[00:00.000 --> 00:04.520]  ...operational talks, live music, performances, and ceremony.
[00:04.920 --> 00:08.560]  That's Saturday, April 22nd, from 6.30 p.m.
[00:08.700 --> 00:10.060]  sharp to 10 p.m.
[00:10.180 --> 00:18.380]  at the Church of St. Paul and St. Andrew, 263 West 86th Street at the corner of West End Avenue.
[00:18.700 --> 00:20.760]  Doors open at 6 p.m.
[00:20.980 --> 00:29.900]  For details and information, go to planetheart.org or call 212-222-5432.
[00:33.610 --> 00:41.350]  And you are listening to radio station WBAI in New York, where the time is just about 8 o'clock on a Wednesday.
[00:41.870 --> 00:44.850]  And that means it's time once again for Off the Hook.
[01:09.700 --> 01:12.260]  I hope that's understood, Monday night, no!
[02:30.110 --> 02:32.710]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:32.710 --> 02:34.770]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:34.910 --> 02:36.310]  Emmanuel Goldstein joining you tonight.
[02:37.150 --> 02:38.270]  Joined by Rob T.
[02:38.410 --> 02:38.810]  Firefly.
[02:39.210 --> 02:39.710]  Good evening.
[02:40.050 --> 02:40.350]  Kyle.
[02:40.750 --> 02:41.410]  I'm here, hi.
[02:41.850 --> 02:44.350]  Our resident legal expert, Alex, will be joining us tonight.
[02:46.470 --> 02:47.950]  And hopefully getting out of that mode.
[02:48.490 --> 02:51.670]  Sorry, I thought we were broadcasting the original Russian tonight.
[02:51.930 --> 02:53.950]  Trump is not in the audience, so don't worry about that.
[02:53.950 --> 02:54.550]  Good evening, friend.
[02:54.550 --> 02:56.730]  And from somewhere in the world, Bernie S.
[02:59.030 --> 02:59.770]  Bernie S.
[03:00.050 --> 03:00.950]  He's not with us.
[03:02.050 --> 03:03.030]  You can see him.
[03:03.450 --> 03:03.610]  Oh, hello.
[03:04.790 --> 03:06.810]  It would be helpful if I had my mute button turned off.
[03:06.890 --> 03:07.190]  Yes, yes.
[03:07.450 --> 03:09.550]  Greetings from northeastern Pennsylvania.
[03:10.470 --> 03:11.430]  Okay, good, good.
[03:11.530 --> 03:12.130]  Northeastern Pennsylvania.
[03:12.230 --> 03:12.790]  I know where that is.
[03:13.470 --> 03:19.470]  And we are back for another action-packed edition of Off the Hook, talking about technological issues, of which there are many.
[03:20.150 --> 03:24.470]  All sorts of social events taking place in the hacker world.
[03:24.590 --> 03:26.950]  We'll be going through quite a bit of that.
[03:27.250 --> 03:32.170]  I do have to say, we're going to be releasing the spring issue within the next week.
[03:34.770 --> 03:39.390]  And there's been kind of a combination of reactions from people that have seen it so far.
[03:39.490 --> 03:40.350]  I don't want to get into details.
[03:40.490 --> 03:41.770]  We really can't get into details.
[03:43.950 --> 03:51.910]  But if you have a heart condition, it's probably best not to look at it without preparing yourself for it.
[03:52.810 --> 03:54.550]  Because it's going to be something else.
[03:54.890 --> 03:55.550]  It kind of...
[03:55.550 --> 03:58.170]  I'm very proud of what people have put together here.
[03:59.490 --> 03:59.890]  It's...
[04:00.490 --> 04:01.570]  I don't want to say anymore.
[04:01.670 --> 04:04.550]  Just in a week, it's going to be a little bit different around here.
[04:05.230 --> 04:06.870]  I guess that's probably the best way to say it.
[04:07.410 --> 04:08.350]  Well, I'm excited.
[04:08.590 --> 04:09.630]  Yeah, we should be.
[04:09.710 --> 04:10.290]  We should be excited.
[04:12.410 --> 04:16.670]  You can do a lot with words and with information.
[04:16.670 --> 04:20.150]  And that's something the hacker community has known about for a long time.
[04:20.730 --> 04:24.710]  But regardless, we're talking about other things tonight.
[04:25.750 --> 04:36.550]  And I guess first and foremost, regarding the show, regarding Off the Hook, we want to thank everybody who pledged during the last fun drive, the winter fun drive.
[04:37.350 --> 04:39.890]  And it's going to be a while before the spring fun drive begins.
[04:40.030 --> 04:40.910]  So don't worry about that.
[04:41.890 --> 04:42.530]  Good news.
[04:42.690 --> 04:50.030]  We have, I believe, dealt with all the previous premium issues from previous fun drives.
[04:50.270 --> 04:51.350]  Rob, you have an update on that, right?
[04:51.790 --> 04:52.410]  Yes, indeed.
[04:52.410 --> 04:58.530]  Everyone who is waiting on the USB drives from fundraisers past.
[04:58.710 --> 05:01.670]  Not the most recent one, because we still have to send those out.
[05:01.750 --> 05:08.690]  But from fundraisers past, if you were waiting for one of the older USB drives, they should all have been mailed out and sent out.
[05:08.810 --> 05:09.850]  Except for that one guy.
[05:10.010 --> 05:10.790]  Apart from one.
[05:11.170 --> 05:11.690]  Because it's...
[05:11.690 --> 05:14.210]  It's being sent to the UK and...
[05:14.210 --> 05:15.150]  What do you think you are?
[05:15.870 --> 05:18.090]  And so it takes a little more oomph, but...
[05:18.590 --> 05:20.830]  The system here couldn't handle that or something.
[05:20.990 --> 05:21.170]  Yeah.
[05:21.370 --> 05:22.790]  They couldn't handle mailing to the United Kingdom.
[05:22.990 --> 05:25.370]  So our general manager is actually going to the post office himself.
[05:25.710 --> 05:28.930]  Yeah, I think the system was confused by Brexit, or maybe it's just upset.
[05:29.050 --> 05:29.850]  You think...
[05:29.850 --> 05:30.990]  Yeah, it's just the beginning, folks.
[05:31.110 --> 05:31.650]  Get used to it.
[05:31.930 --> 05:33.790]  But yeah, so we're sorry about that.
[05:33.930 --> 05:38.670]  But that should be it as far as the things that have been in backlog mode.
[05:38.670 --> 05:46.230]  And as far as what we've just done for the Winter Fund Drive, we had your paintings for the first week.
[05:46.350 --> 05:47.970]  Those should all have been delivered.
[05:47.970 --> 05:52.250]  So if you pledge for one of those, and paid, you should have that already.
[05:52.250 --> 05:56.070]  It should be, in fact, framed and hanging proudly in your home or office.
[05:56.270 --> 06:05.350]  We've heard from a number of people who've received them and been just really excited and blown away by the artistry.
[06:05.770 --> 06:05.950]  Yeah.
[06:06.050 --> 06:07.890]  So thank you for that again, Rob.
[06:08.670 --> 06:10.490]  It's an exciting thank you gift.
[06:10.710 --> 06:16.130]  And really, the station is better for that contribution you've made.
[06:16.130 --> 06:16.490]  Absolutely.
[06:16.670 --> 06:17.450]  That makes me very happy.
[06:17.530 --> 06:24.950]  And of course, if you've got one of these, whether it's the most recent set of paintings or one of my older sets, because I've done that a few times on this program, we'd love to see a picture.
[06:25.030 --> 06:32.570]  If you've got it displayed somewhere, if you'd like to share that with us, send it, email it on up to soth at 2600.com.
[06:32.570 --> 06:40.810]  And these paintings that you made are of all different kinds of phones, and you found a whole lot of different kinds, which are pretty amazing.
[06:41.970 --> 06:43.530]  So whatever you have, it's unique.
[06:43.730 --> 06:44.430]  No one else has that.
[06:44.530 --> 06:45.670]  All with interesting stories.
[06:45.670 --> 06:58.230]  And many people recognize these phones from maybe growing up, or the cultural artifacts like movies and TV shows that may have featured them.
[06:58.370 --> 07:01.130]  But it's, suffice to say, really, really a cool project.
[07:01.130 --> 07:03.430]  We have one hanging in the 2600 facility.
[07:03.470 --> 07:03.810]  We do.
[07:04.070 --> 07:16.190]  And Kyle set it up so that it looks like a museum, where basically you have the painting hanging up, and then you have a little rectangular blurb about it, tastefully distanced away from it, below it.
[07:16.450 --> 07:16.710]  Right.
[07:16.850 --> 07:16.930]  Yeah.
[07:17.030 --> 07:20.650]  Rob included a little synopsis of what it is about.
[07:20.890 --> 07:31.670]  And so we stapled that, or fixed it right next to where the actual portrait or canvas painting itself is.
[07:31.890 --> 07:33.750]  And I think ours was...
[07:34.570 --> 07:38.370]  The one that we have is from the Doctor Who series.
[07:38.510 --> 07:41.710]  It's based on the TARDIS itself, I think?
[07:41.830 --> 07:42.590]  Or a police box?
[07:42.670 --> 07:45.270]  Not the actual TARDIS, but the original police box, which was the type of...
[07:45.290 --> 07:47.910]  A phone booth that used to be a regular site around England.
[07:48.330 --> 07:52.750]  And when Doctor Who came along, they used this common site as the shape of their main character's time machine.
[07:53.070 --> 07:54.690]  But these phone booths did serve a purpose.
[07:54.850 --> 07:56.290]  They were metropolitan police boxes.
[07:56.790 --> 08:07.770]  And they were basically phone booth shaped, but they had a telephone in them with which you could contact the police, with which cops on the beat could contact their base and get orders and stuff.
[08:07.890 --> 08:11.270]  This was before police had easy access to portable radios.
[08:11.510 --> 08:14.210]  So this was a way for everyone to keep in touch in those days.
[08:14.210 --> 08:19.830]  Not unlike fireboxes you'd see in New York, which are still in existence, but police boxes, fireboxes, they're common.
[08:20.190 --> 08:20.650]  Yeah, I'm sorry.
[08:20.650 --> 08:21.370]  I said it backwards.
[08:21.610 --> 08:33.470]  It was the utility of it as a police tool that then had it become adapted in the series as part of this fictional vehicle.
[08:33.810 --> 08:36.370]  I'm interested in alternative phone networks.
[08:36.550 --> 08:39.170]  Like, that's kind of an alternative phone network, the police box, the firebox.
[08:39.170 --> 08:41.470]  But there's also the train phone box.
[08:41.610 --> 08:46.290]  You ever go to a train station, you see this really ancient phone just sort of hanging out on the tracks.
[08:46.430 --> 08:52.210]  And that's what train men would use to communicate with a different station or the master controller or whatever.
[08:52.550 --> 08:54.610]  And, you know, they weren't dialing numbers.
[08:54.730 --> 08:57.150]  They were picking up and or they might have been dialing numbers within their network.
[08:57.310 --> 09:00.570]  But sometimes it's just a hotline directly to a particular place.
[09:01.270 --> 09:02.430]  Yeah, it's good stuff.
[09:02.430 --> 09:13.730]  And if you'd like to see any of these phones, if you didn't get to get one, you can see them on my art blog, which is robtfirefly.tumblr.com or on my site, robvincent.net.
[09:13.850 --> 09:18.010]  And I haven't put the latest batch up yet, including the one you've got.
[09:18.010 --> 09:19.910]  I have to post those photos probably this weekend.
[09:20.050 --> 09:21.850]  But we still haven't gotten through the announcement we wanted to make.
[09:21.970 --> 09:24.510]  Okay, so yeah, everything has been sent out as far as that goes.
[09:24.510 --> 09:39.530]  But we had two other weeks of the recently concluded winter fun drive, one where we had a flash drive of Hope 11 talks that people pledged for, and one where Kevin Mitnick was in the studio and we had his new book, autograph book.
[09:39.810 --> 09:41.190]  And those are ready to go out.
[09:41.210 --> 09:46.150]  But we need to make sure that people have fulfilled their pledges.
[09:46.330 --> 09:58.010]  So what we are going to do next week, one week from today, we are going to get the list of names and addresses of people who have pledged and paid, and we are going to send them out ourselves.
[09:58.010 --> 10:00.090]  That way, you're guaranteed there won't be any delays.
[10:00.730 --> 10:06.910]  But if you haven't paid yet, you better hurry up and pay because your name won't be on that list when we ask for it next week if you don't.
[10:07.070 --> 10:23.090]  So hopefully this is an unnecessary announcement and people have already paid because we want to get that taken care of so that we have nothing left and that the next fun drive when it comes up in May, we can start on a completely fresh slate and do amazingly well.
[10:24.250 --> 10:25.130]  And that would be awesome.
[10:25.170 --> 10:33.270]  Of course, if you are by some mishap still waiting for one of the older premiums, get in touch with us, OTH at 2600.com and tell us what you're waiting for.
[10:33.390 --> 10:33.510]  Yeah.
[10:33.610 --> 10:39.870]  And please, if it's 10 years ago, there's only so much we can do, but hopefully it's more recent than that.
[10:40.930 --> 10:41.210]  All right.
[10:41.330 --> 10:54.590]  Speaking of England, Bernie, I know you forwarded us this story, which I thought was kind of interesting about, the new $1 coins in the UK that have a hidden security feature to make it difficult to counterfeit.
[10:54.710 --> 10:56.730]  How many people out there counterfeit coins?
[10:57.010 --> 10:57.850]  Is that a thing?
[10:58.710 --> 10:59.750]  Apparently, this is...
[10:59.750 --> 11:02.830]  I didn't realize it, but apparently this is a big deal in the UK.
[11:02.970 --> 11:03.150]  Wow.
[11:03.450 --> 11:05.170]  Counterfeit one pound coins.
[11:05.790 --> 11:06.310]  I mean...
[11:06.310 --> 11:07.910]  What's a pound worth about now?
[11:08.770 --> 11:10.190]  A little over a dollar.
[11:10.370 --> 11:11.230]  Well, it depends.
[11:11.250 --> 11:13.590]  With Brexit and all, it's going down fast.
[11:13.590 --> 11:16.710]  I think it's about $1.20, $1.30.
[11:16.830 --> 11:17.430]  It used to be $2.
[11:17.590 --> 11:18.650]  That's what I would have guessed.
[11:18.890 --> 11:19.030]  Yeah.
[11:19.950 --> 11:23.870]  Apparently, this is a big deal, counterfeit pound coins.
[11:23.970 --> 11:25.610]  You'd think it'd be easier to...
[11:25.610 --> 11:31.510]  Maybe they don't even have one pound notes anymore, but apparently, you know, counterfeiters have found an easy way to stamp these things out.
[11:31.710 --> 11:35.470]  And now the new one has got, like, multi-sided.
[11:35.650 --> 11:36.970]  What is it, like 11 sides or something?
[11:36.970 --> 11:49.870]  And it has a lot of anti-counterfeiting features, including one rumored feature, which allows it to be detected as legitimate or not from... without even touching it.
[11:49.930 --> 11:50.590]  It's like some...
[11:50.590 --> 11:53.510]  I don't know if it's actually RFID or something like that.
[11:53.710 --> 11:54.450]  Some kind of...
[11:54.450 --> 12:03.210]  If it's RFID, I really wonder if these one pound coins have individual addresses, which would make it really interesting from a money tracking standpoint.
[12:03.210 --> 12:12.730]  But that's absolutely the kind of thing that IPv6 and these new technologies would allow because there's so many addresses.
[12:13.270 --> 12:16.330]  IPs for every single pound coin out there?
[12:16.410 --> 12:17.790]  Is that what we're suggesting here?
[12:18.010 --> 12:18.290]  Sure.
[12:18.670 --> 12:19.150]  Wow.
[12:19.150 --> 12:20.630]  I mean, that's one use, yeah.
[12:20.770 --> 12:26.730]  And they all have little websites and they tell, I've been over here, like, where's George, except with every single...
[12:26.730 --> 12:28.910]  Wow, okay, that's the world we're moving into.
[12:28.910 --> 12:32.850]  I guess with unlimited amounts of IP addresses, we could do things like that.
[12:32.990 --> 12:34.870]  But I kind of doubt that's what's happening here.
[12:35.330 --> 12:38.130]  Well, I don't think these are IP addresses embedded in a coin.
[12:38.310 --> 12:38.510]  No, no.
[12:38.510 --> 12:42.630]  But there may be, you know, some sort of unique identifier in each coin.
[12:42.990 --> 12:43.790]  It's still kind of fuzzy.
[12:43.930 --> 12:44.490]  People haven't...
[12:44.490 --> 12:46.270]  They just came out like yesterday, these coins.
[12:46.370 --> 12:48.770]  And people are trying to determine what the...
[12:49.370 --> 12:54.430]  What's been reported in the mainstream media in the UK is that these coins can be...
[12:54.430 --> 12:57.710]  Their authenticity can be detected from afar.
[12:57.710 --> 13:08.990]  And by afar, I mean, like, maybe a few inches away, as opposed to, you know, like, physically touching it or looking at it with a magnifying glass.
[13:09.170 --> 13:10.270]  So I'm really interested.
[13:10.390 --> 13:16.370]  I'm sure we'll know by next week's show what the electronic innards are on these coins, if any.
[13:16.650 --> 13:18.810]  Yeah, maybe a listener could send us one of these, too.
[13:19.030 --> 13:21.770]  That would be awesome, especially if a lot of listeners sent them to us.
[13:22.510 --> 13:30.710]  But for those who have never come in contact with a pound coin, I imagine a lot of people who haven't traveled might not have seen one.
[13:30.870 --> 13:33.250]  They're unlike anything that we have in this country.
[13:33.330 --> 13:34.190]  I'm talking about the old ones.
[13:34.290 --> 13:35.010]  They're thick.
[13:35.950 --> 13:38.630]  When you drop them, they don't really sound like coins.
[13:38.630 --> 13:39.590]  They sound like stones.
[13:40.010 --> 13:42.590]  They just have this feeling of value to them.
[13:42.590 --> 13:46.370]  And these new ones have, as Bernie mentioned, multi-size.
[13:46.490 --> 13:48.130]  I believe 12 sides is what they have.
[13:48.290 --> 13:56.550]  What that means is along the rim, basically, it's kind of like a pentagon thing, except a lot more than that.
[13:56.890 --> 13:58.170]  It's not round.
[13:58.170 --> 13:58.970]  It's not circular.
[13:59.750 --> 14:00.790]  So there's that.
[14:01.870 --> 14:03.750]  And I haven't seen these new ones yet.
[14:03.750 --> 14:04.670]  I haven't actually held one.
[14:04.790 --> 14:06.050]  I'd like to see what they're actually like.
[14:06.050 --> 14:13.190]  But they definitely have more of a value sense to them than coins that we're used to in this country.
[14:13.230 --> 14:17.910]  And that's including dollar coins that we never seem to be able to get right.
[14:19.170 --> 14:19.690]  Yeah.
[14:19.810 --> 14:27.530]  As somebody who just recently moved back from England last year, I can attest, Bernie, there are no such things as one-pound notes anymore.
[14:28.470 --> 14:31.630]  The one-pound coin is really commonly used.
[14:31.790 --> 14:35.290]  And as Emmanuel noted, it does have a certain heft in your hand.
[14:35.290 --> 14:37.450]  And that's certainly how you would determine.
[14:37.550 --> 14:43.030]  You can put your hand in your pocket and figure out how many pound coins you have very, very easily, as opposed to something like quarters.
[14:43.170 --> 14:50.490]  So I wonder if this new currency is going to maintain that sort of heft that was characteristic of these one-pound coins.
[14:50.490 --> 14:52.410]  They certainly did carry a lot of value.
[14:52.530 --> 14:54.470]  This is a big innovation for them.
[14:54.630 --> 14:58.570]  And if you're ever being mugged in an alley, you can use these as weapons.
[14:58.890 --> 14:59.770]  No, they're heavy.
[14:59.910 --> 15:02.330]  So if you throw them at your attacker, it will hurt.
[15:02.430 --> 15:03.330]  They'll get what they want.
[15:03.330 --> 15:03.970]  They'll get the money.
[15:03.970 --> 15:09.370]  I mean, everybody wins, I guess, because you're protecting yourself and they're getting what they're requesting.
[15:09.710 --> 15:11.190]  But try that with a quarter.
[15:11.370 --> 15:12.070]  It's not going to work.
[15:12.270 --> 15:12.830]  Certainly not.
[15:12.910 --> 15:13.010]  Yeah.
[15:13.150 --> 15:14.690]  I wish we had a nice thick coin, though.
[15:15.610 --> 15:20.950]  But this whole RFID possibility and security features...
[15:20.950 --> 15:22.710]  It's got multiple security features, too.
[15:22.910 --> 15:27.450]  Not just the near-field communication design.
[15:27.710 --> 15:31.550]  Like, there's other, I think, holographic etching and all kinds of other things.
[15:31.550 --> 15:33.370]  Well, they say it's a hidden security feature.
[15:33.530 --> 15:33.790]  Yes.
[15:33.910 --> 15:35.650]  A lot of stuff they're not talking about.
[15:35.710 --> 15:42.050]  If it's hidden and people don't know about it, then how do people know when they've been given a counterfeit coin?
[15:42.390 --> 15:44.630]  You kind of have to share the information, right?
[15:44.750 --> 15:46.090]  Otherwise, what good is it going to do you?
[15:48.090 --> 15:48.830]  That's a good point.
[15:48.950 --> 15:49.050]  What?
[15:49.050 --> 15:49.770]  Nobody thought of this?
[15:50.010 --> 15:50.170]  No.
[15:50.590 --> 15:51.990]  No, I think you're the first one.
[15:52.510 --> 15:52.910]  Absolutely.
[15:53.090 --> 15:56.170]  Well, here's something else to bounce off, people.
[15:56.390 --> 16:00.750]  As of October 15th, the old pound coins are going to be worthless.
[16:00.890 --> 16:04.910]  Well, not worthless, but shops will be under no obligation to take them.
[16:05.110 --> 16:05.610]  How about that?
[16:05.730 --> 16:06.590]  Imagine if they did that here.
[16:06.710 --> 16:07.930]  Imagine if they just said, you know what?
[16:08.650 --> 16:11.870]  Any dime before 1964, we're not taking anymore.
[16:13.170 --> 16:14.350]  People, it would be panicked.
[16:14.650 --> 16:15.330]  Mass panic.
[16:15.550 --> 16:16.110]  That's crazy.
[16:16.230 --> 16:17.470]  I think there's going to be a backlash.
[16:17.730 --> 16:18.550]  There may be riots.
[16:18.550 --> 16:24.130]  Well, after that day, you can still go to the bank and redeem it there.
[16:25.290 --> 16:28.650]  But yeah, so these are going to be lighter than the old coin.
[16:28.790 --> 16:30.770]  They're going to be 8.75 grams.
[16:30.990 --> 16:33.170]  They're going to be thinner than the old coin, 2.8 millimeters.
[16:34.250 --> 16:37.930]  They're going to be larger than the old coin, 23.43 millimeters.
[16:38.610 --> 16:44.750]  And there's going to be about 23 per person entered into circulation, 1.5 billion in total.
[16:44.750 --> 16:49.730]  And old one-pound coins will be melted down to make new ones.
[16:50.210 --> 16:50.590]  Yeah.
[16:50.870 --> 16:52.810]  So it's really a passing of the torch here.
[16:54.030 --> 17:00.890]  And if you want to preserve your one-pound coins, again, send those to us and we'll give them a happy home here and they will never be melted down.
[17:01.670 --> 17:03.110]  But okay, so that's interesting.
[17:03.370 --> 17:04.950]  Well, I think they're getting it all wrong here.
[17:05.070 --> 17:21.570]  And I think that the reason why we've never really had, I think, a workable $1 type coin, so you think about what they did in England, which is the one-pound coin isn't necessarily proportional in size to the value because the one-pound coin is smaller than a 10p.
[17:21.870 --> 17:24.370]  It's larger than a 5p, but it's smaller than a 10p.
[17:24.490 --> 17:26.670]  You're talking about pence when you say 10p.
[17:26.790 --> 17:27.050]  That's right.
[17:27.070 --> 17:27.810]  I just want to make sure people know that.
[17:27.890 --> 17:28.450]  That's right, yeah.
[17:28.770 --> 17:35.930]  So the 10p is larger in circumference, I guess, or diameter, both, than the one-pound coin.
[17:36.090 --> 17:38.850]  So it's this unique thing that's in your pocket.
[17:38.850 --> 17:46.770]  Now they're making it larger and lighter, which totally cuts against the feeling of the pound that you have currently or had currently.
[17:46.770 --> 17:50.090]  So I think they're making a mistake.
[17:50.230 --> 17:55.770]  I think they're going to make the mistake that we made in trying to initiate a $1 currency.
[17:56.110 --> 18:10.670]  Well, one difference to what they're doing to what we tried to do most recently with the golden dollars, which never really went anywhere, is we tried to instigate a new dollar coin that had the same measurements and weight as the previous attempted at a dollar coin,
[18:10.770 --> 18:13.150]  which was the... when were they from?
[18:13.310 --> 18:14.070]  The Susan B.
[18:14.170 --> 18:16.230]  Anthony's from the 1970s.
[18:16.230 --> 18:22.410]  And that was done at the behest of things like the vending machine industry, who didn't want to have to design for a new coin.
[18:22.530 --> 18:24.250]  They could just use the designs they had for the old one.
[18:24.790 --> 18:33.390]  Also, the old dollars were still in circulation, especially if you've ever bought tickets from an MTA vending machine in cash, and you know how many of those you would get back.
[18:34.190 --> 18:37.630]  So it was designing the new coin to the specs of the old one.
[18:38.430 --> 18:43.350]  And so there was no need to devalue the old ones or switch them out or anything, because they were all still valid dollars.
[18:44.530 --> 18:47.430]  And so it's the vending machine.
[18:47.690 --> 18:50.570]  It's always an evil industry that keeps us from making progress.
[18:50.890 --> 18:56.470]  You know, oil industry or the broadcasting industry even.
[18:56.770 --> 18:58.650]  You know, there are all kinds of things we can say about that.
[18:59.150 --> 19:09.210]  But yeah, the vending machine industry, they're the ones preventing us from having a coin that actually is different than a quarter, because the dollar coins look a lot like quarters to many people.
[19:09.210 --> 19:12.010]  Well, when they brought in the Sacagaweas, I was working in the evil industry.
[19:12.130 --> 19:13.470]  I was running an arcade at the time.
[19:14.030 --> 19:16.130]  And so, yeah, we got everything ready.
[19:16.150 --> 19:18.750]  We got everything ready to take the new dollars, and we're all excited.
[19:18.850 --> 19:20.930]  Okay, we're going to start getting... no one freaking used them.
[19:21.290 --> 19:22.010]  Wow, wow.
[19:22.510 --> 19:25.170]  Nobody but the Long Island Railroad giving you change, right?
[19:25.450 --> 19:25.770]  Also...
[19:25.770 --> 19:27.970]  Yeah, transit, I would also add.
[19:28.130 --> 19:30.170]  The half-dollar pieces, you still get those, right?
[19:30.230 --> 19:32.270]  The big JFK ones, those are kind of cool.
[19:32.410 --> 19:34.710]  No one uses them, I know, but you still can get them from those machines.
[19:34.950 --> 19:35.310]  That's right.
[19:35.490 --> 19:37.470]  Oh, occasionally, maybe, yeah, from a machine.
[19:37.470 --> 19:38.390]  What do you got there, Kyle?
[19:38.410 --> 19:40.430]  You got a bunch of $2 bills?
[19:41.290 --> 19:41.650]  Oh, yeah.
[19:41.790 --> 19:42.890]  You collect those, too?
[19:43.230 --> 19:49.370]  Well, to Rob's point, I was going to add that, like, the dollar coin is, as he said, ill-used.
[19:49.530 --> 19:51.270]  But it is still around, and they do reissue...
[19:51.270 --> 19:55.110]  They issue different versions and series continually.
[19:55.570 --> 20:00.150]  It's just the transit change is pretty much the only place where you get it.
[20:00.710 --> 20:03.590]  A lot of businesses don't necessarily...
[20:03.590 --> 20:06.290]  They just want to make a dollar, like, make that with change.
[20:06.290 --> 20:15.630]  They're not necessarily trying to have this alternative to a dollar bill running alongside it, which we already made the distinction in the UK.
[20:15.730 --> 20:21.610]  They sort of headed that off by removing the bills, the pound bill notes.
[20:22.370 --> 20:25.510]  I think we're past the point where we should have a dollar coin.
[20:25.610 --> 20:27.830]  I think it should be, like, in Canada, where there's a $2 coin.
[20:28.070 --> 20:28.850]  They call it the toonies.
[20:28.990 --> 20:29.650]  That would be cool.
[20:29.770 --> 20:33.850]  But wouldn't that threaten your precious $2 bills that you carry with you everywhere?
[20:33.850 --> 20:35.310]  And that is absolutely right.
[20:35.430 --> 20:44.490]  It goes right to the similar role that the $2 bill has where you don't really see it that often, but it is still there.
[20:44.690 --> 20:52.730]  It is sometimes even, I think, printed by one or the other reserve bank every now and then.
[20:52.770 --> 21:02.010]  Not a lot and not all the time, but it is still something that is in circulation and used for all kinds of different reasons.
[21:02.010 --> 21:06.230]  You get all kinds of reactions when you use your $2 bills in various transactions.
[21:06.570 --> 21:10.410]  What's a sampling of the kind of response you might get?
[21:10.890 --> 21:15.530]  Well, it's usually people want to point out that you're using it.
[21:15.710 --> 21:16.790]  I think that's the most...
[21:16.790 --> 21:17.970]  They want to initiate...
[21:17.970 --> 21:18.710]  As if you didn't know.
[21:18.990 --> 21:19.410]  Exactly.
[21:19.630 --> 21:22.310]  Like, you get recognized if you use these kinds of bills.
[21:22.310 --> 21:37.770]  And it's really, if you're being a little bit playful with the denominations because it's an unusual denomination, meaning you had to do something to get that or to be able to consistently use them.
[21:37.890 --> 21:39.110]  You sort of have to ask around.
[21:39.190 --> 21:41.250]  You don't get them from ATMs and so on.
[21:41.350 --> 21:44.630]  So it does sort of open up this conversation.
[21:44.630 --> 21:47.010]  And people usually have all kinds of things to say.
[21:47.130 --> 21:47.650]  They like them.
[21:47.650 --> 21:48.570]  They marvel at them.
[21:49.370 --> 22:01.650]  And it's really kind of an interesting thing to take overseas because it's unique and not a bill that people usually talk about or are aware of that even exists when they're looking into our country from the outside.
[22:01.830 --> 22:02.690]  Can I ask how you get yours?
[22:03.610 --> 22:05.030]  I don't know if I should say.
[22:05.230 --> 22:06.990]  Well, it's not really that hard.
[22:07.430 --> 22:08.390]  I just ask.
[22:08.470 --> 22:13.890]  I go inside banks and usually they cooperate.
[22:14.810 --> 22:16.050]  Are you holding a weapon?
[22:16.050 --> 22:17.950]  I didn't want to talk about this.
[22:18.210 --> 22:18.590]  No, no, no.
[22:18.850 --> 22:20.950]  I go ask for a thousand bucks in two.
[22:21.070 --> 22:21.750]  Let me be clear.
[22:21.750 --> 22:26.690]  I exchange currency for these notes.
[22:26.970 --> 22:28.610]  But yeah, you could just go in anywhere.
[22:28.830 --> 22:39.230]  And usually tellers, if you want to talk denominations with tellers, they'll usually, they will be so accommodating because normally people don't ask for it.
[22:39.370 --> 22:43.190]  It's like getting a ceramic cup at Starbucks.
[22:43.190 --> 22:48.570]  They're not, people like are used to getting their coffee squirted into a paper cup.
[22:48.990 --> 22:50.970]  Like they're not at all.
[22:51.290 --> 22:55.210]  And so they just accept whatever the machine is giving them.
[22:55.290 --> 22:59.710]  But if you ask a teller to do something regarding the denominations, it's very specific.
[22:59.930 --> 23:03.050]  They do it all the time with like merchants, people, small businesses and stuff.
[23:03.250 --> 23:11.930]  So when a sort of average person asks something, it's sort of unique, like for a bunch of dollar coins or, or something like that, it's, it's a unique thing.
[23:12.110 --> 23:17.630]  And again, you get this sort of interesting conversation, but generally most banks will accommodate and figure something out.
[23:17.650 --> 23:18.550]  Yeah, we've never had a conversation like this before.
[23:18.710 --> 23:22.270]  We're talking about money and denominations and, and, and coin collecting and things like that.
[23:22.370 --> 23:23.010]  But it is interesting.
[23:23.130 --> 23:25.110]  It is a security instrument.
[23:25.350 --> 23:25.810]  Absolutely.
[23:25.810 --> 23:28.290]  You notice all sorts of things written on the bills.
[23:28.470 --> 23:31.750]  There are security documents and, and financial instruments.
[23:31.750 --> 23:34.510]  And also, you know, you, you can get things from the past too.
[23:34.630 --> 23:38.830]  You can get, um, um, uh, silver certificates, uh, instead of, uh, bills.
[23:39.370 --> 23:40.510]  They have different printing.
[23:40.770 --> 23:40.890]  Yeah.
[23:40.990 --> 23:41.130]  Yeah.
[23:41.270 --> 23:44.190]  So you might just get one of those, uh, by complete chance.
[23:44.430 --> 23:44.530]  Yeah.
[23:44.530 --> 23:51.430]  You know, speaking of $2 bills, I used to have a bunch of $2 bills, you know, the, the circular thing, I I'm using the wrong terms that that that's green.
[23:51.670 --> 23:52.490]  Mine was red.
[23:52.710 --> 23:54.590]  It was from the 1950s and I lost them.
[23:54.710 --> 23:56.790]  I'm really upset at this, but I used to have a bunch of those.
[23:56.890 --> 23:58.950]  I have a couple, I've recently got a couple of those.
[23:58.950 --> 24:02.310]  Uh, but it's, it's really kind of fascinating.
[24:02.470 --> 24:04.670]  There's a lot of other issues regarding finance.
[24:04.790 --> 24:12.450]  I mean, uh, virtual currencies and paying with your phone has been very, very popular, but we're going to be seeing a reissue of the $20 bill that's coming up.
[24:12.510 --> 24:18.610]  And we've noticed in other countries, a lot of polymer notes, which is a completely different material than the paper notes.
[24:18.610 --> 24:19.770]  Canada has those.
[24:20.030 --> 24:20.250]  Yes.
[24:20.650 --> 24:23.790]  Polymer is, it's, it's, it's just some kind of, uh, how would you describe it?
[24:24.230 --> 24:25.110]  The, the, the, the feel.
[24:25.110 --> 24:44.150]  It feels like a, um, a rose coating, uh, like a, a particular, um, like a velvety, uh, plasticky finish, like a very smooth, um, you know, like some of these like phone USB cables, they have that weird sort of silicone texture.
[24:44.150 --> 24:45.930]  It's very smooth and designer.
[24:46.130 --> 24:48.850]  I'm not going to name the phone manufacturer, but it's like that.
[24:48.850 --> 24:54.410]  It's like a very slick, um, uh, uh, plasticky feeling.
[24:54.410 --> 24:54.830]  I don't know.
[24:55.090 --> 24:59.670]  It, it, it leaves your pocket very, very, very easily and, uh, uh, quickly.
[25:00.650 --> 25:00.850]  Wow.
[25:01.030 --> 25:08.250]  Y'all that's, uh, that's something as far as, as far as different ways that people, um, use notes and money and coins and things like that.
[25:08.390 --> 25:09.330]  And we're fascinated by it all.
[25:09.450 --> 25:10.110]  Send us your stories.
[25:10.250 --> 25:18.810]  If you have stories about currency in your particular country, um, or maybe, maybe you, uh, live in a small community in the U S and you use an alternative currency.
[25:19.050 --> 25:23.710]  Um, there's a couple places, uh, I know in Massachusetts, the Berkshire bills.
[25:23.710 --> 25:24.290]  Berkshire bills.
[25:24.390 --> 25:25.170]  I just learned about this.
[25:25.250 --> 25:34.910]  We were going to go and we were going to, uh, check those out, but there are all kinds of ways of handling value in, um, in alternative ways.
[25:34.910 --> 25:41.970]  And, uh, and so please send us a story or tell us, um, your experience using different forms of payment.
[25:42.370 --> 25:53.130]  Um, you know, something other than what we would expect, like your, uh, fare card on the transit or, um, just, uh, uh, regular, uh, bills and, and so on.
[25:53.310 --> 25:54.490]  So, um, very interesting.
[25:54.670 --> 25:59.590]  Maybe, maybe we'll see some, some holographic or, uh, enhanced coins here in the U S soon.
[25:59.590 --> 26:00.650]  Right to us.
[26:00.890 --> 26:05.090]  O th at 2600.com with, uh, your ideas, stories, uh, feedback.
[26:05.090 --> 26:06.750]  We want to hear from you here at off the hook.
[26:07.050 --> 26:07.790]  Uh, okay.
[26:07.850 --> 26:10.030]  So other stories, uh, there's a lot going on actually.
[26:10.330 --> 26:18.230]  Um, we, we, we just, uh, went through something rather, uh, rather sad, but rather predictable at the same time.
[26:18.390 --> 26:24.830]  And that's this latest Republican move to, um, uh, to push back these FCC privacy rules.
[26:24.830 --> 26:36.930]  Now, uh, uh, the House Republicans voted yesterday to repeal a set of landmark privacy, uh, protections for web users, uh, which, uh, is of course a sharp pivot away from the internet policies of the Obama administration.
[26:37.530 --> 26:41.230]  And of course, President Trump is expected to sign the measure.
[26:41.590 --> 26:49.150]  Now, um, anybody care to address just what these, um, privacy rules, um, uh, gave us?
[26:49.150 --> 27:03.030]  I, I, I believe they allowed for internet service providers to not, um, uh, invade our privacy quite so, um, uh, quite so readily as, as, uh, they will now have the, the freedom to do.
[27:03.230 --> 27:05.910]  Uh, Bernie, any, any, uh, any insight on this?
[27:06.530 --> 27:18.350]  Well, what, what, um, what the former Federal Communications Commission, FCC, headed up by, uh, Tom Wheeler, who was, uh, uh, President Obama's choice of, uh, the chairperson.
[27:18.350 --> 27:37.430]  It's chairperson at the FCC, uh, Tom Wheeler had, uh, put through, uh, new regulations, not a law, but regulations by the FCC that, that would, when it went into effect, well, later this year, which of course never happened because it's a, it's going to be trounced by Trump.
[27:37.890 --> 27:45.810]  Basically, the, the, the regulations that were to have happened shortly would require ISPs to, to, to, to have your permission.
[27:46.230 --> 27:58.870]  You'd have to opt in, in order for your web, basically your web browsing history and other related information to be shared with, uh, business partners and advertisers of the ISP that you are using.
[27:59.670 --> 28:11.790]  And, um, the ISPs were, were screaming because, uh, companies like Google and Facebook, uh, didn't have that requirement, but they're not ISPs.
[28:12.250 --> 28:25.850]  So I, I, I, I think Republicans who are pushing this legislation, sponsored it and have voted for it, are comparing apples and oranges, you know, uh, Facebook and Google are most for non-ISPs.
[28:26.150 --> 28:26.510]  Right.
[28:26.630 --> 28:28.870]  They're not something that you use from, from the start.
[28:28.890 --> 28:32.610]  And, uh, that covers your entire browsing session and everything you do.
[28:32.710 --> 28:38.250]  And there's a lot of, uh, a lot of information that they have access to that nobody else would have access to.
[28:38.330 --> 28:48.250]  Now I know, um, there's all kinds of outrage at this, uh, quite predictably, but there's also, there's also some, uh, creative responses that people are starting to formulate now.
[28:48.370 --> 28:52.470]  And joining us in the studio is Voltaire to, uh, to outline at least one of them.
[28:53.030 --> 29:09.850]  Well, one of them that is making the ranch is a, um, a Kickstarter project to, um, or maybe this GoFundMe to, uh, uh, buy up, quote unquote, buy up, uh, individual, the browsing view, uh, habits of the, uh, senators and congresspeople that voted for this.
[29:10.050 --> 29:21.290]  So, wait, the senators and congressmen who voted for this particular, uh, uh, rollback of FCC privacy rules, buying their browsing history and doing what with it?
[29:21.430 --> 29:28.310]  Well, that's the plan, except, like, sadly, that are, maybe for better, that's not really how it works.
[29:28.650 --> 29:37.930]  Uh, uh, the ISPs don't actually sell your, uh, they have the data and that's why it's so bad, this law has passed, but they don't actually, like, sell it to advertisers.
[29:38.110 --> 29:43.930]  So, you can't go up to them and say, like, hey, I would like Emmanuel Goldstein's, uh, browsing history, how much will it cost me?
[29:44.670 --> 29:45.030]  You...
[29:45.030 --> 29:46.610]  Well, then, what do they do with it, then?
[29:46.710 --> 29:50.110]  They, they sell, basically, they sell, like, a demographic, like, they sell your ad space.
[29:50.410 --> 30:08.310]  So, if you, so, if I am, like, a soap company and I want to sell soap, it'd be, like, let me look up, uh, I'd like to buy the, the ad space of people, on people's browsers that, uh, are, uh, websites that, if they browse based on cleaning tools or something,
[30:09.070 --> 30:11.050]  and then, uh, it'll be displayed on there.
[30:11.150 --> 30:13.110]  But the ISPs are the only ones that have your history.
[30:13.270 --> 30:15.550]  So, this Kickstarter's not gonna go anywhere.
[30:15.730 --> 30:16.510]  You don't think it will?
[30:16.570 --> 30:16.790]  Okay.
[30:16.830 --> 30:17.390]  I disagree.
[30:17.710 --> 30:18.350]  Okay, go ahead, Bernie.
[30:19.130 --> 30:38.130]  Well, I don't know exactly the, the specific technical means that are done, but, but several researchers have proven that they, they've been able to pierce the, uh, veil of anonymity that ISPs hold up, uh, between their subscribers and advertisers and other business partners,
[30:38.410 --> 30:41.030]  um, but using a variety of technical techniques.
[30:41.210 --> 30:49.590]  Like, I remember a couple years ago, with me or some of our listeners, remember, we were talking about Verizon Wireless was inserting something called Super Cookie, which wasn't really a cookie.
[30:49.590 --> 30:55.550]  It was actually changing the URL of every site that you visited by adding a unique identifier to it.
[30:55.550 --> 31:09.010]  Um, but, um, uh, business partners with Verizon Wireless, keep advertisers who were participating in this program, could fairly easily figure out, um, who you were from this so-called anonymous identifier.
[31:09.010 --> 31:24.270]  And I would imagine that whatever techniques, uh, Verizon and Comcast and other ISPs start to use, Time Warner, et cetera, um, I'm sure researchers who are very good at this stuff will be able to pierce the veil of anonymity and determine who is who.
[31:24.710 --> 31:28.630]  So, um, I think this, I do think this Kickstarter has promise.
[31:28.790 --> 31:38.330]  And I would love to see, uh, the people, the Republicans who have, uh, uh, proposed this, who have sponsored this legislation.
[31:38.730 --> 31:39.870]  And it's a big surprise.
[31:39.870 --> 31:43.850]  They actually got a lot of money from the, from the ISPs as, as campaign donations.
[31:44.010 --> 31:45.250]  I mean, I'm sure it's just a coincidence.
[31:45.910 --> 32:01.670]  Um, I would like them, all their web browsing history to be outed, including every, everybody who voted for this legislation to be outed and have all the, uh, who knows what kind of really crazy porn fetishes they're, uh, they're, they're, they're browsing.
[32:01.990 --> 32:03.130]  I would, I would love to know.
[32:03.810 --> 32:03.970]  Right.
[32:04.150 --> 32:22.910]  So yes, the, uh, the ISPs will, would be able to pierce the veil of anonymity, um, uh, by, like you discussed, but the, but the Kickstarter and the people that are, are advertisers that are purchasing this stuff, they're not going to, the data that they sell them is not sufficient to be able to do that on an,
[32:22.910 --> 32:26.010]  to, onto an individual basis, which is not to say it's not scary.
[32:26.010 --> 32:27.430]  And this is a horrible law.
[32:27.570 --> 32:28.350]  We should be upset about it.
[32:28.350 --> 32:29.050]  Let me just ask this.
[32:29.270 --> 32:40.090]  Um, if, if they, um, if we went to them and said, will you give us this, this information, are they allowed under what they just, uh, pushed through to do that?
[32:40.090 --> 32:42.770]  If they change their policy, could they sell that directly to us?
[32:43.150 --> 32:45.690]  Yes, but they probably wouldn't knowing that we're activists.
[32:45.870 --> 32:47.510]  And that's another reason why they've kicked it out.
[32:47.590 --> 32:49.370]  Well, we got to trick them into doing it somehow then.
[32:49.730 --> 33:10.670]  Is it possible that someone's already gotten, uh, a list because they, uh, sort of coyly asked for a specific demographic that were perhaps government employees of certain types or, um, um, public figures and, and who do certain things based on that, that would then lead to that assumption that they are,
[33:10.710 --> 33:11.610]  are those officials.
[33:11.810 --> 33:12.170]  Alex.
[33:12.630 --> 33:17.170]  But I think Bernie brings up, uh, you know, two really interesting points here.
[33:17.390 --> 33:36.330]  I think the first one going back to the fact that, you know, this, this congressional use of the Congressional Review Act to repeal rules of the FCC that actually weren't even in effect yet was ostensibly to put ISPs on the same footing as website operators because for consumers,
[33:36.330 --> 33:39.990]  it was too confusing to have two different sets of rules.
[33:40.130 --> 33:49.770]  One's to an ISP and one that applies to website operators like Google and Facebook and therefore Google and Facebook, we're at a distinct, I'm sorry, ISPs are at a distinct disadvantage as opposed to Google and Facebook.
[33:50.090 --> 33:51.510]  That's totally crazy.
[33:51.830 --> 33:57.390]  I mean, that is essentially, and I'll choose my words very carefully here, that's urinating in your pocket and telling you it's raining.
[33:57.670 --> 34:02.890]  Uh, given, given that, you know, the FCC was Pacifica, uh, and we are in a Pacifica station here.
[34:03.250 --> 34:04.750]  Uh, that's totally insane.
[34:04.890 --> 34:07.470]  It doesn't seem like that should pass the smell test here.
[34:07.710 --> 34:17.470]  But when we go back to the issue of monetizing and anonymizing this data, uh, this is something we actually spoke about at BloomCon last week at a digital forensics conference.
[34:17.650 --> 34:18.090]  BloomCon?
[34:18.210 --> 34:21.490]  BloomCon in, in Pennsylvania, as a, as a matter of fact, Bernie.
[34:21.650 --> 34:24.070]  Is that James Joyce related or Bloomberg News related?
[34:24.070 --> 34:24.870]  I wish it was.
[34:24.970 --> 34:25.090]  Okay.
[34:25.250 --> 34:25.410]  Yeah.
[34:25.670 --> 34:27.350]  Oh, flowers blooming in the spring, maybe.
[34:27.630 --> 34:30.710]  No, Bloomsburg University in Pennsylvania.
[34:31.090 --> 34:31.690]  Ah, okay.
[34:31.790 --> 34:32.510]  Yeah, exactly.
[34:33.290 --> 34:41.650]  Um, but in any event, you have the situation where, um, ISPs are really reluctant to engage in something called deep packet inspection, right?
[34:41.670 --> 34:52.150]  They don't want to really be seen to spy on their customers, but they have this budding problem with people like, I don't know if you remember them, Emmanuel, but the MPAA, have you heard of them?
[34:52.450 --> 34:55.910]  I do have a dim recollection of those clowns, yes.
[34:56.130 --> 34:57.310]  I think you might, yes, yeah.
[34:57.910 --> 35:05.030]  Um, so the MPAA is very concerned about people using things like Kodi and its, and its add-ons, its unauthorized add-ons.
[35:05.210 --> 35:05.450]  Kodi.
[35:05.690 --> 35:05.950]  Kodi.
[35:06.030 --> 35:07.110]  Say a word or two about Kodi.
[35:07.110 --> 35:13.510]  Kodi is a media player that can be very easily sideloaded onto a number of devices like a Fire Stick.
[35:13.830 --> 35:17.070]  Once Kodi is sideloaded on, it's got a really elegant user interface.
[35:17.070 --> 35:26.350]  It's great for playing movies, for streaming content, and it also has the ability for people to utilize unauthorized add-ons that allow them to stream copyrighted content.
[35:26.650 --> 35:36.310]  Now, of, of, there's, that's questionable, of questionable legality, uh, in terms of copyright infringement, it definitely could constitute something akin to theft of services.
[35:36.310 --> 35:43.070]  Well, it also allows you to, uh, to watch, uh, television stations in other countries and other cities, which I think is a great thing to be able to do.
[35:43.250 --> 35:47.590]  It's got nothing to do with copyright, it's got to do with just seeing what's happening in other parts of the world.
[35:47.710 --> 35:48.270]  I think that's amazing.
[35:48.410 --> 35:49.030]  Absolutely, absolutely.
[35:49.290 --> 36:00.050]  They're, they're actually right now blocking orders in the UK to prevent some of these streaming sites because people, people in pubs or pub operators are, uh, using them to stream, uh, Premier League football games.
[36:00.050 --> 36:00.890]  Ah, illegally.
[36:01.270 --> 36:01.390]  Okay.
[36:01.470 --> 36:02.230]  Or without paying for them.
[36:02.330 --> 36:02.490]  Uh-huh.
[36:02.810 --> 36:03.130]  Uh-huh.
[36:03.150 --> 36:06.510]  Um, so in any event, they have this big problem with copyright infringement, they don't know how to solve it.
[36:06.690 --> 36:16.650]  Now, let's assume that they institute something like deep packet inspection, which would be otherwise very, very difficult and expensive to implement, uh, and customers wouldn't want it.
[36:16.710 --> 36:21.090]  Well, they could duly appease somebody like the MPAA that's breathing down their neck.
[36:21.190 --> 36:35.670]  And then all of a sudden they have a lot of data about its customer base and application level data about what kind of apps people are using and when and where and how frequently and when you read the New York Times and when you read the New York Post and on what devices as well.
[36:35.870 --> 36:38.170]  Well, that data can now be monetized.
[36:38.310 --> 36:40.270]  And what stories you read, what you're interested in.
[36:40.670 --> 36:44.170]  To say nothing of it being, uh, leaked or otherwise compromised.
[36:44.230 --> 36:46.990]  I mean, you just store a bunch of data around like that.
[36:47.290 --> 36:53.730]  There's inevitable chance of someone who is not authorized or that your institution is going to leak it in some way.
[36:53.730 --> 36:58.610]  Well, speaking of that, now let's say that this data is sold to a third party.
[36:58.790 --> 37:06.910]  It's, it's packaged and bundled and sold and, and supposedly anonymized in certain respects, but we don't really know what level of data is going to be packaged and bought and sold in the future.
[37:07.190 --> 37:08.770]  And that's sold to a third party.
[37:08.990 --> 37:17.410]  And then another third party, namely, let's say a government agency or a contractor to a government agency buys that particular bundle of data.
[37:17.430 --> 37:22.170]  Well, if the NYPD is just interested in seeing what people in this building are doing, they could buy it too.
[37:22.170 --> 37:23.150]  They could buy it.
[37:23.210 --> 37:23.370]  Uh-huh.
[37:23.470 --> 37:29.050]  It doesn't, is there anything in what they, what they just pushed through Congress, uh, saying that they have to anonymize it?
[37:29.570 --> 37:36.530]  I don't believe so, but they probably would from the ISP standpoint, from a business standpoint, I think they would.
[37:36.790 --> 37:45.710]  But this is also raises another huge issue, which is if we have only one ISP because everyone keeps merging, then we have no choice, right?
[37:45.810 --> 37:49.650]  Then we just have to deal with this invasion of privacy at the customer level.
[37:49.790 --> 37:49.990]  Uh-huh.
[37:49.990 --> 37:52.470]  We're the ones who are going to suffer if there's no competition here.
[37:52.610 --> 37:53.410]  Well, it's amazing to me.
[37:53.570 --> 37:55.390]  This, uh, this just went through yesterday.
[37:55.650 --> 38:00.490]  And I believe, uh, Bernie, correct me if I'm wrong, this was a completely Republican, uh, bill.
[38:00.670 --> 38:01.850]  No Democrats supported it?
[38:02.370 --> 38:04.610]  Yeah, it was, uh, straight down party lines, Emmanuel.
[38:04.830 --> 38:16.790]  There were, uh, I don't believe any Democrats voted for this, which is kind of surprising because a lot of Democrats do, do accept money, uh, a lot of money from, uh, internet service providers and other folks in the, uh, tech industry.
[38:17.050 --> 38:29.050]  But, uh, this was, uh, such an egregious violation of Americans' privacy that I think, uh, uh, Democrats actually wanted to stand up for something they purport to believe in, which is, uh, consumer protection.
[38:29.050 --> 38:31.430]  Well, just a little history here, though.
[38:31.590 --> 38:38.890]  This is something that the Obama administration, uh, uh, pushed through that's now being, uh, pushed, pushed away, repealed.
[38:39.050 --> 38:47.910]  So before the Obama administration did this, are we pretty much, uh, in the same, uh, boat that we will be in soon when, when this is signed by Trump?
[38:49.390 --> 38:54.090]  We actually made far, even farther backwards than we were before then.
[38:54.090 --> 39:03.570]  I haven't read the, the language of the legislation that's now, and it's going to be modified for, for sure, because it has to go, there's got to be a Senate version before it goes to the president kind of thing.
[39:03.630 --> 39:11.330]  So we don't know what the final language of this is yet, but, um, basically it's a, it's kind of like a, an Obamacare, uh, repeal and replace.
[39:11.510 --> 39:27.530]  They're repealing, they're repealing the privacy, uh, uh, regulations that the Obama administration's FCC, uh, chair put through, and replacing it with something that's probably more, uh, odious than what we had even before that.
[39:28.210 --> 39:30.670]  Don't they realize how evil this makes them look, though?
[39:30.870 --> 39:31.790]  They don't seem to care.
[39:32.290 --> 39:33.110]  No, they don't care.
[39:33.410 --> 39:33.650]  Wow.
[39:34.150 --> 39:42.230]  They care about getting money from their campaign contributors, some of the largest of whom are, you know, that service providers like Comcast, Verizon, Time Warner, et cetera.
[39:42.350 --> 39:43.090]  That's what they care about.
[39:55.970 --> 39:57.030]  That's privacy to begin with.
[39:57.290 --> 40:01.350]  Oh, so we never even achieved the point that Obama, uh, administration was trying to get us to.
[40:01.570 --> 40:01.810]  Exactly.
[40:01.910 --> 40:02.190]  That's right.
[40:02.430 --> 40:02.590]  Wow.
[40:02.590 --> 40:03.150]  We were about to.
[40:03.890 --> 40:04.690]  So close.
[40:05.050 --> 40:05.810]  So very close.
[40:05.990 --> 40:09.890]  If, if it looks evil, they would probably say that it's because we're looking at it wrong.
[40:10.170 --> 40:10.410]  Uh-huh.
[40:10.790 --> 40:10.910]  Yeah.
[40:11.050 --> 40:12.350]  Okay, uh, one more point.
[40:12.710 --> 40:12.990]  Voltaire.
[40:13.270 --> 40:28.870]  So, this was on party grounds, uh, the vote, but we end up getting, like, 34 Republicans to, um, to vote, uh, against the bill, which I think is, it just, uh, speaks to how powerful the, um, activist groups like Fight for the Future and the EFS lobbying.
[40:28.990 --> 40:30.630]  Wait, 34 Republicans in the House voted against this?
[40:30.650 --> 40:30.850]  Exactly.
[40:30.850 --> 40:31.530]  I wasn't aware of that.
[40:31.650 --> 40:34.050]  I thought it was completely all Republicans voted for it.
[40:34.150 --> 40:34.210]  Yeah.
[40:34.210 --> 40:34.830]  Okay, that's good.
[40:34.910 --> 40:35.090]  Yeah.
[40:35.550 --> 40:43.570]  The people that voted for it were only Republicans, but it's great that so many voted against it, and it speaks to the power of, uh, uh, pro-internet groups.
[40:43.690 --> 40:44.070]  Absolutely.
[40:44.610 --> 40:48.370]  Same thing with, with healthcare and all kinds of different, uh, battles that are going on right now.
[40:48.750 --> 40:55.050]  And let's, uh, get their names and scratch them off the list of people, uh, whose, uh, internet history we'll be obtaining one way or another.
[40:55.510 --> 40:56.430]  Um, wow.
[40:56.770 --> 40:59.770]  Okay, uh, uh, there's something else that, uh, we want to talk about.
[40:59.870 --> 41:02.270]  In fact, Alex, uh, that's, that's what you're here to talk about.
[41:02.410 --> 41:18.370]  And that's this, uh, case going on right here in New York, having to do with, um, with Bitcoin, uh, and, um, and, and, and some, um, some regulations that are, uh, being directed at, uh, Bitcoin processors, I believe.
[41:18.490 --> 41:22.730]  Can, can you briefly explain this to us in a way that your grandmother would understand?
[41:23.030 --> 41:23.910]  I will try.
[41:24.250 --> 41:24.750]  Absolutely.
[41:25.030 --> 41:26.250]  And I have explained this to her.
[41:26.410 --> 41:26.810]  So yes.
[41:27.010 --> 41:27.350]  Oh, good.
[41:27.550 --> 41:28.390]  Um, yes.
[41:28.970 --> 41:31.710]  Uh, this is, this is a very interesting case.
[41:31.970 --> 41:39.310]  Um, it's entitled Theo Chino versus the Department of Financial Services, the New York Department of Financial Services.
[41:39.490 --> 41:43.950]  And it essentially is about the regulation of cryptocurrencies in New York state.
[41:44.090 --> 41:44.290]  Okay.
[41:44.490 --> 42:00.470]  The Department of Financial Services, you know, overseas banks, insurance agencies, anybody that essentially, uh, has to do with, uh, financial products, things like that, you know, uh, for instance, insurance companies, they are regulated to the extent to which they have to keep reserves on file,
[42:00.630 --> 42:01.450]  things like that.
[42:01.630 --> 42:12.430]  So what they promulgated a couple of years ago was the requirement for anybody who transmits or, uh, is involved in the processing or the receipt for transmission of cryptocurrencies.
[42:12.950 --> 42:16.870]  And they seem to specifically target Bitcoin as well.
[42:17.510 --> 42:24.330]  Um, now this particular lawsuit by Theo Chino, and he is the sole plaintiff in this lawsuit, nobody has joined him.
[42:24.470 --> 42:26.270]  And that's an interesting point that we'll get to later.
[42:26.710 --> 42:32.910]  Um, he's challenged this and it is currently before Judge Billings in New York Supreme Court.
[42:33.210 --> 42:35.330]  Uh, it's at the motion to dismiss side.
[42:35.430 --> 42:39.390]  The New York Attorney General is, uh, opposing Theo Chino.
[42:39.610 --> 42:42.470]  And what Theo is arguing is, is rather interesting.
[42:42.810 --> 42:50.170]  Uh, he's arguing that New York really has no authority to regulate at the state level, uh, Bitcoins.
[42:50.450 --> 42:56.710]  That this goes way well over and, and outside of the ambit of the Department of Financial Services.
[42:57.150 --> 43:02.750]  Uh, and moreover, there really isn't the research to support the need for this particular regulation.
[43:03.090 --> 43:10.630]  Now, on that point, one very interesting affidavit was filed by a lawyer by the name of Jim Harper in support of Theo Chino.
[43:11.050 --> 43:24.050]  And he, he had, uh, essentially recited a series of facts where he had asked for the research underlying the Department of Financial Services needs statement that there needs to be a regulation.
[43:24.670 --> 43:29.090]  And DFS told him that they would give it to him essentially within 20 days.
[43:29.310 --> 43:32.830]  And then the expiration of that 20 days, they said, sorry, we're going to need 120 days.
[43:33.050 --> 43:36.370]  And then at the end of that 120 days, they never provided anything.
[43:36.850 --> 43:42.670]  So it does not necessarily seem like they've put in the right amount of research in order to engage in this level of regulation.
[43:42.910 --> 43:54.370]  It also has a really deleterious effect on the ability for smaller players in the cryptocurrency market to join in, uh, you know, join in the fun, so to speak.
[43:54.790 --> 43:57.590]  Uh, because the regulations are, are pretty onerous.
[43:57.710 --> 43:59.790]  You know, there's a $5,000 fee just to apply.
[43:59.990 --> 44:01.150]  It's like getting your car inspected.
[44:01.650 --> 44:01.650]  Okay.
[44:01.650 --> 44:05.830]  Well, just to be clear that we're not talking about people that, uh, want to accept Bitcoin.
[44:05.850 --> 44:08.910]  Uh, we're talking about people who want to, uh, what precisely?
[44:09.150 --> 44:13.550]  Well, they, they, if they're processing it essentially, and that's what Theo was about to do.
[44:13.710 --> 44:26.630]  Processing meaning, okay, so someone else got paid in Bitcoin and now they submitted to you to probably, you're like sort of acting as some sort of intermediary where you hold onto it, you store it, you transmit it for these particular types of stores.
[44:26.890 --> 44:34.970]  And what Theo was going to do is, um, was very innovative and it was to establish a company that allowed bodegas to accept Bitcoins.
[44:35.110 --> 44:35.310]  Okay.
[44:35.490 --> 44:36.830]  And he performed a lot of research.
[44:36.830 --> 44:48.950]  In fact, he had contracts, I believe, with seven different bodegas in order to do this until the license requirement called the BitLicense requirement was promulgated, which took him essentially out of the playing field.
[44:49.030 --> 44:49.390]  Okay.
[44:49.570 --> 44:52.910]  Now, so this, this license requirement, this came out of nowhere?
[44:53.110 --> 44:55.490]  Was it in response to what he was trying to do?
[44:56.070 --> 44:57.450]  Not necessarily in response.
[44:57.450 --> 45:01.770]  This was under some consideration and there was a commenting period for a period of time.
[45:01.770 --> 45:11.170]  Uh, and I believe the Bitcoin Foundation had, uh, made some serious comments on the DFS regulation and also requested their research, which was never given to them.
[45:11.650 --> 45:17.730]  Um, and then the, the, this regulation was promulgated and now everybody has to comply with it.
[45:17.850 --> 45:35.970]  So it has this interesting effect of forcing out all the smaller competitors, uh, in this particular market and forcing out of New York state, a lot of innovative companies that could be, um, employing people could be doing really innovative research that could be doing some very cool things in New York.
[45:36.170 --> 45:39.650]  So everybody else is going elsewhere because of this onerous requirement.
[45:39.830 --> 45:46.790]  The only people that are sticking around are the bigger players that have essentially venture capital money backing them.
[45:46.870 --> 45:51.050]  And they're not joining in on the fight quite likely.
[45:51.330 --> 45:51.870]  They already have.
[45:52.270 --> 45:53.090]  Because they've already got the license.
[45:53.270 --> 45:54.170]  They've got the money to do it.
[45:54.170 --> 46:01.610]  They have the ability to engage in the very strict level of compliance that DFS is requiring for anybody who would be a licensee.
[46:02.090 --> 46:12.170]  And, um, so this is a, at an interesting juncture right now where apparently at the last court hearing, Judge Billings, uh, requested oral argument on this motion to dismiss.
[46:12.490 --> 46:15.730]  This case is going to be heard, uh, pretty soon.
[46:16.030 --> 46:23.010]  I believe it's May 7th in front of Judge Billings is part in New York Supreme Court, which is over at 60 center street spelled the British way.
[46:23.010 --> 46:23.590]  Oh, can we all go?
[46:23.810 --> 46:23.810]  Of course.
[46:23.910 --> 46:24.490]  We can all go.
[46:24.590 --> 46:24.990]  We should.
[46:25.090 --> 46:25.510]  We should.
[46:25.750 --> 46:26.290]  You want to go?
[46:26.390 --> 46:26.850]  Well, I'll...
[46:26.850 --> 46:27.130]  Let's go.
[46:27.170 --> 46:27.710]  BAI listeners?
[46:27.930 --> 46:29.910]  Well, I don't know if that would help the case, but, uh, no, of course.
[46:30.470 --> 46:31.790]  Not to have all our listeners show up.
[46:31.830 --> 46:32.090]  I don't know.
[46:32.170 --> 46:32.330]  Maybe.
[46:32.490 --> 46:34.870]  But, um, we definitely should be following this.
[46:35.130 --> 46:35.430]  But, uh...
[46:35.430 --> 46:35.830]  Absolutely.
[46:36.110 --> 46:37.330]  This raises all kinds of questions.
[46:37.470 --> 46:38.350]  What do other states do?
[46:38.390 --> 46:39.110]  What happens in New Jersey?
[46:39.190 --> 46:39.850]  What happens in Connecticut?
[46:40.110 --> 46:43.410]  Are they just not taking part in these kinds of, uh, regulations?
[46:43.670 --> 46:46.510]  In New Jersey, if you use cryptocurrency, you go directly to jail.
[46:47.550 --> 46:47.970]  I'm kidding.
[46:47.970 --> 46:48.830]  I don't know if you're joking or not.
[46:48.870 --> 46:49.190]  I'm kidding.
[46:49.410 --> 46:49.690]  That's right.
[46:49.690 --> 46:50.250]  You're lawyers.
[46:50.410 --> 46:51.410]  You have this stone face.
[46:51.410 --> 46:51.970]  You never know.
[46:51.970 --> 46:59.910]  Well, the innovation, the point about innovation, I think, is really important because of the emergence of this technology and where it is in development.
[47:00.310 --> 47:20.810]  Um, and by having, uh, entrenched sort of, uh, a few, uh, companies maintain a sort of pseudo-monopoly by having that entrance into the license, being a license bit, uh, having that bit license, uh, being a, uh, a transactor or a processor being very limited will create this,
[47:20.970 --> 47:31.090]  this, um, uh, technology, uh, historically, uh, in, in a very specific way that maybe one or another company have designed and not much further.
[47:31.430 --> 47:41.330]  And for, for you to really explore how it's going to be used and how it's going to be adopted and how accessible it is, you, you need sort of a level playing field.
[47:41.430 --> 47:55.850]  And this is sort of the, I guess the argument Theo's making is that this is the first step in making it onerous for anyone to gain access and compete and innovate and, and thus, uh, push the limits of what this is, uh, capable of in the market.
[47:56.050 --> 48:09.750]  Well, you, you know, you've hit on a really, I think, smart point here because the argument that the attorney general is making to try to dismiss this case, one of the arguments that they're making is that Theo Chino, as an individual and sole plaintiff,
[48:09.750 --> 48:22.650]  does not necessarily have standing to challenge this regulation because he doesn't have a stake in the market, even though he had seven contracts with bodegas to provide what appears to be a small service.
[48:22.750 --> 48:23.970]  That sounds like a stake to me.
[48:24.230 --> 48:24.630]  Absolutely.
[48:24.810 --> 48:25.250]  It sounds like a stake.
[48:25.250 --> 48:38.490]  Well, there's opportunity costs, of course, given that he did research, he could have, uh, put together a business plan based on that research, which would then, uh, at least assume that there's some sort of, uh, economic, uh, a reason for him to go forward and thus a loss if he can.
[48:38.750 --> 48:39.050]  Yeah.
[48:39.150 --> 48:40.730]  I, I, I think this lawsuit has legs.
[48:40.850 --> 48:41.950]  I think it's really important.
[48:42.090 --> 48:46.770]  I think it's, it's being well litigated and, uh, I think we should all show up for the next hearing.
[48:46.970 --> 48:47.670]  Uh, go ahead, Valtair.
[48:48.270 --> 48:56.370]  Do you think the motivation for, uh, banning this is, uh, is for consumer protection or, like, uh, tax collection reasons?
[48:56.550 --> 49:09.250]  Or do you think it's, uh, or do you think it's because of the fear of Bitcoin as, like, enabling, like, the pure, things that are banned for pure tannica reasons, like, um, like drugs or, um, other things?
[49:09.450 --> 49:16.250]  I, I think it is a, a form of, uh, paternalism that may not be required in this particular situation.
[49:17.030 --> 49:20.590]  Um, you know, in, in Britain, it would be called the version of the nanny state, right?
[49:20.670 --> 49:35.110]  Where, you know, DFS wants to step in because they think consumers need to be protected, that somehow these currencies may drop in value if they're, if they're, uh, if their exchange isn't regulated by somebody watching with a very, very close eye.
[49:35.570 --> 49:46.610]  And it, it raises, I think, a very fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of Bitcoins as well, because Bitcoins aren't necessarily exactly a legal tender or form of currency.
[49:46.850 --> 49:50.370]  Well, it's interesting because, you know, we've taken Bitcoins now for a number of years.
[49:50.370 --> 49:55.130]  In fact, uh, many of our hope attendees paid in Bitcoin and our, our store still accepts Bitcoin.
[49:55.790 --> 50:02.490]  And, um, we, we had a lot of pushback from people that, um, were, were wary of us doing that in the first place.
[50:02.990 --> 50:18.070]  Uh, everything from, from, uh, people saying that somehow it's not, uh, um, um, carbon friendly, uh, because computers are used to, uh, mine Bitcoins or whatever, uh, to, uh, people saying that, uh, you know, underworld, uh, mob bosses use Bitcoin.
[50:18.070 --> 50:25.430]  And, uh, you might, you know, in fact, our bank even warned us that this could be a suspicious, uh, transaction when it's completely legitimate.
[50:25.430 --> 50:27.070]  And we've done quite well with Bitcoin.
[50:27.110 --> 50:36.930]  It's, it's something that is, I think the present and the future, and it's only the beginning, uh, this kind of thing we need to be encouraging, not trying to over restrict and intimidate people out of.
[50:37.190 --> 50:37.670]  Yeah.
[50:37.810 --> 50:57.350]  And exactly the, the reason to, uh, allow this to be, um, experimented with and, and exist in the market is because it allows for people to access it and use it in ways other than, uh, being some dark Lord of the, uh, under dark nets or whatever, uh, uh,
[50:57.350 --> 50:57.970]  you're doing.
[50:58.150 --> 51:04.270]  If you have to go all the way there to, to use this, it's going to limit the amount of those, to those types of people.
[51:04.490 --> 51:21.850]  And, and, and with those type of ability, but by allowing, um, small businesses and people with ideas like this to get out there and try it, then, then you can come back and maybe have a, a educative, educated perspective on how it will be used and potentially abused,
[51:21.990 --> 51:22.930]  of course, in the market.
[51:23.090 --> 51:25.150]  But you don't know that unless you give it the opportunity.
[51:25.210 --> 51:30.250]  And this seems like a, a really, uh, ham handed way to, to cut that off before it even happens.
[51:30.570 --> 51:31.570]  Uh, Bernie, did you have something to add?
[51:32.030 --> 51:38.530]  Yeah, I just wanted to say any of our listeners that are more interested in following this and finding out when the next hearing is going to be that I think we should all attend.
[51:39.230 --> 51:42.350]  Um, the website is called, it's www.
[51:42.870 --> 51:48.670]  www.article78againstnydfs.com.
[51:48.670 --> 51:50.590]  That's the New York Department of Financial Services.
[51:50.810 --> 51:57.990]  www.article78againstnydfs.com.
[51:58.050 --> 52:04.090]  Or just email us at oth2600.com and we will send you the URL so you can keep updated.
[52:04.310 --> 52:16.950]  And I think this is a really important case because it really determines whether our, our freedom, our financial freedom with regard to anonymous currency, currency is going to be, uh, uh, exist in New York State.
[52:17.170 --> 52:21.210]  Fortunately, this isn't happening in other states, but it's happening in New York, which is bad.
[52:21.790 --> 52:23.650]  Let me correct myself, by the way.
[52:23.810 --> 52:28.650]  I, um, I'm looking at my notes and I believe the hearing is going to be on 4 May, not 7 May.
[52:28.770 --> 52:31.750]  So I believe it is 4 May in front of Judge Billings.
[52:31.850 --> 52:33.890]  Can we just verify, I guess, somebody with internet access?
[52:34.330 --> 52:36.530]  Verify that because we do want to give out correct information.
[52:36.850 --> 52:36.850]  Absolutely.
[52:36.970 --> 52:37.510]  And you can see that.
[52:37.610 --> 52:51.690]  And this, this article 78, that the reason why that's in the, the domain name is, uh, an article 78 proceeding is where is the, the sort of legal mechanism in New York by which you challenge an administrative agency's decision-making process.
[52:51.950 --> 52:53.470]  That's why it's an article 78.
[52:53.670 --> 52:59.770]  So the other fight on this, if we lose at the article 78, I say we mean Theo because we're obviously on his side.
[52:59.770 --> 53:10.050]  Uh, if that's lost, there is still the opportunity to appeal this, that decision to the first department, which is the appellate court in, uh, for Manhattan essentially.
[53:10.490 --> 53:15.110]  And, uh, and then from there you can appeal to the court of appeals, the highest court in New York.
[53:15.190 --> 53:17.270]  And from the court of appeals, it can go to the Supreme Court.
[53:17.530 --> 53:26.850]  So the article 78 may not be the be all end all, but I do think it does present a viable opportunity to strike down this, uh, offensive regulation.
[53:27.050 --> 53:27.430]  Yes.
[53:27.610 --> 53:31.030]  And it's something that, uh, uh, as far as we know, it's unique to New York.
[53:31.170 --> 53:32.210]  I'm not sure about other states.
[53:32.370 --> 53:45.870]  Other states have, uh, attempted to, to promulgate some kind of regulation of cryptocurrency and decided to shelve it like California, where they decided that they needed to, to really understand this a bit better before they started regulating it, that,
[53:45.990 --> 53:50.690]  that what they had on the books wasn't necessarily fit for a long lasting regulatory framework.
[53:50.890 --> 53:52.810]  And maybe we should look at what other countries do as well.
[53:53.010 --> 53:54.350]  Maybe some countries are getting it right.
[53:54.470 --> 53:56.870]  Maybe some countries are going completely down the wrong road.
[53:56.890 --> 53:57.950]  We don't want to go down as well.
[53:58.270 --> 53:58.270]  Sure.
[53:58.550 --> 53:59.330]  And Rob, you have an update?
[53:59.610 --> 53:59.730]  Yep.
[53:59.870 --> 54:01.010]  Just, uh, confirming the info.
[54:01.210 --> 54:04.310]  It's, uh, from article 78 against NYDFS.com.
[54:04.810 --> 54:17.730]  The, uh, hearing date is Thursday, May the 4th, 2017, May the 4th, Star Wars Day, uh, 930 AM, uh, in front of Justice Lucy Billings, part 46, room 204 at, uh, the courthouse on 71 Thomas Street, New York, New York, 10013.
[54:18.110 --> 54:19.370]  9.30 in the morning?
[54:19.490 --> 54:20.250]  9.30 in the morning.
[54:20.450 --> 54:21.010]  Wow, that's dedication.
[54:21.350 --> 54:23.190]  We show up as storm troopers that day.
[54:23.470 --> 54:23.610]  Wow.
[54:23.810 --> 54:24.290]  Thomas Street.
[54:24.370 --> 54:26.170]  Is that, is that the street with the crazy phone company building?
[54:26.490 --> 54:28.050]  Oh, it's worth going just to see that.
[54:29.430 --> 54:29.750]  Yeah.
[54:29.750 --> 54:30.390]  33 Thomas Street.
[54:30.550 --> 54:30.770]  Yeah.
[54:31.030 --> 54:32.270]  Go see that building, folks.
[54:32.390 --> 54:33.750]  It's in, uh, Mr. Robot too, I think.
[54:33.890 --> 54:38.990]  Uh, and, uh, it's just one of the amazing, uh, brutalist architecture, uh, uh, examples in the city.
[54:39.630 --> 54:41.090]  Um, but yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry.
[54:41.170 --> 54:42.350]  I'm straying off topic here.
[54:42.830 --> 54:45.290]  Uh, definitely, uh, uh, learn more about this.
[54:45.390 --> 54:55.630]  And in fact, you know, uh, I know Theo comes to the New York City 2600 meetings take place the first Friday of every month, uh, at our new location on, uh, half a block from the old location, 53rd street and third Avenue.
[54:56.370 --> 55:03.670]  Um, and, um, yeah, um, if you want to sign on and help out in any way, uh, that's a great way to get involved as well.
[55:03.750 --> 55:07.730]  And, you know, we, we love hearing people challenging systems in various ways.
[55:07.890 --> 55:08.870]  It's so good to get involved.
[55:08.870 --> 55:17.250]  And the fact that it's even gone this far that, uh, someone isn't just thrown out immediately that, uh, we can get to a point where you're in New York Supreme Court.
[55:17.390 --> 55:18.350]  That's, that's where we are, right?
[55:18.430 --> 55:19.870]  Is that unusual, Alex?
[55:20.030 --> 55:20.570]  I mean, you're a lawyer.
[55:20.690 --> 55:21.850]  Does this kind of thing happen often?
[55:22.070 --> 55:26.930]  Well, New York Supreme Court is, is interesting because it's actually the lowest level court in New York.
[55:27.110 --> 55:29.790]  It's, but it's called the Supreme Court is the lowest level court.
[55:29.930 --> 55:30.530]  That's right.
[55:30.690 --> 55:30.810]  Yeah.
[55:31.010 --> 55:31.970]  Wait, I don't understand that.
[55:32.030 --> 55:32.450]  That makes no sense.
[55:32.470 --> 55:33.430]  It's a misnomer.
[55:33.630 --> 55:34.430]  It's Supreme.
[55:34.790 --> 55:44.950]  It's, it is Supreme in its ability to, to get things wrong sometimes, but it, um, the Supreme burger is, is better than the jumbo burger or the deluxe burger.
[55:45.270 --> 55:46.770]  I mean, I, I, that's just a fact.
[55:46.770 --> 55:47.650]  You learn that in school.
[55:47.650 --> 55:48.850]  That's, that's true.
[55:49.050 --> 55:58.270]  I've never heard of a jumbo court though, but, uh, well, maybe you sure my days before they're over, there will be something like that, but no Supreme Court is essentially the trial level court in New York.
[55:58.430 --> 56:03.030]  Um, and then from there you have the appellate division and then the court of appeals, which is the highest level court.
[56:03.130 --> 56:04.890]  So it is, it's a bit of a misnomer.
[56:05.050 --> 56:15.310]  It's, um, so yeah, you, you end up in New York Supreme Court quite frequently when you're litigating, but the fact that the judge is requesting oral argument on this means that the litigation really has legs.
[56:15.730 --> 56:16.130]  Interesting.
[56:16.230 --> 56:16.450]  Voltaire.
[56:16.610 --> 56:21.470]  How does this relate to the recent banning of, uh, uh, the ETF fund, uh, for Bitcoin?
[56:22.070 --> 56:25.870]  Uh, I don't know to be, uh, that's the, that's the best answer I could give.
[56:25.870 --> 56:27.590]  Well, what, what is, what is this you referring to?
[56:27.750 --> 56:27.910]  Yeah.
[56:27.950 --> 56:39.030]  It's basically the, a company wanted to be able to make it so that you could buy a, and buy a stock whose price reflected that of Bitcoin to make it easier to like speculate at Bitcoin.
[56:39.630 --> 56:49.510]  Um, and the, I forget if it was the state or the federal government said, uh, regulators said that it didn't meet the standards, uh, and they said you can't do it.
[56:50.010 --> 56:52.990]  It's a different, it's a different case, different issue, but it's still interesting.
[56:53.230 --> 57:03.650]  It sounds like you need to go to that hearing and have a conversation with a bunch of people there that are real experts on this and, uh, maybe at the 2600 meeting as well coming up, uh, this, uh, April, uh, a week from this Friday coming up.
[57:04.210 --> 57:15.010]  Um, we're just about out of time, so, uh, we need to, uh, move on out of here, but please write to us if you have any, uh, feedback on this, ideas, questions, corrections, whatnot.
[57:15.550 --> 57:18.410]  OTH at 2600.com is our email address.
[57:18.630 --> 57:33.450]  Uh, remember if you pledge during our winter fun drive, please make sure that pledge is paid so that when we ask for the names and addresses next week, uh, your name is on there if you pledged for, uh, one of the items that we, uh, we, we offered.
[57:33.690 --> 57:37.970]  Uh, we'll be back again next week with another exciting edition of Off The Hook.
[57:38.390 --> 57:40.750]  And, uh, until then, this is Emmanuel for Off The Hook.
[57:40.830 --> 57:41.290]  Have a good night.
[57:49.000 --> 57:49.580]  Oh, yeah.
[57:49.730 --> 57:52.750]  And, um, uh, Volta, you have an announcement about the, uh, the Twitter account.
[57:52.880 --> 57:55.140]  Well, a re-announcement, because we've announced this before.
[57:55.620 --> 57:59.280]  Yes, our Twitter handle is at HackerRadioShow, so please follow us.
[57:59.280 --> 58:00.840]  Well, the ad is assumed.
[58:01.100 --> 58:01.860]  Everyone gets an ad.
[58:02.080 --> 58:03.040]  Uh, HackerRadioShow.
[58:03.160 --> 58:05.280]  That is our, that is our, that is our Twitter account.
[58:05.400 --> 58:09.730]  So join that to get the latest updated news on all kinds of things that are happening with us.
[58:10.560 --> 58:10.920]  Correct.
[58:11.250 --> 58:12.160]  And we'll see you next week.
[58:12.250 --> 58:12.380]  Good night.