[00:00.820 --> 00:05.620]  on Saturday night, October 21st, from 530 till 9.
[00:05.880 --> 00:18.720]  For ticket information, please go to www.citizensinc.org or call 347-626-7233, extension 3.
[00:19.000 --> 00:30.480]  Again, for ticket information, please go to www.citizensinc.org or call 347-626-7233.
[00:30.580 --> 00:32.260]  And don't forget extension 3.
[00:32.600 --> 00:34.900]  I'm David Rothenberg, and I hope to see you there.
[00:35.680 --> 00:38.820]  And you are listening to Radio Station WBAI New York.
[00:38.980 --> 00:39.960]  The time is 8 o'clock.
[00:40.260 --> 00:42.020]  It's time once again for Off the Hook.
[00:47.360 --> 00:51.760]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:52.780 --> 00:57.200]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:57.980 --> 01:00.060]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:02.650 --> 01:05.490]  But the best is back the worst.
[01:06.230 --> 01:07.990]  I hope that's understood.
[01:08.370 --> 01:09.010]  One day, we go!
[02:09.510 --> 02:11.230]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:11.330 --> 02:12.530]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:12.690 --> 02:15.770]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:16.510 --> 02:16.990]  Hello.
[02:17.570 --> 02:18.690]  And Alex.
[02:19.670 --> 02:21.070]  Wait a minute, why isn't your...
[02:21.070 --> 02:22.050]  Oh, this button wasn't pressed.
[02:22.130 --> 02:22.710]  Try that again, Alex.
[02:22.850 --> 02:23.890]  Well, good evening.
[02:24.170 --> 02:24.770]  Wow, nice.
[02:24.930 --> 02:26.490]  A little sabotage in the studio.
[02:27.250 --> 02:28.610]  Oh, all in good fun here.
[02:28.970 --> 02:32.350]  Yeah, we are being held at hostage by the Empire State Building.
[02:32.510 --> 02:35.530]  We're forced to broadcast from a place we don't want to be.
[02:37.210 --> 02:38.590]  But that's how life is.
[02:38.710 --> 02:44.750]  And that has forced us into our financial straits here at WBAI, where we have to raise a couple million bucks.
[02:45.730 --> 02:47.450]  Well, you know, it's life.
[02:47.710 --> 02:48.430]  It's the kind of thing that happens.
[02:48.430 --> 02:57.950]  We'd easily accept 100 renewing WBAI buddies, or 250 new WBAI buddies, or maybe like 500 renewing members.
[02:58.090 --> 02:58.370]  I don't know.
[02:58.790 --> 03:00.150]  500 new members.
[03:00.770 --> 03:06.590]  You know, what we really aim for is fewer fun drive days, because, well...
[03:06.590 --> 03:11.210]  Our aim's not that good, then, if we're aiming for that, because, boy, just...
[03:11.210 --> 03:19.090]  It's your calls that actually keep those days and weeks of fundraising as short and...
[03:19.090 --> 03:19.630]  That's true.
[03:19.850 --> 03:20.570]  ...painless as possible.
[03:20.570 --> 03:20.890]  That's true.
[03:21.030 --> 03:29.990]  If more people called in and pledged more, we'd have less days where we had to do this, even with these massive million-dollar debts that get thrown at us.
[03:31.070 --> 03:33.170]  Okay, well, let's take care of some business first.
[03:33.430 --> 03:38.950]  We have some things to talk about, but let's take care of some business, because we do have to raise funds for the station.
[03:39.070 --> 03:40.830]  This is our fundraiser, our autumn fundraiser.
[03:41.150 --> 03:42.710]  Always have an autumn fundraiser.
[03:42.850 --> 03:43.450]  That's tradition.
[03:44.190 --> 03:45.930]  Pick a number between one to six.
[03:46.530 --> 03:49.370]  Why don't you guys agree on numbers so that we don't have contesting numbers?
[03:50.190 --> 03:51.210]  Okay, what's the number?
[03:51.430 --> 03:52.590]  Are we supposed to tell you?
[03:52.870 --> 03:54.030]  Yeah, I'm asking.
[03:54.430 --> 03:55.610]  Obviously, you're supposed to tell me.
[03:55.750 --> 03:56.590]  Well, this is no fun.
[03:56.710 --> 03:56.850]  Three.
[03:57.090 --> 03:58.010]  I'm not trying to guess it.
[03:58.090 --> 03:58.510]  How about three?
[03:58.690 --> 03:58.910]  Three?
[03:58.910 --> 03:59.990]  Our number is three.
[04:00.170 --> 04:01.430]  Okay, so...
[04:01.430 --> 04:02.550]  I thought you were doing magic again.
[04:02.570 --> 04:02.670]  Three.
[04:02.790 --> 04:06.710]  Well, it is magic, because I'm going to play you something now that is...
[04:06.710 --> 04:08.510]  It can be said to be magic.
[04:09.330 --> 04:13.670]  This is an excerpt, and we will explain what it is as soon as we hear it.
[04:13.930 --> 04:15.190]  Oh, who are some of the other ones?
[04:15.310 --> 04:22.730]  News Corporation, owned by that noted progressive humanitarian Rupert Murdoch, who owns Fox.
[04:23.350 --> 04:30.090]  Their agenda certainly isn't to tell it like it is, let alone put interesting stuff on the air.
[04:30.450 --> 04:37.650]  You know, part of the way you get people to shut up and shop is to dumb down the news to help dumb down the people.
[04:37.990 --> 04:52.870]  Even in the late 80s, there were surveys pointing out, like from Fairness and Accuracy and Reporting, who everybody here should support and get to know, among others, that even then there had already been a 25% reduction in actual news on the news program.
[04:53.250 --> 04:59.070]  And now what you get is, good evening, here's the news, 20 minutes of O.J.
[04:59.190 --> 05:04.490]  Simpson, Monica Lewinsky, John Bonet Ramsey, or Princess Diana, or whatever.
[05:05.190 --> 05:07.570]  Then a quick shot to the instant cam.
[05:07.670 --> 05:13.190]  Well, yeah, there was some weird-ass car wreck here about four hours ago, but the street does seem to be empty now.
[05:13.390 --> 05:14.490]  Now back to you.
[05:14.690 --> 05:17.690]  Well, now word from our sponsor, then weather, then sports.
[05:18.710 --> 05:23.530]  And that, you know, it's basically, that's all the news you need to know.
[05:24.730 --> 05:38.750]  Dumbing down the people and deliberately keeping them that uninformed is rather anti-democratic, if you ask me, because people can't make informed decisions if they don't know what the hell's going on.
[05:39.650 --> 05:56.230]  And, I mean, it's basically a way of just keeping people asleep, so it's better, because it's, after all, for the corporate world order, it's better that we function as livestock instead of active and proactive thinkers.
[05:56.630 --> 06:10.010]  It's like in the old Soviet evil empire and communist China, the way you control the masses and make them livestock through advertising is basically fear of not keeping up with the state.
[06:10.690 --> 06:14.670]  We're here, and, you know, give them as little information as possible.
[06:15.070 --> 06:19.290]  Here, we bombard people with so much information.
[06:19.290 --> 06:22.630]  They don't necessarily know where to begin to sift through it all.
[06:22.830 --> 06:28.010]  And it's fear of not keeping up with the Joneses instead.
[06:28.970 --> 06:34.310]  And so it's sort of a modern lobotomy through fear, if you will.
[06:34.530 --> 06:36.810]  It's like, oh my God, what's wrong with me?
[06:36.810 --> 06:40.070]  I'm not making a million dollars as a dot-com executive.
[06:43.870 --> 06:46.270]  Yes, that... you know what that is, Alex?
[06:46.430 --> 06:49.690]  Yeah, that was obviously a young Sean Spicer.
[06:50.150 --> 06:50.490]  No.
[06:50.630 --> 06:51.210]  No, I knew it.
[06:51.210 --> 06:51.830]  No, you were incorrect.
[06:51.930 --> 06:52.110]  It was Jell-O.
[06:52.410 --> 06:58.070]  That was Jell-O be Offer speaking at our own HOPE conference back in the year, do you want to guess the year?
[06:58.470 --> 07:00.970]  Uh, mm, $2,000.
[07:01.230 --> 07:02.910]  That's right on the money, $2,000.
[07:03.050 --> 07:03.330]  Yeah, look at that.
[07:03.670 --> 07:06.170]  H2K was the name of our conference for, for hope, $2,000.
[07:06.450 --> 07:07.530]  Our third conference.
[07:07.910 --> 07:11.670]  And what that is, why we played that, it's one of our keynote addresses.
[07:11.810 --> 07:13.170]  Jell-O be Offer came to our conference.
[07:13.370 --> 07:16.550]  It was only our third conference back then, and gave the keynote address.
[07:16.690 --> 07:21.950]  A lot of people were scratching their heads saying, why do you have a punk rocker coming to give a keynote address at a hacker conference?
[07:22.550 --> 07:28.730]  And by the time he finished his talk and confessed that he didn't even own a computer, everybody got it.
[07:28.850 --> 07:30.830]  Everybody saw the significance, the relevance.
[07:31.070 --> 07:39.030]  And it kind of opened up the doors to embracing other cultures and sharing common experiences in the hacker community.
[07:39.250 --> 07:41.950]  And I think we just started growing from that point on.
[07:42.070 --> 07:44.810]  So that was a very significant year, very significant conference.
[07:45.190 --> 07:49.070]  So what we are offering tonight is all of that.
[07:49.230 --> 08:00.270]  Every single keynote address, plus a few extra talks that we have presented in all 11 conferences that we have held from the year 1994 until last year, 2016.
[08:01.130 --> 08:07.950]  And we are basically putting together video of all of those talks.
[08:08.470 --> 08:19.470]  And you can see them, learn from them, realize how significant something that was said 20 years ago is still significant today, maybe even more significant.
[08:19.470 --> 08:20.450]  Now we have a choice.
[08:20.610 --> 08:23.590]  You can get this on a flash drive, or you can get this on a DVD.
[08:23.630 --> 08:30.090]  It's the same either way, as far as what the pledge amount is, where we will send you this as a thank you gift.
[08:30.510 --> 08:32.170]  A $75 pledge.
[08:32.430 --> 08:49.970]  And you'll get a collection of keynote addresses and popular feature talks from all 11 Hackers on Planet Earth conferences held here in New York, featuring the likes of Edward Snowden, Steve Wozniak, Corey Doctorow, Kevin Mitnick, Jello Biafra, and many more.
[08:50.210 --> 08:56.210]  There are quite a few people that have given keynote and featured talks at our conferences over the years.
[08:56.330 --> 09:07.070]  So for a $75 pledge, you tell us whether you want the Hope Conference keynote series on a flash drive, or the Hope Conference keynote series on a DVD, or a bunch of DVDs, a whole bunch of DVDs.
[09:07.190 --> 09:10.890]  The number to call, 516-620-3602.
[09:11.270 --> 09:14.790]  And again, as we were mentioning at the beginning of the show, your calls count.
[09:14.950 --> 09:15.390]  They matter.
[09:15.530 --> 09:16.150]  They add up.
[09:16.370 --> 09:26.730]  So if a whole bunch of people call in and demand this, say that they want this, and pledge $75, you know, that will add up.
[09:26.950 --> 09:29.910]  10 people do that, $750 we've raised, which is significant.
[09:30.710 --> 09:32.370]  And the numbers just keep going up.
[09:32.450 --> 09:33.910]  And we are donating this to the station.
[09:33.910 --> 09:40.330]  We'll make as many DVDs or as many flash drives as are necessary to fulfill the orders.
[09:40.770 --> 09:41.610]  As simple as that.
[09:41.710 --> 09:48.250]  So if a thousand people call up and say they want DVDs or flash drives, we'll be committed to making a thousand of them.
[09:48.490 --> 09:49.190]  It'll hurt.
[09:49.350 --> 09:50.590]  It'll be painful, but we'll do it.
[09:51.050 --> 09:53.510]  516-620-3602.
[09:54.310 --> 09:56.850]  And this is something that we can guarantee.
[09:57.030 --> 10:00.150]  This is not something we'll have problems fulfilling because we don't have enough of them.
[10:00.270 --> 10:01.050]  We'll make more.
[10:01.190 --> 10:02.730]  We'll just make more DVDs.
[10:02.810 --> 10:03.770]  We'll make more flash drives.
[10:03.930 --> 10:08.950]  Another reason to pledge here would be to keep Emanuel and Kyle busy.
[10:09.450 --> 10:11.110]  Otherwise, you don't know what they're going to get up to.
[10:11.550 --> 10:13.710]  And they may very well find themselves in trouble.
[10:13.790 --> 10:14.110]  Well, yeah.
[10:14.350 --> 10:15.790]  Somebody has to supervise the robots.
[10:16.070 --> 10:16.570]  That's true.
[10:17.330 --> 10:20.390]  I'm not referring to our office staff in that.
[10:20.430 --> 10:21.510]  Let's make that clear now.
[10:21.650 --> 10:28.370]  When I say robots, because there was some contention about this, I'm not referring to you guys listening now.
[10:28.530 --> 10:28.730]  Okay.
[10:28.890 --> 10:31.230]  Referring to actual physical mechanical robots.
[10:31.490 --> 10:36.810]  If you keep up that talk, you may in fact, you know, be eligible for a cabinet position in the Trump administration.
[10:37.170 --> 10:42.310]  Well, sometimes you have to sort of make it clear because people, you know, all kinds of fake news.
[10:42.570 --> 10:42.990]  Well, sure.
[10:43.130 --> 10:49.990]  You know, Andy Pudzer, who was up for a Department of Labor nomination, actually praised the efficiency of robots over humans.
[10:50.230 --> 10:52.210]  Too bad we couldn't get some of them running the country then.
[10:52.410 --> 10:53.010]  I agree.
[10:53.290 --> 11:01.310]  I mean, the robot that makes our DVDs, I would trust that robot so much more than anybody in the executive office right now.
[11:01.370 --> 11:01.530]  Anybody.
[11:02.070 --> 11:03.150]  Than the angry chatbot that we have.
[11:03.290 --> 11:03.390]  Yeah.
[11:03.390 --> 11:10.790]  I would trust that robot to make decisions of life over death and all kinds of healthcare related things, financial decisions.
[11:11.170 --> 11:11.510]  Oh, yeah.
[11:11.770 --> 11:12.090]  Absolutely.
[11:12.670 --> 11:15.770]  But, you know, going back to these keynotes, they really are wonderful.
[11:16.430 --> 11:21.270]  And I'm glad that we picked three because Jello was just absolutely awesome.
[11:21.410 --> 11:23.410]  And then, remember, he came back at H2K2.
[11:24.230 --> 11:27.710]  It was sort of surprising everyone and gave an impromptu talk.
[11:27.870 --> 11:30.810]  He came back a few times and we're including those talks as well.
[11:30.970 --> 11:31.770]  So I'm glad you mentioned that.
[11:31.910 --> 11:32.010]  That's awesome.
[11:32.050 --> 11:33.430]  You don't get just one Jello talk.
[11:33.530 --> 11:34.010]  You get a few.
[11:34.250 --> 11:42.050]  You know, he came to my law school and I think it was 2003 and gave a talk that started probably around eight o'clock at night.
[11:42.190 --> 11:44.390]  And I don't think he ended until about one in the morning.
[11:44.530 --> 11:45.470]  And he wasn't even asked to come.
[11:45.530 --> 11:46.970]  He just showed up and started talking.
[11:47.090 --> 11:48.990]  It might well have been that way, actually.
[11:49.590 --> 11:50.630]  Just surprised me.
[11:50.650 --> 11:51.750]  It's the kind of guy Jello is.
[11:51.950 --> 11:52.070]  Yes.
[11:52.350 --> 11:56.530]  But yeah, and you say three because we have a random number.
[11:56.770 --> 11:58.970]  We have six of them that we brought with us tonight.
[11:58.970 --> 11:59.130]  Okay.
[11:59.470 --> 12:02.050]  But we have far more than that as far as number of talks.
[12:02.310 --> 12:05.810]  And three, which just happened to be where Jello, I guess it was the third conference.
[12:05.890 --> 12:07.970]  Who was the first keynote in 1994?
[12:08.270 --> 12:10.250]  The first keynote was Robert Steele.
[12:10.470 --> 12:10.970]  Okay, yeah.
[12:11.090 --> 12:11.810]  I remember that now.
[12:11.910 --> 12:12.090]  Yes.
[12:12.410 --> 12:12.770]  All right.
[12:13.130 --> 12:13.950]  That was a long time ago.
[12:14.250 --> 12:14.550]  Yes.
[12:14.870 --> 12:17.890]  Have we announced the details, like the name for our upcoming event?
[12:18.070 --> 12:20.650]  Because I was going to mention, this is a really, really good primer.
[12:20.910 --> 12:27.390]  If you've never been to a Hackers on Planet Earth event, this will give you a really good idea of what you can expect.
[12:27.610 --> 12:37.890]  And speaking of opening doors, this will get you ready to throw open the doors at our event coming up July 20th to the 22nd.
[12:38.110 --> 12:38.510]  Yes.
[12:38.630 --> 12:40.410]  Here in New York City.
[12:40.630 --> 12:41.750]  It is named.
[12:41.950 --> 12:43.070]  We do have a name for it.
[12:43.150 --> 12:43.830]  Can I say the name?
[12:43.890 --> 12:44.690]  You can say the name.
[12:44.690 --> 12:45.670]  Say it with pride.
[12:47.610 --> 12:48.310]  Wait, wait, wait.
[12:48.410 --> 12:48.810]  Okay, hold on.
[12:50.770 --> 12:52.390]  July 20th to the 22nd.
[12:52.390 --> 12:52.930]  That's the date.
[12:53.050 --> 12:53.630]  That's not the name.
[12:53.770 --> 12:54.290]  That's the date.
[12:54.650 --> 12:59.150]  Here in New York City at the illustrious Hotel Pennsylvania.
[12:59.470 --> 12:59.790]  That's right.
[12:59.950 --> 13:01.750]  Still standing, in fact, prospering.
[13:01.930 --> 13:03.230]  They might even add some more floors.
[13:03.830 --> 13:04.190]  Absolutely.
[13:04.410 --> 13:04.850]  Yeah, why not?
[13:05.050 --> 13:05.290]  Really?
[13:05.330 --> 13:11.730]  We will be throwing the much-anticipated circle of hope, a hacker's dozen.
[13:12.650 --> 13:12.930]  Yes.
[13:13.470 --> 13:15.290]  But let me just correct you on one thing.
[13:15.450 --> 13:17.190]  It's the circle of hope.
[13:17.490 --> 13:18.970]  You had the the... I said the.
[13:19.330 --> 13:20.270]  Okay, forget it.
[13:20.890 --> 13:21.710]  Let's move on.
[13:21.710 --> 13:23.610]  You put the the a few words before that.
[13:24.050 --> 13:27.570]  So you kind of... Yeah, but it's the official legal name, the circle of hope.
[13:27.850 --> 13:28.030]  Right.
[13:28.190 --> 13:28.590]  That's correct.
[13:28.770 --> 13:28.890]  Okay.
[13:29.010 --> 13:43.090]  So that is, yes, the circle of hope, a hacker's dozen will be something to look forward to with a lot of a lot of exciting news, a lot of real interesting talks, I'm sure.
[13:43.670 --> 13:46.570]  And... When you say a hacker's dozen, it's our 12th conference.
[13:46.690 --> 13:47.810]  That's what a hacker's dozen would mean.
[13:47.810 --> 13:48.290]  That's the connection.
[13:48.470 --> 13:48.650]  Yeah.
[13:48.930 --> 13:49.250]  Yeah.
[13:49.510 --> 13:50.910]  And we'll leave it at that.
[13:51.050 --> 13:51.210]  Okay.
[13:51.410 --> 13:53.290]  There's plenty for the imagination.
[13:54.290 --> 13:59.070]  And yeah, we'll be releasing more details as we... We're looking for graphic artists, too.
[13:59.290 --> 14:06.330]  People who might be able to draw up some artwork for what... We don't really know how to illustrate this yet.
[14:06.490 --> 14:09.950]  It always is something that we debate long into the night.
[14:10.090 --> 14:15.930]  But if people are out there with some ideas, some examples of things they've done, they want to get involved, email us.
[14:16.070 --> 14:17.490]  OTH at 2600.com.
[14:17.710 --> 14:18.090]  It's true.
[14:18.310 --> 14:44.570]  It's something we're always kind of looking for, but we really could use... We would love if you have the skills, if you have the ability to take a concept and work up some rough concepts or rough drafts and then allow a team of HOPE staff to evaluate it and you can take criticism and feedback,
[14:44.750 --> 14:45.430]  we'd love to work with you.
[14:45.710 --> 15:08.530]  There's lots of... And you have to enjoy working with other people, too, because HOPE is basically volunteer and people powered much in the same way that our radio station here, WBAI, is because, frankly, 2600, our little operation, our worldwide connections,
[15:09.050 --> 15:16.090]  it's really an undertaking to throw an event like HOPE when you have thousands and thousands of people.
[15:16.230 --> 15:17.390]  It's really magic.
[15:17.570 --> 15:21.470]  I can't believe... When you say it like that, I start thinking, well, no, I'm really going to do this again.
[15:21.510 --> 15:22.790]  I mean this in a positive way.
[15:23.070 --> 15:26.170]  No, it's something to be really... There are thousands of people showing up in Manhattan and...
[15:26.170 --> 15:29.970]  And the magic of it is... Just being in Manhattan is stressful enough.
[15:30.170 --> 15:39.690]  This community of individuals who maybe don't know one another officially or in the everyday sense and so on, they come together.
[15:39.910 --> 15:45.810]  They, without having a lot of pretense, work well, become a team and... Yeah, it's awesome.
[15:45.930 --> 15:46.050]  It's amazing.
[15:46.050 --> 15:53.430]  And we celebrate the hacker spirit, that hackers around the world share in their communities.
[15:53.450 --> 16:00.190]  And as one community here in New York, we share what we know, we teach, we learn, and that's what HOPE's about.
[16:00.190 --> 16:02.790]  And it's incredible to see the communities build.
[16:03.030 --> 16:06.890]  You alone, Kyle, were instrumental in getting our network... Oh, stop.
[16:07.190 --> 16:11.930]  Well, basically, it took us from a 300-baud modem to a 10-gig network.
[16:11.930 --> 16:12.870]  I had a vision.
[16:13.110 --> 16:23.910]  I had a lot of inspiration from our colleagues overseas and the wonderful worldwide group of operators, but...
[16:23.910 --> 16:25.490]  You have really good people working with you.
[16:25.610 --> 16:25.910]  I do.
[16:25.910 --> 16:27.930]  And just to see what everybody was able to put together.
[16:28.210 --> 16:28.490]  Yes.
[16:28.610 --> 16:33.530]  And we just kind of nonchalantly said, yeah, we've got European-style bandwidth now.
[16:33.810 --> 16:34.030]  Yes.
[16:34.030 --> 16:37.610]  And we can do all kinds of things, like stream the entire conference to the entire world.
[16:37.610 --> 16:38.570]  That was great.
[16:38.710 --> 16:42.470]  That increased our audience immensely.
[16:42.470 --> 16:44.610]  We can't fit all the people that want to come.
[16:44.830 --> 16:44.950]  Yeah.
[16:45.130 --> 16:47.070]  So this is a way to reach out.
[16:47.190 --> 16:49.730]  And it's something that not every conference does.
[16:49.990 --> 16:50.830]  In fact, very few do.
[16:51.030 --> 16:57.850]  I know CCC does this, where they basically stream everything so you can watch it if you can't make it there.
[16:57.930 --> 17:02.670]  And they encourage people not to come as well because they get really full in addition.
[17:02.670 --> 17:09.510]  They've got years ahead of us, and they've got long years and years prior to each event and camp.
[17:09.530 --> 17:11.650]  In Germany, you learn this in nursery school.
[17:11.770 --> 17:13.890]  They've almost permanent teams, I think.
[17:14.110 --> 17:18.930]  We are a little scrappier, but in a lot of ways, we've grown very, very quickly.
[17:19.190 --> 17:21.010]  We've been able to have these resources.
[17:21.270 --> 17:22.630]  And let me just put it out there.
[17:22.730 --> 17:29.030]  If you are an operator and you would love to donate an uplink to us, we would like...
[17:29.030 --> 17:29.130]  What's an operator?
[17:29.270 --> 17:29.590]  What do you mean?
[17:29.590 --> 17:40.850]  If you are an ISP of some kind and you have access to bandwidth and would like to put us in your loop, so to speak, we would love to talk to you because we have other capabilities.
[17:40.850 --> 17:50.630]  We'd love to grow even more and do fancy things like wave multiplexing and other sort of wonderful things we've seen overseas.
[17:50.930 --> 17:54.810]  If you're the government, though, or the NSA, yeah, don't bother.
[17:54.810 --> 17:55.150]  That's true, yeah.
[17:55.250 --> 18:04.850]  We're less interested if you're a spook or in that sort of industrial, government industrial sense.
[18:05.010 --> 18:07.030]  But that's not as important.
[18:07.250 --> 18:18.430]  What really is, this is about is the hacker spirit and building something really, really magical and demonstrating the sort of power of hacker ingenuity.
[18:18.550 --> 18:21.910]  Because like I said, these other things, yeah, they're all possible.
[18:22.170 --> 18:31.790]  We need resources and donations and people that are excited about building that kind of thing to do this stuff, to make that stuff possible.
[18:31.950 --> 18:35.430]  Because yeah, we come from all different places, all different backgrounds.
[18:35.430 --> 18:40.650]  We are a little scrappier, a little bit of less sort of trade show.
[18:41.110 --> 18:42.090]  You're focusing on that scrappiness.
[18:42.090 --> 18:56.950]  I guess we are kind of scrappy, but we come together with basically, you know, donations and volunteers to throw a really impressive event that's beautiful to look at and to experience.
[18:57.190 --> 18:57.870]  So please come.
[18:58.010 --> 18:58.750]  Come to Hope.
[18:58.770 --> 19:01.770]  It's that scrappy conference that takes place every couple of years in Manhattan.
[19:01.830 --> 19:03.110]  What's another word for scrappy?
[19:03.210 --> 19:05.270]  I think I'm warming up to it.
[19:05.270 --> 19:13.250]  I think, I think, well, we don't have, you know, permanent and official like organizations and all these things constantly.
[19:13.250 --> 19:14.470]  We're growing into that.
[19:14.570 --> 19:16.430]  You can't, you can't do these things too quickly.
[19:16.430 --> 19:22.710]  If you're like a radio station moving around and building a new space, these things take time.
[19:23.190 --> 19:24.370]  There's a lot of logistics.
[19:24.830 --> 19:34.950]  And, you know, every year we try to add to that and every event we try to add our capability and grow a little bit, but not, not so much that it's out of hand.
[19:35.210 --> 19:45.750]  Um, and you know, we may even may have some more rooms, you know, these kinds of little steps towards, um, accommodating our attendees is, is kind of what we're about.
[19:45.910 --> 19:48.610]  We want it to be that much better of an event every single year.
[19:48.690 --> 19:49.930]  And I really, we will have more space.
[19:50.070 --> 19:51.210]  We will definitely have more space.
[19:51.410 --> 19:51.870]  I believe it is.
[19:52.070 --> 19:54.010]  We've, we've outgrown the space that we have.
[19:54.130 --> 19:56.290]  So we have to, uh, you know, keep expanding.
[19:56.370 --> 19:59.110]  It's constantly evolving and really it's a lot of fun to do.
[19:59.230 --> 20:02.050]  But the circle of hope, July 20th or 22nd, 2018.
[20:02.230 --> 20:08.970]  And I can also say that next month we'll have our initial, um, uh, batch of tickets that go on sale.
[20:09.110 --> 20:09.930]  Very limited number.
[20:10.370 --> 20:13.570]  Uh, last time we did this, it sold out in less than a second.
[20:13.690 --> 20:14.110]  I'm not kidding.
[20:14.210 --> 20:14.890]  That really happened.
[20:15.390 --> 20:21.510]  Uh, and, um, the reason it's, it goes, well, it'll go quickly at the regular price, but this is actually a discounted price.
[20:21.910 --> 20:23.350]  Um, but, um, yeah.
[20:23.590 --> 20:24.770]  Uh, so that, that'll be next month.
[20:25.010 --> 20:26.430]  A lot to anticipate, a lot to look forward to.
[20:26.590 --> 20:31.070]  It's just a bit of fun and, um, and, and a way of, of, of making some down payments and things like that.
[20:31.290 --> 20:32.330]  So, uh, yeah.
[20:32.650 --> 20:33.130]  Uh, okay.
[20:33.210 --> 20:33.790]  So that's hope.
[20:33.950 --> 20:35.710]  Uh, I didn't really want to spend that much time on hope.
[20:35.790 --> 20:37.930]  And also we'll be opening up speaker submissions too.
[20:38.230 --> 20:39.330]  And, and, uh, in the, in the months ahead.
[20:39.490 --> 20:40.670]  It's my fault that it's relevant.
[20:40.830 --> 20:48.770]  These discs have, uh, a lot of, uh, our previous talks and, and that's, um, a great foreshadowing to what what's to come this summer.
[20:48.870 --> 20:50.110]  But let me give the number at one time.
[20:50.250 --> 20:52.170]  516-620-3602.
[20:52.350 --> 20:56.790]  Uh, ask for the hope conference keynote series and you'll, you'll get a taste of what hope is all about.
[20:56.890 --> 21:05.530]  If you've never actually been to one, have no intention of ever coming to one, or are coming to your first one next year, uh, it's 516-620-3602.
[21:05.670 --> 21:06.410]  $75 pledge.
[21:06.550 --> 21:07.590]  You'll get all the keynote addresses.
[21:07.730 --> 21:08.790]  I know Alex, you had something to say.
[21:09.110 --> 21:19.210]  Well, it was more on the subject of, uh, excuse me, of hope again, but it was sort of segwaying back to WBAI in that every hope there's, there's crises, something crazy happens.
[21:19.410 --> 21:24.690]  You know, things seem like they're about to fall apart at the last minute and, and be a complete disaster.
[21:24.910 --> 21:26.510]  We forgot where the hotel was last time.
[21:26.530 --> 21:27.450]  We forgot where the hotel was.
[21:27.690 --> 21:32.150]  I mean, remember this nonsense with fire marshals and all kinds of fun things.
[21:32.330 --> 21:32.610]  Oh yeah.
[21:32.790 --> 21:36.690]  I mean, when you have large crowds of people, things go haywire, right?
[21:36.870 --> 21:42.310]  But at the, at the same time, uh, it always, we always come together, but it always works out.
[21:42.350 --> 21:43.990]  There's always these crises and we get through it.
[21:44.170 --> 21:45.130]  We're really, really agile.
[21:45.290 --> 21:46.430]  We're also, we're flexible.
[21:46.710 --> 21:52.890]  We, um, when we, we, uh, we've got a lot of, uh, help in the space, uh, with the venue.
[21:53.070 --> 21:54.110]  They've, they've known us.
[21:54.230 --> 22:02.750]  I mean, we've been doing the event there and, and we've become very familiar with the, the facilities there and how best to use them for, uh, an event of our size.
[22:03.350 --> 22:05.230]  Uh, and we also helped to save it too.
[22:05.330 --> 22:05.970]  Don't forget that.
[22:06.070 --> 22:07.010]  That's a big deal.
[22:07.190 --> 22:10.090]  They wanted to tear down Hotel Penn 2008.
[22:11.370 --> 22:19.330]  And, um, you know, it's, it's interesting because the hacker community really came together, uh, because we, we love the place and we bring people from all around the world to come there.
[22:19.970 --> 22:25.050]  And people in New York city really didn't care that much about another building because they don't stay in hotels while they're in New York city.
[22:25.270 --> 22:33.570]  And, uh, to them, it was just an old building, but, uh, we saw the magic in it and eventually the people behind it and, and Vornado, they saw the magic of it as well.
[22:33.690 --> 22:35.450]  And they're, they're rebuilding it to their credit.
[22:35.890 --> 22:41.950]  Uh, and, um, and, and amazing events will take place there, not only us, but all kinds of other things take place at Hotel Pennsylvania.
[22:42.210 --> 22:45.450]  I'd like to give out the, uh, SMS donation number.
[22:45.450 --> 22:47.370]  It's 41444.
[22:47.870 --> 22:50.710]  Please just use the letters WBAI.
[22:50.910 --> 22:57.550]  So what you do is you get on your phone, you text to 41444 and you simply type in WBAI.
[22:57.670 --> 22:58.070]  Correct.
[22:58.350 --> 23:02.690]  Those, uh, call letters for our station, uh, will allow you to donate.
[23:02.690 --> 23:09.350]  You'll be, um, you'll get a response of some sort and, uh, and instructions on how to, how to actually donate.
[23:09.390 --> 23:10.790]  We did this a couple of weeks ago.
[23:11.010 --> 23:17.270]  Uh, we actually did the steps and, and, uh, and you do get contacted fairly quickly for that, but you can also go online.
[23:17.410 --> 23:22.990]  You can use a browser, www.give2wbai.org.
[23:23.190 --> 23:23.370]  Yes.
[23:23.430 --> 23:26.370]  You will see our, our Hope Conference keynote series there.
[23:26.750 --> 23:29.430]  You'll also see some other premiums there that we no longer have.
[23:29.430 --> 23:31.250]  We can't seem to get them taken off the website.
[23:31.530 --> 23:32.550]  Please don't pledge for those.
[23:32.630 --> 23:35.110]  We can't, we, that's an example of what we can't produce.
[23:35.570 --> 23:36.430]  These we can produce.
[23:36.570 --> 23:41.570]  That's why we're, we're, we're emphasizing this tonight because this is something that we definitely have.
[23:41.750 --> 23:47.810]  We definitely can get as many as we, as we need the Hope Conference keynote series on DVD or on flash drive.
[23:48.450 --> 23:49.970]  Hey, uh, let's pick another number.
[23:50.210 --> 23:51.190]  Uh, you picked three.
[23:51.590 --> 23:52.930]  Um, did you have something else first?
[23:53.030 --> 23:54.850]  We're gonna, we're gonna play another excerpt.
[23:55.030 --> 23:55.370]  You have something?
[23:55.570 --> 24:00.530]  Yeah, yeah, no, let's, uh, let's do that and, uh, maybe we'll, we'll get some updates and stuff, uh, later in the show.
[24:01.150 --> 24:02.650]  I pick five.
[24:03.090 --> 24:04.350]  You didn't even consult with Alex.
[24:04.510 --> 24:05.330]  You just, you just went ahead.
[24:05.570 --> 24:06.110]  He picked the first one.
[24:06.190 --> 24:09.010]  No, you guys consulted and agreed that it was going to be three.
[24:09.110 --> 24:09.430]  No, okay.
[24:09.490 --> 24:10.250]  He picked five.
[24:10.550 --> 24:13.230]  Alex, you'll pick the next one without consulting Kyle at all.
[24:13.370 --> 24:15.510]  He doesn't have to, it's my alpha came out.
[24:15.750 --> 24:16.310]  Just don't pick five again.
[24:16.310 --> 24:17.150]  It's fair to me.
[24:17.490 --> 24:17.770]  All right.
[24:18.810 --> 24:21.030]  We'll have to get the CD player to figure out how to play.
[24:21.130 --> 24:21.510]  No, I'm ready.
[24:21.630 --> 24:22.650]  Audio excerpt that I have.
[24:22.750 --> 24:23.310]  This would be great.
[24:23.530 --> 24:23.670]  Yeah.
[24:23.870 --> 24:29.010]  So, um, this is probably from the fifth hope because I think, I think what happened, I'm not even sure to be honest though.
[24:29.070 --> 24:34.690]  It might not be because we have, we have almost double the number of, uh, of conferences that we have selections of.
[24:35.010 --> 24:36.750]  So I don't know what this is going to be.
[24:36.910 --> 24:39.610]  We're going to play it and then we'll figure out what it is after we hear it.
[24:39.790 --> 24:44.510]  So, uh, again, 516-620-3602.
[24:44.670 --> 24:49.090]  Enjoy this excerpt from the hope conference keynote series.
[24:56.630 --> 24:58.610]  Everyone, a man who needs no introduction.
[24:58.930 --> 24:59.990]  Oh, it's warm Pepsi.
[25:00.490 --> 25:00.990]  Is it?
[25:01.290 --> 25:02.290]  It seems to be.
[25:02.370 --> 25:03.510]  Is there any ice available?
[25:03.830 --> 25:04.230]  We'll fix it.
[25:05.350 --> 25:06.750]  Ladies and gentlemen, RMS.
[25:17.600 --> 25:19.580]  Why are you turning those lights on?
[25:19.680 --> 25:21.080]  It's too hot in here already.
[25:23.240 --> 25:25.420]  So turn them down, okay?
[25:26.100 --> 25:29.560]  You don't have to shine lights in my face to make me talk.
[25:33.290 --> 25:36.890]  Down, down, down, down, down, down.
[25:37.210 --> 25:41.490]  Now, a little more light in the audience would be good so that I don't fall asleep.
[25:44.110 --> 25:46.590]  You, you're, it's okay if you sleep.
[25:47.070 --> 25:50.410]  No, you won't make a bunch of people unhappy if you do.
[25:51.370 --> 25:53.210]  But I shouldn't sleep here.
[25:54.570 --> 26:01.510]  Anyway, we apologize for this delay due to late arrival of equipment.
[26:02.770 --> 26:10.850]  And we expect to get you moving shortly and wish you a pleasant listen on the way to the end of the speech or wherever your final destination may be.
[26:14.790 --> 26:18.490]  So I'm going to talk about free software and the hacker community.
[26:19.610 --> 26:27.550]  First of all, I'd better explain what free software means since probably even a lot of you have not heard what it means.
[26:28.010 --> 26:31.950]  Free software means software that respects the user's freedom.
[26:33.190 --> 26:41.530]  There are four essential freedoms for the user of software, freedoms that every software user should always have.
[26:41.950 --> 26:46.190]  And these four freedoms make the definition of free software.
[26:47.590 --> 26:52.450]  Freedom zero is the freedom to run the program as you wish for any purpose.
[26:53.450 --> 27:00.290]  Freedom one is the freedom to study the source code and change it so that the program does what you wish.
[27:01.070 --> 27:04.610]  Freedom two is the freedom to help your neighbor.
[27:04.870 --> 27:10.410]  That's the freedom to make copies and distribute them to others, including publication.
[27:11.350 --> 27:23.610]  And freedom three is the freedom to contribute And that's the freedom to distribute your modified versions, including publication, when you wish.
[27:24.510 --> 27:26.290]  None of these is an obligation.
[27:26.290 --> 27:31.510]  You're never required to do any of these things, but the point is you're free to do them if you wish.
[27:32.290 --> 27:39.870]  And that means the software respects your freedom and respects the social solidarity of your community.
[27:41.570 --> 27:51.010]  If you use a program that doesn't give you freedom number two, you're in danger of falling into a moral dilemma at any moment.
[27:51.350 --> 27:55.310]  When your friend says, could I have a copy of that program?
[27:56.110 --> 28:01.090]  At that moment, you will be forced to choose between two evils.
[28:01.790 --> 28:06.870]  One evil is to give your friend a copy and violate the license of the program.
[28:06.870 --> 28:12.690]  The other evil is to deny your friend a copy and comply with the license of the program.
[28:13.370 --> 28:21.550]  Now, once you're in the dilemma, you should choose the lesser evil, which is to give your friend a copy and violate the license of the program.
[28:27.830 --> 28:34.930]  This is the lesser evil because it's directed at somebody who has done wrong.
[28:34.930 --> 28:42.870]  We can suppose that your friend is a good friend, a helpful person, and ordinarily would deserve your cooperation.
[28:44.830 --> 28:52.590]  Whereas the developer of a proprietary program has deliberately attacked the social solidarity of your community.
[28:52.810 --> 28:54.030]  Now, that's wrong.
[28:54.470 --> 29:01.430]  So, if you can't help doing wrong to somebody, better it should be a wrongdoer that you do it to.
[29:03.230 --> 29:06.450]  However, to be the lesser evil does not mean it's good.
[29:06.850 --> 29:10.070]  It's never good to make an agreement and not keep it.
[29:10.290 --> 29:16.390]  Now, it may be less bad than keeping the agreement, depending on what you agreed to do.
[29:17.230 --> 29:18.850]  But it's never good.
[29:18.850 --> 29:30.170]  And an unauthorized copy of a non-free program shares most of the ethical ills of an authorized copy.
[29:30.310 --> 29:34.350]  The only one it doesn't share is that of rewarding the perpetrator.
[29:38.030 --> 29:45.410]  So, what you should really do, once you have understood this dilemma, is make sure you're never in it.
[29:46.290 --> 29:51.670]  Don't set foot on the path that's going to lead you someday to that dilemma.
[29:52.710 --> 29:54.630]  And there are two ways to avoid it.
[29:54.790 --> 29:56.650]  One is, don't have any friends.
[29:58.510 --> 30:02.730]  That's the method suggested by the proprietary software developers.
[30:03.530 --> 30:06.670]  And the other method is, don't use proprietary software.
[30:07.450 --> 30:09.110]  That's the method I prefer.
[30:09.610 --> 30:17.550]  That way, I don't have to worry about a moral dilemma if someone asks for a copy of a program I've got on my computer.
[30:18.350 --> 30:21.290]  Because I will only accept free software onto it.
[30:21.470 --> 30:30.570]  If someone offers me an attractive, convenient program on the condition that I promise not to share it with you, I will say no.
[30:30.850 --> 30:32.970]  Because that's the right thing to do.
[30:33.250 --> 30:43.670]  And I would rather forego the convenience and fun of that program, than put myself in a situation where I'd be ashamed of what I had done.
[30:49.310 --> 30:50.210]  Thank you.
[30:56.080 --> 31:03.360]  But just being free to share does not mean that you're in control of your own computer.
[31:04.120 --> 31:06.340]  For that, you need freedom number one.
[31:06.480 --> 31:09.240]  You need to be able to study the program and change it.
[31:10.520 --> 31:14.520]  That's what enables you to decide what your computer does.
[31:14.520 --> 31:24.740]  If you use a program that doesn't give you freedom number one, the freedom to study the source code and change it, then the developer controls what you can do.
[31:24.940 --> 31:27.840]  And you are under the developer's power.
[31:28.640 --> 31:29.940]  This is unjust.
[31:29.940 --> 31:35.520]  This is an unjust system of subjugation.
[31:41.490 --> 31:46.990]  If you don't have freedom number one, you can't even tell for certain what the program does.
[31:47.470 --> 31:50.810]  Lots of proprietary programs have malicious features.
[31:50.810 --> 32:04.250]  Because once the developer is in a position of power, the developer faces the temptation to go one step further and start using that power specifically to mistreat others.
[32:05.490 --> 32:13.530]  So they put in spy features and features designed to restrict the user and even back doors.
[32:15.630 --> 32:17.890]  Now, spyware is quite common.
[32:18.450 --> 32:24.870]  One proprietary program that you might have heard of that spies on the user is called Windows XP.
[32:32.850 --> 32:49.110]  When the user of Windows XP, and I won't say you because I'm sure you wouldn't use a program like this, when the user of Windows XP searches her own files for a word, it sends a message saying what word was searched for.
[32:49.350 --> 32:50.550]  That's one spy feature.
[32:50.890 --> 32:53.070]  But there's another that we know of.
[32:53.370 --> 33:00.770]  When Windows XP asks for an upgrade, it sends Microsoft a list of all the software installed on the machine.
[33:03.600 --> 33:07.700]  Now, these spy features were not announced by Microsoft.
[33:07.700 --> 33:13.980]  People had to discover them through investigation, which was not always easy.
[33:15.940 --> 33:18.420]  There may be others which we don't know about.
[33:19.460 --> 33:22.340]  But spying is not limited to Windows.
[33:22.720 --> 33:25.560]  Windows Media Player also spies on the user.
[33:25.760 --> 33:27.600]  It reports everything the user looks at.
[33:27.840 --> 33:29.100]  Total surveillance.
[33:29.940 --> 33:37.240]  But please don't think that this is something that only Microsoft, the great Satan, would do.
[33:37.720 --> 33:42.720]  Because in fact, RealPlayer was the first such program to do this kind of spying.
[33:43.080 --> 33:44.360]  Total surveillance.
[33:44.600 --> 33:46.160]  Reporting everything the user looks at.
[33:46.340 --> 33:48.960]  And all Microsoft did was imitate them.
[33:53.290 --> 33:55.390]  Lots of companies spy on the user.
[33:55.550 --> 33:59.130]  And interestingly, the TiVo spies on the user in the same way.
[33:59.130 --> 34:01.910]  Reporting everything the user looks at.
[34:02.310 --> 34:07.990]  Now, this is particularly interesting because the TiVo uses a lot of free software.
[34:08.270 --> 34:11.390]  It has a small GNU plus Linux operating system in it.
[34:12.530 --> 34:19.090]  And when it was first released, a lot of people in our community applauded it for using free software.
[34:19.090 --> 34:21.710]  But it also contains non-free software.
[34:21.810 --> 34:27.430]  And it has malicious features like spying on the user and digital restrictions management.
[34:27.830 --> 34:40.570]  And this shows that to use free software, which implicitly means to use some free software some of the time, is not a sufficient target.
[34:40.570 --> 34:48.950]  The target has to be to use only software that respects your freedom so that you have full freedom.
[34:50.010 --> 34:51.930]  Anything less is insufficient.
[34:52.970 --> 34:59.370]  And the TiVo is also an example of another malicious practice that I'll talk about later.
[35:02.310 --> 35:06.050]  But malicious features go beyond spying on the user.
[35:06.450 --> 35:09.510]  There's also the functionality of refusing to function.
[35:12.410 --> 35:16.630]  Where the program says, I don't want to show you this file.
[35:17.050 --> 35:20.150]  I don't want to let you copy part of this file.
[35:20.150 --> 35:25.350]  I'm not going to print this file for you because I don't like you enough.
[35:27.710 --> 35:34.450]  This is DRM, digital restrictions management, or digital handcuffs.
[35:34.970 --> 35:42.570]  Where the program is designed specifically to restrict you for the sake of someone else.
[35:43.870 --> 35:48.530]  It becomes a simple instrument of someone else's power over you.
[35:50.190 --> 35:53.150]  And then there are back doors.
[35:53.970 --> 36:02.870]  There was a proprietary program called Interbase, which was liberated, and then the users could see that it contained a back door.
[36:03.410 --> 36:04.710]  And they could fix it.
[36:05.550 --> 36:10.990]  Presumably it had the same back door when it was proprietary, but the users couldn't see it or fix it.
[36:12.490 --> 36:19.130]  Another proprietary program that has a back door that you may have heard of is called Windows XP.
[36:20.130 --> 36:32.850]  You see, when Windows XP asks for an upgrade, Microsoft can identify the user, which means that they can deliver that user an upgrade designed specifically for him.
[36:33.050 --> 36:41.030]  They can take total control of that person's machine in any way they want, and that user has very little recourse.
[36:42.510 --> 36:47.170]  So, we know about this back door because we can deduce it from known facts.
[36:47.390 --> 36:49.650]  But there might be others.
[36:50.890 --> 36:58.170]  Microsoft was caught in 1999 having put a back door in a piece of server software for the NSA.
[36:59.010 --> 37:04.170]  And there might be back doors introduced by others that Microsoft doesn't know about.
[37:04.450 --> 37:18.570]  For instance, some programmers in India working on the development of Windows XP were arrested and accused of working for Al Qaeda, trying to introduce another back door that Microsoft wasn't supposed to know about.
[37:19.350 --> 37:21.650]  Well, apparently that attempt failed.
[37:22.710 --> 37:25.030]  Was there another attempt that succeeded?
[37:25.710 --> 37:27.150]  We can't tell.
[37:29.770 --> 37:36.890]  Now, there are various kinds of malicious features that proprietary software developers can put in.
[37:37.370 --> 37:40.410]  But not all of them do so.
[37:40.690 --> 37:42.110]  Some do and some don't.
[37:42.650 --> 37:45.890]  Of course, you can't necessarily tell which is which.
[37:45.890 --> 37:52.270]  So, the result is that all proprietary software is just trust me software.
[37:53.730 --> 38:01.210]  Where you surrender to a blind faith in a developer which you know might not deserve it.
[38:02.630 --> 38:05.830]  But what are the ones that don't put in malicious features?
[38:06.370 --> 38:10.350]  Well, they may be honest, but they're still human.
[38:10.350 --> 38:11.550]  So, they make mistakes.
[38:11.910 --> 38:14.090]  And that means that their code has bugs.
[38:15.570 --> 38:31.330]  And the user of a program without freedom number one, the freedom to study and change the source code, is just as helpless confronting an unintended error in the code as she is confronting a deliberate misfeature.
[38:34.270 --> 38:39.170]  The user of a non-free program is a prisoner of his software.
[38:41.610 --> 38:45.890]  Now, we, the developers of free software, are also human.
[38:45.890 --> 38:48.430]  So, our code has errors too.
[38:48.750 --> 38:51.110]  Every non-trivial program has bugs.
[38:51.390 --> 38:54.370]  The difference is that we respect your freedom.
[38:55.030 --> 38:58.770]  So, when you find errors in our code, you can fix them.
[39:00.230 --> 39:02.430]  We can't make ourselves perfect.
[39:02.430 --> 39:05.470]  We can treat you decently.
[39:11.510 --> 39:14.770]  Okay, we have to stop there because I could listen to this all night long.
[39:14.770 --> 39:19.350]  That's Richard Stallman giving a keynote address at hope number six.
[39:19.690 --> 39:22.670]  Eleven years ago, 2006, we had that conference.
[39:22.670 --> 39:24.410]  And I remember that.
[39:24.450 --> 39:26.070]  I remember that talk.
[39:26.070 --> 39:28.330]  It was a thunderstorm going on outside.
[39:28.330 --> 39:30.110]  He was on the top floor of the Hotel Pennsylvania.
[39:30.630 --> 39:34.650]  And basically, the entire crowd hung on his every word.
[39:34.850 --> 39:38.950]  And you even get to see the complaints about warm Pepsi at the beginning of this talk.
[39:39.130 --> 39:41.850]  That's all for a pledge of $75.
[39:41.870 --> 39:50.610]  You'll get this talk plus all the other hope keynote addresses that have been given since 1994, in addition to some other feature talks as well.
[39:51.610 --> 39:53.790]  516-620-3602.
[39:53.930 --> 39:57.510]  Just ask for the Hope Conference keynote series, either on DVD or flash drive.
[39:57.870 --> 40:01.490]  You can also go to give2wbai.org and grab it there.
[40:01.950 --> 40:03.850]  But wow, the memories.
[40:04.010 --> 40:06.750]  I know, Kyle, you were in the audience watching that talk.
[40:06.950 --> 40:07.550]  I was.
[40:07.770 --> 40:15.390]  Yeah, that actually was my very, very first hacker conference of any sort, ever.
[40:15.530 --> 40:16.610]  It was amazing for me.
[40:16.830 --> 40:20.510]  Really, I'm kind of blown away that it was 11 years ago.
[40:20.610 --> 40:21.610]  But yeah, it feels like yesterday.
[40:21.830 --> 40:23.550]  I think it was Mitch Altman's first hacker conference too.
[40:23.830 --> 40:24.390]  It's true.
[40:24.450 --> 40:24.650]  Yeah.
[40:25.150 --> 40:25.890]  That's very true.
[40:26.010 --> 40:26.810]  He said that he got his start at Hope.
[40:26.870 --> 40:35.730]  And that's just amazing to even realize that so many people who went on to do incredible things in the hacker world got their start at one of our conferences.
[40:35.730 --> 40:36.250]  Yeah.
[40:36.370 --> 40:41.630]  And there were a lot of hackers and people responsible for getting us involved and welcoming us.
[40:41.790 --> 40:50.930]  And we do that to this day, I think, at each and every one of our events, bring in new people and teach and learn with them.
[40:51.090 --> 40:53.690]  And that's kind of what the show does as well.
[40:53.830 --> 40:58.910]  We reach out to people all throughout the world, have kind of a time capsule that stays forever.
[40:58.910 --> 41:04.630]  Do you know we were 29 years ago pretty much this week was when we first started off the hook?
[41:05.010 --> 41:06.130]  Airing the show, yeah.
[41:06.230 --> 41:06.430]  Wow.
[41:06.430 --> 41:07.430]  29 years ago.
[41:07.610 --> 41:08.070]  Wow.
[41:08.670 --> 41:10.650]  And I think we're finally hitting our stride.
[41:11.010 --> 41:13.570]  We're sort of getting used to it.
[41:13.770 --> 41:20.730]  So hopefully we'll have more shows on a transmitter that isn't torn apart by the Empire State Building.
[41:21.710 --> 41:30.190]  But you can help ensure that future by giving a call to 516-620-3602 and pledging anything you can afford, actually.
[41:30.610 --> 41:41.190]  The $75 pledge for the whole keynote series is a suggestion, but you can pledge less, you can pledge more, and you can pledge any time, day or night.
[41:41.430 --> 41:47.050]  But the important thing is to make that call, to make that pledge, 516-620-3602.
[41:47.630 --> 41:50.410]  I think you're absolutely right about Richard Stallman, too.
[41:50.490 --> 41:51.730]  Those words were really timeless.
[41:52.010 --> 41:53.190]  They're still relevant today.
[41:53.530 --> 41:55.110]  There's so much going on there.
[41:55.270 --> 41:56.210]  And you're right.
[41:56.310 --> 41:58.370]  I mean, so many people got their start over at Hope.
[41:58.490 --> 42:00.170]  I was at the first one in 1994.
[42:00.230 --> 42:03.350]  I think I was 15 years old when we went there.
[42:03.450 --> 42:11.130]  And it's so important for your formative years, I think, as you're growing up, to be exposed to that thing, to have that opportunity.
[42:11.610 --> 42:14.450]  And it was around the same time that I got exposed to WBAI.
[42:14.450 --> 42:16.970]  So the two really go hand in hand.
[42:17.650 --> 42:18.870]  And they always have.
[42:18.870 --> 42:20.330]  And I really hope that they always will.
[42:20.570 --> 42:27.270]  And you can make sure that they always do by pledging and calling 516-620-3602.
[42:29.010 --> 42:30.890]  516-620-3602.
[42:31.050 --> 42:34.090]  Let me do that with a full breath in my lungs this time.
[42:34.530 --> 42:35.610]  I try to do that.
[42:35.730 --> 42:36.510]  I keep trying to breathe.
[42:36.710 --> 42:37.350]  Sometimes I forget.
[42:37.650 --> 42:38.990]  It's hard for a lot of us to breathe.
[42:39.270 --> 42:40.030]  In fact, let me...
[42:40.030 --> 42:42.110]  My breath got taken away just a couple of minutes ago.
[42:42.110 --> 42:50.470]  We're talking about, you know, freedom of speech, and we're talking about broadcasting, non-commercial radio, and all the things that we discuss over the years.
[42:50.870 --> 42:55.050]  And while this is all going on, while having this conversation, Donald Trump is tweeting this.
[42:55.130 --> 42:55.790]  This just came over.
[42:56.070 --> 43:01.990]  Network news has become so partisan, distorted, and fake that licenses must be challenged, and if appropriate, revoked.
[43:01.990 --> 43:03.270]  Not fair to public.
[43:03.470 --> 43:05.150]  He tweeted something similar earlier today.
[43:05.190 --> 43:07.810]  But this just came through a few minutes ago.
[43:08.230 --> 43:17.530]  And this is what we are dealing with right now in Washington, D.C., somebody who wants to take away licenses for broadcasters who say things that he doesn't like.
[43:17.930 --> 43:18.790]  And this is...
[43:18.790 --> 43:28.710]  You know, you may have thought we were being paranoid, exaggerating things a little bit over the past few months, and in the months leading up to the election, certainly.
[43:29.510 --> 43:30.650]  I don't think we were.
[43:30.650 --> 43:38.110]  I think he's starting to come into his own as far as getting what he wants or putting forth what it is he really wants.
[43:38.470 --> 43:39.870]  And just think about this.
[43:40.050 --> 43:53.110]  You know, if because of a report that's critical of him, he's able to successfully take away the licenses of a broadcaster, we are no better than some dictatorship where people live in fear.
[43:53.490 --> 43:59.670]  And believe me, we are going one step closer to that almost every day, it seems, by the things that he's saying.
[43:59.670 --> 44:11.430]  Now, it's up to us whether or not any of this actually happens, but, you know, I'm disturbed by the number of people who buy into it or refuse to criticize or think that somehow it won't affect them.
[44:11.530 --> 44:12.610]  It always does.
[44:12.930 --> 44:13.970]  It always does.
[44:14.190 --> 44:16.850]  And history is filled with examples of this.
[44:17.090 --> 44:19.390]  I mean, you're very much right about that.
[44:19.470 --> 44:24.490]  And it's not just the Twitterer-in-chief that's dealing with this, but, you know, it's his minions as well.
[44:24.670 --> 44:40.390]  You know, we were talking before the show about the DreamHost issue, and there was an update on that particular case where there was a subpoena issued to DreamHost for the activities of certain people who were on a website organizing against the...
[44:40.390 --> 44:43.110]  organizing with respect to the inauguration.
[44:43.110 --> 44:47.850]  And that subpoena was majorly, overly broad.
[44:48.070 --> 44:48.310]  Mm-hmm.
[44:48.530 --> 44:54.250]  And yesterday, it was found to be much...
[44:54.250 --> 44:59.650]  Well, a judge had very much narrowed this, if I'm speaking correctly about this, Kyle.
[44:59.830 --> 44:59.890]  Yeah.
[45:00.370 --> 45:01.290]  I've got it right here.
[45:01.470 --> 45:05.210]  It's for this website, disrupttj20.org.
[45:05.210 --> 45:11.830]  And anyway, the statement, or the thing that was issued, it's called a revised order.
[45:11.950 --> 45:13.610]  I'm sure that makes a little bit more sense to you.
[45:13.950 --> 45:15.570]  And it was sent to DOJ.
[45:15.570 --> 45:16.270]  Because this was appealed.
[45:16.630 --> 45:17.010]  That's right.
[45:17.090 --> 45:17.410]  Got it.
[45:17.490 --> 45:17.650]  Yeah.
[45:17.870 --> 45:19.910]  And it was Chief Judge Robert E.
[45:20.050 --> 45:31.650]  Morin issued this revised order, essentially saying that, you know what, DreamHosts, you're not obligated to comply with anything like this.
[45:31.650 --> 45:42.110]  And in fact, it's on them to protect the users of this domain's identities or otherwise identifiable information.
[45:42.430 --> 45:43.610]  Let me just have this straight.
[45:43.870 --> 45:52.090]  The Trump administration wants personal identification on people who went to a website to organize a protest against him.
[45:52.170 --> 45:53.850]  It was an anti-Trump protest website.
[45:53.970 --> 45:54.150]  Yes.
[45:54.470 --> 45:54.790]  That's right.
[45:54.910 --> 45:56.010]  You realize how scary that is?
[45:56.420 --> 45:56.810]  Well, yes.
[45:56.810 --> 45:58.650]  Let's appreciate that for a moment.
[45:59.510 --> 46:05.790]  You basically participate in something that you have the right to do under the Constitution, and they want names and addresses.
[46:06.110 --> 46:07.010]  They want to know anyway.
[46:07.690 --> 46:08.030]  Wow.
[46:08.370 --> 46:08.650]  Yes.
[46:08.830 --> 46:14.030]  I mean, look, it's a tricky thing, you know, frankly, because it's hard to be fair.
[46:14.210 --> 46:16.550]  Let's balance this out with a little bit of a law enforcement perspective.
[46:16.550 --> 46:25.510]  It's hard to draft a subpoena that balances things like civil right and investigative purposes when you don't necessarily know who your target is.
[46:25.730 --> 46:28.950]  But there are ways to do it that are a little bit more respectful of the first amendment.
[46:28.950 --> 46:30.590]  But wait, why is anybody being targeted in the first place?
[46:30.690 --> 46:31.550]  There was a demonstration.
[46:31.550 --> 46:32.710]  Yeah, some people got out of hand.
[46:32.810 --> 46:33.950]  Maybe a couple of windows got broken.
[46:34.250 --> 46:34.910]  So what?
[46:34.910 --> 46:35.530]  It happens.
[46:35.530 --> 46:36.050]  Yes.
[46:36.350 --> 46:38.910]  Why in God's name are they still even talking about this?
[46:39.050 --> 46:44.050]  The theory of this is that people were inciting a riot, and they used that particular domain name.
[46:44.050 --> 46:45.530]  Trump has incited riots.
[46:45.790 --> 46:48.530]  This whole administration is one big incendiary device.
[46:48.830 --> 46:50.250]  There's a fair point there.
[46:51.010 --> 46:59.390]  But the problem is that this administration, and this is the point I was trying to make and segueing to this particular case, is that it's not only Trump, okay?
[46:59.550 --> 47:00.650]  It's his minions.
[47:00.850 --> 47:04.990]  It's the Department of Justice that seem to have no respect for the first amendment.
[47:05.230 --> 47:07.270]  No respect for our freedom of assembly.
[47:07.390 --> 47:08.950]  No respect for our freedom of speech.
[47:09.150 --> 47:13.090]  No respect for the place that dissent holds in this republic.
[47:13.130 --> 47:16.970]  And it's a very important place in establishing this republic.
[47:18.070 --> 47:20.090]  That's a really, really dangerous thing.
[47:20.230 --> 47:20.490]  Mm-hmm.
[47:20.490 --> 47:22.590]  That's something that we need to fight back against.
[47:22.630 --> 47:25.850]  That's why stations like WBAI exist.
[47:25.890 --> 47:27.850]  We are here as a bulwark.
[47:28.070 --> 47:37.970]  Well, I mean, can you imagine, if he wants to go after NBC for the reports they're doing about him, what he would want to do to a station like WBAI?
[47:38.090 --> 47:44.090]  If you listen to the things that we say about Trump, you know, unless he believes we're not relevant at all.
[47:44.090 --> 47:47.370]  Unless he thinks that nobody listens to us, and that's up to the listeners.
[47:47.530 --> 47:51.390]  You know, if you guys listen and you speak out, we become more dangerous.
[47:51.390 --> 47:55.070]  But I think being more dangerous in this context is a good thing.
[47:55.210 --> 48:07.950]  Well, look, what's very interesting about radio, and it's also why, you know, shortwave radio is often used to broadcast via number stations, let's say, you know, instructions to intelligence operatives in the field, because nobody knows who's listening to a station.
[48:07.950 --> 48:11.870]  When you go to a website and you get your news from a website, you leave some breadcrumbs behind.
[48:12.150 --> 48:13.610]  You don't do that with radio.
[48:13.770 --> 48:17.130]  You can get your information anonymously through the airwaves.
[48:17.250 --> 48:33.570]  The problem with this particular website is that anybody who ever accessed it was going to be reached by the subpoena, and that's why the judge narrowly or revised this to be much more narrow and required the anonymization of PII or personally identifying information.
[48:33.570 --> 48:48.370]  That's really important to see that a judge was pushing back on First Amendment grounds rather than relying on things like the third party doctrine that would allow them to just willy-nilly request the records that were being held in the possession of a third party,
[48:48.470 --> 48:49.210]  namely a website.
[48:49.750 --> 48:51.430]  WBAI holds no records.
[48:51.590 --> 48:52.970]  Radio stations hold no records.
[48:53.170 --> 48:58.790]  They are arguably more important because they preserve anonymity absolutely.
[48:58.790 --> 49:03.470]  It's something to think about with respect to radio and its place in society.
[49:03.670 --> 49:27.390]  That combined with transparency in the Pacifica and WBAI ownership scheme, the fact that we're not airing commercials, we do not have investors, people, boards looming over us telling us what we can say and what truth we can speak, you can help support that right now,
[49:27.590 --> 49:37.990]  www.give2wbai.org, or use SMS 41444.
[49:39.110 --> 49:41.490]  Just type WBAI.
[49:42.370 --> 49:45.910]  Again, you can SMS 41444.
[49:47.210 --> 49:53.930]  WBAI is all you have to type, our call letters, and you'll be prompted and there will be instructions on how you can contribute.
[49:54.450 --> 49:59.710]  Or you can call 516-620-3602 and pledge whatever you can afford.
[50:00.190 --> 50:04.510]  We suggest getting the HOPE keynote conference series.
[50:04.950 --> 50:07.270]  HOPE conference keynote series is what I mean to say.
[50:07.470 --> 50:13.230]  But, Alex, I really liked what you were saying about radio and just ways of communication.
[50:13.370 --> 50:15.430]  Because radio is very subversive when you think about it.
[50:15.550 --> 50:22.370]  When you look at any kind of a coup that's taking place or any kind of uprising, it's always the broadcasters they go for first.
[50:22.370 --> 50:23.110]  That's true.
[50:23.270 --> 50:30.210]  And you have a situation here now where this guy is already in power and he wants to come after the broadcasters because, well, we must be doing something right.
[50:30.210 --> 50:35.170]  We must be getting to him in one way or another that he feels the need to shut them down.
[50:35.490 --> 50:37.650]  And that's something that's a very real threat.
[50:37.670 --> 50:39.350]  We might laugh and say that doesn't happen here.
[50:39.750 --> 50:42.230]  A lot of things are happening here that didn't used to happen here.
[50:42.270 --> 50:44.530]  And this is something we need to take very seriously.
[50:44.530 --> 50:48.610]  Shutting people down on the basis of viewpoint is extremely dangerous here.
[50:48.810 --> 50:48.870]  Yeah.
[50:48.870 --> 50:51.090]  So outrageously offensive to the First Amendment.
[50:51.330 --> 50:57.750]  He may disparage the medium or the profession, but he understands the power of it.
[50:57.750 --> 51:01.210]  And here at WBAI, you are the power.
[51:01.410 --> 51:02.350]  You are part of that.
[51:02.510 --> 51:07.130]  And that's where off the hook comes from, the same spirit.
[51:07.130 --> 51:14.610]  One thing I think that you brought up, Alex, that is important to recognize is the...
[51:14.610 --> 51:21.010]  Well, at the station, the diversity is sort of our power.
[51:21.230 --> 51:32.550]  The interests and commitment we have to speaking truth here is from a really authentic place.
[51:32.550 --> 51:36.630]  And that's what your contributions will go to support.
[51:36.630 --> 51:43.610]  And we'll continue to be able to cover these issues and bring interesting perspectives.
[51:43.810 --> 51:51.330]  I did want to mention, if you want to listen to that 29 years of history, you can go to 2600.com slash off the hook.
[51:51.530 --> 51:55.410]  There's all kinds of decades of recordings.
[51:55.410 --> 52:03.730]  And also, hope.net, if you'd like to hear any other talks than we're offering tonight.
[52:03.970 --> 52:05.150]  History repeats itself.
[52:05.350 --> 52:06.250]  We're seeing that.
[52:06.470 --> 52:09.130]  We saw that in the last couple of years with leaking.
[52:09.130 --> 52:28.870]  I mean, and a lot of the things that we've written about in the magazine and hackers have been talking about for a long time, that, you know, a lot of these surveillance and legal mechanisms that are used against people, whether you're aware of it or whether we're talking about it or not,
[52:29.530 --> 52:34.250]  they continue to be employed and continue to evolve with technology.
[52:34.510 --> 52:38.750]  And so, we're offering these talks from our event.
[52:38.750 --> 52:43.710]  And as I said, our program here has been airing for 29 years.
[52:43.810 --> 52:44.390]  29 years.
[52:44.590 --> 52:51.290]  And at the 2600.com slash off the hook website, you can go back and listen to all of that material.
[52:51.290 --> 52:54.810]  And I encourage you to do it because, like I said, it repeats itself.
[52:55.150 --> 53:01.350]  Yeah, there's not quite an example in history to parallel with what we're experiencing now.
[53:01.350 --> 53:15.550]  But there are a lot of these initiatives, a lot of these policies, a lot of these, as I said, mechanisms with speech that are now sort of, yeah, being leveraged in a new way against, as we've said, broadcasters and so on.
[53:15.630 --> 53:22.770]  But I'm confident that we'll know it, we'll see it coming, and we'll rise to confront it.
[53:22.770 --> 53:25.110]  Okay, Alex, you mentioned number stations before.
[53:25.210 --> 53:35.030]  I've always been fascinated by shortwave radio and using radio to communicate messages, you know, bypassing those who are overseeing you.
[53:35.510 --> 53:37.410]  Can you describe how those worked?
[53:37.590 --> 53:39.090]  Oh, it's very fascinating.
[53:39.250 --> 53:42.090]  Actually, it's not how they work, it's actually how they still work, right?
[53:42.210 --> 53:47.590]  So, shortwave radio broadcasts over huge amounts of geography, but also depending upon atmospheric conditions.
[53:47.590 --> 53:55.250]  And number stations will broadcast out a series of numbers, either German, Russian, English, they're just numbers.
[53:55.250 --> 53:59.230]  You hear them at three o'clock in the morning, four o'clock in the morning, generally late hours.
[53:59.810 --> 54:05.530]  They may be broadcast from the United States and directed to somebody in Germany and Russia.
[54:05.750 --> 54:07.610]  You just really have no idea.
[54:07.950 --> 54:17.270]  Those numbers then relate to something called a one-time keypad that allows a message to be decoded or decrypted on this one-time keypad just once.
[54:17.270 --> 54:21.150]  After it's decrypted, the one-time keypad is burned, the message is received.
[54:21.390 --> 54:29.150]  And nobody, because it's via radio, has ever had to do anything or engage in any kind of affirmative act to receive the transmission.
[54:29.330 --> 54:30.550]  So you can't tell who's listening.
[54:30.550 --> 54:31.330]  You can't tell who's listening.
[54:31.570 --> 54:32.690]  That's the magic of radio.
[54:32.770 --> 54:33.510]  You don't know who's listening.
[54:33.510 --> 54:33.810]  Exactly right.
[54:33.810 --> 54:35.070]  That's what's so cool about it.
[54:35.150 --> 54:36.030]  That's why it's so important.
[54:36.210 --> 54:40.530]  Unlike a website, unlike a blog, unlike a podcast, there's no record.
[54:40.530 --> 54:46.750]  If you want anonymity in the receipt of your information, radio is the only way to go.
[54:46.750 --> 54:55.650]  And I have a message for those people, actually, that are listening anonymously, that we have no way of knowing who you are, where you are, when you're listening.
[54:55.950 --> 55:04.110]  I just have this to say, 18, 5, 19, 9, 19, 20.
[55:05.870 --> 55:06.430]  Oh, yeah.
[55:06.630 --> 55:09.410]  You won't know what I'm talking about, but...
[55:09.410 --> 55:10.190]  But somebody else will.
[55:10.190 --> 55:10.850]  Somebody might.
[55:11.050 --> 55:11.350]  That's right.
[55:11.450 --> 55:12.050]  Somebody might.
[55:12.250 --> 55:12.330]  Yeah.
[55:12.630 --> 55:13.330]  Somebody in there.
[55:13.550 --> 55:14.990]  And it'll drive you crazy if you don't.
[55:14.990 --> 55:15.230]  That's right.
[55:15.230 --> 55:16.050]  If you don't figure it out.
[55:16.110 --> 55:17.490]  Is that for the operative in Newark?
[55:18.870 --> 55:20.330]  What, you expect me to tell you that?
[55:20.690 --> 55:22.150]  Well, just trying to get it out.
[55:22.150 --> 55:22.650]  Yeah.
[55:22.910 --> 55:25.530]  Our number, 516-620-3602.
[55:25.670 --> 55:28.070]  Please give us a call and support this radio station.
[55:28.230 --> 55:29.250]  We're pretty much out of time.
[55:29.790 --> 55:38.250]  We'd like to hear from our listeners, obviously, OTH at 2600.com, with any thoughts, opinions, contradictions?
[55:38.250 --> 55:39.330]  Yeah.
[55:39.470 --> 55:44.670]  Thanks for listening, and call 516-620-3602.
[55:44.770 --> 55:46.710]  Get your final pledge in for this hour.
[55:47.010 --> 55:52.950]  Support WBAI and Off The Hook, and we'll be back once again.
[55:53.330 --> 55:53.730]  Yes.
[55:53.770 --> 56:08.030]  If not next week, the week after, or thereabouts, but continue paying attention and writing to us, sending us stories, observations, whatever you feel is relevant to what we talk about here every Wednesday night, OTH at 2600.com.
[56:08.290 --> 56:09.510]  It's the manual for Off The Hook.
[56:09.650 --> 56:10.230]  Have a good night.
[56:10.530 --> 56:10.930]  Bye.
[58:17.630 --> 58:19.030]  Bye.
[58:27.850 --> 58:29.250]  Bye.
[58:29.750 --> 58:30.030]  Bye.