[00:00.000 --> 00:03.600]  We, um, we're out of time for this hour, but I want to encourage you to keep calling.
[00:03.800 --> 00:07.440]  I'm going to go answer some phones right now because the phone lines are just jammed.
[00:07.600 --> 00:08.280]  Just jammed.
[00:08.280 --> 00:08.860]  Keep the phones ringing.
[00:09.000 --> 00:09.480]  Keep the calls coming.
[00:09.720 --> 00:10.780]  Thanks, G and Master Control.
[00:10.980 --> 00:12.600]  Thank you, Mark Torres, so much as always.
[00:12.600 --> 00:13.040]  My pleasure.
[00:13.360 --> 00:14.320]  And Christine Blasdale.
[00:14.460 --> 00:16.940]  Stay tuned for more FunDrive programming coming your way.
[00:26.250 --> 00:27.510]  This is Julian Assange.
[00:27.690 --> 00:30.310]  You're listening to WBAI New York.
[00:30.550 --> 00:32.290]  Stay strong and keep listening.
[01:50.070 --> 01:52.290]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:52.470 --> 01:54.090]  The program is off the hook.
[01:54.330 --> 01:58.190]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[01:58.370 --> 02:00.230]  Joined tonight by Rob T.
[02:00.390 --> 02:00.930]  Firefly.
[02:00.930 --> 02:01.850]  Good evening.
[02:02.090 --> 02:02.670]  And Kyle.
[02:02.890 --> 02:03.050]  Hi.
[02:03.610 --> 02:05.130]  Well, uh, it's a two-hour show.
[02:05.590 --> 02:05.890]  Two hours.
[02:05.990 --> 02:07.330]  Was Julian Assange just in here?
[02:07.750 --> 02:08.910]  Because when I heard his voice.
[02:09.130 --> 02:10.590]  I, I, I'm sure I'm not allowed to say.
[02:10.710 --> 02:10.950]  All right.
[02:11.090 --> 02:14.370]  Well, if anybody saw him, um, I, I, I owe him something.
[02:14.570 --> 02:19.210]  Uh, but regardless, uh, we're here for two hours tonight for an exciting edition of Off the Hook.
[02:19.550 --> 02:21.690]  Uh, it's Cory Doctorow Day here in New York City.
[02:21.790 --> 02:22.510]  I don't know if you know that.
[02:22.770 --> 02:29.050]  Uh, Cory Doctorow right now at this moment is speaking at the New York Public Library with, with our friend Edward Snowden.
[02:29.050 --> 02:34.430]  And it's, it's a star-studded extravaganza tonight, but none of that is happening over our airway.
[02:34.530 --> 02:35.110]  It's not right now.
[02:35.210 --> 02:39.010]  What we have instead is we have an interview that we just did with Cory Doctorow.
[02:39.130 --> 02:44.090]  We'll be airing that in just a few minutes, uh, as well as some other, um, uh, interesting material.
[02:44.090 --> 02:54.070]  But as you may have just heard, and as you may have been hearing over the past, um, uh, few hours, even a couple of days, uh, we have started our spring fundraiser here at WBAI.
[02:54.210 --> 02:54.810]  It's very exciting.
[02:54.910 --> 03:03.290]  But, you know, what's exciting for us is that's the first time in recent memory, uh, that I can say we are doing a fundraiser and we are caught up.
[03:03.290 --> 03:05.470]  There are no more premium issues to deal with.
[03:05.470 --> 03:11.030]  Uh, the, the station has, has, uh, pulled together and, and we've gotten everything shipped.
[03:11.130 --> 03:17.570]  If, uh, you have not gotten your premium from the past fundraiser, it's, it's, it's gotta be close.
[03:17.570 --> 03:18.370]  That's all I have to say.
[03:18.550 --> 03:22.090]  And if you're still waiting for something, email us, OTH at 2600.com.
[03:22.170 --> 03:24.370]  But we have not been this caught up literally in years.
[03:24.470 --> 03:25.590]  So I am thrilled about that.
[03:26.070 --> 03:26.430]  Yeah.
[03:26.550 --> 03:27.430]  It's, it's really exciting.
[03:27.630 --> 03:33.950]  And, uh, once again, we have to thank all the, uh, staff and volunteers here who have been pulling together and helping to get all everything we needed to straightened out.
[03:34.070 --> 03:36.210]  Um, so we can, so we can come at this fresh.
[03:36.450 --> 03:48.350]  And, and also those who have contributed, uh, that they are patient and, uh, and pleased, uh, for however long it did take, um, that you're still with us and, uh, enjoying that stuff now.
[03:48.550 --> 03:48.830]  Yeah.
[03:48.870 --> 03:49.950]  We have very patient listeners.
[03:50.110 --> 03:50.890]  There's no question about that.
[03:50.970 --> 03:53.270]  Just to tolerate us alone is, is something.
[03:53.270 --> 03:54.950]  And that support goes a long way.
[03:55.130 --> 03:56.230]  That's why we're here now.
[03:56.550 --> 04:05.670]  And, um, well, in, in, indeed the fund drive will necessitate, will, is a necessary part of, uh, us being here, uh, in the future.
[04:05.910 --> 04:06.230]  Yes.
[04:06.410 --> 04:07.090]  Most definitely.
[04:07.510 --> 04:08.570]  Uh, it's what keeps us on the air.
[04:08.710 --> 04:14.210]  It's just kept WBA on the air for, uh, over 50 years, close to 60, 1960 is when we went on the air.
[04:14.630 --> 04:17.210]  So, wow, we're approaching the 60th anniversary of this place.
[04:17.370 --> 04:17.510]  Boy.
[04:18.430 --> 04:25.070]  Um, so, uh, yeah, if you just want to make the call right away and get it over with, uh, 516, um, 6, 2, where'd the phone number go?
[04:25.310 --> 04:25.670]  There it is.
[04:25.890 --> 04:28.390]  Uh, 516, 6, 2, 0, 3, 6, 0, 2.
[04:28.590 --> 04:29.930]  We have different phone numbers on the wall.
[04:30.270 --> 04:32.070]  Should we read about this other method too?
[04:32.510 --> 04:34.370]  Uh, let's get to that.
[04:34.490 --> 04:36.430]  Let's get, there's another exciting way you can do this.
[04:36.510 --> 04:38.970]  I'm, I'm kind of, I might even do it myself for now.
[04:39.290 --> 04:48.770]  Um, those of you who are at a computer, you could, uh, use the URL, give to WBAI.org and, uh, place your pledge online.
[04:48.770 --> 04:50.390]  Uh, if you prefer that method.
[04:50.490 --> 04:50.690]  Yes.
[04:50.850 --> 04:56.010]  But I do want to say something as far as, um, what, how we operate things here at the radio station.
[04:56.050 --> 05:12.810]  And I don't think we're completely unique in doing it this way, but when we offer premiums, uh, to our listeners, these are things that we've donated, whether it's Rob and his paintings, uh, or, um, um, tickets to an event or something that, um, uh, that we make copies of,
[05:13.070 --> 05:14.650]  uh, uh, uh, talks from conferences.
[05:14.870 --> 05:20.470]  Uh, these are things that we have either had donated to us or that we have donated ourselves.
[05:21.090 --> 05:24.290]  And it's not something that, um, that we're selling.
[05:24.410 --> 05:29.030]  It's not something that goes, um, out of the station's, uh, budget in any way.
[05:29.170 --> 05:33.590]  And we're not diverting things ordinarily we would sell, uh, either.
[05:33.910 --> 05:37.830]  It's completely for the station as a simple thank you.
[05:38.030 --> 05:40.090]  Yes, because we want to thank the station as well.
[05:40.290 --> 05:48.990]  Uh, we're here, we have a voice, we've had a voice since 1988, uh, via off the hook and, and various other, uh, forums as well on this radio station.
[05:49.130 --> 06:02.010]  And when you consider how many other entities are out there, how many other groups, how many other, um, uh, coalitions, um, and individuals have had a chance to express themselves, whether they come into the studio or whether they talk over the phone and call in,
[06:02.130 --> 06:03.570]  it's an amazing resource.
[06:03.570 --> 06:06.150]  It's something that we must always cherish.
[06:06.430 --> 06:09.670]  And it's, it's, it's something that's constantly under threat.
[06:09.870 --> 06:12.590]  So that's why we feel it necessary to donate.
[06:12.830 --> 06:28.690]  And we stop ourselves every now and then because it's, it's heartening to realize how many other things were, uh, inspired by perhaps, uh, our being able to get our message out, uh, many, uh, different projects and, uh, events and, um, maybe even, uh,
[06:28.850 --> 06:31.730]  radio shows, uh, were, were inspired by this.
[06:31.730 --> 06:39.670]  So it's, it's really, um, a gift for us to have this ability and, uh, continue to bring our, uh, our broadcast to you.
[06:39.750 --> 06:49.390]  And, you know, what's incredible to me is just going back, uh, you're mentioning the, um, uh, the history of it, the archiving, uh, we have had so much history in this place.
[06:49.570 --> 06:56.290]  Uh, you can just go back, go to, uh, www.2600.com, uh, slash off the hook.
[06:56.430 --> 07:01.850]  And you can hear every single one of our shows, except for the couple that we, we lost when one of our cars got broken into.
[07:02.210 --> 07:07.890]  Uh, but, uh, there's, I think every show, but like three of them are in there, uh, from 1988 onwards.
[07:08.250 --> 07:13.190]  And you will see a history, not only of the hacker world, not only of WBAI, but of the entire world.
[07:13.290 --> 07:14.470]  You'll hear how things have changed.
[07:14.590 --> 07:17.630]  You'll hear how technology has, has shifted over the years.
[07:17.730 --> 07:25.410]  It's been really impossible to talk about one specific attribute, you know, one part of technology without talking about the rest of the world.
[07:25.510 --> 07:26.610]  It's just the nature of it.
[07:26.950 --> 07:29.490]  It's, it's, uh, tech has, become a part of society.
[07:29.710 --> 07:31.850]  It's become a part of our everyday lives.
[07:31.970 --> 07:40.450]  And, uh, to go back and look at that, you see so many things that are changing or have changed and that went through that process over the years.
[07:40.450 --> 07:52.310]  And, and, uh, and here was this show documenting and, uh, and letting people call in and talk about it and on and on and, uh, keeping, um, everyone informed, uh, as these things progress over time.
[07:52.470 --> 07:53.450]  Yes, most definitely.
[07:54.030 --> 08:04.670]  Uh, so with all that in mind, we realize we have, uh, just an incredible resource here, uh, that we want to be able to preserve, uh, as, as, as long as possible.
[08:05.030 --> 08:14.130]  And despite what naysayers are constantly going on about, about the death of radio and everything becoming digital and, and nobody listened to the radio anymore.
[08:14.630 --> 08:15.330]  It's nonsense.
[08:15.590 --> 08:15.690]  Yeah.
[08:15.790 --> 08:29.190]  It might be true if, um, if you're part of a radio station that mimics what your iTunes, uh, or I, I, you know, uh, iPod does, or just things that aren't creative and imaginative or controversial.
[08:29.390 --> 08:32.290]  And WBAI has never fallen into that hole.
[08:32.310 --> 08:33.510]  We are always out there.
[08:33.510 --> 08:39.010]  We're unique on the radio and people stick around and listen to what we have to say many times.
[08:39.130 --> 08:41.270]  That's, that's the, the unique attribute.
[08:41.270 --> 08:57.550]  And, and I think the, the real magic of free form, free format community models that allow such freedom to, um, express yourself and, uh, not be under any kind of pressure to fit a certain model, uh, or another, right?
[08:57.650 --> 09:11.090]  I mean, it's, uh, that's, those are expectations that I think come out of, um, certain management or advertising that just doesn't exist here, uh, at WBAI and, and on the greater, uh, Pacifica network period.
[09:11.110 --> 09:21.970]  And, uh, and it is so magical here in New York too, uh, that anybody, anybody with a little radio, um, uh, you could build yourself a little radio, uh, and, and tune into this program.
[09:22.330 --> 09:40.510]  Um, not something you could do with something, uh, with a, with a stream, uh, necessarily, uh, maybe with some of those little computer kits, you could do it, but it really is special to, uh, maybe, you know, uh, any kind of old, uh, uh, vehicle or old classic radio would still get this,
[09:40.670 --> 09:41.370]  uh, frequency.
[09:41.370 --> 09:56.790]  And be able to bring modern perspectives, uh, informative, really, uh, current information about technology, uh, through this older medium and through this, this, uh, uh, older instruments perhaps, or any instrument.
[09:57.190 --> 09:58.830]  Um, that's really interesting.
[09:58.970 --> 10:07.770]  That's, that's when you, um, you have these things that work so well, uh, that stay relevant because it's bringing you current information about tech.
[10:07.990 --> 10:16.130]  And, and that's what we're here, uh, uh, to do is to discuss it and, uh, expose people to, uh, what's out there and, and, and how it's, uh, impacting everyone.
[10:16.250 --> 10:20.730]  If you have feedback for us, write to us, OTH at 2600.com off the hook.
[10:20.870 --> 10:23.090]  That's our, that's our address for this radio show.
[10:23.270 --> 10:37.190]  We're on for two hours tonight and we're going to be focusing on, uh, Corey Doctorer's work, uh, because he has just put out a new book, a new day's dystopian, um, uh, novels, which, uh, are so fascinating.
[10:37.570 --> 10:39.410]  I think this will be made into a film someday.
[10:39.490 --> 10:39.850]  I really do.
[10:40.030 --> 10:45.590]  Just came out late April and, uh, he's in the middle of a book tour and we have an interview we just taped with him.
[10:45.690 --> 10:53.950]  We'll be airing that in just a few minutes, but I wanted to, um, uh, go into something first from last summer when he keynoted the 11th Hope Conference here in New York City.
[10:54.350 --> 10:56.630]  Uh, that was a great, uh, a great keynote.
[10:56.710 --> 10:58.950]  I still hear, uh, positive feedback from that.
[10:59.110 --> 11:00.530]  It feels like it was yesterday.
[11:00.770 --> 11:01.170]  It does.
[11:01.330 --> 11:01.870]  It really does.
[11:02.110 --> 11:03.430]  Which means the, the...
[11:03.430 --> 11:03.750]  I forgot to say that.
[11:03.770 --> 11:05.910]  The hope, no, the hope that follows is going to feel like tomorrow.
[11:05.910 --> 11:06.710]  It is, actually.
[11:06.710 --> 11:07.810]  Because we're planning that now.
[11:07.970 --> 11:08.730]  In fact, uh, It's true.
[11:08.930 --> 11:13.890]  Thank you everybody who has been emailing suggestions for, uh, for what to call our 12th conference.
[11:14.370 --> 11:19.490]  Uh, and we're getting all kinds of amazing scientific mathematical, uh, ideas.
[11:19.750 --> 11:29.570]  Whatever we end up with is going to be well thought out because of all these, uh, uh, thought through and, um, um, interesting, intelligent suggestions we've, we've got.
[11:29.730 --> 11:32.950]  So it's not going to be a hastily named conference at all.
[11:32.950 --> 11:33.550]  Definitely not.
[11:33.690 --> 11:34.530]  A lot of thought will go into it.
[11:34.570 --> 11:35.470]  Maybe too much thought.
[11:35.470 --> 11:35.890]  I don't know.
[11:36.050 --> 11:36.170]  Yeah.
[11:36.230 --> 11:38.090]  There's, there's some pretty funny stuff, uh, really.
[11:38.650 --> 11:42.110]  Well, here, uh, here's a bit from Corey's, um, uh, talk.
[11:42.270 --> 11:45.890]  Uh, and in case you're not familiar, Corey Doctorow, uh, is a co-editor of Boing Boing.
[11:46.350 --> 11:57.190]  Uh, works with the EFF, is a prolific writer, both fiction and nonfiction, wrote the bestseller, uh, Little Brother a number of years ago and has just put out, uh, the brand new book Walk Away.
[11:57.770 --> 12:11.430]  And, uh, on top of all that, he's just a fascinating person to listen to and to talk to and, um, has such ideas, is so keyed in and, um, has, has an amazing amount of, um, of, of things to say.
[12:11.570 --> 12:12.910]  And, and so many of us do.
[12:13.210 --> 12:15.390]  It's just very inspirational, I think, to hear that.
[12:15.390 --> 12:16.930]  And this is incredible.
[12:17.070 --> 12:26.090]  The keynote, uh, the ability for him to capture really general things, but, but, uh, in a way that ties them in, in a really intelligent way.
[12:26.190 --> 12:32.890]  And, and it's, it's so incredible, um, the kind of fundamental and theory, uh, philosophical elements of this.
[12:33.010 --> 12:34.130]  It's just really interesting.
[12:34.290 --> 12:36.530]  He's, he's really speaking to a lot of the themes.
[12:36.630 --> 12:42.650]  And right now at this very moment, he's at the New York Public Library being interviewed by Edward Snowden for some kind of digital interface.
[12:42.850 --> 12:46.630]  Uh, but we are going to, and it's sold out, so don't bother trying to go there.
[12:47.330 --> 12:52.990]  Um, if, if, um, if, if you feel bummed out by that, uh, take consolation in knowing you'll be able to hear this.
[12:53.150 --> 12:58.230]  Uh, this is a, a brief excerpt from the 11th Hope Conference where Cory Doctorow gave, uh, the keynote.
[12:58.810 --> 13:06.310]  And, um, if you want to give a, a call and, um, and pledge to the radio station while this is playing, 516-620-3602.
[13:06.490 --> 13:11.370]  We'll be back after this clip to give you a detailed, uh, accounting of the things that we were offering tonight.
[13:11.650 --> 13:11.930]  Stay tuned.
[13:11.930 --> 13:14.410]  Or privacy denial, right?
[13:14.610 --> 13:23.690]  This idea that we can, like, collect lots of data and retain it indefinitely, indefinitely, and that it won't leak, and if it does leak, nothing bad will happen, right?
[13:23.710 --> 13:26.190]  The idea that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.
[13:26.350 --> 13:41.950]  That, um, it's the same thing for you to drive down a street with a car that has a license plate as it is for that car to have its license plate photographed every hundred yards, and then for those photographs to be subjected to OCR, and then for the records of all the places that you've been to be stored indefinitely,
[13:42.410 --> 13:42.470]  right?
[13:42.550 --> 13:48.670]  These are clearly not the same thing, and there are clearly harms that can arise from it, and yet we treat them as though we're equivalent, right?
[13:48.670 --> 13:53.450]  We say that everything that's not secret is, is therefore not private.
[13:53.670 --> 13:56.390]  But there's lots of things that aren't secret that are still private, right?
[13:56.450 --> 13:59.590]  Like, I know what you do when you go to the toilet, right?
[13:59.610 --> 14:04.330]  It's not a secret, and yet it takes a very special person not to want to close the door behind them.
[14:06.370 --> 14:10.650]  I know what your parents did to make you, right?
[14:11.310 --> 14:20.330]  And yet most of us, you know, it's cool if you don't want to do that in private, but it's not any of my business if you choose to do it in private.
[14:20.570 --> 14:25.630]  Private isn't that no one knows your business, it's that you get to choose who knows your business.
[14:26.250 --> 14:31.590]  And the problem with denial is that it begets nihilism.
[14:32.510 --> 14:37.650]  Denial matters because the things that we deny are real, right?
[14:37.770 --> 14:38.950]  Climate change is real.
[14:39.210 --> 14:40.490]  Cigarettes cause cancer.
[14:40.810 --> 14:42.630]  HIV is not vitamin deficiency.
[14:42.910 --> 14:46.390]  We can't make computers that run all the programs except for the ones that piss you off.
[14:46.630 --> 14:54.970]  And so the non-solutions that are demanded by denial don't solve the problem, and the problem festers and it gets worse.
[14:55.310 --> 15:06.190]  And because we're not solving the underlying problem, and yet we're pretending that we're solving the problem, our non-solution is actually worse than doing nothing at all, right?
[15:07.190 --> 15:15.470]  It's worse than doing nothing about cigarettes and cancer to think that smoking light cigarettes won't give you cancer, right?
[15:15.550 --> 15:25.110]  Because it takes people who think that they're mitigating their harms and puts them in exactly as much harm's way as they would have been if they'd gone on doing the same thing.
[15:25.230 --> 15:28.370]  It's like having someone whose car has faulty brakes.
[15:29.050 --> 15:35.170]  If they know their car's brakes are faulty, they can take steps to remediate that fault.
[15:35.350 --> 15:36.630]  They can drive more slowly.
[15:36.770 --> 15:38.230]  They can increase their following distance.
[15:38.450 --> 15:43.950]  But if you don't know that your car's brakes are faulty, the way that you find out is in the hardest way possible.
[15:44.230 --> 15:48.890]  So doing... telling people that their problem isn't a problem makes things worse.
[15:49.030 --> 15:52.230]  Worse than if they knew that it was a problem and did nothing at all about it.
[15:52.730 --> 16:01.650]  You know, people who think that AIDS is caused by vitamin deficiency have unprotected sex, even though they know that they have AIDS, right?
[16:01.730 --> 16:05.530]  And that's how you go from 1% to 25% infection rate.
[16:05.710 --> 16:09.450]  If you deny climate change, you build houses on floodplains.
[16:10.090 --> 16:15.190]  And then the floods come and it's worse than doing nothing at all.
[16:15.330 --> 16:26.650]  If you deny Turing completeness, then you go around and you tell artists sweet lies about the day that will come when the internet will somehow be worse at copying, right?
[16:26.730 --> 16:28.210]  That day is never going to come.
[16:28.410 --> 16:29.090]  This is it, right?
[16:29.250 --> 16:35.990]  July 22nd, 2016, remember this day, because it doesn't get harder from here on in, right?
[16:36.110 --> 16:42.210]  Your grandchildren and great-grandchildren will marvel at how hard it was to copy stuff in 2016.
[16:42.610 --> 16:57.690]  And we'll ask you, tell me again, grandma, tell me again, grandpa, about 2016 when you couldn't go into a CVS and buy six thumb drives for a dollar, each of which could hold all of the words ever spoken and all the paintings ever painted and all the songs ever sung and all the movies ever made.
[16:57.790 --> 17:07.350]  Tell me when, like, all of the retirees hadn't gone to free classes at the library to teach them the magic incantation, movie name space BitTorrent, right?
[17:09.890 --> 17:11.050]  So this is it, right?
[17:11.150 --> 17:12.490]  Like, it doesn't get harder to copy.
[17:12.630 --> 17:20.370]  And so we go around, we tell, we, because of Turing completeness denial, we tell artists that someday it will be harder to copy than it is now.
[17:20.510 --> 17:36.270]  And we tell them that the reason that they get so little money from Spotify is that their audience listens to music the wrong way, and not that the billions that streaming services hand over their labels is just intercepted and pocketed by those labels and none of the money is passed on to them.
[17:36.450 --> 17:45.830]  And we end up pointing artists at the people who love their work and not at the people who sit between them and the people who love their work, who takes the lion's share of the money.
[17:45.850 --> 17:49.130]  And it's easy to see how that won't solve anyone's problem.
[17:49.350 --> 18:07.490]  Or with crypto denial, we build out infrastructure and we build embedded systems, you know, forever day systems, systems that are never patched, that have vulnerabilities that were deliberately introduced at the time of manufacture in order to allow for lawful interception capability.
[18:08.150 --> 18:17.570]  And then we hope somehow that that won't be exploited by bad guys, whether those bad guys are officials or people who can successfully impersonate officials to the device.
[18:17.870 --> 18:44.770]  Or in the world of privacy denial, we encourage people and we fund them to found businesses predicated on the idea that if you just siphon off ever larger caches of people's personal information, as they move through time and space and the internet, that you can bet somehow you'll be able to monetize that in larger and larger sums before that information leaks and destroys the lives of those
[18:44.770 --> 18:45.110]  people.
[18:45.230 --> 18:50.870]  And that you can flip your company before those people realize what you've done and sue you for everything you have.
[18:51.070 --> 18:54.670]  And the problem with this is the old lady who swallowed the fly problem.
[18:54.950 --> 18:59.430]  That these non-solutions beget further non-solutions.
[18:59.630 --> 19:00.930]  The problem is still there.
[19:01.330 --> 19:03.590]  And your non-solution hasn't worked.
[19:03.890 --> 19:08.390]  And we can't admit that the solution hasn't worked because we're wrong.
[19:08.390 --> 19:11.050]  We say the problem hasn't worked because we haven't tried hard enough.
[19:11.250 --> 19:13.010]  Your light cigarettes aren't light enough.
[19:13.810 --> 19:20.230]  The reason your DRM is breaking is because we haven't made it enough of a felony to tell people about the problems with it.
[19:21.090 --> 19:26.890]  The reason that we have privacy problems is that our terms of service aren't thorough going enough.
[19:27.010 --> 19:34.270]  If only we make people admit, when they use the service, that there are no privacy problems, then there will be no privacy problems.
[19:34.370 --> 19:42.930]  By using this service, you agree that I'm allowed to come over to your house and punch your grandmother and wear your underwear and make long distance calls and eat all the food in your fridge, right?
[19:43.090 --> 19:50.790]  Like, if you make people agree to that, then the privacy problems will somehow go away because they will have agreed that there are no privacy problems.
[19:51.650 --> 19:53.250]  And so we spend more money.
[19:53.390 --> 19:54.910]  We take more elaborate steps.
[19:55.050 --> 20:00.410]  We subject people to more rigmarole to non-solve the real problem.
[20:00.990 --> 20:03.690]  And it starts to feel like too much trouble.
[20:03.910 --> 20:05.950]  It starts to feel like it's a fact of life.
[20:06.130 --> 20:10.290]  I mean, these cigarettes are going to kill me someday, but what the hell, it's too late to quit now.
[20:10.510 --> 20:13.030]  Or there's already so much carbon in the atmosphere.
[20:13.410 --> 20:17.110]  There's no point in not enjoying ourselves with the few years we have left.
[20:17.370 --> 20:22.850]  Or the entertainment industry is going to insist that DRM be baked into all of our technology.
[20:23.070 --> 20:25.390]  And we won't have a future without their content.
[20:25.710 --> 20:27.770]  So why not just go along with it?
[20:27.850 --> 20:31.730]  And maybe we can convince them not to make it as terrible as they did the last time around.
[20:31.930 --> 20:34.290]  Or my data is going to leak no matter what.
[20:34.490 --> 20:39.750]  So I might as well hang out on Facebook and get invited to a few parties before the information apocalypse hits.
[20:39.990 --> 20:40.450]  Right?
[20:40.810 --> 20:42.630]  So this creates nihilism.
[20:42.750 --> 20:44.130]  The idea that there's no future.
[20:44.590 --> 20:48.070]  But eventually, it becomes undeniable.
[20:48.390 --> 20:56.190]  Eventually, at a certain point, no matter how much denial and FUD there is, the problem becomes obvious to everyone.
[20:56.470 --> 20:59.190]  So like privacy, we're reaching that moment.
[20:59.450 --> 21:04.570]  The US government treats the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act as though violating terms of service this was a felony.
[21:05.150 --> 21:14.350]  And so privacy researchers have their hands tied when they discover flaws and systems that we rely on, that we give our data to, and they're not allowed to report it.
[21:14.430 --> 21:17.530]  And we can see the impact of that unfolding every day.
[21:17.670 --> 21:19.950]  And fewer and fewer people don't know about that.
[21:20.090 --> 21:21.690]  More and more people know about it every day.
[21:22.070 --> 21:36.530]  Or the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which subjects people under Section 1201 to criminal liability for investigating systems with DRM in order to determine what impact they have, and how much information they're gathering, and how that information is being used.
[21:37.030 --> 21:47.030]  And, you know, so long as we make it a crime to break DRM, so long as we make it a crime to tell people about the flaws in it, we make DRM into an attractive nuisance that spreads and spreads.
[21:47.410 --> 21:59.010]  Section 1201 of the DMCA doesn't stop people from breaking DRM, but it does give manufacturers the legal right to sue people who break DRM, even for legal reasons.
[21:59.370 --> 22:07.110]  So, you know, Philips put DRM in their light sockets and updated their firmware so it would only accept Philips light bulbs.
[22:07.330 --> 22:16.390]  And reconfiguring your light socket becomes a potential felony, even though switching light bulbs is not piracy and isn't against the law.
[22:16.630 --> 22:18.910]  What company would not take up the U.S.
[22:19.010 --> 22:21.070]  government on a sweet offer like that?
[22:21.370 --> 22:29.670]  Add a thin skin of DRM to any product, and we will give you the legal tool to sue anyone who removes it, even to do legal things.
[22:29.930 --> 22:32.290]  And so DRM metastasizes, right?
[22:32.390 --> 22:34.450]  DRM is now in every kind of device.
[22:34.610 --> 22:36.030]  Last year, the U.S.
[22:36.130 --> 22:41.830]  Copyright Office held hearings on the problems with the DMCA and with Section 1201 and with DRM.
[22:41.950 --> 23:01.390]  And they heard from researchers who were finding DRM and being frustrated in their ability to report on its flaws in tools as varied as pacemakers, thermostats, cars, medical diagnostic equipment, baby monitors, insulin pumps, cat litter boxes, smart light bulbs,
[23:01.590 --> 23:05.410]  and these little beauties that debuted at CES this year.
[23:05.530 --> 23:07.550]  That's the Internet of Things rectal thermometer.
[23:09.210 --> 23:13.250]  In 2016, we have DRM up the ass.
[23:18.310 --> 23:22.310]  That might be a good point to fade down here.
[23:22.650 --> 23:30.850]  That was Cory Doctorow speaking to us at the HOPE Conference back in July of 2016, keynoting.
[23:31.790 --> 23:32.350]  Fascinating.
[23:32.710 --> 23:38.470]  The DRM aspects alone, digital rights management, are so scary and need to be explained.
[23:38.650 --> 23:41.390]  And he explains it in a way that people can really grasp.
[23:41.510 --> 23:54.130]  Your grandmother could listen to this and get a lot out of it, even if she has no technical abilities whatsoever, as can just about anybody, really, who appreciates freedom and information and truth.
[23:54.990 --> 23:58.910]  So Cory Doctorow is the theme tonight, one of the themes tonight, actually.
[23:59.150 --> 24:03.190]  We have an interview with him coming up in just a few minutes that we taped just a little bit ago.
[24:03.510 --> 24:06.830]  But what we are offering now, and somebody already grabbed one of these.
[24:07.010 --> 24:08.290]  That's how good this premium is.
[24:08.510 --> 24:11.210]  Someone already grabbed it before we even mentioned it.
[24:11.350 --> 24:15.050]  Is this because I gave out the URL for online donations?
[24:15.470 --> 24:16.510]  It might have been.
[24:16.710 --> 24:17.510]  Maybe they found it that way.
[24:17.610 --> 24:18.450]  We did tell people.
[24:18.770 --> 24:22.170]  Congratulations, that the person who happens to be here in Brooklyn, by the way.
[24:22.310 --> 24:24.310]  Well, thanks for donating to the station.
[24:24.410 --> 24:25.270]  Thanks for that, yes.
[24:25.470 --> 24:26.270]  Keeping off the hook on the air.
[24:26.430 --> 24:26.830]  Absolutely.
[24:27.530 --> 24:38.910]  For a pledge of $75, only $75, you will get a brand new copy of Cory Doctorow's brand new book called Walk Away, which we'll be talking about in just a moment.
[24:39.690 --> 24:40.090]  Autographed.
[24:40.730 --> 24:41.330]  Autographed book.
[24:41.990 --> 24:46.830]  And you will also get a pocket multi-tool that comes with that.
[24:47.090 --> 24:47.430]  Wow.
[24:47.570 --> 24:47.730]  Yeah.
[24:47.870 --> 24:50.110]  You guys have worked with pocket multi-tools before, haven't you?
[24:50.210 --> 24:50.830]  No, that's cool.
[24:51.030 --> 24:51.210]  Yeah.
[24:51.670 --> 24:52.630]  Don't leave home without it.
[24:52.650 --> 24:53.170]  What does it do?
[24:53.230 --> 24:55.050]  It does all kinds of things.
[24:55.830 --> 24:57.530]  Do you want to describe one?
[24:57.670 --> 25:08.410]  Well, a pocket multi-tool generally is a little folding tool that you can carry around with you that has all sorts of useful gadgets in it, maybe screwdrivers, blades, that thing to get stones out of horses' hooves or whatever.
[25:08.430 --> 25:09.310]  It depends on the multi-tool.
[25:09.390 --> 25:15.230]  They all have different things in them, but I think one that comes with a Cory Doctorow book is going to be a damn useful one.
[25:15.310 --> 25:15.950]  Yes, absolutely.
[25:16.210 --> 25:24.250]  I think it implies maybe some pliers too, because a Swiss Army knife would be just the bare minimum, you know, one of each type of thing, but multi-tools makes sense.
[25:24.350 --> 25:24.750]  You have options.
[25:24.830 --> 25:25.670]  That implies pliers, yes.
[25:25.670 --> 25:35.530]  Yeah, you get a little maybe something to grip things if you're working with, I don't know, tying fly fishing lures, whatever people do.
[25:35.530 --> 25:43.430]  If you read the book, you'll see the tie-in, how being able to take things apart is an important skill.
[25:43.790 --> 25:46.050]  And being able to put things together is another important skill.
[25:46.410 --> 25:57.410]  And it's kind of the theme of what we're always going through here as hackers, as people who are looking at society either falling apart or becoming monolithic and oppressive.
[25:58.650 --> 26:05.390]  The people known as the walkaways, which you'll learn about in the book walk away, they are the key.
[26:05.690 --> 26:08.310]  They are really vitally important.
[26:08.890 --> 26:15.910]  A copy of this book just released, autographed by Cory Doctorow with a pocket multi-tool is yours for a pledge of $75.
[26:16.530 --> 26:23.250]  516-620-3602 is the phone number to call, 516-620-3602.
[26:23.390 --> 26:28.490]  You can also grab a copy by going to give to WBAI.org.
[26:28.650 --> 26:31.730]  But you better hurry because we only have a limited number of these.
[26:32.030 --> 26:35.750]  And we are witnessing them starting to disappear.
[26:36.350 --> 26:41.110]  So the brand new Cory Doctorow book, walk away, for a pledge of $75.
[26:41.870 --> 26:45.950]  It's autographed, has a pocket multi-tool included.
[26:46.230 --> 26:46.810]  That's cool.
[26:46.970 --> 26:47.690]  That's just so neat.
[26:47.730 --> 26:48.810]  I didn't realize that.
[26:48.810 --> 26:49.110]  Yeah.
[26:50.170 --> 26:58.910]  It's a multi-generation science fiction thriller about the wrenching changes for the next hundred years and the very human people who will live their consequences.
[26:59.150 --> 27:00.370]  That's one review.
[27:00.850 --> 27:01.930]  There are a number of them.
[27:01.970 --> 27:03.130]  You just have to look around.
[27:03.130 --> 27:05.510]  You'll see how this book is being received so far.
[27:06.330 --> 27:14.250]  Cory Doctorow has, of course, written so many amazing things over the years and is one of the best authors out there as far as I'm concerned.
[27:14.850 --> 27:17.730]  So it's really an honor to be a part of this.
[27:17.730 --> 27:22.210]  I started reading a copy of this novel and it certainly is a novel.
[27:22.450 --> 27:28.210]  You're thrust very quickly into what feels a little bit different than your everyday world.
[27:28.330 --> 27:40.310]  Maybe in the not too distant future, but it is definitely an everyday world and set of characters that is unusual, I'd say, when you first start out.
[27:40.510 --> 27:50.890]  But I think the rest of it, I'm sure, is as exciting and interesting as you continue and finish through that story.
[27:51.310 --> 27:58.350]  It's so cool, though, the way he's written it and just the interesting use of language and storytelling.
[27:58.770 --> 27:58.930]  Uh-huh.
[27:59.470 --> 28:02.050]  516-620-3602.
[28:02.270 --> 28:20.470]  Yeah, I've long been a fan of Cory Doctorow's work and he is very good at that sort of just not too distant future, maybe slightly dystopic or slightly weird or just putting some kind of weird spotlight on something that is going on in the real world today and using that to tell a really interesting story with fascinating characters.
[28:20.830 --> 28:23.170]  And I'm sure this one is no different.
[28:23.170 --> 28:26.130]  I'm excited to get a hold of a copy and start reading it.
[28:26.190 --> 28:32.430]  A real grasp of the language, too, the evolving language, new ways of expressing yourself, new ideas.
[28:32.690 --> 28:35.310]  And we'll hear him talk about this in just a moment.
[28:36.150 --> 28:38.070]  It's the magic of writing.
[28:38.230 --> 28:44.470]  It's the magic of paying attention to technology and being able to grasp certain things and being able to explain them.
[28:44.570 --> 28:45.290]  That's the thing.
[28:45.450 --> 28:50.730]  A lot of people can grasp and understand, but are they willing to share and explain?
[28:51.050 --> 28:51.730]  It takes patience.
[28:51.730 --> 28:52.730]  It takes skill.
[28:53.490 --> 28:55.690]  And Cory is able to do this.
[28:55.770 --> 28:59.910]  And that's why he's given so many interesting talks over the years.
[29:00.010 --> 29:12.710]  It projects people's impressions of technology and projects the imagination a bit into the future, just a little bit further than maybe what might be talked about in society today.
[29:13.090 --> 29:25.330]  But those are the great ways that, and I think he'll go into this, that this type of writing really feeds the mind and gives you perspective on what's going on now and the implications.
[29:25.330 --> 29:29.330]  So give a call to 516-620-3602.
[29:29.490 --> 29:31.710]  Ask for the Cory Doctorow autographed book.
[29:31.890 --> 29:33.090]  That's what you ask for.
[29:33.450 --> 29:42.510]  And you will receive, for a pledge of $75, the brand new book autographed by Cory himself, and a pocket multi-tool that comes along with that just for fun.
[29:43.110 --> 29:46.330]  516-620-3602.
[29:46.430 --> 29:51.910]  What we're going to do now is we're going to cut over to the interview we just did with Cory Doctorow earlier today.
[29:51.910 --> 29:58.630]  And you will hear this book talked about, as well as a couple of other things going on today.
[29:59.130 --> 30:03.410]  Again, the phone number, 516-620-3602.
[30:07.350 --> 30:15.780]  We're on today with Cory Doctorow, a renowned author and activist and so many things.
[30:15.900 --> 30:21.000]  Cory, I've theorized that there are many of you, and that's the only possible way you can get done all the things that you do.
[30:21.000 --> 30:24.960]  Well, you see, you've neglected the possibility that I have no social life.
[30:25.120 --> 30:26.720]  Okay, all right, that's fair enough.
[30:27.040 --> 30:29.570]  But still, I don't know how you find the time.
[30:29.570 --> 30:30.550]  You are so prolific.
[30:30.940 --> 30:33.020]  You're traveling around the world now.
[30:33.620 --> 30:36.180]  You've just put out a book called Walk Away.
[30:36.180 --> 30:37.260]  We're going to talk about that.
[30:37.810 --> 30:39.240]  You work with the EFF.
[30:40.940 --> 30:47.400]  For those who are just trying to manage their own time, how do you do it?
[30:48.300 --> 30:51.700]  Well, I don't really do a lot of socializing.
[30:52.070 --> 30:55.790]  And, you know, when my daughter was born, I got really rigorous about my prioritization.
[30:56.160 --> 31:06.260]  You know, I realized that I wanted to be a dad, and I wanted to write books, and that I would have to, you know, choose to not do a lot of other things if I was going to do those things.
[31:06.960 --> 31:08.700]  And I don't watch a lot of television.
[31:09.280 --> 31:10.280]  In fact, I don't watch any.
[31:10.520 --> 31:11.640]  I don't really go to the movies.
[31:12.120 --> 31:17.090]  I just have these things that I do, and I do them with every second that I got.
[31:17.280 --> 31:24.070]  So what I tend to do is if, like, I'm doing a task, and I get to the point where I'm totally burned out on it, I switch to the next task.
[31:24.570 --> 31:29.550]  And, you know, I think, if anything, that the skill to cultivate is the ability to switch tasks quickly.
[31:29.810 --> 31:33.200]  You know, with writing, it's about writing a little bit every day.
[31:33.350 --> 31:35.050]  You know, a page, 250 words.
[31:35.200 --> 31:36.240]  That's a novel a year.
[31:36.660 --> 31:38.780]  And there are a few tricks for doing it.
[31:38.780 --> 31:45.780]  One is to gut it out during the period in which it's awkward until it becomes a habit, because habits are things you get for free.
[31:45.880 --> 31:48.790]  And then you can do it any time.
[31:49.280 --> 32:01.500]  And one is to leave off mid-sentence when you're working so that you can sit down and start working the next day and just start writing a couple of words without having to be creative, because you know how that sentence ends.
[32:02.020 --> 32:18.850]  And one is to recognize that although there are days when the work feels like it's going well and days when the work feels like it's going badly, that that is way more reflective of your own mental state of, you know, your blood sugar and your endocrinology and,
[32:18.980 --> 32:25.480]  you know, with the extent to which you're feeling bummed out about your interpersonal relationships than it does with the words.
[32:25.550 --> 32:43.160]  And so if you can write on the days when the words feel badly uh, and, and feel like they're, you know, feel like you're, you're screwing up, uh, with the understanding that your emotional feeling that you're writing crappy books, uh, is, is really just an illusion of your dumb brain.
[32:43.160 --> 32:54.760]  And that later on a year from now, you won't be able to tell which words are which, the good words, the bad words, and you'll just take out the words that don't seem great, uh, regardless of which day you wrote them on, then you can kind of overcome a lot of that.
[32:55.570 --> 32:55.980]  Wow.
[32:56.420 --> 33:06.660]  Well, Corey, since everything in the world seems to be scheduled for Wednesday at 7 p.m., which is when our show is on, right now you're appearing at the New York Public Library with, I believe, Edward Snowden.
[33:06.760 --> 33:07.960]  Can you tell us something about that event?
[33:08.420 --> 33:09.070]  That's correct.
[33:09.290 --> 33:09.400]  Yeah.
[33:09.570 --> 33:12.740]  So, Snowden, uh, gave my new novel, Walk Away, a blurb.
[33:12.830 --> 33:14.700]  It was the first blurb he ever gave a book.
[33:15.350 --> 33:17.570]  Uh, Walk Away is a science fiction novel.
[33:17.680 --> 33:19.570]  I call it an optimistic disaster novel.
[33:19.810 --> 33:22.460]  Uh, it's my first novel for adults since 2009.
[33:22.660 --> 33:30.540]  And it's about, um, uh, crisis that, uh, in which there's very little need for most of us.
[33:30.740 --> 33:39.120]  You know, the, uh, robots have taken all the jobs, but there's lots of people kicking around who would still like to, to have a reason to exist in the world.
[33:39.240 --> 33:42.050]  And they realize that they are the reason to exist in the world.
[33:42.160 --> 33:45.180]  And if the world has decided that it doesn't need them, then they should go somewhere else.
[33:45.280 --> 33:50.780]  And so they walk away from society and they found this kind of bohemian autonomous zone.
[33:50.780 --> 34:05.090]  You know, they take old brownfield sites and they, uh, they use the waste stream of post-industrial civilization to build luxury hotels that anyone can come and stay in for free and that aren't owned or, or run by anyone that kind of run themselves.
[34:05.500 --> 34:13.420]  And if anyone turns up and says, hey, that's my plot of dirt, my garbage you're, you're squatting on, they just walk away again and do it again because there's no shortage of this.
[34:13.960 --> 34:22.160]  And, um, and Snowden liked this novel of people being kind to each other in times of crisis of people following their consciences.
[34:22.940 --> 34:29.420]  And so when, uh, I was booking out the tour, the New York Public Library asked me if I would like to come do an onstage event.
[34:29.480 --> 34:30.180]  And I said, of course.
[34:30.500 --> 34:35.660]  And they asked me for a short list of people I'd like to be interviewed by or in discussion with.
[34:35.880 --> 34:39.520]  And Snowden was at the top of my list and they asked him and lo and behold, he said yes.
[34:40.160 --> 34:47.640]  Yeah, we felt the same way when he said yes to us, uh, keynoting one of our conferences, as, as we're honored to have you keynote our last conference as well.
[34:47.840 --> 34:59.520]  Uh, in fact, in that conference, um, during, uh, your address, you talked about, um, a couple of rules, uh, that you believe should be applied to, um, uh, to technology.
[35:00.020 --> 35:04.500]  Uh, one, that, um, a computer should be designed to always obey their owners.
[35:04.960 --> 35:14.070]  And two, that any true facts about computer security should always be legal to discuss, uh, do you think that's expanded at all since then?
[35:14.280 --> 35:15.460]  Or, or do you have any revisions?
[35:16.160 --> 35:24.320]  No, you know, I, I think that those are two really good principles for a kind of graceful failure mode for technology.
[35:24.580 --> 35:40.480]  Like, uh, making it, making it legal to tell people when a computer is broken doesn't tell you how to make a computer that isn't broken, but at least it, it, it says that if you have an idea for making a computer that's not broken, you'll find out pretty sure pretty quickly if your idea is wrong.
[35:40.820 --> 35:57.060]  And so, uh, I, I think that these principles of, of graceful failure of, of what engineers call like a negative feedback system, you know, something that damps out of control systems that, that, um, make sure that systems are, are behaving as they're intended to,
[35:57.580 --> 36:07.420]  that, that is, um, it's actually more important really than, than figuring out how to make systems work well, because the circumstances under which they work well will change, right?
[36:07.500 --> 36:12.620]  Even a, a system that's finely tuned for the world as it is will need to be retuned for the world as it will become.
[36:13.080 --> 36:23.000]  And so what's really important is that we aren't impeded from finding out when the system no longer works as intended and from changing it so that it can work again.
[36:24.340 --> 36:24.780]  Interesting.
[36:25.560 --> 36:37.960]  Um, now in your work with Boing Boing, um, you often, uh, reveal things that I imagine some people might consider to be inconvenient truths as far as, uh, security or embarrassing corporations.
[36:37.960 --> 36:39.940]  Do you ever get, uh, pushback for that kind of thing?
[36:40.600 --> 36:50.040]  Well, every now and again, and we've been sued a couple of times, um, uh, we were hilariously sued by a company called MagicJack that you'll know if you watch a lot of late night TV.
[36:50.280 --> 36:50.420]  Uh-huh.
[36:50.700 --> 37:05.500]  Uh, they make a, a gizmo that plugs into your USB port and then has an RJ11 and, uh, you plug your, your old corded phone into it and it, um, bridges voice over IP to, uh, an old corded phone.
[37:05.800 --> 37:15.600]  And they had this hilariously terrible license agreement that said, among other things, that, like, they had the right to listen to your phone calls to figure out how to advertise to you.
[37:16.080 --> 37:21.320]  And we pointed this out and they sued us and we were like, that is a ridiculous lawsuit because we told the truth.
[37:21.460 --> 37:24.160]  And they said, oh, you're still libeled us because you were mean when you did it.
[37:24.780 --> 37:28.440]  And, um, they sent us in California, which has, uh, an anti-slap statute.
[37:28.820 --> 37:40.220]  So our insurers helped us defend it and they ended up spending $60,000 paying off our lawyers for the initial, um, uh, for the initial, uh, round of, of fees and so on.
[37:40.280 --> 37:41.800]  And we completely won.
[37:41.960 --> 37:43.040]  I mean, we just buried them.
[37:43.180 --> 37:51.020]  And then we made a big deal out of it because, you know, as, as Camus said, sometimes you have to, uh, execute an admiral to encourage the others.
[37:51.020 --> 37:59.960]  You know, we feel like, uh, the more heads we have on pikes, uh, around our, uh, around our, our castle here, the fewer barbarians will charge our gates.
[38:00.820 --> 38:01.220]  Wow.
[38:01.300 --> 38:02.740]  That's a, that's quite a, an image.
[38:02.880 --> 38:06.420]  And I imagine there'll be a lot of heads on pikes in the, in the years ahead.
[38:06.640 --> 38:14.020]  Uh, do you foresee more of this kind of thing, especially with Trump talking about, uh, changing the first amendment to make it easier to sue the media?
[38:15.420 --> 38:15.820]  Yeah.
[38:15.980 --> 38:29.000]  Well, I mean, I think, uh, uh, an important lesson there is that, uh, Trump changing the first amendment to make it easier to, to change the media as improbable as that is, because remember, Trump has no idea how the law works or how government works.
[38:29.100 --> 38:29.200]  Right.
[38:29.360 --> 38:33.440]  So he says a lot of crap that just doesn't, you know, it doesn't actually stick to the wall.
[38:33.580 --> 38:41.700]  But, but even if he could manage it, it's not just going to be used by, by, uh, thin-skinned politicians or even politicians with legitimate grievances.
[38:41.960 --> 38:48.720]  It's going to be used by like dumb ass, you know, thin-skinned corporations that are pissed off that you made fun of their license agreement.
[38:48.960 --> 39:05.680]  And, you know, this is the thing we saw in the UK before libel reform, with that libel, you know, easy, easily hurdled libel laws become a tool for silencing the press, who, uh, are doing the very legitimate business of discussing things that people have done that,
[39:05.820 --> 39:10.640]  um, other people have a right to know about, but which they'd rather not have widely disclosed.
[39:11.300 --> 39:14.080]  I'd like to, uh, look at a couple of quotes from the book.
[39:14.380 --> 39:16.500]  Um, this one is one of my favorites, actually.
[39:17.080 --> 39:19.820]  Uh, anything, it's from a, a character named Ice Weasel.
[39:20.020 --> 39:24.220]  Anything invented before you were 18 was there all along.
[39:24.580 --> 39:28.120]  Anything invented before you're 30 is exciting and will change the world forever.
[39:28.460 --> 39:32.380]  Anything invented after that is an abomination and should be banned.
[39:32.640 --> 39:36.400]  You don't remember what life was like 20 years ago before walkaways.
[39:36.660 --> 39:38.980]  You don't understand how different things are.
[39:39.180 --> 39:41.340]  So you think things don't change that much.
[39:41.440 --> 39:47.100]  That really nails it because people seem to think it's always been the way it is.
[39:47.600 --> 39:50.820]  And, um, it's not things change very quickly.
[39:51.000 --> 39:55.480]  Things change very dramatically, but, uh, it's kind of, it's kind of tricky how it happens.
[39:55.580 --> 40:01.260]  And I think a lot of people miss that, but that's, um, that's, that's just a quote that really kind of stuck with me.
[40:01.420 --> 40:02.220]  Well, thank you.
[40:02.300 --> 40:10.680]  You know, I, I stole most of that quote from Douglas Adams, who, who was a very keen observer of technology, all that business about 18 and 30 and so on.
[40:10.860 --> 40:18.800]  Um, but, uh, the idea that like we don't, that all laws are local and no law knows how local it is.
[40:18.960 --> 40:27.000]  That's one of science fiction's like central theses is that a lot of the things we think of as eternal verities are just local mythologies.
[40:27.540 --> 40:42.860]  And one of the, the games that science fiction plays is, is changing that stuff up and, and making you ask yourself, is this something that is inevitable or is it just something that's, that's extremely local and we don't know, uh, we don't realize it because we're,
[40:42.860 --> 40:44.340]  we're so surrounded by it.
[40:44.460 --> 40:52.440]  And, you know, one of the ways that science fiction can do that, that I think is really exciting is that often cleaves the technology from its social and economic context.
[40:52.660 --> 41:06.260]  So, you know, steampunk is like, what if we could have the productivity and progress that we got once we had the industrial revolution in the factory, but we could do it from individual workshops where you had no boss telling you how to work.
[41:06.520 --> 41:14.460]  That's a, you know, it's a really exciting thought experiment to think about that different economic arrangement that still produces the same technical dividend.
[41:14.840 --> 41:27.800]  Because I think we tend to think of the, the, you know, the, the assembly line being inseparable from, from the Henry Fords of the world of, of, of, you know, uh, American progress being inseparable from American politics.
[41:28.160 --> 41:32.640]  And, you know, sometimes that's not true in ways that are, that's really dangerous and scary.
[41:32.780 --> 41:44.600]  You know, I think before Singapore, a lot of people thought that, um, liberal markets and liberal democracies always came together, that you could have a, uh, uh, you know, a fairly vigorous open market.
[41:44.980 --> 41:51.180]  Um, but as soon as you did, people would use that freedom to also establish an open marketplace of ideas.
[41:51.880 --> 42:01.000]  And Singapore showed that you could have a completely totalitarian marketplace of ideas and still have like shopping streets with, um, you know, fortune 100 brands on them.
[42:01.180 --> 42:14.800]  And I, I think that that, you know, the more you think about that, the more it becomes a, something of a nail in, in the coffin of capitalism, because if, if, uh, so-called economic freedom doesn't produce the freedom that really matters, the freedom of speech and assembly and,
[42:14.840 --> 42:18.340]  and ideas, then, um, it really is quite a shock.
[42:18.700 --> 42:21.280]  Can you tell us what the word walk away means?
[42:22.200 --> 42:41.840]  Well, um, you know, the walkaways are people who have come to believe that, um, technology lets them treat, uh, all of the things of the world as being largely fungible or interchangeable, that they don't really care which party they get to, so long as there's a great party when they get there.
[42:42.460 --> 42:55.980]  And because networks let them find all the people who they might make a great party with, no matter where they, they are, let them find all the things that they can use to make, uh, uh, an amazing project out of, that they don't really care what it's running on.
[42:56.060 --> 42:58.000]  It's, it's, you know, it's a bit like the cloud, right?
[42:58.060 --> 43:01.340]  You don't care what the underlying metal is, so long as your code executes.
[43:01.840 --> 43:15.640]  And so walkaways, you know, in the same way that once you've got your, your, uh, service containerized, uh, and running in the cloud, it doesn't matter if your cloud provider turns out to be flaky or triples the rates, because 10 seconds later you're up and running somewhere else.
[43:16.080 --> 43:21.540]  Walkaways realize it doesn't matter which patch of dirt they're on or which people they're doing a project with.
[43:21.540 --> 43:32.400]  If it turns out that those people aren't as much fun as they thought they were, or that they're, you know, gargantuan jerks, they can just do exactly the same thing, but with better people 100 yards down the road.
[43:32.580 --> 43:33.960]  And this is a real freedom.
[43:34.220 --> 43:37.920]  It's a very, you know, Janis Joplin-ish freedom, because you've got nothing left to lose.
[43:38.440 --> 43:39.620]  That's, that's fascinating.
[43:39.760 --> 43:49.000]  So taking the mentality of, of cloud computing and applying that to the social, uh, structure, uh, I, I'd never thought of anything quite like that before.
[43:49.740 --> 43:50.220]  Yeah.
[43:50.340 --> 44:02.300]  Well, again, you know, science fiction is like this great literature for, um, playing with metaphors and saying, what if this thing that is out here in the world that we treat as a metaphor were expanded into other domains.
[44:02.600 --> 44:10.360]  So, you know, I, I wrote my first novel was about what if the metaphor of slash dog karma was actually the way that we organized our affairs.
[44:10.360 --> 44:12.860]  And it certainly had some good points and some bad points.
[44:13.260 --> 44:24.360]  Um, and then, you know, one of the things that I like to do when I write science fiction is to take things the opposite trick, which take things that we think of as metaphors and, and treat them really re with a lot of reality.
[44:24.700 --> 44:35.500]  So, you know, with little brother, I said, let's try writing a techno thriller where the computers aren't metaphors, but the computers are actually computers because most techno thrillers, the computers don't act like computers.
[44:35.500 --> 44:38.020]  They do whatever it is the plot needs them to do.
[44:38.140 --> 44:41.900]  If they need to do something impossible in order to advance the plot, they do it.
[44:42.040 --> 44:48.680]  If they need to be incapable of doing something they do all the time, uh, they do that too, just to make the plot go along.
[44:48.820 --> 44:54.320]  But if you said that constraints and The capabilities of computers were actually where all the dramatic tension would come from.
[44:54.560 --> 44:56.080]  What kind of story would you tell?
[44:56.400 --> 45:05.860]  The answer turns out to be one that really resonates with people, that feels real, in a way that other techno-thrillers just feel more like fantasy than like science fiction.
[45:06.700 --> 45:13.620]  And, you know, Walk Away is set in a world in which, where crises occur, instead of people turning on each other, they rise to the occasion.
[45:13.920 --> 45:23.180]  And, you know, Pulp Fiction, which science fiction is, I'm very proud to write Pulp Fiction, Pulp Fiction has really two big plotting tactics.
[45:23.420 --> 45:26.020]  One is man-versus-man, and one is man-versus-nature.
[45:26.340 --> 45:35.340]  And plot writers like to get two-for-one by imagining man-versus-man-versus-nature, where, like, the earthquake knocks down your building and then your neighbors come over and eat you.
[45:35.720 --> 45:43.060]  And that is not a particularly realistic portrayal of a disaster, really, what we know.
[45:43.200 --> 46:00.160]  And New Yorkers who've lived through, you know, the blackouts recently, or 9-11, know that in times of crisis, people open their hearts and open their arms and really turn to one another and rise to the occasion in this amazing, heartening way that gives you faith in the human race.
[46:00.160 --> 46:19.080]  And so I thought, what if the drama could come not from people turning into your enemies, but people wanting the same thing as you, people being of good will, but not agreeing with you on how to get there, on having irreconcilable disagreements about how to fix the things that are broken.
[46:19.080 --> 46:31.680]  And, you know, anyone who's ever had a difficult Christmas dinner knows that having agreements with people you like and respect is way more traumatic than having disagreements with people you think are jerks.
[46:32.240 --> 46:33.060]  Very true.
[46:33.320 --> 46:33.820]  Very true.
[46:33.860 --> 46:39.600]  And I think we're seeing a lot of that today, where people are learning how to disagree and how to have a dialogue.
[46:39.600 --> 46:45.640]  How much of Walkaway would you say was inspired by what's been going on in the actual world?
[46:46.180 --> 46:50.860]  Well, you know, you have to remember that Walkaway's final draft predates the election season.
[46:51.080 --> 46:54.920]  So it wasn't really inspired by the election, if anything else.
[46:54.920 --> 47:12.860]  But, you know, all of the current crisis in American politics and in British politics, it was a crisis in Turkish politics and in Polish politics and in Hungarian politics and in Philippines politics for a long time before it was a crisis in all these other countries' politics.
[47:12.860 --> 47:16.680]  And it's the same force rippling out through the world.
[47:17.100 --> 47:40.720]  So Walkaway is definitely a response to this, to this idea that we've reached a crisis in our consensus about whether or not the market system that produced, on the one hand, these incredible productivity gains, where, you know, our cars and our buildings and our clothes and our phones have orders of magnitude less labor and energy and materials embodied in them and are,
[47:40.720 --> 48:05.120]  you know, miraculous in that regard, but in which the economic arrangements that they're produced under also end up producing, you know, totally unsustainable pollution, really destabilizing wealth disparity and so on, and trying to figure out how to salvage that and which parts of it are salvageable and trying to understand whether we can have the productivity gains and the other things that we
[48:05.120 --> 48:11.080]  like without having the things that are messing things up, especially when we don't always agree on that, right?
[48:11.200 --> 48:18.540]  When some people think that the wealth disparity is a feature and not a bug, they tend to be the people at the top of the wealth disparity ladder, but not always.
[48:18.840 --> 48:31.720]  You know, as John Steinbeck wrote, Americans are a nation of temporarily embarrassed millionaires, people who think that someday they'll be rich too, something that is becoming less and less likely with every passing day.
[48:31.960 --> 48:52.760]  And so, you know, that political crisis is one that was very much in my mind when I wrote Walk Away, as was the fact that we are stabilizing our world, which has been made so unstable by this crisis, by rolling out mass surveillance, using the technology that's giving us all these new superpowers to organize and to operate without hierarchies,
[48:52.900 --> 48:57.380]  to spy on us, to keep us from organizing, and keep us obedient to those hierarchies.
[48:57.860 --> 49:14.300]  Well, Corey, I know you have places to be and all kinds of events awaiting you, but I just wanted to ask, since you are so incredibly involved and active in so many things, something must have inspired you over the years.
[49:14.300 --> 49:18.340]  Can you reveal what motivates you, maybe how others can go down a similar path?
[49:19.600 --> 49:21.740]  Well, you know, gosh, it's hard to say.
[49:21.820 --> 49:31.780]  I mean, I was always involved in activist politics and I was blessed with activist parents, but the way I got involved, I guess, in technology was that I found that technology was very pleasing to me.
[49:31.960 --> 49:35.840]  You know, like I think a lot of your listeners, using computers felt right.
[49:36.240 --> 49:49.180]  And I was, as I dreamed about all the things we could do with computers, I started to think about all the things that we shouldn't and started to wonder how we could create the moral center that would allow us to choose the right one from the wrong.
[49:49.440 --> 49:54.920]  And I followed the examples of people who thought about how we could use computers as tools of liberation.
[49:54.920 --> 50:03.280]  So, you know, reading 2600 Magazine and then the Hacker Crackdown and learning about EFF, all of those things really inspired me.
[50:04.140 --> 50:06.500]  Wow, that's amazing to hear.
[50:07.040 --> 50:11.500]  And I know you inspire so many other people as well, just in your writing style.
[50:11.820 --> 50:17.060]  I just want to read one quote that somebody actually on Amazon was complaining about, but I thought was amazing.
[50:17.060 --> 50:18.740]  It's your use of the language.
[50:19.360 --> 50:26.900]  A pot of mercs and an infotech goon pwned everything using some zero-day they bought from scumbag default infowar researchers.
[50:26.900 --> 50:30.760]  They took over the drone fleet, and while we dewormed it, seized the mechas.
[50:31.320 --> 50:32.460]  I mean, to me, that's poetry.
[50:32.640 --> 50:41.260]  I guess the person on Amazon didn't know what you were talking about, but you really immerse yourself in the culture and the lingo and you create language yourself.
[50:41.980 --> 50:42.980]  Yeah, sure.
[50:43.200 --> 50:44.680]  And, you know, most of that stuff is pretty...
[50:44.680 --> 50:50.300]  It's funny, I know that Amazon review because I have committed the cardinal sin of authorship and read my Amazon reviews this morning.
[50:50.660 --> 51:02.360]  And it's funny because there are two reviews in a row, one of which... or two responses to that quote, one of which says, oh, yeah, all that jargon that Dr. O uses, it's so out of date.
[51:02.380 --> 51:05.280]  And the other one says, I wish he wouldn't use this jargon.
[51:05.420 --> 51:07.620]  It's so new to me, I don't know how to make sense of it.
[51:07.860 --> 51:10.020]  And I think that's maybe my sweet spot.
[51:10.020 --> 51:10.960]  Wow.
[51:11.160 --> 51:12.140]  One final question, Corey.
[51:12.380 --> 51:17.760]  You write about dystopian scenarios and societies, but deep down, are you optimistic?
[51:18.280 --> 51:24.080]  Yeah, I call this an optimistic disaster novel because, you know, a dystopia is not a society where things fall apart.
[51:24.080 --> 51:25.220]  That's just entropy.
[51:25.540 --> 51:28.860]  A dystopia is that when things fall apart, we turn on each other.
[51:29.240 --> 51:33.960]  You know, no matter how well-organized your system is, it's subject to exogenous shocks.
[51:34.120 --> 51:37.060]  You know, that things are only optimized for their external circumstances.
[51:37.060 --> 51:40.020]  This is why software is a process and not a product, right?
[51:40.060 --> 51:44.620]  You can debug your code and make it work perfectly and not have any security vulnerabilities.
[51:45.000 --> 51:51.660]  But when it changes its context, all of a sudden things that weren't security vulnerabilities become security vulnerabilities.
[51:51.960 --> 51:58.140]  Things that were functional become dysfunctional, not because the code has changed, but because the systems it interacts with have changed.
[51:58.140 --> 52:01.840]  And dystopianism is not the idea that we can't perfect code.
[52:02.540 --> 52:07.620]  Dystopianism is the idea that when the code goes wrong, we will have no means of putting it right again.
[52:08.820 --> 52:12.940]  Corey Doctor, I want to thank you so much for joining us tonight and best of luck with your tour.
[52:13.300 --> 52:16.400]  Hopefully we'll see you next time you're in New York, which I believe is next month as well.
[52:16.820 --> 52:18.280]  Yeah, I'll be back for BookCon.
[52:18.620 --> 52:18.980]  Awesome.
[52:19.540 --> 52:19.760]  All right.
[52:20.360 --> 52:21.060]  Great talking to you.
[52:21.220 --> 52:21.780]  Thanks, Emmanuel.
[52:21.980 --> 52:22.260]  Take care.
[52:22.660 --> 52:23.140]  Talk to you later.
[52:24.280 --> 52:28.340]  And that was Corey Doctor earlier today, talking with us here at Off The Hook.
[52:28.480 --> 52:28.620]  Wow.
[52:28.800 --> 52:31.460]  You can see that conversation could have gone on for hours.
[52:31.800 --> 52:33.780]  The guy is just so fascinating to talk to.
[52:33.880 --> 52:35.860]  So many ideas and perspectives.
[52:36.900 --> 52:41.080]  Corey is on a book tour for his brand new novel, Walk Away.
[52:41.540 --> 52:56.180]  And you can get your very own copy of that book, autographed by Corey, and including, for your enjoyment and mischief, a pocket multi-tool for a pledge of $75 to WBAI.
[52:56.380 --> 53:02.320]  And the station that talks about this kind of thing, that has these kinds of conversations and features.
[53:02.700 --> 53:07.460]  So it's a win-win for everybody, because you'll be getting an amazing book.
[53:07.560 --> 53:08.400]  It really is fascinating.
[53:08.540 --> 53:19.840]  500 pages of really enlightening, dystopian future possibilities, and just characters that you'll fall in love with.
[53:20.460 --> 53:24.060]  Just give us a call, 516-620-3602.
[53:24.140 --> 53:24.800]  A pledge of $75.
[53:25.160 --> 53:27.540]  You'll get the autographed book, however many are left.
[53:27.540 --> 53:28.640]  We'll check that in a moment.
[53:29.580 --> 53:32.400]  And you will also get the pocket multi-tool.
[53:32.500 --> 53:47.160]  But most importantly, you will be supporting WBAI, keeping Off The Hook going, as we have been since 1988, talking about hacker issues and technology and privacy and consumer issues, all sorts of things like that.
[53:47.160 --> 53:49.500]  Your voter support is very important to us.
[53:50.260 --> 53:52.160]  516-620-3602.
[53:53.000 --> 53:54.720]  Ask for the Cory Doctorow autographed book.
[53:54.820 --> 53:55.780]  What do you guys think of that interview?
[53:56.420 --> 53:58.060]  That was fascinating.
[53:58.440 --> 54:03.220]  And he's got such a way of explaining things and going into things.
[54:03.220 --> 54:09.380]  But also, while I was listening to that, I swiped your copy of the book here, and I got about a dozen pages in.
[54:09.500 --> 54:09.940]  I saw you.
[54:10.040 --> 54:10.880]  I saw that, yeah.
[54:11.160 --> 54:11.900]  Oh, you saw that, huh?
[54:12.020 --> 54:14.160]  But already, it sucked me way in.
[54:14.320 --> 54:23.280]  Just his use of language and how he describes what these characters are up to and what they're doing and who they are, it's immediately accessible.
[54:24.160 --> 54:29.180]  And, you know, as he was saying with the jargon, like, even if you don't know what the jargon means, you can get it from context.
[54:29.180 --> 54:31.820]  You can dive right into this along with everyone else.
[54:31.940 --> 54:33.600]  And it's a heck of a read already.
[54:33.780 --> 54:37.220]  And I might steal this from you when we leave the show.
[54:37.860 --> 54:40.500]  Well, we'll have words about that, I'm sure, in a little bit.
[54:40.580 --> 54:43.120]  But yes, it's really...
[54:43.120 --> 54:44.540]  I'm sure it's going to be a bestseller.
[54:44.580 --> 54:45.800]  I really do think so.
[54:45.900 --> 54:49.180]  And having your own autographed copy will be a truly awesome thing.
[54:49.180 --> 55:06.620]  But just to have these kinds of conversations to me is inspirational because it makes me feel not as hopeless, like there's all doom and gloom ahead, that there are enlightened people out there that are challenging the system, that are figuring out ways to express themselves,
[55:06.640 --> 55:15.500]  to get past obstacles, and just to kind of round up more people that get it and make us more powerful.
[55:15.740 --> 55:16.620]  That's what this is.
[55:16.680 --> 55:17.580]  That's what writing is.
[55:17.620 --> 55:18.740]  That's what broadcasting is.
[55:18.740 --> 55:19.660]  That's what activism is.
[55:19.820 --> 55:23.160]  I love the part where Rikari said he was blessed by activist parents.
[55:23.560 --> 55:28.420]  I'm wondering how many of our listeners out there are activist parents or have had activist parents.
[55:28.780 --> 55:34.220]  This is the kind of thing that propels you forward that makes for actual change.
[55:34.480 --> 55:35.960]  Yeah, we can think about it.
[55:36.040 --> 55:36.640]  We can talk about it.
[55:36.700 --> 55:38.700]  We can brood and bemoan our fate.
[55:39.160 --> 55:43.620]  But when you actually get out there and do something, you're actually talking about it, writing, being creative.
[55:43.880 --> 55:46.500]  There are so many ways, so many incredible ways.
[55:46.500 --> 55:50.060]  And broadcasting here on the radio is yet another way of doing that.
[55:50.180 --> 55:50.840]  And you know what?
[55:51.360 --> 55:58.980]  Yet another way of doing it is, is contributing to WBAI and making us stronger, keeping us on the air as we have been since 1960.
[55:58.980 --> 56:00.940]  This is a non-commercial radio station.
[56:01.140 --> 56:02.300]  We don't have commercials.
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[56:03.660 --> 56:04.920]  We never will have commercials.
[56:05.300 --> 56:10.940]  And the reason we do that is because our listeners are our sponsors, our only sponsors.
[56:11.240 --> 56:27.960]  By calling 516-620-3602 or visiting WBAI, give to WBAI.org, and pledging your support, you're basically investing in this place and keeping the bills paid, keeping the transmitter going, keeping the programming on the air.
[56:27.960 --> 56:29.200]  We don't get paid for what we do.
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[56:32.240 --> 56:34.720]  It's all labor of love and insanity.
[56:35.940 --> 56:38.100]  516-620-3602.
[56:38.220 --> 56:42.980]  Please join the people on the phone now and support WBAI.
[56:43.300 --> 56:44.360]  Keep these ideas flowing.
[56:44.360 --> 56:50.860]  You are listening to 99.5 FM WBAI New York.
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[57:17.640 --> 57:27.960]  And another way you can participate is by going to www.give2wbai.org.
[57:27.960 --> 57:28.360]  I'm sorry.
[57:28.360 --> 57:28.880]  Yes.
[57:29.280 --> 57:35.800]  Either way, with two spelled out or with the number two, it's give2wbai.org.
[57:36.160 --> 57:46.900]  And if you're listening, if you're tuning in now hoping to hear our friends at the Personal Computer Show, they are preempted this week so we could have this two-hour special, which we are halfway through, but they will be returning in a future week.
[57:47.020 --> 57:47.140]  Yes.
[57:47.140 --> 57:51.460]  If you tune in next week at this time, you will also not hear them because they're preempted next week as well.
[57:51.540 --> 57:52.220]  But we are too.
[57:52.380 --> 57:54.160]  So we'll be joining them in preemption-ville.
[57:54.420 --> 57:54.540]  Yes.
[57:54.600 --> 57:56.300]  There will be special programming next week.
[57:56.420 --> 57:56.660]  Yes.
[57:56.660 --> 57:56.700]  Yes.
[57:56.820 --> 57:58.040]  But right now, we're here.
[57:58.180 --> 57:59.060]  We are here right now.
[57:59.140 --> 58:00.640]  And so are you because you're listening to us.
[58:00.820 --> 58:01.260]  Yeah.
[58:01.360 --> 58:01.940]  We got you.
[58:02.160 --> 58:04.040]  So please, please give a call.
[58:04.140 --> 58:05.660]  516-620-3602.
[58:06.380 --> 58:07.120]  We need your support.
[58:07.520 --> 58:11.720]  We are quite sincere in asking for your help to keep the radio station going.
[58:13.340 --> 58:15.300]  Every season, we have a fundraiser.
[58:15.580 --> 58:31.600]  And through the hundreds of thousands of dollars that we raise through contributions like yours, this radio station does the impossible every single day and stays on the air broadcasting on top of the Empire State Building to four states in the commercial band.
[58:31.720 --> 58:36.920]  Do you realize how many things are coalescing together to make the impossible real?
[58:37.040 --> 58:38.000]  99.5.
[58:38.120 --> 58:41.960]  You may notice most non-commercial radio stations are below 92.
[58:42.340 --> 58:44.400]  The non-commercial ghetto is what it's called.
[58:44.400 --> 58:47.760]  And that's because of the way the FM spectrum was set up.
[58:47.900 --> 58:55.420]  But 99.5 is special because this station was donated by an especially generous person, donated to the Pacifica Foundation.
[58:55.760 --> 59:10.340]  And in so doing, a massive resource was created here in New York City, where people were able to hear all kinds of alternative perspectives and be able to participate themselves.
[59:10.340 --> 59:21.160]  And you can continue that tradition by calling 516-620-3602 and asking for the Cory Doctorow autographed book called Walk Away.
[59:21.520 --> 59:27.240]  And join the people already on the phone, 516-620-3602.
[59:27.360 --> 59:31.040]  I just wanted to remind everyone that you can really give us any amount.
[59:31.200 --> 59:35.720]  Any contribution to this fund drive makes a huge difference to us.
[59:35.720 --> 59:42.940]  We've got some thank you gifts at suggested pledge levels, but really any donation amount really makes a difference.
[59:43.100 --> 59:46.600]  That's $10, $20, $25, whatever you can afford.
[59:46.840 --> 59:48.600]  We also have recurring programs.
[59:48.720 --> 59:59.860]  We have something called the WBAI Buddy Program, where basically you set up an account in a way that you're charged a small amount, whatever you set, on a recurring basis.
[59:59.860 --> 01:00:08.300]  That's a monthly way that you can contribute to WBAI, and that will go right to our fundraising coffers.
[01:00:08.420 --> 01:00:12.900]  Yes, just follow the WBAI Buddy icon on the website, WBAI.
[01:00:13.020 --> 01:00:18.480]  Give to WBAI.org, and you'll be prompted on what to do there.
[01:00:18.480 --> 01:00:24.340]  That's a great way that you know you're contributing without having to physically participate in the drive.
[01:00:24.340 --> 01:00:32.260]  Every time we come to the listening audience, you'll know that your contribution is being made through that automatic method.
[01:00:33.580 --> 01:00:35.500]  516-620-3602.
[01:00:35.560 --> 01:00:44.020]  Now, we're about to introduce a second premium, actually a second and a third premium, that we'll be offering for the remainder of the show.
[01:00:44.020 --> 01:00:53.540]  For those of you that either have already gotten the Cory Doctorow autographed book, or who want something different, we will be introducing that in just a moment.
[01:00:53.720 --> 01:00:58.540]  But first, I just want to make sure people are aware of the phone number, 516-620-3602.
[01:00:58.540 --> 01:01:00.780]  This is Off the Hook, the hacker show.
[01:01:00.940 --> 01:01:02.180]  We've been on the air since 1988.
[01:01:02.240 --> 01:01:06.420]  And if you've never heard a hacker show before, think about how unusual that is.
[01:01:06.640 --> 01:01:09.760]  The fact that no other radio station has this kind of programming.
[01:01:09.980 --> 01:01:10.860]  Do you want to support that?
[01:01:10.980 --> 01:01:11.860]  Do you want that to continue?
[01:01:12.100 --> 01:01:20.940]  Or would you like maybe some commercial music and, you know, a few ads thrown into the mix without any ideas to actually fill your head?
[01:01:21.060 --> 01:01:24.260]  Or worse yet, a hacker show that has sponsors.
[01:01:24.260 --> 01:01:36.080]  I mean, can you imagine how many security cruddy companies would line up and just throw their ad money at a commercial program like that?
[01:01:36.180 --> 01:01:37.020]  I'm sorry to cut you off, Kyle.
[01:01:37.140 --> 01:01:39.480]  We'll be right back after this message from Verizon.
[01:01:39.960 --> 01:01:41.740]  Yeah, you see how that could go?
[01:01:42.160 --> 01:01:42.600]  Wow.
[01:01:42.840 --> 01:01:46.000]  And I can sit here right now and say, wow, Verizon sucks.
[01:01:46.060 --> 01:01:46.460]  They're awful.
[01:01:46.540 --> 01:01:46.940]  They're terrible.
[01:01:47.240 --> 01:01:50.140]  And nobody's going to come for me here at management.
[01:01:50.140 --> 01:01:53.100]  Sorry, this interruption is brought to you by Microsoft.
[01:01:54.520 --> 01:01:57.420]  You know, I know you guys are playing around and still I clenched instinctively.
[01:01:57.580 --> 01:01:58.260]  Uh-huh, uh-huh.
[01:01:58.380 --> 01:02:01.640]  Well, you know, and this is something we were talking with Corey about this and he gets it.
[01:02:01.780 --> 01:02:04.680]  You know, with Boing Boing, they get threatened, they get sued.
[01:02:05.040 --> 01:02:07.060]  It's what's happening throughout the culture.
[01:02:07.840 --> 01:02:13.440]  If you speak up, you get challenged by people who think they can intimidate you into silence.
[01:02:13.760 --> 01:02:16.200]  Here at WBAI, we're not so easily intimidated.
[01:02:16.200 --> 01:02:18.460]  And at 2600, we're not intimidated.
[01:02:18.720 --> 01:02:19.880]  Boing Boing, they're not intimidated.
[01:02:20.340 --> 01:02:25.640]  All these people, hackers, the hacker community knows when they are in the right.
[01:02:25.880 --> 01:02:29.460]  The thing to do is to speak up and to be loud and to share the information.
[01:02:29.620 --> 01:02:30.760]  That is what it's all about.
[01:02:30.900 --> 01:02:35.060]  And by having these discussions, we're able to bring the issues to an objective level.
[01:02:35.220 --> 01:02:36.270]  There's a lot of subjectivity.
[01:02:37.140 --> 01:02:40.460]  There's a lot of punditry, especially off the campaign season.
[01:02:40.460 --> 01:02:44.480]  And there's a lot of emotion.
[01:02:44.740 --> 01:02:45.800]  People are upset.
[01:02:45.960 --> 01:02:46.920]  People are concerned.
[01:02:47.240 --> 01:02:55.080]  And by having a book like this, something that really is nutritious for your imagination.
[01:02:55.080 --> 01:03:07.040]  And these kinds of, I don't know, I guess, open discussions where we have listeners that can contribute, people write in, and we're sort of evaluating the news.
[01:03:07.200 --> 01:03:22.880]  That allows us to remove ourselves, I think, from the knee-jerk reactions and the sort of obvious answers and really look at the sort of fundamental, the layers and the logic behind some of what's kind of going on in the news or whatever is at hand.
[01:03:22.880 --> 01:03:23.320]  Yes.
[01:03:23.660 --> 01:03:45.160]  And that's the really special part of this show, that we can kind of create a forum for those ideas and discussions to thrive and push those ideas a little bit further, instead of sort of having the same discussions that are more emotional than reasoned.
[01:03:45.160 --> 01:03:51.060]  Well, you like to feel like you're getting somewhere, like you're making progress, that you're doing something that matters.
[01:03:51.060 --> 01:03:59.340]  And I think, you know, from what we just heard with Corey's interview and the excerpt before that, is that people are engaging.
[01:03:59.360 --> 01:04:05.540]  People are moving the conversation forward and are kind of getting woke, you know?
[01:04:05.660 --> 01:04:13.160]  They're hearing things that maybe they've just thought about in the back of their head, but now they're realizing people are saying something.
[01:04:13.160 --> 01:04:19.000]  They're moving forward and they're deciding where they want to go, where they want the culture to go.
[01:04:19.120 --> 01:04:32.820]  And we can create a new language around that so we can call things what they are, instead of maybe just having a feeling something might not be right or that it is a participant in something that is depriving us of freedom or whatever it is.
[01:04:32.820 --> 01:04:40.760]  We can identify that stuff because we've looked at it in a sort of a removed and a little bit more intellectual perspective.
[01:04:41.140 --> 01:04:42.200]  Hey, these books are going.
[01:04:42.400 --> 01:04:45.660]  So give a call to 516-620-3602.
[01:04:45.780 --> 01:04:48.460]  We're going to be out fairly soon at this rate.
[01:04:48.600 --> 01:04:51.820]  So please call up 516-620-3602.
[01:04:51.900 --> 01:04:55.740]  A pledge of $75 gets you the brand new Cory Doctorow book called Walk Away.
[01:04:56.880 --> 01:04:58.400]  It's autographed by Cory Doctorow.
[01:04:58.460 --> 01:04:59.540]  You want to drop it on the table, Kyle?
[01:04:59.760 --> 01:05:00.980]  Yeah, I'd like to.
[01:05:01.180 --> 01:05:02.640]  We do this for our listeners.
[01:05:02.820 --> 01:05:03.260]  Here it is.
[01:05:04.280 --> 01:05:05.300]  Okay, that's a heavy book.
[01:05:05.400 --> 01:05:11.160]  And I should point out, too, that's the paperback galley copy we have and not the hardcover that you will be getting.
[01:05:11.300 --> 01:05:12.080]  Oh, it will be hardcover.
[01:05:12.280 --> 01:05:13.420]  I believe it is hardcover, yes.
[01:05:13.420 --> 01:05:13.560]  Okay, yes.
[01:05:13.900 --> 01:05:15.620]  And it's autographed, so that adds more weight to it.
[01:05:15.720 --> 01:05:16.080]  That's right.
[01:05:16.160 --> 01:05:22.420]  And also, you'll be getting that multi-tool, which allows you to get into situations and get out of situations.
[01:05:22.420 --> 01:05:23.360]  That's just so neat.
[01:05:23.460 --> 01:05:24.340]  That is really cool.
[01:05:24.580 --> 01:05:24.740]  Yes.
[01:05:24.740 --> 01:05:35.000]  I love that they're including that, and I'm sure we'll have a full review of the multi-tool from our listeners once they're able to open that up and check it out.
[01:05:35.200 --> 01:05:37.220]  So, 516-620-3602.
[01:05:37.440 --> 01:05:47.380]  Ask for the walkaway Cory Doctorow autograph book or go to give2wbai.org and do same, but do it soon because these books are disappearing in a good way.
[01:05:47.560 --> 01:05:51.220]  Walkaway, the Cory Doctorow autograph book, 516-620-3602.
[01:05:51.280 --> 01:05:53.080]  And I mentioned that we are offering something else as well.
[01:05:54.120 --> 01:05:57.920]  Cory Doctorow gave the keynote address at the 11th Hope last year.
[01:05:57.920 --> 01:05:59.380]  We heard an excerpt of that earlier.
[01:05:59.980 --> 01:06:00.720]  But you know what?
[01:06:00.760 --> 01:06:01.920]  It was our 11th conference.
[01:06:02.120 --> 01:06:03.520]  The 11th Hope is why we called it that.
[01:06:04.220 --> 01:06:05.780]  We had keynotes before then.
[01:06:05.880 --> 01:06:07.020]  We had many keynotes.
[01:06:07.640 --> 01:06:12.340]  Well, more than 10, actually, because some conferences we had three keynotes.
[01:06:12.600 --> 01:06:16.100]  Some conferences we had featured speakers as well as keynotes.
[01:06:16.340 --> 01:06:19.120]  What we're doing is we are including all of those.
[01:06:19.320 --> 01:06:24.100]  We're talking about over 20 talks in another package, again, for $75.
[01:06:24.900 --> 01:06:30.480]  We call it the Hope Keynote, Hope Conference Keynote Series.
[01:06:30.500 --> 01:06:31.480]  That's what it's called.
[01:06:31.700 --> 01:06:32.180]  Officially.
[01:06:32.380 --> 01:06:34.920]  Yeah, here on WBAI Fundraiser.
[01:06:35.220 --> 01:06:46.540]  So if you call up 516-620-3602 and ask for the Hope Conference Keynote Series, you can make a choice at that point of having it on a flash drive or a set of DVDs, whichever you prefer.
[01:06:47.020 --> 01:06:51.820]  A pledge of $75 will get you either, the Hope Conference Keynote Series.
[01:06:51.820 --> 01:06:57.300]  And you will hear people like, oh, I don't know, Steve Wozniak gave the keynote once.
[01:06:57.440 --> 01:06:58.960]  Kevin Mitnick has given the keynote.
[01:06:59.120 --> 01:07:03.220]  Edward Snowden, Richard Stallman, Jello Biafra, Aaron Magruder.
[01:07:04.260 --> 01:07:04.980]  Need I go on?
[01:07:05.020 --> 01:07:11.160]  We have so many interesting people in the community that have spoken to our attendees.
[01:07:11.780 --> 01:07:14.220]  And every talk, they don't get old.
[01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:22.620]  You know, whether you're going back to our first conference in 1994 or the most recent one last year, you will hear so much that is relevant today.
[01:07:23.040 --> 01:07:25.780]  And that all comes your way in the Hope Conference Keynote Series.
[01:07:25.780 --> 01:07:31.380]  516-620-3602 or give to WBAI.org.
[01:07:31.600 --> 01:07:38.260]  We are offering that as part of this initial program here in the Spring Fundraiser at WBAI.
[01:07:38.380 --> 01:07:41.020]  516-620-3602.
[01:07:41.060 --> 01:07:44.240]  You guys have a favorite keynote address from any of the Hope Conferences?
[01:07:46.140 --> 01:07:49.000]  Aaron Magruder and Adam Savage.
[01:07:49.140 --> 01:07:49.980]  Those were some that I remember.
[01:07:49.980 --> 01:07:50.280]  Adam Savage too.
[01:07:50.620 --> 01:07:51.440]  Yes, absolutely.
[01:07:52.580 --> 01:07:53.240]  Aaron Magruder.
[01:07:53.360 --> 01:07:54.180]  Okay, well, you know what?
[01:07:54.200 --> 01:07:56.060]  It was a little before my time, I think.
[01:07:56.160 --> 01:07:59.840]  I was just finding out about hacking and these talks.
[01:08:00.360 --> 01:08:00.600]  Uh-huh.
[01:08:01.060 --> 01:08:04.820]  Well, just for you, Kyle, we're going to play an excerpt from the Aaron Magruder talk.
[01:08:05.200 --> 01:08:06.160]  I should say...
[01:08:06.160 --> 01:08:07.300]  I believe that was H2K2.
[01:08:07.420 --> 01:08:07.640]  No.
[01:08:07.880 --> 01:08:09.040]  That was H2K2, yes.
[01:08:09.100 --> 01:08:09.400]  H2K2.
[01:08:09.480 --> 01:08:12.020]  Of all the keynotes, I think this one has the worst audio.
[01:08:12.020 --> 01:08:19.230]  So, this is as bad as it gets, but the video is fine and all the other pieces are perfect.
[01:08:20.020 --> 01:08:27.000]  This is an excerpt from H2K2, Aaron Magruder giving the keynote address.
[01:08:27.230 --> 01:08:34.420]  Again, the keynote package in either DVD form or flash drive form is yours for a pledge of $75.
[01:08:34.420 --> 01:08:44.000]  You'll get over 20 talks of all kinds of luminaries inside and outside the hacker community, and he's speaking with our HOPE conference attendees.
[01:08:44.500 --> 01:08:49.720]  516-620-3602.
[01:08:50.640 --> 01:08:51.660]  All right.
[01:08:51.770 --> 01:08:53.020]  Let's have a listen.
[01:08:54.460 --> 01:09:02.720]  I mean, what's scary to me is we at this point are at a loss for what to do.
[01:09:04.680 --> 01:09:06.890]  We don't know what to do about our politicians.
[01:09:07.680 --> 01:09:10.140]  You know, we don't know what to do about foreign politics.
[01:09:10.380 --> 01:09:14.270]  First of all, there's a few things that you should think about.
[01:09:14.270 --> 01:09:18.810]  One, I mean, I remember at September 11, all these people were like, let's go get them.
[01:09:19.580 --> 01:09:20.340]  Let's go fight them.
[01:09:20.420 --> 01:09:21.000]  Let's go do this.
[01:09:21.080 --> 01:09:21.640]  Let's go do that.
[01:09:21.840 --> 01:09:22.040]  Oh, yeah.
[01:09:22.080 --> 01:09:22.700]  Like it's up to you.
[01:09:22.810 --> 01:09:23.120]  Shut up.
[01:09:24.890 --> 01:09:26.120]  All these people in coffee shops.
[01:09:26.230 --> 01:09:26.660]  I hate that.
[01:09:26.810 --> 01:09:30.510]  I hate people talking about foreign policy in coffee.
[01:09:30.620 --> 01:09:30.850]  You know what?
[01:09:32.480 --> 01:09:32.800]  Why?
[01:09:34.520 --> 01:09:35.540]  You have no say.
[01:09:36.060 --> 01:09:36.700]  Shut up.
[01:09:40.700 --> 01:09:42.340]  First of all, you don't know anything.
[01:09:43.860 --> 01:09:45.430]  That's the Americans.
[01:09:46.000 --> 01:09:47.090]  I just wish...
[01:09:47.090 --> 01:09:48.210]  See, I'm the guy to say, you know what?
[01:09:48.230 --> 01:09:49.050]  I don't know anything.
[01:09:49.500 --> 01:09:51.310]  I'm standing in front of a room of people.
[01:09:51.460 --> 01:09:57.350]  You all know a lot more than I do about a lot of stuff that's actually practical uses in the world.
[01:09:57.620 --> 01:09:58.710]  God bless you for it.
[01:09:59.160 --> 01:10:00.430]  Me, I know nothing.
[01:10:00.590 --> 01:10:02.000]  But at least I admit to that.
[01:10:02.120 --> 01:10:02.840]  I tell jokes.
[01:10:03.160 --> 01:10:06.270]  I have a halfway clever sense of humor if you catch me on the right day.
[01:10:06.270 --> 01:10:07.230]  That's it.
[01:10:07.730 --> 01:10:08.630]  You know what?
[01:10:08.800 --> 01:10:10.350]  Most Americans are just like me.
[01:10:10.540 --> 01:10:11.170]  They don't know anything.
[01:10:12.010 --> 01:10:13.420]  So shut up.
[01:10:16.690 --> 01:10:23.350]  You are an idiot who has been raised by advertising since you were two and a half years old.
[01:10:23.830 --> 01:10:25.250]  You don't know anything.
[01:10:29.940 --> 01:10:35.580]  Americans, they watch The O'Reilly Factor and feel educated.
[01:10:37.840 --> 01:10:40.460]  And talk about things as though they knew.
[01:10:41.080 --> 01:10:41.520]  Like...
[01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:42.820]  You know what the problem is with Cuba?
[01:10:43.120 --> 01:10:44.460]  No, and you don't either.
[01:10:45.780 --> 01:10:47.740]  Because you've never been there and neither have I.
[01:10:49.780 --> 01:10:52.120]  Cuba could be like Nirvana for all I know.
[01:10:53.480 --> 01:10:54.300]  You don't know about Cuba.
[01:10:54.440 --> 01:10:55.240]  You don't know about Iraq.
[01:10:55.320 --> 01:10:56.640]  You know...
[01:10:57.260 --> 01:10:58.600]  So that really angers me.
[01:10:59.100 --> 01:11:00.960]  Yeah, I was having a discussion about September 11.
[01:11:01.380 --> 01:11:03.220]  I can't believe we need to go kill them.
[01:11:03.580 --> 01:11:03.820]  Why?
[01:11:04.420 --> 01:11:05.700]  They took out our buildings.
[01:11:06.060 --> 01:11:06.460]  Ours?
[01:11:08.660 --> 01:11:10.480]  I didn't own any of those buildings.
[01:11:13.870 --> 01:11:15.370]  Well, they killed a bunch of our people.
[01:11:16.410 --> 01:11:19.070]  Well, you know, we killed half a million Iraqis.
[01:11:19.730 --> 01:11:20.570]  No, we didn't.
[01:11:21.330 --> 01:11:22.090]  Yes, we did.
[01:11:23.510 --> 01:11:24.390]  How many...
[01:11:24.830 --> 01:11:29.030]  How many people you think died over there while we were dropping all them bombs day in a day?
[01:11:30.270 --> 01:11:32.870]  Ah, not as many as we got killed.
[01:11:35.370 --> 01:11:40.930]  Yeah, that doesn't count even like the million or so that died after because of the sanctions and all that.
[01:11:41.290 --> 01:11:43.030]  You know, it's...
[01:11:44.090 --> 01:11:44.530]  Americans...
[01:11:44.530 --> 01:11:45.410]  Look, the world is ignorant.
[01:11:45.410 --> 01:11:52.490]  Look, you know, people in oppressed dictatorships, communist countries, whatever, you know what?
[01:11:52.570 --> 01:11:56.050]  They don't know what's going on in the world because their media is controlled.
[01:11:56.310 --> 01:11:57.190]  And you know what?
[01:11:57.390 --> 01:11:58.310]  Neither do we.
[01:11:58.710 --> 01:12:00.110]  Our media is controlled.
[01:12:01.770 --> 01:12:02.830]  But you know what?
[01:12:04.830 --> 01:12:05.970]  If you go...
[01:12:05.970 --> 01:12:13.770]  If you go to Iraq and ask somebody and I haven't done it, but I figure, if you go to Iraq and ask somebody and say, What's going on in the world?
[01:12:13.850 --> 01:12:14.750]  They probably say, I don't know.
[01:12:14.870 --> 01:12:16.090]  Saddam doesn't let us watch anything.
[01:12:17.730 --> 01:12:20.050]  But the difference over here, we think we know.
[01:12:20.950 --> 01:12:22.550]  We have the illusion of wisdom.
[01:12:24.170 --> 01:12:26.690]  We swear we know about what's going on in the world, and we don't.
[01:12:27.850 --> 01:12:33.650]  So, just like we swear we live in a democratic society, so we say these things to each other like, yeah, we need to go over there and do that.
[01:12:33.690 --> 01:12:34.670]  I'm going to write my congressman.
[01:12:35.550 --> 01:12:36.270]  Nobody cares.
[01:12:36.870 --> 01:12:37.930]  You have no say.
[01:12:37.930 --> 01:12:38.770]  You're not important.
[01:12:40.150 --> 01:12:41.030]  Who'd you vote for?
[01:12:41.710 --> 01:12:42.070]  Gore.
[01:12:42.070 --> 01:12:43.830]  No, I mean, it doesn't.
[01:12:43.970 --> 01:12:44.430]  That's the thing.
[01:12:44.630 --> 01:12:47.010]  But if you voted for Gore, you know what?
[01:12:47.210 --> 01:12:48.150]  You should just leave.
[01:12:50.210 --> 01:12:51.930]  Like, at least I voted for Nader.
[01:12:52.030 --> 01:12:52.870]  He didn't have a chance.
[01:12:59.480 --> 01:13:07.500]  All right, and that was an excerpt from H2K2, our fourth conference in 2002 in New York City.
[01:13:07.540 --> 01:13:19.680]  And yes, that's as bad as the sound gets on any of the talks that we're offering tonight as part of the keynote package, the HOPE Conference keynote package, 516-620-3602.
[01:13:20.480 --> 01:13:31.180]  And, you know, it's many times controversial, as Aaron Magruder was, quite controversial, but people are receptive and listening and thinking and debating, and that's what it's all about.
[01:13:31.380 --> 01:13:32.880]  This is also a young Aaron Magruder.
[01:13:33.000 --> 01:13:35.480]  If you're familiar with his work, this was back... this was in 2002.
[01:13:35.820 --> 01:13:38.180]  He was still doing the boondocks as a newspaper comic.
[01:13:38.180 --> 01:13:48.560]  This was, I think, long before he got it done as a cartoon, which, of course, ended up breaking all sorts of barriers and winning all sorts of accolades and being so successful that the network stole it from him.
[01:13:49.360 --> 01:13:51.480]  But... and then he moved on to doing other things.
[01:13:51.660 --> 01:13:56.980]  But, yeah, listening to him at that point, it's a real... it's a real picture, as I think all these keynotes are.
[01:13:57.100 --> 01:14:01.220]  It's a real picture of the history, not only of the hacker scene, but of where the world was at the time.
[01:14:01.220 --> 01:14:15.520]  Yeah, and, you know, the reason we invited him was because through his boondocks cartoon and daily newspapers, he was the only person, and I'm including people who wrote news stories, who understood what DECSS was all about.
[01:14:15.700 --> 01:14:18.520]  That's what we got sued under in the year 2000.
[01:14:19.240 --> 01:14:27.600]  And, you know, for that to make it into every single newspaper that carried his comic, that was a real accomplishment.
[01:14:27.600 --> 01:14:32.180]  That was something... that was educating people in a way that a lot of people weren't expecting to be educated.
[01:14:32.380 --> 01:14:34.420]  So that, to me, was a hack.
[01:14:34.560 --> 01:14:37.440]  That was... that was enough to qualify right there.
[01:14:37.600 --> 01:14:39.240]  And a lot of people didn't see it at first.
[01:14:39.420 --> 01:14:41.320]  You know, what does Aaron Magruder have to do with the hacker community?
[01:14:42.240 --> 01:14:43.960]  They listened to him, and they got it.
[01:14:44.160 --> 01:14:45.000]  You know, they saw.
[01:14:45.220 --> 01:14:47.160]  They... they opened up their eyes to this.
[01:14:47.600 --> 01:14:49.640]  And he learned an awful lot, too, that weekend.
[01:14:49.680 --> 01:14:59.600]  But that's just one of at least 20 talks that you'll be getting when you pledge for the Hope Conference keynote series in either DVD format or flash drive format.
[01:14:59.660 --> 01:15:02.920]  by calling 516-620-3602.
[01:15:03.500 --> 01:15:05.020]  You'll also hear Jello Biaffer.
[01:15:05.200 --> 01:15:07.720]  You'll hear Edward Snowden, Richard Stallman, William Binney.
[01:15:09.160 --> 01:15:10.520]  I'm leaving out so many people.
[01:15:10.540 --> 01:15:11.000]  I know that.
[01:15:11.220 --> 01:15:16.100]  Also worth noting that whether you get the DVD or the flash drive, there's no insulting DRM or anything like that.
[01:15:16.100 --> 01:15:18.720]  You can transfer this stuff to whatever devices you want to watch it on.
[01:15:18.880 --> 01:15:19.280]  Absolutely.
[01:15:19.800 --> 01:15:23.800]  I think it's worth noting those controversial...
[01:15:23.800 --> 01:15:25.720]  And I think all of our keynotes do this.
[01:15:27.900 --> 01:15:31.460]  And difficult topics, they push us.
[01:15:31.700 --> 01:15:32.620]  They challenge us.
[01:15:32.800 --> 01:15:40.840]  And I think that's where when you get out of your comfort zone a little bit, that's when you learn a little.
[01:15:40.920 --> 01:15:43.720]  And every one of our keynotes, I think, has done that in one way or another.
[01:15:44.180 --> 01:15:56.660]  Whether you're talking about software with like Richard Stallman or Adam Savage, I'm sorry, talking about passion with projects and getting really into things.
[01:15:58.040 --> 01:16:13.360]  Some of you might say, oh, I don't know if I could be that into something or if I'm so concerned about software that I'm going to reflash my firmware and all these kinds of esoteric, really out there things, I think challenge our listeners.
[01:16:13.360 --> 01:16:24.080]  And that's really the thing you'd find across all of these conversations is a real challenge to know more, to learn more, to dive deeper into things.
[01:16:24.460 --> 01:16:24.800]  Absolutely.
[01:16:25.560 --> 01:16:39.140]  Join the people who are calling in to 516-620-3602 to get the Hope Conference keynote series, the keynote speakers and featured speakers of the Hope Conferences over the years.
[01:16:39.140 --> 01:16:58.040]  Some of the most notable names in the hacker world and just some of the most interesting ideas presented over 20 talks for a pledge of $75, 516-620-3602 or visit gift2wbai.org and ask for the Hope Conference keynote series in Flash or DVD format.
[01:16:58.300 --> 01:17:04.060]  And also, we still have a few copies of Walk Away, the choreo-doctoral autographed book, again, for a pledge of $75.
[01:17:05.140 --> 01:17:06.420]  Hold that up to the microphone, Kyle.
[01:17:06.540 --> 01:17:09.660]  Yes, 516-620-3602.
[01:17:09.820 --> 01:17:11.340]  That's what it sounds like when it hits the microphone.
[01:17:11.640 --> 01:17:11.840]  Okay.
[01:17:12.700 --> 01:17:13.660]  Wow, it's...
[01:17:13.660 --> 01:17:14.480]  I got a little aggressive.
[01:17:14.520 --> 01:17:15.380]  Yeah, it's...
[01:17:15.380 --> 01:17:16.480]  Well, it'll make you do that.
[01:17:16.580 --> 01:17:17.500]  It really will make you think.
[01:17:18.280 --> 01:17:19.680]  516-620-3602.
[01:17:19.840 --> 01:17:29.460]  We're on for an extra hour tonight in the hopes that we can raise more money for the radio station so the radio station can keep transmitting and so that we can have all kinds of other ideas over the years ahead.
[01:17:30.020 --> 01:17:31.760]  You know, a lot of people write off radio.
[01:17:31.760 --> 01:17:33.300]  A lot of people write off WBAI.
[01:17:33.400 --> 01:17:36.720]  A lot of people write off hackers or just individual thought in general.
[01:17:36.940 --> 01:17:37.980]  But we're still here.
[01:17:38.020 --> 01:17:39.160]  We're still broadcasting.
[01:17:39.220 --> 01:17:40.120]  We're still thinking.
[01:17:40.400 --> 01:17:42.820]  We're still causing controversy of all sorts.
[01:17:42.920 --> 01:17:43.680]  You can join us.
[01:17:43.740 --> 01:17:51.340]  You can be a part of that just by calling 516-620-3602 and joining the people on the phone, showing your support.
[01:17:52.380 --> 01:17:58.220]  And as we said earlier, we love the magic of radio and broadcasting live and being on the air.
[01:17:58.300 --> 01:18:00.580]  But we do also appreciate our podcast listeners.
[01:18:00.580 --> 01:18:06.560]  So if you're listening to this in the mysterious future sometime, we may be out of these books because as we said, they're very limited.
[01:18:06.740 --> 01:18:09.000]  But you could still check and see if there are any left.
[01:18:09.440 --> 01:18:13.320]  Give to WBAI.org or call 516-620-3602.
[01:18:13.460 --> 01:18:19.100]  You can pledge for one of our other, one of our Hope Keynote collections.
[01:18:19.600 --> 01:18:21.760]  Or you could just pledge any amount you want to the station.
[01:18:21.900 --> 01:18:26.660]  Let them know you're donating to, in the name of your favorite show, Off the Hook, which we hope your favorite show is.
[01:18:26.680 --> 01:18:27.160]  I know it's mine.
[01:18:28.520 --> 01:18:31.880]  And help the show and the station keep doing what we do.
[01:18:32.040 --> 01:18:36.260]  516-620-3602 or give to WBAI.org.
[01:18:36.520 --> 01:18:40.240]  We would also like to say hello to people on the IRC channels.
[01:18:40.600 --> 01:18:47.020]  IRC.2600.net in the Off the Hook room there.
[01:18:47.220 --> 01:19:02.540]  Also, those of you following our Hacker Radio Show account on social media, on Twitter, if you've got a favorite keynote or you'd like to ask us a question, feel free to reach out to us there.
[01:19:02.720 --> 01:19:06.920]  Yeah, I know we said this last week that we were taking questions at our Twitter account.
[01:19:07.080 --> 01:19:07.680]  It worked out.
[01:19:07.740 --> 01:19:08.500]  Hacker Radio Show.
[01:19:08.580 --> 01:19:09.920]  Yeah, except we forgot to read any of the questions.
[01:19:10.240 --> 01:19:10.280]  That was interesting.
[01:19:10.420 --> 01:19:10.900]  Yeah, no.
[01:19:12.080 --> 01:19:14.560]  So, yeah, we got some good ones, but we didn't read them.
[01:19:14.640 --> 01:19:16.180]  It's new for us, too, okay?
[01:19:16.440 --> 01:19:17.840]  This week, we're going to try and read them.
[01:19:17.960 --> 01:19:19.520]  So, if you have something, tweet at us.
[01:19:19.860 --> 01:19:20.520]  Yeah, go ahead.
[01:19:20.660 --> 01:19:21.220]  Tweet at us.
[01:19:22.880 --> 01:19:24.500]  And we'll maybe read it on the air.
[01:19:24.620 --> 01:19:26.120]  Hacker Radio Show is our Twitter.
[01:19:26.220 --> 01:19:30.440]  As always, you could reach us oth at 2600.com.
[01:19:30.640 --> 01:19:31.820]  That's our email address, yes.
[01:19:32.060 --> 01:19:36.920]  And our phone number right now to take pledges is 516-620-3602.
[01:19:37.040 --> 01:19:44.920]  Join the people who have volunteered to answer the phones and let them know how much you want to pledge to WBAI, to Off the Hook.
[01:19:45.100 --> 01:19:54.000]  Get yourself a copy, an autographed copy of the choreo-doctoral book along with a multi-tool and just the amazing ideas that come with that.
[01:19:54.000 --> 01:20:04.360]  Or get the keynote collection, 20-plus talks on either a flash drive or 20-plus DVDs, 516-620-3602.
[01:20:04.600 --> 01:20:11.400]  I'd like to just pause for a moment to go into another highlight from the Hope keynote series.
[01:20:11.740 --> 01:20:19.320]  This, of course, being one of the Jello Biafra talks, there were so many of those because he kept coming back and giving different talks at different conferences.
[01:20:19.320 --> 01:20:20.060]  You'll get them all.
[01:20:20.180 --> 01:20:28.260]  Even the ones that weren't technically keynotes, you'll get them all by calling 516-620-3602 and pledging for the Hope conference keynote series.
[01:20:28.520 --> 01:20:30.760]  Let's take a listen to the year 2000.
[01:20:31.040 --> 01:20:32.580]  Oh, who are some of the other ones?
[01:20:32.700 --> 01:20:40.140]  News Corporation, owned by that noted progressive humanitarian, Rupert Murdoch, who owns Fox.
[01:20:40.720 --> 01:20:47.460]  Their agenda certainly isn't to tell it like it is, let alone put interesting stuff on the air.
[01:20:47.820 --> 01:20:55.040]  You know, part of the way you get people to shut up and shop is to dumb down the news to help dumb down the people.
[01:20:55.340 --> 01:21:10.240]  Even in the late 80s, there were surveys pointing out, like from Fairness and Accuracy and Reporting, who everybody here should support and get to know, among others, that even then, there had already been a 25% reduction in actual news on the news program.
[01:21:10.680 --> 01:21:16.460]  And now, what you get is, good evening, here's the news, 20 minutes of O.J.
[01:21:16.580 --> 01:21:21.880]  Simpson, Monica Lewinsky, John Benet Ramsey, or Princess Diana, or whatever.
[01:21:22.620 --> 01:21:24.940]  Then, a quick shot to the instant cam.
[01:21:25.060 --> 01:21:30.560]  Well, yeah, there was some weird-ass car wreck here about four hours ago, but the street does seem to be empty now.
[01:21:30.760 --> 01:21:31.860]  Now, back to you.
[01:21:32.100 --> 01:21:35.060]  Well, now, word from our sponsor, then weather, then sports.
[01:21:36.100 --> 01:21:40.860]  And that, you know, it's basically, that's all the news you need to know.
[01:21:42.340 --> 01:21:56.100]  Dumbing down the people and deliberately keeping them that uninformed is rather anti-democratic, if you ask me, because people can't make informed decisions if they don't know what the hell's going on.
[01:21:57.100 --> 01:22:13.520]  And, I mean, it's basically a way of just keeping people asleep so it's better because it's, after all, for the corporate world order, it's better that we function as livestock instead of active and proactive thinkers.
[01:22:13.800 --> 01:22:27.360]  It's like in the old Soviet evil empire and communist China, the way you control the masses and make them livestock through advertising is basically fear of not keeping up with the state.
[01:22:27.680 --> 01:22:32.040]  We're here, and, you know, give them as little information as possible.
[01:22:32.600 --> 01:22:40.000]  Here, we bombard people with so much information they don't necessarily know where to begin to sift through it all.
[01:22:40.140 --> 01:22:45.400]  And it's fear of not keeping up with the Joneses instead.
[01:22:46.420 --> 01:22:51.700]  And so it's sort of a modern lobotomy through fear, if you will.
[01:22:51.880 --> 01:22:54.180]  It's like, oh my God, what's wrong with me?
[01:22:54.260 --> 01:22:57.900]  I'm not making a million dollars as a dot-com executive.
[01:22:59.140 --> 01:23:06.380]  Okay, that was Jello Biafra's keynote from H2K, the HOPE conference that took place in the year 2000.
[01:23:06.380 --> 01:23:10.440]  It's yours, along with every other keynote address at all 11 HOPE conferences.
[01:23:10.780 --> 01:23:14.120]  And we had multiple keynote addresses, a lot of featured speakers as well.
[01:23:14.200 --> 01:23:18.740]  You'll get more than 20 talks by calling 516-620-3602.
[01:23:19.380 --> 01:23:23.320]  And it'll keep you inspired and busy for a long, long time.
[01:23:23.980 --> 01:23:32.300]  A pledge of $75 gets you the HOPE conference keynote series on either a DVD format or a flash drive.
[01:23:32.880 --> 01:23:41.840]  And again, we also, we still have a handful, a handful of walk-away Cory Doctorow autographed books again for a pledge of $75.
[01:23:42.060 --> 01:23:44.380]  516-620-3602.
[01:23:44.480 --> 01:23:45.180]  We're in the home stretch.
[01:23:45.180 --> 01:23:49.220]  We only have about a half hour left and we need to get some more calls coming in.
[01:23:49.360 --> 01:23:51.300]  It's good, but it could be better.
[01:23:51.660 --> 01:23:53.300]  516-620-3602.
[01:23:53.320 --> 01:23:56.740]  I want each of you guys to get some people calling in.
[01:23:57.020 --> 01:24:08.160]  Well, as you mentioned earlier, it was about, what, 57 years ago that the station started through a sheer act of insane generosity on the part of one person.
[01:24:08.580 --> 01:24:16.300]  By rights, the station should never have gotten started, should never have existed because that's not what the media spectrum either then or now was ever built for.
[01:24:16.400 --> 01:24:18.220]  Many people say the station should not exist now.
[01:24:18.420 --> 01:24:18.680]  Exactly.
[01:24:18.940 --> 01:24:20.300]  in high positions of power
[01:24:23.440 --> 01:24:27.340]  this, what you're listening to right now has been the only thing that's kept the lights on around here.
[01:24:27.480 --> 01:24:29.040]  We have never accepted paid ads.
[01:24:29.140 --> 01:24:33.820]  We have never done a bikini car wash to my knowledge or anything like that.
[01:24:33.840 --> 01:24:37.160]  People chase us in the streets to try to get us to do these things and we will not have it.
[01:24:37.160 --> 01:24:46.740]  But this is the only thing you, the listeners the people to whom we are ultimately accountable just keeping the station on the air because they believe in what we do and how we do it.
[01:24:47.160 --> 01:25:02.400]  And so you can join those people by calling 516-620-3602 or going to give to wbai.org and adding your support to keep us all doing what we do in the way that we do it and hopefully for many, many years to come.
[01:25:03.360 --> 01:25:32.640]  Yes, 516-620-3602 you could also reach us online give to wbai.org and we're really sincerely thankful that you are with us here tonight and able to contribute any amount really any amount 5, $10 any increment is really graciously accepted and appreciated here at WBAI.
[01:25:32.760 --> 01:25:59.980]  If you'd like one of our thank you gifts there's several things we've mentioned earlier at the $75 level and for that level you'll get a book or one of the aforementioned forms of media with talks and stuff so that is great there's also a variety of other gifts I think that the station has on their website and that you can inquire about when you call Again,
[01:26:00.120 --> 01:26:04.700]  the number 516-620-3602.
[01:26:05.040 --> 01:26:13.220]  And you're supporting Off the Hook, a once-weekly program here at WBAI, 7 o'clock on Wednesdays.
[01:26:13.320 --> 01:26:19.560]  And you're supporting this station here in New York City and the Greater Pacifica Network.
[01:26:19.580 --> 01:26:24.440]  And we really, really count on your contributions to get us through the next couple months.
[01:26:24.440 --> 01:26:27.780]  We're just at the beginning of our spring fund drive here.
[01:26:27.940 --> 01:26:36.320]  And we'd really like to start with a great amount of momentum as far as our fundraising dollars.
[01:26:36.940 --> 01:26:40.060]  Anything, really anything, it really goes a long way.
[01:26:40.200 --> 01:26:44.700]  And it will keep us broadcasting for months and years to come.
[01:26:44.700 --> 01:26:45.280]  Absolutely.
[01:26:46.040 --> 01:26:52.200]  Join those people who are calling in 516-620-3602 or visit give2wbai.org.
[01:26:52.400 --> 01:26:54.060]  Again, we're offering three things tonight.
[01:26:54.260 --> 01:26:57.120]  We're offering Walk Away, the Cory Doctorow autographed book.
[01:26:57.280 --> 01:27:04.620]  For a pledge of $75, you'll get an autographed hard copy edition of Walk Away, Cory Doctorow's brand new novel.
[01:27:04.620 --> 01:27:07.960]  And you'll also get a pocket multi-tool included with that.
[01:27:07.980 --> 01:27:09.480]  And you can do whatever you want with that.
[01:27:10.080 --> 01:27:19.580]  For another pledge of $75, you can choose between the Hope Conference keynote series on either DVD or flash drive.
[01:27:19.720 --> 01:27:20.480]  Pledge of $75.
[01:27:20.780 --> 01:27:24.800]  The phone number 516-620-3602.
[01:27:24.960 --> 01:27:29.500]  We only have a half hour left, so please make your calls now so that we do well tonight.
[01:27:29.500 --> 01:27:34.680]  And we know that we have listeners watching our back as we are watching yours.
[01:27:35.060 --> 01:27:37.440]  516-620-3602.
[01:27:37.600 --> 01:27:45.140]  I'd like to go back to Hope Number 6, which is the year 2006, when Richard Stallman was giving the keynote.
[01:27:45.140 --> 01:27:47.640]  And there was a massive thunderstorm outside.
[01:27:47.640 --> 01:27:48.300]  I remember that.
[01:27:48.380 --> 01:27:52.700]  That was kind of one of those days that you just never quite forget.
[01:27:52.700 --> 01:28:00.260]  But Richard Stallman always has a very unique way of expressing himself, as do so many people in the hacker community.
[01:28:00.660 --> 01:28:02.960]  And it rivets the room.
[01:28:03.160 --> 01:28:08.760]  It makes people really want to think and discuss and just remember this kind of thing for a while.
[01:28:08.920 --> 01:28:11.440]  But while this is playing, please give a call.
[01:28:11.880 --> 01:28:14.400]  516-620-3602.
[01:28:14.400 --> 01:28:15.800]  To pledge whatever you can afford.
[01:28:16.100 --> 01:28:31.520]  Pledge for the Cory Doctorow book or pledge for the Hope keynote conference series, Hope conference keynote series, or anything else that you feel like pledging for, or just donating without pledging for anything.
[01:28:31.520 --> 01:28:32.580]  People do that as well.
[01:28:32.880 --> 01:28:34.880]  516-620-3602.
[01:28:34.940 --> 01:28:35.860]  Let's listen to Richard Stallman.
[01:28:40.160 --> 01:28:40.940]  Or not.
[01:28:41.120 --> 01:28:41.800]  Ah, there we are.
[01:28:42.480 --> 01:28:44.460]  Everyone, a man who needs no introduction.
[01:28:44.700 --> 01:28:45.840]  Oh, it's warm Pepsi.
[01:28:46.160 --> 01:28:46.800]  Is it?
[01:28:47.140 --> 01:28:48.120]  It seems to be.
[01:28:48.200 --> 01:28:49.360]  Is there any ice available?
[01:28:49.540 --> 01:28:50.080]  We'll fix it.
[01:28:50.600 --> 01:28:50.840]  Right.
[01:28:51.500 --> 01:28:52.600]  Ladies and gentlemen, RMS.
[01:29:03.500 --> 01:29:05.420]  Why are you turning those lights on?
[01:29:05.480 --> 01:29:06.920]  It's too hot in here already.
[01:29:09.340 --> 01:29:11.240]  So turn them down, okay?
[01:29:12.000 --> 01:29:15.400]  You don't have to shine lights in my face to make me talk.
[01:29:19.210 --> 01:29:22.750]  Down, down, down, down, down, down.
[01:29:23.030 --> 01:29:27.330]  Now, a little more light in the audience would be good so that I don't fall asleep.
[01:29:29.950 --> 01:29:32.430]  You, you're, it's okay if you sleep.
[01:29:33.030 --> 01:29:36.230]  No, you won't make a bunch of people unhappy if you do.
[01:29:37.210 --> 01:29:39.050]  But I shouldn't sleep here.
[01:29:42.790 --> 01:29:47.350]  Anyway, we apologize for this delay due to late arrival of equipment.
[01:29:48.590 --> 01:29:56.670]  And we expect to get you moving shortly and wish you a pleasant listen on the way to the end of the speech or wherever your final destination may be.
[01:30:00.480 --> 01:30:04.340]  So I'm going to talk about free software and the hacker community.
[01:30:05.320 --> 01:30:13.400]  First of all, I better explain what free software means since probably even a lot of you have not heard what it means.
[01:30:14.140 --> 01:30:17.760]  Free software means software that respects the user's freedom.
[01:30:17.760 --> 01:30:18.960]  Freedom.
[01:30:19.420 --> 01:30:27.380]  There are four essential freedoms for the user of software, freedoms that every software user should always have.
[01:30:27.940 --> 01:30:32.040]  And these four freedoms make the definition of free software.
[01:30:33.420 --> 01:30:38.260]  Freedom zero is the freedom to run the program as you wish for any purpose.
[01:30:39.680 --> 01:30:46.140]  Freedom one is the freedom to study the source code and change it so that the program does what you wish.
[01:30:46.900 --> 01:30:50.440]  Freedom two is the freedom to help your neighbor.
[01:30:50.800 --> 01:30:56.240]  That's the freedom to make copies and distribute them to others including publication.
[01:30:57.640 --> 01:31:09.460]  And freedom three is the freedom to contribute to your community, and that's the freedom to distribute your modified versions including publication when you wish.
[01:31:10.280 --> 01:31:12.260]  None of these is an obligation.
[01:31:12.260 --> 01:31:17.360]  You are never required to do any of these things, but the point is you are free to do them if you wish.
[01:31:17.840 --> 01:31:25.720]  And that means the software respects your freedom and respects the social solidarity of your community.
[01:31:27.500 --> 01:31:41.160]  If you use a program that doesn't give you freedom number two, you are in danger of falling into a moral dilemma at any moment when your friend says, could I have a copy of that program?
[01:31:42.040 --> 01:31:46.940]  At that moment you will be forced to choose between two evils.
[01:31:47.700 --> 01:31:52.700]  One evil is to give your friend a copy and violate the license of the program.
[01:31:53.020 --> 01:31:58.580]  The other evil is to deny your friend a copy and comply with the license of the program.
[01:31:59.480 --> 01:32:07.380]  Now once you are in a dilemma, you should choose the lesser evil, which is to give your friend to copy and violate the license of the program.
[01:32:13.540 --> 01:32:20.760]  This is the lesser evil because it's directed at somebody who has done wrong.
[01:32:21.400 --> 01:32:28.700]  We can suppose that your friend is a good friend, a helpful person and ordinarily would deserve your cooperation.
[01:32:30.220 --> 01:32:38.420]  Whereas the developer of a proprietary program has deliberately attacked the social solidarity of your community.
[01:32:38.620 --> 01:32:39.880]  Now, that's wrong.
[01:32:40.400 --> 01:32:47.280]  So, if you can't help doing wrong to somebody, better it should be a wrongdoer that you do it to.
[01:32:49.080 --> 01:32:52.300]  However, to be the lesser evil does not mean it's good.
[01:32:52.680 --> 01:32:55.900]  It's never good to make an agreement and not keep it.
[01:32:56.120 --> 01:33:02.260]  Now, it may be less bad than keeping the agreement depending on what you agreed to do.
[01:33:02.980 --> 01:33:04.700]  But it's never good.
[01:33:05.500 --> 01:33:16.040]  And an unauthorized copy of a non-free program shares most of the ethical ills of an authorized copy.
[01:33:16.140 --> 01:33:20.180]  The only one it doesn't share is that of rewarding the perpetrator.
[01:33:22.360 --> 01:33:31.260]  So, what you should really do once you have understood this dilemma, is make sure you're never in it.
[01:33:32.140 --> 01:33:37.520]  Don't set foot on the path that's going to lead you someday to that dilemma.
[01:33:38.540 --> 01:33:40.480]  And there are two ways to avoid it.
[01:33:40.620 --> 01:33:42.460]  One is, don't have any friends.
[01:33:44.340 --> 01:33:48.580]  That's the method suggested by the proprietary software developers.
[01:33:49.380 --> 01:33:52.940]  And the other method is, don't use proprietary software.
[01:33:53.320 --> 01:33:54.940]  That's the method I prefer.
[01:33:55.440 --> 01:34:03.400]  That way, I don't have to worry about a moral dilemma if someone asks for a copy of a program I've got on my computer.
[01:34:04.220 --> 01:34:07.140]  Because I will only accept free software onto it.
[01:34:07.300 --> 01:34:16.380]  If someone offers me an attractive, convenient program on a condition that I promise not to share it with you, I will say no.
[01:34:16.780 --> 01:34:18.840]  Because that's the right thing to do.
[01:34:19.040 --> 01:34:29.520]  And I would rather forego the convenience and fun of that program then put myself in a situation where I'd be ashamed of what I had done.
[01:34:35.220 --> 01:34:36.060]  Thank you.
[01:34:41.870 --> 01:34:49.210]  But, just being free to share does not mean that you're in control of your own computer.
[01:34:50.030 --> 01:34:52.190]  For that, you need freedom number one.
[01:34:52.350 --> 01:34:55.050]  You need to be able to study the program and change it.
[01:34:56.250 --> 01:35:00.350]  That's what enables you to decide what your computer does.
[01:35:00.610 --> 01:35:10.590]  If you use a program that doesn't give you freedom number one, the freedom to study the source code and change it, then the developer controls what you can do.
[01:35:10.790 --> 01:35:13.710]  And you are under the developer's power.
[01:35:14.410 --> 01:35:15.790]  This is unjust.
[01:35:16.230 --> 01:35:21.370]  This is an unjust system of subjugation.
[01:35:27.210 --> 01:35:32.930]  If you don't have freedom number one, you can't even tell for certain what the program does.
[01:35:33.290 --> 01:35:36.650]  Lots of proprietary programs have malicious features.
[01:35:37.410 --> 01:35:50.110]  Because once the developer is in a position of power, the developer faces the temptation to go one step further and start using that power specifically to mistreat others.
[01:35:51.490 --> 01:35:59.370]  So they put in spy features and features designed to restrict the user and even back doors.
[01:36:00.970 --> 01:36:03.770]  Now, spyware is quite common.
[01:36:04.370 --> 01:36:10.730]  One proprietary program that you might have heard of that spies on the user is called Windows XP.
[01:36:18.680 --> 01:36:34.960]  When the user of Windows XP, and I won't say you because I'm sure you wouldn't use a program like this, when the user of Windows XP searches her own files for a word, it sends a message saying what word was searched for.
[01:36:35.120 --> 01:36:36.400]  That's one spy feature.
[01:36:36.720 --> 01:36:38.920]  But there's another that we know of.
[01:36:39.220 --> 01:36:46.640]  When Windows XP asks for an upgrade, it sends Microsoft a list of all the soft software installed on the machine.
[01:36:49.550 --> 01:36:53.570]  Now, these spy features were not announced by Microsoft.
[01:36:53.810 --> 01:36:59.830]  People had to discover them through investigation, which was not always easy.
[01:37:01.850 --> 01:37:04.250]  There may be others, which we don't know about.
[01:37:05.390 --> 01:37:08.150]  But spying is not limited to Windows.
[01:37:08.550 --> 01:37:11.390]  Windows Media Player also spies on the user.
[01:37:11.570 --> 01:37:13.450]  It reports everything the user looks at.
[01:37:13.670 --> 01:37:14.910]  Total surveillance.
[01:37:15.730 --> 01:37:23.070]  But please, please don't think that this is something that only Microsoft, the great Satan, would do.
[01:37:23.570 --> 01:37:28.570]  Because, in fact, Real Player was the first such program to do this kind of spying.
[01:37:28.950 --> 01:37:32.010]  Total surveillance, reporting everything the user looks at.
[01:37:32.270 --> 01:37:34.810]  And all Microsoft did was imitate them.
[01:37:39.160 --> 01:37:44.960]  Lots of companies spy on the user, and interestingly, the TiVo spies on the user in the same way.
[01:37:45.600 --> 01:37:47.740]  Reporting everything the user looks at.
[01:37:48.160 --> 01:37:53.840]  Now, this is particularly interesting, because the TiVo uses a lot of free software.
[01:37:54.100 --> 01:37:57.240]  It has a small GNU plus Linux operating system in it.
[01:37:58.240 --> 01:38:04.960]  And when it was first released, a lot of people in our community applauded it for using free software.
[01:38:05.180 --> 01:38:13.340]  But it also contains non-free software, and it has malicious features, like spying on the user, and digital restrictions management.
[01:38:13.720 --> 01:38:26.420]  And this shows that to use free software, which implicitly means to use some free software, some of the time, is not a sufficient target.
[01:38:26.780 --> 01:38:34.800]  The target has to be to use only software that respects your freedom, so that you have full freedom.
[01:38:35.920 --> 01:38:37.760]  Anything less is insufficient.
[01:38:38.880 --> 01:38:45.220]  And the TiVo is also an example of another malicious practice that I'll talk about later.
[01:38:48.040 --> 01:38:51.920]  But malicious features go beyond spying on the user.
[01:38:52.220 --> 01:38:55.380]  There's also the functionality of refusing to function.
[01:38:58.140 --> 01:39:02.500]  Where the program says, I don't want to show you this file.
[01:39:02.820 --> 01:39:06.020]  I don't want to let you copy part of this file.
[01:39:06.240 --> 01:39:11.240]  I'm not going to print this file for you because I don't like you enough.
[01:39:13.600 --> 01:39:28.380]  This is DRM, Digital Restrictions Management, or Digital Handcuffs, where the program is designed specifically to restrict you for the sake of someone else.
[01:39:29.400 --> 01:39:34.380]  It becomes a simple instrument of someone else's power over you.
[01:39:35.920 --> 01:39:39.000]  And then there are back doors.
[01:39:39.740 --> 01:39:48.700]  There was a proprietary program called Interbase, which was liberated, and then the users could see that it contained a back door.
[01:39:49.140 --> 01:39:50.540]  And they could fix it.
[01:39:51.260 --> 01:39:56.860]  Presumably it had the same back door when it was proprietary, but the users couldn't see it or fix it.
[01:39:58.180 --> 01:40:04.980]  Another proprietary program that has a back door that you may have heard of is called Windows XP.
[01:40:06.100 --> 01:40:18.700]  You see, when Windows XP asks for an upgrade, Microsoft can identify the user, which means that they can deliver that user an upgrade designed specifically for him.
[01:40:19.000 --> 01:40:26.880]  They can take total control of that person's machine in any way they want, and that user has very little recourse.
[01:40:27.780 --> 01:40:33.020]  So, we know about this back door because we can deduce it from known facts.
[01:40:33.260 --> 01:40:35.480]  But there might be others.
[01:40:36.420 --> 01:40:44.020]  Microsoft was caught in 1999 having put a back door in a piece of server software for the NSA.
[01:40:44.900 --> 01:40:50.040]  And there might be back doors introduced by others that Microsoft doesn't know about.
[01:40:50.280 --> 01:41:04.400]  For instance, some programmers in India working on the development of Windows XP were arrested and accused of working for Al Qaeda, trying to introduce another back door that Microsoft wasn't supposed to know about.
[01:41:05.180 --> 01:41:07.500]  Well, apparently that attempt failed.
[01:41:08.660 --> 01:41:10.900]  Was there another attempt that succeeded?
[01:41:11.600 --> 01:41:13.000]  we can't tell.
[01:41:14.640 --> 01:41:22.740]  Now, there are various kinds of malicious features that proprietary software developers can put in.
[01:41:23.280 --> 01:41:26.260]  But not all of them do so.
[01:41:26.520 --> 01:41:27.940]  Some do and some don't.
[01:41:28.540 --> 01:41:31.740]  Of course, you can't necessarily tell which is which.
[01:41:32.240 --> 01:41:38.160]  So, the result is that all proprietary software is just trust-trust-me software.
[01:41:39.700 --> 01:41:47.080]  Where you surrender to a blind faith in a developer which you know might not deserve it.
[01:41:48.580 --> 01:41:51.680]  But what are the ones that don't put in malicious features?
[01:41:52.320 --> 01:41:56.220]  Well, they may be honest, but they're still human.
[01:41:56.420 --> 01:41:57.400]  So, they make mistakes.
[01:41:57.860 --> 01:42:00.000]  And that means that their code has bugs.
[01:42:01.580 --> 01:42:17.640]  And the user of a program without freedom number one, the freedom to study and change the source code, is just as helpless confronting an unintended error in the code as she is confronting a deliberate misfeature.
[01:42:20.120 --> 01:42:25.020]  The user of a non-free program is a prisoner of his software.
[01:42:27.380 --> 01:42:31.760]  Now, we, the developers of free software are also human.
[01:42:32.160 --> 01:42:34.280]  So, our code has errors too.
[01:42:34.600 --> 01:42:36.960]  Every non-trivial program has bugs.
[01:42:37.220 --> 01:42:40.220]  The difference is that we respect your freedom.
[01:42:40.800 --> 01:42:44.620]  So, when you find errors in our code, you can fix them.
[01:42:46.000 --> 01:42:48.300]  We can't make ourselves perfect.
[01:42:48.560 --> 01:42:51.320]  We can treat you decently.
[01:42:54.990 --> 01:43:02.850]  And that was just a small part of the keynote address by Richard Stallman at Hope No.
[01:43:02.970 --> 01:43:04.630]  6 in the year 2006.
[01:43:04.630 --> 01:43:16.710]  One of many talks that you will receive on either a DVD or a flash drive when you call 516-620-3602 and ask for the Hope Conference keynote series.
[01:43:17.250 --> 01:43:21.230]  The pledge is $75, 516-620-3602.
[01:43:21.230 --> 01:43:27.470]  And you will have some of the most interesting talks that have been given at hacker conferences over the past few decades.
[01:43:28.030 --> 01:43:31.270]  A lot of history, a lot of education, a lot of controversy.
[01:43:31.270 --> 01:43:32.450]  It's all there.
[01:43:32.970 --> 01:43:43.090]  And all for you to listen to, to watch, to share, because these media that we are giving you are completely open to copying.
[01:43:44.210 --> 01:43:47.010]  516-620-3602.
[01:43:47.110 --> 01:43:48.450]  That was Richard Stallman.
[01:43:48.570 --> 01:43:56.170]  We also have Jella Biaffer, Aaron Magruda, Edward Snowden, Kevin Mitnick, so many.
[01:43:56.790 --> 01:43:58.570]  I'm at a loss just naming them all.
[01:43:58.630 --> 01:44:01.630]  Cory Doctorow, of course, who we just had on a little while ago.
[01:44:02.110 --> 01:44:07.390]  There was just an incredible variety of people that have spoken at our conferences.
[01:44:07.390 --> 01:44:12.690]  And these are the keynote addresses and the featured talks, numbering well over 20.
[01:44:13.470 --> 01:44:18.950]  And they're all yours for a pledge of $75, 516-620-3602.
[01:44:19.130 --> 01:44:22.670]  And listening to these again, I mean, that Stallman talk was from 11 years ago now.
[01:44:22.670 --> 01:44:28.290]  But, you know, you can laugh and go, he's talking about the ancient Windows XP and RealPlayer and things like that.
[01:44:28.410 --> 01:44:32.530]  But the things he's talking about, the concepts he's talking about still apply today more than ever.
[01:44:32.730 --> 01:44:33.030]  Mm-hmm.
[01:44:33.270 --> 01:44:39.650]  The behavior of software that he's going over, you know, has just grown exponentially in that direction since then.
[01:44:39.650 --> 01:44:56.330]  Think about how he's talking about computers, but he would argue, I would say, I mean, the entire construction, these walled gardens that are our cell phones, they are native systems that only run apps of a certain kind.
[01:44:56.330 --> 01:45:13.170]  And just thinking about the entire operating system, not really respecting your freedom, and then all the apps you put on that system, also not respecting your freedom or not allowing you to audit the software and on and on as far as the four things that he was listing off.
[01:45:13.270 --> 01:45:14.330]  That's so crucial.
[01:45:14.510 --> 01:45:16.630]  And yet, a lot of people have accepted it.
[01:45:16.750 --> 01:45:19.890]  It's really empowering, but also scary when you reflect.
[01:45:19.890 --> 01:45:23.530]  Well, it's also really interesting because we say it's 11 years old.
[01:45:23.530 --> 01:45:42.170]  We say it's in the past, but here he is, he's talking about the NSA, doing things with Microsoft, and really, you know, when Edward Snowden, another one of our speakers, revealed all of this a few years ago, it wasn't so much a surprise for the hacker community as confirmation of what we suspected all along.
[01:45:42.310 --> 01:45:48.990]  And you'll see this in many talks where people are kind of discussing this as if, yeah, this is what we believe they're doing.
[01:45:48.990 --> 01:45:52.870]  We believe they're spying on us, and this is the technology they could use.
[01:45:52.870 --> 01:45:54.210]  You will see so much of that.
[01:45:54.330 --> 01:46:01.410]  You will say, my God, this is, you know, the early part of the century, and people got it then before the public ever knew about it.
[01:46:01.590 --> 01:46:04.730]  So call now, 516-620-3602.
[01:46:04.730 --> 01:46:08.350]  We only have a couple of minutes left, and we need to get more people calling in.
[01:46:08.510 --> 01:46:10.230]  Honestly, there have not been enough people calling.
[01:46:10.230 --> 01:46:19.610]  516-620-3602, and pledge $75 for the Hope Conference keynote series in either DVD or flash drive format.
[01:46:20.050 --> 01:46:23.730]  We also have the Edward Snowden book, Walk Away.
[01:46:24.230 --> 01:46:26.710]  Not Edward Snowden, the Cory Doctorow book, I'm sorry.
[01:46:27.110 --> 01:46:28.390]  With an intro.
[01:46:28.610 --> 01:46:30.310]  An intro by Edward Snowden, yes.
[01:46:30.590 --> 01:46:35.330]  In fact, they're talking right now at the New York Public Library, Edward Snowden and Cory Doctorow, so that's kind of interesting right there.
[01:46:35.330 --> 01:46:44.650]  But for a pledge of $75, you'll get your own autographed copy of Walk Away, the Cory Doctorow book, along with a pocket multi-tool for your convenience.
[01:46:45.010 --> 01:46:45.930]  Pledge of $75.
[01:46:46.190 --> 01:46:48.330]  The phone number, 516-620-3602.
[01:46:48.950 --> 01:46:49.610]  This is off the hook.
[01:46:49.730 --> 01:46:53.490]  We're not on next week, and I hope we'll be on the week after that.
[01:46:53.630 --> 01:46:55.850]  But, you know, it kind of depends on how well we do.
[01:46:56.030 --> 01:47:00.530]  If we don't do very well, then probably something else will take our place.
[01:47:00.530 --> 01:47:06.270]  But if there's a strong showing there, we'll be able to bring you more interesting content in a couple of weeks as well.
[01:47:06.610 --> 01:47:08.530]  516-620-3602.
[01:47:09.390 --> 01:47:15.530]  If you don't have a phone for some reason, you can always go to the website, give2wbai.org.
[01:47:16.110 --> 01:47:17.590]  But please call now.
[01:47:17.750 --> 01:47:18.210]  Please.
[01:47:18.450 --> 01:47:21.650]  Any contribution is really, really welcome.
[01:47:21.970 --> 01:47:26.290]  Also, our BAI Buddy program is, I believe, still active.
[01:47:26.290 --> 01:47:30.690]  That's a way you can participate in these fundraisers every single month.
[01:47:30.870 --> 01:47:32.890]  Small contributions are great for that.
[01:47:33.010 --> 01:47:36.430]  You know you'll meet an annual contribution level.
[01:47:36.690 --> 01:47:43.350]  And that every single month, you are making a gesture that this is valuable to you.
[01:47:43.490 --> 01:47:44.610]  That you listen.
[01:47:44.610 --> 01:47:48.630]  That you want information and free thought on the airwaves.
[01:47:49.090 --> 01:47:50.730]  Please support Off the Hook.
[01:47:50.910 --> 01:47:52.190]  Support WBAI.
[01:47:52.190 --> 01:47:53.350]  Call right now.
[01:47:53.690 --> 01:47:56.910]  516-620-3602.
[01:47:57.350 --> 01:48:00.970]  There's actually another method, too, that has been just introduced to us.
[01:48:01.130 --> 01:48:02.330]  It's a short code, right?
[01:48:02.370 --> 01:48:02.630]  It's a short...
[01:48:02.630 --> 01:48:07.110]  You can text the letters WBAI to this number.
[01:48:08.390 --> 01:48:08.830]  41444.
[01:48:09.730 --> 01:48:11.990]  41444 is the number to text WBAI to.
[01:48:12.210 --> 01:48:15.350]  And I believe you'll be prompted for your contribution value.
[01:48:15.530 --> 01:48:15.850]  Yes.
[01:48:16.150 --> 01:48:18.050]  We will play with this ourselves.
[01:48:18.110 --> 01:48:19.050]  Yeah, we haven't experimented.
[01:48:19.050 --> 01:48:19.710]  In a future show.
[01:48:19.870 --> 01:48:20.770]  We think that's how it works.
[01:48:20.770 --> 01:48:21.050]  Yes.
[01:48:21.190 --> 01:48:26.250]  Please report how it works and give generously whatever method you choose.
[01:48:26.410 --> 01:48:26.630]  Yes.
[01:48:26.850 --> 01:48:28.410]  But only use your phone.
[01:48:28.550 --> 01:48:29.750]  Don't use someone else's phone.
[01:48:30.310 --> 01:48:30.790]  All right.
[01:48:31.130 --> 01:48:33.630]  516-620-3602.
[01:48:33.810 --> 01:48:37.570]  And we should also point out, as we said earlier, we're caught up on the previous premiums.
[01:48:37.630 --> 01:48:43.110]  So we look forward to supplying these premiums that you're donating for now in a timely manner.
[01:48:43.770 --> 01:48:51.430]  If there is anyone out there, just in general, if you feel maybe something is missing, bear with us.
[01:48:51.590 --> 01:48:53.650]  Let us know if you're certain of that.
[01:48:54.010 --> 01:48:58.210]  There may be an item, if you're expecting something, on its way right now.
[01:48:58.210 --> 01:48:59.250]  It may be in the mail.
[01:48:59.350 --> 01:49:06.270]  But on the off chance you think somehow your order or contribution had been overlooked in the past, please send us a reminder.
[01:49:06.270 --> 01:49:07.630]  Later, we'll take a look at it.
[01:49:07.710 --> 01:49:09.670]  But as far as we know, everybody's taken care of.
[01:49:09.730 --> 01:49:11.830]  And we're really happy to report that.
[01:49:12.050 --> 01:49:14.390]  So if there is anything outstanding, we'll address it.
[01:49:14.490 --> 01:49:19.030]  But we're really happy to say we're as caught up as we think we can be.
[01:49:19.850 --> 01:49:21.590]  516-620-3602.
[01:49:21.730 --> 01:49:26.050]  Give us something else to catch up to because we will send you your premium as quickly as we possibly can.
[01:49:26.190 --> 01:49:27.870]  But you have to call us first and pledge for it.
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[01:49:29.810 --> 01:49:36.510]  We take all the credit cards or you can pay by check or you can text to 41444 or go to give to WBAI.org.
[01:49:36.770 --> 01:49:38.230]  Whatever you do, please do it.
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[01:49:40.750 --> 01:49:45.630]  Freedom of speech, technology, education, controversy, debate, discussion.
[01:49:46.450 --> 01:49:47.350]  You name it.
[01:49:47.410 --> 01:49:49.370]  It's all here at WBAI.
[01:49:49.570 --> 01:49:51.510]  516-620-3602.
[01:49:51.590 --> 01:49:54.630]  Rob, have there been any tweets sent to us?
[01:49:54.710 --> 01:49:55.930]  Hacker Radio Show, we asked.
[01:49:56.030 --> 01:49:58.130]  We don't want to forget to read people's tweets this week.
[01:49:58.130 --> 01:49:59.670]  We're probably not going to have enough time for calls.
[01:49:59.850 --> 01:50:02.330]  No, we won't have time for calls, but we do have time for tweets.
[01:50:02.430 --> 01:50:03.610]  There have not been as yet.
[01:50:03.870 --> 01:50:04.830]  Twitter's been rather quiet.
[01:50:05.290 --> 01:50:06.270]  That's very disappointing.
[01:50:06.270 --> 01:50:11.990]  I thought Twitter was supposed to be this revolution in social activity.
[01:50:12.270 --> 01:50:12.570]  Yes.
[01:50:13.170 --> 01:50:17.410]  I'm more often disappointed by Twitter and the lack of response than I am amazed.
[01:50:18.410 --> 01:50:22.270]  The responses happen when you're like a Kardashian or something.
[01:50:22.510 --> 01:50:23.870]  When you're a superstar.
[01:50:24.150 --> 01:50:24.870]  We're not shallow enough.
[01:50:24.970 --> 01:50:27.150]  We're not shallow enough for Twitter to work for us.
[01:50:27.150 --> 01:50:28.530]  Yeah, we've got to be more shallow.
[01:50:28.810 --> 01:50:30.850]  We're still kind of figuring out this whole social media thing.
[01:50:30.930 --> 01:50:33.150]  If you think there's somewhere else we should be, let us know.
[01:50:33.310 --> 01:50:34.690]  OTH at 2600.com.
[01:50:34.950 --> 01:50:36.890]  Yeah, but we can only spread ourselves so thin, you know?
[01:50:37.010 --> 01:50:37.670]  This is...
[01:50:37.670 --> 01:50:39.110]  It doesn't take much.
[01:50:39.250 --> 01:50:42.570]  It doesn't take anything, really, just to tweet to Hacker Radio Show.
[01:50:42.710 --> 01:50:43.010]  This is true.
[01:50:43.230 --> 01:50:44.410]  Hey, guys, what's up?
[01:50:44.470 --> 01:50:45.170]  Or something like that.
[01:50:45.330 --> 01:50:49.630]  But if everyone's agreed to ditch Twitter and move on to something else kind of on the download, let us know.
[01:50:49.770 --> 01:50:50.410]  We'd like to be in on that.
[01:50:50.410 --> 01:50:52.070]  Yeah, we're always the last to find out.
[01:50:53.290 --> 01:50:55.710]  516-620-3602.
[01:50:56.130 --> 01:50:59.610]  And of course, you can write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[01:51:00.430 --> 01:51:05.710]  We have another show coming in at 10 o'clock, and we have to kind of move out to let them set up.
[01:51:05.830 --> 01:51:08.970]  I understand they're building a power plant.
[01:51:09.070 --> 01:51:09.530]  I don't know.
[01:51:09.530 --> 01:51:15.670]  They're doing something constructive in the studio, and we don't want to be tripping them up in any way.
[01:51:16.420 --> 01:51:22.110]  So let's just say one more time that our phone number is 516-620-3602.
[01:51:22.150 --> 01:51:27.950]  We are offering the Hope Conference keynote series in either flash drive format or DVD format.
[01:51:28.650 --> 01:51:36.030]  Simply call 516-620-3602 and ask for the Hope Conference keynote series in the format of your choice.
[01:51:36.030 --> 01:51:42.310]  And we also have some copies of WalkAway, the Cory Doctorow autographed book.
[01:51:42.550 --> 01:51:48.090]  You can get your own copy if you call 516-620-3602, pledge $75.
[01:51:48.930 --> 01:51:56.550]  You'll get the autographed book, and you will also get a pocket multi-tool for all kinds of fun things.
[01:51:56.950 --> 01:51:59.590]  516-620-3602.
[01:51:59.730 --> 01:52:02.510]  And I'll also mention really quick, 2600 meetings this weekend.
[01:52:03.030 --> 01:52:04.530]  2600.com slash meetings.
[01:52:04.710 --> 01:52:05.350]  Find your local one.
[01:52:05.350 --> 01:52:06.010]  Oh, good gravy.
[01:52:06.130 --> 01:52:06.250]  Really?
[01:52:06.350 --> 01:52:06.890]  It's this Friday.
[01:52:07.110 --> 01:52:07.710]  Cinco de Mayo.
[01:52:07.890 --> 01:52:09.890]  The first Friday of the month is happening.
[01:52:10.290 --> 01:52:10.570]  Wow.
[01:52:10.750 --> 01:52:10.970]  Okay.
[01:52:11.290 --> 01:52:12.310]  Well, thank you for that, Rob.
[01:52:12.650 --> 01:52:13.870]  We've learned something else today.
[01:52:14.830 --> 01:52:16.230]  And I guess that's going to do it.
[01:52:17.150 --> 01:52:18.750]  Yeah, that's our closing theme for this week.
[01:52:19.610 --> 01:52:21.910]  Please write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[01:52:21.970 --> 01:52:26.570]  And in case you didn't hear the phone number, 516-620-3602.
[01:52:26.570 --> 01:52:28.330]  Please add your support.
[01:52:28.490 --> 01:52:28.750]  Good night.
[01:52:29.190 --> 01:52:30.270]  Listen to the ghost.
[01:52:32.110 --> 01:52:33.570]  Story out.
[01:52:35.290 --> 01:52:37.210]  Lived in Mexico.
[01:52:42.120 --> 01:52:43.640]  Left my home.
[01:52:45.500 --> 01:52:47.160]  Part of the city.
[01:52:48.840 --> 01:52:50.500]  Serve with my brothers.
[01:52:55.380 --> 01:52:58.740]  Stand me straight against the nearest wall.
[01:52:58.740 --> 01:53:00.720]  Line up, you're brave.
[01:53:01.060 --> 01:53:01.060]  As
[01:53:06.750 --> 01:53:08.790]  a fusillade, oh.
[01:53:09.490 --> 01:53:11.050]  Better allers.
[01:53:12.230 --> 01:53:14.410]  Bound up my arms with.
[01:53:15.730 --> 01:53:17.750]  Officer came, he said.
[01:53:29.210 --> 01:53:30.630]  Heart beat on.
[01:53:32.050 --> 01:53:34.110]  The rhythm of life.
[01:53:35.910 --> 01:53:37.270]  Stand me straight.
[01:53:38.890 --> 01:53:40.890]  Line up, you're brave.
[01:53:42.170 --> 01:53:43.090]  Stand me straight.
[01:53:43.090 --> 01:53:44.030]  Ten good shots.
[01:53:49.010 --> 01:53:50.710]  Stand me straight.
[01:53:52.290 --> 01:53:54.250]  Line up, you're brave.
[01:53:55.550 --> 01:53:57.470]  Ten good shots.
[01:54:03.070 --> 01:54:04.370]  Bound to the ground.
[01:54:05.710 --> 01:54:07.470]  One last shot.
[01:54:29.820 --> 01:54:30.980]  Stand me straight.
[01:54:32.580 --> 01:54:34.540]  Line up, you're brave.
[01:54:42.820 --> 01:54:44.380]  Stand me straight.
[01:54:46.000 --> 01:54:47.980]  Line up, you're brave.
[01:54:49.440 --> 01:54:51.200]  Ten good shots.
[01:54:56.410 --> 01:54:57.830]  Stand me straight.
[01:54:59.730 --> 01:55:01.390]  Line up your brain.
[01:55:02.870 --> 01:55:04.570]  Ten good shots.
[01:55:06.390 --> 01:55:08.890]  They call me Elf, use it up.