[00:00.000 --> 00:05.760]  Happy week for everyone that I'm singing to.
[00:06.480 --> 00:07.960]  Hello, boy, Deli.
[00:08.240 --> 00:11.560]  It's time to go.
[00:11.960 --> 00:15.260]  Till next week's show.
[00:16.040 --> 00:16.560]  Goodbye.
[00:25.480 --> 00:26.680]  Shortcuts.
[00:26.840 --> 00:28.600]  Produced by Peter Beauchamp.
[00:32.250 --> 00:36.980]  And you are listening to radio station WBAI.
[00:36.980 --> 00:40.040]  99.5 FM here in New York.
[00:41.000 --> 00:42.160]  WBAI.org.
[00:42.460 --> 00:43.340]  Every place.
[00:44.860 --> 00:48.680]  We are a Pacifica station and we are doing all sorts of things.
[00:48.800 --> 00:50.400]  And right now it is about 8 p.m.
[00:50.580 --> 00:55.540]  on a Wednesday night, which means what we're doing is another exciting edition of Off the Hook.
[01:01.880 --> 01:03.580]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[01:04.080 --> 01:06.120]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[01:07.060 --> 01:09.080]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:09.540 --> 01:11.600]  Now I can't make a call.
[01:12.380 --> 01:14.340]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:16.470 --> 01:16.990]  We would.
[01:17.250 --> 01:17.910]  From Diddley Bom.
[01:18.070 --> 01:19.870]  But the best is back from worst.
[01:20.470 --> 01:22.370]  I hope that's understood.
[01:22.590 --> 01:23.410]  From Diddley Bom.
[01:45.440 --> 01:51.760]  A very, very good evening to you on this, the pre-New Year's edition of Off the Hook.
[01:53.320 --> 01:55.520]  This will be the final Off the Hook this year.
[01:55.940 --> 01:57.680]  So get ready for that.
[01:57.880 --> 01:58.360]  Rob T.
[01:58.500 --> 02:01.800]  Firefly here with you in the studio where I am joined by Voltaire.
[02:02.160 --> 02:02.380]  Hey.
[02:03.380 --> 02:07.460]  And we have a couple of folks in on the phone who I'll be bringing in a moment.
[02:07.640 --> 02:09.560]  But just to handle a quick bit of business.
[02:10.040 --> 02:11.240]  I mentioned this last week.
[02:11.240 --> 02:18.580]  But for those unaware, in two weeks, two weeks, Off the Hook will be on one hour earlier.
[02:19.780 --> 02:21.360]  Historically, we were on at 7 p.m.
[02:21.980 --> 02:24.060]  This is going back a year or two.
[02:24.320 --> 02:26.700]  And we will be going back there again.
[02:26.940 --> 02:36.900]  So starting with the January 9th, 2019 episode of Off the Hook, we will be on these airwaves at WBAI from 7 p.m.
[02:37.160 --> 02:37.600]  till 8.
[02:38.420 --> 02:39.980]  Right now we are on at 8 p.m.
[02:39.980 --> 02:41.440]  Next week we are on at 8 p.m.
[02:42.580 --> 02:44.740]  And after that, we'll be moving up an hour.
[02:44.900 --> 02:49.440]  So we can all go to bed an hour earlier and there will be much rejoicing.
[02:50.820 --> 02:56.800]  But yes, I would like to bring in our telephone guests from far away.
[02:56.980 --> 02:58.980]  We should have Emmanuel on the line.
[03:00.900 --> 03:01.820]  Yeah, here I am.
[03:01.960 --> 03:02.140]  Wow.
[03:02.480 --> 03:02.900]  There you are.
[03:03.200 --> 03:06.540]  And we should also have Mitch Altman on the other line.
[03:06.820 --> 03:07.320]  Mitch, are you with us?
[03:08.720 --> 03:10.040]  Greetings from Leipzig.
[03:11.020 --> 03:12.000]  Mitch from Leipzig.
[03:12.220 --> 03:12.380]  Wow.
[03:12.560 --> 03:16.800]  And so you guys are in this European state of mind.
[03:17.120 --> 03:20.860]  Emmanuel, can you give us some hints about what might be going on out there?
[03:22.420 --> 03:25.880]  Well, what's going on right now is you got Kyle really mad because you left him out.
[03:26.460 --> 03:26.660]  Yeah.
[03:26.760 --> 03:27.160]  Hi, Rob.
[03:27.300 --> 03:27.600]  What's up?
[03:27.820 --> 03:29.140]  Kyle, you're there too.
[03:30.640 --> 03:36.820]  I was saving the best introduction for you, but you've gone and stepped on that now.
[03:36.860 --> 03:37.000]  Good save.
[03:38.280 --> 03:43.040]  I was going to cue the drummer who has the snare drum set up.
[03:43.160 --> 03:44.260]  We were going to get a nice drum roll going.
[03:44.400 --> 03:46.140]  But I'm sorry, you can go home now.
[03:46.820 --> 03:47.640]  We're not doing it.
[03:48.160 --> 03:48.680]  No, I know.
[03:48.840 --> 03:49.080]  I know.
[03:49.740 --> 03:50.100]  Okay.
[03:51.020 --> 03:51.460]  I'm sorry.
[03:51.500 --> 03:56.360]  Let me start by correcting a couple of facts that you put forth.
[03:56.360 --> 03:58.880]  You said it was, I believe, 8 o'clock on a Wednesday.
[03:58.960 --> 03:59.380]  That's incorrect.
[03:59.560 --> 04:03.620]  It's actually 2 in the damn morning on Thursday where we are.
[04:04.300 --> 04:05.800]  And that really...
[04:06.420 --> 04:11.980]  It's going to shape our feelings here tonight because, boy, we've had a long day.
[04:12.120 --> 04:12.520]  We've been traveling.
[04:12.640 --> 04:14.240]  We went through four countries today to get here.
[04:14.900 --> 04:15.340]  Wow.
[04:15.840 --> 04:16.680]  Uphill both ways.
[04:17.320 --> 04:20.980]  So you are where it's 2 a.m.
[04:21.200 --> 04:21.840]  on a Thursday.
[04:21.840 --> 04:23.180]  You're in the mysterious future over there.
[04:23.180 --> 04:27.520]  So to go back to my earlier question, what brings you out there?
[04:29.260 --> 04:31.720]  Well, we're all out here, actually, for the same reason.
[04:32.080 --> 04:40.660]  In fact, we're all in various hotels around the city broadcasting in places that hopefully allow radio broadcasting to take place in the middle of the night.
[04:41.960 --> 04:53.140]  We're in the lobby, and we're just basically here for the Chaos Communication Congress, which begins tomorrow, runs from the 27th through the 30th of December, as it does every year.
[04:53.240 --> 04:56.520]  And this is the second year that it's been in the city of Leipzig.
[04:56.720 --> 04:58.740]  And we're very much looking forward to it.
[04:59.960 --> 05:00.440]  Excellent.
[05:00.900 --> 05:03.480]  Leipzig, now, Mitch, you also said greetings from Leipzig.
[05:03.620 --> 05:07.600]  So I assume you're out there for a similar reason, if not the same reason?
[05:08.520 --> 05:14.940]  I am definitely here for the Chaos Communications Congress, the 35th, 35C3.
[05:15.340 --> 05:19.380]  And today I've been up for a long time as well.
[05:19.620 --> 05:29.540]  So today I was setting up the hardware hacking area, which is bigger than ever this year, with lots and lots and lots and lots of workshops.
[05:30.060 --> 05:57.140]  And we have something like 102 soldering irons ready for some percentage of the 16,000 attendees of 35C3 to come and solder, either learning or fixing things, or making cool projects of their own, or making any number of projects that are available at the hardware hacking area that I and many,
[05:57.220 --> 06:01.700]  many other people brought, for people to solder together and make and play together.
[06:03.160 --> 06:08.720]  Now, Emmanuel, I know you've been reporting from this event for a while now, every year.
[06:08.820 --> 06:13.820]  But for those who may not have been listening at those points, could you explain a little bit about what this event is?
[06:15.680 --> 06:22.620]  Well, the Chaos Communications Congress has been going on since, I believe the first one was 1984, the same year the 2600 first came out.
[06:22.620 --> 06:41.860]  So, and it was taking place in Hamburg at that point, and then it moved to Berlin, then moved back to Hamburg, it might have been in a couple other places as well, but it's recently moved to Leipzig, it just keeps getting bigger and bigger, and it's just this annual gathering of hackers,
[06:42.020 --> 06:47.440]  mostly German hackers, and it's become a real tradition.
[06:47.440 --> 06:52.100]  Every two years, there's an outdoor camp in the summertime as well.
[06:52.380 --> 07:10.940]  Yeah, this event in particular is described as a four-day conference on technology, society, and utopia organized by the Chaos Computer Club that also hosts the camps, as well as a lot of volunteers and hackers.
[07:10.940 --> 07:23.860]  I think the number this year they're expecting is around 15,000, and I know of the lecture track, we're used to four lecture tracks, we have three at Hope, they have five this year, five tracks of talk.
[07:24.400 --> 07:31.660]  Yeah, it's really incredible, and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger, we hardly have time to see the whole thing in the four days that go by.
[07:32.100 --> 07:33.460]  But it all begins tomorrow.
[07:33.660 --> 07:38.100]  I know, Kyle, even taking a glance at the schedule, is there anything that jumps out at you tomorrow?
[07:38.100 --> 07:47.240]  Oh yeah, I was going through just the first day, there are some really, really interesting talks in particular, just reading them off.
[07:47.520 --> 08:11.280]  I'm interested in this talk, Going Deep Underground to Watch the Stars, it's about neutrino astronomy, and there's another one about decentralizing semiconductor manufacturing called Libra Silicon, and a couple other ones on society, this really interesting one on activism and performance in hostile spaces online,
[08:11.280 --> 08:32.040]  from a techno-feminist perspective, basically on the world of pickup artists, and how to gamify some of their tactics in these more infamous misogynist avenues of the web.
[08:32.400 --> 08:34.000]  That one's called Tactical Embodiment.
[08:35.560 --> 08:36.000]  Interesting.
[08:36.240 --> 08:41.440]  Now, I know one thing CCC does is, I think they stream the talks, is that correct?
[08:43.220 --> 08:44.100]  They sure do.
[08:44.260 --> 08:51.160]  In fact, I know it's kind of late in the game for people to get on a plane and get over here if they're not already here.
[08:51.300 --> 08:54.420]  And it doesn't matter if you did, because it's been sold out for quite a while.
[08:55.180 --> 08:57.500]  But you can watch it online.
[08:57.500 --> 09:01.300]  If you go to ccc.de, hopefully you'll be able to find the links.
[09:01.520 --> 09:03.240]  I know it's always a little bit of a challenge.
[09:03.340 --> 09:04.880]  I'll try to get to the exact links.
[09:05.380 --> 09:07.460]  But you can watch all of the tracks.
[09:07.920 --> 09:10.260]  And if you have a good system, it can be like you're there.
[09:10.760 --> 09:20.240]  We've done this a number of times over the years, where we basically share talks with people and say, hey, we're going to go to room number two and see this talk at this time.
[09:20.280 --> 09:21.540]  And of course, you're home the whole time.
[09:21.720 --> 09:23.140]  We try to do the same thing with Hope.
[09:23.400 --> 09:24.660]  And it really makes a difference.
[09:24.820 --> 09:29.160]  It opens it up to so many more people to see what's what's being presented.
[09:29.520 --> 09:31.220]  Yeah, I have the URL.
[09:32.380 --> 09:39.480]  Streaming.media.ccc.de slash 35 C3.
[09:39.960 --> 09:42.280]  It's not live yet.
[09:42.480 --> 09:47.200]  But check back in about 12 hours, and it'll be up and going with multiple tracks.
[09:47.800 --> 09:48.880]  It hasn't started yet.
[09:49.000 --> 09:50.140]  So it can't possibly be up yet.
[09:51.320 --> 09:52.900]  Yeah, that that would be a neat trick.
[09:53.540 --> 09:58.100]  But yeah, and since we've since we've streamed the talks from Hope as well.
[09:58.240 --> 09:59.740]  And we know how much work goes into that.
[09:59.920 --> 10:05.540]  And just knowing how much work they must be going to, to make all this work, it gives one appreciation.
[10:05.620 --> 10:05.980]  Voltaire?
[10:05.980 --> 10:17.800]  One of the things I most appreciate about, like, KS Communication Congress and all their events is that they post the video and audio, like, literally, like, the day, the same day as the talks most of the time.
[10:17.980 --> 10:19.400]  So you can just, like, follow it.
[10:19.680 --> 10:28.080]  There's an RSS feed that I can post from the Hacker Radio Show Twitter account, and it'll include all the episodes of every, basically every talk.
[10:29.320 --> 10:29.800]  Excellent.
[10:29.920 --> 10:35.980]  Yeah, we will share that out from our social media on Twitter and Mastodon, where you can find us at Hacker Radio Show.
[10:36.740 --> 10:49.260]  And yeah, that's, so, so, what are, what are you guys, Manuel and Kyle, what are you, what are you guys particularly, anything jumping out at you from the schedule yet, or just kind of take it, take it as it comes?
[10:51.480 --> 10:55.080]  Well, the, the, the talks that Kyle just outlined seem pretty interesting.
[10:55.320 --> 10:59.180]  But again, you know, we've just had a chance to look at the first, the first day.
[10:59.800 --> 11:02.260]  And I guess there's four days total.
[11:02.600 --> 11:12.440]  And that's not even counting the things that go on outside of the actual lecture rooms as all sorts of other assemblies and just informal gatherings.
[11:12.900 --> 11:17.240]  And it's, it's just an incredible mecca of, of, of Hacker Culture.
[11:17.580 --> 11:18.200]  Yeah.
[11:18.400 --> 11:27.640]  And, um, one of the big emphasis is the, the things that's being emphasized, uh, uh, is basics, um, which I noticed right away going through the schedule here.
[11:28.000 --> 11:42.860]  Um, things like TCP, uh, transmission control protocol is sort of a foundational part of, um, of internet, uh, protocol and, and, um, modern communications, uh, that we take for granted a little bit.
[11:43.040 --> 11:48.180]  And, and, um, not a lot of people coming in necessarily understand it right away.
[11:48.180 --> 11:52.620]  So there seems to be this emphasis, um, um, on kind of relearning.
[11:52.880 --> 12:01.220]  And, and that is actually, um, one of the, the, the, uh, uh, I think inspirations for this year's theme, which is refreshing memories.
[12:01.580 --> 12:08.100]  Uh, every year, there's sort of a mantra, uh, uh, uh, uh, a saying that goes along with the event.
[12:08.300 --> 12:24.920]  And I really like this attitude of like, Hey, you know, we're bringing in new people that may not necessarily have come up with, um, these protocols and, and, um, um, we should provide a way for people to, to be brought into some of the foundational stuff because so many of the other more technical things are,
[12:25.040 --> 12:27.780]  are based on these, um, basic principles.
[12:27.980 --> 12:37.640]  There's another one like introduction, um, to deep learning, um, you know, really, uh, great introductory stuff, which I think it makes it more and more approachable.
[12:37.780 --> 12:39.580]  But Mitch, you've already been on the site.
[12:39.720 --> 12:42.500]  So I'd like to ask you, what's, what's jumped out at you so far?
[12:44.340 --> 12:45.840]  Oh, it's really beautiful.
[12:46.460 --> 12:53.300]  Um, you know, there's this, uh, the, the Congress center that being held in is, is Mongo huge.
[12:53.720 --> 13:12.420]  And they've converted this very terrible space with just lots of rectangular block buildings into just this gorgeous place to wander around in and just with your mouth open with lighting and, uh, all these different mood effects.
[13:12.580 --> 13:14.480]  And then all the people have been setting up today.
[13:15.060 --> 13:21.840]  And, um, there's just some things that are incredibly beautiful and some things that are just totally bizarre.
[13:22.260 --> 13:27.580]  And you're wondering what it's going to be when they start, uh, uh, activating it.
[13:27.580 --> 13:38.420]  Uh, there's this one, uh, tetrahedron that has a foam chair inside of it with lights that look like maybe blink at brainwave frequencies.
[13:38.940 --> 13:42.900]  And some guys that I control, I have no idea what's going to go on in there.
[13:43.820 --> 14:01.880]  Um, there's, uh, uh, one wall, which is, um, about 30 feet tall and about maybe 60, 70 feet wide, just piled with, uh, deck chairs and, um, they're being lit with LEDs.
[14:02.580 --> 14:05.180]  And the people are just setting it up now.
[14:05.200 --> 14:08.700]  So I don't know what that's going to be when it gets activated.
[14:09.060 --> 14:12.460]  Um, but yeah, everywhere you go, you see different things.
[14:12.580 --> 14:17.920]  And like you said, you walk and wander around and probably never see everything in the whole four days.
[14:18.140 --> 14:33.280]  Uh, so it's just really, uh, all these different spaces that they created in the block rectangles, uh, are kind of like these mysterious passageways that you can wander around in and get lost in and wonder what's around the next corner.
[14:33.500 --> 14:46.460]  So that's, that's what I really love about, uh, the people who come together to make this, just making this mysterious, beautiful space out of something which is usually sterile and mundane.
[14:47.040 --> 14:47.400]  Excellent.
[14:47.700 --> 14:49.680]  And so you've got brainwaves and you've got deck chairs.
[14:49.880 --> 15:02.700]  I think that covers both ends of things, but, uh, uh, Mitch, you've, uh, you, you've been, you've, you've of course been like, uh, a wonderful fixture at events like this with, uh, with the work you do in, uh, in the hardware hacking areas and, uh, and elsewhere.
[15:02.820 --> 15:08.600]  Could you talk a little bit about, um, what it is you're, you're actually doing there and, uh, like how you, how you got into that?
[15:10.180 --> 15:17.280]  Uh, well, um, my first hacker conference was, um, uh, hope in 2006.
[15:17.480 --> 15:27.060]  And, uh, I went there and there was, um, all of these amazing talks, all these amazing people who love sharing and learning with each other.
[15:27.320 --> 15:32.180]  And, um, wow, I met all these people who are still a big part of my life now.
[15:32.180 --> 15:39.580]  And, um, but one of the things that struck me is that there wasn't much of any people actually making anything.
[15:40.220 --> 15:48.680]  Um, people were bringing projects that they had already made, uh, whether it's software or hardware or, uh, art or, um, music even.
[15:49.240 --> 16:00.560]  Um, and, um, so I, I thought it would be really cool to, uh, actually teach one of the things I love doing, which is making things with electronics, which involves soldering.
[16:01.440 --> 16:10.040]  And, um, so the next time a hope came around, I was, uh, there with a bunch of soldering irons and it was really, really popular and really, really fun.
[16:10.580 --> 16:18.720]  And, um, and I've been doing that at hacker conferences all around the world ever since and hacker spaces since they started up soon thereafter.
[16:19.720 --> 16:40.160]  And, um, I love teaching at all levels, but I especially love teaching people who've never made anything or who are kind of, uh, intimidated by making things and making it easy and inviting and fun and enjoyable to learn to do things that people thought maybe they couldn't even do or things that were for other people and not,
[16:40.160 --> 16:40.820]  not for me.
[16:40.940 --> 16:43.520]  I'm, I'm just like a total beginner.
[16:43.720 --> 16:57.120]  I couldn't do that, but I show people very easily that, you know, that anyone can do this stuff and learn the basics and, uh, and then go on to play and actually get good at it if they're interested in it.
[16:58.060 --> 16:58.460]  Absolutely.
[16:58.640 --> 17:10.460]  And I can personally attest, like I had, uh, I think the first time I sat for one of your, uh, learn how to solder classes at, at Hope, I, I had already been working as a hardware engineer and soldering professionally for something like a decade.
[17:10.460 --> 17:15.800]  And still I learned a whole lot and became a much better solderer after, after, uh, learning from you.
[17:15.960 --> 17:17.560]  So I, I've always appreciated that.
[17:18.120 --> 17:24.620]  Um, so, uh, so Emmanuel, uh, what, what, uh, what, what's it, what's it, uh, what's the feeling like out there?
[17:24.720 --> 17:26.460]  Because, uh, I know new year's is coming up.
[17:26.540 --> 17:32.420]  There's that going on at the, you know, things are, things are gathering around the, uh, around the conference and getting everything ready for that.
[17:32.620 --> 17:39.600]  So like, what's, uh, what, what's, what's your, what's your day been like before you got woken up in the middle of the night to come, uh, do a radio show?
[17:41.140 --> 17:50.400]  Well, actually I, I, I've been up, Kyle and I have both been up pretty much since early morning because we woke up in England, uh, and we had to take, um, uh, several trains to get here.
[17:50.580 --> 17:55.620]  I have to say it is just, uh, amazing to be in countries where trains are taken seriously.
[17:56.000 --> 18:03.800]  Uh, we took, um, uh, a train from London, uh, to Brussels and then from Brussels to Frankfurt and then from Frankfurt to Leipzig.
[18:04.360 --> 18:06.400]  And, um, not one of them was late.
[18:06.460 --> 18:07.280]  They were all on time.
[18:07.360 --> 18:16.720]  At one point we, we had a, a 20 minute connection that we were kind of worried about, uh, but we made it in five minutes because everything was, was working like clockwork.
[18:17.060 --> 18:29.020]  Um, it's amazing what you can do when you pour resources into the things that matter, things like healthcare, things like mass transit, uh, it really benefits the people and, and you're able to get around so much easier.
[18:29.140 --> 18:34.340]  So while we did a lot of traveling today, went through four countries, uh, it wasn't stressful.
[18:34.620 --> 18:35.400]  It was very comfortable.
[18:35.640 --> 18:44.620]  We were able to do all kinds of things on the train, such as, uh, uh, uh, plug in our laptops and, and, uh, surf the web on their free wifi that they offer.
[18:45.140 --> 18:52.220]  Uh, it's, it's just, um, a different kind of life where, uh, you feel a lot more relaxed and you can be more productive.
[18:52.560 --> 18:55.820]  I, I, I, I, every time I come here, I realize that.
[18:56.000 --> 19:05.420]  And I, I, I go back inspired and it takes me about two weeks before I get disillusioned because of all the, uh, uh, you know, the people trying to convince you that it'll never work.
[19:05.420 --> 19:10.460]  You know, that that's what they said way back when we didn't have any hacker conferences in the States.
[19:10.580 --> 19:13.640]  And when we started to do hope, they said it could never work in the States.
[19:13.960 --> 19:16.420]  The thing is, everything can work in the States.
[19:16.420 --> 19:20.620]  If you have the mindset to do it, if you have the determination to do it.
[19:20.980 --> 19:34.280]  And I just think we need more people to, um, uh, to step up for whatever it is, whatever the challenge happens to be, whether it's, it's, uh, you know, getting a working rail system or working healthcare or, or better technology of all sorts.
[19:34.280 --> 19:36.460]  Uh, it's, it's, it's all possible.
[19:36.460 --> 19:44.280]  And there's nothing better than going to a hacker conference, such as CCC to get inspired and to realize that anything is possible.
[19:44.480 --> 19:45.260]  Yeah, definitely.
[19:45.760 --> 19:56.560]  One other, um, thing in that kind of, uh, realm is the data product data production schemes, the GDPR, um, which has been implemented widely here in Europe.
[19:56.580 --> 20:03.100]  And it's something that, you know, maybe I think we're not quite realizing we could have as well in the U S.
[20:03.100 --> 20:18.320]  Um, when you log on and, and try to, um, navigate to whatever website it is, very often you get, um, a splash screen warning you or telling you about how your privacy, um, will be handled by that company.
[20:18.520 --> 20:20.200]  And it is pervasive.
[20:20.460 --> 20:22.660]  It's everywhere and pretty jarring.
[20:22.840 --> 20:23.000]  Yeah.
[20:23.020 --> 20:34.740]  You tend to kind of take it for granted and click, okay, I want to go to the website, but what that really means and, and the seriousness with which they're taking that implementation is really noticeable.
[20:35.040 --> 20:42.840]  And, um, kind of one of the most immediate things I noticed when traveling and using internet, uh, uh, along the way.
[20:43.020 --> 20:43.400]  Yeah.
[20:43.400 --> 20:51.460]  It's, it's a bit of a pain in the ass because virtually every site you go to, uh, you get a little, uh, pop-up box that tells you that they're using cookies.
[20:51.600 --> 20:53.640]  I'll, I'll read you what it says on the flash dot actually.
[20:53.820 --> 20:55.560]  Uh, it says, we value your privacy.
[20:55.780 --> 21:05.420]  Our site is supported by advertising and we and our partners use technology such as cookies on our site to personalize content and ads, provide social media features and analyze our traffic.
[21:05.700 --> 21:09.300]  Click, I accept below to consent to the use of this technology across the web.
[21:09.500 --> 21:15.500]  You can change your mind and change your consent choices at any time by returning to this site and clicking the privacy choices link.
[21:15.680 --> 21:21.040]  And by choosing, I accept below, you're also helping to support our site and improve your browsing experience.
[21:21.140 --> 21:23.860]  You'll get a message like that on almost any site that you visit.
[21:24.480 --> 21:28.480]  Uh, or you may get a message like what you, uh, will find if you go to the New York Daily News.
[21:28.880 --> 21:33.400]  Uh, they say, unfortunately, our website is currently unavailable in most European countries.
[21:33.540 --> 21:39.680]  We are engaged on the issue and committed to looking at options that support our full range of digital offerings to the EU market.
[21:39.900 --> 21:45.760]  We continue to identify technical compliant solutions that will provide all readers with our award-winning journalism.
[21:46.320 --> 21:50.900]  Uh, well, you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a variety of, um, of results that you'll get.
[21:51.220 --> 21:52.920]  Uh, when you surf the web.
[21:53.220 --> 22:00.060]  Uh, but it's, uh, it's very different from the States because of this, um, of this new law that has been implemented.
[22:00.900 --> 22:01.340]  Hmm.
[22:01.760 --> 22:04.140]  And, uh, so you mentioned you've been through four countries today?
[22:06.080 --> 22:06.700]  That's correct.
[22:06.740 --> 22:06.940]  Yes.
[22:07.060 --> 22:09.800]  England, uh, France, Belgium, and Germany.
[22:10.860 --> 22:11.300]  Wow.
[22:11.560 --> 22:15.060]  So you guys have been, uh, doing a really interesting bit of running around.
[22:15.240 --> 22:22.420]  Uh, I'll briefly mention if you listen to your, your other radio show that you do on a different station, um, also available at 2600.com.
[22:22.660 --> 22:36.500]  Um, you, you've been, you've been posting a, a really fun sort of, uh, uh, travelogue, um, that, uh, but, but do you want to, do you want to give like the, the very encapsulated, uh, sort of cliff notes version for listeners of this program?
[22:37.580 --> 22:40.060]  Well, yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll give the, the quick version.
[22:40.120 --> 22:45.100]  If you want the extended version, uh, simply, uh, go to 2600.com slash off the wall.
[22:45.760 --> 22:52.100]  And, uh, you can hear, uh, uh, Kyle and I, uh, basically recording in all various parts of the world that we, uh, venture to.
[22:52.360 --> 22:59.100]  Uh, but we, uh, we started off, uh, in a, well, uh, talk about hackers, uh, hacking the system.
[22:59.460 --> 23:04.680]  We, we managed to get on the Queen Mary too, which is something that, uh, we normally could never afford to do.
[23:05.260 --> 23:20.940]  Uh, but, uh, by, by calculating in a certain way and realizing that, hey, this includes, uh, food, this includes lodging and this includes travel, we realized that it's pretty much cheaper than anything that we could do if we simply flew over and stayed in places that you have to pay money for.
[23:21.200 --> 23:26.720]  Uh, so we wound up, um, on the QM2, somehow we got upgraded to an even higher level.
[23:26.840 --> 23:27.760]  I don't know how this happened.
[23:27.880 --> 23:28.840]  Maybe we have friends there.
[23:28.960 --> 23:30.120]  It was really amazing.
[23:30.120 --> 23:36.620]  We wound up in the, the top tier, uh, of, of people who are already, as far as I'm concerned, in the top tier.
[23:37.160 --> 23:48.160]  Uh, we basically, we're in a situation where we're hanging out with very, very rich people, uh, talking to them about all sorts of things, including hacking, including, uh, the digital world, including all sorts of things.
[23:48.180 --> 23:49.080]  It was really fascinating.
[23:49.580 --> 23:53.960]  Uh, and, um, we, um, we, we had to wear tuxedos three nights of the week.
[23:54.060 --> 23:59.360]  We had to wear suits the other nights because they just are very old fashioned and very formal.
[23:59.520 --> 24:03.240]  It's the only ocean liner left that goes across the Atlantic ocean.
[24:03.240 --> 24:07.000]  It's not like a cruise ship where you just go and waste time on an island somewhere.
[24:07.200 --> 24:08.780]  You actually are using it for transportation.
[24:09.260 --> 24:11.600]  Uh, so it's just weird being in that world.
[24:11.700 --> 24:16.320]  And I think, you know, part of the hacker realm is exploring worlds that you don't belong in.
[24:16.480 --> 24:18.380]  And we sure didn't belong in that world.
[24:18.480 --> 24:28.060]  It was, it was something that, uh, uh, it, uh, second time I actually was on that phone first time for Kyle, but it's, it's simply something I think everybody should experience.
[24:28.060 --> 24:28.480]  Yeah.
[24:28.700 --> 24:37.940]  I'll, I'll just add that it's this, this space in between when you fly, you really take for granted what is actually going on under you, uh, in the sea.
[24:37.940 --> 24:40.360]  And we don't know that much about the ocean.
[24:40.500 --> 24:57.360]  I mean, people have been traveling and exploring with it for, for so long, but individually our relationship with just the, the strength and, and how exposed you are out there in the sea, um, is, is something I would, I would suggest everybody maybe, uh,
[24:57.420 --> 25:04.220]  give a try if possible, but I just appreciated so much that this ocean liner is able to navigate.
[25:04.660 --> 25:10.720]  And, um, so many people are able to move about back and forth on this, this particular line.
[25:10.720 --> 25:27.880]  And it's very common for freight and, and a lot of the infrastructure that we, um, you know, we depend on in our daily lives and to just experience it and then, um, take in some of the history, realizing, um, where your voyage fits in with every other trip that's,
[25:28.020 --> 25:35.480]  you know, hopefully made it across safely, um, in this, this incredible body of water, um, being the North Atlantic.
[25:35.480 --> 25:39.440]  It just, it's a really amazing, uh, one of a kind experience.
[25:39.440 --> 25:42.200]  And for me, I, I don't, I can't say enough about it.
[25:42.340 --> 25:48.160]  It was really so different, um, than, than any kind of like air travel that I've done in the past.
[25:48.360 --> 26:01.260]  And as, as people who are interested in technology and machines, uh, being on this massive vessel, you realize what people can do if they, if they put their minds to it, if they work together, they can really build some incredible things.
[26:01.500 --> 26:03.360]  This, this, this is a miracle of technology.
[26:03.620 --> 26:10.320]  Uh, we went through a storm, we went through a, uh, a, a depression in the North Atlantic in the winter time.
[26:10.500 --> 26:12.500]  It was really, uh, rough seas.
[26:12.640 --> 26:18.320]  And you could barely feel it on the boat because of the stabilizers, because, uh, it's engineered for this kind of thing.
[26:18.380 --> 26:22.960]  So when you look at that, uh, you just think about, about all the potential that we have.
[26:23.020 --> 26:40.200]  You think about space, you think about ways we can expand and, uh, and, and priorities, you know, things that, uh, really advance science, really advance our, our knowledge and, uh, help us solve all kinds of other unexpected problems that we didn't know we could solve.
[26:40.540 --> 26:49.460]  So that was just, to me, uh, something that a bunch of hackers really have to do, uh, is check out these worlds, which are more accessible than you might think.
[26:49.580 --> 26:56.340]  And the people, uh, people you would never talk to normally are actually a lot more approachable than you might think as well.
[26:56.400 --> 27:05.300]  And I, I find it to be true almost anywhere we go, whether it's the Deep South or whether it's on an ocean liner with a bunch of people wearing tuxedos or a foreign country someplace.
[27:05.760 --> 27:11.920]  People are always open to listening, to talking, uh, to, uh, being open to other points of view.
[27:12.020 --> 27:13.240]  And I think we should be as well.
[27:14.140 --> 27:14.840]  Well, definitely.
[27:15.040 --> 27:22.020]  And that's, uh, yeah, you can, you can hear that, uh, travel log in more detail at 2600.com slash off the wall over the past couple of weeks.
[27:22.280 --> 27:26.120]  Now, Mitch, I know that's a heck of an act to follow, but how's, how has your travel been?
[27:27.780 --> 27:33.000]  Um, my travel, uh, uh, depends when you, when you consider it starting.
[27:33.400 --> 27:40.000]  Um, I've been traveling pretty much nonstop, uh, all year and, um, I'm really enjoying it too.
[27:40.300 --> 27:44.640]  So, um, uh, more recently, I was in, uh, China every year.
[27:44.840 --> 27:49.680]  I bring, bring a group of people, uh, to China and we travel around together.
[27:50.020 --> 27:51.660]  We call it the hacker trip to China.
[27:52.240 --> 27:57.260]  And, um, it was a really great group, uh, as always this year, the eighth one.
[27:57.520 --> 28:09.480]  And then oddly enough, after that, I went to Dubai, um, a place that I was quite apprehensive about going to, um, cause, uh, well, basically I'm illegal there.
[28:09.860 --> 28:13.960]  Um, it's, it's not, uh, only illegal to have gay sex there.
[28:14.100 --> 28:16.040]  It's illegal to be gay there.
[28:16.420 --> 28:18.940]  And, uh, it's a theocratic country.
[28:18.940 --> 28:24.040]  I thought, wow, it'd be a whole bunch of judgmental religious people there.
[28:24.180 --> 28:34.060]  And I, uh, I found it to be an amazingly friendly and, um, everyone I met there, uh, was super, super friendly.
[28:34.300 --> 28:38.680]  And, you know, I look pretty weird too, uh, with my purple hair and whatnot.
[28:39.080 --> 28:44.600]  Um, and, uh, but people were just totally into talking to me and me into them.
[28:44.820 --> 28:46.240]  And, um, yeah.
[28:46.400 --> 28:49.120]  So that's what Emmanuel said, you're friendly to people.
[28:49.260 --> 28:52.380]  People are friendly back and we, you learn from each other.
[28:52.820 --> 28:56.940]  Uh, and I taught lots of people to solder, uh, there as well.
[28:57.100 --> 28:58.440]  That's what, uh, brought me there.
[28:58.780 --> 29:08.140]  And I was surprised that most of the people I taught were teenage girls all wearing, uh, I think they call them a jobby, these black all covering thing.
[29:08.260 --> 29:11.840]  And for some of the girls, all you could see was their slit for their eyes.
[29:12.020 --> 29:14.040]  And yet they're definitely teenage girls.
[29:14.040 --> 29:17.720]  They're totally excited and learning and they're making TV be gone.
[29:17.840 --> 29:20.400]  And they're going to go around Dubai, turning TVs off now.
[29:20.980 --> 29:23.660]  And, um, uh, I like that.
[29:23.860 --> 29:38.380]  So, um, the government there seems to be pushing for women and girls to have independent income, which, uh, surprised me as well, because, uh, the government that pushed for these teenage girls through the schools to come to this hacker conference.
[29:39.400 --> 29:55.760]  Um, yeah, so anyways, I go back, uh, to my alleged home in San Francisco where I have an apartment and for two weeks and, uh, able to recover from jet lag just long enough to fly to Berlin, which is, uh, sort of my second home now where I have an apartment,
[29:55.760 --> 30:00.420]  uh, to get ready for, um, uh, 35 C3.
[30:01.020 --> 30:15.880]  And I spent my birthday packing all the boxes full of stuff with the help of some friends and, um, yeah, and then, um, driving to Leipzig and unpacking everything and with 16,000 of my closest friends.
[30:16.420 --> 30:16.940]  Excellent.
[30:17.080 --> 30:21.620]  And then, and then staying up, uh, until silly o'clock AM to, uh, to join us on this program.
[30:21.760 --> 30:23.860]  So we definitely appreciate that from all of you guys.
[30:23.860 --> 30:23.860]  Thanks.
[30:26.320 --> 30:27.100]  Yeah, you're quite welcome.
[30:28.660 --> 30:31.660]  So, um, this, uh, this event, it, it starts tomorrow.
[30:32.060 --> 30:33.120]  Um, how long does it go on for?
[30:35.020 --> 30:40.940]  It goes on with four days, starts, yeah, on the 27th, uh, and goes until the 30th.
[30:41.080 --> 30:49.300]  So, uh, uh, uh, if you're not, if you're not here in Leipzig, uh, in fact, they encourage people who don't come to the conference, uh, to watch the, uh, the stream.
[30:49.500 --> 30:51.240]  And Kyle, do you have that, that address again?
[30:51.740 --> 30:52.460]  Yeah, sure.
[30:52.460 --> 30:55.660]  I'll read the, uh, the URL if everybody has a pen.
[30:56.200 --> 31:06.220]  It's, uh, streaming.media.ccc.de slash 35c3.
[31:07.820 --> 31:08.260]  Excellent.
[31:08.480 --> 31:15.360]  And, uh, and I imagine that will also be accessible at some point from, uh, the main ccd, ccc.de site.
[31:15.780 --> 31:19.080]  Um, although it may be a test to find it, but we're hackers.
[31:19.200 --> 31:20.380]  We can, we can do that sort of thing.
[31:21.140 --> 31:24.480]  So, um, yeah, it's, uh, it seems, it seems like a fun event.
[31:24.580 --> 31:30.020]  Um, like what, uh, what happens jumping forward a little, uh, you know, you've, you've got New Year's and stuff after that.
[31:30.160 --> 31:33.900]  Are there, uh, parties going on, uh, things you're going to be doing for, for, for New Year's?
[31:36.160 --> 31:41.000]  Oh gosh, you know, uh, I don't try to think more than a couple of days in advance.
[31:41.140 --> 31:44.780]  I've really decided to come here yesterday, uh, from England.
[31:46.160 --> 31:46.520]  Yeah.
[31:46.520 --> 31:50.400]  But, um, you know, I, if you say New Year's is coming up, I'll believe you.
[31:50.580 --> 31:52.980]  And, uh, we'll try and find a place to be for that.
[31:53.160 --> 31:53.920]  Uh, I don't know.
[31:54.020 --> 31:54.740]  Where do you want to go, pal?
[31:55.620 --> 31:57.080]  Uh, it's tough.
[31:57.220 --> 31:57.720]  It's always tough.
[31:57.740 --> 31:59.920]  I know there's so many events going on.
[31:59.960 --> 32:09.680]  Usually I think, uh, I think this goes, uh, without saying for, for anybody, anywhere is which, which party to attend that where, where to celebrate your New Year.
[32:09.760 --> 32:10.600]  No, you have to be careful.
[32:10.700 --> 32:11.600]  It's not New Year's everywhere.
[32:11.760 --> 32:13.240]  It's all New Year's in certain places, right?
[32:13.400 --> 32:14.680]  Well, you have to get your timing right.
[32:14.680 --> 32:20.220]  And unless you're like on a rocket and, uh, gonna bypass some places very quickly.
[32:20.420 --> 32:20.540]  Yeah.
[32:20.620 --> 32:25.660]  You'd have to, um, you'd have to plan well in advance where you'll be when, but I haven't decided yet.
[32:25.660 --> 32:26.240]  I don't know.
[32:27.820 --> 32:27.900]  Yeah.
[32:28.220 --> 32:31.660]  Or unless you're using some kind of Santa Claus technology to, uh, get there quickly.
[32:31.660 --> 32:42.100]  But, um, we, I, I think back to, uh, some years ago when you were out there for this event and it also happened to our broadcast hope happened to coincide with New Year's and there were fireworks and all that sort of stuff.
[32:42.240 --> 32:45.580]  So, you know, be careful around any explodey things you may find out there.
[32:46.440 --> 32:57.420]  And, uh, but, uh, yeah, so, so, um, so you've, you've got, uh, you've got CC, you've got CCC going on and, uh, you're also just on this, uh, on this trip.
[32:57.540 --> 33:05.000]  So like, again, uh, I know you don't like to plan too far ahead, but, uh, is there anything particular you're looking forward to, uh, after the event?
[33:06.720 --> 33:08.920]  Uh, like, uh, coming home, of course, would be nice.
[33:09.420 --> 33:09.760]  Yeah.
[33:09.840 --> 33:11.500]  At some point we'll be back in the States.
[33:11.560 --> 33:16.840]  I'm looking forward to that, uh, where we'll have a brand new president and a whole new way of looking at things.
[33:17.360 --> 33:19.060]  Um, what, not yet?
[33:19.540 --> 33:20.360]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[33:20.840 --> 33:21.200]  Okay.
[33:21.280 --> 33:21.600]  I'm sorry.
[33:21.680 --> 33:22.920]  I read the wrong, uh, okay.
[33:23.160 --> 33:26.940]  Well, uh, the thing is, um, we, we looking forward to a bright new future.
[33:27.120 --> 33:27.700]  Can I say that?
[33:28.160 --> 33:29.260]  I think that's legal.
[33:29.360 --> 33:29.360]  Yeah.
[33:29.380 --> 33:34.520]  We're looking forward to, we're looking forward to good things and, um, uh, changes in the air.
[33:34.780 --> 33:38.220]  And, um, we're just go Mets, you know, this is your year.
[33:38.560 --> 33:40.820]  We're happy that there is another year.
[33:40.820 --> 33:47.360]  I mean, I know a lot of people maybe were, um, they weren't so certain about that, but, you know, we've made it this far.
[33:47.520 --> 34:02.660]  I think people are, um, uh, realizing a lot of the issues and the importance of, uh, of, uh, politics and technology and society and how all those things are really interrelated, uh, in the 21st century.
[34:03.240 --> 34:09.420]  And, um, we're, we're basically, um, real, real happy to get away a little bit.
[34:09.420 --> 34:20.080]  I think, I think that's something that, um, a lot of, uh, politically engaged types and maybe the not so engaged types have been either really invested in what's going on or really tuned out.
[34:20.580 --> 34:31.020]  But, um, if, if anything has been getting you down, I think the, the best remedy is to get some perspective, like in everything we've been saying is, um, share some ideas, share your experiences.
[34:31.460 --> 34:33.320]  We're excited to have those conversations.
[34:33.520 --> 34:40.000]  That's really why we're at this event is to, uh, to hear, uh, what people think and, and tell our story.
[34:40.380 --> 34:53.660]  Um, and, and then come back with, um, with those, uh, ideas and, and, uh, be inspired by, by other people, uh, getting on in the world and, and, um, and, and how they see things.
[34:54.000 --> 35:07.920]  So, uh, my, my hope, I guess, or my, my New Year's wish is, is, um, to, to continue on and to, uh, to not be, uh, I guess, uh, too preoccupied with sort of immediate stressors.
[35:08.060 --> 35:16.300]  Because I think the, the theme in 2018, it has been very stressful for all kinds of people, uh, no matter where you kind of fit.
[35:16.720 --> 35:35.580]  And, um, especially with technology, there's been a lot of, um, realizations, uh, on the impact of, uh, some of the things we're taking for granted and, and not doing, you know, what we're not concerning ourselves with, like the general data, uh, protection policy that I mentioned earlier and,
[35:35.680 --> 35:43.980]  and all kinds of schemes like that, you know, we're probably going to see 5g in, in 2019 and, and, and on, uh, beyond that.
[35:44.160 --> 35:47.040]  And, uh, you know, those kinds of things I hope we're ready for.
[35:47.200 --> 35:51.980]  We, we, I think still are, are, um, concerned about that neutrality.
[35:52.140 --> 35:54.520]  That was kind of a, a loss in 2018.
[35:55.200 --> 35:58.460]  And, um, I don't think people have forgotten about that.
[35:58.580 --> 36:12.520]  And, and I, I sure, I know a lot of my friends don't want to live at the effect of that, um, uh, in, in negative ways, uh, and, um, and how it's, uh, being implemented by corporations.
[36:12.620 --> 36:21.100]  So I think those themes are stronger than ever, but the, the conversation, the discussions are really important to have, uh, uh, going forward.
[36:21.380 --> 36:24.900]  So those are kind of where, where I'm fitting in my attitudes.
[36:24.900 --> 36:33.600]  And we're just going to keep noticing things as we travel, you know, what's the, the cellular and, um, other kinds of, uh, communications infrastructure.
[36:33.840 --> 36:34.420]  What's that like?
[36:34.500 --> 36:35.600]  How's it evolving here?
[36:35.760 --> 36:36.860]  How does it compare?
[36:36.860 --> 36:42.500]  Um, we noticed all kinds of things with broadcast and, and other things while we're traveling.
[36:42.500 --> 36:45.460]  And all of that is fascinating to us as hackers.
[36:45.780 --> 36:45.920]  Yeah.
[36:46.060 --> 37:03.280]  And, you know, uh, what, what, what, to elaborate on what Kyle says, um, if, if, if you really, um, uh, bent out of shape over the way conversations are going and, and, uh, how crazy the, the, the, the country seems to be, um, I find the solution to that go to England because everything's crazy in England too.
[37:03.720 --> 37:07.360]  But, you know, people sort of come to accept it as just sort of a way of life.
[37:07.560 --> 37:07.700]  Yeah.
[37:08.040 --> 37:09.200]  We're out of our minds.
[37:09.360 --> 37:11.540]  We're going nuts here, but we're all in it together.
[37:11.780 --> 37:20.000]  And with, with Brexit looming, you just get this sense that nobody really knows what's going to happen next, but, but, uh, it's going to be an adventure.
[37:20.140 --> 37:21.580]  It's going to be a rollercoaster ride.
[37:21.600 --> 37:27.420]  And, uh, I think in the end, um, uh, democracy and sanity will prevail.
[37:27.460 --> 37:29.660]  It might not be obvious how they're going to get there.
[37:30.060 --> 37:32.720]  Uh, but it's going to be, uh, it's going to be quite a ride.
[37:32.800 --> 37:35.260]  But, you know, we, we saw so many interesting things when we were in England.
[37:35.560 --> 37:40.400]  Uh, and I don't want to, um, um, uh, skip over this subject, but you've probably heard about it.
[37:40.740 --> 37:45.060]  Uh, there was, there were reports of, uh, these mystery drones at Gatwick airport.
[37:45.280 --> 37:48.520]  Now, this was really amazing because we were, we were following the story.
[37:48.760 --> 37:58.960]  Uh, and it, it, it just started by, uh, a report of, uh, drones appearing, uh, on the runway, uh, and they had to shut down the airport while they investigated.
[37:59.620 --> 38:00.660]  And then they reopened the airport.
[38:00.800 --> 38:01.740]  Then the drones reappeared.
[38:01.800 --> 38:02.640]  They had to close the airport.
[38:02.780 --> 38:07.240]  It was a cat and mouse game, which went on for, uh, about a day.
[38:07.340 --> 38:13.460]  They had to close the airport for an entire day, right before the Christmas brush, which was an incredible disaster.
[38:13.820 --> 38:17.440]  So everyone's going nuts, trying to figure out what's going on with these mystery drones.
[38:17.600 --> 38:18.500]  Who do they belong to?
[38:18.840 --> 38:19.960]  How are they going to follow them?
[38:20.040 --> 38:20.840]  How do they track them?
[38:20.900 --> 38:21.960]  Do they want to shoot them down?
[38:22.080 --> 38:23.420]  Do they want to capture them?
[38:23.880 --> 38:25.120]  This went on.
[38:25.200 --> 38:27.540]  And, And then the airport opened the next day.
[38:27.540 --> 38:30.660]  Then the drones reappeared, and the airport had to close yet again.
[38:30.920 --> 38:37.600]  And then they arrested these two people, who turned out to be completely innocent, but they were arrested.
[38:37.880 --> 38:40.140]  Their names were plastered through the media.
[38:40.400 --> 38:50.820]  And then the police issued a statement saying that, yeah, we had all these reports of drones, but there's a possibility that, in fact, there were no drones.
[38:50.820 --> 38:58.560]  So, you know, at this point, you realize, my God, how in the world does this system stay on its feet?
[38:58.560 --> 39:06.480]  How do you get through a day with this kind of contradiction, with drones appearing, then not appearing, then they didn't exist at all?
[39:06.480 --> 39:08.400]  You're arresting people that wouldn't do anything.
[39:08.800 --> 39:17.900]  And the weird thing that's happened through all of this is that the public have reacted as if all of this happened exactly the way they were told it happened.
[39:17.900 --> 39:22.140]  There is a push now for more drone regulation.
[39:23.820 --> 39:28.660]  Basically, the people's names being released, well, that's a problem of the media.
[39:29.080 --> 39:37.940]  And there are going to be crackdowns on the media releasing the names of suspects because, well, look, they were traumatized, and you have to do something about that.
[39:38.040 --> 39:47.840]  Never mind the fact that if you implement a law like that, you could have somebody arrested and taken away, and you're not allowed to tell anybody about it.
[39:47.900 --> 39:48.840]  You're not allowed to report it.
[39:48.960 --> 39:50.200]  All kinds of disturbing things.
[39:50.360 --> 39:57.940]  And the manipulation of people by the way this story has unfolded is really cause for concern.
[39:57.940 --> 40:00.480]  Now, I don't know where they're drones, where they're not drones.
[40:00.620 --> 40:02.400]  I guess people are going to be talking about this for a while.
[40:02.400 --> 40:04.980]  There certainly were a lot of people who seem to have seen them.
[40:05.320 --> 40:13.880]  It's just really weird to hear the story reported and then report it in a completely different way that completely contradicts how it was initially presented.
[40:14.720 --> 40:16.520]  That really makes you think.
[40:16.620 --> 40:18.800]  That makes you think how Orwellian things have gotten.
[40:19.140 --> 40:22.160]  Throughout all that, though, England is still an awesome place.
[40:22.280 --> 40:23.580]  I love being there.
[40:23.580 --> 40:25.780]  But it is complete madness.
[40:28.120 --> 40:28.520]  Wow.
[40:28.720 --> 40:28.900]  Yeah.
[40:29.120 --> 40:32.300]  And, you know, I've seen a few drones over the past few days.
[40:32.400 --> 40:35.040]  You know, I know some kids who just got them for winter holidays.
[40:35.240 --> 40:50.820]  But the issue is fascinating because now, you know, it's plain as day that something doesn't need to actually be happening in order for people to get dragged through the dirt for it and also for people to then use it as an excuse to crack down on all sorts of madness.
[40:50.840 --> 40:53.020]  And we see that sort of thing happen time and again.
[40:53.660 --> 40:54.080]  Voltaire?
[40:54.220 --> 40:55.800]  I feel that this isn't particularly new, though.
[40:55.940 --> 41:06.720]  I think if, like, the days before smartphones, people would, like, have collective reports about UFOs, they'd all, like, have confirmation bias and then tell each other they saw a UFO and they'd report seeing a UFO.
[41:06.960 --> 41:09.040]  I think drones are just the new forms of that.
[41:10.080 --> 41:12.760]  Well, drones are UFOs until you identify them as drones.
[41:12.760 --> 41:14.600]  So I think that all makes a lot of sense.
[41:15.740 --> 41:19.940]  The weird thing about this is just that it was being reported as official.
[41:20.260 --> 41:21.040]  This is happening.
[41:21.040 --> 41:26.420]  And then after days, after people were arrested, then, well, you know, maybe it didn't happen.
[41:26.520 --> 41:27.260]  But what if it did?
[41:27.420 --> 41:29.960]  If it did happen, we'd have to implement more laws.
[41:29.960 --> 41:35.920]  And the way these people were treated, even though we're the ones that arrested them, the way they were treated was horrible.
[41:36.060 --> 41:38.400]  And we need to crack down on the media as a result of that.
[41:38.400 --> 41:40.760]  Yeah, there were, like, almost 100 sightings.
[41:40.760 --> 41:46.300]  And they were alleging that whomever was behind it was, like, some mastermind.
[41:46.300 --> 41:48.200]  And then, or not.
[41:48.380 --> 42:00.400]  You know, and again, this is now sort of been turned as soon as the culpability for how the information officer from the authorities presented it and then backtracked.
[42:00.400 --> 42:07.120]  That was then sort of redirected to the media and their coverage.
[42:07.240 --> 42:22.760]  But they're just interviewing and reporting as much information as they can because, hello, an entire holiday season and hundreds of thousands of people, or, you know, thousands of people, hundreds of flights were totally disrupted in the run-up to the holidays.
[42:22.760 --> 42:31.940]  And that seems to, you know, not really matter as much as the police, you know, saving face and then, you know, blaming the media.
[42:32.100 --> 42:36.460]  It just seems like prefabricated for conspiracy theories, as was mentioned.
[42:36.740 --> 42:41.280]  And it's just so careless when you're dealing with stuff like this.
[42:41.280 --> 42:44.760]  And we're not really getting good answers on what happened.
[42:46.480 --> 42:48.140]  It's really a lot to think about.
[42:48.140 --> 42:57.480]  And as, as we head into this new year, a lot to consider if maybe this is the way it should be or if, or if things should be done to, uh, I mean, you mentioned net neutrality.
[42:57.680 --> 43:11.060]  I'd just like to throw a little plug in for fightforthefuture.org, which is an organization that's, uh, that's really keeping things, uh, really keeping an eye on, on that and keeping things organized as to what we could possibly do to salvage that situation,
[43:11.480 --> 43:13.380]  fightforthefuture.org.
[43:13.760 --> 43:18.200]  Um, we were, we were talking a little bit about, uh, New Year's and sort of end of year, uh, wishes and everything.
[43:18.400 --> 43:33.300]  Uh, Mitch, uh, if, uh, if you had some sort of, uh, I don't know, I guess maybe a big, uh, or even a small sort of end of the year wish for, uh, those out there who may be listening or who may, uh, catch us later on, uh, uh, what, what, what would you,
[43:33.440 --> 43:34.360]  what would you have, Mitch?
[43:34.360 --> 43:34.360]  Mitch.
[43:35.820 --> 43:49.500]  Well, I'm traveling around, um, the world as I do, um, seeing the way different cultures deal with the, um, the, the great swing to the right as pretty much the whole world is experiencing right now.
[43:50.320 --> 43:57.780]  Um, you know, people all over the world are pretty much on edge, especially people who aren't on the right already.
[43:58.080 --> 44:01.600]  And, um, which is most of the people I know, if not everybody.
[44:02.560 --> 44:26.260]  Um, the tone of things in our country seems to be one where we're blaming, um, each other for all of this rather than, um, you know, coming together, working together, playing together, talking together, being respectful of one another, um, which is a much,
[44:26.320 --> 44:31.300]  much better way to, uh, affect positive change into the world.
[44:32.000 --> 44:51.080]  And, um, I don't know how many times I've, uh, posted a four minute segment of Monty Python's, uh, Life of Brian as a response to people, uh, really people on the left, destroying other people on the left for being different on the left.
[44:51.400 --> 45:02.520]  And this is a segment where, uh, the People's Front of Judea, uh, is totally getting down on the Judean People's Front, uh, because one is evil and the other isn't.
[45:02.660 --> 45:05.520]  And, you know, they're all just lefties after the same thing.
[45:05.680 --> 45:16.960]  We have so much more in common than, uh, our differences, and we can learn and grow from our differences rather than, uh, destroy ourselves with those differences.
[45:17.480 --> 45:19.600]  Uh, at least that's an option as I see it.
[45:19.740 --> 45:38.880]  So I would love it if, um, people would just consider that, uh, differences aren't necessarily bad, even if they might be annoying in the moment, um, that we can actually learn and grow by comparing and contrasting where we are and where we want to be.
[45:40.940 --> 45:41.300]  Right.
[45:41.840 --> 45:42.160]  Yeah.
[45:42.620 --> 45:57.700]  If, if I could expand on that a little bit, uh, what Mitch said is spot on, but I mean, if I had to wish for anything, it would, it would be that, um, we just embrace our, our giving spirit a lot more than we have been.
[45:57.860 --> 46:04.620]  We have so much, you know, in all the places that we have been, we've, we've seen the resources, uh, and, uh, back home.
[46:04.820 --> 46:06.860]  We certainly have a lot to offer.
[46:07.480 --> 46:11.560]  Our country was founded on, on that premise for the most part.
[46:12.180 --> 46:17.880]  And, uh, we have people who are trying to get there, people who are trying to, uh, to be a part of that.
[46:18.200 --> 46:19.620]  Uh, we see the same thing in England.
[46:19.760 --> 46:20.820]  We see the same thing in France.
[46:20.820 --> 46:22.260]  We see the same thing throughout Europe.
[46:22.900 --> 46:34.360]  And, you know, what, one thing you notice when you travel, you notice the kids, you notice the kids being enthused by all sorts of things, whether it's technology, whether it's, You know, the latest toys.
[46:35.280 --> 46:40.860]  Basically, you know, playing games that have been played for centuries or something that just came out.
[46:41.540 --> 46:46.300]  This is something that kids all over the world are fascinated by.
[46:46.400 --> 46:49.600]  And I think they all deserve the same opportunity.
[46:49.840 --> 46:55.700]  It shouldn't be based on where they happen to be born or, you know, who their family happens to be.
[46:55.900 --> 46:57.320]  Every kid should have that.
[46:57.320 --> 47:00.440]  And it's something that is not a threat to anybody to say that.
[47:00.440 --> 47:04.980]  It's not a threat to try and offer this to as many people as possible.
[47:05.260 --> 47:14.700]  If you are in a rich part of the world, you have an obligation to help the poor parts of the world because it's all one world and we need to work together.
[47:14.780 --> 47:25.900]  And it's heartbreaking to see, you know, kids with different accents, different languages, different colors, different religions who may never get that chance simply because of that.
[47:26.520 --> 47:27.940]  And we can do better.
[47:28.080 --> 47:32.880]  You know, we are the ones who are really losing by closing the door and saying that, oh, we can't do this.
[47:32.880 --> 47:33.740]  We won't do this.
[47:34.040 --> 47:37.560]  We turn into really hateful people as a result.
[47:37.580 --> 47:40.160]  And I've seen that happen so many times back home.
[47:40.160 --> 47:41.740]  I see it happen here in Europe as well.
[47:41.740 --> 47:44.080]  And I know we're better than that.
[47:44.240 --> 47:47.700]  And, you know, it's my wish that we realize that in 2019.
[47:47.700 --> 47:55.900]  We realize that we are better and we start realizing that we can do all kinds of things without at all hurting ourselves.
[47:55.900 --> 48:03.820]  In fact, it will greatly benefit us to have such a wide variety of perspectives and experiences to share with.
[48:03.820 --> 48:06.280]  So, I see nothing but good come out of that.
[48:08.520 --> 48:08.960]  Definitely.
[48:09.440 --> 48:17.340]  And for those of us, of course, travel broadens the mind and it's highly recommended that you do the traveling you can.
[48:17.480 --> 48:29.040]  But for those of us unable to, for one reason or another, we really appreciate hearing the insights from folks like you when you're running around out there and seeing what there is to see and reporting back to us.
[48:29.040 --> 48:33.760]  So, um, what, uh, what, uh, wow.
[48:34.040 --> 48:40.100]  Uh, what else, uh, I'm hearing that our internet stream just went down according to a listener on Twitter.
[48:40.320 --> 48:40.920]  So it's working.
[48:41.220 --> 48:41.520]  Okay.
[48:42.180 --> 48:43.040]  It's working again.
[48:43.320 --> 48:43.820]  All right.
[48:43.920 --> 48:44.680]  Hello again, internet.
[48:45.060 --> 48:55.160]  Um, but, uh, but yeah, so with everything else going on, uh, I think, uh, we, I want to thank you guys for joining us, uh, here at, uh, here at WBAI.
[48:55.160 --> 48:57.500]  So early in the morning for you guys.
[48:57.680 --> 49:08.160]  And, uh, my wish is, my wish for you guys specifically, the three of you who are joining us is to get what rest you can and enjoy the event, um, tomorrow and the days after.
[49:08.500 --> 49:12.840]  And, uh, we look forward to hearing more about it from you, uh, for afterward.
[49:13.100 --> 49:14.480]  So have a good time out there.
[49:15.760 --> 49:16.400]  Thank you.
[49:16.600 --> 49:20.060]  Well, we look forward to talking to you wherever we happen to be in a week.
[49:20.480 --> 49:20.840]  Yes.
[49:20.980 --> 49:21.420]  Take care.
[49:21.720 --> 49:29.200]  And, uh, good to see, good, uh, to see you on the radio as the Fed and, uh, have a happy new year as well.
[49:29.500 --> 49:29.680]  Yeah.
[49:29.680 --> 49:30.940]  It's almost three o'clock in the morning now.
[49:31.020 --> 49:32.060]  We really have to go to sleep.
[49:32.920 --> 49:33.280]  Okay.
[49:33.400 --> 49:35.060]  So, uh, do, do your best to do that.
[49:35.420 --> 49:37.380]  Um, and, uh, Mitch, want to thank you as well.
[49:37.580 --> 49:43.320]  Uh, you know, again, very good of you to join us at silly o'clock AM and, uh, yeah, have a good time out there.
[49:43.320 --> 49:48.140]  And, uh, people can find you in the hardware, uh, hacking area, people who are at the event, right?
[49:49.480 --> 49:49.660]  Yep.
[49:49.840 --> 49:52.900]  Please come by and, uh, we'll, we'll have a blast.
[49:53.180 --> 49:54.780]  And, uh, yeah, thanks, Rob.
[49:54.980 --> 49:55.820]  And thanks, everyone.
[49:56.280 --> 49:58.520]  Um, nice, uh, seeing you on the radio.
[49:59.480 --> 50:03.780]  And, uh, I'm going to get at least a few hours of sleep at my last chance.
[50:04.120 --> 50:08.560]  And, uh, so I can share whatever I can over the next four days.
[50:08.560 --> 50:09.400]  Very cool.
[50:09.580 --> 50:10.760]  All you guys, uh, take care of yourself.
[50:10.980 --> 50:15.220]  Uh, thanks, Emmanuel, Kyle, and Mitch Altman for joining us this evening.
[50:16.340 --> 50:21.920]  So, um, yeah, that's, uh, that's what's going on from the, uh, from our affiliates abroad.
[50:22.760 --> 50:27.060]  And, uh, there's a little bit of time left, so maybe I'll, uh, take some listener phone calls.
[50:27.220 --> 50:37.080]  If you want to get in and you want to get in on this, uh, conversation, talk about, uh, things that have been going on here, things that are, uh, things that are happening, stories we've talked about, or, um, anything else.
[50:37.080 --> 50:37.680]  Give us a call.
[50:37.840 --> 50:44.040]  212-209-2877 is our, uh, is our call-in line.
[50:44.580 --> 50:53.280]  And, uh, yeah, just, uh, if we're talking New Year's wishes, I, I would just like to, uh, wish for all our listeners a very, uh, happy and healthy New Year.
[50:53.480 --> 51:01.840]  And thank you deeply for continuing to invite us into your homes and into your audio induction devices of all types.
[51:02.200 --> 51:04.020]  Um, you know, we're, we're doing this.
[51:04.160 --> 51:05.180]  Uh, you're the reason we're doing this.
[51:05.280 --> 51:06.680]  You're the reason we get to keep doing this.
[51:07.080 --> 51:12.840]  And that, uh, that is important, and that does not go unnoticed, and we deeply, deeply appreciate it.
[51:13.100 --> 51:14.520]  Uh, we've got someone on the line.
[51:14.800 --> 51:15.860]  Uh, caller, good evening.
[51:15.980 --> 51:16.900]  You are on, off the hook.
[51:18.000 --> 51:19.400]  Hey, Merry Christmas is over.
[51:19.980 --> 51:21.440]  Merry Christmas is over to you.
[51:22.680 --> 51:23.400]  Thank you.
[51:23.700 --> 51:27.860]  I hope, um, the boys, um, over in Europe will get to hear this.
[51:27.860 --> 51:38.280]  But, um, I was wondering, um, if they knew about the new Titanic that's coming, and if they knew about Krampus, which I just found out about tonight.
[51:38.960 --> 51:42.520]  Um, and I have an approachable story and a, and a wish for the new year.
[51:42.720 --> 51:44.200]  Oh, please, please do share it with us.
[51:45.040 --> 51:51.760]  Well, tonight I found out about Krampus, um, and I hope that if they're, like, if they don't, it sounds like they don't have much of a schedule.
[51:51.760 --> 51:54.740]  If they can find a Krampus parade, holy cannolis.
[51:55.600 --> 52:02.180]  I'm just going to say, look it up on YouTube, people, because someone just showed me a video, and I was like, what?
[52:02.780 --> 52:09.760]  So that is definitely, like, you know, if you're not a fan of Christmas this year, you can now go around being, like, happy Krampus!
[52:10.560 --> 52:16.620]  And over in, uh, Australia, wait, Austria and Bavaria, they had these parades.
[52:17.080 --> 52:17.360]  Wow.
[52:17.460 --> 52:18.300]  Awesome book.
[52:18.420 --> 52:18.840]  Excellent.
[52:18.840 --> 52:18.920]  Excellent.
[52:19.220 --> 52:23.340]  So, so yeah, Krampus, uh, try and, uh, check that out and, uh, let us know how it goes.
[52:23.540 --> 52:24.360]  Uh, thank you.
[52:24.380 --> 52:24.720]  Over there.
[52:25.380 --> 52:25.880]  Thank you.
[52:25.980 --> 52:26.920]  Thank you very much for that.
[52:27.620 --> 52:28.800]  Yeah, and there's a new Titanic.
[52:29.160 --> 52:33.200]  They're building a new Titanic called Titanic 2, and it's coming out in two years.
[52:33.440 --> 52:35.100]  I don't normally go in for sequels.
[52:35.540 --> 52:37.480]  Will there be a Celine Dion song for this one, or?
[52:38.380 --> 52:38.720]  What?
[52:38.960 --> 52:41.480]  Will there be a Celine Dion song as well for this one, or?
[52:41.740 --> 52:43.160]  No, Pitbull did the remix for Celine Dion.
[52:43.160 --> 52:43.820]  It's not a movie.
[52:44.540 --> 52:46.860]  No, an actual boat, not the movie.
[52:47.020 --> 52:47.540]  Oh, oh.
[52:47.540 --> 52:48.440]  Um, yeah.
[52:48.840 --> 52:52.480]  Yeah, because I was wondering, where can we go with those characters after, after the ending of that movie?
[52:52.600 --> 52:59.920]  But, um, yeah, so, so, so a new Titanic ship, and, uh, and people are going to go on this thing willingly?
[53:00.260 --> 53:00.840]  I mean, I...
[53:00.840 --> 53:01.520]  I don't know.
[53:02.960 --> 53:04.040]  Give me this a second chance.
[53:04.680 --> 53:08.780]  It's a wonderful reason to be alive, to see what happens in two years.
[53:08.960 --> 53:09.500]  Like, what?
[53:09.500 --> 53:11.520]  So I found out about that.
[53:11.700 --> 53:14.940]  And then my approachable story is, um, they are right.
[53:15.240 --> 53:18.180]  You know, because they were mentioning they were on the Queen Mary, so, you know.
[53:18.500 --> 53:20.700]  But yeah, the approachable story is, they're right.
[53:21.340 --> 53:27.060]  Um, I found myself in a situation that I normally would not, would not find myself in either.
[53:27.320 --> 53:31.500]  And that was, um, doing some volunteer work after Hurricane Sandy.
[53:31.500 --> 53:31.980]  Mm-hmm.
[53:31.980 --> 53:42.840]  And you will find that, in certain situations, people are definitely very approachable and definitely want to talk and get down to the nitty-gritty of stuff.
[53:42.840 --> 53:43.780]  It's really interesting.
[53:43.780 --> 53:58.340]  So, when disasters happen like that, I find it a pattern that, um, um, or so I've heard I've only worked one disaster, I think, but, um, yeah, from other people who worked other disasters, that politics and religion just completely goes out the window.
[53:58.720 --> 54:00.500]  And you can get along with people.
[54:00.640 --> 54:01.140]  It's amazing.
[54:02.060 --> 54:02.380]  Indeed.
[54:02.680 --> 54:06.680]  And I think that's, uh, I think that's a very good, uh, thought to take, uh, into the new year.
[54:06.800 --> 54:07.680]  Thank you very much for that, caller.
[54:08.640 --> 54:14.800]  And, uh, I think, uh, I think we can squeeze in possibly one more phone call before the end of the show, uh, if we make it quick.
[54:14.900 --> 54:15.240]  Good evening.
[54:15.340 --> 54:15.760]  You're on the air.
[54:17.440 --> 54:18.720]  Well, I'm actually very lucky.
[54:18.720 --> 54:19.180]  How are you doing?
[54:19.780 --> 54:20.480]  Very good, thank you.
[54:20.660 --> 54:21.120]  What's on your mind?
[54:22.820 --> 54:38.420]  Yes, I know it's the MTA, um, like the new buses with the yellow and blue paint scheme, um, they have Wi-Fi, but yet still, you know, when you, um, you peer the device to the Wi-Fi, it says, okay, transit connected, but no internet.
[54:39.240 --> 54:45.400]  And the ones that you can connect the Wi-Fi to, you can't browse YouTube, but in the subway, you can look at YouTube.
[54:45.520 --> 54:54.100]  So I don't know if YouTube has, like, some kind of, um, I don't know, protection feature for, like, you know, people, you know, underage kids and stuff.
[54:54.580 --> 55:00.900]  Because I heard about something like before, you can't browse YouTube on the bus, but on the subway, you can, you can browse anything.
[55:01.140 --> 55:02.780]  And you can browse porn and all that stuff too.
[55:03.240 --> 55:18.340]  Well, if that, if that's, uh, what you're into while on public transit, I don't, I don't know really what I can do for you, but I know that, uh, but, but I know that a lot of, uh, a lot of public, uh, especially free Wi-Fi services do tend to block YouTube just because it's such a popular thing that uses such a great amount of bandwidth that,
[55:18.340 --> 55:22.020]  uh, it's really, it's really a lot infrastructure-wise for them to support.
[55:22.200 --> 55:26.600]  So it's, it's often much easier for them to just, uh, to just cut it off.
[55:27.140 --> 55:30.900]  And, uh, yeah, so that, so that, uh, I think might explain that.
[55:31.020 --> 55:38.620]  I don't, I don't know if there's any, uh, any deeper reasoning behind that, but, uh, we'll, we'll, uh, we'll have to leave it at that, I think, because we are out of time.
[55:38.980 --> 55:44.140]  But, uh, again, I want to thank, uh, Emmanuel and Kyle, um, especially Kyle for joining us from Germany.
[55:44.300 --> 55:46.260]  And, uh, thank you to Mitch Altman, as well.
[55:47.000 --> 55:54.980]  And again, thank you to all of you who, uh, continue to support this station, this show, and, uh, who continue to listen to what we do.
[55:55.100 --> 55:56.540]  It means, it means the world to us.
[55:57.020 --> 56:03.480]  Um, please write to us, OTH at 2600.com, because we love an email.
[56:03.680 --> 56:06.580]  Social media is all well and good, but nothing beats a good old fashioned email.
[56:07.060 --> 56:09.720]  Um, find us on Twitter at Hacker Radio Show.
[56:09.720 --> 56:14.580]  Find us on Mastodon, Hacker Radio Show at mastodon.social.
[56:15.160 --> 56:20.260]  And have a very happy, healthy, and safe 2019.
[56:21.800 --> 56:23.920]  For Off the Hook, this is Rob T.
[56:24.040 --> 56:24.380]  Firefly.
[56:24.580 --> 56:28.660]  Please stay tuned for the Personal Computer Show, live from the station here.
[56:29.360 --> 56:30.440]  Have a very good night.
[56:30.440 --> 56:32.000]  I
[57:23.080 --> 57:26.920]  want to be with, be with, be with United States.