[00:00.000 --> 00:07.820]  In Rio de Janeiro, our sister, Mariela Franco, who led for LGBTQ people, who are also doing that.
[00:07.960 --> 00:09.200]  So we know all of that.
[00:09.340 --> 00:13.520]  It goes beyond this, but we know we have to organize, organize, organize.
[00:13.920 --> 00:16.540]  The movement just doesn't sit right here in this moment.
[00:16.760 --> 00:21.900]  The movement we're building, the way we change this country, is going to be sustained activism.
[00:22.200 --> 00:26.980]  And I know that you're here today, you're here tomorrow, and you're in to the end till we win.
[00:26.980 --> 00:30.880]  This is listener-sponsored, non-commercial, WBAI New York.
[00:32.800 --> 00:34.140]  Oh, indeed it is.
[00:34.300 --> 00:37.640]  And you're listening to it here on a Wednesday evening.
[00:37.760 --> 00:39.400]  It's one minute after eight o'clock.
[00:39.700 --> 00:42.500]  It's time once again for another edition of Off the Hook.
[02:20.980 --> 02:22.440]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:22.560 --> 02:23.800]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:23.890 --> 02:28.700]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:29.450 --> 02:29.940]  Hi.
[02:30.200 --> 02:30.740]  How are you doing?
[02:30.920 --> 02:31.270]  Alex.
[02:31.820 --> 02:32.560]  Good evening, everyone.
[02:32.940 --> 02:33.140]  Walter.
[02:33.600 --> 02:34.010]  Hey there.
[02:34.420 --> 02:34.760]  Rob T.
[02:34.860 --> 02:35.260]  Firefly.
[02:35.510 --> 02:36.040]  Good evening.
[02:36.320 --> 02:37.640]  And our special guest, Mitch Altman.
[02:38.070 --> 02:38.480]  Hello.
[02:38.480 --> 02:47.240]  And this is the post-Hope show, where we discuss what happened at the conference this past weekend.
[02:47.520 --> 02:50.380]  And we have a lot to talk about.
[02:50.520 --> 02:51.800]  We have a lot to talk about this week.
[02:53.120 --> 02:55.800]  It was a hard weekend, I have to say.
[02:55.800 --> 02:56.900]  It was difficult.
[02:56.900 --> 02:59.180]  We expected some issues.
[02:59.200 --> 03:05.770]  And I guess we didn't really expect the issues that happened to be as problematic.
[03:05.770 --> 03:06.960]  But they were.
[03:07.040 --> 03:09.580]  And we want to confront those head on.
[03:11.480 --> 03:14.020]  We had a very diverse schedule.
[03:14.020 --> 03:16.800]  We had a lot of people speaking.
[03:16.800 --> 03:18.060]  A lot of people attending.
[03:19.480 --> 03:23.240]  And we actually had some changes this year.
[03:23.380 --> 03:27.760]  Last time, two years ago, the major problem was overcrowding.
[03:27.920 --> 03:30.540]  And we solved that problem, I think, this year.
[03:30.540 --> 03:35.080]  Because we had extra space, and I didn't notice any real issues with crowding.
[03:35.680 --> 03:38.320]  Things seemed to move a lot smoother.
[03:38.320 --> 03:41.640]  We had an extra track on the lower level.
[03:41.820 --> 03:43.520]  We expanded the rooms upstairs.
[03:43.520 --> 03:48.680]  We were able to move people back and forth much better than we were two years ago.
[03:48.820 --> 03:51.680]  So I'm happy to say we got that right.
[03:52.600 --> 03:54.270]  There are things we did not get right.
[03:54.420 --> 03:57.210]  And that is what we need to focus on.
[03:57.380 --> 04:01.360]  And that's something that we've been discussing pretty much nonstop since the weekend.
[04:02.260 --> 04:11.800]  Mainly the issue of trolling, alt-right, harassment of various sorts, code of conduct.
[04:12.090 --> 04:17.320]  These are things that we really have to focus on fine-tuning.
[04:18.500 --> 04:22.180]  If you were on Twitter, you certainly would have heard about this.
[04:22.200 --> 04:27.880]  Because we were even trending at one point with the various problems that were taking place at the conference.
[04:28.020 --> 04:36.860]  Mainly, if I can try and describe it as best I can, intimidation tactics.
[04:37.980 --> 04:39.060]  Where people...
[04:39.420 --> 04:43.710]  And if you've been on stage, maybe this is something that you're familiar with.
[04:44.330 --> 04:50.580]  Where you're aware that you're being intimidated just by the presence of imposing figures.
[04:51.140 --> 04:56.060]  And we had a bunch of people like that at the conference.
[04:56.060 --> 04:59.920]  People who literally came in Trump attire.
[05:00.330 --> 05:02.380]  In Make America Great Hats.
[05:02.650 --> 05:03.920]  And things like that.
[05:03.920 --> 05:07.440]  And I'll tell you, you know, seeing that annoyed the hell out of me.
[05:07.560 --> 05:09.520]  And just pissed me off no end.
[05:09.680 --> 05:12.880]  Because it just felt like we were being hijacked.
[05:12.880 --> 05:13.540]  And we were.
[05:13.650 --> 05:14.460]  We were being hijacked.
[05:14.520 --> 05:15.360]  We weren't ready for this.
[05:16.680 --> 05:19.440]  We expected some kind of pushback.
[05:19.460 --> 05:21.200]  We expected some kind of harassment.
[05:22.380 --> 05:25.770]  But we didn't expect them to be that good at it.
[05:25.830 --> 05:28.320]  And they were very, very good at it.
[05:28.320 --> 05:37.260]  And what I mean by that is, these were imposing people that were able to set off other people, basically.
[05:37.600 --> 05:38.960]  On a number of occasions.
[05:39.230 --> 05:41.440]  Where, just by standing there.
[05:41.680 --> 05:42.820]  Staring somebody down.
[05:42.940 --> 05:43.440]  Being intimidating.
[05:43.880 --> 05:48.480]  Just by broadcasting what they were all about.
[05:48.480 --> 05:49.980]  Without maybe even saying a word.
[05:51.280 --> 05:52.850]  It threw us off.
[05:53.040 --> 05:54.350]  It threw us off as organizers.
[05:54.520 --> 05:55.600]  It threw us off as speakers.
[05:55.600 --> 05:57.060]  It threw us off as attendees.
[05:58.360 --> 06:01.720]  And we found ourselves ill-prepared to deal with it.
[06:03.350 --> 06:10.100]  And I think, I think we also had difficulty as a community in focusing.
[06:10.640 --> 06:18.080]  Because a number of people felt that we were welcoming, I saw some really absurd things being said.
[06:18.180 --> 06:21.060]  That we were welcoming Nazis into our conference.
[06:21.440 --> 06:25.160]  And embracing fascism and various things like that.
[06:25.160 --> 06:35.500]  Simply because we were not prepared on how to deal with someone who simply was wearing a hat and intimidating people.
[06:35.720 --> 06:38.100]  We weren't expecting that particular tactic.
[06:38.500 --> 06:43.120]  And we kind of fell down in how to deal with it, I think.
[06:44.370 --> 06:46.560]  But we are still here.
[06:46.600 --> 06:48.350]  We are still planning ahead.
[06:48.350 --> 06:51.820]  We are talking to a lot of attendees and a lot of organizers.
[06:51.820 --> 06:57.180]  And a lot of people who run other conferences and do other things here and in other countries.
[06:58.200 --> 07:00.820]  And we intend to take on this challenge.
[07:00.820 --> 07:04.000]  And we hope, we hope that the community is there with us.
[07:04.680 --> 07:10.840]  It's distressing when we're dealing with something like this to be condemned.
[07:11.100 --> 07:13.620]  Be condemned by the very people that you're with.
[07:14.060 --> 07:16.080]  And I think we do that too often.
[07:16.080 --> 07:17.340]  We do that too fast.
[07:17.820 --> 07:20.640]  And I don't remember a lot of what I said at the closing ceremonies.
[07:20.660 --> 07:21.700]  But I do remember saying one thing.
[07:21.790 --> 07:23.140]  I remember saying that we have to fight better.
[07:23.680 --> 07:27.100]  And we're not fighting good right now if we're fighting each other.
[07:27.200 --> 07:28.620]  Or if we're attacking each other.
[07:28.880 --> 07:30.940]  What happened over the weekend was unfortunate.
[07:31.380 --> 07:33.140]  It did not define the conference.
[07:33.160 --> 07:37.140]  If you were at the conference, you might not have even known it was going on.
[07:37.200 --> 07:40.440]  But for those people who did know it was going on, that is unacceptable.
[07:40.720 --> 07:41.940]  It's unacceptable to us.
[07:41.960 --> 07:43.020]  It's unacceptable to them.
[07:43.020 --> 07:49.080]  It should be unacceptable to anybody who is a party to this kind of material and content.
[07:49.700 --> 07:54.640]  And it's something that is priority number one as far as fixing.
[07:55.080 --> 07:59.720]  And, you know, it's a different world.
[07:59.940 --> 08:01.420]  It's not like it was.
[08:01.720 --> 08:09.340]  And that's very unfortunate because we can't feel the same level of comfort that we felt in the past.
[08:09.340 --> 08:13.520]  But I don't think we need to sacrifice anything that we stand for.
[08:13.660 --> 08:20.160]  I don't think we need to sacrifice our embracing of diversity and disagreement.
[08:20.160 --> 08:26.600]  In fact, I want to read you a small bit from the program that was given to everybody at the conference.
[08:27.340 --> 08:31.880]  That, you know, we really hoped would be something that we lived up to.
[08:32.080 --> 08:34.820]  And unfortunately, we didn't.
[08:35.020 --> 08:35.740]  We didn't.
[08:35.900 --> 08:38.120]  At least not to the extent that we were hoping.
[08:38.120 --> 08:43.880]  While the world outside is crazy and contentious, we look forward to seeing a different kind of spirit here this weekend.
[08:44.440 --> 08:46.440]  One that we've grown used to at previous H.O.P.
[08:46.460 --> 08:46.920]  conferences.
[08:47.560 --> 08:50.480]  Debate and controversy are healthy, and we embrace both.
[08:50.680 --> 08:55.200]  But we also believe in respect, especially for those reaching different conclusions.
[08:55.500 --> 09:00.820]  There is no better test to our beliefs than to defend them and to listen to other sides.
[09:01.180 --> 09:05.140]  There is nothing more boring than being surrounded by people who agree with everything you say.
[09:05.140 --> 09:11.880]  We live to disrupt the status quo and to challenge all that we're expected to believe, no matter who is telling us.
[09:12.060 --> 09:13.680]  We don't just tolerate differences.
[09:13.790 --> 09:15.140]  We celebrate them.
[09:15.240 --> 09:17.000]  And we hope you do as well.
[09:17.440 --> 09:21.120]  Well, you know, I still hope that is the world that we're trying to build.
[09:21.260 --> 09:23.180]  Because I'm not afraid of a fight.
[09:23.360 --> 09:30.160]  I'm not afraid of defending my beliefs and defending them in front of a hostile crowd if necessary.
[09:30.640 --> 09:35.940]  And I think if we take that away, we're taking away something that makes us strong.
[09:36.240 --> 09:38.860]  And I hope that we learn from this.
[09:38.940 --> 09:39.340]  We build.
[09:39.460 --> 09:40.200]  We work together.
[09:40.480 --> 09:41.860]  We don't turn on each other.
[09:43.500 --> 09:52.680]  And the next conference, assuming there is a next conference in 2020, will solve this problem as readily as we solved the space problem from two years ago.
[09:54.440 --> 09:59.520]  I mean, it was so disheartening to see all this going on.
[09:59.600 --> 10:02.760]  And it seemed like really there were, to me, two conferences going on.
[10:02.860 --> 10:04.640]  There was things happening on Twitter.
[10:04.640 --> 10:05.940]  And there was a ruckus on Twitter.
[10:06.020 --> 10:07.380]  And there were the speakers talking.
[10:07.640 --> 10:14.660]  And I think that the speakers and the content, Emanuel, lived up to that credo that you had just read about the conference.
[10:15.850 --> 10:25.220]  And it's like we were discussing at the conference, this felt like agent provocateurs infiltrating what was an otherwise peaceful and safe place.
[10:25.920 --> 10:28.140]  It made people very uncomfortable.
[10:28.920 --> 10:30.560]  And I've thought about this quite a bit.
[10:30.700 --> 10:39.300]  And I think to take a step back and frame the debate that I hope that we're about to have, I think we need to think about this a little bit philosophically.
[10:40.420 --> 11:03.360]  And somewhat politically, too, because the issues raised by allowing these people and these undesirables, these fascists, these make America great wearing hat owners, you know, whatever you want to call them, by allowing them in at hope, you know, we're struggling with the same issues that a free society struggles with on a daily basis,
[11:03.360 --> 11:08.640]  which is, where do the rights of one party begin and the rights of another party end?
[11:08.640 --> 11:13.200]  And I think that's a really, really difficult question to ask.
[11:13.320 --> 11:21.960]  I mean, this is a question that societies have been asking for 2,500 years, where one person holds political views that make another person uncomfortable.
[11:21.960 --> 11:28.620]  Is that a sufficient reason to deny their presence at a particular place or in a particular space?
[11:28.620 --> 11:42.220]  And I think viewpoint discrimination, in and of itself, on the basis of a political viewpoint, not something that's necessarily dangerous, is absolutely abhorrent, is something that we need to fight against.
[11:42.320 --> 11:46.960]  We've been fighting against viewpoint discrimination since the civil rights movement.
[11:46.960 --> 11:49.720]  I mean, this is, you know, and way before that.
[11:49.720 --> 11:54.680]  And as much as I disagree, and I mean violently disagree...
[11:54.680 --> 11:55.120]  No violence.
[11:55.620 --> 12:05.100]  Well, with everything for which a MAGA hat stands for, I don't believe that that is sufficient to eject somebody from a conference.
[12:05.260 --> 12:06.660]  I'll come right out and say that.
[12:06.660 --> 12:10.640]  I don't think that it is yet tantamount to a swastika.
[12:10.640 --> 12:19.200]  And I know that it makes other people uncomfortable, and I know that it is a, to some, it's a symbol of hate, and it's a symbol of intolerance.
[12:19.480 --> 12:23.340]  But it's also a political statement, and we do not know the intentions.
[12:23.500 --> 12:27.220]  We cannot divine the intentions of somebody just because they're wearing a hat.
[12:27.540 --> 12:40.060]  But if this person who harbors these politically unpopular or abhorrent views and enters the conference with the intent to harass and annoy other people, then they should not be allowed to enter the conference.
[12:40.200 --> 12:40.480]  Absolutely.
[12:40.640 --> 12:43.820]  Now, the problem is we can't divine that intention.
[12:44.020 --> 12:50.160]  Nobody leaked their emails to us with, you know, their preparations to become agent provocateurs.
[12:50.300 --> 12:54.780]  If we knew what their intentions were, then absolutely they should be banned.
[12:54.780 --> 13:00.720]  And if we could identify them by the fact that they're wearing a MAGA hat, then I'm all for rejecting them immediately.
[13:00.780 --> 13:05.720]  The problem, however, is that intentions have to be judged by actions.
[13:05.720 --> 13:10.000]  If we have undocumented intentions, we can only judge them by their actions.
[13:10.000 --> 13:21.260]  And here's where I think the real breakdown is, if I can say so, is that at what point in the conference did we have sufficient information to divine their intentions?
[13:21.260 --> 13:41.000]  And I think that information came in piecemeal, it came in different episodes, and, you know, what we saw on Twitter was different than what we were getting on the ground, and so it became a very confusing situation, and it becomes very, very difficult to judge at what point did we have sufficient information to eject them from the conference.
[13:41.000 --> 13:52.200]  And I think that's where the breakdown was, and if I may say so, I think that we got it wrong, and I think that we're not going to fall for this nonsense, for this crap, a second time again.
[13:53.200 --> 13:53.640]  Voltaire?
[13:53.640 --> 14:04.020]  I feel like wearing a MAGA hat, or branding people that wear MAGA hats, and it wasn't just MAGA hats, it was things like provocative statements like, screw your feelings and stuff like that, they're meant to be provocative.
[14:04.260 --> 14:16.700]  And if you read, it's not about viewpoints, we're not going to, like, ask people what they believe before they come in, but the choice to wear a MAGA hat at a hacker conference, it's not like wearing a MAGA hat in, like, rural Georgia or something.
[14:16.700 --> 14:20.020]  It's meant to be provocative, and it's meant to harass people.
[14:20.740 --> 14:29.780]  If you read the hope, in the booklet it said that part of hope is like being a welcoming environment, we want to make minorities and people feel welcome.
[14:30.680 --> 14:42.820]  Those hats and those shirts do not make people feel welcome, especially in the chair of Trump's era, and thus they're preventing them from being, they're preventing minorities from being able to feel comfortable and feel safe.
[14:42.820 --> 14:49.180]  Yeah, but the thing is, we might not really want to believe this, but there are conservative hackers.
[14:49.480 --> 14:54.920]  And they should be allowed in, but if they wear, but they shouldn't be allowed to, to, like, wear provocative hats.
[14:55.520 --> 15:05.440]  But it's a campaign slogan, it's a campaign slogan of the ruling party, so it's hard to, it's hard to really, you know, equate that to something that is hate speech at this stage.
[15:05.680 --> 15:12.560]  I mean, for us, yeah, we can do that, but I'm saying for the mainstream, you know, we see those hats all the time.
[15:12.820 --> 15:13.380]  They're everywhere.
[15:13.800 --> 15:13.880]  No, we didn't.
[15:13.880 --> 15:15.700]  In New York, I'd never see a Trump hat.
[15:15.700 --> 15:17.720]  You've never seen a MAGA hat in New York?
[15:17.780 --> 15:19.200]  Maybe like four times, and it meant to be for...
[15:19.200 --> 15:20.100]  You are sheltered.
[15:20.140 --> 15:22.160]  I gotta tell you, we have to stop sheltering ourselves.
[15:22.160 --> 15:25.480]  They're out there, and this is the problem, that we don't confront this enough.
[15:26.080 --> 15:31.260]  You know, we live in our safe little world and think that everything is okay, and it's not okay.
[15:31.260 --> 15:32.660]  Banning them is confronting them.
[15:34.340 --> 15:37.520]  No, it's just, it's just further isolating yourself from the problem.
[15:37.660 --> 15:39.380]  I'm not saying embrace them and bring them in.
[15:39.520 --> 15:41.500]  I'm saying, you know, this is reality.
[15:41.500 --> 15:45.320]  These people are out there, and they are a part of our community, too.
[15:45.580 --> 15:47.800]  Unfortunately, that is the case right now.
[15:47.800 --> 15:48.980]  Well, let's change our community and kick them out.
[15:49.120 --> 15:50.220]  Yeah, it's...
[15:50.220 --> 15:51.360]  When they're being provocative.
[15:51.880 --> 15:53.300]  When they're being... I agree with that.
[15:53.360 --> 15:53.500]  I totally agree with that.
[15:53.500 --> 16:05.940]  When they were in MAGA hat at a hacker conference in the Northeast, where tons of talks are about fighting the alt-right and Antifa, and that's what would be... we've been praised for being, like, the most Antifa hacker con I've heard.
[16:05.940 --> 16:08.960]  And that's great, and I want hope to be that.
[16:09.360 --> 16:12.080]  Like, hope is not a representation of society.
[16:12.300 --> 16:18.960]  And society writ large, you should let people wear, make provocative things and wear racist hats.
[16:19.060 --> 16:23.380]  But hope is not that we could choose who hope is.
[16:23.600 --> 16:32.380]  Well, you know, again, any directly racist statement or symbol, that, to me, is actionable right there.
[16:33.320 --> 16:39.260]  I think what we're debating here is whether a Make America Great hat fulfills that particular...
[16:39.260 --> 16:40.720]  Yeah, it's not a Republican Party hat.
[16:40.860 --> 16:41.260]  It's a...
[16:41.260 --> 16:42.940]  Oh, I think it is a Republican Party hat.
[16:42.940 --> 16:46.420]  I think a Republican Party bears 100% of responsibility for what's going on.
[16:46.860 --> 16:48.540]  But that's a whole other show.
[16:49.840 --> 16:51.500]  Anyone else have opinions on this?
[16:52.440 --> 16:53.220]  Rob, go ahead.
[16:53.500 --> 17:00.860]  I think the hats themselves are almost secondary to the real issue here, which was that, yes, we didn't want to believe that things were happening at this level.
[17:00.860 --> 17:03.100]  We didn't want to believe that we were subject to this sort of attack.
[17:03.280 --> 17:04.300]  And it was an attack.
[17:04.540 --> 17:07.840]  It was an attack on us, our conference, our community.
[17:08.460 --> 17:12.230]  And it was a successful one based on what happened.
[17:12.470 --> 17:19.340]  And I think what we need to really figure out is when is something actionable?
[17:19.560 --> 17:21.780]  Is it when they're wearing something or is it when they're doing something?
[17:21.780 --> 17:38.960]  And I'm far more inclined to say when they're doing something, we should definitely have more vigorously enforced things in place to decide whether or not somebody should be part of our event from that point.
[17:39.210 --> 17:40.860]  And how do you define doing something?
[17:41.210 --> 17:51.510]  Well, like actions that these people were taking that could have seemed, if you only saw one or two of them, that they were isolated events by isolated idiots.
[17:51.680 --> 17:59.200]  But when, in retrospect, it becomes clear that at least some of this was coordinated, it was organized.
[18:00.540 --> 18:01.730]  You said it was unfortunate.
[18:01.730 --> 18:05.230]  And I take a little issue with that, because I don't think it was a matter of fortune.
[18:05.230 --> 18:10.510]  I think it was a matter of deliberate action on the parts of those who wanted to disrupt our event.
[18:10.510 --> 18:11.960]  And disrupt it, they did.
[18:12.560 --> 18:13.800]  So it was...
[18:14.680 --> 18:17.080]  So something happened that we were not prepared for.
[18:18.070 --> 18:21.810]  Something happened that we will damn well be prepared for the next time.
[18:21.810 --> 18:25.810]  And we will not allow things to get to such a point again.
[18:25.810 --> 18:27.750]  I think that's what we need to take away from this.
[18:27.940 --> 18:32.510]  Yeah, I think people also have to understand our community a little bit more.
[18:33.530 --> 18:35.920]  We are not a monolithic corporation.
[18:35.920 --> 18:40.120]  I saw complaints about our employees not understanding how...
[18:40.120 --> 18:46.270]  You know, like somebody, you know, ordered something at Starbucks and got the wrong thing, and they're outraged, and I want to speak to a manager.
[18:46.550 --> 18:47.420]  That's not us.
[18:47.470 --> 18:48.420]  That's not who we are.
[18:48.710 --> 18:54.840]  You know, we are part of the community that you are a part of as well, and we need to work together to solve these problems.
[18:54.960 --> 19:09.180]  And I saw too many people that were unwilling to do that, that just simply wanted to condemn and, you know, wait for some kind of shaming online to take place and not actually, you know, figure out ways to deal with this, because this is new to us as well.
[19:09.200 --> 19:12.310]  And you have to understand that we're trying our best.
[19:12.460 --> 19:13.140]  We're volunteers.
[19:13.140 --> 19:14.920]  We're doing all kinds of other things.
[19:14.990 --> 19:22.680]  I mean, for God's sake, you know, we had that horrible medical emergency where our security people actually saved somebody's life.
[19:23.670 --> 19:33.840]  And that is, you know, we have so many things going on over the course of a weekend that we can't expect and that we also do expect that take up so much of our time.
[19:33.940 --> 19:39.030]  So it's not hard to overwhelm us, and this was a great indication of how that could be done.
[19:39.200 --> 19:45.420]  So, you know, more support at a time like that is what is needed, not to continue to chisel away at the weaknesses.
[19:45.790 --> 20:00.070]  And I think that's something that we all can learn from, and not only at Hope, but throughout the country, because if we don't band together and fight what we all agree is wrong and evil, that wrong and evil is just going to keep getting stronger.
[20:00.310 --> 20:04.210]  You know, for instance, we're talking about somebody with one of those hats.
[20:04.570 --> 20:12.100]  Okay, somebody with a hat standing there, not really doing anything, but just, you know, their existence is offensive to a lot of people.
[20:12.290 --> 20:20.550]  And eventually it made somebody do something, made somebody grab the hat off the person's head, head, which technically is assault.
[20:20.810 --> 20:24.420]  And if it happened the other way around, I think we'd have no problem seeing that.
[20:24.700 --> 20:27.250]  So the person who did that had to be ejected.
[20:27.620 --> 20:37.640]  And the alt-right people win because they kept their cool, they got a reaction, and they were able to strike against somebody else.
[20:37.990 --> 20:42.180]  This is the kind of thing that we need to be, you know, one step ahead if we want to win.
[20:42.180 --> 20:47.100]  And it's really the only way to get through these situations.
[20:47.250 --> 20:47.730]  Alex?
[20:47.860 --> 20:56.270]  Yeah, I think this debate really is underscoring the issue of, you know, at what point do you have the necessary and sufficient evidence to eject somebody from a conference like this?
[20:56.270 --> 21:14.750]  And the danger here is that, from my point of view, it underscores something that you just said, Emmanuel, which is if we were to eject these people, these provocateurs, these make America great agents too early, just on the basis of viewpoint, then they win.
[21:14.880 --> 21:17.160]  Because then they are on the moral high ground.
[21:17.250 --> 21:19.880]  And they're the ones who were victimized.
[21:19.970 --> 21:21.420]  And then they can play the victim card.
[21:21.570 --> 21:38.250]  And on the other hand, if they created a provocative situation like they did, and if they played the victim card like they did, and we let them back into the conference like we did, then they had license to intimidate and harass, like they did.
[21:38.840 --> 21:40.960]  We're not going to make that mistake again.
[21:41.770 --> 21:44.750]  Now, let's think about this in terms of a thought experiment.
[21:45.100 --> 21:52.000]  If this was a Trump rally, and we were wearing a Bernie Sanders shirt, would we be expected to be let in?
[21:53.340 --> 21:54.140]  Probably not.
[21:54.440 --> 21:55.600]  Well, I think yes.
[21:55.740 --> 21:58.140]  I just think that we wouldn't be treated so well.
[21:58.360 --> 21:58.740]  Okay.
[21:58.940 --> 22:01.020]  Well, I wouldn't expect to be let in, but then again, I can't imagine.
[22:01.020 --> 22:06.360]  Maybe you'd expect to be let in, but you'd expect to be abused and harassed and whatnot.
[22:07.220 --> 22:14.720]  But that's not for the people at the door to decide who comes in and who is not let in on the basis of a t-shirt or a hat.
[22:15.620 --> 22:23.440]  If somebody with a Bernie Sanders shirt showed up at a Trump rally and started disrupting and causing a scene, well, then perhaps they can get ejected.
[22:23.540 --> 22:35.840]  But it would be very much in the province of the Trump supporters at a Trump rally to make somebody wearing a Bernie Sanders shirt uncomfortable, and to let them know that they're not welcome there.
[22:36.120 --> 22:45.020]  And I think that we had that to an extent at our conference, but for some reason, these people were extraordinarily persistent because they were professionals.
[22:45.880 --> 22:53.460]  Well, everyone probably has noticed that this is a time in our country where people are pretty much on edge and polarized.
[22:53.460 --> 23:01.840]  There are a lot of things that are symbolic for many people about what is going on, what people like, what people don't like.
[23:02.440 --> 23:10.260]  Just the American flag in and of itself is a symbol that's atrocious for many and something positive for others.
[23:10.500 --> 23:19.620]  We don't really know what that symbol means for the person who has the flag until they do something or say something.
[23:20.050 --> 23:30.940]  And a swastika is very clear at this point, and it didn't take too long during World War II for that symbol to become apparent what it means.
[23:31.550 --> 23:40.020]  Someone wearing a Make America Great Again hat is definitely a symbol for me personally of something extremely negative and hateful.
[23:40.980 --> 23:58.140]  This is the first time in my lifetime that I'm aware of where a president used speech against whole groups of people in order to raise their, you know, to gain political power.
[23:58.570 --> 24:00.140]  And to me, that's atrocious.
[24:00.340 --> 24:06.680]  And the MAGA hat, I didn't even know it was called MAGA until people came up with it and people were calling it that at Hope this time.
[24:06.680 --> 24:09.720]  But that is a symbol for me of that.
[24:10.260 --> 24:16.900]  But I've met people who wear these hats who, for them, they don't see it that way.
[24:17.340 --> 24:22.740]  And there may be people in our community as well who are wearing that hat and want to wear that hat.
[24:23.120 --> 24:33.680]  I would feel personally very uncomfortable ejecting someone simply for wearing that hat because we don't know what it means to that person who's wearing it.
[24:33.680 --> 24:54.500]  But if someone, as has been stated here, comes to Hope, or I hope any other kind of gathering of people, to disrupt, to troll, getting, ejecting them as soon as possible once that becomes apparent is, I think, super important.
[24:54.500 --> 24:59.070]  And as you were pointing out earlier, when do you know that?
[24:59.070 --> 25:05.180]  We definitely knew that, I think, collectively way before these people were ejected.
[25:05.240 --> 25:08.140]  And we messed up badly as a result of that.
[25:08.540 --> 25:13.180]  Many people did feel really put out as a result of that.
[25:13.180 --> 25:14.520]  And I don't blame them.
[25:14.840 --> 25:16.780]  But yeah, we're all volunteers.
[25:17.070 --> 25:17.860]  None of us are paid.
[25:17.980 --> 25:18.920]  There's no employees.
[25:18.920 --> 25:20.760]  There's no corporation.
[25:20.790 --> 25:22.360]  We're doing the best we can.
[25:22.520 --> 25:23.540]  And we messed up.
[25:23.720 --> 25:25.070]  We didn't do well with this.
[25:25.240 --> 25:26.900]  And we are learning.
[25:27.070 --> 25:29.540]  And we need to get better.
[25:30.360 --> 25:34.570]  Yeah, as far as preparedness, I'd say we weren't prepared to confront them, necessarily.
[25:35.200 --> 25:41.810]  I think what I saw was a lot of whispering and a lot of, I think, older tactics of tolerance.
[25:41.810 --> 25:50.760]  Thinking, okay, well, we'll be better than this and allow them to exist here, but watch them and investigate if anything comes up.
[25:51.100 --> 26:04.900]  And, of course, you know, not getting various reports and, you know, I don't know, messages through our own mechanism that we had designed makes us question the mechanism a little bit.
[26:04.900 --> 26:19.500]  But also, you know, it's harder to investigate unless we have actions like that, because I'm kind of also a little, I guess, cautious about saying someone can't wear one or the other thing, with obvious exceptions.
[26:19.500 --> 26:26.980]  But I think shirts and hats aren't necessarily, you know, a barrier to entry at this point.
[26:27.180 --> 26:38.380]  And I would add to that or qualify that with something that was said here just now that I also agree with, is that as a society, I think we're still defining what that means right now.
[26:39.040 --> 26:42.920]  I'd like to quickly address something that just came down on Twitter.
[26:43.360 --> 26:49.120]  Someone, a listener, says we're comparing people who had issues with people being cornered, threatened, and harassed by fascists.
[26:49.790 --> 26:54.340]  And were ignored when they complained to staff as people asking to see a manager because their Starbucks order was wrong.
[26:55.350 --> 26:58.790]  And I don't think that's at all the point we were trying to make.
[26:58.880 --> 27:08.860]  The point we were trying to make is, like, this isn't a situation like a Starbucks where there's a very clear-cut, pre-existing way of doing these things that just simply solves a problem.
[27:08.980 --> 27:12.100]  This is not an easy answer like giving someone else another cup of coffee.
[27:12.100 --> 27:19.900]  This is something that I think we're all admitting at this point we were under-prepared to deal with, and something that we're still figuring out.
[27:20.350 --> 27:26.880]  Yeah, so far we've only been making it to illusions of, like, what happened beyond where they went into active harassment.
[27:27.140 --> 27:31.900]  And we should make sure that we point out that this wasn't just, like, people wearing hats.
[27:31.900 --> 27:40.740]  People went as far as to, like, stalk people in after these talks and tried to, like, DDOS their questions with, like, harassing people.
[27:41.000 --> 27:43.280]  And that was actually what happened before the hat was stolen.
[27:44.080 --> 27:49.700]  Somebody was asking really harassing questions to Matt Blaze's talk.
[27:49.700 --> 27:58.500]  Um, and, uh, so yeah, so it wasn't, and it's, like, I was just, like, stalking people back to their hotel rooms and, like, berating them.
[27:58.640 --> 28:05.570]  So it wasn't just, like, the hats and, and that's where we have to be extra prepared for, the, the harassment that happened.
[28:06.810 --> 28:09.160]  Joining us on the phone, our friend Bernie S.
[28:09.240 --> 28:09.790]  Bernie, welcome.
[28:11.160 --> 28:12.200]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[28:12.600 --> 28:13.050]  Hope you're, uh...
[28:13.050 --> 28:14.520]  And I've been listening, uh, go ahead.
[28:14.680 --> 28:16.570]  Hope you're recovered from, from this weekend.
[28:17.160 --> 28:18.290]  Not, uh, not fully.
[28:19.700 --> 28:21.880]  In mind, and, uh, of course, we all have a lot of fatigue, too.
[28:22.680 --> 28:25.760]  Um, I've been listening, uh, before I got on the phone here with you folks.
[28:25.900 --> 28:31.520]  And, um, uh, I think it's important that we come up with definitions for the words we're using, like harassment.
[28:31.900 --> 28:37.140]  Um, to look it up, um, there are different definitions, but one of them is, says, repeated.
[28:37.460 --> 28:42.790]  Uh, some, says something annoying, um, or says something that you find offensive.
[28:44.400 --> 28:45.940]  That's not necessarily harassment.
[28:46.540 --> 28:54.670]  Uh, I heard, uh, Rob just read something from someone who wrote, in saying, uh, staff was just ignoring, uh, complaints from attendees.
[28:55.480 --> 28:59.140]  I don't think anybody from staff ignored anybody's complaints.
[28:59.290 --> 29:03.420]  But I think there, it established a dialogue where people asked, well, what, what was happening?
[29:03.980 --> 29:05.760]  Please, you know, there's a process.
[29:05.980 --> 29:06.440]  There's a website.
[29:06.640 --> 29:07.600]  There's a phone number to call.
[29:07.980 --> 29:10.070]  And I may have missed some of this earlier on the show.
[29:10.070 --> 29:15.760]  But I think everybody who talked to somebody in staff about a concern was asked, did you see something?
[29:15.920 --> 29:17.290]  Did you personally experience something?
[29:17.290 --> 29:27.300]  And if so, please take it here, either to the website, fill out the form, or call the phone number on the website, or talk to somebody in security, or some of the staff who can bring you to that phone number or website.
[29:28.220 --> 29:38.860]  Um, but we needed to, in order to be able to process, um, people's issues or concerns that were brought to us, we need to determine what, what are the words are that are in the, uh, code of conduct.
[29:39.160 --> 29:41.000]  Um, is harassment a repeated thing?
[29:41.310 --> 29:43.640]  Is asking a really uncomfortable question?
[29:44.400 --> 29:46.700]  Um, is that harassment if you're asking it once?
[29:46.810 --> 29:48.570]  Or you just tell a person, go away if they do it again?
[29:48.780 --> 29:51.020]  That is harassment, by my definition.
[29:51.020 --> 29:51.600]  Mm-hmm.
[29:52.310 --> 30:01.290]  But, um, overall with the conference, I think we're, we're shifting more towards a conversational thing, which I think is a good, good idea.
[30:01.520 --> 30:08.160]  I like, uh, that we didn't necessarily have keynote speakers who were speaking at, um, the audience.
[30:08.660 --> 30:20.680]  Um, we sort of got away from keynote speakers this time when we had some very high-profile speakers that were set up in an interview format where people could listen to a dialogue, uh, of ideas.
[30:21.020 --> 30:21.680]  Back and forth.
[30:22.180 --> 30:27.600]  And then they had an extended period of time, at least 20 minutes, of, uh, extended audience Q&A.
[30:28.050 --> 30:32.940]  So, I mean, each of those, uh, those high-profile speakers had, like, two-hour slots, basically.
[30:33.120 --> 30:39.600]  But we have to put 10 minutes between the, between the slots to provide time for the next person to set up and so forth.
[30:39.660 --> 30:48.070]  But I think the 90-minute interview format, um, followed by 20 minutes of extended audience Q&A, I think it worked out pretty well.
[30:48.310 --> 30:53.240]  And I like listening to conversations about ideas, uh, and things.
[30:53.420 --> 31:03.600]  And, um, uh, I wouldn't mind having keynote speakers again in the future, but I think we want to build on this, uh, uh, conversational, uh, interview format on stage.
[31:03.760 --> 31:04.700]  I think it worked out really well.
[31:04.790 --> 31:05.240]  What do you think?
[31:05.240 --> 31:08.550]  No, it definitely, in, in, in the case of Chelsea, it certainly worked out well.
[31:08.700 --> 31:10.620]  It was, uh, it was quite interesting.
[31:10.780 --> 31:15.940]  And I, you know, based on, on, on what people have told me, I wasn't actually in the room at the time.
[31:16.360 --> 31:19.720]  Uh, she handled, um, confrontational questions quite well.
[31:19.720 --> 31:22.900]  And I think many of our speakers did and do.
[31:23.340 --> 31:26.550]  And, uh, I think that's also a part of the whole exchange.
[31:27.020 --> 31:42.360]  Uh, and, and, but we also have to be prepared for those people who abuse this, abuse the, the, um, the access, uh, that, that is, um, available at these conferences, uh, and, um, is it simply there to harass and, and, and annoy.
[31:42.960 --> 31:46.000]  Um, so it's, it's, you know, it's a tough thing.
[31:46.000 --> 31:52.280]  And we're focusing, uh, virtually all of our discussion on the thing that didn't work, the thing that was a problem.
[31:52.290 --> 31:53.900]  I don't want to give the wrong impression.
[31:54.160 --> 31:58.050]  I don't want people to think that, uh, it was a weekend of misery and craziness.
[31:58.260 --> 32:08.280]  Uh, it was, um, uh, you know, just having a few, a few of these instances is enough for us to want to focus all of our attention on them.
[32:08.760 --> 32:20.960]  But, um, one thing I noticed when I was, um, uh, reading the accounts and then when I was actually in the space, it was like two different worlds because people were, were having a great time.
[32:21.140 --> 32:27.600]  People were, um, um, uh, learning all kinds of things and having conversations and many weren't even aware of what was going on.
[32:27.700 --> 32:29.180]  That does not excuse any of this.
[32:29.260 --> 32:30.840]  That does not minimize any of this.
[32:31.200 --> 32:38.680]  But, uh, we have to be accurate as far as what was actually happening at the conference on, on, you know, the, the, the grand scale.
[32:38.680 --> 32:50.040]  Uh, and I think, um, I, I, I, you know, I, I think we, uh, we are identifying where the problems were, but we should not also ignore the things that did work and a great many things did work.
[32:50.180 --> 32:51.960]  And we're very proud of that.
[32:52.070 --> 32:52.980]  We're proud of our attendees.
[32:53.120 --> 32:53.940]  We're proud of our speakers.
[32:54.620 --> 32:59.050]  And, uh, we want people to, um, to freely express themselves good or bad.
[32:59.840 --> 33:09.700]  I had speakers who, uh, uh, I invited to this conference who didn't know any of this stuff was going on because they're not on social media and they were, they were oblivious to going on.
[33:09.780 --> 33:11.920]  Not that it certainly shouldn't have been aware of it.
[33:12.000 --> 33:13.480]  It's good to be aware of what's going on.
[33:13.570 --> 33:30.290]  But, um, I, I think that folks, that some people that got really wrapped up on discussions on Twitter and so forth, um, I think that was, uh, portraying perhaps, uh, a different picture than the people who were actually at the conference, going to talks,
[33:30.440 --> 33:35.840]  going to workshops who might not have, uh, personally experienced or, or witnessed any of this stuff.
[33:35.980 --> 33:49.500]  So it's, it's, uh, you know, I just wanted to say that sometimes things get a different perspective when you look at a Twitter storm versus, uh, being there in place and like, I don't see anything going on.
[33:49.570 --> 33:55.860]  Well, yeah, I mean, it was, it was a Twitter storm and we're not, we're not minimizing the, the, the Twitter aspect of all this.
[33:56.120 --> 34:07.680]  But when you, uh, when you actually looked at it from different perspectives, if, if you had not gone on social media, it's possible you could have gone through the entire weekend without realizing the various other things that were happening to certain people.
[34:08.020 --> 34:21.240]  And, uh, even, even the, um, the, the code of conduct hotline that we set up only one call, only one complaint, one unique complaint from one person to the phone number, uh, email.
[34:21.520 --> 34:27.820]  I think we had a total of about 10, uh, and a couple of those were people who made multiple complaints.
[34:28.100 --> 34:41.440]  And a couple of those were people complaining against the, um, uh, um, the side that we're, we're allegedly on here, basically saying they were, uh, right wing people that were discriminated against.
[34:41.740 --> 34:45.700]  And, um, a couple of people objecting to things that were said on stage by speakers.
[34:46.000 --> 35:00.280]  So the, you know, I don't want to give the impression that, um, it was, it was just complete chaos and mayhem the whole time, but it was enough, enough to get us concerned enough to have us realize that we have to take care of this and we have to work with the community and we have to improve.
[35:00.400 --> 35:02.100]  And I have, I have no doubt that we will.
[35:02.260 --> 35:02.600]  Rob.
[35:02.860 --> 35:03.220]  Absolutely.
[35:03.440 --> 35:05.360]  I mean, being accurate does go both ways.
[35:05.440 --> 35:10.020]  And I just want to address a little bit of what Bernie said, because, um, uh, it, it happens.
[35:10.160 --> 35:17.920]  I do have direct knowledge of someone who did what they were supposed to when they felt threatened by an individual and, uh, saw them doing things that were against our COC.
[35:18.500 --> 35:22.440]  And, uh, at the end of all that, the decision was made to not eject that person.
[35:22.760 --> 35:27.000]  And this was, I don't think related to the, the, uh, event we're talking about.
[35:27.170 --> 35:36.000]  Um, but, uh, it's also, um, I, I think we do have, uh, we do have things to correct in how we were handling all of this and how we're going to handle this going forward.
[35:36.670 --> 35:42.380]  And, uh, I think this is something that we really, we really need to take away lessons on this, uh, all around.
[35:42.900 --> 35:56.000]  And as you said, be better, be better at all of this and every aspect of the conference, uh, whether it's the organizing or, you know, cleanup, setup, whatever, just every aspect of how we pull this off every couple of years, we get better at every time.
[35:56.300 --> 36:03.900]  Um, I think we, we can do that again and, uh, improve how we're dealing with this, learn from it and, uh, and grow.
[36:04.110 --> 36:04.460]  Yeah.
[36:04.650 --> 36:09.920]  And, and hopefully grow with the people that want us to get better and are, are, uh, raising these points.
[36:10.000 --> 36:12.400]  I want to read a piece that I actually saw on Twitter.
[36:12.520 --> 36:20.040]  It was a Twitter thread, which I thought was brilliantly written and, and, uh, and, and sums this up probably better than, than we're doing right here.
[36:20.460 --> 36:23.440]  Um, by, by someone named, uh, Jaris Khan.
[36:23.630 --> 36:24.650]  I hope I'm pronouncing that right.
[36:24.820 --> 36:27.610]  I was a speaker and workshop organizer at Hope this year.
[36:27.690 --> 36:29.800]  My first 2600 meeting was over 20 years ago.
[36:30.150 --> 36:34.520]  I'm also an event organizer with hundreds of events slash concerts slash festivals under my belt.
[36:34.800 --> 36:38.520]  I'm also an anti-racist who has been kicked around by Nazis.
[36:38.860 --> 36:41.340]  Uh, here's my too long take.
[36:41.740 --> 36:53.960]  Uh, Hope had multiple sessions about the alt-right and weaponized trolling, including technical slash ethnographic research, tracking financial transactions, data connections between racist groups, exposing how poor their OPSEC is.
[36:54.400 --> 36:56.820]  If you're a fascist, the Hope schedule is dangerous.
[36:56.940 --> 37:03.820]  Even before this, Hope in 2600 had been coming under increasing fire for being to SJW.
[37:04.070 --> 37:16.400]  This year's program was the most SJW of all social justice warrior, in case you don't know, uh, not just the alt-right talks, but sessions about the rights of sex workers, nuanced discussions of consent and the harassment of women.
[37:16.740 --> 37:27.500]  What better way to prevent Hope from fostering and encouraging this kind of work than to associate the event with fascists so that the people doing anti-fascist work won't associate themselves with it.
[37:27.630 --> 37:33.480]  The conference has a code of conduct that is pretty good on paper, but it's also very new and largely untested.
[37:33.650 --> 37:36.460]  It also explicitly protects political beliefs.
[37:36.650 --> 37:44.170]  Now that's a feature, not a bug, but it's also a vulnerability because using your rules and norms against you is an alt-right go-to.
[37:44.650 --> 37:51.320]  It makes it so damn easy for the MAGA trolls to play not touching you and they telegraphed it.
[37:51.520 --> 38:00.070]  A dude literally stood up in a trolling the trolls session dedicated to Heather Heyer and talked about marching in Charlottesville.
[38:01.760 --> 38:06.150]  Trolling, you know, if I'd known that that had happened then, I would have booted the guy right there.
[38:06.360 --> 38:11.590]  But somebody bragging about marching in Charlottesville, to me, that's a line.
[38:12.130 --> 38:14.650]  A trolling the trolling the trolls session, of course.
[38:15.760 --> 38:18.960]  The Hope process fell down here.
[38:19.070 --> 38:24.900]  Once this happened, staff present should have flagged it to code of conduct, had the guy booted or shadowed by security.
[38:25.480 --> 38:26.440]  But they didn't.
[38:26.800 --> 38:28.630]  Things devolve from this point onwards.
[38:28.900 --> 38:32.760]  Hope should be considered under attack by agent provocateurs.
[38:33.070 --> 38:42.980]  The trolls continued to escalate their agitation, including blocking the aisles and saying anyone who complained was fat shaming them until predictably someone responded physically.
[38:43.780 --> 38:46.590]  This is straight out of the Westboro Baptist Church playbook.
[38:46.760 --> 38:48.170]  Now they can call the cops.
[38:48.420 --> 38:54.170]  By provoking an attendee into clearly breaking the code of conduct, MAGA's exploit the event security.
[38:54.400 --> 39:04.300]  Security does what they're trained to do, which is kick out people who start physical altercations and protect the people on the receiving end of them, even if they're wearing a swastika.
[39:04.400 --> 39:05.460]  Now that's in quotes.
[39:05.460 --> 39:12.000]  I'm not sure how accurate that is if somebody said that, you know, how I feel about hitting Nazis.
[39:12.260 --> 39:26.050]  But for the most part, you know, that quote, you know, erased from this conversation for now, for the most part I would say security did what they were supposed to do.
[39:26.280 --> 39:31.630]  If somebody was involved in a physical altercation, that person is worthy of being ejected.
[39:31.740 --> 39:31.960]  Simple.
[39:33.260 --> 39:36.070]  The idea is not to get in that situation in the first place.
[39:36.240 --> 39:39.320]  Anyway, continuing here, word spreads that they're a fascist present.
[39:39.420 --> 39:42.650]  The person who confronted them got kicked out and the fascists are still there.
[39:44.130 --> 39:45.480]  Hope is slow to respond.
[39:45.610 --> 39:48.670]  People are rightly upset and the perception is that hope is a safe place for Nazis.
[39:49.090 --> 39:51.110]  Activists on Twitter vow to never attend.
[39:51.590 --> 39:57.760]  Now, hope did not have the code of conduct, security, comms, or crisis management infrastructure and training in place to deal with this.
[39:57.860 --> 40:02.090]  And honestly, most conferences don't model for these kinds of threats.
[40:02.240 --> 40:08.300]  They model for drunk dude groping the presenter and racist gray beard drops in bombs.
[40:09.380 --> 40:16.400]  And so now the story of hope isn't how many presenters and staff loudly disavowed racism.
[40:16.400 --> 40:20.130]  It's not the impromptu panels or caucuses that took place.
[40:20.130 --> 40:24.720]  It's not the hour long unscheduled Q&A about how to do better and be a stronger community.
[40:24.980 --> 40:26.240]  It's that there were Nazis.
[40:26.520 --> 40:31.380]  I want to be clear that I'm not minimizing the pain, fear, anger, or disgust that we felt about these dudes.
[40:31.820 --> 40:33.420]  Those feelings are real and valid.
[40:33.550 --> 40:41.900]  The issue is that the alt-right has been effectively and systematically drowning activists in our real and valid feelings since GG.
[40:42.220 --> 40:42.860]  What's GG?
[40:43.170 --> 40:43.610]  Gamergate.
[40:43.860 --> 40:44.550]  Oh, Gamergate.
[40:44.690 --> 40:44.960]  I'm sorry.
[40:45.740 --> 40:53.260]  This was an extremely effective op from alt-right agitators, one of whom has been identified as disrupting groups since Occupy.
[40:54.590 --> 41:02.050]  Professionals, basically, walking into a volunteer-heavy conference with social norms that they have spent years successfully demonstrating exploits for.
[41:02.550 --> 41:04.220]  I'm not absolving hope from blame.
[41:04.340 --> 41:05.780]  They didn't effectively plan for this.
[41:05.860 --> 41:06.760]  They made bad decisions.
[41:06.760 --> 41:09.920]  They let this get out of hand and they lost the trust of a big part of their community.
[41:10.090 --> 41:13.760]  And it's going to take a lot of time, effort, trust, and money to repair that rift.
[41:14.190 --> 41:19.400]  But the reason why this all happened isn't because Nazis think hope is a safe space.
[41:19.550 --> 41:24.880]  It's because hope is where the people fighting Nazis are sharpening their swords.
[41:26.740 --> 41:36.400]  And, wow, Sharers Khan, that is just brilliantly written and there's almost nothing I can point to that I would even add to in that.
[41:37.840 --> 41:39.690]  These are the problems that we face.
[41:39.840 --> 41:40.190]  Walter?
[41:40.440 --> 41:45.260]  Yeah, a lot of people on Twitter, in fact, most of them seem to be wanting to point out incidents.
[41:45.460 --> 41:55.630]  And they're very real incidents and like terrible about us volunteer security not enforcing the code of conduct and terrible decisions they made.
[41:55.690 --> 42:00.820]  And I think that's one of the downsides of having a volunteer-run event.
[42:00.920 --> 42:03.550]  It's that like not everybody's gonna be equally effective.
[42:03.800 --> 42:07.670]  So I don't want to act like like our volunteers were perfect.
[42:08.050 --> 42:16.380]  And there are lots of incidents like so I mentioned that they were somebody was let back in after they had a documented case.
[42:16.720 --> 42:20.900]  So I did not hear that at all that someone was let back in after they were kicked out.
[42:21.440 --> 42:24.800]  Yeah, I mean I'd like some documentation on that because I did not hear that.
[42:24.940 --> 42:30.240]  So is it okay for Trump supporters to be on our security staff or is that like not?
[42:30.360 --> 42:31.740]  Yeah, as long as they follow our policy.
[42:32.280 --> 42:32.460]  Okay.
[42:33.880 --> 42:43.070]  And also people ask like whether we're gonna have whether things like swastikas are as things should be if they should be banned.
[42:43.260 --> 42:44.260]  And I think there's general consensus.
[42:44.540 --> 42:47.070]  Who would say that swastikas are allowed?
[42:47.280 --> 42:48.820]  This is what I'm having trouble with.
[42:48.860 --> 42:51.340]  Okay, so you're clearly saying that swastikas are not allowed.
[42:51.480 --> 42:52.090]  Of course not.
[42:52.400 --> 42:54.070]  But who would say that they are?
[42:54.190 --> 42:57.540]  That's what I'm you know, I hear people saying these things making these accusations.
[42:57.800 --> 43:03.980]  But I want to know who said that that that's okay, you know, because that's something that I take pretty seriously.
[43:04.360 --> 43:23.320]  My point was just that there's a huge spectrum of participants and volunteers and I mean it is unfair actually and we will look at the policies but it's very difficult to put the volunteers that are looking for obvious like assault and stuff like that in a political debate,
[43:23.690 --> 43:23.840]  right?
[43:24.420 --> 43:26.280]  So part of that is... Hope is political.
[43:27.050 --> 43:28.190]  Well, we're all political.
[43:28.360 --> 43:29.540]  There's no question about that.
[43:29.670 --> 43:36.040]  Right, but for them to like make a call over whether someone is too political for the for the event I think is unfair.
[43:36.480 --> 43:37.460]  Well, here's the thing.
[43:38.190 --> 43:45.340]  When we're talking about our own security as if as if there's something separate from us, security, our security is our community.
[43:45.520 --> 43:46.200]  They're from our community.
[43:46.280 --> 43:49.200]  In fact, every bit of this conference, this is what makes it unique.
[43:49.500 --> 43:54.760]  We're not hiring out professional security guards that have no conception of who we are.
[43:55.180 --> 44:03.300]  These are people that are part of our community, have been for years and I think we need more people to help us with this.
[44:03.480 --> 44:11.720]  More people from the community, not from outside, not people who aren't familiar with the history of the hacker world or what hacker values are all about.
[44:11.900 --> 44:18.960]  We need people that understand this, that are willing to put in the effort to prevent this kind of thing from happening.
[44:19.180 --> 44:26.840]  And I think in that way this this incident can can make us stronger and can make us a lot more able to prevent it from happening in the future.
[44:28.500 --> 44:36.560]  So if people if people out there listening have experiences and feedback that they want to share with us, what's the best place for what's the best way for them to do that?
[44:36.620 --> 44:42.800]  We have an email address feedback at hope.net where people can can send in their their feelings.
[44:43.060 --> 44:45.620]  We've actually had quite a few already.
[44:46.220 --> 44:51.520]  And most of them are pretty nice, but I'm not going to read those now because that's not really the theme of tonight.
[44:52.080 --> 45:00.060]  But and any of any any kind of experience you had positive or negative we want to hear about.
[45:00.200 --> 45:09.780]  We want to hear what we can do better, what we can what we did well and understand that we are doing the best we can and it's not always going to work.
[45:10.920 --> 45:12.040]  And we are listening.
[45:12.040 --> 45:12.860]  Absolutely.
[45:13.240 --> 45:31.460]  I mean, I think the the very fact that we have to have this debate about painting hope with some kind of fascist or Nazi sympathizer type brush shows us how very effective these agent provocateurs were at doing their job exploiting the code of conduct.
[45:32.120 --> 45:37.660]  It felt like it when we were in the moment that we were dealing with some kind of agent provocateur.
[45:37.860 --> 45:46.080]  But at the same time, you couldn't help but feeling like it's some kind of crazy conspiracy theorist for thinking that that this would happen at hope.
[45:46.300 --> 45:50.580]  But, you know, in retrospect, it's exactly what happened.
[45:50.680 --> 46:05.620]  And it's because that the panoply of speakers, myself included, we're calling out Nazis, we're demonstrating how to detect them, how to troll them, you know, trolling the Nazis got trolled, you know, trolling the trolls essentially got trolled.
[46:05.660 --> 46:10.320]  It was this crazy situation where they really tried to turn everything upside down.
[46:10.380 --> 46:20.600]  In my talk in particular, we called out the raging anti-Semitic remarks of the person who was the primary object of our talk, the cyber squatter that scared Trump.
[46:21.020 --> 46:27.200]  We put them on the screen and I said right after I put those raging anti-Semitic remarks on the screen.
[46:27.620 --> 46:31.900]  Seeing that gave me a hell of a lot less reluctance to call this guy out publicly.
[46:32.160 --> 46:33.220]  And that's what we did.
[46:33.400 --> 46:35.280]  And that's what we will continue to do.
[46:35.420 --> 46:37.480]  It is not a safe place for Nazis.
[46:37.480 --> 46:39.380]  It is not a safe place for fascists.
[46:39.540 --> 46:41.480]  It's a safe place for independent thinkers.
[46:41.680 --> 46:46.960]  It's a safe place if you are interested in, you know, differing viewpoints.
[46:47.380 --> 46:54.920]  And I think it becomes dangerous for us to go down the road of engaging in any kind of discrimination on the basis of viewpoint.
[46:54.920 --> 47:03.920]  Because when we kick people out on the basis of wearing a hat or their political persuasions, that's tantamount to saying that you have nothing to contribute to our community.
[47:04.140 --> 47:06.340]  That's exactly what they want us to say.
[47:06.680 --> 47:08.060]  That's exactly what they want to say.
[47:08.220 --> 47:10.160]  Nobody's arguing about a Nazi hat though, Voltaire.
[47:10.260 --> 47:11.380]  You just said any hat.
[47:11.880 --> 47:12.500]  A MAGA hat.
[47:12.640 --> 47:13.620]  I'm talking about a MAGA hat.
[47:13.720 --> 47:14.900]  A Nazi hat would be something.
[47:15.020 --> 47:16.380]  That's basically hate speech.
[47:16.500 --> 47:21.040]  I think a MAGA hat is, at a hacker conference in New York City, a MAGA hat is meant to people.
[47:21.220 --> 47:24.280]  Well, I don't think that's the prevailing opinion.
[47:24.560 --> 47:26.300]  I mean... On Twitter, it overwhelmingly is.
[47:26.300 --> 47:27.540]  Okay, but we don't live on Twitter.
[47:27.600 --> 47:28.340]  We live on earth.
[47:28.500 --> 47:29.820]  We live in the real world.
[47:30.080 --> 47:32.800]  And I'm talking about the people... How many people have you asked in the real world?
[47:32.820 --> 47:33.580]  I'm sure I've seen more.
[47:33.580 --> 47:38.200]  I'm talking about the people that were actually there, the people that we interact with every day.
[47:38.820 --> 47:46.100]  And, you know, I just... I don't want to overdo the, you know, policing here.
[47:47.320 --> 47:47.720]  Absolutely.
[47:48.400 --> 47:48.800]  Nazis.
[47:49.080 --> 47:49.480]  Fascists.
[47:49.560 --> 47:50.680]  There's no question there.
[47:50.800 --> 47:54.320]  And we have to... we have to really come down hard on that kind of a thing.
[47:54.440 --> 48:00.080]  But if we're going to say anybody right of center is equivalent to that, I think that's a very dangerous road to be going down.
[48:00.260 --> 48:06.920]  Wearing a MAGA hat is not... it's not... at a hacker conference in New York City is not the same as being quote unquote right of center.
[48:07.060 --> 48:08.120]  It's an extreme statement.
[48:08.320 --> 48:10.400]  I don't know how extreme it really is.
[48:10.660 --> 48:14.600]  All of us are really of very similar mind.
[48:14.880 --> 48:18.760]  And this is true of many, many, many people at Hope as well.
[48:18.920 --> 48:22.300]  And yet we all disagree on what crosses what line.
[48:22.560 --> 48:25.540]  This is not an easy thing to come up with.
[48:25.700 --> 48:32.620]  And especially in the... all the heats of all the moments of who's crossing what line when, it's super difficult.
[48:32.660 --> 48:39.500]  And the trolls make use of that and did effectively, which is super nasty.
[48:39.940 --> 48:43.500]  And, you know, somehow we have to be prepared for things like this.
[48:43.860 --> 48:47.180]  But, you know, just the discussion we're having here, I think, is really good.
[48:47.460 --> 48:48.740]  We all have different places.
[48:48.920 --> 48:53.000]  These symbols mean very powerful different things for different people.
[48:53.400 --> 48:57.480]  Like you, a MAGA hat is a symbol of hatred.
[48:58.000 --> 49:13.620]  It's a symbol of the Trump administration coming to power by saying things that are explicitly hateful against gay people, against that S-word that you're not supposed to say on radio, countries, and many, many other things.
[49:13.760 --> 49:16.760]  But it means different things to different people.
[49:17.000 --> 49:21.880]  There are people at Hope who did vote for that guy with small hands in the White House.
[49:22.040 --> 49:22.300]  Exactly.
[49:22.640 --> 49:24.700]  And I don't agree with that.
[49:24.860 --> 49:33.400]  But to keep them from being able to wear this hat, because I think it's a symbol of hatred, is me imposing my views on them.
[49:33.400 --> 49:34.700]  And I don't think that's right.
[49:34.800 --> 49:36.720]  You can say the exact same thing about a Nazi hat.
[49:37.100 --> 49:37.940]  No, but it's not...
[49:37.940 --> 49:39.500]  They are different, for God's sake.
[49:39.580 --> 49:40.680]  They are not the same thing.
[49:40.680 --> 49:43.440]  A Nazi hat is a symbol of anti-Semitism.
[49:43.440 --> 49:46.620]  And to say that is, people actually live through Nazism.
[49:46.780 --> 49:49.140]  Think about how that lands with them.
[49:49.160 --> 49:51.080]  No, I'm not saying that they're exactly the same thing.
[49:51.200 --> 50:00.480]  I'm saying that somebody wearing a Nazi hat should say like, oh, well, to you it might mean something hateful, but to me... But there's a consensus in society at large.
[50:00.480 --> 50:05.960]  And I think there's a consensus in that... We are not debating how evil Nazism is, okay?
[50:06.140 --> 50:07.080]  That's established.
[50:07.440 --> 50:09.120]  We do not have to go over this.
[50:09.920 --> 50:10.260]  All right.
[50:11.900 --> 50:26.940]  One other comment I wanted to make was that... Well, two comments that I think... I just want to reiterate that, you know, someone ought to have maybe been brave enough to maybe confront them a little bit or talk to them.
[50:27.060 --> 50:29.960]  Like, ask them, hey, you know, what are you doing down here?
[50:29.960 --> 50:32.080]  Or what are you interested in hacking on?
[50:32.560 --> 50:33.860]  You know, engage in a dialogue.
[50:34.020 --> 50:47.580]  And I think also, like, those opportunities, however naive this might be, would have been opportunities to engage and find out maybe if they're considering, you know, changing some of their views, you know, and they're there.
[50:48.380 --> 50:51.420]  Why not expose them to other ways of being?
[50:51.540 --> 50:53.040]  I know that's very idealistic.
[50:53.060 --> 50:54.140]  That's very idealistic.
[50:54.860 --> 50:56.580]  And I don't think it would work.
[50:56.740 --> 50:59.740]  But what I do think would work would be outsmarting them.
[51:00.040 --> 51:01.540]  And we did not outsmart them.
[51:01.660 --> 51:03.260]  That is what really pisses me off.
[51:03.360 --> 51:07.200]  And not not... you can't just blame the coordinators.
[51:07.320 --> 51:15.500]  I think the entire community, we should have all worked together on this and just gotten them to leave in frustration or to look like complete idiots and not to win.
[51:15.560 --> 51:16.760]  Well, they're agent provocateurs.
[51:17.000 --> 51:17.660]  They weren't there.
[51:17.820 --> 51:20.320]  They don't care about it if they look... I know what they don't care about.
[51:20.460 --> 51:22.180]  That's why you have to outsmart them.
[51:22.300 --> 51:23.000]  They're agent provocateurs.
[51:23.160 --> 51:23.720]  We know this.
[51:23.860 --> 51:40.320]  But as far as moving, moving them around, keeping them from hovering over or doing things to intimidate people, I think we as a community could have found our own sort of social ways to make it uncomfortable, like you're saying, like engaging them and,
[51:40.380 --> 51:41.860]  you know, hey, why don't we walk over here?
[51:41.960 --> 51:55.980]  You know, all of these kinds of things, I think we were whispering way too much and not actually like getting a group and saying, hey, you know... Did anyone in this... did anyone in this room actually see someone wearing a MAGA hat?
[51:56.260 --> 51:57.260]  Because I didn't.
[51:57.380 --> 51:57.720]  I did.
[51:57.900 --> 51:58.480]  I did not.
[51:58.620 --> 51:58.940]  I did.
[51:59.140 --> 51:59.540]  I did.
[51:59.680 --> 51:59.820]  Yeah?
[52:00.000 --> 52:03.000]  Because if I did, I would have engaged them for sure.
[52:03.340 --> 52:05.240]  So one... I want to clarify something that happened.
[52:05.400 --> 52:12.480]  There's a lot of, uh, uh, incorrect information for Twitter and, and articles, uh, news articles.
[52:12.720 --> 52:23.620]  There was a person wearing a make America great hat, uh, standing in line at the microphone at the extended Q&A, uh, Chelsea Manning's, uh, interview talk.
[52:24.060 --> 52:25.940]  Um, there were several people back.
[52:25.940 --> 52:27.520]  There was a long line, obviously.
[52:28.540 --> 52:35.200]  And, uh, I was, uh, emceeing that I didn't... I had, you know, talk with Emmanuel.
[52:35.400 --> 52:40.520]  He introduced Chelsea and I made sure that, um, it ended at the right times for the next speaker to get on.
[52:40.880 --> 52:48.260]  But it was also managing the time to make sure that the, the, the conversation and the Q&A ended 10 minutes before the hour.
[52:48.680 --> 52:51.060]  So I got up near where the microphone was happening.
[52:51.460 --> 52:52.580]  I saw the time.
[52:52.740 --> 52:53.480]  I was locking my watch.
[52:53.480 --> 52:54.620]  I have a very accurate watch.
[52:55.260 --> 53:04.800]  And it ended precisely 10 minutes before the hour, just when the make America... I mean, it was just, you know, it was cosmic timing, but it was not intentional.
[53:04.940 --> 53:13.680]  It worked out that way that the guy with the MAGA hat got to the mic in precisely 10 minutes to, uh, the end of the hour.
[53:13.860 --> 53:15.800]  We could not have made that happen, really.
[53:16.100 --> 53:17.380]  It's just how it worked out.
[53:18.140 --> 53:25.940]  Uh, unfortunately, one of our, uh, attendees got snarky with the guy because he didn't get a chance to get in the mic, and that resulted in an altercation.
[53:26.720 --> 53:29.280]  And, um, fortunately, it didn't go very far.
[53:29.600 --> 53:32.360]  But, you know, people have to be civil.
[53:32.800 --> 53:33.960]  And, but that's what happened.
[53:34.060 --> 53:42.500]  There was a guy with the MAGA hat, he didn't get a chance to ask Chelsea, uh, Clinton a question, Chelsea Clinton, I'm sorry, Chelsea Manning a question because the time ran out at that point.
[53:42.620 --> 53:43.760]  At the same time, all the talks end.
[53:44.120 --> 53:53.180]  You see, the very fact that somebody in a MAGA hat could be online to ask Chelsea Manning a question at one of our conferences, I think that's the magic that hope is.
[53:53.540 --> 53:59.920]  You know, if it, if it, if it had gone better after that point, that would have been even, even, you know, more amazing.
[53:59.920 --> 54:05.300]  Uh, the fact that we are open to this, um, but, uh, we do have our boundaries.
[54:05.440 --> 54:06.880]  We do have our lines that we don't cross.
[54:07.120 --> 54:09.060]  Uh, one other, I would have dealt with a guy pretty well.
[54:09.160 --> 54:10.140]  I think so.
[54:10.640 --> 54:11.920]  I think she would have.
[54:12.160 --> 54:13.120]  One other idea.
[54:13.440 --> 54:14.920]  Um, I might be alone in this.
[54:15.060 --> 54:26.480]  I, I haven't really, um, looked at some of our discussion yet, but basically, um, I think, uh, it's worth mentioning that our, um, our policies, um, may have gone too far, I think.
[54:26.640 --> 54:41.280]  And I've, I've never liked it, but I think our photo policy actually hamstrung us in, in some of these scenarios in that people who felt like they were being harassed or stalked were, um, also bound by this photo policy that sort of prevents them from taking pictures at will.
[54:41.340 --> 54:42.780]  And so I think we'll look at that.
[54:42.900 --> 54:45.680]  And in my opinion, I think we should waive that completely.
[54:45.920 --> 54:50.640]  Well, you know, uh, we do actually have, uh, at least one letter concerning exactly that.
[54:50.760 --> 54:53.000]  And unfortunately we don't have time to, uh, get into this.
[54:53.120 --> 54:53.940]  We're about to leave.
[54:53.940 --> 54:56.460]  It is very hard to document who is doing what.
[54:56.740 --> 55:01.400]  And, um, as far as deterring and documenting cameras are an excellent tool.
[55:01.540 --> 55:02.080]  Oh, absolutely.
[55:02.280 --> 55:02.560]  Absolutely.
[55:03.220 --> 55:14.200]  Um, but you know, I, I, I just, you know, I'd like to focus on a couple of the, uh, the positive things, for instance, the music we're listening to now by our friend, Dan to, uh, uh, you might've heard this music between talks.
[55:14.360 --> 55:16.620]  We, uh, played a variety of his pieces.
[55:16.960 --> 55:22.580]  Um, and also, uh, the internet society, the amazing streaming that they did to the entire world.
[55:23.160 --> 55:33.800]  And, uh, if you had seen talks and we're not at the hope conference, and there were many more of you that weren't at the conference than were at the conference, uh, you have, uh, internet society to thank for that.
[55:34.060 --> 55:44.460]  In fact, uh, I happen to know that, um, uh, they're going to be streaming the IGF USA, um, uh, forum, uh, internet, uh, governance forum this weekend from Washington, DC.
[55:44.680 --> 55:50.460]  You can go to IGF dash USA.org for more information on that, to see some of the other things that they do.
[55:51.160 --> 55:53.100]  Um, unfortunately though, that's it for us tonight.
[55:53.400 --> 55:55.080]  Uh, the conversation is not over.
[55:55.220 --> 56:00.800]  We're going to keep discussing this and, uh, getting feedback, input, criticism, whatever.
[56:01.080 --> 56:05.740]  Uh, we're open to it all and we hope to, um, do a better job next time.
[56:05.960 --> 56:16.940]  We hope to, uh, have videos available fairly soon and, uh, continue this conversation and keep fighting and not give up and have each other's backs.
[56:17.520 --> 56:18.540]  Have a good night.
[59:09.170 --> 59:19.910]  Hi, this is Christian McBride and you're listening to WBAI New York 99.5 FM and WBAI.org on the web.