[00:00.000 --> 00:02.400]  Two countries only 90 miles apart.
[00:02.920 --> 00:04.640]  Hola, this is Hector Elizondo.
[00:05.220 --> 00:10.320]  Embargo's relevance to today's political climate is a perfect point to begin a new conversation.
[00:11.020 --> 00:19.520]  Embargo opens Friday, September 15th through Thursday, September 21st at the Village East Cinema, 189 2nd Avenue, New York City.
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[00:33.570 --> 00:34.690]  We're WBAI New York.
[00:34.810 --> 00:39.310]  It's 8 o'clock time once again for another exciting edition of Off the Hook.
[00:44.500 --> 00:46.440]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[00:46.760 --> 00:48.980]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[00:49.940 --> 00:51.960]  I cut myself while shaving.
[00:52.580 --> 00:54.500]  Now I can't make a call.
[01:00.190 --> 01:02.750]  Diddly bump for the best, expect the worst.
[01:03.330 --> 01:05.290]  I hope that's understood.
[01:05.570 --> 01:06.230]  But diddly bump!
[02:14.940 --> 02:17.140]  And a very, very good evening to everybody.
[02:17.260 --> 02:18.900]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:19.240 --> 02:21.680]  Emmanuel Goldstein joining you this evening.
[02:21.820 --> 02:23.800]  Joined tonight by Rob T.
[02:23.900 --> 02:24.200]  Firefly.
[02:24.200 --> 02:24.980]  Good evening.
[02:25.400 --> 02:25.760]  Voltaire.
[02:26.200 --> 02:26.460]  Hello.
[02:26.840 --> 02:27.520]  And Kyle.
[02:27.820 --> 02:28.800]  Hey, how's it going, everybody?
[02:28.800 --> 02:29.000]  Hi.
[02:29.260 --> 02:29.960]  It's going good.
[02:30.000 --> 02:31.360]  It's going really good, actually.
[02:31.500 --> 02:32.380]  It's very busy.
[02:32.500 --> 02:33.300]  A lot of things happening.
[02:33.500 --> 02:35.140]  And this show is no exception.
[02:35.140 --> 02:38.140]  We have a lot to cover tonight, so we're going to try and hit the ground running.
[02:39.560 --> 02:45.040]  Okay, well, you know, we have a ton of listener email that we want to get to, but we're not going to have time to get to it.
[02:45.100 --> 02:45.420]  I'm sorry.
[02:45.600 --> 02:48.460]  I wish we could, but we need more than an hour.
[02:50.320 --> 03:05.340]  We have a special guest coming on at the half-past hour talking about net neutrality and all those kind of issues, but right now, something that's happening in only a couple of days is, believe it or not, the next World Maker Faire here in New York.
[03:05.340 --> 03:10.700]  And we have, as is tradition, on the phone with us, Sherry Huss from Maker Faire.
[03:10.820 --> 03:12.100]  Sherry, I'm...
[03:12.660 --> 03:13.180]  Yes, hello.
[03:14.080 --> 03:15.000]  Are you there?
[03:15.120 --> 03:16.520]  Okay, I hit the wrong button for a second.
[03:16.640 --> 03:17.240]  I am, yes.
[03:18.220 --> 03:20.380]  I can't believe another year has gone by.
[03:20.380 --> 03:20.760]  Wow.
[03:21.380 --> 03:22.460]  We're doing this again, huh?
[03:22.460 --> 03:23.560]  We're going faster and faster.
[03:23.840 --> 03:24.220]  It seems...
[03:24.220 --> 03:24.500]  Exactly.
[03:24.560 --> 03:26.040]  This is our eighth year.
[03:26.340 --> 03:27.140]  Uh-huh, eighth year.
[03:27.380 --> 03:35.160]  So eight times now in the... well, close to where the World's Fair is by the Hall of Science in Queens.
[03:36.460 --> 03:38.700]  Um... and... and how many people show up to this thing?
[03:39.860 --> 03:44.320]  Well, just shy of 100,000 over the course of two days on Saturday and Sunday.
[03:44.840 --> 03:47.240]  Just... we can't break that 100,000 barrier, huh?
[03:47.320 --> 03:48.660]  We kind of have to get over that.
[03:48.760 --> 03:49.660]  Well, I'd love to do it.
[03:49.760 --> 03:51.880]  I think of all of us, between all of us, we can do it.
[03:52.000 --> 03:54.340]  It's a really good thing, and, um...
[03:54.340 --> 03:56.720]  It looks like... actually, it looks like the weather is going to cooperate.
[03:57.460 --> 03:58.200]  Yeah, we got...
[03:58.200 --> 04:00.100]  A little bit of rain last year, but, you know...
[04:00.100 --> 04:01.260]  We got the hurricane out of the way.
[04:01.600 --> 04:04.180]  Jose is... is gone, so that's not going to be a problem.
[04:04.820 --> 04:08.700]  Um... and, you know, rain or shine, these things happen, but, um...
[04:08.700 --> 04:11.120]  This, uh... looks like it's going to be, uh... pretty decent weather.
[04:11.640 --> 04:16.000]  Uh... for those people who have never experienced a world...
[04:16.000 --> 04:19.180]  Well, uh... the World Maker Faire is unique, because that's the one that takes place in New York.
[04:19.300 --> 04:21.460]  But, uh... a Maker Faire on a grand scale.
[04:21.460 --> 04:24.500]  For someone who has never experienced that before, how would you describe it to them?
[04:25.480 --> 04:29.080]  You know, I'd just say it's... it's a newfangled county fair.
[04:29.300 --> 04:33.340]  It's, um... it's all the best of people coming together and sharing what they do.
[04:33.460 --> 04:36.300]  Rockets, robots, food, health.
[04:36.780 --> 04:40.600]  Um... we have a fire-breathing dragon this year as well, which is awesome.
[04:41.080 --> 04:44.920]  Um... we're always looking for more fire, um... and more fire arts in New York.
[04:45.040 --> 04:49.920]  And we have something called the Heavy Meta Dragon, a group out of Canada that's bringing that down.
[04:49.920 --> 04:58.860]  And... and drones, and, um... it's just a... it's just, um... it's, you know, it's an exploration and, um...
[04:58.860 --> 05:04.480]  you know, a fun weekend to explore, meet new... you know, meet people and, um... see innovative things.
[05:04.760 --> 05:13.040]  You know, when I was a kid growing up, um... I know if I had, uh... had said to my mother that I was going to see a fire-breathing dragon...
[05:13.540 --> 05:18.500]  at a... at a newfangled county fair, um... the reaction probably wouldn't be what it is today.
[05:18.500 --> 05:24.700]  I think... I think, uh... we've evolved quite a bit in... in what kids are... are... are... are doing, how they're expressing themselves creatively.
[05:25.360 --> 05:29.800]  Uh... can you explain some of these... some of these projects, uh... particularly the fire-breathing dragon?
[05:30.160 --> 05:31.040]  Uh... I'd like to know about that.
[05:31.140 --> 05:31.460]  Sure.
[05:31.940 --> 05:39.500]  You know, I mean, I think the fire-breathing dragon, it... it started... these are sort of, um... acts of expression, you know, expression of people wanting to create...
[05:39.500 --> 05:41.620]  large-scale art objects.
[05:42.040 --> 05:48.400]  Um... this dragon has gone to Burning Man, so it's part of that, um... genre of kind of cool things that kind of, um...
[05:48.400 --> 05:49.860]  shock and awe.
[05:50.400 --> 06:05.140]  Um... but... but really, Maker Faire is a gathering of makers that, um... it doesn't matter what they do, whether they're doing, again, um... 3D printing, or... working with electronics, or knitting, or sewing, or crafting.
[06:05.480 --> 06:16.840]  It's really people that care about... care about materials, care about projects, care about physical objects, that come together, and showcase what they do, and kind of get high off of each other's work, and...
[06:17.300 --> 06:20.220]  you know, go away for another year, and come back, and...
[06:20.220 --> 06:21.780]  show what they're making again.
[06:22.040 --> 06:26.620]  So it's... it's really... um... it's... it's really a great thing, and I have to say that...
[06:26.620 --> 06:33.200]  we're doing it a lot for kids, to give them a chance to see, explore, and just, you know, meet people that...
[06:33.200 --> 06:34.860]  actually care about, you know, real things.
[06:35.120 --> 06:36.020]  So it's... it's good.
[06:36.020 --> 06:41.580]  You know, we... we meet so many kids at these, um... at these events, and, uh... we encourage others to go.
[06:41.820 --> 06:46.680]  I don't think I've ever met a kid who has gone, who didn't want to go the next year, because it's that much fun.
[06:46.800 --> 06:48.300]  There are... there are... there are... so many activities.
[06:48.620 --> 06:51.460]  Well, actually, most of them... yeah, most of them want to go the next weekend.
[06:51.640 --> 06:54.920]  I mean, we... I get notes from parents saying, okay, my kid can't wait another year.
[06:55.100 --> 06:55.840]  What can they do?
[06:56.040 --> 06:56.340]  Uh-huh.
[06:56.480 --> 06:57.380]  And what... what do you tell them?
[06:57.540 --> 06:58.440]  You know...
[06:58.440 --> 07:02.080]  Well, we tell them, you know, they can start, um... maker groups in their community.
[07:02.080 --> 07:14.420]  Maybe we're starting to see more and more makerspaces in schools and libraries, and we have online programs with maker camps and whatnot, but we tell them, this is a good sign, and, you know, let's get out there.
[07:14.540 --> 07:19.440]  So I think more things are happening, but it's... this is just the beginning.
[07:19.900 --> 07:20.120]  Uh-huh.
[07:20.400 --> 07:21.940]  Do you find most people get it?
[07:22.080 --> 07:23.320]  Do they get where you're coming from?
[07:23.460 --> 07:28.500]  They're not overly worried and concerned about what their kids might be exposed to?
[07:30.020 --> 07:35.420]  No, I think they... I actually think the... the really cool thing that happens is that parents and kids kind of come together.
[07:36.040 --> 07:43.740]  So all of the, you know, craziness with kids not talking to their parents or, you know, going off into their room, they find a common ground.
[07:44.120 --> 07:52.420]  And the one thing that's really great about Maker Faire, it's, you know, multicultural, it's multigenerational, and that's, like, just the great thing about people, right?
[07:52.420 --> 07:58.160]  And so I think that parents... parents like it, and then they're actually encouraged.
[07:59.420 --> 07:59.820]  Yeah.
[08:00.100 --> 08:00.620]  Get excited.
[08:00.840 --> 08:05.740]  When you say that's the great thing about people, that's the great thing about Queens, and I don't think you could have picked a better borough to have this in.
[08:06.500 --> 08:14.000]  It's just... it's so amazing because, you know, when you're... when you're stepping away from Maker Faire, you're in Corona, and it's just... it's the most awesome neighborhood.
[08:14.200 --> 08:17.220]  You can spend so much time just walking around there.
[08:17.420 --> 08:20.320]  And, of course, Chinatown is just a subway stop away as well.
[08:21.780 --> 08:31.300]  But we... you know, to toot our own horn a little bit, for the... we've brought the 2600 van, the Hacker van, the old phone company van, to this thing almost every year.
[08:31.720 --> 08:36.440]  And what we have this year is something even more than the 2600 van.
[08:36.960 --> 08:46.940]  It's a authentic, 100% genuine 1950s-era telephone booth with telephone inside, rotary dial and everything.
[08:46.940 --> 08:53.920]  And, Kyle, I believe you've been working really hard around the clock to hook this thing up to make it actually work, right?
[08:54.360 --> 08:55.260]  Yeah, yeah.
[08:55.360 --> 08:56.920]  I don't want to go into too much detail.
[08:57.200 --> 09:05.260]  There will be plenty of time over the weekend in that spirit of openness to share and to teach about our new phone booth.
[09:05.260 --> 09:10.420]  But we're basically bringing this relic.
[09:10.540 --> 09:11.260]  It's in great shape.
[09:11.260 --> 09:13.020]  And we're going to be putting it on display.
[09:13.060 --> 09:28.880]  And it's going to have a closed telephone circuit that we're going to invite people to pick up one end and maybe talk to their parent or talk to their best friend on the other end and display how that works.
[09:28.880 --> 09:33.820]  But basically, just using a couple components, a battery and a 300-ohm resistor.
[09:34.360 --> 09:36.280]  And it's really cool.
[09:36.380 --> 09:42.440]  We actually built the entire power battery and resistor.
[09:43.480 --> 09:45.820]  It fits basically inside a lunchbox.
[09:46.020 --> 09:50.600]  Yeah, but the phone booth itself basically fits inside the van and pretty much nothing else.
[09:50.720 --> 09:51.440]  It's huge.
[09:51.520 --> 09:52.540]  It's a big booth.
[09:52.580 --> 09:55.920]  Have you ever... anyone out there has ever tried to lift a phone booth?
[09:55.920 --> 09:57.080]  They are heavy.
[09:57.240 --> 09:57.900]  My God.
[09:58.160 --> 10:00.460]  It takes three or four people to do this.
[10:01.480 --> 10:03.140]  So it's... but it's going to be worth it.
[10:03.240 --> 10:06.220]  It's going to be so much fun to get the thing set up.
[10:06.380 --> 10:10.500]  And I believe, Kyle, you're talking about connecting the thing to other phones.
[10:10.600 --> 10:12.540]  We bring... we've done this in the past, too.
[10:12.620 --> 10:15.220]  We've brought old phones, rotary dial phones.
[10:15.320 --> 10:16.920]  We ask kids, hey, do you know how this works?
[10:17.460 --> 10:18.220]  Most of them do.
[10:18.400 --> 10:20.500]  Some have never used a rotary phone in their lives.
[10:20.500 --> 10:24.600]  But it's just amazing to see the interest, the fascination with the old technology.
[10:24.600 --> 10:29.020]  But what we have this year, which I think is really awesome, is a candlestick phone.
[10:29.140 --> 10:30.620]  You want to describe what a candlestick phone is?
[10:30.740 --> 10:31.080]  Sure.
[10:31.200 --> 10:31.320]  Yeah.
[10:31.400 --> 10:32.900]  It's from the, like, 20s and 30s.
[10:32.980 --> 10:36.820]  And our candlestick phone has a... what's called a...
[10:39.480 --> 10:46.580]  a district or a circuit box for your party line that basically holds a magneto and the ringer itself.
[10:46.580 --> 10:47.760]  It's really interesting.
[10:47.760 --> 10:49.520]  You can open this old cabinet up.
[10:49.620 --> 10:54.860]  But this is kind of something that was inspired by us going to Maker Faire.
[10:55.000 --> 11:08.480]  And just the popularity of putting an old piece of technology out and asking young people about it inspired us to continue that and sort of evolve our exhibit there.
[11:08.480 --> 11:10.240]  And this is going to be part of that.
[11:10.360 --> 11:18.700]  So we're going to hopefully hook that up and maybe even make one or the other of these phones ring on our closed-circuit telephone network.
[11:18.800 --> 11:23.180]  I think the ringer is actually bypassed in the telephone to make it work.
[11:23.320 --> 11:27.140]  But we may be doing some investigating and so on during the event.
[11:27.140 --> 11:33.100]  But I'm sure you should know that all of this, as Kyle was saying, was inspired by us at the last Maker Faire.
[11:33.220 --> 11:37.380]  I think we were just standing around the van saying, wouldn't it be a good idea to get a phone booth from the 1950s?
[11:37.480 --> 11:39.520]  And next thing you know, that's exactly what we've done.
[11:39.720 --> 11:42.360]  And the other thing is we wanted to make it work.
[11:42.540 --> 11:50.140]  And we'll do other fun things, maybe even amplify some of the conversations on this phone network and that kind of fun.
[11:50.460 --> 11:51.360]  But enough about us.
[11:51.360 --> 11:56.220]  Tell us more about the program that's happening at the Maker Faire this year.
[11:56.940 --> 12:02.280]  Because not only are there all kinds of outdoor displays, there are all kinds of things going on inside as well, right?
[12:03.020 --> 12:03.800]  Absolutely, absolutely.
[12:03.960 --> 12:06.760]  I will quickly say, though, exactly what I had said in the beginning.
[12:06.900 --> 12:11.860]  Like, you go one year, you come together, you get inspired, and you want to come and bring something back another year.
[12:12.040 --> 12:14.420]  So good on you guys for doing something.
[12:14.420 --> 12:15.180]  I love it.
[12:15.300 --> 12:16.960]  I just wonder what we're going to have next year.
[12:18.020 --> 12:19.860]  I'm afraid of what we might come up with.
[12:19.860 --> 12:21.720]  I know, but that's the beauty.
[12:21.900 --> 12:22.480]  That's what I love.
[12:23.280 --> 12:24.280]  Yes, there's lots of...
[12:24.280 --> 12:26.020]  We have over 100 makers inside.
[12:26.280 --> 12:33.120]  We actually have about 30 makers that came, some together and some individual from NYU ITP's program.
[12:33.340 --> 12:35.900]  So lots of kind of electronics and hacking projects.
[12:36.340 --> 12:43.100]  We have a whole dark room inside with low light, no light, kind of LED-type projects, which are just great.
[12:43.320 --> 12:45.580]  We have some really great people this year.
[12:45.680 --> 12:46.920]  I don't know if you guys are...
[12:46.920 --> 12:48.640]  If you know Anouk Wiprick.
[12:48.640 --> 12:49.880]  She's coming in.
[12:50.120 --> 12:58.140]  She actually does a lot with wearables, and she actually hit our radar screen with Joe DiPrima from Architect, where he kind of created...
[12:58.140 --> 13:00.100]  They worked together on a Faraday dress for her.
[13:00.220 --> 13:00.760]  Okay, yeah.
[13:00.820 --> 13:02.700]  Not only being beautiful, like...
[13:02.700 --> 13:03.000]  Yeah.
[13:03.860 --> 13:04.440]  So we have her.
[13:04.660 --> 13:09.720]  I'm going to tell you, I am so inspired by the work that Jose Gomez-Marquez and Anna Young are doing.
[13:09.720 --> 13:16.420]  They're originally out of MIT, but they're maker health, maker nurses, wanting to get maker spaces in hospitals.
[13:16.720 --> 13:22.320]  And, you know, they're really evangelists, saying, you know, first responders are out there.
[13:22.440 --> 13:22.860]  They're hacking.
[13:23.020 --> 13:23.380]  They're making.
[13:24.000 --> 13:25.760]  They're really, like, front line.
[13:25.760 --> 13:29.860]  And how do we, you know, how do we get this into hospitals and more?
[13:30.000 --> 13:31.040]  So I love what they're doing.
[13:31.180 --> 13:35.340]  That's a really intriguing idea to do that, to bring maker spaces into hospitals.
[13:35.340 --> 13:36.600]  I never would have even thought of that.
[13:37.440 --> 13:38.340]  No, they're really...
[13:38.340 --> 13:41.260]  In the Bay Area, they had a whole tour.
[13:41.520 --> 13:43.740]  So stop by, there's a whole maker health area.
[13:43.740 --> 13:47.400]  And I have to say, like, this is where we can, you know, we can change the world.
[13:47.520 --> 13:48.660]  And, you know, we need to do that.
[13:49.560 --> 13:53.200]  On the electronic side, we have Massimo Banzai from Arduino there.
[13:53.320 --> 13:55.100]  And they've had a big few years with Arduino.
[13:55.980 --> 13:57.220]  We have Raspberry Pi.
[13:57.460 --> 13:58.720]  And I'm not sure...
[13:58.720 --> 14:00.600]  Eben is not speaking, but I believe he's coming.
[14:00.740 --> 14:03.920]  And I think he's coming with his wife and his little daughter, which is great.
[14:03.920 --> 14:08.400]  And we have Jason Kreidner from BugleboardFoundation.org.
[14:08.400 --> 14:13.780]  So kind of the fathers and founders of a lot of the microelectronic boards.
[14:14.180 --> 14:19.180]  I love Steven Ritz, who is from the Bronx.
[14:19.180 --> 14:21.300]  And he's got something called the Green Bronx Machine.
[14:21.460 --> 14:22.920]  And he's taking...
[14:22.920 --> 14:32.720]  Getting kids in the Bronx specifically excited about kind of food and nutrition and getting them learning by growing their own food and taking it to the community.
[14:32.720 --> 14:34.100]  And I love what he's doing.
[14:34.280 --> 14:39.220]  And it's actually being adopted by the Department of Education after they realized he wasn't kind of crazy.
[14:39.420 --> 14:42.580]  And this guy actually, you know, you want kids to do well in school.
[14:42.760 --> 14:43.860]  You feed their brain first.
[14:43.960 --> 14:46.100]  And you do that by, you know, giving them good food.
[14:46.280 --> 14:46.640]  Absolutely.
[14:47.540 --> 14:49.080]  You know, so I love...
[14:49.080 --> 14:50.540]  And just the passion, the community.
[14:50.880 --> 14:53.240]  We've got John Park, which you guys may know.
[14:53.360 --> 14:54.680]  He's working with Adafruit now.
[14:55.180 --> 14:57.040]  He's bringing some of his pieces.
[14:57.700 --> 15:00.220]  We also have the folks from Les Machine.
[15:00.560 --> 15:03.700]  And if you haven't looked at it, look up Les Machine.
[15:03.940 --> 15:07.380]  They're from a city in Nantes, in France, N-A-N-T-E-S.
[15:07.640 --> 15:12.840]  They create these large-scale art pieces that are just crazy beautiful.
[15:12.840 --> 15:17.860]  And they're bringing one of the small pieces, but that'll be around the Rocket Roundabout.
[15:18.040 --> 15:19.600]  And definitely something you want to check out.
[15:19.900 --> 15:20.300]  Wow.
[15:20.380 --> 15:24.900]  We have a whole area of young makers and kids doing kind of cool things, which is great.
[15:26.160 --> 15:28.080]  Diacoque and Mentos, everyone loves them.
[15:28.460 --> 15:31.880]  We've got our friends at Digi-Key that are there that are doing the Make Electronics stage.
[15:31.920 --> 15:37.360]  We've got the favorites, like Power Racing Series, which these guys are getting bigger and better.
[15:37.500 --> 15:38.040]  And I love it.
[15:38.040 --> 15:50.400]  You know, for $500 or less, which this started in a makerspace in Chicago, Pumping Station One, the idea is to teach, like, have fun, bring communities together, kind of compete.
[15:50.780 --> 16:02.200]  But again, you know, when you look at some of the things like, you know, the more standard robotics clubs and programs that cost like $5,000 for a school to get going, this is for $500.
[16:02.200 --> 16:05.740]  And I'm really hoping that they can take this program and get it into school.
[16:06.000 --> 16:08.080]  So, Stop Bipower Racing Series.
[16:08.940 --> 16:09.340]  Wow.
[16:09.340 --> 16:10.580]  You know, and it goes on and on.
[16:10.720 --> 16:11.640]  Sherry, it's just, you know...
[16:11.640 --> 16:12.120]  It's incredible.
[16:12.380 --> 16:19.980]  I mean, you've tapped into a real passion that people have in the hacker community, in the do-it-yourself community, activism, you name it.
[16:20.040 --> 16:23.040]  People are just pooling their resources and sharing ideas.
[16:23.040 --> 16:27.340]  And the spirit is just so open and healthy.
[16:28.320 --> 16:33.820]  It's something that I continue to be amazed by, even though this is the eighth incarnation here.
[16:34.040 --> 16:36.660]  And of course, there are many more throughout the world as well.
[16:36.880 --> 16:41.520]  But are you ever just blown away by the amount of reaction that you guys get?
[16:42.560 --> 16:44.700]  You know, I have to say I love it.
[16:44.820 --> 16:47.540]  And it's, you know, me and my team, we work a lot.
[16:47.540 --> 16:53.540]  But I have to say that we do, it's so worth it when, you know, all of the makers and you guys see it.
[16:53.620 --> 16:55.400]  Like, I saw I love about 2600, too.
[16:56.160 --> 17:00.320]  You come there and you give, you know, you give people an opportunity to meet and talk.
[17:00.460 --> 17:06.100]  I mean, you get to talk to people and you get to share ideas and you get to, you know, move things forward.
[17:06.140 --> 17:08.180]  And I have to say it's all worth it.
[17:08.260 --> 17:08.780]  And I love it.
[17:08.920 --> 17:11.040]  And we meet so many of our listeners there, too.
[17:11.200 --> 17:11.880]  So many B.A.R.
[17:11.920 --> 17:12.960]  listeners come to this.
[17:13.120 --> 17:16.760]  And it's great because then they meet these people that they wouldn't have met otherwise.
[17:16.760 --> 17:20.600]  And it's just this amazing exchange of ideas and information.
[17:22.120 --> 17:22.520]  Exactly.
[17:22.820 --> 17:23.080]  I love it.
[17:23.220 --> 17:28.520]  In fact, I think two years ago, one of the women that won tickets actually found me on site.
[17:28.680 --> 17:31.220]  We got to chat with her, too, from the ticket giveaway.
[17:31.340 --> 17:31.540]  Wow.
[17:31.660 --> 17:32.440]  So that's just awesome.
[17:32.660 --> 17:36.660]  Speaking of which, we are doing that again this year, another ticket giveaway.
[17:37.260 --> 17:41.220]  In fact, we're going to try and do this without disconnecting you, Sherry.
[17:41.520 --> 17:43.820]  Hopefully this phone can handle two calls at once.
[17:43.820 --> 17:44.200]  We'll see.
[17:44.760 --> 17:48.460]  The phone number is 347-335-0818.
[17:48.740 --> 17:50.240]  If you call that number and Rob T.
[17:50.360 --> 17:56.740]  Firefly on the other side of the room picks up the phone and asks you to give him an email address, yes, you have to have an email address for this to work.
[17:57.980 --> 18:01.180]  That means you've won a pair of tickets to either Saturday or Sunday.
[18:01.240 --> 18:04.900]  Or I believe, Sherry, they can go Saturday and Sunday by themselves as one person.
[18:04.940 --> 18:05.060]  Either day, yeah.
[18:05.220 --> 18:08.100]  Yeah, so basically you get two tickets that you can do whatever you want with.
[18:08.720 --> 18:11.220]  And Rob, you're going to press that button now and hopefully not disconnect.
[18:12.900 --> 18:14.080]  Okay, did it work?
[18:14.480 --> 18:15.400]  Are you talking to somebody?
[18:15.800 --> 18:16.320]  Yes, I am.
[18:16.440 --> 18:16.780]  Okay, good.
[18:16.920 --> 18:17.700]  So Rob has the phone.
[18:17.780 --> 18:18.840]  And Sherry, you're still there, right?
[18:18.960 --> 18:20.480]  I am still here.
[18:20.600 --> 18:20.800]  Wow.
[18:21.300 --> 18:21.520]  Okay.
[18:21.700 --> 18:23.940]  Rob, can you keep your voice down just a little bit because you're...
[18:23.940 --> 18:24.440]  Okay, thank you.
[18:26.040 --> 18:26.760]  So, all right.
[18:26.880 --> 18:30.380]  Now, Sherry, this is eight years of this going on.
[18:30.500 --> 18:34.180]  What have you noticed that has changed in those eight years in the Maker Faire world?
[18:35.900 --> 18:39.660]  Well, this is eight years in New York, but we've been doing it for 12 years.
[18:39.960 --> 18:47.880]  And just so you know, there'll be 220 Maker Faires around the world, with the largest being Bay Area, New York, Rome, and Shenzhen.
[18:47.880 --> 18:50.520]  And what do I think that's changed?
[18:50.660 --> 18:52.540]  I actually think that there's more excitement.
[18:53.080 --> 18:55.260]  The makers are getting younger, which I love that.
[18:55.680 --> 18:58.100]  Well, how much younger can they possibly get?
[18:58.400 --> 19:00.080]  I mean, I've seen five-year-old makers.
[19:00.960 --> 19:02.900]  That's really kind of scary, almost.
[19:03.120 --> 19:03.240]  I'm telling you.
[19:03.500 --> 19:03.740]  Yeah.
[19:04.000 --> 19:08.680]  But, you know, it's actually a good thing, and even getting making in schools.
[19:09.220 --> 19:18.020]  And I have to say, we had such great support from the last administration, and I really don't want to get into politics, but I have to say, we had a great support from Obama.
[19:18.280 --> 19:28.000]  And through having the White House Maker Faire and STEM and STEM education and workforce development, and that's getting them retrained, we have a good running start.
[19:28.000 --> 19:31.800]  And so, it's up to us now to kind of keep this moving and keep it going forward.
[19:31.800 --> 19:35.000]  And I have to say, I still see the same level of excitement.
[19:35.000 --> 19:38.780]  I see new projects that are coming to the table.
[19:38.880 --> 19:42.600]  I see groups coming together, like Aerial Sports League, so drones.
[19:42.860 --> 19:50.520]  I mean, this is a whole area, and if you stop by, there's a whole drone zone, and we have a whole drone racing area in the back.
[19:51.700 --> 19:57.480]  So, kind of fun, competition, people hacking, playing around with technology.
[19:58.660 --> 20:18.200]  Robotics, and actually girls, getting girls into making, which again, something that's not always been obvious for lots of reasons, but girls and actually kids that don't necessarily do well in, you know, regular sports or kind of those, you know, those school activities really feel at home at Maker Faire,
[20:18.360 --> 20:19.840]  where, you know, it's kind of cool to be smart.
[20:20.600 --> 20:23.440]  And that, that's just great to see that growing.
[20:26.080 --> 20:26.920]  Well, interesting.
[20:27.240 --> 20:35.980]  You mentioned also the Obama White House, not to get too political here, but have you noticed any kind of a difference since, in the day since?
[20:36.380 --> 20:38.020]  Yeah, there's nothing.
[20:38.220 --> 20:41.220]  I mean, there's not a, you know, there's no chief technology officer.
[20:41.520 --> 20:48.760]  The whole Office of Science and Technology Programs, I mean, at one point, there were, I think, like, 113, 120 people.
[20:49.220 --> 20:53.220]  I think it pretty much got cut to nothing, and I don't know if it's being built up or not.
[20:53.380 --> 20:57.020]  But again, we now, I mean, we've been connected.
[20:57.100 --> 21:00.920]  We have a group called the Nation of Makers that are coming, and they're working together.
[21:01.160 --> 21:08.280]  The one thing that's great about this community, and we're definitely community, and I know that you guys know that with 2600, is that we can do this.
[21:08.500 --> 21:21.920]  And through, through things like even Make is introducing something called MakerShare, which is an online program where you can, or a platform, where we can start sharing projects and actually kind of understanding who's doing what, so that there is some,
[21:21.920 --> 21:27.460]  you know, social currency around making, and really trying to find people and coming together.
[21:27.660 --> 21:40.640]  So, I don't expect a whole lot from this administration, but I think that we actually have the power and the spirit and the community to make things happen, and so that's why we continue to move forward.
[21:42.220 --> 21:42.660]  Wow.
[21:42.660 --> 21:48.700]  It sounds pretty inspirational, and definitely something that I think a lot of people should get involved with.
[21:48.820 --> 21:54.280]  Again, Maker Faire taking place this weekend, the eighth Maker Faire in Queens, the World Maker Faire.
[21:55.260 --> 21:59.660]  Do you want to give the specific information as to location and times and all that?
[21:59.820 --> 22:00.100]  Sure.
[22:00.740 --> 22:01.660]  Absolutely, absolutely.
[22:01.860 --> 22:03.960]  It is... Maker Faire is Saturday and Sunday.
[22:04.200 --> 22:10.180]  If you go to our website, it's Maker Faire, Faire with an E, M-A-K-E-R-F-A-I-R-E dot com.
[22:10.340 --> 22:11.100]  It's 10 a.m.
[22:11.220 --> 22:12.040]  to 6 p.m.
[22:12.480 --> 22:17.060]  It's at the New York Hall of Science, which is in Queens, Flushing Meadows, Corona Park.
[22:17.800 --> 22:18.620]  Ride your bike.
[22:18.620 --> 22:19.640]  We have Bike Ballet.
[22:19.800 --> 22:21.440]  Take the train, the 7 train.
[22:22.680 --> 22:23.340]  Get there.
[22:23.500 --> 22:26.940]  It'll be great, and we look forward to seeing and hosting all of you.
[22:26.940 --> 22:30.240]  So... And I should point out also, we've given away one pair of tickets.
[22:30.480 --> 22:31.620]  Not that we're not getting calls.
[22:31.780 --> 22:32.960]  It's just that our phone has jammed.
[22:33.440 --> 22:39.260]  And when we disconnect with you later, Sherry, we'll take the second winner.
[22:39.480 --> 22:41.920]  So you do have a chance for one more pair of tickets.
[22:42.620 --> 22:45.520]  So just hold on to your telephones there.
[22:46.340 --> 22:47.780]  And Voltaire, I believe you have something.
[22:47.920 --> 22:50.660]  You mentioned the Shenzhen and Rome Maker Faire.
[22:50.760 --> 22:54.900]  How much is the culture different in each city?
[22:55.960 --> 22:56.780]  Good question.
[22:57.080 --> 22:59.480]  I will say that the spirit exists.
[23:00.320 --> 23:06.480]  Shenzhen is actually very... Oh, kind of very more manufacturing-oriented, as you can imagine.
[23:06.820 --> 23:13.360]  I kind of laugh because we get our learned to solder pins and things like that from the folks at Seed Studios there.
[23:13.500 --> 23:15.580]  And I didn't see a whole lot of hands-on.
[23:15.760 --> 23:17.780]  Like, I see more hands-on in the United States.
[23:18.120 --> 23:24.520]  In Rome, I see projects that are more more finished, more polished, more, you know, designed.
[23:25.200 --> 23:28.240]  But the spirit still exists, which is really wonderful.
[23:28.560 --> 23:31.300]  And I have to say, it's so great that this, you know, translates.
[23:31.320 --> 23:34.480]  We're all humans, and we all share the same attributes.
[23:34.800 --> 23:37.240]  And those things are good.
[23:40.220 --> 23:40.700]  Wow.
[23:40.700 --> 23:44.540]  That's really, again, very amazing.
[23:45.780 --> 23:54.360]  The other thing I'll say is that we are becoming this international community, which there are a lot of makers that travel around and attend different shows.
[23:54.360 --> 23:56.420]  And we do have a strong international following.
[23:57.340 --> 23:59.280]  There's also a camaraderie.
[23:59.440 --> 24:01.920]  Like, I actually am kind of Benjamin Tink.
[24:02.000 --> 24:03.380]  I don't know if you're aware of.
[24:03.460 --> 24:05.040]  He's one of the founders of WeShare.
[24:05.560 --> 24:08.940]  And that's O-U-I-S-H-I-S-H-A-R-E.
[24:10.120 --> 24:11.940]  It started over in Paris.
[24:11.940 --> 24:16.260]  And it's kind of like a collaborative economy and open technology and social innovation.
[24:16.760 --> 24:21.260]  Like, he had reached out to me and said, I'm coming, you know, I want to meet different people.
[24:21.480 --> 24:27.220]  And so we have a whole group, this international circuit of makers, which I also find pretty exciting.
[24:27.460 --> 24:30.360]  And they also care about things like social impact.
[24:30.740 --> 24:44.320]  And, you know, Sam Block is another one that has a whole group called Communitaire that's working to take, you know, take technology to kind of developing communities or communities in need around the world.
[24:44.740 --> 24:48.640]  So there's this, there's, there's something that's really special here.
[24:48.960 --> 24:51.420]  And it's not, it's not all about money.
[24:51.600 --> 24:57.920]  It's really about, you know, sharing and caring and innovating and making things better.
[24:57.920 --> 25:01.560]  And it's kind of wonderful that we get an opportunity to teach that to kids as well.
[25:02.340 --> 25:02.820]  Absolutely.
[25:03.140 --> 25:03.320]  Go ahead.
[25:03.440 --> 25:13.260]  I know in past hopes, we've discussed the controversy around the San Francisco Maker Fair taking, accepting money from DARPA, which is a military organization.
[25:13.980 --> 25:20.460]  Have, what has been your, like, I know in the past New York hasn't decided not to take, or hasn't done that.
[25:20.580 --> 25:22.580]  And what is the current situation with that?
[25:27.920 --> 25:33.660]  And, you know, you know, it's a real hard thing, because honestly, this, we, we don't make a lot of money here at all.
[25:33.880 --> 25:39.400]  I mean, I wish, you know, we're, we're for profit company, but I have to tell you, we still continue to struggle to kind of pull this off.
[25:39.980 --> 25:47.440]  We do it a little bit through sponsorship and through attendee revenue, because makers, we actually bring makers in and we don't, we don't charge them.
[25:47.820 --> 25:50.900]  We give them the space and we, you know, give them a nice platform.
[25:52.660 --> 25:55.420]  It's hard, you know, the DARPA thing, I don't even know where to go with that one.
[25:55.640 --> 25:58.920]  We haven't had any interest or involvement from that group in a while.
[25:59.240 --> 26:03.760]  But, you know, lots of good things have come out of DARPA too, even though that there's a dark side as well.
[26:04.300 --> 26:08.820]  But we haven't, I mean, I don't, I don't have any dollars coming from them at all.
[26:09.240 --> 26:17.080]  And it actually, we never had, it was part of another part of our company, but we did have a military back when we were doing Maker Faire Detroit.
[26:17.720 --> 26:19.040]  We talked a lot about it.
[26:19.120 --> 26:20.140]  We talked with the community.
[26:20.880 --> 26:26.920]  Part of what I feel is that even like with most groups at Maker Faire is that, you know, it's a, it's an open platform.
[26:27.140 --> 26:29.240]  You know, people will listen or they won't listen.
[26:29.620 --> 26:32.820]  I think things get, there are many layers to this.
[26:32.940 --> 26:46.020]  And again, we've tried to stay away from politics in general because we're really trying to make this about sharing and getting, you know, our mission is to make, make makers and primarily focused on kids.
[26:46.540 --> 26:48.920]  So I don't know if I'm answering your question, but...
[26:48.920 --> 26:52.060]  Well, no, I think, I think you're addressing it pretty, pretty straightforwardly.
[26:52.200 --> 26:54.560]  And this, this is something that, that is, is brought up.
[26:54.640 --> 26:57.000]  And, you know, we've, we've had kids come up to us and mention this.
[26:57.080 --> 27:00.160]  And I think it's great that people are aware and are thinking about these things.
[27:00.360 --> 27:01.500]  And we're having the conversation.
[27:01.660 --> 27:03.240]  That's, that's really the most important thing.
[27:03.800 --> 27:04.520]  Uh, but, uh...
[27:04.520 --> 27:10.980]  Yeah, you know, and, and I'll, I'll tell you like two years ago, or the last year in New York or Bay Area, we had the Department of Energy.
[27:11.960 --> 27:16.300]  And I think something like seven of the, I don't know, 16 groups came together.
[27:16.620 --> 27:18.460]  It was really great to have them there.
[27:18.620 --> 27:20.480]  We've had NASA in the past.
[27:20.480 --> 27:22.660]  We don't, we haven't, we don't have them this year.
[27:22.660 --> 27:26.360]  You know, again, the government's sort of like, you know, everything's sort of stopped.
[27:26.620 --> 27:26.840]  Wow.
[27:26.920 --> 27:29.800]  Is that, is that really a direct result, not having NASA there because of that?
[27:30.740 --> 27:31.740]  Well, I don't know.
[27:31.880 --> 27:32.860]  I mean, it's hard to say.
[27:33.040 --> 27:39.500]  I don't, I've, I've seen a lot of things just sort of halt as companies and even internal groups are trying to figure out like what's going on.
[27:39.580 --> 27:39.960]  Interesting.
[27:40.260 --> 27:55.200]  But we do think it's important and we do, um, you know, again, I think everyone should have a voice and I think we should all have kind of discussions around it and we should be as transparent as possible and people will make the decisions that are right for them.
[27:55.440 --> 28:00.360]  But, um, you know, right now, our main motivation is really kind of, you know, sharing knowledge.
[28:01.180 --> 28:01.500]  Yeah.
[28:01.680 --> 28:04.260]  And, and that's what I get out of Maker Faire.
[28:04.600 --> 28:17.720]  Not only this one, but I've been to many ones and, uh, I've, I've heard reports from many others and that just seems to be the overall spirit, uh, and, and open communication and, and sharing of technology and, and just, um, the hacker spirit.
[28:17.720 --> 28:21.520]  You guys really seem to get the hacker spirit, which I think is, it's pretty awesome.
[28:22.260 --> 28:25.980]  Um, and I think that's a nod to, you know, we, we started at O'Reilly Media.
[28:26.220 --> 28:35.480]  So I think, uh, the whole like open source participatory culture sharing is really part of like the DNA of where this, where this event came from.
[28:35.480 --> 28:37.760]  So we tried to keep that, that going.
[28:37.760 --> 28:38.620]  Mm-hmm.
[28:38.920 --> 28:39.180]  All right.
[28:39.240 --> 28:43.360]  Well, uh, well, almost at the end of this half hour, is there anything else that you want to let people know about?
[28:43.480 --> 28:49.320]  Maybe things that are, uh, um, unique and different for, for this particular Maker Faire that, uh, people should know about?
[28:50.400 --> 28:55.100]  You know, I would say, I would say come, be open, um, explore.
[28:55.320 --> 28:57.120]  We try to, my team works really hard.
[28:57.220 --> 28:58.480]  They look at every application.
[28:59.060 --> 29:07.740]  We, you know, we really try to find and, um, salute and give makers, you know, a great venue for them to showcase what they do.
[29:07.760 --> 29:09.540]  Which isn't always an easy job.
[29:10.200 --> 29:16.660]  And we, you know, but, but you'll, you'll see a little bit of everything from music to culture, to fun performances.
[29:17.620 --> 29:20.000]  There's something really for everyone at Maker Faire.
[29:20.240 --> 29:24.400]  And I think that, um, as much as you can do to spread the word, that's great.
[29:24.940 --> 29:30.320]  Dale, who's our founder, did a great piece on Medium, um, that, that says why Maker Faire is important.
[29:30.540 --> 29:32.620]  It just, he just put it out a couple of days ago.
[29:32.960 --> 29:39.040]  Um, it, it might be great to kind of, if anyone cares to look at that, because it really is something truly special.
[29:39.100 --> 29:40.400]  I'm really proud of it.
[29:40.460 --> 29:41.340]  I'm proud of my team.
[29:41.440 --> 29:42.360]  I'm proud of the makers.
[29:42.660 --> 29:55.460]  And I so love the fact that it translates around the world and it really gives people, uh, a forum to talk about interesting, cool things that maybe they just don't have an opportunity to, and you know, kind of every day.
[29:55.700 --> 30:02.340]  Now, someone listening to this saying, saying that they really want to get involved as well as attend, is there still space for them to do that?
[30:02.580 --> 30:02.700]  Absolutely.
[30:02.700 --> 30:03.320]  How do, how do they do that?
[30:03.680 --> 30:04.040]  Absolutely.
[30:04.660 --> 30:04.920]  Yeah.
[30:05.080 --> 30:11.420]  You know, I will say that yes, yes, there's a price to get in, but we also have, if you want to volunteer, we have something called the Traveler Program.
[30:13.180 --> 30:17.900]  All right, Shay, you seem to be wandering off into, uh, into bad reception land.
[30:18.040 --> 30:18.920]  Can, can you?
[30:19.200 --> 30:19.420]  Oh.
[30:19.680 --> 30:20.540]  Okay, that's better.
[30:20.760 --> 30:20.940]  Oh, shoot.
[30:21.260 --> 30:21.740]  Yeah, go ahead.
[30:21.900 --> 30:22.140]  Okay.
[30:22.340 --> 30:22.540]  Yep.
[30:22.780 --> 30:29.840]  Yes, but we have something called, um, Travelers, which our volunteers will teach you and kind of give you a passport so you can actually go to different places.
[30:29.900 --> 30:43.020]  But, um, if you, if you, um, email travelers at makerfair.com or go to makerfair.com, go to the New York page and, um, just click on the area that says, let's see, what does it say?
[30:43.140 --> 30:46.300]  For, for volunteers, our Traveler Program, go there.
[30:46.520 --> 30:48.660]  Uh, it'll be, I guarantee you'll meet new friends.
[30:48.660 --> 30:50.520]  I think it's like four hours or something.
[30:50.520 --> 30:51.260]  You'll get a ticket.
[30:51.840 --> 30:54.200]  Uh, it's a great way to experience Maker Faire, too.
[30:54.260 --> 30:54.920]  A very good point.
[30:55.080 --> 30:56.280]  Thank you, Manuel, for bringing that up.
[30:56.360 --> 30:56.940]  Sure, no problem.
[30:57.240 --> 31:03.020]  Uh, and again, makerfair.com, that's spelled M-A-K-E-R-F-A-I-R-E.com.
[31:03.160 --> 31:04.880]  That has all the info on, on everything.
[31:05.240 --> 31:11.260]  Again, Maker Faire, World Maker Faire taking place this Saturday and Sunday at the, um, uh, the Hall of Science.
[31:11.580 --> 31:12.280]  Am I saying it right?
[31:12.660 --> 31:12.780]  That's right.
[31:12.980 --> 31:13.640]  That's Hall of Science.
[31:13.880 --> 31:15.220]  That's right, New York, and I saw it, New York Hall of Science, yep.
[31:15.340 --> 31:29.260]  Yes, uh, by that, that, uh, across the, uh, Grand Central Parkway from those, uh, those globes, you know, that the World's Fair used to be at, which I think is just a great parallel because that took place in the early 60s and was, uh, kind of, uh, looking forward to the future that we might even be in today.
[31:30.760 --> 31:31.080]  Exactly.
[31:31.400 --> 31:31.760]  All right.
[31:32.060 --> 31:33.440]  Sherry, we'll see you over the weekend.
[31:33.660 --> 31:35.300]  Well, thank you, and yeah, sounds good.
[31:35.400 --> 31:40.520]  I look forward to seeing you, Emmanuel, and the whole team, and, um, and everyone, and, uh, you know, keep doing great things.
[31:40.640 --> 31:44.420]  I love being on your program, and I love what you're up to, the $2,600.
[31:44.700 --> 31:46.280]  And you're going to love our pay phone booth.
[31:46.440 --> 31:48.180]  When you see our phone booth, you'll love that, too.
[31:48.180 --> 31:48.900]  I can't wait to see it.
[31:48.980 --> 31:49.800]  I can't wait to see it.
[31:49.920 --> 31:51.580]  Okay, thanks so much for being a part of this.
[31:51.700 --> 31:51.780]  Thank you for doing that, too.
[31:52.420 --> 31:52.660]  All right.
[31:52.780 --> 31:53.340]  Okay, wonderful.
[31:53.580 --> 31:53.920]  Take care.
[31:54.040 --> 31:54.280]  Take care.
[31:54.320 --> 31:54.540]  Bye-bye.
[31:55.480 --> 32:03.200]  And as, um, as promised, um, we, uh, as soon as we figure out how to hang up the phone, uh, we're going to take one more phone call.
[32:03.260 --> 32:14.660]  Whoever has been ringing the line all that time, you're wasting your time because, uh, yeah, you know, we're waiting for that to cycle out so we can, uh, uh, give the chance to somebody who, who doesn't have, uh, a mega... You know what?
[32:14.660 --> 32:15.920]  Just pick it up and hang up.
[32:16.240 --> 32:16.400]  There.
[32:17.280 --> 32:18.240]  You're too nice, Rob.
[32:18.420 --> 32:18.840]  Too nice.
[32:18.980 --> 32:20.240]  You're waiting for them to, to get bored.
[32:20.460 --> 32:23.620]  Okay, the phone number, 347-335-0818.
[32:23.780 --> 32:27.340]  First person calling in gets a pair of tickets to Maker Faire this weekend.
[32:27.740 --> 32:29.200]  Uh, you need an email address.
[32:29.380 --> 32:31.040]  Just give Rob your email address.
[32:31.320 --> 32:36.660]  Don't, uh, get into a long conversation with him because he's needed for other responsibilities, uh, namely to get our guest.
[32:36.840 --> 32:38.800]  We're giving our phone a real workout today.
[32:39.640 --> 32:40.420]  Uh, Maker Faire.
[32:40.900 --> 32:43.100]  Looking forward to, uh, to that this weekend.
[32:43.300 --> 32:47.900]  More history, more, uh, BAI listeners and, uh, uh, all kinds of other things.
[32:48.300 --> 32:57.040]  Um, we have a, uh, I guess we're going to be contacting as soon as we get this contest out of the way, but here's a story that I wanted to, uh, focus on because it's kind of dramatic.
[32:57.600 --> 33:14.520]  Uh, in, um, in July, the director of the World Wide Web Consortium, um, overruled dozens of members' objections to publishing a DRM standard without a compromise to protect accessibility, security research, archiving, and competition.
[33:14.860 --> 33:26.620]  Um, our friends at EFF appealed the decision, the first ever appeal in W3C as their known history, uh, which concluded last week with a deeply divided membership.
[33:27.380 --> 33:29.560]  90, uh, what is it?
[33:29.680 --> 33:35.520]  I'm sorry, 58.4% of the group voted to go on with publication and the, uh, it's not a very sizable majority.
[33:35.700 --> 33:42.900]  The W3C did so on Monday, an unprecedented move in a body that has always operated on consensus and compromise.
[33:43.300 --> 33:52.980]  In their public statements about the standard, the W3C executive, um, repeatedly said they didn't think the DRM advocates would be willing to compromise.
[33:53.400 --> 33:58.220]  And in the absence of such willingness, the exec has given them everything they demanded.
[33:58.420 --> 34:00.860]  This is a bad day for the W3C.
[34:01.020 --> 34:06.180]  It's a day it publishes a standard designed to control rather than empower web users.
[34:06.440 --> 34:11.060]  That standard, uh, that was explicitly published without any protections.
[34:11.060 --> 34:18.720]  Even the most minimal compromise was rejected without discussion, um, and intransigence that the, uh, W3C leadership tacitly approved.
[34:18.720 --> 34:29.660]  It's the day the W3C changed its process to, um, reward stonewalling over compromise provided those doing the stonewalling are the biggest corporations in the consortium.
[34:29.820 --> 34:36.620]  So basically EFF no longer believes the W3C process is suited to defending the open web.
[34:36.980 --> 34:40.240]  We have resigned from the consortium effective today.
[34:40.400 --> 34:45.620]  And, uh, they have a resignation letter that they, that they, uh, uh, published as well.
[34:45.780 --> 34:47.880]  It's pretty dramatic, uh, W3C.
[34:48.120 --> 34:52.920]  I don't know if you guys have been following this, uh, and, and to have the EFF not be a part of it anymore.
[34:52.920 --> 34:53.940]  That's something else.
[34:54.200 --> 34:54.600]  Yeah.
[34:54.960 --> 35:02.000]  I think it's huge news because the, uh, but before this DRM thing, the W3C was like a very well-respected, uh, web group.
[35:02.420 --> 35:09.240]  Um, but after this, like, uh, it seems like that they just give it into corporate interests and, uh, that it was putting DRM in.
[35:09.360 --> 35:23.800]  And like the, the, what they were asking for is basically a promise by DRM makers not to, because with DRM, like, even if it's super weak, even if you, if you try, if you, uh, publish to breaking it, um, they can go after you merely for breaking it.
[35:24.180 --> 35:33.240]  And, um, and, and so they're asking for a covenant not to sue computer researchers who they point out a flaw in it and they were, and now they can come after them.
[35:33.240 --> 35:42.080]  Um, so, um, the fact that, that the EFF realized that they would get more done outside of it than inside, it kind of speaks volumes.
[35:42.340 --> 35:59.000]  I kind of wonder, um, how this relates to the three-year ruling it was, uh, that the Library of Congress came, came to, as far as the Librarian of Congress came to the conclusion as far as allowing security researchers to audit or otherwise, um, break security systems.
[35:59.000 --> 36:03.180]  You're right, as in, in, in, insofar as the repercussions being very, very, very strong.
[36:03.380 --> 36:18.560]  And that's the, the real, the funny part of it is that even if it's weak, like really lousy, just stepping over that line then, uh, makes you liable for all this legal recourse, which is the, really the sad part because it shows the myopic, um, perspective,
[36:18.560 --> 36:24.560]  uh, of the, this WC3 in that they don't understand that DRM doesn't work, uh, functionally.
[36:24.560 --> 36:28.900]  Once it's broken, it, it, it's just really, it doesn't protect the, the artists and that...
[36:28.900 --> 36:33.720]  It's, it's less about what doesn't work and, and more about what the, uh, corporate overlords want.
[36:33.720 --> 36:46.980]  And they want this, they want this, uh, you know, control, just like, you know, uh, for, for, uh, receiving radio transmissions to make it illegal to receive radio transmissions instead of actually figuring out a way to encrypt them or make them, uh, uh,
[36:47.200 --> 36:47.560]  uh, private.
[36:47.740 --> 36:51.880]  This is their way of dealing with this particular issue of, uh, digital rights management.
[36:51.880 --> 36:53.640]  We have a lot more to say on this.
[36:53.840 --> 36:55.280]  Uh, it's a, it's a real milestone.
[36:55.440 --> 36:56.520]  It just happened this week.
[36:56.900 --> 37:03.180]  Um, but we have something else that's also another, um, urgent matter, uh, that we want to get to as well.
[37:03.360 --> 37:04.700]  Uh, and that's net neutrality.
[37:04.820 --> 37:07.420]  Now we've been talking about net neutrality for, for years now.
[37:07.640 --> 37:08.920]  It just never seems to end.
[37:09.440 --> 37:12.040]  And, um, well, fortunately it hasn't ended.
[37:12.140 --> 37:12.520]  Not yet.
[37:12.700 --> 37:17.000]  Net neutrality advocates are, uh, planning two days of protest in Washington, D.C.
[37:17.000 --> 37:23.020]  uh, later this month as they fight off plans to defang regulations meant to protect an open internet.
[37:23.500 --> 37:25.800]  I know folks, there's a lot going on here.
[37:25.920 --> 37:28.180]  There's a lot of things that we have to stand up for.
[37:28.440 --> 37:42.360]  Uh, you know, people are feeling, um, uh, sentimental about the good old days when you didn't have healthcare and when you had preexisting conditions, uh, causing all kinds of problems and you had to pay more because you're a particular, uh, uh, gender.
[37:42.980 --> 37:45.600]  And some Republicans getting all misty out about that as well.
[37:45.700 --> 37:47.640]  And about to, uh, bring those days back.
[37:47.760 --> 37:49.060]  We have to fight against that as well.
[37:49.200 --> 37:51.260]  A lot of people are doing this net neutrality.
[37:51.400 --> 37:52.160]  It's another issue.
[37:52.260 --> 37:58.680]  I just hope it's not one issue too many, because if we lose one of these things, uh, it's, it's something, it's going to be very hard to get back.
[37:58.900 --> 38:05.920]  So a coalition of activists, consumer groups, and writers are calling on supporters to attend the next meeting of the federal communications commission.
[38:05.920 --> 38:09.220]  That's next Tuesday, September 26 in Washington, D.C.
[38:09.900 --> 38:19.280]  Uh, the next day, the protest will move to Capitol Hill where people will meet legislators to express their concerns about an FCC proposal to rewrite the rules governing the internet.
[38:19.640 --> 38:28.180]  Now the FCC has received 22 million comments, 22 million comments on restoring internet freedom.
[38:28.900 --> 38:33.880]  That's the regulator's proposal to dismantle net neutrality rules put in place in 2015.
[38:33.880 --> 38:35.060]  I think that was their phrase.
[38:35.260 --> 38:52.820]  Uh, opponents argue that the rule changes proposed by the FCC's Republican chairman, Ajit Pai, uh, will pave the way for a tiered internet where internet service providers will be free to pick and choose winners online by giving higher speeds to those they favor or those willing or able to pay more.
[38:52.980 --> 38:56.920]  Now, keep in mind, we're not talking about consumers who obviously pay more to get more.
[38:57.260 --> 39:16.360]  Uh, we're talking about, uh, providers of content, uh, and, uh, what this could mean and very likely will mean is that those with deep pockets will be able to, uh, to express themselves a lot easier, a lot more freely than those, uh, that might be a bit controversial like us or,
[39:16.360 --> 39:19.160]  uh, not have as access to as many funds.
[39:19.380 --> 39:23.300]  Uh, it's a very dangerous, um, um, step to be taking.
[39:23.460 --> 39:26.240]  Uh, the regulator has yet to process the comments.
[39:26.400 --> 39:27.280]  That's, that's, that's right.
[39:27.400 --> 39:32.040]  There are 22 million comments that have yet to even be heard or read.
[39:32.520 --> 39:36.760]  Uh, they're reviewing the proposals before a vote expected later this year.
[39:36.900 --> 39:45.980]  Now, the activist groups are encouraging internet users to meet their lawmakers and tell them how a free and open internet is vital to their lives and their livelihoods.
[39:46.060 --> 39:51.940]  It's important that, that you understand this and be able to explain it to them in terms that maybe they can understand as well.
[39:52.100 --> 39:57.940]  You don't have to go to Washington DC, but, uh, we, we ask that you do get involved in, in one way or another.
[39:58.520 --> 40:04.400]  Uh, now, uh, Pai is a long-term opponent of the current rules, which were brought in under the Obama administration.
[40:05.060 --> 40:11.560]  Uh, his proposals have sparked a firestorm of protest that led to the FCC's comment system crashing under the weight of comments.
[40:11.760 --> 40:25.140]  Uh, the FCC seems dead set on killing net neutrality, but they have to answer the Congress and Congress has to answer to us, their constituents, said Evan Greer, campaign director for Fight for the Future, one of the protest organizers.
[40:25.560 --> 40:30.580]  And that, uh, that protest organizer is joining us right here live on the air now.
[40:30.700 --> 40:31.180]  Evan, welcome.
[40:32.180 --> 40:33.720]  Hey, thanks for having me on the show.
[40:34.040 --> 40:38.620]  Uh, so, uh, tell us, um, is this a last-ditch attempt?
[40:38.620 --> 40:40.900]  It seems like we're fighting for this so many times.
[40:41.240 --> 40:43.860]  Is this really the, the, the final battle?
[40:45.280 --> 40:53.980]  You know, I think the reality is people are understanding the internet gives us this new kind of power and gives more people a voice than ever before.
[40:54.220 --> 41:02.660]  And I think the reality is that, you know, powerful institutions, whether they're governments or corporations are always going to be trying to take that power away.
[41:02.860 --> 41:12.320]  Um, but I think more and more, you know, we're building a widespread movement, not just for net neutrality, but for internet freedom as a value more broadly.
[41:12.540 --> 41:13.760]  I think it's interesting.
[41:13.880 --> 41:19.700]  You were talking about the healthcare fight, which is obviously taking up a lot of, uh, people's bandwidth and attention right now.
[41:19.800 --> 41:31.300]  Um, but it's really important, you know, for me as someone that cares about a wide range of issues to always think about how, uh, the internet as a platform is so essential for every single other thing that I care about.
[41:31.420 --> 41:41.620]  Um, and our ability to, uh, make change in the world and hold powerful institutions and politicians accountable, uh, is greatly, uh, increased by the internet.
[41:41.840 --> 41:52.860]  So I don't think this is the end game fight for net neutrality, uh, specifically, but it's also really, uh, I think we're in the middle of building a movement, um, to, uh, win on these issues long-term.
[41:53.100 --> 42:03.480]  Well, this, this might be a really good example then, uh, because, um, you're talking about how the internet is basically, uh, the defining aspect to, uh, to getting the information that we need.
[42:03.820 --> 42:05.880]  Uh, so let's look at the healthcare fight.
[42:06.120 --> 42:15.780]  If, um, if net neutrality were not around and, uh, it was a worst case scenario, how could, uh, uh, the fight over healthcare be framed on the internet?
[42:16.940 --> 42:17.500]  Sure.
[42:17.660 --> 42:21.220]  So net neutrality is essentially the first amendment of the web.
[42:21.380 --> 42:29.500]  It's what gives all of us the ability to express ourselves online and requires the companies that connect us to the web.
[42:29.620 --> 42:45.100]  Uh, so the Comcast, Verizons, and AT&Ts of the world to make sure that everyone's voice, uh, is able to reach, uh, other people and that they can't prioritize one voice over another, uh, based on who pays them more money based on content that they like,
[42:45.180 --> 42:49.900]  or that they don't like, uh, things that they might want to get rid of because it criticizes them or that it's controversial.
[42:50.160 --> 43:04.300]  So if we apply this to the healthcare fight now, uh, imagine a world where, um, you know, Breitbart has cut a deal with, uh, AT&T, uh, which is your provider and you can visit their site, uh, you know, at blazing fast speeds.
[43:04.520 --> 43:19.900]  Um, and you know, you can't get on WBAI.org to listen to this streaming show, um, because they haven't paid fees to Comcast, Verizon, and AT&T in order to have their, uh, uh, you know, service delivered at a rate that you would want to listen to it at.
[43:20.080 --> 43:26.260]  Um, so that's sort of one example, that's an extreme example, um, but gives you a sense of what's at stake here.
[43:26.540 --> 43:35.740]  If we allow internet service providers that connect us to the internet to dictate and control what we can see and do in here once we get online.
[43:36.080 --> 43:43.600]  So this is, um, uh, basically a step beyond, uh, a consumer being told you have to pay more to get faster, uh, bandwidth.
[43:43.860 --> 43:53.840]  This is saying to the person or to the organization, providing the information, your information isn't going to go anywhere unless you pay a premium or maybe never at all if we don't like you.
[43:55.040 --> 44:05.640]  It's essentially, you know, the basic rules that prevent these internet service providers from engaging in blocking and censorship as well as charging those extra fees.
[44:05.820 --> 44:06.720]  So you're right.
[44:06.740 --> 44:10.960]  It's not immediately, uh, about just consumers paying more.
[44:11.100 --> 44:22.900]  It's actually also about the entire fabric of the web, the entire ecosystem that makes up, uh, this internet that's so diverse where there's so much exchange of ideas and opinions, uh, and, and viewpoints and information.
[44:23.160 --> 44:38.020]  Um, but it's also what, uh, actually directly prevents, um, that type of throttling or censorship that could come from those internet service providers, many of which have special interests that, you know, give them an incentive to censor, um, or to block or to throttle.
[44:38.200 --> 44:52.260]  For example, Comcast, which owns MSNBC, uh, and, uh, other content providers, uh, you know, they have a profit interest in, uh, prioritizing their own content over the content of, uh, that other corporations create.
[44:52.440 --> 44:56.820]  Um, so that's a real problem, not just for consumers, but for expression in general online.
[44:58.040 --> 44:58.520]  Yeah.
[44:58.760 --> 45:12.900]  And the, I just wanted to add that it impacts the, um, ability of, of, uh, uh, it creates an entire, uh, market for these, uh, service providers and there's no sign of it having a limit.
[45:13.140 --> 45:18.000]  Like it will, if it's a wireless company, they're private and, uh, not regulated in any way.
[45:18.140 --> 45:23.400]  So this market that we'd be handing the providers is, uh, uh, never ending.
[45:23.620 --> 45:25.200]  When, when, when would the prices change?
[45:25.380 --> 45:27.800]  We would, we would see arbitrary price increases.
[45:27.980 --> 45:37.720]  You'd have all sorts of different clustering of, of services and providers, people, um, uh, throwing different rates and different scales at different, different providers.
[45:37.880 --> 45:43.500]  And, and as you said, it also breaks, fundamentally breaks multiplexing.
[45:43.620 --> 45:46.920]  And that is how these networks, uh, send information.
[45:46.940 --> 45:55.980]  Uh, it used to be, or that, that structure is based on information going the most efficient way and over the most efficient path to its destination.
[45:56.200 --> 46:09.000]  This breaks that fundamentally, fundamentally breaks it and turns it into a market that can then, uh, be, uh, prices and, and, uh, and arbitrary costs set wholly, uh, by the providers themselves.
[46:10.280 --> 46:10.720]  Right.
[46:10.920 --> 46:20.340]  And what makes this so egregious and, and, and, and, you know, makes that so dangerous is just the fact that there simply isn't competition in the broadband market in the U S.
[46:20.900 --> 46:26.800]  Um, you know, most of these companies are essentially local monopolies, um, or basically active monopolies.
[46:26.920 --> 46:33.300]  And that's why they have such high prices for such crappy service for most people in the U S, um, already.
[46:33.640 --> 46:39.300]  So, you know, this is going to make the situation worse for people who are already paying too much for not enough internet.
[46:41.140 --> 46:46.760]  So, um, can you describe the, um, uh, the tactics that are at, at, at play here?
[46:46.760 --> 46:49.840]  We're having this, uh, this day of protest next Tuesday.
[46:50.240 --> 46:54.280]  Uh, why, why that particular day and, and how many people can get into this meeting?
[46:55.500 --> 46:55.920]  Sure.
[46:56.060 --> 47:00.860]  So just to clarify, you know, I think some of the press has been writing about this as a protest.
[47:00.880 --> 47:04.520]  It's actually something different and, and in my opinion, a bit more interesting.
[47:04.760 --> 47:09.040]  Uh, you know, the, we've, we've had a bunch of really great protests on this issue and that's really important.
[47:09.320 --> 47:12.980]  Um, but the focus now is actually really shifting to Congress.
[47:13.280 --> 47:21.100]  So just to give people a sense of sort of where we're at this FCC commissioner, uh, who Trump appointed is a former Verizon lawyer.
[47:21.240 --> 47:28.900]  He's rushing as fast as he can to get rid of these rules at the FCC, uh, that, uh, make net neutrality legally enforceable.
[47:29.200 --> 47:32.000]  Um, so he's very likely to go ahead and do that.
[47:32.120 --> 47:35.840]  He's been, you know, every sign that he's given is that he doesn't care what the public thinks.
[47:35.900 --> 47:40.880]  He doesn't care what experts think he wants to give these big cable companies, everything that they, that they want.
[47:41.260 --> 47:43.740]  That said, he has to answer to Congress.
[47:43.920 --> 47:47.140]  Uh, and Congress are supposed to answer to us, their constituents.
[47:47.500 --> 47:54.000]  One of the most valuable ways that people can actually influence their member of Congress's position is by meeting with them directly.
[47:54.400 --> 47:58.160]  Um, but obviously that's something that's pretty difficult for a lot of people to do.
[47:58.520 --> 48:16.780]  Um, so we're organizing with a bunch of other groups, uh, electronic frontier foundation, public knowledge center for media justice, uh, uh, a day where internet users from across the country are descending on Washington, DC, uh, attending a training where they can meet up with other net neutrality supporters and brush up on,
[48:16.880 --> 48:31.040]  uh, the latest on the issue and make sure that they're ready to go into these meetings, uh, and then go meet directly with lawmakers, uh, with their lawmakers, um, from their home districts, um, to talk to them about this issue and talk to them about how net neutrality affects their lives.
[48:31.200 --> 48:36.860]  And it's been fascinating for me, you know, I getting on the phone and talking with these people and it's such a wide range of folks.
[48:37.020 --> 48:43.980]  It's, uh, conservative that folks on the left, uh, it's a lot of people who are directly involved in technology, whose jobs depend on the internet.
[48:44.120 --> 48:55.680]  Uh, a lot of people who run small businesses and, you know, uh, what's at stake for them being able to continue their small business, uh, if they have to pay fees to Comcast and Verizon to keep their web store online, for example.
[48:56.260 --> 49:05.960]  Um, so it's really fascinating to me to see people coming out of the woodwork, getting an email from an organization like ours and being willing to pick up and fly across the country, uh, to meet with their lawmaker.
[49:06.160 --> 49:09.340]  Um, but you know, the internet is giving us the power to reach these people.
[49:09.480 --> 49:13.400]  I think people see how that power affects their lives and they don't want it to be taken away.
[49:13.660 --> 49:19.740]  So it's, um, it's, it's conceivable that people could find themselves agreeing with Trump supporters on this.
[49:20.960 --> 49:25.500]  You know, it is amazing to me because this is not a partisan issue at all.
[49:25.560 --> 49:35.080]  And unfortunately, the cable companies have recognized that with Congress, the way it is right now, one of the best ways that they can gain ground on it by trying to turn it into a partisan issue.
[49:35.280 --> 49:46.160]  Um, but the reality is, you know, everyone can agree, uh, that they don't want their cable company, the company that they pay to connect them to the internet to dictate and decide what they can see and do when they get there.
[49:46.340 --> 49:50.900]  That's a basic, you know, premise that I think everyone that uses the internet can agree on.
[49:50.980 --> 49:54.160]  Uh, so this is an issue that does cut across those lines.
[49:54.160 --> 49:55.660]  Um, and I think that's important.
[49:55.880 --> 50:07.880]  It's a moment, um, that we can hold powerful institutions accountable, um, and, uh, defend this transformative technology, um, that has had a profoundly democratizing effect on our society and our economy.
[50:08.400 --> 50:08.820]  Yeah.
[50:09.100 --> 50:23.780]  On the note of it not being a partisan issue, I think it's important to point out that the telecom lobbyists have, are funding both parties and groups like demand progress and fight for the future had to fight tooth and nail to get the democrat, uh, uh,
[50:23.900 --> 50:28.720]  administration to get the, uh, to pass the, the net neutrality regulation.
[50:29.220 --> 50:35.760]  Like Tim Wheeler, the Obama's head of, um, of the FCC was like literally a telecom lobbyist.
[50:35.920 --> 50:38.100]  So I think it's important to point that out.
[50:38.180 --> 50:42.220]  But it shows the power of the people and being able to get them to take that position.
[50:42.220 --> 50:45.480]  So, uh, hopefully that can happen again under this administration.
[50:46.780 --> 50:47.720]  Um, yeah.
[50:47.880 --> 50:50.220]  And there's definitely lots of ways for people to get involved.
[50:50.380 --> 50:55.080]  You know, uh, some of your listeners are probably thinking, well, I can't, you know, pick up and go to DC next week.
[50:55.100 --> 50:59.420]  Um, but there's meetings happening across the country with lawmakers in districts.
[50:59.540 --> 51:07.340]  Um, there's, you can go online to battleforthenet.com and submit, uh, an email to your members of Congress really easily with just a couple of clicks.
[51:07.540 --> 51:11.660]  Um, so there are a lot of ways that people can get involved and get on board, uh, with this fight.
[51:11.700 --> 51:13.600]  And it is something that affects all of us.
[51:13.720 --> 51:16.580]  So it's definitely a moment, uh, to get involved now.
[51:16.720 --> 51:18.040]  And it's not a done deal.
[51:18.180 --> 51:23.380]  You know, we've, uh, as you said, um, we had to fight tooth and nail to get these protections into place.
[51:23.560 --> 51:28.540]  Um, and everyone in DC said that it was impossible that we'd never get them.
[51:28.820 --> 51:30.560]  Um, but you know, we did everything.
[51:30.760 --> 51:38.400]  We had protests, uh, people actually blocked that former FCC commissioner, Tom Wheeler's driveway, uh, in a civil disobedience action.
[51:38.880 --> 51:46.560]  Um, people, you know, showed up at the FCC, showed up at Congress, millions of people commented, and we got these unprecedented protections that we have now.
[51:46.760 --> 51:50.800]  Now we need to harness the power of the internet and keep that fight going, uh, to defend them.
[51:50.960 --> 51:56.800]  Well, you know, I, I've, in the past, I've taken a dim view of, of confronting people at their, at their residences.
[51:56.960 --> 52:02.440]  But when they ignore what, uh, you, the people are saying, you have to get their attention somehow.
[52:02.640 --> 52:05.960]  And it seems from that, from that action that got their attention.
[52:07.520 --> 52:07.880]  Yeah.
[52:07.960 --> 52:12.160]  You know, I think it takes all kinds of, um, you know, ways of raising awareness.
[52:12.380 --> 52:23.880]  Um, but you know, I think again, what's amazing to me to see is the way that the internet, um, has really changed that and, and changed our ability to make these types of things happen, you know, fight for the future is an incredibly small organization.
[52:24.220 --> 52:34.820]  Um, you know, but be through the internet, um, you know, we've been able to pull off these, uh, you know, Incredible moments when the web comes together and millions of people take action on a single day.
[52:35.660 --> 52:44.100]  And I think, you know, people, again, see how that changes the fabric of our democracy, how it gives ordinary people more power than they've ever had.
[52:44.440 --> 52:46.060]  And that's really what's at stake here.
[52:46.140 --> 52:49.480]  This isn't just about, you know, how quick can we load our cat videos?
[52:50.140 --> 52:59.960]  It has everything to do with the future of freedom of expression, the future of our democracy, the future of our ability to hold powerful institutions accountable and make the world a better place.
[53:00.260 --> 53:13.180]  One of my biggest fears is that right-wing Dems and censored Republicans will make a, quote-unquote, compromise bill that will have, like, some form of very weak net neutrality with lots of loopholes.
[53:14.360 --> 53:24.800]  And that could be even worse than having the net neutrality repeal outright because then, in the future, the future image change will say, like, oh, well, we already have this net neutrality.
[53:25.020 --> 53:30.960]  Like, is there... I've seen bills that have had loopholes like this proposed by Democrats and Republicans recently.
[53:31.940 --> 53:34.180]  What do you think the likelihood of this happening is?
[53:35.020 --> 53:38.720]  So that's absolutely one of the top threats right now.
[53:39.000 --> 53:44.500]  So, as I said, you know, the FCC is moving quickly toward getting rid of the rules that we have now.
[53:45.320 --> 53:54.980]  And if they succeed in doing that, or even the closer they get toward possibly doing that, the more you're going to hear members of Congress on the Hill talking about, well, we need legislation.
[53:55.080 --> 53:58.800]  And that's the entire strategy of the telecoms right now.
[53:58.940 --> 54:03.480]  They're just beating the drums saying, oh, you know, everyone hates this net neutrality debate.
[54:03.640 --> 54:04.980]  Let's just end it with legislation.
[54:05.200 --> 54:08.360]  What they're really saying is exactly what you just said.
[54:08.360 --> 54:13.160]  Let's pass a fake net neutrality bill that permanently undermines the rules.
[54:13.720 --> 54:17.680]  And, you know, but that we can call, you know, quote, unquote, net neutrality.
[54:17.880 --> 54:20.140]  So everyone should be extremely wary of that.
[54:20.340 --> 54:22.760]  The reality is the rules we have are working.
[54:22.920 --> 54:26.060]  They were democratically put in place.
[54:26.660 --> 54:28.860]  Millions of people commented on the proceeding.
[54:29.300 --> 54:31.120]  And they're incredibly popular.
[54:31.540 --> 54:35.260]  Polling shows people from across the political spectrum overwhelmingly support them.
[54:35.260 --> 54:39.060]  There's absolutely no reason that this FCC should be rushing to get rid of them.
[54:39.260 --> 54:44.240]  And there's no reason that Congress should legislate on this issue when there are perfectly good rules in place.
[54:44.240 --> 54:52.060]  And Congress should be reining in the FCC and telling them to stop moving so quickly to get rid of these rules that the public want and the public need.
[54:52.860 --> 54:54.900]  That's definitely a great point.
[54:55.080 --> 55:01.220]  And people should, as they're talking to their members of Congress or speaking out about this, note that that's exactly what we need.
[55:01.220 --> 55:02.880]  We need to keep these rules at the FCC.
[55:03.220 --> 55:06.640]  And Congress shouldn't pass legislation that weakens them in any way.
[55:07.020 --> 55:10.160]  And the loss of these rules would be permanent to these rules that are working.
[55:10.300 --> 55:11.540]  I mean, it can get exhausting.
[55:11.720 --> 55:14.320]  We've seen this happen so many times in recent history.
[55:14.540 --> 55:15.580]  We've fought off SOPA.
[55:15.680 --> 55:16.320]  We fought off PIPA.
[55:16.400 --> 55:17.140]  We fought off...
[55:17.140 --> 55:23.000]  You know, it seems like every year or two there's another attempt to feed us the same thing that we've said no to so many times.
[55:23.000 --> 55:25.180]  And it can just get exhausting from the activist's end.
[55:25.180 --> 55:28.620]  But it would be so easy to just lose this and then not get it back.
[55:30.120 --> 55:31.100]  That's exactly right.
[55:31.260 --> 55:50.900]  If they pass legislation that has a weak definition of paid prioritization, for example, or, you know, in some other way, comes in, lowers the bar from where the current FCC rules are, the only way to undo that would be to pass new legislation that changes that or repeal that legislation,
[55:51.140 --> 55:54.960]  which is extremely difficult slash almost impossible.
[55:55.220 --> 56:00.040]  And with the way things are going in Congress right now, you know, that's not something we can expect anytime soon.
[56:00.040 --> 56:06.100]  So getting bad legislation passed in Congress is actually... is absolutely the disaster scenario here.
[56:06.300 --> 56:20.420]  And that's why it's so important that everyone is putting pressure on their members of Congress right now to not only oppose the FCC's plan to get the rules, but to oppose any, quote unquote, compromise legislation that comes up in the coming weeks and months.
[56:20.420 --> 56:33.980]  We've been speaking with Evan Greer, campaign director for Fight for the Future, about the fight for net neutrality, culminating in a meeting next Tuesday and obviously going well beyond that as an addition.
[56:34.600 --> 56:38.940]  Evan, one final question for those people that presumably can't make it to DC.
[56:39.200 --> 56:43.100]  What can they do next Tuesday or next week or just in the future in general?
[56:44.300 --> 56:44.820]  Sure.
[56:44.960 --> 56:47.940]  So, folks, as I said, go to battleforthenet.com.
[56:47.940 --> 56:51.100]  You can actually go to battleforthenet.com slash DC.
[56:51.640 --> 56:56.360]  Then if you can go to DC, that's where you can sign up to participate in these meetings with lawmakers next week.
[56:56.480 --> 56:59.580]  And if you can't, there's a button there for you that says get involved locally.
[56:59.780 --> 57:26.700]  That's going to connect you with a nationwide campaign that we have going called Team Internet, where folks are self-organizing using text messaging and a Slack channel and email to organize meetings in districts with lawmakers and to use kind of our power through the Internet and through texting to reach people across the country in key places where we're not getting enough people out to their
[57:26.700 --> 57:27.660]  lawmakers, for example.
[57:27.940 --> 57:30.260]  So there's lots of ways that folks can get on board there.
[57:30.260 --> 57:32.940]  You can volunteer your time to send text messages.
[57:33.160 --> 57:37.820]  You can volunteer your time to help organize meetings and participate in a variety of different ways.
[57:38.020 --> 57:39.780]  So there's lots of ways for people to get involved.
[57:40.160 --> 57:48.580]  Definitely, you know, follow us on Twitter at FightForTheFTR, future abbreviated, you know, and find the organizations that are out there working on this.
[57:48.760 --> 57:53.980]  You know, I think it's come up a few times in this conversation that these fights seem to come up again and again.
[57:53.980 --> 57:57.980]  And that's because the Internet's so powerful and because it's worth defending.
[57:58.240 --> 58:10.020]  So like any other basic right or basic, you know, thing in our world that we have, that we have to fight for consistently to protect, like health care we were talking about before, the Internet is like that as well.
[58:10.100 --> 58:14.020]  We have to keep vigilant and keep fighting for it for the long haul.
[58:14.300 --> 58:19.320]  And organizations like FightForTheFuture plan to keep that going in the years to come.
[58:19.640 --> 58:21.520]  Thanks, Evan, so much for what you're doing.
[58:21.520 --> 58:25.480]  We're going to update folks next week and the weeks after.
[58:25.740 --> 58:26.600]  And best of luck with this.
[58:26.700 --> 58:28.780]  And, of course, we'll be joining you in these fights ahead.
[58:29.280 --> 58:29.880]  Have a good night.
[58:30.080 --> 58:30.220]  Cool.
[58:30.420 --> 58:30.640]  Thanks.
[58:30.800 --> 58:31.660]  Thanks for having me on, guys.
[58:32.560 --> 58:34.580]  And that's going to do it for Off the Hook this week.
[58:34.820 --> 58:37.560]  You can write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[58:37.980 --> 58:40.300]  We'll see you at the Maker Faire this weekend in Queens.
[58:40.860 --> 58:42.280]  And we'll see you next week on the radio.
[58:42.400 --> 58:42.580]  Good night.
[58:57.820 --> 59:03.380]  Bye-bye.