[00:00.000 --> 00:00.940]  WBAI.
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[00:30.000 --> 00:30.680]  Happy Holidays.
[00:36.810 --> 00:39.850]  And you are listening to Radio Station...
[00:39.850 --> 00:40.690]  No.
[00:41.010 --> 00:42.510]  No, you're not listening to the Radio Station.
[00:42.510 --> 00:43.730]  You're listening to a podcast.
[00:43.730 --> 00:45.070]  You're listening to a website.
[00:45.070 --> 00:46.250]  You're listening to the internet.
[00:46.550 --> 00:49.130]  You're listening to WBAI.org.
[00:49.310 --> 00:50.790]  It's 8 o'clock.
[00:52.150 --> 00:55.050]  It's time once again for Off the Hook.
[01:00.430 --> 01:04.910]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:05.850 --> 01:07.830]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:08.350 --> 01:10.370]  Now I can't make a call.
[01:11.030 --> 01:18.640]  We couldn't get much wood from Diddly Bump, but the best is back from worst.
[01:19.240 --> 01:22.220]  I hope that's understood from Diddly Bump.
[02:28.850 --> 02:30.590]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:30.670 --> 02:32.190]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:32.470 --> 02:36.370]  Emmanuel Goldstein here tonight with you, joined by Rob T.
[02:36.530 --> 02:36.930]  Firefly.
[02:38.070 --> 02:39.510]  No, no, you're not there.
[02:39.650 --> 02:39.770]  Why?
[02:39.910 --> 02:41.330]  Because someone hit that button again.
[02:41.630 --> 02:42.110]  Try again now.
[02:42.410 --> 02:43.030]  Ah, the me button.
[02:43.230 --> 02:43.530]  Good evening.
[02:43.670 --> 02:45.650]  I don't know why anyone would hit that button.
[02:45.790 --> 02:46.690]  But yes, Rob T.
[02:46.770 --> 02:47.290]  Firefly is here.
[02:48.310 --> 02:49.050]  Also, Alex.
[02:49.390 --> 02:49.950]  Good evening.
[02:50.110 --> 02:50.510]  And Kyle.
[02:50.770 --> 02:51.470]  What's up?
[02:51.890 --> 02:53.170]  Well, we're not up.
[02:54.350 --> 02:54.970]  We're up.
[02:54.970 --> 02:57.370]  We're up on the internet, but we're not up on the radio.
[02:57.370 --> 03:03.450]  And there's really nothing we can say to those people, because we can't tell them over the air that we're not on the air.
[03:03.730 --> 03:04.930]  But we're not on the air.
[03:06.610 --> 03:10.810]  Maybe if there's a clever way we can get onto a different frequency to tell them, but they'd have to be listening.
[03:11.850 --> 03:22.610]  No, it's... This is, I think, probably one of the first shows, if not the first show, that I've ever done, knowing that we weren't on the air and just on the internet.
[03:23.290 --> 03:24.790]  So that's kind of weird, you know?
[03:25.150 --> 03:28.130]  We've done shows where we didn't know we weren't on the air.
[03:28.550 --> 03:31.110]  Not entire shows, but, you know, we've been knocked off the air.
[03:31.210 --> 03:32.330]  It happens sometimes.
[03:32.790 --> 03:37.490]  But yeah, this is kind of weird, because we're not speaking to our local audience.
[03:39.390 --> 03:45.170]  And the audiences in the future will... wouldn't otherwise know, right?
[03:45.210 --> 03:46.390]  Well, to them, it'll be the same.
[03:46.590 --> 03:47.150]  It'll be the same.
[03:47.270 --> 03:49.810]  Yeah, it'll sound the same to them if they listen online.
[03:49.810 --> 03:54.910]  But if people... for the first time, people aren't listening on the radio.
[03:56.770 --> 03:58.110]  And live on the radio.
[03:58.230 --> 04:01.230]  That's kind of sobering, because to me, that's the magic.
[04:01.490 --> 04:03.550]  The radio is... I mean, the other part's magic, too.
[04:03.550 --> 04:07.750]  But the real magic is broadcasting to radios everywhere.
[04:07.850 --> 04:09.030]  You don't know how many people are listening.
[04:09.250 --> 04:10.470]  You don't know where they are.
[04:11.030 --> 04:12.450]  People driving in their cars.
[04:12.710 --> 04:16.430]  People just tuning an FM dial in their house.
[04:16.550 --> 04:17.370]  People still do that.
[04:18.210 --> 04:19.090]  And finding.
[04:19.250 --> 04:20.750]  Finding a radio station by accident.
[04:20.830 --> 04:21.930]  How do you think I found this place?
[04:21.950 --> 04:22.890]  I found it by accident.
[04:23.090 --> 04:25.850]  By tuning down FM dials.
[04:25.930 --> 04:30.610]  And wondering, what is that weird station that's not like all the others?
[04:32.590 --> 04:39.870]  So, if we're not on the air, then I guess, you know, if we didn't have standards, we could probably curse tonight.
[04:40.050 --> 04:43.470]  Yeah, if that's the first thing you think of, Alex, yeah, we could probably do that.
[04:43.670 --> 04:46.010]  Because we're not beholden to the FCC right now.
[04:46.110 --> 04:47.050]  But fortunately...
[04:47.050 --> 04:47.750]  We have standards.
[04:47.870 --> 04:50.230]  Well, not only us, but people here at BAI.
[04:50.230 --> 04:51.690]  You know, I've been listening throughout the day.
[04:51.850 --> 04:55.370]  And people are pretty much going about their business as usual.
[04:56.390 --> 04:59.110]  Which is both admirable and also kind of sad.
[04:59.190 --> 05:01.170]  Because it's like we don't know what's going on.
[05:01.530 --> 05:03.550]  But yeah, no, we know we're not on the air.
[05:03.690 --> 05:05.990]  We are very painfully aware of that.
[05:06.190 --> 05:07.090]  And what happened?
[05:07.190 --> 05:07.370]  Okay.
[05:07.570 --> 05:10.710]  What happened was a part for the transmitter blew.
[05:11.530 --> 05:13.250]  And it's a very old transmitter.
[05:13.450 --> 05:15.190]  The transmitter is older than many of our listeners.
[05:15.810 --> 05:21.590]  And to get a part for that requires it to be invented.
[05:21.770 --> 05:24.710]  No, just shipped from far away and inserted.
[05:24.990 --> 05:28.910]  And, you know, our engineers have a lot of work that they have to do.
[05:28.910 --> 05:30.370]  And it's not easy.
[05:30.890 --> 05:32.150]  So it's going to take a couple of days.
[05:32.150 --> 05:35.570]  Probably by the end of the week, we should be back on the air.
[05:35.750 --> 05:36.270]  That would be nice.
[05:36.350 --> 05:41.650]  So, no, it's not the Empire State Building lobbing off our antenna and throwing it into the street.
[05:41.650 --> 05:44.230]  Wait, no, if only they would.
[05:44.230 --> 05:45.830]  If only they would kick us off.
[05:46.010 --> 05:47.490]  But they're not kicking us off.
[05:47.550 --> 05:48.890]  They're kind of like holding us prisoner.
[05:49.310 --> 05:54.550]  And that's why we have to raise all the money to keep the network, keep the entire network going.
[05:55.010 --> 05:56.590]  And they're filing papers.
[05:56.730 --> 05:58.230]  They're filing papers to seize assets.
[05:58.510 --> 06:00.630]  It's not a pretty thing that's happening.
[06:00.850 --> 06:03.690]  And there's all kinds of dire talk and predictions.
[06:05.210 --> 06:08.530]  And I got to say, you know, I've seen crises here at BAI.
[06:08.750 --> 06:10.010]  I've seen many crises.
[06:10.730 --> 06:12.770]  These, this is a pretty serious one.
[06:12.950 --> 06:17.350]  This one could, could be, could be devastating.
[06:17.810 --> 06:20.210]  But I think we have, we have the spirit.
[06:20.410 --> 06:24.530]  We have the spirit to keep going, to keep plotting through and figuring things out.
[06:24.670 --> 06:38.310]  Because, you know, it's, you have a situation, basically, for those people who don't know, they have a situation where we were forced into a contract to pay a huge amount for a transmitter space on the Empire State Building.
[06:38.310 --> 06:42.850]  By huge amount, I mean something on the order of $60,000 a month.
[06:43.310 --> 06:44.210]  That's what it costs.
[06:44.350 --> 06:45.910]  Now, other radio stations won't tell you that.
[06:46.030 --> 06:50.130]  They won't tell you how much they spend on transmitter costs.
[06:50.210 --> 06:51.830]  But that's a phenomenal amount.
[06:52.650 --> 07:01.350]  And, you know, if, if you own the Empire State Building, wow, the amount of money you have coming, because you multiply that by all the radio stations that use that facility.
[07:01.950 --> 07:08.450]  And then what you do is you rope them into a contract that they cannot get out of for at least five years.
[07:08.730 --> 07:11.050]  Well, why would you sign a contract like that?
[07:11.530 --> 07:17.730]  You know, when the Twin Towers fell, that kind of got rid of an alternative.
[07:18.090 --> 07:19.830]  There was only one game in town.
[07:20.050 --> 07:21.410]  The Empire State Building was it.
[07:21.990 --> 07:24.670]  The Times Square Tower had not yet existed.
[07:25.370 --> 07:32.370]  So many radio stations were forced to either sign a contract or not sign a contract and not transmit anything.
[07:33.050 --> 07:36.550]  So that is how we found ourselves in this situation.
[07:36.730 --> 07:38.770]  There are other parts to all this, too.
[07:38.890 --> 07:41.770]  I mean, it could have been done better, I suppose.
[07:42.210 --> 07:44.490]  But the fact remains, we're in this contract.
[07:44.490 --> 07:46.510]  We cannot get out of for another couple of years.
[07:46.510 --> 07:59.550]  And we were told by a court a couple of months ago that, yes, in fact, despite verbal agreements, we are beholden to them for the entire amount, which is a couple of million dollars.
[08:00.230 --> 08:03.930]  You add to that, you know, all kinds of other costs and expenses.
[08:04.150 --> 08:07.010]  And it just, it seems almost impossible to get out of this.
[08:07.890 --> 08:09.770]  But we've existed since 1949.
[08:10.070 --> 08:11.790]  The Pacifica Network has existed since 1949.
[08:12.370 --> 08:14.310]  WBAR has existed since 1960.
[08:16.510 --> 08:19.630]  And we've had all kinds of crises, all kinds of challenges.
[08:20.450 --> 08:21.490]  And we've gotten through it.
[08:21.650 --> 08:22.390]  We've gotten through them all.
[08:22.710 --> 08:25.170]  So this is just another one.
[08:25.590 --> 08:28.150]  Not being on the air, of course, illustrates that point beautifully.
[08:28.370 --> 08:30.070]  But I don't know.
[08:30.210 --> 08:31.550]  I have to remain optimistic.
[08:31.730 --> 08:37.930]  Because the alternative is not having this place, not having this network.
[08:37.930 --> 08:58.150]  Because if you, you know, there are people, there are people within the network that don't get it, that are kind of not in the true Pacifica spirit, people who want to sell a radio station or two, people who want to change just basically the way things are done,
[08:58.350 --> 08:59.110]  what we stand for.
[08:59.910 --> 09:03.070]  Once you do that, Pacifica is no longer Pacifica.
[09:03.070 --> 09:07.530]  Once you get rid of a station, you're no longer a network of radio stations.
[09:07.910 --> 09:22.450]  We have all kinds of assets such as real estate and things like that, that obviously, obviously, that is the first thing that you look at if you need to take out a loan or need to get some kind of financial backing using that as collateral.
[09:22.450 --> 09:24.210]  You don't get rid of the radio state.
[09:24.290 --> 09:26.010]  You don't swap a frequency.
[09:26.010 --> 09:27.110]  See, we're at 99.1.
[09:27.210 --> 09:27.810]  Well, we're not right now.
[09:27.970 --> 09:29.250]  We're not 99.5 FM.
[09:29.350 --> 09:34.570]  But if we were on the air, we would be at 99.5 FM in the middle of the dial in New York City.
[09:34.910 --> 09:37.950]  And there are people who say, yeah, you know, you could sell that.
[09:38.070 --> 09:43.230]  You could sell that frequency and broadcast on a much lower power on the bottom of the dial.
[09:44.050 --> 09:45.430]  Okay, you could do that.
[09:45.610 --> 09:54.790]  But what you are doing in the process is cutting your listenership, maybe not as much as we're doing right now, but by a huge amount.
[09:55.850 --> 09:59.890]  And you're losing that magic, the magic that made WBAI possible.
[10:00.130 --> 10:05.110]  99.5 FM full power station in the middle of the dial broadcasting off the Empire State Building.
[10:06.630 --> 10:14.950]  That is something that if you give that away, you're pretty much losing the magic of what this place has been all these years.
[10:15.330 --> 10:17.070]  And what's the point?
[10:17.070 --> 10:28.210]  What's the point of having that station or just going on doing a podcast or going on any number of other stations that have, by that point, better signals?
[10:28.990 --> 10:30.590]  We need to preserve this place.
[10:30.730 --> 10:33.010]  We have the ability to do that.
[10:33.170 --> 10:36.610]  When Pacifica started in 1949, there was virtually nothing.
[10:36.610 --> 10:38.250]  I think there was one radio station.
[10:38.350 --> 10:45.190]  Now there's, we say five, but there's actually more than five because there are translator stations, there are boosters, there are all kinds of other things.
[10:45.190 --> 10:47.270]  The network has expanded over the years.
[10:47.410 --> 10:48.170]  It's gotten stronger.
[10:48.330 --> 10:48.870]  It's gotten bigger.
[10:49.070 --> 10:49.970]  We have assets.
[10:50.110 --> 10:57.390]  We have things, properties that when business decisions go in a bad way, that's what a business does.
[10:57.750 --> 11:06.250]  They basically do things involving those other assets to salvage what's important.
[11:06.550 --> 11:12.530]  And the moment radio stops being what's important is the moment Pacifica stops being relevant.
[11:12.530 --> 11:15.870]  And I know people say, well, Pacifica isn't relevant anymore.
[11:16.050 --> 11:16.610]  I disagree.
[11:17.210 --> 11:18.610]  Certainly there are elements of it.
[11:18.830 --> 11:27.010]  There are operations that are definitely in need of repair and revision and all kinds of modification.
[11:27.510 --> 11:31.870]  But radio itself is far, far from irrelevant.
[11:32.210 --> 11:38.850]  And as long as we're doing a radio show here, I think we will believe that, that we're doing something relevant.
[11:39.410 --> 11:48.250]  Not only is radio still far, far from irrelevant, but the place we're on, the place we're on, on the radio dial is prime real estate as these things go.
[11:48.410 --> 11:53.650]  We're right in the middle of the FM dial, surrounded by popular commercial stations of various types.
[11:53.930 --> 11:57.930]  This is a part of the dial that gets swept over when people are just scanning stations.
[11:58.090 --> 12:08.590]  Even now, when you're digitally scanning, you do get a bit of this because it's really like if it were real estate, it would be like prime beachfront property with a wonderful house built on it.
[12:08.770 --> 12:16.910]  And as property, as is the case with property, people are sort of drooling over this space on the dial, this frequency.
[12:17.710 --> 12:23.730]  And there are so many entities that would love to get hold of it and do something that's just not as special or magical as what we do here at WDI.
[12:23.730 --> 12:26.430]  And that is the one thing you don't get rid of, is that.
[12:26.650 --> 12:29.030]  You don't get rid of the radio station.
[12:29.150 --> 12:31.250]  Yeah, there's all kinds of other sacrifices you can make.
[12:31.270 --> 12:32.710]  You can fire everybody.
[12:32.710 --> 12:34.990]  You can change the entire schedule.
[12:34.990 --> 12:38.430]  You can sell everything of value.
[12:38.590 --> 12:42.990]  But you don't get rid of what this place is founded upon, which is radio.
[12:43.290 --> 12:44.130]  Never do that.
[12:44.130 --> 12:49.250]  And if anyone tells you to do that, they are not standing up for the best interest of this place.
[12:49.250 --> 13:08.650]  Think back 17 years ago, when the Pacifica National Board was under attack by various corporate interests, and that was exactly what we thought was going to happen, that the station, that 99.5 FM in the middle of the dial in Manhattan, was going to be sold off because it was incredibly valuable.
[13:08.650 --> 13:10.250]  And remember what people did back then.
[13:10.650 --> 13:11.930]  They went to jail.
[13:12.350 --> 13:16.270]  People got arrested in this station to keep the station alive.
[13:16.570 --> 13:18.470]  It would be insane.
[13:18.470 --> 13:29.890]  It would be contrary to our principles, contrary to our history, to even think about putting this station up for sale or abandoning it for the sake of financial interests.
[13:30.070 --> 13:33.250]  We fought long and hard and over many years to keep the station alive.
[13:33.750 --> 13:34.710]  Let's keep it going.
[13:35.450 --> 13:35.930]  Yeah.
[13:36.090 --> 13:37.570]  You can scare yourself with numbers.
[13:37.570 --> 13:38.390]  I do it all the time.
[13:38.670 --> 13:47.650]  You can look at trends and all kinds of graphs and charts and things like that and say that, yeah, there's no future.
[13:47.810 --> 13:53.610]  Look at where we are now and how radio has changed in the past decade or so.
[13:54.950 --> 13:56.110]  You have to adjust.
[13:56.290 --> 14:00.370]  You have to change the way you think, the way you present things.
[14:00.570 --> 14:03.150]  And yes, that's something we definitely need to do here.
[14:03.290 --> 14:04.530]  There needs to be more change.
[14:04.670 --> 14:05.830]  No question about that.
[14:07.130 --> 14:19.770]  But the one thing we can agree upon, the one thing that I think we should all stand behind is preserving this entity, 99.5 FM here in New York City, and also preserving the other entities, too, that are part of this network.
[14:19.830 --> 14:24.450]  Because once you get rid of one of them, you've pretty much gotten rid of the entire thing.
[14:24.450 --> 14:32.710]  And radio here has always been about expanding, getting voices out to more and more people.
[14:32.750 --> 14:44.070]  And what we've done over the years here, just on this particular radio show, is reach so many people that would never have heard what we had to say otherwise, would never have felt that they have a voice.
[14:44.790 --> 14:51.390]  We've been able to talk about all kinds of issues, rally support to all kinds of causes.
[14:52.310 --> 14:54.530]  So it remains valuable.
[14:54.870 --> 15:01.410]  The technology changes, yes, we couldn't broadcast on the internet a couple of decades ago, and now we can.
[15:01.530 --> 15:04.210]  Now we can do a show when we're not actually on the air.
[15:04.830 --> 15:06.050]  But don't be fooled.
[15:06.170 --> 15:07.250]  It does make a difference.
[15:07.650 --> 15:11.510]  People, I know, will say, hey, you did a show last Wednesday.
[15:11.510 --> 15:12.230]  It was really good.
[15:12.350 --> 15:13.390]  It was only on the internet.
[15:13.390 --> 15:19.350]  So why not just get rid of that radio station and just do the show on the internet without the radio station?
[15:19.350 --> 15:21.670]  And it's hard to explain it to people.
[15:21.850 --> 15:28.330]  It's hard to explain why the radio station is the thing that binds us together, the thing that makes it magical.
[15:28.550 --> 15:36.810]  Anybody can turn on a microphone next to a computer and broadcast something to the internet to however many people choose to listen.
[15:37.130 --> 15:47.870]  But it's having a voice that extends literally through the air to all kinds of people who you will never know are listening.
[15:48.450 --> 15:49.730]  That is the magic of it.
[15:50.050 --> 15:52.510]  You know, the internet, you can control it.
[15:52.590 --> 15:53.650]  You can turn it off.
[15:53.690 --> 15:55.110]  You can monitor it.
[15:55.170 --> 15:56.230]  You can spy on people.
[15:56.570 --> 15:57.370]  None of that.
[15:57.590 --> 16:00.890]  None of that is true with radio that you listen to.
[16:01.090 --> 16:08.050]  You can turn on the radio and nobody will know, unless you're being a jerk about it and playing it really loud, that you are listening to that particular radio show.
[16:08.190 --> 16:09.470]  We will not know that you're listening.
[16:10.310 --> 16:14.310]  You will find things by accident, not by seeking them out on the internet.
[16:14.310 --> 16:15.750]  You have to seek things out.
[16:16.010 --> 16:19.050]  You know, you found this show on the internet because you looked for it.
[16:19.170 --> 16:20.270]  It didn't come to you.
[16:20.370 --> 16:24.490]  It didn't start broadcasting in your house without you making it okay to do that.
[16:25.050 --> 16:27.630]  But radio all the time, people find this by accident.
[16:27.750 --> 16:29.370]  Sometimes they're not happy with what they find.
[16:29.810 --> 16:30.710]  Lots of times they are.
[16:31.470 --> 16:32.030]  It's funny.
[16:32.150 --> 16:36.290]  This particular program has always had sort of a unique relationship with the internet.
[16:36.290 --> 16:40.730]  I mean, back when I was, back before I was involved, I was listening to the show.
[16:40.890 --> 16:47.590]  And I remember when the show started putting episodes online on the internet before anybody called it podcasting, before anybody was really doing that.
[16:47.890 --> 16:54.190]  I think this is one of the first, if not the first, shows that was putting itself online for people to listen to later.
[16:54.910 --> 17:04.770]  There were efforts to, by people, volunteers of all sorts, to lash things together that would get the radio station and stream it online so people could listen.
[17:05.510 --> 17:08.830]  And, you know, but it was always primarily a radio concern.
[17:08.830 --> 17:14.830]  And this is the very first time that I think we're speaking directly to the internet without the radio getting in between.
[17:14.830 --> 17:17.470]  So, you know, it's kind of overdue.
[17:17.690 --> 17:18.390]  Hello, internet.
[17:18.550 --> 17:19.130]  We're off the hook.
[17:19.730 --> 17:20.130]  Yes.
[17:20.330 --> 17:20.930]  Yes, we are.
[17:21.030 --> 17:22.210]  And that was about 20 years ago.
[17:22.330 --> 17:26.570]  I think 1997 is when we started doing that in earnest in real audio format.
[17:26.570 --> 17:29.090]  Not even real media format, real audio format.
[17:29.470 --> 17:30.830]  And, you know, it worked.
[17:31.030 --> 17:34.230]  It was amazing getting phone calls from different parts of the world on that.
[17:34.950 --> 17:36.710]  We would do an internet show.
[17:36.930 --> 17:38.530]  You know, we wouldn't do it on every show.
[17:38.610 --> 17:40.790]  We would just do one show and there'd be a lot of work.
[17:40.890 --> 17:42.130]  A lot of people would be involved in this.
[17:43.030 --> 17:45.430]  But it was the future.
[17:45.550 --> 17:46.650]  And now it's the present.
[17:46.890 --> 17:49.230]  And who knows where we'll be going from here.
[17:49.910 --> 17:59.110]  One thing I'd like to do tonight, though, since we have this unique situation where we don't have our local listeners, unless our local listeners are listening online, which, you know, I don't see why they wouldn't.
[17:59.230 --> 18:07.650]  But it's entirely possible that there are people out there driving that aren't connected to the tune-in app or something.
[18:08.150 --> 18:12.570]  And maybe there are people who don't even have computers that just have radios.
[18:12.850 --> 18:13.930]  Yeah, it does.
[18:14.010 --> 18:16.070]  There's people in prison who listen to us.
[18:16.570 --> 18:20.370]  Obviously, they can't hop on the internet and just tune to any station they want.
[18:20.470 --> 18:20.650]  No.
[18:21.250 --> 18:22.610]  That's just what radio is.
[18:22.710 --> 18:23.330]  It's low-tech.
[18:23.570 --> 18:25.310]  It's commonly available.
[18:26.190 --> 18:29.790]  So this is the first time we haven't had that.
[18:29.970 --> 18:39.070]  So what I'd like to do is open phones up to people that are listening in the only way that we are broadcasting the show tonight.
[18:39.970 --> 18:42.870]  347-335-0818 is our telephone number.
[18:43.110 --> 18:54.530]  And usually we get calls from people in the area because they just happen to dial faster, I think, and they don't get any kind of delay when our words go out.
[18:54.590 --> 18:58.170]  But now we'll only be speaking with people that are hearing us online.
[18:58.210 --> 18:59.930]  So let's see who's out there.
[19:00.010 --> 19:01.190]  You know, I'm very curious.
[19:01.330 --> 19:06.070]  I'd also like to hear opinions as to where they think this place should go.
[19:07.550 --> 19:09.190]  Suggestions, ideas, things like that.
[19:09.290 --> 19:12.110]  Maybe some blackmail against the people that we owe $2 million to.
[19:12.350 --> 19:13.210]  You know, things like that.
[19:13.690 --> 19:14.850]  Helpful, constructive things.
[19:14.850 --> 19:17.450]  And yeah, you know, we're not beholden to the FCC, that's true.
[19:17.630 --> 19:19.590]  But let's try and keep it as clean as possible.
[19:20.450 --> 19:22.250]  Yeah, and I think people...
[19:22.250 --> 19:32.390]  Yeah, good ideas for ways to deal with the consequences of this unfortunate arrangement that happened sort of under duress.
[19:32.550 --> 19:36.170]  It's a local impact that really gets it.
[19:36.230 --> 19:40.110]  Like you said, people that are only using radios, they won't stumble upon the show.
[19:40.230 --> 19:45.930]  They won't be able to access it, you know, just by knowing the slot in our programming.
[19:46.850 --> 19:56.350]  And yeah, there's a lot of locally produced content and stuff that originates here at the studios in Brooklyn.
[19:56.350 --> 20:14.470]  And it would be a real loss for the station to not be at 99.5, 99.5, as it has been for so very long and is such a unique thing.
[20:14.590 --> 20:17.090]  I mean, the internet stuff is great.
[20:17.250 --> 20:20.150]  I mean, it can be a way to augment it.
[20:20.250 --> 20:21.430]  I was kind of noticing this the other day.
[20:21.590 --> 20:31.350]  Like, it used to be before, like, a website would use TV, would be a part of a brand.
[20:31.550 --> 20:36.290]  They would say their URL to just give you more information.
[20:36.450 --> 20:41.670]  Now it's sort of flipped where advertising is used in the reverse.
[20:42.110 --> 20:47.750]  And, you know, you have websites advertising on TV to get people to do different things.
[20:47.750 --> 20:50.610]  And, you know, all of that has changed.
[20:50.910 --> 20:57.730]  But, you know, it's never going to be the one or the other.
[20:58.010 --> 21:05.930]  Or were it to change with just one, like, a stream, you wouldn't be essentially like a radio station anymore.
[21:05.930 --> 21:09.070]  And that's just, again, this unfortunate arrangement.
[21:09.270 --> 21:11.650]  So hopefully ideas for ways to get around it.
[21:11.790 --> 21:13.290]  There'd be no reason for us to come here.
[21:13.450 --> 21:16.550]  There'd be no reason for a radio station, per se, to exist.
[21:17.490 --> 21:19.170]  Because everything could be done remotely.
[21:19.550 --> 21:28.070]  And, you know, that common thread that gets everybody in the same place, you know, covering things live on the radio, that magic would disappear.
[21:28.210 --> 21:29.430]  And it has disappeared in many places.
[21:29.670 --> 21:33.630]  Many radio stations, many commercial stations, certainly, are just completely automated.
[21:33.690 --> 21:37.950]  And there are no people there that know anything about what's going on with the listeners.
[21:38.130 --> 21:43.470]  I'm definitely in agreement that the frequency here in New York is the wrong asset, I think, to put on the line.
[21:43.650 --> 21:43.850]  Absolutely.
[21:43.850 --> 21:47.010]  You know, as a consequence of this.
[21:47.470 --> 21:47.810]  Absolutely.
[21:48.230 --> 21:49.190]  Hey, we have a phone call.
[21:49.850 --> 21:51.590]  347-335-0818.
[21:51.850 --> 21:52.650]  Who's on the line?
[21:52.710 --> 21:53.330]  And where are you calling from?
[21:53.950 --> 21:54.250]  Hi.
[21:54.470 --> 21:55.270]  Am I on?
[21:55.410 --> 21:55.930]  Yes, you're on.
[21:55.970 --> 21:56.490]  Where are you calling from?
[21:57.070 --> 21:58.370]  I'm calling from Manhattan.
[21:58.710 --> 21:59.370]  Oh, well, okay.
[21:59.370 --> 22:00.090]  So you're local.
[22:00.530 --> 22:00.950]  Yes.
[22:02.010 --> 22:04.730]  I miss hearing it on the air, of course.
[22:04.870 --> 22:08.110]  But I wanted to tune in.
[22:08.110 --> 22:10.610]  And I've been very distressed with the static.
[22:12.170 --> 22:14.930]  Well, at least it's static and not another station taking over.
[22:15.270 --> 22:16.310]  This is true.
[22:16.450 --> 22:20.450]  But I thought you guys would be the ones who could explain to me.
[22:20.570 --> 22:23.350]  You know, they say there's been a power surge.
[22:23.350 --> 22:28.970]  And they need to get a new piece.
[22:29.270 --> 22:32.830]  They said they were going to order it Monday.
[22:32.830 --> 22:35.550]  And it would be there within 24 hours.
[22:35.750 --> 22:38.450]  So why is it still off the air?
[22:38.450 --> 22:42.450]  Well, it's not something that you just snap in place.
[22:43.370 --> 22:47.030]  It's all kinds of calibration that has to be done.
[22:47.310 --> 22:52.050]  If you've ever seen our engineers at work, it is not an easy job, what they have to do.
[22:52.630 --> 22:59.150]  So I am confident that if the piece is in their hands now, they are working around the clock to get it operational.
[22:59.150 --> 23:02.070]  So I'm certain we will be back on the air in the next day or two.
[23:02.730 --> 23:04.210]  In the next day or two?
[23:04.450 --> 23:06.770]  I mean, I don't know how long it took to get the part.
[23:06.770 --> 23:08.270]  I don't know if the part was available.
[23:08.930 --> 23:11.110]  You know, all kinds of factors.
[23:11.350 --> 23:12.530]  And I'm not privy to that.
[23:12.830 --> 23:18.230]  Yeah, they might have to do some other preparation and clean up from the catastrophic failure that happened.
[23:18.810 --> 23:21.510]  And sometimes other failures happen when you fix one failure.
[23:21.670 --> 23:23.470]  You know, the transmitter is 30 years old.
[23:23.570 --> 23:25.890]  And transmitters generally last about 10 years.
[23:26.030 --> 23:27.410]  That is what we've been operating with.
[23:28.790 --> 23:31.130]  Was there any way to have prevented it?
[23:31.650 --> 23:36.310]  Yeah, I'm sure we can look in hindsight and say, yeah, there should have been a backup transmitter.
[23:36.310 --> 23:37.150]  That would be nice.
[23:37.150 --> 23:38.910]  But that's more expense.
[23:39.150 --> 23:40.990]  You've got to pay rent for that as well.
[23:42.230 --> 23:44.170]  Yeah, there are lots of ways.
[23:44.330 --> 23:47.930]  When you have the resources, there's nothing you can't do.
[23:48.030 --> 23:50.730]  When you don't have the resources, it's a real challenge.
[23:50.730 --> 23:52.930]  What caused the power surge?
[23:53.290 --> 23:54.410]  That I do not know.
[23:54.590 --> 23:57.410]  But I do know that power surges are frequent occurrences.
[23:58.070 --> 24:06.010]  And when you're dealing with something as high power as a transmitter, yeah, it's a lot more costly when something bad happens.
[24:06.170 --> 24:13.910]  Yeah, there's heat and a lot of other things that can conflate the functionality of it.
[24:13.910 --> 24:17.430]  And, yeah, that's as much as we've been told now.
[24:17.550 --> 24:23.150]  Let me ask you, your local BAI listener, tell me what you think we should change.
[24:24.970 --> 24:25.530]  About?
[24:25.870 --> 24:31.510]  Just about our operations in general to prevent the kind of perpetual crisis we seem to be in.
[24:35.710 --> 24:37.270]  I know, it's not easy, is it?
[24:37.550 --> 24:43.350]  Well, I'm just hesitant to venture in my opinion.
[24:45.050 --> 24:46.450]  Well, your opinion matters.
[24:46.630 --> 24:47.950]  Everyone's opinion matters to us.
[24:50.610 --> 25:09.250]  Comparing various programs that are on at comparable times, perhaps the ones that don't have support should be perhaps replaced with new ideas and given one or two marathons to prove themselves.
[25:09.730 --> 25:10.410]  Okay.
[25:11.430 --> 25:25.410]  So that way, the backlog of new ideas would have a chance of coming on and increasing the amount of intake from the listeners.
[25:25.910 --> 25:34.130]  We need to improve the number of people listening and the amount being taken in.
[25:34.310 --> 25:39.210]  Well, that's what it boils down to, is getting people to listen, getting people to donate.
[25:39.450 --> 25:50.930]  And, yeah, I know there are many people who are quite averse to the idea of tying a show's existence or time slot to how much it brings in.
[25:51.110 --> 26:14.290]  But you also can't divorce yourself from that too much, because if you do that, you wind up with, you know, narrow casting to a small number of people and making them happy, but basically kind of shooting yourself in the foot at the same time, because you don't have enough to keep that particular process going that enables people to have that voice.
[26:14.310 --> 26:31.550]  I don't think anybody wants to eliminate shows, but maybe figure out a better way to schedule so that the ones that bring in the most support are heard at times where the supporters will feel like supporting.
[26:32.890 --> 26:33.590]  Hmm.
[26:33.590 --> 26:44.410]  Well, since there's 168 hours, there are going to be shows on that are on at less than optimal times.
[26:45.070 --> 26:47.050]  But, I mean, you can...
[26:47.550 --> 26:59.970]  There's seven days of a week, so you can compare across days of the week to see which shows that are on at the same time are doing better than others.
[27:00.490 --> 27:01.850]  I'll tell you this, though...
[27:03.630 --> 27:19.890]  It's really hard for any show to do well when it's always a crisis, when there are so many fundraisers, and we have so many fundraisers, and we've seen our numbers go down, and we know our listeners aren't happy with that, because there's only so many times you can go to the well.
[27:20.290 --> 27:30.170]  So we need to figure something else out that brings in more support and bigger support, because, you know, this place is so worth preserving.
[27:31.810 --> 27:38.690]  We need to present the best that we have, and, you know, I think there's a bright future if we approach it in the right way.
[27:38.690 --> 27:50.090]  I hate to think that we are addicted to Gary Null health packages.
[27:50.810 --> 27:51.530]  Mm-hmm.
[27:52.630 --> 27:57.650]  You know, I don't think much of them, and yet I know they bring in money.
[27:58.630 --> 28:03.690]  It's very distasteful even to mention, but...
[28:03.690 --> 28:05.930]  Well, it's an opinion.
[28:06.270 --> 28:07.530]  You know, as far as...
[28:07.530 --> 28:11.430]  In my opinion, it should be less premium-based.
[28:11.710 --> 28:15.730]  You know, it shouldn't be about what you're getting other than the radio station.
[28:15.930 --> 28:23.130]  There are stations that do fundraising where the only premium is the continued broadcasting of the radio station.
[28:23.250 --> 28:28.210]  And I think if people felt strongly enough about the programming they were hearing, that would be enough.
[28:28.390 --> 28:30.450]  They would gladly support that.
[28:30.650 --> 28:34.990]  Something else I think would really help us out would be revisiting the whole underwriting question.
[28:35.410 --> 28:42.350]  Underwriting being where you make an announcement that a particular organization has given support for this radio station.
[28:42.490 --> 28:43.610]  You hear it on NPR all the time.
[28:43.750 --> 28:48.690]  Not commercials, but, you know, some entities go a little too close for my taste.
[28:49.210 --> 28:55.150]  But I think, you know, that is a major source of funding that could help this place out as well.
[28:55.290 --> 28:56.970]  And there are all kinds of other things, too.
[28:57.070 --> 29:06.490]  There are all kinds of community outreach programs and ways that the radio station can bolster its support, not just by begging on air.
[29:07.170 --> 29:17.930]  I don't know whether you heard me as I was chiming in, but I believe NPR does that, and it sounds an awful lot like commercials.
[29:18.250 --> 29:19.010]  Yeah, they push it.
[29:19.050 --> 29:20.130]  They push it too far, I think.
[29:20.130 --> 29:28.910]  Of course, WBAI could, you know, theoretically do commercials because it's got a commercial license.
[29:29.950 --> 29:31.350]  But it...
[29:31.350 --> 29:34.630]  Yeah, I'm not 100% sure about that, actually.
[29:35.030 --> 29:43.410]  Since the station has been off the air for all these days, that might be an impetus for people to rally around and give.
[29:43.870 --> 29:49.390]  I mean, you could say, right, now you know what it's like to have lost WBAI.
[29:49.630 --> 29:51.330]  How do you feel about that?
[29:52.010 --> 29:56.670]  Yeah, you know, it's a lousy tactic to use, but...
[29:56.670 --> 29:58.330]  It's not something you did on purpose.
[29:58.530 --> 29:59.910]  No, no, definitely not.
[30:00.110 --> 30:00.590]  Definitely not.
[30:00.710 --> 30:01.870]  We are kind of saying that.
[30:03.930 --> 30:04.410]  It's...
[30:06.810 --> 30:11.830]  That's sort of an oversimplification, but it's kind of what we're saying, though.
[30:12.330 --> 30:13.650]  The listenership has...
[30:13.650 --> 30:19.170]  And I think a lot of people feel this way, has been taking it for a number of years, I think.
[30:19.290 --> 30:24.910]  And the station is still basically trying to recover and more things are falling apart.
[30:24.910 --> 30:26.430]  And this is part of that.
[30:26.630 --> 30:33.530]  And we want to know what it would take to really get listenership up.
[30:33.750 --> 30:41.250]  You know, what I was hearing is maybe like a specific slot that airs only new stuff, only new ideas, you know.
[30:41.430 --> 30:42.530]  Those are all great ideas.
[30:42.630 --> 30:44.390]  The underwriting thing is a possibility.
[30:44.610 --> 30:50.130]  Again, like we were talking about earlier with the transmitter versus streams, it shouldn't be the only thing.
[30:50.350 --> 30:53.170]  It should be an amalgamation of all of our ideas.
[30:53.650 --> 31:01.030]  And we need the support as much as we need as the staff needs our support and vice versa.
[31:01.250 --> 31:06.370]  So these are good conversations to be having, especially now, because it is a bit of a wake-up call.
[31:06.570 --> 31:09.750]  You know, technically, you know, we are off the air.
[31:09.930 --> 31:12.350]  And I hope it's not foreshadowing.
[31:13.250 --> 31:13.810]  Yeah.
[31:14.150 --> 31:15.450]  We should be...
[31:15.450 --> 31:19.690]  We've got two Trump watches and there's plenty of room for more.
[31:20.330 --> 31:20.890]  Definitely.
[31:21.270 --> 31:26.230]  You know, this time in our history, we have never needed BAI more.
[31:26.490 --> 31:29.410]  We have never needed a strong BAI more.
[31:29.410 --> 31:42.550]  And it's my hope that we get things together and are able to forge through the next few years because this place is going to be so essential to the resistance.
[31:42.930 --> 31:43.110]  Yeah.
[31:43.210 --> 31:46.510]  I mean, what about, you know, marches and actions and things in the future?
[31:46.930 --> 31:56.430]  Wouldn't you want remote reporting and the ability to bounce a perspective from the midst of an action?
[31:57.110 --> 31:58.430]  That would make people...
[31:58.430 --> 32:01.590]  keep the protesters a whole lot safer.
[32:02.230 --> 32:02.410]  Mm-hmm.
[32:02.530 --> 32:03.290]  Exactly, yeah.
[32:03.430 --> 32:06.710]  I mean, that could save lives right there.
[32:07.030 --> 32:10.490]  Radio is an essential part of any kind of civilization.
[32:10.490 --> 32:16.130]  That's why they always shut down the radio station first when there's a coup or a revolution because of the power.
[32:16.390 --> 32:17.650]  They don't go to websites.
[32:18.070 --> 32:24.310]  Well, they do, but the real intensity is focused on the broadcasters because that's how you reach people.
[32:24.430 --> 32:25.070]  I'm sorry?
[32:25.850 --> 32:29.490]  Setting down a Facebook stream killed someone at one point.
[32:29.570 --> 32:40.030]  Yes, I mean, there are instances, but if you want to reach millions of people, you cannot do better than a full-power radio station in the middle of a city.
[32:40.210 --> 32:44.410]  Yeah, and we want to get back to improving and setting some of those things up.
[32:44.570 --> 32:53.270]  There's still equipment and capabilities that were part of the old station and that we were excited about implementing here.
[32:53.390 --> 33:09.090]  But these hiccups, these things that make it difficult to even air and the sort of arrangement as well, those are all obstacles that I know that the community has the strength to get through.
[33:10.150 --> 33:15.990]  But the ingenuity, the ideas, and the support is critical to that, whatever it is we're working on.
[33:16.730 --> 33:18.750]  But certainly, we'd like to get back to that.
[33:19.050 --> 33:20.590]  But make no mistake, we have to do a better job.
[33:20.710 --> 33:25.690]  We have to pour resources into this place, whether it's just our own volunteer efforts.
[33:26.150 --> 33:28.170]  We should be building new studios here.
[33:28.230 --> 33:29.510]  We have a great space in Brooklyn.
[33:32.110 --> 33:34.230]  We've got equipment someplace from the old studio.
[33:34.230 --> 33:36.170]  I don't know where it is, but we should be using that.
[33:36.790 --> 33:41.350]  There's all kinds of things we should be doing instead of just constantly bemoaning our fate.
[33:41.790 --> 33:47.190]  And I know we have a lot of challenges that have been thrown at us, and we need to just start throwing things right back.
[33:47.490 --> 33:47.570]  Yep.
[33:47.790 --> 33:49.090]  And that's how we survive.
[33:49.290 --> 33:50.770]  That's how this place will prosper.
[33:50.950 --> 33:52.370]  Hey, I want to thank you for your call.
[33:52.810 --> 33:54.770]  And yes, you have something final to say?
[33:55.370 --> 33:55.870]  Yeah.
[33:56.150 --> 33:56.370]  Go ahead.
[33:56.910 --> 33:57.750]  Two things.
[33:57.910 --> 34:09.390]  One, I hope that you'll keep posting maybe on Twitter or something more details about the technical difficulties as you become aware of them.
[34:09.390 --> 34:17.310]  since what's on the WBAI.org is just not enough information.
[34:17.940 --> 34:34.970]  And the other thing is, without talking about the, you know, there's been talk about letting M&N run the station and, you know, swallow and digest it and everything.
[34:36.530 --> 34:55.930]  but would there not be some way of partnering with them on a position of equality rather than the kind of thing that's been talked about lately that might be able to expand WBAI's voice?
[34:56.450 --> 35:03.770]  Well, you know, everything should be looked at but, you know, when you say have someone else run it, you're having someone else run it.
[35:03.770 --> 35:05.350]  and that's something that...
[35:05.350 --> 35:07.350]  No, I'm not saying that I'm for that.
[35:07.530 --> 35:08.330]  No, I'm not saying you are.
[35:08.510 --> 35:14.230]  I'm saying instead of instead of what's been being discussed, Right.
[35:14.470 --> 35:19.470]  which is is basically having M&M swallow its hole like a snake.
[35:19.610 --> 35:19.850]  Uh-huh.
[35:21.790 --> 35:27.750]  could there not be some way of partnering with them as equals?
[35:29.330 --> 35:30.170]  It's possible.
[35:30.450 --> 35:31.850]  I mean, things should be should be looked at.
[35:31.950 --> 35:32.010]  Rob?
[35:32.250 --> 35:41.430]  Yeah, I think in that situation a lot of possibilities are being talked about and considered and it's far too early to, I think, say anything solid about any goals that are going on there.
[35:41.610 --> 35:49.270]  But, yeah, we should always use all the options and all the tools available to us that let us still keep being us.
[35:49.370 --> 35:52.370]  And I think that's the hacker way and that's the BAI way.
[35:54.270 --> 35:54.710]  Good.
[35:54.910 --> 35:55.450]  Does that make sense?
[35:56.390 --> 35:56.830]  Sure.
[35:57.350 --> 36:00.670]  I'm for anything that will allow it to continue.
[36:01.130 --> 36:01.250]  Uh-huh.
[36:01.410 --> 36:05.170]  To be the alternative voice to the blah.
[36:05.650 --> 36:05.990]  Uh-huh.
[36:06.170 --> 36:06.630]  Yes.
[36:06.830 --> 36:07.710]  No, absolutely.
[36:07.970 --> 36:12.750]  And that is hopefully what we will continue to do.
[36:13.270 --> 36:17.030]  I'm looking at in answer to your question, you wanted more information.
[36:17.970 --> 36:32.810]  What I can tell you is that yeah, I think it's the same what we're seeing internally due to a power surge, the circuit board on the control panel of the transmitter was damaged and will need to be replaced.
[36:32.850 --> 36:34.410]  The part has been ordered.
[36:34.690 --> 36:41.210]  The manufacturer was supposed to ship that new circuit board that has to be built once it arrives.
[36:41.550 --> 36:45.050]  And that was supposed to have been shipped on Tuesday.
[36:45.050 --> 36:47.570]  So if that was shipped, it was shipped overnight.
[36:47.570 --> 36:48.750]  It would have arrived today.
[36:48.750 --> 36:54.170]  So it's, I would say it's being built now and expect something Thursday or Friday at the latest.
[36:55.190 --> 36:56.210]  Oh, I hope so.
[36:56.730 --> 36:56.950]  All right.
[36:57.010 --> 36:58.370]  Thanks for your call and thanks for your support.
[36:58.650 --> 36:59.190]  Thank you.
[36:59.290 --> 36:59.610]  Bye-bye.
[36:59.750 --> 36:59.870]  Bye.
[37:00.550 --> 37:04.310]  And our phone number, again, 347-335-0818.
[37:04.490 --> 37:13.530]  We're speaking with our listeners who either are listening to us online somehow or listening to us from far, far away and not local.
[37:14.090 --> 37:15.150]  Let's see who else is out there.
[37:15.270 --> 37:15.690]  Good evening.
[37:15.710 --> 37:16.850]  You're on Off the Hook.
[37:16.930 --> 37:17.190]  Go ahead.
[37:17.810 --> 37:18.690]  Yeah, this is Denali.
[37:18.870 --> 37:19.870]  I'm a local listener too.
[37:20.030 --> 37:21.470]  I listen online when I'm home.
[37:21.710 --> 37:24.410]  I only listen in the vehicle, you know, when I'm driving.
[37:24.650 --> 37:24.950]  Uh-huh.
[37:25.550 --> 37:27.550]  The internet is much clearer.
[37:28.070 --> 37:30.230]  So anyway, a couple of things.
[37:30.230 --> 37:35.210]  I still never got a straight answer on the four-time square thing.
[37:35.370 --> 37:39.630]  I know they're saying they got stuck signing with the Empire State Building.
[37:39.910 --> 37:42.050]  I don't think that's written in stone.
[37:42.050 --> 37:46.030]  I think you can get out of that and move the antenna to four-time square.
[37:46.030 --> 37:50.590]  where there's more than meets the eye on that story, but you don't have to go into that now.
[37:51.210 --> 37:56.450]  Secondly, you've been having fundraisers left and right and still only one phone line.
[37:56.590 --> 38:02.790]  That should be easy to fix the Verizon problem with that long-distance thing that they got stuck also.
[38:03.730 --> 38:12.590]  Another thing, I sent you guys the 31, the list of 31 personal liens and judgments that your station manager has against him.
[38:12.590 --> 38:14.590]  He has no radio experience.
[38:15.190 --> 38:18.190]  All his experience was finances in the hospital.
[38:18.490 --> 38:20.050]  He doesn't belong there.
[38:20.210 --> 38:23.410]  I won't send 10 cents there until he's gone.
[38:24.110 --> 38:25.990]  That I'm telling you right now.
[38:26.130 --> 38:28.930]  The final thing is most of the left wing is gone.
[38:30.150 --> 38:33.290]  I've been listening to BBAI for 49 years.
[38:33.810 --> 38:37.450]  The left wing, the radical left is just about gone.
[38:37.710 --> 38:39.990]  This country has moved so far to the right.
[38:40.170 --> 38:43.330]  I don't know how many more listeners you're going to get no matter what you do.
[38:43.890 --> 38:49.710]  Well, let me ask you then, with all that, what do we do now then?
[38:50.650 --> 39:02.410]  That's a good question because it's hard to educate the people who listen to Fox, even CNN and MSNBC, supposedly left wing stations and they're not.
[39:02.870 --> 39:04.670]  They're nowhere near left wing.
[39:04.810 --> 39:06.270]  To me, they're all to the right.
[39:06.470 --> 39:16.350]  So I don't know how you're going to get new audiences, the younger people, the millennials, to jump on board the way we were in the 60s.
[39:17.110 --> 39:18.270]  That's a tough one.
[39:18.390 --> 39:19.450]  That's really tough.
[39:19.750 --> 39:24.830]  But the first thing you have to do is fix that, that deal with the Empire State.
[39:25.030 --> 39:27.070]  I still think you can get out of that contract.
[39:27.350 --> 39:31.010]  I don't, we're not hearing the entire story on that.
[39:31.010 --> 39:36.510]  Well, I do know there are such things as contracts, commercial real estate contracts you cannot get out of.
[39:36.510 --> 39:38.330]  Ask anybody who has a lease in a store.
[39:38.590 --> 39:45.070]  They cannot break that lease without paying a huge penalty, which usually is the cost of the lease.
[39:45.430 --> 39:50.070]  If you know different, I think your expertise will be very welcomed here.
[39:51.250 --> 40:00.250]  Okay, well, you know, I have to see, I have to check into, I worked in big commercial buildings, and I've seen people just disappear overnight.
[40:00.470 --> 40:01.350]  Well, that's what they have to do.
[40:01.410 --> 40:03.370]  They have to disappear, but we can't disappear.
[40:03.370 --> 40:05.210]  We're a radio station right in the middle of town.
[40:05.370 --> 40:05.990]  Right, that's right.
[40:06.070 --> 40:08.210]  You have a radio station in the middle of town.
[40:08.210 --> 40:11.630]  You can't disappear, but maybe you can cut a deal with them.
[40:11.710 --> 40:15.270]  I don't think the Empire State building wants you there anyway.
[40:15.610 --> 40:24.390]  No, that's, but they do want our $60,000 a month, and I think they kind of relish the idea of having control over us now.
[40:24.530 --> 40:29.550]  So that, you know, it's a very ugly situation we never should have been in in the first place.
[40:29.790 --> 40:34.590]  That's true, and I still don't understand how that got to be.
[40:34.590 --> 40:38.590]  It's not because you were forced to sign because the Trade Center went down.
[40:38.930 --> 40:44.090]  That's not the entire story, and nobody's telling us the entire story.
[40:44.130 --> 40:46.330]  Well, I do know that I can tell you this.
[40:46.490 --> 40:51.870]  It's not simply a BAI thing because the contract has to be signed by the network.
[40:51.870 --> 40:58.670]  So it's a network issue, and at the time the contract was signed, there weren't really any choices.
[40:59.130 --> 41:08.370]  There might have been choices that allowed for much worse of a signal, but there was no other tall building in Manhattan happening at the time.
[41:09.230 --> 41:20.110]  Okay, but the fourth Times Square was a possibility, and maybe somebody in Pacifica or in BAI didn't want it because it only reached three states instead of four.
[41:20.570 --> 41:25.510]  Whatever that was, that was a dumb move, and there's more to it than that.
[41:25.690 --> 41:32.690]  So what I don't know, but I've heard different stories from different people, and we just don't...
[41:32.690 --> 41:42.090]  I don't know, maybe you know, maybe you don't know, maybe you're in the dark too, but most of us are in the dark on that thing, and I think it can be done.
[41:42.290 --> 41:46.970]  I don't, you know, it's your lawyers and whatever, but that, you know...
[41:46.970 --> 41:50.850]  I like your spirit because there is always more than meets the eye.
[41:50.970 --> 41:54.950]  There's always something you're not being told, and there's always a way to get something done.
[41:54.950 --> 41:57.270]  I think what you have, sir, is a true hacker spirit.
[41:57.870 --> 42:04.250]  Okay, well, then good luck on that, and I'm telling you, I'm not donating to BAI.
[42:04.250 --> 42:06.890]  If Barthold is gone, I'll think about it.
[42:06.890 --> 42:08.010]  Well, let's try...
[42:08.010 --> 42:10.490]  I know it's hard, but let's try and keep personalities out of it.
[42:10.570 --> 42:23.550]  There's always somebody at the station that somebody doesn't like and says, and told them, that person is gone, we're not going to do anything, we're not going to play ball, and yeah, you know, you have to look beyond that sometimes, and I know it's hard,
[42:23.570 --> 42:30.430]  I know it can be really, really difficult and painful, but there are hundreds of us here, and we're trying.
[42:30.590 --> 42:32.050]  We're trying as hard as we possibly can.
[42:32.050 --> 42:35.410]  It's not his personality, it's his qualification.
[42:35.850 --> 42:39.110]  All right, let's just not even talk about individual people.
[42:39.330 --> 42:39.750]  Why?
[42:39.870 --> 42:40.590]  Why not talk?
[42:40.590 --> 42:43.890]  Because it's not, you know, it's bigger than that.
[42:43.930 --> 42:46.250]  It's not one person, it's a bunch of us.
[42:46.330 --> 42:49.850]  If it's just one person, then the bunch of us can deal with it.
[42:49.970 --> 42:51.510]  What do the bunch of us do?
[42:51.670 --> 42:53.390]  That's really what we should be talking about.
[42:53.770 --> 43:02.450]  Well, the bunch of, well, okay, the bunch of you have to change a few things, a bunch of us have to get, we've got to have to story the truth out there.
[43:02.610 --> 43:11.450]  And I don't know, there's infighting between Pacifica and BAI, and infighting all the way around, and that's when things fall apart.
[43:11.470 --> 43:16.350]  And it's happening not only in Pacifica, if you want to go into politics, it's happening in politics too.
[43:16.490 --> 43:18.470]  It's happening in Washington, there's infighting.
[43:18.630 --> 43:19.550]  No, it's insane.
[43:19.730 --> 43:26.030]  And this has been going on for a while, but it's particularly insane now because the very future of the network is at stake.
[43:26.210 --> 43:38.630]  And you still hear people, if you are ever unfortunate enough to listen to one of our meetings that is recorded, you'll hear people constantly trying to disrupt any kind of progress with all sorts of minutia and Robert's rules and all that nonsense.
[43:38.950 --> 43:40.730]  Not that that's nonsense, but you know what I mean.
[43:40.790 --> 43:53.450]  It's basically, you never move forward, you never get anything done, you can't even agree as to what the minutes from the last meeting said, and we need to cast that aside, move forward, and save this place.
[43:53.910 --> 43:55.390]  Okay, you know, fine.
[43:55.390 --> 43:58.070]  If there's a way to do that, I'm all for it too.
[43:58.650 --> 44:00.190]  Just to...
[44:00.190 --> 44:04.950]  Look, they won't even tell us how many listed, the demographics of the listenership.
[44:05.190 --> 44:06.890]  They won't even tell us that.
[44:07.050 --> 44:08.550]  The Pacifica won't say it.
[44:08.870 --> 44:12.310]  Nielsen says you have 134,000 listeners per month.
[44:12.450 --> 44:16.790]  Whether they're the same 140,000, 34,000 every month, I don't know.
[44:17.050 --> 44:19.250]  Are they a different 134,000?
[44:19.430 --> 44:20.630]  I don't know that either.
[44:21.150 --> 44:24.010]  But you know, we can't even get that information.
[44:24.310 --> 44:25.570]  And that's important.
[44:26.050 --> 44:28.850]  As I said, the radical left is gone.
[44:29.070 --> 44:30.330]  There's not much left of it.
[44:30.330 --> 44:36.150]  I'm one of the few radical leftists that remain, who remain around in New York.
[44:37.090 --> 44:38.430]  Well, I'm glad you're still here.
[44:38.830 --> 44:39.310]  Okay.
[44:39.510 --> 44:40.650]  And hopefully we'll talk again.
[44:40.810 --> 44:41.150]  Take care.
[44:41.850 --> 44:42.490]  All right.
[44:43.170 --> 44:43.650]  That's...
[44:43.650 --> 44:45.730]  We're hearing from some good listeners tonight.
[44:46.170 --> 44:46.930]  I'm glad they're out there.
[44:47.370 --> 44:51.390]  You know, I'm trying to figure out a logical segue from all this.
[44:51.390 --> 44:53.790]  We've been talking about getting the word out.
[44:53.990 --> 44:55.090]  We've been talking about reporting.
[44:55.430 --> 44:57.250]  We've been talking about corporate interests.
[44:57.630 --> 44:59.290]  So let me ask you a question, Emmanuel.
[44:59.810 --> 45:02.950]  Did you know that Ars Technica was owned by Condé Nast?
[45:04.150 --> 45:06.190]  Yeah, I think I did.
[45:06.470 --> 45:07.110]  Seems right.
[45:07.430 --> 45:08.590]  Yeah, I think I might have known that.
[45:08.670 --> 45:09.310]  I'm not surprised.
[45:09.310 --> 45:09.990]  Let's put it that way.
[45:10.210 --> 45:11.070]  Did you know, Rob?
[45:11.450 --> 45:12.790]  I think I heard that someplace.
[45:12.810 --> 45:13.950]  I just learned that, actually.
[45:14.150 --> 45:15.890]  Do you want to know how I learned that?
[45:16.610 --> 45:17.450]  How did you learn that?
[45:17.450 --> 45:18.030]  How did you learn that?
[45:18.150 --> 45:27.070]  Well, because there was a complaint filed against Ars Technica and Advanced Magazine Publishers, which is doing business as Condé Nast.
[45:27.070 --> 45:32.070]  and also the complaint names a security researcher, Dan Gooden.
[45:32.290 --> 45:50.950]  And so while we're on the subject of getting the word out and talking about reporting on the truth and reporting on security and hacking issues, Dan Gooden is a security researcher who was sued yesterday, served with this complaint that was filed in the United States District Court for the Northern District of Illinois.
[45:51.450 --> 45:57.970]  And Illinois is where a company by the name of Keeper actually resides.
[45:58.170 --> 46:05.350]  And so Ars Technica published under the byline of Dan Gooden an article on December 15th.
[46:05.390 --> 46:14.590]  And this article had to do with a Windows 10 vulnerability of the Keeper software that it was bundled with Windows 10.
[46:14.590 --> 46:32.790]  And the article pertained to the fact that this particular software that was bundled with Windows 10 was about 16 months outdated and contained a vulnerability that could allow people to steal passwords because Keeper is a sort of password manager.
[46:32.790 --> 46:34.050]  It's a password safe.
[46:34.670 --> 46:40.310]  And apparently Ars Technica went through a couple different iterations of this article.
[46:40.510 --> 46:45.730]  Keeper software said that this was an inaccurate article that was published on Ars Technica.
[46:46.090 --> 46:47.470]  They made various complaints.
[46:47.670 --> 46:49.430]  I think there were at least two versions of this.
[46:50.650 --> 47:04.570]  And ultimately they couldn't come to terms and they filed a lawsuit against Ars Technica alleging defamation, commercial disparagement, and deceptive trade practices alleging that they knew that this was false.
[47:05.010 --> 47:15.550]  And what's very interesting here is, you know, I think this is a nuanced issue and I think this is something of particular interest to 2600, to you, Emanuel, and to our readers and our listeners.
[47:16.470 --> 47:21.790]  Because how much do you have to report with respect to the permutations of a security vulnerability?
[47:22.030 --> 47:23.470]  And I think that's what this case comes down to.
[47:23.730 --> 47:28.530]  Well, now, the story, the story alleged that something was true about the software.
[47:28.850 --> 47:30.250]  Is that, in fact, true or not?
[47:30.470 --> 47:32.850]  Well, it's a little bit nuanced.
[47:33.090 --> 47:36.870]  Like I said, I think it was an outdated version of the software.
[47:36.870 --> 47:44.410]  But what was not reported in the article was that you needed to download a browser extension for this Keeper password manager.
[47:44.610 --> 47:49.370]  And then once that browser extension was installed, that was the vulnerable piece of software.
[47:49.370 --> 47:51.710]  Not that which was actually bundled with Windows.
[47:52.070 --> 47:54.510]  It was an extension that needed to be installed.
[47:54.670 --> 48:09.070]  And then once that extension was installed, if you put passwords into that browser extension, then visited a website that contained malicious code and you were subject to that particular malicious code, then your passwords could become vulnerable.
[48:09.250 --> 48:17.290]  So it was a couple steps down the road, but you needed to install this particular extension, and Ars Technica was sued for this.
[48:17.690 --> 48:20.050]  Okay, why was that information not included?
[48:20.210 --> 48:22.150]  Was it because they didn't want people to do that?
[48:22.410 --> 48:27.850]  Or were they deliberately withholding information to make the software look bad?
[48:27.910 --> 48:36.690]  The complaint is alleging that they deliberately withheld the information that they knew what they were publishing was in fact false, and that they were putting this out there to harm this company, Keeper.
[48:37.430 --> 48:38.670]  Now, why would they do that?
[48:39.370 --> 48:40.730]  That's a very good question.
[48:40.770 --> 48:41.970]  Okay, this seems kind of strange.
[48:42.170 --> 48:46.430]  It does seem very, very strange because it's not in anybody's best interest.
[48:46.570 --> 48:51.510]  It's not the best way to win friends and influence people in the journalistic world by publishing false stories.
[48:52.310 --> 48:53.570]  But what do you think?
[48:53.670 --> 48:58.630]  Do you think that you need to, that this browser extension should have been described in this particular case?
[48:58.630 --> 49:05.390]  Look, the fact of the story is that there is a security vulnerability with this particular piece of software.
[49:05.570 --> 49:06.170]  That's right.
[49:06.650 --> 49:11.070]  That particular security vulnerability exists under certain circumstances.
[49:11.070 --> 49:19.930]  I guess you can add the word under certain circumstances to every single story, but it should go without saying that, yeah, this is possible.
[49:20.910 --> 49:26.150]  Now, if it's not true at all, the company challenges the journalist and says, prove it, you know?
[49:26.310 --> 49:29.450]  And if the journalist can't prove it, print a damn retraction, period.
[49:29.650 --> 49:34.810]  But apparently the journalist was able to prove it using certain extensions.
[49:35.590 --> 49:37.950]  So I don't understand how this wound up in court.
[49:38.090 --> 49:47.190]  That's the thing that really bothers me here, is that a journalist reporting something that a company doesn't like has to show up in court and defend himself there.
[49:47.190 --> 49:52.850]  Well, what's interesting here is what I think this may come down to the meaning of words.
[49:53.510 --> 49:56.230]  And it's the meaning of bundled or preloaded.
[49:56.230 --> 49:59.470]  Because the browser extension was not bundled with Windows 10.
[49:59.650 --> 50:01.390]  The Keeper software was, right?
[50:01.590 --> 50:13.710]  So the article stated that this particular vulnerability was bundled or preloaded with Windows 10, when in fact you needed to go and affirmatively do something, like download a browser extension for the password.
[50:13.710 --> 50:14.850]  Who made the browser extension?
[50:15.650 --> 50:16.970]  The software company did.
[50:17.230 --> 50:18.850]  The same company made the browser extension?
[50:18.930 --> 50:19.070]  Yes.
[50:19.070 --> 50:20.590]  I thought it was a third-party browser extension.
[50:20.810 --> 50:20.950]  No, no, no.
[50:20.950 --> 50:23.230]  It's their own browser extension that leads to the vulnerability.
[50:23.510 --> 50:24.670]  They don't have a case.
[50:24.810 --> 50:25.610]  Get out of the courtroom.
[50:25.870 --> 50:26.750]  Oh, my God.
[50:27.090 --> 50:35.230]  But this is a scary precedent that we're facing here, where security research and security reporting is so critical these days.
[50:35.330 --> 50:35.610]  Uh-huh.
[50:36.270 --> 50:42.230]  In so many different outlets, from 2600 to Vice to CNN, this is big news.
[50:42.350 --> 50:57.830]  And if we set the precedent of running to court whenever a company that is named in an article doesn't like the article or can think of a permutation of that article that doesn't necessarily fit the facts of the article, that's a really scary situation.
[50:57.830 --> 50:58.110]  Yeah, it is.
[50:58.110 --> 51:01.410]  Yes, and they've tried that with us in the past, you know, the whole MPAA.
[51:01.910 --> 51:09.110]  By the way, back then, the turn of the century, everybody was suing 2600 for whatever they felt like.
[51:09.790 --> 51:10.310]  That's true.
[51:10.350 --> 51:12.990]  And it just got to be like a sport.
[51:13.770 --> 51:18.190]  People actually thought, or companies actually thought, that that was a way to shut us down.
[51:18.410 --> 51:20.090]  And, in fact, it didn't shut us down.
[51:20.090 --> 51:21.730]  It got us more support than ever.
[51:22.430 --> 51:26.890]  And it basically brought their bad publicity to the mainstream.
[51:27.370 --> 51:32.130]  Everybody found out about their security holes or what it was they were sensitive to.
[51:32.290 --> 51:33.850]  They didn't gain anything from it.
[51:33.950 --> 51:39.690]  Even the people who won, and the MPAA did win their lawsuit after all, they didn't gain anything from it.
[51:39.830 --> 51:41.930]  They lost a lot of goodwill.
[51:41.930 --> 51:43.410]  They had a lot of bad publicity.
[51:43.650 --> 51:46.910]  And people were educated as to the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
[51:47.130 --> 51:51.030]  So, you know, for us, that was the intention in the first place.
[51:51.490 --> 51:53.570]  So, okay, you know, bring it on.
[51:53.930 --> 51:56.110]  Take journalists to court for everything they say.
[51:56.110 --> 51:58.610]  But, in the end, you're going to lose.
[51:58.890 --> 52:03.290]  You know, because the people will support the journalism.
[52:03.570 --> 52:05.010]  They'll support an investigation.
[52:05.010 --> 52:09.110]  They'll support people asking questions and experimentation.
[52:09.710 --> 52:11.170]  That will always be the case.
[52:11.330 --> 52:20.330]  It sounds like they reported about that the product, were it to be used as intended, was vulnerable to something.
[52:20.330 --> 52:23.570]  And this company was responsible for that.
[52:23.950 --> 52:30.830]  At most, maybe a correction in the article, which is absolutely, you know, a normal part of journalism.
[52:30.970 --> 52:35.810]  You know, a correction or a restatement to clarify something.
[52:36.190 --> 52:36.410]  Exactly.
[52:36.730 --> 52:39.430]  But, I mean, there are mechanisms for that in journalism.
[52:39.430 --> 52:42.430]  So, it sounds like this is, as you said, we're overblown.
[52:43.170 --> 52:54.130]  When someone sends us an article, lots of times the company that is seen to be insecure writes into us and tries to clarify.
[52:54.130 --> 52:54.950]  And we print the letter.
[52:55.130 --> 52:56.350]  And they have a dialogue then.
[52:56.550 --> 52:58.390]  And in the end, they get a better product.
[52:58.390 --> 53:02.530]  They get something that people feel actually is looked at seriously.
[53:02.770 --> 53:05.270]  And that the company cares about what people think.
[53:05.490 --> 53:08.990]  Not just acting like bullies and trying to silence the opposition.
[53:10.810 --> 53:13.790]  So, Alex, so where does this stand right now?
[53:13.870 --> 53:15.750]  Well, the complaint was filed just yesterday.
[53:15.950 --> 53:18.030]  So, I'm sure it was probably served yesterday or today.
[53:18.030 --> 53:19.770]  We're in the very, very early stage of this.
[53:19.830 --> 53:23.350]  I think we should watch this very carefully for extremely obvious reasons.
[53:24.470 --> 53:34.090]  And I think, you know, that ultimately, this was really a knee-jerk reaction on the part of a company, maybe a misguided general counsel or a board that said, we need to protect their reputation at all costs.
[53:34.490 --> 53:39.090]  They're going to have more egg on their face by filing this complaint and creating such a ruckus about it.
[53:39.170 --> 53:39.370]  Yes, yes.
[53:39.490 --> 53:40.370]  I only just heard about it.
[53:40.530 --> 53:43.410]  Yeah, well, and hopefully many of our listeners did too.
[53:43.550 --> 53:44.510]  And I hope they follow this.
[53:45.210 --> 53:49.030]  I know we don't have very much time, but this is something that we're going to be tracking.
[53:50.250 --> 54:00.690]  And I think if this gets hairy, and amicus briefs, friends of the court briefs, want to be filed in this particular case, we are available.
[54:00.890 --> 54:02.290]  Our law firm is available.
[54:02.470 --> 54:06.290]  You can contact us through at Hacker Radio Show or A or Bellis on Twitter.
[54:06.770 --> 54:10.150]  And we want to fight this kind of abusive process.
[54:10.510 --> 54:13.290]  OTH at 2600.com is our email address.
[54:13.670 --> 54:18.070]  Oh, and that's the theme for our new weekly feature, Hack of the Week.
[54:19.050 --> 54:23.810]  Every week, one of us goes out and hacks something or remembers something that they once hacked.
[54:24.450 --> 54:27.010]  And of course, we'd like to hear your stories too.
[54:27.170 --> 54:28.990]  Maybe you can be featured on Hack of the Week.
[54:30.090 --> 54:35.350]  And Rob, I understand you have something for us this week for Hack of the Week.
[54:43.790 --> 54:44.670]  Go ahead, you're on.
[54:44.810 --> 54:48.630]  I do indeed have something in the small amount of time we have left.
[54:48.770 --> 54:49.790]  But this is a small hack.
[54:49.990 --> 54:50.670]  Yeah, make it a quick hack.
[54:50.670 --> 54:57.150]  I have a hobby of going to secondhand stores, flea markets, thrift stores and things and buying storage that I find.
[54:57.270 --> 55:00.490]  SD cards, USB thumb drives and things like that.
[55:00.590 --> 55:03.070]  Because I like to see if I can find out what was on those drives.
[55:03.290 --> 55:05.970]  If something's openly on it, then that's interesting.
[55:06.130 --> 55:08.470]  If nothing appears to be on it, obviously it was used.
[55:08.470 --> 55:15.250]  I can use undelete software such as Photo Rec, which is an open source undeleting suite that you can get.
[55:15.650 --> 55:19.450]  And learn about the person who once owned this bit of media.
[55:19.970 --> 55:25.050]  The last time I did this, I found out that the person was a New York City police officer.
[55:25.190 --> 55:25.710]  Oh my God.
[55:25.850 --> 55:29.010]  And I got hold of some documents that they were using in the course of their work.
[55:29.150 --> 55:31.590]  With all sorts of information that I probably wasn't supposed to have.
[55:31.690 --> 55:37.450]  Which I hastened to mention that I destroyed this data after taking a look at it.
[55:37.450 --> 55:39.890]  I thought you were going to share it with us after the show.
[55:40.090 --> 55:42.330]  Well, you know, we'll talk about that later.
[55:42.330 --> 55:45.870]  But of course I destroyed all this data because it's nothing I'm supposed to have.
[55:45.990 --> 55:52.190]  But it just goes to show, if you're donating a bit of media, you might want to take steps to prevent things being undeleted.
[55:53.510 --> 55:57.830]  Words of caution from Rob there as this week's sobering hack of the week.
[55:57.950 --> 55:59.310]  Let's see if we can fit in one more phone call.
[55:59.350 --> 56:01.190]  This person's been ringing the phone for a very long time.
[56:01.290 --> 56:01.930]  Good evening, caller.
[56:02.070 --> 56:02.610]  You're on the air.
[56:02.690 --> 56:02.930]  Go ahead.
[56:03.390 --> 56:03.990]  Hey, yeah.
[56:04.110 --> 56:05.630]  You know, you guys are on the air.
[56:06.130 --> 56:06.970]  We're on the air now?
[56:07.450 --> 56:09.510]  Yeah, on Woodstock 104.
[56:10.190 --> 56:12.830]  Oh, we're being rebroadcast.
[56:13.190 --> 56:17.470]  Yeah, every week they have Science and Technology Wednesdays.
[56:17.550 --> 56:22.470]  And they run Off the Hook and Mishio Kaku and The Computer Show.
[56:22.610 --> 56:25.350]  So are we on right now or is it broadcast later?
[56:26.850 --> 56:28.990]  I believe it's right now, yeah.
[56:29.170 --> 56:29.410]  Wow.
[56:29.490 --> 56:32.930]  I'm hearing my voice within a second or two of them on the phone here.
[56:32.930 --> 56:38.170]  So it's a good thing we didn't say that the FCC, what we want to say to the FCC.
[56:38.370 --> 56:39.030]  Okay, well, that's good.
[56:39.210 --> 56:40.330]  Thank you for that.
[56:40.830 --> 56:41.910]  We should describe where it is.
[56:42.150 --> 56:47.050]  They cover about maybe 25 miles in some directions more than others.
[56:47.210 --> 56:48.110]  They're low-powered.
[56:48.370 --> 56:48.690]  Okay.
[56:48.690 --> 56:49.370]  A hundred watts.
[56:49.570 --> 56:49.950]  Very cool.
[56:50.090 --> 56:52.710]  And they rebroadcast several BAI shows.
[56:52.990 --> 56:54.610]  And they're also kind of hurting.
[56:54.790 --> 57:03.190]  They want people to send them donations, too, because one of their ringleaders passed away, and the property the station's on is in jeopardy.
[57:03.190 --> 57:10.170]  And so anyone listening in the Woodstock, New Paltz area, 104.1, they're an awesome station.
[57:10.410 --> 57:12.390]  I totally... I listen to them a lot.
[57:12.890 --> 57:14.850]  And they're also kind of hurting.
[57:15.030 --> 57:19.730]  They would like people to send donations to Birds of a Feather, P.O.
[57:19.770 --> 57:24.030]  Box 104, Woodstock, New York, 12498.
[57:24.230 --> 57:26.510]  And tune in if you're in the area here.
[57:26.730 --> 57:28.890]  Okay, thanks so much for sharing that with us.
[57:28.930 --> 57:31.070]  It's good to know that we actually are on the radio somewhere.
[57:31.070 --> 57:36.310]  And it's also good to know that there's other voices out there that care about this thing.
[57:37.250 --> 57:39.790]  Okay, so we are pretty much out of time.
[57:40.110 --> 57:42.310]  And that's going to do it for us.
[57:42.590 --> 57:44.550]  In fact, Kyle and I are going to be overseas next week.
[57:44.550 --> 57:46.790]  We'll be at the Chaos Communication Congress.
[57:46.790 --> 57:48.370]  We'll be reporting live from there.
[57:48.490 --> 57:52.290]  That's the German hacker event that happens every single year since 1984.
[57:53.370 --> 57:54.790]  And all kinds of fun.
[57:54.890 --> 57:56.450]  We'll be going to other places after that.
[57:56.450 --> 57:59.650]  If you live in a country that is not ours, why not write to us?
[57:59.650 --> 58:03.890]  And maybe we'll go to your country, OTH at 2600.com.
[58:04.270 --> 58:08.290]  And the fine folks here at Off the Hook will be in the studio next week.
[58:08.390 --> 58:11.390]  Hopefully, actually broadcasting on the radio.
[58:12.170 --> 58:12.590]  Yes, indeed.
[58:12.790 --> 58:13.250]  And you hear that?
[58:13.350 --> 58:14.330]  We've been on the radio today.
[58:14.350 --> 58:17.870]  So we've still kept our streak going of broadcasting over the airwaves.
[58:18.210 --> 58:18.510]  Damn.
[58:18.850 --> 58:19.270]  Right.
[58:19.270 --> 58:22.570]  Well, I thought it would be a streak that we broke this week.
[58:22.670 --> 58:23.970]  Just when you come to terms with that.
[58:24.350 --> 58:25.410]  Always on the radio somewhere.
[58:25.470 --> 58:27.930]  And you have to ask yourself, why put us on the radio?
[58:28.670 --> 58:29.950]  Because radio matters.
[58:30.130 --> 58:30.870]  Radio is magic.
[58:31.170 --> 58:34.070]  And when you support it, you become a part of that magic.
[58:34.670 --> 58:35.050]  All right.
[58:35.110 --> 58:36.290]  We'll see you next time.
[58:37.010 --> 58:38.990]  Until then, keep listening to The Static.
[58:39.190 --> 58:41.430]  It'll turn to audio sooner than you think.
[58:41.810 --> 58:42.130]  Good night.
[58:42.130 --> 58:43.390]  Good
[59:43.760 --> 59:44.100]  night.
[59:44.140 --> 59:45.400]  Good night.
[59:45.960 --> 59:47.340]  Good night.