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[00:32.240 --> 00:46.820]  And you are indeed listening to radio station WBAI 99.5 FM in the New York area, wbai.org on the internet area, where the time is just about 8pm.
[00:47.400 --> 00:50.200]  It's time for another exciting edition of Off the Hook.
[02:08.370 --> 02:11.490]  A very good evening to you, all of you.
[02:11.610 --> 02:12.810]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:13.230 --> 02:13.910]  Rob T.
[02:14.030 --> 02:19.290]  Firefly here with you on this Wednesday evening, where I'm joined in the studio by Alex.
[02:19.550 --> 02:20.190]  Good evening.
[02:21.290 --> 02:24.470]  And where I'm joined on the phone by Emanuel.
[02:25.470 --> 02:25.870]  Hello.
[02:27.490 --> 02:28.710]  And is Kyle with you?
[02:29.570 --> 02:33.410]  He's actually in the other room, and he might be joining us a little bit later with some updates.
[02:33.490 --> 02:34.850]  I think we only have one phone here.
[02:36.170 --> 02:38.330]  I hope there's no fighting going on over the phone.
[02:39.130 --> 02:39.910]  No, not yet.
[02:41.250 --> 02:41.650]  Okay.
[02:41.650 --> 02:44.030]  Well, plenty of things going on.
[02:44.190 --> 02:46.790]  First of all, we haven't spoken to you in a while.
[02:47.210 --> 02:48.570]  Whereabouts are you guys?
[02:48.570 --> 02:49.390]  Well, yeah.
[02:49.510 --> 02:52.310]  I believe the last time you spoke to us, we were...
[02:52.310 --> 02:56.430]  Well, I was mistakenly thinking we were in Southern California, and we were actually in Seattle.
[02:56.890 --> 03:00.050]  We were so warm and muggy that I just got confused.
[03:00.850 --> 03:07.190]  And also the smog from the forest fires from Canada was moving in, so it was a really interesting time.
[03:07.470 --> 03:10.270]  Since then, though, we did go down to Southern California.
[03:11.070 --> 03:16.310]  In fact, we passed through Oakland on the way at the Bay Area, and I really...
[03:16.310 --> 03:18.730]  I am so impressed with Oakland as a city.
[03:19.350 --> 03:22.370]  It was never one of my favorite places before, but now it is.
[03:22.890 --> 03:30.630]  So we hung out there for quite a bit and just kind of met a lot of people and had a lot of fun times.
[03:31.270 --> 03:38.850]  From there, we went down to Los Angeles and then took a train all the way out to where we are currently, which is New Orleans.
[03:39.870 --> 03:40.590]  New Orleans.
[03:41.370 --> 03:44.010]  Yeah, and I got to tell you, this city is amazing.
[03:44.250 --> 03:46.130]  It's very hot and muggy, for one thing.
[03:46.630 --> 03:52.130]  But the spirit here is just something like, you know, you're just not used to.
[03:52.790 --> 04:03.990]  A lot of hardship, a lot of struggle just to get through a day, but people really are very friendly and open and have a great sense of humor, too.
[04:04.050 --> 04:07.710]  In fact, I found that to be true throughout much of the South.
[04:07.710 --> 04:13.410]  We did some traveling in the South to see the eclipse, which, by the way, did you guys see the eclipse on Monday?
[04:14.130 --> 04:15.230]  I did, indeed.
[04:15.450 --> 04:24.310]  In fact, I was out on Madison Avenue right outside our office, which had a perfect vantage point for where the sun was in the sky.
[04:25.910 --> 04:28.010]  And we drastically overpaid.
[04:28.230 --> 04:32.750]  We got price-gouged for a last-minute pair of glasses to watch the eclipse.
[04:33.410 --> 04:34.070]  How much?
[04:34.510 --> 04:35.650]  You don't want to know.
[04:35.990 --> 04:36.870]  No, I do want to know.
[04:36.910 --> 04:37.710]  You do really want to know?
[04:37.770 --> 04:38.910]  Are you sure you really want to know?
[04:39.110 --> 04:39.590]  Oh, come on.
[04:39.670 --> 04:40.370]  You can't ask me this.
[04:40.370 --> 04:42.790]  You're going to make me look like a sucker on the radio here?
[04:43.310 --> 04:46.670]  Well, you don't have to say you're the one that actually handed over the cash.
[04:46.770 --> 04:47.570]  It could be somebody else.
[04:48.290 --> 04:49.010]  $69.99.
[04:49.530 --> 04:50.410]  Oh, my God.
[04:50.510 --> 04:56.290]  And the thing is, well, I mean, you needed them, because in New York it was not a total eclipse.
[04:56.550 --> 05:09.610]  What we did was, we took the train into New Orleans, and then we rented a car, and then we figured, you know what, we're just going to drive up until we get into that narrow 60-mile band somewhere where the weather seems to be okay.
[05:09.890 --> 05:12.510]  And that put us in an area near Nashville.
[05:12.650 --> 05:18.490]  In fact, we wound up in this amazing little town called Goodletsville, which is a few miles away from Nashville.
[05:19.250 --> 05:21.970]  And we just basically set up camp there.
[05:22.070 --> 05:27.990]  Now, we had to stay up all night because we couldn't stay in a hotel room because they were charging $800 a night for a hotel room.
[05:28.090 --> 05:33.390]  So, you know, you would have been price gouged if you went out to Tennessee as well.
[05:33.610 --> 05:35.850]  So don't feel too bad about that.
[05:36.110 --> 05:37.070]  Everybody took advantage of it.
[05:37.110 --> 05:39.170]  I feel like we did something of a public service.
[05:39.170 --> 05:48.410]  My law partner, Justin, and I were out on Madison Avenue, and we must have let easily 75 to 100 people take a look at the eclipse through our glasses as well.
[05:48.530 --> 05:55.310]  So even though we got ripped off, we felt like it was worth it because we were able to spread the joy a little bit.
[05:55.590 --> 06:09.250]  Well, Alex, I have to tell you, though, and this is not to make people feel bad there, but going into the path of totality is completely different than what you guys saw with the partial eclipse.
[06:09.370 --> 06:15.330]  Now, I'd never been in the path of a total eclipse before, of the sun, that is.
[06:15.790 --> 06:21.250]  So this was not something that I really... I didn't know what was going to happen.
[06:22.230 --> 06:24.290]  We couldn't find the glasses either.
[06:24.470 --> 06:34.870]  We were driving all the way from New Orleans up to the Nashville area, and we called so many different places, and we were laughed at so hard.
[06:35.490 --> 06:36.750]  No one had the glasses.
[06:37.030 --> 06:40.770]  In fact, some places even would answer the phone saying, Oh, we don't have any glasses.
[06:40.770 --> 06:41.530]  How can I help you?
[06:43.010 --> 06:46.670]  Because everybody was calling for these damn glasses, and we should have gotten them before.
[06:46.670 --> 06:50.510]  We didn't think that, you know, it would be that big a deal, but it was.
[06:51.290 --> 07:00.530]  Fortunately, though, when we were in this amazing town of Goodlettsville, Tennessee, we went to a local breakfast place and just happened to ask the waitress, and she said, Oh, you know what?
[07:00.530 --> 07:03.670]  The Ace Hardware store down the block just got 4,000 of the things.
[07:03.950 --> 07:16.590]  And so we raced down there, and there was a line that we had to wait on the line for about 45 minutes, and we were able to get our glasses for, well, a bit more than they should have cost, I think.
[07:16.710 --> 07:18.490]  Would you like to hear how much of a sucker I was?
[07:18.830 --> 07:19.190]  Absolutely.
[07:20.270 --> 07:20.990]  Six dollars.
[07:21.930 --> 07:24.910]  Okay, so we're ten times more of a sucker.
[07:24.910 --> 07:26.910]  They should have cost 4.99, okay?
[07:27.030 --> 07:28.310]  I'm sorry, I looked it up.
[07:28.610 --> 07:31.450]  See, I'm going to tell you guys now how much of a sucker I was.
[07:32.010 --> 07:38.110]  When the partial eclipse was going on, I had one of those subscription cards that comes tucked into a magazine.
[07:38.330 --> 07:39.210]  You get it for free.
[07:39.570 --> 07:40.550]  I had one of those.
[07:40.550 --> 07:44.810]  I poked it with a pin, which I just had around the house, so I also didn't pay for that.
[07:44.810 --> 07:52.670]  And then I held it above another sheet of paper so I could look at the eclipse pinhole camera style, and I leaned out my window and had a great view of it.
[07:53.090 --> 08:00.570]  You know, people might laugh, but I actually do that when the sun isn't being eclipsed, and I get a great view of the sun on a piece of paper anytime I want.
[08:01.730 --> 08:02.090]  Excellent.
[08:02.350 --> 08:04.750]  We're just joined by Voltaire here in the studio.
[08:05.110 --> 08:05.890]  Hi, Voltaire.
[08:05.950 --> 08:06.370]  How are you?
[08:06.470 --> 08:07.330]  Hey, sorry I'm late.
[08:07.330 --> 08:26.230]  But just to continue what I was saying about the eclipse, when we managed to hang out in Goodlettsville and basically hang out in the parking lot of a supermarket, we had the glasses and we watched a bigger bite of the sun get taken every few minutes.
[08:26.710 --> 08:43.130]  But then there comes the period, and a lot of people don't know this, because when totality happens, when the moon actually does go completely in front of the sun, which coincidentally happens to be just the right size to cover the sun, I'm not quite sure how that all got worked out,
[08:43.210 --> 08:44.810]  but it's pretty amazing.
[08:45.210 --> 08:52.430]  But when that moment happens, when the moon is in front, that's when it's safe to take off your glasses and look directly at it.
[08:53.230 --> 08:55.510]  And that's what we did at that moment.
[08:55.510 --> 09:04.550]  And I have to tell you, it was one of the most emotional experiences I think I've ever felt, because there you are, you're looking up at the sun, except it's not the sun anymore.
[09:04.910 --> 09:15.050]  It's this alien thing in the sky that just looks so incredibly different than anything you ever experienced, except maybe on a science fiction show.
[09:15.710 --> 09:19.810]  Just a black disc with a brilliant white light around it.
[09:20.190 --> 09:22.670]  And that lasted for about two and a half minutes.
[09:22.670 --> 09:28.910]  And you could just hear people cheering all throughout the neighborhood from miles around.
[09:28.910 --> 09:36.090]  And there was just this amazing sense of awe and reference for what was going on in the sky.
[09:36.450 --> 09:46.510]  And it's something that if you get a chance in 2024, when another one of these things happens in the United States, this one will be going from the southwest to the northeast, but not quite hitting New York.
[09:47.130 --> 09:54.210]  Do what you have to do to get to a place where this thing will be visible, hopefully with clear skies.
[09:54.410 --> 10:00.030]  For those of you in South America, there's another one in 2019, I believe.
[10:01.310 --> 10:03.530]  And there might be one in 2018, too.
[10:03.650 --> 10:07.650]  There are two of them coming up pretty soon.
[10:07.650 --> 10:10.510]  And they happen fairly frequently.
[10:10.550 --> 10:13.170]  They say it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
[10:13.610 --> 10:17.670]  Yeah, it's once-in-a-lifetime for a particular part of the world.
[10:18.030 --> 10:19.350]  But we can travel.
[10:19.470 --> 10:22.310]  We can go different places and experience these things.
[10:22.550 --> 10:23.970]  I've got to correct you slightly.
[10:24.370 --> 10:27.430]  In the 2024 eclipse, New York will be getting totality.
[10:27.610 --> 10:30.590]  It's way upstate New York, up in Appalachia, Syracuse, places like that.
[10:30.590 --> 10:40.750]  But if you can get a ride upstate from the New York metropolitan area and crash on someone's couch or something and do something to get up there, you can see a total eclipse right here in New York.
[10:41.210 --> 10:47.150]  Actually, Rob, you're correcting me on a different level, because when I say New York, of course, I only mean New York City.
[10:48.470 --> 10:50.310]  So I'm willing to do that.
[10:51.110 --> 10:56.310]  So I apologize to all the upstate New York listeners who might take offense at that.
[10:56.730 --> 10:59.250]  I mean, Emmanuel, it sounds like it was quite an experience.
[10:59.250 --> 11:09.210]  And I'd love the way that you had described it originally, too, which was venturing into the path of totality, which makes it sound like you're on some kind of Buddhist retreat.
[11:09.810 --> 11:12.430]  That's how everybody around was talking.
[11:12.470 --> 11:16.450]  And it really is the most incredible thing to be a part of that kind of a crowd.
[11:16.730 --> 11:21.950]  And I also have to say, you know, you might think that traveling through the Deep South, and it is the Deep South.
[11:22.130 --> 11:25.930]  I mean, we were going through the heart of Mississippi, Alabama.
[11:25.930 --> 11:29.970]  Alabama, you'd think that we would feel uncomfortable.
[11:30.210 --> 11:31.790]  And, you know, maybe a little bit we did.
[11:32.150 --> 11:47.250]  But once you start talking to people, and once you start experiencing things, you realize that there are these amazing enclaves of really amazing, cool people that are not the stereotypical Southerner.
[11:47.390 --> 11:49.190]  I don't even know if that's a real thing.
[11:50.610 --> 11:57.190]  It's something that I think we need to remember, especially in these troubled times, that things are bigger.
[11:57.310 --> 12:00.230]  Things are bigger than what you might be seeing on television.
[12:01.330 --> 12:06.050]  The hatred that's being spewed about, that kind of thing is the anomaly.
[12:06.390 --> 12:08.410]  And that's the kind of thing we all need to fight.
[12:08.590 --> 12:17.490]  But the normalcy is people communicating with each other, sharing common experiences, and celebrating differences.
[12:17.490 --> 12:22.970]  And that is just as alive in those places as it is in the places that we're familiar with.
[12:23.930 --> 12:25.410]  I entirely agree with you.
[12:25.670 --> 12:38.050]  You know, in New York, even though we were not in the path of totality, it still was this very unique bonding experience where, if you shared your glasses with a group of people, they were incredibly grateful.
[12:38.330 --> 12:39.950]  Everyone stared up at the sun.
[12:40.070 --> 12:42.730]  And it was really... it was still amazing to look at this.
[12:42.730 --> 12:47.450]  I mean, even just to have the ability to stare at the sun through these glasses is actually pretty cool.
[12:47.610 --> 12:52.190]  I think we're going to get our money's worth and just hang out on the street during, you know, around 2 p.m.
[12:52.270 --> 12:53.490]  and stare up at the sun every day.
[12:53.750 --> 12:56.450]  But it really was a sort of bonding experience.
[12:56.670 --> 12:57.370]  Everybody loved it.
[12:57.430 --> 13:03.670]  And I would say for about an hour or so, New York felt very much like a small community.
[13:03.890 --> 13:06.110]  Maybe it could have been a southern town.
[13:06.350 --> 13:07.230]  Everybody was talking.
[13:07.410 --> 13:09.490]  Everybody was gathering around corners.
[13:09.490 --> 13:11.750]  It was a really cool experience.
[13:12.250 --> 13:24.330]  And then after the effect wore off, it just sort of dissipated and went back to being the anonymous urban concrete jungle that it ordinarily is.
[13:24.930 --> 13:28.670]  Well, I think that New York is often like a small town.
[13:28.790 --> 13:31.270]  Actually, it's often like a series of small towns.
[13:31.590 --> 13:39.170]  And what I mean by that is you can go to a certain several square block radius and people know who you are if you hang out there frequently.
[13:39.930 --> 13:43.710]  And you see familiar sights and you just feel like you're in a small town.
[13:43.970 --> 13:47.050]  And I think that's something that follows us around no matter where we go.
[13:47.210 --> 13:51.350]  For me, I have the same experience of getting to meet my neighbors for once.
[13:51.590 --> 13:57.070]  But the last time that happened was during natural disasters like Hurricane Sandy and the earthquake.
[13:57.250 --> 14:00.630]  I think that was the last time I saw everybody to get there outside.
[14:01.190 --> 14:02.510]  Election Day, don't forget that.
[14:02.630 --> 14:05.070]  I met a lot of people on that disaster.
[14:05.750 --> 14:06.910]  Yeah, that's true.
[14:07.110 --> 14:10.290]  And you know, my neighborhood is very much like how you described it, too.
[14:10.430 --> 14:12.530]  People know each other down in the West Village.
[14:13.490 --> 14:15.230]  It really is very much a community.
[14:15.670 --> 14:18.270]  But to feel that in the business area...
[14:18.270 --> 14:20.110]  People know each other more in the East Village, okay?
[14:20.370 --> 14:20.890]  You think so?
[14:21.370 --> 14:22.990]  We're a lot friendlier over there.
[14:23.110 --> 14:24.250]  That's where the cheap drugs are.
[14:24.350 --> 14:24.790]  Just letting you know.
[14:25.450 --> 14:28.050]  Yeah, don't cross 6th Avenue, okay?
[14:28.050 --> 14:28.810]  That's all I've got to say.
[14:28.950 --> 14:29.350]  All right.
[14:29.430 --> 14:32.170]  Well, we'll meet somewhere in a dark alley one night.
[14:32.590 --> 14:33.290]  Yeah, in Jersey.
[14:33.290 --> 14:35.290]  If you're man enough to come back...
[14:36.250 --> 14:37.490]  Oh, okay.
[14:37.510 --> 14:38.330]  It's on.
[14:38.510 --> 14:39.330]  It is so on.
[14:39.510 --> 14:41.150]  We'll put on this rumble as it develops.
[14:42.170 --> 14:51.610]  But for now, there's been a lot going on this week in sort of the tech world and the world of political figures doing strange things.
[14:51.610 --> 15:01.290]  There was a story we were keeping an eye on where the DOJ had requested the IP addresses that visited an anti-Trump site called DisruptJ20.
[15:01.330 --> 15:04.910]  That's DisruptJ20.org.
[15:05.130 --> 15:13.910]  The Department of Justice wanted just DreamHost, which was the web host hosting this website, to just turn over the pile of IP addresses, everyone who accessed the site.
[15:14.790 --> 15:19.250]  DreamHost didn't take too kindly to this idea and went public with it.
[15:19.250 --> 15:23.630]  But a recent story says that the DOJ has just dropped the request for IP addresses.
[15:24.750 --> 15:32.430]  The government said in a brief release Tuesday that it has, quote, no interest in the 1.3 million IP addresses related to the website DisruptJ20.org.
[15:32.430 --> 15:38.630]  It says it's solely focused on information that could constitute evidence relating to criminal rioting on Inauguration Day.
[15:39.430 --> 15:41.810]  You know, I'm on that site right now, actually.
[15:41.950 --> 15:43.250]  It hasn't been updated since February.
[15:44.110 --> 15:45.630]  And it's kind of interesting, too.
[15:45.710 --> 15:47.750]  Maybe a listener can explain what this is.
[15:47.830 --> 15:55.390]  But if I hit the down arrow key, I get a little dialog box that says, End Reached with an OK, which I've never seen before.
[15:56.090 --> 15:57.810]  It's probably some Drupal thing.
[15:58.810 --> 16:00.970]  But, yeah, you know, what are they thinking?
[16:01.270 --> 16:05.850]  What are these people in government thinking they can just get away with?
[16:05.850 --> 16:12.910]  Yeah, we're going to hand over the IP of everybody who visited this website just because you say so.
[16:13.050 --> 16:15.570]  And what exactly are you going to do with that information?
[16:15.830 --> 16:21.190]  It's just, you know, more and more people need to visit these sites in order to thwart these kinds of efforts.
[16:21.710 --> 16:25.170]  Well, it's somewhat more nefarious than that, too.
[16:25.290 --> 16:27.690]  And even though they dropped the request, this is actually...
[16:27.690 --> 16:32.430]  It has somewhat gotten worse over the last, I would say, 24 hours.
[16:32.430 --> 16:35.130]  If you look at the reply brief filed, and I think it's a D.C.
[16:35.270 --> 16:37.330]  Superior Court that was filed...
[16:37.330 --> 16:38.950]  I think it was today, actually.
[16:39.630 --> 16:42.410]  And I believe that there may be a hearing on this tomorrow.
[16:42.890 --> 16:46.510]  The government did, in fact, drop its request for the IP addresses.
[16:46.510 --> 17:03.550]  But there's still plenty of other data on this website or relating to the website that could really negatively affect and have a chilling effect on users' rights, including privacy, freedom of association, and even, to, I think, a large extent, freedom of the press.
[17:04.330 --> 17:09.450]  In particular, the government, what they did here, it's really kind of tricky.
[17:09.590 --> 17:23.850]  They dropped the request for the IP addresses of the 1.3 million people who visited this, I think, since it was July 2016 through January 20th, 2017, obviously, when the riots were happening.
[17:23.850 --> 17:37.350]  But what they did was so nefarious, because the search warrant issued upon certain facts and circumstances to which a law enforcement official has to submit a sworn statement, an affidavit in support of a search warrant.
[17:37.470 --> 17:44.090]  That then goes in front of a judge, and the judge says, well, yeah, I believe there's probable cause for this, so I'm going to issue a search warrant.
[17:44.090 --> 17:59.890]  So, in withdrawing these IP address requests, they actually added to the search warrant additional crimes for which they're going to be seeking evidence, without having gone back in front of a judge, without having issued a new affidavit from a law enforcement official,
[18:00.350 --> 18:06.010]  and without any determination about probable cause as it relates to these new offenses.
[18:06.010 --> 18:13.970]  And that's the subject of the reply briefs, so what looked like a victory actually turned out to be something a little bit more sinister here.
[18:14.590 --> 18:34.250]  I think there's, you know, major procedural issues with that, and it's extremely dangerous, because if you're seeking evidence of a crime with respect to organizing a riot, you may not be looking for IP addresses, but they are certainly going to be looking for things like posts on a message board,
[18:34.250 --> 18:43.670]  and even the contents of email addresses that are hosted at that particular domain name, disruptj20.org.
[18:43.830 --> 18:56.110]  So, anybody that had an email address on that domain name could find themselves, on the wrong end of this particular search warrant, having all of their email traffic disclosed over to the government.
[18:56.110 --> 19:08.190]  And the way in which these electronic search warrants generally work is that the government is given fairly broad authority to acquire a huge amount of data.
[19:08.390 --> 19:10.310]  So, they work generally in two steps.
[19:10.430 --> 19:25.490]  The government goes for a warrant, they get the warrant issued, and then data is just dumped onto the government, and then they search for the particular data that was the subject of the search warrant, which, in my opinion, is a really flawed process to begin with,
[19:25.530 --> 19:28.750]  because there are ways in which you can sift through this data.
[19:28.950 --> 19:29.970]  It's 2017.
[19:29.970 --> 19:31.470]  They don't need a huge data dump.
[19:31.950 --> 19:35.030]  And why were they looking for the IP addresses originally, anyhow?
[19:35.790 --> 19:44.850]  I think it's particularly telling, too, that DreamHost, the website hosting company, I believe, over in California, has taken a real stance against this.
[19:44.850 --> 19:51.710]  And I think they should be applauded for doing so, because it takes real balls to stand up to a DOJ-issued search warrant.
[19:51.910 --> 19:54.310]  They just said, no, we're not going to do it.
[19:54.490 --> 19:59.890]  And then the government, the procedural posture of this case was that the government filed a motion.
[20:00.070 --> 20:05.310]  Essentially, it's in order to show cause why they should not be compelled to comply with the search warrant.
[20:05.310 --> 20:13.590]  And then that resulted in these series of briefs, the withdrawal of the original search warrant, this addition of a new attachment that includes additional crimes.
[20:13.810 --> 20:24.650]  The additional crimes for which they're looking for evidence have to deal with the destruction of property, actually, as opposed to simply rioting.
[20:24.770 --> 20:27.870]  So this is definitely expanding the scope of the original warrant.
[20:27.870 --> 20:30.610]  And it's, I think, really, really problematic.
[20:31.890 --> 20:42.870]  What I don't understand, Alex, is how they are relating the accused actions of rioting to a website.
[20:43.070 --> 20:54.350]  I'm looking at the website now, and I'm seeing plans for disrupting, which are normal and fine and happens constantly in a democratic society.
[20:54.350 --> 20:57.570]  You protest, you disrupt, you do all sorts of things like that.
[20:57.570 --> 21:06.270]  So I see nothing here saying we're going to be destroying things or being violent towards people or anything like that.
[21:06.430 --> 21:16.850]  So where are they getting the relationship in the first place that says that disruptJ20.org somehow is guilty of this?
[21:16.990 --> 21:19.010]  Yeah, I wish I knew the answer to that question.
[21:19.050 --> 21:24.370]  And maybe the government is hoping to find out the answer to that question if they receive the fruits of their search warrant as well.
[21:24.790 --> 21:27.270]  It's not really clear to me at this point.
[21:27.570 --> 21:46.210]  But for some reason, perhaps there was anonymous informant or some kind of complaint about this particular website that led them to look at it and believe that there was some sort of conspiracy committed within the confines of that website that related to organizing a riot,
[21:46.410 --> 21:57.870]  that people were actively conspiring to cause damage, to organize a riot, to just, you know, cause general mayhem, and that organizing occurred within the confines of that site.
[21:58.070 --> 22:00.990]  So it's not really entirely clear.
[22:01.510 --> 22:18.550]  It's really very problematic, though, because if you think about this, the ability to organize, the ability to assemble, the ability to voice, you know, arguably, you know, hateful things is protected by the First Amendment here.
[22:19.390 --> 22:19.730]  And...
[22:20.060 --> 22:20.890]  Oh, go ahead, Daniel.
[22:21.330 --> 22:28.110]  Well, I'm glad you mentioned that, because I'm also trying to get to a site called dailystormer.com.
[22:28.410 --> 22:35.050]  And you mentioned hatred and vile speech or things like that, and that certainly is the epitome of it.
[22:35.050 --> 22:40.690]  That's the right-wing Nazi site that seems to be having trouble finding a home.
[22:41.010 --> 22:44.810]  Nobody wants to host them, and you cannot get to that site at all.
[22:45.770 --> 22:51.670]  They've been kicked off virtually every provider in the United States, and I imagine they're going to wind up in another country at some point.
[22:51.850 --> 22:53.430]  I hear Russia's high up on the list.
[22:54.070 --> 22:55.670]  But so far, they don't have...
[22:55.670 --> 22:55.830]  Russia rejected them.
[22:56.670 --> 22:57.610]  Russia rejected them.
[22:57.670 --> 22:57.930]  Yes.
[22:58.390 --> 22:58.810]  Oh, good.
[22:58.930 --> 22:59.150]  Okay.
[22:59.530 --> 23:01.670]  Well, I'm sure they'll find a country, though, somewhere.
[23:02.950 --> 23:05.950]  And right now, they don't have one.
[23:06.910 --> 23:18.530]  So, yeah, this whole notion of defending speech, one form or another, it extends in all different areas.
[23:18.530 --> 23:23.250]  And that's part of the discussion that has been ongoing in this country now for the last couple of weeks.
[23:23.590 --> 23:35.550]  And, you know, it's weird to see these so-called free speech rallies that seem to imply that that isn't understood, that speech is somehow being threatened.
[23:35.770 --> 23:41.210]  When speech really isn't what's being threatened, it's calls to violence, and it's violence itself.
[23:41.750 --> 23:52.810]  But actual speech, I don't see that being regulated in a bad way or forbidden in any way.
[23:53.450 --> 23:58.470]  And I think this is something that certain companies are just deciding, we don't want this.
[23:58.470 --> 24:02.490]  We don't want these people to be on our machines.
[24:03.150 --> 24:05.550]  But what they say is still permitted.
[24:05.550 --> 24:12.170]  They just need to figure out a way to say it with a company that will host their machines.
[24:12.170 --> 24:20.750]  And, of course, they're totally free to learn how to host their own website on their own machine and admin it themselves and just put up a website like that.
[24:20.830 --> 24:27.430]  But, you know, that doesn't mean any hosting company has to let them do their free speech on their own machinery.
[24:27.810 --> 24:30.910]  And I think Anonymous would have them off the net in about 10 seconds.
[24:31.550 --> 24:32.330]  Quite likely.
[24:32.970 --> 24:39.950]  And I think both of you bring up an important distinction here, which is that these hosting companies, they're not an arm of the government.
[24:39.950 --> 24:44.330]  So they are not subject to the strictures of the Bill of Rights.
[24:44.450 --> 24:45.510]  They don't have to comply with that.
[24:45.630 --> 24:49.050]  If they don't like your speech, they can tell you to go shove it and you can go somewhere else.
[24:49.190 --> 24:57.890]  Now, if web hosting was a government-provided service, then I would venture to guess that the Daily Stormer would, in fact, have found a home.
[24:58.070 --> 25:06.430]  And if the government had kicked them off on the basis of viewpoint, that would have engendered a nasty lawsuit on First Amendment grounds.
[25:06.430 --> 25:12.850]  But web hosting, yet, so far, is not something that the government provides to private citizens.
[25:13.130 --> 25:21.950]  And as far as I know, there is no company in our country that has received a notice saying that they are not allowed to host this website.
[25:21.950 --> 25:27.090]  Now, that would be something that would, in fact, be an infringement of their First Amendment rights.
[25:27.330 --> 25:30.730]  The government saying, you are not allowed to say this.
[25:30.730 --> 25:34.270]  And they're not saying that, and they won't say that.
[25:34.410 --> 25:38.930]  But companies have the right to decide who they are going to host and who they are not going to host.
[25:39.150 --> 25:39.350]  Period.
[25:39.710 --> 25:41.130]  Yeah, that's exactly right.
[25:41.310 --> 25:54.590]  You know, and this brings up, you know, larger issues with respect to the LGBT community and private industry and whether people can rightfully refuse to serve gay people, you know, to refuse to make them wedding cakes and things like that.
[25:54.590 --> 25:58.350]  These are legal issues drawn along similar lines as well.
[25:58.610 --> 26:04.130]  So, you know, I think we do have to be careful because it can certainly cut both ways as well.
[26:04.350 --> 26:20.330]  If we, you know, look, because discrimination by private parties, you know, you think about golf courses, private institutions like the Freemasons not allowing in women as members, you know, all of these private institutions are, frankly, allowed to get away with all of that.
[26:20.330 --> 26:23.030]  But it's because they're not arms of the government.
[26:24.130 --> 26:25.530]  That is true.
[26:25.630 --> 26:38.790]  But, you know, I think there's an inherent difference between refusing to do business with somebody because of the vile rhetoric that they're spewing and their race, religion, sexual preference, things like that.
[26:38.790 --> 26:42.350]  I think those things are protected as human beings.
[26:42.350 --> 26:54.930]  Whereas, if you're saying something that is a call for race wars and things like that, I don't have as much of a problem with someone saying, I don't want to associate with you.
[26:55.650 --> 26:56.790]  I agree with that.
[26:56.930 --> 26:57.830]  I agree with that entirely.
[26:58.210 --> 27:01.230]  And, you know, certain classes of people are more protected than others.
[27:01.230 --> 27:13.170]  And when you have issues of interstate commerce coming into play, you know, that often, you know, is the hook into some kind of federal civil rights statute that would protect people from discrimination on those bases.
[27:13.550 --> 27:32.430]  So, that said, you know, one other thing about this interesting IP address search warrant story is that, you know, there is a privacy law that is very, you know, not often cited that came up in some of the literature surrounding this particular event.
[27:32.430 --> 27:39.070]  And I think this is of particular relevance to 2600, to our listeners, and to the media in general.
[27:39.530 --> 27:44.410]  Because if you look at, you know, The Hill actually had a very interesting article about this.
[27:44.470 --> 27:47.350]  And they've been getting a lot of press, I think, because they've been covering this pretty well.
[27:47.870 --> 27:57.650]  But in an article from a few days ago on The Hill, there's one paragraph that I'll read that says, and this is a quote from the lawyer for DreamHost.
[27:57.650 --> 28:12.470]  The government has now withdrawn entirely its unlawful and highly problematic request for any data relating to the visitors of the website, which, you know, we know that that's not necessarily true now, and any unpublished data subject to the Privacy Protection Act.
[28:12.670 --> 28:17.350]  Now, that's not a privacy law that you see coming into play very much.
[28:17.570 --> 28:25.850]  This is a really interesting law that has, you know, a somewhat kind of storied history about it.
[28:25.850 --> 28:28.470]  But this is a law that actually protects journalists.
[28:28.470 --> 28:37.010]  So the law itself and the website itself is probably considering itself to have some sort of journalistic mission as well.
[28:37.370 --> 28:50.530]  And this protects journalists from having to hand over to law enforcement the work product of their investigations or having to disclose the identity of any of their sources pursuant to a search warrant.
[28:50.530 --> 29:11.330]  Because if you're a journalist, if you're working on some kind of investigative report, if perhaps you're 2600 Magazine, and you're working on a story that relates to the creation of malware, maybe something like Kronos, and you have a source, the government shouldn't be allowed to simply say,
[29:11.670 --> 29:17.070]  well, 2600 Magazine published a story about this, they must have information relating to the crime.
[29:17.250 --> 29:33.030]  So I'm going to go to a judge, and on the basis of the probable cause, the 2600 knows the identity of the person who wrote this particular malware or is responsible for the subject of the crime about which you're reporting, I'm going to get a search warrant issued and cause them to hand over their records.
[29:33.310 --> 29:39.230]  So this came from a case that actually related to Stanford University, their newspaper.
[29:39.670 --> 29:45.950]  Back in the 70s, there was a protest at Stanford during which a couple of police officers got hurt.
[29:46.190 --> 29:48.990]  It was in, I think, 1977 or 1978.
[29:49.310 --> 29:50.890]  It was called Zurch v.
[29:51.210 --> 29:51.950]  Stanford Daily.
[29:52.450 --> 30:07.810]  And because there was a lot of photographs that happened at this particular protest, the police thought, well, the Stanford Daily newspaper might have additional photographs of people who did bad things at a riot, at a protest, essentially.
[30:08.050 --> 30:09.890]  So they got a warrant for the photographs.
[30:10.250 --> 30:26.830]  And Stanford contested this, and they went to the district court, the federal district court, and the judge agreed that you can't issue a search warrant to a press organization, a news-related organization, because it's unlawful, unconstitutional grounds.
[30:26.890 --> 30:28.450]  And then this went to the Ninth Circuit.
[30:28.550 --> 30:34.210]  And the Ninth Circuit said, yeah, there's big problems with this because it could violate the First Amendment and the Fourth Amendment.
[30:34.210 --> 30:43.250]  And there's definitely an interconnectedness between the First Amendment, the freedom of the press, the freedom to peaceably assemble, and the Fourth Amendment, our right to privacy.
[30:43.550 --> 30:46.870]  So then this was appealed to the United States Supreme Court.
[30:47.050 --> 31:00.690]  And the Supreme Court overturned the Ninth Circuit and said, actually, if there's any evidence of a crime, all you have to do is go to a judge and have a judge sign off that there's probable cause of a crime.
[31:00.850 --> 31:03.290]  Doesn't matter that you're a news organization.
[31:03.470 --> 31:06.550]  The police can get your records if they issue a warrant.
[31:06.970 --> 31:22.190]  So that was the law of the land for a couple of years, until in 1980, Congress... and this is, you know, sort of like a civics lesson here, I hope the president is listening, of checks and balances.
[31:22.510 --> 31:29.730]  Because then Congress acted, and they enacted this particular statute, the Privacy Protection Act, that overruled the Supreme Court.
[31:29.930 --> 31:31.250]  They made positive law.
[31:31.450 --> 31:35.570]  They took an affirmative action to say, Supreme Court, we think you got it wrong.
[31:35.710 --> 31:37.090]  This is the new law of the land.
[31:37.250 --> 31:39.870]  This is the law that the people have decided upon.
[31:40.030 --> 31:46.430]  And they passed the Privacy Protection Act that actually gives journalists the right to refuse these types of search warrants.
[31:46.610 --> 31:54.210]  So I think this is a really interesting sort of historical story about privacy and privacy law and the protections that are frankly needed.
[31:54.670 --> 31:56.030]  That happened in this country?
[31:56.170 --> 31:57.170]  That happened in this country.
[31:57.470 --> 32:01.910]  I mean, the 70s were, you know, you remember them better than I do, frankly.
[32:02.470 --> 32:03.050]  Not really.
[32:03.590 --> 32:04.390]  No, is that right?
[32:05.010 --> 32:12.310]  But 1978 was when this case went to the Supreme Court, and there was a lot of privacy-related stuff going on in 1978.
[32:12.550 --> 32:14.930]  I challenge you guys, I have a question for you.
[32:15.070 --> 32:27.770]  What other seminal piece of legislation that relates ostensibly to privacy was passed in 1978, that's been the subject of much debate since, I would say, 2013?
[32:28.150 --> 32:30.190]  June 2013 is the clue.
[32:30.430 --> 32:30.990]  Does anybody know?
[32:31.470 --> 32:31.630]  Hmm.
[32:31.970 --> 32:33.390]  It wasn't Bohemian Rhapsody, was it?
[32:33.490 --> 32:33.810]  No.
[32:33.950 --> 32:34.410]  No.
[32:34.810 --> 32:36.770]  The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.
[32:36.870 --> 32:37.690]  It was the same year.
[32:38.150 --> 32:47.730]  So, and that was passed because there were a lot of abuses of privacy happening in the 70s with COINTELPRO and Minaret and the FBI overreaching and surveilling citizens.
[32:48.330 --> 32:50.770]  And FISA was really designed to protect U.S.
[32:51.190 --> 32:51.190]  citizens.
[32:51.350 --> 32:54.130]  I mean, it was really a privacy law back then.
[32:54.130 --> 32:58.490]  It's been a little bit of abused with the FISA court over the last several decades.
[32:58.490 --> 32:59.810]  But there you have it.
[32:59.850 --> 33:03.650]  There was a real hotbed of privacy issues in the late 70s in the United States.
[33:03.830 --> 33:08.170]  So why wasn't the Privacy Protection Act able to keep James Risen out of prison?
[33:08.570 --> 33:10.310]  Uh, I don't know.
[33:10.390 --> 33:11.990]  I need a little more background on it.
[33:12.110 --> 33:17.950]  Wasn't he the Fox News reporter that was being prosecuted by the Obama administration for not revealing a source?
[33:18.230 --> 33:29.370]  That was probably... I don't remember all the facts of this particular case, but I would think that he probably had a subpoena issued to him and the subpoena was not complied with.
[33:29.470 --> 33:37.730]  In fact, this is one of the things that I think it was a district court had said in the Stanford Daily Mail case or Daily News case.
[33:38.390 --> 33:41.170]  Um, Zurch actually was probably what we should refer to it as.
[33:41.170 --> 33:53.790]  But, uh, instead of a search warrant, the courts have said, what you can do is issue a subpoena, a subpoena duques tecum, which is essentially Latin for, you know, I command you to bring something with you.
[33:53.930 --> 33:57.350]  And a subpoena is something that anybody can oppose.
[33:57.570 --> 33:59.010]  You can move to quash a subpoena.
[33:59.190 --> 34:04.930]  A subpoena is something that goes in front of a judge and both parties see it and both parties have an opportunity to contest it.
[34:05.130 --> 34:15.790]  And so when you have that adversarial process, when it relates to the protection of documents, it's not like a search warrant because a search warrant is all ex parte, meaning it's only one party.
[34:15.950 --> 34:21.070]  It's only the government that gets the opportunity to present in front of a judge before a search warrant is issued.
[34:21.270 --> 34:28.530]  So if the adversarial system has resulted in a lawful subpoena, then you really need to comply with that subpoena or face the consequences.
[34:28.530 --> 34:34.250]  So I would guess that that case related to non-compliance with a subpoena that resulted in criminal contempt.
[34:35.530 --> 34:35.970]  Wow.
[34:36.230 --> 34:36.590]  Thanks.
[34:37.790 --> 34:42.210]  Well, I'm definitely keeping an eye on this story and seeing what else comes of it.
[34:43.010 --> 34:48.150]  I think I will take phone calls a little later, but for now, I'd like to touch on this other story that's been everywhere today.
[34:49.090 --> 34:53.430]  Sonos, a manufacturer of networked speakers, Internet of Things speakers.
[34:54.130 --> 35:00.130]  Internet of Things, for those unfamiliar, is other people's computers in your home doing stuff you don't control.
[35:00.130 --> 35:01.890]  Well, not exactly.
[35:02.030 --> 35:06.350]  They're just... I mean, they've been around since a long before the Internet of Things became a fad.
[35:06.550 --> 35:06.970]  Right.
[35:07.090 --> 35:09.010]  But this functionality is in their speakers now.
[35:09.310 --> 35:10.910]  They're basically smart speakers.
[35:11.530 --> 35:14.030]  You can connect them to things and let them play audio.
[35:14.030 --> 35:19.790]  You can also hook them up to voice assistant services such as Amazon and Alexa and things like that.
[35:20.030 --> 35:25.850]  And Sonos, who manufactures these things, has announced plans to revise their privacy policy next week.
[35:25.950 --> 35:33.330]  And customers who declined to accept the changes to the privacy policy will no longer be able to download future software updates.
[35:34.270 --> 35:38.450]  The plan was shared in a blog post on Sonos' site on Tuesday.
[35:38.790 --> 35:46.310]  And from there spread around because customers, many customers are not taking kindly to the changes.
[35:46.990 --> 35:49.970]  Customers will be able to opt out of providing some data, but not all of it.
[35:50.050 --> 36:03.530]  Required functional information, the data that you need to share with Sonos includes registration data, which includes email address, location, language preference, product serial number, IP address, and your Sonos account log information.
[36:04.250 --> 36:12.690]  System data, that includes the product type, controller device type, operating system of controller, software version information, content source, what you've got it hooked to, signal input.
[36:12.950 --> 36:16.790]  For example, whether your TV outputs a specific audio signal such as Dolby or whatever.
[36:17.310 --> 36:30.310]  Information about any Wi-Fi antennas you have, audio settings, product orientation, the room names that you have assigned to your speakers, whether your product has been tuned using Sonos' proprietary technology, error information, things like that.
[36:31.150 --> 36:32.510]  I don't understand something, Rob.
[36:32.630 --> 36:42.850]  Now, all this that you just listed, this is all information that this company can access now, or that this company wants to access in the future.
[36:43.250 --> 36:52.850]  I believe it's information that it can access now, but it's not in the user agreements, the privacy policies that you sign when you register these things.
[36:53.030 --> 37:00.190]  So it's information that wasn't necessarily being collected and shared about you before, but definitely will from next week.
[37:00.410 --> 37:09.650]  Well, I can't imagine why anybody would want to get updates from this company if they're announcing their privacy policy and it's something that's unacceptable to you.
[37:09.830 --> 37:17.850]  Why would you want to keep getting updates from them when obviously those updates are going to have methods of spying probably contained within them?
[37:18.110 --> 37:29.330]  Because the way that Sonos software works is in order to hook it up with other services like Spotify or local music files, it requires being able to keep up with those protocols.
[37:29.590 --> 37:38.270]  So if the protocols are updated, then the Spotify API is updated, you won't be able to use an old version of the Sonos software.
[37:38.450 --> 37:41.070]  And not only that, but this also includes security updates.
[37:41.630 --> 37:51.810]  So we keep hearing about people who don't patch their software and they end up with their Internet of Things devices, which are basically very simple computers, being open to security exploits that are known out there.
[37:51.910 --> 37:56.210]  We've seen it happen with internet connected video cameras and baby monitors and things like that.
[37:56.550 --> 38:05.910]  So if some vulnerability pops up in your Sonos speaker in the future, you won't be able to get it patched out if you don't agree to share much more of your private data than you were before.
[38:06.270 --> 38:14.030]  And this is the time where you ask yourself, are all these bells and whistles this cool that you need to put yourself at risk?
[38:14.230 --> 38:24.450]  I mean, some people will say, yeah, of course, but others will start to think about this a little harder and say, you know, I miss the old days where I'd have to worry about my speakers spying on me.
[38:24.450 --> 38:32.710]  I think a better option is to say it doesn't have to be this way and call for legislation to guarantee privacy on things.
[38:32.870 --> 38:39.970]  Like, you're paying customer for this and now they just want to turn you also into part of the product and sell you data.
[38:40.230 --> 38:47.450]  And we should have government regulation to protect us from this type of thing because there might not be an alternative.
[38:47.450 --> 38:51.570]  And it's a very useful product to have multi-room speaker functionality.
[38:51.570 --> 38:54.270]  Well, you'll need a government that will agree with you on that.
[38:54.270 --> 38:55.750]  I don't think we have that right now.
[38:55.970 --> 39:13.930]  Well, we may have some method of oversight here in the form of the FTC, the Federal Trade Commission, because this seems like a sort of bait and switch type of opportunity attack by Sonos in that they get you to buy these speakers and then they change the terms and conditions.
[39:14.310 --> 39:27.970]  And only if you agree to provide them with all this mess of data, frankly, that doesn't seem like it's narrowly tailored to the requirements of interoperability.
[39:28.130 --> 39:39.630]  I think there are many lesser, you know, intrusive means of obtaining data for things like, you know, firmware updates and whatnot than all of this that they're requesting.
[39:39.770 --> 39:46.030]  But, you know, the FTC could possibly look into this as some sort of deceptive trade practice, some sort of bait and switch on the back end.
[39:46.170 --> 39:52.250]  But, you know, to go back to what we were talking about before with DreamHost and try to relate that to this particular topic.
[39:52.770 --> 40:01.690]  Well, you know, again, you know, Sonos is a private company and the relationships that they have with their customers are governed by the contracts that they draft.
[40:01.950 --> 40:08.910]  You know, frankly, I think most of them are contracts of adhesion in that we don't really have an opportunity to negotiate them.
[40:09.050 --> 40:11.010]  We're just given the terms and we have to accept them.
[40:11.170 --> 40:12.530]  We have to take them or leave them.
[40:12.870 --> 40:15.130]  But they are essentially contracts.
[40:15.130 --> 40:21.330]  And they can do whatever they like in those contracts and require certain conditions for continued service.
[40:21.830 --> 40:25.550]  And if we don't like it, we don't have to buy their products.
[40:25.730 --> 40:27.370]  And perhaps that's what we should do.
[40:27.590 --> 40:28.210]  Yeah, I agree with that.
[40:28.210 --> 40:29.950]  What about people that already bought the products?
[40:31.010 --> 40:33.130]  Well, then they're sort of out of luck.
[40:34.470 --> 40:35.210]  That's the problem.
[40:35.310 --> 40:37.550]  That's why I think there's possibly a deceptive trade practice.
[40:37.550 --> 40:42.990]  Well, you're probably going to have to buy all new equipment anyway in a few years when the new version comes out.
[40:43.230 --> 40:50.190]  So I think in this particular case, giving the company a black eye and saying these guys don't respect privacy is probably the worst thing you can do to them.
[40:50.530 --> 41:04.630]  And probably the best thing that we can do, rather than get government involved and have yet more regulation on various things, is to come up with a better solution, come up with a better company that does respect our privacy and support them.
[41:04.630 --> 41:07.930]  But what's to stop them from changing their policy when it becomes profitable?
[41:08.470 --> 41:10.910]  What happened to the last people that tried it?
[41:11.010 --> 41:11.890]  That's what will stop them.
[41:12.070 --> 41:12.230]  Yeah.
[41:12.790 --> 41:23.210]  You know, and the other option that we have, too, is, you know, building on what you're saying, Emmanuel, which I agree with, is I don't think we need necessarily more government regulation in this sphere.
[41:23.510 --> 41:36.550]  But if they were to, as Voltaire mentioned, not update certain customers on the basis of a new Spotify API, and essentially their speakers became useless.
[41:36.690 --> 41:50.250]  If these things were bricked devices because they weren't handing over their data, I guarantee you, you know, you can find a plaintiff's lawyer in any phone book who'd be willing to take that class action and bring that to court.
[41:50.390 --> 41:52.810]  And then you bring the company to heel that way.
[41:52.810 --> 41:54.230]  You make them pay through the nose.
[41:54.610 --> 41:57.630]  Um, and then that's a warning for the next guy as well.
[41:58.150 --> 42:02.410]  Uh, unfortunately, you know, these lessons aren't all too often learned.
[42:02.590 --> 42:02.690]  Yeah.
[42:02.750 --> 42:05.410]  They're just, they're just taps on the risk or the cost of doing business.
[42:05.590 --> 42:13.270]  And with FTC, they can only, their, uh, power only authorize them to act, uh, like post-talk and like, uh, punish people.
[42:13.450 --> 42:17.330]  They're not able to, uh, take proactive measures to stop people from doing it.
[42:17.330 --> 42:18.430]  You mean like the thought police?
[42:19.110 --> 42:35.690]  Uh, well, you know, speaking of the FTC reminds me of the FCC, uh, our, our friends over there, uh, and, um, something that, uh, they did, which we have not reported on, which I think we should have reported on, uh, actually relates to a caller, uh, a couple of months ago,
[42:35.890 --> 42:42.230]  having problems, uh, with, uh, a copper line that was being forced to, uh, turn into a Fios line.
[42:42.750 --> 42:48.490]  Turns out, turns out that Verizon and all the other phone companies can in fact do this now.
[42:48.710 --> 43:00.870]  They can in fact retire, uh, the copper in your neighborhood and force you onto their fiber optic line, uh, which, you know, to them and to some people might sound like a good thing.
[43:01.150 --> 43:02.970]  And in some ways it is a good thing.
[43:02.970 --> 43:09.690]  You get faster data, uh, and, and, uh, potential at least for more clarity if it's, uh, done properly.
[43:09.750 --> 43:23.870]  But what you lose is the resilience that a copper line, uh, has, um, if you lose power, uh, you won't have your phone line for, for days or weeks as, as sometimes happens during hurricanes or blizzards.
[43:24.630 --> 43:31.790]  Um, so a lot of people have been resisting this, but apparently, uh, what happened is this actually happened back in March of 2016.
[43:32.270 --> 43:37.230]  Uh, the FCC's copper retirement advance notice rules took effect.
[43:37.950 --> 43:50.630]  Um, and basically, um, um, they require companies to give customers advance notice before retiring copper lines, which is 90 days for residential customers and 180 days for wholesale providers.
[43:50.890 --> 44:03.790]  According to the federal registered notice, the rules are designed to provide interconnecting entities adequate time to prepare their networks for the planned copper retirements and to ensure that consumers are able to make informed choices.
[44:04.710 --> 44:07.590]  So, um, unfortunately, that is where it stands.
[44:07.730 --> 44:10.870]  And that's, um, that's what's happening to a lot of people nationwide.
[44:10.870 --> 44:18.350]  They're having their copper lines forcibly taken from them and retired and turned into, um, uh, fiber optic lines.
[44:18.510 --> 44:27.010]  Uh, although many phone companies are keeping the same price so that, uh, that people don't feel, uh, too ripped off by this or, or being priced into a different tier.
[44:27.010 --> 44:32.330]  Uh, but I think we're losing something valuable by getting rid of, um, of copper.
[44:32.610 --> 44:37.910]  The, the, the clarity of copper, I think is something that, uh, has, has yet to be matched at least.
[44:38.570 --> 44:40.830]  Um, you know, I, I, I know that it can be matched.
[44:41.050 --> 44:42.310]  It just hasn't been yet.
[44:42.510 --> 44:55.490]  And, and, and, uh, phone companies are trying to save, um, all kinds of money in various places, but, uh, you can't deny the fact that a phone call from the 1950s sounds better than a phone call today in most cases.
[44:55.490 --> 44:56.770]  And that needs to change.
[44:57.010 --> 44:58.590]  And it's not just a matter of quality either.
[44:58.810 --> 45:05.010]  There's, uh, the simple fact that for, um, services like VoIP and things like that, that might seem like some sort of upgrade.
[45:05.210 --> 45:07.510]  You need electricity to run them.
[45:07.730 --> 45:09.030]  You need, uh, you need power to your house.
[45:09.110 --> 45:10.610]  You need to have paid your electricity bill.
[45:10.950 --> 45:14.170]  The local electricity, um, infrastructure needs to be dependable.
[45:14.450 --> 45:19.070]  Um, and, uh, if you're, if it's, uh, if it's a blackout, you're probably screwed.
[45:19.830 --> 45:35.330]  You know, there's something really sad about this too, to me in that if you think about what's happening all over New York and many other cities, and it's going to be happening in London soon too, these, these damn link NYC kiosks are replacing, uh, all the pay phones,
[45:35.490 --> 45:37.790]  you know, there's, there's barely a pay phone that you can go and use.
[45:37.910 --> 45:43.650]  And if our copper lines are being taken out like this, you know, we're going to soon see the death of the dial tone.
[45:44.010 --> 45:46.470]  It's, you know, this may become a thing of the past.
[45:46.730 --> 45:48.590]  And that, that to me is, is really, really sad.
[45:48.810 --> 45:54.530]  I mean, my son is four years old and he would not be able to identify what a dial tone sounds like.
[45:54.910 --> 45:56.570]  You know, that's a, that's a scary thing.
[45:57.450 --> 46:01.070]  Well, I know that scary is the right word, but it's certainly a sad thing.
[46:01.250 --> 46:03.330]  And it's something that will make us more ignorant.
[46:03.910 --> 46:10.190]  And, um, and, and we don't have to, we don't have to get rid of old technology when we move to new technology.
[46:10.270 --> 46:12.270]  The two can exist side by side.
[46:12.270 --> 46:23.650]  You can have books and you can have eBooks, you know, you can have, you can have, uh, uh, vinyl records and you can have CDs or, or digital downloads.
[46:23.870 --> 46:28.150]  You know, you can have, uh, film and you can have video and more digital downloads.
[46:28.390 --> 46:30.450]  There's no reason to be getting rid of things.
[46:30.930 --> 46:35.390]  Uh, just thinking that it's getting better because it's, it's more modern.
[46:35.910 --> 46:38.330]  Sometimes you want to go back to the way it was.
[46:38.450 --> 46:40.790]  Sometimes you want to, uh, to use some old technology.
[46:40.990 --> 46:43.630]  You know, A lot of kids are really into old technology.
[46:44.470 --> 46:47.450]  They like to use film cameras instead of digital cameras.
[46:47.650 --> 46:53.750]  We should be encouraging this kind of thing because that lets people become aware of how the technology actually works.
[46:54.150 --> 47:01.410]  You know, somebody in grade school used to be able to fix a telephone, you know, take it apart and put it back together.
[47:01.610 --> 47:03.190]  Try that with a cell phone, you know.
[47:03.930 --> 47:05.370]  It doesn't work that way.
[47:05.370 --> 47:14.750]  You know, you have all the specialized technology that is involved in piecing it together that you don't have access to and you certainly don't have understanding of.
[47:14.950 --> 47:21.310]  So by just wiping this away and thinking that we're moving on, I think we're actually moving backwards.
[47:21.630 --> 47:26.130]  Well, some of the stuff, you know, to go back to the discussion we had earlier about New York.
[47:26.230 --> 47:31.430]  I mean, have you ever been to parts of Chinatown here where abacuses are still used?
[47:31.530 --> 47:34.150]  I mean, it's really efficient when you know how to use it.
[47:34.150 --> 47:41.250]  I mean, this is an ancient technology that's still being used on a day-to-day basis to make pretty complicated mathematical calculations.
[47:42.050 --> 47:44.730]  We should all start walking around with abacuses.
[47:46.370 --> 47:46.770]  Abacuses?
[47:46.770 --> 47:47.170]  Abacai?
[47:47.330 --> 47:47.930]  How do you say that?
[47:48.230 --> 47:48.770]  Well, let's see.
[47:49.250 --> 47:52.910]  If it's a second declension noun, then it would be abacai.
[47:53.330 --> 47:56.290]  But I don't know if it's an actual Latin root I'd have to add.
[47:56.290 --> 47:57.550]  Nobody likes a smart alec.
[47:57.810 --> 47:58.750]  Yeah, I know.
[47:58.850 --> 47:59.230]  Anytime.
[47:59.450 --> 48:00.350]  Get me started on Latin.
[48:00.510 --> 48:01.290]  I'll keep going.
[48:01.430 --> 48:02.630]  Kill the rest of the show here.
[48:02.730 --> 48:02.990]  Sorry.
[48:02.990 --> 48:06.850]  Well, speaking of which, I'd like to take a couple of phone calls if we could.
[48:07.190 --> 48:10.110]  You can get us at 347-335-0818.
[48:10.450 --> 48:13.890]  And let's see if we can squeeze a couple of you in in the time we have left.
[48:15.090 --> 48:18.950]  Country code 1, 347-335-0818.
[48:19.290 --> 48:24.710]  And while we're waiting for this board to light up, I just want to read a message that came in on Twitter, at Hacker Radio Show.
[48:24.710 --> 48:29.670]  So, Dalsini writes to us, to Alex, actually, sorry to hear you were gouged.
[48:29.790 --> 48:31.430]  Glasses cost 61 cents each.
[48:31.670 --> 48:33.430]  Selling them was an amazing social experiment.
[48:33.670 --> 48:34.270]  Smiley face.
[48:34.670 --> 48:38.930]  Yeah, well, we asked what the return policy was when we bought them, and they laughed at us.
[48:39.110 --> 48:39.670]  So, yeah.
[48:40.390 --> 48:43.990]  For the next Eclipse, how about Eclipse contact lenses?
[48:44.430 --> 48:44.710]  Ooh.
[48:45.830 --> 48:47.330]  Someone get to work on that.
[48:47.410 --> 48:49.950]  You wouldn't be able to see anything, though, right?
[48:49.990 --> 48:50.790]  They're really dark.
[48:50.790 --> 48:51.970]  Well, that is true.
[48:52.150 --> 48:53.610]  That's something to keep in mind.
[48:53.770 --> 48:59.190]  When you have Eclipse glasses on, if they're working properly, you shouldn't see anything except the sun if you stare at it.
[48:59.270 --> 48:59.630]  That's right.
[48:59.770 --> 49:00.010]  Excellent.
[49:00.190 --> 49:01.730]  Well, it looks like we've got someone on the line.
[49:01.910 --> 49:02.410]  Good evening.
[49:02.530 --> 49:03.070]  You're on Off the Hook.
[49:03.750 --> 49:04.930]  Hey, good evening, guys.
[49:04.950 --> 49:09.690]  This is a guy from New Jersey that called you about getting his copper line shut up on June 2.
[49:09.690 --> 49:10.270]  Oh, wow.
[49:11.090 --> 49:12.010]  Oh, boy.
[49:12.490 --> 49:19.450]  I was cooking dinner, and I heard the show, and I said, I've got to call him because I got Fios now.
[49:19.450 --> 49:30.050]  They made me get Fios on August 9, so I went two months and a week working with the Forest Fire Service like they couldn't get a hold of me, and they knew that.
[49:30.130 --> 49:32.850]  I told Verizon, I worked for the New Jersey Forest Fire Service.
[49:33.110 --> 49:38.610]  We're on call to go anywhere, and you can't depend on a cell phone, really, so you need a message.
[49:40.110 --> 49:47.690]  So now that my buddy stopped by that morning, who's an electrician, just happened to come by that morning early.
[49:48.070 --> 49:53.290]  We had to put a new GFI plug in, because you've got to have electricity for it.
[49:53.550 --> 49:56.010]  I just got the batteries for it in the mail.
[49:56.510 --> 50:00.530]  But why they're changing over to copper, you know what's going to happen?
[50:00.750 --> 50:03.190]  It's going to be like Kodachrome and Ektachrome.
[50:03.190 --> 50:13.350]  They're making it again and developing it, Kodach, because analog digital film can't take the pictures required by National Geographic.
[50:14.070 --> 50:16.110]  Sony is pressing out in New Jersey.
[50:16.330 --> 50:17.050]  They opened a plant.
[50:17.550 --> 50:19.350]  It's been closed for 40 years.
[50:19.490 --> 50:20.930]  They're making vinyl records.
[50:21.130 --> 50:23.930]  So I think they're making a big mistake with this Fios.
[50:24.430 --> 50:29.290]  You know, on this trip that I've been on, I've seen so many stores that sell vinyl.
[50:29.470 --> 50:30.450]  It's really incredible.
[50:30.450 --> 50:31.850]  And they're crowded with people, too.
[50:32.090 --> 50:34.450]  And it's really cool to flip through vinyl records again.
[50:34.830 --> 50:36.130]  So, yeah, I think you're right.
[50:36.910 --> 50:43.250]  If you ever get to Red Bank, New Jersey, Broad Street, you've got to go to Jack's Music, because he's got thousands of records.
[50:43.750 --> 50:44.370]  Really good.
[50:44.550 --> 50:47.570]  They're in great shape, and they sell them for a really good price.
[50:48.210 --> 50:50.590]  Oh, well, well, thank you.
[50:50.590 --> 50:54.390]  You'll never see more vinyl anywhere than his place in it.
[50:54.470 --> 50:59.410]  They've got a selection of everything, 78, 33, you name it, 45.
[51:00.130 --> 51:04.010]  Good luck with your Fios, and thank you very much for the updates.
[51:04.210 --> 51:05.710]  Hey, guys, thanks for all your help.
[51:05.910 --> 51:09.430]  And my buddy at Verizon told me the same thing.
[51:09.930 --> 51:12.830]  They're letting the businesses slide, but everybody else has got to go.
[51:13.310 --> 51:14.370]  So have a great night.
[51:14.830 --> 51:20.350]  Hopefully we'll be here before they drop them, before Trump does something crazy, right?
[51:21.890 --> 51:22.870]  Too late for that.
[51:23.610 --> 51:23.770]  Yep.
[51:24.470 --> 51:24.870]  Wow.
[51:25.430 --> 51:27.530]  Well, that was fun.
[51:27.670 --> 51:30.310]  And yeah, the kids these days, they do like the vinyl records again.
[51:30.490 --> 51:32.630]  And personally, I still like CDs.
[51:32.950 --> 51:34.190]  But there we go.
[51:34.270 --> 51:36.050]  It looks like we've got someone else on the line.
[51:36.310 --> 51:36.870]  Good evening.
[51:37.090 --> 51:37.910]  You're on Off the Hook.
[51:38.690 --> 51:39.390]  Yes, hello.
[51:39.710 --> 51:40.930]  I'm enjoying the show.
[51:41.210 --> 51:42.990]  And, well, two things.
[51:43.130 --> 51:47.310]  One thing is I'd like to know if Verizon is selling all that copper to Red China.
[51:47.310 --> 51:49.350]  They're trying to buy up all the copper in the world.
[51:50.270 --> 52:08.010]  And the second thought is with the problems with the Navy having, you know, running their ships into other ships, somebody has suggested that so that people or somebody working on spoofing the GPS for the military and trying to set this up.
[52:08.290 --> 52:10.990]  So, wait, are hackers being blamed for this now, too?
[52:11.410 --> 52:12.250]  Well, no.
[52:12.250 --> 52:18.910]  Well, perhaps Korean hackers, Russian hackers, supposedly it's an idea that somebody's screwing with the GPS.
[52:20.050 --> 52:21.650]  I suppose that's possible.
[52:21.890 --> 52:25.630]  But really, I mean, you have to look at the human factor here.
[52:26.190 --> 52:26.630]  Oh, true.
[52:26.810 --> 52:26.990]  Yeah.
[52:27.310 --> 52:34.150]  And have some kind of override mechanism, obviously, installed if you're being steered towards another boat.
[52:34.350 --> 52:36.750]  I mean, they have to look into how that happened in the first place.
[52:36.750 --> 52:53.410]  Yeah, there has been speculation that it's been the work of nation state actors, but given that anybody who's had enough cyber chops to be able to do this, also probably has nuclear weapons, they're not going to want to, like, start a war and get a mutually assured destruction.
[52:53.690 --> 52:57.910]  So, it's possible, but only in the sense that they screwed up.
[52:58.370 --> 53:04.170]  Well, coincidentally, Emmanuel, since these stories have come out, has been sort of, you know, running around the country.
[53:04.170 --> 53:11.210]  You know, maybe there's a sealed indictment for some kind of nefarious GPS-related activity.
[53:11.570 --> 53:17.450]  Good luck finding my GPS, or me, because, yes, I have been bouncing around like a ping-pong ball in the country.
[53:17.710 --> 53:21.230]  And, you know, traveling by train is the best way to do that, and you meet the most amazing people.
[53:21.370 --> 53:27.170]  So, I thoroughly recommend that before Trump decides to cut the trains completely.
[53:27.490 --> 53:28.230]  Very interesting.
[53:28.470 --> 53:30.730]  Well, let's see if we can get anyone else in.
[53:31.270 --> 53:32.810]  347-335-0818.
[53:32.810 --> 53:35.550]  While we're waiting, what's going on on Twitter?
[53:36.050 --> 53:44.490]  A friend of the show, Gonzo, says that Google will, by 2024, by the next eclipse, we'll have the Google Glasses Eclipse edition.
[53:45.650 --> 53:48.290]  Wow, that was quicker than to announce that, right after I asked for it.
[53:48.350 --> 53:48.710]  Thank you.
[53:49.350 --> 53:49.710]  Absolutely.
[53:50.170 --> 53:51.370]  We've got someone on the line now.
[53:51.550 --> 53:51.950]  Good evening.
[53:52.150 --> 53:52.790]  You're on off the hook.
[53:52.810 --> 53:53.950]  Yeah, it's Tom from the Bronx.
[53:54.130 --> 53:54.790]  Tom, how are you?
[53:54.790 --> 54:04.610]  I'd like to say that I know Fios had come to my building, and there's numerous people in here that have Fios now.
[54:05.770 --> 54:10.410]  So far, I still have my regular line, you know, phone.
[54:11.010 --> 54:15.130]  Well, you're going to have to guard it, because they're going to come for it at some point.
[54:15.130 --> 54:18.590]  Well, that's what I fear now.
[54:18.590 --> 54:19.450]  I really do.
[54:19.790 --> 54:37.570]  I wouldn't be happy giving that up, especially with the way the new phones over here and the radiation that's put out has caused cancers to people and everything else.
[54:38.630 --> 54:42.530]  Well, that's a whole other aspect I haven't even considered, health consequences.
[54:43.250 --> 54:52.150]  If you listen to Ecologic, the program on WBAI here, he has all that type of information.
[54:52.630 --> 54:54.910]  But here's something else I'd like to say.
[54:55.470 --> 55:06.410]  You bought those glasses, make sure you got the good ones, because there's a lot of them come from China that are not good.
[55:07.650 --> 55:11.670]  Yeah, it's that red China again, you know, trying to blind us.
[55:12.010 --> 55:14.490]  I haven't heard the term red China in 20 years.
[55:14.650 --> 55:15.170]  Wow, okay.
[55:15.550 --> 55:21.450]  From China, the glasses that were coming in are not adequate.
[55:21.690 --> 55:23.890]  There's ones they were selling that were not good.
[55:24.630 --> 55:30.090]  The ones maybe that were bought by yourselves over there may be all right.
[55:30.610 --> 55:35.090]  Well, I think my grandmother has a set of red China, but I think, you know...
[55:35.090 --> 55:36.830]  It's not a point of red China.
[55:36.830 --> 55:42.130]  It's just a point of what was manufactured there and sold here.
[55:42.710 --> 55:46.030]  Because if somebody looked at those...
[55:47.410 --> 55:56.590]  Looked at this spectacular situation in the sky with some of those glasses there written, it still could be hurt.
[55:57.430 --> 55:57.790]  Excellent.
[55:57.950 --> 55:58.830]  Some of those types.
[55:59.490 --> 56:06.030]  Well, while we're on the subject, Tom, I just want to tell you that one of our listeners on Twitter has just sent us the note that Tom from the Bronx is cool.
[56:06.750 --> 56:09.710]  So we certainly think so, and it's always good to hear from you, Tom.
[56:10.130 --> 56:10.530]  All right.
[56:11.010 --> 56:12.190]  Nice to chat with you.
[56:12.590 --> 56:13.050]  And you.
[56:15.210 --> 56:18.950]  That's the kind of technology interplay I'd like to see more of.
[56:18.950 --> 56:22.590]  It's a copper line interacting with a Twitter feed.
[56:23.850 --> 56:24.530]  That's interesting.
[56:24.770 --> 56:27.650]  We try and bring things together as the best we can over here.
[56:27.930 --> 56:31.590]  Hey, really quick point of information for some of our viewers, since I know we got to wrap it up here.
[56:31.810 --> 56:44.290]  But with respect to copper lines and the protection that they have in certain states, and I actually don't know what the law is in New York, and I don't know whether you would qualify, but a lot of telcos can't just yank copper lines from the elderly,
[56:44.290 --> 56:56.390]  that sometimes they actually have to go through a hearing process, where if there's notice given, a customer can challenge it, and they can actually have a hearing on this issue that is overseen by the government of Massachusetts.
[56:56.390 --> 56:59.990]  They have this particular type of law, but it's a little bit antiquated.
[57:00.150 --> 57:04.910]  It's a little formulaic in that sometimes in order to qualify for this, you have to tell the phone company your age.
[57:04.910 --> 57:07.810]  They don't really track birthdays all that well.
[57:07.810 --> 57:13.690]  They require some kind of paperwork, but it's something to look into if you want to protect your copper lines.
[57:14.950 --> 57:18.310]  And on that note, I think it's time for us to wrap things up around here.
[57:18.730 --> 57:23.010]  Send us your emails, oth at 2600.com.
[57:23.230 --> 57:25.350]  Send us your thoughts on Twitter at Hacker Radio Show.
[57:26.910 --> 57:29.390]  And just keep doing what you do out there.
[57:30.110 --> 57:35.330]  Thank you to all of our callers, and thank you, Emmanuel, for joining us from Parts Unknown.
[57:35.910 --> 57:36.470]  My pleasure.
[57:36.890 --> 57:37.070]  Excellent.
[57:37.070 --> 57:37.990]  I told you where I was.
[57:38.270 --> 57:40.210]  Well, they were unknown at one point.
[57:40.390 --> 57:42.210]  And, you know, I'm sticking to the old definitions.
[57:42.930 --> 57:47.250]  But, yes, for Off the Hook, this is Rob T.
[57:47.370 --> 57:51.810]  Firefly wishing you all a very good evening and an excellent week.
[58:00.040 --> 58:01.940]  Why is that?
[58:02.120 --> 58:25.760]  We stand so still People gonna start thinking we're statues Silence is disturbing me People talk but I can't hear I'm off the hook Off the hook I think I'm off the hook, baby Off the hook
[58:59.540 --> 59:15.520]  Yeah, you were right This is really fun
[59:18.600 --> 59:24.640]  I never got this done before Off
[59:50.300 --> 59:58.280]  the hook I think I'm off the hook, baby Off the hook
[01:00:15.100 --> 01:00:17.020]  Why is that?
[01:00:17.160 --> 01:00:30.220]  We stand so still People gonna start thinking we're statues Silence is disturbing me People talk but I can't hear I'm off the hook