[00:00.000 --> 00:02.240]  That's a wonderful, wonderful thing.
[00:02.420 --> 00:07.960]  This is commercial-free, listener-sponsored, community radio, WBAI.
[00:07.960 --> 00:17.800]  We're at 99.5 FM, and you can catch us all over planet Earth at WBAI.org.
[00:17.800 --> 00:23.040]  We're streaming 24 hours a day, thanks to listeners just like you.
[00:23.040 --> 00:28.320]  My goodness, you should be proud of yourself, just as proud as I am of you.
[00:29.440 --> 00:32.920]  516-620-3602.
[00:34.400 --> 00:36.480]  Yes, thanks to everybody who's calling in right now.
[00:36.580 --> 00:43.820]  In fact, some of you might be calling in for us, Off the Hook, because we are the next program that's on the air here at WBAI New York.
[00:44.060 --> 00:48.780]  It's 8 o'clock, and time for another action-packed edition of Off the Hook.
[00:57.010 --> 00:58.670]  Now I ripped it off the wall.
[00:59.690 --> 01:01.630]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:02.210 --> 01:04.110]  Now I can't make a call.
[01:04.970 --> 01:06.990]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:09.800 --> 01:12.420]  Bum-dilly-bump, but the best is back from worst.
[01:13.060 --> 01:14.940]  I hope that's understood.
[01:15.280 --> 01:16.020]  Bum-dilly-bump!
[02:02.980 --> 02:04.480]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:04.620 --> 02:05.440]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:05.540 --> 02:08.560]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:08.880 --> 02:09.440]  Hello.
[02:10.200 --> 02:10.980]  And Alex.
[02:11.300 --> 02:11.780]  Good evening.
[02:12.140 --> 02:13.500]  And Alex, congratulations are in order.
[02:14.340 --> 02:15.460]  Perhaps, that's right.
[02:15.640 --> 02:16.780]  You have a new offspring?
[02:17.060 --> 02:17.680]  I do indeed.
[02:17.920 --> 02:20.940]  It is amazing what you can make in three or four minutes.
[02:22.020 --> 02:28.820]  Okay, I'm not going to get into that, but a lot of congratulatory, you know, messages lately.
[02:29.080 --> 02:29.220]  I know.
[02:29.340 --> 02:30.940]  People getting married, people having kids.
[02:31.180 --> 02:31.380]  It's true.
[02:31.600 --> 02:32.060]  It is.
[02:32.120 --> 02:32.800]  It's amazing.
[02:33.080 --> 02:36.780]  That's why I wasn't on the air last week, because we just had a newborn baby.
[02:37.500 --> 02:41.520]  And I'm happy to report that he is extraordinarily healthy.
[02:41.720 --> 02:42.680]  He was pretty huge.
[02:42.820 --> 02:42.940]  Uh-huh.
[02:42.940 --> 02:43.980]  Eight pounds, ten ounces.
[02:44.460 --> 02:46.020]  And my wife is doing really well.
[02:46.160 --> 02:47.440]  We're just exhausted.
[02:47.580 --> 02:49.040]  Congratulations on getting married.
[02:49.360 --> 02:49.720]  Yes.
[02:50.080 --> 02:51.100]  Yes, I was...
[02:51.100 --> 02:53.540]  Finding a place in New York to live.
[02:53.820 --> 02:53.980]  Yeah.
[02:54.580 --> 02:55.500]  All these things.
[02:55.560 --> 02:59.080]  Anything else I might have left out over the years, congratulations on that.
[02:59.420 --> 02:59.800]  Yes.
[02:59.940 --> 03:01.080]  I graduated high school.
[03:01.440 --> 03:01.880]  Congratulations?
[03:02.200 --> 03:02.820]  You know, I wasn't sure.
[03:02.960 --> 03:03.980]  I didn't want to be rude and ask.
[03:03.980 --> 03:05.200]  Two years ago or so?
[03:05.320 --> 03:05.540]  Yeah.
[03:05.680 --> 03:06.400]  22 years ago.
[03:06.520 --> 03:06.960]  I think so.
[03:07.060 --> 03:07.180]  Sorry.
[03:07.500 --> 03:09.040]  I'm unforgivably late on that.
[03:09.240 --> 03:11.300]  I got 40 miles per gallon on the highway the other day.
[03:11.420 --> 03:13.320]  That's worthy of commendation, I think.
[03:13.380 --> 03:16.020]  I was getting 52 in my diesel.
[03:16.020 --> 03:19.340]  You know, Alex, you've always had this, you know, need to top me on everything.
[03:19.720 --> 03:20.820]  Well, you know, just saying.
[03:21.080 --> 03:24.300]  But it was on Kyle's recommendation that I bought the engine that I did.
[03:24.300 --> 03:26.500]  So I do have both of you to thank for that, really.
[03:26.600 --> 03:28.640]  And dropped it into a car, and now it's moving.
[03:28.720 --> 03:29.020]  Yes.
[03:29.360 --> 03:29.560]  Indeed.
[03:29.560 --> 03:29.800]  All right.
[03:29.940 --> 03:30.520]  Well, good, good.
[03:30.960 --> 03:40.520]  We're off to a flying start here tonight, and we have a lot to talk about, and kind of a skeleton crew, I guess, because everyone's out celebrating the hot, muggy weather.
[03:40.800 --> 03:40.940]  Yeah.
[03:41.160 --> 03:43.600]  And to go back to the baby thing, by the way.
[03:43.660 --> 03:43.860]  Sure.
[03:43.860 --> 03:44.840]  Let's go right back to that.
[03:44.960 --> 03:48.560]  By the way, this is the first announcement that we've made about this publicly.
[03:49.040 --> 03:52.500]  You know, usually you have this obligatory Facebook post that you need to do as soon as the baby.
[03:52.500 --> 03:55.320]  Oh, you were trying to stay under the radar, and I messed it up for you.
[03:55.320 --> 03:56.380]  No, it's okay.
[03:56.740 --> 04:00.560]  The kid's got to have a Facebook account now, and he'll be tweeting before you know it.
[04:00.720 --> 04:00.900]  Oh, my God.
[04:01.220 --> 04:02.040]  Don't remind me.
[04:02.140 --> 04:05.020]  But we didn't do this for the first time.
[04:05.140 --> 04:06.560]  Anyway, we've only had one other child.
[04:06.760 --> 04:10.100]  But we deliberately kept this all off of Facebook.
[04:10.100 --> 04:14.360]  So for a lot of my friends, this may be the first way that they're hearing about it, as a matter of fact.
[04:15.060 --> 04:16.360]  But with all this nonsense...
[04:16.360 --> 04:18.800]  Well, they must have known something was going to happen, though.
[04:18.940 --> 04:21.300]  You kind of didn't keep that secret for the last few months.
[04:21.300 --> 04:32.800]  Well, we also kept that a bit under wraps, except for the fact that my wife was... the fact that my wife was pregnant came out when somebody posted a picture of us in Italy, and it was readily apparent that she was pregnant.
[04:34.320 --> 04:41.420]  But we deliberately didn't post this on Facebook because of... why do we have to tell Facebook?
[04:41.560 --> 04:43.020]  Why do we have to announce this to Facebook?
[04:43.020 --> 04:45.340]  Yeah, I did ask you before the show if it's okay to talk about this.
[04:45.340 --> 04:47.180]  I did ask, just so everybody knows that.
[04:47.320 --> 04:47.900]  Yes, that's true.
[04:47.920 --> 04:49.160]  I'm not blowing your cover here.
[04:49.160 --> 04:49.980]  No, no, yeah.
[04:49.980 --> 04:54.180]  And I... but I think that the radio is a much more appropriate announcement for that than Facebook.
[04:54.180 --> 04:55.060]  Well, you know, it used to be.
[04:55.200 --> 05:02.400]  In the old days, you could keep something like this under wraps and, you know, I don't know why you would want to specifically, but you didn't have to tell the world.
[05:02.840 --> 05:11.560]  And with Facebook and with Twitter and with all these other social media outlets, it's very hard to keep news like the birth of a kid quiet or secret.
[05:11.700 --> 05:11.920]  Exactly.
[05:12.040 --> 05:18.660]  And you feel this compulsion or this obligation to post this up and let everybody know and comment on it and like it.
[05:18.760 --> 05:21.940]  And it gives you some sort of immediate gratification to see all of this.
[05:22.060 --> 05:23.900]  But we didn't do it this time.
[05:23.960 --> 05:26.040]  Well, your baby gets the most likes in the first week.
[05:26.120 --> 05:27.580]  And if you miss that first week...
[05:27.580 --> 05:27.840]  I know.
[05:28.180 --> 05:29.480]  You know, it kind of sets...
[05:29.480 --> 05:29.800]  It's true.
[05:30.000 --> 05:33.200]  It's a bad first step for the rest of its life.
[05:33.640 --> 05:34.260]  Well, that's true.
[05:34.320 --> 05:36.160]  But we're setting a different precedent now.
[05:36.500 --> 05:38.360]  We don't have to share this information with Facebook.
[05:38.500 --> 05:39.880]  They don't need to know about the birth of my child.
[05:39.880 --> 05:40.500]  Oh, they know.
[05:40.660 --> 05:41.280]  They know, Alex.
[05:41.440 --> 05:41.760]  They know.
[05:42.040 --> 05:43.360]  They probably do.
[05:43.620 --> 05:44.620]  They know more than you think they do.
[05:44.800 --> 05:45.860]  This is probably true.
[05:46.200 --> 05:49.860]  Good luck with all of that is basically all I'm going to say.
[05:49.940 --> 05:58.780]  And I would say to E that don't feel so bad because whatever mileage he's getting better is completely offset by the carbon footprint of this other child.
[05:58.960 --> 05:59.500]  Thank you.
[05:59.660 --> 06:00.620]  Thank you for that.
[06:00.740 --> 06:01.840]  That's what I needed to hear.
[06:02.020 --> 06:05.780]  Extra drag that another nine pounds is going to cause in the backseat.
[06:05.820 --> 06:06.840]  Oh, it's nine pounds now.
[06:06.840 --> 06:07.860]  Yes, nine pounds now.
[06:08.260 --> 06:09.740]  Yeah, it'll increase undoubtedly.
[06:10.040 --> 06:10.840]  If you keep feeding them.
[06:10.920 --> 06:13.840]  So we have a lot of other things to talk about tonight too, believe it or not.
[06:14.020 --> 06:17.860]  All sorts of developments in the world of technology.
[06:18.580 --> 06:19.500]  Some controversial.
[06:19.700 --> 06:20.620]  Actually, all controversial.
[06:20.880 --> 06:22.340]  Okay, let's just start with this.
[06:22.900 --> 06:27.400]  We know about net neutrality being repealed earlier.
[06:28.160 --> 06:28.560]  Challenged.
[06:28.920 --> 06:29.940]  Well, it's been repealed.
[06:30.140 --> 06:33.060]  I mean, it's pretty much dead at this point.
[06:33.060 --> 06:43.140]  Yeah, the Restore Internet Freedom Act, which had nothing to do with internet freedom, but the freedom to charge you for a fast and slow lane when it was passed.
[06:43.520 --> 06:44.120]  Right, right.
[06:44.440 --> 06:48.800]  Well, anyway, the FCC, as we know, repealed net neutrality rules earlier this year.
[06:49.080 --> 06:51.920]  Now, the Trump administration wants to go even further.
[06:52.600 --> 06:59.100]  Thursday, last Thursday, the Solicitor General requested that the Supreme Court vacate a 2016 ruling from the D.C.
[06:59.100 --> 07:11.400]  Circuit Court of Appeals that holds that the net neutrality rules enacted during the Obama years permissibly reclassify broadband as a telecommunications service subject to regulation under Title II of the Communications Act.
[07:12.300 --> 07:14.880]  So what does that mean, Alex, legally?
[07:15.060 --> 07:21.020]  They want to basically pretend, vacate this, pretend it never happened?
[07:21.020 --> 07:26.640]  Yeah, vacating means it is as if it didn't happen in the first place, right?
[07:26.640 --> 07:32.400]  So they are basically destroying the foundation of net neutrality, and even in the common law.
[07:32.540 --> 07:42.300]  So they passed a statute, the Restore Internet Freedom Act, and then there were these vestiges of net neutrality that existed in the common law, and they're asking the Supreme Court to take those out as well.
[07:43.400 --> 07:53.420]  And it's just part and parcel, I think, of the Trump administration trying to roll back anything and everything that the Obama administration did, regardless of whether or not it makes sense.
[07:54.300 --> 07:58.260]  Yeah, it's like perverse, the level of hatred.
[07:58.500 --> 08:02.480]  Like anything done pre-Trump doesn't, is like invalid.
[08:02.780 --> 08:09.300]  And it's so cringy, and like, it's just awful to watch anymore, because it's all about ego.
[08:09.820 --> 08:11.420]  Cringy, that's the word for this era.
[08:11.560 --> 08:13.300]  I'm looking for a word like cringy.
[08:13.440 --> 08:14.200]  Yes, that's it.
[08:14.200 --> 08:17.760]  Well, the interesting thing about this, they're asking for the decision of the D.C.
[08:17.880 --> 08:20.460]  Circuit to be reversed, right?
[08:20.460 --> 08:20.880]  Right, right.
[08:21.200 --> 08:26.220]  I believe John Kavanaugh, the Supreme Court nominee, comes from the D.C.
[08:26.340 --> 08:27.220]  Circuit as well.
[08:27.340 --> 08:30.580]  Or, I actually can't recall if he's federal district court, or if he was the circuit court.
[08:30.580 --> 08:31.100]  You might be right.
[08:31.200 --> 08:31.740]  I'm not sure.
[08:31.820 --> 08:34.080]  But I do know it was in that particular circuit.
[08:34.620 --> 08:37.380]  So, you know, it could be somewhat controversial.
[08:37.380 --> 08:39.540]  And also, it's important to note that the D.C.
[08:39.740 --> 08:44.440]  Circuit is one of the circuits in the United States that carries with it a tremendous amount of clout.
[08:44.620 --> 08:52.100]  And especially when it comes to the legal decisions that affect agencies' rights, you know, federal agencies.
[08:52.400 --> 08:59.520]  And they are literally the subject matter experts in the world when it comes to federal administrative law.
[08:59.720 --> 09:08.060]  So, asking the Supreme Court to overturn a decision that affects a federal agency and federal rulemaking processes that comes from the D.C.
[09:08.160 --> 09:09.900]  Circuit is a pretty tall ask.
[09:10.760 --> 09:23.620]  Well, so now, if this happens, if they are able to vacate this ruling, how does that affect future rollbacks, possible rollbacks to restoring net neutrality?
[09:23.800 --> 09:28.340]  You know, I'm not entirely sure, but I think it just makes everything a lot easier, right?
[09:28.420 --> 09:31.400]  There is no thorny common law that's going to stop this from proceeding.
[09:32.160 --> 09:37.580]  People will not be able to point to this particular decision that's on the books in the D.C.
[09:37.740 --> 09:37.900]  Circuit.
[09:37.900 --> 09:44.760]  They're only going to have the Restore Internet Freedom Act to look to when it comes to rules about net neutrality or the lack thereof.
[09:44.900 --> 09:53.560]  So, it will make... it will allow communications carriers to more easily roll out these particular plans without facing legal challenges.
[09:53.760 --> 09:54.840]  That's my guess on it.
[09:54.900 --> 10:04.000]  I actually haven't read the entire decision that they're asking to be vacated, but that's generally what happens when something is... We have a surprise guest here, Cheshire Catalyst.
[10:04.160 --> 10:04.360]  Welcome.
[10:04.820 --> 10:05.180]  Thank you.
[10:05.320 --> 10:14.280]  Well, I heard rumors that you were locked in your hotel room for the last two weeks, and apparently you just got out at the Hotel Pennsylvania.
[10:14.420 --> 10:14.840]  Is that what happened?
[10:15.160 --> 10:15.460]  No.
[10:15.700 --> 10:23.020]  I'm on a 30-day Amtrak rail pass, and after the conference, I went up to Rochester, New York, to my high school class, 50th reunion.
[10:23.860 --> 10:24.220]  Interesting.
[10:24.340 --> 10:25.860]  We just dropped a lot of information about yourself.
[10:26.000 --> 10:27.480]  Now I know you went to high school in Rochester.
[10:27.900 --> 10:28.000]  Yep.
[10:28.240 --> 10:31.240]  With that information, I can find out even more about your history.
[10:31.420 --> 10:31.440]  I bet you can.
[10:31.620 --> 10:33.420]  And he's either 67 or 68.
[10:33.680 --> 10:35.860]  Well, he could have been a prodigy, though.
[10:35.900 --> 10:36.940]  He could have graduated at nine.
[10:36.940 --> 10:37.400]  That's true.
[10:37.400 --> 10:38.920]  He doesn't look a day over 51.
[10:39.500 --> 10:40.000]  All right.
[10:40.000 --> 10:40.420]  All right.
[10:40.840 --> 10:42.680]  Hey, no cracks about the color of my hair.
[10:42.800 --> 10:44.520]  I live in Florida now, so it's sun bleached.
[10:45.300 --> 10:47.020]  That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
[10:47.020 --> 10:47.940]  Well, it's good to see you.
[10:48.060 --> 10:49.820]  First time I think I've seen you since the conference.
[10:49.820 --> 10:52.800]  Actually, I didn't see you much during the conference because we were just so busy.
[10:53.240 --> 10:53.600]  Absolutely.
[10:53.600 --> 10:53.680]  Absolutely.
[10:54.000 --> 10:54.260]  Wow.
[10:54.760 --> 10:57.520]  But I hope you had fun at your reunion.
[10:57.740 --> 10:58.220]  I did.
[10:58.400 --> 10:59.160]  Oh, it was great.
[10:59.220 --> 11:02.620]  Not only to see who was there, but to see who remembered me, and for what.
[11:04.720 --> 11:05.040]  Okay.
[11:05.040 --> 11:06.460]  I'm sure there are some stories there as well.
[11:06.480 --> 11:06.860]  There are.
[11:06.980 --> 11:08.040]  I'm not sure when I put that on the radio.
[11:08.220 --> 11:08.440]  Wow.
[11:09.400 --> 11:09.720]  Okay.
[11:09.760 --> 11:12.580]  Well, let's continue with the things we were discussing here.
[11:12.880 --> 11:14.700]  We were talking about the FCC, actually.
[11:15.340 --> 11:15.840]  Yes, Kyle.
[11:15.840 --> 11:16.100]  Yeah.
[11:16.280 --> 11:33.260]  Well, I felt like it just seemed like that what's happening is that also by taking these other precedents out of vacating them in this way, it sort of makes it an uphill battle to start over as far as introducing this.
[11:33.600 --> 11:45.020]  Were you to want net neutrality again, net neutrality again, you would not be able to refer to it in the same way that it's opening and taking away barriers at these lesser levels.
[11:45.280 --> 11:52.780]  It is also that much more of a difficult job to restore this in any way in the future, like going forward, because you won't be able to refer to it.
[11:52.980 --> 11:54.620]  That's a really excellent point.
[11:54.780 --> 11:55.440]  And you're right.
[11:55.540 --> 11:58.100]  I mean, it's like cracking at the foundation of net neutrality.
[11:58.540 --> 11:58.740]  Yes.
[11:59.220 --> 12:11.120]  They got it to the sort of pedestal or the, you know, as enshrined as it was in implementation before, it just reverts in as many ways.
[12:11.280 --> 12:11.600]  That's right.
[12:11.680 --> 12:19.140]  And, you know, I haven't read the brief, but I would imagine that the brief would say something like, well, Congress has enacted, and this is a legislative pronouncement.
[12:19.140 --> 12:26.340]  And now you can vacate this prior decision because there's, because, you know, essentially, the check on the court is Congress.
[12:26.580 --> 12:28.300]  So it's a series of checks and balance.
[12:28.440 --> 12:37.500]  Could that even be used as argument or precedent against saying, say, like, look, this was, this was taken apart, this was vacated, this was removed, and once upon a time.
[12:37.660 --> 12:48.660]  So why on earth would we try to, it would be foolish to go in this path again, which really kind of closes the, the, the door on it, you know, as this has been gutted.
[12:48.780 --> 12:49.340]  Oh, no doubt.
[12:49.460 --> 12:53.020]  It will make it much more difficult for anybody raising these particular types of challenges.
[12:53.180 --> 12:57.260]  They'll have to come up with other sort of rationales and pathways.
[12:57.600 --> 13:04.180]  Well, if the day of sanity comes, you know, down, down the road a little bit, I imagine there'll be a lot of this reconstruction happening.
[13:04.480 --> 13:07.840]  And, um, uh, this, this will be just, uh, another challenge.
[13:08.220 --> 13:15.340]  Uh, but sticking with the FCC for a moment, um, uh, you guys remember, um, that they, uh, reported they were hacked.
[13:15.480 --> 13:21.460]  Their comment system, uh, was hacked, um, during this whole net neutrality, uh, discussion.
[13:22.060 --> 13:23.660]  Well, it turns out that never happened.
[13:23.780 --> 13:37.100]  In fact, you know, a lot of us doubted that from, from the start, but they've come clean on the fact that a purported hack of its comment system last year never actually took place after a report from the, uh, its own inspector general found a lack of evidence supporting the idea.
[13:37.520 --> 13:51.300]  But that doesn't mean that it still can't be blamed on Obama because Chairman Ajit Pai blamed the former chief information officer and the Obama administration for providing inaccurate information about this incident to me, my office, Congress, and the American people.
[13:51.440 --> 13:58.900]  The semi-apology and finger pointing are a disappointing conclusion to the year-long web of obfuscation that the FCC has woven.
[13:59.880 --> 14:01.280]  Yes, from TechCrunch.
[14:01.400 --> 14:11.960]  Since the first moment it was reported that there was a hack of the system, there have been questions about the nature, scale, and response to it that the FCC has avoided, even under direct congressional questioning.
[14:12.220 --> 14:18.200]  It's just incredible to me how, how dishonest, how obviously dishonest these people are.
[14:18.420 --> 14:21.200]  And it doesn't matter once they're caught, they just continue.
[14:21.200 --> 14:22.800]  Well, they'll just keep this going.
[14:23.080 --> 14:34.100]  And, you know, I read this article as well, and it just seems strange to me that the comment system itself was, was overwhelmed, but we don't know necessarily by what it was overwhelmed, right?
[14:34.220 --> 14:50.980]  Was it, was it comments that were in favor of net neutrality, or was it the astroturfing that occurred, uh, using Americans as, uh, personal information and identities to make these bogus claims that they were, uh, opponents of net neutrality and in favor of the,
[14:50.980 --> 14:53.100]  uh, restore internet freedom act.
[14:53.240 --> 15:12.380]  Um, and if that was the case, if it was the case that it was the astroturfing that overwhelmed the system, I think that could frankly be considered some form of attack because they exploited a vulnerability in the system, namely a vulnerability that allowed the exploitation of the personal identifying information of Americans to be used in this particular manner,
[15:12.380 --> 15:18.440]  and then overwhelmed the system in a way that ordinary people that were in favor of net neutrality couldn't use it.
[15:18.440 --> 15:28.680]  Yeah, you could say that Alex, and I, I think that's a good possibility, but also it's a possibility that there are so many people arguing in favor of preserving net neutrality that they overwhelmed the system.
[15:28.920 --> 15:29.060]  Exactly.
[15:29.280 --> 15:31.640]  And that's considered an attack by the Trump administration.
[15:32.000 --> 15:34.340]  People expressing their opinions on something.
[15:34.500 --> 15:46.260]  No, literally, if you look at how they react to anybody expressing their opinions when it doesn't align with theirs, it's, it's, it's a, it's an attack, you know, and it's something that, uh, that, that, that needs to be stopped.
[15:46.400 --> 15:47.700]  So that's how they dealt with it.
[15:47.840 --> 15:48.620]  I'm sorry, Cheshire, you had something?
[15:48.760 --> 15:49.160]  Yes, you're right.
[15:49.180 --> 15:52.840]  If it's not, our opinion is promulgated by Fox, then it's not an informed decision.
[15:53.200 --> 15:54.740]  No, that's, that's the way they look at it.
[15:54.780 --> 15:56.040]  That's pretty much how they do look at it.
[15:56.700 --> 15:57.400]  Um, okay.
[15:57.860 --> 15:59.600]  Um, there's, there's some good news.
[15:59.700 --> 16:08.760]  There's some good news here, uh, where, uh, basically, um, something, an injustice is being, is being corrected, uh, to a degree anyway.
[16:09.140 --> 16:14.620]  Uh, people who end up in jail in New York City will now be able to use the phone lines there for free.
[16:15.060 --> 16:25.900]  After Mayor Bill de Blasio signed a law, a bill into law on Monday that will eliminate the charge, uh, city had been collecting about $5 million per year from calls made by incarcerated people and their families.
[16:26.060 --> 16:41.280]  Uh, the, uh, billion dollar prison phone industry has drawn increased scrutiny in recent years and moved by New York City as part of a nationwide push from prison rights groups, uh, public defenders, and the families of those who are incarcerated to limit private companies from profiting off incarceration.
[16:41.500 --> 16:50.600]  Uh, the, um, city has been profiting from some of the poorest and most vulnerable New Yorkers for years, said, uh, Corey Johnson, the city council speaker and sponsor of the bill.
[16:51.020 --> 16:53.800]  Thankfully that is now going to stop.
[16:54.020 --> 17:01.200]  Now, interestingly, uh, calls from Rikers Island cost 50 cents for the first minute, five cents for each additional minute to local numbers.
[17:01.380 --> 17:10.260]  Uh, and that adds up, but it's nothing compared to what happens in, in, in some prisons where it's, it's a dollar a minute in many cases or more.
[17:10.780 --> 17:12.480]  Uh, so, uh, this is great.
[17:12.600 --> 17:22.180]  This is good to see, but, um, the, the rate of calls, uh, the, the, the, the permanent charge there is, is nothing compared to things I've seen over the years.
[17:22.460 --> 17:23.840]  It's, it's really terrible.
[17:24.120 --> 17:33.520]  And they are, these institutions are now even charging for things like these, uh, kind of Skype visits that are occurring between family members.
[17:33.660 --> 17:37.480]  Some prisons don't actually let you have in-person visitation.
[17:37.660 --> 17:37.660]  Yeah.
[17:37.660 --> 17:39.020]  You have to, you have to visit by Skype.
[17:39.240 --> 17:43.480]  You have to visit via Skype and video chat or whatever, whatever the hell they're using for that.
[17:43.680 --> 17:45.680]  And then there's a charge for that as well.
[17:45.780 --> 17:52.200]  I mean, all of this is just so unconscionable, which wouldn't ordinarily be assessed as a per call or duration rate.
[17:52.300 --> 17:52.660]  Absolutely.
[17:53.160 --> 17:54.060]  Skype has never been that way.
[17:54.120 --> 17:55.340]  It's just data, right?
[17:55.480 --> 18:00.680]  I mean, for God's sakes, I mean, what, what's interesting to me is it's $5 million a year to the city, right?
[18:00.700 --> 18:06.000]  I mean, that's like half an hour worth of parking tickets on any weekend, you know, before 7 PM in the city.
[18:06.700 --> 18:10.940]  But, you know, this is really impacted people's lives in a really measurable way.
[18:11.180 --> 18:13.580]  And you know, who was charging, you know, how much they paid.
[18:13.580 --> 18:15.100]  I would love to see this go a step further.
[18:15.220 --> 18:19.000]  And I would like to see restitution made to the people who paid these exorbitant charges.
[18:19.400 --> 18:19.800]  Yeah.
[18:20.000 --> 18:25.880]  And, uh, you know, keep in mind, uh, you might justify this in your mind saying you're punishing the criminal.
[18:26.020 --> 18:34.040]  You're not punishing anybody except the families of the people that are trying to communicate because they're obviously the ones who pay these ridiculous fees.
[18:34.400 --> 18:34.600]  Absolutely.
[18:34.760 --> 18:40.220]  And this, this feeling of isolation, not being able to talk to them because you know, it's going to be coming out of their pocket.
[18:40.340 --> 18:43.600]  It's going to affect the amount of food that your family can put on the table.
[18:44.100 --> 18:46.880]  That's just going to lead to further recidivism in the city.
[18:47.020 --> 18:49.680]  I mean, it's just, it's a lose, lose situation for everybody.
[18:50.000 --> 18:55.360]  And the meager amount of money that the city makes per year, $5 million a year is just not worth it.
[18:55.360 --> 19:01.140]  I, I, I debate the lose, lose thing though, because recidivism is, is actually something that they want.
[19:01.440 --> 19:04.540]  Certainly, certainly, um, uh, corporate prisons want this.
[19:04.680 --> 19:06.220]  They want people back in the system.
[19:06.440 --> 19:06.560]  Oh, sure.
[19:06.560 --> 19:06.680]  Uh, yeah.
[19:06.820 --> 19:08.920]  Lose, lose for the, for the inmate and the family.
[19:08.960 --> 19:09.600]  Yes, absolutely.
[19:09.940 --> 19:13.300]  Not necessarily the, the private corporation that's running the institution.
[19:13.560 --> 19:25.800]  Hey, some more news here, um, on July 27th, uh, sticking with the happy theme, uh, July 27th, the National Park Service approved the historic Wardenclyffe property in Shoreham, New York, for inclusion on the National Historic Register.
[19:26.120 --> 19:31.600]  As, as we know, Wardenclyffe, uh, is, uh, the site of the Tesla Science Center.
[19:32.080 --> 19:43.300]  Um, and that's, uh, a nonprofit organization dedicated to preserving and renovating the 16 acre site, which contains a brick laboratory and tower base built by inventor and humanitarian Nikola Tesla.
[19:43.580 --> 19:55.120]  Uh, Wardenclyffe's application for inclusion on the state and national historic registers received the record number of endorsements over 9,500 within the week just prior to review by the New York State Division of Historic Preservation.
[19:55.360 --> 20:15.140]  They voted unanimously to recommend Wardenclyffe for nomination, uh, and, uh, basically, uh, according to their executive director, listing on the National Historic Register not only helps preserve Nikola Tesla's last remaining laboratory, but it allows us to move forward with renovations and plans to develop Wardenclyffe into a world-class science and innovation center.
[20:15.360 --> 20:21.000]  Um, the, uh, NHR listing also opens doors for funding as many grants require official historic status.
[20:21.200 --> 20:23.440]  Now, Kyle, we were over there during, uh, their anniversary recently.
[20:23.920 --> 20:26.020]  Yeah, I, I would go, I would go on and on.
[20:26.100 --> 20:38.380]  I'll just keep it brief, but, uh, the, the, the town actually, uh, in the area, I think Corum or, uh, nearby Brookhaven, uh, the, the larger area, uh, had notified her, had recognized us and has a sign hanging there.
[20:38.560 --> 20:44.980]  There's also a monument there from the people I think of Serbia, um, and many other parts of the place.
[20:45.160 --> 20:52.560]  Um, just the progress that the, uh, organization that has taken over, um, that they're doing as far as developing a museum.
[20:52.560 --> 21:08.940]  They've, they've, um, uh, restored some of the iron work and they had some of that, uh, on display and, uh, they've participated with media and done, uh, TV shows and things and, uh, done some sort of, uh, excavating and looking at some of the underground elements and,
[21:08.940 --> 21:10.080]  and talked about that on TV.
[21:10.220 --> 21:14.100]  Done a really great job, uh, promoting and, and sharing about it.
[21:14.220 --> 21:17.320]  We've, um, had them, they, uh, were at hope as well.
[21:17.460 --> 21:23.600]  So it's, uh, they're a real, um, a great organization that, that wants to fully restore the area.
[21:23.820 --> 21:36.380]  Uh, of course, they had buildings that had been, uh, produced after it was a laboratory that, um, they've also recently removed, um, to, uh, restore it to its true, uh, original status.
[21:36.540 --> 21:38.040]  So they're, they're doing this meticulously.
[21:38.320 --> 21:58.440]  Uh, they had a, as you said, a small fundraiser out there and, uh, there's just such enthusiasm and, uh, I guess a cool factor that is exciting and really great to see, uh, for a really deserving, um, uh, property and organization that, that, that wants to promote science and teach much more about this place.
[21:58.620 --> 22:00.680]  So it is an incredible space, a lot of honors.
[22:00.800 --> 22:04.800]  And this, as you said, um, this is an even higher honor.
[22:05.000 --> 22:09.580]  Uh, now the town is backed up by a national, uh, uh, uh, recognition.
[22:09.980 --> 22:13.580]  And this, as you said, probably helps a lot with their plans to restore it.
[22:13.600 --> 22:25.320]  As far as getting contractors and all of that, it's much different when you're an historic, uh, entity versus just a private, uh, little, uh, uh, uh, uh, nonprofit trying to get some work done.
[22:25.640 --> 22:35.920]  This will probably, um, allow for some outstanding work and actual classrooms and places that, uh, students can go back in time and, and experience the lab.
[22:35.920 --> 22:45.760]  I was amazed at, at the, um, at the celebration a month or so ago, how many people were there, how many kids were there, uh, learning about Tesla or, or teaching about Tesla.
[22:45.880 --> 22:48.860]  A lot of kids were actually telling other people what Tesla was all about.
[22:49.020 --> 22:50.100]  And that's just amazing to see.
[22:50.320 --> 22:55.360]  Uh, you can get more information, uh, going to teslasciencecenter.org.
[22:55.700 --> 22:59.420]  That's T-E-S-L-A, uh, teslasciencecenter.org.
[22:59.560 --> 22:59.780]  Alex.
[22:59.960 --> 23:02.880]  I mean, 9,500 comments on this.
[23:02.980 --> 23:03.680]  That's pretty amazing.
[23:03.680 --> 23:04.860]  It didn't crash their system.
[23:05.020 --> 23:05.400]  It didn't crash.
[23:05.540 --> 23:05.800]  It did it.
[23:05.860 --> 23:06.820]  I was just about this.
[23:06.900 --> 23:16.720]  Did this overwhelm the system to the point of classifying these comments as a DDoS attack, but, uh, you know, failing into some incident response scenario by the national historic register of buildings?
[23:16.920 --> 23:17.580]  It's true.
[23:17.740 --> 23:29.280]  I mean, the popularity and the attraction, it's weird and kind of beautiful how the, uh, support and energy for this company, uh, everyone wants to acknowledge a connection to Tesla.
[23:29.620 --> 23:40.700]  And even I think the power, local power company was advertising parts of their grid that used stuff that was patented at one point that everybody's reaching for as much connection to Tesla as possible, but it's great.
[23:40.820 --> 23:41.380]  It's cool to see.
[23:41.540 --> 23:43.960]  I had no idea that this existed over there.
[23:44.040 --> 23:44.960]  I mean, I grew up in Long Island.
[23:45.080 --> 23:46.920]  I mean, I couldn't hear properly.
[23:47.040 --> 23:48.580]  It was at Shoram or was it Corum?
[23:48.680 --> 23:49.200]  It was Shoram.
[23:49.300 --> 23:49.740]  It was Shoram.
[23:49.800 --> 23:50.620]  Oh, I said Corum.
[23:50.740 --> 23:52.360]  I, I, I get the cities wrong.
[23:52.520 --> 23:55.900]  So Shoram, Wading River, you know, and there aren't, there aren't cities out there anyway.
[23:55.900 --> 23:56.620]  Yeah, that's true.
[23:56.860 --> 23:57.720]  That's a good point.
[23:57.980 --> 23:58.820]  Oh, we're going to get letters now.
[23:59.120 --> 24:02.240]  Tiny towns connected by strip malls.
[24:02.480 --> 24:14.040]  And, um, yeah, Shoram used to be known for the, uh, for the, uh, ill-fated Shoram nuclear power plant, but now it's known for this, you know, it's a technology of a different sort, but it's, it's a true, I think, historic reference, uh, name is Wardenclyffe.
[24:14.240 --> 24:14.440]  Yes.
[24:14.560 --> 24:18.740]  But the people of Long Island really mobilized against that nuclear power plant back in the nineties.
[24:18.960 --> 24:21.020]  Uh, back in the seventies, try seven.
[24:21.380 --> 24:21.840]  Yeah, absolutely.
[24:22.280 --> 24:22.480]  Yeah.
[24:22.720 --> 24:26.060]  That was one of the first things I ever got involved in actually in, in high school.
[24:26.220 --> 24:32.460]  I was, I was one of the people that, uh, uh, uh, scaled the fence and, uh, and, and was a part of, uh, the demonstrations against that.
[24:32.540 --> 24:34.940]  So yeah, I've got a good track record of one.
[24:35.100 --> 24:39.140]  Um, no, I've, I've done other things too, but, uh, it was, it was a good way to get involved.
[24:39.320 --> 24:42.840]  And, uh, a lot of positivity came out of that and you can still see the building.
[24:42.980 --> 24:43.520]  It's still there.
[24:44.260 --> 24:45.540]  They're dismantling it slowly.
[24:45.680 --> 24:49.060]  Hey, if it's a worthy building, we'll come by, we'll help you restore it, all that.
[24:49.220 --> 24:51.960]  If it's not, we'll come by and shut your nuclear power plant down.
[24:52.100 --> 24:52.600]  It's fine.
[24:52.600 --> 24:53.020]  That's fair.
[24:53.300 --> 24:54.080]  Anybody can get it.
[24:54.320 --> 24:59.980]  We're equal opportunity, whatever, you know, whatever the scenario we will, we will match it and, uh, and provide these services.
[25:00.280 --> 25:00.400]  Yeah.
[25:00.480 --> 25:04.200]  And you know, they wanted to build another one out in, in Jamesport in Suffolk County as well.
[25:04.380 --> 25:07.780]  Uh, and that, that got, uh, rejected before they started building it.
[25:08.000 --> 25:13.580]  But not only that, they wanted to, uh, you know, they do one right across the water, uh, want to do one.
[25:13.720 --> 25:14.700]  Well, they've done it in Connecticut.
[25:14.900 --> 25:15.260]  Okay.
[25:15.460 --> 25:15.560]  Okay.
[25:15.640 --> 25:24.100]  But, uh, they wanted to build, um, uh, for those of you in Queens, you know, the, the, the smokestacks by the, uh, at Queensborough bridge, they wanted to convert that to a nuclear power plant.
[25:24.200 --> 25:28.780]  That just shows you how, how ill fated some of these ideas are.
[25:28.980 --> 25:36.980]  Uh, if, if you simply believe authority figures and, and people who claim to know about technology, uh, sometimes they will lead you down a very bad path.
[25:37.080 --> 25:40.220]  And can you imagine that being a nuclear power plant right smack next to New York City?
[25:40.380 --> 25:41.140]  That was the plan.
[25:41.560 --> 25:44.000]  And, uh, fortunately that, uh, did not go through.
[25:44.420 --> 25:44.500]  A conversion.
[25:44.500 --> 25:45.680]  It wasn't a new facility.
[25:45.800 --> 25:46.540]  It was a conversion.
[25:46.540 --> 25:46.860]  Yeah.
[25:47.040 --> 25:48.800]  I'm pretty sure I have, I have the facts right.
[25:48.920 --> 25:55.960]  If, if any of that is incorrect, I, I know our listeners will write in and tell us, but anyway, uh, we have other things to talk about, including the, the elephant in the room.
[25:56.460 --> 25:59.660]  Uh, and, uh, um, that is Alex Jones.
[26:00.200 --> 26:01.580]  Um, no, he, okay.
[26:01.720 --> 26:01.980]  Wait a minute.
[26:02.400 --> 26:03.340]  Uh, Alex Jones is not in the room.
[26:04.040 --> 26:09.300]  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, please turn that down.
[26:09.440 --> 26:10.040]  Turn that off.
[26:10.180 --> 26:10.260]  No.
[26:10.600 --> 26:14.800]  Uh, uh, and there's no elephant in the room, although that would be a much more easy thing to handle.
[26:15.160 --> 26:26.040]  Uh, but, uh, this week, uh, Alex Jones was kicked off of Facebook and you would think it was the overthrow of a government, the, the reaction that you're seeing, uh, from various camps.
[26:26.600 --> 26:30.720]  Um, and, uh, uh, to me, you know, I just, I don't know what all the fuss is about.
[26:30.880 --> 26:33.740]  This guy has been spewing all kinds of hateful rhetoric over the years.
[26:34.180 --> 26:38.740]  Uh, how did it take so long for, for a company to realize this is toxic?
[26:38.880 --> 26:41.820]  This is something that we don't want to be affiliated with that we don't need.
[26:41.960 --> 26:44.500]  And we have every right to, to kick this guy off.
[26:44.720 --> 26:46.300]  Uh, what do you think, Alex?
[26:46.540 --> 26:48.640]  I don't necessarily agree with that, frankly.
[26:48.840 --> 26:52.140]  I mean, I, I do think that he's toxic.
[26:52.140 --> 26:53.540]  I think he's conspiratorial.
[26:53.640 --> 26:57.960]  I think that he incites people to violence, but any, any, I think he's a lunatic, frankly.
[26:58.640 --> 27:06.660]  Um, but I don't think that every single statement that comes out of his mouth necessarily is an incitement to violence or...
[27:06.660 --> 27:09.660]  No, he orders coffee in the morning, and I'm pretty sure that's unobjectionable.
[27:10.000 --> 27:10.240]  That's true.
[27:10.240 --> 27:18.480]  And he can continue to do that, I presume, without being on a podcast, but I don't necessarily agree with the wholesale censorship of somebody whose views we don't.
[27:18.580 --> 27:19.020]  Okay.
[27:19.140 --> 27:20.780]  Let me, let me stop you right there.
[27:21.400 --> 27:26.300]  Is it censorship with Facebook to say we don't want you on our site?
[27:26.800 --> 27:31.700]  I mean, to me, censorship is when the government arrests you for, for saying something unpopular.
[27:31.860 --> 27:32.000]  Sure.
[27:32.020 --> 27:36.560]  A company, you know, if we don't print an article in 2600 magazine, is that censorship?
[27:36.840 --> 27:38.920]  If we edit an article, is that censorship?
[27:39.080 --> 27:43.760]  If we don't pick up the phone when someone's calling in and put them on the radio now, are we censoring them?
[27:43.940 --> 27:47.840]  Well, it would go to the intention you have behind denying that article.
[27:47.840 --> 27:53.360]  Is it because you don't agree with the particular viewpoints of the article, or is it just you don't have space?
[27:53.920 --> 27:56.080]  Because bandwidth is not an issue for Facebook.
[27:56.320 --> 28:00.980]  Bandwidth isn't an issue for YouTube and Spotify as well.
[28:01.260 --> 28:03.520]  Bandwidth is not an issue for these particular platforms.
[28:03.540 --> 28:06.640]  In a print magazine like 2600, you can have that legitimate excuse.
[28:06.980 --> 28:25.580]  However, I think that, excuse me, it is dangerous to not call this censorship and to say that censorship is done only by the government because any kind of viewpoint discrimination is censorship, whether it's done by a private actor or the government just determines whether or not it's legally actionable.
[28:25.920 --> 28:28.860]  If the government censors you, then you have a First Amendment claim.
[28:28.980 --> 28:32.500]  If Facebook censors you, you don't have necessarily a First Amendment claim.
[28:33.180 --> 28:39.320]  You know, there have been rulings recently establishing that Twitter is a sort of public forum these days.
[28:39.560 --> 28:45.220]  So censorship by Twitter might give rise to some sort of First Amendment related claim.
[28:45.520 --> 28:55.780]  But I think it's a very, and I do hate this word, it's a slippery slope that we're going down when we engage in viewpoint discrimination because we don't necessarily agree with this.
[28:55.780 --> 28:57.100]  Alex, this is more than just a viewpoint.
[28:57.340 --> 28:59.620]  This is spreading things that are...
[28:59.620 --> 29:00.240]  I agree with that.
[29:00.580 --> 29:05.920]  ...that are quite obviously false and designed to foster hatred and fear.
[29:06.300 --> 29:11.120]  I mean, you know, saying that the shooting of the kids in Connecticut is fake.
[29:11.660 --> 29:15.120]  I mean, how is that something that we consider a viewpoint?
[29:15.320 --> 29:15.960]  It's insane.
[29:16.440 --> 29:17.260]  Holocaust denial.
[29:17.360 --> 29:21.440]  Are we saying Holocaust denial is something that is acceptable, an acceptable viewpoint?
[29:21.440 --> 29:22.140]  Absolutely not.
[29:22.140 --> 29:24.660]  Didn't he, like, sue some of the Sandy Hook parents?
[29:24.660 --> 29:25.720]  Or did they sue him?
[29:26.100 --> 29:26.580]  Yeah, they...
[29:26.580 --> 29:27.880]  Hopefully they kicked his ass.
[29:28.260 --> 29:28.740]  I hope they...
[29:28.740 --> 29:28.980]  Yeah.
[29:29.700 --> 29:31.920]  I don't know what they got into, one way or the other.
[29:32.080 --> 29:33.820]  But I think there is something to that.
[29:34.300 --> 29:48.320]  The fact that the reason this hadn't been sort of policed and or him otherwise disinvited from these platforms before is for the same reason he was, is that these entities were scared of his audience.
[29:48.640 --> 29:49.740]  And now they're scared.
[29:49.880 --> 29:51.900]  They're just scared for different reasons now.
[29:52.120 --> 29:58.600]  Like, okay, yeah, they are crazy enough and actually could do harm were he to trigger them and incite something.
[29:58.820 --> 30:16.960]  And the same reason before that they weren't policing was, I think, equally like from this... stemming from this fear of his audience that it would fulfill and validate a narrative that he's, you know, oppressed by the state and all of this stuff and not being allowed a platform.
[30:17.100 --> 30:18.240]  Well, here he was given one.
[30:18.360 --> 30:29.800]  And we're, we're finding ourselves in times where, you know, we don't need more stupidity and like, you know, uh, rage and hate out there.
[30:29.900 --> 30:30.480]  There's enough.
[30:30.740 --> 30:33.960]  Actually, the market is quite healthy in that department.
[30:33.960 --> 30:41.280]  If you consider that discourse, healthy, it's more than just stupidity because there's a lot of stupid, uh, comments made all the time and, and that's fine.
[30:41.340 --> 30:42.040]  Not a big deal.
[30:42.160 --> 30:44.120]  But when, you know, he's not stupid.
[30:44.240 --> 30:46.300]  That's, that's the thing that, that worries me.
[30:46.480 --> 30:54.500]  He knows exactly what he's doing and he knows how to steer people into a certain direction and, and, and provoke them and, and, and manipulate them.
[30:54.880 --> 30:56.180]  And that's what's dangerous here.
[30:56.220 --> 31:03.940]  And I think it's far more dangerous to just allow that to go unimpeded and, and, and grow to the state it's grown to now than to say, you know what?
[31:04.120 --> 31:05.540]  Uh, you don't meet our standards.
[31:05.540 --> 31:06.760]  Go find another platform.
[31:06.900 --> 31:07.420]  And that's the thing.
[31:07.500 --> 31:08.960]  He can find another platform.
[31:08.960 --> 31:10.620]  He can put up his own damn website.
[31:10.800 --> 31:12.700]  Nobody is saying he's not allowed to do this.
[31:13.060 --> 31:19.960]  Facebook and whatever other companies decided to, uh, to, to boot him, have every right to say who gets to use their system and who does not.
[31:20.260 --> 31:21.480]  Two points to that.
[31:21.720 --> 31:30.000]  And I, and I, I do think his speech is dangerous and I think it's abhorrent and, and it's an incitement to violence and it's so incredibly idiotic, right?
[31:30.640 --> 31:52.340]  Uh, I, it doesn't have a place in my life, but we, if we're worried about a lack of reason here, if we're worried about the atrophy of our mental abilities to detect this kind of nonsense, this BS, then we should not be censoring this or allowing another party to determine what is heard and what is not heard on these particular platforms,
[31:52.340 --> 31:57.000]  because the way that you eradicate this kind of BS is not through censorship, but through reason.
[31:57.220 --> 32:01.540]  You see it, you identify it, you call it out or you ignore it.
[32:01.540 --> 32:03.940]  How's that working out for you in the Trump era?
[32:04.420 --> 32:06.140]  It's working out perfectly fine for me.
[32:06.200 --> 32:06.520]  Is it?
[32:06.660 --> 32:07.060]  Absolutely.
[32:07.460 --> 32:13.640]  Because I don't think, I don't think just, uh, you know, uh, a calmly shutting people down is having any effect at all.
[32:13.780 --> 32:24.500]  I think empowering people like Alex Jones to have this massive audience where they can, they can, uh, spread false news and make people react to things that aren't happening and not react to things that are happening.
[32:24.800 --> 32:34.760]  That is how you wind up in a situation where immigrants are feared and, and racism is prevalent, uh, because nobody stopped it when they had the chance.
[32:34.920 --> 32:39.220]  It's got nothing to do with speech because you can say whatever you want on the, on the corner.
[32:39.380 --> 32:43.580]  You can put out your own newspaper when the government steps in and says, you're not allowed to do this.
[32:43.680 --> 32:54.300]  Yeah, I will object to that, but I do not object to, uh, uh, any company or any, any outfit or any, uh, any internet service saying this does not meet our standards and we don't want any part of it.
[32:54.300 --> 33:01.060]  I, I do though, because I, I think that when you censor these people, and again, two points, I'll make the, the prior point that I wasn't able to make.
[33:01.360 --> 33:15.260]  Uh, but when you censor these people, and I think you've made this point in particular, when you censor them, you empower them and building on what you had just said earlier, they can just move on to another platform when they're empowered, when they're censored.
[33:15.680 --> 33:17.020]  Look, he's all over the news.
[33:17.140 --> 33:18.180]  We're talking about him now.
[33:18.300 --> 33:25.820]  He's gaining more notoriety for these idiotic things that he says, and he's going to go to another platform and he's going to have a greater audience because he was censored.
[33:25.960 --> 33:41.220]  And what I think is extraordinarily dangerous here is not only that, these outlets are determining what we can hear and what we cannot hear because of their terms of service and, and a putative violation of it, but that they were lobbying for the removal of this particular content.
[33:41.800 --> 33:53.400]  And, you know, an outlet for which I've written in the past, in particular, CNN, I've read in various reports, was very much in favor of the removal of Infowars from these particular platforms.
[33:53.400 --> 34:00.020]  And I think that that is dangerous in another level because it further polarizes the population.
[34:00.140 --> 34:07.800]  If we're not going to have this discourse, this back and forth, that was what the First Amendment was designed to encourage, even if it's abhorrent.
[34:08.320 --> 34:09.960]  This back and forth is necessary for democracy.
[34:09.960 --> 34:10.300]  But where's the back and forth?
[34:10.460 --> 34:11.380]  Where's the dialogue?
[34:11.520 --> 34:12.560]  I'm not seeing the dialogue.
[34:14.160 --> 34:15.640]  That's a good point, frankly.
[34:15.900 --> 34:18.720]  But, you know, it definitely seems like a one-way street.
[34:18.760 --> 34:23.280]  But the fact that he can exist and there can be dialogue is why the First Amendment exists.
[34:23.460 --> 34:25.200]  There doesn't necessarily have to be.
[34:25.560 --> 34:37.860]  But once we go down this pathway of allowing others to determine what we should and should not hear on the basis of viewpoint, we are contributing to the echo chambers that we decry constantly on this show.
[34:38.120 --> 34:45.040]  Okay, but, you know, you can't just have, say, you know, a Nazi site be linked to on Facebook.
[34:45.240 --> 34:47.540]  They have rules and regulations.
[34:47.760 --> 34:49.640]  Who is acceptable?
[34:49.640 --> 34:50.100]  Who is not?
[34:50.100 --> 34:56.480]  What kinds of calls to action and what kinds of speech violate their terms of service?
[34:56.980 --> 35:00.700]  So how is it okay in one regard, but not in another?
[35:01.800 --> 35:07.440]  I feel like we're having the same conversation we had two weeks ago, except you're on the other side of the point now.
[35:07.640 --> 35:07.640]  Yeah, but that's the thing.
[35:07.640 --> 35:13.680]  I'm seeing people that are saying that, yeah, we should kick anybody out that has, you know, a MAGA hat on.
[35:13.920 --> 35:17.640]  But at the same time, they're the same people objecting to kicking Alex Jones off of Facebook.
[35:17.840 --> 35:19.340]  You can't have it both ways.
[35:19.520 --> 35:27.120]  You know, I think we're being kind of, you know, consistent here in saying that an unpopular opinion is one thing.
[35:27.240 --> 35:29.020]  This goes beyond an unpopular opinion.
[35:29.260 --> 35:36.900]  This is spreading, deliberately spreading false information and calling for, for, for all kinds of, of violent reactions.
[35:37.600 --> 35:42.880]  And, and basically, uh, it's, it's worlds of difference.
[35:43.200 --> 35:59.680]  But there's a lot of crossover between the things that Alex Jones posts and, uh, you know, people who have a very liberal bent to the point of being kind of libertarian as well, is once you go full scale around the political spectrum, liberalism begins to look like libertarianism.
[35:59.840 --> 36:15.040]  And, you know, that's where you get states like Vermont, but a case in point about why I think Infowars should not be censored, and this is sort of personal to me, is because, uh, just under three years ago, I wrote an article for The Intercept.
[36:15.200 --> 36:22.080]  And it was about the, uh, AT&T-NSA partnership, uh, that was front page news with the New York Times.
[36:22.200 --> 36:26.040]  And I wrote this article saying, well, look, this is neither new nor illegal.
[36:26.400 --> 36:27.780]  Why is it front page news?
[36:28.020 --> 36:38.900]  It is, however, immoral, because we're talking about a massive increase in surveillance of a, uh, of a degree, not necessarily kind, that should give us all pause.
[36:39.000 --> 36:42.860]  We're not talking about, you know, Operation Shamrock and things like that where there's a few people.
[36:43.100 --> 36:45.500]  And The Intercept loved this article.
[36:45.620 --> 36:47.860]  They thought it was very neat and unique, and they published it.
[36:47.940 --> 36:49.340]  And I thought that was great on them.
[36:49.460 --> 36:51.980]  And then Infowars republished it.
[36:52.240 --> 36:59.640]  You know, they, I, without my, uh, consent, but they literally took the entirety of an article from The Intercept that I wrote and put it on Infowars.
[36:59.860 --> 37:09.040]  To this day, I'm, uh, horrified that, you know, when people search for my name, an article on Infowars can show up if you dig far enough into the...
[37:09.040 --> 37:10.740]  Yeah, that would keep me up at night, for sure.
[37:10.840 --> 37:10.980]  It should.
[37:11.360 --> 37:17.280]  But it goes to show you that not everything, not all speech that comes from this idiot is idiotic.
[37:17.300 --> 37:18.180]  But it's not his speech.
[37:18.320 --> 37:18.760]  It's your speech.
[37:18.820 --> 37:19.920]  He just stole it.
[37:19.920 --> 37:20.580]  That's true.
[37:20.820 --> 37:21.520]  That's true.
[37:21.700 --> 37:23.280]  But it's the posting of it.
[37:23.380 --> 37:23.960]  It's the article.
[37:24.040 --> 37:24.660]  No, don't you see?
[37:25.080 --> 37:29.000]  You're helping to legitimize them by having your speech be added to their content.
[37:29.220 --> 37:30.600]  Well, I didn't intentionally do that.
[37:30.660 --> 37:32.700]  No, and I would object to it if I were you.
[37:32.940 --> 37:38.040]  I mean, I would want to be affiliated with you in any way because of the horrible things that, that, that you spread around.
[37:38.280 --> 37:39.640]  Yeah, it is abhorrent.
[37:39.800 --> 37:46.780]  Um, but I, I, I, again, I don't necessarily think that we should leave it to others to determine what we hear.
[37:46.940 --> 37:51.060]  It should be up to us as individuals to make that individual choice.
[37:51.060 --> 37:51.780]  But it is up to us.
[37:51.920 --> 37:56.440]  We are the ones that have been, been, uh, yelling at Facebook, get this guy off.
[37:56.580 --> 37:58.640]  And they finally answered that.
[37:58.720 --> 37:59.660]  So how is it not?
[37:59.920 --> 38:01.860]  Well, we have, but others have been saying, keep them up.
[38:01.940 --> 38:02.080]  Okay.
[38:02.120 --> 38:07.540]  But with that logic, we'll never get any kind of result because there's always going to be somebody saying, don't do that.
[38:07.560 --> 38:08.000]  That's fine.
[38:08.080 --> 38:15.920]  But then, you know, use the, the God given capabilities that you have in that massive amount of gray matter between the headphones and filter it yourself.
[38:15.920 --> 38:16.800]  So, okay.
[38:16.940 --> 38:23.520]  So your, your answer is simply to not listen to all the hatred and, and, and craziness that's out there.
[38:23.840 --> 38:28.800]  And it's just going to keep being out there for, for you to see on Fox news or for you to see on Facebook.
[38:29.360 --> 38:32.120]  And don't you see, this is like a snowball going down.
[38:32.260 --> 38:32.920]  No, I don't.
[38:33.040 --> 38:34.200]  It's just going to get bigger and bigger.
[38:34.340 --> 38:35.540]  And that, that is where we are now.
[38:35.800 --> 38:45.640]  I think the fact that the hateful speech is out there and you can see it and you can identify it and call it out for what it is, is a great thing because it tells you where you stand in relation to the people.
[38:45.740 --> 38:47.980]  It's a great thing for hate speech because there's more of that now than ever.
[38:48.200 --> 39:01.780]  And you, and it's a great thing for free speech as well, because, you know, we can be just as loud on the other side and we can identify those whom we think are abhorrent and those whom we believe we should not listen to or who should be shunned or banned.
[39:01.940 --> 39:11.940]  I mean, it's not hard for an individual to turn off Infowars, to not go to their site, to, you know, remove them from their Twitter feed or not listen to a Spotify.
[39:11.940 --> 39:17.540]  Yeah, but it's very hard for an individual not to be affected by it in some way because of the reactions of other people.
[39:17.720 --> 39:19.500]  Look, I'm not going to disagree with that.
[39:19.660 --> 39:37.160]  I think it's, I think the same problem that you have with Infowars is the same problem that we have with the online radicalization of people when it comes to, uh, you know, organizations like ISIS is that you have people with very weak minds who are untrained in how to use logic and how to spot specious arguments and,
[39:37.200 --> 39:39.260]  and how to spot logical fallacies.
[39:39.260 --> 39:39.560]  Okay.
[39:39.560 --> 39:41.380]  Well, no, I'm glad you brought this up.
[39:41.520 --> 39:41.780]  ISIS.
[39:42.260 --> 39:44.500]  So an ISIS page on Facebook, no problem.
[39:46.180 --> 39:48.960]  Well, that's, uh, I think going beyond.
[39:49.120 --> 39:57.860]  I mean, I think that's equivalent to Nazism because they are actively engaged in acts of terror, plotting against the United States, executing people.
[39:58.180 --> 39:59.540]  Infowars isn't doing that.
[39:59.800 --> 40:05.640]  I mean, we, there, there's a big difference in degree, if not kind between Infowars and ISIS.
[40:06.000 --> 40:11.880]  I mean, ISIS, I'm sorry, Infowars, to my knowledge, has not beheaded anybody and posted a video of it.
[40:12.200 --> 40:12.620]  Okay.
[40:12.840 --> 40:19.080]  But, uh, you know, white supremacists and Nazis over the years have done quite a few horrible things.
[40:19.220 --> 40:27.880]  And people who enable that, that, that kind of, uh, speech, that kind of thinking are helping to legitimize that, helping to inspire future people.
[40:27.940 --> 40:35.340]  Are you saying that if I had an ISIS, um, sympathetic, uh, page on Facebook, that would be okay?
[40:35.640 --> 40:36.040]  Sure.
[40:36.320 --> 40:43.580]  One where I said, you know, don't, don't, guys, don't actually go out and do this, but this is why, you know, uh, we, we believe in this and, uh, et cetera, et cetera.
[40:43.840 --> 40:46.240]  I think it, it would all depend on the content of the page.
[40:46.400 --> 40:58.440]  Obviously, if it, if it intended to radicalize people towards ISIS, I would say absolutely not because you're dealing with, uh, an organization advocating the violent overthrow of the U S government, violence against civilians.
[40:58.440 --> 41:01.280]  I mean, they're, they're a different brand of hate.
[41:01.420 --> 41:03.720]  I think they are more equivalent to Nazism.
[41:03.880 --> 41:10.660]  And I think we would all agree as we did two weeks ago that a hat with a swastika on it would not be allowed at the hope conference.
[41:10.800 --> 41:14.400]  So you're saying give, give the Infowars people a chance.
[41:15.200 --> 41:17.000]  I'm not saying give them a chance.
[41:17.340 --> 41:17.760]  I hear you.
[41:18.000 --> 41:22.600]  I'm saying give them the right to speak on whatever platform they want.
[41:22.660 --> 41:24.480]  And we have the right not to listen.
[41:24.640 --> 41:38.360]  How about give me the right to speak on any platform I want, but put me on Fox news, put me on CNN, put me on all these, all these platforms that are censoring me because you know, I'm not being printed in the New York Times or, you know, in, in the Saturday evening post.
[41:38.940 --> 41:40.520]  Wait, wait, is that even still coming out?
[41:40.520 --> 41:41.320]  I think that stopped.
[41:41.580 --> 41:44.820]  But regardless, I should be able to, to be heard anywhere I want.
[41:45.080 --> 41:45.960]  That's what you're saying.
[41:46.120 --> 41:47.100]  This guy has the right to.
[41:47.260 --> 41:59.320]  The other side of this though, is that, you know, I'm not contesting the rights of Facebook, of YouTube, of any of these private organizations to engage in this particular type of censorship.
[41:59.320 --> 42:01.500]  I'm just, I think that it's perfectly legal.
[42:01.660 --> 42:02.380]  It's within their rights.
[42:02.560 --> 42:04.560]  They're not a governmental organization.
[42:05.040 --> 42:05.420]  Isn't that what we're saying?
[42:05.580 --> 42:06.480]  Isn't that what this is about?
[42:06.660 --> 42:07.640]  Do they have the right to do this?
[42:07.640 --> 42:07.820]  No.
[42:07.900 --> 42:08.060]  Yes.
[42:08.180 --> 42:08.420]  Okay.
[42:08.560 --> 42:09.020]  Move on.
[42:09.180 --> 42:12.080]  It's about whether it's morally right, right?
[42:12.220 --> 42:16.860]  There's a difference between having a right to do something and exercising that right in a moral manner.
[42:17.020 --> 42:23.980]  I think they're, they're finding that the federal government is taking an interest in, in the people speaking on their platforms.
[42:24.140 --> 42:28.560]  And, and they're saying, Hey, we might give you a second chance this time.
[42:28.840 --> 42:39.880]  And you might want to take a look at your community standards, clean things up a bit, and we'll reassess things because we allowed this, you know, you got to do it the other way.
[42:40.020 --> 42:53.800]  And when it became something that could be exploited by state actors and influence our democratic process, it started disrupting, uh, other speech, you know, in other words, it crept.
[42:53.800 --> 43:06.100]  And, and I think this is actually pressure from the state on private entities for the third and final time before they actually go in and dissolve these companies and platforms.
[43:06.300 --> 43:07.300]  That's a fascinating theory.
[43:07.420 --> 43:08.600]  I mean, that's what I'm hearing in this.
[43:08.720 --> 43:11.940]  I don't think this is shame on Facebook, shame on Twitter.
[43:12.200 --> 43:13.380]  They are under scrutiny.
[43:13.600 --> 43:20.760]  This is their last chance before it's vaporized from the market and from social anything.
[43:21.160 --> 43:21.540]  Okay.
[43:21.760 --> 43:35.880]  And like this, this, um, uh, a choice by them to remove infomores as like a major megaphone for all of the like creatures of the, of the, the net.
[43:36.120 --> 43:38.340]  You know, I, I, my argument was not Alex Jones.
[43:38.520 --> 43:42.200]  I also want to clear this up that he, he is not, I'm saying the idiot.
[43:42.200 --> 43:44.840]  I'm saying the people willing to buy his crap.
[43:45.240 --> 43:57.840]  This is who we were afraid of before because we had an election in the way and we're now afraid of them equally because we really aren't going to give them another chance to do more damage with these platforms.
[43:58.220 --> 44:14.840]  And I think that pressure is from the federal government on these private entities who have then their own standards to compare and, and apply that to, but this is the, the onus, the will of the American people in, in, um, the manifestation of these, you know,
[44:15.040 --> 44:18.540]  uh, Senate committees and so on that are putting pressure on these platforms.
[44:18.540 --> 44:20.180]  You can, uh, join our conversation here.
[44:20.280 --> 44:22.880]  Three, four, seven, three, three, five, zero, eight, one, eight is our phone number.
[44:23.000 --> 44:23.220]  Cheshire.
[44:23.920 --> 44:24.600]  Yes, Manuel.
[44:24.840 --> 44:26.500]  Uh, you were talking about Fox news earlier.
[44:26.700 --> 44:31.040]  That's different than Twitter and Facebook because they edit what you say.
[44:31.180 --> 44:35.080]  You get in front of their camera, they will edit you in the manner they want to edit you.
[44:35.160 --> 44:35.580]  That's censorship.
[44:35.580 --> 44:36.220]  That's censor.
[44:36.340 --> 44:37.260]  You're censoring me.
[44:37.560 --> 44:38.240]  Well, yeah.
[44:38.580 --> 44:39.600]  I mean, that's not speaking.
[44:39.800 --> 44:50.640]  That's what we're saying with this simplistic way of, uh, uh, of, of, of reacting to, uh, to, uh, quality, you know, standards, things, uh, unity standards and, uh, yeah.
[44:50.920 --> 44:56.280]  And, and, and the whole case by case thing versus, you know, what are we enforcing across our platform?
[44:56.420 --> 45:01.640]  I think a lot of those notions were never really fixed and then they, they were allowed to persist.
[45:01.640 --> 45:07.240]  And that's where we're coming back around saying, uh, nah, nah, not again.
[45:07.400 --> 45:11.120]  You know, if either you have these standards and enforce them or not, they don't edit you if you're live.
[45:11.580 --> 45:12.980]  So they can't edit you if you're live.
[45:12.980 --> 45:18.180]  Well, true, but they take your clips and edit them up and then put them back over the air.
[45:18.400 --> 45:18.600]  Uh huh.
[45:19.200 --> 45:25.560]  Well, you know, it, if, if Carl is indeed right, and I, and I think that there, there is a lot to be said for what he said.
[45:25.660 --> 45:28.060]  And I think it's a, I think it's a great theory about what's happening.
[45:28.480 --> 45:34.760]  If it is the case though, that the government is putting sort of behind the scenes pressure on these particular companies to do this.
[45:34.840 --> 45:41.000]  And we know that they are in fact, under a lot of pressure to combat, you know, this election muddling and interference and whatnot.
[45:41.000 --> 45:49.080]  If that is the case and they're encouraging this kind of censorship, I think that's somewhat dangerous as well because they need to come out and say that they're doing that.
[45:49.340 --> 45:59.300]  Um, because then the government is taking a viewpoint and then, then it becomes state action and then legal challenges can arise and we can deal with this in the courts like reasonable people.
[45:59.300 --> 46:00.700]  We have a caller joining us.
[46:00.800 --> 46:01.100]  Good evening.
[46:01.800 --> 46:02.560]  Good evening.
[46:02.800 --> 46:07.200]  Um, I support the decision to, uh, take Alex Jones off those platforms.
[46:07.560 --> 46:09.720]  Um, he's very incendiary.
[46:10.040 --> 46:20.940]  And, um, as you pointed out correctly, he does have the, uh, the means to, uh, access another platform to, uh, to, uh, disseminate his propaganda.
[46:21.220 --> 46:24.980]  And I, I don't feel that, uh, Facebook has any obligation to him.
[46:25.400 --> 46:25.820]  Yeah.
[46:25.880 --> 46:32.220]  You know, in a way I think this, this might actually turn out to be good for him because, uh, he won't have anybody standing in the way.
[46:32.340 --> 46:34.960]  It'll just be info wars.com or whatever site he has.
[46:35.160 --> 46:37.100]  Uh, and he'll have total control over it.
[46:37.200 --> 46:42.260]  Assuming that, uh, you know, he's able to find a provider that doesn't cut him off because of the crap he spews.
[46:42.360 --> 46:42.460]  Yeah.
[46:42.520 --> 46:57.040]  He would have to, he would have to, uh, then have a provider hosting him at least at this point, you know, YouTube can be the fall guy, you know, the, the, uh, the evildoer and it's, and it's like agnostic as to how he's connecting to YouTube, but were he to host it,
[46:57.120 --> 47:01.080]  then you have to then say, okay, what host is allowing this and why?
[47:01.400 --> 47:03.200]  And then they get the scrutiny, you know?
[47:03.300 --> 47:10.600]  So whoever gets him, if at all is, is somehow upstream gonna, gonna have the finger pointed at them at some point.
[47:10.700 --> 47:13.020]  See, in a way, Alex, this is all public pressure.
[47:13.200 --> 47:19.560]  This is all the public voting because it's that pressure that led Facebook and all the others to this decision.
[47:19.900 --> 47:28.120]  Uh, it's, it's not the government because the government supports what Alex Jones, remember what Trump said about Alex Jones, how he was a legitimate journalist or whatever.
[47:28.640 --> 47:34.060]  Uh, and, uh, believe me, if it was up to Trump, he would, he would have, uh, a thousand Facebook channels.
[47:34.420 --> 47:41.360]  I don't know if one phone call constitutes the entire public, but, um, look, I agree with you that there's public support for this.
[47:41.500 --> 47:42.480]  There's no doubt about that.
[47:42.480 --> 47:43.600]  We see that in this room.
[47:43.920 --> 47:55.540]  But I do think that it is a scary situation that we're in when we are further encouraging the polarization of our political process and our people and our thoughts and our dialogue.
[47:56.140 --> 48:01.660]  Well, it's a bit late to, uh, be concerned about that because that's been happening now for quite some time.
[48:01.980 --> 48:02.860]  Thank you for your concern.
[48:03.680 --> 48:09.960]  Um, and, uh, you know, I see this as a reaction and a healthy reaction, uh, you know, on the corporate level.
[48:09.960 --> 48:12.520]  And I don't think we would have had this, uh, years ago.
[48:12.780 --> 48:18.440]  Uh, I don't think corporations would have, uh, stepped up like this, but you say one, one phone call doesn't, um, doesn't measure.
[48:18.540 --> 48:20.560]  Let's, let's take another phone call then because we do have a bunch.
[48:20.700 --> 48:21.280]  Good evening.
[48:21.480 --> 48:21.720]  Go ahead.
[48:21.780 --> 48:22.240]  You're on the air.
[48:22.500 --> 48:22.700]  Yeah.
[48:23.100 --> 48:23.440]  Okay.
[48:23.640 --> 48:27.920]  Um, I don't use any social media, Facebook or Twitter or any of them.
[48:27.920 --> 48:28.300]  Good for you.
[48:28.360 --> 48:29.880]  I don't really care what they do.
[48:30.060 --> 48:30.580]  All right.
[48:30.760 --> 48:36.460]  At the same time, it's not Mark Zuckerberg's job to un-gullibalize America.
[48:36.640 --> 48:40.700]  If that's such a word, there's a sucker born every minute and they're all out there.
[48:40.700 --> 48:45.060]  And a lot of them on Facebook, it's not Zuckerberg's job to fix that.
[48:45.260 --> 48:50.040]  Well, is it, is it his right to, uh, decide who gets to use the system and who doesn't?
[48:50.840 --> 48:54.500]  Well, some people say it's a private company, but it's really not.
[48:54.500 --> 48:57.360]  It's a public company because it's on the stock exchange.
[48:57.420 --> 48:58.560]  It's not a utility.
[48:58.760 --> 48:59.920]  Facebook is not a utility.
[49:00.200 --> 49:00.740]  God help us.
[49:00.820 --> 49:03.800]  If it was, it's a private company that there's no disputing that.
[49:03.920 --> 49:05.680]  Oh, it's on the, it's on the stock market.
[49:05.680 --> 49:06.660]  It's a public company.
[49:06.960 --> 49:07.660]  Okay, fine.
[49:07.740 --> 49:12.360]  So it's a, it's a company that's traded on this, but it's not, it's not a, a government utility is what I'm trying to say.
[49:12.860 --> 49:20.220]  It's not, but then the stock, the stock, uh, the, the stockholders, they get to vote on that at the, at the meeting, right?
[49:20.940 --> 49:21.820]  I, I don't know.
[49:21.920 --> 49:23.560]  Is this an issue for stockholders to vote on?
[49:23.640 --> 49:25.280]  But they have to protect their platform.
[49:25.520 --> 49:27.160]  And at the end of the day, that is their users.
[49:27.200 --> 49:42.020]  And if their usership is, is implicated and gullible, as you said, I was calling them, you know, idiots, but these are audience members of Alex Jones, then permeating the rest of that platform with people who are also gullible, but may not directly consume his,
[49:42.040 --> 49:44.260]  his product, then yes, I think.
[49:44.400 --> 49:52.180]  And I think this is maybe what you're saying is that Facebook, uh, has a right to enforce that as a community standard, or maybe you're disagreeing.
[49:52.260 --> 49:56.700]  You're saying you don't care what they do and, and, uh, they shouldn't have that right.
[49:56.780 --> 49:59.240]  I mean, if they're a private company, they should have that right.
[49:59.360 --> 49:59.880]  Is that what you're saying?
[49:59.880 --> 50:02.520]  Well, they're not, but they're not a private company.
[50:02.680 --> 50:03.640]  They're a public company.
[50:03.800 --> 50:04.240]  Sir, I'm sorry.
[50:04.500 --> 50:05.340]  That's fixing somewhere.
[50:05.520 --> 50:07.660]  There's a difference between a public company and a public utility.
[50:07.820 --> 50:10.380]  A public company, but a private platform.
[50:10.600 --> 50:12.180]  I'm talking to the public service commission.
[50:12.340 --> 50:12.900]  No, you're right.
[50:13.300 --> 50:14.180]  I misspoke.
[50:14.380 --> 50:14.640]  Yes.
[50:14.920 --> 50:15.060]  Yeah.
[50:15.280 --> 50:15.600]  Okay.
[50:16.180 --> 50:19.040]  So, uh, you're in favor of Alex Jones remaining on Facebook.
[50:20.060 --> 50:23.580]  As I said, I really don't care either way because I don't use it.
[50:23.620 --> 50:27.200]  And if I did, I wouldn't listen to him anyway, saying that the Sandy Hook thing.
[50:27.200 --> 50:44.000]  But you're saying that, that it's not the responsibility of the platform if people are so gullible, which is fair, but you know, the company is responsible at also, you know, to the shareholders, but its existence relies on those people not, uh, being disintegrated and,
[50:44.100 --> 50:46.260]  and them existing and, and so on.
[50:46.360 --> 50:54.760]  So if they want to protect their audience and their usership in, in a way they see fit, uh, you know, we're saying, some of us are saying that, that is within their, their rights.
[50:54.860 --> 50:59.080]  You see, it's easy to, to say that, uh, yeah, let them be on, on Facebook.
[50:59.240 --> 50:59.880]  I just won't listen.
[51:00.220 --> 51:10.900]  But, um, what if, uh, what if your uncle, uh, uh, re resends something that is, uh, is posted or links, it's, it's a very pervasive, uh, manner of communications.
[51:11.240 --> 51:13.760]  And, uh, you know, we, I think we see this all the time.
[51:13.780 --> 51:13.980]  Yeah.
[51:14.020 --> 51:19.600]  What happens when your uncle says, Hey, you know, we're going to start a checkpoint in the neighborhood to remove illegals.
[51:19.860 --> 51:33.700]  You know, you got to come out and meet us at Duncan, you know, whatever, you know, whatever the plan is when people start using these platforms and the, the, as a result of their gullibility to act in your neighborhood, what is your mood then?
[51:34.180 --> 51:34.440]  All right.
[51:34.480 --> 51:35.780]  I, I'm going to make a point here.
[51:35.980 --> 51:38.840]  I feel like I have to, but let me give you the phone number one more time.
[51:38.980 --> 51:40.580]  Three, four, seven, three, three, five, zero, eight, one, eight.
[51:40.680 --> 51:40.740]  Go ahead.
[51:40.800 --> 51:41.120]  Yeah.
[51:41.140 --> 51:43.740]  We need one more arbiter of a public opinion.
[51:43.940 --> 51:44.380]  And we have one.
[51:44.580 --> 51:45.320]  I'm going to put them on hold.
[51:45.400 --> 51:45.600]  Go ahead.
[51:45.960 --> 51:57.260]  Uh, my point here, is that I'm going to predict that this is going to be used against us that we're going to be that not necessarily I will, but you guys are going to be eating your words, uh, two years from now.
[51:57.360 --> 51:57.960]  What you're saying?
[51:58.120 --> 52:00.960]  We're going to say, Oh boy, I wish Alex Jones was still on Facebook.
[52:01.220 --> 52:01.480]  No, no.
[52:01.720 --> 52:11.260]  That, that viewpoint discrimination by these particular private entities determining what we can and can't see on these platforms is a bad idea because it's going to affect the left too.
[52:11.380 --> 52:19.480]  But when, when we are organizing and trying to rally, of course, people may be engaging in something like civil disobedience, uh, you know, during the 2020 election.
[52:20.160 --> 52:20.880]  Think about that.
[52:21.000 --> 52:29.000]  That will not, we're not, we're not, we're not talking about, about that kind of thing where you're, you're, uh, participating in a demonstration or an action or something like that.
[52:29.120 --> 52:30.900]  We're talking about hate speech.
[52:30.900 --> 52:32.820]  We're talking about Holocaust denial.
[52:32.820 --> 52:38.040]  We're talking about, about awful things that only lead to more awful things.
[52:38.260 --> 52:48.620]  And this is a way to To make it not be galvanized and gather strength and become so ugly and powerful that it's almost unstoppable.
[52:48.880 --> 52:52.300]  This will lead to the eradication of organizing online.
[52:52.300 --> 52:54.800]  This will lead to censorship of organizers.
[52:54.800 --> 53:04.800]  It will lead to people who want to engage in civil disobedience and peaceful protests in any forum being censored by these particular platforms.
[53:04.800 --> 53:09.300]  Because they're going to claim, well, this might erupt in violence.
[53:09.300 --> 53:10.600]  This might erupt in a riot.
[53:10.600 --> 53:13.340]  And therefore violates our terms of service and our terms of use.
[53:13.340 --> 53:15.160]  I think there's such a distinction.
[53:15.540 --> 53:17.000]  Because then you're dealing with viewpoint.
[53:17.940 --> 53:23.300]  And think about back to the days of Martin Luther King and what he called for in the civil disobedience during the civil rights era.
[53:24.120 --> 53:26.800]  That would have violated Facebook's terms of service.
[53:26.860 --> 53:27.740]  I don't really think so.
[53:27.840 --> 53:29.760]  But let's talk to another caller.
[53:29.840 --> 53:30.080]  Good evening.
[53:30.180 --> 53:30.600]  You're on the air.
[53:31.180 --> 53:31.620]  Hi.
[53:32.060 --> 53:35.140]  Alex, I sent you an email like two weeks ago.
[53:35.140 --> 53:37.580]  I know you're busy with the birth of your child.
[53:37.580 --> 53:44.220]  But when you get a chance, could you send me a link to that PowerPoint of your presentation about cyber squatting Trump?
[53:44.600 --> 53:44.820]  Sure.
[53:45.000 --> 53:45.400]  Absolutely.
[53:45.460 --> 53:49.500]  If you can resend that to me, it probably is buried somewhere in my inbox.
[53:49.680 --> 53:51.500]  But send that to me again and I'd be happy to do that.
[53:51.640 --> 53:56.060]  Other than pestering Alex to send you an email, do you have an opinion on this?
[53:56.060 --> 53:57.020]  No.
[53:57.240 --> 53:58.300]  Yeah, of course.
[53:58.680 --> 54:03.440]  I think Alex Jones is a menace and I think he doesn't...
[54:04.040 --> 54:05.560]  I don't think it's censorship.
[54:05.780 --> 54:09.120]  I think he's a horrible person and I agree with you.
[54:09.560 --> 54:13.480]  But there are other ways for him to get his message of hate out.
[54:13.780 --> 54:15.260]  Facebook doesn't need to help him.
[54:15.380 --> 54:17.740]  He has other means to do it.
[54:17.780 --> 54:24.600]  He's a wealthy guy and unfortunately his garbage will be with us for many generations to come.
[54:24.600 --> 54:25.880]  Well said.
[54:26.060 --> 54:27.800]  And unfortunately, sadly said.
[54:27.920 --> 54:32.140]  But thank you for that call and thank you for the email to Alex that you'll now resend.
[54:32.980 --> 54:39.060]  And yeah, you know, Facebook helped make Alex Jones the demon he is.
[54:39.400 --> 54:40.220]  Facebook helped elect Trump.
[54:40.580 --> 54:41.420]  That's true.
[54:41.620 --> 54:42.340]  That's very true.
[54:42.520 --> 54:46.060]  But even that is something that I know we can't stop.
[54:46.260 --> 54:48.060]  But you can stop hate speech.
[54:48.180 --> 54:53.720]  You can stop calls to violence and just awful things like what he stands for.
[54:54.620 --> 54:55.860]  So that's my point.
[54:56.280 --> 54:58.180]  We'd like to hear what listeners have to say.
[54:58.380 --> 55:00.320]  O-T-H at 2600.com.
[55:00.960 --> 55:02.200]  Hey, how come we're not on Facebook?
[55:03.140 --> 55:05.300]  Apparently, it's very popular with the kids.
[55:05.840 --> 55:07.880]  There's plenty of 2600 groups on Facebook.
[55:08.020 --> 55:08.420]  Well, I know that.
[55:08.480 --> 55:10.560]  But I mean, our show needs to be on Facebook.
[55:10.840 --> 55:14.240]  If he... Okay, he just vacated a bunch of space on Facebook now.
[55:14.240 --> 55:16.380]  So then they have space for us now.
[55:16.680 --> 55:18.520]  How do we get... Can someone out there help us with this?
[55:18.740 --> 55:21.660]  Put us on Facebook so people will be trying to get us taken down.
[55:21.660 --> 55:23.460]  And maybe I'll post a picture of my new child.
[55:23.880 --> 55:26.060]  That sounds... Yeah, you should do that.
[55:26.260 --> 55:26.800]  Let's go full circle here.
[55:27.040 --> 55:28.040]  You have the obligation.
[55:28.340 --> 55:29.600]  Hey, we're out of time.
[55:30.060 --> 55:33.500]  Stay tuned for the personal computer show coming up next.
[55:34.200 --> 55:37.700]  And we will be here in...
[55:37.700 --> 55:40.080]  As soon as I figure out why the CD player is not playing.
[55:41.180 --> 55:41.660]  Okay.
[55:42.260 --> 55:43.080]  That's why.
[55:43.640 --> 55:45.380]  Because somebody had the wrong button pushed in.
[55:47.280 --> 55:48.340]  We'll be back next week.
[55:48.540 --> 55:57.560]  O-T-H at 2600.com Don't forget to pledge to WBAI 516-620-3602 Tell them Off the Hook is your favorite show.
[55:58.660 --> 56:01.040]  Or at least the show that made you want to call.
[56:02.160 --> 56:04.200]  And become a WBAI buddy.
[56:05.080 --> 56:12.100]  Give to WBAI.org And you can also text to 41444 with the letters WBAI.
[56:12.300 --> 56:13.340]  This is Emmanuel for Off the Hook.
[56:13.400 --> 56:13.780]  Have a good night.
[56:13.780 --> 56:18.600]  A drinkless under the roundabout Nobody told him different
[56:41.030 --> 56:43.270]  sauce So they offered him
[56:53.470 --> 57:04.570]  equal eye in his bag While he preached to death Let asbestos, let asbestos Let asbestos, let asbestos So
[57:20.960 --> 57:28.420]  we enriched lemon coffee party And that asbestos, let asbestos For the
[57:45.620 --> 57:55.500]  opportunity, except if I paid it Let asbestos, let asbestos, let asbestos, let asbestos,
[57:58.680 --> 58:01.800]  let asbestos, let asbestos, let asbestos, let asbestos, let asbestos, let us, let us, let us, let us,
[58:53.480 --> 59:01.220]  let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us,
[59:01.220 --> 59:01.220]  let us,
[59:44.570 --> 59:57.470]  let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us, let us Nine o'clock on WBAI and it's time for the personal computer show.
[59:58.070 --> 01:00:00.510]  And here we go with this.