It's declared war on its workers,
to fight poverty, not the poor.
upon which capitalism rests, racism, militarism, and poverty.
January 21st from 7 to 10 p.m.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
Bum diddly bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood. Bum diddly bum!
Bum diddly bum for the best.
Bum diddly bum for the best.
Bum diddly bum for the best.
Bum diddly bum for the best.
Bum diddly bum for the best.
Bum diddly bum for the best.
Bum diddly bum for the best.
Bum diddly bum for the best.
Bum diddly bum for the best.
Bum diddly bum for the best.
Bum diddly bum for the best.
Bum diddly bum for the best.
Bum diddly bum for the best.
Bum diddly bum for the best.
Bum diddly bum for the best.
Bum diddly bum for the best.
Voltaire's in the background.
And Mitch Altman is joining us.
Hello.
Wow, so here we are.
Kyle, we're back from weeks of travel.
Yes.
All right.
We're kind of shell-shocked, so bear with us, please.
Just getting used to things.
It's about 90 degrees in the studio for some reason.
Our new studio is being built as we speak,
so you might hear some hammering and cursing,
which we'll do our best to mute.
And we have all kinds of stories to talk about
in the world of hacking, in the world of technology.
Oh, and yes, we're on at 7 o'clock now.
Did you notice that?
We're on an hour earlier.
I know you guys did this last week, an hour earlier.
And how did that go?
I just feel so much less efficient.
Like I lost a day, like daylight savings.
I learned about it on page 6 of the Post,
you know, the gossip thing.
That's where they alert people that things have changed.
And yeah, now we're back in our usual time slot.
I like it better.
I like it better at 7 o'clock.
It's a little jarring.
You get to meet a lot more people on the highway coming in.
In fact, did they find the child?
Kyle, we were driving in, and there was this Amber Alert.
And all the signs everywhere, Amber Alert,
tuned to local media.
Yeah, there was no information whatsoever.
I think when I looked at my phone, it was Bronx-related.
Whatever, but the point is, why in God's name
don't they have the information on the big sign?
They used to have a license plate number or something.
Instead, they say, Amber Alert, tuned to local media.
Well, you know, this is local media right here.
We're in local media.
And we have no idea what child is missing from where.
So, you know, we can't help you.
So if you've gone to us after looking at the sign, sorry.
And the same thing is true of other radio stations as well.
They don't know, or they're not, you know,
I'm not going to listen to an hour of country music
just to hear one announcement about some missing kid.
Okay, so folks, whose idea, Alex, you're a lawyer.
You should know these things.
Whose idea was it to stop using the sign
to convey the information that's important
that people on the road should know about,
such as this car has a kidnapped kid in it
with this license plate.
Instead, now you have to go to a radio station somewhere
and hope that maybe they're talking about that
and then somehow keep track of the information
they're talking about.
I don't know what being a lawyer has to do with identifying...
Because you know things.
...that kind of idiocy.
And you're responsible for things.
Yeah, but I have no idea, frankly, who did this,
but it is such a bad idea.
It's the worst idea ever.
It's absolutely terrible.
I got so frustrated driving around before,
it was awful.
Actually, Kyle, you were driving,
but I got frustrated anyway.
But to answer the question,
I do believe that the child was found.
Oh, good.
I received a separate alert on my phone
that actually said the child was found.
And that's another thing.
You know, we're trying to listen to the FA Cup
with Southampton,
and I don't know if they beat Darby or not.
We were, you know, really riveted to that game,
listening on TuneIn,
and all of a sudden we get this emergency alert tone
with the same message on our phone saying,
tune to local media.
And again, you know,
local media isn't going to have this information.
Why don't you just give us the information
instead of sending us all these alerts
telling us to do something else to get the information?
Yeah, there's a lot of overlap of technologies
interrupting one another,
and then to just only get this sort of vague,
vague non-message.
It's just, you know,
I have a particular issue with technology
that is designed poorly.
You know, when you have something that's a great idea,
but then you just do something stupid,
such as a design of subway cars
where, you know, they have arrows pointing the wrong way
of the direction the car is moving,
and you're supposed to keep track of the subway station
that comes up next.
Little things like that.
Or, you know, announcements
that don't convey the information
or that tell the time wrong
or just are inane and stupid.
There's all kinds of ways you can make things better.
We see this.
When we travel around the world,
we see things that work.
We were in the London Underground,
and you see, you know, basic information
such as what the next stop is.
And it's, you know,
it's displayed in lettering that's clear,
that doesn't flicker,
that's, you know, consistent.
And then we come back here,
and we see all kinds of things
that just don't make any sense.
It could be done so much better.
And, you know, I like to think
there are people out there
that are thinking of better ways to do things,
but sometimes you have to kind of ask people,
you know, what do you want?
And I get the feeling that's not happening enough.
Yeah, I feel like we're sorely in need
of some technological ergonomics
that haven't quite bubbled to the surface
in these new schemes,
especially here at home.
We see great examples of good implementations of it,
especially in, like, transit and stuff
when we're in other cities.
But I guess it's that we want it for our home
and to see it in places that matter to us every day
and the people we care about back home.
We know we can do it,
but it just seems like it gets to be
like a back burner thing.
It doesn't ever really become the priority.
We've been in a number of cities
since we were here in the studio last,
and London and Krakow, Warsaw,
and every city seems to have it down
as far as, let's say you're on a bus.
You always know what stop is coming up
because it's displayed.
You don't need to know the language.
And, you know, in a city like New York,
we should have things like that.
We should be able to have a display
that tells you what's coming up next
or how long it's going to be
before a bus or a train is going to show up,
and it's actually based in reality.
We don't seem to have that.
I don't know why it's so difficult for us.
Yeah, building off two points on the design issue,
you know, number one,
these amber alerts, when they come up,
if they're not giving the information,
they're telling you to tune in somewhere else,
it's actually really dangerous,
especially if you're driving
and you want to get the information,
and all of a sudden you're opening up
a web browser on your phone.
Really idiotic, and I don't know why.
I would love to know why it changed
from actually displaying the information
that was relevant at that particular moment
to not displaying that information
and telling you to tune in somewhere else.
But then building off your separate point,
which was the London Underground point,
one thing that I miss, having lived in London
and now living in New York again,
were two different lanes to enter and exit the subway.
You know, I actually travel on the subway a lot now
with my dogs back and forth to work,
two dogs, and take them on the subway.
I'm probably not really supposed to do it.
Two different lanes to enter the subway.
I'm trying to picture what that is.
So there's an entrance and an exit.
Okay, you are.
There aren't people going in and out
of the same turnstile at the same moment,
which like we have in New York.
Oh, I see.
Yes, they have a green light and a red light.
Exactly.
So you don't have this traffic jam problem
that I have to suffer through every single day.
And when you're trying to get two dogs
through a turnstile at rush hour in the morning...
Wait, wait, wait.
Why are you taking two dogs on the subway?
Well, sometimes if it's raining
or if it's extraordinarily cold out
and I don't feel like walking,
I just take my dogs on the subway.
First of all, you're not supposed to do that.
But I think you should, you know,
because every city we were in,
people take their dogs on the train
and the dogs behave themselves.
I agree.
But for some reason,
the trains are a whole lot quieter.
I don't get that either.
Why are their trains so much quieter than our trains?
Well, especially in London.
They're still trains.
They're still tracks.
What's the difference?
Oh, you mean the actual noise from the trains?
I thought you meant the chatter in the cars.
Dogs don't like that.
Dogs don't like loud trains like we have in this city.
That's true.
Jimmy does bark at the trains when they arrive,
but once he's on board, he's pretty calm.
He barks at buses and skateboarders, too.
He does.
That's true.
That's right.
I think they're legal in New York
if they fit in a bag.
That's true.
However, I do have to say,
I have never...
I should knock on wood.
I have never had a problem
bringing the dogs into the subway.
In fact, I'll often stand right where the conductors line up
with the car there,
and I just wave at them.
They wave at me.
We get on the train, and there you go.
I've never really had a problem.
And I agree with this.
I think this is a great form of civil disobedience in New York,
taking your dog on the train.
I want to see more people do it.
I'm not quite sure that's what I had in mind.
I would just like to see things improve a little bit
where technology makes more sense
and where things are just easier to use.
But I know, Kyle, when we were traveling,
we had some issues as well.
It wasn't all perfect.
Sorry, I'm just laughing.
I know in Germany you can buy a ticket for your dog.
That's true.
Many cities.
And I think in England, too,
there are dog tickets.
Just pointing that out.
But yeah, it should be so comprehensive
that it's not a problem.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, anyway, so, yeah, things were not perfect for us
everywhere we went.
Sometimes things didn't work.
No, no.
When I was translating all of the messages on that machine,
one of the things I was noticing was dog ticket.
No, that's not what we need.
But we were able to do that.
We were on a train that only spoke Polish and German.
It was really cool.
And we were able to buy a ticket on that train somehow.
We were going through the screen menu to buy the ticket
with like a translating app
so we could just basically watch all the options
get translated in real time.
That was pretty cool, clever use of that
so that when we were checked,
we had the right zones
and could get to where we needed to go precisely
and not at a really high cost.
But, yeah, everything had a certain level of resistance,
a little bit of trouble, a little difficulty.
That's part of, I think, the general thing
that we like to talk about with adjusting
and learning new systems when you're abroad.
If you make a game of it,
I think you tend to build your skills
in learning new systems
and then being able to compare that stuff.
Comparing, I think that's the key.
When you go places and you see how other people do it,
instead of resisting, take notes
and come back with those notes
and you'll find that you can apply things.
Here's a great example.
I don't know if people have noticed this.
Inside the New York City subway,
there's a unique system at play
that only exists in one other part of the world.
And we heard about this, didn't believe it,
saw some videos of it on YouTube.
But in Japan, there are train conductors
and train engineers,
and you'll notice for some reason,
they're pointing at everything
when they're moving the trains.
It's like they're giving a tour to somebody.
They keep pointing at things.
And you wonder, what in God's name are they up to?
Well, it turns out that is a particular way
of being able to pay attention to a task
by pointing at an object as it appears,
by expecting an object to be there,
and by recognizing it.
It's a particular type of training
that they have in Japan.
And at one point, one of the heads
of the transit authority here in New York
went to Japan, saw this, was so impressed by it
that he mandated that New York City transit employees,
at least on the subway, do this
whenever they pull into a station.
So if you watch a train go into a station
and you see the conductor who is in the middle,
you will see every time he or she
will point their finger
when the train arrives in the station,
and they'll be pointing it at this little checked box
that's in every station in the middle of the platform.
When the train pulls in, they point.
It's a way of being alert, of kind of checking in.
And it's really, it's an example
of how you can take something from another place,
another culture, apply it, and see things improve.
When you told me about this,
when you first learned about it,
I thought you were just completely lying to me
and that it's one of your practical jokes,
something else is going to happen entirely.
But it is amazing to see this,
and it's like clockwork.
I mean, some stations, however,
if they have trains that have eight cars and 10 cars,
there's two of those checkered boxes
near the middle of the station.
No, there should be only one,
because if a train is,
you'll see a little rectangular sign
that says eight and 10
telling the driver where to stop,
depending on how many cars he has.
But the middle of the train
should always be in the same place,
so there should only be one of those.
I've seen stations where there's actually two.
Okay.
Yeah, I think at Times Square,
it might be the ACE,
might have two boxes in there.
We'll check it after the show outs.
Yeah, let's do it.
Let's validate this.
Yes.
We'll settle this once and for all.
Call me a liar on the air.
Yeah, okay, go ahead, go ahead.
I've called you worse.
Uh-huh, I know that.
But it really is amazing, though.
And, you know, practically,
I mean, let's say,
this is something really good to know,
this little bit of trivia,
because let's say you're feeling somewhat unsafe
and you're waiting for the train
at two o'clock in the morning.
You might want to be right underneath
that particular box
that has the checkered pattern on it,
because you know that's right
where the conductor is going to be
when he pulls up.
Then you wait in the off-hour waiting area
with the orange that they have
on every stop as well,
which should encompass
that particular little plaid thing.
Yes, that's right, yeah.
Anyway, that's one example.
There are so many other things
that you notice when you travel,
and you should bring it back.
There's always ways of improving
not only technology but our everyday life,
you know, how people treat each other,
how people get through the day.
And, you know, I think this is one of many examples
when you go away for a few weeks.
Now, Mitch, you're constantly on the road.
In fact, it's rare that we see you here.
Not that this is your home,
but it's close.
Where is your home anyway?
Do you even know?
Where the heart is?
I travel a lot.
I do have an apartment in San Francisco,
so I guess I can say I live there.
I also have an apartment in Berlin now.
Okay, good.
So I guess I can say I live there, too.
So just accumulate apartments as you travel.
If I could afford it, maybe I'd have more,
but my apartments are actually quite inexpensive,
so I can afford the two.
And, yeah, I'm traveling most of the time, though.
I've been in San Francisco in 2018 only six weeks
and in Berlin about two months.
Okay, and we saw you at the
Chaos Communication Congress in Berlin,
in Leipzig.
In Leipzig, yeah.
And, yeah, so how did this year's compare
as far as you're concerned?
Well, my perspective is rather limited.
I organized the rather large now hardware hacking area,
and that was pretty much home for five days,
setting up and then cleaning up
surrounding the conference,
and that was amazing.
We had well over 2,000 people
who soldered there during the conference,
and most of those people had never done it before,
including a whole group of four- to six-year-olds.
I saw that.
I walked by, and I saw Mitch teaching
a bunch of really tiny kids how to solder.
Yeah, it's really adorable
when these little kids are holding soldering irons
and making, these kids were all making
these little blinky light things that I designed
so people could learn to solder.
And, yeah, and everyone gets to play with it afterwards.
So, yeah, from my perspective,
this was the best one ever,
and they seem to get better every year,
even though some people miss the earlier days
when there were only, that's a weird word,
only 2,000 people at these Congress events.
I actually am one of those people that missed that
because kind of like Hope,
we're at a certain size.
When you get much bigger than that,
and we're at like 18,000 now,
it's still amazing.
It's still an awesome event,
but it's not the same event.
It's lost something along the way.
Yeah, it loses some things, and it gains some things.
I mean, I remember the discussions around that
when it was getting too crowded
for the venue that started it.
Well, when I first went with 2,000 people in Berlin,
and then it outgrew that place,
and we're wondering, well, should we grow?
Should we stay the same?
What do we lose?
What do we gain?
But there are so many people who can benefit
from going to these events,
and we didn't want to actually just limit it
to just the people who'd already gone
and make it somewhat elitist.
I think the growth is actually,
they're growing into the spaces
that were quite a bit larger
than the second spot in Hamburg.
And so, yeah, once you increase your size,
of course, there's growing room and getting into that,
and particularly the art and design
I think was really beautiful.
There was all kinds of different themes
in different areas,
and they're definitely filling out the space
that they're currently running the event in.
There was a particular place that had a No Borders bar,
which was beautiful.
It looked like a checkpoint,
and they had a little hut
and several little gates and stuff like that
just to make it feel like it's
from some kind of abandoned border entry point.
Little artistic things like that I think took a while
as these kinds of events grow
to actually take advantage of.
Once you get a new and larger space,
you're always thinking about
how can people enjoy it more?
How can you get more hacking going on
in any one square meter?
But it's really brilliant to see that evolve slowly
and see the kind of expression that goes on
with that art and other production.
The Chaos Camp takes place every year,
same dates, December 27th, 28th, 29th, and 30th,
and currently it's in Leipzig.
It was in Hamburg before that.
I don't know if they can go back to Hamburg
because they've grown bigger
than the massive space they had there.
That space is being reconstructed,
but I don't know when they're finished
if it's going to be big enough.
I do know also they're having a camp this summer.
Is that right, Mitch?
Yeah.
It'll be August 19th to 25th during that week,
and probably Thursday to Sunday in there.
It happens every four years,
and those are amazing.
As great as the annual congress is,
the camps are just over the top, wonderful.
It used to be the camps were bigger,
but I think now the congress is bigger,
and you can't fit that many people outside anymore.
Right.
Yeah, the camp, the discussion after the last one,
it had 5,000 last time.
The discussion was maybe to make it 7,000
because that might fit,
but I'm not sure what was decided.
That's a lot of people,
but everyone's there.
Unlike when it's a big event in a city
where people can come and go,
there's no barbed wire to keep anyone in or anything,
but once you're there,
there's not really anywhere to go really,
so everyone's just there.
They're there for the duration,
and everyone adds their life to it in this place
way away from the day-to-day,
which makes it quite magical.
We had a lot of fun, though.
When we were in Leipzig,
we were just wandering around.
One thing, though, we took the tram into town.
They keep the trams running around the clock,
but we discovered a slight flaw in the system
because we took the tram into town
to get food away from the venue,
which we do no matter where we go.
Then we discovered while the trams were running
and taking people into town all night long,
getting back seemed impossible.
In fact, it was impossible
because nobody knew how to do it.
We were asking tram drivers.
In fact, we saw the trams arrive from the camp
and let all these people out,
and apparently we were some of the few people
that at midnight wanted to go back.
We were asking the drivers,
how do we get back?
They had no idea
because they were taking their tram into the garage.
Nobody could tell us how to actually...
Obviously, they had to go back there at some point
to pick up more people,
but not the ones that we were seeing.
We just eventually had to give up
and not go back that night,
which was kind of sad.
There's a special deal with the CCC
because there's 17,000 people invading their town
that the transit system would go all night
throughout the duration of the Congress.
That's really cool,
but evidently they didn't communicate that too well
to all of the late-night drivers.
It was one disappointing thing.
I think it was Saturday night.
If you left, there was this blackout period
that was not either well-publicized
or not anticipated at all,
but I'm sure someone would say
that we should have looked at some wiki or something.
It was possible there was a way to get there,
but we didn't know what it was
and we couldn't find any documentation about it.
That's what happens on occasions like this.
I had something similar happen to me with trams.
I can't believe it was about 20 years ago in Prague.
I had taken the subway, the metro,
down towards the Charles Bridge,
and then the metro shut off at midnight
and I had to take trams back,
but getting back to where I was staying
in this kind of off-the-beaten-path,
cheap area of Prague 20 years ago
was just next to impossible.
Nobody knew how to do it,
like literally nobody.
Same thing, tram drivers.
So I just started walking
because I knew it was this way and up a hill.
It started to get really sketchy,
and I felt unsafe.
So I went back,
and something kind of incredible happened to me.
As I was walking back,
I went down this hill
and I saw this gigantic American flag.
It sounds like this jingoistic story now,
but it wound up being the American Embassy,
and I knocked on the door of the American Embassy.
You knocked on the door of the American Embassy?
Really? You get lost in Prague
and you go to the American Embassy?
I went to the American Embassy.
Wow.
It happened to be the 4th of July,
that same night.
Did you just realize that then?
No, I knew it was the 4th of July,
and I said, well, there's the American Embassy.
Why don't I knock on the door?
So I knocked on the door.
It was actually a little buzzer.
It was an intercom.
Was there a fife and drum in the room?
I don't know.
Keep going.
Somebody basically said,
yes, can I help you,
with a Southern American accent.
And I said, yeah, I'm an American.
I'm thoroughly lost in Prague.
And then this guy tells me,
well, he just got there two weeks ago.
He's with the Marines.
And I said, well, come on.
I'm an American. I'm lost.
There's got to be somebody over there
who knows how I can get back.
And finally, he opened up the door,
and these Marines came over to me,
and they said, you know,
we don't know how the hell to get up there.
But it's the 4th of July.
We're in here. We're partying.
We're having a few drinks,
and we're going to go out afterwards.
Why don't you just come out with us?
I stayed out with these Marines,
partying until 7 in the morning
when the train reopened,
and I took the subway back.
Did they ask you to show any ID?
I mean, you could have been from...
I could have been, yeah, exactly.
You could have been French or something.
This was 19...
There's all kinds of possibilities.
Yes, this is true.
I could have been Canadian.
That's true.
This is 1998 when people, you know,
trusted each other.
But it was pretty amazing,
and it totally changed my conception of Marines
at that point.
That was my first real experience
in hanging out with U.S. Marines,
and it was in Prague and on the 4th of July.
And because of the tram situation,
I had this great experience
that I can now talk about on the radio.
It's not about Marines.
I mean, yeah, we can all hang out with Marines
and have a great time.
Of course, it's about trams.
But it's about finding your own way, you know,
without having to go to your embassy.
You know, for God's sake,
you were just lost in a city one night.
All you had to do was keep walking.
You would have made it.
You really would have.
But I wouldn't have had this story.
I had such a great time.
It was so much more fun
than wandering around aimlessly
in sketchy areas of Prague 20 years ago.
So with regard to the camps,
it is certainly a totally different mode.
You have all this stuff and space
and people bringing, basically,
a bit of their lives, as Mitch said.
And that, in and of itself, is great
because you can just survive together.
And it is much, much smaller
by comparison to the Congress events.
And I would add that, like,
the size of it being with so many people
in the proximity and, like,
there are definite benefits and drawbacks
that, like, you're kind of experiencing
all at once.
And there's this incredible amount
of infrastructure and capacity
to host all these people
who want to hear interesting talks
and then, you know, congregate
and bump into one another.
But it is so big and so spread out.
You can see all the incredible projects
people have,
and people are quite busy while they're there
and different regions of the world
are represented
and different projects
you can get interested in.
But you're really out in this whole, like,
universe of different things going on.
It's very hard to bump into someone twice.
And it's very awkward, I think,
if you don't just open yourself up
to just maybe bumping into something interesting
and consuming yourself with that
for a little bit.
Without calling the Marines.
Well, exactly.
But there's just so much there
that you can't really see it all.
So, like, I found myself bumping into
a bunch of people picking at a PDP.
I think it was a PDP-8.
There were two of them at the Congress
in the same area as the hardware hacking area,
which itself was all arranged in a circle
and everything kind of went out from the center.
And, yeah, I just bumped into that stuff
and got interested in that.
And, you know, who knew that
that kind of equipment was, you know,
alongside all these other people
doing so much stuff.
Dance floors and all these kinds of sculptures.
And a lot of it was kind of arranged
with these dividers, kind of like big cubicles,
which I thought was kind of interesting.
Because you have so many different things
going on and so much stimulation,
it's kind of good to kind of separate
a little bit and have different areas and zones.
But it really is so massive
and such a confluence of activity
that it's hard to just grasp.
I think at one point both E and I
got a little, like, overwhelmed
and we just kind of had to calm down
with the stimulus because there's so many lights.
We ran screaming around for about half an hour.
That was us, wasn't it?
Yeah, we couldn't stop.
No, we were running in circles and we ran out.
A couple of toddlers that got too much sugar.
Yeah, yeah.
I think it was like a few two scooters
crossed us.
That's the other thing.
It was late at night.
It was after midnight.
And all these people, remember this, Mitch?
All these people going by
on all kinds of wheeled devices.
Scooters, bicycles, unicycles.
What are those things that burst into flame?
Hoverboards.
Hoverboards were everywhere.
I saw a kid riding a hoverboard sideways,
which I'd never seen before.
He was just sitting on it.
It's dim lighting.
There's a staircase, for God's sake.
You can go right off the edge.
But they're all just basically fine.
And it's an amazing thing to see.
But what I would really like to see
with these hacker events,
I'd like to see more of them in different places.
Now, we learned of some
that we hadn't heard about before.
There's a camp, I think, in Denmark or something?
All sorts of things we've never heard of.
Foreign hack, I think.
And we need to compile this information
and spread it around.
Because, yeah, the Germans have perfected it.
No question about that.
But there are so many other countries
that need to be doing things as well.
I want to see more things in Poland.
Hey, we went to the Krakow 2600 meeting.
We did.
That was awesome.
It was great.
It was way up in this old building
and a bunch of restaurants.
It took 45 minutes to find it.
Yeah, we had to make all kinds of,
send up flares and all this stuff just to find it.
But it was in kind of a VR cafe,
kind of an internet cafe.
But it was in the very top of the building.
Here's where we can maybe do a better job.
Addresses.
Numbers.
There's an infinite number of numbers.
So when you give a number of an address,
it doesn't have to encompass the entire block.
You can have every building have its own unique number.
And they don't do that in some cities.
They just have number three on a particular block.
And that encompasses about 50 different stores.
And that makes it very hard to find things.
I think it was an old factory
that had been repurposed and subdivided
into all these little businesses.
You can add numbers later.
There's all sorts of things you can do.
They have not quite got to that part of it yet,
which is why I think it was so hard to navigate.
But it was great to see that meeting
and to talk to people there
and to realize there's all kinds of meetings in the East.
In Russia, there's a lot of 2600 meetings.
And it's very inspirational.
It makes you want to do more here as well.
Yeah, and hearing about all that stuff,
we're trying to organize it.
I think we want to publish
and get more listings of these kinds of meetings
and check in with people.
That's another big thing is seeing who's out there,
seeing what they're doing
and letting them know we're listening.
And we want to share their activities
and the kind of community they're creating.
And I think you are definitely doing as much work
in the same spirit, Mitch,
with all of your travels and so on.
Tell us someplace you've been
that we don't know about,
that we've never been to,
a hacker event or a hacker space
or a meeting or something in a country
that maybe we haven't been talking about a whole lot.
I've been to a couple places over the last year
that I've never been before.
Poland is one of them.
And I did a small tour of a bunch of cities in Poland
and visited hacker spaces in all of them.
And there's some really cool communities in Poland.
And in times like this,
community of like-minded people is very important.
And also I went to Israel for the first time,
hanging out in a hacker space in Tel Aviv.
I was a hacker in residence there for a month.
And it's a place called TAMI,
T-A-M-I, Tel Aviv Makers International.
And a fantastic community there.
It's just really wonderful to be there
and surrounded by who knows what's going on
in the rest of Israel.
But here's a community of people who support each other
and teach and learn like in any other hacker space.
And also this year I went to,
well, a month ago I was in Dubai,
which is a place I was quite apprehensive of going.
What's the hacker community like there?
There isn't one.
Okay, all right.
But perhaps this is the beginning of starting one.
I don't know.
You know, Dubai is...
There are definitely hackers there.
There's no question about that.
Yeah, not necessarily in my definition of the word.
Well, they exist, whether they are able to exist openly.
But there are people with hacker mindsets everywhere.
Oh, absolutely.
There are humans everywhere.
And Dubai is not a place where you walk around
and you're feeling oppressed.
It's a place where we read and hear about oppression there.
Like a friend of a friend talked about their friend
visiting to me before I went
and they were arrested for kissing someone in a taxicab.
And that's not the kind of story
that makes me feel warm and fuzzy about going to Dubai.
But evidently, it's a little bit different there.
Well, it's certainly different there than what I imagine,
you know, a theocratic state
where people get arrested for kissing
and where it's illegal to be gay,
which is kind of illegal to be me.
So, you know, I'd been to Israel
and there's a stamp in my passport from Israel.
What's that going to be like at the border?
It turned out that none of this mattered at all.
If I went around with a placard yelling it,
maybe it would have mattered.
But it seems like the authorities,
as long as they can turn a blind eye, they will.
That's sort of the impression I get.
And everyone, regardless of what they were wearing,
the traditional garb or modern,
was just warm and friendly and open.
And I was with a conference called Hack in the Box.
Oh, yeah, I remember that.
And I've been to their conferences in Amsterdam
pretty much all of them over the last 10 years.
Malaysia, too.
Have you been to the one in Malaysia?
I have not.
I think that's where it started,
but they don't do it there anymore.
And there was one in Beijing,
and I went to that one before my hacker trip to China.
So was there ever a place that you went to
either to visit hacker spaces
or teach people how to solder
that you felt trepidation,
that you thought maybe this isn't such a good idea
and maybe you were surprised?
Well, there's been very few places I've been in the world
where I just didn't like being there.
I was in Egypt in 2011,
just a few months after Mubarak was booted,
and that was a fascinating place to be.
The culture was, I think, at the peak of optimism
for, you know, decades after,
and that was a truly oppressive place,
in part paid for by our tax money.
But that's another story.
So being there, the hacker community there
was just ready to explode in wonderful ways,
and me and a couple other people going there
to help people,
bringing donations from hacker spaces from the U.S.
and, you know, just greetings from the rest of the world,
and people were welcoming in amazing ways.
We had these hacker space meetups
where 100 people would show up,
and soon after we left,
there were several hacker spaces throughout Egypt,
and it would be great.
I haven't been there since then.
It would be great to visit again and see what's going on.
But I was just hanging out yesterday
with one of the people who started Cairo Hacker Space.
He's now living in New York City,
and he was telling me a bunch of stories
about what's happening.
It seems like it's really thriving there.
The outlying culture in Egypt now
is, like the rest of the world, hurting badly.
That started happening much earlier
than the rest of the world.
But, yeah, it was one of the few places I've ever been
where I felt it was actually dangerous to be
because while I was there,
the military leadership started getting nervous
that people had kicked out the one guy,
but they didn't kick out everybody else,
the everybody else being the military leadership,
and they got people quite easily
by manipulating people through their religious hatreds,
which unfortunately still exists there,
into shooting each other in the streets
while I was there.
And, you know, it's interesting to read about.
It's interesting to see,
but it doesn't feel good.
Yeah, and so, so, so important to go
and actually be with people
and keep those communication channels open.
And I think hacking and technology
and the spirit that we are so fond of
and we know is everywhere
is a big part of having discussions
and protecting, I think,
communities around the world
so that we know what's going on in these places
and that we can, you know, share
and keep that spirit alive.
Because, yeah, I think in times like these
we need to have relatedness more than ever.
And this is just one of the ways, yeah,
talking about different events, places,
and sharing that common spirit
and the warmness,
because that's something we definitely notice
as different or as awkward
or maybe we don't have understandings
or politically where we're from
maybe shouldn't allow us to be able to communicate.
But I think it's so, so true
that people do like to laugh and share
and that human friendliness
is actually the norm
and all too common in what we most enjoy in travel.
Yeah, so it is amazing.
I do travel all over the world
and I'm traveling most of the time
and everywhere I go I can always go to
a local hackerspace and feel welcomed.
And, you know, just last night I'm at Hack Manhattan
and most people there had never heard of me
but I can walk in
and just like all these other people who came in
who'd never been there before
and everyone's welcomed
and we can talk about anything
and we were all there till midnight
just having a great time
talking about whatever came up
and this is true anywhere in the world
and whatever the external politics are
of course we can talk about that as well
and even have disagreements
and respect each other
imagine that
and have a great time
and support each other
and just having like what
one of the things I do
as well as many other people going around the world
sharing what works and what doesn't
at all these different communities
and it's a great way for people to
make their communities stronger and nicer.
I'm curious about one thing
we're talking about traveling all over the world
by the way our phone number is
212-209-2877
if people want to join the conversation
traveling all continents pretty much
I don't think you've been to Antarctica yet
not yet
okay
but have you ever been to a part of this country
that is decidedly different
as far as backgrounds
say you know Trump country
have you been there
at a hackerspace
have you talked to people
you talked about disagreeing
and being able to respect people
is it possible in that kind of environment?
Oh yeah
you know just like Alex is talking about
he's hanging out with Marines
we have preconceptions about
all these different people
deep down we're all human
and if we treat people with respect
people tend to be respectful in return
and this is something I learned long ago
as a teenager
while driving around the U.S.
in a Volkswagen van
you know little hippie that I was
and you know I saw Easy Rider
I know what the South is like right
at least the Hollywood presentation of it
and that's partly true
but it's way wrong and false
in many other ways
I found if I go there
expecting people to be mean to me
that's what I get
and I had all sorts of weird bumper stickers
on the back of my VW van
but if I'm friendly to people
always people are friendly to me in return
and at hackerspaces
I mean there's so many things to talk about
that aren't contentious political things
and you can start with that
and then have a basis for connection
which we all have
and then you can talk about
even the guy in the White House
and it's possible to talk about things
in a way that it's not so bad
Alright well that takes guts
and I think it's something we need more of
Let's take a phone call
Good evening you're on Off The Hook
Yeah hi I just want to make a comment
about something you were talking about earlier
Go ahead
Yeah a couple things
First of all in reference to the dogs on the train
the gentleman that was talking about
bringing dogs on the train
it's not allowed on the train
and for very good reason
not everybody likes dogs
you know a lot of dog owners to me
they're very selfish
they think everybody likes dogs
and everybody wants their dog
sniffing them
not everybody likes dogs
you know and
Do you like dogs sir?
I don't dislike dogs
my mom has a dog
and you know there's always a dog there
but everybody doesn't like dogs
and it's not fair to impose your dog
on everybody else
if you go on YouTube
you would see a lot of videos
on the
with subways
where in fact there's one there right now
where this dog attacked this lady
somebody brought a dog on the train
and it bit this woman on the train
this is actually a recent story
but that's the thing about the dogs
but the other thing though
is as far as
the differences between the
subways in England
and European countries
versus the New York subways
one thing is though
in New York
we pay a lot less than they do
I think that's part of it
if you New York subway
versus say the British subway system
I think New York is like
decades behind
if not even a century behind
but I think we pay
in fact I don't even think
we do pay a lot less than they do
and I mean significantly
probably 25% on the dollar
versus what they do
so that could be one of the reasons
why it's
you know our subway system
is not as nice as theirs
I'm quite sure if we were to start
upgrading this subway system
to rival the subway system
they have there
the fares are going to jump
and people probably
are not going to want to pay it
so that's one thing to keep in mind
I just wanted to make that comment
alright thanks
thanks for calling
take care
you know I don't know
about the fares
they are more expensive in London
but I don't know
if that carries over
from all cities
that are more advanced
I think it's basically
it's unique to every country
regarding dogs though
Alex you're the one
that brings your dogs
onto the subway
you know there are people
I don't like on the train
and you know I recognize
they have the right to be there
I think you know
some dogs know how to behave
on trains
and I've noticed this in Europe
they all behave themselves
really well
even though the dog is there
they just lie down
they're trained
and if you don't train
your dog properly
you're going to get incidents
obviously
but I don't think
to malign the entire species
is really the right thing to do
I mean I agree with that entirely
and I would say
the vast majority of people
that come into contact
with my dogs on a train
are made happier
by the presence of these
particular dogs
rather than Satter
and they probably
are much more well behaved
than most of the
strap hangers
that we have in the city
but you know
this sort of besides the point
I'm still going to engage
in the civil disobedience
on a near daily basis
of bringing my dogs
on the train
you bring two dogs
on the train
absolutely
that's amazing
a Beagle and a Sheltie
but to go back
to his comment though
about paying less
for our trains
I mean this is something
really unique to New York
and the subway system
has always been known
to be the great equalizer
so unlike London
where you're charged
by distance
in New York
you could stay in the train
all day
and it's the same
exact fare
so you can go into
the bowels of Queens
if you wanted to
or take it two stops
and it's the same exact fare
whereas in London
that two stop trip
would be much
cheaper than
well if you get off the train
if you stay on the train
you can stay on
until they stop
which is another thing
they stop
our trains don't stop
that's true
and the reason for that
is because you
tap going out
and they have
a tapping system too
which I'm looking forward to
in New York
when we have a system
where you actually
the fare is calculated
based on
how often you use
your card that day
so you pay the less
less amount
you say
you know a day pass
or you know
for one fare
it calculates it
for you
we'll have a system
like that
hopefully it won't be
based on distance
no and that's what
I mean to say
is that you know
the system by design
has been very
you know equalizing
it's been an egalitarian system
and I agree
I don't want that
to change at all
alright second line
of phone call
good evening
Mike can you
speak up a little bit
you seem to have
something going on
with your phone there
off screen
is this better
yeah that's better
go ahead
ok good
alright
first one comment
about the fares
you know the
personal call before
obviously
doesn't travel much
out of London
because everywhere
else in Europe
the fares are
between one
one and a half euro
I'm talking about
Spain
France has got
an even better deal
if you go to Paris
you can buy
ten rides
yeah that's right
Eastern Europe
is insanely cheap
yeah so
I would say
that New York
is rather on the high end
rather than the low end
but
specifically again
I don't want to
hijack the conversation
because it took
a very nice turn
and I don't want
to put a
depth on that
but
that person
had a distinct
law enforcement
accent
and without being
too paranoid
a law enforcement
accent
wow
without being
too paranoid
you know
I just wanted to
say specifically
to Mitch
that you know
while we all
travel with an
open mind
and we hope
for a better world
you know
be careful
about divulging
your living
arrangements
so widely
because a lot
of people
listen
and they're
not all friendly
you know
for example
in New York
the law says
that if you have
an open
mind
and you
don't
want to
divulge
your
living
arrangements
you
don't
want to
divulge
your
living
arrangements
you
don't
want to
divulge
your
living
arrangements
you
don't
want to
divulge
your
living
arrangements
you
don't
want to
divulge
your
living
arrangements
you
don't
want to
divulge
your
living
arrangements
you
don't
want to
divulge
your
living
arrangements
you
don't
want to
divulge
your
living
arrangements
you
don't
want to
divulge
your
living
arrangements
you
don't
want to
divulge
your
living
arrangements
you
don't
want to
divulge
your
living
arrangements
you
don't
want to
divulge
your
living
arrangements
no
The place was packed and met two Marines who were on leave.
They had both just taken LSD and they were tripping.
And I couldn't believe that.
And they said that they were new to New York.
And I said, well, you might.
They said they were just going to get on a train
and go somewhere and see what was happening
while they were tripping.
Well, they didn't need to go on a train.
They could have just stood still and all kinds of things.
Well, the park was filled at that time.
You know, it was early.
But, you know, Washington Square, that gets,
you know, it gets empty as the night goes on.
Maybe 42nd Street is hopping more throughout the night
than Washington Square Park.
Well, 42nd Street and LSD, I would not recommend.
No, no, I know.
But, well, anyway, that was it.
OK.
Thanks for those memories.
That's, wow.
OK, we're definitely.
What is the best street in New York for LSD?
Well, I mean, if you're going to walk around.
Not a two-way street, Kyle.
Basically, I would recommend, if you're really asking,
lower Manhattan, westbound, because you
don't have the threat of the sun coming up.
And, you know, if you don't have a bike lane,
that just confuses things.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
I can go on, but we're almost out of time.
Let's take another phone call.
Good evening, you're.
I'm sorry, I didn't press the button hard enough.
And that one, I pressed too hard.
OK, good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Go ahead.
Speak up.
Hi.
I like what you just said about when you go to places,
you know, you get what you put out.
I like that.
And just, I don't know, at the risk of being a little personal,
how does your guest's financial list travel around the world?
And I'll pick my answer for you.
OK, that's a very good question.
Yeah, so.
Reveal your secrets.
My secrets.
So, you know, let me try to be succinct.
But I created a situation where I can make
a living doing what I love.
And when you do something along those lines,
other people seem to like it.
So I get paid to give talks and workshops all over the world.
Quite often, there's an organization, a conference,
that will pay for my travel expenses.
And sometimes they'll even pay me for the talk or the workshop.
And while I'm there, then I have the opportunity
to be in a certain place.
And then I can visit places that have no budget
and do stuff for free.
And overall, every year, I don't make any money whatsoever
from doing all the travel and the talks and the workshops
that I do.
But I don't lose money.
So basically, I get to travel all over the world for free
and meet all these amazing people
and do all these amazing things, have
all these amazing experiences.
And it's almost as if I'm super wealthy.
And I live as if I am.
But Mitch, I bet you travel like a hacker.
Yeah, I do.
Yeah, there's probably things that.
What does that mean?
Well, I don't know.
The thing I'm hearing is that, yeah, it's impossible.
How would you do this?
But I bet there's tips and tricks and tools and ways
to do it that our listeners probably aren't imagining.
When they think of travel, it's got
to be one or the other type of logistical situation.
And it's not like the kind of travel
you might think of where you're going
to take a family vacation or something so formal.
And there's so many cool things with technology
that have made it easier.
Just the ability to find something
we talk about all the time, the best deal,
with tickets and flights.
And of course, trains are right in there
as far as your transportation goes.
Or taking a mode of transportation
that's going to be doubling as accommodations.
That's a trick we love.
We made great use of that.
And then also, the types of places you go.
Oftentimes, the dollar's pretty strong there.
And you can save even more with just the types of places
you go.
And the things you're not taking advantage
of being a traditional, say, tourist.
So that, I think, is worth mentioning.
Yeah, and also being part of the hacker scene.
If I go to a conference, quite often they'll
put me up in a hotel.
And like in Dubai, the hotel was over the top.
I mean, it's beyond five stars.
But that's not the norm for me.
Normally, I prefer staying with people
who have a spare couch or a spare room is luxury.
And then I get to get the perspective of these people's
hometown from their geeky, unique perspective.
And it's really wonderful to be in a place,
not just to see it and gawk at it,
but to go there and be a part of it.
I smell a book deal out of this for you, Mitch.
Definitely that can finance further travel
around the world.
Let's work on that.
Let's get that together by next week.
Great, we'll do lunch.
All right, perfect.
Yeah, well, you know, also, Kyle and I
have been traveling for about five weeks now.
We're not wealthy.
We're not spending a lot of money.
We're staying in places that literally cost $30 a night
in Krakow.
That's what it cost.
And it was a nice place, too.
It was really nice, $30 a night.
Or you figure out a way to travel.
We took an airline called Wow, literally.
And it cost $100 to get from Europe to Iceland.
It was scary, yes, no question about it.
But it worked.
You have to think of things that kind of defy the odds,
the system.
Think like a hacker.
And you can always get from one place to another.
Yeah, expensive telephone data plans
are sort of ridiculous when you think about how much Wi-Fi there
is all around the world, which is
a kind of underrated technology.
But when you're on the road, you're
always on the lookout for a way to get online or do something
without having to pay an arm and a leg.
And that's stuff we've definitely
talked about in the past.
And I encourage anybody out there thinking of traveling
or that is inspired to check out other places
and see what kind of tech they have
or what kind of cool communities are out there.
Use as many of the different things we've talked about.
And maybe you'll come up with your own techniques
for making that kind of lifestyle and those trips
affordable.
Yeah, I think part of what we always hear as hackers
is that certain things are impossible.
It's impossible to put out a magazine.
It's impossible to do a radio show.
It's impossible to do a conference in the middle
of New York City.
And it's impossible to go from one place to another for cheap.
Well, all of that is possible if you think like a hacker,
if you keep investigating, keep searching for answers,
keep trying different things, and keep
sharing the information.
Because that is what hackers do.
I want to thank people for taking part
in the conversation.
Mitch Altman, thank you so much for everything you do
and for inspiring us.
And we look forward to hearing your adventures in the future.
You can write to us, oth at 2600.com.
We'd love to hear from you.
And we will be back again next week, same time, same station.
Stay tuned for our exploration next.
Good night.