[00:09.500 --> 00:15.860]  All right, well, it's another action-packed day here at WBAI.
[00:16.940 --> 00:20.260]  Believe it or not, we didn't do anything here in the studio.
[00:20.420 --> 00:24.060]  The computer just has a big hourglass on it, and nothing's coming out of it.
[00:24.720 --> 00:25.600]  It's a moment of silence.
[00:25.600 --> 00:27.480]  Yeah, a moment of silence, that's what it is.
[00:27.580 --> 00:33.440]  But let's not have many more moments of silence, because it's time for us to raise our voices and speak.
[00:34.060 --> 00:35.320]  It's off-the-hook time.
[00:57.710 --> 00:58.230]  Well,
[02:20.630 --> 02:22.450]  I think that computer totally crashed.
[02:22.530 --> 02:24.150]  It's just a blank screen now.
[02:24.310 --> 02:25.750]  Not any sign of life whatsoever.
[02:26.370 --> 02:27.430]  That's what happens.
[02:27.490 --> 02:28.550]  That's what happens to technology.
[02:28.690 --> 02:30.510]  Sometimes things just go kaput.
[02:30.530 --> 02:30.630]  Good.
[02:31.910 --> 02:33.230]  All right, off-the-hook is here.
[02:33.930 --> 02:35.610]  Emmanuel, I'm joining you tonight.
[02:35.790 --> 02:37.470]  Joined also by Alex.
[02:37.810 --> 02:38.270]  Good evening.
[02:38.470 --> 02:38.910]  Hang on.
[02:39.350 --> 02:41.150]  You picked the one microphone I didn't have up.
[02:41.150 --> 02:41.590]  Say that again.
[02:41.890 --> 02:42.610]  Good evening.
[02:42.950 --> 02:43.770]  Okay, and Kyle.
[02:44.410 --> 02:45.290]  Good evening.
[02:45.470 --> 02:45.650]  Hello.
[02:45.650 --> 02:47.150]  All right, your microphone's working perfectly.
[02:48.310 --> 02:55.370]  And here we are for another hour of talk of technology and how things don't always work out the way we expect them to.
[02:56.670 --> 02:57.670]  And we have a lot of updates.
[02:57.810 --> 03:01.990]  We have a lot of things to discuss, to ponder about.
[03:01.990 --> 03:03.110]  Maybe we'll take some phone calls.
[03:03.190 --> 03:03.650]  Maybe not.
[03:03.970 --> 03:04.530]  We'll see.
[03:04.630 --> 03:04.970]  We'll see.
[03:04.970 --> 03:16.690]  We hope that you guys will call us and show your support for the radio station because we have our December fund drive is in full swing.
[03:17.130 --> 03:24.370]  And we're raising money to keep the lights on, to keep the computer booting and various other things.
[03:24.410 --> 03:25.070]  It doesn't have to be painful.
[03:25.170 --> 03:26.270]  It doesn't have to be something that's unpleasant.
[03:26.270 --> 03:26.450]  It doesn't.
[03:27.450 --> 03:28.750]  It's better than commercials.
[03:29.050 --> 03:37.510]  It's better than having to break for five minutes so you can hear all about AT&T or T-Mobile or one of those phone companies that all suck.
[03:37.510 --> 03:39.770]  And we couldn't say that because we have sponsors.
[03:39.770 --> 03:40.950]  We wouldn't be allowed to say that.
[03:41.070 --> 03:41.970]  We can say that here.
[03:42.090 --> 03:42.930]  You can say that here.
[03:42.970 --> 03:45.430]  You can call in and speak your mind.
[03:45.450 --> 03:47.570]  And nobody is going to censor you.
[03:47.810 --> 03:50.790]  So please support us in whatever way you can.
[03:50.790 --> 03:53.750]  Our pledge line is 516-620-3602.
[03:53.750 --> 03:55.630]  So pledge any amount.
[03:55.810 --> 03:59.310]  Ask them what kinds of items they have to thank you with.
[03:59.730 --> 04:03.470]  Or you can go to the website, give2wbai.org.
[04:03.490 --> 04:05.970]  That's give, the number 2, wbai.org.
[04:06.410 --> 04:08.750]  And we have yet another option, too.
[04:08.750 --> 04:12.090]  We can accept your text donations.
[04:12.810 --> 04:14.190]  It's not a donation of text.
[04:14.350 --> 04:15.270]  It's a donation.
[04:15.270 --> 04:24.330]  You text us and then a particular amount gets donated on a, I believe, a monthly basis.
[04:24.750 --> 04:29.070]  Yeah, you'll be contacted and the details will be included in the response.
[04:29.230 --> 04:36.610]  But to get in touch via text, send WBAI to the number 41444.
[04:37.270 --> 04:38.610]  That's a great number.
[04:38.610 --> 04:42.890]  Again, that's a short code for SMS, 41444.
[04:43.610 --> 04:47.590]  Please send the, just the letters, WBAI.
[04:47.730 --> 04:51.030]  And because you're doing it this hour, we'll somehow know, I'm sure.
[04:51.950 --> 05:00.330]  And, yeah, a big part of this fun drive goes to our transmitter fund and all the new and exciting stuff that's going on.
[05:01.610 --> 05:03.410]  Yeah, the computer just went out.
[05:03.490 --> 05:04.890]  The computer just went completely out.
[05:04.970 --> 05:06.730]  We have repair here, fixing the computer.
[05:07.590 --> 05:09.910]  It was playing and then all of a sudden, the hour, oh, it's back.
[05:10.050 --> 05:10.710]  It's triage.
[05:10.910 --> 05:11.350]  You're a genius.
[05:11.530 --> 05:11.710]  Wow.
[05:11.810 --> 05:13.330]  It was one of those ID10T errors.
[05:13.730 --> 05:14.350]  I don't know.
[05:14.470 --> 05:15.230]  I don't know what's going on.
[05:15.370 --> 05:15.650]  Perhaps.
[05:16.530 --> 05:19.590]  We're just going to leave each other alone and I think it'll be fine.
[05:20.490 --> 05:23.470]  But, yes, 41444 is our text number.
[05:23.790 --> 05:28.810]  And if you text WBAI to that, you won't see your bank account suddenly go down to zero.
[05:28.870 --> 05:29.490]  It doesn't work that way.
[05:30.170 --> 05:31.110]  You'll be contacted.
[05:31.470 --> 05:32.750]  You'll have a little dialogue box.
[05:32.750 --> 05:37.330]  You can say how much you want to donate, how frequently, things like that.
[05:37.450 --> 05:38.130]  And think about this.
[05:38.250 --> 05:40.870]  If you donate, say, $5.
[05:41.570 --> 05:41.970]  $5.
[05:42.710 --> 05:43.950]  Not very much at all.
[05:44.050 --> 05:47.850]  But $5 per month, 5 times 12 is what, Alex?
[05:48.790 --> 05:49.190]  72.
[05:49.470 --> 05:50.290]  No, that's not right.
[05:50.650 --> 05:51.050]  86.
[05:51.290 --> 05:52.230]  You're not taking classes.
[05:52.430 --> 05:53.450]  You're supposed to be taking at night.
[05:53.470 --> 05:53.870]  I got it.
[05:54.010 --> 05:54.250]  Okay.
[05:54.690 --> 05:54.990]  All right.
[05:55.770 --> 05:58.250]  Carrying the one has been difficult for me for a long time.
[05:58.490 --> 06:00.070]  $60 all of a sudden.
[06:00.190 --> 06:02.790]  But, you know, over time, and it does add up over time.
[06:02.790 --> 06:06.170]  So people plus time equals lots of money.
[06:06.710 --> 06:07.890]  And the people are out there.
[06:07.930 --> 06:08.470]  We know that.
[06:08.470 --> 06:10.310]  And we know we've got nothing but time.
[06:10.710 --> 06:12.990]  So you just do the mathematics.
[06:13.350 --> 06:15.130]  And you need to practice your math a little bit more.
[06:15.310 --> 06:16.290]  Well, I'm a lawyer.
[06:16.830 --> 06:17.730]  It doesn't matter.
[06:17.810 --> 06:18.790]  Lawyers need to add.
[06:19.090 --> 06:20.390]  How do you cash those checks?
[06:20.390 --> 06:22.170]  We do everything in six-minute increments.
[06:22.310 --> 06:24.750]  Anything other than that is math that we do not understand.
[06:24.990 --> 06:28.390]  Well, what I'm told is a lot of these contributions add up.
[06:28.550 --> 06:29.910]  And that's really what we need.
[06:29.950 --> 06:34.290]  We're not looking necessarily for one or two large donations.
[06:34.290 --> 06:35.990]  It's the small stuff that adds up.
[06:36.110 --> 06:37.850]  That stuff, it's all welcome.
[06:37.850 --> 06:38.510]  Don't get me wrong.
[06:38.510 --> 06:39.930]  We're not looking for that either.
[06:39.930 --> 06:51.770]  If you've got tons of money and would like to submit something at a specific value other than what we've offered here as a suggestion, please, by all means, you're welcome to.
[06:52.170 --> 07:11.250]  But certainly, the little monthly BAI Buddy stuff or just 10 or 20 bucks from 100 people is a lot of money, whether that's recurring, whether that's just a one-time thing before the end of the year here as you're going through and doing your giving.
[07:11.550 --> 07:14.270]  There are people out there that can't afford 20 bucks a month.
[07:14.510 --> 07:15.290]  I know there are people out there.
[07:15.410 --> 07:16.730]  And do the math on that.
[07:16.870 --> 07:18.890]  Now, I'm not going to ask you, Alex, because that's really complex.
[07:18.890 --> 07:19.430]  Thank you.
[07:19.650 --> 07:20.850]  But 20 times...
[07:20.850 --> 07:21.470]  Well, here's my trick.
[07:21.630 --> 07:23.430]  20 times 10, you do that first.
[07:23.630 --> 07:23.810]  Right.
[07:24.010 --> 07:24.950]  And that's 200.
[07:24.950 --> 07:27.110]  And then you add the two remaining months.
[07:27.330 --> 07:28.890]  So you add 40 to that.
[07:28.990 --> 07:33.970]  So $240 a year if you donate $20 a month.
[07:34.210 --> 07:36.310]  And imagine if 10 people did that.
[07:37.150 --> 07:40.150]  $240 times 10, $2,400.
[07:40.450 --> 07:45.870]  You see how quickly we can raise a good amount of money and also learn some arithmetic.
[07:45.870 --> 07:47.530]  That's the base 10 system, isn't it?
[07:47.650 --> 07:48.890]  I'm not sure about that.
[07:49.170 --> 07:50.510]  But yeah, probably something.
[07:50.590 --> 07:51.050]  I've heard about it.
[07:51.230 --> 07:51.490]  Uh-huh, uh-huh.
[07:52.010 --> 07:52.370]  It's...
[07:52.370 --> 07:54.370]  Now, what if 23 people did it?
[07:54.530 --> 07:55.210]  Can you do that?
[07:55.450 --> 07:56.290]  Can you figure that out?
[07:56.430 --> 07:57.550]  I hate you so much.
[07:58.550 --> 07:59.650]  Yeah, it's more money.
[07:59.850 --> 08:03.990]  It's a lot of money if people donate little bits.
[08:04.790 --> 08:05.930]  And lots of people do that.
[08:06.030 --> 08:09.010]  That's how WBAI has come to exist over the years.
[08:09.110 --> 08:10.150]  I mean, think about it, too.
[08:10.150 --> 08:15.570]  I mean, that's what made all the difference that ultimately didn't carry the day, unfortunately, because of some other darker forces.
[08:15.730 --> 08:24.090]  But with respect to the Bernie Sanders campaign, it was small donations from a large number of people that really carried him to where he ended up.
[08:24.310 --> 08:25.510]  Yeah, and it's a combination.
[08:25.830 --> 08:28.210]  I mean, you can't really just have one or the other.
[08:28.470 --> 08:32.550]  I think, you know, whatever people can give, it adds up.
[08:32.670 --> 08:35.430]  And it's the amalgamation of all of it that makes this happen.
[08:35.430 --> 08:41.410]  You need the small donations, you need the large donations, and, of course, you need the bank heist that we don't talk about on the air.
[08:41.570 --> 08:49.050]  But, you know, things like that to get the money flowing in and keep the place going.
[08:49.190 --> 08:54.690]  Kyle mentioned something important before, too, that most of the money that is being raised during this fundraiser is going to go over to the transmitter fund.
[08:54.770 --> 08:56.270]  And that's extremely important, too.
[08:56.930 --> 09:03.190]  If we think about the posture that WBAI is in with the lawsuit, they lost summary judgment, hopefully will appeal, et cetera, et cetera.
[09:03.190 --> 09:12.350]  We've been through this already, but in terms of making the settlement, keeping the station on the air, a great show of force by the listeners is what is needed.
[09:12.610 --> 09:21.390]  You know, we're talking about the court of public opinion, and WBII listeners, WBII listeners voting right now with their pocketbooks, a tiny little bit helps.
[09:21.810 --> 09:24.350]  A dollar a day would help everybody.
[09:24.350 --> 09:37.610]  It would help the station show to the Empire State Realty Trust that this is a serious station with a serious listener base that is willing to put their money quite literally where their mouths are and stand up for the station.
[09:38.390 --> 09:40.550]  And it will encourage settlement.
[09:40.550 --> 09:47.370]  The more money that we are able to raise during this fundraiser drive will encourage this type of settlement because it will be a gigantic show of force.
[09:47.370 --> 09:59.070]  So just in terms of numbers, it's so important for small donations to come in right now because we need to demonstrate that we can settle this lawsuit, that we can continue to exist.
[09:59.570 --> 10:07.330]  And as Kyle mentioned, you know, one or two large donations would be wonderful, but right now we need a show of force.
[10:07.450 --> 10:09.490]  We need massive numbers to donate.
[10:09.490 --> 10:21.650]  A lot of people, I think, at this time of year are looking for places to maybe contribute, especially if it's something that they believe in, that is aligned with stuff they would like to see in their community.
[10:21.770 --> 10:24.750]  Maybe they don't even agree with it necessarily, but they support speech.
[10:24.750 --> 10:35.010]  They support an outlet like this that has really creative and interesting programming and guests and stories that just simply don't get told elsewhere.
[10:35.010 --> 10:42.690]  And that's part of what Pacifica is about, that same kind of storytelling and news and information.
[10:43.290 --> 10:48.110]  That network is really a unique and vital thing.
[10:48.250 --> 10:54.130]  And any amount really is monumental to the cause itself.
[10:54.330 --> 10:56.870]  And it's also really important.
[10:57.290 --> 10:59.470]  Remember, we're a nonprofit.
[10:59.470 --> 11:04.410]  This is a great way to give to a nonprofit.
[11:05.390 --> 11:12.810]  I don't know how many people actually do that, but a lot of people, they have a set amount maybe in their head that they're giving to charity during the year.
[11:13.070 --> 11:17.430]  I can probably guess about how much I've maybe contributed.
[11:17.950 --> 11:23.890]  And I think a lot of people, they know the organizations that they support, political or not.
[11:23.890 --> 11:28.570]  But, you know, it's an expression of your interests.
[11:28.730 --> 11:34.810]  And those organizations are working when you maybe can't contribute to something that's really important.
[11:34.830 --> 11:36.070]  So this is one of those causes.
[11:36.090 --> 11:40.590]  And if you believe in what we do and want to hear more of it, now's the time.
[11:40.590 --> 11:45.930]  You can express that with your pledge at give to WBAI.org.
[11:45.950 --> 11:51.930]  Or you can contact our operators at 516-620-3602.
[11:51.930 --> 11:52.730]  But it's crucial.
[11:53.030 --> 11:57.670]  And so if there's any nonprofit you're going to give to, WBAI should be on that list.
[11:57.830 --> 11:58.450]  It's one of them.
[11:58.530 --> 11:59.530]  It's one of the big ones.
[11:59.630 --> 12:01.570]  And it's the main reason we're here.
[12:01.890 --> 12:04.450]  Frequency, the license, everything is so crucial.
[12:04.710 --> 12:19.450]  And when you express that, we're able to redouble our efforts and come back knowing that the soul, the foundation of this place is vibrant and here to stay and forge ahead.
[12:19.630 --> 12:21.410]  Well, very well put, my good man.
[12:21.410 --> 12:23.930]  And let me pick up on something that you had said.
[12:23.970 --> 12:24.970]  You mentioned it's the end of the year.
[12:25.090 --> 12:26.310]  This is really, really important.
[12:26.310 --> 12:29.410]  And it's a good reason why a lot of organizations are asking for your money right now.
[12:29.490 --> 12:33.730]  Because this is the last chance you have to decrease your taxable income by the end of the year.
[12:33.730 --> 12:43.790]  So if you're looking for a place to which to donate money to decrease your taxable income before this insane tax bill goes over to the house, etc.
[12:43.890 --> 12:44.930]  Let's not even get into it.
[12:45.030 --> 12:48.430]  But WBAI is an extremely worthy recipient of that money.
[12:48.570 --> 12:50.650]  It's a 501c3 organization, if I'm correct.
[12:50.850 --> 12:53.270]  All the money is tax deductible.
[12:53.470 --> 12:57.590]  This is one of your last chances to give to WBAI, even a very small amount.
[12:57.590 --> 13:03.110]  But hey, if you want to give a large amount and take a giant chunk off your taxable income, that's wonderful.
[13:03.350 --> 13:04.470]  We would love to take it.
[13:04.550 --> 13:06.390]  And you'd be helping out at an extremely worthy cause.
[13:06.550 --> 13:10.290]  I can't say I have a lot, but I do like to give to different organizations.
[13:10.290 --> 13:12.250]  I think that's a strategy some people use.
[13:12.470 --> 13:15.870]  You know, a couple different organizations that you believe in.
[13:15.870 --> 13:26.030]  And I really hope WBAI, and you're thinking of off the hook when you do it, but I hope WBAI is on people's lists of places that they can give a couple bucks to.
[13:26.150 --> 13:35.090]  Like we said, all of it, when everyone acts and expresses their support in this way, the magic of BAI continues on.
[13:35.090 --> 13:47.170]  And what we can bring to you as far as news from technology and the communications perspective for hackers, it's a labor of love and something that we want to be able to do in the future.
[13:47.470 --> 13:48.190]  Okay, I'm back.
[13:48.490 --> 13:53.850]  I was just off doing some calculations in the corner, and I came up with something rather interesting.
[13:54.030 --> 13:56.590]  I think you both might want to pay attention to this.
[13:56.670 --> 13:56.950]  Alex?
[13:58.390 --> 13:59.210]  I'm paying attention.
[13:59.330 --> 13:59.710]  Are you here?
[13:59.790 --> 14:00.130]  Are you with me?
[14:00.170 --> 14:00.670]  I am indeed.
[14:00.830 --> 14:03.470]  Looking at your phone there and not sure I have your full attention.
[14:03.670 --> 14:04.110]  I'm just doing math.
[14:04.110 --> 14:05.410]  Well, math is the theme today.
[14:05.530 --> 14:05.930]  I know that.
[14:06.170 --> 14:08.550]  But this is something I think you might find interesting.
[14:08.910 --> 14:13.210]  It has to do with our $1.8 million debt to the Empire State Building.
[14:13.450 --> 14:13.890]  Okay.
[14:14.270 --> 14:16.630]  And I just found out a way to pay it.
[14:17.570 --> 14:18.190]  Pray tell.
[14:18.670 --> 14:20.870]  Well, how many floors are there in the Empire State Building total?
[14:22.110 --> 14:22.550]  17.
[14:22.930 --> 14:24.050]  Where are you going with this?
[14:24.230 --> 14:26.530]  Okay, I'll just get to the answer.
[14:26.770 --> 14:27.650]  102 floors.
[14:27.830 --> 14:28.690]  102 floors.
[14:28.770 --> 14:29.090]  Okay.
[14:29.250 --> 14:31.330]  The observatory is on the 86th floor, but there's another one on...
[14:31.330 --> 14:32.230]  102 floors.
[14:32.230 --> 14:42.070]  If 102 people every day donated $50 to this radio station for a year, that would be it.
[14:42.350 --> 14:45.150]  That would be all we need to pay $1.8 million.
[14:45.470 --> 14:45.990]  Think about that.
[14:46.290 --> 14:49.610]  102 people, one for every floor of the Empire State Building, paying 50 bucks.
[14:49.810 --> 14:51.630]  I'm sure that number has significance too.
[14:51.890 --> 14:55.910]  For 365 days, do the math, you get $1.8 million.
[14:56.470 --> 14:59.090]  And that solves the problem, or that problem anyway.
[14:59.370 --> 15:01.150]  That sounds so simple when you lay it out.
[15:01.290 --> 15:10.750]  I mean, I feel like we should organize that somehow, or automate it, or figure out some way we can have a person pay $50.
[15:11.630 --> 15:13.470]  One of 102 people pay $50 every day.
[15:13.470 --> 15:15.550]  We're not asking them to pay $50 every day.
[15:15.750 --> 15:17.570]  One person, $50 for the year.
[15:17.650 --> 15:18.010]  That's it.
[15:18.050 --> 15:19.130]  And I go to the next person.
[15:19.430 --> 15:20.510]  102 people every day.
[15:20.510 --> 15:22.990]  We find 102 people to pay $50 every day.
[15:23.650 --> 15:24.330]  Every day.
[15:24.710 --> 15:27.590]  And then, at the end of the year, we've paid the whole thing off.
[15:27.670 --> 15:31.290]  Yeah, you don't have to be the same person, necessarily.
[15:31.550 --> 15:33.530]  It's just as long as someone's there to fill in.
[15:33.610 --> 15:36.910]  Yeah, you could come back and contribute on another day.
[15:36.950 --> 15:42.430]  It's similar to doing fill-ins at a radio station, except you're filling in with your contribution.
[15:42.750 --> 15:43.090]  Yes.
[15:43.090 --> 15:50.930]  If you were to do this once a month, $50 a month, then that's 11 less people that have to...
[15:50.930 --> 15:51.870]  Well, there's other calculations.
[15:52.070 --> 15:53.070]  You could work out the math.
[15:53.370 --> 15:54.310]  And that's just as doable.
[15:54.610 --> 15:58.910]  What about if 204 people donated $25 a day?
[15:59.410 --> 16:00.290]  There's not enough time.
[16:00.450 --> 16:01.470]  We're only on for an hour.
[16:01.670 --> 16:04.690]  But yeah, there's all kinds of other ways you can get there.
[16:04.870 --> 16:07.030]  The thing I'm trying to impart is that we should not give up.
[16:07.110 --> 16:07.770]  It seems dire.
[16:08.070 --> 16:09.930]  Lots of things seem dire these days.
[16:10.810 --> 16:13.430]  They'll be known as the dire days, I guess, when we look back on them.
[16:14.130 --> 16:15.330]  But there is hope.
[16:15.630 --> 16:16.370]  There is always hope.
[16:16.570 --> 16:19.730]  And in fact, tickets for Hope are going on...
[16:20.210 --> 16:20.870]  It's a segue.
[16:21.170 --> 16:26.170]  Tickets for the Hope Conference, they're going on sale next Tuesday at 12, 12 p.m.
[16:26.170 --> 16:27.870]  on the 12th day of the 12th month.
[16:28.910 --> 16:30.790]  And they'll be gone in about one second.
[16:30.790 --> 16:31.450]  I know that.
[16:31.810 --> 16:33.350]  I'm not even going to try to get one.
[16:33.490 --> 16:35.170]  Well, you shouldn't try because you're Hope staff.
[16:36.070 --> 16:38.190]  Just buy it at the usual price later on.
[16:38.270 --> 16:38.470]  Okay.
[16:38.630 --> 16:39.670]  This is the discounted price.
[16:39.930 --> 16:41.170]  And it'll be next Tuesday.
[16:41.310 --> 16:42.930]  Is it the same alleyway that I have to go down?
[16:43.150 --> 16:43.510]  Probably.
[16:43.690 --> 16:44.290]  Most likely.
[16:44.590 --> 16:45.450]  I don't think we got a new one.
[16:45.890 --> 16:47.990]  So that's exciting news, too.
[16:48.070 --> 16:52.070]  The Hope Conference, of course, being Hackers on Planet Earth, takes place every two years here in New York City.
[16:52.410 --> 16:56.050]  This one will be on July 20th through 22nd.
[16:56.190 --> 16:56.950]  That is correct.
[16:57.310 --> 16:59.570]  We'll be opening up speaker submissions fairly soon as well.
[16:59.670 --> 17:00.430]  That's going to be something.
[17:00.650 --> 17:02.570]  I expect all kinds of amazing talks.
[17:02.730 --> 17:02.870]  Yes.
[17:02.950 --> 17:03.830]  What will people...
[17:03.830 --> 17:04.030]  Hmm.
[17:04.550 --> 17:06.370]  What will they be talking about this year?
[17:06.370 --> 17:07.510]  What won't they be talking about?
[17:08.250 --> 17:11.790]  The hacker world is really an amazing place.
[17:12.050 --> 17:14.690]  In fact, we're going to a pretty big conference this year.
[17:14.770 --> 17:15.610]  We haven't been to in a while.
[17:15.810 --> 17:16.230]  True.
[17:16.470 --> 17:19.290]  To the CCC over in Leipzig.
[17:19.730 --> 17:20.790]  Not Hamburg.
[17:21.350 --> 17:23.070]  Not Berlin, but Leipzig.
[17:23.610 --> 17:24.950]  And I hope I'm pronouncing that right.
[17:25.190 --> 17:25.750]  Yeah, we...
[17:25.750 --> 17:27.630]  It might be Leipzig, but I think it's Leipzig.
[17:27.750 --> 17:31.050]  Yeah, we're still waiting on confirmation on the pronunciation of this town.
[17:31.170 --> 17:36.310]  But it is a temporary spot because the venue, I guess, is being rebuilt or something.
[17:36.470 --> 17:38.030]  But we're going to find out when we're there.
[17:38.030 --> 17:43.410]  But we're going to definitely be taking the...
[17:44.330 --> 17:47.090]  Figuring out with the tone what people are...
[17:47.090 --> 17:49.970]  How their impressions of the year were.
[17:50.270 --> 17:51.890]  I think everyone is...
[17:51.890 --> 17:56.410]  Yeah, we'll figure out what went wrong and what's probably going to go wrong next year.
[17:58.230 --> 18:02.970]  And yeah, there will be some, I think, inspiration too.
[18:03.510 --> 18:10.310]  Because I think there's a lot of people that by getting together in these ways, get to share and get reinvigorated.
[18:10.470 --> 18:11.430]  And it's been a while.
[18:11.610 --> 18:12.750]  We've not yet...
[18:12.750 --> 18:14.370]  We've not been in a while.
[18:14.490 --> 18:15.290]  So it's good for us.
[18:15.550 --> 18:22.230]  The chaos congress takes place every year on December 27th, 28th, 29th, and 30th.
[18:22.390 --> 18:24.030]  Yeah, it's kind of an annual thing.
[18:24.590 --> 18:25.990]  Doesn't matter what day of the week that is.
[18:25.990 --> 18:26.790]  It's always those dates.
[18:27.010 --> 18:27.190]  It's always.
[18:27.350 --> 18:28.150]  It's consistent.
[18:28.550 --> 18:33.010]  It's the one thing that just is a constant throughout.
[18:33.390 --> 18:36.770]  And if you want to go this year, you can't because it sold out.
[18:37.070 --> 18:38.730]  It sold out really quickly too.
[18:38.890 --> 18:41.270]  And that was a frustrating experience for us trying to get tickets.
[18:41.330 --> 18:41.750]  But we did.
[18:41.850 --> 18:42.610]  We were able to.
[18:43.750 --> 18:45.890]  And it's like Hope times 10.
[18:46.210 --> 18:48.490]  They have a huge venue and a lot of people.
[18:48.630 --> 18:49.890]  How long has it been going on?
[18:50.010 --> 18:50.730]  Since 1984.
[18:50.850 --> 18:52.590]  Believe it or not, that was the first one.
[18:52.750 --> 18:53.190]  That's incredible.
[18:53.190 --> 18:54.710]  But I think there are only three people at that one.
[18:54.710 --> 18:56.470]  And it's grown steadily since.
[18:56.890 --> 18:57.450]  Just amazing.
[18:57.570 --> 18:59.090]  There were more than three people, but it wasn't very big.
[18:59.710 --> 19:00.090]  Incredible.
[19:00.230 --> 19:00.790]  I've never been.
[19:00.910 --> 19:02.810]  I'm always jealous every year when you guys go.
[19:02.930 --> 19:04.390]  It's just tough to get away during a holiday.
[19:04.410 --> 19:06.350]  Get ready to be jealous because this one's going to be really good.
[19:06.450 --> 19:07.250]  I'm sure it will be.
[19:07.270 --> 19:08.910]  You definitely can't go because it's sold out.
[19:09.650 --> 19:10.030]  Unless.
[19:10.810 --> 19:11.190]  No.
[19:11.430 --> 19:12.090]  No, that wouldn't work.
[19:13.470 --> 19:14.150]  What were you thinking?
[19:14.150 --> 19:19.690]  But what you can do, what you can do, you can stream all the talks because they do amazing streaming.
[19:19.870 --> 19:26.150]  In fact, it inspired us, our friends at the Internet Society and Kyle getting us a 10 gigabit bandwidth.
[19:26.570 --> 19:28.070]  A lot of it is very German inspired.
[19:28.370 --> 19:39.870]  What they do with the conference is they have every single room broadcasting and you can sit at home on your computer and pretend you're there and see it in full HD quality.
[19:40.310 --> 19:41.250]  It's really incredible.
[19:41.250 --> 19:42.730]  You can go from one room to the other.
[19:42.890 --> 19:47.930]  You can meet people in there and hear the Club Mate bottles falling on the floor because that always happens at these German conferences.
[19:48.790 --> 19:50.210]  And it's great.
[19:50.390 --> 19:51.630]  We've done that many times too.
[19:51.830 --> 19:52.070]  Yeah.
[19:52.190 --> 19:55.750]  Actually, now that you mention it, we've done that in years past when we weren't there.
[19:55.870 --> 19:57.970]  But it's great to be there virtually.
[19:58.230 --> 19:58.590]  Yes.
[19:58.890 --> 20:01.710]  And that is the kind of thing that hackers can do.
[20:01.810 --> 20:05.090]  They can bring that stuff to the wider world.
[20:05.310 --> 20:12.970]  And yeah, either way, whether they're in person or not, you'll hear about it and it will be quite an exciting thing to participate in.
[20:13.190 --> 20:15.470]  So what have you guys hacked this week?
[20:15.690 --> 20:16.430]  Oh, yes.
[20:16.690 --> 20:17.510]  New feature.
[20:17.850 --> 20:18.730]  Such a new feature.
[20:18.770 --> 20:21.890]  We don't yet have the theme for it, but it's called Hack of the Week.
[20:22.130 --> 20:31.110]  And what it means, it's one of us here in the studio has to hack something within the last week or the last time we were on the air.
[20:31.110 --> 20:39.030]  Now, that's why a lot of people aren't here this week, because they're trying to hack something right now for next week.
[20:41.350 --> 20:43.350]  So we came up with something.
[20:43.530 --> 20:49.450]  Actually, Kyle, I think you're the first person in our little group to actually have hacked something this week.
[20:49.450 --> 20:54.170]  And no, my hat's off to you, really, because this was a big deal, a really big deal.
[20:54.770 --> 21:07.030]  You might know, you might remember, we've talked about this in the past, we have one of the lying Volkswagens from Germany, the diesel cars that said they were not polluting when actually they were.
[21:07.070 --> 21:16.270]  And we had to go through this whole big rigmarole with Volkswagen to get them to retrofit the car with something else and give us a check for our trouble as well.
[21:16.350 --> 21:17.490]  That was kind of, that was all right.
[21:17.950 --> 21:22.710]  But we've been doing other things with the car up until then.
[21:22.710 --> 21:24.770]  And we've been using biofuel in the car.
[21:25.090 --> 21:28.890]  Yeah, actually, we use New York City biodiesel.
[21:29.110 --> 21:32.010]  And it's, it's, it's kind of neat.
[21:32.170 --> 21:37.530]  And it was something we were doing way before we even knew about any of the emissions stuff going on.
[21:37.710 --> 21:41.030]  If you ate in a restaurant in New York City, we might have burned some of your...
[21:41.030 --> 21:43.750]  We probably burned your fryer grease.
[21:43.950 --> 21:53.710]  And New York City, if, if, you know, anybody would, would know, there's so many restaurants and stuff that it's, it's actually a really good place to harvest used fryer oil.
[21:53.850 --> 21:54.370]  Uh-huh, uh-huh.
[21:54.450 --> 21:59.270]  So there's an entire economy of trucks and guys and containers.
[21:59.590 --> 22:00.970]  And, and yeah, so that goes on.
[22:01.090 --> 22:05.630]  And I've experienced with it and I figured out where we could buy some.
[22:05.630 --> 22:13.590]  And so we, we, um, built a, a bit of a, a dispensing container that is actually powered by, uh, solar.
[22:13.930 --> 22:23.930]  And, and so we did a couple sort of kind of trivial things, um, that are simple with, with cars and, you know, doing our own car stuff a little bit differently.
[22:24.990 --> 22:38.070]  And this fuel, apparently they got mad at us because when they fixed this emissions thing on the car, they didn't like, uh, the type of fuel we were using, or it was messing up the calibration.
[22:38.350 --> 22:38.810]  Well, they could tell.
[22:38.890 --> 22:40.230]  First of all, we did this for years.
[22:40.270 --> 22:45.230]  You, you set up kind of like a mini gas station, uh, and, uh, and, and we had no problem with this.
[22:45.350 --> 22:46.130]  Mileage was great.
[22:46.230 --> 22:47.190]  The car ran perfectly.
[22:47.530 --> 22:50.370]  And it wasn't until they, they did the modification.
[22:50.750 --> 22:55.330]  Uh, they, they saw the fuel, the, there's a particular color that they were able to tell.
[22:55.530 --> 22:57.310]  It's an amber, it's an amber color.
[22:57.310 --> 23:02.870]  And I think a lot of people, uh, they mistake it for, uh, I think, dyed fuel or something.
[23:02.990 --> 23:05.910]  But the thing is we, we paid for, uh, highway fuel.
[23:06.050 --> 23:06.170]  Right.
[23:06.230 --> 23:09.150]  So it was, um, we pay the appropriate taxes and everything.
[23:09.350 --> 23:09.470]  Yeah.
[23:09.550 --> 23:10.590]  And it was not dyed.
[23:10.770 --> 23:10.890]  Yeah.
[23:10.930 --> 23:11.750]  It wasn't home fuel.
[23:11.970 --> 23:17.070]  Some, some people do this where they use home heating oil, but not oil, uh, diesel.
[23:17.290 --> 23:18.670]  There is, well, there's bio heat.
[23:18.890 --> 23:20.070]  And they avoid the taxes that way.
[23:20.130 --> 23:20.890]  And that's not what we were doing.
[23:21.130 --> 23:21.230]  Yeah.
[23:27.310 --> 23:29.350]  It can stain your fuel system.
[23:29.510 --> 23:37.990]  Well, anyway, they mistook, uh, our, our, um, fuel for something else and sort of said, oh yeah, it's, it's, you know, blaming it on this.
[23:38.130 --> 23:49.150]  And what we realized is, um, the properties of the fuel that we were using didn't really work with, uh, the type of, uh, emission system that our car was set up with and the, the newer stuff.
[23:49.390 --> 23:54.250]  So basically we were getting all these codes and, and basically the car was in like a safe mode.
[23:54.250 --> 24:00.030]  Well, a flashing light came on that, that, that indicated that, um, uh, particulates were building up.
[24:00.330 --> 24:00.610]  Yeah.
[24:00.870 --> 24:08.610]  And in order for us to fix that, uh, the, the dealer wanted us to pay them like up to a thousand bucks just to like flush the tank.
[24:08.610 --> 24:12.150]  And, and we knew it wasn't, uh, it wasn't anything that was damaging the engine.
[24:12.410 --> 24:21.410]  We knew that, uh, we just had to, um, get a, a, a, a lower percentage in there and everything would be fine, but they wouldn't, uh, do that for us.
[24:21.490 --> 24:23.850]  They wanted us to, uh, you know, they wanted to empty the tank.
[24:23.850 --> 24:24.250]  Yeah.
[24:24.430 --> 24:25.890]  And then we weren't going to do that.
[24:26.070 --> 24:26.310]  Yeah.
[24:26.450 --> 24:30.170]  It was, it was, and this is why it's, it's kind of, it's a simple thing.
[24:30.570 --> 24:37.010]  Anybody who's a independent shop or people that work on their cars, it's probably fairly common, but for us, we haven't been doing this.
[24:37.110 --> 24:37.350]  Okay.
[24:37.370 --> 24:42.170]  We have a lot of, a lot of, uh, robots and computers that break and that we are fixing.
[24:42.190 --> 24:43.670]  We have enough little projects.
[24:43.670 --> 24:57.890]  So, uh, it'd been, uh, a long time we were dealing with this sort of gauging, you know, what the dealer is about, but the long and the short of it is we finally bought our own tool so that we could speak to our vehicle's computer system.
[24:57.890 --> 24:59.190]  And that's the crux of it.
[24:59.290 --> 25:13.730]  We, we decided, okay, we know enough about how both the company is going to behave and how, what we're doing specifically with this, this, um, machine, but we wanted more control.
[25:13.850 --> 25:22.630]  We want more, um, access to information, actual numbers and, and, um, the ability to modify our own fuel system in the future.
[25:23.230 --> 25:34.630]  And by, by, um, basically getting something that was a fraction of what they wanted to charge, the dealership wanted like a thousand dollars or something to do several things with a computer system, as well as take all the fuel that we had put in the car.
[25:34.810 --> 25:41.430]  Well, we decided, no, why don't you just go ahead and give us a tune up and we'll, we'll, we'll deal with the fuel.
[25:41.570 --> 25:45.210]  So we, we basically burned it up in, in limp mode, which is probably foolish.
[25:45.470 --> 25:46.510]  The light stayed on.
[25:46.690 --> 25:47.990]  Uh, we had a flashing particular light.
[25:47.990 --> 25:52.030]  And then after you travel with that for a little while, the check engine light comes on.
[25:52.130 --> 25:53.290]  It's just, it's a timer thing.
[25:53.450 --> 25:56.510]  If you go a certain number of miles, that light just comes on.
[25:56.610 --> 26:00.610]  So I think we had a total of three lights on at the same time, which was kind of annoying.
[26:00.710 --> 26:03.950]  And as you said, the car is in limp mode, which means you can't go past a certain speed.
[26:04.010 --> 26:05.150]  You don't accelerate very well.
[26:05.270 --> 26:06.370]  It was really depressing.
[26:06.390 --> 26:09.710]  Actually, the last couple of weeks, it was just like, okay, what is going on?
[26:09.810 --> 26:10.930]  This is a total waste.
[26:11.150 --> 26:12.790]  The dealer's not going to support you.
[26:12.870 --> 26:14.670]  The fossil fuel industry doesn't want to support you.
[26:14.770 --> 26:16.090]  Nobody wants to support any of this.
[26:16.250 --> 26:16.390]  Right.
[26:16.390 --> 26:20.930]  This is like, we are out there in the wind, like, uh, on our own.
[26:21.150 --> 26:28.530]  The warranty's being threatened, you know, because they're mistaking what we're using in our fuel system for something that's, uh, uh, heating.
[26:28.790 --> 26:32.250]  You know, it just, it was everything that was going wrong could go wrong.
[26:32.330 --> 26:34.290]  And we're trying to, we're trying to be environmental here.
[26:34.370 --> 26:39.630]  You know, we're trying to, uh, uh, burn things that aren't as, as, as bad for the environment and recycle things.
[26:39.630 --> 26:43.270]  We maintain, we used, uh, blends up to B20.
[26:43.430 --> 26:46.090]  That was it, uh, as far as the company's concerned.
[26:46.230 --> 26:46.810]  But it's true.
[26:46.990 --> 27:02.790]  It's like the irony of them blaming you for using a fuel that isn't a fossil fuel and that they've calibrated this machine, uh, for them blaming you for using something that's actually, uh, uh, lower in soot and other, um, emissions.
[27:02.790 --> 27:07.510]  They're blaming you for, for doing something on your own, for, for not following the rule book.
[27:07.590 --> 27:13.370]  It's a, it's the hacker 101 where you try something a little bit different and all of a sudden you're the problem.
[27:13.810 --> 27:15.490]  And, uh, we're not the problem at all.
[27:15.630 --> 27:21.010]  We're, we're basically figuring things out and, uh, and, and, and trying alternative methods of doing things.
[27:21.130 --> 27:27.990]  Anyway, we weren't about to be told, uh, yes, the only way to fix this is to go to the dealer, pay a thousand bucks so they can, uh, make those lights go off.
[27:28.110 --> 27:29.870]  Uh, you went and you bought a tool.
[27:30.070 --> 27:31.530]  Yeah, I bought a tool.
[27:32.790 --> 27:35.010]  Famous one for the, the vehicle we use.
[27:35.130 --> 27:36.710]  It's not like a little cheap one.
[27:36.870 --> 27:47.690]  Uh, they have several different, uh, uh, categories of this tool, but there's basically a company that makes, uh, my microcontrollers that speak, um, to our make and model really well.
[27:47.810 --> 27:49.550]  They've been developing it for a really long time.
[27:49.550 --> 27:53.730]  And I found, uh, a product of theirs that I, I felt was okay.
[27:53.730 --> 27:57.290]  It was like, you know, I'm willing to spend the money as a mechanic.
[27:57.450 --> 28:02.230]  I've been, I've got several vehicles, um, that I can also use this, this tool for.
[28:02.230 --> 28:04.430]  And again, it's not thousands of dollars.
[28:04.610 --> 28:09.050]  The dealer wants, um, it was maybe a couple, a couple hundred, uh, but whatever.
[28:09.230 --> 28:19.230]  The, the, the point is, uh, we were able to speak to this system, uh, get logging information, uh, all the stuff we've talked about.
[28:19.230 --> 28:26.950]  Uh, we've covered this, uh, with farmers, uh, uh, and either cat or John Deere and, and just sort of the way they've locked down a lot of their vehicles.
[28:27.290 --> 28:37.670]  Um, so we're now, we basically, uh, uh, dipped our toe, so to speak into this realm of, uh, of controlling vehicles and getting information, being able to clear it.
[28:37.670 --> 28:48.130]  And so basically, uh, we're, we were driving today and, uh, basically allowed, um, enough time to, uh, notice a result.
[28:48.290 --> 28:57.950]  And I, I, anyway, long story, uh, short, the, um, the success has inspired me to find other, um, tools to communicate with other vehicles.
[28:58.090 --> 29:00.350]  And I'm just, yeah, going to keep talking to all the cars.
[29:00.870 --> 29:01.230]  Okay.
[29:01.350 --> 29:07.450]  Well, you know, it's cool that you can actually log into your car and see the errors and see what, what the issues are.
[29:07.810 --> 29:11.490]  Uh, and in your particular case, yeah, what happened today, it actually happened on the way in here.
[29:11.810 --> 29:17.890]  Uh, even after clearing the code, the light was still there, but it was, it was still cleaning the particulates out.
[29:18.070 --> 29:21.070]  And after, uh, about 20, 30 miles, it went out.
[29:21.190 --> 29:22.230]  So all the codes are cleared.
[29:22.470 --> 29:26.590]  And we did this on our own without using a mechanic and knowing what we're doing too.
[29:26.650 --> 29:32.550]  It's not, it's not like, um, uh, we don't recommend doing this, uh, and, and, and voiding warranties and things like that.
[29:32.670 --> 29:37.150]  We, we understood, we did the research and we just chose not to pay the extortion.
[29:37.350 --> 29:37.590]  Yeah.
[29:37.630 --> 29:50.170]  When we realized it was, it was, uh, the computer imposing a sort of limp, limp mode or safe mode kind of state, we realized this isn't necessarily catastrophic, you know, something failing.
[29:50.550 --> 29:54.670]  It's, um, the system not liking the particular readings it was getting.
[29:54.830 --> 30:02.830]  So we, we transitioned and, you know, used, uh, cleaned up our tank a little bit, made sure we knew exactly what kind of fuel we were using.
[30:03.030 --> 30:08.230]  So that's, that's my story of, um, basically hacking, but not, not really.
[30:08.390 --> 30:10.390]  I mean, kind of just, uh, taking control.
[30:10.410 --> 30:12.070]  I think it's a, it's a sort of hack.
[30:12.210 --> 30:13.710]  It's not, what do you think hacking is?
[30:14.790 --> 30:23.270]  That's as I feel more in control when, when you make a whole bunch of irritating lights, uh, go away and you know exactly what's going on.
[30:23.390 --> 30:31.170]  You've got logs and you, you, you feel like you have more of an ownership of that computer system instead of all this licensing and stuff.
[30:31.270 --> 30:32.770]  All of these words have to do with hacking.
[30:33.030 --> 30:33.410]  Absolutely.
[30:33.590 --> 30:35.330]  Making annoying lights go out, licensing power.
[30:35.710 --> 30:36.050]  Yes.
[30:36.210 --> 30:37.270]  That is what it's all about.
[30:37.450 --> 30:40.690]  And, and Kyle, that's the first hack of the week goes to you.
[30:41.270 --> 30:45.170]  Um, we don't have the theme playing yet, but we will know when we, when we get a theme together.
[30:45.330 --> 30:47.890]  And I think this is, this is really quite well done.
[30:47.970 --> 30:52.210]  And you, you mentioned something I think that is really quite interesting is that the check engine light was on.
[30:52.350 --> 30:58.550]  And if that check engine light stays on, that becomes a big problem for anybody who's going to get their car reinspected.
[30:59.110 --> 31:10.970]  Um, and by accessing the car and the manner in which you did it and clearing those codes yourself, after you realized that they were non-critical, that sometimes trivial things can cause a check engine light to come on.
[31:11.070 --> 31:13.130]  You also saved yourself the hassle.
[31:13.230 --> 31:15.410]  And that's why I think it's actually a particularly important hack.
[31:15.550 --> 31:23.890]  You saved yourself the hassle of going to a mechanic and having this sort of explained to you possibly in a way that would, uh, cost you money.
[31:24.070 --> 31:28.750]  This is a classic way that, you know, mechanics will, well, your check engine light is on.
[31:28.890 --> 31:30.430]  We're going to have to replace X, Y, and Z.
[31:30.550 --> 31:32.030]  I mean, it's like, it's a diagnosis.
[31:32.250 --> 31:33.130]  It's a diagnosis charge.
[31:33.290 --> 31:36.950]  It's like, okay, $300 for me to scratch my head and stare at your car.
[31:37.190 --> 31:37.190]  Absolutely.
[31:37.190 --> 31:43.810]  I mean, it's one of these, you know, old jokes about, you know, an honest mechanic being an oxymoron, right?
[31:43.930 --> 31:46.890]  I mean, sometimes they're honest mechanics, but a lot of them will take advantage of you.
[31:47.150 --> 31:47.470]  Some of them.
[31:47.610 --> 31:48.470]  I wouldn't say a lot.
[31:48.570 --> 31:50.130]  I think there are a lot of very honest people.
[31:50.230 --> 31:57.310]  And the thing is the mechanics are also victims of all this because, you know, if you, if you don't work for the dealer, you don't have access to the codes.
[31:57.430 --> 31:58.690]  You don't have access to the computer.
[31:58.890 --> 32:05.670]  So your average mechanic who's just trying to make a living can't even fix the car because he's not licensed to fix the car.
[32:05.870 --> 32:10.390]  In the past, you bring your car to a mechanic and any mechanic can figure out how a car works.
[32:10.530 --> 32:17.050]  And, and, and these days of control and the DMCA and all that, it's, it's a lot harder to do that.
[32:17.190 --> 32:17.770]  It's not impossible.
[32:17.970 --> 32:19.990]  Well, you know, I agree with you to a degree.
[32:20.930 --> 32:28.610]  You know, it takes a lot to make me mad and I've gotten angry at dishonest mechanics, you know, rather frequently in my life, I feel like.
[32:29.370 --> 32:32.070]  But in any event, you know, maybe I've just had a good mechanic.
[32:32.230 --> 32:34.930]  I got a guy I can, I can recommend to offer.
[32:35.230 --> 32:35.690]  Oh, okay.
[32:35.830 --> 32:44.070]  Well, but in any event, what are the other important things are I actually who do the same thing with an ODB2 port on my car, which is probably, you know, a bit older than your car.
[32:44.250 --> 32:44.970]  It's the same port.
[32:45.210 --> 32:47.470]  The connector is the same, but they've changed the network.
[32:47.690 --> 32:52.990]  I think the newer ones use something called CAN bus and this is a ODB2 is the older diagnostic system.
[32:53.030 --> 32:54.010]  That's, that's exactly right.
[32:54.050 --> 32:56.430]  So I, I have an older car because I live in the city.
[32:56.550 --> 33:04.050]  We don't drive all that frequently, but when I have to get my car inspected, if the check engine light is on, I know I'm going to be extorted into some kind of diagnostic charge.
[33:04.250 --> 33:09.430]  So I clear the codes myself, but the trick is, you know, well, also my car is a lot less complicated.
[33:09.550 --> 33:11.390]  Do you know why your check engine light is on though?
[33:11.530 --> 33:11.710]  Yes.
[33:11.790 --> 33:16.530]  The diagnostic shows it's some kind of, you know, trivial sensor thing.
[33:16.610 --> 33:17.670]  It's not a, it's not a big deal.
[33:17.670 --> 33:19.810]  Because it's important to know why it's coming on in the first place.
[33:19.930 --> 33:23.770]  We, we did the research into it, which is why we felt confident clearing the code.
[33:23.990 --> 33:25.030]  I did too.
[33:25.110 --> 33:30.130]  I've looked at it and it's, it's not, it's nothing, you know, really groundbreaking.
[33:30.430 --> 33:38.310]  Sometimes it can be in a place that's incredibly ludicrous for you to pay or otherwise tinker with because it's deep within the car somewhere.
[33:38.530 --> 33:39.550]  This is some kind of sensor.
[33:39.670 --> 33:40.730]  I can't even remember the name of it.
[33:41.030 --> 33:58.810]  But here, the trick is here, which is a sort of a variation on a theme of this hack is that if you clear these codes and then you go to get your car inspected immediately, excuse me, a lot of the onboard computer systems will recognize that the codes were just cleared and you will not be permitted to perform an inspection on the car.
[33:58.990 --> 34:02.270]  So you have to drive the car for a certain number of miles.
[34:02.490 --> 34:08.190]  I think it's 30 or 45 miles, something like that, and then get the car inspected before the check engine light comes on.
[34:08.290 --> 34:09.170]  So you get a short window.
[34:09.390 --> 34:09.630]  Yeah.
[34:09.930 --> 34:10.830]  In which to do this.
[34:10.950 --> 34:17.210]  There's, there's also multiple restarts when you're adding parts and sometimes it takes up to like a dozen restarts.
[34:17.370 --> 34:17.430]  Yeah.
[34:17.570 --> 34:21.470]  Because the system is going through and running tests at startup.
[34:21.650 --> 34:40.070]  There's little nuances and it's really crazy that we've been talking about this for a long time and that it's, it feels almost, it's like mandatory that when you own stuff, whether it's an iPhone or a laptop or whatever kind of hardware, you invariably end up wanting to fix the robot or,
[34:40.090 --> 34:47.730]  you know, needing to take that, um, that, uh, initiative yourself to, to, um, and be empowered.
[34:47.870 --> 34:51.110]  We never wanted to be, you know, software mechanics.
[34:51.690 --> 34:54.790]  Like I said at the outset, we've got enough little projects.
[34:54.790 --> 35:00.130]  Like there's plenty that we're busy with, but by doing things a little differently, we set ourselves up.
[35:00.250 --> 35:07.730]  And, and that's, um, the, the kind of, I think interesting thing is that we basically had to end up doing this.
[35:07.850 --> 35:14.790]  It was going to, um, be, uh, our way of solving this one way or the other, but we were sort of forced into it.
[35:14.810 --> 35:23.650]  And I feel like there's so much technology now that you basically, you have to figure out how to, um, program or how to read diagnostics from it.
[35:23.830 --> 35:30.350]  And, and, uh, you know, in the past as a mechanic, yeah, maybe I've, I've wanted this stuff, but a lot of the cars I worked on never had any computers, right?
[35:30.490 --> 35:36.090]  You know, if you're a vintage car person or, or, or cars from different eras, they never had as much.
[35:36.190 --> 35:49.530]  Well now in like a practical sense, just to be able to live your life to commute or whatever it is, you necessarily have to be able to use a computer, read debug or, or logs from whatever it is.
[35:49.590 --> 35:55.990]  If it's a tractor or, or another, a big rig or, or whatever it is, the computer is like an essential tool.
[35:56.170 --> 35:56.930]  And it's amazing.
[35:57.070 --> 35:58.430]  I feel you should still have a choice.
[35:58.430 --> 36:05.430]  Just like with any form of technology, um, you can choose to use a rotary telephone if you want, or you can choose to use the latest cell phone, smartphone.
[36:06.150 --> 36:07.890]  Um, you know, it's up to you.
[36:07.990 --> 36:24.110]  And I think we should have the ability to still have cars that don't use computer technology as simply use mechanical technology, uh, as maybe a learning device or just something that's a little bit different that somebody, any, anybody can fix, anybody can take apart and put back together,
[36:24.250 --> 36:25.150]  assuming they know what they're doing.
[36:25.750 --> 36:41.090]  Um, and, uh, I, I always am a little concerned when something becomes mandatory and you have to have this particular type of technology and no other type, uh, because when something goes wrong and something inevitably does go wrong, uh, you are a lot more helpless.
[36:41.350 --> 36:42.550]  There's a lot less you can do.
[36:42.750 --> 36:51.590]  Um, and, and this is a perfect example of how we were possibly in a place where we were completely dependent on one entity to fix something.
[36:51.750 --> 36:52.950]  And we, we bypassed them.
[36:52.950 --> 36:57.550]  I'm sure they're not happy to hear this, but that is what, uh, what hacking technology is all about.
[36:57.930 --> 37:05.310]  We basically ended up becoming the independent shop that we would have gone looking for, uh, screaming into the hills because of the, the way the dealer was setting us up.
[37:05.510 --> 37:06.770]  And like Kyle said, we didn't ask for this.
[37:06.950 --> 37:08.490]  These things seem to follow us.
[37:08.590 --> 37:10.230]  We didn't ask to get sued by the MPAA.
[37:10.690 --> 37:20.470]  Somehow we just find ourselves in a particular place at a particular time where some particular action is required and we're just there to perform that action.
[37:20.990 --> 37:26.210]  Uh, and I think pretty much everybody listening will find themselves in, uh, in, in similar positions.
[37:26.470 --> 37:28.490]  You're listening to Car Talk here on WBAI.
[37:28.650 --> 37:33.330]  Give us a call, uh, 347-335-0818.
[37:33.430 --> 37:36.830]  We'd like to hear your, your feelings and thoughts on this, other forms of technology.
[37:36.970 --> 37:42.610]  Well, speaking of Car Talk, I think what we've all been talking about here, it's all really empowering.
[37:42.770 --> 37:44.630]  This is all very much empowering us about access.
[37:44.770 --> 37:49.870]  I think it, it is very much part of the hacker ethos to take charge of these particular systems.
[37:50.310 --> 37:53.570]  Uh, I'll never forget, you know, something straight up mechanical.
[37:53.830 --> 37:58.990]  When I was in college, I couldn't afford to get a new alternator for my 89 Thunderbird when I was going to Stony Brook.
[37:59.250 --> 38:01.170]  It was going to cost me about 300 bucks.
[38:01.250 --> 38:03.970]  I said to a buddy mine, let's get a refurbished alternator.
[38:04.130 --> 38:05.250]  We're two smart guys.
[38:05.450 --> 38:08.490]  We were both Linux systems administrators at a software company.
[38:08.870 --> 38:09.790]  We're not mechanics.
[38:09.930 --> 38:11.390]  We said, you know what, let's, let's do this.
[38:11.530 --> 38:12.070]  We can do it.
[38:12.150 --> 38:13.330]  It was a cold February night.
[38:13.590 --> 38:14.890]  We popped open the hood.
[38:14.990 --> 38:16.050]  We got the flashlights out.
[38:16.110 --> 38:17.030]  We took out the other alternate.
[38:17.150 --> 38:20.950]  It took hours because we couldn't figure out how to get the belt back on it.
[38:21.270 --> 38:24.850]  But in the end, we put the alternator in, we jumped the car and it worked.
[38:25.050 --> 38:28.730]  And I never felt more like a man than I did that particular night.
[38:28.850 --> 38:29.330]  Let me tell you.
[38:29.390 --> 38:30.970]  I don't think it's a man thing.
[38:31.270 --> 38:32.930]  It's definitely an empowering thing.
[38:33.050 --> 38:34.230]  It's definitely a man thing too.
[38:34.370 --> 38:38.310]  I'll, I'll go on the record and be slightly, you know, gender biased over there.
[38:38.450 --> 38:39.070]  Machismo aside.
[38:39.070 --> 38:40.370]  It was very macho.
[38:40.450 --> 38:41.490]  It was a macho feeling.
[38:41.610 --> 38:42.350]  Come on, grant me that.
[38:42.590 --> 38:43.730]  My hands were dirty.
[38:43.890 --> 38:45.830]  My hands are never dirty after a day's work.
[38:45.910 --> 38:47.550]  It's, it's about having wins.
[38:47.550 --> 38:52.510]  And when you have those successes, when you've achieved something, it doesn't mean it gets easier.
[38:52.610 --> 38:57.530]  There are more things, you know, there, there is always that next level, that other thing that you want to work on.
[38:58.310 --> 39:00.550]  But anyway, I'm just so curious.
[39:00.710 --> 39:14.630]  I mean, I think in the future, imagine when you're like, you're having to debug a machine or a computer that has a personality, like you're actually talking to your house and telling it to send you a log or something like that.
[39:14.750 --> 39:17.890]  I mean, that's the kind of thing that people will be hacking.
[39:18.070 --> 39:21.110]  That's the kind of ways people will be getting on just to live their lives.
[39:21.290 --> 39:22.950]  Never feel bad about hacking these things.
[39:23.050 --> 39:27.270]  Never feel bad about trying to take it apart or, or any, any foreign technology.
[39:27.770 --> 39:33.190]  If, if you have it, you have the right to do to, to take it apart, put it back together, figure out how it works.
[39:33.370 --> 39:34.730]  See what happens if you do this.
[39:34.950 --> 39:36.990]  And Alex, there are so many good female mechanics.
[39:37.130 --> 39:38.210]  I think you're gonna hear from a bunch of them.
[39:38.530 --> 39:41.190]  We have, we have a phone call.
[39:41.370 --> 39:42.510]  Let's take a good evening.
[39:42.670 --> 39:43.330]  You're on off the hook.
[39:43.430 --> 39:43.650]  Go ahead.
[39:44.130 --> 39:44.610]  Yeah.
[39:44.750 --> 39:48.290]  Um, I have the same problem right now, but it's not just the check engine light.
[39:48.570 --> 39:54.930]  Uh, there are, um, uh, readiness monitors that also have to be cleared after that, just by the driving.
[39:55.090 --> 39:58.190]  But on Chevys, the drive cycle just does not work.
[39:58.310 --> 40:05.710]  So first question is, or the only question is, who makes that tool that you're talking about to, uh, to talk to the computer?
[40:05.710 --> 40:06.270]  Well, it's, uh...
[40:06.270 --> 40:07.550]  We can, we can give out the name, I think.
[40:07.790 --> 40:08.330]  Well, okay.
[40:08.490 --> 40:13.010]  We'll, we'll shout out, um, we'll shout out, uh, Ross Tech.
[40:13.990 --> 40:14.570]  What is it?
[40:14.710 --> 40:15.430]  Spell that for me.
[40:15.590 --> 40:19.530]  They make, uh, a fantastic system for Volkswagen and Audi vehicles.
[40:19.710 --> 40:20.150]  Can you spell that?
[40:20.430 --> 40:21.350]  Oh, what about Chevy?
[40:21.830 --> 40:23.870]  I'm not sure if they make stuff for American cars.
[40:24.010 --> 40:26.270]  You gotta spell Ross Tech first, so the guy at least has that.
[40:26.470 --> 40:27.270]  R-O-S-S.
[40:27.390 --> 40:27.650]  Spell it.
[40:27.750 --> 40:28.030]  Go ahead.
[40:28.110 --> 40:28.490]  Spell it.
[40:28.690 --> 40:32.090]  R-O-S-S dash tech, T-E-C-H.
[40:32.970 --> 40:35.570]  Shout out to them, because, uh, they've been doing it for a long time.
[40:35.710 --> 40:38.050]  They've been developing the software for a really long time, and it helped.
[40:38.170 --> 40:43.330]  Sir, if you look online, uh, you'll, you'll see other companies, too, if it doesn't work for your particular car.
[40:43.470 --> 41:00.970]  I would search for a Chevy-specific, um, uh, aftermarket, uh, diagnostic company, because when you get, uh, from brand to brand, you get, uh, different, different, some protocols and things like that, and you really want some specialization, and, and Ross Tech definitely comes through.
[41:01.730 --> 41:05.150]  Okay, so, with, the check engine lights off, I fixed all that.
[41:05.150 --> 41:09.810]  Then you have the readiness monitors that only show up on the OBD-II reader.
[41:09.950 --> 41:11.530]  They don't show on the dashboard.
[41:11.830 --> 41:20.350]  Now, if the drive cycle doesn't work, where you go 55 miles an hour, drop down to 20, and try to do that, can do that in New York without stepping on the brake.
[41:20.470 --> 41:21.490]  It's very hard.
[41:21.490 --> 41:22.370]  It can't be done.
[41:22.670 --> 41:33.110]  So, one fella just told me, and I haven't tried it yet, if you disconnect the battery, say, for overnight, or the capacitors, or the chips, or whatever, will clear in the computer.
[41:33.110 --> 41:34.930]  Now, I haven't tried it, so I don't know.
[41:35.290 --> 41:41.070]  But he's saying that if you leave it long enough, everything will clear, and then you'll get to the inspection.
[41:41.250 --> 41:48.310]  I made them fail mine, so I get the 10-day extension, and that's why I'm in the middle of the 10-day extension right now.
[41:48.310 --> 41:52.090]  Well, good luck with that, and then definitely check out some forums while you're waiting.
[41:52.230 --> 41:55.030]  See if other people could verify they've tried the same thing.
[41:55.190 --> 42:02.550]  You'll find the answers for exactly what you're looking for, because there's so much with the internet now, as far as communicating.
[42:02.550 --> 42:05.350]  You can find out people in similar situations.
[42:05.630 --> 42:06.530]  I wish you the best, though.
[42:06.590 --> 42:08.750]  That sounds like you're on your way.
[42:09.510 --> 42:10.310]  Okay, very good.
[42:10.450 --> 42:10.990]  Thanks a lot.
[42:11.110 --> 42:11.990]  Thanks for your call.
[42:12.190 --> 42:13.390]  Thanks for calling in.
[42:13.390 --> 42:22.530]  You know, what's amazing here, Kyle, is that I don't think that guy would ever have called to talk about computers or telephones or the things we usually talk about.
[42:22.770 --> 42:33.250]  There are so many people out there who are hackers and don't know it, you know, who hack various other forms of technology, and that's what we're trying to reach, both with the conference, with the magazine, with the radio show.
[42:34.230 --> 42:35.810]  Hacking is pervasive.
[42:35.810 --> 42:38.230]  It's everywhere, and it's a positive thing.
[42:38.550 --> 42:50.630]  Yeah, apropos of that, and in response to our latest caller, which I think was really unique and quite possibly a first for off the hook in 29 years, check out something called ScanTool.
[42:50.870 --> 42:53.770]  I did a little bit of research that I've just done while we're on the air.
[42:53.970 --> 43:00.810]  It seems like that particular tool can read GM diagnostic codes, at least as of a couple of years ago, so check out ScanTool.
[43:00.970 --> 43:01.230]  Okay.
[43:01.570 --> 43:02.650]  Well, let's take another phone call.
[43:02.730 --> 43:02.990]  Good evening.
[43:03.110 --> 43:04.030]  You're on off the hook.
[43:04.130 --> 43:04.370]  Go ahead.
[43:05.290 --> 43:08.670]  Why is WBA not talking about people being chipped?
[43:09.450 --> 43:10.890]  People being chipped.
[43:11.170 --> 43:12.310]  You want to give us...
[43:12.310 --> 43:13.030]  Nobody...
[43:13.030 --> 43:13.970]  My mama, please.
[43:14.210 --> 43:16.090]  Nobody could get into that better...
[43:16.090 --> 43:19.290]  Well, few could get into that better than WBAI.
[43:20.150 --> 43:21.950]  People are curious.
[43:22.350 --> 43:23.270]  What is it?
[43:23.870 --> 43:25.490]  Yeah, and the manipulations of it.
[43:26.630 --> 43:27.490]  You got it.
[43:27.790 --> 43:28.370]  Well, okay.
[43:29.270 --> 43:29.550]  All right.
[43:29.670 --> 43:30.710]  Thanks for that call.
[43:31.210 --> 43:33.450]  So, I like talking about this stuff.
[43:33.550 --> 43:35.010]  I mean, we could easily talk about it.
[43:35.010 --> 43:55.150]  It depends on what kinds of technologies you're talking about, but I think from the way I think about it in a really sort of broad bird's eye perspective, it's just the miniaturization, the sort of fabrication we're able to do at such tiny scales.
[43:55.150 --> 44:05.030]  When you're thinking about microchips and semiconductor technology, we're able to make really, really, really small stuff.
[44:05.030 --> 44:23.110]  And the amount of processing or sensing and other, maybe even power storage or generation, the amount that you can actually do now far exceeds, I think, what many people would think.
[44:23.110 --> 44:39.150]  And the kinds of things you could build given the right, I guess, set of parameters or you could build quite a bit of things and really, really tiny things.
[44:39.310 --> 44:47.590]  The commercial ones I think people hear about are based on RFID and there's passive RFID, which is common.
[44:47.750 --> 44:50.270]  And this is, I think, what's used in animals.
[44:50.270 --> 44:55.970]  Like when you have an animal that's registered, they have a small like rice grain at the top of their neck.
[44:56.170 --> 45:08.530]  I've had pets where they had this technology and basically it's a number that is energized by a tool over the site of implant.
[45:08.730 --> 45:12.310]  And then that number is associated with a profile or information.
[45:13.470 --> 45:17.430]  So that's a very common and I think very simple form of this.
[45:17.430 --> 45:27.090]  But now we're even talking about medications and sensing technologies that are ingestible in the context of pharmaceutical companies and other things.
[45:27.250 --> 45:33.970]  So it's really a really huge, wide open field of interest.
[45:34.230 --> 45:43.110]  And you had better believe that governments and prisons, I don't know, you could suggest maybe where we're going to see these things first.
[45:43.110 --> 45:48.090]  I do know this is something that's more or less a foregone conclusion in the world of futurists.
[45:48.210 --> 45:51.850]  And science fiction, of course, probably the first to talk about this kind of thing.
[45:52.370 --> 45:55.810]  But there was an article in USA Today not too long ago.
[45:56.130 --> 46:02.270]  And this associate professor of sociology at the University of Wisconsin said it'll happen to everybody.
[46:02.270 --> 46:03.890]  Not this year, not in 2018.
[46:04.070 --> 46:08.810]  Maybe not my generation, but certainly that of my kids talking about people being chipped.
[46:08.810 --> 46:12.270]  And of course, when people are chipped, it's for good.
[46:12.270 --> 46:13.970]  It's to help prevent diseases.
[46:14.470 --> 46:17.930]  In the case of your pet, if they get lost, you can find them.
[46:18.110 --> 46:18.810]  Well, that same thing.
[46:18.870 --> 46:19.950]  Who wouldn't want that for their kids?
[46:20.550 --> 46:22.070]  All kinds of positive things.
[46:22.210 --> 46:29.650]  But then with every positive step of technology, there is an equal and opposite evil that goes along with it.
[46:29.750 --> 46:34.230]  And monitoring, tracking, controlling, all of that is a part of this as well.
[46:34.230 --> 46:36.410]  So, we need to know how that technology works.
[46:36.470 --> 46:40.270]  We need to know how to disable that particular technology when we see a need to.
[46:40.510 --> 46:42.310]  And we need to learn everything there is about it.
[46:42.410 --> 46:43.050]  We have a phone call.
[46:43.130 --> 46:43.390]  Good evening.
[46:43.470 --> 46:44.110]  You're on Off The Hook.
[46:44.190 --> 46:44.430]  Go ahead.
[46:45.490 --> 46:46.150]  Hey, Manuel.
[46:46.350 --> 46:47.530]  How are you doing tonight, man?
[46:47.710 --> 46:47.910]  Good.
[46:47.930 --> 46:48.210]  How are you?
[46:48.350 --> 46:48.870]  What's on your mind?
[46:49.190 --> 46:50.030]  Hey, I'm cool.
[46:50.450 --> 46:57.870]  The sensor that you guys are talking about on the car, it's called an oxygen sensor or a pollution sensor.
[46:58.610 --> 47:02.410]  That's the two most regular code that's going to come up when you put it in.
[47:02.410 --> 47:03.690]  Okay, yeah.
[47:04.010 --> 47:04.830]  I think there's...
[47:04.830 --> 47:15.030]  And to the guy that's talking about the machine that you got, you can pick up a regular foreign car machine and it will read nearly any foreign car.
[47:15.410 --> 47:18.590]  Yeah, you can definitely use a tool of...
[47:18.590 --> 47:21.390]  There's a variety of them out there, really cheap ones.
[47:21.670 --> 47:34.450]  You can get fault codes or DTC code information, but a tool that actually works with your computer and allows you to do some of the more advanced features or real-time logging, graphs, and stuff like that.
[47:35.010 --> 47:37.570]  There are other brands as well.
[47:37.770 --> 47:54.370]  But absolutely, you want to pay attention to what those codes are and either take it to your favorite mechanic or bring it to the attention of your dealer and make sure that you get what needs to be fixed fixed because you don't want to be riding around in something that's unsafe.
[47:54.370 --> 47:58.330]  The cheaper the tool is, the more code you get.
[47:58.530 --> 48:00.850]  And so you've got to narrow down those codes.
[48:01.090 --> 48:04.730]  If you've got a good tool, then it might give you about three codes.
[48:05.190 --> 48:08.150]  And then when you narrow it, it will give you two back.
[48:08.830 --> 48:10.510]  And then you've got the right code.
[48:10.970 --> 48:14.870]  And if you're mechanical and you're tall, you can figure it out really easy.
[48:15.050 --> 48:16.170]  Yeah, it's interesting.
[48:16.350 --> 48:22.530]  I don't know if people have good or bad experiences with one or the other tools, ones that work on any car.
[48:22.530 --> 48:31.870]  I know there's luxury cars that require fiber optics and other kinds of esoteric connecting and protocols.
[48:32.150 --> 48:33.850]  So it's a huge field.
[48:34.050 --> 48:37.790]  If people have really good success with one, we'd love to hear about it.
[48:37.910 --> 48:43.890]  What is the best computer or best software to talk to machines?
[48:43.890 --> 48:53.390]  We would love to know because this is the future we're embarking and ready for and preparing one another for here at Off The Hook.
[48:53.530 --> 48:54.530]  Thank you so much for your call.
[48:54.810 --> 48:55.410]  Have a good night.
[48:55.510 --> 48:55.970]  All right, man.
[48:57.090 --> 48:59.910]  I think these calls are really fantastic.
[48:59.910 --> 49:03.950]  I think if we get a sufficient number of pledges...
[49:03.950 --> 49:05.510]  You know, I will propose this right now.
[49:05.730 --> 49:06.890]  I love the calls.
[49:07.070 --> 49:08.210]  Every one is sort of a mystery.
[49:08.430 --> 49:12.270]  It's like getting a present, you know, opening up, wondering what is the listener going to say?
[49:12.270 --> 49:13.230]  What are they going to talk about?
[49:13.470 --> 49:20.030]  I think we should do a straight-up full hour of calls if we get a sufficient number of pledges at some point.
[49:20.810 --> 49:22.170]  I think that would be a lot of fun.
[49:22.310 --> 49:22.450]  Yeah.
[49:22.550 --> 49:23.730]  Just let's just do it.
[49:23.730 --> 49:27.170]  It's also important to have something interesting to talk about.
[49:27.170 --> 49:32.990]  And I think our Hack of the Week this week is of particular interest to so many people that may not have ever called this show otherwise.
[49:33.350 --> 49:34.750]  And I know there are other people listening.
[49:34.790 --> 49:36.630]  For every one person that calls in, there's a hundred who don't.
[49:37.310 --> 49:43.530]  People who are driving in their cars right now wanting to know how things work, saying, yeah, I recognize that.
[49:43.530 --> 49:45.030]  I know something about this.
[49:45.390 --> 49:46.850]  This is the show for you.
[49:46.950 --> 49:48.050]  This is the station for you.
[49:48.150 --> 49:56.730]  This is something you couldn't talk about on commercial stations because, you know, you'd be upsetting the corporate entities that like to control all these things in one way or another.
[49:56.970 --> 49:57.890]  So consider that.
[49:57.990 --> 49:58.530]  Consider that.
[49:59.030 --> 50:05.950]  If you feel that's worth making a pledge to this radio station, our phone number, 516-620-3602.
[50:06.050 --> 50:07.090]  That's the number to make a pledge.
[50:07.210 --> 50:09.810]  516-620-3602.
[50:09.910 --> 50:10.690]  What happens when you call that?
[50:10.790 --> 50:12.630]  You'll get a human being that picks up.
[50:12.950 --> 50:15.050]  And you can say how much you want to donate.
[50:15.310 --> 50:20.090]  They will tell you what thank you gifts we have for the amount that you wish to donate.
[50:20.230 --> 50:21.970]  Now, you can make a one-time donation.
[50:21.970 --> 50:23.210]  You can make a monthly donation.
[50:23.210 --> 50:28.870]  You can become a WBAI buddy with the recurring pledges, as little as $5 a month.
[50:29.130 --> 50:33.830]  You can also go to the website, give2wbai.org.
[50:33.950 --> 50:35.990]  That's give, the number to, WBAI.org.
[50:35.990 --> 50:42.570]  Or you can text the letters WBAI to the number 41444.
[50:42.630 --> 50:44.090]  And you'll get a little message back.
[50:44.410 --> 50:50.530]  And you'll have a nice conversation with the robot there that will help you figure out how much you want to pledge in that manner.
[50:50.690 --> 50:57.150]  The important thing is to keep these conversations alive, to keep this back and forth, something that is encouraged.
[50:57.150 --> 51:02.170]  Because you tune to any other frequency here in New York City, you're not going to find that.
[51:02.730 --> 51:05.510]  And yeah, we're facing all kinds of challenges.
[51:05.510 --> 51:07.650]  We are well aware of that.
[51:07.990 --> 51:11.370]  But we've faced bigger challenges in the past, if you can believe that.
[51:11.390 --> 51:12.070]  We really have.
[51:12.330 --> 51:18.110]  We've faced all kinds of huge problems that we never should have overcome.
[51:18.110 --> 51:19.170]  But we always do.
[51:19.350 --> 51:26.570]  And the reason we do is because, very simply, we have listeners who support us, who believe in us, who believe in the things that we are saying.
[51:26.570 --> 51:27.930]  And we say many different things.
[51:28.010 --> 51:33.850]  There's all kinds of different viewpoints that are expressed over these airwaves, all kinds of people you might agree with or disagree with.
[51:34.290 --> 51:39.650]  But the dialogue itself is something that I think we can all agree is essential.
[51:39.890 --> 51:44.010]  So please give a call, 516-620-3602.
[51:44.190 --> 51:46.110]  Go to give2wbai.org.
[51:46.250 --> 51:47.450]  Text to 41444.
[51:48.130 --> 51:49.510]  However you choose to do it.
[51:50.110 --> 51:52.050]  We would love to have your support.
[51:52.350 --> 51:55.190]  Our phone number to make phone calls to us.
[51:55.270 --> 51:56.510]  We have a couple minutes left.
[51:56.510 --> 51:59.210]  347-335-0818.
[51:59.530 --> 52:15.290]  And speaking of phone calls, speaking of keeping this dialogue alive, which is so important and so critical, what other station on the dial anywhere in this country, anywhere in the world, is still taking live phone calls without pre-screening them?
[52:15.670 --> 52:16.850]  I mean, this is a rarity.
[52:16.850 --> 52:19.050]  This is a rarity that happens in WBAI.
[52:19.210 --> 52:20.830]  It's a rarity that happens on Off the Hook.
[52:20.850 --> 52:22.730]  It's something that's so critical and so important.
[52:22.750 --> 52:24.130]  And let's take another phone call right now.
[52:24.550 --> 52:25.550]  Yeah, because we can do that.
[52:25.670 --> 52:25.970]  We can do it.
[52:25.970 --> 52:27.070]  You can't do that on other radio stations.
[52:27.150 --> 52:27.950]  You can do that here.
[52:28.010 --> 52:31.410]  We can say on the radio, you're live on WBAI.
[52:31.530 --> 52:31.830]  Go ahead.
[52:32.810 --> 52:33.130]  Hi.
[52:33.570 --> 52:34.410]  Hi, what's on your mind?
[52:34.590 --> 52:41.990]  I remember that you were saying last week that on the 7th, there's going to be demonstrations about net neutrality.
[52:42.550 --> 52:43.530]  Was that on the...
[52:43.530 --> 52:44.930]  I know the vote is on the 14th.
[52:45.310 --> 52:46.230]  Alex, you know something about this?
[52:46.310 --> 52:46.770]  I do.
[52:47.110 --> 52:54.530]  If I recall correctly, I believe that these December 7th net neutrality protests are going to be taking place outside Verizon stores.
[52:54.930 --> 53:02.890]  And I think that the reason Verizon was targeted was because the FCC chairman, Ajit Pah, used to be in-house counsel for Verizon itself.
[53:03.350 --> 53:09.770]  And Verizon has also been a fairly vocal opponent of net neutrality from the outset.
[53:09.770 --> 53:12.770]  So it's going to be taking place at Verizon stores around the country.
[53:12.970 --> 53:17.510]  I'm not sure flagship stores are going to be targeted as opposed to smaller boutique type stores.
[53:17.730 --> 53:23.750]  But I would suggest checking social media, checking Twitter for things about Verizon stores around you.
[53:23.950 --> 53:25.030]  Or show up yourself.
[53:25.210 --> 53:26.050]  Action is good.
[53:26.190 --> 53:26.790]  Action is good.
[53:26.910 --> 53:32.110]  These protests were organized by Demand, Progress, Fight for the Future, and the Free Press Action Fund.
[53:32.330 --> 53:38.130]  And yes, as Alex says, they are taking place at Verizon retail stores all across the country.
[53:38.290 --> 53:46.510]  So if you have a Verizon store within walking distance, grab a picket sign and just march on over there and I'm sure they'll be expecting you.
[53:47.210 --> 53:47.570]  Sorry?
[53:48.110 --> 53:49.790]  I will go by tomorrow morning.
[53:50.430 --> 53:51.750]  Yeah, it was tomorrow the 7th?
[53:52.710 --> 53:53.290]  What's today's day?
[53:53.450 --> 53:54.350]  Yeah, tomorrow's the 7th.
[53:54.570 --> 53:54.710]  Oh my God.
[53:54.890 --> 53:56.550]  Okay, well, we all have to get over there then.
[53:56.670 --> 53:57.030]  Absolutely.
[53:57.250 --> 53:58.370]  We have a bunch of Verizon stores.
[53:58.550 --> 53:58.710]  We have to paint some signs.
[53:58.890 --> 53:59.990]  Okay, we'll be there.
[54:00.030 --> 54:00.290]  Thank you.
[54:00.390 --> 54:00.650]  Absolutely.
[54:00.790 --> 54:02.030]  Thanks for bringing that to our attention.
[54:02.130 --> 54:04.130]  That's a very important reminder for our listeners.
[54:04.710 --> 54:06.790]  And many thanks to our listeners.
[54:06.990 --> 54:09.170]  And we wouldn't have had that reminder if we didn't take phone calls.
[54:09.290 --> 54:09.910]  You're right.
[54:10.450 --> 54:12.150]  Yeah, that's so true.
[54:12.290 --> 54:12.770]  It's amazing.
[54:13.050 --> 54:14.690]  Our listeners are what keep us going.
[54:15.050 --> 54:18.950]  And you can also, you can stop calling now because we're done taking phone calls.
[54:19.070 --> 54:19.470]  We're out of time.
[54:19.470 --> 54:20.050]  Sorry.
[54:21.850 --> 54:23.330]  But you can write to us.
[54:23.450 --> 54:26.570]  And a lot of people don't write to us because people don't write anymore.
[54:26.870 --> 54:28.050]  And we need to change that.
[54:28.130 --> 54:28.830]  We need to fix that.
[54:29.470 --> 54:30.670]  It's better than Twitter.
[54:30.910 --> 54:32.130]  It's better than Facebook.
[54:32.330 --> 54:33.310]  It's called email.
[54:33.610 --> 54:36.910]  And O-T-H at 2600.com is our email address.
[54:37.270 --> 54:40.830]  And you can throw together all kinds of sentences as much as you want to say.
[54:40.930 --> 54:41.790]  You can send us pictures.
[54:41.970 --> 54:42.610]  You can send us videos.
[54:42.790 --> 54:44.690]  You can do all kinds of things with email.
[54:44.910 --> 54:46.190]  Tell us what you hacked this week.
[54:46.350 --> 54:46.730]  Yes.
[54:46.830 --> 54:59.270]  We'd like to hear from you, you know, and maybe, okay, if we run out of things, although I doubt it with the people that we have in this room and the people who are out trying to hack something right now, we will always have a hack of the week.
[54:59.410 --> 55:05.370]  But I think we could have a listener hack of the week too and bring them in and interview them and demonstrate things.
[55:06.190 --> 55:06.810]  Totally agree.
[55:07.030 --> 55:14.850]  And, you know, speaking for Voltaire, since he's not here, if you do insist on using Twitter, you can find us at at Hacker Radio Show on Twitter.
[55:15.110 --> 55:15.450]  Yes.
[55:15.850 --> 55:16.710]  You don't need the at sign.
[55:16.850 --> 55:18.010]  I mean, everyone has an at sign.
[55:18.050 --> 55:18.430]  That's true.
[55:20.570 --> 55:21.590]  Off the hook, we'll see you next week.
[55:21.690 --> 55:21.870]  Good night.
[55:22.070 --> 55:22.250]  Bye.
[57:05.460 --> 57:07.280]  You are smart.