[00:00.000 --> 00:05.040]  My name is Bill Samuels, founder of nypeoplesconvention.org.
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[00:33.440 --> 00:37.280]  And you are listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:37.380 --> 00:38.320]  The time is 8 o'clock.
[00:38.440 --> 00:40.400]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[02:24.920 --> 02:26.300]  And here we are again.
[02:26.480 --> 02:29.820]  Another action-packed edition of Off the Hook here on WBAI.
[02:29.920 --> 02:31.900]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you this evening.
[02:32.080 --> 02:33.860]  Joined tonight by Rob T.
[02:34.000 --> 02:34.520]  Firefly.
[02:34.840 --> 02:35.500]  Good evening.
[02:35.900 --> 02:36.600]  And Kyle.
[02:36.960 --> 02:37.620]  Yeah, I'm here.
[02:37.760 --> 02:38.140]  How's it going?
[02:38.700 --> 02:40.300]  It's going good, but that's it.
[02:40.440 --> 02:42.580]  Okay, just three people in the studio?
[02:42.800 --> 02:43.180]  No, it's good.
[02:43.200 --> 02:44.640]  We have more space to move around.
[02:44.780 --> 02:45.700]  A light crew tonight.
[02:45.740 --> 02:47.120]  I'm going to be doing a lot of flailing today.
[02:47.120 --> 02:49.800]  I'm going to be gesticulating, so I don't want to hit anybody.
[02:49.820 --> 02:50.840]  There's a lot to flail about.
[02:51.080 --> 02:53.760]  Yeah, there is a lot to flail about, but there's also a lot to celebrate, all right?
[02:53.820 --> 03:00.760]  And I want to start on a celebratory note by saying that, boy, did we have a great time at Maker Faire over the weekend.
[03:00.800 --> 03:01.700]  Wasn't that amazing?
[03:01.980 --> 03:02.600]  Something else.
[03:02.700 --> 03:03.300]  That was something.
[03:03.400 --> 03:07.740]  I want to just thank all the listeners who showed up at the Hall of Science in Queens.
[03:08.140 --> 03:11.520]  And met us, played around in the phone booth.
[03:11.900 --> 03:13.340]  Wow, whoever would have thought.
[03:13.440 --> 03:14.260]  Well, of course, we thought it.
[03:14.340 --> 03:25.420]  But I think a lot of people might have been surprised by how kids took to the old-fashioned 1950s pay phone that we brought, the phone booth, the entire phone booth that we brought with us and set up.
[03:25.700 --> 03:31.360]  And, Kyle, you had it set up so that kids could talk to other kids on a candlestick phone.
[03:31.360 --> 03:41.540]  And for those of you who don't know, a candlestick phone, picture a 1920s movie where you're holding the earpiece in one hand and talking into the mouthpiece with the other hand.
[03:41.580 --> 03:42.460]  That kind of a phone.
[03:42.560 --> 03:43.700]  We actually have one of those as well.
[03:43.840 --> 03:49.460]  We hooked the two of them together so kids were talking on one into a pay phone booth on the other side.
[03:49.460 --> 04:02.160]  Yeah, jumping across eras, making these very, very, I guess what you would call otherwise antique devices work in the modern day.
[04:02.360 --> 04:05.020]  And that was part of our exhibit at Maker Faire.
[04:05.100 --> 04:07.820]  And we had a lot of fun with that.
[04:08.040 --> 04:10.720]  We introduced people to the phone, some people at varying levels.
[04:10.720 --> 04:15.320]  Some people had a familiarity and everywhere in between.
[04:15.560 --> 04:26.880]  But that was part of the fun is just sharing about the technology and talking about how it's impacted the current state of technology.
[04:27.280 --> 04:36.500]  And telling stories, basically, about people's experiences with it and tricks and ways it affects people's lives.
[04:36.500 --> 04:41.300]  And, gosh, yeah, it was great weather and everybody's so smart there.
[04:41.420 --> 04:42.500]  I don't know what it is.
[04:42.620 --> 04:46.680]  But you get a bunch of hackers together, whether it's at Hope.
[04:47.740 --> 04:49.800]  The smarts just wear off on you.
[04:49.860 --> 04:50.580]  It's unbelievable.
[04:50.580 --> 04:51.780]  It really is.
[04:51.900 --> 04:57.140]  There's just such bright students out there and hobbyists alike.
[04:57.140 --> 04:59.080]  And I really...
[04:59.080 --> 05:02.740]  It was my dream to get this closed-circuit telephone going.
[05:02.960 --> 05:05.080]  And we even broadcast a little bit.
[05:05.080 --> 05:06.900]  We have these big megaphones that we always bring.
[05:07.160 --> 05:09.000]  Megaphones left over from the Fifth Hope.
[05:09.260 --> 05:09.440]  Yeah.
[05:09.560 --> 05:15.520]  If you went to the Fifth Hope, one of our conferences, you might recall that we had megaphones as a theme for one of them.
[05:15.700 --> 05:15.860]  Yeah.
[05:15.920 --> 05:16.700]  And I had the idea.
[05:16.700 --> 05:24.560]  Let's just get it all sort of tied together, reuse stuff that we've got, and make this a really, really fun experience for everybody.
[05:24.560 --> 05:26.980]  So we were making our own phone noises.
[05:27.040 --> 05:29.900]  And there was touch tones being blared.
[05:30.200 --> 05:33.260]  I had a kid ask me, can I dial 911?
[05:33.820 --> 05:34.480]  Oh, my God.
[05:34.480 --> 05:38.860]  I had to, like, explain to their parent, like, well, this doesn't work.
[05:38.860 --> 05:40.880]  So they had to, like, kind of explain it to them.
[05:41.000 --> 05:42.140]  Did he need to dial 911?
[05:42.340 --> 05:42.860]  Was he in trouble?
[05:43.080 --> 05:43.100]  No, no.
[05:43.100 --> 05:45.060]  He just wanted to dial 911.
[05:45.660 --> 05:47.640]  Why is that the thing he wanted to dial?
[05:47.720 --> 05:48.460]  I don't know.
[05:48.660 --> 05:50.360]  They dialed phone numbers.
[05:50.360 --> 05:52.880]  I guess 411, they'd finished with that.
[05:52.900 --> 05:55.760]  And so then a kid asked me, you know, point blank.
[05:55.760 --> 05:57.060]  And I said, well...
[05:57.060 --> 06:00.720]  And their parent kind of guided them and said, only this one time.
[06:01.360 --> 06:04.180]  Well, there's no dial tone, so, you know, you wouldn't have gotten anywhere.
[06:04.560 --> 06:05.000]  Exactly.
[06:05.180 --> 06:05.440]  Exactly.
[06:05.760 --> 06:09.000]  But I said, otherwise, you know, you wouldn't normally do that.
[06:09.140 --> 06:09.620]  And their parent...
[06:09.620 --> 06:10.380]  Hopefully not.
[06:10.860 --> 06:11.980]  Now, Rob, you were there, too.
[06:12.060 --> 06:12.460]  What'd you think?
[06:12.580 --> 06:12.980]  I was.
[06:13.100 --> 06:14.620]  And I had a really great time.
[06:14.760 --> 06:21.940]  It was great, you know, hosting at the booth with you guys and playing with the phones myself and in between the visitors playing with them.
[06:22.300 --> 06:25.080]  And also just the fair itself was...
[06:25.080 --> 06:27.080]  I mean, it keeps getting better every year.
[06:27.240 --> 06:38.180]  I'm just amazed at what they managed to do and how they managed to fit even more into the same space every time and just all the other cool people who show up with their projects and things they're showing off.
[06:38.180 --> 06:40.140]  It is the most positive environment.
[06:40.140 --> 06:49.240]  I don't want to be too gushy about this, but you have kids running around, being themselves, building, learning, sharing.
[06:51.440 --> 07:05.840]  And, you know, we were talking about this, Kyle, how when we were growing up, you weren't encouraged to be quite as free and open and not beholden to any particular interest, whether it be corporate or parental or whatever.
[07:05.840 --> 07:11.380]  Or kids who don't know other kids just basically running around.
[07:11.620 --> 07:12.880]  And it's not madness.
[07:12.880 --> 07:17.240]  It's actually organized, whether it's racing cars or watching a fire-breathing dragon.
[07:17.520 --> 07:20.840]  We were concerned about the fire-breathing dragon, but there it was.
[07:20.840 --> 07:22.680]  And everybody was really into it.
[07:22.780 --> 07:26.440]  And it was a fun event for everybody.
[07:26.440 --> 07:34.020]  Certainly, there's things that kids and parents alike can enjoy together, but I think there's definitely some strategy involved.
[07:34.020 --> 07:37.120]  I saw a lot of parents being towed around.
[07:37.300 --> 07:38.820]  Yes, the pulling, the kid pulling.
[07:39.060 --> 07:40.660]  That's something we've seen in previous years.
[07:40.800 --> 07:55.300]  What that is, you have an adult and you see the adult is being towed by a small child who is pulling them into some exhibit or some game or something that they want them to take them to or to be a part of.
[07:55.460 --> 07:56.240]  They don't want to miss it.
[07:56.960 --> 07:59.660]  They know where it is and they've done their homework.
[07:59.660 --> 08:00.740]  They've researched it.
[08:01.360 --> 08:02.940]  And there's a lot of interacting.
[08:03.380 --> 08:11.500]  I think that different projects and different areas of interest, such as ours, they tend to connect people in odd ways.
[08:11.680 --> 08:15.160]  People speak the language of telephone or they understand.
[08:15.160 --> 08:29.720]  And a lot of young people, students and so on, were getting together, playing, and exploring all the fun things that were going on there, and interacting with one another, which I think is, like you said, really, really positive and really healthy.
[08:29.940 --> 08:30.480]  It is.
[08:30.720 --> 08:34.700]  Everyone there with the organization, thanks to them, they are always so good to us.
[08:34.740 --> 08:35.180]  They really are.
[08:35.240 --> 08:36.380]  They get the hacker world.
[08:36.480 --> 08:40.160]  And I guess I sound kind of surprised by that because I'm not used to that.
[08:40.260 --> 08:48.760]  I'm not used to people who aren't, as part of our very small community, who get the overall feeling of it.
[08:49.220 --> 08:53.080]  And that is, you know, that is such a valuable thing, such a healthy thing.
[08:53.200 --> 08:58.500]  And I, you know, we were talking about how these kids are going to grow up, and these kids are going to be running things.
[08:58.740 --> 09:01.420]  So they'll be running the space program.
[09:01.600 --> 09:05.700]  They'll be, you know, running the country, running all kinds of things.
[09:06.180 --> 09:12.200]  And we are in good shape because of this kind of environment that is being set up for them.
[09:12.200 --> 09:18.220]  So if you missed it, there'll be another one next, probably next September, I guess, in Queens.
[09:18.420 --> 09:20.560]  And of course, there's Maker Faires all over the world.
[09:20.700 --> 09:22.480]  Just go to MakerFaire.com.
[09:22.540 --> 09:24.440]  That's F-A-I-R-E.com.
[09:25.360 --> 09:27.000]  And you can find a mini one.
[09:27.000 --> 09:28.720]  You can find a big one somewhere.
[09:28.980 --> 09:30.200]  There's a myriad of ways to get involved.
[09:30.360 --> 09:32.320]  I think they all have the same basic attitude.
[09:32.580 --> 09:34.020]  I think they all...
[09:34.020 --> 09:34.980]  Let us know.
[09:35.220 --> 09:35.600]  Write to us.
[09:35.700 --> 09:38.560]  O-T-H at 2600.com if you have other experiences.
[09:38.960 --> 09:42.040]  And the old school hacker spirit is still very much alive and well at these things.
[09:42.200 --> 09:47.380]  I had the great pleasure of meeting someone called Becky Button, who is a high school student.
[09:47.580 --> 09:57.400]  And she had this project, which is a pair of sandals, 3D-printed sandals, open source, that contain a microcontroller in them, which performs a certain type of Wi-Fi exploit.
[09:57.820 --> 10:02.120]  So she's got Wi-Fi D-Auth sandals that she's walking around in.
[10:02.200 --> 10:02.820]  I love that.
[10:03.000 --> 10:04.040]  And demonstrating it.
[10:04.120 --> 10:07.060]  And this project went viral over the past week or so.
[10:07.160 --> 10:10.720]  And she's been getting a lot of press and stuff about it.
[10:10.720 --> 10:13.500]  And she's just got a great attitude about it and is a brilliant person.
[10:13.540 --> 10:14.440]  I can't wait to see what else...
[10:14.440 --> 10:18.720]  And who is that little girl we met that was super into...
[10:18.720 --> 10:21.780]  I don't know her name, but how would you describe her, Kyle?
[10:21.960 --> 10:25.500]  Well, one of many young people that introduced themselves to us...
[10:25.500 --> 10:26.040]  She was at Hope, too.
[10:26.120 --> 10:26.940]  ...and wanted to meet us.
[10:26.980 --> 10:27.680]  Yeah, exactly.
[10:27.800 --> 10:33.360]  And I think it was the second time we met this particular very, very young hacker.
[10:33.360 --> 10:48.520]  And she's so thrilled and been basically on a tour of different events during her summer break, which is probably going to be something she talks about for quite some time until next spring.
[10:48.640 --> 10:50.480]  But just really tied into the whole hacker community.
[10:50.700 --> 10:51.600]  And what is she, eight?
[10:51.980 --> 10:52.460]  Yeah, yeah.
[10:53.000 --> 10:53.480]  Right around that age.
[10:53.480 --> 10:55.300]  I don't want to insult her if she's 12, but...
[10:55.300 --> 10:56.900]  No, no, it's true.
[10:56.940 --> 11:12.940]  It's so amazing to be able to inspire and share with a person like that who's really thrilled to see us and to be involved in science and hacking events.
[11:13.000 --> 11:16.920]  And the inclusiveness is something also that I am just very thrilled with.
[11:17.100 --> 11:20.380]  We had blind people coming up, playing with the phone.
[11:20.500 --> 11:22.120]  We had hearing impaired people.
[11:22.960 --> 11:33.040]  And it was just really good to be able to communicate, share, and have that same level of enthusiasm exhibited, regardless of your strengths, weaknesses, what have you.
[11:33.880 --> 11:35.720]  That is what the hacker world is all about.
[11:35.840 --> 11:37.520]  That's what technology should be all about.
[11:37.520 --> 11:39.100]  And we need to embrace that.
[11:39.760 --> 11:43.280]  This girl that we saw again, she had a great t-shirt.
[11:43.420 --> 11:44.680]  It said, no time for Barbie.
[11:45.320 --> 11:46.580]  There's hacking to be done.
[11:46.760 --> 11:47.560]  A lot of good t-shirts.
[11:47.580 --> 11:48.900]  A lot of good t-shirts we saw.
[11:49.040 --> 11:49.980]  Really, the sense of humor.
[11:50.100 --> 11:51.760]  There's some hilarious shirts out there.
[11:52.120 --> 11:53.800]  So, that was great to see as well.
[11:53.940 --> 11:56.700]  I like the kid who had a shirt that said, give me space or something like that.
[11:56.720 --> 11:57.200]  Yeah, give me space.
[11:57.200 --> 11:59.200]  And it had like planets and so on.
[11:59.240 --> 12:01.620]  And he needed space too, because he was running around all over the place.
[12:01.780 --> 12:02.240]  Stuff like that.
[12:02.340 --> 12:05.380]  And there was also a Ghostbuster walking around with a full set of equipment.
[12:05.440 --> 12:08.840]  You know what freaked me out is seeing Kermit the Frog on a bicycle.
[12:09.020 --> 12:09.640]  Yes, a tricycle.
[12:09.660 --> 12:10.700]  Basically, a tricycle.
[12:10.800 --> 12:13.660]  But it was a Kermit the Frog, like Kermit the Frog size.
[12:13.860 --> 12:14.000]  Yeah.
[12:14.000 --> 12:18.260]  And it was pedaling, and there was no human controlling it next to it.
[12:18.280 --> 12:19.860]  And I was trying to figure out, how was this happening?
[12:20.040 --> 12:21.440]  It was like autonomous Kermit.
[12:21.540 --> 12:22.360]  I was scared.
[12:22.620 --> 12:24.480]  And it was just pedaled by, and it was really freaky.
[12:24.480 --> 12:25.040]  I was scared.
[12:25.040 --> 12:26.820]  I've had two nightmares about this so far.
[12:26.920 --> 12:29.580]  You know what I think is really the biggest part about...
[12:29.580 --> 12:34.500]  The effect of that is that, to us, Kermit is this personality.
[12:34.760 --> 12:37.420]  So you see him rolling by, you're like, hey, Kermit.
[12:37.520 --> 12:38.880]  You're like, whoa, wait a minute.
[12:39.340 --> 12:40.420]  What am I doing?
[12:40.760 --> 12:41.540]  Yes, exactly.
[12:42.520 --> 12:44.080]  So that was our weekend.
[12:44.300 --> 12:49.160]  And by the way, so much work on your part, Kyle, just organizing all of this.
[12:49.520 --> 12:54.080]  And also, people don't realize this, because they've probably never had to do it.
[12:54.080 --> 13:00.960]  But if you ever had to lift up a 1950s-era phone booth, you would realize, you would appreciate how heavy the damn thing is.
[13:01.180 --> 13:12.260]  And it took so much effort and so much coordination to get that thing into the 2600 van from the 1980s and get that thing back and forth.
[13:12.260 --> 13:13.100]  But we did it.
[13:13.160 --> 13:13.540]  We did it.
[13:13.580 --> 13:15.740]  And we're stronger for it.
[13:15.840 --> 13:17.900]  Yeah, it was our first attempt at this.
[13:17.900 --> 13:20.740]  And we're looking forward to doing it next time.
[13:20.740 --> 13:22.540]  Like I said, it was my pleasure.
[13:22.540 --> 13:30.880]  I had been planning and we'd been hoping and talking about doing more with our exhibition because of that spirit there.
[13:31.400 --> 13:32.840]  So yeah, nobody got injured.
[13:32.840 --> 13:41.040]  And we'll refine our techniques and maybe add some bells and actual whistles to this interesting booth.
[13:41.260 --> 13:45.820]  And look for that phone booth to appear at the Circle of Hope next July at Hotel Pennsylvania.
[13:46.120 --> 13:51.680]  Not quite sure what we're going to do with it yet, but we're open to suggestion, where we're going to put it, what we're going to connect it to.
[13:52.340 --> 13:53.800]  But it's pretty awesome.
[13:53.960 --> 13:56.520]  And it's great, too, because the fan works.
[13:56.520 --> 14:00.280]  If you've ever been inside an old-fashioned payphone, you would sit down on a chair.
[14:00.360 --> 14:01.020]  Yeah, they had chairs.
[14:01.240 --> 14:07.140]  You'd sit down on a chair, close the door, this light would come on, and a fan, if you had to switch up, a fan would also come on.
[14:07.360 --> 14:09.020]  And of course, there's the telephone as well.
[14:09.120 --> 14:12.180]  So we have all of that in this wooden phone booth.
[14:12.280 --> 14:13.220]  It's an indoor phone booth.
[14:14.100 --> 14:15.940]  And we're going to have that working as well.
[14:16.120 --> 14:17.880]  So that was our weekend.
[14:17.880 --> 14:19.400]  That was a ton of fun.
[14:19.580 --> 14:21.000]  I always look forward to these things.
[14:21.300 --> 14:23.620]  But we have other things to focus on.
[14:23.820 --> 14:27.880]  Okay, today something happened that kind of annoyed me a little bit.
[14:28.060 --> 14:33.020]  Because it's something that we've talked about here on this show.
[14:33.580 --> 14:35.460]  Something that we've tweeted about.
[14:35.600 --> 14:37.320]  Something that we've published in the magazine.
[14:37.720 --> 14:49.320]  I'm talking about the fact that a certain person, Jared Kushner, is registered as a female in the New York State voter tabu.
[14:49.420 --> 14:50.300]  What do you call it?
[14:50.360 --> 14:51.120]  Voter roles.
[14:51.520 --> 14:52.420]  Yeah, that's...
[14:52.420 --> 14:55.380]  And, you know, we basically...
[14:55.380 --> 14:57.440]  What we're telling people about this, nobody cared.
[14:57.540 --> 15:02.920]  In fact, the only thing, the only response we got was somebody who was angry that sex was even registered.
[15:03.480 --> 15:04.540]  You know, gender was registered.
[15:04.560 --> 15:05.680]  As if we had done it.
[15:05.740 --> 15:06.560]  As if it was our fault.
[15:06.980 --> 15:10.300]  So that's, you know, that's the typical kind of Twitter response you get.
[15:10.400 --> 15:11.720]  It's just somebody criticizing you.
[15:12.120 --> 15:13.600]  And nobody picked up the story.
[15:13.720 --> 15:17.460]  Until today, when Wired suddenly announced that, Hey, look at this.
[15:17.540 --> 15:18.420]  Jared Kushner is a female.
[15:18.940 --> 15:20.600]  And it's everywhere now.
[15:20.680 --> 15:21.580]  The story is everywhere.
[15:21.800 --> 15:23.920]  And Wired is getting all the credit for reporting it.
[15:24.020 --> 15:25.280]  When they weren't the first.
[15:25.440 --> 15:26.140]  We were the first.
[15:26.280 --> 15:30.200]  I'm not saying they took our story.
[15:30.200 --> 15:34.700]  I'm not saying that they did anything other than find out themselves in a different way.
[15:34.980 --> 15:37.200]  But let's get the record straight.
[15:37.400 --> 15:39.520]  You know, we publish this in our spring issue.
[15:39.700 --> 15:44.200]  And it's only becoming news today.
[15:45.160 --> 15:46.280]  It's just frustrating.
[15:46.540 --> 15:46.920]  You know, yeah.
[15:47.340 --> 15:51.580]  And it's not the first time either that this radio station has had that happen.
[15:51.780 --> 15:54.380]  Where something is broken on the air.
[15:54.580 --> 15:57.720]  And the mainstream ignores it until they do it.
[15:57.720 --> 15:59.780]  And then all of a sudden, it's breaking news.
[16:00.280 --> 16:03.640]  You can go back and listen to archives of WBAI.
[16:03.740 --> 16:05.200]  You can read archives of 2600.
[16:05.340 --> 16:06.640]  And all kinds of alternative media.
[16:07.080 --> 16:12.600]  And hear things that the mainstream don't find out about for a long, long time.
[16:13.280 --> 16:15.660]  And it's important to just know the history.
[16:15.660 --> 16:17.620]  To know what's behind all of this.
[16:17.620 --> 16:19.620]  So, yeah, I don't know why he's a female.
[16:19.840 --> 16:24.800]  Why he's registered in the voter rolls as female.
[16:25.000 --> 16:26.460]  It could be just a clerical error.
[16:26.600 --> 16:28.200]  It could be something that he checked off by mistake.
[16:28.340 --> 16:28.920]  Who knows?
[16:29.880 --> 16:32.140]  And there's other things, too, that we revealed, too.
[16:32.280 --> 16:33.820]  But we only have an hour.
[16:36.140 --> 16:38.020]  It's the nature of media, I guess.
[16:38.020 --> 16:45.740]  Yeah, if people have been paying attention, when we were talking about it back then, I think maybe we'd know answers to that by now.
[16:46.000 --> 16:49.980]  We're only beginning to ask the questions.
[16:50.360 --> 16:53.980]  Because perhaps our timing was off.
[16:53.980 --> 16:57.380]  Or we're not the right celebrity journalists.
[16:57.380 --> 16:58.340]  No, that's exactly it.
[16:58.340 --> 16:59.680]  We're not celebrity journalists.
[16:59.680 --> 17:01.260]  We don't have a million followers.
[17:01.500 --> 17:02.240]  And that's the thing.
[17:02.240 --> 17:07.820]  That's the problem I have with Twitter these days, is that if you don't have a million followers, nobody pays attention.
[17:08.060 --> 17:10.440]  Or just the same half-dozen people pay attention.
[17:11.180 --> 17:13.720]  And, you know, it's become a popularity contest.
[17:13.780 --> 17:15.900]  And that's not what I want to be involved in at all.
[17:16.740 --> 17:18.700]  We should be listening to alternative voices.
[17:18.700 --> 17:21.680]  We should be paying attention to what they say and spreading it around.
[17:21.840 --> 17:31.840]  You know, if George Takai sits on his phone and tweets something, I guarantee you that'll get more retweets than if I had Trump's tax return right now and tweeted a link to it.
[17:31.840 --> 17:32.520]  Guaranteed.
[17:33.160 --> 17:33.860]  Yeah, yeah.
[17:34.060 --> 17:35.620]  Don't test me on this because I'll prove it.
[17:36.660 --> 17:37.240]  I will.
[17:37.500 --> 17:39.540]  I don't think George Takai would sit on his phone.
[17:39.540 --> 17:41.220]  I don't want to be bitter about this.
[17:41.320 --> 17:50.760]  It's just frustrating because, you know, they're going to make all these jokes on late-night TV and the Daily Show and everything about, you know, this, about him being listed as a female.
[17:50.980 --> 17:53.580]  And Wired's going to get the credit and 2600 won't even be mentioned.
[17:53.740 --> 18:00.920]  And that's happened so many times in the past where, you know, we've had either an amazing keynote speaker at one of our HOPE conferences.
[18:00.920 --> 18:04.760]  And if it gets mentioned at all, it's just at a conference in New York.
[18:04.920 --> 18:06.360]  You know, they won't even say the name of the conference.
[18:06.600 --> 18:06.920]  Or they spell it wrong.
[18:07.140 --> 18:09.900]  Or they, you know, this technical magazine.
[18:10.080 --> 18:11.140]  They won't say the name of the magazine.
[18:11.300 --> 18:15.080]  There's all kinds of little passive-aggressive ways the mainstream media gets you.
[18:15.080 --> 18:22.440]  And sometimes it's just really, really annoying because people have the right to know the sources.
[18:22.500 --> 18:25.800]  They have the right to know where they can go to find out more.
[18:26.020 --> 18:33.440]  And whether it's a radio show, whether it's a magazine, whether it's a conference, what have you, there's all kinds of sources of information.
[18:33.440 --> 18:35.360]  And that's just in our community.
[18:35.640 --> 18:49.480]  Like I said, on this radio station, 24 hours a day, we have people from all different walks of life sharing their unique perspectives and oftentimes revealing things that the mainstream has no conception of.
[18:49.780 --> 18:55.180]  And they would if they shared it, if they listened and paid attention.
[18:55.180 --> 19:01.120]  Yeah, no, I'm not saying Wired would directly steal from us here at Off the Hook, but we can test this.
[19:01.240 --> 19:08.260]  If six months from now, an article pops up in Wired saying that we all had a great time at Maker Faire in September, then I think we have something to look out for.
[19:08.260 --> 19:12.180]  Well, you know, it's funny, and I don't think this is related either, but the author was a guest on this show.
[19:12.560 --> 19:14.540]  Now, that's just, you know...
[19:14.540 --> 19:22.140]  But again, you know, you can find out this information by looking at this, you know, at the voter polls yourself.
[19:22.140 --> 19:29.660]  But the fact is, you know, we did say this repeatedly, and people aren't paying attention, and they should be.
[19:29.980 --> 19:33.140]  And it makes you wonder what else might have been missed.
[19:33.500 --> 19:35.420]  And, you know, we're guilty too.
[19:35.620 --> 19:38.840]  We need to be paying more attention to other sources of news as well.
[19:39.140 --> 19:55.160]  But I think that's where social media can really come in handy, where we can not just spread the celebrity view, not just spread the popular view, but spread the interesting view, spread what people that you might not have ever heard of before are saying.
[19:55.320 --> 19:57.640]  And not just when somebody popular finds them.
[19:57.880 --> 19:58.900]  No, find them yourself.
[19:58.900 --> 19:59.580]  Don't wait.
[19:59.720 --> 20:01.980]  Don't wait for somebody else to tell you what's cool.
[20:02.160 --> 20:03.340]  You tell us what's cool.
[20:03.420 --> 20:04.540]  You tell the world what's cool.
[20:04.760 --> 20:10.140]  You know, that's what the great equalization of social media is supposed to be all about.
[20:10.140 --> 20:19.160]  And I just see it moving in the wrong direction, where just the most popular people are the ones that are listened to, and everybody else just is along for the ride.
[20:20.240 --> 20:22.960]  Maybe it'll change now that Twitter's going 280 characters.
[20:23.000 --> 20:23.720]  What do you think about that?
[20:24.100 --> 20:25.040]  Isn't that something?
[20:25.480 --> 20:30.060]  A whole lot more verbiage for every tweet.
[20:30.320 --> 20:32.460]  Okay, everyone's complaining about this.
[20:32.840 --> 20:33.520]  Everybody's complaining.
[20:33.560 --> 20:34.460]  And I don't get it.
[20:34.520 --> 20:36.540]  I don't get why this is an issue at all.
[20:37.100 --> 20:39.560]  You know, 140 characters is nothing.
[20:39.560 --> 20:41.320]  It's two lines of text.
[20:41.500 --> 20:45.480]  All right, so now we're saying four lines of text is going to be verbose.
[20:45.560 --> 20:48.960]  That's going to make people be all wordy and not get to the point.
[20:49.240 --> 20:49.960]  Come on.
[20:50.280 --> 20:54.100]  You know, a paragraph is concise in and of itself.
[20:54.380 --> 20:58.940]  All right, having 280 characters is really not that many characters at all.
[20:59.300 --> 21:06.700]  And if you can only read something that's 140 characters and 280, you start to doze off, I think that's the problem.
[21:06.700 --> 21:11.560]  I don't think we're being too wordy by having four lines of text to say something.
[21:11.740 --> 21:18.780]  Maybe this will allow people to learn how to spell again and to use proper grammar and not to abbreviate every single word.
[21:18.980 --> 21:27.580]  You know, I just find tweets to be so ridiculously abbreviated that they stop making sense after a while.
[21:27.580 --> 21:34.100]  And they're almost offensive to look at because everything is shorthand and just grammatically wrong.
[21:34.440 --> 21:37.900]  And there's not enough time to actually say what you mean.
[21:38.000 --> 21:45.100]  It's just basically you say the most gimmicky thing to try and get retweets and, you know, say something flashy.
[21:45.700 --> 21:49.580]  And the whole point of what you're saying in the first place is lost in the process.
[21:49.780 --> 21:55.380]  But then there's that aspect that the thing that made Twitter special was that everything was limited to short bursts.
[21:56.280 --> 22:00.940]  And so now Twitter is basically kind of edging away from the thing that makes it worth...
[22:00.940 --> 22:03.240]  But, Rob, 280 characters is also a short burst.
[22:03.580 --> 22:04.420]  I mean, seriously.
[22:05.060 --> 22:10.980]  The one sentence I'm saying now, which I still haven't put a period at the end of, is already more than 280 characters.
[22:11.240 --> 22:11.860]  That's true.
[22:11.860 --> 22:13.620]  Somebody check me on that, please.
[22:13.860 --> 22:21.160]  Lately, I think there's been a huge surge in people doing the thread thing on Twitter, where they keep responding to their own tweets to create a thread that you can read all in a row.
[22:21.360 --> 22:24.760]  And so you can see the argument for it either way.
[22:24.860 --> 22:25.820]  But, like, I don't know.
[22:25.840 --> 22:28.640]  I was burned by the Sci-Fi Channel in the 90s when they came out.
[22:28.640 --> 22:29.820]  And they're like, we're going to be all Sci-Fi.
[22:29.880 --> 22:30.940]  And it was great.
[22:31.020 --> 22:32.340]  And then they're like, we'd like to make more money.
[22:32.340 --> 22:33.440]  So let's put wrestling on.
[22:33.540 --> 22:35.500]  And let's put, like, other stuff on.
[22:35.560 --> 22:37.300]  And now they're not the Sci-Fi Channel anymore.
[22:37.340 --> 22:38.040]  They're called something else.
[22:38.040 --> 22:48.820]  Yeah, but the thing is, I'll be able to accept that on Sci-Fi or C-Fee, whatever they call themselves these days, by just saying that I am in a Sci-Fi world where science fiction doesn't mean science fiction anymore.
[22:49.180 --> 22:51.380]  And it just sort of all falls into place then.
[22:51.560 --> 22:52.360]  But yeah, you're right.
[22:52.480 --> 23:01.340]  Everything gets dumbed down or just a common denominator so that it's basically the same audience, whether it's watching Bravo, science fiction, independent film channel.
[23:01.500 --> 23:02.340]  They used to all be different.
[23:02.400 --> 23:04.160]  But now they're all pretty much the same.
[23:04.160 --> 23:07.840]  They all can have CSI on at some point and get away with it.
[23:08.400 --> 23:09.060]  All right.
[23:09.580 --> 23:10.960]  What else is going on?
[23:11.780 --> 23:15.040]  All kinds of fallout from the Equifax hack.
[23:15.140 --> 23:18.980]  Did you hear about this guy who made a fake Equifax site?
[23:18.980 --> 23:21.640]  Because the people at Equifax just keep getting it wrong.
[23:21.920 --> 23:31.940]  They put out a site for people to check if the 143 Americans to see if their information might have been exposed.
[23:32.240 --> 23:35.480]  It's called EquifaxSecurity2017.com.
[23:35.900 --> 23:44.320]  And this guy registered a site called SecurityEquifax2017.com, which sounds almost exactly the same, except those first two words were reversed.
[23:44.820 --> 23:48.900]  So convincing that even Equifax got it wrong and they tweeted the wrong site.
[23:49.100 --> 23:54.220]  So here we have Equifax now telling people to go to what could be potentially a malicious site.
[23:54.360 --> 23:55.320]  Turned out not to be malicious.
[23:55.700 --> 23:58.640]  Turned out to be a guy making a point, which is brilliant.
[23:58.640 --> 24:00.200]  And exactly what we should be doing.
[24:00.740 --> 24:04.100]  But it also goes to show how clueless these guys are.
[24:04.200 --> 24:05.200]  They don't know what they're doing.
[24:05.320 --> 24:12.300]  And they're somehow entrusted with all of our private information, you know, without us even giving them permission to do this.
[24:13.700 --> 24:15.540]  So big embarrassment for them.
[24:15.880 --> 24:17.060]  I don't know why.
[24:17.720 --> 24:24.640]  When you do something like this, and maybe every corporation should keep this in mind, use your own domain.
[24:24.640 --> 24:26.420]  You don't have to make a whole new site.
[24:26.420 --> 24:27.980]  You could have just had something.
[24:28.260 --> 24:32.960]  You could have security.equifax.com because you already have Equifax.com.
[24:33.120 --> 24:35.000]  Why make this whole other...
[24:35.000 --> 24:36.600]  Did I read the wrong one?
[24:36.720 --> 24:36.880]  Yeah.
[24:36.980 --> 24:37.840]  I read the wrong one again.
[24:38.260 --> 24:40.420]  Not EquifaxSecurity2017.com.
[24:40.500 --> 24:40.960]  That was theirs.
[24:41.340 --> 24:46.500]  Why get that ridiculous sounding domain name when you already have Equifax.com?
[24:46.500 --> 24:47.480]  I assume you have that.
[24:47.820 --> 24:49.460]  And you could just put a subdomain.
[24:49.640 --> 24:55.040]  If you don't know what a subdomain is, basically, it's another word with a dot before that.
[24:56.420 --> 24:58.980]  Take as many of those as you want and just hook them up to...
[24:58.980 --> 25:00.240]  It doesn't have to be the same machine.
[25:00.240 --> 25:01.420]  It could be anywhere in the world.
[25:02.060 --> 25:03.020]  They didn't do that.
[25:03.700 --> 25:05.720]  It would have been so easy to verify.
[25:05.880 --> 25:08.440]  A simple way to keep it at the same domain.
[25:08.760 --> 25:13.960]  And I think they even would have been able to have certificates that work.
[25:13.960 --> 25:16.080]  But that's a whole other story.
[25:16.540 --> 25:20.220]  But basically, the foolishness...
[25:20.220 --> 25:28.000]  I saw other examples where many other sites, misspellings rather, were registered as well.
[25:29.340 --> 25:48.160]  And so, essentially, the company is setting people up to go through this sort of minefield of domains to actually get some semblance of protection that they're deserving of as part of their mitigation of this crisis.
[25:48.400 --> 25:53.020]  We kind of reached the same conclusion after many years of doing the HOPE conferences.
[25:53.400 --> 25:55.480]  Every year, we would get a different domain.
[25:55.480 --> 26:02.900]  It was h2k.net, h2k2.net, thefifithhope.org, and HOPE No.
[26:03.040 --> 26:03.300]  6.
[26:03.840 --> 26:05.160]  And then we realized...
[26:05.280 --> 26:05.960]  Yeah, it's fun.
[26:06.000 --> 26:08.480]  And we're not storing people's information on there.
[26:08.660 --> 26:11.640]  Basically, it's just publicity for the conference.
[26:11.800 --> 26:12.440]  Yeah, information.
[26:12.720 --> 26:15.140]  Yeah, but then we realized, you know, this is getting expensive.
[26:15.140 --> 26:16.520]  We have to maintain all these.
[26:16.680 --> 26:17.980]  You know, we don't want them to expire.
[26:17.980 --> 26:21.960]  Why not just simply have HOPE.net and put a Roman numeral before that?
[26:22.100 --> 26:26.260]  So, the most recent one is xii.hope.net, the 12th conference.
[26:26.840 --> 26:27.280]  Simple.
[26:27.460 --> 26:30.680]  And you can do whatever you want with that domain.
[26:30.680 --> 26:48.200]  Yeah, but it's sort of emblematic of, I think, a bit of, like, corporate panic or whatnot, which we're probably getting only little bits and pieces of as the damage control rolls on.
[26:48.260 --> 26:48.620]  Yes.
[26:48.620 --> 26:50.500]  Which I'm sure we'll hear more and more about in the coming weeks.
[26:50.500 --> 26:52.660]  It is rolling in high gear.
[26:52.880 --> 27:00.880]  And I sure hope there's a class action lawsuit because this is something that none of us asked for, none of us signed up for, and we're all victims of it.
[27:01.040 --> 27:05.420]  And we're going to be paying for it for quite a while.
[27:05.540 --> 27:18.280]  I mean, basically, with the information that was obtained through this security hall, you can, in some states, access people's voting information.
[27:18.280 --> 27:24.240]  Because sometimes it just requires the last four digits of a social security number, first name, last name, zip code.
[27:24.680 --> 27:25.840]  You're in the door already.
[27:26.020 --> 27:27.100]  Who knows what you can do?
[27:27.240 --> 27:33.400]  You can unfreeze frozen credit cards, I believe.
[27:33.620 --> 27:35.780]  Or you can do all kinds of mischief.
[27:35.780 --> 27:38.540]  Or you can cause accounts to be frozen.
[27:38.540 --> 27:51.500]  Yeah, you can use credit repair and other sorts of sites and basically impersonate the person who sought protection and really mess up things even further.
[27:52.220 --> 27:58.500]  But that's one of many problems that this situation is going to bring about.
[27:58.680 --> 28:00.680]  So everybody's keeping an eye on that.
[28:01.560 --> 28:01.900]  Yep.
[28:01.980 --> 28:02.740]  And we will too.
[28:02.980 --> 28:03.640]  We certainly will.
[28:03.640 --> 28:11.520]  And if you have any comments or ideas or things that you'd like us to focus on, you can write to us, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[28:11.640 --> 28:13.820]  That's 2600.com.
[28:14.040 --> 28:20.900]  Hey, joining us on the phone right now is someone actually who called in a couple of weeks ago from Japan, our friend Karamun.
[28:20.980 --> 28:22.100]  Karamun, are you with us?
[28:23.060 --> 28:23.240]  Yep.
[28:23.440 --> 28:24.320]  Good morning from Tokyo.
[28:24.440 --> 28:25.040]  Can you hear me okay?
[28:25.420 --> 28:26.300]  Yes, we hear you.
[28:26.360 --> 28:27.540]  We also hear us a little bit.
[28:27.620 --> 28:28.260]  We hear some echo.
[28:28.460 --> 28:30.280]  This is the Project Censored show, and I am chosen.
[28:30.540 --> 28:31.940]  In fact, we're hearing...
[28:31.940 --> 28:32.360]  You know what?
[28:32.420 --> 28:33.000]  Hold on a second.
[28:33.000 --> 28:35.120]  There's another thing playing on this computer.
[28:35.360 --> 28:38.040]  Just bear with us a moment while we figure out what it is.
[28:38.560 --> 28:40.260]  Two things playing at the same time.
[28:41.160 --> 28:42.360]  Wow, we didn't see this coming.
[28:42.400 --> 28:44.060]  Yes, the button we didn't see.
[28:44.640 --> 28:45.240]  Yeah, well...
[28:45.240 --> 28:46.080]  After Adam back.
[28:46.080 --> 28:47.120]  No, it's still playing, Arb.
[28:47.200 --> 28:47.640]  Still playing.
[28:47.800 --> 28:49.440]  We got to kill whatever that is.
[28:50.260 --> 28:51.340]  Yeah, did you find it?
[28:51.460 --> 28:51.660]  Yes.
[28:51.800 --> 28:51.980]  Okay.
[28:51.980 --> 28:52.940]  Something that was left by a previous...
[28:52.940 --> 28:54.100]  We killed the audio.
[28:54.400 --> 28:54.560]  Yes.
[28:54.760 --> 28:55.640]  Karamun, are you with us?
[28:56.600 --> 28:58.260]  Yes, I'm very much with you.
[28:58.320 --> 28:58.860]  Okay, sorry about that.
[28:58.860 --> 28:59.580]  Very far away.
[28:59.800 --> 29:00.420]  Very far away.
[29:03.000 --> 29:06.440]  Which I think is about 7,000 miles from New York.
[29:06.620 --> 29:07.140]  Something like that.
[29:07.260 --> 29:08.140]  Depends which way you go.
[29:08.840 --> 29:11.600]  If you went around the other way, it would be probably further.
[29:12.280 --> 29:15.220]  I'd be about 18,000 miles, I think, the other way.
[29:15.420 --> 29:18.760]  Now, Karamun, you've been in the hacker world for quite some time.
[29:18.760 --> 29:21.940]  I believe you gave a talk on Alan Turing at Home Number 6.
[29:21.940 --> 29:22.460]  Is that correct?
[29:23.540 --> 29:24.120]  Yeah, I did.
[29:24.360 --> 29:25.900]  So, yeah, that was quite a while ago.
[29:27.380 --> 29:28.760]  But, yeah, I mean, things...
[29:28.760 --> 29:34.400]  I think things really started when, you know, I was sort of four or five years old using 8-bit computers.
[29:35.600 --> 29:44.440]  In the UK, we had a computer called the BBC Micro, which may be kind of similar to the Trash 80, although vastly superior.
[29:45.700 --> 29:47.880]  And, yeah, that's how I got started, really.
[29:47.880 --> 29:51.080]  And you started in England, correct?
[29:51.240 --> 29:53.040]  And you've moved since then to Tokyo.
[29:54.060 --> 29:55.920]  Yeah, so I moved to Tokyo...
[29:56.860 --> 29:58.400]  Well, I moved to Tokyo twice.
[29:58.620 --> 29:59.800]  So the first time...
[29:59.800 --> 30:03.340]  I think I arrived in Tokyo on September 11th, 2001.
[30:03.860 --> 30:04.640]  Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[30:05.180 --> 30:05.980]  Wait a minute.
[30:06.260 --> 30:08.200]  That's quite a day to arrive anywhere.
[30:08.620 --> 30:09.100]  Wow.
[30:09.400 --> 30:10.460]  I didn't know that.
[30:11.100 --> 30:11.760]  That must have been a weird...
[30:11.760 --> 30:21.380]  My first night in Japan, I was woken up by the host family who said, you know, big news is happening, and, yeah, we sat there watching TV, and, yeah.
[30:21.560 --> 30:26.660]  Yeah, because when you arrived on September 11th, it was probably still September 10th here, so...
[30:27.280 --> 30:27.880]  Yeah, exactly.
[30:28.100 --> 30:28.360]  Wow.
[30:29.060 --> 30:32.900]  You've also been the co-founder of Tokyo Hacker Space.
[30:32.900 --> 30:35.020]  You've been involved with the Tokyo Bar Camp.
[30:35.260 --> 30:36.300]  Is that all correct?
[30:37.240 --> 30:45.260]  Yeah, so when I did Tokyo Bar Camp, a friend of mine came to stay for a week, Mitch Altman.
[30:45.260 --> 30:46.120]  He was...
[30:46.680 --> 30:53.440]  He came to stay for the Tokyo Maker Fair, so he came to Bar Camp, and he had just founded...
[30:53.440 --> 31:03.520]  or he had just co-founded a hackerspace in San Francisco called Noisebridge, and he gave a talk about hackerspaces, and obviously, we were all very interested in that.
[31:03.840 --> 31:12.140]  And, you know, I'd been familiar with hackerspaces because of being at the first CCC camp.
[31:12.140 --> 31:14.920]  Um, if you remember in, uh, Finnell...
[31:14.920 --> 31:15.620]  Is it Finnell Fort?
[31:15.880 --> 31:19.680]  Uh, do you remember it was in that, um, air base that...
[31:19.680 --> 31:19.980]  Yes.
[31:20.420 --> 31:21.340]  ...been turned into a museum?
[31:21.540 --> 31:21.920]  Yes.
[31:22.080 --> 31:22.940]  I do remember that.
[31:22.940 --> 31:24.700]  We did some broadcast from there, I believe, as well.
[31:24.860 --> 31:27.360]  So, yeah, that was definitely a bit of history right there.
[31:27.560 --> 31:28.440]  Yeah, so that...
[31:28.440 --> 31:45.280]  If you remember, that year was, um, when hackerspaces really sort of took off because of a couple of German hackers, uh, in, in the previous years have basically, you know, made it their goal to go and visit most of the hackerspaces around the world and document,
[31:45.620 --> 31:50.300]  um, what was going on and what was sort of best practices.
[31:50.580 --> 31:57.540]  So they made a sort of hackerspace design patterns and, uh, yep, they, they sort of explained about that at the camp.
[31:57.820 --> 32:03.460]  And, uh, I think that was when Nick Farr was, Nick Farr had also got involved in, in the hackerspace movement at that point.
[32:04.420 --> 32:04.820]  Wow.
[32:05.240 --> 32:21.620]  Well, now, also, there is, um, there's a, a very, uh, serious side to your story as well, because, uh, this is, um, what we, um, uh, had found out about, uh, actually, shamefully last year, and we have not followed up, and we should have, uh, you were actually given the,
[32:21.720 --> 32:41.140]  um, uh, the incredibly, uh, difficult news that, uh, you had terminal cancer, that you were given five months to live last year, uh, and, um, you were looking, uh, to the community to get, um, uh, to get help, uh, to, uh, to get immunotherapy, uh, which is one of the reasons that you moved to Japan,
[32:41.140 --> 32:59.840]  uh, and, um, well, happy to say that, that prognosis was not, uh, entirely correct, but you're still, uh, facing some, some real challenges and some real, um, I, I, I imagine very, very difficult, uh, things that people your age should not have to face.
[33:01.020 --> 33:06.020]  Yeah, I get, I mean, it's, it's difficult, it's, you know, it's, it's also very interesting.
[33:06.540 --> 33:09.520]  Um, cat cancer is, is, is fascinating.
[33:09.980 --> 33:31.240]  Um, I'm 37, so I was, I was 36 last, last year when I was suddenly diagnosed in, um, July, and, you know, it's a complete surprise, um, I didn't got, I picked up a chest infection on, on an airplane, and then when I was given some anti, like strong antibiotics to knock out the chest infection,
[33:31.240 --> 33:49.460]  I got really bad reaction from that, uh, family doctor was a bit suspicious, sent me some tests, and, uh, I was very surprised, A, to find out I had cancer, and then a week later to find out it was, uh, terminal, um, and a few days after that, found out it was not just terminal,
[33:49.640 --> 33:54.080]  but it was, you know, a very aggressive cancer that, um, kills you quite quickly.
[33:54.400 --> 33:59.140]  So yeah, it was, it was, it was quite a shock, and, um, yeah, it's been interesting.
[33:59.300 --> 34:01.540]  I'm quite surprised to still be alive, I guess.
[34:01.840 --> 34:04.160]  Um, the immunotherapy is definitely working.
[34:04.720 --> 34:06.600]  Well, that's, that's, that's great to hear.
[34:06.760 --> 34:11.160]  I mean, it's just your, your, your response is, I guess it's in typical hacker fashion.
[34:11.420 --> 34:17.060]  Uh, you, you refer to it as, as interesting and fascinating and, and, and words like that other people might not use.
[34:17.360 --> 34:28.280]  Uh, but, um, what, what, what is the hacker perspective when looking at, at something, uh, so, uh, so incredibly, uh, dramatic as this?
[34:28.360 --> 34:29.120]  So, so scary.
[34:30.040 --> 34:50.180]  So, I mean, for, for me, hacking is really about, um, continually asking questions, but also, um, for, for every piece of information or every kind of model of thinking, um, digging deeper and deeper and deeper, so peeling back the layers, finding, you know,
[34:50.280 --> 34:52.920]  the, the sort of, um, underlying reality.
[34:53.340 --> 35:06.700]  Um, and of course, being very sceptical because, you know, there's a lot of disinformation, um, about cancer, um, sort of, you know, rather unnecessary conspiracy theories about drug companies.
[35:06.960 --> 35:15.480]  I, you know, I say unnecessary because, um, you know, the, the, the drug companies are very, very open about how they've got everything set up to make a huge amount of money.
[35:15.660 --> 35:22.620]  They don't need to, um, they don't need to be suppressing cures for cancer or anything like that to make, um, criminal amounts of money.
[35:23.040 --> 35:39.480]  Um, and of course, you know, coming from a technology background, when you get into, into the world of medicine and particularly the world of medical research, um, it's, it's shocking how un-technical it is, how, how backwards it is, really.
[35:39.820 --> 35:45.380]  Um, there's nothing modern about scientific medical research and drug development.
[35:45.620 --> 35:49.880]  They're using the same methods from, you know, 1940s, 1950s.
[35:50.000 --> 35:55.820]  There's no technology involved at all, or not what, you know, you and I would refer to as real technology.
[35:56.000 --> 36:02.460]  So, you know, just for example, um, the cost of developing new drugs is going up, not down.
[36:02.700 --> 36:08.260]  And in fact, it doubles, um, about every nine years or over a nine year period rather.
[36:08.540 --> 36:16.520]  And this is referred to in the medical world as E-Room's law, which, um, if you think about that, it's, it's a joke because it's Moore's law backwards.
[36:16.740 --> 36:17.220]  Oh, wow.
[36:17.800 --> 36:24.780]  You know, Moore's law says that, so, you know, for, for, for listeners unfamiliar with Moore's law, first of all, it's not a law at all.
[36:24.920 --> 36:40.860]  It's an observation, but it says essentially every, you know, year and a half, every two years, the transistor density in a microchip doubles, which means, you know, you can get double the computing power for the, um, same price or same computing power for,
[36:41.100 --> 36:43.700]  you know, half of what you paid two years ago.
[36:43.900 --> 36:54.680]  But in, in the medical world, um, there's, there's very much, um, uh, a sort of silo culture, which means that, you know, people are in their isolated little areas.
[36:55.200 --> 37:09.800]  So, um, you know, even, um, even an oncological surgeon who you'd think would be keeping up with all the developments in cancer care, they would mainly be looking at surgery because they are a surgeon.
[37:09.960 --> 37:22.200]  They wouldn't know about things like hypothermia, which is, is, um, a type of therapy where you treat cancer using, uh, radio waves to induce heating of organs and that, that damages cancer cells in many ways.
[37:22.740 --> 37:32.080]  Um, again, someone, a doctor who, who mainly uses chemotherapy, wouldn't be familiar with immunotherapy or all these, you know, other, other treatments.
[37:32.220 --> 37:43.100]  So it's, it's, it's very, very backwards looking that the drug companies will justify this by saying, well, if we didn't do our research in our way, we wouldn't do any research at all.
[37:43.160 --> 37:52.180]  But it's, it's a ridiculous hit and miss process that drug companies investigate about 5,000 chemical agents at once.
[37:52.360 --> 37:58.100]  They'll find about three, four or five that are promising and one will eventually turn into a drug.
[37:58.200 --> 38:04.960]  So you're, you know, you're mainly paying for the, the failures of their research when you see these incredibly expensive drugs.
[38:05.200 --> 38:10.680]  Can you tell us something about, um, the healthcare that you're getting in Japan right now?
[38:10.820 --> 38:14.080]  Is it, is it, uh, sufficient to, to be, uh, tackling?
[38:14.240 --> 38:14.240]  Yeah.
[38:14.240 --> 38:18.340]  So I, I, I, I, you know, I should point out as, as you said, I'm, I'm from England.
[38:18.440 --> 38:35.480]  So in England, we have completely free, we have, um, what's called universal healthcare, which means it's free for everybody, um, free at the point of, um, of treatment, I should say, because obviously, you know, we, we pay for it through, um, taxation and national insurance.
[38:35.780 --> 38:47.480]  So, you know, I did, I very much have the, the, um, opportunity of getting treated in the UK, um, not paying anything at all, um, instead of the Japanese system, which has a hybrid system.
[38:48.060 --> 39:00.740]  So it's a national insurance system where we, you know, we pay a monthly national insurance, uh, maybe as an individual or maybe as a family, and then any healthcare costs, the government pays 70% of that.
[39:00.800 --> 39:03.740]  And the individual is expected to pay 30%.
[39:03.740 --> 39:07.680]  Although, um, there's actually some flexibility there.
[39:07.920 --> 39:15.280]  And, you know, if you're, if you're on welfare or whatever, or financial difficulty, the government will pay, um, you know, all of it.
[39:15.440 --> 39:25.560]  So, yeah, I, I had the option of having completely free healthcare, but I decided to, um, come to Japan because I generally divide my time between the UK and Japan anyway.
[39:25.800 --> 39:27.900]  So it was an option for me.
[39:28.360 --> 39:39.360]  Um, and I knew that the standard healthcare in Japan was, you know, maybe 10 years ahead of the UK, probably about five years ahead of the US.
[39:40.040 --> 39:45.780]  Um, but that, that makes a difference when you have a terminal illness, you want every, every advantage possible.
[39:46.240 --> 39:50.300]  Um, so I decided to have my healthcare in, in Japan.
[39:50.600 --> 40:10.160]  And also I didn't realize when I was making this decision, but you know, when, once I came back to Japan, I found that there was sort of, um, some private healthcare care clinics run by public hospitals, um, as a way of bringing the absolute latest, um,
[40:10.480 --> 40:12.280]  treatments, the sort of really cutting edge stuff.
[40:13.040 --> 40:22.240]  Um, and private healthcare was not something that was, was a possibility for me because of financial reasons.
[40:22.440 --> 40:28.680]  But my sister started, um, crowdfunding, um, which, you know, in itself is quite an interesting experience.
[40:28.980 --> 40:37.260]  Um, and you know, so far the money's been coming in just about enough to, to cover the private healthcare as well.
[40:37.440 --> 40:54.980]  So for me, with, with my standard healthcare, I had, I had very major surgery last August and, you know, I have chemotherapy, um, every, every two weeks lasting for three days plus three or four days of side effects.
[40:55.140 --> 41:02.820]  So I live this bizarre life where I sort of have one week where I'm not really able to, to function very well as a, as a human.
[41:03.140 --> 41:05.180]  And then the following week I'm kind of fine.
[41:05.320 --> 41:06.760]  And then it's time for chemotherapy again.
[41:06.760 --> 41:19.400]  But in parallel to that, I'm having cutting edge, um, treatments at a private clinic where, um, this, this sounds strange, but I'm being treated with a, with a medicine made with my own blood.
[41:20.000 --> 41:23.740]  So, um, I, I, I go to the clinic.
[41:23.860 --> 41:38.480]  I have, um, my blood, my, my blood is sort of, is sort of taken by a process called aphorosis or aphorosis, which, which means they, they take the blood with a machine, I think a bit like a kidney dialysis machine.
[41:38.480 --> 41:42.920]  So they take the blood, they filter out the bit that they want, which in my case is the white blood cells.
[41:43.340 --> 41:49.720]  They kindly return, um, my, my blood to me, uh, those white blood cells are sent off to a lab.
[41:50.100 --> 41:59.500]  And over a three week period, they go through something called expansion, which I think is just a fancy word for saying that the, the cells get grown in a lab.
[41:59.840 --> 42:05.720]  So when they return to me, they've been, um, increased by, I think it's about a billion to one ratio.
[42:05.960 --> 42:20.280]  So for every white blood cell, I get a billion back, um, which, you know, when you have cancers is very important because cancer, you know, not, not many people know what cancer really is and cancer is really a combination of two things.
[42:20.440 --> 42:28.940]  It's, it's a, some kind of genetic problem and also some kind of problem with how cells naturally live and most importantly, naturally die.
[42:29.240 --> 42:39.860]  So that the cancer cells are not sending the, the right messages, um, to say, you know, um, it's time for me to die and the immune system should, should kill me.
[42:40.400 --> 42:48.240]  Um, this is, this is called PD one program program, program death one, which is the name of a protein that cells should express when it's time to die.
[42:48.760 --> 42:53.440]  So for me, it's very important to have these extra white blood cells.
[42:53.700 --> 42:56.860]  Um, and because of the lab conditions, they're very active.
[42:56.860 --> 43:01.360]  So these white blood cells are called NK cells, which is a natural killer cells.
[43:01.580 --> 43:06.000]  And these are your white type of white blood cell that can, um, attack cancer cells.
[43:06.180 --> 43:06.960]  They're put back into me.
[43:07.100 --> 43:07.240]  Yeah.
[43:07.300 --> 43:12.660]  It's just quite, it sounds like you're analyzing this as if it was a computer program that needs debugging.
[43:13.000 --> 43:15.640]  And, uh, the parallels I think are really fascinating.
[43:16.720 --> 43:17.120]  Yeah.
[43:17.480 --> 43:24.380]  Um, you know, it was interesting when I first, um, said to my oncologist, you know, um, I'm, I'm pursuing these new treatments.
[43:24.380 --> 43:26.400]  I read a lot on, on, on the web.
[43:26.400 --> 43:28.480]  You know, he, he was, he was very, very skeptical.
[43:28.480 --> 43:45.760]  But when I explained that, you know, I was reading the, the same medical papers that he, he reads essentially, um, because, you know, although most of those things are behind a paywall, um, obviously as a hacker, um, we, uh, yeah, paywalls are transparent for us.
[43:46.040 --> 44:00.960]  And just, you know, just, just with some reasonable Google skills, you, you can often find, you know, PDFs of these, uh, these papers that are appearing and, uh, that, you know, the, the BitTorrent fairy provides us with lots of lovely information as well.
[44:01.180 --> 44:01.440]  Absolutely.
[44:01.740 --> 44:10.800]  So, uh, Cameron, I just want to give you the opportunity, uh, a couple of times to give out, uh, any website that leads to any, any kind of crowdfunding that you, uh, that you set up.
[44:11.560 --> 44:12.000]  Sure.
[44:12.220 --> 44:16.740]  So, um, my website is, uh, caramoon.tech.
[44:17.220 --> 44:19.400]  This is one of those stupid new top-level domains.
[44:19.680 --> 44:21.640]  Um, I thought I'd try it for fun.
[44:21.720 --> 44:27.460]  So that's caramoon, K-A-R-A-M-O-O-N.tech, T-E-C.
[44:28.380 --> 44:29.520]  T-E-C-H, right?
[44:29.600 --> 44:31.860]  Another thing, yep, so .tech, caramoon.tech.
[44:32.020 --> 44:47.820]  And that forwards to a GoFundMe page so people can, you know, read my updates, they can watch my YouTube videos there, um, which I think are very useful if, if, you know, someone in, in, in your, your family or personal circle sadly has cancer.
[44:48.560 --> 44:59.460]  Um, another thing I've done is I, I wrote a list of, of really what I wish I had known or been told, um, you know, a year ago.
[44:59.620 --> 45:09.660]  So I wrote my, my top 10 cancer tips and I put them in a, on a Facebook post, which is, is going viral and, and almost 10,000 people have seen that.
[45:09.720 --> 45:10.720]  Um, Wow.
[45:10.980 --> 45:18.700]  The, the web, web address for that is ridiculous, but what I've done is again, I've set up another URL that forwards to that Facebook page.
[45:18.700 --> 45:26.220]  So that's cancer tips dot X, Y, Z, another one of these stupid top level domains of the becoming.
[45:26.440 --> 45:27.080]  No, that's great.
[45:27.300 --> 45:27.880]  That's, that's awesome.
[45:28.900 --> 45:32.980]  So people, you know, that's an easy to remember URL cancer tips dot X, Y, Z.
[45:33.240 --> 45:39.960]  And if you go there, you see that there's the, you know, the, the, the 10, the 10 things I really wish I had been told.
[45:40.380 --> 45:55.760]  Um, the sort of things you're, you know, your doctor doesn't tell you like, you know, I don't want to upset any doctors, but I, I think it's really important that, you know, you listen to the doctors, but you also really pay attention to the cancer nurses because,
[45:56.300 --> 46:05.920]  you know, cancer nurse may have seen the patient a couple of times a week for chemotherapy for five years, for hours at a time.
[46:05.920 --> 46:15.980]  So they're spending far more time with the patients than the doctors are, you know, a doctor might have, you know, 10, well, five minutes in the UK to be with a patient, uh, maybe a bit longer in other, other countries.
[46:16.200 --> 46:25.940]  So, you know, I think listening to the, to the cancer nurses for their anecdotal evidence about, um, you know, what makes a difference in cancer survival, that's really important.
[46:26.120 --> 46:29.460]  So it's tips like that, that, you know, you wouldn't necessarily get from, from your doctor.
[46:30.000 --> 46:33.300]  Um, so yeah, people have been finding that useful and, uh, it's lovely to see it.
[46:33.420 --> 46:36.720]  You know, I'm no, I'm no fan of Facebook, but it is lovely to see it going viral.
[46:36.900 --> 46:40.640]  And it's nice to think, you know, 10,000 or so people have read that now.
[46:40.640 --> 46:54.880]  No, uh, Cameron there, this is something that, um, unfortunately you're, you're facing way too early in life, but it's something that we all will have to face in one way or another, whether it's somebody who's close to us, whether it's ourselves, how,
[46:55.180 --> 47:01.240]  um, what would you, what would you say to, to people who, um, who might find themselves going down this road?
[47:01.320 --> 47:04.080]  Is there anything that, that made it easier for you to handle?
[47:05.180 --> 47:14.380]  Well, you know, I think any, any problem in life, you know, there's that, that, that famous three-step process, you know, number one, don't worry alone.
[47:14.720 --> 47:17.920]  That means you, you know, tell, tell other people what's going on.
[47:18.200 --> 47:24.660]  Um, I made a decision very early on, you know, in the first few days to, to tell people and tell people as much as I knew.
[47:25.540 --> 47:28.000]  Um, number two is really, really get the facts.
[47:28.000 --> 47:30.800]  So you want to, you know, want to go and look out for that information.
[47:31.300 --> 47:36.280]  Um, be, be, be skeptical, but particularly, you know, about what you find on the, on the web.
[47:36.460 --> 47:40.040]  There's a lot of disinformation, there's a lot of cancer myths out there.
[47:40.420 --> 47:47.200]  Um, but, you know, get as much information as, as, as you can keep, um, keep getting that information through the whole process.
[47:47.420 --> 47:49.680]  And number three, make, you know, make a clear plan.
[47:50.040 --> 47:57.460]  So, you know, for me having, having terminal cancer, which, you know, means the cancer is expected to kill me quite soon.
[47:57.880 --> 48:10.040]  Um, it's very difficult to have painful and up, you know, distressing treatments like chemotherapy, but because, because they're not expected to, to cure, cure you.
[48:10.260 --> 48:26.600]  But, you know, I, I have a, I have a clear plan, you know, my immunotherapist and my oncologist are trying to get the cancer to, um, a very small size so that I can then treat it with, you know, a truly space age technology like proton beam therapy, which uses,
[48:26.720 --> 48:34.540]  you know, a, a particle accelerator, the, the weight of two double-decker buses, um, you know, that kind of thing.
[48:34.680 --> 48:38.080]  So having, you know, having a clear plan would make a big difference.
[48:38.280 --> 48:51.400]  And, you know, for me, I was very lucky that sort of a week after the terminal diagnosis, I met my friend Eben Upton, maybe you saw him at, uh, Maker Faire this, uh, this weekend, he, he invented the Raspberry Pi computer.
[48:51.600 --> 48:53.180]  He's a good, good friend of mine.
[48:53.280 --> 49:06.420]  He told me the story of, um, the people in the first wave of HIV in, in the eighties where, you know, treat treatments were coming out, but, you know, only expected to help people live a few months.
[49:06.520 --> 49:13.220]  But there's a, as a, for a small percentage of people, they had a good response, lived a few more months, and then another treatment came along.
[49:13.380 --> 49:24.840]  And, and in fact, now in 2017, there's still a handful of people alive who were in that first wave in, in the 1980s, you know, that first terrible wave of HIV.
[49:25.580 --> 49:35.640]  And they were just the ones who, you know, each time they were able to get the, the, the new treatment often in a, in a drug trial, um, so experimental treatments.
[49:35.900 --> 49:42.360]  And, you know, they were the ones who were fortunate enough to, to kind of live for a few more months for the next treatment to come along.
[49:42.620 --> 49:48.980]  So, you know, being told that by, by Eben was, um, yeah, that really changed my perspective, I guess.
[49:49.280 --> 49:52.740]  Well, I think perspective does play a lot into this.
[49:52.860 --> 49:59.180]  After all, uh, consider, uh, it was in August of last year, you were told you had five months, that would be January of this year.
[49:59.340 --> 50:00.980]  And it's, it's now almost October.
[50:01.820 --> 50:06.700]  And, um, you know, it's, um, you're, you're definitely beating the odds here.
[50:07.000 --> 50:12.740]  And I, I, I don't see why you should ever give up on, on thinking that you'll continue to beat the odds.
[50:13.860 --> 50:14.260]  Yeah.
[50:14.380 --> 50:20.660]  I mean, but particularly with, um, with bowel cancer, which is the type, you know, type of cancer I have, and also breast cancer.
[50:21.060 --> 50:36.640]  Um, it's, it's really, really important that you don't give up, um, you know, even, even when you're, you're on your deathbed in hospital, because those two cancers, um, for, for various reasons are, are ones where, you know, there's, there's a, there can be,
[50:36.840 --> 50:54.080]  you know, sudden spontaneous response to, to treatment, um, or, or what's called, um, spontaneous partial, partial remission because, because of the very complex signaling pathways in, in your body with the interplay of the immune system and the genetics and then the epigenetics.
[50:54.260 --> 50:59.220]  So that's all the, the environment around the DNA that affects how the DNA is interpreted.
[50:59.380 --> 51:13.180]  So particularly with those two cancers, but, you know, I'd say in general, you, you never really want to, want to give up, you know, uh, make a plan and, uh, you know, do your best because there's, there's nothing to be gained by, by giving into cancer,
[51:13.200 --> 51:13.440]  really.
[51:14.200 --> 51:14.640]  Absolutely.
[51:14.800 --> 51:18.300]  And so many other parts of life you can apply that, that philosophy to.
[51:18.480 --> 51:24.780]  Can you tell me how, how has, uh, the hacker community, the, the, the tech community in general, uh, responded?
[51:26.180 --> 51:30.500]  So, um, yeah, people have been very interested.
[51:30.500 --> 51:36.820]  Um, I think that, you know, the hacker community have a very kind of healthy skeptical mindset.
[51:36.840 --> 51:39.160]  So that's, you know, that's been very useful.
[51:39.680 --> 51:46.520]  Um, my friend bicycle Mark has, you know, worked tirelessly to promote my crowdfunding campaign.
[51:46.720 --> 51:49.060]  There's, there's an interviewed me several times.
[51:49.280 --> 51:55.080]  He's, um, he's got two, two podcasts, citizen reporter, which is actually one of the, I think one of the oldest podcasts out there.
[51:55.080 --> 52:00.280]  So he's interviewed me for that and also his newer podcast, um, the realities podcast.
[52:01.020 --> 52:06.640]  And yes, so he's worked tirelessly to, you know, promote, promote my, my campaigning.
[52:07.220 --> 52:12.720]  Um, and yeah, you know, always, whenever I've reached out to the hacker community for things.
[52:12.880 --> 52:27.420]  So, you know, in, in 2011, um, we had the, the, the triple disaster in, um, northern Japan, in Tohoku, where we had the, the earthquake, the tsunami, and, um, what we later found out were a nuclear meltdown.
[52:27.740 --> 52:39.500]  Um, and Tokyo hackerspace, um, you know, really, uh, jumped into action and, and, but also, you know, Tokyo hackerspace and, and I personally reached out to the hacker community.
[52:39.500 --> 52:45.300]  And, uh, I reached out to people like Dan Kaminsky, who, who promoted our, our calls for help around the world.
[52:46.040 --> 52:51.220]  Um, and, you know, hackers all over the world were, were sending donations to Tokyo hackerspace.
[52:51.500 --> 53:00.380]  Um, and we were, you know, because of, of being sort of, um, there on the ground, we would be able to, to go and get, you know, give people help straight away.
[53:00.520 --> 53:06.540]  So yeah, I think, you know, the hacker, hacker community, they're always, they're always there to, to help out.
[53:06.760 --> 53:14.740]  And, you know, they're very quick and everything is sort of, um, based on, on firsthand information in the hacking community.
[53:14.960 --> 53:28.540]  I think, you know, it's, it's very interesting that, you know, although we do stuff online, you know, every, every two years, thousands of people gather in, in New York for, for hope to, to physically be in the same, same space as each other.
[53:28.720 --> 53:31.580]  And, uh, you know, share those personal stories.
[53:31.940 --> 53:36.020]  Um, I go to a, a lot of the, the hacker events in, in Europe.
[53:36.280 --> 53:46.240]  So things like the, the chaos communication Congress, the chaos communication camp, the, the hippies from hell, um, series as well, all that kind of stuff.
[53:46.440 --> 53:53.240]  So yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's very interesting that we, I think as hackers, we know that you need to go and experience things firsthand.
[53:53.500 --> 54:02.000]  Don't, you know, don't believe, um, what you're, you're told, uh, through the media, go on and, you know, get the facts and talk, talk to the real people involved.
[54:02.000 --> 54:08.040]  Have you had other people facing similar, uh, prognosis, um, uh, contacting you?
[54:09.240 --> 54:09.640]  Yeah.
[54:09.920 --> 54:12.420]  So, you know, it's, it's one of those interesting things.
[54:12.560 --> 54:21.400]  I think it's, it's, it's a big case of confirmation bias that, you know, as soon as, as soon as you're directly affected by cancer, you, you know, you see it everywhere.
[54:22.180 --> 54:26.040]  Um, and yeah, you know, people have contacted me a lot for, for advice.
[54:26.240 --> 54:32.520]  People have, you know, often said things like, you know, I've read this, you know, I've read that chemotherapy kills more people And it saves.
[54:32.660 --> 54:33.160]  Is it true?
[54:33.460 --> 54:42.660]  And, you know, I explained the origins of that myth, the flawed, you know, research and, you know, explain the facts.
[54:42.660 --> 54:44.700]  And, you know, I'm no fan of chemotherapy.
[54:44.900 --> 54:47.920]  I absolutely hate it.
[54:48.120 --> 54:48.880]  It's unpleasant.
[54:48.940 --> 54:50.120]  And I think it's a dumb treatment.
[54:50.280 --> 54:53.700]  But it's, unfortunately, one of the best we have at the moment.
[54:53.920 --> 54:59.000]  So yeah, people, you know, often ask me and again, from a technology point of view.
[54:59.180 --> 55:08.680]  And, you know, I think there's also a little bit more, you know, awareness now about things like the security issues of, you know, medical devices, which is a, you know, very big topic.
[55:08.880 --> 55:15.100]  Why should the CT scanner be connected to the web and be running, you know, Windows XP or whatever?
[55:15.640 --> 55:16.140]  Yes.
[55:17.080 --> 55:17.600]  Wow.
[55:17.760 --> 55:28.480]  Now, is there... I know you've touched upon some of the treatment options, but is there anything that you look towards as having the most promise down the road for the biggest number of people?
[55:30.420 --> 55:32.020]  That's a very interesting question.
[55:32.300 --> 55:38.640]  So, particularly in the US, there's a lot of move towards what's called personalized medicine.
[55:39.120 --> 55:42.920]  So medicine that's, you know, works for the individual person.
[55:42.920 --> 55:45.360]  So that would be based on genetic testing.
[55:45.360 --> 55:53.540]  So you have a full genome sequencing, which now, you know, can be done in, I think, about 24 hours or something in a lab.
[55:53.600 --> 55:54.380]  It's pretty quick.
[55:54.380 --> 55:56.840]  You know, maybe cost about $1,000.
[55:56.920 --> 55:58.040]  It's not expensive.
[55:58.480 --> 56:00.760]  And then you'd be given medicines based on that.
[56:01.380 --> 56:10.200]  I have quite the opposite opinion that what we really need is kind of generic treatment that works for almost all cancers.
[56:10.200 --> 56:14.740]  So these are treatments that change the microenvironment of the tumors, primarily.
[56:15.180 --> 56:21.920]  So, you know, cancer has a lot of protection against your immune system, but they're often off-label drugs.
[56:22.040 --> 56:29.020]  So these are drugs used for, let's say, diabetes or whatever that have been found to have, you know, a good effect for cancer patients.
[56:29.020 --> 56:31.560]  And they're what's called cancer agnostic treatments.
[56:31.780 --> 56:40.600]  So they sort of work for many types of cancer because, you know, we have to remember, you know, there are probably about 10,000 identified types of cancer now.
[56:40.600 --> 56:45.140]  If you talk to a geneticist, if you talk to your family doctor, they'll tell you a couple of hundred.
[56:45.320 --> 56:49.660]  If you talk to your cancer doctor, they might say 600 to 1,000.
[56:49.840 --> 56:51.980]  But the reality is far closer to 10,000.
[56:51.980 --> 56:58.820]  And so having cancer agnostic treatments that work well for all of these things, I think that that's where the big promise is.
[56:59.560 --> 57:04.180]  And it's important to realize that, you know, medicines themselves are very, very, very, very, very cheap.
[57:04.340 --> 57:08.180]  The cost is in the development and the cost is mainly in the failure.
[57:08.420 --> 57:11.820]  But the pills themselves, you know, a couple of cents for a pill.
[57:12.360 --> 57:23.460]  Carmen, I cannot express enough the admiration I think we're all feeling for you and facing this tremendous challenge with such dignity, grace, and optimism.
[57:23.460 --> 57:26.400]  And I think it's going to inspire an awful lot of people.
[57:27.280 --> 57:33.320]  One more time, can you please give out the URL so people can donate to your fund?
[57:33.740 --> 57:34.300]  Yes.
[57:34.340 --> 57:39.880]  And if people would like to donate or just to, you know, learn a bit more about it, that's karamoon.tech.
[57:39.900 --> 57:45.120]  That's K-A-R-A-M-O-O-N dot T-E-C-H.
[57:45.640 --> 57:54.900]  And then my cancer tips, or what I wish I had, you know, heard a year ago with my terminal diagnosis, that's cancer tips dot X, Y, Z.
[57:56.040 --> 57:56.620]  All right.
[57:56.860 --> 57:58.860]  Listen, we're going to talk with you in the future.
[57:58.860 --> 58:04.080]  We're going to basically make sure things are going as well as they possibly can go.
[58:04.280 --> 58:11.780]  And I think what you're going through, what you're doing, will be phenomenally important to so many people.
[58:11.820 --> 58:13.940]  And I hope for the best outcome for you.
[58:13.940 --> 58:15.560]  So, that's very kind of you.
[58:15.660 --> 58:16.120]  Thank you very much.
[58:16.220 --> 58:21.160]  And yeah, look forward to talk about lots of other more interesting things like hacker homeschooling.
[58:21.480 --> 58:24.080]  Yes, let's do that as well.
[58:24.260 --> 58:26.500]  And hopefully we'll see you over in Japan as well.
[58:28.320 --> 58:32.840]  That's Karamoon from Tokyo facing stage four cancer.
[58:34.440 --> 58:40.000]  And a grim prognosis, but using that hacker spirit to get through it as best as possible.
[58:40.900 --> 58:44.660]  And that's going to do it for us here tonight on the show.
[58:44.860 --> 58:51.420]  You can write to us, O-T-H at 2600.com with your comments, thoughts, things like that.
[58:51.760 --> 58:57.060]  We'll be back again next week with more news from the hacker world.
[58:57.060 --> 58:58.440]  Have a good night.
[59:27.270 --> 59:30.610]  We bought it to help with your homework.
[59:32.730 --> 59:36.090]  We bought it to help with your homework.
[59:36.670 --> 59:38.610]  And the household accounts.
[59:39.430 --> 59:42.890]  If your dad ever works it all out.
[59:43.670 --> 59:47.850]  Looters in the library, writing down the pipes and beats, copying an access code.
[59:48.110 --> 59:50.150]  Get a taste for home taping.
[59:50.150 --> 59:52.730]  Fetishist of map making.
[59:54.150 --> 59:55.690]  Rotten leads and rubber keys.
[59:55.870 --> 59:57.070]  Random run and local screens.
[59:57.190 --> 59:58.330]  And five minutes, fingers crossed.
[59:58.470 --> 01:00:00.470]  Hoping not to witness the terror.
[01:00:01.230 --> 01:00:03.250]  Of our type-loading error.
[01:00:05.420 --> 01:00:08.330]  We bought it to help with your homework.
[01:00:10.450 --> 01:00:13.830]  We bought it to help with your homework.
[01:00:14.410 --> 01:00:16.410]  And the household accounts.
[01:00:17.330 --> 01:00:20.730]  If your dad ever works it all out.
[01:00:21.310 --> 01:00:24.030]  ZX-Streetron 81, Dragon Vick and Oryk 1.
[01:00:24.210 --> 01:00:27.570]  Commodore 64, Amsterdam, don't they call it Electron?
[01:00:28.350 --> 01:00:30.290]  Cheaper BBC Micro.
[01:00:31.950 --> 01:00:33.430]  Jetster, Whitty, Slave and Wolf.
[01:00:33.570 --> 01:00:34.710]  Muzzle, Midnight and the World.
[01:00:34.810 --> 01:00:36.050]  Dots of Trans, Amount to Tuck.
[01:00:36.170 --> 01:00:38.270]  And of course, Manic Miner.
[01:00:38.850 --> 01:00:41.490]  The Hobbit, a nightlore and elite.
[01:00:42.510 --> 01:00:43.370]  The Hobbit, a nightlore and elite.
[01:00:43.370 --> 01:00:47.350]  It's made a generation who can cove.
[01:00:47.890 --> 01:00:50.770]  A bubble before proper consoles.
[01:00:51.390 --> 01:00:58.590]  Who will know that the games you get today, well, they might be very flashed.
[01:00:59.030 --> 01:01:03.810]  But they'll never beat the thrill of getting cruise yet packed.
[01:01:04.250 --> 01:01:06.800]  Oh, hey, hey, 16K.
[01:01:07.510 --> 01:01:09.790]  What does that get you today?
[01:01:09.790 --> 01:01:12.890]  You need more than that for a letter.
[01:01:13.190 --> 01:01:15.850]  Old school rampags on it's better.
[01:01:16.130 --> 01:01:17.970]  Personal computer games, your Sinclair.
[01:01:18.090 --> 01:01:20.030]  16K, Kingston, Competition, Probe.
[01:01:20.110 --> 01:01:21.330]  Fashion, Cursor, Kingston, Coe.
[01:01:21.370 --> 01:01:22.130]  The Dixons.
[01:01:22.490 --> 01:01:25.990]  I bought a Saturday staff with loops that don't end.
[01:01:27.230 --> 01:01:30.150]  We bought it to help with your homework.
[01:01:32.350 --> 01:01:35.610]  We bought it to help with your homework.
[01:01:35.610 --> 01:01:42.750]  And the household accounts, if your dad ever works it all out.
[01:01:43.350 --> 01:01:45.890]  Hey, hey, 16K.
[01:01:46.250 --> 01:01:48.510]  What does that get you today?
[01:01:48.870 --> 01:01:51.530]  You need more than that for a letter.
[01:01:51.930 --> 01:01:54.470]  Old school rampags on it's better.
[01:01:54.710 --> 01:01:57.090]  Hey, hey, 16K.
[01:01:57.390 --> 01:01:59.750]  What does that get you today?
[01:01:59.750 --> 01:02:02.830]  You need more than that for a letter.
[01:02:03.110 --> 01:02:05.830]  Old school rampags on it's better.
[01:02:08.070 --> 01:02:10.270]  For an equals nought to two.
[01:02:10.770 --> 01:02:13.650]  Those were the days next end.