[00:00.000 --> 00:05.780]  Or you can help WBAI again become a station known for programs, not just products.
[00:06.220 --> 00:06.800]  How?
[00:07.060 --> 00:08.420]  Thought you'd never ask.
[00:08.780 --> 00:10.040]  Become a BAI buddy.
[00:10.340 --> 00:14.580]  That's a minimum $10 a month donation for each of the next 12 months.
[00:14.900 --> 00:20.960]  Help end the heartbreak of psoriasis cures and other lotions, potions, and nostrums sold on the radio.
[00:21.220 --> 00:23.200]  By sending us money to make radio.
[00:23.480 --> 00:28.440]  Go to WBAI.org, our website, and become a BAI buddy.
[00:36.840 --> 00:40.040]  And the time is just about 8 p.m.
[00:40.420 --> 00:41.960]  on this Wednesday evening.
[00:42.060 --> 00:50.400]  You are listening to radio station WBAI 99.5 FM, WBAI.org, all over the place.
[00:50.920 --> 00:55.640]  And it's just about time for a special episode of Off the Hook.
[01:04.170 --> 01:05.650]  I ripped it off the wall.
[01:06.710 --> 01:08.610]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:09.210 --> 01:11.190]  Now I can't make a cough.
[01:11.930 --> 01:13.930]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:14.670 --> 01:16.490]  But if they could, they would.
[01:16.750 --> 01:17.410]  Bum, dilly, bum.
[01:17.590 --> 01:19.390]  But the best is fake, the worst.
[01:20.090 --> 01:21.890]  I hope that's understood.
[01:22.130 --> 01:22.870]  Bum, dilly, bum!
[02:50.640 --> 02:53.600]  A very good evening to all of you out there.
[02:54.100 --> 02:55.840]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:56.020 --> 02:56.600]  Rob T.
[02:56.780 --> 02:58.760]  Firefly here with you.
[02:59.000 --> 03:06.340]  And I am joined in the studio by a couple of, well, our regulars are all on assignment in other places.
[03:06.340 --> 03:08.340]  So we are joined by some irregulars.
[03:09.320 --> 03:11.580]  Sitting across from me is Neo.
[03:11.960 --> 03:12.880]  Saludos a la comunidad.
[03:14.260 --> 03:14.700]  Exactly.
[03:15.000 --> 03:19.200]  And sitting in another chair is our Off the Hook studio audience, whose name is Gila.
[03:19.420 --> 03:19.660]  Hi.
[03:20.820 --> 03:23.460]  I'm very excited to get to sit in a big kid chair tonight.
[03:23.660 --> 03:23.800]  Excellent.
[03:23.800 --> 03:24.440]  This is very exciting.
[03:24.580 --> 03:26.060]  Our normal person for the evening.
[03:27.020 --> 03:28.000]  That's your job.
[03:28.100 --> 03:28.780]  That's a big job.
[03:29.060 --> 03:31.420]  I don't know if I would trust me with that, but okay.
[03:31.980 --> 03:32.340]  Excellent.
[03:32.500 --> 03:33.620]  Would you trust people like us?
[03:34.880 --> 03:36.100]  I do my best.
[03:36.380 --> 03:37.380]  I've trusted you today.
[03:37.560 --> 03:42.300]  Emmanuel and Kyle are out on assignment on the dark side of the moon somewhere.
[03:43.000 --> 03:49.180]  Our other regulars are off doing such things as you'll hear about in our future installments.
[03:50.020 --> 03:52.440]  But tonight, we've got a lot going on.
[03:52.740 --> 03:55.940]  I'll start off by saying that, yes, this is a fundraising episode.
[03:56.580 --> 03:57.540]  Please don't go away.
[03:58.140 --> 03:58.920]  We love you.
[03:59.080 --> 03:59.500]  Stick around.
[03:59.720 --> 04:01.960]  Yeah, we do our best.
[04:01.960 --> 04:05.180]  But we are still fundraising here at WBAI.
[04:05.280 --> 04:12.820]  We are still doing what we can to encourage you, our listeners, to throw in and help support us and what we do here.
[04:13.460 --> 04:24.280]  And to that end, we have a couple of premiums that we're offering from our recent hacker conference, the Circle of Hope, which took place in July.
[04:24.920 --> 04:30.200]  And our regular listeners will have heard about these things before, but I'll tell you now.
[04:30.720 --> 04:42.840]  We have a set of a full set of all the talks from the Circle of Hope that is a full set of literally dozens and dozens and dozens of talks.
[04:43.520 --> 04:45.080]  All three main tracks.
[04:48.180 --> 04:50.600]  And we have high-quality videos.
[04:50.600 --> 04:54.240]  We also have high-quality audio MP3s thrown in there.
[04:54.320 --> 05:04.040]  And you can get this in the form of a USB flash drive or in the form of, if you're like me and you love your hard media, a set of 100 DVDs.
[05:04.140 --> 05:05.480]  Actually, a little more than 100, I think.
[05:06.840 --> 05:12.740]  And if you're interested in getting these, we have donated a bunch of them to the station in exchange for your support.
[05:12.840 --> 05:14.200]  We make no money from this.
[05:14.360 --> 05:18.680]  We actually take a bit of a bath on this, but it's...
[05:18.680 --> 05:22.640]  It's all in the good cause of keeping the airwaves open for the public.
[05:23.020 --> 05:23.420]  Yes.
[05:23.600 --> 05:24.180]  Wait a second, Rob.
[05:24.260 --> 05:28.000]  What is the minimum donation for the set of the Circle of Hope collection?
[05:28.000 --> 05:37.440]  The minimum donation for the set on flash drive on USB stick is a minimum of $100 for the Circle of Hope full set, flash drives edition.
[05:37.860 --> 05:44.420]  For the Circle of Hope full set of 100 plus DVDs, that is a minimum contribution of $200.
[05:44.980 --> 05:54.600]  However, if those are both maybe a little rich for your blood or you're just not interested in these talks, you are still encouraged to donate any amount that you feel comfortable with.
[05:55.360 --> 05:58.440]  Even, you know, even a few dollars helps us keep the light on for a little bit.
[05:58.580 --> 06:02.940]  So if you would like to pledge, go to give2wbai.org.
[06:03.160 --> 06:05.680]  That's give, the numeral 2, wbai.org.
[06:05.840 --> 06:08.360]  Or give the word 2-T-O-W-B-A-I.org.
[06:08.360 --> 06:09.200]  We'll take you there as well.
[06:09.680 --> 06:13.760]  And search for the Circle of Hope full set, flash drives, or DVDs.
[06:14.280 --> 06:18.540]  You can also call on the phone like we like doing here on Off the Hook.
[06:18.540 --> 06:24.780]  And give a call to 516-620-3602.
[06:26.960 --> 06:36.340]  And tell them that, tell the nice operator on the other side of that line that you would like the Circle of Hope full set flash drives, or you would like the Circle of Hope full set DVDs.
[06:37.000 --> 06:41.960]  And, or, you know, just tell them however much you would like to donate.
[06:42.280 --> 06:44.800]  But can I tell you why I asked about that?
[06:44.960 --> 06:45.580]  Tell me why you asked.
[06:45.580 --> 06:46.080]  I will tell you why.
[06:46.220 --> 06:50.480]  Because it's three tracks that were each three days long.
[06:50.680 --> 06:50.880]  Yes.
[06:50.880 --> 06:58.120]  So functionally, if you wanted to, you could plug in and spend nine days watching all of the material.
[06:58.120 --> 07:01.580]  So you could either amortize the $100 or $200 over the nine days.
[07:01.580 --> 07:02.500]  That's not a lot of money.
[07:02.740 --> 07:03.260]  You could, yes.
[07:03.360 --> 07:08.000]  Or you could take the, if you get the DVDs, take nine days.
[07:08.420 --> 07:09.780]  It's a $200 vacation.
[07:10.660 --> 07:12.680]  It's a $200 educational course.
[07:12.820 --> 07:13.880]  All of these things are true.
[07:13.880 --> 07:19.120]  So it's like a $200 university course in nine days, in your pajamas, in your house.
[07:19.840 --> 07:21.480]  Yeah, if pajamas are your thing.
[07:24.220 --> 07:24.940]  But, but...
[07:24.940 --> 07:26.500]  In the comfort of your own home.
[07:26.620 --> 07:27.780]  In your lounge pants, whatever.
[07:28.440 --> 07:29.160]  Or not at all.
[07:29.260 --> 07:29.720]  You never know.
[07:29.740 --> 07:30.680]  All of these things are true.
[07:30.680 --> 07:37.900]  Or, you know, if you dress in a full three-piece suit during the, during your evening television watching or what have you, you know, that's okay too.
[07:38.000 --> 07:38.880]  Whatever floats your boat.
[07:38.880 --> 07:42.280]  But I'm saying it's $200 for nine days of material.
[07:42.560 --> 07:45.460]  You know, you've, you've been in the studio audience for, for a very long time.
[07:45.600 --> 07:51.780]  And, uh, you know, we've, I've waited till this point to do the Bruce Springsteen reach into the crowd and pull you up and, and, and give you a microphone.
[07:51.980 --> 07:52.560]  And I'm so glad I did.
[07:52.560 --> 07:54.360]  Are you saying that's my Courtney Cox moment right now?
[07:54.440 --> 07:55.160]  You absolutely are.
[07:55.360 --> 07:55.680]  And...
[07:55.680 --> 07:56.480]  Do I have to cut my hair?
[07:56.900 --> 08:02.000]  Um, I might have to cut mine, but, uh, but, uh, yeah, you're, you're really earning your keep here.
[08:02.000 --> 08:05.040]  And, uh, we're trying to do our bit to earn the station's keep.
[08:05.320 --> 08:14.540]  Um, so once again, uh, if you pledge 516-620-3602, if you call that number or go to give2wbai.org, we have a limited amount of the DVD sets.
[08:14.800 --> 08:22.380]  Um, we have more flash drives available than DVDs because, you know, it's, it's kind of a hassle to mail a set of over a hundred DVDs.
[08:22.380 --> 08:23.860]  And we are doing that ourselves.
[08:23.880 --> 08:25.320]  We are eating the postage.
[08:25.440 --> 08:29.100]  We are doing, you know, we, we are schlepping them to the post office.
[08:29.440 --> 08:37.240]  I was just saying, at a hundred DVDs, if you watch just one every weekend, that will keep you tidy all the way to the next Hope.
[08:37.800 --> 08:38.620]  Well, hold on a second.
[08:38.680 --> 08:40.340]  I can't say the next Hope now, can I?
[08:40.360 --> 08:42.820]  I should say the Hope 13, which is yet to come.
[08:42.900 --> 08:44.160]  The next iteration of the conference.
[08:44.380 --> 08:44.640]  Yes.
[08:44.780 --> 08:44.940]  Okay.
[08:45.240 --> 08:51.920]  So, uh, moving on from this for now, but, uh, you can also, I should mention, you can also be a BAI buddy, um, be our buddy with benefits.
[08:51.920 --> 09:05.580]  And what that means is that, uh, on a monthly basis, you can choose any amount that you are comfortable donating, um, on a monthly basis, automatically, just like, uh, just like you're, you're subscribing to something or crowdfunding something or, you know,
[09:05.720 --> 09:07.080]  doing, doing whatever it is you do.
[09:07.100 --> 09:19.440]  Uh, but to automatically give some smaller amounts, maybe you don't want to give us a hundred dollars at once or $200 at once or whatever, but, uh, you could choose some smaller amounts that will be automatically charged to you and benefit the station.
[09:19.440 --> 09:25.900]  And it gives us something that's pretty much unheard of in the non-profit listener-supported sphere, which is a dependable income.
[09:26.100 --> 09:27.580]  Good Lord, those things exist?
[09:27.760 --> 09:27.980]  Yeah.
[09:28.120 --> 09:31.220]  And so that comes with a whole other set of benefits.
[09:31.360 --> 09:38.660]  And you can find that on give2wbai.org or you could call 516-620-3602 and express interest in the BAI Buddy program.
[09:38.940 --> 09:42.400]  Be sure to indicate that your favorite show here is off the hook.
[09:42.560 --> 09:44.060]  I mean, it's definitely one of mine.
[09:44.960 --> 09:46.200]  And we'll go from there.
[09:47.840 --> 09:50.420]  Do you think we've plugged enough or should we plug some more?
[09:50.580 --> 09:52.680]  I would like to think we've plugged enough.
[09:52.880 --> 09:59.380]  And I am going to hope that our listeners, enough of them, are willing to throw in on this.
[09:59.640 --> 10:06.080]  Whether it's live now or whether it's later, maybe you're listening to us on a podcast in the mysterious future at some point.
[10:06.580 --> 10:07.620]  And that's okay, too.
[10:09.340 --> 10:11.060]  The future is mysterious to us all.
[10:11.060 --> 10:17.620]  But if we could make it a little less mysterious with a reliable income stream, that would help us out here.
[10:17.660 --> 10:18.480]  That definitely takes the edge off.
[10:18.660 --> 10:25.160]  So, yes, 516-620-3602 or give2wbai.org.
[10:25.800 --> 10:27.680]  We've got a couple of news stories I'd like to talk about.
[10:28.480 --> 10:31.420]  There is one that I just love so much.
[10:31.420 --> 10:34.820]  It's from across the pond, as they say, in the UK.
[10:35.180 --> 10:45.120]  The NHS in the UK, the National Health Service, has been told by their government that they will be banned from, well, getting a certain piece of office equipment in.
[10:45.340 --> 10:58.740]  And I'm going to throw it out to our audience and say, what is it that you think an office to a large governmental service is still buying regularly in 2018 that they maybe shouldn't be?
[11:00.180 --> 11:01.020]  Carbon paper.
[11:01.680 --> 11:03.360]  Close, close, very close.
[11:03.580 --> 11:04.600]  Good answer, good answer.
[11:04.720 --> 11:05.240]  Thank you, thank you.
[11:05.380 --> 11:05.820]  Survey says...
[11:06.420 --> 11:07.620]  Eh, darn it.
[11:08.220 --> 11:12.820]  No, what they are actually being banned from buying any more of is fax machines.
[11:13.440 --> 11:15.240]  You guys remember fax machines.
[11:15.420 --> 11:16.120]  Yes, we do.
[11:16.160 --> 11:19.460]  My doctor's office has a fax machine, and they use it on a very regular basis.
[11:19.480 --> 11:21.660]  A lot of our doctor's offices still have fax machines.
[11:21.880 --> 11:25.200]  And in the UK, so much is still being done on fax machines.
[11:25.200 --> 11:28.280]  And this has been described as absurd.
[11:29.400 --> 11:39.120]  In July, the Royal College of Surgeons, they have revealed that nearly 9,000 fax machines were still in use across the NHS in England.
[11:39.340 --> 11:40.620]  That's not even the rest of the UK.
[11:41.300 --> 11:47.280]  The Department of Health said a change to more modern communication methods was needed to improve patient safety and cybersecurity.
[11:48.120 --> 11:52.480]  In place of fax machines, the Department of Health has suggested the use of secure email instead.
[11:52.480 --> 11:54.720]  This, as reported by the BBC.
[11:56.680 --> 11:57.900]  And, I don't know.
[11:58.560 --> 12:03.120]  We have people in all sorts of lines of work in this room, in all sorts of professional lives.
[12:03.280 --> 12:05.080]  I've lived a varied one myself.
[12:05.120 --> 12:16.460]  And I can say that in recent times, I've worked in corporate offices that still relied heavily on fax machines to the point where they would email a document, print it out, fax it somewhere.
[12:16.460 --> 12:22.480]  Whoever received it on the other end would scan the fax, save it as a PDF, and file that electronically.
[12:22.920 --> 12:29.240]  Or even better, they would send you a form that has to be filled out, but then it's printed, and then gets faxed back.
[12:29.800 --> 12:30.580]  Even better.
[12:30.580 --> 12:41.980]  So, yeah, it's 2018, three years past 2015, when Back to the Future Part 2 predicted that we'd all be heavily faxing in 2015.
[12:42.280 --> 12:50.780]  So, yeah, it's a fun little story of a governmental agency being dragged, kicking, and screaming into the 21st century.
[12:50.780 --> 12:52.520]  I do have a question, though.
[12:52.860 --> 12:53.120]  Yes.
[12:53.300 --> 12:58.420]  Being that, as the studio audience, I think I kind of provide the non-hacker perspective.
[12:58.940 --> 13:12.760]  But my question is, the fax machine is probably less vulnerable to some sort of security issue in a different way than email would be.
[13:12.840 --> 13:15.400]  But, you know, you can see the pile of paper.
[13:15.400 --> 13:20.200]  So, I've never felt like my medical information is particularly secure in the fax machine.
[13:20.940 --> 13:24.060]  But, you know, there's not going to be a massive hack attack on it.
[13:24.200 --> 13:32.560]  The only benefit that I've ever noticed from fax, or at least that I've been told, is that you can tell when someone is interfering with the line.
[13:32.740 --> 13:33.040]  Right.
[13:33.180 --> 13:38.400]  So, the image will not come out straightforward, or it'll appear garbled, or somehow misaligned.
[13:38.460 --> 13:40.300]  And that's just tampering evidence.
[13:41.020 --> 13:44.600]  It's no different than putting a sticker on a sealed envelope, and then seeing that the sticker is broken.
[13:46.000 --> 13:49.600]  So, nonetheless, it's still treated because it's a live transmission.
[13:50.100 --> 13:57.540]  Many people still consider it to be live, analog, and therefore, in the moment, therefore, it must be correct for all of this functionality to be going on.
[13:58.620 --> 13:59.400]  Go figure.
[13:59.880 --> 14:03.420]  But with emails, it's very easy to email the wrong person.
[14:04.120 --> 14:09.160]  So, if you have a username, for example, I will use example.com, because that's what it's there for.
[14:09.340 --> 14:09.500]  Sure.
[14:09.620 --> 14:14.620]  Who is noone at example.com, and you send it to nobody at example.com.
[14:14.740 --> 14:18.060]  Well, nobody technically has just received an email they really shouldn't have.
[14:18.380 --> 14:18.760]  Mm-hmm.
[14:18.760 --> 14:20.860]  And that opens up a new can of worms.
[14:21.760 --> 14:29.360]  Yeah, talking of cans of worms, let's skip a few continents over, but stay within the Commonwealth.
[14:29.600 --> 14:30.020]  Australia.
[14:30.400 --> 14:31.260]  Oh, boy.
[14:31.600 --> 14:36.560]  Our friends in Australia have been dealing with something extra special.
[14:36.560 --> 14:41.680]  They've had basically a new anti-encryption law in the works for some time.
[14:42.440 --> 14:50.540]  Technical experts and freedom of speech experts and all sorts of people have been loudly decrying this law.
[14:50.700 --> 14:52.720]  It's basically a law on the books.
[14:55.780 --> 15:07.640]  Basically, the remit is that makers of software and hardware devices will have to build encryption backdoors for the Australian government if they want to function in the company.
[15:07.800 --> 15:10.680]  For our listeners at home who are playing the drinking game, that's two shots.
[15:10.820 --> 15:12.060]  Two shots in the last minute.
[15:13.200 --> 15:16.660]  Yeah, as reported in TechCrunch, the group of U.S.
[15:16.760 --> 15:23.880]  tech giants, including Apple, Google, and Microsoft, have collectively denounced the new so-called anti-encryption law passed by Australian Parliament last week.
[15:24.820 --> 15:31.320]  And this law has had so many people, as I said, basically loudly shouting about what a bad idea this is.
[15:32.340 --> 15:42.540]  The Reformed Government Surveillance Coalition, which is an organization out of Australia, says, The new Australian law is deeply flawed, overly broad, and lacking in adequate independent oversight over the new authorities.
[15:43.020 --> 15:49.240]  The tech companies added that the law would undermine the cybersecurity, human rights, or the right to privacy of their users.
[15:49.460 --> 15:58.160]  Now, the law allows Australian police and the intelligence... the Australian police and intel agencies wide-reaching powers to issue technical notices.
[15:58.520 --> 16:07.980]  And that's the term, technical notices, which are essentially things that can force companies and even websites operating in Australia to help the government undermine any encryption, insert backdoors, et cetera, et cetera.
[16:08.180 --> 16:11.160]  And there's very little oversight potentially allowing abuse of the system.
[16:11.280 --> 16:17.960]  And because the notices will almost always be issued with a gag order, any technical notices are served behind closed doors in secret.
[16:18.140 --> 16:19.780]  There's no public accountability for this.
[16:19.900 --> 16:27.560]  We've talked on this program about, like, military courts and things happening behind closed doors and getting summonses that you're not allowed to talk about.
[16:28.460 --> 16:31.160]  So, you know, this is happening.
[16:31.300 --> 16:32.280]  This is now in Australia.
[16:32.840 --> 16:37.300]  Companies that refuse to comply with the demands in a technical notice can be served heavy financial penalties.
[16:41.220 --> 16:41.880]  Hang on a second.
[16:41.940 --> 16:42.820]  Let me see if I can do this sound right.
[16:43.600 --> 16:47.580]  That's the sound of my head hitting the microphone again and again and again.
[16:47.940 --> 16:50.120]  It seems that this will never go away.
[16:50.280 --> 16:55.920]  The notion that, oh, just because the good guys have access to a back door, nobody else will use it.
[16:55.920 --> 16:57.500]  Okay, let's rewind back.
[16:57.940 --> 17:00.500]  Remember those premiums we were talking about, those lectures from the HOPE conference?
[17:00.700 --> 17:00.880]  Yes.
[17:01.040 --> 17:06.200]  I seem to remember something about a TSA key and how key escrow is a bad idea.
[17:06.480 --> 17:06.840]  Absolutely.
[17:07.080 --> 17:10.840]  Let's rehash this for the folks who weren't there or maybe missed it or haven't seen the show yet.
[17:10.960 --> 17:14.220]  We have some very good experts explaining this, but much better than I can.
[17:14.740 --> 17:23.000]  Rule number one is just because you have the key does not mean it's going to be in the good guys' hands always, and not necessarily guys' either.
[17:23.000 --> 17:27.860]  Two, it expects that people are going to act responsibly with this key.
[17:28.480 --> 17:42.600]  So, for example, in the case of the TSA, you don't flaunt it in front of the Washington Post, where you can get a good image of what it looks like and then use it whenever you like, or design them whenever you like, and use them on whatever piece of luggage you want.
[17:43.100 --> 17:43.280]  Yes.
[17:43.280 --> 17:49.520]  Three, any sort of backdoor is an opening for abuse, especially when...
[17:49.520 --> 17:53.940]  Now, I'm not sure how Australian jurisprudence works.
[17:54.120 --> 17:55.180]  I'm not an expert.
[17:55.420 --> 17:58.520]  Feel free to send corrections wherever it goes.
[17:59.560 --> 18:16.820]  But my understanding is that a warrant is not required in order to request a backdoor to be used in order to get either evidence or information from one of the people who may be subject to one of these backdoors.
[18:16.820 --> 18:20.200]  I can't think of a better word for that, because it's just, it's a backdoor.
[18:22.600 --> 18:37.580]  So, not only do you not know that it's happening, not only do you not know what is being affected, and since we now brought up, you know, human rights, the right to privacy, which is non-existent in this country, I don't know, I believe Australia does not have a bill of rights.
[18:37.700 --> 18:42.980]  This may actually foster a movement in that direction, specifically to cover privacy.
[18:42.980 --> 18:45.200]  Again, I have not been on the other side of the planet.
[18:45.460 --> 18:46.460]  Feel free to correct me.
[18:48.640 --> 18:55.520]  All of this is just, it seems too much abuse and not enough substance, not enough logic behind it.
[18:55.680 --> 18:56.900]  It wasn't reasoned.
[18:57.060 --> 19:00.980]  Maybe there is something leading up to this, or did they just whip this out because...
[19:02.000 --> 19:13.240]  Well, this is also something that the tactics used to get this passed are very blatant, and something we've talked about, and something which actually ties into a big story we're going to be talking about later, and we have a very special guest to talk with about it.
[19:13.460 --> 19:28.600]  But the Australian government won this law in part by accusing the Labour Party of using scare tactics, saying that the opposition party was choosing to, quote, allow terrorists and pedophiles to continue their evil work in order to engage in point scoring.
[19:28.860 --> 19:33.900]  That said by Australian Defence Minister Christopher Pyne in a tweet that he since deleted.
[19:34.200 --> 19:34.440]  Really?
[19:34.540 --> 19:36.580]  This sounds more like America, to be quite honest.
[19:36.760 --> 19:36.900]  Yeah.
[19:37.100 --> 19:40.780]  Labour caved into the pressure, and party leader Bill Shorten instructed his members to vote for the bill.
[19:41.600 --> 19:47.200]  That the party would offer amendments to the law once passed, in the coming months, while keeping, quote, Australians safer over Christmas.
[19:47.620 --> 19:48.440]  Uh-huh.
[19:48.660 --> 19:54.080]  So this was the party leader saying, okay, this law is terrible now, but we'll pass it now, and then later we'll fix it.
[19:54.460 --> 20:00.200]  Later we'll roll back some of these terrible things about this bill, and we...
[20:00.200 --> 20:01.000]  I don't know.
[20:01.200 --> 20:02.620]  Is anyone taking numbers on this?
[20:02.720 --> 20:02.760]  I'm sorry, Alex isn't here.
[20:02.840 --> 20:06.840]  I'm not a legal scholar, but I don't think that's the way it works.
[20:07.280 --> 20:11.060]  So first we're going to break your bones, and then we'll mend them.
[20:11.420 --> 20:11.780]  Mm-hmm.
[20:12.180 --> 20:13.340]  That makes a lot of sense.
[20:13.460 --> 20:13.900]  Sure.
[20:14.100 --> 20:15.340]  Just like the Patriot Act.
[20:15.540 --> 20:15.940]  Hmm.
[20:17.320 --> 20:18.680]  Guys, it didn't work here.
[20:19.100 --> 20:19.540]  Wow.
[20:19.940 --> 20:33.820]  Well, we'll definitely be keeping an eye on this, and of course, our Australian listeners, we know you're out there, and we'd like to hear from you, especially, about your feelings on this, and any thoughts and repercussions and such that this might have.
[20:34.220 --> 20:36.840]  Of course, anyone is encouraged to get in touch with us at any time.
[20:37.020 --> 20:40.280]  O-T-H at 2600.com is our email address.
[20:40.600 --> 20:47.900]  You can tweet at us at Hacker Radio Show on Twitter, and on Mastodon, you can reach us at Hacker Radio Show at Mastodon.social.
[20:48.040 --> 20:49.400]  We are Mastodon.social.
[20:49.640 --> 20:49.880]  Yeah.
[20:50.180 --> 20:52.360]  We're living that life.
[20:53.120 --> 20:53.960]  We are fancy.
[20:54.220 --> 20:55.320]  We are indeed fancy.
[20:55.320 --> 21:07.560]  So there's been a big story regarding Tumblr going on for the past couple of weeks, and I've brought on a guest that I think can really add to this discussion on this.
[21:08.640 --> 21:21.800]  I'd like to introduce Dr. Kit Stubbs, PhD, who is a sex educator, has spoken at Hope, and has all sorts of street cred that I can't even begin to list on here.
[21:21.920 --> 21:22.940]  But Kit, can you hear us?
[21:24.140 --> 21:24.560]  Hello.
[21:24.980 --> 21:25.400]  Hello.
[21:25.800 --> 21:26.200]  There you are.
[21:26.740 --> 21:26.880]  Yeah.
[21:26.980 --> 21:27.600]  Thanks for having me.
[21:28.120 --> 21:29.180]  Thank you so much for joining us.
[21:29.300 --> 21:29.840]  Very kind.
[21:30.740 --> 21:36.100]  Now listen, I wanted to get your input on this story because you are, as I said, a sex educator.
[21:36.260 --> 21:39.420]  And can you talk a little bit about the work you do in general?
[21:40.280 --> 21:40.700]  Yeah.
[21:40.900 --> 21:44.820]  So I actually got my start... So my PhD is actually in robotics.
[21:45.740 --> 21:48.200]  I got my start making very nerdy sex toys.
[21:48.640 --> 21:55.200]  So a while ago on the internet, you may have seen a sex toy with a little tiny TARDIS inside it that I made.
[21:55.660 --> 21:59.320]  There's also a light up dildo that I made that I've gotten to show off at Hope.
[22:00.180 --> 22:12.580]  So I got into this kind of through tech and sex tech, and I've gone on to found a nonprofit, the Effing Foundation for Sex Positivity, E-F-F-I-N-G dot O-R-G.
[22:12.820 --> 22:19.760]  And so our mission is to reduce sexual shame, normalize conversations about sex by fostering sex positive artists and educators.
[22:20.300 --> 22:23.200]  So yeah, it's been a very interesting journey.
[22:24.040 --> 22:24.520]  Excellent.
[22:24.620 --> 22:27.500]  And of course, you've presented, I think, at Hope multiple times.
[22:27.680 --> 22:29.320]  You were definitely at this most recent Hope.
[22:30.180 --> 22:35.800]  And yeah, what did you present on in this most recent Hope?
[22:36.400 --> 22:37.500]  Ah, this last Hope.
[22:37.620 --> 22:39.280]  This was the Sex Geek Returns.
[22:39.300 --> 22:42.660]  I basically had my first, like, ask me anything.
[22:43.380 --> 22:48.440]  Just, so we just had a space where folks could come up and ask their questions about sex and sexuality.
[22:48.440 --> 22:52.380]  And I sort of did my best to provide answers and resources.
[22:52.380 --> 22:53.280]  It was a lot of fun.
[22:53.720 --> 23:09.160]  You know, just being able to have that space, to have just regular old conversations about sex and learn things is sadly all too rare, as I think the Tumblr situation demonstrates.
[23:09.160 --> 23:09.320]  Great.
[23:09.640 --> 23:14.520]  And for those unfamiliar, could you describe the Tumblr situation briefly?
[23:15.080 --> 23:16.000]  Yes.
[23:16.460 --> 23:27.740]  So basically, Tumblr, so Tumblr has decreed that they are banning all adult content from their platform.
[23:28.340 --> 23:41.180]  And this is having a huge impact on a lot of communities, particularly folks who are from various marginalized groups.
[23:41.400 --> 23:52.420]  Queer people, people who are kinky, people who were using the internet to kind of make community, and meet community sort of around their sexualities.
[23:53.400 --> 23:54.540]  This is really devastating.
[23:54.740 --> 23:55.880]  It's devastating for artists.
[23:56.080 --> 23:59.200]  It's devastating for some sex workers and performers.
[24:00.900 --> 24:13.400]  It's, yeah, basically, suddenly, Tumblr is, you know, well, of course, nobody wanted to see, there were concerns about actual, there were real concerns about child pornography and human trafficking.
[24:14.300 --> 24:21.180]  This seems to be a very, like a disproportionate response, right?
[24:21.380 --> 24:27.020]  And looking at severe censorship around sort of sexuality and sexual health topics.
[24:27.260 --> 24:27.640]  Right.
[24:27.860 --> 24:31.780]  And Tumblr, for those unfamiliar, is basically a blogging site, a social networking site.
[24:32.740 --> 24:38.820]  There's been a focus on sharing images, multimedia, but also textual blog posts and things.
[24:39.180 --> 24:50.820]  And it has really attracted, like, like any service, it has attracted its share of users who would post and or share and or consume adult content.
[24:51.660 --> 25:03.660]  And this is something that they announced, let me see if I can find the date on this, they announced very recently, that they were going to basically pull the plug on all adult content, as of December 17.
[25:04.480 --> 25:08.200]  Leaving users really a very short time to try and find something else.
[25:09.880 --> 25:21.340]  And also, Tumblr has been a has been a platform platform for, I don't know off the top of my head, I want to say like, maybe 10 years or so, at least, at least, at least, at least, yeah, at least it's been a major player for that long.
[25:21.820 --> 25:27.360]  And so this is years and years and years of content that people are suddenly going to lose access to.
[25:28.040 --> 25:46.960]  And this has, this has been fairly devastating, as you've said, and I really have been led by this whole situation to really question the role of sort of freely available, freely accessible social media, in the sharing of not only adult content, of say,
[25:47.120 --> 26:00.260]  the entertainment variety, but also of the educational variety, such a sex education, sex positivity, just general info for those in the LGBTQIA plus community, and, and so on from there.
[26:00.740 --> 26:10.080]  The social media sort of landscape has evolved to such a prominent part in the lives of all who use it and, and, and beyond that.
[26:10.500 --> 26:19.480]  And having this kind of plug pulled on short notice really, I think, throws throws into sharp relief how much people have grown to depend on this sort of thing.
[26:20.880 --> 26:22.200]  Yeah, it's absolutely true.
[26:22.340 --> 26:39.280]  And I mean, to have that followed up by Facebook's new terms forms of service, which seemed like, which are also like absolutely chilling all kinds of speech about sex, like even being able to express interest in sex.
[26:40.940 --> 26:51.900]  You know, there's, there's, one would normally think there was a difference between like exploiting people and just talking about sex, saying you're interested in having sex or, you know, communicating sexual information.
[26:51.900 --> 26:57.520]  Um, but yes, they, they are in fact banning quote, implicit sexual solicit solicitation.
[26:57.880 --> 27:04.720]  So use of sexual slang, nude images, sexual partner preference, and even just expressing interest in sex.
[27:04.900 --> 27:06.500]  Like this is, this is awful.
[27:06.740 --> 27:08.720]  This is awful for so many reasons.
[27:08.740 --> 27:10.740]  This seems like so much overkill.
[27:10.860 --> 27:13.520]  I mean, I could say, for example, you should come up and see me sometime.
[27:13.520 --> 27:14.740]  Oh no, now you're banned.
[27:14.980 --> 27:15.620]  What, what, what?
[27:15.620 --> 27:17.040]  Oh, it's ludicrous.
[27:17.500 --> 27:28.160]  Um, so for folks who might aren't, may not be aware, um, a number of groups are kind of speculating and I'm looking at, there's an article on out.
[27:28.420 --> 27:29.880]  I've got one up here from the establishment.
[27:30.160 --> 27:42.480]  Um, the electronic, uh, Freedom Foundation has also talked about this, that we, that, that this is most likely a consequence of, uh, SESTA and FOSTA, which, which I'll explain.
[27:42.480 --> 27:57.540]  So, um, ah, for your, for your listeners who donate and get access to the hope talks, Ms. Maggie Mayhem gave an excellent talk this past hope on the impact of SESTA and FOSTA from a sex worker perspective, but that's where this is coming from.
[27:57.860 --> 28:01.780]  So SESTA and FOSTA were bills passed.
[28:02.060 --> 28:04.540]  This is the fight online sex trafficking act.
[28:04.720 --> 28:07.820]  That's FOSTA and the stop enabling sex to traffickers act.
[28:08.000 --> 28:14.020]  Those were passed in March by the house, by the house and the Senate, bipartisan support for these.
[28:14.300 --> 28:23.060]  And basically what that law did was it poked holes in section two 30 of the 1996 communications decency act.
[28:23.260 --> 28:35.320]  So generally what we had with, with that decency act was that if, if a platform, like platforms are not responsible for their content that their users post, right?
[28:35.660 --> 28:57.140]  That was what we had now with SESTA FOSTA, there is an exception for quote, uh, like sex trafficking, which makes no distinction between, you know, consensual sex work and actual like harm, you know, human, you know, kidnapping or harm to humans.
[28:57.280 --> 28:57.400]  Right.
[28:57.400 --> 29:10.700]  And so now with SESTA FOSTA, a site is responsible for any kind of sex work ads, for instance, anything that might be facilitating sex work, whether or not they know the content is there.
[29:10.860 --> 29:16.260]  So sites can sue tech companies who have content related to sex work on their websites.
[29:16.460 --> 29:18.020]  That's what SESTA FOSTA does.
[29:18.200 --> 29:18.600]  Right.
[29:18.780 --> 29:30.420]  And, uh, apparently the Tumblr situation was, uh, I think it's generally understood to have been brought on by Apple removing the Tumblr app from their app store, um, due to the app enabling access to this adult content.
[29:30.620 --> 29:38.940]  So Tumblr responded by, uh, by just zapping adult content to get their app back on the store, which, uh, which is very interesting.
[29:38.980 --> 29:47.560]  I mean, we've, we're, we're well experienced with, uh, what's known as sort of common carrier status, um, where like the telephone company isn't responsible for phone calls.
[29:47.680 --> 29:55.600]  You make on it, the content of those calls, you know, the, the libraries are not responsible for content you might be offended by in a book, uh, things like that.
[29:55.700 --> 30:04.960]  But, uh, seeing, seeing this sort of sharp change, which I think, uh, I think SESTA and FOSTA were a very, um, sharp turn in how these things had traditionally been handled.
[30:05.580 --> 30:16.820]  Um, and now we're, now we're seeing this on Tumblr and there's so much, um, speculation as to what this means, not only for, I mean, Tumblr is a, is a specific service.
[30:16.820 --> 30:21.740]  It's owned by, um, it's owned by Yahoo, which is owned by Verizon, right now.
[30:22.000 --> 30:36.540]  So, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's a corporate property, but, uh, this, uh, this could have far reaching consequences outside that, what that particular business decides to do with itself to anybody who wishes to, um, host alternatives and, uh, or, or, you know,
[30:36.800 --> 30:38.460]  sites that, uh, that would allow such things.
[30:38.660 --> 30:48.180]  So, and once you've opened the door to a moralistic, you know, if you are a common carrier or a content, uh, mechanism to provide information to the public.
[30:48.460 --> 30:48.900]  Okay.
[30:49.020 --> 30:57.740]  So if Tumblr's responsible for the content of Tumblr, then I as an ISP am also responsible for the content of my millions of users.
[30:58.380 --> 31:03.480]  Suddenly this gets a little bit larger than manageable sizes, and this does not scale.
[31:04.060 --> 31:04.580]  Right.
[31:04.760 --> 31:15.960]  And like we were seeing with the, with the Australia story, um, they came under the guise of sex crimes, under the guise of, uh, you know, terrorists and pedophiles, uh, pedophiles, uh, pedophiles.
[31:16.160 --> 31:23.300]  I can, I can speak professional radio maker, um, pedophiles, but, uh, they, um, there, there's so much chatter going on.
[31:23.400 --> 31:31.800]  I've, I was, I was pointed to a, uh, Tumblr comment by someone called Lunaria Gold, uh, by a listener who, who is, uh, talking about how this is not just Tumblr.
[31:31.940 --> 31:43.280]  I mean, this person writes, uh, they came for Craigslist personals first because that's the oldest trick in the book, sneakily taking down the quote perverts under the guise of vague high morality goals and working slowly up from the bottom, picking off larger and larger targets.
[31:43.480 --> 31:47.960]  Few people cared about Craigslist because of the stereotype of scary unwashed creeps trawling for sex online.
[31:48.080 --> 31:50.600]  That wasn't so familiar or cute, so it was fair game.
[31:51.040 --> 31:57.960]  Um, but now Tumblr is biting at the artist's heels and suddenly there's a bit more noise because artists aren't supposed to be treated like, uh, exploitive, are they?
[31:58.580 --> 32:03.980]  Um, however, even, even now the hair splitting over what's porn and therefore garbage and not art shows that attitudes are not so different.
[32:04.120 --> 32:07.980]  It's still the same divisive, dangerous, us-versus-them mentality that's so easily exploited.
[32:08.700 --> 32:11.340]  Um, they came for the perverts and it wasn't a pervert.
[32:11.440 --> 32:13.840]  Well, it's really first they came for the sex workers.
[32:14.120 --> 32:14.200]  Right.
[32:14.480 --> 32:14.640]  Right.
[32:14.980 --> 32:22.380]  Like, sex workers had been shouting and screaming about SESTA-FOSTA, you know, as soon as the bills were introduced.
[32:23.100 --> 32:32.280]  And, you know, removing, unfortunately, removing, like, you know, we had the back page take down, we had Craigslist personals go down.
[32:32.700 --> 32:36.500]  That immediately made life demonstrably less safe.
[32:36.620 --> 32:44.140]  That caused harm to sex workers who were using those platforms to screen potential clients, um, to, you know, keep themselves off the streets.
[32:44.720 --> 32:46.000]  Um, yeah.
[32:46.260 --> 32:58.300]  So, you know, yeah, they came for the sex workers first and now it, I'm, it seems like, you know, especially with Tumblr and now with Facebook, more folks are starting to realize like, oh wait, actually, yeah, look at this overreach.
[32:58.480 --> 32:59.440]  Look at the problems here.
[32:59.600 --> 32:59.900]  Right.
[33:00.060 --> 33:12.200]  And, uh, regardless of your feelings about sex work and, uh, that particular line of work, this, uh, this really has made the lives of those individuals markedly more dangerous, um, has made it so much more of a hazard for them to do what they do.
[33:12.380 --> 33:20.320]  Um, whether or not you're interested in patronizing, uh, such, uh, people, like you don't want them to get hurt as a result of the laws.
[33:20.380 --> 33:22.520]  You don't want them to be placed at higher physical risk.
[33:22.960 --> 33:25.440]  And, uh, that's the exact effect that FOSTA and SESTA has had.
[33:25.540 --> 33:46.100]  I'm trying to remember whether it was the guardian or, or, or maybe it was medium or whether it was vice, but there was some investigative reporting after SESTA and FOSTA which determined that as a result of SESTA and FOSTA's passage, more and more people were being recruited by Johns and being exploited because they didn't have the venue and the outlets that something like Tumblr or Craigslist or
[33:46.100 --> 33:47.900]  the back pages would have allowed you to have.
[33:48.740 --> 33:50.460]  So it defeats the purpose of it.
[33:50.820 --> 33:51.260]  Yeah.
[33:51.480 --> 33:57.160]  And, and of course, has the chilling effect because of today they can come after sex, tomorrow they can come after female presenting nipples.
[33:57.700 --> 33:57.900]  Yes.
[33:58.500 --> 33:59.040]  Ah, yes.
[33:59.480 --> 34:06.380]  God, heaven, heaven help us if they ever catch a picture of Venus de Milo on Wikipedia and say you have to take it down.
[34:06.840 --> 34:07.140]  Right.
[34:07.280 --> 34:15.180]  So much, uh, so much, uh, like classical art and Renaissance paintings and such have, uh, been posted all over the place under the tag too hot for Tumblr now.
[34:15.540 --> 34:24.980]  But, uh, and, and the, the funny thing is like Tumblr has even said some things like, uh, like, you know, artwork like that will be, uh, accepted and, and, uh, everything.
[34:25.160 --> 34:30.240]  But we are also looking at Tumblr doing this with automatic filters, which we all know how wonderful those work.
[34:30.420 --> 34:41.220]  Um, so even, you know, even, even, uh, even if you agree that this stuff should be filtered or this stuff shouldn't be on the internet, the scattershot way that they're doing this is just completely useless.
[34:41.600 --> 34:49.820]  Um, Tumblr's, Tumblr's own post, um, a post by Tumblr talking about this change was flagged by Tumblr's automatic system and taken down.
[34:49.820 --> 34:57.480]  Somebody, uh, Cory Doctorow posted this whole thread of, uh, complaining about the, uh, complaining about the Tumblr announcement being taken down.
[34:57.800 --> 35:01.060]  That post was recognized as objectionable by Tumblr's filter and blocked.
[35:01.220 --> 35:04.480]  The post, uh, complaining about that was taken down by Tumblr's filter and blocked.
[35:04.600 --> 35:08.260]  And it's just this, this, uh, inception of, uh, you know, we've got to go deeper.
[35:08.380 --> 35:15.800]  Another layer of, uh, stupid computers saying, doing stupid things and, uh, blocking it access to perfectly fine and important information.
[35:15.800 --> 35:17.800]  And the programming itself is easily tricked.
[35:17.980 --> 35:25.520]  I mean, look, if you can take two pictures of Garfield, badly drawn, I'll grant you, arrange them just so you can trigger the flag.
[35:25.660 --> 35:27.560]  This is Garfield we're talking about here.
[35:27.720 --> 35:34.260]  I'm waiting for the day when Jackson Pollock shows up in the filter and it says, Oh my God, please call the cops.
[35:34.820 --> 35:36.340]  It's Jackson Pollock.
[35:36.660 --> 35:37.120]  Right.
[35:37.220 --> 35:38.380]  It splatters on a wall.
[35:38.580 --> 35:41.500]  So we don't even see the algorithms that are behind it.
[35:41.800 --> 35:45.480]  Everybody's trying to figure out what exactly is triggering these red flags.
[35:45.600 --> 35:50.200]  And they're finding that the flags are being raised for reasons that make no sense in some cases.
[35:52.160 --> 35:52.520]  Absolutely.
[35:52.980 --> 35:56.700]  So, um, so this, this is basically just a big mess all around there.
[35:56.840 --> 36:04.700]  There is, uh, I don't think, I don't think even for people on the side of this thing, I don't think positive stuff is coming from this, but, uh, but yeah, it's, it's patently ridiculous.
[36:04.980 --> 36:06.920]  And of course people are leaving Tumblr in droves.
[36:07.040 --> 36:23.180]  And if you, if you search around, there have been lists posted of, uh, viable alternatives for people who are, um, doing, uh, adult, uh, themed art or who are, uh, looking for, you know, uh, places where, where sex workers can still, uh, can still post or things like that.
[36:23.300 --> 36:28.400]  But, but, uh, and the, the decent, the, the decentralization I think is a good thing.
[36:28.720 --> 36:33.720]  Um, it's never a good idea to depend too much on one service that is outside your own control.
[36:34.420 --> 36:39.140]  Um, but at the end of the day, like not everybody is going to start up their own mastodon server.
[36:39.380 --> 36:41.080]  Not everybody is going to host their own website.
[36:41.560 --> 36:49.240]  Um, and keeping the information, uh, available and accessible to all who might benefit from it is important.
[36:49.500 --> 36:50.980]  That's, that's a, that's a vital right.
[36:51.160 --> 36:53.880]  And that's the way the internet is meant to work.
[36:54.100 --> 36:57.460]  And it's a way that is having a massive wrench thrown into it right now.
[36:58.360 --> 36:58.720]  Yeah.
[36:58.820 --> 36:58.820]  Yeah.
[36:58.860 --> 37:04.380]  Well, and you, so you mentioned sort of the, the art, art angles, but there, again, bringing it back to education, right?
[37:04.680 --> 37:10.740]  Like there's no way you're going to see these algorithms be able to differentiate, you know, I'm doing a breast exam.
[37:10.960 --> 37:13.200]  I'm doing, you know, let me show you how to do a breast exam properly.
[37:13.340 --> 37:15.680]  Let me show you how to do your own pelvic self exam.
[37:16.000 --> 37:20.520]  Let me show you how to put a condom on, like, you know, like even just a diagram, right?
[37:21.080 --> 37:35.600]  Like this just makes it so much harder, um, for us to, you know, as educators, and for artists, but for us to make sure people have, you know, good fact-based information so they can make their own decisions about how to take care of themselves and their partners.
[37:36.000 --> 37:36.320]  Exactly.
[37:36.320 --> 37:51.300]  And not just, uh, not just for sort of medical, uh, sex education like that, but, uh, just general information for people who, uh, who might be growing into a sexuality they're not prepared for, or, uh, you know, all, you know, non-standard, uh, gender identity information,
[37:51.300 --> 38:01.000]  uh, you know, sexual identity information, just all of this, uh, material that is, That could literally save the lives of the people who need it, but is now being blocked.
[38:01.460 --> 38:02.460]  Oh, well, you mentioned that.
[38:02.560 --> 38:05.120]  Can I share a little... a happy coming out story?
[38:05.280 --> 38:05.640]  Please.
[38:05.700 --> 38:06.160]  Oh, please do.
[38:07.060 --> 38:21.860]  So, a couple years ago, I have a cousin who... at the time, let's see, she was about to start her freshman year of college, and she was up visiting, and I had transitioned to being non-binary, so I changed my name, I have my new pronouns, and I was... you know,
[38:21.940 --> 38:24.260]  the visit seemed to be going well, and so I was like, okay.
[38:24.260 --> 38:26.280]  Like, I, you know, I think I want to try to talk to her.
[38:26.520 --> 38:37.120]  And so, you know, we're sitting down on the couch, and I was like, okay, I was like, so, so how much do you know about, like, gender as a social construct?
[38:37.120 --> 38:39.240]  And she's like, oh, I'm on Tumblr.
[38:42.440 --> 38:43.120]  Yeah.
[38:43.460 --> 39:01.320]  And that's the thing, too, is Tumblr, for those not familiar, had really grown into a viable and really lively gathering place for people in such communities to share information and to, you know, swap stories and just have community, basically, digital community.
[39:01.320 --> 39:06.420]  And that is really, that is really, I think it hits hard, that being taken away.
[39:06.840 --> 39:21.540]  And like I said, at the end of the day, Tumblr is one business making a business decision, but this business decision has echoes and effects and ripples far outside itself, and it's a symptom of a larger issue, of a larger problem, and of a larger turn that society,
[39:21.760 --> 39:23.860]  that certain elements of society are trying to force.
[39:24.320 --> 39:30.140]  Um, what, what, what do you, uh, Kit, what do you think can be really, uh, done to counteract this?
[39:31.560 --> 39:32.000]  Hmm.
[39:32.340 --> 39:43.860]  I think at the moment, like, standing, standing with, like, so the folks who, some of the groups who have, have clearly are, are, are in the game and trying to fight this, right?
[39:43.960 --> 39:47.580]  So there's, of course, the, we love the Electronic Freedom Foundation, right?
[39:47.580 --> 39:49.860]  I'm sure your listeners are hopefully familiar.
[39:49.860 --> 39:53.200]  Um, they have been fighting FOSTA and SESTA, offering them support.
[39:53.520 --> 40:05.180]  Um, for me, it's following the lead of sex workers, um, trying to support them in their activism, and just generally making sure that my representatives know that, no, actually, FOSTA and SESTA is not okay, right?
[40:05.360 --> 40:18.960]  This is causing, this is, you know, again, regardless of what you think about sex work and where it should be, this is having other impacts on, in terms of education, health, art, community for queer folks and folks of, of, of gender and sexuality minorities.
[40:18.960 --> 40:25.120]  Um, you know, at the least, starting by speaking up and make sure your representatives know, this is not okay.
[40:26.240 --> 40:26.680]  All right.
[40:26.720 --> 40:32.900]  So, um, I want to take phone calls in a little bit, but, uh, before we do that, Kit, can you talk a little bit about your work with the Effing Foundation?
[40:33.500 --> 40:34.540]  Oh, yeah, thanks.
[40:34.760 --> 40:36.760]  So, oh, the Effing Foundation.
[40:37.100 --> 40:41.960]  Yeah, I try not to, I try not to use the joke too much, but it's, it's still not gotten old.
[40:42.560 --> 40:49.320]  Um, yeah, so we are a 501c3 not-for-profit and our main program right now is a grant program.
[40:49.540 --> 40:57.940]  So, you see, like, all the problems that artists and educators can have trying to actually do work that focuses on human sexuality.
[40:57.940 --> 41:02.040]  And so, we're working to make change by giving grants.
[41:02.260 --> 41:05.760]  We fund the people and the projects that nobody else will fund.
[41:06.160 --> 41:11.540]  Um, so, right now, we're actually working on our, uh, year-end fundraiser.
[41:11.700 --> 41:17.920]  So, if you're looking for, and besides WBAI, if you have some dollars in your giving budget, please consider the Effing Foundation.
[41:17.920 --> 41:24.780]  We're working to raise $75,000 to fund 14 amazing sex-positive projects all across the country.
[41:25.040 --> 41:32.260]  We have, we're, we're hoping to, to fund everything from a guide to porn literacy for teenagers and parents.
[41:32.480 --> 41:41.420]  Uh, we've got a, a, an anthology of sex-themed role-playing and LARP games, uh, by Sharang Biswas and Lucien Khan.
[41:41.420 --> 41:45.780]  Um, the Native Youth Sexual Health Network was, it, it is an Indigenous-led organization.
[41:46.280 --> 41:55.320]  Um, we've got projects, you know, targeting folks with disabilities, um, kinky folks, like, lots of queer, supporting lots of queer folks here.
[41:55.640 --> 41:56.220]  Um, yeah.
[41:56.360 --> 42:06.960]  So, our goal is to make some of this change by helping amplify and support the work of artists and educators who are doing stuff in this space.
[42:06.960 --> 42:15.140]  Which, like, as we've just talked about, it is so difficult and so challenging to try and do work in this space, to help educate, to help share your perspectives and your art.
[42:15.540 --> 42:16.920]  Uh, but that's what we're trying to do.
[42:17.320 --> 42:17.500]  Excellent.
[42:17.620 --> 42:19.900]  And where, where can people, uh, connect with the Effing Foundation?
[42:20.220 --> 42:24.340]  So you can find us at E-F-F-I-N-G dot O-R-G.
[42:25.280 --> 42:25.640]  Excellent.
[42:25.980 --> 42:31.100]  And, uh, where can people, uh, interested in, in, uh, all the work you do, uh, just find, find more info from you?
[42:31.760 --> 42:32.840]  Oh, so me personally.
[42:33.120 --> 42:37.960]  So, you can find me on Twitter at Vortacist, V-O-R-T-A-C-I-S-T.
[42:38.380 --> 42:47.200]  Um, my own blog about, uh, which I try to put up most of the talks that I do and a lot of my toy making stuff is at ToyMakerProject.com.
[42:48.220 --> 42:48.620]  Excellent.
[42:48.880 --> 42:56.580]  And, uh, also track down the, uh, the presentations that, uh, Kit has given, uh, they've, they presented at, not just Hope, but, uh, lots of events all over the place.
[42:57.180 --> 42:58.980]  And, uh, yeah, go from there.
[42:59.240 --> 43:06.960]  Uh, I'd like to ask listeners to call in, uh, you can get us at our number 212-209-2877.
[43:07.540 --> 43:12.700]  Uh, if you'd like to share your thoughts on things we've been talking about, uh, speak with our guest, 212-209-2877.
[43:13.320 --> 43:29.100]  And, uh, if you'd like to, um, help us keep doing what we do here at WBAI, it is vital that, uh, you also call 516-620-3602, or go to give2wbai.org and, uh, do what you can to help us keep doing what we do.
[43:29.240 --> 43:30.880]  Yeah, so you could theoretically do both.
[43:31.140 --> 43:37.000]  You know, you could call in and go to give2wbai.org at the same time.
[43:37.200 --> 43:39.540]  Right, just, just so long as you're not driving your car at the same time.
[43:39.800 --> 43:39.980]  Also true.
[43:40.200 --> 43:42.420]  Also, don't give us your credit card numbers over the air, please.
[43:42.940 --> 43:44.620]  Um, no, not unless you're really generous.
[43:45.200 --> 43:47.680]  Uh, use somebody else's card instead.
[43:48.960 --> 43:50.140]  That was not legal advice.
[43:50.280 --> 43:52.660]  We do not, uh, endorse using credit cards that are not yours.
[43:53.360 --> 43:54.020]  Um, but, uh...
[43:54.020 --> 43:54.780]  Actually, don't use credit cards.
[43:54.880 --> 44:01.240]  Just, even if it was a knock on the door and says, here's my money, please stay on the air, WBAI will appreciate it.
[44:01.480 --> 44:01.800]  Absolutely.
[44:02.040 --> 44:05.900]  But, uh, yeah, give us a phone call, tell us what you think, 212-209-2877.
[44:06.220 --> 44:16.020]  We broke in this new phone system, uh, last week and the week before, and we would, uh, or two weeks ago, and we are really excited to get to use it, so I want to fill up some, uh, some lines on this call-in system.
[44:16.080 --> 44:16.160]  This is an inaugural call?
[44:16.540 --> 44:17.460]  Uh, this is not.
[44:17.580 --> 44:20.780]  We, we, we, we sort of burned this system in, uh, a couple of weeks ago.
[44:21.300 --> 44:24.780]  And, uh, you know, we, we got some, we got some interesting callers.
[44:24.940 --> 44:27.300]  And I think we have one of them on the line there.
[44:27.500 --> 44:28.460]  Hello, you're on off the hook.
[44:29.640 --> 44:31.660]  Hi, yes, I hope you guys can hear me.
[44:31.760 --> 44:33.680]  I have a quick statement, and then I have a question.
[44:34.240 --> 44:45.700]  Uh, my statement, first of all, is, uh, thank you for everyone on this episode who's been doing, uh, work against all of this, uh, ridiculous censorship, uh, when it comes to the human form and activities.
[44:45.940 --> 45:00.480]  And something that I've noticed, which I kind of find abhorrent, uh, with the reaction to all of this, uh, is, uh, people's willingness to just, uh, like, people are like, oh, if this Tumblr's gone, let's, you know, just go to Pornhub.
[45:00.640 --> 45:04.340]  Or, like, you know, the sort of apathetic, uh, why should we care?
[45:04.340 --> 45:08.860]  Or there's other corporate options that you can jump to, which I just find absurd.
[45:09.340 --> 45:10.960]  Uh, but, uh, tantic question.
[45:11.220 --> 45:18.780]  So, I've been in a situation similar with censorship myself, where I've been IP banned from Twitter.
[45:19.420 --> 45:25.940]  And every time I show people that I got IP banned and what I got IP banned for, everyone thinks it's ridiculous.
[45:26.160 --> 45:28.520]  I've also spoken to certain legal people about this.
[45:28.860 --> 45:35.700]  And I've heard from those people that there's a way, not necessarily suing, but a way to do some sort of legal action for Twitter.
[45:36.080 --> 45:41.000]  Uh, if you do get IP banned for that, I have tried to look that up and I have nowhere to go.
[45:41.120 --> 45:44.580]  I thought I would call to see if you guys know what that would entail.
[45:44.980 --> 45:45.380]  Excellent.
[45:45.680 --> 45:49.800]  Unfortunately, our pet lawyer is not here tonight, but, uh, he, he, uh...
[45:49.800 --> 45:53.720]  And the one that plays when on radio is giving out bad advice, like using credit card numbers over the air.
[45:54.220 --> 45:55.020]  Absolutely, absolutely.
[45:55.300 --> 45:58.880]  But, uh, yeah, it's, it's funny though, because we're talking about this.
[45:58.880 --> 46:11.320]  And, uh, again, even on, even on, uh, on the subject of banning you from Twitter, that is the decision of a private company, uh, you know, uh, doing, doing its own thing and deciding who it, who it does and doesn't want on its platforms.
[46:12.000 --> 46:15.500]  And that's not really a cut and dry legal issue, I don't think, by, by any measure.
[46:15.900 --> 46:19.040]  So is it, is it something that you should be granted the right to access?
[46:19.040 --> 46:24.260]  Or is it something that, uh, uh, Twitter should be forced to allow you access to?
[46:24.500 --> 46:28.180]  And, uh, either, either way kind of has its, uh, positives and negatives.
[46:28.400 --> 46:30.820]  And, uh, I don't know, what, what do all of you think here?
[46:30.900 --> 46:37.920]  It seems to be a generational divide between the people who see that the access to the internet and the internet services themselves are a premium.
[46:37.920 --> 46:46.500]  And those of us who, well, of us, I've just given myself away, who think it's a public utility that everybody needs to rely on in order to survive.
[46:46.800 --> 47:01.820]  Whether it's, you know, just accessing Facebook and Twitter and everybody else, or if it's just being able to go through that system and have access to that system to go to, uh, you know, the courts, to go through voter registration pages, to go through municipal,
[47:02.080 --> 47:04.460]  uh, websites, just to retrieve information.
[47:06.180 --> 47:06.500]  Yeah.
[47:06.920 --> 47:07.960]  Well, thank, thank you very much.
[47:08.360 --> 47:09.520]  Uh, thank you very much for that call.
[47:09.540 --> 47:16.640]  And if anybody, uh, if anybody legally competent, uh, wants to write in with, uh, their thoughts on this, OTH at 2600.com.
[47:16.860 --> 47:26.260]  And, uh, we will share them in future, or I will just, uh, bug Alex and, uh, and tug on his mustache until he, until, until he agrees to answer the question.
[47:26.880 --> 47:27.740]  Thank you guys.
[47:27.900 --> 47:29.540]  I'm going to keep trying to fight the good fight.
[47:29.880 --> 47:31.520]  Thank you for keep fighting the good fight.
[47:31.520 --> 47:35.400]  And, uh, let's, let's, let's make this for everybody.
[47:35.660 --> 47:35.900]  Okay.
[47:36.140 --> 47:36.520]  Thank you.
[47:36.620 --> 47:37.320]  We're doing our best.
[47:38.040 --> 47:38.780]  Thank you, caller.
[47:39.300 --> 47:39.580]  Yes.
[47:39.860 --> 47:40.780]  I always wanted to say that.
[47:40.880 --> 47:41.360]  That was so easy.
[47:42.160 --> 47:42.520]  Awesome.
[47:43.300 --> 47:43.900]  Achievement unlocked.
[47:44.240 --> 47:44.560]  Seriously.
[47:44.860 --> 47:45.080]  Bravo.
[47:45.560 --> 47:46.100]  Oh my goodness.
[47:46.300 --> 47:47.380]  This is the best night of my life.
[47:47.480 --> 47:49.900]  You may not, you may not be a hacker, but you married one.
[47:50.020 --> 47:52.340]  And, uh, I think maybe it's rubbing off on you a little bit.
[47:53.000 --> 47:53.140]  Um.
[47:53.560 --> 47:54.300]  It's been a while now.
[47:54.420 --> 47:56.300]  I think the two of you actually do work together very well.
[47:56.300 --> 47:56.540]  Oh, yeah.
[47:56.920 --> 47:58.320]  Now you've, now you've, uh.
[47:58.320 --> 47:59.040]  You gave it away.
[47:59.180 --> 47:59.900]  You gave it away.
[48:00.100 --> 48:01.580]  You've, you've said which hacker she's married to.
[48:01.580 --> 48:04.260]  You divulged my anonymity and announced which hacker I married.
[48:04.560 --> 48:04.840]  Oh, come on.
[48:05.020 --> 48:05.220]  Yeah.
[48:05.300 --> 48:06.800]  Now, now my nepotism is laid bare.
[48:07.320 --> 48:09.080]  How many mea culpas do I have to give now?
[48:09.880 --> 48:11.460]  Two mea culpas, three hail Marys, I think.
[48:11.540 --> 48:11.800]  I don't know.
[48:12.180 --> 48:12.640]  Um, but, uh.
[48:13.780 --> 48:15.680]  Yeah, give us, uh, give us a call if you're out there.
[48:15.800 --> 48:21.460]  212-209-2877 to, uh, call and let us know, uh, your thoughts.
[48:21.660 --> 48:29.940]  And give to wbai.org or 516-620-3602 to keep us doing what we do here at WBAI.
[48:30.240 --> 48:31.700]  It's, uh, more important now than ever.
[48:31.860 --> 48:38.060]  We, I, I was hanging out in our, uh, new studio in progress earlier and, uh, just marveling at everything that's being done.
[48:38.300 --> 48:39.380]  It's actually being done.
[48:39.820 --> 48:41.240]  Um, progress is being made.
[48:41.240 --> 48:48.360]  Um, we, we have, we have a wall that's leaned up against another wall right now because it's been cut away from the wall, um, because it's being moved around.
[48:48.600 --> 48:59.000]  And, uh, yeah, there's, there's some heavy-duty, uh, you know, home improvement type stuff going on here at our radio home and that is enabled through the generosity of you, our listeners.
[48:59.580 --> 49:01.620]  Um, this is the only thing that keeps us on the air.
[49:01.720 --> 49:03.100]  We don't, uh, we don't do bake sales.
[49:03.140 --> 49:07.280]  Uh, we don't, uh, we don't take money from people to tell you what soft drinks you should
[49:11.860 --> 49:16.560]  Not what food delivery service you should be subscribing to, or a mattress.
[49:17.220 --> 49:21.300]  Yeah, we're not flogging mattresses on our podcasts, or...
[49:21.300 --> 49:22.520]  Or socks.
[49:22.880 --> 49:23.060]  Yeah,
[49:26.460 --> 49:31.680]  we are just doing what we do now, which is asking you, the listeners, for your help.
[49:31.680 --> 49:34.440]  And you've kept us at it for decades and decades.
[49:34.440 --> 49:37.640]  We are selling you on the notion of the open mind.
[49:38.880 --> 49:39.280]  Absolutely.
[49:39.680 --> 49:44.620]  So keep us doing what we do here at WBAI.
[49:44.740 --> 49:47.340]  Go to give2wbai.org to enable that.
[49:47.500 --> 49:50.840]  And give us a call at 212-209-2877.
[49:51.180 --> 49:54.520]  And if you don't get online immediately, you can stay on the line, because we have multiple phone lines.
[49:54.560 --> 49:55.420]  We are living that life.
[49:55.520 --> 49:57.140]  But we have a caller on the line right now.
[49:57.300 --> 49:58.400]  Good evening, you're on Off The Hook.
[49:58.560 --> 50:00.500]  Hey, hey, how you doing here?
[50:00.500 --> 50:00.520]  Sure.
[50:01.160 --> 50:04.240]  You know, I just turned into your show here.
[50:04.460 --> 50:09.340]  I'm going to make some comments about the tech explosion the past 30 years.
[50:09.480 --> 50:15.340]  Before I do that, you made a comment about BAI being voter-supported completely.
[50:16.000 --> 50:18.520]  I know it is voter-supported somewhat.
[50:18.520 --> 50:20.420]  I don't know if it's completely, though.
[50:20.420 --> 50:22.280]  We are completely listener-supported.
[50:22.360 --> 50:25.940]  We don't have any other sort of sponsorships or anything like that.
[50:25.940 --> 50:26.900]  Any that you know of.
[50:26.980 --> 50:28.140]  Any that you know of.
[50:28.200 --> 50:28.860]  I don't know.
[50:29.480 --> 50:30.380]  I don't know.
[50:30.440 --> 50:31.280]  I don't know.
[50:31.400 --> 50:33.080]  I like to be proven.
[50:33.560 --> 50:34.700]  I like to see some proof of that.
[50:34.920 --> 50:37.280]  But anyway, about the tech explosion.
[50:37.460 --> 50:38.940]  We all got phones today.
[50:39.120 --> 50:40.880]  It's a different world than 30 years ago.
[50:40.880 --> 50:43.920]  I don't know how old you are, but I remember like 30 years ago.
[50:44.820 --> 50:46.500]  And, you know, like all things...
[50:47.080 --> 50:47.560]  So do I.
[50:48.020 --> 50:50.440]  Like all things, you know, it's complex.
[50:50.820 --> 50:53.520]  You know, I mean, are there advantages?
[50:53.900 --> 50:54.160]  Yeah.
[50:54.700 --> 50:55.700]  Are there disadvantages?
[50:55.700 --> 50:59.860]  I think we're just scratching the surface with the disadvantages, you know?
[51:00.100 --> 51:00.360]  Mm-hmm.
[51:00.360 --> 51:06.780]  I mean, there's been studies showing that people, you know, who text are not developing one part of their brain.
[51:06.960 --> 51:09.420]  You know, kids are not developing one part of their brain.
[51:09.600 --> 51:13.700]  You know, like when you talk to a person, it does something to the brain.
[51:14.080 --> 51:19.020]  You know, when I see you face-to-face or if you hear a human voice, it says something.
[51:19.360 --> 51:23.500]  When you text somebody, you know, that same part of the brain is not lit up.
[51:23.980 --> 51:31.040]  You know, and, you know, all these things that they're just scratching the surface now and trying to... and seeing how this is really affecting us.
[51:31.160 --> 51:34.480]  I mean, we see the positive things, but we don't know the negative things yet.
[51:36.380 --> 51:41.940]  That sounds very much like that line that I'm about to butcher from Jurassic Park.
[51:42.040 --> 51:43.160]  I'm sorry, you have to speak up a little bit.
[51:43.240 --> 51:43.640]  My apologies.
[51:43.920 --> 51:49.780]  It reminds me very much of a line from Jurassic Park, which I'm probably going to butcher, which is, you know, we thought about how much we should.
[51:49.780 --> 51:51.300]  We never thought about what could.
[51:51.300 --> 51:58.340]  But we don't see the repercussions and the future of how technology will affect us.
[51:58.440 --> 51:59.560]  We only experience it.
[52:00.580 --> 52:00.720]  Yeah.
[52:01.020 --> 52:03.640]  Hey, listen, hey, listen, what you just said is perfect.
[52:03.800 --> 52:05.060]  I mean, look at climate change.
[52:06.340 --> 52:08.500]  You know, hey, we got this industrial revolution.
[52:08.500 --> 52:09.340]  Let's go at it.
[52:09.500 --> 52:12.220]  Let's not regulate the pollution at all.
[52:12.420 --> 52:14.100]  We just got to ride it all the way.
[52:14.380 --> 52:16.160]  And they got climate change today.
[52:16.980 --> 52:17.340]  Absolutely.
[52:17.520 --> 52:17.840]  Well, thank you.
[52:17.960 --> 52:18.880]  Thank you very much for that call.
[52:19.240 --> 52:20.720]  And have a good evening.
[52:22.080 --> 52:26.720]  Yeah, we can maybe squeeze in another phone call if you're quick about it.
[52:26.960 --> 52:30.120]  212-209-2877.
[52:30.820 --> 52:41.720]  And let us know what you think about things we've been talking about or ask our guest, Kit Stubbs, a question about what they've been talking about or anything else that's on your mind.
[52:41.720 --> 52:50.380]  Well, there's only been one observation that I've made, and this seems to be absolutely a human thing regarding Foster, regarding SESTA, regarding censorship of any kind.
[52:50.380 --> 52:54.440]  And they said, get sex off the stage in vaudeville days.
[52:54.600 --> 52:55.660]  So they put it into film.
[52:56.740 --> 52:58.120]  Then they said, get sex out of film.
[52:58.240 --> 52:59.700]  And it ended up on television eventually.
[53:00.200 --> 53:01.600]  And they said, get it off of television.
[53:01.740 --> 53:02.980]  Now it ended up on your cell phone.
[53:03.680 --> 53:14.260]  I think there's something to be said about the human need, if not to love physically, then to observe and to learn and be open about it.
[53:14.480 --> 53:18.360]  We will find a new medium, whether it's online or in person.
[53:18.520 --> 53:23.380]  But I think that that necessity to be open will persevere.
[53:23.860 --> 53:25.240]  I would like to think so.
[53:25.820 --> 53:28.140]  We have our last call on the line.
[53:28.320 --> 53:28.860]  Good evening.
[53:28.980 --> 53:29.440]  You're on Off the Hook.
[53:31.180 --> 53:31.580]  Hello?
[53:31.660 --> 53:31.760]  Hello.
[53:31.880 --> 53:34.200]  Hey, long-time listener, sporadic caller.
[53:34.540 --> 53:44.520]  I just wanted to call and thank you all for talking about advocacy for sex workers, people who identify in sexual niches, that type of thing.
[53:45.180 --> 53:45.580]  Absolutely.
[53:45.740 --> 53:51.160]  It just feels like a lot of the legislation is doing a reach back to, like, the 1950s, I guess I would say.
[53:51.160 --> 53:54.280]  You know, like, deviate from the norm and you're an outcast.
[53:54.280 --> 53:55.500]  You're doing something wrong.
[53:57.540 --> 53:58.320]  Yeah, no, definitely.
[53:58.420 --> 54:00.260]  It's just nice that these resources are available.
[54:00.860 --> 54:01.960]  It absolutely is.
[54:02.040 --> 54:05.720]  And it's vital we try and do our best to keep them that way.
[54:06.480 --> 54:08.980]  So thank you very much for your kind words, caller.
[54:11.680 --> 54:15.660]  And with that, I think we're about out of time.
[54:16.000 --> 54:21.020]  I want to thank again Kit Stubbs, PhD, for joining us tonight.
[54:21.620 --> 54:22.860]  Thank you so much for having me.
[54:22.960 --> 54:23.860]  I really appreciate it.
[54:24.260 --> 54:25.060]  Great to have you.
[54:25.180 --> 54:26.500]  And we'll definitely...
[54:27.180 --> 54:29.740]  We should totally speak again sometime on this program.
[54:29.960 --> 54:31.440]  But thank you very much.
[54:32.220 --> 54:34.780]  I'd like to thank Neo for being here.
[54:34.900 --> 54:35.300]  My pleasure.
[54:35.500 --> 54:36.840]  And I'd like to thank Gila for being here.
[54:36.900 --> 54:38.000]  It's absolutely my pleasure.
[54:38.140 --> 54:39.520]  And also for being married to me.
[54:39.640 --> 54:40.420]  That's pretty cool, too.
[54:41.020 --> 54:42.440]  Thank you for being married to me.
[54:43.360 --> 54:43.800]  Aww.
[54:44.780 --> 54:46.780]  And now that I've given everyone diabetes.
[54:49.000 --> 54:58.120]  Yes, we'll sign off with a nice little ditty I picked out specially for the NHS of England by Nick Cardolino.
[54:58.760 --> 55:02.260]  This is something that I found a while ago, and I've just been waiting for an excuse to use it.
[55:02.420 --> 55:06.020]  So with this, send us email, othat2600.com.
[55:06.340 --> 55:10.660]  Find us at Hacker Radio Show on Twitter, at Hacker Radio Show at Mastodon.social.
[55:10.660 --> 55:13.700]  Continue to support WBAI.
[55:13.720 --> 55:15.540]  Continue to support WBAI.
[55:15.740 --> 55:16.800]  And thank you.
[55:17.060 --> 55:18.780]  Have a very good week for Off the Hook.
[55:18.960 --> 55:19.860]  This has been Rob T.
[55:19.980 --> 55:20.360]  Firefly.
[55:21.020 --> 55:21.680]  Good night.
[55:29.160 --> 55:35.380]  We met in the chat room in America online.
[55:36.140 --> 55:42.900]  My PC was slow, but you said it was fine.
[55:42.900 --> 55:50.060]  You've been filling my memory with data since then.
[55:50.440 --> 55:57.280]  My love is so large, I need a little more RAM.
[56:03.370 --> 56:09.890]  So fax me if you love me, send email if you care.
[56:10.790 --> 56:16.710]  Darling, if you need me, I'll create my software.
[56:16.710 --> 56:24.410]  Where I am caught in your website, and the serpent's so sweet.
[56:25.350 --> 56:31.630]  Girl, please don't hit Control-Alt-Delete.
[56:36.840 --> 56:44.160]  Now since I bought this computer, I've not left the house.
[56:44.160 --> 56:51.940]  All my friends are as close as the click of my mouse.
[56:52.180 --> 56:58.420]  You don't need a flash meat for me to know how I feel.
[56:59.260 --> 57:05.800]  This digital love, well, it's virtually real.
[57:11.310 --> 57:18.270]  So fax me if you love me, send email if you care.
[57:18.710 --> 57:25.050]  And darling, if you need me, I'll create my software.
[57:25.050 --> 57:32.750]  Where I am caught in your website, and the serpent's so sweet.
[57:32.750 --> 57:40.810]  Girl, please don't hit Control-Alt-Delete.
[57:46.000 --> 57:51.980]  Girl, nothing can come between us.
[57:53.560 --> 57:59.410]  Well, except maybe a power outage, or some sort of virus.
[57:59.410 --> 58:06.830]  So fax me if you love me, send email if you care.
[58:07.170 --> 58:13.650]  And darling, if you need me, I'll create my software.
[58:14.430 --> 58:21.210]  I am caught in your website, and the serpent's so sweet.
[58:21.210 --> 58:29.790]  Girl, please don't hit Control-Alt-Delete.
[58:31.150 --> 58:44.570]  Don't ever hit Control-Alt-Delete.