[00:00.000 --> 00:02.220]  ...exploitation that continues even now.
[00:02.680 --> 00:12.520]  This Spanish-language film layers history, racism, and the plight of indigenous peoples in a unique plot that recreates the past and strikes at the issues of today.
[00:12.740 --> 00:18.800]  And I want to extend a special invitation to our Spanish-speaking friends to help us catch all the nuances of the film.
[00:18.800 --> 00:25.940]  So come celebrate our special month by joining us at the Brooklyn Commons, 388 Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn, New York.
[00:26.060 --> 00:28.720]  That's Thursday, November 29th, 7 p.m.
[00:29.060 --> 00:30.220]  for Even the Rain.
[00:35.150 --> 00:38.490]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:38.750 --> 00:41.230]  It's 8 o'clock time once again for Off the Hook.
[02:26.530 --> 02:28.190]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:28.270 --> 02:29.410]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:29.490 --> 02:32.930]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Rob T.
[02:33.150 --> 02:33.590]  Firefly.
[02:33.830 --> 02:34.450]  Good evening.
[02:34.610 --> 02:34.910]  Alex.
[02:35.370 --> 02:35.710]  Good evening.
[02:35.910 --> 02:36.530]  And Kyle.
[02:37.050 --> 02:37.970]  Yes, I'm also here.
[02:38.370 --> 02:41.130]  Well, we have some interesting things to talk about tonight.
[02:41.670 --> 02:48.130]  Rob, I believe you have some kind of a late-breaking story involving that neo-Nazi group called the Proud Boys.
[02:48.430 --> 02:50.230]  What exactly happened to them today?
[02:50.470 --> 02:52.310]  Yeah, this story is breaking right now.
[02:53.050 --> 02:54.830]  It's pretty entertaining, actually.
[02:54.830 --> 03:03.210]  They released a set of their bylaws, heavily redacted, to the public in conjunction with an apparently racist lawyer they're working with.
[03:03.210 --> 03:05.490]  But it's in the form of a PDF.
[03:05.930 --> 03:16.530]  And if you look at it, it's got a lot of details, such as members' names and certain bylaws redacted with black stripes, like you would see on any manner of redacted documents.
[03:17.070 --> 03:18.510]  When you don't want somebody to read something.
[03:18.570 --> 03:18.690]  Right.
[03:18.770 --> 03:19.150]  That's what you do.
[03:19.190 --> 03:20.090]  You put a line through it.
[03:20.170 --> 03:20.630]  Yes, exactly.
[03:20.930 --> 03:21.430]  Yes, absolutely.
[03:21.570 --> 03:22.250]  Nobody can read it.
[03:22.370 --> 03:23.170]  Nobody can read it.
[03:23.170 --> 03:28.950]  In this case, unless they highlight the missing text, which is still there, it's just written in black-on-black.
[03:29.230 --> 03:34.330]  So many organizations have made the same mistake when releasing redacted material.
[03:34.430 --> 03:35.370]  Ten years ago?
[03:35.550 --> 03:36.610]  Ten years ago, yes.
[03:36.790 --> 03:42.570]  People have figured out PDFs a bit more since then, except apparently the Proud Boys.
[03:42.870 --> 03:43.590]  Oh, no, no, Proud Boys.
[03:43.590 --> 03:44.590]  You can't be proud anymore.
[03:44.910 --> 03:46.130]  So they've got a bunch of...
[03:46.130 --> 03:47.210]  You have to be ashamed of yourself.
[03:47.510 --> 03:52.510]  So there's a bunch of personal identifying information with members of their organization.
[03:52.510 --> 03:53.490]  And we're printing it out right now.
[03:53.570 --> 03:54.630]  So what do we have so far?
[03:54.770 --> 03:57.410]  We have their names, address, what?
[03:57.630 --> 03:58.450]  Everything that...
[03:58.450 --> 04:01.870]  It looks like we've got names and other identifying info.
[04:02.170 --> 04:03.930]  I'm going through a story about it right now.
[04:04.250 --> 04:05.450]  More toner, then.
[04:05.650 --> 04:06.530]  More toner, yes.
[04:06.550 --> 04:08.330]  These are problems we shouldn't be worried about.
[04:08.410 --> 04:08.550]  Okay.
[04:08.750 --> 04:18.830]  But there are also rules about, like... There is a particular rule regarding how many times they are allowed to self-pleasure each month.
[04:19.030 --> 04:19.550]  You know...
[04:19.550 --> 04:21.370]  You know, family show, I know, but...
[04:21.370 --> 04:22.870]  We don't need to know certain things.
[04:23.230 --> 04:24.150]  No, we didn't.
[04:24.150 --> 04:24.590]  We didn't.
[04:24.650 --> 04:26.350]  And that maybe should have stayed redacted.
[04:26.510 --> 04:27.830]  But in...
[04:27.830 --> 04:29.230]  Let's re-redact that.
[04:29.230 --> 04:29.430]  Yeah.
[04:29.750 --> 04:33.910]  But, like, just go back and mute that part of the MP3 file if you're listening to this later.
[04:34.330 --> 04:35.410]  But, yeah.
[04:35.570 --> 04:43.230]  And there's a bunch of, yeah, a bunch of personal identifying information regarding members of this organization who maybe didn't want that info out there.
[04:43.390 --> 04:43.670]  Alex.
[04:43.670 --> 04:44.030]  Yeah.
[04:44.130 --> 04:48.590]  Let me give everybody a practical tip here when it comes to the redaction of documents, okay?
[04:48.790 --> 04:51.430]  Because this happens all the time in litigation.
[04:51.830 --> 04:56.050]  People have a lot of problems with redacting PDFs.
[04:56.130 --> 04:58.950]  You know, they put annotated black boxes on them.
[04:59.070 --> 05:06.550]  And then if you can move those black boxes if the PDF isn't flattened, a very easy trick to getting around this problem is you redact the document.
[05:06.550 --> 05:15.930]  Let's say you make these black boxes, whatever it is, and then just take a screenshot of the page as it's redacted, which ensures that the entire image is flattened.
[05:16.090 --> 05:23.050]  And nobody can then, you know, highlight your text because you've essentially just taken an image of the redacted PDF itself.
[05:23.230 --> 05:27.610]  Nobody can ever get behind that particular method of redaction.
[05:27.930 --> 05:30.910]  You know, that's the, I think, the really only surefire way to do that.
[05:30.910 --> 05:34.610]  When you take an image, it makes it into a, I'm sorry, screenshot, it makes it into a JPEG.
[05:34.770 --> 05:38.690]  Then you can essentially save the JPEG as a PDF if you really need a PDF.
[05:38.970 --> 05:41.710]  But this happens constantly, I have to say.
[05:42.990 --> 05:46.070]  And really, that's the only way I've found to get around this.
[05:46.210 --> 05:51.850]  I'd be curious to hear from listeners if they have any other innovative methodologies to prevent this from happening.
[05:52.610 --> 05:55.170]  You know, to make the Proud Boys proud.
[05:55.810 --> 06:07.250]  Yeah, or a glue stick, and if you cut the letters out of magazines, you can reprint it in a way that no one will know what the original source was.
[06:07.330 --> 06:10.930]  Maybe we just shouldn't be giving any more tips and hints.
[06:11.110 --> 06:13.910]  Maybe this is Darwinism, and we just have to let it play out.
[06:14.650 --> 06:16.730]  Why were they releasing this anyway?
[06:16.730 --> 06:23.450]  Was this like some kind of transparent thing where they wanted people to know how great their organization was or something?
[06:23.450 --> 06:25.150]  It seems to be that sort of thing.
[06:25.370 --> 06:29.950]  But in the process, they revealed, I think, their disorganization.
[06:31.210 --> 06:37.990]  Well, the idea that they have bylaws is what strikes me as extraordinarily odd.
[06:38.130 --> 06:41.630]  They don't seem to be very process-oriented, but I guess some of them are.
[06:41.930 --> 06:47.730]  Well, they seem to take themselves very seriously, as any club might.
[06:48.350 --> 06:52.590]  But in this case, we're not really paying attention to the details of the matter.
[06:53.270 --> 06:55.730]  And this seems to have really, really backfired.
[06:55.890 --> 06:56.390]  Point of order.
[06:57.010 --> 06:57.730]  Let's move on.
[06:58.030 --> 06:58.390]  Yeah, please.
[06:58.750 --> 06:58.930]  Enough of this.
[06:59.090 --> 06:59.910]  Enough of the Proud Boys.
[07:00.070 --> 07:00.230]  Wow.
[07:00.530 --> 07:04.350]  Okay, I'm sure we'll hear more about that in the news or somewhere else on the internet.
[07:05.390 --> 07:06.770]  We're going to talk about bookstores tonight.
[07:06.770 --> 07:14.630]  Because bookstores are something that have been near and dear to our hearts for so many years, being in the publishing world.
[07:15.070 --> 07:19.570]  I remember when we first put 2600 into bookstores, how amazing it was.
[07:20.250 --> 07:28.050]  Just showing up in places like, remember, Tower Books and all kinds of local establishments.
[07:28.290 --> 07:29.470]  I remember all the bookstores.
[07:29.590 --> 07:31.150]  All the bookstores that used to exist.
[07:31.390 --> 07:34.970]  Shakespeare and St. Mark's.
[07:34.970 --> 07:43.330]  And there were so many of them around the city, around Long Island, Oscars, Corner Bookshop.
[07:43.430 --> 07:45.350]  And all the names are coming back to me.
[07:45.730 --> 07:47.330]  And then the chains came in.
[07:47.630 --> 07:50.350]  Chains, Borders, and Barnes & Noble.
[07:50.770 --> 07:54.630]  And a lot of those independent stores were forced out of business.
[07:54.670 --> 07:57.750]  And then the chains got into trouble.
[07:57.850 --> 07:59.490]  And they started closing down.
[08:00.750 --> 08:07.530]  And now we're at a state where very few people can find a good bookstore near them.
[08:08.170 --> 08:10.050]  And it's really sad.
[08:10.290 --> 08:11.630]  There's a lot of digital content.
[08:11.830 --> 08:15.150]  There are a lot of people that are able to copy things onto their Kindles.
[08:15.250 --> 08:17.930]  But nothing, nothing replaces a book.
[08:18.090 --> 08:20.330]  And nothing replaces a bookstore.
[08:20.330 --> 08:25.330]  And that's why, in New York, we're very proud of certain institutions.
[08:25.830 --> 08:44.150]  And I think, you know, if you ask people, especially, you know, people in the lower half of Manhattan, but I think people throughout the entire metropolitan area, if not a wider area, what the center of the universe of bookstores would be, I think many would say The Strand,
[08:44.410 --> 08:47.570]  The Strand on Broadway, right below 14th Street.
[08:49.690 --> 08:54.950]  And The Strand is also in trouble, but not for the reasons you might think.
[08:55.110 --> 08:57.130]  I mean, I'm sure that plays a part of it as well.
[08:59.170 --> 09:06.830]  But this is an institution, multi-story bookstore, just filled with so much amazing content, books literally spilling out into the street.
[09:06.990 --> 09:07.570]  We've all seen it.
[09:07.650 --> 09:08.250]  We've all been there.
[09:08.250 --> 09:13.230]  And if you haven't been there, you have to go there and just experience what bookstores are all about.
[09:13.730 --> 09:16.350]  In Paris, there are still plenty of bookstores everywhere.
[09:16.890 --> 09:19.950]  And this is what our world used to be like.
[09:20.030 --> 09:22.830]  And hopefully, this is what our world will be like for many years to come.
[09:25.070 --> 09:35.110]  But this is something that we feel strongly about because we're all about literacy and reading and writing and spreading the word.
[09:35.110 --> 09:43.250]  And so that's why we're going to be talking tonight about that particular institution and what is happening right now.
[09:43.330 --> 09:48.350]  We have with us tonight, special guest, Nancy Wyden, the owner of The Strand.
[09:48.830 --> 09:52.970]  First of all, congratulations on owning a true treasure in New York.
[09:54.070 --> 09:56.170]  How long have you been involved?
[09:56.170 --> 10:02.330]  I've been there so many times and I've, you know, never actually talked to people that were running the place.
[10:02.330 --> 10:07.930]  I just felt so small in that amazing outlet.
[10:08.710 --> 10:09.910]  What an introduction.
[10:10.150 --> 10:10.430]  Thank you.
[10:10.550 --> 10:11.310]  You're very welcome.
[10:11.830 --> 10:15.850]  So The Strand has been in my family for 91 years.
[10:15.850 --> 10:20.390]  It was founded by my grandfather, Benjamin Bass, in 1927.
[10:20.390 --> 10:26.770]  It was a small bookstore amongst Book Row, which is an area that ran along Fourth Avenue.
[10:27.310 --> 10:29.830]  And at its height, there were 48 bookstores.
[10:30.150 --> 10:33.730]  He survived the Depression, but not very well.
[10:33.890 --> 10:37.170]  He had at one point to live in the cot in the basement.
[10:37.690 --> 10:42.150]  And his wife died and my dad and his sister was sent into foster care.
[10:42.370 --> 10:44.150]  But they stuck with the bookstore.
[10:44.390 --> 10:47.330]  And then when my dad became 13, started working there.
[10:47.710 --> 10:50.850]  And both my grandfather and my dad worked there up until they died.
[10:51.090 --> 10:52.530]  And I've worked there all my life.
[10:52.530 --> 10:52.950]  Wow.
[10:53.390 --> 10:54.590]  So it's been...
[10:55.170 --> 10:57.090]  It's, you know, our family passion.
[10:57.090 --> 10:57.810]  We love it.
[10:57.890 --> 10:58.890]  We're so proud.
[10:59.170 --> 11:02.630]  We, you know, we just want to put good books in the hands of readers.
[11:02.970 --> 11:03.970]  Now, did I get it wrong?
[11:04.010 --> 11:04.570]  I said Broadway.
[11:04.890 --> 11:05.650]  Is it Fourth Avenue?
[11:06.050 --> 11:07.930]  Oh, that was the original location.
[11:07.930 --> 11:11.150]  And we moved in 1958 to Broadway and 12th Street.
[11:11.750 --> 11:18.030]  And in 1989, my dad purchased the building, which brings us to our present problem.
[11:18.190 --> 11:20.190]  So, okay, you own the building.
[11:20.190 --> 11:23.290]  It seems that, you know, you don't have to worry about landlords.
[11:24.290 --> 11:26.390]  And you have an incredible following.
[11:26.390 --> 11:27.610]  You have an amazing structure.
[11:27.750 --> 11:28.590]  You have so much content.
[11:29.770 --> 11:32.930]  So I guess the average person would say, well, it seems like you're home free.
[11:33.110 --> 11:38.810]  You know, all these problems that the small stores and the chains are having, you seem to have survived.
[11:38.930 --> 11:39.950]  But apparently...
[11:39.950 --> 11:45.330]  And when I heard the reason why you're in trouble, I was kind of floored by it.
[11:45.330 --> 11:54.490]  But it's because your building is on the verge of being labeled an historical building.
[11:54.610 --> 11:55.110]  Is that correct?
[11:55.310 --> 11:55.410]  Yeah.
[11:55.530 --> 12:02.130]  They want to landmark it, which on the surface seems like a great idea, wonderful way to preserve things.
[12:02.290 --> 12:06.870]  But the reality is that the building is not going anywhere.
[12:07.190 --> 12:07.950]  It's not...
[12:07.950 --> 12:10.810]  There's no developers coming to raise it.
[12:11.730 --> 12:13.690]  I've been a great...
[12:14.770 --> 12:20.310]  I've taken great care of the building for over 20 years.
[12:20.310 --> 12:26.790]  And we've been in the location for 65 years and been in business for 91 years.
[12:26.790 --> 12:41.590]  And now the landmarks, people want to come with all of their rules and bureaucracy and high cost and committees and really dig in and take a part of the, what I consider ownership of the building.
[12:42.690 --> 12:47.630]  What is it that they could be saying that would run counter to what you're already doing?
[12:48.030 --> 12:50.390]  I mean, you're not tearing the building down.
[12:50.590 --> 12:52.050]  You're not destroying history.
[12:52.950 --> 12:56.490]  What is it that you're actually facing here?
[12:56.650 --> 12:58.230]  Alex, I know you're involved in this as well.
[12:58.430 --> 12:59.090]  Yes, exactly.
[12:59.270 --> 13:02.250]  We're lucky enough to be working with Nancy and the Strand on this.
[13:02.590 --> 13:05.930]  And, you know, part of the issue here is that when a...
[13:05.930 --> 13:08.890]  You know, as Nancy mentioned, it seems like a great idea.
[13:08.890 --> 13:11.070]  And most of the time, I'm...
[13:11.070 --> 13:14.850]  And I'm sure Nancy is as well, all in favor of landmarking historical institutions.
[13:15.130 --> 13:19.270]  The issue here is that the Strand itself is already a cultural institution.
[13:19.270 --> 13:20.930]  It's already a New York landmark.
[13:20.930 --> 13:37.350]  And as Nancy mentioned, her father and she have taken impeccable care of this particular building, which, according to the Landmark Preservation Commission, is a perfect example of Renaissance revival architecture from the, you know, 20th century, early 20th century.
[13:38.430 --> 13:50.110]  But once a building is designated as a landmark, there are a huge amount of issues that come along with it in terms of the bureaucracy that you have to deal with with respect to the city.
[13:50.110 --> 13:54.390]  Any changes to the facade have to be approved by the Landmark Preservation Commission.
[13:54.630 --> 14:06.330]  And, in fact, any changes you would want to make internally in the building, even if they don't affect the facade, which is really what the LPC, the Landmark Preservation Commission, is interested in landmarking, have to be approved.
[14:06.650 --> 14:09.030]  That adds a lot of process to this.
[14:09.110 --> 14:10.730]  It adds a lot of bureaucracy to it.
[14:10.730 --> 14:15.610]  It opens you and your plans for your business up to public scrutiny, potentially litigation.
[14:15.910 --> 14:23.530]  And any time you add additional process like this, additional bureaucracy, additional permitting, you're going to need more experts.
[14:23.550 --> 14:24.910]  You're going to need to hire architects.
[14:25.110 --> 14:28.310]  You're going to need to, unfortunately, hire lawyers to deal with these processes.
[14:29.070 --> 14:29.590]  And...
[14:29.590 --> 14:31.170]  This is not something the city would pay for.
[14:31.170 --> 14:31.990]  No.
[14:32.370 --> 14:32.630]  No.
[14:32.830 --> 14:42.430]  There are some tax-related grants and things that you can obtain from the city, which are... getting that is a bureaucratic process in and of itself.
[14:42.770 --> 14:48.410]  However, you know, all of this process is expensive.
[14:48.790 --> 14:49.870]  It's very expensive.
[14:51.010 --> 14:52.570]  And insofar as the strand...
[14:52.570 --> 14:53.810]  They've been around for 91 years.
[14:53.950 --> 14:55.390]  People think they're doing really, really great.
[14:55.670 --> 14:57.330]  You know, it's a brick-and-mortar store.
[14:57.330 --> 15:02.490]  In the age of Amazon and online retailers, every brick-and-mortar store is struggling.
[15:02.670 --> 15:05.990]  For the strand to exist today, they do so on very thin margins.
[15:06.250 --> 15:24.570]  For the Landmark Preservation Commission to decide to landmark this building, and in their draft designation report, that's available to the public, or at least it should be, frankly, one of the reasons why they're trying to landmark this building is because they know and believe that the strand is part of the cultural heritage of New York City.
[15:24.770 --> 15:26.090]  We all agree with that.
[15:27.330 --> 15:36.290]  Trying to landmark this and designating as a landmark, they could have the unintentional but foreseeable consequence of actually destroying that which they're seeking to preserve.
[15:36.730 --> 15:46.650]  That's when I think the landmarking process really has to yield and think about the economic hardship, not only to Nancy as a business owner, but the strand employees.
[15:46.910 --> 15:48.230]  How many people is it, Nancy?
[15:49.870 --> 15:53.010]  235, and most of them are union employees.
[15:53.310 --> 15:56.450]  So we support with not only them, but their families.
[15:57.330 --> 16:00.170]  And we need the flexibility to change with our customers.
[16:00.610 --> 16:03.310]  That's why we've been able to survive for 91 years.
[16:03.450 --> 16:08.030]  I might need to put in a coffee bar, finally succumb to things like that.
[16:08.870 --> 16:14.210]  And I don't really need to go with changes on how we're doing our signage.
[16:14.210 --> 16:15.590]  I need to go through this committee.
[16:16.830 --> 16:23.130]  And if we have some emergency fires, floods, I'm suddenly at their mercy.
[16:23.890 --> 16:32.490]  I, you know, the idea of a coffee shop might sound like, you know, every other bookstore, but I think in strand it could be really unique and different.
[16:32.490 --> 16:44.450]  But if you were to do something like that, that's the kind of nightmare scenario you're talking about, where you'd have to get all sorts of additional work done and surveys and permission and things like that.
[16:44.490 --> 16:49.090]  Well, if I want to put a side entrance in for that, different signage.
[16:49.630 --> 16:56.010]  Now, have you guys talked to anybody in the city about this, about their well-intentioned mess that they're creating?
[16:56.350 --> 17:14.190]  Well, you know, I'm a little bit of a political pawn right now because it was all a reaction from the IT center that was on 14th Street where de Blasio supported and the Councilwoman Rivera was supposedly not supporting and they all caved in to the developers.
[17:15.090 --> 17:22.870]  And then as a compromise, they came up with picking, handpicking seven nearby buildings to landmark.
[17:23.490 --> 17:25.470]  And so I've met with everybody.
[17:25.470 --> 17:26.610]  I've met with landmarks.
[17:26.610 --> 17:30.650]  I've tried to reach out to the mayor's office, like stalking everybody.
[17:31.030 --> 17:33.550]  And Councilwoman Rivera, I've met with her.
[17:33.770 --> 17:38.210]  And, you know, so far, no help.
[17:38.470 --> 17:47.550]  I mean, they're just, they're kind of on their, I mean, stuck in a Kafka novel where they're into their bureaucratic ways, their systems and committees.
[17:47.770 --> 17:48.330]  I hear that.
[17:48.690 --> 17:48.970]  Hearings.
[17:49.230 --> 17:49.470]  And, yeah.
[17:49.710 --> 17:57.830]  Well, and, you know, not to mention the fact, you know, and we're going to get to the point where we talk about the fact that there's going to be a public hearing on Tuesday at 9.30 a.m.
[17:57.890 --> 17:59.470]  at One Center Street on the ninth floor.
[17:59.650 --> 18:00.390]  We'll get to that.
[18:00.430 --> 18:00.950]  We're going to get to that.
[18:00.990 --> 18:01.510]  We'll get to that.
[18:01.710 --> 18:02.110]  Okay.
[18:02.270 --> 18:05.430]  And we hope people show up and support us at that particular public hearing.
[18:05.570 --> 18:06.230]  We'll get to that bit.
[18:06.490 --> 18:16.250]  However, what's really important to note here, too, is that there was not a hell of a lot of notice given to Nancy and the Strand about this particular process.
[18:16.250 --> 18:22.270]  Once they calendar a building to be designated for landmark status, you've got a couple of weeks to prepare for this.
[18:22.490 --> 18:27.550]  Those couple of weeks fell, you know, in between Thanksgiving and Christmas.
[18:27.910 --> 18:37.570]  And, you know, for any brick-and-mortar store, especially a bookstore like The Strand, Thanksgiving and the days before it and after it are the busiest times of the year.
[18:37.750 --> 18:39.350]  You've got everybody on staff.
[18:39.570 --> 18:41.250]  Everybody stretched extraordinarily thin.
[18:41.690 --> 18:47.190]  And then to have to prepare for a public hearing immediately following Thanksgiving is, you know, just...
[18:47.190 --> 18:48.990]  Frankly, it strikes me as a bit unfair.
[18:49.870 --> 18:55.750]  We had tried, and working with the LPC to try to get this public hearing moving, they moved, rather.
[18:56.010 --> 18:58.270]  They insist on holding this on Tuesday.
[19:00.030 --> 19:03.270]  And we do hope that people show up to support us for that.
[19:03.490 --> 19:07.070]  You know, we'll talk about how and when and where again.
[19:07.370 --> 19:09.790]  But we have been engaged with the LPC.
[19:09.990 --> 19:14.270]  They take it as part of their core mission to engage with building owners and business owners.
[19:15.170 --> 19:23.090]  But, you know, Nancy here is really in a unique position too because she's not only the proprietor of The Strand, she's also the owner of the building.
[19:23.090 --> 19:24.410]  So she's doubly impacted.
[19:24.430 --> 19:30.690]  And the employees of The Strand are going to be doubly impacted by this particular process happening at the busiest time of the year.
[19:30.870 --> 19:34.230]  And not only that, but as, you know, I'm not asking for anything.
[19:34.230 --> 19:38.930]  I'm just asking for being relieved of this bureaucratic hassle.
[19:38.930 --> 19:49.570]  But while I'm doing that, unlike Amazon, you know, you know, like I said, I've never asked for any tax breaks or special favors.
[19:49.910 --> 19:59.230]  Then we have the richest man in America coming forth and the city handing him $3 billion in subsidies.
[19:59.630 --> 20:01.570]  Yeah, yeah, we've discussed that.
[20:02.130 --> 20:06.510]  I mean, maybe I'm naive, but I really hope that that's not the way the world works.
[20:06.510 --> 20:16.650]  What strikes me here, listening to the hassles that have come your way so far, we've worked with a lot of people in the court system, people facing all kinds of prosecution.
[20:16.710 --> 20:23.750]  It sounds like the same tactics being used to put you at a disadvantage, except you're not accused of a crime.
[20:23.750 --> 20:25.230]  You're doing something good.
[20:25.230 --> 20:32.150]  You've built an institution, and yet you're being treated in the same way where hearings are scheduled for the worst possible time for you.
[20:32.450 --> 20:41.350]  All this nonsense is being thrown at you that basically makes your position weaker, hurts your business, and threatens it, ultimately.
[20:42.470 --> 20:44.010]  And to what end?
[20:44.370 --> 20:50.430]  It's simply because you're stuck in this Kafkaesque nightmare, which is really disturbing to hear about.
[20:50.550 --> 20:52.270]  Well, you know how I like to disagree with you.
[20:52.330 --> 20:54.050]  I'll actually agree with you on that.
[20:54.170 --> 20:55.330]  Let's talk about the process.
[20:55.410 --> 20:57.110]  You like to agree with me, and I know that...
[20:57.110 --> 20:59.150]  Deep down, I do.
[20:59.330 --> 21:00.350]  But, you know, I'm a good lawyer.
[21:00.490 --> 21:01.370]  I can argue both sides.
[21:02.070 --> 21:04.390]  In any event, let's talk about the process.
[21:04.390 --> 21:04.930]  You brought it up.
[21:05.170 --> 21:09.770]  It's quite interesting because, yes, once this is designated, there really isn't much you can do to fight it.
[21:09.850 --> 21:17.850]  You can go and you can provide testimony and documentation to the LPC that's not necessarily going to sway them with regard to the designation.
[21:18.350 --> 21:25.470]  And there is not really an effective legal process to contest this either because the LPC, it's a city agency.
[21:25.470 --> 21:26.470]  It does what it wants.
[21:26.610 --> 21:27.310]  If they have...
[21:27.310 --> 21:32.550]  If the designation goes forward, what happens then is a political process.
[21:32.550 --> 21:34.570]  It's not necessarily a legal process.
[21:34.870 --> 21:43.490]  After the designation is finalized by the city, then only the city council can rescind or modify that designation.
[21:43.490 --> 21:46.250]  And it starts the clock running for 120 days.
[21:46.490 --> 21:50.270]  If the city council does nothing, then they've assented to that particular designation.
[21:50.390 --> 21:55.250]  If they decide to act on a majority basis, they can only do two.
[21:55.350 --> 21:56.170]  They can rescind it.
[21:56.230 --> 21:59.610]  So the designation would be removed entirely or it can be modified.
[21:59.910 --> 22:03.190]  Like, let's say, you know, the entire site is designated as a landmark.
[22:03.430 --> 22:09.530]  You might be able to modify it such that, you know, only the few top floors are landmarks, something like that.
[22:09.930 --> 22:27.370]  And if you're not satisfied with that process, because ordinarily the city council doesn't do anything and their silence is essentially assent to the designation process, then the only legal recourse you have is to file something called an Article 78 proceeding under New York law.
[22:27.530 --> 22:43.650]  And that is a proceeding that would be started in New York State Supreme Court, which, for those listeners that are not lawyers in New York, the Supreme Court in New York is ridiculously named because it is the lowest level court in New York.
[22:43.650 --> 22:44.330]  It's ridiculous.
[22:44.830 --> 22:46.470]  The Supreme Court is the lowest court in New York.
[22:46.510 --> 22:48.890]  The Supreme Court is the trial level state court here in New York.
[22:48.970 --> 22:50.290]  The Court of Appeals is the highest level.
[22:50.410 --> 22:58.270]  So you go to the trial level court, the Supreme Court, as it's called, and you file this Article 78 proceeding.
[22:58.370 --> 23:10.270]  And the only way that you can prevail on that is to prove that a city agency like the LPC, the Landmark Preservation Commission, acted arbitrarily and capriciously, which is an extraordinarily high burden to meet.
[23:10.270 --> 23:12.850]  Almost nobody meets that burden.
[23:13.110 --> 23:18.350]  It would be throwing money away to try to prove that the LPC acted arbitrarily.
[23:18.570 --> 23:19.750]  But then this...
[23:19.750 --> 23:20.670]  Is there a way to say...
[23:20.670 --> 23:21.210]  You guys just...
[23:21.210 --> 23:22.030]  You kind of made a mistake.
[23:22.030 --> 23:22.990]  We know you meant well.
[23:23.130 --> 23:26.090]  Is there a way to say it in a less hostile manner so that maybe they'll listen?
[23:26.310 --> 23:31.670]  Well, that's what we're hoping to get across at the public hearing on Tuesday, December 4th at 9.30 a.m.
[23:31.670 --> 23:34.490]  at 1 Center Street near all the major subways.
[23:36.690 --> 23:42.090]  Further to this point, though, the issue of hey, you got it wrong, right?
[23:42.270 --> 23:43.970]  You know, let's listen to reason here.
[23:45.030 --> 23:46.450]  Nancy brought up a really good point.
[23:47.110 --> 23:55.550]  Part of the reason why these buildings, there's seven buildings that have been designated for landmark status that are south of 14th Street and neighbors of the Strand.
[23:56.030 --> 24:04.630]  Part of the reason why they've been designated for this is because of this rezoning of the so-called Silicon Alley, which again is a misnomer because New York doesn't really have alleys.
[24:04.810 --> 24:08.390]  You know, I mean, it's not like Chicago where you put your garbage out in an alley.
[24:08.470 --> 24:10.730]  New York doesn't really have a lot of alleys, so it's kind of silly.
[24:10.910 --> 24:29.850]  In any event, the Silicon Alley redistricting, the LPC is really concerned about commercial business owners, building owners in particular, that, you know, may own several buildings and decide that, you know, this is a great time for us to flip this building and to sell it because a new landowner,
[24:30.010 --> 24:38.550]  a new building owner could raise the building to the ground, you know, destroy the building and erect some kind of, you know, new glass tower like we see happening all around the city.
[24:39.430 --> 24:44.850]  In the case of the Strand, and Nancy, you can attest to this, there's no chance of that happening.
[24:45.090 --> 24:47.930]  She and her father have been great stewards of this building.
[24:48.050 --> 24:49.110]  They're not going anywhere.
[24:49.730 --> 24:52.910]  Four generations of my family have been patrons of the Strand.
[24:53.350 --> 24:58.210]  You know, if you think about my grandfather was, my mother was, I am, and my five-year-old son.
[24:58.330 --> 24:59.450]  We've all been to the Strand.
[24:59.750 --> 25:07.030]  I think Nancy can probably say here today that given the right opportunities, she would like to keep the Strand there for another four years.
[25:07.170 --> 25:10.470]  I'm sorry, another four generations, not four years, another four generations.
[25:11.970 --> 25:22.950]  And the building itself has been in such impeccable condition because they've been great stewards of it without the city becoming what is essentially a silent but, you know, pain-in-the-butt partner.
[25:23.790 --> 25:25.890]  Nobody's forced her hand to do that.
[25:26.450 --> 25:32.090]  And we have no air rights and we have no, it's called FAR, no buildable space.
[25:32.250 --> 25:32.930]  We're overbuilt.
[25:33.170 --> 25:35.910]  So, and it's a loft, it's a loft building.
[25:36.050 --> 25:37.430]  Nobody's going to tear it down.
[25:39.290 --> 25:39.810]  Wow.
[25:40.130 --> 25:49.930]  Well, this is, it's so incredible to hear that these hassles are just being handed out to people who really don't deserve them.
[25:50.450 --> 25:56.990]  So we, basically, the city council has to be, has to do something, has to turn this around.
[25:57.110 --> 26:00.590]  How many members of the city council are there and do you need just a majority or?
[26:01.290 --> 26:05.590]  There are 11 city council members and it needs to have six of them.
[26:05.830 --> 26:06.190]  That's right.
[26:06.450 --> 26:06.570]  Yeah.
[26:07.270 --> 26:11.010]  And, you know, the problem with this is that, you know, that's a political process.
[26:11.170 --> 26:11.290]  Right.
[26:11.290 --> 26:24.430]  You know, once you have this designation, you shouldn't really have to be engaged in political wrangling because what you have essentially here is the takings of a property by a governmental agency.
[26:24.650 --> 26:31.270]  You know, this would be ordinarily something that could be subject to the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution, you know, that would violate the takings clause.
[26:31.390 --> 26:46.690]  But because it's a regulatory takings, you know, for the purpose of the preservation of the cultural and historic landmarks of the City of New York, it's different and it's not necessarily considered a violation of the Fifth Amendment because the building owner still owns the building.
[26:46.690 --> 26:56.770]  But now you just have these additional partners and it's the City of New York and it becomes burdensome and expensive for people to work with the LPC, you know, in this particular manner.
[26:56.970 --> 27:11.430]  Maybe not so for, you know, high-flying commercial real estate developers who have the means to, you know, hire cadres of lawyers and consultants to work with the LPC on a regular basis whenever they need anything done to any of their buildings.
[27:11.470 --> 27:15.550]  But we're not talking about Nancy Wyden, commercial real estate developer.
[27:15.750 --> 27:18.130]  We're talking about Nancy Wyden, a bookstore owner.
[27:18.490 --> 27:18.630]  Yeah.
[27:18.730 --> 27:24.030]  And I just want to talk about, Emmanuel, about how, you know, you talked about the decline of bookstores.
[27:24.230 --> 27:28.350]  In 1950, in New York City, there were 368 bookstores.
[27:28.830 --> 27:32.950]  Then in 1981, it dropped down to 249.
[27:33.530 --> 27:37.530]  Today, I counted myself, there are 79 bookstores.
[27:37.870 --> 27:47.190]  And a lot of them are just, you know, a cookbook or a Christian bookstore, very specialized and very small bookstores.
[27:47.690 --> 27:57.150]  So, I mean, you know, all of our, you know, we're here in the epicenter of a cultural center, literary center, and we need bookstores.
[27:57.190 --> 28:02.110]  And those are good numbers compared to a lot of cities in America right now.
[28:02.190 --> 28:04.330]  It's a really sad situation.
[28:04.330 --> 28:09.350]  I'll bet when you go back to that initial number of over 300, there were no chains.
[28:10.430 --> 28:16.170]  And the chains have, the chains drove out the independent bookstores and then found they couldn't support the business themselves.
[28:16.670 --> 28:22.670]  And what you guys have done is managed to survive all of that and prosper and just bring something unique.
[28:22.870 --> 28:35.490]  And, you know, Alex, when you were talking, just, I don't want to make the comparison to organized crime, but boy, it sounds like a shakedown where someone says, hey, nice story you got there, it'd be a shame if something happened to it and now we're your new business partners.
[28:36.450 --> 28:40.550]  You know, I want to think everyone has good intentions here.
[28:40.990 --> 28:46.990]  Everyone wants to preserve the place, but sometimes you have to look at the process, you have to look at what you're actually doing and you have to listen.
[28:47.710 --> 28:51.630]  And, you know, I guess the goal right now is to get them to listen.
[28:51.830 --> 28:54.850]  But I think there's a hearing coming up on Tuesday where maybe they'll do that.
[28:55.050 --> 28:56.630]  Yes, you might be right about that.
[28:56.730 --> 28:58.430]  I think Tuesday at 9.30 a.m.
[28:58.530 --> 29:00.550]  at 1 Center Street on the 9th floor.
[29:01.070 --> 29:03.330]  We would love to see people show up.
[29:03.430 --> 29:07.350]  We would love WBAI listeners who know the Strand, who love the Strand to show up.
[29:07.590 --> 29:08.690]  We're going to have T-shirts.
[29:08.970 --> 29:10.590]  We're going to have some buttons to give out.
[29:10.790 --> 29:18.750]  I mean, look, if you show up for this public hearing and you can walk away with a T-shirt, that will be, you know, an historic T-shirt.
[29:18.810 --> 29:18.930]  All right.
[29:18.990 --> 29:20.470]  Well, that's not the reason to go to a hearing.
[29:29.630 --> 29:30.170]  No doubt.
[29:30.610 --> 29:31.730]  Nancy's going to be speaking.
[29:31.870 --> 29:32.690]  I'm going to be speaking.
[29:32.830 --> 29:39.190]  We're going to have several authors, very well-known authors that will be speaking on the Strand's behalf as well.
[29:40.070 --> 29:45.110]  We believe there's going to be some press coming out about this in the next few days.
[29:45.830 --> 29:56.310]  We really want to energize people to get behind the Strand, people who love the Strand and know that it's a cultural institution worth saving, but saving not in a way that's going to destroy it.
[29:56.310 --> 29:58.630]  I mean, you've been there for...
[29:58.630 --> 30:01.310]  the Strand's been operating 91 years.
[30:01.370 --> 30:02.250]  I think they know what they're doing.
[30:02.290 --> 30:07.590]  There's not many other things in New York that have been operating for 91 years.
[30:08.210 --> 30:12.050]  But to go back to your OC, your organized crime analogy here...
[30:12.050 --> 30:16.230]  I didn't want to make that analogy, but I can't help but feel it from what you're describing.
[30:16.330 --> 30:39.690]  Well, look, there have been cases in the past, reported cases, where building owners who have not complied with the demands of the Landmark Preservation Commission and have made modifications to their building that have gone outside their bounds have been fined substantial amounts of money for that to the extent where the fines could actually outweigh the value of the building.
[30:40.130 --> 30:49.130]  This is not something that we want to be subject to in operating New York's oldest and most well-known bookstore.
[30:49.650 --> 30:55.410]  And I think, quite frankly, the Strand and Nancy, what was the one in Portland?
[30:56.110 --> 30:56.830]  Powell's Bookstores.
[30:56.870 --> 30:57.430]  Powell's Bookstores.
[30:57.570 --> 31:04.470]  I mean, Powell's and the Strand are, I think, the most well-known bookstores in the United States, if not the world.
[31:05.250 --> 31:12.890]  I mean, you think back to when 25 years ago as well, bookstores were kind of crucial to the hacker community as well.
[31:12.990 --> 31:23.990]  I mean, this is where I learned most of everything I know about Linux and Unix was going into bookstores and sitting down and reading books that I couldn't afford to purchase and were too big to steal.
[31:24.210 --> 31:36.050]  Do you know how many people found out about our magazine by just wandering into a bookstore, random bookstore, whether it's, you know, Gem Spa downtown or, you know, all kinds of St. Mark's books was another place.
[31:36.290 --> 31:37.310]  And the chains, too.
[31:37.370 --> 31:42.010]  When the chains started spreading around and displacing some of these places, our magazine was found there as well.
[31:42.010 --> 31:44.170]  But the same goes for books.
[31:44.510 --> 31:51.570]  The same goes for all sorts of, you know, zine culture that thrived in that particular period of time.
[31:52.170 --> 31:57.870]  It means a lot to anyone who's creative, anyone who is trying to get thoughts out.
[31:58.010 --> 32:06.390]  It's also a place where people can meet, people can share and get around stories or different ideas in a public way.
[32:06.390 --> 32:19.830]  They can get exposed to things that they ordinarily wouldn't be interested in or gravitate towards because they overheard a conversation or they were gathering with others to learn about something they never thought they'd be interested in.
[32:20.050 --> 32:30.930]  And places like this host events and have ways for people to get excited about learning and, you know, to feed their curiosity.
[32:31.530 --> 32:55.870]  And with this sort of sad irony of a tech center needing sort of a mandated amount of historic buildings to ironically use the existence of this incredible institution as a reason to take control over its very footprint.
[32:55.870 --> 33:09.750]  It just, it seems as though they're incredibly disingenuous in actually caring about the permanency of the establishment that is being used as a justification in this case.
[33:09.910 --> 33:36.330]  And it's, it just really wouldn't be a very supportive move on behalf of the city to use the history and the family business that has thrived there for so long and not participate in a meaningful way as far as supporting their interests and really listening as any business would expect from the city.
[33:36.630 --> 33:43.250]  We're here tonight speaking with Nancy Wyden, owner of New York's esteemed Strand Bookstore.
[33:43.470 --> 33:45.630]  It's been in the family since the 1920s.
[33:45.770 --> 33:50.990]  You can call in if you have questions for her, for us, 212-209-2877.
[33:51.530 --> 33:53.010]  And we'd like to hear from you.
[33:53.370 --> 34:05.650]  Nancy, could you maybe give us, for the sake of listeners who might not have gone to the Strand or for the sake of our listeners in other parts of the world, a floor-by-floor representation of what's in the Strand?
[34:05.670 --> 34:10.770]  Because, you know, I've spent an afternoon just wandering around and discovering all sorts of things.
[34:11.650 --> 34:13.850]  But, how many floors are there to start with?
[34:14.130 --> 34:15.030]  There are four floors.
[34:15.510 --> 34:19.850]  Our slogan is 18 miles of books and we say get lost in the stacks.
[34:20.410 --> 34:22.670]  And that doesn't count outside, too, because there's books in the street.
[34:22.870 --> 34:23.010]  Right.
[34:23.090 --> 34:35.790]  People love our carts, our bargain carts, and frankly, there's just so many, so much good books out there I'm constantly wondering, but we know the shelves are clogged inside, so sometimes we just have to release them to the outside.
[34:36.010 --> 34:39.630]  But there are dollar books, two dollar books out there, 48-cent books.
[34:40.390 --> 34:43.490]  Inside you, you come into, you know, fiction.
[34:43.990 --> 34:45.510]  Every subject is there.
[34:45.770 --> 34:56.310]  On the second floor is art books and kids' books and in the basement music, philosophy, religion, even mathematics and science.
[34:56.590 --> 35:05.630]  And then on our fourth floor, well, third floor is the rare book room which has, we have a gold vault with precious books in there.
[35:05.810 --> 35:07.670]  And we do events.
[35:07.670 --> 35:09.890]  We have at least two or three a day.
[35:10.170 --> 35:23.390]  And so that's so important in this culture of technology where we're just losing this humanness to sit down, actually be with people, be with the authors that are speaking to you, meet people.
[35:23.790 --> 35:33.030]  We've had plenty of marriages there, marriage proposals, bar mitzvahs, fun, happy occasions, people getting together, ideas, coming to life.
[35:33.030 --> 35:35.350]  That rare book section is simply unbelievable.
[35:35.490 --> 35:43.690]  If you've not been there, just going there and just drinking it all in, the history, the years that many of these...
[35:43.690 --> 35:47.290]  Can you give an example of the type of material that you'd find up there?
[35:48.570 --> 35:52.890]  We have, you know, first edition Alice in Wonderland.
[35:52.890 --> 35:59.450]  We have a complete set of Mark Twain signed as Mark Twain or Samuel Clemens.
[36:00.170 --> 36:02.550]  You know, and then some of it's very affordable.
[36:02.550 --> 36:04.630]  Sometimes people are intimidated.
[36:05.310 --> 36:07.970]  Maybe a $20 book that's just signed by...
[36:07.970 --> 36:10.650]  First edition mystery book that's signed by an author.
[36:11.390 --> 36:16.750]  We have Bill Clinton's latest book signed by him and Patterson.
[36:17.130 --> 36:17.970]  It's $100.
[36:20.330 --> 36:24.230]  And that's the fun of it because we buy and use books all the time.
[36:24.230 --> 36:26.630]  You never know what you're going to really find there.
[36:27.690 --> 36:28.250]  All right.
[36:28.290 --> 36:28.790]  We have a phone call.
[36:29.050 --> 36:29.410]  Good evening.
[36:29.550 --> 36:30.090]  You're on Off the Hook.
[36:30.670 --> 36:31.270]  Oh, hi.
[36:32.290 --> 36:33.570]  Can you speak up?
[36:33.710 --> 36:34.970]  You're coming in rather poorly.
[36:35.390 --> 36:36.170]  Can you hear me now?
[36:36.610 --> 36:37.310]  That's better.
[36:37.390 --> 36:37.530]  Yes.
[36:38.010 --> 36:38.730]  Okay, good.
[36:38.910 --> 36:44.430]  Well, first, high commendation to the institution that the Strand bookstore is.
[36:44.950 --> 36:46.410]  And I can't...
[36:46.410 --> 36:53.230]  If I summed up the time I spent there during my lifetime, it would come to several months.
[36:54.990 --> 36:58.870]  And, of course, we want to see it prosper and continue.
[36:59.150 --> 37:06.690]  But I think here we're conflating two separate good entities and pitting them against each other, which a good lawyer would do.
[37:07.050 --> 37:10.730]  But I believe that Alex, in the process, is poisoning the well.
[37:10.890 --> 37:13.310]  And the well is the Landmark Preservation Commission.
[37:13.950 --> 37:20.070]  Now, the Landmark Preservation Commission was instituted because Penn Station was demolished.
[37:20.150 --> 37:24.730]  And if it hadn't been instituted, Grand Central would have followed suit.
[37:25.250 --> 37:33.330]  I come from the opposite end of the political process because I'm always trying to get the attention of the Landmark Preservation Commission.
[37:33.590 --> 37:35.490]  And believe me, it's not an easy thing.
[37:36.030 --> 37:48.170]  I find it hard to believe that they won't give you the relief which you're asking, which if I understand correctly, one of the things that I heard tonight is that you would like a postponement of the hearing.
[37:48.830 --> 37:50.590]  And I can see why they won't do that.
[37:50.690 --> 37:54.370]  They keep postponing things that I have in front of them all the time.
[37:54.630 --> 38:05.970]  So, with the good reasons that you have and the public attention that hopefully this program will suscitate and more, I don't see why you shouldn't have that relief.
[38:06.250 --> 38:14.250]  Now, as far as being an impediment to any changes to the building, unfortunately, I have personal experience.
[38:14.550 --> 38:20.690]  Being a landmark is no impediment whatsoever to even the architectural integrity of the building.
[38:20.890 --> 38:29.130]  I think you could still put in your cafe, you could still make modifications, including a side entrance which has been done.
[38:29.130 --> 38:30.790]  I have a perfect example.
[38:30.930 --> 38:34.730]  Everybody knows the Park building downtown, which is a monument.
[38:35.090 --> 38:37.270]  And that one has a side entrance.
[38:37.690 --> 38:41.530]  It's made for a high-ticket restaurant that I fought for years.
[38:43.130 --> 38:45.150]  And no one is better than my lead.
[38:45.310 --> 38:55.590]  So, it's not a matter of, you know, being impeded by the city, which, to be sure, as you know, as a building owner, impedes at every step of the way.
[38:55.810 --> 39:00.530]  But the matter of the fines that go over the value of the building, that's ridiculous.
[39:00.790 --> 39:13.630]  I mean, Alex, maybe you don't have much experience with this kind of cases, but I can tell you that anything that includes buildings, when it's in front of the city, fines are reduced to nothing all the time.
[39:13.830 --> 39:14.690]  All the time.
[39:14.830 --> 39:24.370]  And I say this from the opposite end, not as a building owner, but as somebody who would like to see some discipline when it comes to regulation being followed by building owners.
[39:24.790 --> 39:33.350]  And I have a lot more to say, and I hope that this goes to a good end because I don't see the necessity of the fine that you're describing.
[39:33.610 --> 39:35.050]  Okay, well, thanks very much for your call.
[39:35.190 --> 39:41.310]  We're going to let Alex and Nancy respond on air on number 212-209-2877.
[39:41.690 --> 39:42.690]  Go ahead, Alex.
[39:42.910 --> 39:43.190]  Sure.
[39:43.850 --> 39:45.290]  Well, my mic is on.
[39:45.430 --> 39:45.730]  Fantastic.
[39:47.350 --> 39:54.450]  To go to the caller's first point with regard to the relief that we had requested, which was to adjourn the meeting for a short date, that was denied.
[39:54.830 --> 40:02.090]  They want to march forward with this particular public hearing on the 4th of December at 1 Center Street, 9.30 a.m.
[40:02.110 --> 40:02.790]  on the 9th floor.
[40:03.270 --> 40:08.670]  We hope that a lot of people will show up and support us at that particular public hearing.
[40:10.230 --> 40:13.330]  We had a lot of great reasons for that to be postponed.
[40:13.410 --> 40:21.410]  And I'm sorry that your meetings keep getting postponed and adjourned, but this particular public hearing has not been.
[40:21.630 --> 40:34.210]  And it could be because there are, I believe, six other buildings that were designated as potential landmarks as well, and they want to move forward with all of these in that same particular district on this particular day.
[40:34.650 --> 40:41.170]  So, yeah, we expected to get some kind of delay, some kind of relief, and we did not get that at all.
[40:42.130 --> 40:48.170]  You know, and this is a process that's been going on for, you know, three and a half months.
[40:49.330 --> 41:03.810]  So, you know, with respect to the other issue, which is the, you know, well, buildings can get done what they want to get done when it comes to alterations and changes, you know, but yes, nobody's contesting that it can't get done.
[41:03.870 --> 41:11.110]  We're contesting the manner in which it has to be done and the process that you have to go through and the bureaucracy and the additional permitting.
[41:11.310 --> 41:14.870]  The caller mentioned the PUC building, which, you know, we're familiar with because we had a conference there.
[41:14.970 --> 41:15.250]  I remember.
[41:15.530 --> 41:20.890]  The Beyond Hope conference in 1997, and now, I believe, Kyle, it's run by RAI, a Seattle company.
[41:21.330 --> 41:21.930]  Oh, yeah.
[41:22.110 --> 41:23.350]  Why are you looking at me?
[41:23.350 --> 41:24.370]  Because you're from Seattle.
[41:24.550 --> 41:25.770]  Okay, yeah, no RAI.
[41:25.970 --> 41:26.990]  They, yeah, they occupied it.
[41:26.990 --> 41:29.210]  They did a really good job with that building.
[41:29.350 --> 41:33.670]  They preserved the history, but I, you know, I get the impression they spent a ton of money doing that.
[41:33.810 --> 41:41.190]  There's a lot of, like, plaques and exhibitions talking about what the building had been used for previously.
[41:41.510 --> 41:42.190]  That's, yeah.
[41:42.190 --> 41:43.490]  That was a part of the renovation.
[41:43.650 --> 41:56.670]  That's what will happen if, if, and the other building that we have our conferences in the Hotel Pennsylvania, I know we spent a lot of time trying to get the attention of the Landmarks Commission because when they were thinking of tearing that down, we wanted to preserve it.
[41:56.830 --> 41:57.870]  That's not what's happening here.
[41:57.970 --> 42:00.010]  We're not talking about a building that's in danger of being torn down.
[42:00.170 --> 42:00.310]  No.
[42:00.330 --> 42:03.170]  And by the way, the caller is right in saying that you can't get their attention.
[42:03.330 --> 42:05.350]  They, you know, we never did get their attention.
[42:06.590 --> 42:12.210]  And this is something different because, yeah, you have their attention, but it's not wanted attention.
[42:12.470 --> 42:13.130]  Now you don't want it.
[42:13.370 --> 42:19.610]  Yeah, but, you know, so to go back to the caller's points, which I take to heart, and I think you made a reasonable argument here.
[42:19.950 --> 42:23.350]  You know, this process as well can also be misused.
[42:23.490 --> 42:37.930]  There can be a misuse and abuse of this particular permitting process when you're looking for something like a certificate of no effect or a certificate of appropriateness to do something, you know, let's say even to the internal structure of the building that would have no implications whatsoever to the facade.
[42:38.870 --> 42:40.710]  That can be misused by the public.
[42:40.890 --> 42:45.510]  People can chime into the LPC and raise, you know, nonsensical concerns.
[42:45.690 --> 42:47.610]  This can then extend the process.
[42:47.810 --> 42:49.550]  Then you may need to hire additional experts.
[42:49.730 --> 42:53.490]  Then you may need to hire more lawyers or more consultants to deal with the LPC.
[42:53.750 --> 42:55.010]  So, yes, I agree with the caller.
[42:55.150 --> 43:00.450]  You can get done what you want to get done, but can you get done what you want to get done in a reasonable time and for a reasonable cost?
[43:01.150 --> 43:15.830]  And for people like Nancy in the Strand, this is doubly impactful because she's not only the building owner, but she's also a business proprietor, which is reliant on this particular building operating on thin margins as it is.
[43:15.970 --> 43:25.670]  If we were talking about a commercial real estate mogul that owns several buildings in the area, had only commercial real estate tenants in there, yeah, I would agree with the caller.
[43:25.850 --> 43:28.690]  But this is a different situation, so I'll respectfully disagree.
[43:28.690 --> 43:32.590]  Oh, you have Jared Kushner on line four who is interested in buying the building.
[43:32.830 --> 43:34.250]  No, actually, we do have another call.
[43:34.490 --> 43:34.830]  Good evening.
[43:34.970 --> 43:35.450]  You're on Off the Hook.
[43:35.550 --> 43:35.750]  Go ahead.
[43:36.870 --> 43:37.270]  Hi.
[43:37.530 --> 43:37.690]  Hi.
[43:38.770 --> 43:39.890]  I had an idea.
[43:40.250 --> 43:41.810]  Maybe if you went...
[43:41.810 --> 43:51.710]  It's going to sound a little silly maybe, but if you went around the neighborhood, looked at buildings, and maybe there are other buildings that could be taken instead of yours, and not that you...
[43:51.710 --> 44:00.150]  You know, you don't have any legal to do anything, but you could maybe look around, see what you think, and maybe even speak to owners of those buildings.
[44:00.390 --> 44:02.830]  Would they have any interest in it before you went forward?
[44:03.010 --> 44:07.990]  And then another point I was going to think about is the law...
[44:07.990 --> 44:19.810]  There are things in the law sometimes buried deep in there, like in real estate law or landmark law or maybe ancient city law, some way to get out of this thing, to dig deep in there.
[44:20.250 --> 44:24.830]  And the other thing is if it were to come to be...
[44:24.830 --> 44:29.770]  Has there ever been deviation from what they're telling you you have to do?
[44:29.890 --> 44:41.350]  Maybe in past things do you know of any landmark things so that maybe she can keep everything the way it is and, you know, do what some other building was landmark but couldn't deviate.
[44:41.490 --> 44:42.630]  But that's all...
[44:43.290 --> 44:45.850]  You know, keep it the way she wants it.
[44:45.970 --> 44:48.050]  But that's all I had to say and thanks so much.
[44:48.290 --> 44:48.910]  Thank you.
[44:49.350 --> 44:50.670]  Those are really good thoughts.
[44:50.850 --> 44:59.830]  I did give a list of over 20 buildings that were in danger of maybe being teared down that were right in the location of the Strand.
[45:00.050 --> 45:07.130]  And I said, please, Landmarks Preservation Committee, put your precious resources towards saving these buildings.
[45:07.230 --> 45:10.110]  And they just said no.
[45:10.230 --> 45:12.250]  They were just focused on the Strand.
[45:12.570 --> 45:18.550]  I also pointed out the St. Dennis Hotel, which has gotten the neighborhood so upset.
[45:18.670 --> 45:20.630]  It has a real history.
[45:20.630 --> 45:34.510]  I think Thomas Edison, he had some kind of a trial of was it microphone or not the microphone of the wire, of using the wire.
[45:34.770 --> 45:45.290]  And Lincoln slept there and that's going that's on Broadway and 11th Street and they're tearing that building down.
[45:45.990 --> 45:47.810]  How can they tear that down with all that history?
[45:47.810 --> 45:53.650]  Well, I'm saying they said, well, the architect was corrupted.
[45:54.090 --> 45:59.490]  And I said, well, why don't you tell the developer to put it back the way it was?
[45:59.650 --> 46:04.270]  But instead, it's going to be a glass extra high edifice.
[46:04.550 --> 46:06.690]  So, I really don't understand their values.
[46:06.950 --> 46:10.290]  Let me just go out the number 212-209-2877.
[46:10.530 --> 46:14.010]  Switchboard is open if you have any comments, questions, statements.
[46:14.390 --> 46:23.230]  We're talking with Nancy Wyden, owner of The Strand Bookstore, currently in danger due to action by Landmarks Commission here in New York City.
[46:23.670 --> 46:30.050]  And we're talking about history, we're talking about bookstores, talking about architecture, all sorts of things like that.
[46:30.150 --> 46:32.270]  And your opinions, expertise are welcome.
[46:32.470 --> 46:32.710]  Kyle?
[46:32.890 --> 46:40.650]  I just heard two things in this discussion that I want to kind of reiterate or just bring back to the center of the conversation.
[46:41.350 --> 47:07.370]  the first being that the burdensome nature of having to embark in this classification, have that A, be a costly thing and something that is being put upon the current business owner and land owner in a way that they're not actually prepared to embark on that in that time frame and at whatever cost.
[47:07.510 --> 47:23.210]  And the second is that the current business and contributor to the landowner is itself on, as Alex said, kind of thin margins or at least in an industry that's kind of under attack by technology.
[47:23.350 --> 47:25.190]  That was kind of my point about irony.
[47:25.410 --> 47:33.210]  And the truth there is that it sounds like you're not necessarily asking to have everything continue to be the same.
[47:33.330 --> 47:42.430]  In fact, you want to grow in some ways, but in ways that you can sustain and that make sense for the business that has resided there for so very long.
[47:42.750 --> 47:47.850]  And in that, I think there's actually a lot of things you
[48:07.850 --> 48:13.770]  have gone to
[48:18.450 --> 48:20.110]  Manhattan back in the 90s.
[48:20.270 --> 48:24.010]  As you mentioned, bookstores earlier, you had all the books in every bar.
[48:24.070 --> 48:30.050]  You had Barnes & Noble You know, they were like the Starbucks, you know, back in the day, you just can't buy them anymore.
[48:31.810 --> 48:40.150]  The only landmark that I know in Manhattan is Cats and probably the Red Caboose is a hobby store on 45th Street, like a train and hobby store.
[48:41.370 --> 48:42.930]  Manhattan's always changing that.
[48:43.170 --> 48:47.750]  You guys probably remember back in the 2000s, they had all these easy internet cafes.
[48:48.730 --> 48:49.950]  They're not there anymore.
[48:50.570 --> 48:51.970]  You mentioned easy everything.
[48:52.150 --> 48:56.650]  Well, they're the ones that kind of... they kicked out the small independent ones.
[48:56.850 --> 48:58.430]  And yeah, there was a history of that.
[48:58.530 --> 48:59.350]  And now that's no more.
[48:59.510 --> 49:01.630]  But books, we're talking about books.
[49:01.790 --> 49:06.090]  These are things that have existed since the beginning of time, practically.
[49:06.510 --> 49:12.130]  And, you know, it's always been an assumption of ours that bookstores would always exist in one form or another.
[49:12.570 --> 49:22.030]  And, you know, that's why it's especially ironic to see our love of a bookstore, our love of an institution, being possibly the thing that would kill it.
[49:22.990 --> 49:25.310]  And that's what we're talking about here tonight.
[49:25.310 --> 49:27.210]  It's just the sheer irony of it.
[49:28.070 --> 49:29.530]  You know, the sad thing, though?
[49:29.750 --> 49:30.090]  What's that?
[49:30.150 --> 49:36.030]  Books will become obsolete because, you know, they have these, you know, all these Amazon Kindles and stuff.
[49:36.210 --> 49:37.630]  And, you know...
[49:37.630 --> 49:42.190]  Yeah, I don't agree because, you know, we were talking about this the other week after the show.
[49:42.370 --> 49:48.350]  How do you leave your relatives who survive you, how do you leave them a Kindle?
[49:48.350 --> 49:49.770]  How do you leave them your Kindle library?
[49:49.950 --> 49:51.610]  How do you leave them your MP3 collection?
[49:51.810 --> 49:52.730]  It's not the same thing.
[49:52.830 --> 50:01.390]  Your library, your books, the thing that you wind up wandering around someone else's house during an estate sale, you know, that is something that can never be replaced.
[50:01.610 --> 50:07.710]  And I think as long as there are at least a few of us that realize that, I think bookstores are going to exist.
[50:07.870 --> 50:09.730]  Where they exist, that's up to us.
[50:10.770 --> 50:11.350]  Take care.
[50:11.550 --> 50:11.790]  All right.
[50:11.810 --> 50:12.390]  Thanks for your call.
[50:12.510 --> 50:12.730]  Alex.
[50:12.730 --> 50:16.030]  I want to read you some descriptions of the Strand.
[50:17.330 --> 50:35.890]  It's been stated that it was the center of literary life in Lower Manhattan, as well as a tourist attraction, that it's a neighborhood institution, and that its continuing presence on Broadway serves as an important reminder of the neighborhood's historic role as a center for the book trade in New York City.
[50:35.990 --> 50:36.590]  You know who wrote that?
[50:36.810 --> 50:37.090]  Who?
[50:37.090 --> 50:44.730]  The Landmarks Preservation Commission, in their draft designation report, arguing that this building should be landmarked.
[50:44.870 --> 50:47.710]  And, you know, this is like, you know, you go back to Yates.
[50:47.810 --> 50:49.710]  You can't separate the dancer from the dance.
[50:49.830 --> 50:51.810]  You can't separate the Strand from the building.
[50:51.970 --> 50:55.950]  They're putting in writing the fact that they want to preserve the Strand.
[50:56.330 --> 51:01.430]  But it's a foreseeable consequence of this type of landmark designation.
[51:01.430 --> 51:08.470]  This kind of aggressive preservation could actually destroy that which it is seeking to preserve.
[51:08.670 --> 51:10.130]  That's the point we're trying to make here.
[51:10.150 --> 51:12.210]  We need to get everybody into a room, all right?
[51:12.210 --> 51:15.010]  Because it sounds like there's a lot of common ground here.
[51:15.850 --> 51:20.090]  But, you know, we also need to make sure people are listening and understand.
[51:20.370 --> 51:22.590]  Because, Nancy, you've been running this business.
[51:22.730 --> 51:23.610]  You know the business.
[51:23.710 --> 51:28.190]  And I think your words carry a lot of weight and should be taken as such.
[51:29.290 --> 51:31.850]  It's a, you know, it's a pleasurable business.
[51:31.850 --> 51:33.950]  But it's also a very difficult business.
[51:34.150 --> 51:40.350]  You know, we're dealing with lots of employees and lots of customers and lots of product and different kind.
[51:40.530 --> 51:43.310]  And every kind of title and every kind of condition.
[51:43.770 --> 51:46.390]  And it's, I mean, it's beautiful.
[51:46.390 --> 51:48.110]  But it's also a fragile environment.
[51:48.710 --> 51:50.350]  Yeah, I can imagine.
[51:50.610 --> 51:52.390]  Yeah, and you mentioned getting everybody in a room.
[51:52.390 --> 51:58.310]  You know, we are all going to be in a room with the LPC on Tuesday at 9.30 a.m.
[51:58.510 --> 52:00.830]  at 1 Center Street at the 9th floor.
[52:01.070 --> 52:03.230]  And let me tell you, there's a lot of subways that are close to it.
[52:03.310 --> 52:05.810]  You can take the 123 or the AC down to Chambers.
[52:05.970 --> 52:07.950]  You can take the 456 to the Brooklyn Bridge.
[52:08.110 --> 52:09.810]  You can take the Jay-Z to Chambers.
[52:09.950 --> 52:11.870]  You can take the RW over to City Hall.
[52:11.990 --> 52:12.930]  What if you want to take a bus?
[52:14.190 --> 52:16.230]  Sure, I'm sure there's plenty of buses.
[52:16.230 --> 52:17.290]  You don't know buses at all.
[52:17.290 --> 52:21.350]  You can take the M14 over to 14th Street, then hop on the RW.
[52:21.450 --> 52:22.230]  How about that?
[52:22.330 --> 52:23.210]  And go down to City Hall.
[52:23.470 --> 52:24.050]  That's a bus.
[52:24.170 --> 52:26.310]  Yeah, you can take Uber or Lyft if you don't like taxi drivers.
[52:26.950 --> 52:28.130]  But that's a whole other show.
[52:28.290 --> 52:28.830]  Good point.
[52:29.050 --> 52:30.310]  All right, let's take another phone call.
[52:30.390 --> 52:30.690]  Good evening.
[52:30.790 --> 52:31.550]  You're on Off the Hook.
[52:31.610 --> 52:31.830]  Go ahead.
[52:32.710 --> 52:34.770]  Okay, no, there was no talk about it.
[52:34.810 --> 52:36.890]  I guess you don't want to sell even to other tenants.
[52:37.030 --> 52:38.890]  See, there must be other tenants in that building, right?
[52:38.910 --> 52:40.170]  It's more than four floors.
[52:40.590 --> 52:43.690]  What if one of the other tenants bought it all or part of the building?
[52:43.910 --> 52:45.070]  That's the way of the process?
[52:45.370 --> 52:47.070]  I don't think there's any other tenants, first of all.
[52:47.070 --> 52:48.430]  Oh, yeah, we have some tenants.
[52:48.630 --> 52:52.330]  We have the Robin Hood Foundation, and we do have a couple of tech tenants.
[52:52.590 --> 53:04.990]  But, you know, I think anybody, most people would buy the building and kick out the Strand Bookstore and put in a bank or something that would give them the maximum amount of money.
[53:05.690 --> 53:07.970]  It might be worth it to sell and get out.
[53:08.130 --> 53:10.450]  I mean, you're going to be in a long fight.
[53:11.010 --> 53:11.730]  So I don't know.
[53:11.870 --> 53:16.150]  Yeah, but it's kind of, you know, you're sinking the ship to save it.
[53:16.150 --> 53:17.250]  It doesn't make sense.
[53:17.470 --> 53:20.930]  The Strand is what Nancy's family has built over the decades.
[53:22.010 --> 53:23.010]  Coming on a century.
[53:23.230 --> 53:23.530]  Wow.
[53:23.750 --> 53:25.350]  The 100th anniversary will be coming up soon.
[53:25.570 --> 53:27.750]  So, yeah, you know, that's not something you just give up.
[53:27.870 --> 53:31.250]  I think, you know, as the world is, it's giant corporations.
[53:31.250 --> 53:36.330]  It's, it's, it's homogeneous retail stores everywhere.
[53:36.330 --> 53:41.490]  Every city in Singapore looks like the same stores in New York.
[53:41.750 --> 53:44.370]  It's, it's just kind of a ridiculous scenario.
[53:44.830 --> 53:49.430]  And that's, people come to places to find unique things.
[53:49.630 --> 53:57.650]  And part of people, a part of the attraction of maybe a bibliophile or an out of towner would be to come to the Strand and see something unique.
[53:57.650 --> 54:05.130]  And yeah, I, I could sell out, I mean, how unhappy that would be and how unhappy that would be for the city.
[54:05.270 --> 54:05.770]  Of course.
[54:06.390 --> 54:17.070]  I, I am thinking to myself just from a hacker perspective, the anonymity of being able to just select whatever book and not have it be in, in your search history and that kind of thing.
[54:17.370 --> 54:22.550]  That can't be, can't be emphasized enough, I think, in, in our conversation.
[54:22.550 --> 54:33.130]  I think that's why people appreciate libraries as well, but also the giving of books when you buy a book and then you, you have it in your library and then you, you give it to someone because you think they might be interested in it.
[54:33.450 --> 54:44.330]  That's something we can't necessarily do, or you don't see it, I think as much with, um, uh, these electronic versions, which in, in, in and of themselves are highly portable.
[54:44.330 --> 54:48.330]  Um, but we sort of miss that warmth of, of sharing a book with someone.
[54:48.330 --> 54:51.330]  If, if you, uh, you lose institutions like this.
[54:51.470 --> 55:03.150]  I, I, I bought you a, uh, a copy of George Orwell's 1984 in a bookstore in Iceland because it was an original copy and it was a book and it was an amazing bookstore too.
[55:03.290 --> 55:16.330]  It was a bookstore that also sold vinyl and the guy was a, a writer himself and there was a cat and it was just, you know, I realized this is, this is something that is, is so precious and you can find it throughout the world.
[55:17.030 --> 55:25.530]  And I'll be damned if, if I'm not going to do everything I can to make sure these things exist where I'm from as well, because so many people get it.
[55:25.610 --> 55:32.610]  And, you know, we, we, we think it's, um, it's a foregone conclusion that it's all going to disappear, that it's going to be replaced by something else.
[55:32.730 --> 55:35.270]  And no, it does not have to be that way.
[55:35.370 --> 55:39.850]  If you, if you lie back and let it happen, yeah, it'll happen, but you can fight for the things you believe in.
[55:39.930 --> 55:40.430]  Look at vinyl.
[55:40.550 --> 55:42.610]  Vinyl is coming back and CDs are disappearing.
[55:42.750 --> 55:43.450]  Who would have thought that?
[55:43.610 --> 55:47.230]  Well, we would have thought that, but well, a lot of people would have written that off.
[55:47.410 --> 55:57.690]  And the same thing with books, you know, I, if there were Kindles around in the, in the age of Homer, guarantee you, nobody would be reading the Odyssey right now because the versions would have changed or something would have gotten deleted.
[55:58.330 --> 56:04.110]  Books are the, the, the key to immortality as far as passing things down from generation to generation.
[56:04.350 --> 56:05.170]  That'll never change.
[56:05.430 --> 56:08.750]  And it's vital as a vital link, uh, in, in a historical sense.
[56:08.910 --> 56:13.730]  And, uh, as, uh, as we participate in society, it's that shared memory.
[56:14.030 --> 56:19.810]  And, uh, gosh, I, just from the coffee, the idea of having coffee there, I, I want you to have good coffee.
[56:20.030 --> 56:20.470]  It has to be good coffee.
[56:20.530 --> 56:20.670]  Yeah.
[56:20.850 --> 56:27.070]  And there's a lot of, like you said, you mentioned Singapore, the homogeneity of things like that.
[56:27.230 --> 56:31.330]  Um, and the kind of packaging of culture and community.
[56:31.590 --> 56:46.350]  Um, and you know, if you're forced to compete in some way where you have to skimp on the coffee and it ends up being kind of the same stuff you might get at any fast food place, you're not, you're not, um, building as, as, uh, discerning, uh, an audience,
[56:46.370 --> 56:49.370]  I think, for the community that the store creates.
[56:49.530 --> 56:58.130]  And, um, just that example alone, uh, has me concerned that you, you don't get overburdened too much in whatever renovating, uh, you might want to do.
[56:58.390 --> 57:03.190]  And, uh, and, uh, bringing a new business in, uh, for the future.
[57:03.450 --> 57:10.050]  Well, let's, let's, let's get this battle one first, because this is something that really has to, uh, uh, happen for, for there to be a future.
[57:10.270 --> 57:15.670]  How can people who are not able to make it to the hearing find out more, keep in contact, maybe offers of help?
[57:15.870 --> 57:17.230]  Do you have email addresses, websites?
[57:17.850 --> 57:18.170]  Absolutely.
[57:18.170 --> 57:26.430]  I can give out my email address and, um, and people can find, uh, the strand at, uh, strand books on Twitter as well.
[57:26.590 --> 57:28.530]  Uh, very responsive to their Twitter account.
[57:28.530 --> 57:30.350]  My email address is alex.
[57:30.470 --> 57:32.070]  I think it's Strand's bookstore, I think, right?
[57:32.070 --> 57:32.510]  Is it Strand?
[57:32.510 --> 57:33.010]  Strand Books.
[57:33.110 --> 57:33.550]  Strand Books.
[57:33.730 --> 57:33.850]  I'm sorry.
[57:33.930 --> 57:34.090]  Okay.
[57:34.190 --> 57:34.570]  There you go.
[57:34.650 --> 57:35.130]  Strand Books.
[57:35.590 --> 57:39.150]  Uh, my email address is alex at blackstone-law.com.
[57:39.310 --> 57:42.910]  If anybody wants to reach out, offers of help, we would love to see you there.
[57:43.030 --> 57:44.230]  We'd love to see people engaged.
[57:44.390 --> 57:50.750]  There will be the opportunity as well to submit testimonials and documentation, um, after this public hearing.
[57:51.010 --> 58:06.270]  But the real showdown is going to be, um, in person at the Strand, I'm sorry, at the, at the public hearing, uh, on Tuesday, December 4th, one center street, lower Manhattan, the ninth floor at 9 30 AM.
[58:06.650 --> 58:11.130]  Again, that's Tuesday, December 4th, 9 30 AM, one center street, the ninth floor.
[58:11.270 --> 58:12.110]  We want to see you there.
[58:12.190 --> 58:13.090]  We want to give you a t-shirt.
[58:13.210 --> 58:13.890]  We want to give you a button.
[58:13.910 --> 58:16.790]  We want to, we want to get your support on the record.
[58:16.830 --> 58:22.090]  This is our opportunity to be heard quite literally by the ears of the LPC.
[58:22.090 --> 58:24.650]  Uh, uh, will people be able to speak at this hearing themselves?
[58:25.110 --> 58:26.330]  People should be able to speak.
[58:26.490 --> 58:26.570]  Okay.
[58:26.690 --> 58:27.010]  Absolutely.
[58:27.490 --> 58:27.610]  Yeah.
[58:27.670 --> 58:29.310]  This is their opportunity to be heard too.
[58:29.450 --> 58:35.430]  If you disagree with what we're saying, come on down to this is a dialogue, but you know, we want to see our supporters out there.
[58:35.490 --> 58:42.510]  We want to see people who love the strand, support the strand, have known it for generations and want to keep it here in New York as a cultural landmark and cultural institution.
[58:42.890 --> 58:43.330]  All right.
[58:43.370 --> 58:46.190]  Well, we're going to certainly be keeping people updated on, on this story.
[58:46.830 --> 58:53.750]  Uh, Nancy Wyden, I want to thank you so much, not only for being here tonight, but for everything you've done for, for bookstores in New York, for literacy in general.
[58:53.990 --> 58:58.730]  And I sure hope, uh, you have, uh, uh, a long road ahead of doing just that.
[58:58.870 --> 58:59.470]  Thank you.
[58:59.630 --> 59:01.530]  This is such a spirited conversation.
[59:01.790 --> 59:05.430]  And it could go on for hours and, uh, we'll have, we'll have more in the future.
[59:05.570 --> 59:07.850]  You can write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[59:07.990 --> 59:08.710]  We'd love to hear from you.
[59:08.810 --> 59:12.050]  Please let us know how you feel about this and other items as well.
[59:12.130 --> 59:13.810]  And we will see you back here again next week.
[59:13.970 --> 59:15.170]  Stay tuned for the personal computer show.
[59:15.350 --> 59:15.810]  Good night.