[00:00.000 --> 00:09.100]  Miriam McKeever, Sammy Davis Jr., I've Gotta Be Me, the Canadian political satire, Black Cop, and more.
[00:09.440 --> 00:15.280]  The African Diaspora International Film Festival from November 24th to December 10th.
[00:15.500 --> 00:28.300]  For tickets and schedule, go online to myadiff.org or call 212-864-1760.
[00:28.300 --> 00:31.540]  Enjoy your world on the big screen.
[00:33.680 --> 00:37.000]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:37.160 --> 00:39.040]  The time is two minutes after eight o'clock.
[00:39.200 --> 00:43.060]  And that means it's time once again for another edition of Off the Hook.
[00:48.440 --> 00:52.880]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:53.880 --> 00:58.340]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:59.040 --> 01:01.180]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:02.140 --> 01:03.740]  But if they could, they would.
[01:04.040 --> 01:06.640]  Von Dillibom, for the best, expect the worst.
[01:07.400 --> 01:09.140]  I hope that's understood.
[01:09.360 --> 01:10.200]  Von Dillibom!
[01:33.640 --> 01:35.080]  And the very good evening, Terrifier.
[01:35.220 --> 01:36.280]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:36.380 --> 01:38.900]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you back in New York.
[01:39.100 --> 01:41.060]  Joined tonight by Rob T.
[01:41.260 --> 01:41.740]  Firefly.
[01:42.020 --> 01:42.620]  Good evening.
[01:43.240 --> 01:43.700]  Alex.
[01:44.200 --> 01:44.940]  Good evening.
[01:45.200 --> 01:45.680]  Voltaire.
[01:46.100 --> 01:46.320]  Hey.
[01:46.600 --> 01:46.940]  Kyle.
[01:47.300 --> 01:47.820]  Hi, Ian.
[01:47.840 --> 01:48.300]  What's up?
[01:48.520 --> 01:49.600]  You're back in New York, too.
[01:49.600 --> 01:51.400]  We travel together down to the south.
[01:51.860 --> 01:52.800]  Yeah, I'm adjusting.
[01:53.700 --> 01:55.180]  I'm getting acclimated.
[01:55.340 --> 01:57.780]  And I'll say it's going quite well.
[01:58.000 --> 01:58.220]  Thanks.
[01:58.320 --> 01:58.860]  I'm glad you asked.
[01:58.900 --> 02:00.100]  The acclimation is going well.
[02:00.300 --> 02:01.240]  Good to hear that.
[02:01.440 --> 02:12.020]  But, you know, the thing that I think we can bring out of driving a big truck through the deep south, is what we did to get back here, is that when you have good radio, nothing else really matters.
[02:12.020 --> 02:23.600]  And we found some terrific radio in places like Tallahassee and Charlottesville and Montgomery, all kinds of places where you get a non-commercial community radio station or college station.
[02:23.760 --> 02:27.080]  And you suddenly feel comfortable again.
[02:27.380 --> 02:41.500]  It's also an incredible statement in those markets because of the vast contrast or dichotomy or distinction between what they're doing with a community model and with, you know, what you see writ large out there.
[02:41.740 --> 02:42.340]  Right, right.
[02:42.420 --> 02:46.020]  So we really, we're looking for it and those little gems, they're there.
[02:46.160 --> 02:48.280]  And it's such a statement in those markets.
[02:48.280 --> 02:50.900]  And that's one of the things we do here at WBAI.
[02:50.980 --> 03:01.840]  What I like to do, though, when we travel, when we go different places, I'm speaking all of us, is basically just let the norm be defined by what you want it to be.
[03:01.980 --> 03:05.480]  Not, you know, say Charlottesville is filled with evil people.
[03:05.580 --> 03:06.160]  It's because it's not.
[03:06.280 --> 03:07.040]  It's filled with great people.
[03:07.200 --> 03:09.820]  And if you listen to the radio station down there, which I think is...
[03:09.840 --> 03:16.580]  WTJU, you'll hear all kinds of amazing things, amazing music, amazing thoughts, alternative ideas.
[03:16.900 --> 03:19.520]  And it's not limited to a radio station at all.
[03:19.740 --> 03:23.800]  You can have these conversations with people in the street in various places.
[03:24.800 --> 03:27.300]  And I think that's something that we sometimes miss.
[03:27.420 --> 03:35.340]  We assume that because a place is in the region that it's going to be bad or backwards or something like that.
[03:35.400 --> 03:35.920]  And it's not true.
[03:36.160 --> 03:37.200]  It's really not true.
[03:37.680 --> 03:38.500]  It can happen.
[03:38.640 --> 03:39.160]  There's evil everywhere.
[03:39.260 --> 03:40.360]  There's evil right here in New York City.
[03:40.480 --> 03:45.980]  In fact, we had some evil here in New York City that we kind of shifted down south a little bit.
[03:46.940 --> 03:48.920]  And now the rest of the world's dealing with that.
[03:49.040 --> 03:51.420]  But yeah, good radio.
[03:51.600 --> 03:53.580]  That's what I'm trying to impart here.
[03:53.940 --> 03:55.140]  Always look for the good radio.
[03:55.440 --> 04:02.460]  You can turn on your own MP3 player or mixtape or whatever, but you miss out on the local experience that way.
[04:02.620 --> 04:04.480]  And there's so much we have to say to each other.
[04:06.420 --> 04:10.300]  And Twitter is something that we use to communicate with each other.
[04:10.400 --> 04:12.140]  I think we're going to talk a lot about Twitter tonight.
[04:12.680 --> 04:18.360]  We also are going to take phone calls because next week, I understand we have another fundraiser.
[04:18.540 --> 04:22.920]  This is the one that we don't have a name for because we've already used all four seasons.
[04:23.080 --> 04:26.220]  So this is, I guess, I guess we'll use months now, the December fundraiser.
[04:26.220 --> 04:27.660]  That's coming up next week.
[04:27.820 --> 04:33.260]  So it'll be easier for us to take phone calls this week since we're not using the phone line for anything else.
[04:33.940 --> 04:44.260]  So we'll be giving out that number and hopefully having some conversations with people about technology and hacking and privacy and various things like that.
[04:44.620 --> 04:46.320]  There's all kinds of things, as always.
[04:46.320 --> 04:47.720]  We could go on for hours and hours.
[04:48.100 --> 04:48.800]  But Twitter.
[04:49.060 --> 04:49.500]  Okay.
[04:49.620 --> 04:50.940]  So have you ever heard this name?
[04:52.040 --> 04:53.760]  Forgive me if I'm pronouncing it wrong.
[04:55.200 --> 04:56.080]  Bhatia Duysak.
[04:56.220 --> 04:57.500]  Does that name ring a bell to you?
[04:57.660 --> 04:58.680]  Alex, you're perking up.
[04:59.160 --> 04:59.480]  No.
[04:59.880 --> 05:00.420]  No, not at all.
[05:00.420 --> 05:02.400]  Why did you perk up if it doesn't mean anything to you?
[05:02.480 --> 05:04.760]  Because you said a name that I didn't recognize.
[05:04.940 --> 05:05.960]  I thought you were going to say a different name.
[05:06.060 --> 05:08.940]  So every time I say a name you don't recognize, you're going to look interested.
[05:09.480 --> 05:09.800]  Absolutely.
[05:10.160 --> 05:10.320]  Wow.
[05:10.320 --> 05:11.120]  Because I'm curious.
[05:11.500 --> 05:12.280]  You're a strange person.
[05:12.340 --> 05:13.320]  Inquiring minds want to know.
[05:14.160 --> 05:14.800]  Bhatia Duysak.
[05:14.920 --> 05:15.880]  I think I'm saying it right.
[05:16.020 --> 05:17.980]  And forgive me, Bhatia, if I'm saying it wrong.
[05:18.160 --> 05:18.820]  How do you spell it?
[05:19.160 --> 05:21.520]  B-A-H-T-I-Y-A-R.
[05:21.520 --> 05:22.340]  How do you think you spell it?
[05:22.360 --> 05:23.320]  Bhatia Duysak.
[05:23.440 --> 05:23.580]  Yeah.
[05:23.960 --> 05:24.140]  Yeah.
[05:24.140 --> 05:24.600]  All right.
[05:24.720 --> 05:26.040]  Nobody here knows this name.
[05:26.420 --> 05:26.880]  Wow.
[05:27.080 --> 05:27.280]  Okay.
[05:27.520 --> 05:30.360]  Well, you know, I think that we should know this name.
[05:30.400 --> 05:34.620]  I think we should have a parade for this name.
[05:35.680 --> 05:39.260]  Bhatia Duysak is a 20-something with Turkish roots.
[05:39.540 --> 05:41.280]  He was born and raised in Germany.
[05:41.720 --> 05:48.380]  And he was working as a contractor for a fixed term for the last part of his stay in the United States under a work and study visa.
[05:48.380 --> 05:55.080]  And he basically found himself working with Twitter, with a company called Pro Unlimited.
[05:55.620 --> 06:01.520]  And other assignments included stints at monetization at Google, YouTube, through another contractor named Vaco.
[06:01.780 --> 06:02.780]  All these names.
[06:03.300 --> 06:10.120]  So anyway, many have wondered on Twitter why Donald Trump's account has never been shut down for violating Twitter's terms.
[06:10.640 --> 06:20.300]  Among the reasons people have given is that he's threatened North Korea with nuclear violence, while others have been calling for people to report him using Twitter's reporting tools for offensive tweets.
[06:20.540 --> 06:22.400]  And in fact, it's a lot of ammunition today.
[06:22.400 --> 06:23.500]  We can get into that as well.
[06:23.500 --> 06:29.340]  Now, at Twitter, Duysak had been assigned to customer support as part of the Trust and Safety Division.
[06:29.620 --> 06:31.800]  Yes, Trust and Safety Division of Twitter.
[06:32.160 --> 06:42.480]  This team receives alerts when users report bad behavior, including offensive or illegal tweets, harassment, someone impersonating another person, and so on.
[06:42.920 --> 06:47.660]  The team performs triage on complaints to determine what further steps, if any, should be taken.
[06:48.360 --> 06:55.820]  Now, Duysak, who, in case you're interested, is medium in stature and wears a black and gray cardigan with a pattern of the American flag across it.
[06:56.500 --> 06:59.040]  Not every day, I guess, but on this particular day he was.
[06:59.260 --> 07:01.020]  And it wasn't something he was planning either.
[07:01.020 --> 07:02.000]  It just kind of happened.
[07:02.360 --> 07:03.580]  He's a personable guy.
[07:03.660 --> 07:05.200]  That's according to the story in TechCrunch.
[07:05.940 --> 07:06.940]  He's quick to smile.
[07:07.080 --> 07:07.960]  He's close to his family.
[07:08.060 --> 07:09.200]  Has a big network of friends.
[07:09.200 --> 07:12.340]  He speaks with a certain kind of indeterminate European accent.
[07:12.520 --> 07:14.760]  What's indeterminate to you, TechCrunch writer?
[07:14.880 --> 07:17.020]  Probably because you don't go to the places he goes to.
[07:17.020 --> 07:19.300]  I'm sure it would be very determinate to anybody over there.
[07:19.900 --> 07:24.800]  Anyway, the kind you often hear from people who have traveled, lived, and studied across different countries.
[07:24.800 --> 07:27.440]  He's more euro than bro.
[07:27.880 --> 07:28.760]  I'll say it again.
[07:29.500 --> 07:31.580]  I'll say it again because that's the hook of the whole story.
[07:31.580 --> 07:33.640]  He's more euro than bro.
[07:35.420 --> 07:36.600]  I'm not going to say that again.
[07:36.680 --> 07:37.340]  Isn't he Turkish?
[07:37.640 --> 07:38.480]  Didn't he say he was Turkish?
[07:39.040 --> 07:40.580]  Yeah, Turkey's in Europe.
[07:40.580 --> 07:41.540]  Part of it's in Europe anyway.
[07:41.800 --> 07:43.520]  Well, I guess it's not part of the EU.
[07:44.700 --> 07:46.460]  Wow, you want to go to war over this, don't you?
[07:46.460 --> 07:49.560]  I mean, I guess that's a whole contentious issue right there.
[07:49.980 --> 07:50.960]  We don't have time.
[07:51.180 --> 07:51.740]  We just don't have time.
[07:51.940 --> 07:54.020]  Isn't Turkey like the gateway to Europe?
[07:54.340 --> 07:57.700]  It's the gateway to Asia, but I guess if you're going the other way, it's the gateway to Europe.
[07:57.860 --> 08:00.400]  Yeah, and it sort of straddles many continents.
[08:00.400 --> 08:01.840]  I think three, right?
[08:02.000 --> 08:03.220]  It's very near northern.
[08:03.740 --> 08:05.860]  What third continent would it be straddling?
[08:06.460 --> 08:08.420]  Near northern Africa, right?
[08:08.420 --> 08:10.200]  Well, way northern Africa.
[08:10.640 --> 08:13.120]  You'd have to go through a few Middle Eastern countries first to get there.
[08:13.120 --> 08:15.120]  Thankfully, this isn't the geography show, but...
[08:15.120 --> 08:16.460]  No, they can hear that on Saturday mornings.
[08:16.460 --> 08:16.960]  I'll take that.
[08:17.160 --> 08:17.900]  Yeah, okay.
[08:18.020 --> 08:21.920]  Well, I guess technically one side of the Bosphorus is Asia and the other side is Europe.
[08:22.080 --> 08:22.440]  Is that...
[08:22.440 --> 08:23.600]  If you insist.
[08:23.760 --> 08:25.220]  You know, that's not really the point here.
[08:25.240 --> 08:26.500]  Okay, let's get back to the brain issue.
[08:27.080 --> 08:29.440]  Anyway, his last day at Twitter was mostly uneventful.
[08:29.920 --> 08:31.020]  There were many goodbyes.
[08:31.020 --> 08:34.460]  He worked up until the last hour before his computer access was to be shut off.
[08:34.660 --> 08:38.740]  And near the end of his shift, the fateful alert came in.
[08:39.080 --> 08:39.980]  This is...
[08:39.980 --> 08:42.060]  And this is fascinating because I didn't know this is how it unfolded.
[08:42.180 --> 08:46.120]  This is where Trump's behavior intersects with Doysak's work life.
[08:46.980 --> 08:50.680]  Someone reported Trump's account on Doysak's last day.
[08:50.820 --> 08:55.540]  As a final throwaway gesture, he put the wheels in motion to deactivate it.
[08:55.700 --> 08:58.160]  Then he closed his computer and left the building.
[08:58.580 --> 09:00.620]  Several hours later, the panic began.
[09:00.620 --> 09:05.120]  Doysak tells us that it started when he was approached by a woman whom he didn't know very well.
[09:05.260 --> 09:11.220]  According to Doysak, the woman said that she had been contacted by someone asking about Doysak in connection with Trump's Twitter account.
[09:11.700 --> 09:16.760]  And after a moment of disbelief, he said he then looked at the news and realized what had happened.
[09:17.120 --> 09:18.900]  He describes the event as a mistake.
[09:19.000 --> 09:23.160]  Specifically, he said he never thought the account would actually get deactivated.
[09:23.240 --> 09:28.860]  But in fact, it appeared that Trump's account was essentially protected from being deactivated over terms of service violations.
[09:29.420 --> 09:31.160]  In June, Twitter explained why.
[09:31.320 --> 09:37.260]  Some tweets that seemingly violate its terms of service are nevertheless newsworthy and therefore in the public interest to keep up.
[09:37.920 --> 09:52.070]  One takeaway from Twitter's exemption for newsworthy tweets is that news and information, Trump, no pun intended, judgment calls on the relative toxicity of the content, which is probably apt in our age of...
[09:52.380 --> 09:53.380]  I can't say that word again.
[09:53.380 --> 09:55.920]  And toxicity dressed up as news.
[09:56.800 --> 10:01.380]  Anyway, so Doysak has been hailed as a hero by some, but he said he hasn't felt like one at all.
[10:01.500 --> 10:05.620]  He's been pursued by media, which has been really aggressive contacting his family and friends.
[10:06.960 --> 10:09.120]  But the thing is, he says, I didn't hack anyone.
[10:09.240 --> 10:10.980]  I didn't do anything I was not authorized to do.
[10:11.180 --> 10:13.020]  I didn't go to any site I was not supposed to go to.
[10:13.060 --> 10:14.000]  I didn't break any rules.
[10:14.180 --> 10:15.500]  It just seems like he followed the rules.
[10:15.500 --> 10:27.280]  And it seems like somebody else picked up the torch after he started the wheels in motion, if you want to mix some metaphors there, and just did the next step, which was turn off his damn account.
[10:28.480 --> 10:34.260]  And that was interesting, how that all transpired, leading to the question of why doesn't this happen more often?
[10:34.360 --> 10:42.400]  Today, for instance, Trump tweeted several far-right videos from a far-right hate group of England.
[10:43.280 --> 10:46.520]  And even Theresa May is condemning what he did today.
[10:46.720 --> 10:48.660]  And now he's going after Theresa May on Twitter.
[10:48.720 --> 10:50.860]  As we speak, he's having a war with her.
[10:51.460 --> 10:52.480]  I mean, think about this.
[10:52.840 --> 10:54.200]  Ultra-right versus ultra-right.
[10:55.040 --> 10:56.960]  It's something I never thought I'd see.
[10:57.620 --> 11:02.320]  But people are saying he should lose his account because he's doing things like this.
[11:02.440 --> 11:07.820]  And, you know, I kind of disagree because if you take away...
[11:07.820 --> 11:10.140]  Well, first of all, I would love to see his face if he took away his Twitter account.
[11:10.140 --> 11:17.600]  But if you do take away his Twitter account, he's still going to be the same vile human being that he is on Twitter, except he'll be off Twitter.
[11:18.000 --> 11:22.420]  And we won't get the daily reminders of what a terrible person he is.
[11:22.460 --> 11:24.200]  And I think we kind of need that.
[11:24.320 --> 11:27.680]  We need to always be reminded that this is not normal.
[11:27.820 --> 11:29.740]  This is not something that we should ever accept.
[11:31.120 --> 11:35.860]  And, you know, horrible as it is, the things he says, he is the President of the United States.
[11:36.000 --> 11:39.000]  And if he's saying things like this, I think we all need to know about it.
[11:39.180 --> 11:39.520]  Alex.
[11:39.520 --> 11:48.400]  So if I understand you correctly, you would be advocating for less viewpoint discrimination on Twitter.
[11:48.580 --> 11:57.880]  It doesn't matter what the statement is, even if it's abhorrent, if it's an abhorrent political view, you should be allowed to state it.
[11:58.020 --> 11:58.540]  Would that be correct?
[11:58.700 --> 11:59.320]  A view, sure.
[11:59.500 --> 12:01.680]  I think views are fine.
[12:02.020 --> 12:03.900]  People don't have to accept your views.
[12:03.900 --> 12:18.260]  Because when you are doing something that's abusive to somebody else, when you're bullying somebody or being libelous towards somebody or advocating violence towards somebody, things like that, it's pretty clear.
[12:18.300 --> 12:22.240]  So long as it's not illegal, but any kind of viewpoint discrimination would be bad, according to you.
[12:22.300 --> 12:23.220]  I believe so, yes.
[12:23.220 --> 12:31.900]  So, you know, you actually dovetail, your argument dovetails, that is, you know, with the comments of the FCC chairman, Ajit Pai, that he recently made.
[12:32.160 --> 12:34.980]  And if I could quote him, he sounds exactly like what you just said.
[12:34.980 --> 12:36.420]  I don't like the way this is going.
[12:36.600 --> 12:36.740]  I know.
[12:36.920 --> 12:37.620]  I know you don't.
[12:37.720 --> 12:37.800]  Yeah.
[12:38.420 --> 12:49.240]  According to Ajit Pai, he said that the real threat to an open internet comes from companies like Twitter that regularly pick and choose what gets posted to their sites based on their political agenda.
[12:49.740 --> 12:56.600]  He accused Twitter specifically of blocking Republican Representative Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee from advertising her Senate campaign launch video.
[12:56.800 --> 12:57.840]  This is from an article.
[12:59.300 --> 13:00.380]  Who wrote this article?
[13:00.440 --> 13:02.000]  We passed it around on the list earlier.
[13:02.200 --> 13:03.500]  From CNET, actually.
[13:03.500 --> 13:08.340]  Okay, so what is this case that you're citing, that she lost her Twitter account because why?
[13:08.480 --> 13:12.680]  She wasn't allowed to post a video about a pro-life message, apparently.
[13:13.740 --> 13:16.040]  But, you know, I tend to agree with you as well.
[13:16.240 --> 13:16.560]  You're saying...
[13:16.560 --> 13:17.020]  Hold on a second.
[13:17.060 --> 13:21.640]  You're saying if I post a pro-life video on Twitter, they're going to shut me down.
[13:21.720 --> 13:22.540]  I don't think that's true.
[13:22.580 --> 13:23.520]  It sounds very taken out of context.
[13:23.700 --> 13:25.000]  It sounds like it's way out of context.
[13:25.000 --> 13:25.740]  I'm sure it is.
[13:25.800 --> 13:26.340]  I'm sure it is.
[13:26.420 --> 13:27.740]  But the point here is exactly the same.
[13:27.880 --> 13:30.300]  Viewpoint discrimination is bad regardless of the view.
[13:30.700 --> 13:32.280]  And I completely agree with that.
[13:32.280 --> 13:42.780]  And I think that we have social media to blame in large respect for the results of this past election because we have been fed only that which we like.
[13:42.780 --> 13:51.560]  And when these algorithms that generate what's on our feeds are designed to give us more of what we like, not to challenge us or to make us think.
[13:51.560 --> 13:58.560]  And that's what viewpoint discrimination, you know, that's when it becomes really, really bad and becomes a societal problem.
[13:59.020 --> 14:00.920]  So I completely agree.
[14:01.020 --> 14:11.440]  But if we're talking about Twitter's terms of service being applied equally to everybody and nobody being essentially above the law or above the policy, that's a totally different argument.
[14:11.440 --> 14:28.140]  Well, I mean, again, with the case, I can see the case of the president of the United States kind of having a little more leeway as far as as getting away with things because of who he is and what he represents and the fact that we have a right to know that.
[14:28.140 --> 14:42.760]  So maybe there should be another level where, yeah, you can advocate horrible things if you are a somebody who millions of people look up to, then, yeah, that kind of is more important that we realize what kind of person you really are.
[14:42.960 --> 14:51.000]  Whereas the rest of us, you know, we have certain conduct that we have to maintain, a certain level of civility.
[14:51.000 --> 14:52.120]  I don't know.
[14:52.300 --> 15:03.240]  But I'm always for erring on the side of, you know, of freedom, letting people say what's what's on their mind and sorting it out afterwards.
[15:03.780 --> 15:04.840]  I agree with that.
[15:04.920 --> 15:15.120]  Given how powerful Twitter and also Facebook are, they're so integral into people's lives that we need basically they're almost like another brand of government.
[15:15.120 --> 15:21.080]  Like, if you're centered from Twitter or you're centered from Facebook, you won't be able to participate in a lot of discussion with your friends.
[15:21.120 --> 15:32.360]  So I think that you should have the same free speech standards that we have for for civic life from against restricted from the government applied to these these utilities that are so necessary in life.
[15:32.620 --> 15:38.600]  Whereas if Twitter was like some small upstart, then it would be understandable for them to say, like, oh, we don't want Nazis on our platform.
[15:38.780 --> 15:43.160]  But given how integral they are, I feel like it's another will apply.
[15:43.160 --> 15:58.940]  Yeah, I really I don't know if this is already said in in in aggregate, but the the concept of of tears of speech in this platform and given the nature of the platform, I honestly think if Trump is allowed more leeway, they should just stop trying to filter content at all.
[15:59.200 --> 16:00.000]  Like, just stop.
[16:00.040 --> 16:02.140]  You have entire departments for this.
[16:02.460 --> 16:03.000]  Forget it.
[16:03.120 --> 16:04.300]  Just let it be open.
[16:04.460 --> 16:05.740]  Let it be awful and ugly.
[16:05.940 --> 16:07.520]  We'll know it's awful and ugly.
[16:07.680 --> 16:08.800]  The kids will be traumatized.
[16:08.980 --> 16:10.080]  Whatever happens, happens.
[16:10.280 --> 16:13.000]  But tearing it like this, I think, is complete crud.
[16:13.000 --> 16:15.280]  Well, OK, you know, I certainly see your point.
[16:15.420 --> 16:18.420]  It's kind of like a net neutrality argument here, anti net neutrality argument.
[16:19.340 --> 16:31.280]  But, you know, in the case of of of Trump being a horrible person, you know, I kind of like to let him do that and still discourage the rest of us from acting like that.
[16:31.360 --> 16:31.780]  You know what I mean?
[16:31.840 --> 16:40.100]  It's I'm torn here because, yeah, he clearly is violating things left, left and right and should be dealt with.
[16:40.100 --> 16:43.920]  And I again, I would love to see his face if he if he lost his account based on that.
[16:44.060 --> 16:44.520]  It would it would.
[16:44.840 --> 16:51.060]  But he just goes somewhere else and we wouldn't get the same level of access and he'd still be doing the same things.
[16:51.060 --> 16:51.980]  So I don't know.
[16:52.240 --> 16:53.320]  I proved me wrong.
[16:53.520 --> 17:03.480]  Voltaire, in terms of Kyle, I think it's important that we draw a line between let people can be like we should allow but Twitter should allow people to be nasty on their own on their own profile pages.
[17:03.680 --> 17:16.020]  But when they tweet, but when it comes to like replies that are directed at people, then then I think bullying should not be allowed at all because that's just going to drive people off of Twitter and silence them, which is its own form of censorship.
[17:17.000 --> 17:18.720]  Well, yeah, I certainly see that.
[17:18.840 --> 17:19.280]  Go ahead, Kyle.
[17:19.500 --> 17:40.420]  Well, I could easily see them like making lists of things to filter for individuals as being something they could easily monetize and sell you, you know, all the things that if you're concerned about this or that issue will be filtered and make it completely the user's responsibility to filter that stuff either from their their comments or from their wider timeline.
[17:40.420 --> 17:42.060]  But I completely disagree.
[17:42.280 --> 17:43.360]  I just think it should be awful.
[17:43.600 --> 17:50.320]  And yeah, let let the community start to regulate it in some way thereafter.
[17:50.320 --> 17:52.360]  But I don't know.
[17:52.440 --> 17:52.700]  I don't know.
[17:52.780 --> 18:04.300]  I don't know if I completely buy that, like, you should be protected from all bullying and and like you as soon as you start making these little classifications, I don't know, I just I can't it doesn't jive with me that well.
[18:04.460 --> 18:08.800]  I understand your point that yeah, there could be serious harm done to individuals.
[18:08.820 --> 18:11.920]  But in the in the grand scheme of things, I don't know.
[18:12.560 --> 18:19.400]  I think individuals then should be given the tools much more readily by the company if if they're to go kind of the direction I was talking about.
[18:19.400 --> 18:22.740]  Yeah, I think I more agree with you, Kyle.
[18:23.080 --> 18:25.220]  And again, Emmanuel, I see your point here.
[18:25.320 --> 18:34.740]  We want to see Trump for who he is, which is an abhorrent human being who's just posting some of the most inflammatory nonsense out there.
[18:34.920 --> 18:37.360]  The problem with that is, I think, is twofold.
[18:37.500 --> 18:48.020]  And number one, if we have this double standard, you know, it sort of defies this egalitarian notion of what the Internet is and what these platforms are devised to be.
[18:48.020 --> 18:51.340]  And the policy should apply equally to everybody.
[18:51.340 --> 19:11.980]  And if you're posting explicit or graphic images on your account, there is a mechanism in Twitter's policy itself that allows them to post a marking on your account that notifies others that you often or regularly post graphic images that may that people who are sensitive may find offensive or disturbing.
[19:11.980 --> 19:14.140]  Is that something that exists or that's something you're proposing?
[19:14.240 --> 19:14.240]  It is.
[19:14.240 --> 19:16.020]  It's something that exists in their policy, actually.
[19:16.080 --> 19:16.940]  And we can get into that.
[19:16.960 --> 19:17.820]  Wait, how are these people marked?
[19:17.900 --> 19:18.540]  I've never seen this.
[19:18.620 --> 19:20.840]  Is this like content rating or something?
[19:21.040 --> 19:27.640]  Yeah, so if you post, you know, let's say a clip from the old movie from the 80s, Faces of Death or something, right?
[19:27.640 --> 19:46.940]  Somebody dying on the electric chair, images of death or gore or somebody being subject to bodily injury, and that image is reported, Twitter then can require, they can mandate and actually put a notification on that post that requires somebody to click through it and say,
[19:47.000 --> 19:47.800]  I want to view this.
[19:47.800 --> 19:55.380]  It's a notification that there is graphic imagery to be found beyond this notification, and then you have to click through it and get to the actual image.
[19:55.400 --> 19:57.780]  Is that for a particular tweet or for that user?
[19:58.000 --> 20:04.160]  It's for that tweet, and if you regularly do it, Twitter can mandate that that notification occurs on your account.
[20:05.100 --> 20:13.340]  And, you know, some would say that, well, then, you know, here we are with the president of the United States posting graphic imagery of people dying.
[20:14.200 --> 20:15.020]  That's serious.
[20:15.380 --> 20:40.480]  You know, you know, so the other point that I wanted to make here is that if we allow this person who is obviously a bit deranged to continue with these types of posts, on the other hand of seeing him for what he is, other people are going to be incited and inspired by this kind of violence and take it as sort of a clarion call or just seem to operate on the basis that,
[20:40.600 --> 20:42.000]  you know, this type of violence is normal.
[20:42.000 --> 20:43.800]  And it's okay to hate Muslims.
[20:44.280 --> 20:46.840]  And that's something that I think that we shouldn't tolerate.
[20:46.840 --> 20:49.240]  And I think that the policies should be applied equally.
[20:49.660 --> 20:52.300]  Yes, but is removing his Twitter account enough?
[20:52.300 --> 20:55.240]  Because there are plenty of other ways for him to get his ugly messages out there.
[20:55.340 --> 20:58.360]  Well, let's have the policy applied equally to all.
[20:58.480 --> 20:59.580]  He posted graphic imagery.
[20:59.580 --> 21:11.240]  Let's have a notification on his account that everybody has to click through, you know, that states that the president of the United States posts graphic imagery of violence and death on his Twitter account.
[21:11.240 --> 21:22.600]  And the other half of that content marking policy is that you can, in your own Twitter settings, say, I don't want to see things marked explicit or marked, you know, R-rated or however you would put it.
[21:22.900 --> 21:26.380]  And theoretically, then you won't.
[21:26.680 --> 21:31.220]  But, you know, I'm always for the opposite of censorship.
[21:31.220 --> 21:36.180]  I want people to be able to put out there how full of crap they are so everyone can judge them fairly on this.
[21:36.180 --> 21:40.520]  But the other thing is, there are things to do besides deleting Trump's account.
[21:40.800 --> 21:52.540]  I mean, regular Twitter users, the plebeians out there, if they post something inflammatory or, you know, against Twitter's TOS, there is a thing where Twitter will just lock your account for a while.
[21:52.680 --> 22:00.120]  They'll sort of put you in the penalty box and say, hey, because of this tweet you made, you're not allowed to tweet for a while because it's against our content policy.
[22:00.120 --> 22:01.840]  And here's the policy and so on.
[22:02.100 --> 22:15.400]  So I'm interested in them possibly applying this to Trump in the way that they apply this to others because, you know, I would love to see him have a Twitter account and temporarily not be able to use it and to have that staring him in the face that what he did was not okay.
[22:16.040 --> 22:16.520]  So...
[22:16.520 --> 22:16.800]  Go ahead.
[22:17.240 --> 22:24.800]  I have the policy here that states and defines what they believe to be graphic imagery or graphic violence at Twitter.
[22:24.800 --> 22:29.480]  And it said, it's actually, it's very apropos of what happened this morning.
[22:29.960 --> 22:41.260]  I quote, we consider graphic violence to be any form of gory media related to death, serious injury, violence, or surgical procedures.
[22:42.040 --> 22:43.120]  Some examples...
[22:43.120 --> 22:44.220]  Wait, wait, surgical procedures?
[22:44.280 --> 22:45.060]  Surgical procedures.
[22:45.180 --> 22:46.140]  Nobody wants to see that.
[22:46.160 --> 22:49.960]  I never thought of posting surgery on Twitter, but now you have an idea.
[22:50.140 --> 22:50.420]  Duly noted.
[22:50.640 --> 22:51.000]  I know.
[22:51.180 --> 22:51.580]  Exactly.
[22:51.580 --> 22:57.200]  So we're talking about death, serious injury, violence, or, like we said, surgical procedures.
[22:57.400 --> 23:04.740]  Some examples include, but are not limited to, depictions of the moment at which someone dies, which apparently happened this morning.
[23:05.220 --> 23:08.980]  Gruesome crime or accident scenes definitely happened this morning.
[23:09.380 --> 23:13.800]  Bodily harm, torture, dismemberment, or mutilation definitely happened this morning.
[23:13.800 --> 23:25.700]  So every definition of what Twitter considers to be graphic violence that is not allowed on its outlet on the social media platform was satisfied by Trump's tweets this morning.
[23:25.860 --> 23:26.360]  Every single one.
[23:26.440 --> 23:27.880]  And that's a disjunctive standard.
[23:28.040 --> 23:29.840]  It's all, it's or, or, or.
[23:30.060 --> 23:31.660]  You know, you don't have to satisfy all of these.
[23:31.780 --> 23:32.400]  It's not conjunctive.
[23:32.400 --> 23:38.200]  So, by any stretch of any definition, Trump violated these terms of service this morning.
[23:38.740 --> 23:42.220]  And this is what happens from Twitter's own policy.
[23:42.460 --> 23:58.980]  If one of your tweets contains media and is reported as sensitive, and then I quote, comma, it will, uh, it will be sent to Twitter for review if we find that the media wasn't marked as being potentially sensitive at the time of the upload, meaning you had a chance to mark this as being sensitive,
[23:59.260 --> 24:03.500]  be careful, don't look at this, it's going to be graphic, um, this is what they can do.
[24:03.880 --> 24:09.620]  Quote, we may label the media as being potentially sensitive, or in the case of live video, remove the content entirely.
[24:10.180 --> 24:18.800]  We may change your account setting to mark media you tweet as containing material that may be sensitive, so that future posts are marked accordingly.
[24:19.420 --> 24:28.260]  Um, and you will receive an email letting you know that we've labeled your media, uh, and changed your media settings, and, you know, you can sort of appeal that type of decision as well.
[24:28.520 --> 24:32.520]  Uh, so this is the type of thing that would happen to any ordinary Twitter user.
[24:32.940 --> 24:36.780]  It certainly, in my opinion, should have happened to the President of the United States today.
[24:36.920 --> 24:44.320]  Well, okay, but the thing is, uh, with the tweets that we're talking about, that, that Trump, uh, posted today, uh, it was a retweet, for one thing.
[24:44.320 --> 24:51.400]  Uh, and it came from, uh, the, um, the, the far-right, um, uh, British group, whose name escapes me at the moment.
[24:51.660 --> 24:52.240]  Yeah, it's me too.
[24:52.380 --> 24:53.580]  British hate or something.
[24:54.200 --> 25:03.460]  Um, and, um, it was, uh, according to some people I've, I've, I've heard from, it's, it was posted by Ann Coulter, and he follows Ann Coulter, and that's how he got it.
[25:03.460 --> 25:11.200]  I, I'm not sure if that's true, uh, but then you have all of these people that have posted this where no action has been taken.
[25:11.700 --> 25:14.640]  So, should action be taken against those people as well?
[25:14.780 --> 25:15.580]  I think so.
[25:15.780 --> 25:24.360]  I think, you know, to apply this policy equally, anybody who tweets or retweets these particular types of graphic images should be treated exactly the same.
[25:25.040 --> 25:34.460]  I think if you or I posted that particular image on its own, without having retweeted the President, uh, we certainly would have been chastised by Twitter.
[25:34.660 --> 25:46.620]  And this is the problem with not applying that policy equally, is that this type of dissemination of graphic violence and hatred is going to become so normalized that we will turn a blind eye to it.
[25:47.000 --> 25:49.260]  And once that happens, all hell breaks.
[25:49.420 --> 26:02.320]  Well, I'm looking at the tweets right now, actually, uh, and it's interesting too, because, um, uh, Trump retweeted the old school way, because I guess he's used to doing it that way, you know, typing RT, followed by the username, followed by the tweet,
[26:02.540 --> 26:04.680]  uh, which is not just clicking a button.
[26:04.740 --> 26:06.480]  You have to actually type that part in.
[26:06.840 --> 26:12.440]  And, uh, this is for a user known as, uh, uh, J-A-Y-D-A-B-F.
[26:12.600 --> 26:13.500]  Don't know what that means.
[26:13.680 --> 26:15.700]  Uh, and he does not follow that user.
[26:16.160 --> 26:25.260]  Uh, so, um, if, if Ann Coulter, in fact, had that particular, uh, tweet in her timeline, he might have just added the RT and erased her name from it.
[26:25.600 --> 26:30.160]  Um, but that's, that's, uh, where, those three videos actually, actually came from.
[26:30.200 --> 26:30.440]  Voltaire.
[26:30.580 --> 26:38.760]  So, if our listeners want to chime in, we set up a Twitter poll at, uh, uh, Hacker Radio Show on Twitter to see if people think that he should be banned or not by Twitter.
[26:38.920 --> 26:39.960]  Oh, I saw a Twitter poll.
[26:40.220 --> 26:42.200]  And currently 75% of our...
[26:42.200 --> 26:42.620]  Wait a minute.
[26:42.820 --> 26:45.400]  How, how do people know about it before you even announced it?
[26:45.420 --> 26:48.620]  Okay, we have seven votes, and 86% think he should be banned.
[26:48.780 --> 26:49.620]  So, that way to go.
[26:49.700 --> 26:50.180]  He's banned.
[26:50.720 --> 26:51.020]  Okay.
[26:51.280 --> 26:51.580]  All right.
[26:51.640 --> 26:53.140]  Well, there you have it.
[26:53.460 --> 26:53.920]  Um, all right.
[26:54.060 --> 26:54.940]  Well, that, that's fine.
[26:55.140 --> 27:00.440]  Uh, so, if you're, if you're listening to us on the radio, uh, how do people participate in this poll?
[27:00.880 --> 27:03.780]  You can, if you have a Twitter, you'll have to have a Twitter account.
[27:04.040 --> 27:04.600]  You have to have a Twitter account.
[27:04.760 --> 27:06.480]  Go to Hacker Radio Show on Twitter.
[27:06.700 --> 27:08.240]  Hacker Radio Show is our Twitter ID.
[27:08.540 --> 27:08.720]  Yes.
[27:08.860 --> 27:10.260]  And you'll see the poll there.
[27:10.520 --> 27:10.840]  Exactly.
[27:11.020 --> 27:11.620]  And you can vote.
[27:11.780 --> 27:13.600]  And how long is this election or whatever?
[27:14.060 --> 27:15.760]  Uh, the polls last for 24 hours.
[27:15.940 --> 27:16.360]  24 hours.
[27:16.480 --> 27:18.740]  We'll report back as the show goes along and next week.
[27:19.040 --> 27:19.360]  All right.
[27:19.720 --> 27:20.020]  All right.
[27:20.080 --> 27:22.220]  We'll see how many people actually respond to this thing.
[27:22.460 --> 27:26.180]  And if you, if you don't have that's OTH at 2600.com.
[27:26.640 --> 27:26.960]  Wow.
[27:27.360 --> 27:28.880]  And we don't know who you are when you vote.
[27:29.280 --> 27:32.220]  There's no way to, to, well, I mean, there probably is, but we don't know how to do it.
[27:32.340 --> 27:35.640]  Uh, so, uh, vote, uh, you know, without fear.
[27:35.800 --> 27:36.880]  Vote early, vote often.
[27:37.460 --> 27:38.500]  Can you vote more than once?
[27:38.620 --> 27:39.480]  If you have multiple accounts.
[27:39.600 --> 27:40.240]  If you have multiple, yeah.
[27:40.320 --> 27:40.480]  Okay.
[27:41.160 --> 27:41.440]  Go ahead.
[27:41.760 --> 27:44.320]  Uh, I want to build off something Voltaire mentioned earlier.
[27:44.580 --> 27:56.060]  And, and I think that the poll, uh, aptly illustrates here is that, you know, participation in social media these days does seem to be somewhat, uh, critical uh, civic life.
[27:56.340 --> 27:59.780]  Uh, I don't necessarily agree, however, with Voltaire, though.
[27:59.880 --> 28:07.900]  I, I do see the merit in his argument that, uh, we should treat this equally as an outlet of free speech, as if it were something that were government mandated.
[28:07.920 --> 28:15.440]  I, I think that might be a little bit dangerous to sort of apply the, the bill of rights to a private party and not to the government itself.
[28:15.440 --> 28:19.480]  I think that may be, you know, more dangerous than we can anticipate at the moment.
[28:20.140 --> 28:24.640]  But yet, uh, on the other hand, um, he does make a great point.
[28:24.640 --> 28:34.040]  And this is something that the president's colleagues or minions, whatever you want to call them, have been constantly saying, sort of as like a mantra for many, many months.
[28:34.160 --> 28:37.080]  I don't know if you've, you've heard, uh, Sarah Sanders say this.
[28:37.080 --> 28:46.680]  You've heard Kellyanne Conway say, uh, say that, that, uh, that Sebastian Gorka guy, all saying that the president loves social media and he knows how to use it.
[28:46.760 --> 28:49.540]  And he's an incredibly effective communicator on social media.
[28:50.100 --> 28:51.840]  Well, look what happened this morning.
[28:52.000 --> 28:54.500]  I mean, he, uh, this is obviously not the case.
[28:54.660 --> 28:56.080]  This is created a mouth.
[28:56.120 --> 28:59.500]  I think he communicated very well, exactly how he feels.
[28:59.760 --> 29:02.440]  Uh, perhaps I know a lot more about him than I did before.
[29:02.540 --> 29:03.300]  And I thought I knew everything.
[29:03.440 --> 29:04.200]  That's a good point.
[29:04.320 --> 29:06.140]  You know, I didn't think of it in that way.
[29:06.200 --> 29:16.080]  And if he's really trying to show his true colors in social media, maybe he's doing a wonderful job, but in terms of winning friends and influencing people, he hardly seems to be doing a good job at this.
[29:16.140 --> 29:17.200]  I don't think he cares about that.
[29:17.380 --> 29:21.240]  I think he sees himself as above any of that and he can do whatever he wants.
[29:21.340 --> 29:24.680]  And keep in mind, you know, we're talking about special privileges in Twitter.
[29:24.820 --> 29:26.560]  He has special privileges in life.
[29:26.940 --> 29:30.120]  He could literally shoot somebody on fifth Avenue and get away with it.
[29:30.120 --> 29:30.580]  He's president.
[29:30.620 --> 29:33.080]  He can't be charged with that kind of a crime as far as I know.
[29:33.120 --> 29:33.840]  It's quite true.
[29:33.880 --> 29:35.860]  And actually this is something, you know, Rob T.
[29:35.980 --> 29:40.900]  Firefly and I were talking about before the show, which is every single morning Rob was telling me.
[29:41.000 --> 29:42.260]  I'll take his words from him.
[29:42.340 --> 29:45.960]  We've woken up and we've seen some kind of crazy story about Trump.
[29:46.140 --> 29:56.400]  And if he's trying to control the media by using social media, perhaps maybe he is really an effective communicator because he is controlling the news cycle with this lunacy.
[29:56.800 --> 30:03.560]  I mean, if anybody else did this, you would think it was somebody trying to demonstrate that they're a mentally ill bigot.
[30:03.760 --> 30:06.220]  But this is the president we're talking about.
[30:06.220 --> 30:07.620]  Yeah, but he is a mentally ill bigot.
[30:07.800 --> 30:11.560]  But the thing is, I don't think he's a particular master at controlling.
[30:11.760 --> 30:22.700]  I think it's the media and social networks are just very controllable and are, you know, you can bend them like putty and they're just going along for the ride.
[30:22.700 --> 30:25.000]  And we don't know how to break out of that cycle.
[30:25.300 --> 30:26.100]  That's the thing.
[30:26.280 --> 30:39.880]  You know, we're talking about all this special privilege that he has on Twitter, but we're missing the bigger point that this guy is getting away with things in real life and not paying any price for that.
[30:40.280 --> 30:43.720]  Every day, I wonder, is this going to be the day where he goes over the top?
[30:43.980 --> 30:50.060]  And it seems like it is, but it's never enough, you know, because people will always back him up no matter what he does.
[30:50.480 --> 30:58.020]  And every time that happens, it feels like we get weaker and he gets stronger and he can just get away with anything, whether he says something, does something.
[30:58.020 --> 31:00.300]  And, you know, part of it's funny.
[31:00.460 --> 31:02.160]  Part of it is very entertaining.
[31:02.540 --> 31:09.780]  But when you think about the power this guy has, I was hearing reports about, you know, the suitcase with the football and all that.
[31:09.900 --> 31:14.820]  Now he can basically override people and get things launched very quickly.
[31:15.960 --> 31:17.800]  We're only a couple of steps away from that.
[31:17.920 --> 31:18.900]  Only a couple of steps.
[31:19.100 --> 31:20.740]  And it's frightening.
[31:21.060 --> 31:26.260]  We have an obligation to do something, all of us, to prevent that kind of nightmare.
[31:27.180 --> 31:36.740]  Talking of obligations, there's something about Twitter that really needs reinforcing, I think, whenever we talk about it, which is that, you know, we talk about free speech and censorship and all this sort of stuff.
[31:36.880 --> 31:39.440]  But like Twitter, when you get down to it, it's a private company.
[31:39.520 --> 31:40.160]  It's a walled garden.
[31:40.300 --> 31:42.600]  They get to make their own rules however they like.
[31:42.600 --> 31:49.980]  If they want to write into the rules that Donald Trump's allowed to do whatever he wants and the rest of us, you know, are judged more harshly, that's totally within their rights.
[31:50.280 --> 32:04.820]  But the fact that it seems to have taken such a central position in our media atmosphere right now because of Trump's own love for it, I mean, are we going to say that Twitter themselves now have some advanced social responsibility?
[32:05.060 --> 32:11.400]  Do we want to treat them like some sort of common carrier who have like certain obligations to the public good?
[32:11.680 --> 32:16.400]  Or are we to, I don't know, move on to the next thing, whatever that is.
[32:16.520 --> 32:17.340]  And I like Twitter.
[32:17.460 --> 32:18.000]  I use Twitter a lot.
[32:18.060 --> 32:20.140]  A lot of us here use Twitter in various ways.
[32:20.360 --> 32:24.540]  But the place that's taken in our lives sort of needs some examination now and then.
[32:24.700 --> 32:30.660]  See, I'm looking for more egregious examples of this viewpoint discrimination we're talking about.
[32:30.780 --> 32:31.380]  Is that a phrase?
[32:31.460 --> 32:32.160]  Did we just make that up?
[32:32.280 --> 32:33.500]  No, it's an actual phrase.
[32:33.540 --> 32:34.540]  It's an actual viewpoint discrimination.
[32:34.920 --> 32:36.720]  Yeah, sort of a legal phrase, actually.
[32:36.760 --> 32:40.220]  And, you know, okay, so let's look at somebody like Roger Stone, for instance.
[32:40.460 --> 32:49.740]  Lost his Twitter account because he was threatening Don Lemon at CNN, saying he should be punished for things he said on the network about Trump.
[32:50.160 --> 32:54.660]  And I think they rightly took that to be a call for violence.
[32:54.820 --> 32:56.560]  I know he was getting threats himself.
[32:56.880 --> 32:58.580]  You know, Don Lemon was getting threats.
[32:58.700 --> 32:59.620]  Other people at CNN were.
[33:00.000 --> 33:07.640]  And it's very easy to build mass emotion against a perceived enemy.
[33:08.180 --> 33:11.900]  And I think they rightly saw him doing that and took action quickly.
[33:12.300 --> 33:13.960]  And yeah, he's going to take them to court.
[33:13.980 --> 33:16.000]  He's going to claim it's all about free speech.
[33:16.180 --> 33:18.320]  But like Rob said, you know, they're a private company.
[33:18.560 --> 33:19.800]  They can make that decision.
[33:20.120 --> 33:29.780]  You know, if you run a private company and you have an open house, you can eject people if you don't like what they're saying or doing.
[33:30.360 --> 33:31.600]  The government, it's different.
[33:31.940 --> 33:33.420]  The government, that is true censorship.
[33:33.640 --> 33:37.580]  When the government says you are not allowed to say this, that is the true definition of censorship.
[33:37.820 --> 33:40.840]  If a company says that, that's a company you just don't want to be around anymore.
[33:41.100 --> 33:41.420]  Voltaire?
[33:42.200 --> 33:46.220]  They are a private company, but they're also incorporated by the U.S.
[33:46.340 --> 33:46.580]  government.
[33:47.360 --> 33:49.100]  They get tons of tax breaks there.
[33:49.240 --> 33:50.720]  They take advantage of our infrastructure.
[33:50.940 --> 33:52.340]  So they have to play by our rules.
[33:52.540 --> 33:56.100]  If they... and they're part of our democracy, too.
[33:56.240 --> 34:02.960]  If they become something so integral into our lives that they're a de-factor utility, they should be regulated like a utility.
[34:03.120 --> 34:03.940]  But they're not a utility.
[34:04.260 --> 34:08.320]  I mean, they might be, you know, analogous to it, but they haven't reached that stage yet.
[34:08.520 --> 34:09.420]  They're just very popular.
[34:09.620 --> 34:12.180]  That's a very legalistic decision.
[34:12.500 --> 34:17.720]  And like, if we had a less right-wing court system, they might already be treated that way.
[34:17.820 --> 34:21.300]  In fact, in Europe, they're already starting to treat them by those standards.
[34:21.460 --> 34:24.040]  So it might not be too long until it's treated that way here.
[34:24.220 --> 34:29.860]  I mean, obviously, that has liabilities for... we don't want you to get to the point where the government can encourage them to censor them.
[34:30.060 --> 34:40.620]  But we also don't want to... we don't want them to be censoring people willy-nilly for corporate decision, profit decision, when they are so part of... so integral for our free speech.
[34:40.740 --> 34:41.660]  Well, that's the thing.
[34:41.760 --> 34:42.440]  They shouldn't be.
[34:42.660 --> 34:44.740]  I mean, we should be able to have all kinds of different outlets.
[34:44.820 --> 34:46.880]  Shouldn't be, you know, based on one corporate entity.
[34:47.760 --> 34:49.500]  We should have choices.
[34:49.500 --> 34:54.040]  If we don't like what Twitter is doing, we should be able to go somewhere else and use that platform instead.
[34:54.840 --> 35:12.640]  When we start requiring that they follow particular rules as far as letting people on the network that are detrimental to their network, and they have no say in that, I think that's... it's like nationalizing in the bad way.
[35:12.780 --> 35:13.100]  You know what I mean?
[35:13.260 --> 35:19.460]  But the thing about networks, social networks, they follow network effects, which makes them natural monopolies.
[35:19.580 --> 35:25.060]  Like, because you benefit the more friends you have that are on that social network.
[35:25.660 --> 35:30.780]  Like, you go to mastodon.social, but if your friends aren't using that, there's no benefit of using it.
[35:32.020 --> 35:32.360]  Alex?
[35:32.560 --> 35:32.880]  Sure.
[35:33.020 --> 35:41.720]  I mean, on the one hand here, we have an incredibly powerful tool to censor the president here.
[35:41.940 --> 35:44.960]  You know, if Twitter was able to pick and choose...
[35:44.960 --> 35:45.700]  Censor or censure?
[35:46.720 --> 35:47.160]  Censure.
[35:47.160 --> 35:48.360]  Censure the president.
[35:48.520 --> 35:48.660]  Okay.
[35:48.660 --> 35:49.000]  Yes.
[35:49.720 --> 35:51.760]  And censure the president, actually.
[35:53.700 --> 36:02.980]  If they were able to pick and choose the statements that the president of the United States can broadcast out to the world, that puts them arguably in a position of power over the president.
[36:02.980 --> 36:04.820]  Yeah, but he put them in that position, though.
[36:04.820 --> 36:05.400]  Of course he did.
[36:05.400 --> 36:08.660]  He's the one using them, and he could use a different platform if he wanted to.
[36:08.660 --> 36:09.340]  Of course he does.
[36:09.560 --> 36:20.960]  And companies, when they have established terms of use in terms of service and privacy policies, in any ordinary arena, they are supposed to adhere to those particular policies on a universal basis.
[36:20.960 --> 36:26.620]  And if they do not, then somebody like the FTC could step in and begin to regulate them.
[36:27.060 --> 36:35.800]  And that's how you begin to apply the rule of law to these particular private companies, because they would be engaging in what would be known as a deceptive trade practice.
[36:35.980 --> 36:45.500]  And the FTC has come down even in information security spheres, where companies have said, we have state-of-the-art information security, we secure all of our data, et cetera, et cetera.
[36:45.720 --> 36:47.640]  And it turns out that they don't.
[36:47.740 --> 36:49.200]  Well, then that's a deceptive trade practice.
[36:50.240 --> 37:02.600]  Perhaps the same could be said of Twitter with their particular policies here, where they have policies that limit and regulate the use of graphic and violent imagery, and it's not being applied equally to all of their users.
[37:03.060 --> 37:10.300]  And millions and millions of people go to Trump's Twitter page probably every morning or see him on their feeds.
[37:10.440 --> 37:14.260]  And all of a sudden, they were blasted out with graphic and violent imagery.
[37:14.460 --> 37:27.800]  I'm sure that within the next day or two, there will be some trigger-happy plaintiff's attorney who will probably file a lawsuit for emotional distress against Twitter for allowing this to happen.
[37:27.900 --> 37:28.680]  Wait, you're a lawyer.
[37:28.840 --> 37:30.420]  Can I do that now through you?
[37:30.660 --> 37:31.440]  We could.
[37:31.820 --> 37:32.120]  All right.
[37:32.240 --> 37:33.260]  Let's talk after the show.
[37:33.320 --> 37:34.280]  Were you distressed by that?
[37:34.320 --> 37:35.260]  I'm distressed now.
[37:35.260 --> 37:36.500]  I'm distressed too, actually.
[37:36.720 --> 37:52.840]  I think one thing I'm hearing in this also is the sort of newsworthiness argument and the concept of the platform as a means to distribute news and him using it and saying things that are pertinent and in the public interest.
[37:53.060 --> 37:53.840]  I think it's really important.
[37:54.480 --> 38:11.960]  When you think of also the speech rights in the context of the platform, something that really is important and we should want, and this sort of supports what you've said, Emmanuel, is the importance of accuracy in reporting.
[38:12.220 --> 38:35.520]  So if we judge aspects of Twitter are journalistic or therefore so important that the public has to see it regardless of what it is, or we're going to make these kinds of exceptions, I think, again, to my earlier argument, we should provide it unfiltered and let people know what is being said on the platform and whether it... and so thus,
[38:35.940 --> 38:39.600]  he either fits or is fit for the platform or not.
[38:39.700 --> 38:43.780]  And it sounds like he isn't and they're making a lot of... they're bending over backwards to accommodate him.
[38:44.060 --> 38:51.100]  But this newsworthiness thing, I think you can't kind of be a news organization and kind of not.
[38:51.420 --> 38:52.480]  I mean, I get that it helps.
[38:52.700 --> 39:00.240]  Speech is sort of a lot broader, but from the standpoint of a publication, accuracy matters.
[39:01.320 --> 39:01.860]  All right.
[39:01.960 --> 39:03.300]  So we're going to take phone calls.
[39:03.480 --> 39:07.660]  Area code 347-335-0818.
[39:07.920 --> 39:11.080]  We're talking about Twitter, free speech, Trump, all of that.
[39:11.980 --> 39:13.680]  347-335-0818.
[39:13.820 --> 39:15.100]  We'd like to hear what you have to say.
[39:15.780 --> 39:18.100]  But right now, I'd like to hear what you guys think.
[39:18.260 --> 39:19.360]  Let's take a vote right now.
[39:20.600 --> 39:24.300]  Trump, does he keep his Twitter account or lose his Twitter account?
[39:24.440 --> 39:24.660]  Kyle?
[39:24.900 --> 39:25.260]  Yes or no?
[39:25.680 --> 39:25.960]  Yes.
[39:26.340 --> 39:26.980]  He keeps it?
[39:27.120 --> 39:27.500]  Yes.
[39:27.700 --> 39:27.860]  Okay.
[39:27.900 --> 39:28.200]  Alex?
[39:28.400 --> 39:31.300]  I think he keeps it, but he gets spanked.
[39:31.660 --> 39:32.540]  Well, what does that mean?
[39:32.920 --> 39:39.720]  That the posting should be marked as graphic and he should be branded as somebody who posts graphic images.
[39:39.880 --> 39:40.680]  Can I just add one thing?
[39:40.920 --> 39:51.180]  Your marking idea, actually, when you think of it like alcohol, tobacco side, any of that stuff is deemed so offensive that... or so offensive that we have to have these kinds of pass-throughs.
[39:51.260 --> 39:55.220]  And as you were commenting about that earlier, I realized that's actually kind of a good point.
[39:55.340 --> 40:09.420]  Like, if alcohol is so offensive or so bad physically, I mean, these other issues might deem at least a button or some distinction like a rating, graphics rating with a video game or TV stuff.
[40:09.420 --> 40:14.940]  I'm not saying there's an answer there or that I know, but I definitely see the parallels you were coming up with.
[40:15.040 --> 40:16.980]  That was an interesting idea.
[40:17.300 --> 40:17.540]  Okay.
[40:17.540 --> 40:18.580]  Let's continue with the vote.
[40:18.700 --> 40:18.980]  Voltaire.
[40:19.420 --> 40:19.960]  Keep it.
[40:20.160 --> 40:20.700]  Keep it.
[40:20.820 --> 40:21.120]  Rob?
[40:21.360 --> 40:24.120]  I say he keeps it and keeps showing us how full of crap he is.
[40:24.400 --> 40:27.100]  Well, I say he keeps it too because I don't want to disagree with anybody.
[40:29.000 --> 40:30.300]  So, it's unanimous.
[40:30.360 --> 40:33.140]  Donald Trump gets to keep his Twitter account.
[40:33.840 --> 40:37.460]  And we'd like to hear what you have to say, not just on this issue, but other issues as well.
[40:39.180 --> 40:41.220]  347-335-0818.
[40:41.500 --> 40:42.640]  That is the right line, right?
[40:42.800 --> 40:49.420]  I'll make sure I'm reading the right number because, you know, it's one of these phone numbers that doesn't roll off the tongue like the one we used to have.
[40:50.140 --> 40:52.960]  You remember the phone number from 20 years ago.
[40:53.060 --> 40:53.460]  That's right.
[40:53.560 --> 40:55.900]  And I can't remember this one when I look away from the wall.
[40:56.560 --> 40:58.480]  347-335-0818.
[40:58.800 --> 41:00.960]  Because, you know, I'm not sure this phone is even working.
[41:01.220 --> 41:02.160]  I hope it is.
[41:02.320 --> 41:03.360]  Oh, that would be very sad.
[41:03.440 --> 41:04.000]  That would be sad.
[41:04.100 --> 41:07.220]  But hopefully somebody will test it out for us.
[41:07.240 --> 41:08.540]  I think we only have one line anyway.
[41:09.240 --> 41:12.040]  347-335-0818.
[41:12.660 --> 41:17.080]  And maybe if you're calling that number and getting something else, you'll tweet about it and we'll find out.
[41:17.180 --> 41:17.540]  No, it's ringing.
[41:17.700 --> 41:17.860]  Okay.
[41:18.260 --> 41:19.420]  I jumped the gun.
[41:19.740 --> 41:21.220]  Are you going to take the second call or the first call?
[41:21.320 --> 41:22.300]  There's only one call, Kyle.
[41:22.480 --> 41:22.880]  Only one.
[41:23.180 --> 41:23.640]  Good evening.
[41:23.800 --> 41:24.780]  You're on off the hook.
[41:24.880 --> 41:25.160]  Go ahead.
[41:27.700 --> 41:28.080]  Hello?
[41:28.920 --> 41:29.300]  Hello?
[41:29.540 --> 41:30.060]  Yes, go ahead.
[41:30.080 --> 41:30.700]  You're on the air.
[41:31.540 --> 41:31.840]  Hi.
[41:31.980 --> 41:32.160]  Yeah.
[41:32.720 --> 41:37.260]  I think that he should definitely not have an account.
[41:38.360 --> 41:42.640]  I think he's really just polluting a lot of people's minds.
[41:42.960 --> 41:49.200]  And, you know, there's a lot of uneducated people out there in the world that believe he's the Lord and Savior.
[41:49.440 --> 42:07.840]  And really, in this kind of era of social media, where access, you know, news or fake news, or what he considers fake news to be real news and news to be eight news, the guy is just a complete, you know, I mean, I'll censor myself.
[42:08.040 --> 42:09.800]  I'm like, he can't.
[42:10.620 --> 42:12.140]  He really shouldn't have an account.
[42:12.340 --> 42:12.620]  He should.
[42:12.760 --> 42:15.400]  He's the leader of the United States.
[42:15.880 --> 42:21.680]  He's, you know, he is, he is a puppet master, or he's just maybe he's just a puppet.
[42:22.200 --> 42:24.700]  And but he's just doing a great job at that.
[42:25.140 --> 42:30.420]  So to be, you know, he's just there's, they got to find Geppetto.
[42:31.120 --> 42:35.520]  But Pinocchio is doing a great job at, I guess, ruining people.
[42:35.800 --> 42:41.400]  But, you know, Twitter wasn't really, the value of Twitter was going down until he became president.
[42:41.400 --> 42:56.320]  So the Twitter shares, and no matter what, they won't ban him, because, you know, you know how they say, blank sells, you know, so, you know, he's, he's, he's putting dollars in people's pockets.
[42:56.320 --> 42:59.820]  And if you got stuck in Twitter, you know, you want Trump for president.
[42:59.960 --> 43:02.720]  Well, I didn't know blank sold, but I guess, I guess in that context, it does.
[43:02.840 --> 43:05.740]  But let me just ask you, okay, so let's say, let's say he does lose his account.
[43:05.880 --> 43:07.500]  Let's say that Twitter says enough already.
[43:07.820 --> 43:10.020]  We want you out of this, this network.
[43:10.440 --> 43:11.720]  What do you think happens next?
[43:12.600 --> 43:14.200]  Let's say he does lose his account.
[43:14.340 --> 43:16.000]  Let's say that Twitter says enough already.
[43:17.640 --> 43:19.260]  I'm going through a lengthy delay here.
[43:20.460 --> 43:40.940]  I mean, he could, he could do a great job of being a president and actually not tweeting, you know, like, he could do a lot more, you know, Ricky Martin did a lot more for Puerto Rico as, you know, than he did, you know, like, he's not doing really much for anybody.
[43:41.180 --> 43:41.300]  Yeah.
[43:41.340 --> 43:45.860]  But do you really think that him getting kicked off of Twitter is what he needs to become a good president?
[43:46.140 --> 43:49.380]  You know, like, he's not doing really much for anybody.
[43:49.580 --> 43:51.720]  Yeah, but do you really think that him getting kicked off of Twitter?
[43:51.720 --> 43:54.780]  I don't know why I'm being played through the radio here.
[43:55.820 --> 43:57.440]  He's never going to be a good president.
[43:57.760 --> 43:58.120]  Yeah.
[43:59.400 --> 44:01.680]  But Twitter really isn't for him.
[44:01.940 --> 44:08.340]  I mean, he just, he should go write in a diary and write a book, a real book.
[44:08.780 --> 44:10.820]  Well, that'll be, that'll be something to look forward to.
[44:10.940 --> 44:11.160]  Thanks.
[44:11.320 --> 44:13.320]  Thanks for your input and safe driving.
[44:13.900 --> 44:17.580]  Again, our phone number, 347-335-0818.
[44:17.920 --> 44:18.260]  I don't know.
[44:18.340 --> 44:21.760]  I'm not, I'm not convinced that just taking away his account would solve anything.
[44:21.900 --> 44:32.320]  In fact, you would get all these people that would boycott Twitter then, and it'd be some kind of a campaign that would never end, and it would just be a different forum where we hear the same garbage.
[44:32.520 --> 44:32.740]  Filter.
[44:32.980 --> 44:34.760]  One of our listeners gave us a good compromise.
[44:35.080 --> 44:35.740]  What's a compromise?
[44:37.020 --> 44:45.940]  So, Darkless says that he should be, get to keep the account, but because the FCC is getting rid of neutrality, so they should charge him a higher rate to food from it.
[44:46.260 --> 44:47.080]  I like that.
[44:47.400 --> 44:47.860]  Good evening.
[44:47.960 --> 44:48.880]  You're on Off the Hook.
[44:48.980 --> 44:49.260]  Go ahead.
[44:49.540 --> 44:50.320]  Hi, Emanuel.
[44:50.900 --> 44:54.820]  You know, I never did hear, what happened with Bernie?
[44:55.000 --> 44:56.380]  I didn't, why is he on the show?
[44:56.380 --> 44:57.560]  I didn't really hear that ever.
[44:58.280 --> 44:59.220]  He's not on the show.
[44:59.320 --> 45:01.120]  I mean, a lot of people aren't on the show right now.
[45:01.180 --> 45:02.660]  Do you have anything to say about what we're talking about?
[45:02.660 --> 45:03.460]  Oh, no.
[45:03.660 --> 45:04.920]  I just wondered about that.
[45:05.160 --> 45:05.400]  Okay.
[45:05.600 --> 45:06.240]  Thanks so much.
[45:06.280 --> 45:07.000]  Thanks for your call.
[45:07.160 --> 45:08.520]  Let's try to stick to the topic, people.
[45:09.560 --> 45:10.660]  Yes, Bernie's fine.
[45:10.660 --> 45:11.880]  He's just not on the show right now.
[45:11.980 --> 45:13.380]  Hopefully, we'll hear from him again in the future.
[45:14.420 --> 45:19.360]  347-335-0818 is our phone number.
[45:20.020 --> 45:20.820]  Here's a phone call.
[45:21.040 --> 45:21.680]  Good evening.
[45:21.880 --> 45:22.540]  You're on Off the Hook.
[45:22.620 --> 45:22.900]  Go ahead.
[45:24.700 --> 45:25.220]  Go ahead.
[45:25.520 --> 45:25.720]  Hello.
[45:27.460 --> 45:38.160]  Listen, if he loses his account, okay, if this guy loses his account, all he's going to do is find another platform on which he can attack, from which he can attack Twitter because it's going to be failing.
[45:38.200 --> 45:40.000]  It's going to be no good without him.
[45:40.200 --> 45:43.120]  It's going to be a mess and, you know, that type of thing.
[45:43.280 --> 45:46.020]  But, I mean, he really showed how cuckoo he is.
[45:46.100 --> 45:47.420]  Did you hear his quote?
[45:48.200 --> 45:55.600]  How delusional, how spaced out, how, like, trippy LSD style he sounded when he talked about Pocahontas at the Navajo ceremony?
[45:55.600 --> 45:56.160]  Oh, my God.
[45:56.160 --> 45:58.720]  That was one of the low points of our nation.
[45:58.960 --> 46:00.500]  I mean, oh, my God.
[46:00.660 --> 46:11.140]  To have people such... people of such composure to basically hear that kind of a racial insult standing in front of Andrew Jackson.
[46:11.440 --> 46:13.480]  And there are so many ways that was wrong.
[46:13.900 --> 46:15.660]  And I'm just so embarrassed.
[46:15.800 --> 46:16.280]  So embarrassed.
[46:16.280 --> 46:18.040]  We're used to the racial insult.
[46:18.300 --> 46:30.320]  We are used to him being nasty and saying... because what he does now is he simply says things to people that he knows his base doesn't like so that he can, you know, sort of continue to keep the ball rolling.
[46:30.460 --> 46:33.560]  But the worst thing was he sounded cuckoo.
[46:34.060 --> 46:35.420]  He sounded like he was on drugs.
[46:35.680 --> 46:36.480]  A little bit, yeah.
[46:36.600 --> 46:38.260]  Like he couldn't quite grasp a situation.
[46:38.260 --> 46:39.860]  Like, I really like you guys.
[46:39.940 --> 46:41.920]  You've been around for a long time.
[46:42.100 --> 46:42.840]  Exactly right.
[46:43.300 --> 46:44.580]  It was like an out-of-body experience.
[46:44.580 --> 46:46.680]  It just seemed like he was on something.
[46:46.680 --> 46:47.740]  I just don't know what.
[46:47.740 --> 46:49.640]  He claims never to have taken any kind of drug.
[46:49.680 --> 46:51.540]  I think he's on cuckoo.
[46:51.560 --> 46:53.340]  He's on cuckoo crazy cactus juice.
[46:53.480 --> 46:53.820]  He's back.
[46:54.980 --> 46:57.980]  Well, that's a cheery thought to conclude on.
[46:58.060 --> 46:58.800]  Thank you for your call.
[47:00.080 --> 47:02.060]  347-335-0818.
[47:03.700 --> 47:06.400]  Yeah, you know, there's all kinds of theories we can pass around.
[47:06.520 --> 47:10.800]  I can hardly wait till the books come out after this is all over, assuming we all make it to that stage.
[47:12.200 --> 47:28.120]  But, you know, this says a lot about free speech, the benefits of free speech and the dangers of free speech, because you have irresponsibility and you can easily lead to influencing mobs of people that do horrible things.
[47:28.380 --> 47:29.500]  That does happen.
[47:29.500 --> 47:31.940]  And we might be learning an important lesson here.
[47:32.640 --> 47:33.640]  Voltaire, now we're going to take another call.
[47:33.640 --> 47:38.660]  Another important part of this is that, as one of our listeners, Hannibal C.
[47:38.820 --> 47:42.900]  writes, all his tweets are a part of our public records.
[47:43.040 --> 47:43.360]  That's right.
[47:43.400 --> 47:44.740]  So it can be Freedom of Information Act.
[47:44.820 --> 47:45.560]  National Archive.
[47:45.680 --> 47:46.080]  Good evening.
[47:46.280 --> 47:47.260]  You're on... off the hook.
[47:47.360 --> 47:47.620]  Go ahead.
[47:49.040 --> 47:49.460]  Hello?
[47:49.740 --> 47:50.260]  Yes, go ahead.
[47:50.320 --> 47:50.760]  You're on the air.
[47:51.620 --> 47:52.040]  Yes.
[47:52.840 --> 48:10.540]  I was just thinking about it that this might not actually be an issue just about Twitter itself, but all social media accounts for public officials, that perhaps if you're serving an office, you shouldn't actually be allowed to have a private account,
[48:11.380 --> 48:17.860]  much like Hillary Clinton has trouble using her private emails and so forth.
[48:19.240 --> 48:20.140]  Well, okay.
[48:20.420 --> 48:29.720]  What you're saying is real Donald Trump, his Twitter ID, is his private account as opposed to whatever, the White House... what is it?
[48:29.840 --> 48:30.180]  POTUS.
[48:30.240 --> 48:30.700]  POTUS.
[48:30.780 --> 48:31.240]  Yeah, of course.
[48:31.280 --> 48:31.600]  POTUS.
[48:32.060 --> 48:36.520]  And the POTUS Twitter account isn't quite as crazy as real Donald Trump.
[48:36.540 --> 48:42.380]  But I have the feeling that if he wanted to tweet on POTUS, he could say the same nonsense there.
[48:44.220 --> 48:48.840]  Yeah, I guess he could, but I mean... Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
[48:48.920 --> 48:49.980]  I don't know what the solution is.
[48:51.160 --> 48:51.520]  Yeah.
[48:51.520 --> 49:01.160]  Well, you know, I think it's, you know, it is good to have the unfiltered version because if you edit Trump, you don't see what is really going on.
[49:01.260 --> 49:04.820]  And we're protected from something that we should not be protected from.
[49:04.880 --> 49:05.900]  We should all be seeing this.
[49:06.020 --> 49:09.500]  We should be showing our kids saying this is the danger.
[49:09.660 --> 49:10.840]  This is what you have to avoid.
[49:10.980 --> 49:15.780]  This is something that could really, really screw things up for everybody.
[49:16.260 --> 49:18.960]  And let's work hard to prevent this from happening again.
[49:18.960 --> 49:27.000]  If you make his tweets sanitized and safe for human consumption, people will say in a couple of years, yeah, it wasn't so bad.
[49:27.000 --> 49:27.760]  We made it through that.
[49:27.900 --> 49:28.020]  Okay.
[49:28.120 --> 49:29.040]  He must be a decent guy.
[49:29.260 --> 49:37.660]  And you know, when he, you know, speaks out and says things on his own without somebody editing what he says, you know, what kind of person he really is.
[49:37.800 --> 49:38.720]  And you'll act accordingly.
[49:38.720 --> 49:39.220]  I hope.
[49:40.080 --> 49:40.440]  Yeah.
[49:40.640 --> 49:44.540]  I guess the question is, when, when are people going to say enough is enough?
[49:44.880 --> 49:46.240]  That's my question too.
[49:46.440 --> 49:47.280]  That really is.
[49:47.360 --> 49:47.440]  Yeah.
[49:47.520 --> 49:48.600]  Basta, say something.
[49:49.460 --> 49:52.000]  It's, it's, it's enough is enough.
[49:52.700 --> 49:56.540]  But yes, I guess we're kind of programmed to feel like we don't have power.
[49:56.720 --> 49:59.280]  And you know, in the hacker world, we're told that all the time.
[49:59.420 --> 50:10.060]  And it's always, always proven wrong that when people unite, when people start being clever and, and keeping their sense of humor and, and working towards justice, they win.
[50:10.200 --> 50:12.660]  And they're more powerful than anything you could possibly imagine.
[50:14.380 --> 50:14.580]  Yeah.
[50:15.880 --> 50:18.520]  So hopefully, hopefully that makes you feel better.
[50:18.660 --> 50:18.800]  Thanks.
[50:18.920 --> 50:19.480]  Thanks for your call.
[50:19.600 --> 50:19.760]  Thanks.
[50:20.000 --> 50:21.440]  Thanks for the good thoughts.
[50:21.660 --> 50:23.020]  And we'll take another one.
[50:23.420 --> 50:23.860]  Go ahead, Alex.
[50:23.940 --> 50:24.080]  Yeah.
[50:24.140 --> 50:27.180]  This issue of one is enough, enough.
[50:28.140 --> 50:30.280]  Last January, that's when enough was enough.
[50:30.280 --> 50:31.260]  Yeah, you're telling me.
[50:31.440 --> 50:31.920]  January 25th.
[50:32.000 --> 50:32.820]  That's when I had my fill.
[50:32.980 --> 50:33.500]  Let me tell you.
[50:33.680 --> 50:36.380]  But this issue is, it's a changing target here.
[50:36.380 --> 50:48.160]  Because when this conduct is normalized, when it's okay to post graphic imagery like this on a continual basis, when we get used to it, then Donald Trump himself is changing the threshold of tolerance.
[50:48.380 --> 50:57.300]  With every tweet that goes out like this, he is getting the rest of us more accustomed to his craziness and then pushes the boundaries of our tolerance.
[50:57.300 --> 50:59.700]  Sounds like you're saying he's making the world more tolerant.
[51:00.360 --> 51:05.660]  No, tolerant for this type of insanity and craziness because we're never going to say enough is enough.
[51:06.060 --> 51:08.460]  Because every day, it's more outrageous.
[51:08.760 --> 51:10.120]  It's more outrageous than the day before.
[51:10.120 --> 51:13.580]  I think in a way, first of all, 347-335-0818 is our phone number.
[51:13.820 --> 51:18.160]  I think it's more people want to see how much further it's going to go.
[51:18.260 --> 51:22.640]  It's kind of this morbid curiosity we all have that, yeah, let's keep him on a little longer.
[51:22.680 --> 51:23.560]  Let's see what he does next.
[51:23.760 --> 51:27.400]  I know all the late-night talk show hosts would hate it if he wasn't on Twitter.
[51:27.600 --> 51:28.780]  I agree with that.
[51:28.780 --> 51:30.020]  And for entertainment purposes.
[51:30.600 --> 51:36.200]  One other thing to remember is that he still has a job to do and he's not really getting very much done.
[51:36.340 --> 51:42.720]  He could, I think, be more of a lame duck than our previous president has been described.
[51:43.080 --> 51:52.140]  And in light of that, I think that, yeah, it's going to overshadow him just at this rate.
[51:52.660 --> 51:58.660]  All the things wrong with this presidency versus actual progress.
[51:58.660 --> 52:03.860]  I said over and over again in the lead-up, oh, but, you know, kind of half-heartedly, maybe he'll be the best president ever.
[52:04.060 --> 52:08.960]  Yeah, he's had plenty of time to rise to that or at least part of that.
[52:08.980 --> 52:10.060]  And it's not really happening.
[52:10.160 --> 52:11.620]  Like I said, this is overshadowing it.
[52:11.700 --> 52:12.680]  And I think it will continue to.
[52:12.760 --> 52:13.720]  Let's take another phone call.
[52:13.820 --> 52:14.180]  Good evening.
[52:14.340 --> 52:15.140]  You're on off the hook.
[52:15.220 --> 52:15.420]  Go ahead.
[52:16.420 --> 52:16.780]  Hello?
[52:17.140 --> 52:17.980]  Yes, what's on your mind?
[52:18.060 --> 52:19.360]  Yeah, it's Tom from the Bronx.
[52:19.360 --> 52:20.200]  Tom from the Bronx.
[52:20.520 --> 52:23.260]  Okay, I think you're a good last call to have here.
[52:23.520 --> 52:25.160]  Yeah, I'd like to say this.
[52:25.640 --> 52:36.240]  Donald Trump, when he called the congresswoman or the senator, whatever she is, when he called her Pocahontas...
[52:36.240 --> 52:37.300]  He called her a representative.
[52:37.300 --> 52:38.180]  She's a senator.
[52:38.580 --> 52:44.640]  Well, he represented, but when he called her Pocahontas, it was out of...
[52:45.440 --> 52:48.600]  It was merely out of sarcasm.
[52:49.980 --> 52:52.660]  Of course, standing in front of Robert E.
[52:52.740 --> 52:55.580]  Lee was not a nice thing to do.
[52:55.660 --> 52:56.400]  Well, it wasn't Robert E.
[52:56.460 --> 52:57.480]  Lee, but it might as well have been.
[52:58.260 --> 53:00.960]  Well, who was that that he was standing in front of?
[53:01.080 --> 53:01.560]  Close enough.
[53:01.560 --> 53:02.200]  I mean, the statue.
[53:02.400 --> 53:02.920]  Andrew Jackson.
[53:03.200 --> 53:04.060]  Andrew Jackson.
[53:04.540 --> 53:10.340]  Well, in other words, Andrew Jackson was thought of a real monster by the American Indians, obviously.
[53:12.200 --> 53:17.500]  But that was sarcastic in his part.
[53:17.500 --> 53:19.880]  I don't see that as racist as sarcastic.
[53:19.900 --> 53:31.400]  When you're talking to a bunch of Native Americans honoring them, to use that kind of language to them, I think there's no other way to look at it.
[53:31.600 --> 53:32.660]  Yeah, I understand that.
[53:32.660 --> 53:34.080]  But you see what it is.
[53:34.320 --> 53:48.640]  He took a lot of garbage from Hillary and company, and he's trying to say that this individual, the lady there, was really a phony.
[53:48.860 --> 53:51.660]  He's calling her a phony, too, besides being sarcastic.
[53:51.660 --> 53:53.160]  First of all, I don't think he took enough garbage.
[53:53.440 --> 53:55.700]  I think she should have dumped a whole garbage truck on his lawn.
[53:55.700 --> 53:58.760]  But regardless, is that the point?
[53:58.900 --> 54:04.480]  Is that the time to start criticizing somebody you disagree with when you're supposed to be honoring these people?
[54:05.680 --> 54:07.220]  But you can't help it.
[54:07.280 --> 54:10.800]  He does things in very oddball ways.
[54:10.940 --> 54:12.720]  Yes, on that we can agree.
[54:13.380 --> 54:14.460]  We're out of time, though.
[54:15.040 --> 54:16.740]  Kyle, I think you had one other thing.
[54:16.760 --> 54:19.180]  No, I would just say his intent doesn't matter.
[54:19.400 --> 54:20.580]  It's how it's received.
[54:20.580 --> 54:23.140]  It's how people perceive what he's saying.
[54:23.140 --> 54:26.800]  Yeah, you can argue everything he's ever said.
[54:26.960 --> 54:35.100]  Yeah, you crawl into his little mind and try to understand the sarcasm or the thing he's getting at.
[54:35.200 --> 54:36.240]  But that's not the point.
[54:36.560 --> 54:44.700]  He has to live up to the task of speaking to the mass of our country.
[54:44.700 --> 54:53.480]  And it's bad when most of what you say is perceived as problematic, to say the least.
[54:53.740 --> 54:57.540]  Well, we have ruled here at Off the Hook that Donald Trump gets to keep his Twitter account.
[54:57.700 --> 55:01.080]  And we'll see where that goes in the next couple of weeks.
[55:01.840 --> 55:04.420]  We have some things that we want to tell people, Rob?
[55:04.980 --> 55:07.500]  Yes, first of all, 2,600 meetings this Friday.
[55:07.940 --> 55:11.040]  Go to 2600.com slash meetings to find out where we're starting.
[55:11.040 --> 55:11.580]  This week?
[55:11.840 --> 55:12.360]  This week.
[55:12.740 --> 55:13.480]  How is that possible?
[55:13.620 --> 55:14.520]  Because it's December 1st.
[55:14.520 --> 55:14.740]  It's December 1st.
[55:14.760 --> 55:15.500]  The first Friday.
[55:15.900 --> 55:16.160]  Okay.
[55:16.460 --> 55:19.600]  Also, I'd like to speak about the music we're going to close the show with.
[55:19.600 --> 55:21.720]  It's the Net Neutrality Rap by Dan Bull.
[55:22.260 --> 55:28.860]  And although it sounds like it could have been written last week, it was actually from two years ago, one of the previous occasions when we were up against this same damn thing.
[55:29.460 --> 55:30.000]  Where is it?
[55:30.020 --> 55:30.920]  I don't see it on the computer.
[55:31.880 --> 55:32.080]  Computer.
[55:32.560 --> 55:33.460]  What, it's a different computer?
[55:33.840 --> 55:34.880]  You didn't set me up with...
[55:34.880 --> 55:35.580]  Okay, this one here.
[55:36.160 --> 55:37.080]  And this one over there?
[55:37.200 --> 55:37.420]  Okay.
[55:38.020 --> 55:38.340]  All right.
[55:38.500 --> 55:40.920]  So why don't you set that up one more time?
[55:41.040 --> 55:43.760]  So this is our rap song from last year?
[55:44.180 --> 55:45.260]  From 2015.
[55:46.160 --> 55:46.680]  From two years ago.
[55:46.700 --> 55:48.160]  But, you know, it applies just as much now.
[55:48.540 --> 55:50.520]  The Internet, the Net Neutrality Rap by Dan Bull.
[55:50.760 --> 55:51.260]  All right.
[55:51.380 --> 55:52.680]  We'll see you next week.
[55:52.820 --> 56:01.060]  Write to us, OTH at 2600.com, or tweet us at the Hacker Radio Show on Twitter, unless we lose our Twitter account.
[56:01.360 --> 56:04.140]  And we have Volterra Pohl, right?
[56:04.500 --> 56:04.760]  Yes.
[56:04.920 --> 56:08.020]  Currently, 75% of our listeners think that he should be banned.
[56:08.540 --> 56:09.020]  Wow.
[56:09.320 --> 56:10.440]  And 40 votes so far.
[56:10.440 --> 56:12.140]  So we're out of touch with our listeners, aren't we?
[56:12.560 --> 56:13.040]  Oh, boy.
[56:13.120 --> 56:13.820]  We're going to have to look at that.
[56:15.800 --> 56:16.500]  Have a good night, everybody.
[56:28.060 --> 56:31.760]  The World Wide Web is under attack.
[56:32.220 --> 56:35.540]  They're taking it away, but we're pulling it back.
[56:35.980 --> 56:39.240]  The World Wide Web is under attack.
[56:39.640 --> 56:43.040]  They're taking it away, but we're pulling it back.
[56:50.610 --> 56:52.630]  So the FCC won't let me be.
[56:52.710 --> 56:54.570]  They wanna stack the deck for the ISPs.
[56:54.750 --> 56:56.370]  But we're gonna cover the tricks of our sleeves.
[56:56.570 --> 56:58.210]  It's far too important to leave to police.
[56:58.310 --> 56:59.190]  It could lead to the streets.
[56:59.330 --> 57:00.150]  A breach of the peace.
[57:00.250 --> 57:01.970]  And even decrease our freedom of speech.
[57:02.270 --> 57:06.090]  There's never been a bigger reason to read up and see what the Greek is a Greek for the queen of the sea.
[57:06.270 --> 57:07.110]  The greener the leaf.
[57:07.230 --> 57:07.970]  The sweeter the tree.
[57:08.110 --> 57:10.510]  The quicker they'll chop it down and leave nothing but tree.
[57:10.630 --> 57:11.210]  Stumps to breathe.
[57:11.370 --> 57:12.130]  The damage is done.
[57:12.250 --> 57:13.130]  No refund received.
[57:13.410 --> 57:13.490]  See.
[57:13.670 --> 57:14.790]  The thing about net neutrality.
[57:14.790 --> 57:16.930]  Is unless you get huge salaries.
[57:17.090 --> 57:18.750]  The paramedic will rescue casualties.
[57:18.890 --> 57:20.550]  Till a seed to the rich next use allergies.
[57:20.930 --> 57:22.450]  They'll prioritise cash over concept.
[57:22.610 --> 57:23.410]  Want to send one bit?
[57:23.570 --> 57:24.310]  That's one set.
[57:24.430 --> 57:24.890]  What nonsense.
[57:25.150 --> 57:26.070]  Man it's scaring me.
[57:26.170 --> 57:27.030]  A planet of plenty.
[57:27.230 --> 57:27.990]  Selling scarcity.
[57:28.430 --> 57:29.670]  Innovation paved the way.
[57:30.150 --> 57:31.890]  Now we're made as a paying to take it away.
[57:32.010 --> 57:33.270]  But that ain't gonna make it today.
[57:33.490 --> 57:35.150]  Letting that happen's a major mistake.
[57:35.310 --> 57:37.070]  If blessing was wrapping it'd take it the same.
[57:37.230 --> 57:38.950]  Letting that happen's a major mistake.
[57:39.170 --> 57:40.750]  Tin burners lead baked as a cake.
[57:40.830 --> 57:41.790]  And they're taking the cherry.
[57:41.950 --> 57:42.630]  And the cake.
[57:43.010 --> 57:44.390]  Discrimination is happening today.
[57:44.590 --> 57:44.770]  Don't worry.
[57:44.770 --> 57:46.230]  The facts and the gays in the packet today.
[57:46.390 --> 57:48.110]  So though ethically they're exactly the same.
[57:48.210 --> 57:48.590]  So I.
[57:48.750 --> 57:50.050]  We're not gonna stand for it mate.
[57:50.250 --> 57:50.450]  You are.
[57:50.650 --> 57:51.870]  The f*ck you saying bro?
[57:51.930 --> 57:52.550]  You are mate.
[57:52.810 --> 57:54.050]  The f*ck you saying bro?
[57:54.230 --> 57:54.990]  You are mate.
[57:55.170 --> 58:09.730]  The f*ck you saying bro?
[58:10.110 --> 58:11.250]  You are.
[58:11.810 --> 58:13.690]  I'm from the place John Oliver came from.
[58:14.010 --> 58:15.910]  But no matter where you live you should be singing the same song.
[58:16.090 --> 58:16.530]  Long ass.
[58:16.630 --> 58:17.890]  I'm putting Comcast on blast.
[58:17.990 --> 58:19.710]  Cause they never learn a lesson like they were in the wrong class.
[58:19.830 --> 58:21.590]  Well I'm the professor and I'm sending you with one task.
[58:21.810 --> 58:22.510]  Get a knock back.
[58:22.630 --> 58:23.410]  Like a sharp glass.
[58:23.530 --> 58:25.130]  Waiting for it to meet a cable company.
[58:25.350 --> 58:26.950]  The way they're behaving's unbelievable.
[58:27.430 --> 58:29.630]  Comcast is elite with the devil and it's pissing me off.
[58:29.770 --> 58:30.630]  I'm not even America.
[58:30.850 --> 58:31.530]  Take a peek.
[58:31.730 --> 58:32.630]  See from the evidence.
[58:32.750 --> 58:34.550]  Netflix had to pay a fee to get better licks.
[58:34.670 --> 58:35.470]  It's a shakedown.
[58:35.730 --> 58:36.650]  Communication breakdown.
[58:37.010 --> 58:38.150]  There's a bully in the playground.
[58:38.450 --> 58:40.050]  I had enough of that at school won't lay down.
[58:40.190 --> 58:41.150]  Lay a finger on me.
[58:41.150 --> 58:41.930]  You'll be laid out.
[58:41.970 --> 58:42.690]  Straight out.
[58:42.690 --> 58:45.090]  You'll be laid out.
[58:45.090 --> 58:46.130]  Straight out.
[58:46.310 --> 58:48.930]  You'll be laid out.
[58:49.010 --> 58:52.210]  The world wide web is under a tie.
[58:52.350 --> 58:55.850]  They're taking it away but we're pulling it by.
[58:56.290 --> 58:59.550]  The world wide web is under a tie.
[58:59.650 --> 59:03.210]  They're taking it away but we're pulling it by.
[59:03.930 --> 59:05.270]  Taken it by.
[59:05.930 --> 59:06.870]  Taken it by.
[59:07.570 --> 59:08.630]  Taken it by.
[59:08.770 --> 59:08.770]  Taken it by.
[59:08.810 --> 59:08.870]  Taken it by.
[59:08.870 --> 59:09.570]  Taken it by.
[59:09.570 --> 59:11.770]  And this is the second one.