[00:01.070 --> 00:07.850]  Hey, this is Smokey Robbins, and you're listening to WBAI 99.5 FM, New York.
[00:32.610 --> 00:34.850]  And it is Wednesday evening.
[00:34.850 --> 00:43.790]  You are listening to radio station WBAI 99.5 FM, WBAI.org, everywhere.
[00:44.510 --> 00:47.110]  The time is just about 8 p.m.
[00:47.110 --> 00:48.510]  on this Wednesday evening.
[00:49.030 --> 00:53.970]  That means it's time for another exciting edition of Off the Hook.
[00:59.520 --> 01:04.100]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:05.300 --> 01:09.500]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[01:10.100 --> 01:12.320]  We couldn't get much worse,
[01:15.410 --> 01:17.750]  if I'm for the best, expect the worst.
[01:18.310 --> 01:21.310]  I hope that's understood, but make me move!
[01:35.450 --> 01:43.690]  And a very, very good evening to you on this 2019 edition of Off the Hook.
[01:44.430 --> 01:45.210]  Rob T.
[01:45.310 --> 01:48.610]  Firefly here with you, and I am joined in the studio by Voltaire.
[01:48.870 --> 01:49.330]  Hello.
[01:49.330 --> 01:50.650]  And by Gila.
[01:50.830 --> 01:51.490]  Happy New Year.
[01:51.990 --> 01:52.710]  Happy New Year.
[01:52.890 --> 01:57.090]  And we have a very special guest to bring in, but first, just to mention this one last time.
[01:57.650 --> 02:03.530]  Next week, beginning next week, we will be broadcasting on these WBAI airwaves one hour earlier.
[02:04.050 --> 02:07.130]  So beginning next week, you can listen to us at 7 p.m.
[02:07.370 --> 02:08.590]  Eastern United States time.
[02:09.590 --> 02:16.270]  Whether you're listening live on the airwaves or live on a stream, we will be podcasting at the normal time.
[02:16.670 --> 02:17.730]  So be ready for that.
[02:17.850 --> 02:22.590]  But yes, Off the Hook moves an hour earlier to our old slot at 7 p.m.
[02:22.590 --> 02:25.830]  starting next week, Wednesday, January 9th.
[02:26.270 --> 02:27.330]  So be ready for that.
[02:29.810 --> 02:30.810]  There's a lot going on.
[02:31.130 --> 02:31.750]  It is 2019.
[02:31.910 --> 02:32.950]  It is a new year.
[02:33.290 --> 02:36.610]  And we've all been given a gift for New Year's.
[02:36.690 --> 02:38.070]  We've all been given a very special gift.
[02:38.310 --> 02:41.990]  And to talk about that, I've invited a very special guest to join us for a bit.
[02:41.990 --> 02:50.430]  But Jason Scott, Hope presenter, archivist, educator, just all-around swell dude, is on the phone with us.
[02:50.490 --> 02:50.970]  Jason, are you there?
[02:51.750 --> 02:52.190]  Yes.
[02:52.190 --> 02:53.630]  How is the sound quality?
[02:54.170 --> 02:55.990]  The sound quality is passable.
[02:56.190 --> 02:57.090]  I can understand you.
[02:57.270 --> 02:59.450]  I can get the gist of what you're saying.
[03:00.250 --> 03:00.930]  Okay, excellent.
[03:01.110 --> 03:02.830]  That's all we can ask for this year.
[03:03.490 --> 03:03.930]  Excellent.
[03:04.430 --> 03:09.750]  Jason, you were kind enough to join us because we just had a very special day this New Year's in regards to intellectual property.
[03:09.750 --> 03:12.450]  Could you tell us a little bit about that, please?
[03:13.470 --> 03:13.770]  Sure.
[03:14.070 --> 03:25.450]  This is actually, this year, 2019, is the first year in a very long time, in a generation, that new works are starting to enter the public domain again.
[03:25.990 --> 03:35.730]  So we previously had works up to 1922 that were going to come out into the public domain after the normal amount of time.
[03:35.730 --> 03:44.470]  And legislation was passed to extend the amount of length of copyright such that that did not happen.
[03:44.470 --> 03:46.570]  And it did not happen for 20 years.
[03:46.830 --> 03:56.210]  And we have finally, a little grayer, a little older, been given 1923 works as of 2019.
[03:56.210 --> 04:15.370]  So there are now books, movies, music, in theory, dances that are now officially part of the public domain in the same way that we have old, extremely old silent movies or 18th century plays or everything, really.
[04:16.050 --> 04:16.490]  Absolutely.
[04:16.830 --> 04:22.470]  And the public domain, for those who aren't totally familiar with it, I like to think about it as it's all of our property.
[04:22.710 --> 04:24.690]  It doesn't stop being the property of anyone.
[04:24.830 --> 04:26.530]  It starts being the property of everyone.
[04:26.750 --> 04:35.470]  It's part of the culture that we all share, like old fairy tales, like old stories that you may have been raised with from, you know, cultures past.
[04:35.470 --> 04:41.790]  And it's basically stuff that we all get to experience and reshare and build upon if we so choose.
[04:42.110 --> 04:44.730]  As a creative artist myself, this means the world to me.
[04:45.070 --> 04:49.230]  And it's something that we we have basically been robbed of for 20 years straight.
[04:49.650 --> 04:51.890]  And we're only we're only getting it back now.
[04:53.150 --> 05:08.990]  Yeah, we currently have a case where there are people who are able to drive, who are in college, who have never seen a new work enter into the public domain enough that they may have forgotten or even known that that was a thing that possibly happened.
[05:09.490 --> 05:13.390]  So, you know, suddenly there's a Walt Whitman story that's come in.
[05:13.590 --> 05:17.110]  There's there's a Harold Lloyd film that's come in.
[05:17.310 --> 05:24.470]  And ideally, unless anything happens, every year will start happening from here on in.
[05:25.490 --> 05:27.150]  And this used to be a regular occurrence.
[05:27.150 --> 05:32.730]  Every year on January 1st, you would the public domain would gain whatever whatever past the right amount of time.
[05:33.370 --> 05:54.010]  But because in 1999, because of the machinations of entities like the Disney Corporation, famous Babe Getter, Sonny Bono, all sorts of all sorts of people in the sort of entertainment industries and intellectual property industries were able to push through legislation that extended the copyright terms.
[05:54.350 --> 05:54.910]  Voltaire.
[05:54.910 --> 06:04.450]  Yeah, it's also worth noting that the default before it was to have every other things in the public domain, you had to explicitly say that, oh, this is going to be very profitable and I want this to be copyrighted.
[06:04.570 --> 06:06.590]  But then it wasn't changed until like 1976.
[06:07.370 --> 06:11.910]  And then globally with the Bern Convention, like, I think, believe in 1988.
[06:12.750 --> 06:18.370]  But until then, like, the idea of having things copyrighted by default was just alien.
[06:19.770 --> 06:20.250]  Right.
[06:20.530 --> 06:25.670]  I mean, one of the things that, you know, obviously you can blow nine shows on this subject.
[06:26.630 --> 06:35.850]  One of the things that happened is what you're talking about, which was automatic copyright, which meant it stopped being a case of, I have this book, it really matters to me.
[06:35.930 --> 06:40.990]  And so I'm going to copyright it because I plan to sell it and make a living off it.
[06:40.990 --> 06:47.590]  We move to where anything created was theoretically copyrightable and was automatically copyright written.
[06:47.770 --> 06:52.590]  And so it suddenly became and it continues to be an administrative nightmare.
[06:53.190 --> 06:55.790]  I mean, it's like literally every breath you take.
[06:55.950 --> 07:02.430]  So that's one of the problems is that it caused this massive, huge administrative issue.
[07:02.430 --> 07:19.410]  And the other one was that, you know, we changed what was, you know, if you talk to anybody about copyright, right, usually within the first five minutes, people go down on one side or another in terms of what is copyright's role?
[07:19.410 --> 07:28.250]  And is it meant to encourage people to create more by giving them a limited monopoly on the works?
[07:28.730 --> 07:43.090]  Or is it an out of, you know, out of fashion idea and everything we create should be perpetually the ownership of whoever thinks of it or acts like they thought of it first?
[07:43.090 --> 07:45.030]  You just go in these directions, right?
[07:45.030 --> 07:45.030]  Right.
[07:45.350 --> 07:52.410]  And the fact is, is like, we functioned under a system of limited copyright for many years.
[07:52.550 --> 07:53.330]  We have stretched it.
[07:53.510 --> 08:00.030]  And now we are in a situation where stuff is finally entering the public sphere again.
[08:00.210 --> 08:06.650]  People will remix it, get ideas off it, create things from it, and we will benefit.
[08:06.850 --> 08:07.930]  We will experience it.
[08:08.130 --> 08:10.470]  So, you know, there's a lot to enjoy out there.
[08:10.470 --> 08:17.690]  And there's thousands and thousands of items that are going to become available over the course of the next, you know, few months.
[08:17.690 --> 08:25.330]  It's literally because every organization is rusty at making stuff publicly, you know, publicly available.
[08:25.790 --> 08:25.970]  Right.
[08:26.390 --> 08:26.690]  Right.
[08:26.750 --> 08:27.930]  It's been so long since this happened.
[08:27.930 --> 08:32.710]  But like, as you said, there are thousands of new works of all types coming into the public domain.
[08:33.110 --> 08:37.790]  And a lot of them is stuff like I was looking through some of this and a lot of them is stuff that you would never have heard of.
[08:37.790 --> 08:45.510]  Of old, weird one-act plays and burlesques, old research papers, things like that, but also some stuff that you would have heard of.
[08:45.610 --> 08:50.990]  There are well-known authors, just to list a few, Agatha Christie, Winston Churchill, Khalil Gibran, D.H.
[08:51.030 --> 08:53.970]  Lawrence, Aldous Huxley, Edith Wharton, P.G.
[08:54.070 --> 08:54.890]  Wodehouse, Virginia Woolf.
[08:54.890 --> 09:07.530]  All these people who are important, like, quote-unquote, important people in our literary canon have these works that are now freely shareable, legally shareable.
[09:07.870 --> 09:12.310]  And it's going to be fascinating seeing what people do with them.
[09:12.310 --> 09:24.890]  In fact, there is an event coming up that we got wind of that's happening thanks to TechDirt and TechDirt collaborating with some other folks.
[09:25.090 --> 09:26.150]  And it's a game jam.
[09:26.430 --> 09:29.290]  And you're involved with this in some capacity, aren't you?
[09:29.890 --> 09:31.490]  Yeah, I'm one of the judges.
[09:31.910 --> 09:33.970]  I can't wait to see what happens.
[09:33.970 --> 09:42.370]  It's basically the ideas games created using, either partially or completely, from works from 1923.
[09:42.910 --> 09:50.670]  So make a game this month, and it'll be judged, and we'll have different categories of winner.
[09:50.870 --> 09:52.850]  I look forward to trying these out.
[09:53.110 --> 09:54.890]  Yeah, and this is really fun.
[09:55.030 --> 10:01.310]  I mean, gaming covers, you can do a computer game, you can do another sort of game, a board game, card game, what have you.
[10:01.310 --> 10:06.030]  And you've got, it looks like, 29 days and change left to get something in.
[10:06.210 --> 10:15.670]  You can join in this game jam if you go to itch.io slash jam slash gaming dash like dash it's dash 1923.
[10:15.670 --> 10:18.670]  And we'll put this link out on our social media as well on Twitter and Mastodon.
[10:18.890 --> 10:28.210]  But this is basically a big fun competition, which is going to create a lot of new fun work and interpret all this stuff in really fascinating new ways.
[10:28.210 --> 10:35.910]  And the only rule is, you have to make a game, and it has to, in some way, involve one of these 1923 works that are brand new to the public domain.
[10:36.990 --> 10:38.650]  A lot of cool judges out there.
[10:38.790 --> 10:40.470]  Cory Doctorow is a judge, apparently.
[10:41.390 --> 10:44.510]  You, Jason, other luminaries and interesting folks.
[10:44.830 --> 10:47.770]  And this promises to be a great deal of fun.
[10:48.870 --> 11:00.610]  Yeah, and also the Internet Archive on the 25th of January is having a public domain celebration day where there's, there's, you can go to the, you know, the archive.org.
[11:00.810 --> 11:02.290]  We have a link to the event happening.
[11:02.370 --> 11:10.910]  And it's basically going to be just a day of celebration with folks from the EFF and Creative Commons and others giving speeches about, you know, what this all means.
[11:10.910 --> 11:14.070]  So, people are going to celebrate about this in all sorts of quarters.
[11:14.510 --> 11:23.630]  It is a grand, you know, one can take cynicism about whether or not, you know, corporate forces will try to close things up again or all of that.
[11:23.670 --> 11:30.110]  But you should always take pride and happiness and celebration when things do go well.
[11:30.210 --> 11:34.190]  And this is definitely, unequivocally, one of those cases.
[11:35.090 --> 11:51.610]  Yeah, it's interesting because when the last time copyright was extended, like, when people called it, like, the Mickey Mouse extension act, people, like, the founder of the free, free culture movement, Larry Lessig, actually went to the Supreme Court and argued that because they were extending it so often,
[11:51.670 --> 12:00.550]  it was, it was, it was leaving the original intent of being a, quote unquote, limited monopoly, because they were extending it indefinitely.
[12:00.550 --> 12:08.790]  And then people at the time were assuming that it was not, it was becoming de facto indefinitely because they just keep extending it and extending it.
[12:08.890 --> 12:11.670]  But now we actually see for once that they haven't extended it.
[12:11.750 --> 12:14.390]  Are you surprised by that, that they didn't try to extend it again?
[12:15.390 --> 12:21.450]  Well, what I suspect, I mean, you know, we can all play backseat into what's happening here.
[12:21.450 --> 12:38.590]  And I'm, I'm surprised, frankly, but I think what we'll probably, if we want to take that and put our hats on, there's only a vanishingly small number of properties that in any way really want perpetual copyright, like a tiny amount.
[12:38.590 --> 12:45.290]  And what I suspect may happen in the future is a negotiation of some sort of weird tier.
[12:45.730 --> 12:55.430]  I mean, you know, just in the same way that the patents can be modified because somebody will add an ingredient or an inert ingredient and then repatent a medicine.
[12:56.590 --> 13:18.170]  I suspect we'll see something like that, but I think everybody recognizes just what an administrative, I said it before, an administrative nightmare it is to have literally millions of works on the roster and just these, you know, random approaches to fingerprinting and DRM trying to like execute on this.
[13:18.170 --> 13:28.690]  So maybe we've just turned a corner in terms of trying to focus on what actually copyright is for and why people have different ideas of what it is.
[13:28.850 --> 13:31.310]  But, you know, we'll see where, we'll see how it goes.
[13:31.830 --> 13:35.910]  The populace is so much more educated on this in the digital age.
[13:36.090 --> 13:46.450]  You know, I'm sure in the 1970s, it was a fraction of people who even knew or cared about this and what it meant and how it was done.
[13:46.450 --> 13:47.970]  But now everybody's a creator.
[13:48.670 --> 13:50.550]  Everybody's got thoughts on one way or another.
[13:50.830 --> 13:53.930]  And so, you know, everyone's a creator, everyone's a distributor.
[13:54.410 --> 13:57.290]  I do want to say one thing, actually, just for your audience.
[13:57.570 --> 14:02.610]  But first of all, for all the people who don't live in a country with public domain, sorry for the confusion.
[14:02.850 --> 14:04.910]  You can look it up on Wikipedia and elsewhere.
[14:05.890 --> 14:09.150]  It's not everywhere, but we have it in the United States.
[14:09.290 --> 14:10.350]  So that's what we're discussing.
[14:10.350 --> 14:24.650]  And the other one is, if you're going to be a hero and you're going to release something that was published in 1923, take the extra step to make sure you're not looking at a reprint or a new work that uses.
[14:24.650 --> 14:35.150]  So if somebody will take a 1923 book and republish it in 1960 or 1980 with a new cover and maybe new notes, that's technically a new work.
[14:35.330 --> 14:37.150]  So don't get tripped up in that.
[14:37.150 --> 14:40.150]  Yeah, translations as well can get tripped up in that.
[14:40.850 --> 14:53.870]  But talking of distributing new works, I know you've called for people to help out with the Internet Archive to upload some of the stuff that is now public domain and that isn't yet represented on the Archive.
[14:53.970 --> 14:55.570]  How can people come and do that?
[14:56.270 --> 14:56.750]  Sure.
[14:57.110 --> 15:07.510]  Well, so one of the things I tweeted was a link to the Congressional Register back when they had one of all the works that were put under copyright in 1923.
[15:08.170 --> 15:13.330]  And of course, what we're discovering is how many of them are essentially lost.
[15:13.510 --> 15:18.550]  I mean, some of them may have had their copyright mailed in and it never left the creator's house.
[15:18.550 --> 15:23.290]  So that's understood, but there could be a whole other range of materials.
[15:23.450 --> 15:26.050]  Now, we're not the only ones doing this.
[15:26.490 --> 15:30.530]  The Hathi Trust has been putting up thousands of works and has them ready.
[15:30.970 --> 15:35.210]  The Archive has put up a couple thousand already and we're adding more as we go.
[15:36.090 --> 15:46.730]  But it's it's now a case where you could play a part in tracking down, you know, an obscure work or finding out about where this might be.
[15:47.270 --> 15:51.310]  It's a fun treasure hunt because at the end you bring culture back.
[15:51.510 --> 15:53.870]  So it's worthwhile to try.
[15:55.350 --> 15:55.790]  Excellent.
[15:56.370 --> 16:00.570]  Well, we'll thank you for thank you for letting us grab some of your time.
[16:00.790 --> 16:02.350]  I'll let you get back to what you're doing.
[16:02.510 --> 16:06.190]  But one last time, where can people find more from you and the Internet Archive?
[16:06.770 --> 16:12.290]  Well, my Twitter handle is text files, T-E-X-T-F-I-L-E-S, like files of text.
[16:12.590 --> 16:14.890]  And the archive is at archive.org.
[16:15.090 --> 16:16.950]  A lot of people know us as the Wayback Machine.
[16:16.950 --> 16:19.750]  And we have all sorts of fun stuff to read.
[16:19.870 --> 16:25.570]  There are millions of books and movies and everything else, along with what's become available this year.
[16:26.130 --> 16:26.570]  Excellent.
[16:26.710 --> 16:32.690]  And also congratulations on hitting 50 episodes of your podcast, which is totally awesome.
[16:32.690 --> 16:34.630]  And I recommend everyone into podcasts.
[16:34.790 --> 16:35.030]  Check it out.
[16:35.150 --> 16:37.730]  It's called Jason Scott Talks His Way Out of It.
[16:38.670 --> 16:39.370]  Oh, thank you.
[16:39.610 --> 16:41.310]  And I'm a fan.
[16:42.250 --> 16:43.090]  Oh, thank you.
[16:43.410 --> 16:44.650]  I'm a fan of this thing.
[16:44.750 --> 16:45.990]  So I'll come on whenever I can.
[16:45.990 --> 16:47.350]  We appreciate it.
[16:47.630 --> 16:49.510]  Jason Scott, thank you very much for joining us.
[16:50.190 --> 16:50.610]  No problem.
[16:50.750 --> 16:51.030]  Bye-bye.
[16:53.630 --> 16:59.610]  That was Jason Scott from the Internet Archive, archive.org, also known as Text Files on Twitter.
[17:00.490 --> 17:05.910]  And yeah, friend of the show, friend of the Hope Conference, and all around swell dude.
[17:06.110 --> 17:08.330]  And can I say a really snappy dresser?
[17:08.630 --> 17:09.550]  He is.
[17:09.730 --> 17:10.970]  He really is a snappy dresser.
[17:11.070 --> 17:15.850]  And I don't think he's listening live to the show, but I'm sure someone will tell him later.
[17:15.990 --> 17:16.890]  That you said that.
[17:17.470 --> 17:18.330]  Well, I mean it.
[17:18.750 --> 17:19.810]  Yeah, he is.
[17:19.870 --> 17:24.110]  And you can look up pictures of Jason Scott and check out what he wears to conferences and events and stuff.
[17:24.230 --> 17:25.570]  It's worth it.
[17:25.710 --> 17:27.770]  It's worth the web search.
[17:30.410 --> 17:33.810]  He celebrated 9023, probably domain name early.
[17:35.550 --> 17:41.750]  Yeah, I think someone online had referred to him as looking like an old-time train engineer.
[17:42.930 --> 17:43.890]  I could see that.
[17:43.990 --> 17:44.110]  Yeah.
[17:44.510 --> 17:44.570]  Yeah.
[17:45.550 --> 17:49.010]  But yeah, definitely a bunch of cool work he does.
[17:49.270 --> 17:59.110]  And yeah, if you're into podcasts, check out Jason Scott Talks His Way Out of It, which has Jason just telling all sorts of stories from his life and the work he does.
[17:59.110 --> 18:05.690]  And like histories, historical things about bits of everything, basically.
[18:06.150 --> 18:09.270]  And yeah, we dig what he does.
[18:10.490 --> 18:13.450]  So yeah, happy Public Domain Day.
[18:13.770 --> 18:15.390]  We're partying like it's 1923.
[18:16.890 --> 18:20.390]  Again, check out the Game Jam on itch.io.
[18:20.690 --> 18:23.450]  Just check out the one that's called Gaming Like It's 1923.
[18:24.410 --> 18:29.550]  And if you'd like to make a game, a card game, a board game, a computer game, check it out.
[18:29.570 --> 18:36.230]  Because there's a whole bunch of new stuff that's out there now for you to adapt and improve and play with.
[18:37.210 --> 18:38.130]  And yeah.
[18:38.390 --> 18:40.730]  So what else is going on?
[18:40.790 --> 18:42.210]  It's 2019 now.
[18:42.210 --> 18:44.710]  It's a whole new year, a whole new us.
[18:45.410 --> 18:48.150]  And really, just what else is going on out there?
[18:49.590 --> 18:51.450]  We have some updates to the drone story.
[18:51.890 --> 18:53.690]  Yes, the drone story from last week.
[18:53.870 --> 18:55.570]  I was excited about this.
[18:56.870 --> 19:00.210]  Can you encapsulate it really quick for people who might not have heard?
[19:00.670 --> 19:09.330]  So there were lots of people at the Gotwick Airport in England were reporting signs of seeing drones on the runway and calling authorities.
[19:10.330 --> 19:15.390]  And it turned out that they haven't been able to identify any incidents of there actually being a drone.
[19:15.590 --> 19:21.910]  So the current suspicion is that it's just like a mass delusion and people were convincing each other that, oh, we just saw a drone.
[19:22.050 --> 19:22.670]  Did you see a drone?
[19:22.770 --> 19:24.190]  Oh, yeah, I might have seen a drone.
[19:24.510 --> 19:26.750]  Kind of like UFO spotting through the 1950s.
[19:27.690 --> 19:31.390]  And it's just because drones are what's in the popular imagination.
[19:31.390 --> 19:33.310]  So that's what people are spotting.
[19:33.450 --> 19:46.210]  And they ended up arresting people and claiming that they were responsible for it and then releasing them after they had their name in the newspaper and kind of their reputation tarnished and had to apologize for that.
[19:46.990 --> 19:53.510]  Yeah, I think there was a particular story going around that they might have been detecting their own drones when they detected drones.
[19:54.070 --> 19:57.110]  But it just all seemed a bit Keystone Cops, a bit hapless.
[19:58.430 --> 20:01.630]  And so what's the latest word on that?
[20:01.630 --> 20:12.110]  The latest word is that they, so after the drone spottings, they installed signal jammers, which to jam any potential drones.
[20:14.090 --> 20:20.890]  And so they finally removed those after like seven days, which is basically an admission that there was no drones to begin with.
[20:22.750 --> 20:23.450]  That's fun.
[20:23.650 --> 20:31.310]  So everything that they were, the whole stink that they were raising, the whole kerfuffle that was going on is based on absolutely nothing.
[20:32.270 --> 20:46.430]  And yet, I'm sure there will be people forevermore using it as a reason why we need to be scared or why people, at least there, need to be afraid and need to be watchful and need to give up more rights and need to slide down some more slippery slopes.
[20:48.650 --> 20:49.090]  Yeah.
[20:50.530 --> 20:53.150]  So, yeah, that's happening.
[20:53.610 --> 21:05.510]  Talking of England, if you've been listening to our sibling program, Off the Wall, which is broadcast on another station, and you can also catch up on it at 2600.com slash off the wall.
[21:05.810 --> 21:12.870]  Our intrepid reporters, Emmanuel and Kyle, have been basically continuing their travelogue over there of everything they're doing.
[21:12.990 --> 21:19.790]  They were at the CCC event last weekend, and they're just continuing to explore the world over there.
[21:19.890 --> 21:26.570]  So if you're interested in what they're getting up to, they are busy getting up to that right now, which is why they're not joining us.
[21:26.570 --> 21:33.690]  But yeah, check out Off the Wall on 2600.com if you'd like to hear more from them, and before we do.
[21:34.530 --> 21:35.910]  So yeah, that's going on.
[21:36.050 --> 21:37.510]  A couple of other stories have been rolling around.
[21:38.350 --> 21:50.170]  There is a story that was sent to us by a listener about Facebook rolling out artificial intelligence to detect suicidal posts before they're reported.
[21:51.190 --> 21:52.330]  This is...
[21:52.330 --> 21:55.570]  One listener sent it to us via TechCrunch.
[21:55.770 --> 21:56.910]  We got it...
[21:56.910 --> 21:58.970]  I know, Gail, you were reading a story about this.
[21:59.270 --> 22:18.670]  And yeah, the gist of it is that Facebook is now taking it upon themselves to keep an eye on their users and see who's posting about maybe dark thoughts and suicidal thoughts and things of that sort to see if they can try and nip that in the bud, which is a very interesting concept.
[22:19.130 --> 22:21.070]  And I'm not quite sure how I feel about it.
[22:21.410 --> 22:23.350]  I'm also not quite sure how I feel about it.
[22:23.430 --> 22:24.150]  And it's also interesting.
[22:24.310 --> 22:26.250]  There was an example in one of the stories.
[22:26.370 --> 22:27.470]  I read the story in the New York Times.
[22:28.970 --> 22:37.450]  And apparently, they caught it in whatever sort of AI dragnet they have that looks for things and then escalates them to people.
[22:38.530 --> 22:42.230]  That someone was live streaming a suicide attempt that's happened a couple of times.
[22:42.230 --> 22:44.430]  People have live streamed suicide attempts on Facebook Live.
[22:44.930 --> 22:49.490]  Some people have been stopped in the act and some people haven't.
[22:49.910 --> 22:58.490]  And Facebook flagged it and contacted local law enforcement half an hour after the person jumped off the bridge.
[22:58.930 --> 22:59.430]  Well.
[22:59.910 --> 23:00.850]  So that's a thing.
[23:04.550 --> 23:05.790]  But no, it's...
[23:05.790 --> 23:07.950]  I do not know how I feel about it.
[23:07.950 --> 23:16.470]  And I say this as someone who, for a while, was a professional social media lurker, which, you know...
[23:16.470 --> 23:16.850]  Yeah.
[23:17.450 --> 23:19.250]  It just seems creepy.
[23:19.450 --> 23:19.550]  Walter.
[23:19.770 --> 23:34.670]  Given the amount of Facebook users there are, even if they have, like, a very, very small false positive rate, given how often police respond to things with violence on their own part, this could end up causing more deaths than it saves.
[23:35.250 --> 23:36.010]  No question.
[23:37.650 --> 23:46.510]  And I think also, if you're just looking generally at words, it's also that question of where the line is between AI and what AI can understand and what it can't.
[23:47.910 --> 23:49.290]  And, you know, there were...
[23:49.290 --> 23:50.770]  I'm a huge college football fan.
[23:52.270 --> 23:53.830]  And yet my husband loves me anyway.
[23:54.610 --> 24:01.390]  I'm a huge college football fan and we're in the middle of bowl season and I know that there are people who are just bummed about the way that their teams are performing and ugh.
[24:01.790 --> 24:03.810]  And they're going to say things about that on social media.
[24:03.890 --> 24:10.610]  And if Facebook catches someone who's like, my team lost their bowl game and they're going to send the cops out to your house because they're bummed about a football game?
[24:10.930 --> 24:11.370]  Right.
[24:11.370 --> 24:19.650]  Or if you're posting the lyrics to your favorite screamy, dark golf song or something, or, you know, some old poetry or something.
[24:19.830 --> 24:25.210]  Like, we know how good AI is at recognizing the subtleties of human communication.
[24:25.210 --> 24:27.110]  It's not, it's crap still.
[24:27.510 --> 24:30.550]  It's just this side of not very good at all.
[24:30.870 --> 24:36.550]  And we're now trusting that with this sort of power over an account to just flag it as suicidal.
[24:36.870 --> 24:41.410]  And I think the risk of false positives is very much a concern.
[24:43.370 --> 24:45.590]  And yeah, I'm not sure.
[24:45.750 --> 24:48.830]  They're also apparently using AI to...
[24:48.830 --> 24:57.910]  Like, they previously tested using AI, this from the TechCrunch story, to detect troubling posts, and more prominently surface suicide reporting options to friends in the U.S.
[24:58.350 --> 25:10.950]  Now, Facebook will scour all types of content around the world with this AI, except in the European Union, where the general data protection regulation privacy laws on profiling users based on sensitive information complicate the use of this tech.
[25:11.830 --> 25:18.030]  Facebook also will use the AI to prioritize particularly risky or urgent user reports, so they're more quickly addressed by moderators.
[25:18.030 --> 25:22.910]  And tools to instantly surface local language resources and first responder contact info.
[25:23.270 --> 25:24.070]  Okay, I got a question.
[25:24.330 --> 25:24.470]  Yes.
[25:24.630 --> 25:30.010]  So if we're talking about how the data gets used going forward, right?
[25:30.270 --> 25:44.350]  So the moment I said on Facebook that I got engaged, all of a sudden, my ads were full of things for like honeymoon locations and wedding venues, and then we got married and I keep getting stuff about babies.
[25:44.530 --> 25:46.030]  Facebook wants us to have a baby.
[25:46.610 --> 25:55.010]  And I cannot help but wonder what kind of information this could lead to, you know?
[25:55.250 --> 25:55.750]  Right.
[25:56.010 --> 26:02.490]  If you get flagged as being a suicide risk by Facebook, how are they going to use that information going forward?
[26:02.790 --> 26:03.230]  Yeah.
[26:03.410 --> 26:06.330]  It could lead to like higher insurance rates or something like that.
[26:06.450 --> 26:06.770]  Absolutely.
[26:06.770 --> 26:26.370]  Which is another reason why it's important that Facebook is able to, even though it's problematic that Facebook has a monopoly on all your private data, it's still less problematic than had a lot of smaller companies known that data, like that you are suicidal because at least now,
[26:27.010 --> 26:41.070]  because otherwise everybody, there would be lots of companies be able to sell that data that you're suicidal to your insurance companies and that they would charge you higher rates, whereas Facebook won't necessarily... it's just one outlet with it, which is less bad.
[26:41.710 --> 26:42.190]  Yeah.
[26:42.450 --> 26:42.770]  I don't know.
[26:42.950 --> 26:55.830]  It worries me because, I mean, Facebook worries me in general and all the companies like Facebook, whose business model basically depends on collecting as much info about you as possible and packaging it up and selling it to whoever wants it for whatever reason.
[26:56.350 --> 27:01.750]  And, uh, although, although there's the whole, uh, there's the whole, um, what's it called?
[27:01.850 --> 27:03.790]  The, the medical, uh, regulation.
[27:04.230 --> 27:04.290]  HIPAA?
[27:04.430 --> 27:04.730]  HIPAA.
[27:04.950 --> 27:05.090]  Yes.
[27:05.230 --> 27:05.530]  Thank you.
[27:06.030 --> 27:14.370]  Um, where, where, uh, where medical issues and medical records are considered very private and, uh, very non-shareable despite all the times they get inadvertently shared.
[27:14.830 --> 27:16.110]  Um, yeah.
[27:16.250 --> 27:28.670]  What, uh, what, what will it lead to when that information also maybe includes, uh, whether or not you've had, uh, or expressed these sorts of dark thoughts or been recognized as such from, uh, from Facebook AI.
[27:29.450 --> 27:34.210]  So this, this, uh, this I think is worth, uh, I think this is worth keeping an eye on.
[27:34.390 --> 27:41.010]  And, uh, of course, this is not saying that we take, uh, the subject of suicide or depression or dark thoughts, uh, very lightly.
[27:41.190 --> 27:45.570]  It's, uh, it's something I know, um, folks in this room have dealt with.
[27:45.830 --> 27:51.690]  And yeah, uh, just, uh, just to, just to mention it here, if you are having such thoughts, the, uh, U.S.
[27:51.970 --> 28:00.550]  National Suicide Prevention Hotline, uh, does incredible work and you can reach them anytime, day or night at 800-273-8255.
[28:00.710 --> 28:06.070]  That's 800-273-TALK and, uh, they, they, they are there to do just that.
[28:06.190 --> 28:07.990]  They're there to talk, but, uh, yeah.
[28:08.190 --> 28:19.150]  So this is, this is going on and this is another, another dimension to the information that, uh, that social media companies are collecting, I guess, and, uh, looking for.
[28:19.510 --> 28:19.770]  But?
[28:19.970 --> 28:20.290]  But?
[28:20.290 --> 28:32.890]  Interesting side note, uh, Facebook said, from the Times, Facebook said, its suicide risk scoring system worked worldwide in English, Spanish, Portuguese, and Arabic, except for the European Union.
[28:34.230 --> 28:38.970]  So, what's interesting to me is if, apparently, you're suicidal in French, they can't help you.
[28:40.970 --> 28:45.370]  So, so if you're, if you're expressing suicidal thoughts, try not to do so in French?
[28:45.890 --> 28:49.350]  Well, there are places outside of the European Union that speak French.
[28:49.350 --> 28:50.310]  No, absolutely.
[28:50.530 --> 28:58.030]  But I'm saying, like, if you're in Canada, if you're in Quebec, if you're suicidal in Quebec and you're speaking in French, the AI is not going to catch you.
[28:58.330 --> 28:59.750]  The AI is not working in French.
[29:00.430 --> 29:00.710]  Okay.
[29:00.990 --> 29:01.510]  S'enferbleu.
[29:01.770 --> 29:01.950]  Anyway.
[29:03.790 --> 29:04.530]  Moving on.
[29:05.130 --> 29:06.470]  Uh, yeah.
[29:06.710 --> 29:09.330]  Uh, talking, talking of, uh, talking of emergencies.
[29:09.330 --> 29:17.470]  Uh, the, the CenturyLink outage that, uh, happened across the U.S., uh, last week, um, also took 9-1-1 emergency services down.
[29:17.710 --> 29:19.290]  Uh, did you, did you guys see this story?
[29:20.450 --> 29:20.970]  Yeah.
[29:21.250 --> 29:29.550]  So, it's a single, uh, the backbone provider that, uh, responsible for so many 9-1-1 providers that, basically, is unavailable across the country.
[29:30.110 --> 29:30.670]  Mm-hmm.
[29:30.850 --> 29:35.070]  So, so again, uh, this is, this is 9-1-1 getting centralized, all using the same service.
[29:35.370 --> 29:42.970]  And, uh, one system goes down, basically, and 9-1-1 all across the country in, in various places was, was affected.
[29:43.230 --> 29:49.330]  Um, the outage, uh, apparently over, uh, only affected cellular calls to 9-1-1, mobile calls, and not landline calls.
[29:49.690 --> 30:00.510]  So, if you're, if you're one of those lucky folks that still have a legit landline, um, I, I'm guessing that doesn't include, like, VoIP lines, uh, cable modem landlines, uh, Fios, that sort of thing.
[30:00.710 --> 30:03.090]  So, we're saying this is not helpful to a lot of people?
[30:03.350 --> 30:04.390]  Not so many.
[30:04.790 --> 30:05.530]  Not so many.
[30:05.930 --> 30:15.550]  Uh, the areas affected included Seattle, Washington, Salt Lake City, Utah, uh, several other states, including Idaho, Oregon, Arizona, Missouri, were also affected, uh, this from, also from TechCrunch.
[30:15.990 --> 30:29.750]  Uh, many other police departments tweeted out alternative numbers for 9-1-1 in the event of emergency, because this being the system that, uh, uh, it seems redirects the dialing of 9-1-1 to your local, uh, operators and departments, rather than, yeah.
[30:31.070 --> 30:32.110]  So, so, yeah.
[30:32.550 --> 30:39.810]  So, it's the same sort of system that, like, if I try to call a rental car place, and they just give me the 800 number, then they'll pick up my, and send it to the correct location?
[30:40.230 --> 30:44.950]  Right, except instead of renting a car, you're, you're trying to call an ambulance, or a fire truck, or something.
[30:45.310 --> 30:45.930]  Potato, potato.
[30:46.310 --> 30:46.610]  I mean...
[30:48.410 --> 30:56.130]  Yeah, they were able to trace it back to a single, um, uh, single network card on a, uh, server sending, uh, sending, uh, bad packets.
[30:56.390 --> 30:58.550]  Right, one, one network card in one machine.
[30:58.930 --> 31:02.950]  And, uh, for those not in, uh, InfoSec, network cards go down all the time.
[31:03.110 --> 31:06.750]  Single, it's a single part of a single machine, and there should have been more redundancy than this.
[31:07.250 --> 31:23.630]  Yeah, they've out, uh, CenturyLink has already been fined numerous times by the government for, uh, for having such, uh, similar incidents and, um, not enough, um, uh, and, uh, insufficiently robust infrastructure, but they, the, the fines have been, like,
[31:23.670 --> 31:26.770]  last fine was, like, $14 million, which is, like, chump change to them.
[31:26.970 --> 31:28.410]  So it's really not making a difference.
[31:29.230 --> 31:29.870]  Of course.
[31:30.550 --> 31:33.090]  But, um, yeah, we'll, uh, we'll keep an eye on that.
[31:33.190 --> 31:39.150]  And in the meantime, uh, if you're, if you have an emergency, try and schedule your emergencies for when, uh, the network cards are all working.
[31:39.290 --> 31:39.730]  I don't know.
[31:40.430 --> 31:40.530]  Um.
[31:40.530 --> 31:43.410]  Um, or at least get your landline in shape before you have an emergency.
[31:43.690 --> 31:43.890]  Right.
[31:44.330 --> 31:48.450]  Which is another thing we have been banging on about on this program is that landlines are still important.
[31:48.690 --> 31:50.470]  They're still vital for emergency access.
[31:50.890 --> 31:54.610]  And, uh, it turns out that was more true than, than even we know.
[31:54.830 --> 31:58.890]  Um, even us, uh, crotchety old folks on this program who are always banging on about analog.
[31:59.650 --> 32:02.050]  So let's see, uh, let's see how that goes.
[32:02.550 --> 32:11.870]  Um, something else I wanted to talk about today was, uh, was referred to us by, uh, by a listener on Mastodon, um, uh, a listener called Jeff Cliff.
[32:12.250 --> 32:15.910]  And, uh, it qualifies as this week's hack of the week.
[32:47.930 --> 32:49.330]  Love that hack of the week theme.
[32:50.210 --> 32:52.910]  And I, I, it, it just always makes me very happy.
[32:53.270 --> 32:59.310]  Um, but, uh, our, our hack of the week this time, uh, yes, as I said, was referred to us, uh, via Jeff Cliff on Mastodon.
[32:59.310 --> 33:05.110]  And, and, uh, it is, uh, regarding something that a lot of us have these days, a robot vacuum cleaner, the, uh, the good old Roomba.
[33:05.750 --> 33:13.490]  And, uh, as, as you may, as you may, uh, imagine, if you've thought about this for a while, the Roomba sort of builds its own internal map of the rooms that you use it in.
[33:13.970 --> 33:18.490]  Um, just, it's got, it's got little electronic eyes on it and it's got a little electronic brain.
[33:18.710 --> 33:24.330]  And, uh, that brain tries to remember where things are and where, where things are that, uh, it can bump into and avoid them.
[33:24.330 --> 33:40.750]  Um, and so it builds up this own little map inside its memory and a hacker named Rich Whitehouse has, uh, has found a way to basically get at this information from the Roomba and use it to build levels for the old school shooter game, Doom.
[33:41.630 --> 33:42.650]  Old school Doom.
[33:42.930 --> 33:43.770]  Do you guys ever play Doom?
[33:44.270 --> 33:44.490]  Yes.
[33:44.930 --> 33:46.890]  Long after it was first published, but...
[33:46.890 --> 33:48.670]  I, I played it back then.
[33:48.850 --> 34:00.450]  Um, and one, one thing I loved is, uh, with, uh, with Doom, it was always, uh, it was always encouraged by the developers for people to hack the game and make their own levels and make their own, uh, weapons and graphics and stuff and things.
[34:01.210 --> 34:04.830]  And of course, one thing that a lot of people did was they would make maps of their homes.
[34:05.230 --> 34:15.690]  Um, because that's a nice little, that's a nice little project to do that, uh, you know, you teach yourself how to do a map and you, you end up, uh, shooting demons in, in like your, your mom and sister's rooms or whatever.
[34:15.970 --> 34:19.410]  Maybe that was just me, but, um, but, uh, it was a lot of fun.
[34:19.410 --> 34:34.490]  And, and now you can, uh, you can use this, uh, you can use this gadget to use, uh, use the Roomba's little memories of your, of your house and its layout to, um, generate levels for doom and, uh, then go shoot things to your heart's content.
[34:35.010 --> 34:39.290]  Um, you can find this, uh, via the, the, uh, the author's, uh, Twitter.
[34:39.490 --> 34:49.670]  The author is Dick Whitehouse on Twitter or, um, via his own blog at Rich Whitehouse, uh, uh, that's, uh, spelled like, uh, rich and then white and then house.com.
[34:49.790 --> 35:04.930]  That's spelled like .com, um, slash index.php, question mark, post ID, equal sign 72, the numeral 72, um, or just go to richwhitehouse.com and search for Doomba, D-O-O-M-B-A.
[35:05.030 --> 35:06.570]  I was going to ask if that was...
[35:06.570 --> 35:07.650]  That is what it's called.
[35:07.730 --> 35:08.550]  It's called Doomba.
[35:08.630 --> 35:09.030]  Doomba.
[35:09.150 --> 35:17.410]  There are some great pictures there about, uh, about how this all works and, uh, the, the, the software out there that, uh, is there for you to adapt this information.
[35:18.070 --> 35:19.610]  And it just looks like a lot of fun.
[35:19.750 --> 35:31.530]  So if you, if you want to, uh, shoot up your house in a nice, in a, in a 1990s, uh, sort of way, uh, go check out Doomba at richwhitehouse.com or via Dick Whitehouse on Twitter.
[35:32.730 --> 35:33.710]  That's our hack of the week.
[35:34.730 --> 35:35.750]  I think that sounds like fun.
[35:35.850 --> 35:36.230]  It's a good one.
[35:36.430 --> 35:37.550]  Yeah, it's, it's, it's a good one.
[35:37.870 --> 35:43.490]  You know, not every hack has to be something, um, big or important or, you know, negative or positive.
[35:43.490 --> 35:46.470]  Sometimes it's just a little bit of fun because, you know, we're, we're all about that.
[35:46.570 --> 35:47.390]  We, we like fun.
[35:47.530 --> 35:48.910]  We're, we're fun liking people.
[35:49.770 --> 35:55.710]  And, uh, yeah, I, I, I always encourage that sort of, that sort of tinkering because, yeah, it's fun.
[35:56.550 --> 35:59.130]  And, uh, it's fun when there are things.
[35:59.830 --> 36:08.790]  Um, so moving, moving on to something not quite as fun, uh, actually a bit enraging talking of, uh, cyber demons, uh, FCC chairman Ajit Pai.
[36:09.810 --> 36:10.230]  Yeah.
[36:10.230 --> 36:12.810]  Um, sorry, that was completely involuntary.
[36:13.030 --> 36:14.730]  Yeah, no, I think that was a direct quote.
[36:15.010 --> 36:23.830]  Um, but, uh, there's, uh, there's a story on the hill.com about, uh, how Ajit Pai has applauded Congress for not reinstating net neutrality.
[36:24.670 --> 36:25.110]  Yeah.
[36:25.710 --> 36:27.010]  Good for you, Congress.
[36:27.610 --> 36:35.150]  Uh, FCC chairman Ajit Pai applauded Congress on Wednesday for not voting to overturn his repeal of the agency's Obama era net neutrality rules.
[36:35.290 --> 36:42.830]  The Senator passed a bill in May to reinstate the open internet rules in a bipartisan vote, only to see the resolution stall in the House, which had until the end of the session to vote on it.
[36:43.210 --> 36:47.390]  Um, and we all know what happened to the House of Representatives over the past, uh, few weeks.
[36:48.290 --> 36:52.450]  Um, uh, Pai says, I'm pleased that a strong bipartisan majority of the U.S.
[36:52.470 --> 36:55.610]  House of Representatives declined to reinstate heavy-handed internet regulation.
[36:56.150 --> 37:04.490]  Um, Pai says in a statement, they did the right thing, especially considering the positive results for American consumers since the adoption of the Restoring Internet Freedom Order.
[37:09.450 --> 37:15.570]  I don't know what to ask you guys about this, all I know is that everything that guy just said is BS.
[37:15.930 --> 37:16.450]  Thank you.
[37:17.110 --> 37:24.350]  Um, this, this, uh, this order, of course, uh, does not restore internet freedom in any, uh, in any particular way.
[37:24.530 --> 37:34.030]  It just chops, uh, net neutrality, which is one of the founding principles of the internet on the technological and philosophical levels, uh, to tiny, tiny pieces.
[37:34.610 --> 37:48.370]  Um, and given, given how bipartisan this, uh, passed in the Senate, you know, and then he's, then he's claiming victory over and over, you know, bipartisan victory over it in the House just because they failed to do their jobs and debate it or talk about it in any way.
[37:48.450 --> 37:52.150]  What did the numbers look like of this alleged strong bipartisan majority?
[37:52.410 --> 37:55.930]  Well, this, this strong bipartisan majority in the Senate, I don't know.
[37:56.170 --> 37:56.250]  In the House?
[37:56.450 --> 37:58.610]  Well, nothing happened in the House because they just stalled on it.
[37:58.610 --> 38:02.690]  They just failed to handle it in any way.
[38:02.910 --> 38:05.790]  And now, of course, they're not doing much.
[38:05.970 --> 38:06.870]  I don't have the exact number.
[38:07.090 --> 38:12.210]  I believe there's only like 20 or so votes that they needed to get it passed.
[38:12.790 --> 38:16.390]  They still need a lot more to overcome Trump's inevitable veto.
[38:16.630 --> 38:25.510]  But I think that given another year we could get enough pressure on Congress, we could actually get enough for a veto approved margin.
[38:26.170 --> 38:26.570]  Right.
[38:26.790 --> 38:41.710]  And Congress had until the end of this current session, or the last session now, it being past New Year's, to discuss this, which means I don't believe it's on the table now for the incoming democratically led Congress that's coming in.
[38:43.350 --> 38:44.770]  They can't always take it up again.
[38:44.930 --> 38:45.650]  I'm sure they will.
[38:45.850 --> 38:46.830]  I was going to say, is it revivable?
[38:47.210 --> 38:47.510]  Yes.
[38:47.730 --> 38:49.770]  I think it's revivable.
[38:49.990 --> 38:52.250]  And I don't think I'm alone in that.
[38:52.250 --> 38:53.470]  So, yeah, check out.
[38:53.790 --> 39:00.170]  We'll certainly be following the continued fight for net neutrality on this program.
[39:00.390 --> 39:11.830]  And, of course, I just want to give a shout out to Fight for the Future, which is an organization that's also doing so much to try and preserve that.
[39:11.910 --> 39:13.670]  I believe it's fightforthefuture.org.
[39:14.330 --> 39:16.190]  Let me confirm that really quick.
[39:17.230 --> 39:34.650]  But this is a nonprofit that's been working tirelessly to not only spread the actual truth about net neutrality and how it can be reinstated, how it can be saved, what we need to do, but just keeping the light burning for this.
[39:34.710 --> 39:36.130]  Yes, fightforthefuture.org.
[39:36.130 --> 39:41.210]  You can also find them at fightforthefuture on Twitter.
[39:41.750 --> 39:47.590]  So they shoved that into a Twitter username, fightforthefuture on Twitter, fightforthefuture.org.
[39:47.790 --> 39:50.670]  And, yeah, keep an eye on what they're doing.
[39:52.110 --> 40:01.650]  And, yeah, we'll see what we continue to do about this as Mr. Pi celebrates evil things, terrible things.
[40:03.870 --> 40:04.810]  So cheerful.
[40:05.690 --> 40:10.590]  We're starting this new year with a mix of the cheerful and the not-so-cheerful.
[40:11.050 --> 40:13.890]  And, yeah, that's life for you, isn't it?
[40:15.730 --> 40:16.770]  Talking about the...
[40:16.770 --> 40:19.750]  We mentioned the CCC event that happened last weekend.
[40:19.750 --> 40:40.790]  And a group called Privacy International presented at CCC on a really interesting story about how, basically, the gist is that Facebook and other Android apps are still illegally sending data to Facebook far more than they're allowed to, far more than they let you know they're doing.
[40:41.990 --> 40:47.610]  And there's a real in-depth investigation that they did on this, and they presented it at CCC.
[40:47.610 --> 40:58.670]  So I recommend everyone check this out in-depth if you go to privacyinternational.org and look for the story entitled Investigating Apps Interactions with Facebook on Android.
[40:59.010 --> 41:04.050]  You can watch the stream of their talk or the archive of their talk.
[41:04.230 --> 41:06.950]  You can see their documentation and everything.
[41:06.950 --> 41:12.350]  And it's kind of, yeah, it makes us question how much we trust the things on our phone.
[41:12.690 --> 41:23.530]  Yeah, I feel like this is just as much the fault of Google, the developers of Android, as it is the actual companies whose apps were leaking data to Facebook.
[41:23.870 --> 41:45.770]  Because just the way Android permissions are handled and the default configurations, it is far too easy to have developers, like, accidentally, and I use that term genuinely, to accidentally leak data to Facebook, given how porous the permission system is.
[41:45.930 --> 41:58.390]  Yeah, the key findings that they list on their site at privacyinternational.org, they say, we found that at least 61% of apps we tested automatically transfer data to Facebook the moment a user opens the app.
[41:58.530 --> 42:03.370]  This happens whether people have a Facebook account or not, or whether they are logged into Facebook or not.
[42:03.370 --> 42:08.230]  We also found that some apps routinely send Facebook data that is incredibly detailed and sometimes sensitive.
[42:08.590 --> 42:13.350]  Again, this concerns data of people who are either logged out of Facebook or who do not have a Facebook account.
[42:13.930 --> 42:21.730]  One of the most insidious aspects of the whole Facebook story is how they have basically a profile on you, even if, like me, you don't have a Facebook.
[42:22.050 --> 42:34.790]  They have what's called a shadow profile, which basically just, it's their picture of you that they build up, connected to other information about you, thanks to the tracking cookies they have everywhere and all sorts of other methods.
[42:35.130 --> 42:41.130]  And yeah, there is a ghost of you living in Facebook servers over which you have no control and over which there is no accountability.
[42:41.910 --> 42:43.830]  And it's a scary thing.
[42:46.070 --> 42:48.990]  So, yeah, privacyinternational.org.
[42:49.590 --> 42:56.130]  And we'll post a link to that talk, the video and audio out from our Twitter and Mastodon account.
[42:56.450 --> 42:56.910]  Absolutely.
[42:56.910 --> 42:58.930]  You can find us on Twitter at HackerRadioShow.
[42:59.130 --> 43:05.410]  And you can find us on Mastodon at Mastodon.social at HackerRadioShow.
[43:06.790 --> 43:18.230]  And yeah, I've been getting a lot of good feedback about Mastodon and like just from people who use it or people interested in it and who seem happy that we're talking about it.
[43:18.330 --> 43:36.430]  And I think it's worth talking about because, yeah, anytime we take a bit of the social media landscape back from closed platforms that do heaven knows what to earn their living with your data and put it back in the hands of basically the users and open it up,
[43:36.750 --> 43:38.130]  make it so everyone can play.
[43:38.730 --> 43:45.870]  There's also an Instagram clone, an open Instagram clone, which I've been playing with, which is, what is it called?
[43:45.950 --> 43:46.410]  Pixel Feed.
[43:46.410 --> 43:46.850]  Pixel Feed.
[43:46.990 --> 43:47.910]  Yeah, Pixel Feed, I think.
[43:48.670 --> 43:50.610]  And I just started up one of those.
[43:50.690 --> 43:53.130]  I've never even had an Instagram, so I don't know what to do with an account like this.
[43:53.230 --> 43:55.990]  But I opened one up and we'll see what happens.
[43:56.950 --> 44:05.990]  We've got a little bit of time left, and I would like to bring on another very special guest from a longtime friend and colleague of ours here at BAI.
[44:06.710 --> 44:16.430]  You hear him after us a lot, and tonight he comes to the station to broadcast live for the final time here at BAI.
[44:16.950 --> 44:19.470]  We're joined by Hank Key from The Personal Computer Show.
[44:19.870 --> 44:20.430]  Hi there, Rob.
[44:21.010 --> 44:22.270]  And hello to everyone else.
[44:23.390 --> 44:24.190]  Hi there, Hank.
[44:24.190 --> 44:34.210]  Now, for basically, I think since the inception of this show, you have followed us on the schedule or at least been somewhere around us.
[44:34.550 --> 44:34.750]  Yeah.
[44:34.990 --> 44:37.070]  No, we started in 1983.
[44:37.070 --> 44:39.710]  I think you started in 1985 or 86.
[44:40.170 --> 44:44.130]  And you originally trailed us, and then we did a flop.
[44:44.510 --> 44:58.390]  And then I trailed you, and every time they shift an hour, we wound up shifting with you, or we shifted now, you shifted with us, and we're tethered like maybe Siamese twins, but that's being broken up now.
[44:58.390 --> 44:59.390]  So, yes.
[45:00.050 --> 45:05.110]  Unfortunately, tonight will be your final broadcast on these airwaves at WBAI.
[45:05.250 --> 45:06.810]  But, yeah, you started in 83.
[45:06.810 --> 45:08.170]  We started in 85.
[45:08.690 --> 45:09.370]  Not 85.
[45:09.570 --> 45:10.450]  But we started in 88.
[45:10.450 --> 45:11.410]  So, five years later.
[45:12.130 --> 45:15.190]  1988 was the first off the hook, and it was just a manual in here at that point.
[45:15.410 --> 45:17.090]  And more folks joined later.
[45:17.390 --> 45:23.390]  But, yeah, there had been this kind of block of sort of the science-y, technologic-y.
[45:23.390 --> 45:24.730]  Oh, we had a...
[45:24.730 --> 45:25.210]  You know what?
[45:25.390 --> 45:26.030]  It was us.
[45:26.130 --> 45:26.650]  It was Dr. Kaku.
[45:26.890 --> 45:35.270]  I hate to use this term, but once upon a time, Wednesday night was a solid night for WBAI in terms of audience, in terms of people calling in.
[45:35.470 --> 45:37.750]  And it was fabulous.
[45:38.830 --> 45:40.270]  It started off with...
[45:41.850 --> 45:42.450]  I'm sorry.
[45:42.510 --> 45:47.050]  It started with exploration, followed by off the hook, followed by us, and followed by Robert Knight.
[45:47.770 --> 45:48.170]  Yeah.
[45:48.570 --> 45:48.970]  May he rest.
[45:48.970 --> 45:52.670]  And we really had a... really a solid, you know, evening.
[45:52.910 --> 46:03.430]  And I know that in the... when I was taking the... when I had the sample from the internet stream, because we didn't have any of the Arbitron information, it was solid.
[46:03.550 --> 46:04.290]  We were up there.
[46:04.670 --> 46:13.910]  And now we're told that the data that they're using is not reliable, but they're using the data anyway to change the mix.
[46:15.010 --> 46:19.570]  And someone had asked me, you know, what's your reaction to the change in mix?
[46:19.670 --> 46:20.370]  Because you're not in it.
[46:20.430 --> 46:22.230]  And I says, look, you know what?
[46:22.510 --> 46:24.590]  Life is short, and I'm not going to argue about it.
[46:25.830 --> 46:26.210]  Yeah.
[46:26.450 --> 46:28.030]  But so you started in 84.
[46:28.210 --> 46:30.530]  And how did you get into... how did you get into doing that?
[46:30.630 --> 46:31.770]  What got you into doing this?
[46:31.790 --> 46:34.390]  Well, actually, it started in 19...
[46:34.390 --> 46:36.330]  It was in June of 83.
[46:36.990 --> 46:39.250]  Dave Metzger was the public affairs director.
[46:39.710 --> 46:42.590]  And he said, gee, I think we should have a computer show.
[46:43.010 --> 46:45.570]  And he called up the New York Amateur Computer Club.
[46:46.030 --> 46:49.090]  And there were three guys who used to be presidents of the club.
[46:49.250 --> 46:52.730]  And there was Dave Burstein, there was myself, and there was Joe King.
[46:52.870 --> 46:55.770]  And we look at each other and says, we've never done it before.
[46:56.250 --> 46:58.050]  And I said, well, if you do, I'll do it.
[46:58.130 --> 47:01.150]  And before you know it, three guys wound up saying, okay, let's do it.
[47:01.390 --> 47:03.810]  So we went in in June to have an audition.
[47:05.290 --> 47:07.550]  And Dave said to us, you're on.
[47:07.850 --> 47:12.910]  First week in August, following Gary Null on a Thursday afternoon at 1 o'clock.
[47:13.130 --> 47:14.590]  And I says, what do you mean we're on?
[47:14.650 --> 47:16.410]  He says, I thought we were doing an audition.
[47:16.670 --> 47:17.350]  You made it.
[47:17.430 --> 47:18.710]  Now, get on the air, okay?
[47:19.470 --> 47:20.790]  And that was what happened.
[47:20.970 --> 47:26.410]  But what was interesting about that day was that, if I'm correct, it was August the 6th.
[47:26.910 --> 47:28.830]  And you know what August the 6th was, right?
[47:29.170 --> 47:29.930]  August the 6th.
[47:29.930 --> 47:30.790]  What was August the 6th?
[47:30.990 --> 47:31.390]  Hiroshima.
[47:31.750 --> 47:32.110]  Oh.
[47:33.470 --> 47:35.230]  What a way to start off, okay?
[47:36.450 --> 47:37.350]  Well, there you go.
[47:37.430 --> 47:40.530]  And for listeners who might not be aware, you are an Asian American.
[47:41.730 --> 47:42.330]  I know.
[47:42.490 --> 47:47.070]  Sometimes when people see me for the first time, they look at me and say, gee, you speak pretty good English.
[47:47.070 --> 47:48.710]  And I said, yeah.
[47:49.030 --> 47:51.010]  And they would say, when did you come over here?
[47:51.090 --> 47:52.810]  And I said, I was born here.
[47:53.310 --> 47:56.410]  And then they would say to me, well, when did your father come over here?
[47:57.310 --> 47:57.670]  Huh?
[47:58.010 --> 48:00.950]  And I say, he was born in San Jose in 1906.
[48:02.530 --> 48:04.170]  Oh, how about your grandfather?
[48:05.770 --> 48:07.210]  1846 in San Francisco.
[48:07.650 --> 48:08.490]  And then they stopped.
[48:08.590 --> 48:12.390]  And I said, well, how about asking me about my great-grandfather who came over in 1832?
[48:13.570 --> 48:21.990]  And by the way, if you notice the year I gave, my grandfather was 60 when my father was born, and he was the third son of six.
[48:22.350 --> 48:27.370]  When my youngest uncle was born, I think my grandfather was 76.
[48:28.370 --> 48:30.710]  And we had none of this medication stuff then.
[48:31.530 --> 48:32.610]  I didn't want to use the word.
[48:32.610 --> 48:33.590]  I know what you're going to say.
[48:35.790 --> 48:36.130]  Yeah.
[48:36.450 --> 48:38.130]  But it's wild to think about it.
[48:38.230 --> 48:42.750]  And so you got on the air, and it stuck.
[48:42.750 --> 48:47.150]  I mean, 1984, that's 35 years.
[48:47.170 --> 48:48.990]  No, in 1983 we started, yeah.
[48:49.050 --> 48:50.030]  1983, that's 36 years.
[48:50.050 --> 48:57.490]  And by the way, we actually evolved three, four times because with the Listener Chorians, we were able to get their feedback.
[48:58.010 --> 49:03.250]  And it really enabled us to keep a pulse on the market, a pulse of what people are thinking and what they want.
[49:03.690 --> 49:06.170]  And for the last three years, we haven't had that.
[49:07.170 --> 49:13.150]  You know, after the Sandy storm, we had no phones for three years, and it really put us at a disadvantage.
[49:13.470 --> 49:17.210]  And so it's a guessing game.
[49:17.350 --> 49:18.770]  But we have changed, though.
[49:19.510 --> 49:22.630]  We used to have important people that would call us up.
[49:22.870 --> 49:27.110]  You know, we actually have a whole lot of pretty famous guests on the air.
[49:27.770 --> 49:30.410]  And someone would ask me, well, who might they be?
[49:31.310 --> 49:36.970]  Well, you probably heard of John Scully, Jacques-Louis Agassé.
[49:37.230 --> 49:39.490]  I had Bill Gates on three times.
[49:40.710 --> 49:42.190]  So it's quite interesting.
[49:42.790 --> 49:43.710]  But again...
[49:43.710 --> 49:45.290]  Little known computer guy, whatever happened to him.
[49:47.530 --> 49:47.970]  Okay.
[49:49.910 --> 49:59.270]  You know, actually, when I started talking about that, Joe would say to me, that's my colleague on the air, he would say, listen, don't come up with those names.
[49:59.490 --> 50:00.530]  People don't care.
[50:01.010 --> 50:01.490]  They don't...
[50:01.490 --> 50:08.430]  And in a way, they're right, because I talk to my grandchildren, and they just shake their head and say, uh-huh, uh-huh.
[50:09.210 --> 50:11.710]  And then you say, you're not listening to me.
[50:12.090 --> 50:16.810]  By the way, about two years ago, I have to tell you, as Chris...
[50:16.810 --> 50:18.810]  Well, she's now seven years old.
[50:18.990 --> 50:20.010]  I have a granddaughter.
[50:20.010 --> 50:20.330]  What is she...
[50:20.330 --> 50:23.670]  When she was five, and she's playing around with a princess phone.
[50:25.050 --> 50:29.170]  And she says, Grandpa, I stick my fingers into the hole, nothing happens.
[50:30.810 --> 50:31.190]  Yeah.
[50:31.590 --> 50:35.750]  We've done that at Maker Faire, where we bring old telephones and tell kids to come up and try and dial them.
[50:35.990 --> 50:39.870]  And it's a lot of fun to see what they try and do.
[50:40.690 --> 50:41.470]  Some of them know.
[50:41.610 --> 50:45.030]  They've seen it in old films and stuff, but other ones are trying to figure it out, and it's great.
[50:45.710 --> 50:48.110]  They try and press on the numbers, all sorts of things.
[50:49.210 --> 50:53.790]  But, yeah, so how did you and Joe King get together, your co-producer?
[50:54.030 --> 50:57.890]  Oh, very easy, because we belong to the same computer club.
[50:59.530 --> 51:01.750]  The computer club was started in 1945.
[51:02.750 --> 51:04.010]  I'm not one of the founders.
[51:04.270 --> 51:09.250]  I made a second meeting on, so I guess I'm the oldest surviving member.
[51:09.870 --> 51:11.010]  that attended the meeting.
[51:11.630 --> 51:13.850]  Actually, I started off with computers.
[51:14.030 --> 51:16.110]  I was hired by Rand Corporation in 1959.
[51:16.650 --> 51:19.050]  I know, Rob, you shake your head and say, 59?
[51:19.290 --> 51:20.010]  Was I born then?
[51:21.130 --> 51:22.450]  I won't ask, okay?
[51:23.170 --> 51:31.970]  No, actually, I started off with the IBM 701 vacuum tube model, and they modified it for the Air Force.
[51:32.910 --> 51:38.230]  And it was a $15 million machine that executed 24 instructions per second.
[51:39.810 --> 51:42.430]  And now, in those days, that was great.
[51:42.790 --> 51:44.350]  And you know what the application was?
[51:44.610 --> 51:45.470]  Air defense.
[51:45.930 --> 51:46.390]  Uh-huh.
[51:47.310 --> 51:52.630]  And we had to do a lot of cute programming because we had a 2K drum.
[51:53.610 --> 51:55.090]  It was called drum then, okay?
[51:55.210 --> 51:57.450]  Right, 2-hole K of what would now be called a hard drive.
[51:59.030 --> 52:01.090]  Well, okay, you call it a hard drive.
[52:01.410 --> 52:04.470]  You know, the other day I was explaining to someone about the punch cards.
[52:04.690 --> 52:05.830]  What do you mean punch cards?
[52:07.010 --> 52:18.150]  Yeah, the years of punch cards and vacuum tubes and genuine Saskatchewan seal skin bindings and just all the stuff that went into making a computer back then, back when no one knew what the heck a computer was or what it was about.
[52:18.310 --> 52:23.010]  Well, I'm sure you get questions like, where did the name 62600 come from?
[52:23.290 --> 52:23.930]  Oh, yes.
[52:24.250 --> 52:24.410]  Yeah.
[52:24.690 --> 52:25.310]  Atari, right?
[52:26.270 --> 52:26.910]  No, no.
[52:26.930 --> 52:27.510]  No, not Atari.
[52:27.530 --> 52:28.470]  No, not Atari.
[52:30.150 --> 52:31.170]  Did he say Atari?
[52:31.470 --> 52:31.950]  I'm joking.
[52:33.430 --> 52:34.450]  No, this isn't Joe King.
[52:34.530 --> 52:35.650]  This is Hank Key, the other guy.
[52:37.510 --> 52:38.810]  This is my last chance to do that.
[52:39.650 --> 52:45.730]  So, Hank, we don't have a lot of time, but I understand you're still going to be doing your thing on the PC radio show.
[52:45.770 --> 52:46.010]  Yeah.
[52:46.370 --> 52:58.730]  You know, I really, you know, in fact, when I'm on starting at 9, I have a feature segment that I talked about is, where is radio going in the future?
[52:59.470 --> 53:04.530]  And radio is the last bastion of the mass medium that people were using.
[53:04.730 --> 53:10.230]  You know, you had the newspaper, you had television, but radio is now becoming a niche medium.
[53:10.230 --> 53:15.470]  And the internet has been, you know, the prime mover in it.
[53:15.590 --> 53:22.790]  And people are now podcasting, they're doing, they're watching TV, they're listening to programs on demand.
[53:23.330 --> 53:25.570]  It's like, I don't have to be tethered to a schedule.
[53:25.990 --> 53:32.630]  And I think that's one of the things that we all have to learn is that unless we move with the technology, we're going to be left behind.
[53:32.930 --> 53:36.010]  You know, I can name you two companies that never changed their business model.
[53:36.010 --> 53:40.350]  So, and let's see now, Sears Roebuck is selling for 52 cents a share.
[53:40.610 --> 53:43.670]  And JCPenney was a dollar and two cents a share.
[53:43.890 --> 53:44.910]  You know where they're going.
[53:45.910 --> 53:46.930]  Yeah, unfortunately.
[53:47.170 --> 53:55.730]  So, but, but you're, how can, how can, I mean, if people stay tuned to this station right now, they can hear you directly after this show in about eight minutes.
[53:55.910 --> 53:59.910]  But for the future, where can people continue to find you and Joe's work?
[54:00.090 --> 54:03.170]  Well, we're going to be doing a live broadcast each Wednesday.
[54:03.170 --> 54:04.390]  We're going to continue with that.
[54:04.390 --> 54:06.210]  We've been doing it for the last two and a half years.
[54:06.570 --> 54:08.930]  We're on PRN.FM.
[54:09.010 --> 54:11.910]  In other words, they wonder what the heck is .FM.
[54:12.050 --> 54:15.130]  It's really a domain, part of the domain signature.
[54:15.430 --> 54:18.170]  It's PRN, like in Nancy, .FM.
[54:18.310 --> 54:20.530]  And we're on at six o'clock Eastern time.
[54:22.070 --> 54:26.790]  And we are also, we can be picked up by all the major podcasters.
[54:26.950 --> 54:30.090]  I mean, you go to TuneIn, iTunes, iHeart, and so on.
[54:30.090 --> 54:36.210]  And we, Mike Horowitz, who is our webmaster, has done a very nice job of getting us on.
[54:36.630 --> 54:43.630]  And every time I key in computer show on, you know, with a Google search, 35 years is a lot of material.
[54:43.630 --> 54:44.990]  And we kind of overwhelm everyone.
[54:46.150 --> 54:46.630]  Right.
[54:46.770 --> 54:49.270]  And your website lives at...
[54:50.650 --> 54:51.610]  PCRadioShow.org.
[54:51.810 --> 54:54.650]  You know, the funny part was, we did not like that name.
[54:54.830 --> 54:58.990]  We literally called it, originally called it PCShow.org.
[54:59.730 --> 55:01.330]  And then someone took it.
[55:01.570 --> 55:04.790]  I didn't realize PC, at that time, meant political correctness.
[55:06.010 --> 55:10.810]  And by the way, some people still ask me, what political correctness kind of program is it?
[55:10.910 --> 55:13.630]  No, it's a PC radio show.
[55:13.630 --> 55:21.910]  Yeah, back when people had to be told what a PC was, what a personal computer was, because people, that wasn't a factor of everyday life yet.
[55:22.110 --> 55:24.250]  Well, with a telephone, that's changed dramatically.
[55:25.010 --> 55:25.550]  That's true.
[55:25.650 --> 55:34.030]  That's something we've dealt with on this program, too, is that when we started out, we were talking about this stuff when people didn't know what the Internet was, what, you know, computers were really for.
[55:34.350 --> 55:42.190]  And we've had to grow and change and adapt to the whole sphere of, the whole sort of general mishmash of what's going on out there.
[55:42.190 --> 55:47.210]  Rob, let me ask you, how many people even know what is meant when someone says, beam me up, Scotty?
[55:48.830 --> 55:51.670]  Well, they're doing Star Trek again, so maybe...
[55:51.670 --> 55:53.530]  Not with the original characters, though.
[55:53.650 --> 55:54.050]  No, no.
[55:54.230 --> 56:00.550]  Well, they were doing the films with, like, new people playing the original characters and lots of lens flares and stuff.
[56:00.850 --> 56:04.790]  But they're also doing new Star Treks now, and people are getting beamed up once again.
[56:04.790 --> 56:08.130]  And so it continues.
[56:08.870 --> 56:10.470]  But, Hank, I want to...
[56:11.890 --> 56:13.290]  We're going to miss you here on Off the Hook.
[56:13.590 --> 56:19.510]  We've always loved and enjoyed being part of the science-y, tech-y block with you and being part of the BAI family with you.
[56:19.610 --> 56:22.170]  And we're going to miss the hell out of you here, man.
[56:22.470 --> 56:23.810]  Well, let me just say this, okay?
[56:23.810 --> 56:30.410]  Is that people have asked me, what do I think about, let's say, being unscheduled?
[56:30.730 --> 56:34.630]  I don't have any, you know, remorse or anything like that.
[56:34.990 --> 56:35.670]  Times change.
[56:36.010 --> 56:37.530]  You know, people are responsible for the changes.
[56:37.810 --> 56:39.230]  You have to let them make the change.
[56:40.070 --> 56:41.470]  But one of the things that...
[56:41.470 --> 56:42.970]  I was talking to Joe this afternoon.
[56:43.130 --> 56:46.910]  He said, look, we still encourage people to support WBAI.
[56:47.970 --> 56:54.870]  And WBAI, you know, we've had a lot of fond memories with BAI, and we have a lot of great times with the people.
[56:55.070 --> 56:58.190]  And people should continue to support WBAI.
[56:59.730 --> 57:00.090]  Absolutely.
[57:00.430 --> 57:02.490]  And it gave you a home here for 36 years.
[57:02.590 --> 57:07.770]  And it's been our home for 31 years now.
[57:08.050 --> 57:11.150]  Well, let's hope you can get to the 36 mark.
[57:11.530 --> 57:12.690]  Well, we'll see what we can do.
[57:12.810 --> 57:15.450]  But you're going to keep doing what you're doing at pcradioshow.org.
[57:15.450 --> 57:15.670]  Yep.
[57:15.930 --> 57:18.350]  And in the podcast sphere.
[57:18.750 --> 57:20.190]  And we wish you all the best with that.
[57:20.230 --> 57:21.490]  And we'll definitely stay in touch.
[57:21.490 --> 57:25.270]  We'll have you back sometime when you feel like being on terrestrial radio again.
[57:26.130 --> 57:26.610]  Thank you.
[57:26.630 --> 57:27.150]  Thank you, Rob.
[57:27.290 --> 57:29.310]  Thank you very much for everything.
[57:29.590 --> 57:32.190]  And that's going to have to do it for this edition of Off the Hook.
[57:33.630 --> 57:36.950]  I encourage you to send us email, othat2600.com.
[57:37.110 --> 57:38.570]  Get us on Twitter at Hacker Radio Show.
[57:38.670 --> 57:42.190]  Get us on Mastodon at Hacker Radio Show on Mastodon.social.
[57:42.490 --> 57:46.710]  We're going to close with some of that juicy, juicy public domain stuff that we've just been given.
[57:46.710 --> 57:50.430]  And this is a record from 1923 by Furman and Nash.
[57:50.430 --> 57:52.910]  And it's called When It's Nighttime in Italy.
[57:52.910 --> 57:53.990]  It's Wednesday over here.
[57:54.130 --> 57:54.890]  I love this so much.
[57:55.570 --> 57:57.330]  For Off the Hook, have a wonderful night.
[58:29.840 --> 58:36.520]  When it's night time in Italy, it's Wednesday over here.
[58:36.520 --> 58:42.460]  When it's fish day in Germany, you can't get shaved in Massachusetts.
[58:42.860 --> 58:44.920]  How high is up?
[58:45.960 --> 58:47.800]  I'd like to know.
[58:48.480 --> 58:50.620]  How low is down?
[58:50.900 --> 58:53.260]  And when will we have snow?
[58:53.680 --> 58:58.980]  If you bump into Gallagher, you'll find that gene is near.
[58:59.380 --> 59:04.920]  When it's night time in Italy, it's Wednesday over here.
[59:12.740 --> 59:23.400]  If ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, college boy stood up in class and said, I looked up my geography and found that Caesar's dead.
[59:23.860 --> 59:29.120]  The reason I speak Portuguese is I'm some clever guy.
[59:29.120 --> 59:32.400]  But a polly boo means how are you?
[59:32.520 --> 59:34.760]  Then won't you tell me why?
[59:34.980 --> 59:40.400]  When it's night time in Italy, it's Wednesday over here.
[59:41.020 --> 59:45.180]  Oh, the onions in Sicily make people cry.
[59:45.180 --> 59:48.780]  When it's night time in California, you drive a horse.
[59:49.340 --> 59:51.700]  I drive a horse.
[59:52.260 --> 59:57.120]  That doesn't prove a sailor is a horse.
[59:57.580 --> 01:00:02.940]  If you lay on a mattress, you'll find that spring is near.
[01:00:02.940 --> 01:00:08.880]  When it's night time in Italy, it's Wednesday over here.
[01:00:11.020 --> 01:00:16.860]  When it's night time in Italy, it's Wednesday over here.
[01:00:16.860 --> 01:00:25.360]  When it's watch day in Picardy, they're eating ice cream cones in Georgia, 16 and 4.
[01:00:26.020 --> 01:00:33.640]  May 31, take 8 from 5, and your day's work is done.
[01:00:34.200 --> 01:00:39.380]  By the time that they have a bill, they'll bring back wine and beer.
[01:00:39.380 --> 01:00:45.020]  We'll be night time in Italy, and Wednesday over here.