[00:00.000 --> 00:05.780]  ...about white supremacy and her new book, Loading, A Disarming History of the Second Amendment.
[00:06.180 --> 00:09.820]  Join us Tuesday, January 9th, 6 p.m.
[00:10.280 --> 00:16.420]  at the Graduate Center, 365 Fifth Avenue, between 35th and 34th Streets.
[00:16.560 --> 00:26.640]  For further information, write bringmomiahome at gmail.com or call the number 347-709-2264.
[00:32.100 --> 00:47.280]  And you are listening to radio station WBAI, 99.5 FM on the airwaves here in the New York City area, WBAI.org on the web and everywhere else.
[00:48.480 --> 00:51.900]  The time is just encroaching upon 8 p.m.
[00:52.120 --> 00:53.200]  on a Wednesday evening.
[00:53.740 --> 00:56.540]  That means it's time for Off the Hook.
[01:02.600 --> 01:24.370]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a cough We couldn't get much worse We would Fun Diddley Bom But the best is back the worst I hope that's understood Fun Diddley Bom
[01:36.290 --> 01:41.530]  Happy birthday to you.
[01:42.010 --> 01:45.870]  Happy birthday to you.
[01:46.670 --> 01:50.910]  Happy birthday, happy birthday.
[01:51.950 --> 01:56.030]  Happy birthday to you.
[02:02.910 --> 02:06.030]  Yes, this jaunty music is not just for effect.
[02:06.310 --> 02:07.650]  It's for truth.
[02:07.810 --> 02:11.110]  Today is the birthday of WBAI.
[02:11.250 --> 02:15.670]  This very radio station, what you are now accepting into your ear things.
[02:17.310 --> 02:18.010]  Rob T.
[02:18.170 --> 02:21.850]  Firefly, joining you on this edition of Off the Hook.
[02:22.050 --> 02:24.250]  And I'm joined in the studio by Voltaire.
[02:24.510 --> 02:24.710]  Hi.
[02:25.250 --> 02:26.070]  And by Alex.
[02:26.310 --> 02:26.690]  Good evening.
[02:27.150 --> 02:29.510]  And we'll be bringing in some guests and stuff later.
[02:30.670 --> 02:32.410]  But just for the moment, yes.
[02:33.750 --> 02:43.710]  On January the 10th, 1960, this station was given to the Pacifica Network as a gift from a wealthy, eccentric activist.
[02:44.430 --> 02:46.250]  And it's been going strong since then.
[02:46.430 --> 02:48.530]  So, 58 years old.
[02:49.450 --> 02:50.990]  I think looking good for its age.
[02:51.130 --> 02:52.170]  I think sounding good for its age.
[02:52.930 --> 02:53.890]  And, yeah.
[02:54.090 --> 02:55.650]  We're all excited about what's next.
[02:55.690 --> 02:58.110]  So, we just wanted to observe that a little bit.
[02:59.730 --> 03:01.370]  And see what the future brings.
[03:01.370 --> 03:05.510]  A lot of things for us to talk about this week.
[03:06.210 --> 03:11.670]  But first things first, I'd like to bring the first of our guests today onto the air.
[03:12.690 --> 03:15.730]  We are joined by Brad from B-Sides, New York.
[03:15.850 --> 03:16.450]  Brad, are you with us?
[03:17.670 --> 03:18.210]  Hey, guys.
[03:18.270 --> 03:18.570]  What's up?
[03:19.790 --> 03:20.570]  We're doing great.
[03:20.930 --> 03:24.490]  So, Brad, you're with an event called B-Sides, New York.
[03:24.690 --> 03:25.170]  Is that correct?
[03:26.490 --> 03:27.210]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[03:28.050 --> 03:33.470]  It's an event that's hosted in just a couple of weeks on January 20th at John Jay.
[03:34.090 --> 03:37.070]  And for those unfamiliar, can you tell us a little bit about the event?
[03:37.990 --> 03:38.830]  Yeah, yeah.
[03:39.030 --> 03:44.810]  So, B-Sides, New York City is part of this larger B-Sides organization.
[03:45.490 --> 03:55.390]  And the whole idea is it's an organization that facilitates community-driven events around information security.
[03:56.150 --> 04:01.070]  And just kind of around all of the sort of general hacker themes, right?
[04:01.210 --> 04:06.830]  Like sort of hardware hacking, electronics, lockpicks, you know, all of those sorts of things.
[04:08.250 --> 04:17.530]  And what the larger B-Sides organization does is it empowers local groups to get together and start their own conferences.
[04:17.750 --> 04:19.410]  And so that's what we did here in New York City.
[04:19.870 --> 04:22.070]  About two years ago, we had our first conference.
[04:22.370 --> 04:25.830]  And this year, we're having another one.
[04:25.830 --> 04:33.810]  And we have a sort of an awesome lineup of speakers from across sort of the security industry coming to talk.
[04:33.930 --> 04:40.610]  We have all these villages so people can get sort of hands-on with sort of technical things.
[04:41.750 --> 04:43.910]  And it's going to be a pretty cool event.
[04:46.090 --> 04:46.570]  Excellent.
[04:46.730 --> 04:49.150]  Brad, could you tell us a little bit about the name B-Sides?
[04:49.150 --> 04:54.110]  It's quite unique and often has a very specialized reference.
[04:55.390 --> 04:55.950]  Yeah.
[04:56.430 --> 05:05.110]  So sort of the traditional origin of B-Sides, right, is like the secondary side on an audio track.
[05:05.310 --> 05:13.550]  Usually that secondary side is, you know, something that didn't really make the cut for kind of general consumption.
[05:13.550 --> 05:16.570]  But it was kind of snuck in there on the secondary side of it.
[05:16.570 --> 05:24.590]  And I think that's kind of where the B-Sides organization got its name from, essentially.
[05:24.770 --> 05:29.790]  So the whole idea and the thought behind it was, these are sort of secondary conferences that happen.
[05:31.090 --> 05:43.230]  And they have maybe a little types of talks or attractions for the audience that, you know, you may not find during the mainstream stuff.
[05:43.810 --> 05:45.090]  Yeah, that's interesting.
[05:45.090 --> 05:56.530]  I went to my first B-Sides event in London during the InfoSec Europe event that was, you know, this kind of major, huge corporate event with tons of vendors.
[05:56.530 --> 06:00.710]  The talks were pretty generic and mostly sales pitches.
[06:00.930 --> 06:08.030]  And B-Sides was this kind of utopia of wonderfulness that was just across town.
[06:08.030 --> 06:13.590]  And so I'm wondering, is there a primary conference to which B-Sides New York is secondary?
[06:14.450 --> 06:16.010]  You know, that's an awesome question.
[06:16.290 --> 06:23.070]  So traditionally, with B-Sides conferences, there's usually a primary conference and then there's the B-Sides that's secondary to it.
[06:23.270 --> 06:27.450]  But with B-Sides New York, we didn't actually schedule it that way.
[06:27.550 --> 06:29.210]  We didn't actually plan for that to happen.
[06:29.210 --> 06:37.110]  But I guess it must be the gods of B-Sides that kind of made it happen.
[06:37.330 --> 06:44.210]  So every year that we've had the conference, we've made it a point not to have it at the same time as Shmukon.
[06:44.450 --> 06:46.170]  And so that's a huge conference.
[06:46.170 --> 06:48.830]  It's a great conference down in the D.C.
[06:48.930 --> 06:49.250]  area.
[06:49.250 --> 06:53.750]  And so we've always really tried hard not to make it at the same time as this conference.
[06:54.070 --> 07:02.570]  But for whatever reason, it turns out that that conference is actually at the same time as B-Sides New York City, every single time we've had it.
[07:02.850 --> 07:13.470]  So I guess Shmukon, we must be the B-Sides to Shmukon, which is kind of odd to say because Shmukon is, although it's a big conference, it's still kind of a locally good-feeling conference.
[07:14.370 --> 07:18.070]  But if there was one that we had to be, it had to be Shmukon.
[07:18.070 --> 07:25.310]  I feel like Shmukon is a good conference to be the B-Sides, too, because there are plenty of people, myself included, that were not able to get tickets to that.
[07:27.110 --> 07:28.830]  Yeah, we get that appeal, too.
[07:28.970 --> 07:32.570]  Like Shmukon, it has just great content.
[07:32.770 --> 07:40.990]  But I think, from what I understand, I think they may actually limit the number of tickets to keep it a little bit more personal.
[07:40.990 --> 07:42.410]  And they keep it pretty tight.
[07:42.970 --> 07:52.790]  And so we tend to benefit from that, in a way, because a lot of people who can't make it out or can't get a ticket will end up coming to our event and just making our event that much better.
[07:52.910 --> 07:55.330]  So we appreciate that they do that.
[07:56.790 --> 08:03.610]  Well, it's interesting, because I'm seeing, actually, quite a few interesting conferences going on in New York on the 20th of January, too.
[08:04.410 --> 08:08.570]  The Mid-Year Leadership Conference, so you could be considered secondary to that, perhaps.
[08:08.710 --> 08:09.150]  I don't know.
[08:10.030 --> 08:16.130]  Gender Matters, Fighting for a New Generation, or maybe Highway to the Runway by Fashion Models.
[08:16.670 --> 08:19.110]  So maybe B-Sides could be the secondary.
[08:19.290 --> 08:28.630]  There's also the New York 18 Clinical Conference, which is, strangely, by the New York State Podiatric Medical Association.
[08:28.730 --> 08:38.070]  So, yeah, if anyone has corns on their feet while they're at B-Sides, they could always swing across town to Broadway and figure that out.
[08:38.150 --> 08:40.570]  But this is going on over at John Jay, right?
[08:40.650 --> 08:44.050]  So could you tell us about how you got the relationship with John Jay School of Criminal Justice?
[08:45.090 --> 08:48.110]  Yeah, John Jay has been just absolutely awesome.
[08:48.430 --> 08:52.050]  So John Jay has this just wonderful space.
[08:52.790 --> 08:57.170]  It has this big atrium you walk into, and there's a bunch of rooms right off of it.
[08:57.490 --> 09:10.190]  And what we ended up doing is one of our coordinators was actually a student at John Jay and reached out to Dr. Richard Lovely over there and asked him if he'd be interested in hosting us.
[09:10.190 --> 09:24.250]  And at the time, Dr. Lovely was the head of this amazing group called D4CS, which is the John Jay's sort of digital forensics group.
[09:24.770 --> 09:26.470]  And it's their program.
[09:26.770 --> 09:33.730]  And so what actually ended up happening was D4CS decided to host us the last time we had a conference in this year.
[09:33.730 --> 09:37.810]  And they have just been absolutely wonderful.
[09:38.110 --> 09:39.690]  You know, they give us these...
[09:39.690 --> 09:43.830]  This year we're going to have this big area called Moot Court.
[09:44.210 --> 09:46.470]  And Moot Court is going to hold all of our villages.
[09:46.510 --> 09:48.810]  So we'll have a hardware hacking village.
[09:48.810 --> 09:53.510]  We'll have, you know, as mentioned before, the locking village.
[09:53.510 --> 10:01.190]  We're going to have an embedded device village, even an electronics workshop there.
[10:01.350 --> 10:05.650]  So there's just tons of good space that they have.
[10:06.490 --> 10:11.910]  And they've been really great in just hosting us and allowing the community to get together in their space.
[10:12.530 --> 10:14.410]  There are a couple of things I'm curious about.
[10:14.670 --> 10:18.350]  One of them is who are the nuts having a mid-year conference in January?
[10:18.350 --> 10:18.430]  Sorry.
[10:18.670 --> 10:24.750]  But the other thing is, Brad, if you could tell us a little bit, how did you get involved with B-Sides?
[10:24.890 --> 10:28.050]  Were you there at the start or did you join up with it further on?
[10:29.270 --> 10:29.670]  Yeah.
[10:29.790 --> 10:32.750]  So the first question, like, why in the middle of winter?
[10:32.910 --> 10:36.610]  The thing was, we knew that we wanted... and maybe this will answer the second question, too.
[10:37.170 --> 10:39.750]  I knew I really wanted to put together a conference.
[10:39.950 --> 10:45.050]  It was myself and Glenn Edwards, one of the co-founders.
[10:45.050 --> 10:49.070]  And we knew we really wanted to put together a conference, but we weren't really sure how to do it.
[10:49.570 --> 10:55.590]  And luckily enough, that's one of the great things about B-Sides is that they'll help you out to a certain extent.
[10:55.590 --> 11:04.010]  So you're part of this larger community, and that sort of helps with some kind of brand recognition to a certain extent.
[11:04.430 --> 11:09.410]  But also they help give you some guidance into how you should conduct a conference.
[11:09.410 --> 11:18.890]  And so that was really important for us was, you know, we're not really sure how to put together this conference, but we want to do it and we want to get the community together.
[11:19.230 --> 11:22.310]  And so B-Sides really helped us do that.
[11:22.390 --> 11:27.950]  We were trying to figure out when we would be able to actually hold a conference.
[11:29.030 --> 11:32.130]  We were looking at, you know, the summer, there's so many good conferences.
[11:32.290 --> 11:34.330]  There's HOPE, there's SummerCon.
[11:35.150 --> 11:43.150]  You know, there's all these great things happening in the summer because the weather is so great that we were like, you know what, why try to compete with those?
[11:43.250 --> 11:46.210]  Let's look where the gap is and let's try to fill that.
[11:46.370 --> 11:51.410]  So we picked January, and surprisingly enough, last time we had just about 400 people show up.
[11:51.470 --> 11:54.890]  We're expecting the same or a little bit more for this time.
[11:55.070 --> 12:02.970]  So luckily enough, even though it's cold, people still come on by and show their support and get to learn some cool stuff.
[12:03.810 --> 12:06.690]  Yeah, it's been great watching the whole B-Sides thing grow.
[12:06.810 --> 12:12.730]  I think I went to a B-Sides in Las Vegas that was happening alongside DEF CON, I think about six, seven years ago.
[12:13.170 --> 12:17.610]  And that was a small event just in a sort of rented cabin outside of town.
[12:19.190 --> 12:30.050]  And watching it develop into things like this, like what you're doing with a fully polished event and proper venue and things like that, it's been great.
[12:30.350 --> 12:33.950]  What are some of the lessons you've learned just behind the scenes of these things over the years?
[12:35.110 --> 12:44.850]  Oh man, you know, running a conference is sort of one of the biggest thankless jobs you'll get.
[12:44.850 --> 12:46.310]  Oh, we know, don't we guys?
[12:47.910 --> 12:49.030]  I'm sure you do.
[12:49.910 --> 12:54.290]  It's just, you know, there's so many nuts and bolts that are involved.
[12:54.530 --> 12:55.990]  You have to start just so early.
[12:56.110 --> 13:00.850]  I know on your last show, you were talking about getting ready for Hope, too.
[13:01.430 --> 13:05.550]  And just, you know, there's just so much going on.
[13:05.550 --> 13:07.290]  And you have to think so far in advance.
[13:07.690 --> 13:15.650]  But once the steam, you know, the steam starts really going and you're off to a good momentum, things are really good.
[13:15.750 --> 13:19.150]  So now we have a, you know, we look polished, right?
[13:19.590 --> 13:21.650]  We may not be polished, but we look polished.
[13:22.910 --> 13:24.210]  We have a great lineup.
[13:24.410 --> 13:31.610]  We have actually some people, wonderful sponsors that are actually, you know, helping out with money and those sorts of things.
[13:31.910 --> 13:33.870]  So we're kind of at a good spot.
[13:33.870 --> 13:43.450]  But there's, you know, there's so many lessons learned, you know, in how to pick, how to even ask or solicit a call for papers, right?
[13:43.730 --> 13:47.910]  You know, you want to have a really strong set of speakers.
[13:49.150 --> 13:51.950]  But, you know, those speakers may not know about your conference.
[13:52.190 --> 13:55.750]  And so reaching out to those speakers, begging them just to submit, right?
[13:55.890 --> 14:03.670]  Just to put themselves up there so that we can, you know, determine if the talk is what our audience is looking for.
[14:03.870 --> 14:10.310]  Just doing that is so much work and trying to get a good, solid lineup so that people can actually learn things.
[14:10.710 --> 14:12.190]  And there's a lot of little things we do.
[14:12.330 --> 14:16.690]  So we started this tradition where we actually print out an exploit.
[14:17.030 --> 14:17.930]  So we print out...
[14:17.930 --> 14:21.250]  Last time we printed out a browser exploit for Windows.
[14:21.650 --> 14:26.390]  This time we're printing out another office-based exploit.
[14:26.390 --> 14:34.410]  And we actually print out the exploit and then line for line comment on what every line does.
[14:34.410 --> 14:38.830]  So that if you wanted to implement the exploit, you could and actually follow through with it.
[14:39.330 --> 14:43.710]  You know, those sorts of things take so much time.
[14:43.790 --> 14:45.610]  And I'm not really sure.
[14:45.990 --> 14:50.190]  You know, I'm not sure if every attendee might be reading those exploits or using it.
[14:51.130 --> 14:57.530]  But, you know, the cool stuff with all of it is, you know, the couple of people that really appreciate that.
[14:58.390 --> 15:01.650]  And so I think that's part... you know, you have to have that passion behind it.
[15:01.650 --> 15:06.810]  And I remember my very first 2600 meeting so, so many years ago.
[15:07.270 --> 15:13.750]  It was... it was... it was a cold winter day.
[15:14.070 --> 15:19.970]  And a whole group of people got together and all went to this big arcade called...
[15:19.970 --> 15:24.770]  I think it was like Excess or NXS or something like that in Union Square.
[15:24.770 --> 15:25.750]  And we all got together.
[15:25.750 --> 15:36.610]  And during the meeting, with the people that I just met, we all sort of figured out clever ways to get around the arcade's payment system, which we didn't abuse in any way.
[15:37.190 --> 15:44.230]  And, you know, that sort of stuff, those sorts of things, if they could happen at our conference, that's, you know, that's exactly what we strive for.
[15:44.390 --> 15:50.550]  So, you know, there's a lot to learn, but there's also a lot of good benefit that you'll see, too.
[15:51.330 --> 16:01.290]  Well, that's a great story, and I'm glad you mentioned that last bit about the arcade, because it sounds like Brad's already gone through the hack of the week, so we don't have to deal with that, you know, this week, perhaps.
[16:02.110 --> 16:03.010]  But we could.
[16:03.190 --> 16:04.270]  We always have something prepared.
[16:04.350 --> 16:08.090]  But I do have a very serious question for you, Brad, and I hate to put you on the spot.
[16:08.450 --> 16:13.590]  You know, I can feel the perspiration kind of through the radio waves on your forehead now.
[16:13.590 --> 16:19.970]  So, other B-sides I've been to, the ticket for admission always came with a T-shirt.
[16:20.010 --> 16:21.730]  Is that the case in New York?
[16:22.270 --> 16:23.750]  Oh, for sure, man, yeah.
[16:23.890 --> 16:25.490]  Oh, my God, that's fantastic.
[16:26.290 --> 16:27.210]  The T-shirt.
[16:27.470 --> 16:35.210]  We actually, we have no more tickets for, we opened up the registration, they all filled out.
[16:35.890 --> 16:38.710]  Our tickets are actually free, so they're totally free.
[16:38.710 --> 16:43.370]  We gave out a lot of tickets, so we're hoping for a good response back.
[16:43.610 --> 16:48.750]  But we're planning for at least 400 T-shirts to go out.
[16:49.090 --> 16:52.590]  That's going to include all types of other goodies in a bag.
[16:52.750 --> 16:56.710]  We have this thing called the Sink Stop, which is pretty awesome that we're giving out to our attendees.
[16:56.990 --> 17:01.370]  So, you know, there's some good swag if you are able to grab a ticket.
[17:02.210 --> 17:02.650]  Excellent.
[17:02.850 --> 17:05.950]  And at that price, I'm not surprised they went.
[17:05.950 --> 17:17.970]  But, so, a good question to ask might be, I know you haven't done this month's B-Sides yet, but is there any sort of idea about when you might be doing this again?
[17:19.670 --> 17:21.890]  Yeah, so we try to do them every year.
[17:22.590 --> 17:25.750]  So we try to do them, you know, once a year around this time.
[17:27.350 --> 17:30.810]  And so I'd imagine our next one is going to be around that time.
[17:32.630 --> 17:41.870]  And the other thing that we try to do is, you know, we try to make it a time that's going to be accessible for a lot of people.
[17:42.010 --> 17:49.430]  So usually that's time where we know school is going to be kind of around the corner for college students.
[17:50.170 --> 17:55.730]  And this is important because a lot of the college students, you know, benefit a lot from these kind of, you know, these kind of conferences, too.
[17:56.350 --> 18:01.610]  So we, so it'll probably be around the same time, usually when, you know, right before school is about to resume.
[18:03.730 --> 18:09.730]  And, and people are kind of back from the break of, of, of New Year's and all that stuff.
[18:09.730 --> 18:10.610]  Excellent.
[18:11.070 --> 18:18.490]  Um, one thing I'd love to ask of, uh, members of the hacker community is, um, what got you into all this in, in, um, at the start?
[18:20.350 --> 18:21.370]  Oh, for me?
[18:21.730 --> 18:28.190]  Uh, well, you know, um, man, uh, so, so it's funny.
[18:28.190 --> 18:42.990]  It's actually, so way long ago, um, you know, many, many years ago, I had an old, uh, like IBM PS1 and, uh, my, my older brother was really into BBSs and things like that in the days.
[18:43.210 --> 18:47.210]  And I, I would, I would sort of shadow him to a certain, certain point.
[18:47.310 --> 18:48.710]  So I'd see that he was connecting.
[18:48.770 --> 18:55.090]  He was, uh, he was downloading things that he probably shouldn't have downloaded, uh, lots of text files, all those good things.
[18:55.890 --> 19:06.450]  Um, and, uh, and I would eventually, you know, do the equivalent of kind of going through the history of it and, and, and mimicking what he was doing, uh, ultimately so that I can connect to the BBSs.
[19:06.770 --> 19:10.150]  Uh, and I could, you know, eventually that sprouted into war dialing.
[19:10.250 --> 19:20.070]  And then, uh, you know, next thing I know, there's things like Prodigy and AOL, and I was, you know, writing visual basic punters and all types of embarrassing things.
[19:20.370 --> 19:23.150]  Um, and it just kind of sprouted, sprouted from there.
[19:23.150 --> 19:30.610]  And then next thing I know, I was, you know, doing security research, uh, and, um, and, and the stuff that I'm doing now.
[19:30.770 --> 19:44.050]  So, um, but there was, but I, I gotta tell you, I'd say 2600 had, uh, the, the organization, I mean, you guys had a big impact on, on, you know, my, my learning and my, my upcoming.
[19:44.210 --> 19:47.070]  I, you know, one of the first things I did was, we got really big into freaking.
[19:47.070 --> 19:54.910]  Um, I used to attend the meetings quite a bit, um, you know, there was, uh, I guess being around New York City helped out too.
[19:55.010 --> 20:07.410]  There was a lot of smart people around here too that, that sort of, if I was interested in learning more about any computer system or telephone system, uh, there was somebody that could help me understand that.
[20:07.410 --> 20:10.850]  And, uh, and having that, that sort of community around is really good.
[20:11.110 --> 20:23.590]  I guess, you know what, and that actually, as I'm reflecting upon all of this, uh, all this stuff, uh, I, I guess that's probably part of the reason, you know, why I wanted to, uh, you know, pull people in and get people together for our conference.
[20:24.250 --> 20:26.270]  Uh, I can, I can certainly relate to that.
[20:26.410 --> 20:32.890]  I think most of us in this room can, if not all of us, um, just, uh, we, we've got a good range of ages, I think in this room and on this program.
[20:33.690 --> 20:46.910]  Um, and yeah, we, we hear similar stories, uh, from members of the local scene that there's just so much going on here in particular, but, uh, but also in, also in the world that just, uh, that just inspires and, and, uh, everything.
[20:47.070 --> 20:53.030]  Brad, uh, I want to thank you very much for, for joining us and, uh, we'll let you get back to your life in a moment, but, uh, yes, Alex.
[20:53.030 --> 20:55.950]  One other thing, where, where can our listeners get some more information?
[20:56.990 --> 21:03.050]  Yeah, so bsidesnewyorkcity.org, or bsidesnyc.org is our website.
[21:03.350 --> 21:04.570]  Um, it'll be up there.
[21:04.870 --> 21:11.070]  Uh, if, uh, if you, uh, are, are looking to attend and you, and you really want to, we are sold out.
[21:11.210 --> 21:16.970]  But, uh, if you join our Slack, uh, and, and bother me enough, uh, I'm sure we can find a ticket for you.
[21:17.990 --> 21:19.030]  That sounds excellent.
[21:19.410 --> 21:19.770]  Excellent.
[21:19.910 --> 21:20.150]  Thank you.
[21:20.290 --> 21:20.750]  Thank you very much, Brad.
[21:20.750 --> 21:23.470]  I, I don't know what I, I don't know what I've just signed myself up for.
[21:23.610 --> 21:24.330]  That is true.
[21:24.330 --> 21:26.250]  You, you may regret that momentarily.
[21:26.770 --> 21:28.370]  I hope you have a extra t-shirt.
[21:30.510 --> 21:30.870]  Excellent.
[21:31.050 --> 21:32.490]  And it's been preserved in MP3 forever.
[21:32.690 --> 21:33.050]  But thank you.
[21:33.170 --> 21:33.990]  Thank you very much, Brad.
[21:34.390 --> 21:38.290]  Uh, bsidesnyc, um, dot, uh, dot org.
[21:38.470 --> 21:38.810]  Dot org.
[21:39.570 --> 21:40.770]  Um, thank you very much, Brad.
[21:42.430 --> 21:42.790]  Okay.
[21:43.050 --> 21:44.590]  That was, uh, that was very cool.
[21:44.850 --> 21:45.750]  No, no, no doubt.
[21:45.830 --> 21:47.650]  I mean, bsides is such a great organization.
[21:47.650 --> 21:49.050]  They put on excellent conferences.
[21:49.110 --> 21:51.690]  Some of the best talks I've seen were at bsides sometimes.
[21:52.010 --> 21:53.610]  And, um, this is going to be great.
[21:53.670 --> 21:54.390]  I wish I could make it.
[21:54.390 --> 21:55.710]  I'm actually, I'm going to be on a plane that day.
[21:55.710 --> 21:57.450]  So I'm going to be missing it, unfortunately.
[21:57.870 --> 21:59.050]  Well, also you don't have a ticket.
[21:59.210 --> 21:59.930]  So, I mean...
[21:59.930 --> 22:01.210]  How do you know I don't have a ticket?
[22:01.370 --> 22:02.350]  You've been reading my emails.
[22:03.150 --> 22:05.050]  Or monitoring my, my Slack messages.
[22:05.130 --> 22:06.230]  Only the ones in all caps.
[22:06.670 --> 22:07.190]  But, uh...
[22:07.190 --> 22:07.710]  Right.
[22:07.850 --> 22:08.250]  That's true.
[22:08.750 --> 22:10.130]  Uh, but no, fascinating stuff.
[22:10.270 --> 22:13.610]  I think, uh, you know, I would encourage people to go and check out bsides.
[22:13.750 --> 22:14.550]  They're all over the place.
[22:14.550 --> 22:15.430]  They're in London.
[22:15.630 --> 22:16.150]  They're in New York.
[22:16.330 --> 22:17.050]  They're even in Delaware.
[22:17.730 --> 22:18.750]  Yeah, not just New York.
[22:18.930 --> 22:21.210]  It's, it's this whole scene that's, uh, sort of sprouting up.
[22:21.330 --> 22:27.090]  And, uh, the crowd is, um, is making it happen just as, uh, just as all the best things happen.
[22:27.270 --> 22:30.770]  So, yeah, check out, if you're not in the New York area, check out your local bsides.
[22:31.010 --> 22:33.490]  And, uh, yeah, see what, uh, see what you can see.
[22:34.250 --> 22:35.050]  Yeah, I think it's great.
[22:35.090 --> 22:42.490]  And, and I love that Brad mentioned that, uh, 2600 and going to the meetings had such an impact on this sort of trajectory in life.
[22:42.490 --> 22:42.850]  And you're right.
[22:42.910 --> 22:44.350]  I mean, we can all relate to this kind of thing.
[22:44.550 --> 22:52.510]  Um, and a lot of us started back in the day as phone freaks because the phone system was the biggest and most powerful computer system that we had access to.
[22:52.610 --> 22:53.910]  That was what we had to play with.
[22:54.010 --> 22:55.670]  And, and BBSs are great.
[22:55.750 --> 22:59.810]  You know, I, I'm actually thinking of starting a BBS, one of these old Telnet BBSs.
[22:59.950 --> 23:00.330]  But I don't know.
[23:00.510 --> 23:03.670]  We can take some listener comments about that, whether it's, whether it's worth it.
[23:03.810 --> 23:05.030]  It seems like a giant pain.
[23:05.050 --> 23:09.530]  But, um, I think it would be kind of fun to have a law firm BBS.
[23:09.930 --> 23:12.490]  It's just because it's so anachronistic and ridiculous.
[23:13.030 --> 23:14.650]  Uh, and it's something we can do.
[23:14.770 --> 23:16.210]  Can we get some door games going?
[23:16.350 --> 23:16.490]  Yeah.
[23:16.730 --> 23:20.490]  If you, if you, in prison and you need to make that one phone call, you can dial into the BBS.
[23:21.750 --> 23:25.230]  You're going to, you're going to voice verify your users because I always hated that.
[23:25.570 --> 23:25.750]  Yeah.
[23:26.330 --> 23:26.870]  Oh God.
[23:26.990 --> 23:27.090]  Yeah.
[23:27.130 --> 23:27.650]  That was horrible.
[23:28.270 --> 23:28.910]  Uh, excellent.
[23:29.010 --> 23:29.990]  Well, a lot of stuff going on.
[23:30.230 --> 23:30.610]  Yeah.
[23:30.830 --> 23:34.510]  There's, uh, there's an interesting, uh, there's an interesting story I caught wind of earlier.
[23:34.930 --> 23:39.730]  Um, apparently, um, Emmanuel wants to block websites during elections to fight fake news.
[23:39.830 --> 23:40.290]  Wait, wait, wait, wait.
[23:40.750 --> 23:43.170]  Oh, wait, this isn't our Emmanuel.
[23:43.410 --> 23:43.530]  Okay.
[23:43.690 --> 23:43.970]  Different.
[23:44.190 --> 23:44.850]  I was worried for a minute.
[23:44.970 --> 23:45.510]  It's someone else's.
[23:45.610 --> 23:46.370]  It's France's Emmanuel.
[23:46.850 --> 23:53.490]  Uh, President Emmanuel Macron, um, um, wants to block websites during, uh, during elections to fight, quote, fake news.
[23:54.750 --> 23:59.570]  Now, you, you might've heard something about this whole fake news thing if you've been at all alive or in the past couple of years.
[23:59.790 --> 24:10.090]  Um, but, uh, this, this is an interesting conundrum because, you know, on the one side, uh, blocking websites, uh, that seems like an uncool thing, but on the other side, is it, is there some sort of responsibility attached to this?
[24:10.170 --> 24:10.690]  Alex, what do you think?
[24:10.850 --> 24:16.310]  Hey, this is, this is a really bizarre proposal because I, I think it's, uh, it's half good and half ridiculous.
[24:16.970 --> 24:35.390]  Um, you know, I'll start with the ridiculous part first, you know, which is what he's proposing is some kind of application to a French court to establish that, uh, websites or some sort of outlet on social media or some component of it is, is spreading what is fake news.
[24:35.390 --> 24:49.350]  So, you know, it's obviously so inherently subjective what fake news is, as, uh, evidenced by the president of the United States' Twitter feed, um, that, you know, it's just asking for a lot of trouble.
[24:49.530 --> 24:57.530]  Um, it's also, you know, a, a very simple, but yet arbitrary way to block content and restrict content.
[24:57.530 --> 25:03.470]  And I don't really understand why anybody thinks that that's a good idea these days.
[25:03.690 --> 25:06.370]  I mean, it's just historically been a very, very bad idea.
[25:06.510 --> 25:07.430]  It's never really worked out.
[25:07.550 --> 25:12.550]  These things overblock what they're supposed to block, underblock what they're not, you know, what they're supposed to block.
[25:12.730 --> 25:14.550]  And, uh, I don't know if I got that mixed up.
[25:14.550 --> 25:16.710]  But in any event, you get the point.
[25:16.910 --> 25:32.710]  But it just seems like a very bad idea to have the courts intervene on this particular issue, but also to expect that, that the courts would react so swiftly on an application, uh, without necessarily having or, or creating a game of whack-a-mole.
[25:32.850 --> 25:46.350]  Because if these are websites, you know, that are, uh, residing on domain names, and you put in a, a court authorizes a blocking order to the domain name, and what's so simple to just register a new domain name and have this thing pop up, and then, uh,
[25:46.790 --> 25:51.170]  you know, begin to re-disseminate the nonsense that was the subject of the original order.
[25:51.770 --> 26:05.670]  But on the other hand, what seems to be somewhat reasonable about this, and I wonder if you guys agree, is that, you know, according to the Guardian piece on this, Macron said that the legislation would force platforms to publicly identify who their advertisers are.
[26:06.210 --> 26:22.970]  That's kind of interesting, given the scrutiny that, uh, Facebook is facing, because of these, uh, strange Russian connections to political advertisements, and, and promotion of certain ideologies, and incitements to, oftentimes, or, I wouldn't say often,
[26:23.110 --> 26:29.550]  but maybe sometimes riots on Facebook, uh, that, this seems like a really good idea to me.
[26:29.830 --> 26:35.190]  Yeah, the transparency provisions are definitely something I support, but transparency and censorship are, like, completely the opposite.
[26:35.970 --> 26:49.910]  Like, um, and the fact that, like, maybe even if you trust, uh, Emmanuel Macron and his, uh, interpretations, uh, his judge's interpretations of what's fake and what's not, like, what if, uh, Marine Le Pen gets, becomes the next president, which seems,
[26:50.210 --> 26:51.370]  uh, perfectly likely.
[26:51.550 --> 26:55.110]  Like, do you want, do you trust her, uh, deciding what's fake news and what's not?
[26:55.390 --> 26:56.330]  It's kind of upsetting.
[26:56.330 --> 27:06.390]  Yeah, when, when the basis, when the basic idea of this is that the government, or an agency of the government, is going to be granted the power to decide what is and isn't news.
[27:06.930 --> 27:11.750]  Um, and I don't think anything good has ever come from governmental censorship, censorship of journalism.
[27:12.470 --> 27:16.670]  Yeah, to be honest, Macron's entire, uh, presidency has been very disappointing.
[27:16.830 --> 27:27.950]  He came in, uh, everybody praised him as, like, some upstander of liberalism, and he just, uh, wanted, he just enshrined the state of emergency into, uh, effect permanently through legislation.
[27:28.210 --> 27:35.190]  And now he's criticizing Turkey for having, for telling them, they, telling Turkey not to join the EU because they're too authoritarian.
[27:35.570 --> 27:38.330]  And he's doing exactly the same thing with state of emergency provisions.
[27:39.310 --> 27:40.370]  I completely agree.
[27:40.410 --> 27:52.490]  And you bring up a really excellent point, Voltaire, which is, um, you know, we, we don't want to give, you know, other people, let's say, in this country, the idea that, you know, they could propose legislation like this.
[27:52.490 --> 28:01.070]  This would be a complete disaster if, if this was, uh, you know, being, uh, passed around as a bill in the Senate right now, right?
[28:01.190 --> 28:13.410]  Could you imagine, you know, the ability of, uh, courts to block fake news in this country, given what the president considers to be fake news, which are, you know, generally objective facts.
[28:13.590 --> 28:24.730]  Um, what was kind of neat to me in this particular article is that, you know, Macron said, you know, if we want to protect liberal democracies, we must be strong and have clear rules.
[28:25.250 --> 28:33.530]  I mean, it's just a very, very bizarre proposal here that doesn't really seem to make a hell of a lot of sense on the blocking component of this.
[28:33.950 --> 28:37.850]  Um, but yet on the other hand, the transparency component is really, really smart.
[28:37.850 --> 28:42.330]  And I, and I think we're already seeing a bit of that at work here in the United States.
[28:42.410 --> 28:51.830]  Apparently Twitter is going to be, uh, a little bit more transparent in terms of the disclosure of their advertising revenue and who's advertising and for how much money.
[28:52.010 --> 28:53.270]  And I think that's really interesting.
[28:53.430 --> 28:59.590]  And I would love to see Facebook come forward and not only give data going forward, but also historically.
[28:59.870 --> 29:14.290]  I think the historical data with regard to who's been advertising, how frequently when, and how much with respect to Facebook would be something that, uh, not only the American people would be interested in, but I think Congress as well.
[29:15.470 --> 29:16.310]  Very much so.
[29:16.850 --> 29:19.670]  So, uh, yeah, definitely, uh, we're keeping an eye on this.
[29:19.790 --> 29:27.590]  If, uh, if any of our listeners are in France or, uh, keep a close eye particularly on France and have, uh, updates on this as it develops, uh, please let us know.
[29:27.690 --> 29:33.230]  You can always email us OTH at 2600.com or you could tweet at us at Hacker Radio Show.
[29:33.830 --> 29:39.550]  And, uh, yeah, we, we love an email here at, uh, at Off The Hook and we, we kind of like the tweets too.
[29:40.130 --> 29:41.990]  So, uh, keep that stuff coming in.
[29:42.690 --> 29:48.270]  Um, we'll have, uh, we'll have another guest on in a little bit, but, uh, in the meantime, there's, there are some other things going on.
[29:48.530 --> 30:02.210]  Um, I know that, uh, Voltaire, you actually had suggested that you had something that warrants us pushing a certain button, a certain big shiny button that I'm very happy to have been granted access to.
[30:02.390 --> 30:05.330]  This, this button, it's, it's bigger than the button at your radio station.
[30:05.450 --> 30:08.050]  I'll tell you what, and I'm going to push it now.
[30:40.230 --> 30:43.630]  That was the haunting hack of the week theme.
[30:44.290 --> 30:50.570]  And, uh, that's because an, uh, a certain organization has, has engaged in a hack that we're, we're kind of blown away by here.
[30:50.750 --> 30:51.830]  Uh, Voltaire, you want to tell us about this?
[30:52.050 --> 30:52.230]  Yes.
[30:52.450 --> 31:02.030]  Kodak, the legacy organization, uh, has figured out how to become relevant again and has, uh, got their stock to jump 60% in, uh, one day.
[31:02.230 --> 31:09.450]  And it was by announcing an initial coin offering, which is totally related to their film camera industry.
[31:11.090 --> 31:14.170]  I love that you referred to them as a legacy organization.
[31:14.430 --> 31:15.530]  That's just fantastic.
[31:15.830 --> 31:18.530]  But now they're not because they're, they're based on the blockchain.
[31:18.530 --> 31:19.530]  So they're the future.
[31:19.890 --> 31:21.390]  They're, they're, they're hip and with it now.
[31:21.430 --> 31:23.410]  You know, how do you do fellow startups?
[31:23.410 --> 31:30.030]  Uh, where, where Kodak, but, uh, yeah, Kodak, uh, now has their own or is, has announced that they're going to have their own cryptocurrency.
[31:31.030 --> 31:34.190]  And, uh, yeah, the, the, the world is going nuts.
[31:34.290 --> 31:36.750]  The people who pay attention to these things are impressed.
[31:36.890 --> 31:46.150]  But then again, um, a couple of, I think it was two, three weeks ago, a, uh, an iced tea company changed its name to blockchain or added the word blockchain to its name.
[31:46.350 --> 31:50.510]  And their stock went way up, even though they have nothing to do with any sort of cryptocurrency, they make iced tea.
[31:50.510 --> 31:53.610]  Actually, it turns out that they, they walked back those claims already.
[31:53.970 --> 31:54.410]  So...
[31:55.050 --> 31:57.030]  You know, it, it is fascinating though.
[31:57.190 --> 32:03.290]  And from a strategic standpoint, you know, we, we actually deal quite a lot with cryptocurrencies and my law firm.
[32:04.110 --> 32:19.050]  And, you know, part of the process of putting together cryptocurrency is pulling together, you know, real professionals who can actually create a platform, create a network, understand the technology, understand the marketing of this and, um, can actually pull it off,
[32:19.350 --> 32:22.750]  you know, both from a financial and technical and legal perspective.
[32:22.750 --> 32:32.250]  And so when a big organization like Kodak announces that they are going to be engaging in the development of their own cryptocurrency, they already have the street cred.
[32:32.330 --> 32:33.290]  They already have the executives.
[32:33.470 --> 32:34.690]  They've already got the talent pool.
[32:34.810 --> 32:43.930]  So I could see why Wall Street is going a little nuts for this because here's a cryptocurrency that, you know, could be backed by something like a stock price.
[32:44.190 --> 32:46.610]  Uh, and this is, this is very unique.
[32:46.730 --> 32:49.970]  And I think, you know, from their standpoint, really, really smart.
[32:50.510 --> 32:52.950]  Um, however short-lived it may be.
[32:53.110 --> 32:56.570]  I mean, there was what, what was it about a 40% jump in their stock price?
[32:56.770 --> 32:58.010]  It's, it's still up apparently.
[32:58.310 --> 32:59.650]  That's 60%.
[33:00.190 --> 33:00.610]  60%.
[33:00.610 --> 33:01.050]  Wow.
[33:01.330 --> 33:06.810]  So it went, it went from, uh, oh, and no, it tripled.
[33:06.970 --> 33:10.150]  Apparently it went from $3 to, uh, uh, $10.
[33:10.770 --> 33:11.130]  Wow.
[33:11.370 --> 33:12.770]  So even, even more than tripled.
[33:12.950 --> 33:13.330]  That's a...
[33:13.330 --> 33:18.350]  Although compared to its price in 2014, it was at $40 or so.
[33:19.250 --> 33:20.250]  Well, there you have it.
[33:20.370 --> 33:20.590]  Right.
[33:20.750 --> 33:35.610]  But, uh, you know, this is, this could be something very, very interesting to watch, you know, and a lot of cryptocurrency, uh, organizations have a lot of difficulty figuring out where they're going to incorporate, you know, whether or not the cryptocurrency itself should be regulated as a security.
[33:35.750 --> 33:37.030]  All of this stuff gets very expensive.
[33:37.270 --> 33:40.710]  It's very entangled, uh, legally and technically.
[33:41.430 --> 33:45.890]  And, um, I'm wondering, you know, what is Kodak going to do?
[33:45.990 --> 33:47.570]  Are they going to launch this from the United States?
[33:47.710 --> 33:49.250]  Are they going to register this as a security?
[33:49.450 --> 33:50.470]  How is this going to work?
[33:50.810 --> 33:52.610]  Uh, it's going to be fascinating.
[33:52.910 --> 34:00.910]  Um, and, you know, the SEC has cracked down tremendously in cryptocurrencies because of the potential for fraud on U.S.
[34:01.370 --> 34:01.390]  investors.
[34:02.330 --> 34:08.790]  Um, so, you know, there's going to be a, uh, probably a decreased likelihood of fraud coming from Kodak here.
[34:09.130 --> 34:14.950]  But, um, given these jumps and things that you've mentioned to me, I mean, who really knows what the ultimate game is here?
[34:15.170 --> 34:20.350]  And given that they're based in New York, which has a very restrictive, uh, bit license policy, it might be difficult.
[34:20.690 --> 34:21.270]  Yeah, that's true.
[34:21.430 --> 34:21.550]  Yeah.
[34:21.650 --> 34:27.490]  But they will probably be doing this from another jurisdiction and they may be even be launching this from a foreign jurisdiction as well.
[34:27.890 --> 34:36.450]  And just to really touch on what exactly the point of the ICO is, is to have, um, uh, the digital proofs of ownership of a piece of work.
[34:36.610 --> 34:48.650]  So, and something along the lines of what you have with, um, the crypto kitties, where you have, uh, uh, a cryptographic proof of that you own the, uh, unique version of it.
[34:49.330 --> 34:50.150]  This is amazing.
[34:50.270 --> 34:59.510]  So I think to sum up our hack of the week is best described as if you, if you run a business, just involve cryptocurrency in some way, and it might cause your value to, to leap.
[34:59.930 --> 35:03.930]  Well, it's, it's a somewhat interesting use of the blockchain though, because you know, one...
[35:03.930 --> 35:04.090]  It is.
[35:04.210 --> 35:06.530]  Public relations is an interesting use of the blockchain.
[35:06.890 --> 35:06.890]  Yeah, no.
[35:06.890 --> 35:10.990]  Well, I mean, establishing provenance for a particular, uh, image.
[35:11.210 --> 35:22.550]  You know, if you can trace back that image on a public ledger to a particular person, that's kind of neat when in terms of copyright, uh, you know, may create other issues in terms of copyright as well.
[35:22.930 --> 35:25.270]  But, um, but I think it's, it, it could be fascinating.
[35:25.430 --> 35:36.810]  It sort of reminds me of back in the day of, I, maybe it was around 2012 and Canon was the first company to come out and say that they were going to apply for the top level domain dot Canon.
[35:37.030 --> 35:39.650]  And everybody thought, oh my God, that's so brilliant.
[35:39.690 --> 35:40.530]  It's going to be great.
[35:40.650 --> 35:44.310]  They're the first dot brand that's going to be part of the domain name system.
[35:44.610 --> 35:53.990]  So the top level domain is the, are the domains to the right of the dot on the internet, like .com, .net, .org, and .canon was, I think, the first major company to come out and announce that they were going to do this.
[35:54.550 --> 35:56.870]  But they really haven't used it for anything.
[35:57.190 --> 35:59.290]  I mean, it's been kind of a disaster for them.
[35:59.390 --> 36:01.270]  A little bit of an albatross as far as I could tell.
[36:01.310 --> 36:03.910]  I could be wrong, but, uh, you know, I haven't checked very recently.
[36:04.150 --> 36:12.830]  But it seems to me like this could be something like that, but it does have the potential, I think, to be something rather useful and rather interesting if implemented properly.
[36:13.250 --> 36:13.410]  Maybe.
[36:13.790 --> 36:15.930]  Um, and also with that dot canon, they're sitting on a gold mine.
[36:15.950 --> 36:19.530]  I know a lot of theologians who would love to get a piece of that, and maybe some sci-fi fans.
[36:19.790 --> 36:23.150]  But, um, moving on, we've got, uh, we've got another guest joining us.
[36:23.370 --> 36:26.450]  Um, joining us, uh, remotely is Steve Rambam.
[36:26.590 --> 36:27.050]  Steve, are you there?
[36:28.030 --> 36:29.210]  Uh, I am here.
[36:29.370 --> 36:31.410]  I can't believe my caller ID came up.
[36:32.610 --> 36:34.870]  No, we, we just have, we have our ways and means.
[36:34.990 --> 36:35.290]  You know that.
[36:35.390 --> 36:36.230]  You've known us for a long time.
[36:36.230 --> 36:40.110]  Uh, I have my ways and means of blocking it.
[36:40.250 --> 36:41.470]  I'm very impressed.
[36:42.810 --> 36:44.450]  But, uh, it's, it's good to hear from you, Steve.
[36:44.570 --> 36:48.570]  Now, uh, now, Steve, you, uh, you said you had something that, uh, you'd like to talk about on tonight's program.
[36:48.750 --> 36:50.430]  So, uh, what's, uh, what's going on?
[36:50.570 --> 37:03.430]  Well, I was, I was actually talking with my, my trusted legal advisor, uh, Alex, and he suggested that, uh, that I come on the show in large part, because I don't think I've been on the show for what?
[37:03.710 --> 37:04.930]  A year at least?
[37:05.070 --> 37:06.230]  It, it, it has been a while.
[37:06.230 --> 37:08.310]  This is the first time you've called me trusted too.
[37:08.450 --> 37:11.730]  So I'm really, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm chuffed.
[37:12.090 --> 37:16.170]  You know, uh, it, it, it's required at least twice a year under the contract.
[37:16.410 --> 37:17.450]  Yeah, that, that is true.
[37:17.670 --> 37:18.210]  That is true.
[37:18.330 --> 37:18.670]  Absolutely.
[37:18.670 --> 37:23.290]  Actually, Alex and I work, uh, work together very closely on some things.
[37:23.290 --> 37:43.070]  And there's a couple of things that are going to be happening in New York, uh, very coincidentally in the vicinity of the, uh, Hotel Pennsylvania, uh, that, uh, that Alex and I are working on together that I think are going to be, uh, be very exciting for everyone.
[37:43.410 --> 37:43.790]  Oh, no doubt.
[37:43.890 --> 37:44.530]  No doubt.
[37:44.730 --> 37:46.350]  And there'll be a time and a place for that.
[37:46.530 --> 37:46.850]  Absolutely.
[37:47.350 --> 37:52.390]  Yeah, we can, we can keep it cryptic for, for now, I guess, but, uh...
[37:52.390 --> 38:06.170]  I, I will, I will, I, I, I think it's fair to say that you and I have made a sizable number of bad people unhappy in the past year.
[38:06.510 --> 38:07.790]  Uh, no doubt.
[38:08.050 --> 38:08.470]  No doubt.
[38:08.650 --> 38:15.330]  And some of them, some of them even as, as recently as last week, I think we caused some major, uh, indigestion on Friday.
[38:15.630 --> 38:16.070]  No question.
[38:16.410 --> 38:16.790]  Right.
[38:17.030 --> 38:28.630]  And Alex and I are actually, uh, actually writing an article together on, uh, uh, uh, making people unhappy through the federal court.
[38:28.810 --> 38:29.910]  Yeah, that, that is true.
[38:30.130 --> 38:30.210]  Yeah.
[38:30.590 --> 38:34.470]  And the, in the acquisition of certain information and how to do it.
[38:34.650 --> 38:34.750]  Right.
[38:35.290 --> 38:35.550]  Yeah.
[38:35.750 --> 38:38.070]  Uh, all the kinds of stuff that people need to know.
[38:38.390 --> 38:38.390]  Right.
[38:38.470 --> 38:41.650]  Hacking, hacking for fun, hacking for fun, profit and prosecution.
[38:42.030 --> 38:43.250]  Uh, exactly.
[38:43.950 --> 38:45.650]  So, uh, that's actually not a bad title.
[38:45.650 --> 38:46.190]  It is.
[38:46.410 --> 39:01.530]  But, uh, uh, to, to, to quickly get to the point before I lose the, uh, lose the, uh, uh, phone connection because I am rather far away from New York in the middle of nowhere.
[39:01.530 --> 39:07.770]  And, um, I'm speaking to you through the wonders of science and that's, that's actually not a joke.
[39:07.950 --> 39:08.730]  So you're in Brooklyn?
[39:10.010 --> 39:12.390]  Uh, no, not, not in Brooklyn.
[39:12.690 --> 39:15.910]  Not even, not even within thousands of miles of Brooklyn.
[39:16.890 --> 39:24.110]  But, um, so everyone is, is, uh, aware of course, of a company called Vonage.
[39:24.470 --> 39:28.050]  Uh, they are a publicly traded company.
[39:28.490 --> 39:49.170]  Uh, and they are very, very busy this week, um, trying to interact and interface with investors and, uh, various other people that can benefit them at, uh, couple of, uh, large investment shows.
[39:49.550 --> 39:54.810]  Uh, one is, uh, let me not speak generally.
[39:55.050 --> 39:57.030]  I can probably pull this up very quickly.
[39:57.390 --> 40:15.330]  One is, uh, the, uh, global technology media and telecom conference, which is today in Las Vegas and, uh, and others on the 18th, meaning a week from now, um, the 20th annual Needham growth conference in New York city.
[40:16.010 --> 40:37.830]  Um, and I think one of the things that Vonage is not, uh, disclosing to their potential investors and their potential strategic partners is that they have had a significant meltdown of their, of, of, of some of their systems, uh, related to their core product,
[40:38.050 --> 40:41.130]  which is their, their VoIP, their VOIP service.
[40:42.130 --> 40:46.510]  Um, I'm told they've been targeted successfully.
[40:46.510 --> 40:47.950]  I don't know if that's true.
[40:48.150 --> 40:55.150]  What I do know is that, uh, their routing infrastructure is not functioning properly.
[40:55.590 --> 41:14.730]  Uh, I know that their voicemail system is not functioning properly, that they, uh, have had significant portions of their systems down since I believe the evening of January 2nd, which means, uh, a week and a week and a day now.
[41:15.170 --> 41:22.510]  Um, but more important, they have not notified their subscribers.
[41:23.030 --> 41:24.690]  They have not told their customers.
[41:25.030 --> 41:31.730]  And, and Steve, to interject for a moment, you, you know, this how, because you have personal knowledge of this.
[41:31.810 --> 41:32.190]  Is that correct?
[41:32.410 --> 41:34.270]  Well, I do have personal knowledge of it.
[41:34.390 --> 41:49.410]  I, I have a, uh, you know, as an investigator and as an investigator that does a lot of international work and work on the road and work where I have to keep communication secure, I have a unified communication system.
[41:49.830 --> 42:08.630]  Uh, that is everything from my own mail servers, but I run an asterisk server and I've got Vonage and I've got Skype and I've got other VOIP platforms, including, you know, roll my own and cell phones and old pots numbers, you know, traditional landlines.
[42:09.450 --> 42:39.050]  And, uh, what I did was, uh, we, we unified everything and we pointed a lot of it at Vonage because Vonage had a very useful format voicemail system where you could leave a message and Vonage would actually take an audio recording of the message embedded in an email and email it to any one of a number of email addresses you choose.
[42:39.050 --> 42:45.770]  If you want your voicemail message emailed to five email addresses, Vonage did that.
[42:45.850 --> 42:48.910]  And it worked flawlessly until last week.
[42:48.990 --> 42:54.410]  And all of a sudden I had people calling on my other lines saying, you know, this is really urgent.
[42:54.410 --> 42:55.950]  We need to know, can you make it to court?
[42:56.070 --> 42:56.710]  Can you do this?
[42:56.790 --> 42:57.430]  Can you do that?
[42:57.590 --> 42:58.810]  How come you're not responding?
[42:58.830 --> 43:00.310]  And I said, what are you, what are you talking about?
[43:00.770 --> 43:02.150]  Didn't get any of your messages.
[43:02.750 --> 43:03.850]  That's incredible.
[43:04.110 --> 43:10.130]  And I looked and I saw that the voicemails were actually disappearing.
[43:10.430 --> 43:25.710]  I went into the Vonage control panel and, and being an investigator and also being an investigator who has a number of contacts in the IT community, obviously, all parts of the IT community.
[43:26.150 --> 43:34.410]  Um, I looked into what was going on and I saw that Vonage essentially was having a meltdown in some of its systems.
[43:34.870 --> 43:41.370]  So I contacted Vonage and I actually, um, again, I'm an investigator.
[43:41.650 --> 43:48.890]  I, I spoke to a number of their, of their staff members, uh, both, both in writing and on the phone.
[43:48.890 --> 43:55.690]  And I fully documented it as permitted by New York state and federal law.
[43:56.110 --> 44:04.930]  And they acknowledge that they are, that they, they have not been able to solve the problem that they have their highest tier teams working on it.
[44:05.050 --> 44:05.910]  They've been unsuccessful.
[44:06.890 --> 44:13.970]  Um, they keep pushing forward the completion date, 24 hours, 48 hours, four days, six days.
[44:14.170 --> 44:15.730]  It's now been eight days.
[44:16.490 --> 44:21.050]  The most important thing to know about this.
[44:21.090 --> 44:42.170]  And I want to emphasize this is they could have mitigated the damage being suffered by their subscribers by simply sending out an email saying, dear Vonage customers, if someone leaves you a voicemail, it disappears.
[44:43.450 --> 44:45.830]  Our voicemail system is not working.
[44:45.930 --> 44:51.190]  Here's what happens if you call entire segments of the Vonage system.
[44:51.310 --> 44:58.230]  And I've, I have personally tested it myself through cell phones, VOIP, landlines, everything.
[44:58.850 --> 45:02.370]  You call the intended recipient.
[45:02.470 --> 45:15.830]  If their voicemail picks up, you leave a voice message and you hang up and you logically assume that the person using that phone number will get your voice message and call you back.
[45:16.830 --> 45:21.230]  So in fact, that voice message completely disappears.
[45:21.510 --> 45:21.950]  Poof.
[45:22.370 --> 45:30.270]  Well, I have two questions for you, Steve, on, on that, you know, the first one, from, from a technical standpoint, is it possible for you to know?
[45:30.530 --> 45:39.250]  And if so, can you tell us, um, do the, do you think that these voicemails are actually being stored and then deleted or are they never being stored?
[45:41.090 --> 45:48.010]  Um, the call is being shown as having arrived.
[45:49.310 --> 45:54.750]  If, if a Vonage subscriber, business and residential, I have both accounts.
[45:55.790 --> 46:01.690]  Um, neither is actually tied to a business or a residence, but that's another discussion.
[46:02.190 --> 46:10.470]  Um, if you go to your control panel, it will show that you got a call from 212-555-1212.
[46:11.130 --> 46:16.370]  And then you click the other tab for recent voicemails and there is nothing there.
[46:16.990 --> 46:18.750]  Oh, that's, that's fascinating.
[46:18.950 --> 46:22.990]  I'll tell you what, it's incredibly frustrating if it's a call from, from a restricted number.
[46:23.330 --> 46:35.130]  You see that somebody called you and was connected for two or three minutes, which means they left a lengthy voicemail message and you have no idea who it was or what the hell they said.
[46:35.330 --> 46:35.550]  Right.
[46:35.690 --> 46:43.170]  That would be the case if my voicemail system was malfunctioning the way yours was and you left me a voicemail because you're always calling from a restricted number.
[46:43.570 --> 46:44.410]  Yeah, exactly.
[46:44.830 --> 46:58.370]  I have actually, I have actually communicated in writing with Vonage and I have said to them repeatedly over the past few days, why are you not notifying, notifying your customers?
[46:58.890 --> 47:01.430]  Why are you not mitigating this problem?
[47:01.770 --> 47:04.110]  Why are you not mitigating your liability?
[47:04.410 --> 47:06.010]  These are exact words I've used.
[47:07.350 --> 47:07.870]  Right.
[47:08.130 --> 47:14.650]  And, and I get, and I get pablum in return, I get, I get canned statements.
[47:14.890 --> 47:17.490]  We will escalate this to a higher tier.
[47:17.830 --> 47:19.930]  We understand your concern.
[47:20.610 --> 47:21.830]  Thank you for your input.
[47:22.110 --> 47:24.370]  I will refer this to my supervisor.
[47:24.910 --> 47:32.670]  So is it the case then, Steve, that, uh, you only know about this downtime and you only know about this particular meltdown because you asked?
[47:32.750 --> 47:34.210]  Nobody told you about this.
[47:34.290 --> 47:38.670]  Nobody gave you a, a, estimated... No, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't even, I didn't even ask.
[47:38.810 --> 47:39.850]  I discovered it myself.
[47:39.850 --> 47:51.070]  First of all, unlike the average Vonage customer, I have access to IT experts and IT experts along, uh, along a wide spectrum.
[47:51.970 --> 47:57.930]  Um, I, I mean, it's not an accident that I'm talking to you on the off the hook radio show.
[47:58.050 --> 48:05.970]  I, I interact with a lot of people in the hacker community, in the IT security community, in the law enforcement IT community.
[48:06.410 --> 48:15.930]  So, so, when my voicemail started disappearing, to be very frank, I got a little paranoid and I thought that I was being targeted.
[48:17.110 --> 48:18.110]  Yeah, that's right.
[48:18.290 --> 48:21.450]  Perhaps somebody, you know, which is not entirely paranoid.
[48:21.450 --> 48:25.930]  I've put a significant number of people in jail.
[48:26.170 --> 48:27.870]  I'm doing it with you.
[48:27.870 --> 48:31.230]  In fact, you know, you and I have worked on cases together.
[48:32.070 --> 48:35.830]  So, so, uh, you know, I don't think it was paranoia.
[48:35.990 --> 48:37.130]  I think it was a valid concern.
[48:37.130 --> 48:45.850]  And no, uh, I wasn't, I, first I discovered I was not only not the only one, I wasn't close to being the only one.
[48:46.330 --> 48:51.330]  So this isn't something that's localized to New York, as far as you know, you think this is a nationwide?
[48:51.790 --> 48:59.790]  No, and in fact, and in fact, I have, I have both New York, uh, numbers with them and Texas numbers with them.
[49:00.530 --> 49:10.830]  And I've also got, and I've also got a number of sting numbers with them, where, where they are not in any place I actually live or do business.
[49:10.830 --> 49:13.630]  I use them for, for undercover activity.
[49:14.670 --> 49:17.010]  And everything so far is affected.
[49:18.130 --> 49:18.930]  Yes.
[49:19.330 --> 49:20.090]  That's yes.
[49:20.650 --> 49:22.830]  So, uh, it was very interesting.
[49:22.830 --> 49:27.170]  I actually watched the contagion spread.
[49:27.510 --> 49:33.670]  Um, at first, at first it, it worked.
[49:33.670 --> 49:39.390]  You, you were able to actually leave a voicemail that, that stuck.
[49:40.830 --> 49:43.950]  Uh, that was recorded and made available to the subscriber.
[49:44.350 --> 49:52.670]  If you called from a cell phone, if you called from a wireless number, it was deleting landline numbers.
[49:53.710 --> 50:02.170]  Now, none of my accounts will take any call from any number and save the voicemail.
[50:02.370 --> 50:03.530]  Well, that's bizarre.
[50:03.670 --> 50:10.610]  That's an interesting distinction that you make too, because it would seem to implicate some kind of switching problem as well.
[50:11.050 --> 50:13.230]  It, it, it, I'm sure that's part of it.
[50:13.750 --> 50:17.330]  Uh, if I had to guess, I have no evidence of this whatsoever.
[50:18.010 --> 50:25.750]  I would guess that they were attacked and then they were more successfully attacked and then they were overwhelmed.
[50:26.750 --> 50:27.190]  Right.
[50:27.370 --> 50:33.630]  You know, or, or perhaps, you know, it could be, you know, somebody installed some kind of update, some kind of patch.
[50:33.630 --> 50:37.370]  There was some kind of change made on critical systems.
[50:37.930 --> 50:54.490]  Well, you've got to think that a massive entity like Vonage, and they are a company that routinely goes out and buys 50 or a hundred million dollar companies and incorporates them into their, into their conglomerate, into their infrastructure.
[50:55.110 --> 50:59.150]  Um, you would think that somewhere they have a backup copy.
[50:59.750 --> 51:00.570]  Well, right.
[51:00.750 --> 51:01.690]  And restore from backup.
[51:01.970 --> 51:08.630]  And part of these systems, you know, sort of change control type of, you know, validation, and you have the ability to restore.
[51:08.850 --> 51:17.250]  If there is a, you know, a change that's made, then, you know, you should be able to revert back to a previous version or roll back some kind of updated firmware.
[51:17.650 --> 51:18.490]  This doesn't happen.
[51:19.130 --> 51:20.630]  Uh, this, this sounds like a disaster.
[51:20.630 --> 51:24.970]  Nobody, nobody installs from their only copy.
[51:25.370 --> 51:27.290]  Nobody modifies their only copy.
[51:27.530 --> 51:28.570]  That's, that, that's true.
[51:28.870 --> 51:29.950]  Well, this is fascinating.
[51:30.250 --> 51:32.950]  And I guess, you know, every once in a while we break our own news here.
[51:33.170 --> 51:34.590]  And this is, this is one of those times.
[51:34.810 --> 51:38.850]  And, you know, we thank you for calling in on, on this and letting us know.
[51:39.030 --> 51:42.090]  We'd love to hear from other callers, other listeners, rather.
[51:42.350 --> 51:49.430]  You know, if you're affected, if you're using, uh, you know, and actually, Steve is sort of segues into a very serious question here.
[51:50.150 --> 51:52.690]  Um, is it Vonage or Vonage?
[51:56.610 --> 51:57.690]  Asking the important question.
[51:57.730 --> 51:59.990]  It's a very serious question here because...
[51:59.990 --> 52:03.510]  I think it's, I think it's Vonage rhymes with Vonage.
[52:03.830 --> 52:05.130]  I think that's what happened here.
[52:05.290 --> 52:06.490]  Or Vonage or phone.
[52:06.730 --> 52:10.770]  I think they, I think they, I think they have been, been seriously boned.
[52:10.930 --> 52:25.150]  Look, if, if you are a Vonage subscriber, uh, the way to diagnose this is you go into your panel, you log in, uh, secure.vonage.com, uh, click on your various numbers.
[52:25.150 --> 52:31.530]  If you have more than one and look at the voicemails and look at the incoming calls.
[52:31.610 --> 52:41.890]  If you see a large number of incoming calls and you don't see corresponding voicemails, then you know that you've been affected.
[52:41.890 --> 52:42.990]  That's interesting.
[52:43.210 --> 52:44.450]  And one, one final question for you.
[52:44.610 --> 52:50.290]  What is the estimated time to return to normal service that you recently heard?
[52:50.950 --> 52:52.390]  What's the latest on this?
[52:52.570 --> 52:57.730]  Uh, I mean, I have it in writing from them, uh, that it's going to be within 48 hours.
[52:57.730 --> 52:58.170]  Okay.
[52:58.270 --> 52:58.990]  And when did they say that?
[52:59.050 --> 53:05.490]  I have it in writing, I have it in writing from them on the 3rd of January that it'll be within 24 hours.
[53:05.670 --> 53:05.910]  Okay.
[53:06.110 --> 53:08.110]  So when did they tell you it was going to be 48 hours?
[53:09.030 --> 53:09.810]  Uh, yesterday.
[53:10.170 --> 53:10.370]  Okay.
[53:10.370 --> 53:15.610]  So they've got 24 hours until we, uh, you know, begin asking some more questions.
[53:16.430 --> 53:19.090]  As we say in Brooklyn, don't hold your breath.
[53:19.850 --> 53:20.270]  Indeed.
[53:20.810 --> 53:21.030]  Excellent.
[53:21.350 --> 53:27.210]  Steve, we can't thank you enough for coming on the show tonight and telling us this interesting story, this breaking story.
[53:27.590 --> 53:33.370]  Uh, we're going to be following it and we hope that you will keep us up to date as to any further developments.
[53:34.410 --> 53:36.430]  Uh, I'll take a stab at it.
[53:36.530 --> 53:36.970]  All right.
[53:37.030 --> 53:37.630]  Have fun, guys.
[53:37.810 --> 53:38.050]  All right.
[53:38.190 --> 53:38.370]  Bye.
[53:38.730 --> 53:39.570]  Talk to you soon.
[53:41.010 --> 53:42.990]  Always good to have Steve on, right?
[53:42.990 --> 53:44.230]  It has been a while.
[53:44.650 --> 53:45.210]  Yeah, it has.
[53:45.270 --> 53:46.690]  And, you know, this is fascinating.
[53:46.810 --> 53:50.430]  And, um, I don't think we resolved the, the Vonage, Vonage issue.
[53:51.110 --> 53:51.750]  Uh, you know.
[53:51.910 --> 53:52.710]  I think it's...
[53:52.710 --> 53:52.910]  Vonage.
[53:53.210 --> 53:53.650]  Vonage.
[53:53.650 --> 53:55.450]  Vonage, yes, could be that.
[53:55.530 --> 53:55.710]  Fromage, yes.
[53:56.110 --> 54:00.310]  Um, so, uh, we, we don't have a lot of time left, but, uh, there was one other story we wanted to talk about.
[54:00.490 --> 54:00.930]  Uh, Voltaire?
[54:01.130 --> 54:18.290]  Yes, um, tomorrow the Senate, or the House will be voting on, um, uh, reauthorizing Section 702 of FISA, which is the, um, the provision which allowed a backdoor around the Fourth Amendment, of which the, uh, the NSA relies on for both collection of, um,
[54:18.790 --> 54:22.050]  uh, data, including people's emails, metadata, call, log, everything.
[54:22.410 --> 54:29.570]  Um, and that's, they're voting to extend that for another six years, and, which would, like, kick the can down the road indefinitely, and that would be really bad.
[54:29.570 --> 54:48.570]  Um, you can go, uh, but there's a, uh, there's a amendment up for a vote, and you can, uh, uh, the EFF is asking people to call their, uh, representatives, and, uh, you could go to act.eff.org and click N702 to find out how to contact your representative and tell them to vote to stop this,
[54:48.570 --> 54:51.370]  um, reauthorization of Section 702.
[54:51.770 --> 54:53.750]  Um, and we'll tweet out that link as well.
[54:54.270 --> 54:54.930]  We will.
[54:55.250 --> 55:13.590]  And, uh, on a final note, a sad note, um, a member of the hacker community who, uh, who many knew, or at least knew the work of, uh, James Dolan, uh, co-creator of the SecureDrop software, um, has tragically, um, passed away at age 36, um, who, uh, he succumbed to suicide.
[55:14.290 --> 55:25.390]  And, uh, James Dolan was, uh, someone who worked on SecureDrop with, uh, with Aaron Schwartz, who we've also, um, who was a guest on this program and who also, um, succumbed to suicide.
[55:25.550 --> 55:43.850]  So, um, we're, we're sending all, uh, all our best wishes to, um, James Dolan's friends and family and would like to remind listeners that if, uh, if you're dealing with PTSD, depression, and, um, suicidal thoughts, and things of that nature, please get in touch,
[55:43.870 --> 55:45.610]  uh, with the Suicide Prevention Lifeline.
[55:45.770 --> 55:51.370]  You can find them at suicidepreventionlifeline.org or 1-800-273-8255.
[55:51.750 --> 55:53.830]  That's 1-800-273-TALK.
[55:54.270 --> 56:01.850]  And, uh, they, they will, uh, they will talk with you and, um, see if we can, uh, find another way for things to go.
[56:03.210 --> 56:14.190]  So, uh, as that's, uh, incredibly sad and is just, you know, another indication that sometimes the brightest minds in our community often, you know, are going through the darkest times in their life.
[56:14.190 --> 56:16.650]  And it's important for one another to come together.
[56:16.910 --> 56:30.470]  It's important for people to talk and congregate and all the more reason to go to someplace like B-Sides coming up in, you know, a week and a half and, you know, meet some of your fellow hackers, your fellow men and women who are interested in this kind of thing and,
[56:30.470 --> 56:34.250]  uh, and have some camaraderie and, and, and friends.
[56:34.730 --> 56:47.590]  Um, so it's, it's just really just, uh, a tragic story, uh, tremendous loss of someone who, you know, when you, when you read about his life, he was incredibly humble, incredibly talented.
[56:48.290 --> 56:51.070]  And, um, and it's a gigantic loss for a community.
[56:51.630 --> 56:52.030]  Exactly.
[56:52.050 --> 56:57.810]  And if there's one thing that can be said about the hacker community, it's that it's got, uh, it's got everyone's back.
[56:57.910 --> 56:59.890]  Like it, uh, we, we take care of our own.
[57:00.010 --> 57:05.730]  And so many in the community have, uh, stepped up and offered advice, assistance, a friendly ear.
[57:06.190 --> 57:11.130]  Um, there was the geeks and depression panel at, uh, hope, uh, was it hope X?
[57:11.710 --> 57:16.050]  Um, that, uh, that I believe you can find it, uh, on YouTube under channel 26.
[57:16.050 --> 57:17.010]  We'll tweet it as well.
[57:17.090 --> 57:18.330]  We'll, we'll tweet that as well.
[57:18.790 --> 57:22.430]  Um, that was a panel by Mitch Altman and several others from the community.
[57:23.050 --> 57:41.530]  Um, talking about just the, the sort of unique journey that, uh, people, people in the hacker community and people like those of us in the hacker community who deal with things like depression, um, the sort of unique journey that it takes us on and the ways that,
[57:41.690 --> 57:46.110]  uh, that it can be, um, perhaps mitigated and helped out a bit.
[57:46.870 --> 57:54.250]  So, uh, on that note, uh, do send us your emails, OTH at 2600.com.
[57:54.550 --> 58:03.430]  Do send us your tweets at hacker radio show and do come back next week where hopefully, uh, Emmanuel and Kyle will, uh, have gotten out of the Ukraine by then.
[58:03.790 --> 58:04.970]  Apparently they're trapped there at the moment.
[58:05.470 --> 58:18.130]  And, uh, so we'll find out what, uh, what they're doing on their, on their world travels, but for off the hook on this Wednesday, January the 10th, 2018, this is Rob T.
[58:18.250 --> 58:25.150]  Firefly saying thank you to our guests, uh, Brad from B-Sides, Stephen Rombaum, and thank you for all of you, the listeners who, whom we serve.
[58:26.130 --> 58:27.070]  Have a very good night.
[58:27.070 --> 58:28.510]  Dance,
[58:38.880 --> 58:41.700]  dance, dance, dance, dance.
[58:41.700 --> 58:53.880]  Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance, dance, dance, dance, dance, dance, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump,
[59:04.900 --> 59:06.240]  jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump,
[59:06.240 --> 59:11.760]  jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump,
[59:14.770 --> 59:32.910]  jump, jump, jump What kind of magic spell to use?
[59:33.170 --> 59:34.970]  Something new on the line.
[59:35.510 --> 59:36.430]  And baby said...
[59:37.490 --> 59:42.270]  Dance magic, dance, dance magic, dance magic.
[59:42.550 --> 59:44.230]  That baby spell on me.
[59:46.210 --> 59:51.710]  Jump magic, jump magic, jump magic, jump magic.
[59:51.710 --> 59:53.170]  That magic spell on me.
[59:53.490 --> 59:54.430]  Snap that baby.
[01:00:04.040 --> 01:00:05.580]  Snap that baby.
[01:00:05.860 --> 01:00:07.580]  I saw my baby.
[01:00:08.040 --> 01:00:11.660]  Trying hard as they could try.
[01:00:12.420 --> 01:00:13.800]  What could I do?
[01:00:14.600 --> 01:00:17.240]  My business might have gone
[01:00:20.530 --> 01:00:20.990]  through.
[01:00:21.490 --> 01:00:23.150]  Nobody knew.
[01:00:24.090 --> 01:00:28.590]  What kind of magic spell to use?
[01:00:28.710 --> 01:00:33.010]  What kind of magic spell to use?
[01:00:33.390 --> 01:00:34.710]  Under the line.
[01:00:35.230 --> 01:00:37.630]  And baby said...
[01:00:37.630 --> 01:00:42.310]  Dance magic, dance, dance magic, dance, dance magic.
[01:00:42.490 --> 01:00:44.270]  Put that baby spell on me.
[01:00:46.270 --> 01:00:51.090]  Jump magic, jump magic, jump magic, jump magic.
[01:00:51.090 --> 01:00:53.190]  Put that magic, jump on me.
[01:00:53.430 --> 01:00:54.470]  Snap that baby.
[01:00:54.710 --> 01:00:55.290]  Make it free.
[01:01:08.260 --> 01:01:11.540]  Jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump.
[01:01:12.260 --> 01:01:13.340]  Slap that baby.
[01:01:29.500 --> 01:01:30.000]  Paparaboo.