[00:00.000 --> 00:00.780]  ...to seven.
[00:01.120 --> 00:07.820]  Don't miss the vibrant costumes, decorative floats and sensational sounds from all around the globe.
[00:08.100 --> 00:09.400]  It's all free.
[00:09.900 --> 00:15.940]  Find a place along the dance route or buy tickets to watch from the grandstand at Asta Place.
[00:16.100 --> 00:21.500]  There are free dance lessons in the park or you can shake it loose in the social dancing areas.
[00:21.760 --> 00:25.300]  If you or your group wants to dance this year, register now.
[00:25.540 --> 00:29.040]  All the details can be found at danceparade.org.
[00:29.340 --> 00:29.980]  Shake it.
[00:33.660 --> 00:38.560]  It's 8 o'clock straight up and you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:39.320 --> 00:40.920]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[01:42.710 --> 01:44.450]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:44.610 --> 01:45.790]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:46.090 --> 01:48.610]  Emmanuel Goldstein joined tonight by Rob T.
[01:48.770 --> 01:49.130]  Firefly.
[01:49.350 --> 01:49.950]  Good evening.
[01:50.210 --> 01:50.610]  And Kyle.
[01:50.950 --> 01:51.990]  Hey, what's going on?
[01:52.110 --> 01:52.990]  I'll get a small crew tonight.
[01:53.070 --> 01:53.870]  That's kind of good.
[01:53.890 --> 01:54.450]  I like it that way.
[01:55.090 --> 01:56.110]  Well, not much is going on.
[01:56.130 --> 01:57.170]  Well, actually, a lot's going on.
[01:57.750 --> 01:59.370]  We're going to get to as much of it as we can.
[01:59.370 --> 02:01.570]  Hopefully take some listener phone calls as well.
[02:01.570 --> 02:10.550]  But, you know, I also want to reiterate that it is BAI Buddy Month, meaning that we hope people pledge to be BAI Buddies.
[02:10.670 --> 02:16.530]  That means giving a certain amount every month, a small amount, something you won't even notice, except that you're saying it's OK.
[02:16.570 --> 02:22.670]  It's not like, you know, one of these undercover things that steal from your bank account.
[02:22.670 --> 02:28.510]  No, it's very much something that you're aware of, but you're aware that it is a continuing contribution to the station.
[02:28.870 --> 02:36.810]  Which carries us through seasons and weeks when we're not appealing to our audience for the fundraising.
[02:36.930 --> 02:44.510]  And if you pay attention to your statements, every month you will see a small amount that is withdrawn, and you'll look at that with pride and say, this is my contribution to BAI.
[02:44.570 --> 02:45.110]  How do I do it?
[02:46.210 --> 02:47.710]  Give2WBAI.org is the website.
[02:47.970 --> 02:50.210]  Go there and register as a BAI Buddy.
[02:50.210 --> 02:54.290]  Pick the amount you want to donate, and please, be sure to say, Off the Hook is your favorite show.
[02:54.390 --> 02:55.990]  You know, nobody has said that yet.
[02:56.310 --> 03:02.070]  And every week, we get a list of the shows that have donated, that have gotten donations, and we're not on there.
[03:02.130 --> 03:03.430]  And it's really distressing.
[03:03.590 --> 03:06.750]  So hopefully next week at this time, we'll be able to rectify that.
[03:07.190 --> 03:09.310]  Emmanuel, Off the Hook is my favorite show.
[03:09.510 --> 03:09.830]  Yeah, OK.
[03:09.970 --> 03:13.950]  Now, you've got to go to the website, all right, and pledge something every month.
[03:15.090 --> 03:17.510]  And I'll be happy next week when I see that.
[03:17.510 --> 03:25.110]  Yes, but we should reiterate that you get to pick how much you donate every month, whether it's just a few dollars or something larger, whatever you can afford.
[03:25.850 --> 03:27.050]  That's totally up to you.
[03:27.110 --> 03:29.030]  And all donations are appreciated.
[03:29.430 --> 03:32.210]  And it all gets used to keep us doing what we do here at BAI.
[03:32.370 --> 03:33.790]  Yeah, think very carefully about it.
[03:33.850 --> 03:37.430]  Make sure you're planning maybe for like an annual basis.
[03:37.590 --> 03:38.770]  OK, what is this going to amount to?
[03:38.770 --> 03:46.230]  You don't want to have a surprise or not be aware of what it amounts to after 12 months.
[03:46.410 --> 04:05.010]  So but that is really just a small part of it or a handful of people paying that small amount goes a really long way for us throughout that annual season and allows during these times perhaps for us to fill in where we're not able to.
[04:05.550 --> 04:11.410]  And also hopefully shorten up some of the frequency of the fundraising events.
[04:11.550 --> 04:12.530]  You bought me a sandwich downstairs.
[04:13.490 --> 04:15.070]  That was a nice gesture.
[04:15.270 --> 04:16.990]  Well, I probably cost you about five bucks.
[04:17.110 --> 04:19.310]  I figured you'd probably buy me a sandwich sometime.
[04:19.670 --> 04:20.470]  Sometime maybe I will.
[04:20.610 --> 04:22.270]  Yeah, there's definitely that possibility.
[04:22.490 --> 04:30.430]  But the generosity that you expressed by buying me that sandwich is the same kind of generosity that we're talking about here.
[04:30.430 --> 04:31.550]  You'll feel good for doing it.
[04:31.750 --> 04:32.590]  And it's...
[04:32.590 --> 04:33.130]  Five bucks.
[04:33.130 --> 04:33.810]  You look OK.
[04:33.890 --> 04:34.430]  You survived.
[04:34.730 --> 04:37.010]  It hasn't really hurt you that bad.
[04:37.090 --> 04:40.770]  No, that five bucks for 12 months, you extend that out.
[04:40.890 --> 04:43.630]  I mean, it's like a $60 sort of annual thing.
[04:43.770 --> 04:46.510]  I would pay that to have WBAI here.
[04:46.630 --> 04:48.910]  And we want you to know that that makes a huge difference.
[04:49.030 --> 04:54.630]  If six, half a dozen loyal off the hook supporters were like, hey, you know what?
[04:54.650 --> 04:55.850]  I just want this to be done.
[04:55.850 --> 04:57.610]  I want to know that I've contributed.
[04:57.610 --> 05:01.250]  This is a great way to do it because you don't have to do anything once it's set up.
[05:01.750 --> 05:08.190]  And you can become, you know, one of those handful of people that say, hey, we support Off the Hook.
[05:08.230 --> 05:09.270]  We support WBAI.
[05:09.270 --> 05:10.090]  I hope it's more than a handful.
[05:10.090 --> 05:11.290]  We want to be a part of that.
[05:11.390 --> 05:14.330]  Well, that's really what it would take is just a strong showing.
[05:14.490 --> 05:18.050]  If three people or four people said, you know what?
[05:18.050 --> 05:18.670]  I'm going to do this.
[05:18.790 --> 05:19.370]  Try it for a year.
[05:20.090 --> 05:23.710]  That would be so huge for the station, especially at a time when we're in a transition.
[05:23.710 --> 05:35.550]  We're looking at doing some construction, some other sort of upgrades and capital improvements that combined with just regular operating costs is what your contributions go towards.
[05:35.710 --> 05:44.710]  And it keeps Off the Hook coming to you week after week where we talk about the kinds of things we're going to be talking about for this hour and also opening up the phone line so you can participate in the conversation.
[05:44.710 --> 05:49.110]  So we have all kinds of news to report this week, some good, some bad.
[05:49.210 --> 05:49.850]  This is the bad.
[05:50.490 --> 05:56.230]  We mentioned this story once before, and we've been continuing to follow it.
[05:56.330 --> 06:00.250]  But it turns out that this guy, his name is Eric Lundgren.
[06:00.250 --> 06:01.710]  He's from California.
[06:01.710 --> 06:04.650]  He built a business out of recycling electronic waste.
[06:05.310 --> 06:06.090]  And guess what?
[06:06.110 --> 06:08.110]  He's going to federal prison for 15 months.
[06:08.110 --> 06:26.930]  This is after a federal appeals court in Miami rejected his claim that the restore discs he made to extend the lives of computers had no financial value, instead ruling that he had infringed Microsoft's products to the tune of, get this, $700,000.
[06:28.210 --> 06:37.730]  Yeah, now this appeals court upheld a federal district judge's ruling that the discs made by Eric Lundgren to restore Microsoft operating systems.
[06:37.990 --> 06:41.490]  I'm going to say it slowly so people don't miss any detail here.
[06:42.230 --> 06:45.350]  Discs made to restore Microsoft operating systems.
[06:45.490 --> 06:50.290]  They had a value of $25 a piece, according to this appeals court.
[06:50.490 --> 06:59.390]  Even though what's on those discs could be downloaded for nothing and could be used only on computers that had a valid Microsoft license.
[07:00.030 --> 07:01.530]  Everybody with me so far?
[07:01.530 --> 07:05.670]  Yeah, it bears repeating, this is downloadable from Microsoft for nothing.
[07:05.910 --> 07:11.870]  It's not any kind of shady download, it's something that Microsoft themselves make available to anybody who wants it just by downloading it.
[07:11.870 --> 07:20.470]  I can click on this computer right here, and that computer over there, and your computer, and this one, all the computers are in this room, I can click on them and download all these different copies of this for nothing.
[07:20.710 --> 07:25.870]  Yeah, the value is really in the bandwidth, the postage, maybe the media itself.
[07:26.090 --> 07:27.390]  I'm not done, I'm not done.
[07:27.390 --> 07:28.670]  I have a blank disc.
[07:28.670 --> 07:31.690]  I can burn it onto that blank disc that I've gotten myself.
[07:31.690 --> 07:32.950]  I can do that for nothing.
[07:33.130 --> 07:35.170]  And I can, you know, give that to somebody.
[07:35.310 --> 07:36.150]  But you know what?
[07:36.670 --> 07:39.550]  That's not giving them pirated software.
[07:39.730 --> 07:42.110]  That's not giving them access to the Microsoft operating system.
[07:42.170 --> 07:43.290]  They have to already have that.
[07:43.570 --> 07:48.690]  What this does is allow them to restore it in case something goes wrong with their copy.
[07:48.790 --> 07:51.890]  They still need their copy, their info.
[07:51.890 --> 07:54.270]  They can't have more than one.
[07:54.650 --> 07:58.130]  And that is key to this whole thing.
[07:58.130 --> 07:59.290]  He was supplying that.
[07:59.430 --> 08:00.010]  I get it.
[08:00.210 --> 08:15.770]  I don't see how anyone can send somebody like that to prison, or even if he wasn't like that, to send someone to prison who had done this kind of thing, without having, you know, absolutely no grasp of what it is they're talking about, because it doesn't make any sense.
[08:15.770 --> 08:16.230]  Now, the U.S.
[08:16.290 --> 08:28.670]  Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit initially granted Lundgren an emergency stay of his prison sentence shortly before he was to surrender, but then affirmed his original 15-month sentence and $50,000 fine.
[08:29.370 --> 08:30.730]  It's just, it's unbelievable.
[08:30.810 --> 08:35.490]  Now, he had 28,000 of the discs made and shipped to a broker in Florida.
[08:35.730 --> 08:39.350]  And, you know, when you say things like that, I guess people can say, oh, look at that.
[08:39.450 --> 08:41.150]  That's, what is that evidence of?
[08:41.150 --> 08:45.810]  That's evidence that he had a business and was trying to be successful at that business.
[08:46.090 --> 08:51.330]  He had 28,000 of the discs made and shipped to a broker in Florida.
[08:51.490 --> 08:53.870]  Well, broker, yeah, they can be evil in Florida.
[08:54.090 --> 08:55.290]  You know, it goes on there.
[08:55.390 --> 08:57.770]  There's all kinds of ways you can make this sound evil, but it's not evil.
[08:57.910 --> 08:58.690]  There's nothing evil here.
[08:59.050 --> 09:05.210]  Now, the plan was to sell the discs to computer refurbishing shops for about 25 cents apiece.
[09:05.310 --> 09:11.770]  So the refurbishers could provide the discs to use computer buyers and wouldn't have to take the time to create the discs themselves.
[09:12.390 --> 09:12.790]  Simple.
[09:13.050 --> 09:18.310]  In turn, the new users might be able to use those discs to keep their computers going the next time a problem occurred.
[09:18.370 --> 09:21.170]  And if you ever run Microsoft, you know there's going to be a next time.
[09:21.350 --> 09:21.850]  You know that.
[09:22.050 --> 09:24.150]  Now, in 2012, U.S.
[09:24.350 --> 09:27.170]  Customs officers seized a shipment and began investigating.
[09:27.510 --> 09:32.990]  These discs, they were never even sold because they intercepted it and kept it from being sold.
[09:32.990 --> 09:40.130]  Now, eventually, the Florida broker offered to buy the discs himself as part of a government sting.
[09:40.730 --> 09:41.790]  That's kind of interesting.
[09:42.390 --> 09:46.210]  He called Lundgren and offered to buy the discs himself as part of a government sting.
[09:46.330 --> 09:48.490]  I don't even understand what the purpose of this thing is.
[09:48.890 --> 09:54.950]  He sent Lundgren $3,400 and the conspiracy was cemented based on that.
[09:55.590 --> 09:57.490]  In other words, they had absolutely nothing.
[09:57.490 --> 10:14.250]  So they decided to create something just by saying, these discs that you wanted to get, sell them to me, and at least you'll get something and you won't lose all the money that these people have kept from you by stealing your shipment, which is what they did.
[10:14.930 --> 10:18.630]  Okay, so basically, both were indicted on a...
[10:18.630 --> 10:20.710]  Wait, why were both indicted if it was part of a sting?
[10:20.770 --> 10:21.930]  This doesn't make any sense either.
[10:22.170 --> 10:28.050]  Both were indicted on a charge of conspiracy to traffic and counterfeit goods and criminal copyright infringement.
[10:29.090 --> 10:29.530]  Wow.
[10:29.990 --> 10:33.650]  Wolf made a plea deal and received a six-month home arrest sentence.
[10:33.970 --> 10:34.890]  You know, something about this...
[10:34.890 --> 10:37.850]  This is in the Washington Post, but something about this makes absolutely no sense.
[10:37.890 --> 10:41.990]  If it's a government sting, why is this guy being sentenced for being a part of this government sting?
[10:43.130 --> 10:44.610]  Lundgren then pleaded guilty.
[10:44.770 --> 10:45.890]  Oh, aha, he's guilty.
[10:45.990 --> 10:46.650]  He pled guilty.
[10:46.770 --> 10:54.350]  Well, if you've ever listened to this show, you know that we've dealt with many cases of people having to plead guilty because they had no choice.
[10:54.350 --> 10:57.470]  Because if they didn't plead guilty, they were guaranteed decades in prison.
[10:58.110 --> 11:09.550]  And, you know, if you ever get a traffic offense, you will wind up pleading guilty to something you didn't do in order to prevent more drastic charges from being filed against you.
[11:09.610 --> 11:11.990]  It's the nature of our justice system.
[11:12.070 --> 11:12.650]  That's how it works.
[11:12.730 --> 11:13.470]  Shouldn't be the case.
[11:14.010 --> 11:15.730]  Shouldn't be the case, but that is how it is.
[11:15.790 --> 11:20.150]  So he pled guilty, but he argued that the value of his disks was zero.
[11:20.150 --> 11:21.670]  So there was no harm to anyone.
[11:22.050 --> 11:26.190]  Neither Microsoft nor any computer manufacturers sell restore disks.
[11:26.550 --> 11:29.430]  They supply them free with new computers.
[11:29.670 --> 11:37.970]  They make the software available for free downloading for those who have paid for the software and received a license, typically a sticker with a certificate of authenticity number on it.
[11:38.430 --> 11:43.650]  Now, Lundgren said he was trying to make the disks available for those who needed them and that they could be used only on licensed computers.
[11:43.650 --> 11:49.370]  Now, initially, federal prosecutors valued those disks at $299 each.
[11:50.390 --> 11:52.150]  Yeah, you ever see a disk worth $299?
[11:53.150 --> 11:56.270]  And that, of course, is the cost of a brand new Windows operating system.
[11:56.670 --> 11:59.850]  And that tells you right there they have no idea what they're talking about.
[11:59.970 --> 12:03.130]  They assume that he's selling a pirated operating system on these disks.
[12:03.290 --> 12:04.170]  That's not what it is.
[12:05.370 --> 12:09.690]  Lundgren's indictment claimed he had cost Microsoft $8.3 million in lost sales.
[12:10.070 --> 12:11.150]  Welcome to corporate America.
[12:11.150 --> 12:13.030]  This is how they pull the wool over your eyes.
[12:13.730 --> 12:17.930]  And I'm very curious, you know, how many listeners out there understand what I'm talking about right now?
[12:17.970 --> 12:22.870]  Because you are better than the judges and the courts that didn't understand it.
[12:22.990 --> 12:26.690]  And that's part of what we try to do here is explain things so people can understand it.
[12:26.950 --> 12:29.530]  And this makes perfect sense what he was doing.
[12:29.550 --> 12:30.430]  It was a service.
[12:30.590 --> 12:34.950]  It was something that you should be thanked for, not sent to prison for.
[12:34.950 --> 12:51.450]  Anyway, by the time of sentencing, a Microsoft letter and a Microsoft expert witness had reduced the values of the disks from $299 each to $25 a piece, saying that was what Microsoft charged refurbishers for such disks that they don't sell.
[12:52.110 --> 12:55.670]  So, you know, I guess people would say that is a favor.
[12:55.830 --> 12:57.090]  That is a service that they did that.
[12:57.230 --> 12:59.570]  But it's still completely wrong.
[12:59.570 --> 13:04.350]  Now, both the letter and the expert were pricing a disk that came with a Microsoft license.
[13:04.830 --> 13:07.570]  Now, remember, these disks do not come with a Microsoft license.
[13:07.770 --> 13:09.530]  They're for people that already have that.
[13:09.910 --> 13:16.350]  These sales of counterfeit operating systems, Microsoft lawyer Bonnie McNaughton wrote to the judge, that is a lie.
[13:17.130 --> 13:19.210]  No counterfeit operating system was on those disks.
[13:20.610 --> 13:26.090]  These sales displaced Microsoft's potential sales of genuine operating systems.
[13:27.010 --> 13:34.210]  Again, according to this Washington Post article, Lundgren's disks had no licenses and were intended for computers that already had licenses.
[13:35.710 --> 13:41.330]  Still, they decided Lundgren's $28,000 restore disks had a value of $700,000.
[13:41.810 --> 13:47.130]  And that dollar amount qualified Lundgren for a 15-month sentence and a $50,000 fine.
[13:47.130 --> 13:47.650]  Congratulations.
[13:48.350 --> 13:48.930]  Congratulations.
[13:48.930 --> 13:49.510]  You qualify.
[13:49.790 --> 14:00.150]  The judge said he disregarded the testimony that basically explained what this...
[14:00.150 --> 14:02.490]  the fact that the disks were worth nothing.
[14:02.870 --> 14:06.630]  Lundgren said, I don't think anybody in that courtroom understood what a restored disk was.
[14:06.750 --> 14:07.730]  And I would tend to agree.
[14:07.990 --> 14:10.530]  Now, Microsoft issued a statement on Wednesday.
[14:11.110 --> 14:16.670]  It might have been last Wednesday, actually, explaining why they participated in the prosecution of Lundgren.
[14:16.670 --> 14:21.590]  And maybe people who use Microsoft products should take note of their logic here.
[14:22.310 --> 14:27.090]  It was to discourage both counterfeiting and the spread of malware within counterfeit software.
[14:27.930 --> 14:28.630]  You know what?
[14:28.690 --> 14:33.670]  You might as well have thrown in smallpox, too, because he's as responsible for that as for either of those two things.
[14:33.830 --> 14:34.390]  You know?
[14:35.090 --> 14:40.270]  We stand against the proliferation of these deadly diseases, and that's why we went after Lundgren.
[14:40.450 --> 14:41.430]  It makes no sense.
[14:41.870 --> 14:42.570]  This is a quote.
[14:42.570 --> 14:52.490]  Microsoft actively supports efforts to address e-waste and has worked with responsible e-recyclers to recycle more than 11 million kilograms of e-waste since 2006.
[14:53.630 --> 14:59.390]  If you don't remember, this guy was heavy into that world of recycling e-waste.
[14:59.510 --> 15:01.230]  He deserves a lot of credit for that.
[15:01.870 --> 15:10.270]  Now, they go on to say, Unlike most e-recyclers, Mr. Lundgren sought out counterfeit software, which he disguised as legitimate and sold to other refurbishers.
[15:10.430 --> 15:21.330]  This counterfeit software exposes people who purchase recycled PCs to malware and other forms of cybercrime, which puts their security at risk and ultimately hurts the market for recycled products.
[15:21.990 --> 15:25.710]  Any evidence of that, any proof of that, it was not presented in court.
[15:25.930 --> 15:28.130]  This is just a complete bold-faced lie.
[15:28.130 --> 15:35.670]  Okay, someone can just go in and say that and get away with it while someone who's completely innocent and doing a public service winds up going to prison.
[15:35.890 --> 15:39.890]  Now, the idea of spreading dangerous malware was not discussed in Lundgren's case.
[15:40.110 --> 15:45.570]  A Microsoft spokesman declined to address the chief issue which sent Lundgren to prison.
[15:45.670 --> 15:47.990]  Keep in mind the gravity of that statement.
[15:48.190 --> 15:56.830]  A Microsoft spokesman declined to address the very reason why they went after this guy because they don't have the answer themselves.
[15:56.830 --> 15:58.270]  They know it's all nonsense.
[15:58.730 --> 16:08.790]  And now, of course, the topic was whether the restore disks were worth $25 apiece, as Microsoft claimed, or worth zero since they could be freely downloaded, as Lundgren argued, and was ignored.
[16:08.950 --> 16:10.710]  Now, Lundgren said, I'm going to prison.
[16:10.870 --> 16:11.510]  I've accepted it.
[16:12.070 --> 16:15.370]  What I'm not okay with is people not understanding why I'm going to prison.
[16:15.490 --> 16:20.250]  And I hope if there's nothing else that we can do, we can at least make that clear.
[16:21.150 --> 16:26.090]  Yeah, and to make things totally clear, I mean, it bears repeating what this guy does for a living.
[16:26.690 --> 16:33.670]  Eric Lundgren, you can follow him on Twitter at CEO Mr. Green, and I guess he won't be posting for a while, but you can look over the things he's posted so far.
[16:34.370 --> 16:47.610]  He is way into e-waste recycling, taking old computers that would get thrown out, that would end up in a landfill somewhere, that would end up leaching, you know, poisonous chemicals into the earth, and refurbishing them, fixing them up so that people can use them again.
[16:47.610 --> 16:58.870]  And the software that people need for these, they want an operating system, you could use a free one, or if you want a Microsoft one, you could download the software from Microsoft, but you still need a license.
[16:59.110 --> 17:06.250]  Now, if you have a computer, that's the little sticker with a string of alphanumerics on the side, that's your license key to unlock your copy of the software.
[17:06.590 --> 17:08.550]  Without that, the software is useless.
[17:08.790 --> 17:15.370]  The software was not altered in any way, like you might find in shady downloads, to circumvent that requirement.
[17:15.370 --> 17:19.130]  It was the same thing that Microsoft would give you for free.
[17:19.350 --> 17:23.730]  All Eric Lundgren was doing was saving people the trouble of downloading it.
[17:23.910 --> 17:25.650]  He would provide it to them on a disk.
[17:25.890 --> 17:32.570]  And for his troubles, he's been basically convicted of something he patently did not do.
[17:32.870 --> 17:39.630]  The legal community, the technical community, everyone commenting on this on social media, people who know what this is are absolutely baffled everywhere.
[17:39.910 --> 17:43.810]  No one can understand why the judge would have did what he did here.
[17:44.130 --> 17:45.070]  I understand.
[17:45.670 --> 17:47.390]  I understand the reason why.
[17:47.510 --> 17:48.290]  They didn't understand.
[17:48.430 --> 17:48.870]  That's the reason.
[17:48.930 --> 17:50.870]  They think it's something that it was not.
[17:51.330 --> 18:06.050]  And, you know, there is one element to this, where I could see them basically ignoring all of the facts and looking at this one issue and saying, aha, and that's the fact that there was a logo on the disks that looked like a Microsoft logo.
[18:06.090 --> 18:08.170]  And it's only for the purpose of being recognizable.
[18:08.630 --> 18:09.790]  But, okay, you know what?
[18:09.930 --> 18:14.950]  If you're going to charge somebody for using your logo without permission, charge them for that then.
[18:15.490 --> 18:19.710]  But that is not an imprisonable offense by any stretch of the imagination.
[18:20.210 --> 18:23.730]  That is something I could see them saying, yeah, this proves it.
[18:23.770 --> 18:24.570]  It doesn't prove anything.
[18:25.090 --> 18:25.990]  Yeah, that sort of thing.
[18:26.050 --> 18:26.810]  Misuse of the logo.
[18:26.810 --> 18:28.830]  I mean, I'm not our resident lawyer.
[18:29.030 --> 18:30.550]  He's out on assignment somewhere.
[18:30.690 --> 18:31.410]  Yeah, where is he?
[18:31.490 --> 18:32.350]  I don't know.
[18:32.450 --> 18:41.290]  But, you know, I do know enough about this sort of thing to say, I think with a reasonable degree of certainty, that the logo thing in itself would be just a simple civil matter.
[18:41.630 --> 18:44.930]  Like, it would be something that, okay, you're not supposed to do that.
[18:45.110 --> 18:49.770]  You know, if he's found guilty of that, he'd have to pay some kind of fine or something like that.
[18:49.890 --> 18:52.910]  He would not be sent to prison for a year and three months over it.
[18:53.490 --> 19:22.490]  Yeah, I'm like a little concerned about his representation or just the overbearing nature of the way this was characterized or the way the court let it be characterized seemingly falsely because it really, it's, the whole point, the whole structure was to take things that were unusable in a current form and use the tools that are available and make that access to those tools as wide and as
[19:22.490 --> 19:24.170]  accessible as possible.
[19:25.030 --> 19:30.630]  And yeah, I mean, it just, so he did have like a small business model created.
[19:30.990 --> 19:34.610]  It just seems like he was entrapped almost by this other party.
[19:34.870 --> 19:44.070]  And in this quote, this alleged sting, like someone got wind of these disks and decided it looked bad enough to be tried in this way.
[19:44.290 --> 19:52.870]  And the whole software industry, their big thing for the past 15, 20 years, whatever, is, has been that when you buy software, you're not buying ownership of the software itself.
[19:52.870 --> 19:54.550]  You're buying a license to the software.
[19:54.790 --> 19:57.470]  That's what you're paying 300 bucks for when you buy a new copy of Windows.
[19:57.650 --> 20:01.610]  You're paying for the license represented by the little sticker with the, with the code of numbers and letters.
[20:02.310 --> 20:04.710]  So this is not what he was distributing.
[20:04.930 --> 20:10.450]  He was distributing the bare code, the software itself that you need the, the, the license to unlock.
[20:10.450 --> 20:20.390]  Yeah, all of this was a theoretical nature and they did not bring forth a single person who bought anything pirated from him, any, any victims at all.
[20:20.490 --> 20:24.090]  It's all basically corporate logic that the court bought.
[20:24.770 --> 20:25.330]  Yeah.
[20:25.510 --> 20:45.290]  And I, I recently, I went through something similar to this and I think that, you know, anybody who's, who's bought proprietary software or participated in the life cycle of these applications or these operating systems, it has probably got a similar story about just basically where you're kind of left in the dust on an upgrade or,
[20:45.290 --> 20:49.250]  or you tend to have to pay for something once and then pay for it again.
[20:49.450 --> 21:12.610]  The, the thing that Rob said that is, is absolutely been happening in this trend towards a certain software as a service is this model of subscribing sort of like people subscribe in apps or, or any kind of, I guess, subscription model that, that gives you your data or lets you listen in.
[21:12.750 --> 21:25.710]  If it's saying a streaming service, these kinds of application ownership model or lack of ownership are sort of the antithesis of what, the way a lot of the software came about.
[21:25.710 --> 21:42.150]  This happens with media, has been happening with media software and, you know, graphic design packages basically becoming something that's hosted somewhere else and is run locally if you have the right credentials as opposed to getting, getting a box from a physical store,
[21:42.330 --> 21:47.230]  which is sort of the emergence and what we grew up with or how this stuff came about.
[21:47.430 --> 21:54.970]  Well, the OS in Microsoft is also moving in this direction and that's kind of, this is the fallout of that.
[21:55.190 --> 22:03.930]  And my personal story is just basically that I had an OEM hard drive that was built for a specific computer, namely a laptop.
[22:04.250 --> 22:04.490]  OEM.
[22:04.790 --> 22:06.490]  Yes, an OEM machine.
[22:06.750 --> 22:08.990]  No, I'm asking you to just say what OEM is for people who aren't.
[22:08.990 --> 22:11.450]  Original equipment manufacturer.
[22:12.890 --> 22:18.390]  So the OS was not something that could apply to any other motherboard.
[22:19.250 --> 22:27.810]  Even though I had already paid for the software, it was only to be used on the original motherboard that it was installed upon.
[22:28.070 --> 22:33.370]  And I've since put it into another machine and backed up, of course, all the data.
[22:33.630 --> 22:35.750]  And yeah, it's a totally different motherboard.
[22:35.750 --> 22:37.670]  And it says, oh, this is not genuine.
[22:38.190 --> 22:42.590]  Well, getting aggravated with that, I tried to, okay, well, how can I make right by this?
[22:43.210 --> 22:44.950]  Again, I've already paid for this.
[22:45.070 --> 22:51.830]  And this is where, you know, free and open source software, this is where that argument of ownership and being free with software, this is where this kind of comes in.
[22:51.830 --> 23:02.170]  Because you either have to have the battle scars to accept the lunacy of Microsoft, or you have to have already found alternatives and avoided this entire conundrum.
[23:02.330 --> 23:14.210]  But say you're on the bandwagon already and you're going to ride it out and try to do what's right or at least not have the annoyance of being accused of something by your operating system.
[23:15.070 --> 23:26.050]  That absurdity aside, I went out and tried to buy, this instance was like a home edition or something, you know, a low version of Microsoft, just on a random PC.
[23:26.390 --> 23:29.170]  That process cost me like $30.
[23:29.170 --> 23:38.710]  I went through some other site, you know, got a product key only to enter it and have it refused by the OS because of this OEM stipulation.
[23:38.870 --> 23:39.630]  You paid $30.
[23:39.830 --> 23:40.310]  What'd you pay for?
[23:40.450 --> 23:47.870]  I paid for a home edition, but not a home edition that could do anything to help my situation with this OEM installation.
[23:48.210 --> 23:49.870]  So even trying to do it...
[23:49.870 --> 24:01.270]  And of course, this sort of Windows upgrade, they have this thing called Anytime Upgrade and that doesn't work anymore because if you're, you know, working with Windows 7 or things that have since depreciated, on and on and on and on.
[24:01.370 --> 24:22.630]  So this is the peril of proprietary software that you face and being at the mercy of these very, very large companies who want to change their business model on a moment's notice, yank rights and software packages out from under you because they've decided they need to re-up and get more money from you.
[24:22.830 --> 24:25.090]  All of these perils are out there.
[24:25.190 --> 24:37.730]  And here's someone who is navigating that with stuff that these manufacturers put on their sites, producing a business that essentially prevents this stuff from becoming garbage faster.
[24:38.270 --> 24:43.330]  And he's taken to task and now put in jail.
[24:43.550 --> 24:45.130]  I think that is absurd.
[24:45.330 --> 24:56.070]  And again, I'm questioning his representation or just the general lunacy in that courtroom because it just seems really, really short-sighted.
[24:56.190 --> 24:59.050]  And again, to just make a mockery of the guy.
[24:59.370 --> 25:01.830]  Yeah, no, I think there is some blame to be shared.
[25:03.210 --> 25:12.810]  Maybe the arguments weren't made in the best possible way, but, you know, an obstinate court, a judge that doesn't understand technology, those are hard things to get past.
[25:13.010 --> 25:22.210]  And when you have Microsoft spreading what amount to the complete lies about this, misleading people and throwing money around, that is also a mountain to climb.
[25:22.510 --> 25:26.410]  And none of us have that ability, I don't think.
[25:26.490 --> 25:27.810]  So we are all in danger by this.
[25:27.970 --> 25:29.470]  We're going to continue following this story.
[25:29.470 --> 25:38.570]  It is really a tragic story, I think, and one that is of great interest to us in the hacker community because it just reeks of injustice.
[25:39.710 --> 25:40.910]  And you can read more about it.
[25:40.990 --> 25:45.890]  Just look up Eric Lundgren on the news and I'm sure you'll see some stories at least about it.
[25:46.030 --> 25:46.950]  Who else is going to prison?
[25:47.110 --> 25:57.350]  Okay, a teenage hacker who rose to fame for hacking into the online accounts of former CIA director John Brennan, former director of intelligence James Clapper, another high-profile U.S.
[25:57.430 --> 26:01.030]  government employee, got sentenced to two years in prison on Friday.
[26:01.170 --> 26:14.430]  Now, for a few months in late 2015 and early 2016, Cain Gamble, who went by the alias Cracker at the time, was the alleged 15-year-old leader of a hacking group calling themselves Crackers with Attitude or CWA.
[26:14.790 --> 26:21.970]  They broke into Brennan's AOL email account and the CIA is using AOL.
[26:22.190 --> 26:25.030]  I mean, you know, that right there, come on, give the guy a pass.
[26:25.110 --> 26:26.130]  He revealed that information.
[26:26.810 --> 26:30.310]  Clapper's internet provider account, others including a White House official.
[26:30.750 --> 26:35.190]  You know, I'm not endorsing any of this, but these are things I think people need to know.
[26:35.310 --> 26:44.930]  If people that high up in government are using accounts that are wide open to abuse, would you rather it be a 15-year-old kid or somebody who knows how to cover their trail?
[26:46.230 --> 26:49.810]  Yeah, you know, he did something wrong, but two years in prison for, you know, a kid?
[26:50.150 --> 26:51.250]  I'm not sure about that.
[26:51.530 --> 26:56.550]  He was arrested in February 2016, pled guilty to 10 hacking charges in October of last year.
[26:57.050 --> 26:57.870]  He's now 18.
[26:57.870 --> 27:04.450]  He was sentenced Friday in London after his first sentencing hearing in January was postponed.
[27:05.730 --> 27:13.970]  During the hearing, the judge said Gamble was the leader of a cyber gang that carried out an extremely nasty campaign of politically motivated cyber terrorism.
[27:14.610 --> 27:15.090]  All right.
[27:15.290 --> 27:16.610]  Come on, judge, please.
[27:17.450 --> 27:18.650]  Cyber terrorism?
[27:19.010 --> 27:21.170]  Where is the terror in this?
[27:21.410 --> 27:28.910]  You know, a guy drives a van down a sidewalk or shoots up a Waffle House, but, you know, he's a white guy so it's not terrorism.
[27:29.110 --> 27:34.990]  But this guy hacks into the CIA chief's AOL account and he's a terrorist?
[27:35.430 --> 27:36.490]  Explain that to me.
[27:36.630 --> 27:39.250]  Explain where the terror is, where that enters into it.
[27:40.230 --> 27:43.770]  Their modus operandi was to use social engineering.
[27:43.770 --> 27:45.890]  I'm talking about the group CWA that he was part of.
[27:46.070 --> 27:54.330]  Use social engineering to convince support workers of internet and phone providers to reset the victim's passwords and give the hackers access to their accounts.
[27:54.330 --> 28:01.010]  Then the hackers would sometimes prank and harass the victims and subsequently brag about the hacks on Twitter and with reporters.
[28:01.130 --> 28:03.970]  In other words, the same thing that kids have been doing forever.
[28:04.350 --> 28:04.990]  All right.
[28:05.170 --> 28:05.790]  It sucks.
[28:05.970 --> 28:07.210]  It was childish.
[28:07.610 --> 28:08.910]  They were kids.
[28:10.190 --> 28:10.690]  Prison?
[28:11.190 --> 28:11.690]  Terrorism?
[28:12.010 --> 28:12.390]  Come on.
[28:12.470 --> 28:13.230]  Let's get real here.
[28:13.890 --> 28:23.690]  Yeah, this is only a notable story because the targets were government officials, but it was government officials' personal America Online accounts, not their .gov accounts or anything.
[28:23.910 --> 28:30.690]  So, ostensibly, there shouldn't have been anything government-flavored in there for these kids to find if these officials were doing their jobs properly.
[28:31.110 --> 28:41.290]  But all that aside, yeah, this is a bit of ridiculousness and it's basically a couple of kids being dumbasses, which happens, which has, does, and will happen.
[28:41.290 --> 28:42.490]  But, yeah.
[28:42.490 --> 28:53.810]  If I could sentence all the kids who have been dumbasses in my presence over the years, my God, IRC alone, they've been away for decades, just, you know, for the things they say and do.
[28:54.190 --> 29:05.810]  Come on, you have to develop a thick skin here and realize that, yeah, okay, maybe he could have used a better password, maybe, you know, don't use AOL if you're running the CIA, you have better things to do.
[29:07.550 --> 29:13.490]  But, you know, misusing words like terrorism and sending kids to prison, I don't think those are the answers.
[29:13.690 --> 29:14.690]  Yeah, something should be done.
[29:15.010 --> 29:16.090]  I'm not saying nothing should be done.
[29:16.410 --> 29:22.150]  But, you know, there's enough people worthy of being in prison to waste the space with people like this.
[29:22.650 --> 29:26.790]  Yeah, I mean, the word terrorism, who was actually being terrorized by...
[29:26.790 --> 29:27.070]  By...
[29:27.070 --> 29:28.250]  Democracy was, Rob.
[29:28.430 --> 29:29.790]  Democracy was terrorized.
[29:30.850 --> 29:34.290]  Democracy is not a human being and therefore cannot be afraid of things.
[29:34.850 --> 29:36.330]  Well, this one certainly is.
[29:36.330 --> 29:40.230]  But, okay, here's another fun example of something that happened.
[29:40.570 --> 29:42.030]  Nineteen-year-old Nova Scotia.
[29:42.150 --> 29:45.230]  He wanted to learn about the provincial teachers dispute.
[29:45.670 --> 29:48.250]  It seems so innocent, but it didn't end that way.
[29:48.370 --> 29:51.870]  He filed some freedom of information requests, which you can do in Canada.
[29:52.290 --> 29:54.610]  He wasn't satisfied with their response.
[29:54.610 --> 29:58.590]  This is where he got into trouble by not being satisfied with what he was told.
[29:59.290 --> 30:05.510]  He decided to dig through other documents the province had released under open records laws to look for more.
[30:05.650 --> 30:07.990]  But he couldn't find a search tool that was adequate to the job.
[30:09.290 --> 30:13.670]  Well, most of us would have given up at that point and just gotten on with our dreary lives, but he did not.
[30:13.830 --> 30:17.830]  He noticed that the URL for the response to his request ended with a long number.
[30:18.930 --> 30:20.750]  Yeah, a long number.
[30:20.990 --> 30:27.890]  And by changing that number, adding or subtracting from it, what else would you do with a number?
[30:29.130 --> 30:29.530]  Thanks.
[30:29.670 --> 30:31.070]  Thanks, reporter, for that.
[30:31.330 --> 30:36.030]  He could access other public documents published by the government in response to public requests.
[30:36.890 --> 30:40.570]  And what he did was he wrote a one-line program.
[30:41.530 --> 30:45.310]  Man, I don't even know how to write a one-line program that says hello in basic.
[30:46.430 --> 30:47.210]  I really don't.
[30:47.290 --> 30:51.390]  Well, I mean, I can say print open quote hello, but, you know, you have to...
[30:51.750 --> 30:53.450]  I guess that's all you need, right?
[30:53.450 --> 30:55.510]  You don't need a go-to or anything like that.
[30:55.590 --> 30:55.910]  Okay, fine.
[30:55.930 --> 30:59.710]  I can write one one-line program, but that's all, you know, just to say a word.
[30:59.850 --> 31:05.750]  He wrote a one-line program to grab all the public records and was planning on searching them once they were on his hard drive.
[31:06.450 --> 31:08.290]  I can't tell you the number of times...
[31:08.290 --> 31:17.630]  I haven't done it in one line, but I've W-getted sites, you know, W-getted entire websites because, you know, I don't have to click on every single thing I want to download.
[31:17.630 --> 31:18.610]  I want it all.
[31:19.090 --> 31:22.430]  And if it's possible to get it all, you should be able to, right?
[31:22.830 --> 31:31.250]  Yes, we've used that for compiling documents and stuff in the early days of WikiLeaks before they changed it.
[31:31.670 --> 31:32.630]  We grabbed all...
[31:32.630 --> 31:36.530]  We offered WikiLeaks as a premium right here on these airwaves and that's how we did it.
[31:36.610 --> 31:37.930]  We W-getted WikiLeaks.
[31:38.190 --> 31:39.110]  Come after us.
[31:39.270 --> 31:40.170]  People have done it to us.
[31:40.310 --> 31:42.010]  That's how you get all the episodes of Off the Hook.
[31:42.030 --> 31:44.410]  You can W-get the entire library.
[31:44.990 --> 31:45.950]  We're not going to tell you how.
[31:46.250 --> 31:47.810]  Figure it out on your own, but it's easy.
[31:48.150 --> 31:53.950]  All right, and this is something that I think anybody with any degree of curiosity would have done.
[31:54.230 --> 31:58.170]  So, okay, he wound up grabbing all the public records.
[31:58.250 --> 31:59.510]  And keep in mind, these are public records too.
[32:00.110 --> 32:06.650]  On the following Wednesday, 15 police officers raided his home, terrorizing his family, including his very young siblings.
[32:06.890 --> 32:10.870]  They even arrested one of his younger brothers while he was walking home from school on the street.
[32:11.090 --> 32:18.090]  They seized all the family's electronics, including the phone and computer that his father depends on for his livelihood.
[32:19.290 --> 32:21.630]  And this kid now faces criminal charges, possible jail time.
[32:21.910 --> 32:25.170]  Now, why would they do this exactly?
[32:25.510 --> 32:33.090]  Well, it turns out the government had unwisely uploaded private and confidential documents to its open directory of public open records.
[32:33.530 --> 32:35.070]  Yeah, they screwed up.
[32:35.190 --> 32:39.790]  And they're charging this team with improperly accessing those confidential documents.
[32:40.030 --> 32:47.230]  Hey, Canada or Nova Scotia, whatever government this is, when you leak something, it's no longer confidential.
[32:48.030 --> 32:50.290]  I mean, you might be able to call it confidential.
[32:50.510 --> 32:51.790]  You might be able to pretend it's confidential.
[32:52.030 --> 32:56.290]  But as soon as you spill it onto the street, it becomes publicly available.
[32:56.290 --> 32:57.690]  You did that this time.
[32:57.810 --> 32:58.990]  You're the ones that did it.
[32:59.170 --> 33:01.550]  You can't put the genie back in the bottle.
[33:01.590 --> 33:06.130]  And you certainly can't charge a kid with a crime for finding it.
[33:06.310 --> 33:07.910]  But that's what they're doing.
[33:08.110 --> 33:15.690]  Yeah, the kid was using software to look at what was ostensibly an entirely public resource, like publicly available documents.
[33:15.690 --> 33:18.170]  It was the government's mistake to put private stuff in there.
[33:18.330 --> 33:23.470]  And then they're treating this kid like he went on purpose to go get confidential government stuff and he didn't.
[33:23.690 --> 33:27.550]  This whole, like, let's increment the number and see other records things.
[33:27.990 --> 33:31.830]  There was a case in this country talking of dumbasses Andrew Arrenheimer known as Weave.
[33:32.410 --> 33:39.270]  That's what he was convicted and went to jail for doing basically the same thing to, I think it was Apple and their cloud services.
[33:39.770 --> 33:45.370]  And, you know, finding that huge hole in their security and rather than being rewarded for it, he was punished for it.
[33:45.930 --> 33:47.690]  He has a lot to answer for, but not that.
[33:47.970 --> 33:50.630]  So, like, this is another case.
[33:50.850 --> 33:51.910]  This is a much better case.
[33:51.950 --> 33:53.490]  Yeah, this is a much better case.
[33:54.230 --> 33:58.270]  But it's also, like, yeah, Canada, we thought you were better than this.
[33:58.710 --> 34:00.350]  Well, there's dumbasses everywhere.
[34:00.510 --> 34:02.190]  And even our friend's advice.
[34:02.370 --> 34:02.590]  Wow.
[34:02.970 --> 34:03.710]  Check this out.
[34:03.770 --> 34:07.070]  A former hacker shares the most twisted things he did.
[34:07.290 --> 34:08.770]  This guy here, former hacker.
[34:10.290 --> 34:18.190]  It doesn't really look like, I mean, hackers look all different ways, but this guy, he kind of looks, kind of looks like he knows where the bodies are.
[34:18.430 --> 34:22.390]  It's just got this, this look in his face that, that scares me.
[34:22.870 --> 34:26.350]  He's, he's one of hacking history's most notorious cyber criminals.
[34:27.470 --> 34:33.950]  Behind the anonymity of his pseudonym, which is, I'll try to read this right, Golem Fun.
[34:34.510 --> 34:35.990]  His real name is Brett Johnson.
[34:35.990 --> 34:43.150]  He created an online network called Shadow Crew, a central hub for high-level hackers to network and the precursor to today's dark web.
[34:43.470 --> 34:48.030]  It operated between 2002 and 2004 and had at its peak 4,000 members.
[34:48.410 --> 34:51.370]  Okay, lots of things to correct in that sentence right there.
[34:51.690 --> 34:53.470]  You know, hackers don't have members.
[34:53.850 --> 34:54.750]  Hackers are individuals.
[34:55.050 --> 34:59.030]  Yeah, you can form a group, but you know, it doesn't necessarily mean you're a group of hackers.
[34:59.610 --> 35:02.190]  And every time they use the word hacking here, it's wrong.
[35:02.350 --> 35:03.810]  They're using it in the wrong way.
[35:04.270 --> 35:09.210]  Now, toward the end of his hacking days, Johnson was making more than $500,000 per month.
[35:09.210 --> 35:18.050]  Okay, I can tell you that the people out there who are hacking are not making anything by playing around with computers, phones, technology.
[35:18.510 --> 35:20.050]  They're simply doing that.
[35:20.270 --> 35:22.290]  What this guy was doing was committing crimes.
[35:22.410 --> 35:24.370]  That's how he was making the $500,000 a month.
[35:24.610 --> 35:25.510]  Not by hacking.
[35:25.790 --> 35:32.610]  Yeah, your ability or your hacking prowess is not necessarily measured in funds accumulated.
[35:33.630 --> 35:36.090]  At one point, he sat on America's most wanted list.
[35:36.110 --> 35:41.470]  And even after his arrest, when he agreed to work as a Secret Service informant, his cybercrime continued.
[35:41.870 --> 35:46.890]  Okay, at least you used a dumb word, but at least you used a word that defines it better.
[35:47.130 --> 35:47.530]  Cybercrime.
[35:47.710 --> 35:48.270]  He's cybercriminal.
[35:48.430 --> 35:49.090]  That's what he was.
[35:49.250 --> 35:50.450]  Yeah, he committed crimes online.
[35:50.630 --> 35:54.290]  And the Secret Service was using him even while he was doing that.
[35:54.370 --> 35:55.410]  That's not unusual either.
[35:56.170 --> 36:06.530]  All right, finally, after being captured again and sentenced in 2007 to seven years, six months in federal prison, Johnson chose to dedicate his life to protecting companies against the crimes he once lived for.
[36:07.330 --> 36:14.310]  And Vice spoke to the reformed hacker about his past, his present, and how cybercrime has changed since his exit.
[36:14.370 --> 36:19.810]  I just want to read a few snippets of this because I'm really kind of impressed by how much they missed the mark on this.
[36:19.930 --> 36:20.570]  I usually get it.
[36:21.210 --> 36:27.130]  Cybercrime was a natural progression for me because my mother and almost everyone on her side of the family was involved in crime.
[36:27.150 --> 36:29.270]  I committed my first offense at 10 years old.
[36:29.770 --> 36:32.050]  My mom was a very negligent and abusive parent.
[36:32.170 --> 36:34.090]  She used to leave me and my sister alone for days at a time.
[36:34.110 --> 36:36.750]  So my sister and I started shoplifting food so we could eat.
[36:37.090 --> 36:38.890]  That grew into stealing clothes and more.
[36:38.990 --> 36:40.970]  And when my mom found out, she joined us.
[36:41.090 --> 36:43.590]  Then she got her mother, my grandmother, to join us.
[36:43.590 --> 36:45.930]  Okay, you know, this is not your typical hacker story here.
[36:46.210 --> 36:50.330]  This is deeply troubled people, but this has got nothing to do with hacking.
[36:51.190 --> 36:54.830]  As I got older, I became more involved in the types of crime my family committed.
[36:55.190 --> 37:02.910]  Insurance fraud, burning homes and cars, faking accidents, stealing, became a natural extension of all that.
[37:03.370 --> 37:04.170]  Okay, fair enough.
[37:04.330 --> 37:09.270]  You could delve into technology if you're a master criminal and all sorts of other things.
[37:09.310 --> 37:10.330]  No reason why you can't.
[37:10.590 --> 37:13.410]  Just where does where does whole definition of being a hacker come in?
[37:13.450 --> 37:14.750]  That's what I'm confused about.
[37:15.130 --> 37:16.290]  Here's a question they asked him.
[37:16.390 --> 37:21.830]  What was the weirdest or most ethically dubious thing you did as a hacker or that you witnessed?
[37:22.090 --> 37:23.030]  As a hacker?
[37:24.070 --> 37:25.330]  How about as a criminal?
[37:25.610 --> 37:26.710]  That's what we're talking about here.
[37:26.710 --> 37:33.890]  I see nothing involving hacking in this entire story other than just using technology to commit more crimes.
[37:35.050 --> 37:37.770]  Anyway, the answer was there are so many instances.
[37:37.950 --> 37:42.790]  I once stole several thousand dollars worth of coins from a family trying to sell them to put a new roof on their home.
[37:43.270 --> 37:44.090]  My God.
[37:44.570 --> 37:49.390]  Another time I went I sent a counterfeit cashier's check to a victim and he ended up being arrested for it.
[37:50.150 --> 37:52.670]  Wow, I lied to family, friends, everyone I knew.
[37:52.730 --> 37:54.110]  I was a truly despicable person.
[37:54.250 --> 37:55.810]  See, this guy gets it.
[37:55.810 --> 37:56.450]  He...
[37:56.450 --> 37:58.010]  Vice doesn't get it but he gets it.
[37:58.070 --> 37:59.130]  He knows he's despicable.
[37:59.350 --> 37:59.570]  Okay.
[38:00.310 --> 38:04.750]  One of my Ukrainian associates had someone who owed him money kidnapped and tortured.
[38:05.070 --> 38:12.710]  These are not the kinds of things that hackers do but when you define hackers as cyber terrorists you might believe that.
[38:12.830 --> 38:16.370]  When you read stories like this you might believe that is what the hacker world is all about.
[38:16.670 --> 38:17.690]  It is not.
[38:17.830 --> 38:19.090]  It is so far away from this.
[38:19.430 --> 38:20.870]  Now, here's another stupid question.
[38:20.950 --> 38:22.590]  Did you earn a lot from cyber crime?
[38:22.770 --> 38:24.950]  How do today's hackers make their money generally?
[38:26.290 --> 38:26.770]  Okay.
[38:27.230 --> 38:28.510]  I didn't earn anything.
[38:28.710 --> 38:29.350]  I stole money.
[38:29.490 --> 38:30.270]  This guy gets it.
[38:30.450 --> 38:31.810]  He's correcting the reporter.
[38:31.910 --> 38:32.690]  I didn't earn anything.
[38:32.830 --> 38:33.710]  I stole money.
[38:33.930 --> 38:35.010]  It wasn't earning.
[38:35.350 --> 38:37.130]  Starting out there was almost no money coming in.
[38:37.210 --> 38:39.070]  I constantly hustled to pay the bills.
[38:39.810 --> 38:42.270]  Most hackers and cyber crooks don't make a lot.
[38:42.430 --> 38:44.610]  Most hackers don't make anything from hacking.
[38:45.290 --> 38:48.770]  They're often running around trying to learn and never become an expert criminal.
[38:49.330 --> 38:54.830]  You take the word criminal off that sentence and that's kind of you know that's a true statement as well.
[38:55.050 --> 39:01.010]  The crime is just one direction this person chose to go in and apparently Vice believes that that's what hackers do.
[39:01.270 --> 39:02.010]  It's really sad.
[39:02.550 --> 39:03.610]  You were convicted by the U.S.
[39:03.730 --> 39:05.890]  government and was once on the U.S.
[39:05.890 --> 39:08.270]  most wanted list yet you continued to engage in hacking.
[39:08.470 --> 39:11.410]  What drove you to continue and did you ever worry about being caught?
[39:11.770 --> 39:15.570]  The answer was the reason I continued to engage in hacking and breaking the law is complicated.
[39:16.010 --> 39:16.790]  First I was desperate.
[39:16.970 --> 39:18.630]  I'd been arrested and lost everything I'd stolen.
[39:19.810 --> 39:21.330]  That really sucks when that happens.
[39:21.450 --> 39:21.670]  I know.
[39:21.850 --> 39:24.290]  The only thing I had left was my stripper girlfriend.
[39:25.570 --> 39:26.690]  Yeah, objectify much?
[39:26.910 --> 39:27.150]  Wow.
[39:27.370 --> 39:31.070]  Okay, so I was so screwed up in the head I would have done anything to keep her.
[39:31.310 --> 39:33.450]  For me that meant stealing more money.
[39:34.710 --> 39:37.530]  Yeah, and then there was a fact that Secret Service had hired me.
[39:37.650 --> 39:43.710]  That gave quite the ego boost and then breaking the law from within the Secret Service offices not many people able to do that.
[39:44.010 --> 39:45.010]  Another ego boost.
[39:46.870 --> 39:49.790]  And it just basically continues like this.
[39:52.290 --> 39:55.790]  How do you compare the caliber of cyber criminals out there with your peers?
[39:56.290 --> 39:57.890]  Criminals back then were much more adept.
[39:57.990 --> 40:00.670]  See, here we have a level of criminality.
[40:00.810 --> 40:08.850]  The criminals of today aren't as good as the criminals of of yesterday when I was doing this stuff because we were figuring out many of these crimes as we went.
[40:08.950 --> 40:11.470]  We understood the dynamics of those crimes inside and out.
[40:11.590 --> 40:12.770]  We knew every nuance.
[40:13.350 --> 40:17.290]  Most of today's cyber criminals have no understanding of the dynamics of the crimes they commit.
[40:17.630 --> 40:21.370]  You see, they just basically insert crime where hacking used to be.
[40:21.490 --> 40:26.150]  We could say hackers of the old days used to really get involved with the technology with the machine.
[40:26.270 --> 40:26.970]  It was hands-on.
[40:27.290 --> 40:30.730]  And today they're running apps and exploits and things like that.
[40:30.730 --> 40:34.350]  But here they've successfully just inserted crime into the whole thing.
[40:34.470 --> 40:36.910]  So it's nothing except committing crimes.
[40:37.030 --> 40:48.830]  And it's really, really sad to see that stereotype perpetuated, especially, especially in an outlet that's supposedly as enlightened as Vice.
[40:49.010 --> 40:50.910]  But I guess you can never be too surprised.
[40:52.330 --> 40:52.730]  Yeah.
[40:53.250 --> 40:55.090]  No, it's kind of ridiculous.
[40:55.290 --> 40:57.110]  And I think that some of their...
[40:57.110 --> 40:58.870]  I don't know, is this Motherboard or...
[40:58.870 --> 41:01.430]  Yeah, they gotta figure out what their goal is.
[41:01.610 --> 41:02.690]  Yeah, this is vice.com.
[41:02.830 --> 41:05.250]  So it was probably on a variety of their platforms.
[41:05.510 --> 41:11.570]  And yeah, hopefully they can find some focus, refocus some of their stuff.
[41:12.530 --> 41:14.830]  Because they've done some decent reporting.
[41:15.050 --> 41:17.230]  I know Motherboard, we've cited a lot.
[41:17.330 --> 41:19.910]  That's why I'm coming down so hard on them because they do such great reporting.
[41:20.090 --> 41:23.570]  To have crap like this being spewed about as fact is just...
[41:23.570 --> 41:24.510]  It really rankles me.
[41:24.690 --> 41:30.950]  Yeah, it's like a thought piece or something, you know, like a retrospective for this guy.
[41:31.170 --> 41:34.030]  And yeah, and muddying, of course.
[41:34.270 --> 41:42.430]  There are so many good hackers out there that should have that space that are doing cool things that aren't making anything from what they're doing, but yet they continue trying.
[41:42.690 --> 41:45.670]  You know, a piece on Eric Lundgren, for instance, that would be worthy.
[41:45.830 --> 41:47.690]  Or a piece on the kid in Nova Scotia.
[41:47.790 --> 41:50.390]  All kinds of people worthy of more space than this.
[41:50.690 --> 41:57.990]  I would have to say that this has to be like a slip or something that somebody didn't really look at this and say, okay, hold on a second.
[41:58.230 --> 42:00.410]  This is way sensationalized.
[42:00.510 --> 42:20.290]  This is off the mark because, yeah, I mean, just these like leading questions about profitability and, you know, again, perpetuate the sort of cyber criminal or cyber celebrity type angle, you know, to figure out, you know, what the sort of sexy angle for,
[42:20.310 --> 42:23.090]  you know, the most readers or something like that.
[42:23.190 --> 42:25.330]  I don't really blame them for trying to do that.
[42:25.450 --> 42:39.510]  I blame them for helping to create a stereotype about hackers that turns them into criminals and just evil people, which, you know, having been around for so many years, I think we can say that is just not the case.
[42:39.690 --> 42:48.690]  There are evil people, yes, and there are evil people who know how to use technology, but to castigate the entire group of people like they are doing here is just so wrong.
[42:48.790 --> 42:50.970]  And basically, what we're saying is it's been done before.
[42:51.170 --> 42:52.710]  You know, this is more of the same.
[42:52.850 --> 42:54.210]  We do not need this coverage.
[42:54.330 --> 42:58.990]  There's other parts of the hacking community that ought to be celebrated and deserve this.
[42:59.150 --> 43:00.650]  Have we learned nothing from Geraldo?
[43:00.790 --> 43:02.050]  You know, back in the old days.
[43:02.170 --> 43:02.730]  Oh my God.
[43:04.310 --> 43:15.490]  This could have almost been a good story if they'd, you know, just instead of using the word hacker, they're saying we're interviewing a criminal about doing crimes and, you know, tell us what doing crimes as a criminal was like.
[43:15.670 --> 43:18.610]  You know, next time you've got a story like this, run it by us.
[43:18.790 --> 43:19.430]  We'll help you out.
[43:19.550 --> 43:20.490]  No, no charge.
[43:20.770 --> 43:27.670]  Just we'll get it right so that, you know, you don't say these things that are just so completely inaccurate and harmful to an entire community of people.
[43:28.090 --> 43:29.110]  We will help.
[43:29.210 --> 43:29.990]  You know how to get a hold of us.
[43:30.030 --> 43:33.250]  And also, if you don't, OTH at 2600.com.
[43:33.390 --> 43:37.130]  But to give an example, we see this every day.
[43:37.690 --> 43:39.630]  You've heard of Joy Reid, MSNBC.
[43:40.270 --> 43:50.550]  She basically is sticking to her claim that a hacker broke into her defunct blog and manipulated old posts to read as outrageously homophobic.
[43:51.070 --> 43:54.030]  And MSNBC is throwing their support behind her.
[43:54.110 --> 43:55.870]  Now, this is really bizarre.
[43:56.130 --> 43:58.270]  It's really a strange story.
[43:58.270 --> 44:01.690]  So, I'll try and, I'll try and not talk too fast.
[44:02.530 --> 44:13.650]  It began back in December when she apologized for a set of what she called tone-deaf posts on her former blog, The Reid Report, which she maintained from 2007 to 2011.
[44:14.430 --> 44:31.330]  While she was working as a morning radio radio host and political columnist for Miami Herald, the offending post accused former Republican Florida Governor Charlie Crist of being in the closet and often referred to him with the derogatory nickname Miss Charlie.
[44:31.890 --> 44:40.530]  In a statement, she took responsibility for the post, said that her views had evolved, apologized to the LGBT community, and promised to do better.
[44:40.790 --> 44:47.530]  At no time have I intentionally sought to demean or harm the LGBT community, which includes people whom I deeply love.
[44:47.790 --> 44:50.950]  My goal and my ham-handed way was to call out potential hypocrisy.
[44:52.170 --> 44:52.790]  All right.
[44:52.910 --> 44:53.630]  Well, you know what?
[44:53.870 --> 44:55.350]  I can accept an apology.
[44:55.690 --> 44:56.690]  Many people can.
[44:58.390 --> 45:01.090]  Unfortunately, it didn't end there.
[45:02.330 --> 45:07.770]  Old posts were unearthed through the Wayback Machine on archive.org.
[45:08.470 --> 45:10.170]  We've talked about that many, many times.
[45:10.470 --> 45:17.630]  And instead of apologizing for these old posts, like she did back in December, she claimed she was the victim of a hack.
[45:17.770 --> 45:18.970]  She said a hacker did it.
[45:19.070 --> 45:21.110]  And she denied authoring the posts.
[45:21.470 --> 45:34.510]  In December, I learned that an unknown external party accessed and manipulated material from my now defunct blog to include offensive and hateful references that are fabricated and run counter to my personal beliefs and ideology.
[45:35.270 --> 45:41.910]  Well, first of all, you know, back then, it didn't run counter to your personal beliefs and ideology.
[45:42.530 --> 45:42.970]  Okay?
[45:43.050 --> 45:44.190]  You already admitted that yourself.
[45:44.190 --> 45:48.290]  So, to say that this is a shock that it's there, maybe it's not that much of a shock.
[45:48.690 --> 45:50.050]  Maybe it's just something else.
[45:50.130 --> 45:51.050]  Maybe you lost track of it.
[45:51.050 --> 45:57.450]  But, okay, so this is what she is claiming, that somebody got into her blog.
[45:58.270 --> 46:01.610]  Actually, I'm going to read an explanation that was posted online.
[46:02.710 --> 46:06.330]  Multiple copies geographically, administratively dispersed throughout the globe.
[46:06.490 --> 46:21.210]  What someone would have had to have done would be to have hacked multiple web archives and altered their contents or have hacked the original site 12 years ago for those pages to have been hosted at all those different web archives.
[46:21.450 --> 46:24.670]  In other words, archive.org grabbed it from different sources.
[46:24.770 --> 46:28.130]  It was quote-unquote hacked on all those different sources.
[46:28.210 --> 46:45.370]  The only way that could have happened would be if somebody meticulously went to all those sources and was able to modify them all exactly the same way or go back 12 years and have this done without anybody ever saying anything about it up until now.
[46:46.170 --> 46:50.310]  The reason it was discovered now is because somebody was looking on archive.org and found it.
[46:51.190 --> 46:52.910]  And clearly that was an archive.
[46:53.190 --> 46:53.910]  That is what they do.
[46:54.070 --> 47:01.910]  No evidence of anything being hacked at archive.org and they have ways of finding out these things.
[47:02.190 --> 47:11.390]  And this is really incredible because archive.org it's basically since the web went mainstream they've been doing their thing and it's an archive.
[47:11.390 --> 47:11.950]  It's a mirror.
[47:12.390 --> 47:16.870]  Its integrity has not as to my knowledge been called into question on this level.
[47:16.870 --> 47:40.990]  But to blame this on corruption in the archive itself rather than her original site that's just you know on one hand it's really boneheaded on the other hand it's kind of terrifying because once that is called into question I mean the archive is depended on for so many things to be an impartial library basically of the internet's past.
[47:40.990 --> 48:05.210]  and so the internet archive responded on their own blog on archive.org you know in so many words saying you know we found no evidence of anyone manipulating anything in the archive you can read the full blog post on archive.org but it's really telling that and we've seen this so many times too where somebody gets caught out with something they said or something they you know did online and they
[48:05.210 --> 48:27.850]  try and blame it on a hack you know somebody posts a picture they shouldn't and then they say sorry I was hacked somebody you know and and it's it's just the go-to thing to blame when it's really just I made a bad decision it's an awful convenient explanation for her story and you see how it just keeps repeating when in doubt blame a hacker everybody will believe that now this is what the senior
[48:27.850 --> 48:44.370]  technology reporter over at BuzzFeed said the Wayback Machine captured these posts at or near the time they were posted over 10 years ago So, for this account that they're putting forth to make sense, someone would have had to have accessed Reed's blog with dark web credentials and then travel back in time.
[48:45.810 --> 48:51.430]  And, you know, if this is true, they should identify which posts they allege are fabricated and which are real.
[48:51.810 --> 48:54.910]  Remember, she's already acknowledged some of the posts are real and apologized for them.
[48:55.350 --> 49:03.450]  You know, it's a lot easier to apologize for doing something than to simply make up a story and try and ride on that.
[49:03.670 --> 49:04.910]  Because he will be found out.
[49:04.910 --> 49:08.050]  Here's another example, because we could go on for hours about this.
[49:08.570 --> 49:10.430]  That racist Facebook post.
[49:10.550 --> 49:11.550]  I was hacked while asleep.
[49:11.690 --> 49:18.170]  That's what a local politician accused of posting a racist slur to his Facebook page and then destroying his computer.
[49:19.190 --> 49:23.550]  He was slapped with a suspension by his council colleagues.
[49:23.570 --> 49:25.030]  I believe this was in Canada.
[49:25.570 --> 49:30.390]  He claimed his Facebook account was hacked and that someone else wrote the message.
[49:30.390 --> 49:39.570]  Unfortunately, Counselor Cardi was his name, has a history of similar social media posts, which makes his hacking excuse rather unbelievable.
[49:40.990 --> 49:46.990]  Cardi said, I believe that the offending Facebook posts were created late in the evening of Tuesday, August 29th, 2017.
[49:46.990 --> 49:48.970]  Likely a hacker while I was asleep.
[49:49.630 --> 49:54.070]  I am not sure when my account was hacked, but the post was created by an unidentified person or hacker.
[49:54.250 --> 50:00.930]  I have no information with respect to the origin of this post, how it occurred, or who caused the offending messages to be posted to my Facebook account.
[50:02.050 --> 50:09.650]  Upon learning about the offending messages, I immediately wrote on Facebook that they were not from me, but from some unidentified person, and that my Facebook account was hacked.
[50:09.730 --> 50:13.750]  I also posted that I had been in contact with Facebook about security measures, blah, blah, blah.
[50:13.870 --> 50:14.810]  Same thing over and over again.
[50:15.010 --> 50:18.390]  But, you know, the smoking gun is... they have a history of doing this kind of thing.
[50:19.230 --> 50:22.290]  That's, you know, if you don't have a history, maybe somebody will believe you.
[50:22.750 --> 50:25.850]  But, you know, it's too easy an excuse.
[50:25.850 --> 50:26.510]  Exactly.
[50:26.830 --> 50:32.910]  And there are so many people with things that they said or did in the past that were, in retrospect, really stupid, really ignorant, maybe bigoted.
[50:33.210 --> 50:38.250]  And people get caught and apologize and evolve and take their lumps and move on.
[50:38.570 --> 50:40.390]  And, you know, things go from there.
[50:40.590 --> 50:44.670]  But to try and deflect it, it's just... it's a cheesy move.
[50:45.110 --> 50:46.650]  Well, I have a ton more stories.
[50:46.650 --> 50:50.210]  I can go on for three hours with this, but I did promise to open up the phone line.
[50:50.290 --> 50:50.890]  So let's do that.
[50:51.510 --> 51:02.010]  But 347-335-0818, if you have any comments on things we've said or maybe something you'd like to share with us, we'd certainly like to hear from you.
[51:02.090 --> 51:06.590]  But, wow, there's just so much to talk about here just on this one subject.
[51:06.590 --> 51:09.390]  But there are many, many other subjects going on as well.
[51:09.490 --> 51:10.370]  But let's take a phone call.
[51:10.550 --> 51:11.070]  Good evening.
[51:11.190 --> 51:11.890]  You're on Off the Hook.
[51:11.930 --> 51:12.230]  Go ahead.
[51:12.750 --> 51:14.130]  Yeah, it's Tom from the Bronx.
[51:14.150 --> 51:14.490]  Hi, Tom.
[51:14.490 --> 51:21.670]  I'd like to say that that Canadian hacker is searching for the mysterious hacker.
[51:22.430 --> 51:22.970]  Okay.
[51:23.210 --> 51:23.530]  All right.
[51:23.990 --> 51:24.830]  Fair enough.
[51:25.530 --> 51:29.030]  There's... it's really... it's really wild.
[51:29.330 --> 51:42.050]  You know, people know that if they put something on the computer that eventually they'll come out somewhere and they still go into this situation, it's like stepping in quicksand.
[51:42.790 --> 51:44.890]  It is a bit like that.
[51:45.510 --> 51:47.490]  Yeah, obviously it is.
[51:48.410 --> 51:50.430]  People just don't learn, you know?
[51:50.670 --> 52:02.070]  Yeah, they kind of want to run with the sensational parts of the thing, thinking that will make sense because, well, anything sensational with computers makes sense.
[52:02.330 --> 52:04.650]  But it can really backfire.
[52:05.370 --> 52:05.930]  Absolutely.
[52:06.330 --> 52:11.830]  My sense is that the hacker was, you know, Jack Daniels or somebody, you know, late night.
[52:11.830 --> 52:12.550]  Oh, yeah.
[52:12.690 --> 52:12.930]  Okay.
[52:13.070 --> 52:13.650]  Maybe, maybe.
[52:13.830 --> 52:18.770]  The notorious Jim Beam hacking and so on.
[52:18.930 --> 52:26.950]  How about just the notorious bad judgment, you know, and racist thoughts that some people just seem to get rid of.
[52:27.030 --> 52:27.250]  Yeah.
[52:27.390 --> 52:33.850]  They're a little too, how should I say, comfortable when they're up late posting and they forget themselves.
[52:34.270 --> 52:37.710]  Well, they're comfortable because they feel they can just get away with things by blaming somebody else.
[52:37.710 --> 52:41.050]  And the thing is, with technology, you can also figure things out.
[52:41.050 --> 52:43.890]  And with people who know technology, we will figure it out.
[52:45.210 --> 52:48.070]  Again, the phone number, 347-335-0818.
[52:48.150 --> 52:54.790]  One request, if you're a frequent caller, wait a little bit until we say, hey, nobody's calling.
[52:54.990 --> 52:56.390]  Because I'd like to hear from some new people.
[52:56.490 --> 53:03.090]  If you haven't called in, say, a month, give us a call, 347-335-0818.
[53:03.090 --> 53:09.610]  And I'll wait for the person calling now to realize that they called last week and hang up and say, I'll give my time to somebody else.
[53:09.830 --> 53:14.950]  And if it continues ringing after a few seconds, I will pick it up, assuming that they are somebody who has not called up.
[53:15.050 --> 53:18.330]  Again, the phone number, 347-335-0818.
[53:18.570 --> 53:22.510]  We will be having a phone system with more than one line soon, thanks to your donations.
[53:22.830 --> 53:24.530]  And again, give to WBAI.org.
[53:24.630 --> 53:25.490]  Become a BAI buddy.
[53:25.930 --> 53:27.050]  And let's see who's on the phone.
[53:27.130 --> 53:27.430]  Good evening.
[53:27.530 --> 53:28.210]  You're on Off the Hook.
[53:28.930 --> 53:29.690]  Yeah, how you doing?
[53:29.770 --> 53:30.470]  How's everything, guys?
[53:31.030 --> 53:31.750]  Everything is good.
[53:31.790 --> 53:32.050]  How are you?
[53:32.050 --> 53:33.090]  All right.
[53:33.430 --> 53:36.430]  I want to speak about that Eric Lundgren situation.
[53:36.430 --> 53:36.850]  Yes, go ahead.
[53:38.130 --> 53:40.750]  He was wondering how both of them got indicted.
[53:41.170 --> 53:48.150]  Apparently, the other conspiratorial was doing something crooked and throwing Eric in.
[53:50.250 --> 53:57.250]  If he was trying to be all right, because the notice of him to get indicted also, he had to get caught, and the feds had to throw him in.
[53:57.730 --> 54:02.030]  So the guy that was trying to get him to sell the discs for $3,800?
[54:02.050 --> 54:08.990]  $4,000 or $4,000 or $4,000 or whatever, you think he may have been implicated in something, and then that kind of brought him in as a co-conspirator somehow?
[54:08.990 --> 54:10.170]  Right, exactly.
[54:10.510 --> 54:10.810]  Exactly.
[54:11.130 --> 54:15.790]  And threw Eric in without him knowing, because they both wouldn't have got indicted.
[54:16.570 --> 54:26.150]  If Eric was, unless they were partners, apparently not partners, so they both got indicted, because he threw Eric in for a lesser charge, I'm assuming.
[54:26.550 --> 54:29.630]  Yeah, but he's the one going to prison for 15 months.
[54:29.630 --> 54:32.030]  This other guy didn't get anything like that.
[54:32.290 --> 54:33.070]  That's what I'm saying.
[54:33.230 --> 54:36.850]  Because the other guy is the one that got... he's a school pitcher.
[54:37.310 --> 54:38.270]  The other guy is a school pitcher.
[54:38.690 --> 54:42.850]  He'll sell somebody else to get a lesser charge for himself.
[54:43.310 --> 54:43.770]  You understand?
[54:44.030 --> 54:46.030]  Yeah, no, I understand the concept, believe me.
[54:46.850 --> 54:48.950]  But it's all the more shameful then.
[54:49.310 --> 54:50.150]  Right, right.
[54:50.250 --> 54:55.510]  And like you said, everything that you're saying is absolutely right, but all you're talking about is selling paper.
[54:55.510 --> 54:58.790]  They're making money and selling paper.
[54:59.250 --> 54:59.870]  So that...
[54:59.870 --> 55:02.110]  It is what they always... like you said, it doesn't make sense.
[55:02.590 --> 55:04.670]  There is no... there's no...
[55:06.590 --> 55:07.290]  What's the other guy?
[55:07.350 --> 55:08.430]  What was the other guy that...
[55:09.150 --> 55:11.350]  He said he was a criminal, and he was...
[55:11.350 --> 55:13.490]  He started off, his family was criminals.
[55:13.870 --> 55:15.750]  Yeah, yeah, the guy featured in Vice.
[55:16.650 --> 55:17.370]  Right, but...
[55:17.370 --> 55:20.930]  Like you said, they only do it to sell paper, to sell...
[55:20.930 --> 55:21.990]  To get you interested.
[55:22.230 --> 55:22.310]  Yeah.
[55:22.310 --> 55:25.510]  Because it had nothing to do about, you know, cyber.
[55:25.730 --> 55:26.610]  It had nothing to do with cyber.
[55:27.270 --> 55:27.870]  You know him?
[55:27.870 --> 55:28.330]  That's true.
[55:29.170 --> 55:29.810]  You know what I mean?
[55:30.130 --> 55:31.330]  Well, it had nothing to do with hacking.
[55:31.450 --> 55:32.670]  It did something to do with technology.
[55:32.850 --> 55:34.350]  But your point is taken.
[55:34.510 --> 55:34.790]  Thank you.
[55:35.010 --> 55:38.390]  Thank you for calling, and we're going to try and see if we can squeeze one more in.
[55:38.510 --> 55:39.450]  Those are some good observations.
[55:39.610 --> 55:40.130]  Very good observations.
[55:40.870 --> 55:41.190]  Absolutely.
[55:41.690 --> 55:47.170]  While we're waiting for another call, I want to remind folks, if you're thinking of submitting a Hope Talk, do it now.
[55:47.250 --> 55:48.030]  Oh, yeah, yeah.
[55:48.350 --> 55:49.110]  Go to hope.net.
[55:49.210 --> 55:52.150]  All the info is there on how to put your submission together.
[55:52.310 --> 55:54.210]  Because it's coming down to the line.
[55:54.310 --> 55:56.710]  We've been remiss in reminding people to do that.
[55:56.850 --> 55:58.310]  And we do have openings still.
[55:59.230 --> 56:00.470]  Go to hope.net.
[56:00.470 --> 56:01.770]  Look at the speaker section.
[56:02.050 --> 56:03.310]  It'll give you all the info you need.
[56:03.430 --> 56:04.590]  Same thing for workshops.
[56:04.890 --> 56:12.410]  And also, if you haven't gotten your tickets yet, keep in mind the month of April, 10% of your ticket sale goes to the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[56:12.410 --> 56:15.730]  So if you want to help them out, take care of that before the 30th.
[56:15.830 --> 56:16.970]  We have a caller on the line.
[56:17.030 --> 56:17.310]  Good evening.
[56:17.450 --> 56:17.990]  You're on Off the Hook.
[56:17.990 --> 56:21.610]  Okay, quick comment on Weave and a more important question.
[56:21.830 --> 56:23.170]  Quick comment on Weave.
[56:23.270 --> 56:28.170]  Weave scraped the AT&T site and then bragged about it on Gorka.
[56:28.290 --> 56:29.470]  Got convicted.
[56:29.770 --> 56:34.210]  The conviction was overturned because they tried him in the wrong jurisdiction.
[56:35.770 --> 56:37.090]  That's why he's out.
[56:37.270 --> 56:41.450]  But after that, he became a neo-Nazi white supremacist.
[56:41.670 --> 56:44.850]  So he's out there and he's dangerous another way.
[56:44.990 --> 56:46.010]  Forget about the hacking.
[56:46.010 --> 56:47.430]  The more important...
[56:47.430 --> 56:50.370]  That's why I prefer the Nova Scotia kit as a good example of this.
[56:50.970 --> 56:51.910]  Oh, is that it?
[56:52.030 --> 56:52.290]  Okay.
[56:52.470 --> 56:54.210]  I just think he's a better person.
[56:54.290 --> 56:54.450]  Yes.
[56:55.290 --> 56:55.710]  Okay.
[56:55.990 --> 56:56.350]  All right.
[56:56.350 --> 57:09.430]  Then the question is, can any wireless keyboard work on Amazon Fire Stick or do I have to get a wireless keypad from Amazon themselves?
[57:09.450 --> 57:10.890]  Anybody know that?
[57:11.470 --> 57:15.250]  There's a good possibility that it's compatible with a variety of manufacturers.
[57:15.570 --> 57:20.790]  But if you dig a little bit, do a couple searches, you'll probably get a better, more definitive answer.
[57:21.030 --> 57:30.430]  But I would find it highly annoying and that they would turn a lot of people away if they were preventing them from using any sort of keyboard.
[57:30.730 --> 57:31.670]  We are out of time.
[57:31.810 --> 57:32.310]  I'm sorry.
[57:32.470 --> 57:33.470]  I wish we could talk longer.
[57:33.590 --> 57:34.670]  We have so much we didn't get to.
[57:34.970 --> 57:36.450]  But we'll be back again next week.
[57:36.670 --> 57:39.550]  And assuming nothing happens between now and then, we'll be able to get to all this stuff.
[57:39.950 --> 57:41.290]  Otherwise, we'll talk about something new.
[57:41.830 --> 57:43.250]  Until then, this is Manuel for Off the Hook.
[57:43.350 --> 57:45.350]  Write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[57:45.470 --> 57:45.970]  See you next time.
[57:46.090 --> 57:46.270]  Good night.
[57:51.590 --> 57:52.250]  We'll see you next time.
[57:52.250 --> 57:53.390]  We'll see you next time.
[57:54.070 --> 58:03.510]  You can be cool, oh, you can cry.
[58:03.790 --> 58:07.190]  Do it wrong, not at all, or do it right.
[58:09.230 --> 58:48.990]  No one owes you, no one's to blame Sit for bad genes or DNA Ask your conscience the why and how Do it then, do it when, but do it now What's up, sweet cakes Who's here Who's here Any way Any way All the girls Are easy What you gonna do, little buckaroo Hey,
[58:49.190 --> 58:56.310]  you better ask that Yeah, you gotta do Happy Through his eyes Oh, my
[59:06.150 --> 59:41.390]  No, we all can't be Super fly G-Q-P-H-D-F-B-I You can pretend You can try Move ahead Lay down dead Or sleep on by When the truth seems so far away Buddha loves you And Jesus said You need answers for your dismay.
[59:41.850 --> 59:45.050]  Ask yourself, ask your mom, ask DNA.
[59:46.550 --> 59:50.990]  What's up, sweet cakes?
[59:51.670 --> 59:55.430]  Who's here anyway?
[59:57.150 --> 01:00:00.910]  The girls are easy.
[01:00:02.970 --> 01:00:06.030]  What you gonna do, little buckaroo?
[01:00:06.030 --> 01:00:08.070]  Hey, you better ask your nice.
[01:00:08.350 --> 01:00:10.050]  All you gotta do.
[01:00:10.330 --> 01:00:16.030]  Happy food is ask your mom, yeah.
[01:00:16.670 --> 01:00:21.330]  Just ask your mom, do-do-do.
[01:00:21.830 --> 01:00:27.050]  Just ask your mom, do-do-do, yeah.
[01:00:27.530 --> 01:00:32.970]  Ask your mom, do-do-do, yeah.
[01:00:40.270 --> 01:00:43.130]  Ask your mom, do-do-do, yeah.
[01:00:49.620 --> 01:00:52.440]  Ask your mom, euro.
[01:00:52.440 --> 01:00:53.120]  Ask your mom.