[00:00.000 --> 00:01.660]  ...heard on mainstream media.
[00:01.880 --> 00:08.180]  Voices of workers, immigrant voices, voices of students, voices organizing, local voices.
[00:08.500 --> 00:10.820]  That's why WBAI is needed.
[00:11.120 --> 00:20.660]  Call us, 516-620-3602, and make a pledge to support listener-sponsored, non-commercial WBAI.
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[00:26.580 --> 00:29.300]  Make the station strong with your support.
[00:30.000 --> 00:30.760]  And thank you.
[00:33.240 --> 00:33.840]  No.
[00:34.740 --> 00:35.580]  Thank you.
[00:36.000 --> 00:37.060]  It's 8 o'clock.
[00:37.220 --> 00:38.860]  You're listening to WBAI New York.
[00:39.060 --> 00:40.880]  It's time once again for Off the Hook.
[00:46.210 --> 00:48.110]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[00:48.590 --> 00:50.630]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[00:51.650 --> 00:53.630]  I cut myself while shaving.
[00:54.210 --> 00:56.110]  Now I can't make a call.
[00:56.810 --> 00:58.970]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:01.610 --> 01:04.410]  A billy bump for the best, expect the worst.
[01:04.410 --> 01:07.990]  I hope that's understood, but make me move!
[02:07.540 --> 02:08.100]  Nobody came to town.
[02:08.580 --> 02:10.040]  Yes, President Trump.
[02:10.260 --> 02:12.360]  I still can't get used to that phrase, President Trump.
[02:12.680 --> 02:13.020]  Nobody came to town.
[02:14.000 --> 02:24.920]  He came to Philadelphia Thursday around noon to meet with a bunch of Republican leaders to plot how are they going to do things.
[02:24.920 --> 02:35.580]  And so, Wednesday, I went to check out the security perimeter that the Secret Service and a whole lot of other law enforcement agencies were setting up.
[02:35.580 --> 02:36.860]  And it was fascinating.
[02:37.120 --> 02:49.960]  You know, I got to see some really interesting military vehicles and vans and communications trucks.
[02:49.960 --> 02:55.260]  And, I mean, the trappings of the president were coming to town.
[02:55.320 --> 02:57.940]  And it was pretty interesting watching all that.
[02:58.080 --> 03:03.260]  Of course, I got some very focused looks because I had dark sunglasses.
[03:03.260 --> 03:07.860]  And I had a bad cough, so I had a mask over my mouth, so I wanted to be evil.
[03:09.200 --> 03:09.880]  Excuse me.
[03:10.580 --> 03:16.500]  You don't have to demonstrate it for us, but you're saying you walked around there with a mask and sunglasses on, and you live to tell about it.
[03:17.700 --> 03:18.940]  Well, I mean...
[03:18.940 --> 03:19.620]  Or maybe not.
[03:19.780 --> 03:20.260]  I wasn't wearing a mask.
[03:20.380 --> 03:21.580]  I wasn't wearing it for show.
[03:21.780 --> 03:22.580]  I was just...
[03:22.580 --> 03:24.360]  Anyway, I got some strange looks.
[03:24.820 --> 03:25.180]  Uh-huh.
[03:25.800 --> 03:26.140]  Wow.
[03:26.960 --> 03:34.160]  I like watching the watchers and watching the security perimeters being set up.
[03:34.240 --> 03:35.400]  Yeah, we've noticed that about you.
[03:35.460 --> 03:39.440]  You do tend to have an intense curiosity about these things.
[03:39.640 --> 03:43.080]  Tell me that you guys aren't interested in the same stuff.
[03:43.300 --> 03:44.180]  It's fascinating.
[03:44.180 --> 03:46.260]  No, we're completely fascinated by it.
[03:46.260 --> 03:47.940]  But you always seem to be on the front line.
[03:48.180 --> 03:49.560]  Yeah, Bernie, I see what you're saying.
[03:49.680 --> 03:51.320]  I mean, I completely understand it.
[03:51.440 --> 03:55.760]  You learn a lot about tactics and techniques and reasons they do certain things.
[03:56.720 --> 04:06.520]  There's a lot of planning that goes into some of these things and these layers that they are so proud of and work so hard to maintain to keep people protected.
[04:06.520 --> 04:09.060]  But just little subtle things.
[04:09.140 --> 04:13.440]  We've talked about, I don't know, manhole covers being welded.
[04:13.440 --> 04:15.720]  We've talked about all kinds of crazy things in the past.
[04:15.720 --> 04:17.640]  And every year they get new toys.
[04:17.640 --> 04:19.280]  It's good to see how our money is being spent.
[04:19.480 --> 04:23.040]  Did you learn anything specifically, Bernie, from seeing this?
[04:23.640 --> 04:32.520]  It just seems to be that it looked like the Philadelphia police were becoming increasingly militarily equipped.
[04:32.940 --> 04:43.460]  Some of the vehicles I saw, which were apparently owned and operated by the Philadelphia Police Department, were they looked brand new and they looked, you know, like armored personnel carriers.
[04:43.620 --> 04:46.660]  I think I sent a couple pictures of those, a few folks to look at.
[04:46.800 --> 04:58.280]  And I find the militarization of our municipal, you know, local police to be disturbing because it means they're arming up against, really, against the citizens.
[04:59.460 --> 05:07.340]  Sure, yeah, they could say they're arming up against terrorists, but, you know, everybody's a suspect.
[05:07.340 --> 05:09.140]  And that's what really concerns me.
[05:09.300 --> 05:13.360]  I think those personnel carriers you're talking about are called Bearcats.
[05:14.160 --> 05:14.520]  Ah.
[05:14.740 --> 05:19.420]  They're not as big as the MRAV, which is the replacement for the Hummer, which is used in Iraq.
[05:19.580 --> 05:30.540]  But you've got to ask yourself, if they're using vehicles that are, you know, derivatives of these vehicles that are used in war zones, what exactly, what eventuality, what are they afraid of, the people doing?
[05:31.140 --> 05:31.620]  Yeah, and...
[05:31.620 --> 05:36.760]  The top of this vehicle had like a, well, there's gun ports, you know, around it.
[05:36.760 --> 05:43.260]  But on the top, there's like a turret where, you know, somebody with a machine gun can pop their head out and shoot at people.
[05:43.440 --> 05:45.160]  But, yes, they have to have security.
[05:45.540 --> 05:46.640]  Bad things could happen.
[05:46.840 --> 05:50.420]  And they have to have a good defense against things that could truly go wrong.
[05:50.620 --> 05:52.280]  Well, Bernie, bad things have happened already.
[05:52.420 --> 05:56.060]  I'd like to know where our defense is, but that's another discussion.
[05:57.120 --> 06:00.460]  Okay, well, you know, there have been all kinds of interesting developments.
[06:00.620 --> 06:02.340]  This one kind of leaped out at me, though.
[06:02.340 --> 06:09.820]  Did you know that radio stations in a bunch of states have been hacked with what they call an anti-Trump rap?
[06:10.480 --> 06:11.360]  Get this.
[06:11.520 --> 06:13.400]  This is from the Associated Press.
[06:14.020 --> 06:23.080]  Radio stations in South Carolina and several other states say their signals were hacked and interrupted by an anti-Donald Trump rap song that contained obscene language.
[06:23.240 --> 06:23.960]  Oh, the horror.
[06:23.960 --> 06:36.360]  Multiple media outlets report a radio station in Salem, South Carolina, had a signal hacked Monday night and replaced by a rap played on a loop for at least 15 minutes, making a vulgar reference to Trump.
[06:37.860 --> 06:42.540]  WFBSFM said the hackers infiltrated the signal through its internet-connected antennas.
[06:43.280 --> 06:43.880]  Interesting.
[06:44.240 --> 06:51.520]  A statement from the station said it recovered the IP address of the suspected hackers and reported it to the Federal Communications Commission.
[06:51.520 --> 06:52.120]  Got news for you.
[06:52.220 --> 06:54.360]  You probably didn't get their actual IP.
[06:54.920 --> 07:00.140]  So based on what you're saying, they had some sort of Wi-Fi antenna at the transmitter site?
[07:00.200 --> 07:00.840]  Is that what you just said?
[07:00.940 --> 07:02.120]  I don't know if it was Wi-Fi.
[07:02.300 --> 07:03.340]  I don't think it was Wi-Fi.
[07:03.340 --> 07:04.140]  Just an IP.
[07:04.420 --> 07:09.600]  They used an IP address to get the signal down, and apparently that got hijacked.
[07:09.980 --> 07:13.100]  So it was part of maybe a microwave link or something like that?
[07:13.280 --> 07:16.020]  Or just a straight internet link.
[07:16.680 --> 07:19.660]  Not the smartest thing to do if you don't put security on it.
[07:21.520 --> 07:26.840]  The equipment in the transmitter facility was on the network, and that's how the signal was sent over IP and stuff.
[07:26.980 --> 07:29.500]  Barney, do you have a theory as to how exactly this was done?
[07:29.560 --> 07:30.280]  What does this sound like to you?
[07:30.840 --> 07:44.740]  A lot of it... I mean, I haven't heard the actual hack in this case, but the bottom line is a lot of... almost all radio stations now use an IP-based, an internet protocol-based studio-to-transmitter link.
[07:44.740 --> 07:45.920]  Even WBAI does.
[07:46.560 --> 08:03.260]  And if you know the IP address of the device at the transmitter end and know what kind of device it is, you can probably hack it and get audio to it, spoof the studio side of the studio-transmitter link.
[08:03.480 --> 08:07.720]  And a lot of... some stations apparently don't change the default password on them.
[08:07.760 --> 08:11.100]  But Bernie, I know you're not suggesting that we're vulnerable to anything like that.
[08:11.100 --> 08:11.940]  No, no, no.
[08:12.300 --> 08:13.920]  That could never happen here.
[08:14.580 --> 08:18.100]  These are southern states where the security is more lax.
[08:18.340 --> 08:22.480]  Yeah, we at WBAI do not believe in default settings for anything.
[08:22.780 --> 08:22.840]  Not at all.
[08:22.920 --> 08:23.140]  No.
[08:23.280 --> 08:24.300]  We are not defaults.
[08:24.300 --> 08:25.160]  Nothing's default here.
[08:25.260 --> 08:26.300]  By no stretch of any imagination.
[08:26.680 --> 08:29.800]  But in likelihood, I guess you could get a couple signals that way.
[08:30.760 --> 08:41.480]  Presumably, if you were able to access an administrative function, then maybe you're in a position to reprogram and reassociate not just one, but many IPs for various sites.
[08:41.580 --> 08:42.380]  That's really interesting, though.
[08:42.440 --> 08:42.660]  That's cool.
[08:42.840 --> 08:53.080]  Apparently, something is really going on because the media reports similar incidents have occurred recently at radio stations in Seattle, your hometown, Kyle, and Louisville, San Angelo, Texas.
[08:53.840 --> 08:59.760]  In fact, somehow a video featuring a song appeared on a cable television provider in Mooresville, North Carolina.
[09:00.520 --> 09:06.680]  So apparently, broadcasters are not safe as far as having their signals interrupted.
[09:06.680 --> 09:09.640]  Was it simultaneous or just in sort of a general time frame?
[09:09.880 --> 09:12.140]  You know, they don't mention if it was simultaneous.
[09:13.020 --> 09:17.020]  What they do mention is that it's the same song.
[09:17.200 --> 09:20.300]  It's something that just happened without any warning.
[09:20.360 --> 09:26.600]  And you have to wonder, you know, what is it exactly that is the security hole that made...
[09:35.640 --> 09:38.220]  Just when I thought it wasn't getting no sick.
[09:40.300 --> 09:44.860]  Woke up one morning and hurt this weird mother f***er talking out the side of his neck.
[09:47.280 --> 09:51.240]  Me and all my peoples, we always thought he was straight.
[09:53.300 --> 09:55.800]  Influential mother f***er when it came to the business.
[09:57.660 --> 10:04.300]  But now, since we know how you really feel, it's how we feel.
[10:04.840 --> 10:05.560]  Don't try.
[10:07.320 --> 10:08.060]  Don't try.
[10:08.580 --> 10:09.060]  Yeah.
[10:22.160 --> 10:22.860]  Don't try.
[10:23.400 --> 10:23.880]  Yeah.
[10:24.700 --> 10:27.040]  I like white folks, but I don't like you.
[10:27.340 --> 10:29.500]  All the d***s in the hood want to fight you.
[10:31.820 --> 10:34.440]  Surprise a nation, the Islam ain't trying to find you.
[10:34.800 --> 10:36.040]  Have a rally out in LA.
[10:36.360 --> 10:37.000]  You know what's up.
[10:37.120 --> 10:38.540]  Home of the riding, the king ride.
[10:38.680 --> 10:39.200]  We don't give them.
[10:39.580 --> 10:41.620]  Black students ejected from your rally.
[10:41.740 --> 10:41.820]  What?
[10:41.960 --> 10:42.960]  I'm ready to go right now.
[10:43.060 --> 10:44.640]  Your race is dead too much.
[10:44.640 --> 10:46.780]  I'm about to turn black panther.
[10:46.980 --> 10:49.300]  Don't let Donald Trump win that c*** cancer.
[10:49.720 --> 10:50.620]  He too rich.
[10:50.700 --> 10:51.660]  He ain't got the answers.
[10:51.900 --> 10:53.420]  He can't make decisions for this country.
[10:53.500 --> 10:54.420]  He gon' crash us.
[10:55.100 --> 10:56.920]  No, we can't be a slave for him.
[10:56.980 --> 10:58.160]  He got me appreciating.
[10:58.220 --> 10:59.240]  I'm about my way more.
[10:59.500 --> 11:00.220]  Hey, Donald.
[11:00.460 --> 11:01.400]  And there ain't one that follows.
[11:01.520 --> 11:03.080]  You gave us your reason to be president.
[11:03.300 --> 11:04.200]  But we hate y'all.
[11:04.220 --> 11:05.000]  Donald Trump.
[11:06.600 --> 11:07.480]  Donald Trump.
[11:08.240 --> 11:08.440]  Yeah.
[11:18.860 --> 11:19.740]  Donald Trump.
[11:20.340 --> 11:21.920]  Yeah, it's on my grandma.
[11:21.920 --> 11:22.180]  Trump.
[11:22.720 --> 11:23.240]  Yeah.
[11:24.600 --> 11:25.580]  Am I tripping?
[11:25.680 --> 11:26.120]  Let me know.
[11:26.300 --> 11:28.640]  I thought all that Donald Trump was a joke.
[11:29.000 --> 11:31.140]  Know what they say when rich s*** go broke.
[11:33.380 --> 11:34.800]  Look, Reagan so cold.
[11:35.020 --> 11:35.980]  Obama so ho.
[11:36.060 --> 11:38.480]  Donald Trump spent his trust fund money on the vote.
[11:38.900 --> 11:40.940]  I'm from a place where you probably can't go.
[11:41.360 --> 11:43.440]  Speaking for some people that you probably ain't know.
[11:43.760 --> 11:45.860]  There's pressure built up and it's probably gonna blow.
[11:46.140 --> 11:48.340]  And if we say go, then they probably gonna go.
[11:48.760 --> 11:50.940]  If you vote Trump, then you probably on the door.
[11:51.180 --> 11:53.320]  And if you like me, then you probably ain't know.
[11:53.520 --> 11:55.880]  And if you been in jail, you can probably still vote.
[11:56.060 --> 11:58.440]  If we let this s*** win, we gonna probably feel broke.
[11:58.660 --> 12:00.840]  You build wars, we gonna probably dick hoes.
[12:00.840 --> 12:02.140]  And if you don't do it.
[12:03.440 --> 12:04.360]  Donald Trump.
[12:04.960 --> 12:05.080]  Yo.
[12:07.570 --> 12:07.890]  Dead.
[12:08.350 --> 12:09.230]  Donald Trump.
[12:10.090 --> 12:10.710]  Yeah, F.
[12:10.830 --> 12:11.730]  Donald Trump.
[12:12.490 --> 12:12.670]  Yeah,
[12:20.910 --> 12:21.570]  Donald Trump.
[12:21.690 --> 12:21.930]  Hold up, hold up.
[12:21.930 --> 12:23.210]  Hold up, I got here to say, hold up.
[12:23.890 --> 12:24.810]  We the youth.
[12:25.510 --> 12:27.110]  We the people of this country.
[12:27.430 --> 12:28.730]  We got a voice too.
[12:29.190 --> 12:30.490]  We will be seen.
[12:30.730 --> 12:32.070]  And we will be heard.
[12:32.450 --> 12:34.190]  Hold up, I f*** with Mexicans.
[12:34.330 --> 12:35.450]  Got to plug with Mexicans.
[12:35.590 --> 12:36.630]  When a little need to switch.
[12:36.650 --> 12:37.730]  Who I call Mexicans.
[12:37.750 --> 12:38.530]  It's Comedy Central.
[12:38.970 --> 12:40.150]  Come be the president.
[12:40.290 --> 12:40.950]  Hold up, Nib.
[12:40.990 --> 12:42.790]  Tell the world how you f*** with Mexicans.
[12:42.990 --> 12:45.190]  It wouldn't be the USA without Mexicans.
[12:45.250 --> 12:47.630]  And if it's time to team up, let's begin.
[12:50.150 --> 12:52.570]  White people feel the same as my next to camp.
[12:52.910 --> 12:53.970]  Let this s*** win.
[12:54.070 --> 12:55.150]  God bless the kids.
[12:55.270 --> 12:56.350]  God bless the kids.
[12:56.470 --> 12:57.570]  It's wicked and weird.
[12:57.890 --> 13:00.070]  When me and Nib link, that's Bloods and Crips.
[13:00.250 --> 13:01.030]  When your L.A.
[13:01.090 --> 13:02.610]  rally, we gonna crash your...
[13:02.610 --> 13:03.710]  Donald Trump.
[13:05.390 --> 13:06.270]  Donald Trump.
[13:06.950 --> 13:07.190]  Yeah,
[13:19.710 --> 13:19.870]  yeah.
[13:20.190 --> 13:21.010]  Donald Trump.
[13:21.550 --> 13:21.990]  Yeah.
[13:22.610 --> 13:24.330]  Yeah, very, very funny, guys.
[13:24.470 --> 13:25.150]  Very funny.
[13:25.690 --> 13:28.330]  Okay, so I guess we're not as secure as we thought we were.
[13:28.550 --> 13:31.250]  Thanks, though, for playing the clean version of that song.
[13:31.250 --> 13:35.550]  I understand that every other syllable had to be bleeped out.
[13:35.670 --> 13:39.230]  That was YG and Nipsey Hussle's FDT.
[13:39.250 --> 13:43.230]  And you can guess what the FDT might stand for.
[13:43.410 --> 13:44.350]  But I liked it.
[13:44.430 --> 13:48.230]  And here it is, beamed out over a full power station in the middle of New York City now.
[13:48.230 --> 13:49.150]  So there you go.
[13:49.310 --> 13:50.050]  There's a message.
[13:51.370 --> 13:56.070]  But your radio station might be playing the uncensored version if you're not careful.
[13:56.210 --> 13:58.130]  So keep an eye out for that.
[13:59.130 --> 13:59.430]  Wow.
[13:59.530 --> 14:00.370]  Hacking radio stations.
[14:00.650 --> 14:01.570]  I'm into it.
[14:01.730 --> 14:03.770]  And I guess that's sort of what we're doing in slow motion.
[14:05.030 --> 14:11.590]  Moving on, I've got a kind of a personal thing to bring up here.
[14:11.690 --> 14:12.710]  And, Kyle, you are a witness to this.
[14:13.790 --> 14:14.630]  I have a laptop.
[14:14.910 --> 14:15.770]  Wait, we're doing personal?
[14:15.910 --> 14:16.810]  Personal things, yeah.
[14:16.950 --> 14:17.910]  It does personal ripening.
[14:17.910 --> 14:18.890]  Because I've got a lot right now.
[14:18.890 --> 14:20.950]  Yeah, my therapist says I need to do this at least once a week.
[14:21.030 --> 14:22.170]  And fortunately, that's when we're on.
[14:22.290 --> 14:22.790]  It's all pent up.
[14:22.910 --> 14:23.090]  Yeah.
[14:23.670 --> 14:24.330]  You go first.
[14:24.370 --> 14:25.010]  I run Windows.
[14:26.250 --> 14:27.050]  Okay, I said it.
[14:27.110 --> 14:28.650]  But, you know, I have lots and lots of machines.
[14:28.650 --> 14:30.750]  And I happen to run Windows on some of them.
[14:31.610 --> 14:33.610]  Because it does, you know, it's...
[14:33.610 --> 14:37.430]  Well, first of all, it allows you to know what you're talking about when something goes wrong.
[14:37.770 --> 14:40.230]  So you can say, yeah, I know exactly what the problem is.
[14:40.350 --> 14:41.570]  And this is no exception.
[14:42.190 --> 14:45.310]  But, you know, also run all kinds of different operating systems.
[14:46.330 --> 14:51.330]  Linux and FreeBSD and NetBSD and all kinds of things.
[14:51.350 --> 14:52.370]  We don't have to get into that right now.
[14:52.410 --> 14:53.230]  This is about Windows.
[14:53.430 --> 14:53.750]  All right?
[14:53.870 --> 14:56.510]  So deal with the fact that I have a laptop that runs Windows.
[14:56.530 --> 14:56.890]  Okay?
[14:56.890 --> 14:58.670]  And we'll just get through this a lot quicker.
[14:58.890 --> 15:02.090]  The other day, we were doing something on the laptop.
[15:02.090 --> 15:07.250]  And we noticed that the thing was rebooting and installing all kinds of security updates.
[15:07.650 --> 15:09.850]  And I, you know, I thought I was losing my mind.
[15:09.910 --> 15:14.570]  Because I swore that I had not allowed it to just do this whenever it felt like it.
[15:14.730 --> 15:30.250]  But apparently, apparently, Windows 10 has taken away the ability for users to choose to not have the computer reboot whenever it feels like rebooting and installing security updates.
[15:30.350 --> 15:31.250]  It's not entirely true.
[15:31.370 --> 15:32.190]  You do have some choice.
[15:32.370 --> 15:35.090]  I want to read something that was in PC Magazine.
[15:36.030 --> 15:44.530]  If you want to feel totally assured that Windows 10 won't restart your computer and install updates while you're busy working, you'll be pleased to know.
[15:46.230 --> 15:51.970]  I just love these Pravda-ish releases that tell you something that's an inconvenience.
[15:51.970 --> 15:52.850]  You'll be pleased to know about.
[15:52.970 --> 15:58.810]  You'll be pleased to know about the active hours feature that Microsoft has added in the anniversary update.
[15:58.810 --> 16:00.770]  This came out last August, actually.
[16:01.270 --> 16:07.750]  Now, mind you, Windows 10 is already pretty good about understanding when your PC is in use so as not to disrupt your activities with an update.
[16:07.950 --> 16:13.090]  In my experience, most Windows restarts are scheduled for early in the morning when you're not likely to be using your PC.
[16:13.330 --> 16:16.510]  You can also schedule the update to be installed at a specific time.
[16:16.950 --> 16:21.150]  Even so, Microsoft is giving users even more control over the update process.
[16:21.270 --> 16:23.290]  My God, let's rip that thing into pieces.
[16:24.210 --> 16:25.170]  More control?
[16:25.470 --> 16:26.370]  More control?
[16:26.370 --> 16:38.690]  How do we have more control when the thing is rebooting whenever it feels like rebooting and there's no longer an option to just turn it off or to install things at your convenience?
[16:39.130 --> 16:55.050]  Now, this hours thing, this hours garbage that they're talking about, you're allowed to indicate a period of time not to exceed 12 hours when your computer is considered in use and you don't want things to be updated and rebooted during that time.
[16:55.050 --> 16:55.990]  That's it.
[16:56.090 --> 17:01.290]  You can't have 12 hours and one minute of active time where this won't happen.
[17:01.550 --> 17:17.070]  You're supposed to trade all the wonderful things that have come with this latest version and accept those narrow configuration abilities for that particular action as a trade.
[17:17.070 --> 17:23.490]  This has interrupted people in the middle of giving speeches using Kino's software.
[17:23.970 --> 17:30.050]  Their computer decides to suddenly reboot at that time without any kind of consultation with the end user.
[17:30.730 --> 17:38.530]  It's affected people running art projects, doing extensive computing overnight.
[17:38.870 --> 17:41.850]  You know, I don't know how people use computers these days.
[17:41.850 --> 17:42.790]  I honestly don't.
[17:42.890 --> 17:43.890]  I must not.
[17:44.070 --> 17:48.390]  But I use computers in ways that they do things when I'm not there.
[17:48.670 --> 17:54.730]  Okay, we're involved in a huge project right now in coding 100,000 CDs for a different radio station.
[17:55.230 --> 17:56.290]  And guess what?
[17:56.370 --> 17:58.150]  It runs at night when we're asleep.
[17:58.510 --> 18:06.330]  Now, if we were to run Windows 10 on that particular machine, it would suddenly reboot in the middle of that and screw the whole thing up.
[18:06.330 --> 18:14.690]  Now, you know, Microsoft, if you're listening, you know, I cannot believe that you're the same company that interfaces with computer users.
[18:14.950 --> 18:18.110]  You must know something about the habits of people who use computers.
[18:18.450 --> 18:21.990]  And they tend to use them at all hours.
[18:21.990 --> 18:27.010]  You can't define, oh, I only use my computer from 9 to 5 and never at 8 o'clock at night.
[18:27.450 --> 18:29.410]  Or maybe they do things overnight.
[18:29.570 --> 18:36.010]  I've had Windows machines in the past that I have kept up for six months at a time without a reboot.
[18:36.650 --> 18:46.570]  And running things for most of that time, doing all kinds of projects and encoding and decrypting and whatnot, that is the nature of computing.
[18:46.890 --> 18:52.790]  Now, I know there are people also that just use a computer when they want to use it for work and they turn it off after that.
[18:52.850 --> 18:53.430]  And that's fine.
[18:53.610 --> 18:54.610]  That's a different habit.
[18:54.770 --> 19:01.190]  But to assume everybody plays by those rules, you're alienating a vast number of people.
[19:01.190 --> 19:05.850]  And if Apple stock goes up in the next few months, this is why.
[19:05.970 --> 19:07.990]  Because of the way you're treating your users.
[19:08.310 --> 19:09.970]  People need to have choice.
[19:10.130 --> 19:23.790]  And when we criticize technology, lots of times the people who believe in following this Winston Smith way of living, they'll say that we're being Luddites by criticizing, by questioning.
[19:24.150 --> 19:27.350]  And what we are doing is saying the technology is great.
[19:27.350 --> 19:30.790]  The implementation is what sucks and what needs to be fixed.
[19:31.830 --> 19:35.150]  The control of technology always needs to be in the hands of the people.
[19:35.390 --> 19:35.850]  All right.
[19:35.990 --> 19:39.390]  And that is something that Microsoft seems to have forgotten with Windows 10.
[19:39.630 --> 19:52.150]  An operating system that I will not be running on any machine now or in the future, unless they actually listen and do something about this and make it so that you can install an update whenever you want to install an update.
[19:52.190 --> 19:55.370]  And if you want to go six months without installing an update, you can do that.
[19:57.150 --> 19:58.010]  Yes, Rob?
[19:58.390 --> 20:01.590]  There was a story from last June, which I was fascinated by.
[20:02.130 --> 20:07.190]  There was an organization coordinating anti-poaching rangers in Africa.
[20:07.550 --> 20:09.830]  And they found themselves...
[20:09.830 --> 20:25.550]  They were running Windows 10 and they found themselves unable to stop as Windows decided to force a six gigabyte update over a slow connection, which they paid for per megabyte, and also actually put lives at risk because they're trying to coordinate people chasing bad guys with guns.
[20:25.810 --> 20:30.370]  You know, I had heard about that story and I had always assumed that it was their fault.
[20:30.390 --> 20:31.670]  And this is what a lot of people do.
[20:31.750 --> 20:33.370]  They make that assumption that it's the user's fault.
[20:33.570 --> 20:43.510]  I just figured they hadn't checked the right box or they just hadn't double checked themselves to make sure that it wasn't configured to just update whenever it felt like.
[20:43.510 --> 20:48.670]  But there is, in Windows 10, unlike previous editions, you don't have that option.
[20:48.810 --> 20:53.650]  You can only specify those hours when you prefer for your machine not to be rebooted.
[20:53.830 --> 20:55.730]  Rebooting a machine, to me, is a big deal, okay?
[20:55.850 --> 20:56.870]  I don't do that a lot.
[20:56.970 --> 20:59.010]  Some people do it, you know, many times a day.
[20:59.150 --> 21:00.830]  Some machines stay on for decades, though.
[21:01.130 --> 21:01.850]  Yeah, yeah.
[21:01.990 --> 21:07.190]  You know, we have some machines in our office that have been up for coming on 2,000 days straight.
[21:07.510 --> 21:08.410]  Think about that.
[21:09.190 --> 21:11.030]  So, yeah, people have different uses.
[21:11.390 --> 21:18.470]  It doesn't work for everybody, but to just assume everyone's going to play by the same rules, that's the worst mistake you can make when you're involved in technology.
[21:19.190 --> 21:21.130]  All right, so that's that.
[21:21.130 --> 21:23.390]  I want to welcome Alex into the studio.
[21:23.590 --> 21:24.850]  Alex, greetings.
[21:25.470 --> 21:25.890]  Good evening.
[21:26.930 --> 21:33.250]  You surprised me because you have a piece on the front page of CNN.com.
[21:33.250 --> 21:38.490]  And I don't know how you did it, but it's an amazing piece, all about 1984, Orwell.
[21:38.790 --> 21:40.330]  I just mentioned Winston Smith.
[21:41.290 --> 21:54.570]  And it basically is an editorial discussing all kinds of ways the Trump administration ties into the Orwellian landscape and ways that we can deal with it.
[21:54.670 --> 21:56.810]  Do you want to maybe summarize it a little better than that?
[21:57.150 --> 21:58.610]  Yeah, sure, I think.
[21:58.690 --> 22:01.730]  And thank you very much for the kind words about the op-ed.
[22:01.730 --> 22:09.210]  You know, it's something I'm frankly very proud of, and it's something in which your name comes up a couple of times as well, as I'm sure.
[22:09.370 --> 22:10.770]  Yeah, I've noticed.
[22:11.830 --> 22:27.890]  It's a very interesting article because it not only is a bit personal in the sense of it talks about my experience in 1984, the first meeting of Manuel back in the 90s at 2600 meetings, and the fact that I had dogs that were named Winston and Julia.
[22:27.890 --> 22:36.710]  And my son's middle name is Winston, after the protagonist, Winston Smith, from 1984, whom you've already referenced, and Julia, his counterpart.
[22:37.690 --> 22:39.410]  You can read the article for yourself and get that.
[22:39.410 --> 22:42.870]  You got to talk about your dog in a CNN editorial.
[22:43.230 --> 22:43.570]  I know.
[22:43.890 --> 22:46.150]  I mean, if that's not a hack, I don't know what is.
[22:46.970 --> 22:48.710]  Yeah, how do you get that?
[22:48.870 --> 22:50.090]  Oh, wow, I'm in awe.
[22:50.290 --> 22:50.910]  I'm really in awe.
[22:50.950 --> 22:52.750]  It's a great article, too, and it's long.
[22:52.930 --> 22:53.370]  It is.
[22:53.450 --> 22:54.290]  It's very long.
[22:54.370 --> 23:00.230]  And I have to say, I was extremely lucky to work with really great editors over at CNN to get the piece out.
[23:00.290 --> 23:04.830]  And we went through several revisions, and I was extraordinarily happy with the way it turned out.
[23:04.910 --> 23:08.210]  And there's been, I think, it's been widely applauded and lauded.
[23:08.210 --> 23:21.650]  And I'm really happy about that, because it's extremely important, I think, that we draw in detail the parallels of what's happening with the current administration to the actions of the fictional state of Oshania in 1984.
[23:21.870 --> 23:23.110]  Well, can you name a couple of those?
[23:23.190 --> 23:23.810]  Oh, jeez.
[23:23.950 --> 23:25.070]  I mean, where do we start, right?
[23:25.230 --> 23:26.930]  I mean, what are the interesting...
[23:26.930 --> 23:28.150]  We threatened to invade Mexico today.
[23:28.330 --> 23:29.310]  Did you guys hear about that?
[23:30.110 --> 23:30.530]  I mean, I'm not surprised.
[23:30.530 --> 23:36.550]  You can start with maybe some zealous adventurism in different countries or whatever you feel like.
[23:36.610 --> 23:38.110]  I think we should start with Trenton, New Jersey.
[23:38.210 --> 23:39.090]  Oh, okay.
[23:39.390 --> 23:39.450]  Let's do that.
[23:39.450 --> 23:40.730]  Trenton makes the world takes, yes.
[23:41.030 --> 23:41.350]  Absolutely.
[23:42.250 --> 23:51.530]  But to go back to your question, I think there's been a lot of articles out there over the last week or so about a resurgence in an interest in 1984.
[23:51.870 --> 23:53.190]  It's been flying off the shelves.
[23:53.370 --> 23:54.050]  It has.
[23:54.230 --> 24:00.050]  It's risen just about 10,000% since Trump's inauguration.
[24:00.150 --> 24:08.110]  You know, I got to say, and this is probably the only positive thing I will say about Trump ever, is that he has been very good.
[24:08.210 --> 24:12.590]  for sales of 1984 and for contributions to the ACLU.
[24:13.130 --> 24:13.770]  That's true.
[24:13.910 --> 24:14.010]  Right.
[24:14.230 --> 24:15.170]  So thank you for that.
[24:15.430 --> 24:18.930]  And hopefully for us, too, when our fundraiser begins next week.
[24:19.170 --> 24:20.130]  That's a very good point.
[24:20.250 --> 24:20.410]  Yeah.
[24:20.710 --> 24:21.450]  Very, very good point.
[24:21.450 --> 24:21.930]  That's it.
[24:22.070 --> 24:22.970]  Yeah, that's it.
[24:23.110 --> 24:34.710]  So a lot of these articles, they've made these sort of glib connections between Kellyanne Conway's gambit about alternative facts and making a parallel with doublethink.
[24:34.930 --> 24:48.770]  You know, this notion, and actually I'll quote 1984 specifically or rather directly, the definition of doublethink, and he wasn't describing Donald Trump, that is, George Orwell, when he wrote this.
[24:48.930 --> 24:56.270]  It is essentially to hold simultaneously two opinions which canceled out, knowing them both to be contradictory and believing both of them.
[24:56.330 --> 24:57.530]  That's doublethink.
[24:57.650 --> 25:11.030]  And most importantly, to tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed.
[25:11.170 --> 25:12.510]  So, okay, let me see if I understand this.
[25:12.570 --> 25:29.230]  So if, say, a member of an administration were to try and get something known as a Muslim ban enacted, and then later to say with, you know, an honest face that it's not a ban, and that ban is the wrong word to use, and it's the media's fault that that word has come up,
[25:29.690 --> 25:31.630]  even though they use the word themselves.
[25:31.630 --> 25:34.210]  That's an example of doublethink, correct?
[25:34.430 --> 25:35.570]  Yeah, that's near oblivion, right?
[25:36.050 --> 25:36.570]  Absolutely.
[25:36.910 --> 25:37.370]  Absolutely.
[25:37.690 --> 25:37.750]  All right.
[25:37.790 --> 25:44.650]  And it also, you know, as I argue in the piece, what's happening with the administration goes beyond doublethink.
[25:44.970 --> 25:45.670]  Tripplethink, maybe?
[25:45.830 --> 25:52.610]  It's also, it's this sort of concept that's known as black-white, and it's really to believe that black is white.
[25:52.630 --> 25:57.410]  When the party demands that you believe that, that is what you are required to believe.
[25:57.570 --> 26:01.610]  I can say, honestly, that I do not believe Donald Trump thinks black is white.
[26:02.350 --> 26:06.830]  I think you're probably right about that, but we do have a situation...
[26:06.830 --> 26:08.250]  He doesn't know who Frederick Douglass is.
[26:08.670 --> 26:09.870]  Can you believe that?
[26:09.870 --> 26:10.710]  That came out today.
[26:10.990 --> 26:11.850]  I didn't get that right.
[26:11.970 --> 26:12.110]  Yeah.
[26:12.470 --> 26:12.950]  That's crazy.
[26:12.950 --> 26:17.670]  You have to keep updated to the minute to get the news stories coming out of this administration.
[26:17.830 --> 26:18.670]  It really is amazing.
[26:18.670 --> 26:28.150]  I mean, I argued in a piece that one indication of this was when Donald Trump made his infamous speech in front of the CIA memorial wall.
[26:29.310 --> 26:36.390]  And I quoted him directly in it, you know, where he basically said, you know, I saw, I saw a million, I saw a million and a half people.
[26:37.850 --> 26:39.870]  I think he really believed that.
[26:40.050 --> 26:40.710]  I really do.
[26:40.910 --> 26:52.610]  And it's part of this revisionist nature that he has where he and his administration really expect their version of reality to be created for them after the fact.
[26:52.610 --> 27:01.910]  If they just set the tone, they just, you know, give you the general parameters and then everybody has to run with it to its logical or illogical extent.
[27:02.090 --> 27:02.870]  That's exactly right.
[27:02.870 --> 27:03.530]  On their behalf.
[27:03.770 --> 27:03.890]  Yeah.
[27:04.010 --> 27:22.410]  And it's all predicated on this really highly offensive assumption, erroneous assumption, that we are all going to go along with it, that the media is going to go along with it, that Emmanuel is, and that I'm going to, because we should just believe what he says because of his outright war on the media,
[27:22.550 --> 27:26.570]  he's trying to discredit them so that his version of the truth is really what counts.
[27:26.770 --> 27:28.090]  And maybe it's good for us.
[27:28.250 --> 27:28.610]  Yes.
[27:28.790 --> 27:30.010]  That's, that, that's exactly right.
[27:30.010 --> 27:30.510]  There's an off chance.
[27:30.730 --> 27:30.870]  Yeah.
[27:31.070 --> 27:36.510]  Well, in another country or in another time in this country, maybe that would have worked.
[27:36.710 --> 27:37.130]  Perhaps.
[27:37.390 --> 27:41.590]  You know, maybe in the future that will work, but I don't think it's playing very well right now.
[27:41.890 --> 27:42.150]  No.
[27:42.370 --> 27:43.050]  How's it going?
[27:43.210 --> 27:45.890]  We still have freedom of the press.
[27:46.050 --> 27:47.650]  We still have free speech.
[27:47.650 --> 27:49.990]  Which, we have not sunk into the oblivion.
[27:50.050 --> 27:54.890]  We're 27 minutes into the show and we haven't checked, but I think, I think we still do.
[27:55.570 --> 27:56.390]  I get alerts.
[27:56.550 --> 27:57.250]  I haven't had anything yet.
[27:57.450 --> 27:58.310]  Yeah, that, that's true.
[27:58.550 --> 27:59.550]  Yeah, but who controls your alerts, Kyle?
[27:59.670 --> 27:59.970]  Come on.
[28:00.290 --> 28:01.830]  They, they can turn those off in a second.
[28:02.070 --> 28:04.710]  You know, Donald Trump can send you a message and you can't turn it off.
[28:04.810 --> 28:05.850]  It's the Trump app, actually.
[28:05.850 --> 28:07.370]  You know he's going to do that at some point.
[28:07.510 --> 28:08.690]  You guys don't have the Trump app?
[28:09.490 --> 28:10.990]  There probably is a Trump app, so.
[28:11.090 --> 28:12.190]  That's where I get my info.
[28:12.390 --> 28:12.570]  We don't have one.
[28:12.570 --> 28:13.490]  Or there will be.
[28:14.070 --> 28:14.730]  Oh boy.
[28:14.930 --> 28:17.050]  So what kinds of responses have you gotten so far?
[28:17.850 --> 28:18.650]  Extremely positive.
[28:19.030 --> 28:19.750]  Extremely positive.
[28:20.030 --> 28:28.530]  I, you know, I, I think a lot of people have, have reached out to me, you know, randomly from around the world, in fact, and said, you know, you've given me hope.
[28:28.750 --> 28:33.150]  You know, your writing was, was excellent and, and hopeful at the end of it.
[28:33.250 --> 28:41.410]  Because, you know, one of the things I tried to argue is that, you know, 1984 really is this book about a doom and gloom and foreboding and portentous to an extent.
[28:41.710 --> 28:44.710]  But there is, I think, a semblance of hope in it.
[28:44.710 --> 28:55.670]  Even though the protagonists at the end of it ultimately learned to love Big Brother, it's supposed to serve as a reminder of what we have in our society and what we have in our lives currently.
[28:56.290 --> 28:59.370]  And, and that which we should hold onto at all costs.
[28:59.510 --> 29:03.090]  I feel like I should be asking for money for WBAI after I make this statement.
[29:03.090 --> 29:04.050]  That's what I'm used to doing.
[29:04.410 --> 29:16.730]  But, you know, it, I would, I would like to read one passage from the article, if that's okay, which I think it's, I think that's fine, if you have all the appropriate permissions and copyright restrictions cleared away, and it doesn't annoy Donald Trump too much.
[29:17.010 --> 29:17.210]  Yeah.
[29:17.850 --> 29:18.830]  I'm all for it.
[29:18.930 --> 29:23.450]  I make this, this point that basically, you know, we, we are trying to be teared apart by lies.
[29:23.670 --> 29:32.350]  But Orwell makes the point in the novel itself that there are very simple truths, and those simple truths about human beings generally are what bind us together.
[29:32.350 --> 29:33.950]  And I'll, I'll quote him directly.
[29:34.230 --> 29:40.570]  He says, it's curious to think that the sky was the same for everybody in Eurasia or East Asia, as well as here.
[29:40.730 --> 29:43.230]  Those are the two fictitious countries that are supposedly at war.
[29:43.530 --> 29:59.130]  And the people under the sky were also very much the same everywhere, all over the world, hundreds or thousands of millions of people just like this, people ignorant of one another's existence, held apart by walls of hatred and lies, and yet almost exactly the same.
[30:02.350 --> 30:07.310]  And their hearts and bellies and muscles, the power that would one day overturn the world.
[30:07.670 --> 30:09.990]  And I think that's a very, very powerful message.
[30:10.170 --> 30:11.470]  I try to end the piece on that.
[30:11.630 --> 30:15.210]  I would, I would definitely recommend everybody go and check it out.
[30:15.330 --> 30:16.430]  It's on CNN.com.
[30:16.590 --> 30:17.590]  It's on the opinion page.
[30:17.590 --> 30:24.730]  If it's not on the main page at the moment, you'll find it on the 2600 Twitter account, my, my account as well.
[30:25.810 --> 30:31.070]  But I think there are, there's even more than that, there's, there's, there's so many parallels.
[30:31.070 --> 30:37.190]  I mean, I could have gone on probably for a hundred pages just based on the first week of the administration about how deep these parallels run.
[30:37.990 --> 30:48.890]  I think another one that's worth mentioning briefly is the fact that in you had, in 1984, you have these ministries, for instance, the Ministry of Truth, a new speak called Mini Truth.
[30:49.150 --> 30:51.230]  And the Ministry of Truth has nothing to do with truth.
[30:51.350 --> 30:57.730]  The function is actually the historical fabrication of, I'm sorry, the fabrication of historical truths.
[30:57.730 --> 31:15.990]  So we have a, I think, a very direct parallel here when you have cabinet appointments for heads of federal departments whose opinions and, and beliefs are diametrically opposed, in fact, opposite to the very function of that department.
[31:16.270 --> 31:23.950]  I mean, you have somebody like, like Betsy DeVos, who, who does, who's supposed to head the Department of Education, but doesn't believe in public education.
[31:24.830 --> 31:32.470]  And I made the point that, you know, she's in favor of something called school choice, which sounds like it's right out of the dictionary of new speak in 1984.
[31:33.510 --> 31:37.510]  School choice is, you know, about giving you the choice to attend private or public schools.
[31:37.650 --> 31:52.470]  But in effect, a lot of the major criticism of this concept of school choice has been that it will suck funding away from public education and funnel it over towards private education, benefiting rich families and, and detracting from poor families.
[31:52.710 --> 31:54.710]  So, yeah, and that's not it.
[31:54.790 --> 31:57.710]  I mean, you have Andy Pudzer, who is supposed to be heading the Department of Labor.
[31:57.890 --> 32:14.850]  And he has, in fact, praised the efficiency of robots and automatons over human beings, because they don't take vacation days, and they have the inability to file racial discrimination claims, things like that.
[32:15.310 --> 32:16.210]  That's a pretty...
[32:16.210 --> 32:17.170]  Just wait, all right?
[32:17.450 --> 32:19.690]  We're going to lead the robots in an uprising.
[32:19.930 --> 32:21.710]  It's a pretty cynical way to look at labor, though.
[32:21.930 --> 32:22.810]  Oh, yeah, yeah.
[32:23.050 --> 32:23.910]  To say the least.
[32:24.750 --> 32:25.610]  Yeah, it is.
[32:25.830 --> 32:27.510]  So, I mean, there's parallel after parallel.
[32:27.730 --> 32:32.510]  The piece goes on for, I think, quite a long time, as opposed to many opinion pieces.
[32:32.510 --> 32:39.470]  And, again, I really do have to applaud CNN for allowing me to go on that way, and, in fact, encouraging me to add to it.
[32:39.750 --> 32:56.490]  And I think that speaks volumes about the stance of the media against the current administration, because fundamentally what we're talking about here is something that's extremely offensive, and that's that the administration does not care for the truth,
[32:56.490 --> 33:08.570]  and that they are willing to espouse lies, and that they are willing to make completely unsupportable, ridiculous allegations, things like rampant voter fraud with no supporting evidence whatsoever.
[33:08.790 --> 33:11.210]  And then it's our job to disprove it.
[33:11.310 --> 33:12.410]  So the burden has shifted.
[33:12.670 --> 33:21.030]  He's allowed to say things, he being President Trump, is allowed to say things with no support whatsoever, and it is true and less proven false.
[33:21.350 --> 33:22.690]  That's crazy.
[33:23.150 --> 33:25.450]  That's the world turned upside down.
[33:25.610 --> 33:26.890]  We have to fight against that.
[33:26.890 --> 33:35.670]  Yeah, and they're willing to spread and disseminate those untruths no matter what the cost.
[33:35.970 --> 33:36.410]  Absolutely.
[33:36.410 --> 33:45.190]  No matter what lies, who, and how that affects the rest of the world, it takes a back seat to their prerogative.
[33:45.550 --> 33:46.470]  Yep, absolutely.
[33:47.150 --> 33:52.350]  And one thing I should mention, too, that I haven't seen very much criticism of the article, but some of it I have.
[33:52.350 --> 33:58.030]  And some people, well, I mean, the comments section of any article is always fun to read.
[33:58.750 --> 34:02.730]  I think there's about 1,200 or so at the moment, or well over 1,000.
[34:02.750 --> 34:04.710]  You have 1,200 responses to your column?
[34:04.770 --> 34:06.470]  Yeah, it's really, it's incredible.
[34:06.630 --> 34:07.390]  CNN comments.
[34:07.650 --> 34:07.870]  Yeah.
[34:08.130 --> 34:08.330]  Wow.
[34:08.370 --> 34:09.370]  It's really something.
[34:09.690 --> 34:11.690]  I'm sure there are some critical ones in there someplace.
[34:12.010 --> 34:12.710]  There were, yeah.
[34:12.750 --> 34:15.110]  You try not to read, you know, who has the time for that?
[34:15.110 --> 34:29.870]  But, anyway, a lot of the comments, though, are that, well, you know, people are banding about Orwell lately, and they're misusing him for political purposes, and that stuff is Orwellian only because it's a Republican in the administration.
[34:30.410 --> 34:36.730]  And to that, I have to say, we called out Obama when he was up to Orwellian nonsense as well, and we still do.
[34:36.810 --> 34:39.150]  And, in fact, I do in the article as well if you read through it.
[34:39.150 --> 34:45.390]  But we called out as Orwellian the surveillance apparatus that we learned was turned inward and not just outward.
[34:46.010 --> 34:53.790]  And we learned that from Edward Snowden in 2013, and that's why there was a resurgence of 1984 sales in 2013 as well.
[34:54.150 --> 35:05.810]  And another criticism that I've seen is that, well, when we criticize cabinet appointments like this, we call them Orwellian not because they're really Orwellian in nature, but because they're Republican policies.
[35:06.070 --> 35:08.630]  But it's not really much of a defense, I would have to say.
[35:08.630 --> 35:11.010]  If the Republican policies are, in fact, Orwellian in nature.
[35:11.650 --> 35:16.910]  But for all the reasons that we just described, I mean, this does sound very, very Orwellian to me.
[35:16.970 --> 35:22.810]  It sounds exactly like it was taken from a page in 1984 to appoint these people to run federal agencies.
[35:23.130 --> 35:26.830]  So, I mean, the criticism I've seen has been kind of thinly veiled and weak.
[35:27.090 --> 35:29.430]  I think the parallels are extremely strong.
[35:29.510 --> 35:32.550]  And I think it's a very, very dangerous omen that we're facing.
[35:33.190 --> 35:35.330]  Well, Alex, congratulations on getting that printed.
[35:35.550 --> 35:38.430]  And, you know, inspiration to, I think, everybody in the hacker community.
[35:38.630 --> 35:52.790]  That one of us can go out there and have a massive piece on CNN.com and refer to the hacker community in positive terms as a reference to WBAI, as a reference to 2600 meetings and the 2600 magazine.
[35:52.930 --> 35:55.090]  I noticed they didn't let you link to 2600.
[35:55.210 --> 35:56.550]  I think that's a CNN thing.
[35:56.890 --> 35:57.570]  That's true, too.
[35:57.710 --> 35:59.450]  They didn't link to my law firm either.
[35:59.730 --> 36:01.670]  So, it might be a CNN thing or, you know...
[36:01.670 --> 36:03.050]  I think they're afraid to link to us.
[36:03.130 --> 36:04.330]  Yeah, that's true.
[36:04.910 --> 36:06.950]  You know, and one of the things that they also mentioned...
[36:06.950 --> 36:18.930]  Well, I'm sorry, that they let me print and, you know, and that I put in the article deliberately and I should say is that I think, in large part, a lot of this is possible because of the community that we belong to.
[36:19.750 --> 36:22.650]  And I mentioned that you and I have been friends for about 25 years.
[36:23.770 --> 36:27.190]  And you, I think, should take some responsibility for this article, too.
[36:27.890 --> 36:29.630]  I mean that in all sincerity.
[36:29.930 --> 36:31.930]  Responsibility is a different word than credit.
[36:32.530 --> 36:33.970]  Well, that's a good point, actually.
[36:33.970 --> 36:35.590]  Sounds kind of like a penalty of some sort.
[36:35.610 --> 36:37.210]  I think you should share some blame in this, too.
[36:37.390 --> 36:37.630]  Yeah, all right.
[36:37.710 --> 36:39.090]  Well, my name is definitely on a list.
[36:39.130 --> 36:39.790]  Yeah, it is.
[36:39.890 --> 36:47.930]  But it's there and I think it's part of what's fostered in this community as well is critical thinking no matter who is in office.
[36:47.930 --> 36:49.750]  And it's not about politics.
[36:49.750 --> 36:50.770]  It's about truth.
[36:50.990 --> 36:51.710]  It's about freedom.
[36:51.850 --> 36:52.550]  It's about privacy.
[36:52.770 --> 36:54.670]  That's what it's always been in this community.
[36:54.850 --> 36:55.990]  That will never change.
[36:56.330 --> 36:56.450]  Yeah.
[36:56.930 --> 36:57.710]  Go ahead, Kyle.
[36:57.810 --> 37:02.330]  No, the trope of like dissenting because we're Republicans, you're Republicans and that's why...
[37:02.330 --> 37:03.830]  No, dissent is always going to be there.
[37:03.890 --> 37:04.730]  That is our job.
[37:04.870 --> 37:05.590]  That's exactly right.
[37:05.650 --> 37:06.790]  We're contrarian by nature.
[37:06.910 --> 37:08.370]  That's why we're on WBAI.
[37:08.570 --> 37:08.710]  Yeah.
[37:08.790 --> 37:12.490]  We'd be saying the same stuff about Hillary if she was in office and she pulled the same stunts.
[37:12.690 --> 37:13.090]  Absolutely.
[37:13.670 --> 37:14.070]  Exactly.
[37:14.070 --> 37:27.750]  If you go back through the archives of 2600 Magazine or this program or, you know, things talked about at the conferences or whatever, you will find critical things through how many presidential organizations, presidential administrations this has been going through now.
[37:28.150 --> 37:33.250]  You know, this program since 1988, HOPE since 1994 and everything else.
[37:33.430 --> 37:41.650]  And yeah, we've been through both flavors of president multiple times and we've always found our things to criticize about them.
[37:41.970 --> 37:44.110]  And they've found things to criticize about us.
[37:44.230 --> 37:46.510]  I've yet to meet an administration that embraces hackers.
[37:46.510 --> 37:47.050]  Yeah.
[37:47.110 --> 37:56.990]  But it's also nice to be talked about on CNN.com without, you know, the stock photo of a guy in a balaclava at a keyboard talking about hackers that way.
[37:57.810 --> 38:03.870]  Yeah, with like sensational, yeah, cliches thrown in just for good measure.
[38:04.590 --> 38:05.530]  Bernie, did you have something?
[38:06.330 --> 38:07.310]  I was just reading.
[38:07.430 --> 38:08.870]  I did not know about this op-ed.
[38:09.030 --> 38:10.230]  Congratulations, Alex.
[38:10.470 --> 38:10.870]  Well done.
[38:11.410 --> 38:13.810]  I was just reading it over as you folks were discussing it.
[38:13.950 --> 38:16.470]  And what a great media hack, frankly.
[38:16.470 --> 38:18.130]  That was brilliant.
[38:18.410 --> 38:32.050]  And it's really refreshing to see that, you know, some mainstream news organizations have a bad reputation for being just too, or not edgy enough.
[38:32.540 --> 38:44.610]  And for CNN to sort of step out of that, or CNN.com rather, to step out from that and publish something that's really this edgy, it's impressive.
[38:44.950 --> 38:53.890]  And I hope all the feedback they get from this article breeds more of this kind of editorialism on their website.
[38:54.490 --> 38:56.590]  Yeah, you know, and I thank you very much for that, Bernie.
[38:56.730 --> 39:04.350]  In fact, you know, some of the more favorable comments have actually said, you know, this was one of the better pieces that we've seen in a long time.
[39:04.510 --> 39:08.170]  It said, you know, it's longer, but, you know, they really enjoyed it.
[39:08.290 --> 39:11.830]  And that was what the editors said to me when I was working on this.
[39:11.910 --> 39:16.570]  I said, they actually had asked me to add this and add that.
[39:16.690 --> 39:19.850]  And I said, well, it's going to make it a lot longer.
[39:19.970 --> 39:21.190]  And they said, but you know what?
[39:21.290 --> 39:22.730]  I think the readers will enjoy it.
[39:22.790 --> 39:23.450]  So do it.
[39:23.870 --> 39:38.910]  Well, it's something also, I think it's a message to many of our listeners and readers to write, write something, whether it's for CNN, whether it's for 2600, whether it's for your website or your school paper, you're always better off having written something.
[39:39.110 --> 39:45.770]  You get your thoughts down, you express your opinions, or you describe something that you have unique knowledge of.
[39:46.210 --> 39:51.090]  And there's really no good excuse not to write something.
[39:51.250 --> 39:52.790]  You know, I think you're absolutely right.
[39:52.950 --> 40:03.830]  And when you do that, when you sit down to write it, you know, you realize that the hard work that goes into formulating ideas and arguments and making them cogent, making them coherent, it takes a long time.
[40:04.090 --> 40:10.950]  I mean, for this particular article, it probably took me about 35 hours in total to put the entire thing together.
[40:11.190 --> 40:12.390]  That's a lot of work.
[40:12.490 --> 40:17.210]  That's basically like a full week's worth of work on top of working full time.
[40:17.490 --> 40:17.830]  Yeah, you're a lawyer.
[40:18.010 --> 40:20.370]  I mean, you can't just be writing articles.
[40:20.770 --> 40:23.010]  No, you do this at night, in the middle of the night.
[40:23.170 --> 40:24.550]  That's when it happens.
[40:24.550 --> 40:28.430]  I mean, you know full well how the creative process works like this.
[40:28.970 --> 40:31.370]  But speaking of which, Rob brought up an interesting point.
[40:31.430 --> 40:34.010]  And I think this is another kudos to CNN.
[40:34.770 --> 40:38.010]  There is no stock photo of a hacker and a balaclava keyboard.
[40:39.050 --> 40:42.390]  They actually created brand new artwork for the piece.
[40:42.550 --> 40:42.890]  Wow.
[40:42.890 --> 40:44.510]  Which is very, very cool.
[40:44.730 --> 40:54.970]  And it has a, you know, a kind of skinny guy with glasses holding up the novel of 1984 with the luminous figure of Donald Trump, you know, hovering over them.
[40:55.130 --> 40:56.170]  Yeah, he's got the puppeteer hands.
[40:56.170 --> 40:58.830]  Yeah, the puppeteer hands and the smug face.
[40:59.170 --> 41:00.290]  Hold that up to the microphone.
[41:00.470 --> 41:00.950]  That's great.
[41:01.150 --> 41:01.290]  Yeah.
[41:01.550 --> 41:02.570]  Can you guys see that?
[41:02.570 --> 41:05.030]  Listeners with the enhanced package, you can see this now.
[41:05.090 --> 41:05.530]  That's right.
[41:13.190 --> 41:15.070]  The obligatory spooks.
[41:15.330 --> 41:16.290]  Yes, the spooks.
[41:16.430 --> 41:16.810]  Exactly.
[41:17.070 --> 41:22.350]  But I was so pleased to see that they actually created a graphic for the piece.
[41:22.810 --> 41:23.850]  That's saying a lot.
[41:24.330 --> 41:24.510]  Yeah.
[41:24.630 --> 41:24.850]  Wow.
[41:24.930 --> 41:43.010]  It's brilliant that you saw the need and the opportunity or just the moment where being succinct and drawing these parallels and really explaining it so that it's portable so other people can get where it fits in that story and what is unfolding before us,
[41:43.070 --> 41:47.030]  that it is strongly connected and there are some very serious parallels.
[41:47.270 --> 41:48.350]  Yeah, there absolutely are.
[41:48.570 --> 42:03.790]  And to encourage others to do the same, I would have to say, you know, you may not get your first choice of publisher for any content that you create, and you may be outright rejected, but it's such great practice to write, to get your thoughts down, to argue.
[42:04.030 --> 42:04.730]  It's wonderful.
[42:04.730 --> 42:11.650]  And frankly, if you don't get your first choice, I guarantee you, and your second or third or fourth try, you will have something published.
[42:11.810 --> 42:18.090]  If you have good ideas and you write them clearly and articulately, somebody will be interested in what you have to say.
[42:18.290 --> 42:20.270]  And it's well worth checking out this article.
[42:20.570 --> 42:25.070]  Listeners, if you need a link, you can go to 2600 on Twitter and find the link there.
[42:25.610 --> 42:32.010]  But also, I wholeheartedly agree with the point in the article that 1984 is a work worth revisiting.
[42:32.010 --> 42:38.870]  I don't think it's any secret that any of us in this room have great admiration for 1984 as a piece of literature.
[42:39.290 --> 42:47.790]  But if it's been a while since you've read it, if you've never read it, you know, if you just want to watch the film, definitely check it out because it's illuminating.
[42:47.790 --> 42:49.070]  And, yeah.
[42:49.650 --> 42:52.170]  John Hurt died, the star of 1984.
[42:52.410 --> 42:52.690]  We did.
[42:52.690 --> 43:03.870]  On the 25th of January, we lost Sir John Hurt and the star of the 1984 film version of 1984, which was filmed in the settings and dates that the events of the book took place.
[43:04.390 --> 43:08.350]  And, yeah, it's a terrible shame.
[43:08.350 --> 43:13.770]  He was a wonderful actor, but also it's all the more reason to revisit the story in whatever means you can.
[43:13.770 --> 43:17.630]  We should put together a tribute to him for the outro for tonight's show.
[43:17.750 --> 43:18.530]  Could you work on that?
[43:18.770 --> 43:19.710]  I'll get right on that.
[43:19.850 --> 43:20.130]  Thank you.
[43:20.870 --> 43:37.470]  Also, this, just in the Brooklyn Public Library, is starting an in-depth book discussion series centered around George Orwell's classic dystopian novel, 1984, which, as we've mentioned, has seen a surge in sales in the wake of President Trump's humiliating popular vote loss to Hillary Clinton.
[43:37.470 --> 43:43.790]  The series, dubbed 1984-48, a book discussion, starts...
[43:43.790 --> 43:45.710]  Actually, I think it started last month.
[43:45.870 --> 43:48.350]  It's scheduled to continue for 48 consecutive months.
[43:48.350 --> 43:56.090]  That's four years, at which point we'll either have a different president or we can start the discussion series all over again with the road.
[43:57.090 --> 43:58.050]  Yeah, sure.
[44:00.610 --> 44:02.810]  Basically, this is going to be happening...
[44:03.290 --> 44:06.130]  I understand this month is completely booked.
[44:06.450 --> 44:11.590]  February cycle is completely booked, but you can register for the March sessions online.
[44:12.210 --> 44:22.550]  Or to put that in Trumpspeak, nobody is showing up for this sad loser pity party for a terrible not-very-nice book that almost no one read, even after they turned it into a pretty good computer commercial.
[44:22.690 --> 44:23.050]  Sad.
[44:24.130 --> 44:28.930]  Read that article on Gothamist.com, and they have a link to the registration site.
[44:29.010 --> 44:30.690]  But yeah, Brooklyn Public Library.
[44:30.950 --> 44:33.670]  Yeah, and what's worth noting about that is they're not just discussing the book.
[44:33.770 --> 44:40.130]  They're also getting people in to talk about related subjects, activism subjects, community organizing, sign-making, things like that.
[44:40.270 --> 44:43.490]  So all sorts of relevant info floating around at those events.
[44:43.630 --> 44:52.130]  Since we somehow wound up back at the topic of Trump, I figured I should update people on what we discussed last week with Trump's Twitter account.
[44:52.990 --> 45:11.090]  This headline from the Daily Mail the day after our radio show aired, where we were actually on the air live, not attempting to reset Donald Trump's password, but showing the message that we would get if we did try that, and seeing an email, a bit of an email address that was a clue.
[45:11.090 --> 45:15.130]  If we had been able to hijack that email address, we would have been able to reset his password.
[45:15.250 --> 45:15.950]  That's all it took.
[45:15.950 --> 45:24.150]  Well, the headline reads, Trump's Twitter account is hastily reset after a hacker revealed a private Gmail account was being used to secure his POTUS handle.
[45:24.390 --> 45:25.570]  Now, that was not us.
[45:25.570 --> 45:28.570]  We were reporting on the story, but we were demonstrating it live.
[45:28.830 --> 45:40.630]  However, the email linked to Donald Trump's Twitter account was hastily reset Thursday after it emerged that the president's handle was vulnerable to sophisticated hackers because it was being secured using a private Gmail account.
[45:40.750 --> 45:42.690]  Not much sophistication there, but still.
[45:43.730 --> 45:45.690]  A lot of convenience more than anything.
[45:45.690 --> 45:48.290]  Yeah, it's the easy way to do it, I suppose.
[45:48.850 --> 46:01.290]  That meant any capable hackers could have potentially hijacked the Twitter account by breaching safeguards used by ordinary citizens, setting out the potential for someone wreaking havoc in the stock markets as well as igniting a national security disaster.
[46:01.950 --> 46:03.070]  And that's Trump's job.
[46:03.210 --> 46:05.510]  That's not something we should be doing ourselves.
[46:05.510 --> 46:14.330]  Now, the vulnerability, as we said, was demonstrated by a hacker days before we demonstrated it ourselves.
[46:14.910 --> 46:32.690]  But as we mentioned, it was basically the reset request would have been sent to a Gmail account that began with DS and had a bunch of stars indicating more letters at gmail.com.
[46:33.570 --> 46:41.630]  And I think they figured out who that belonged to, the actual user of the Gmail account.
[46:41.930 --> 46:44.150]  I'm trying to find the name here in this article.
[46:45.630 --> 46:54.890]  Yes, somebody named Scavino, Dan Scavino, that's Top Social Media Aid is what he's known as.
[46:55.070 --> 47:03.150]  They say it's most likely his account, danscavino at gmail.com, or I guess dscavino to fill out the DS.
[47:03.470 --> 47:10.190]  Now, what they attempted to do, they changed the settings, but they made it even worse at first.
[47:11.170 --> 47:16.990]  Because if you tried to reset Donald Trump's password, in addition to that, you got two more potential clues.
[47:17.330 --> 47:24.950]  You could email a link to that particular account, or you could text a code to my phone ending in 5-4.
[47:25.830 --> 47:30.830]  You could email a link to am, a bunch of stars, at D something.
[47:31.610 --> 47:36.890]  And another one, too, email a link to sc, a bunch of stars, at gmail.com.
[47:36.890 --> 47:42.550]  So, yeah, you know, I think they finally got it right after a while.
[47:42.750 --> 47:46.450]  But, boy, the hoops they jumped through just to set up a Twitter account.
[47:46.750 --> 47:48.490]  And it is just a Twitter account.
[47:49.670 --> 47:52.970]  Talking of Twitter accounts, I have a slightly related thing in front of me.
[47:53.350 --> 47:56.670]  I have a tweet by Governor Mike Pence from December 8, 2015.
[47:57.030 --> 47:59.630]  This was on Governor Pence's, when he was governor of Indiana.
[47:59.830 --> 48:05.110]  This is on the Twitter account, GovPenceIn, which was his official account when he was a governor.
[48:05.110 --> 48:10.510]  And on December 8, 2015, at 10.30 a.m., he tweeted, Calls to ban Muslims from entering the U.S.
[48:10.510 --> 48:11.850]  are offensive and unconstitutional.
[48:12.510 --> 48:15.530]  This tweet has been making the rounds lately and being retweeted and favorited a lot.
[48:15.630 --> 48:20.910]  And usually when this happens, the tweet ends up quietly deleted from the original spot.
[48:20.950 --> 48:23.950]  And so everyone's retweets and such get deleted, unless they screen grabbed it.
[48:24.030 --> 48:25.030]  But this one hasn't.
[48:25.130 --> 48:31.050]  And I'm wondering if maybe no one has access to the account anymore because the governorship has ended and it's all an archive now.
[48:31.050 --> 48:35.870]  Maybe, but think about the reaction that it would get if he did delete it at this point.
[48:36.070 --> 48:38.630]  You know, he can't quietly delete that.
[48:38.990 --> 48:43.690]  Yeah, not after 225,000 retweets, 166,000 favorites.
[48:43.970 --> 48:52.890]  But what was deleted from WhiteHouse.gov was reference to the judicial branch of government under the heading, Our Government.
[48:52.890 --> 48:54.210]  It's been put back.
[48:54.430 --> 49:01.410]  But people were wondering, why on earth, when Donald Trump was inaugurated, did that disappear?
[49:02.630 --> 49:08.230]  Now, Trump also removed pages about Obama's action plans for climate change, health care, civil rights.
[49:08.810 --> 49:10.310]  And, you know, I guess that makes sense.
[49:10.430 --> 49:12.670]  Trump clearly has different policies on those issues.
[49:12.670 --> 49:17.530]  But people couldn't quite figure out what he had in for the judicial branch.
[49:18.210 --> 49:27.850]  Considering the executive branch seems to be defying a court-ordered injunction of Trump's immigration ban in the brewing constitutional crisis, the absence feels rather sinister.
[49:29.370 --> 49:32.330]  And, as I mentioned, it has been put back up.
[49:32.410 --> 49:50.670]  But, you know, I think this points out the importance of checking these websites, monitoring them, comparing them, supporting organizations like archive.org that find these things, find the changes that have taken place, and preserve the history, so that you might be able to pull a stunt like this,
[49:50.710 --> 49:52.810]  but you won't get away with it, and we will find out about it.
[49:53.250 --> 49:55.950]  I think that's something that is our duty.
[49:55.970 --> 49:57.010]  That's something we have to do.
[49:57.190 --> 49:58.210]  We do not forget.
[49:58.470 --> 49:58.690]  No.
[49:58.870 --> 49:59.550]  Expect us.
[49:59.770 --> 50:00.710]  We won't forgive.
[50:01.130 --> 50:01.830]  Absolutely not.
[50:02.430 --> 50:05.150]  Hey, we have a new Twitter account.
[50:05.150 --> 50:10.250]  Speaking of Twitter, Voltaire is here to debut it or tell us about it.
[50:10.830 --> 50:15.230]  We couldn't get off the hook because we arrived at this party about 10 years too late.
[50:15.790 --> 50:19.170]  But I guess why not have the next best thing?
[50:19.930 --> 50:20.510]  That's right.
[50:20.670 --> 50:23.170]  It's at Hacker Radio Show.
[50:23.390 --> 50:24.270]  Hacker Radio Show.
[50:24.350 --> 50:24.970]  That's our Twitter name.
[50:25.070 --> 50:25.190]  Yep.
[50:25.530 --> 50:25.770]  Okay.
[50:25.990 --> 50:26.310]  All right.
[50:27.050 --> 50:28.910]  We have no followers yet, I don't think.
[50:28.950 --> 50:30.310]  No, we have...
[50:30.310 --> 50:31.850]  How do we have followers when we haven't told anybody?
[50:32.270 --> 50:33.130]  We have...
[50:33.130 --> 50:33.430]  Sorry.
[50:34.930 --> 50:36.270]  I spilled the beans before the show.
[50:36.270 --> 50:37.390]  You spilled the beans on this?
[50:37.510 --> 50:37.730]  Wow.
[50:38.030 --> 50:40.170]  We have three followers.
[50:40.630 --> 50:41.430]  Three followers.
[50:41.430 --> 50:41.690]  Okay.
[50:41.770 --> 50:47.790]  Well, you could be number four by logging into Twitter and following Hacker Radio Show.
[50:48.010 --> 50:48.790]  We have four.
[50:49.230 --> 50:50.170]  That was fast.
[50:50.210 --> 50:51.610]  Our friend, John Huntington.
[50:51.970 --> 50:52.290]  Okay.
[50:52.550 --> 50:54.410]  Well, fast fingers there, John.
[50:54.590 --> 50:54.750]  Okay.
[50:55.130 --> 50:56.450]  That's pretty amazing.
[50:56.630 --> 50:58.610]  And what shall we use this Twitter account for?
[50:58.810 --> 51:00.650]  I mean, you know, I don't do radio on Twitter.
[51:00.910 --> 51:05.770]  Well, right now we have a poll up about our favorite version of the 1984 soundtrack.
[51:06.230 --> 51:06.410]  Wait.
[51:06.470 --> 51:07.570]  We just have a poll up?
[51:07.910 --> 51:08.870]  When did that happen?
[51:09.570 --> 51:10.950]  It's actually about to happen.
[51:11.250 --> 51:11.470]  Okay.
[51:11.870 --> 51:12.750]  It's not happened yet.
[51:13.990 --> 51:19.670]  My personal view is the Arrhythmics version of the soundtrack was way better, but that's up to our readers and listeners.
[51:19.710 --> 51:20.250]  So, no, wait.
[51:20.390 --> 51:21.830]  We have four followers.
[51:21.830 --> 51:24.590]  If we put a poll up, does that mean only four people can vote?
[51:24.750 --> 51:27.570]  Or will people that don't follow us, can they vote?
[51:27.710 --> 51:30.650]  Or will people follow us in the future, will they see the poll and be able to vote then?
[51:30.790 --> 51:33.730]  Anybody that sees a tweet and is logged into Twitter can vote.
[51:34.330 --> 51:34.550]  So, yeah.
[51:34.910 --> 51:36.970]  Vote early vote option for Arrhythmics.
[51:36.970 --> 51:41.630]  Yeah, and retweet or whatever and let us know.
[51:42.130 --> 51:43.230]  Hacker Radio Show.
[51:43.390 --> 51:43.610]  Okay.
[51:43.730 --> 51:44.490]  Well, this will be fun.
[51:45.250 --> 51:50.130]  Another fun thing happening this week, 2,600 meetings, but a big change.
[51:50.310 --> 51:50.750]  Yes, indeed.
[51:50.950 --> 51:53.850]  Because the Citigroup building is being demolished.
[51:53.990 --> 51:54.190]  Well, no.
[51:54.290 --> 51:54.430]  Okay.
[51:54.530 --> 51:55.630]  Maybe I'm exaggerating a little bit.
[51:55.750 --> 51:56.930]  It's not being demolished.
[51:57.030 --> 51:57.550]  It's being...
[51:57.550 --> 51:58.350]  What's that other word?
[51:58.450 --> 51:58.870]  Revamped.
[51:58.990 --> 51:59.410]  Revamped.
[51:59.410 --> 51:59.710]  Yes.
[52:00.750 --> 52:03.910]  And they requested us to leave.
[52:04.530 --> 52:07.750]  Well, they requested everybody who uses the atrium to leave.
[52:07.930 --> 52:16.490]  But fortunately, fortunately for us and for all the hackers, there is another atrium a mere half block away that we weren't even aware of.
[52:16.550 --> 52:17.870]  That's a really dynamite site.
[52:18.610 --> 52:25.410]  It's on the corner of the same street that Citigroup is on, 53rd Street and 3rd Avenue.
[52:25.650 --> 52:27.190]  It's kind of catty corner.
[52:27.390 --> 52:29.010]  And it's actually called the atrium.
[52:29.230 --> 52:31.830]  And our meetings will now take place there on the lower level.
[52:32.070 --> 52:32.330]  Yeah.
[52:32.390 --> 52:35.290]  It's the atrium at 875, which is the address of the building.
[52:35.650 --> 52:41.790]  And the same subway station, the Lexington Avenue subway station, has an entrance right in the building's lobby.
[52:41.790 --> 52:42.870]  You don't even have to go outside.
[52:43.050 --> 52:43.950]  You don't have to go outside.
[52:44.270 --> 52:45.630]  You can go directly from the subway into the meeting.
[52:45.750 --> 52:47.410]  This will go over well with our regulars, I think.
[52:47.410 --> 52:47.550]  Uh-huh.
[52:47.610 --> 52:51.250]  It's the next best thing to having a meeting on a subway, which I've been pushing for for years.
[52:51.450 --> 52:52.990]  But one day we'll get there.
[52:53.090 --> 52:55.270]  Is there any precedent for this in New York?
[52:55.690 --> 52:57.030]  Precedent for us moving the meeting?
[52:57.170 --> 52:57.290]  Yeah.
[52:57.430 --> 52:57.570]  No.
[52:57.730 --> 52:58.230]  We've always said...
[52:58.230 --> 53:00.710]  The meetings began in 1987 in that very building.
[53:00.910 --> 53:02.670]  That building has gone through three different names.
[53:02.770 --> 53:05.770]  It was the City Corps building, or City Corps Center, then Citigroup.
[53:06.050 --> 53:12.590]  And then I think they just named it the address of the place, which actually is two addresses, one on Lexington Avenue and one on 53rd Street.
[53:12.710 --> 53:17.110]  And I don't know what the actual name was, but they keep changing it.
[53:17.110 --> 53:21.470]  It'll probably be something else, and that'll be a whole brand new space when they finish in two years.
[53:21.650 --> 53:26.390]  I looked at some of the actual design, and what they're going to do is kind of cool.
[53:26.510 --> 53:33.810]  I'm not saying it's not going to be irreparably changed forever and not the same, and thus a disappointment.
[53:33.810 --> 53:44.890]  However, one entire side will be like these shallow stairs and like a sitting area, and they're going to just do a lot of opening it up, basically.
[53:45.170 --> 53:53.490]  But the place where the meeting is, it does not look like it's going to be removed and replaced with something that's exclusive.
[53:53.690 --> 53:56.170]  There will be a public space in the same spot.
[53:56.170 --> 54:00.370]  It's just everything around it, and access will be enhanced, so to speak.
[54:00.370 --> 54:06.490]  Do you think it's a coincidence that as soon as Trump became president, we got kicked out of Citigroup?
[54:07.470 --> 54:07.910]  Possibly.
[54:08.050 --> 54:10.530]  Yeah, it's just something, you know, conspiracy theories and all.
[54:10.730 --> 54:13.070]  You have to wonder if there's some kind of relationship.
[54:13.230 --> 54:13.530]  Yes, Bernie?
[54:14.550 --> 54:21.550]  I, our friend Dalsini and I checked out Trump Tower's atrium as a potential 2,600 meeting site.
[54:21.770 --> 54:24.350]  Okay, we only have seven minutes left in the show.
[54:24.470 --> 54:26.530]  I don't have enough time to go into the reasons why that's a bad idea.
[54:26.530 --> 54:27.950]  Why would you even consider it?
[54:28.170 --> 54:34.650]  Yeah, you know, we walked by that building a couple of times, and you can't even get near it without going through all kinds of search mechanisms.
[54:34.650 --> 54:35.350]  It's horrible.
[54:35.350 --> 54:38.790]  Well, we got in, and unfortunately, it's just not big enough.
[54:38.910 --> 54:41.290]  Well, I think we'd max it out.
[54:41.730 --> 54:44.070]  Are you trying to get to Trump saying it's not big enough?
[54:45.230 --> 54:46.130]  Yes, exactly.
[54:46.130 --> 54:46.950]  Oh, my God.
[54:46.990 --> 54:49.330]  Okay, well, we're going to get tweeted at for sure for that.
[54:49.790 --> 54:52.190]  But no, we did look at everything around there.
[54:52.190 --> 55:00.230]  In fact, the whole Trump shenanigans wound up closing off another possible location because it was too close to that, and it was behind a police barricade.
[55:00.310 --> 55:04.690]  And we're not going to subject our attendees to going through a police search every time they want to go to a meeting.
[55:05.350 --> 55:11.850]  The place we checked out, though, it was kind of cool because the lower level really wasn't in use very much.
[55:11.850 --> 55:13.310]  A lot of chairs, a lot of tables.
[55:13.770 --> 55:21.370]  And, you know, we saw one guy who was basically sweeping the floor, and that guy has no idea what's going to happen.
[55:21.510 --> 55:22.250]  His life will change.
[55:22.250 --> 55:30.930]  It'll become a lot more exciting now because there'll be up to 100 hackers showing up there every month on that very floor, and I guess he'll be doing more sweeping.
[55:31.390 --> 55:34.330]  Do we know if they'll have a Christmas train display up?
[55:34.650 --> 55:41.950]  You know, Citigroup did not have the Christmas train display up this year, so maybe that's a thing of the past, but anything's possible, I suppose.
[55:42.110 --> 55:43.050]  It's been a few years.
[55:43.050 --> 55:46.650]  We'll be there two years, at least, unless we decide it's a better place.
[55:46.790 --> 55:47.550]  Maybe we'll stay there.
[55:47.610 --> 55:47.990]  Who knows?
[55:48.250 --> 55:49.170]  It's certainly cozy.
[55:49.310 --> 55:52.510]  There's amenities, a little bit of things to eat and drink.
[55:52.610 --> 55:53.770]  Yeah, there's an upstairs, too.
[55:53.970 --> 55:56.210]  It's like a regular food court.
[55:56.270 --> 55:57.530]  Pretty standard food court, yeah.
[55:57.990 --> 56:02.290]  Perhaps this whole thing is designed such that Citigroup will...
[56:02.290 --> 56:07.610]  The whole point of it being that they'll return the big lobby of payphones that they used to have there in the 90s.
[56:08.390 --> 56:09.290]  Yeah, dream on, Alex.
[56:09.430 --> 56:11.770]  I don't think that's ever going to happen, but it would be nice.
[56:11.910 --> 56:12.590]  It really would.
[56:12.590 --> 56:13.370]  It really would.
[56:13.670 --> 56:16.910]  Now they'll be replaced by Link NYC kiosks, right?
[56:17.110 --> 56:18.050]  Probably, probably.
[56:18.470 --> 56:25.030]  Rob is back after having hastily put together a tribute to John Hurt, who was stored in 1984.
[56:26.030 --> 56:28.270]  Yes, it was rough, but I got it done in time.
[56:28.430 --> 56:35.970]  This is going to be the end titles of the film 1984, the non-urythmics version, with a bit of extra John Hurt added.
[56:36.390 --> 56:39.170]  All right, hopefully our signal won't get hijacked in the middle of this.
[56:40.130 --> 56:46.710]  Remember, the 2600 meeting is taking place this Friday, not only in New York, but all around the world, except in Israel, they take place on Thursday.
[56:47.530 --> 56:49.410]  And we hope to see you again next week.
[56:49.490 --> 56:51.130]  Programming note, we're on at 9 p.m.
[56:51.370 --> 56:52.610]  next week, for some reason.
[56:53.310 --> 56:56.650]  And it's the beginning of our winter fundraiser.
[56:56.650 --> 56:59.710]  So, all kinds of exciting things happening.
[57:00.050 --> 57:01.210]  It's Emmanuel for Off the Hook.
[57:01.510 --> 57:02.230]  Have a good night.
[57:51.000 --> 57:58.680]  I have committed, even before setting a pen to paper, the essential crime that contains all others in itself.
[58:12.040 --> 58:18.540]  Under the spreading chestnut tree, I sold you, you sold me.
[58:28.080 --> 58:32.740]  It's not so much staying alive, staying human is important.
[58:36.230 --> 58:39.650]  And what counts is that we don't betray each other.
[59:07.110 --> 59:09.730]  Was there ever a time when this seemed ordinary?
[59:20.440 --> 59:22.500]  Is to walk out of here before it's too late.
[59:23.080 --> 59:24.480]  Never see one another again.
[59:34.540 --> 59:35.700]  Not normal, you're innocent.
[59:37.000 --> 59:39.620]  You keep clear of people like me, then you might stay alive.
[59:48.000 --> 59:48.760]  What is it?
[59:49.720 --> 59:50.680]  I don't know.
[59:52.420 --> 59:54.620]  A little chunk of history that they've forgotten to alter.
[59:56.320 --> 59:58.040]  A message from a hundred years ago.
[01:00:08.910 --> 01:00:11.530]  Oranges and lemons say the bells of some clothes.
[01:00:12.430 --> 01:00:15.730]  You owe me three farthings say the bells of St. Martins.
[01:00:16.030 --> 01:00:17.030]  Who taught you that?
[01:00:17.870 --> 01:00:18.750]  What is it?
[01:00:34.040 --> 01:00:36.540]  There is truth and there is untruth.
[01:00:38.500 --> 01:00:41.720]  To be in a minority of one doesn't make you mad.