A dial tone called us.
[47:44.850 --> 47:45.650]  Phone line is open.
[47:45.930 --> 47:47.550]  347-335-0818.
[47:47.550 --> 47:51.970]  Again, we only have one line, so we have to be very careful here.
[47:52.170 --> 47:52.830]  Let's try this one.
[47:52.970 --> 47:53.330]  Good evening.
[47:53.530 --> 47:54.470]  You're on off the hook.
[47:54.570 --> 47:54.810]  Go ahead.
[47:56.690 --> 47:57.450]  Speak up, please.
[47:57.750 --> 47:58.430]  Yes, go ahead.
[47:58.510 --> 47:58.850]  You're on the air.
[48:00.430 --> 48:00.790]  Hi.
[48:00.890 --> 48:01.850]  Am I on the air?
[48:01.970 --> 48:02.850]  You're on the air right now.
[48:03.770 --> 48:04.490]  Okay, great.
[48:04.490 --> 48:22.550]  So, I love this conversation about Chelsea Manning getting her sentence commutated, but I want us to forget about all the people who still need their sentence commutated and need pardons, like Leonard Peltier.
[48:22.850 --> 48:32.750]  And I think it's a travesty that no one has picked up his story in a big way and has run with it, even though the prosecutor has written the president several months ago.
[48:33.170 --> 48:44.150]  The prosecutor, in his case, written the president several months ago and asked for him to be released from jail and, you know, for the betterment of justice for...
[48:46.150 --> 48:48.110]  And I just want that to be a conversation.
[48:48.110 --> 48:53.510]  Well, I remember this being brought up by Amy Goodman when President Clinton called our studios back in 2000.
[48:54.090 --> 48:54.570]  Right.
[48:54.570 --> 48:57.770]  And it got the same cricket response that we're hearing now.
[48:59.110 --> 49:03.350]  Is there a website you know of that people can go to, add their voices?
[49:05.010 --> 49:22.870]  Well, so the White House petition, you can Google White House petition, and if there's a hundred thousand petitioners, the president has to respond, and time is of essence.
[49:23.250 --> 49:26.030]  So, you know, there's only...there's less than two days left.
[49:28.050 --> 49:34.010]  So that's one place you can go and...one place you can go and ask for something.
[49:34.350 --> 49:39.670]  And at tweeting, I really...I really don't know Amnesty International.
[49:40.270 --> 49:56.750]  I've been doing all of these things, and I know Leonard is in a lot of people's hearts, and I just wish that everybody else was, you know, not allowing the crickets that they hear from the mainstream be the end of the situation, and running with that mantle.
[49:57.030 --> 49:59.530]  And, you know, he's 71 years old.
[49:59.570 --> 50:09.690]  He's been in jail for 40...almost 42 years on a case in which he is, you know, he was dubiously prosecuted, dubiously found guilty.
[50:10.990 --> 50:12.110]  It's enough already.
[50:13.310 --> 50:14.210]  Yeah, I agree.
[50:14.410 --> 50:15.070]  I totally agree.
[50:15.690 --> 50:19.030]  Thanks for bringing that to the attention, hopefully, of more people.
[50:19.590 --> 50:22.330]  Leonard Peltier, that's spelled P-E-L-T-I-E.
[50:22.350 --> 50:27.410]  D-E-R, look it up, and add your voice, and maybe something will happen.
[50:27.770 --> 50:36.630]  As far as this whole thing with White House petitions, 100,000 names, the president has to respond, that all goes out the window with Trump, doesn't it?
[50:36.930 --> 50:37.650]  Yeah, I believe so.
[50:37.850 --> 50:44.050]  That was a very big project of the Obama administration, and I would not bet the farm on the president-elect keeping hold of it.
[50:44.750 --> 50:45.190]  Wow.
[50:45.590 --> 50:47.570]  That's sobering alone.
[50:48.090 --> 50:50.850]  Let's take another phone call, 347-335-0818.
[50:50.850 --> 50:52.930]  And good evening, you're on Off the Hook.
[50:54.030 --> 50:55.990]  Hey, it's me, Tommy, from Long Beach.
[50:56.730 --> 50:57.290]  How you doing?
[50:57.970 --> 50:58.910]  I'm doing great.
[50:59.170 --> 51:09.210]  You know, I just wanted to add that, you know, since Martin Luther King Day, I'm glad WBAI and everybody was playing in, because we need a guy like that more than ever now, I think.
[51:09.890 --> 51:10.330]  Yeah.
[51:10.490 --> 51:12.290]  You know, with everything that's going on and stuff.
[51:12.430 --> 51:14.730]  We need a lot of guys like that, and a lot of women like that.
[51:15.270 --> 51:15.630]  Yeah, exactly.
[51:15.750 --> 51:16.990]  And, you know, I wanted to mention something.
[51:17.190 --> 51:31.570]  I have a friend from Russia, and he moved here about five years ago, and it's always very interesting talking to him, because, you know, he always thought that his picture of America was always much different.
[51:31.570 --> 51:44.910]  But when he came here, you know, he's telling his friends, you know, it's really, I mean, with the exception of, like, violence and, like, alcohol rates and stuff, he's like, it's generally the same thing when it comes to politicians.
[51:45.430 --> 51:49.150]  And it's funny, because his grandfather's always joking with me.
[51:49.250 --> 51:50.610]  He's always like, hello, Tommy.
[51:50.850 --> 51:54.630]  He's like, you will be very used to dictatorship very soon, my friend.
[51:54.910 --> 52:00.930]  He's like, very soon you will be used to it, and there will be no difference between the United States and Russia.
[52:01.610 --> 52:05.090]  I'm always laughing, because I'm like, yeah, probably.
[52:05.510 --> 52:09.370]  Well, you know, that's interesting, because, well, you know, I love Russia.
[52:09.490 --> 52:10.810]  I love the history.
[52:11.170 --> 52:14.790]  But the sad part is that people in Russia are used to this.
[52:15.070 --> 52:16.290]  They're literature.
[52:16.790 --> 52:19.530]  They're politicians going way back centuries.
[52:20.030 --> 52:22.890]  And in the United States, it's more subtle.
[52:23.030 --> 52:26.730]  We're not aware we're being oppressed as much as people are over there.
[52:27.370 --> 52:28.650]  So we don't know how to handle it.
[52:29.110 --> 52:29.930]  But we're going to learn.
[52:30.030 --> 52:30.550]  We're going to learn.
[52:30.650 --> 52:31.410]  We're going to get a good lesson.
[52:31.990 --> 52:33.050]  Thanks so much for your call.
[52:33.730 --> 52:34.230]  No problem.
[52:34.330 --> 52:35.490]  Hopefully you enjoyed the accent.
[52:35.930 --> 52:36.350]  I did.
[52:36.410 --> 52:36.610]  I did.
[52:36.670 --> 52:37.190]  It was perfect.
[52:37.430 --> 52:37.650]  It was good.
[52:37.930 --> 52:38.110]  Yeah.
[52:38.310 --> 52:45.090]  By the way, this reminds me of the Women's March on Washington, which I want to make sure everybody knows about and participates in.
[52:45.310 --> 52:46.410]  Follow them on Twitter.
[52:46.790 --> 52:49.350]  Women's March is a Twitter handle.
[52:49.630 --> 52:50.650]  And that's going to be huge.
[52:50.650 --> 52:52.290]  That's going to be really amazing.
[52:52.390 --> 52:58.710]  January 21st, the day after, Saturday, the day after the inauguration, all are welcome at this particular march.
[52:59.030 --> 53:00.070]  So don't be fooled by the name.
[53:00.450 --> 53:00.770]  That's true.
[53:00.890 --> 53:03.450]  And if you can't make it yourself, it will be covered in depth on this station.
[53:03.710 --> 53:06.230]  And C-SPAN, I'm sure they'll be covering it.
[53:06.490 --> 53:07.510]  Awesome watching C-SPAN.
[53:07.510 --> 53:10.110]  We need like five C-SPANs now because of all the things that are going on at once.
[53:10.510 --> 53:12.330]  I thought C-SPAN was playing Russia today.
[53:13.130 --> 53:14.310]  I don't know about that.
[53:14.530 --> 53:16.470]  They were playing a bunch of conservative radio.
[53:16.470 --> 53:18.490]  They're actually doing filming on location.
[53:18.850 --> 53:19.950]  Let's take one more call.
[53:26.330 --> 53:33.450]  The gentleman who mentioned that if Snowden had decided to face up to it and been in jail, he might have had his sentence commuted.
[53:34.510 --> 53:39.890]  You know, you had Drake and Benny basically try to do the right things, and they weren't able to.
[53:40.050 --> 53:41.650]  They were prosecuted under the whistleblowers.
[53:41.750 --> 53:43.210]  You don't see any commuting for them.
[53:43.430 --> 53:52.090]  You had Jeffrey Sterling, who was basically put in jail as one person who had, out of 82, who had information on this.
[53:52.510 --> 53:58.310]  But because he had brought a racial discrimination case against the CIA, they kind of had it out for him.
[53:58.390 --> 53:59.590]  He was the only guy investigated.
[53:59.950 --> 54:07.350]  They have just spurious incidental information, which is not, you know, empirical.
[54:07.670 --> 54:09.110]  And they convicted him on that.
[54:09.210 --> 54:12.470]  And they're not, you know, they're not allowing him any commutation.
[54:12.990 --> 54:25.770]  And meanwhile, you have Cartwright, the second highest commander, you know, underneath the commanders-in-chief, not commanders-in-chief, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs.
[54:25.870 --> 54:26.990]  He was second in charge.
[54:26.990 --> 54:28.890]  He released the information on Stuxnecks.
[54:29.110 --> 54:30.010]  He gets supported.
[54:30.310 --> 54:32.690]  So you have this kind of thing, you know, in Panetta.
[54:32.830 --> 54:34.370]  Panetta wasn't even really charged.
[54:34.370 --> 54:42.910]  You have basically select people that are being actually allowed this commutation and other people that aren't.
[54:43.430 --> 54:44.970]  And Snowden had it exactly right.
[54:45.070 --> 54:47.850]  He saw what happened to guys who actually tried to do the right thing.
[54:48.830 --> 54:51.910]  You know, there was like seven of them, Benny, Drake, a whole bunch of them.
[54:52.230 --> 54:59.350]  The gentleman who accidentally released the information on a CIA guy, a fellow CIA guy, which he thought had been retired.
[54:59.730 --> 55:00.910]  He just got out of jail.
[55:01.050 --> 55:02.450]  His commutation is not there.
[55:02.450 --> 55:05.130]  He's going to have this felony thing on his record.
[55:05.350 --> 55:07.450]  So it's kind of selective there.
[55:07.490 --> 55:11.770]  And it's according to who you are, who you know, and what political power you have.
[55:12.170 --> 55:16.070]  So Snowden wouldn't be allowed to come in and actually have a trial in public.
[55:16.450 --> 55:18.130]  I don't know whether you guys know that or not.
[55:18.450 --> 55:21.050]  He wouldn't even actually be allowed to have a trial in public.
[55:21.210 --> 55:22.450]  Because of the nature of the charges.
[55:22.990 --> 55:23.430]  Exactly.
[55:23.650 --> 55:28.890]  And he wouldn't even be allowed to present, as you mentioned before, his position that was in the public interest.
[55:28.890 --> 55:45.330]  And, you know, you see all these newspapers, the Post, and, you know, and the great lady, the scion of freedom, the scion of liberty, you know, who on page A18 said, whoops, are bad about the Iraq war after Judas Miller, Mike Gordon, all those news articles from Scooter Libby.
[55:45.330 --> 55:53.190]  You know, they have the nerve to come out and collect Pulitzer prizes for the information which Snowden provided through alternate sources.
[55:53.730 --> 55:56.170]  David said, listen, do whatever you need to do.
[55:56.290 --> 56:00.290]  You contact the agencies, find out which things are important to national security.
[56:00.550 --> 56:02.950]  Don't release them if you think they have a good case.
[56:03.010 --> 56:04.510]  I'll leave it completely up to you.
[56:04.790 --> 56:14.150]  And they get on his case, and you have all these Main Street media newspapers that are climbing on his back and telling him, you know, telling us all what a traitor he is.
[56:14.650 --> 56:16.850]  It's so depleted, it almost makes me nauseous.
[56:17.010 --> 56:20.330]  Yeah, well, hopefully he can hold it in and deal with the next four years.
[56:20.350 --> 56:21.690]  But thanks for that information.
[56:21.890 --> 56:22.490]  We're out of time.
[56:22.750 --> 56:27.670]  And please, those of you who could not reach us, write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[56:27.790 --> 56:28.570]  We'd love to hear from you.
[56:28.830 --> 56:31.230]  Two days away from something we've never been through before.
[56:31.410 --> 56:32.210]  We'll get through it together.
[56:32.370 --> 56:32.910]  Stay strong.
[56:33.130 --> 56:33.870]  Stay alert.
[56:34.630 --> 56:35.590]  Remember, you're not alone.
[56:35.910 --> 56:38.270]  And we have a lot of work ahead of us.
[56:38.270 --> 56:40.150]  I want to thank everybody who participated tonight.
[56:40.510 --> 56:43.710]  And we will see you again next week, hopefully.
[56:44.550 --> 56:45.530]  It's Emmanuel for Off the Hook.
[56:45.630 --> 56:45.830]  Good night.