[00:00.000 --> 00:01.120]  On the air.
[00:01.300 --> 00:05.480]  To become a BAI buddy, just go to wbai.org, sign up.
[00:05.700 --> 00:12.620]  Or if you prefer to sign up through the phone, you may call our call center at 516-620-3602.
[00:12.780 --> 00:21.180]  Once you join, you'll receive a BAI buddy card that allows you to take advantages of member benefits and special opportunities both on and off air.
[00:21.360 --> 00:22.820]  Plus, a tote bag.
[00:22.980 --> 00:23.480]  Questions?
[00:23.780 --> 00:26.140]  Just email buddy at wbai.org.
[00:26.340 --> 00:29.520]  And remember, your support helps keep us on the air.
[00:32.790 --> 00:36.410]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:36.610 --> 00:37.570]  The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:37.710 --> 00:39.730]  Time, once again, for Off the Hook.
[00:45.000 --> 00:49.480]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:50.440 --> 00:54.960]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:55.620 --> 00:57.800]  We couldn't get much worse.
[00:57.800 --> 01:03.230]  Bon dilly bon for the best, expect the worst.
[01:03.930 --> 01:05.750]  I hope that's understood.
[01:06.110 --> 01:06.730]  Bon dilly bon!
[02:27.810 --> 02:30.770]  And a very good evening to our program is Off the Hook.
[02:31.050 --> 02:34.270]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Rob T.
[02:34.370 --> 02:34.750]  Firefly.
[02:34.930 --> 02:35.430]  Good evening.
[02:35.430 --> 02:35.810]  Alex.
[02:36.290 --> 02:36.810]  It is I.
[02:36.970 --> 02:37.450]  And Kyle.
[02:37.810 --> 02:38.250]  Howdy.
[02:38.510 --> 02:44.290]  Well, we all made it through the State of the Union Address and the Super Bowl within two days of each other.
[02:44.870 --> 02:50.010]  A couple of snooze fests, I guess, or things that had you outraged, depending on your beliefs.
[02:51.670 --> 02:55.350]  And now we begin our winter fundraiser here at WBAI.
[02:55.350 --> 03:04.670]  If you just want to make the pledge and get it over with, then just give a call to 516-620-3602 and pledge whatever you can afford.
[03:04.690 --> 03:09.170]  Or you can go to give2wbai.org and pledge there.
[03:09.670 --> 03:11.050]  This is all very confusing to me.
[03:11.090 --> 03:13.990]  Don't we make enough money at the station from the commercials that we are?
[03:14.230 --> 03:15.690]  Well, you see, yeah, you are confused.
[03:16.090 --> 03:18.050]  We do not have commercials.
[03:18.530 --> 03:19.650]  We've told you this, Alex.
[03:19.650 --> 03:22.410]  We do not have commercials on this radio.
[03:22.550 --> 03:22.810]  Not yet.
[03:22.810 --> 03:24.350]  We're at 99.5 FM.
[03:24.530 --> 03:25.650]  We're in the middle of the FM dial.
[03:25.830 --> 03:26.730]  We're a full power station.
[03:26.870 --> 03:29.270]  We've reached four different states, and we're in the middle of New York City.
[03:29.410 --> 03:30.690]  We could have commercials.
[03:30.890 --> 03:31.750]  Yeah, we could.
[03:33.030 --> 03:45.210]  But if we had commercials, Alex, would I be able to stand up, as I'm doing now, and say in a rather serious tone of voice, because Verizon sucks.
[03:46.490 --> 03:47.570]  Microsoft sucks.
[03:48.470 --> 03:49.250]  Ford sucks.
[03:49.350 --> 03:49.930]  Trump sucks.
[03:50.130 --> 03:50.890]  It all sucks.
[03:51.010 --> 03:51.930]  You couldn't do that.
[03:52.150 --> 03:52.830]  You know why?
[03:52.890 --> 03:57.910]  Because those sponsors would not let you do that.
[03:58.030 --> 03:58.550]  They'd be upset.
[03:58.750 --> 04:02.070]  The listeners would be upset, because they'd be a different kind of listener.
[04:02.670 --> 04:04.570]  That's exactly what they would want you to think.
[04:05.290 --> 04:05.710]  Exactly.
[04:06.290 --> 04:11.970]  So we don't have commercials, and in place of commercials, we have listener sponsors.
[04:12.490 --> 04:21.430]  Those listener sponsors are the ones who call up to 516-620-3602, pledge whatever they can afford, and keep us on the air.
[04:21.530 --> 04:23.210]  It's been like that since 1960.
[04:23.810 --> 04:25.330]  I mean, I'm really amazed.
[04:25.590 --> 04:28.290]  You know, obviously I was being sarcastic about the commercials, but...
[04:28.290 --> 04:28.710]  Were you, though?
[04:28.830 --> 04:29.350]  Were you really?
[04:29.590 --> 04:36.630]  If you don't believe in miracles, this is a miracle that this station continues to exist without commercials in the middle of the spectrum.
[04:36.850 --> 04:37.770]  It is a miracle.
[04:38.090 --> 04:39.690]  It's, you know, and I don't use that term lightly.
[04:40.010 --> 04:44.810]  There aren't many stations that do that, and certainly not in the middle of the FM dial.
[04:45.030 --> 04:51.810]  Lots of times, radio stations are pushed over to the left-hand side of the dial, below 92, where you can't have commercials.
[04:52.010 --> 05:02.430]  We actually could, at this frequency, have commercials, but it would be wrong, and it would defy what this station has stood for, for more than 50 years, going on 60 years, actually.
[05:02.430 --> 05:05.390]  So, yeah, it's our listeners that we depend on.
[05:05.530 --> 05:09.730]  If we lose our listeners, we lose everything, and that's just how it is.
[05:10.170 --> 05:12.750]  Other radio stations, they just worry about the sponsors.
[05:12.910 --> 05:14.750]  If they lose the sponsors, they lose everything.
[05:15.150 --> 05:16.730]  Listeners, they don't really matter all that much.
[05:16.910 --> 05:23.530]  On the way in here, we were turning around the dial, especially the AM dial, because I like to explore AM radio.
[05:23.650 --> 05:26.070]  You know there's three Chinese radio stations in New York right now?
[05:26.550 --> 05:27.170]  On AM?
[05:27.330 --> 05:28.490]  Yeah, I think that's pretty cool.
[05:29.230 --> 05:35.090]  But there's also all these talk stations, and every single one of them is conservative, and that's in New York.
[05:35.270 --> 05:37.370]  That's in New York City, conservative radio.
[05:37.830 --> 05:42.470]  And there's no liberal AM radio stations that I can find in New York.
[05:42.870 --> 05:44.630]  Now, imagine what it's like in the rest of the country.
[05:45.550 --> 05:49.270]  Imagine turning on your radio, and that's all you hear.
[05:49.330 --> 05:50.670]  You just hear that perspective.
[05:52.090 --> 05:53.450]  Here in New York, it's different.
[05:53.590 --> 05:56.090]  Well, we have FM, and we're in the FM dial.
[05:56.410 --> 06:01.830]  You hear WBAI's perspective, alternatives, all kinds of different ways of looking at things and thinking about things.
[06:02.210 --> 06:04.030]  And you're not going to agree with everything, obviously.
[06:04.270 --> 06:12.210]  And some things will drive you crazy, but some things you will agree with, and some things you'll find that you didn't think about that in that particular way.
[06:12.230 --> 06:19.290]  You didn't really view that news story or that bit of technology, like what we talk about week after week.
[06:20.090 --> 06:21.650]  That is what radio should be.
[06:22.750 --> 06:28.430]  You know, not a melting pot, but a patchwork of voices, of perspectives.
[06:29.110 --> 06:33.650]  Unfortunately, in most of the country, it's one, one side.
[06:34.530 --> 06:39.230]  And I like to think the WBAI exists to counter that and just make people think for themselves.
[06:39.570 --> 06:42.510]  So if that matters to you, then please give a call.
[06:42.890 --> 06:47.470]  We're going to be offering some very interesting things tonight because we have a special guest who's going to be joining us.
[06:48.190 --> 06:54.750]  And I think the package we put together will be of particular interest to people who listen to this radio show.
[06:55.490 --> 06:58.330]  So if you want to wait until we announce that, that's fine.
[06:58.470 --> 07:00.610]  We'll be doing that in just a couple of minutes.
[07:00.750 --> 07:04.490]  But you guys have any updates on anything that's been going on?
[07:06.210 --> 07:15.130]  With respect to The Strand, again, I'll re-announce that our public hearing, and we would love WBAI supporters to show up and attend en masse.
[07:15.130 --> 07:16.290]  This is a bookstore in New York City.
[07:16.290 --> 07:17.350]  That's right, The Strand Bookstore.
[07:17.490 --> 07:20.710]  I'm sorry, I forget that we're also a podcast that goes all over the world.
[07:20.730 --> 07:22.350]  So we're live radio and podcast.
[07:22.770 --> 07:25.390]  And there are people in New York that have never been to The Strand.
[07:25.730 --> 07:26.730]  It can happen.
[07:26.910 --> 07:28.630]  Believe it or not, right?
[07:29.490 --> 07:32.730]  So we're still fighting with the Landmarks Preservation Commission.
[07:32.770 --> 07:36.330]  Our next public hearing is going to be February 19th.
[07:36.450 --> 07:39.990]  That's on the ninth floor of 1 Center Street at 9 a.m.
[07:39.990 --> 07:47.810]  I would try to get there a little bit early, but at the last hearing that we had, which was December 4th, there were a whole bunch of WBAI listeners.
[07:48.270 --> 08:02.310]  And when we started this fight, we thought that it was so important to get this news out on WBAI, because WBAI is not like The New York Times, where people read it, put it down, and then they forget about it.
[08:02.310 --> 08:13.570]  But WBAI is comprised of people that listen to the radio and are activists, active in their communities, actively fighting for what they believe in, and they showed up at the public hearing.
[08:13.710 --> 08:15.010]  And that was so incredibly important.
[08:15.010 --> 08:34.790]  And I think it's also really important to note that even though a New York Times story came out about our fight with Landmarks Preservation Commission, after we had Nancy Bass-Wyden, the owner of The Strand Bookstore, on, it was here on WBAI that we first broke the story about this proposed designation that could affect and destroy The Strand.
[08:35.010 --> 08:36.970]  So, we had it here first.
[08:37.070 --> 08:39.010]  That's really, I think, very, very big.
[08:39.230 --> 08:43.350]  We were here, talking about this before The New York Times, here on WBAI.
[08:43.530 --> 08:47.250]  Please support the station, 516-620-3602.
[08:47.410 --> 08:48.470]  And again, when is that hearing?
[08:48.690 --> 08:52.750]  That's February 19th at 1 Center Street, 9 a.m.
[08:52.850 --> 08:54.650]  in the morning, on the 9th floor.
[08:54.650 --> 08:55.130]  Okay.
[08:55.390 --> 08:58.590]  We'll be on again, hopefully, again before that hearing.
[08:58.590 --> 09:01.250]  So, we'll be able to go into more detail on that.
[09:01.410 --> 09:15.990]  But just for those who may have missed our earlier episode where we had Nancy Bass-Wyden, owner of The Strand, as a guest, if you go back into our archives on 2600.com slash off the hook, you'll want to look for the November 28th, 2018 episode.
[09:16.450 --> 09:23.710]  And you can catch up and also the episode or two after that where we update you on what happened then and keep it coming.
[09:24.650 --> 09:31.110]  Go to www.2600.com slash off the hook and listen to every single one of our radio programs going all the way back to 1988.
[09:31.570 --> 09:43.590]  If you have time on your hands or just want to listen to a time capsule and hear how things have changed over the years, both technologically, politically, socially, it's just, it's really fascinating.
[09:43.930 --> 09:58.150]  So, tonight, we're going to be focusing on one of the true gems of not only the Internet, but of civil liberties, and I'm referring to the Electronic Frontier Foundation, formed in 1990.
[09:58.610 --> 10:00.970]  I remember those days like they were yesterday.
[10:02.150 --> 10:14.010]  And it's an organization that has done so much good, continues to do so much good, and is such a vital resource on so many fronts, we won't be able to even scratch the surface in the hour ahead.
[10:14.010 --> 10:15.130]  But we're going to give it a try.
[10:15.130 --> 10:16.490]  We're going to try as hard as we can.
[10:16.850 --> 10:22.850]  Joining us on the phone is EFF's Tech Projects Director, Jeremy Galula.
[10:22.950 --> 10:23.750]  Jeremy, are you there?
[10:24.530 --> 10:25.050]  I'm here.
[10:25.150 --> 10:25.770]  Happy to be here.
[10:25.870 --> 10:26.430]  Thanks so much.
[10:26.670 --> 10:29.670]  You know, we were looking over the website, EFF.
[10:29.870 --> 10:33.290]  We've done it many, many times, but just really going through it with a fine-toothed comb.
[10:33.450 --> 10:41.270]  And we can't figure out how you guys are able to be involved in so many things, because there really are so many projects, so many things to be concerned about.
[10:41.270 --> 10:48.670]  And I think, you know, a lot of normal people like us just get overwhelmed and feel like we can't possibly keep up with it all.
[10:48.690 --> 10:49.490]  How do you guys do it?
[10:50.170 --> 10:52.350]  I mean, it takes a lot of work.
[10:52.470 --> 10:57.290]  I mean, we are an organization where, gosh, almost 100 people now.
[10:57.410 --> 11:00.730]  Sometimes people look at what we're doing and they think, oh, you must be thousands of people.
[11:00.890 --> 11:02.050]  We're not even 100.
[11:03.010 --> 11:04.350]  And that's only pretty recent.
[11:04.530 --> 11:05.850]  And we just, we work hard.
[11:06.010 --> 11:09.230]  We keep an eye on everything we can.
[11:09.870 --> 11:10.390]  Wow.
[11:10.530 --> 11:10.790]  Well, okay.
[11:10.890 --> 11:17.530]  Well, I'll give you the opportunity to pick a project or a campaign that is currently being worked upon.
[11:17.610 --> 11:18.790]  But we're going to talk about a whole bunch of them.
[11:19.350 --> 11:21.990]  But is there anything that's fresh on your mind?
[11:23.310 --> 11:31.810]  So one we actually literally just launched yesterday is a campaign to target, I think it's eight Democratic Congress people.
[11:34.610 --> 11:45.530]  There are rumors that they are offering, instead of capitulating to President Trump's demand for a physical wall, that they're saying, nah, not a physical wall, but we'll give you a tech wall instead.
[11:46.290 --> 11:54.230]  And that is a euphemism for more surveillance at the border, including up to 100 miles within the U.S.
[11:54.390 --> 11:54.590]  border.
[11:55.190 --> 12:02.810]  And so we are targeting them and trying to convince them that a surveillance wall is not an improvement over a physical wall.
[12:03.550 --> 12:06.090]  So that's one that is fresh in my mind.
[12:06.090 --> 12:15.670]  And we need all the help we can get to convince those Congress people that more surveillance at the border than 100 miles inland is a bad idea.
[12:15.670 --> 12:15.970]  Right.
[12:16.090 --> 12:18.570]  I was looking that over on your site, actually.
[12:19.270 --> 12:23.030]  Increased mass surveillance, including at the border, threatens everyone's civil liberties.
[12:23.550 --> 12:29.950]  Yet some congressional Democrats looking for alternatives to Trump's demand for a border wall are offering a border security proposal.
[12:30.070 --> 12:34.290]  We've all heard this, suggesting expanding surveillance at the border.
[12:34.370 --> 12:38.650]  And I have to say, you know, in the media, nobody's really criticizing this.
[12:38.770 --> 12:43.030]  Nobody's really picking it apart, as we are doing right now.
[12:44.290 --> 12:52.410]  Now, your site says, I could lead to new funding for technologies that invade the privacy of immigrants, travelers, and American citizens living near the border.
[12:52.930 --> 13:05.290]  Now, while Congress should not counter President Trump's calls for a physical wall with a tech wall, unchecked use of surveillance tech undermines everyone's right to privacy, especially the most vulnerable members of society.
[13:05.410 --> 13:12.250]  We stand with more than two dozen civil liberties groups who have told congressional Democrats that we oppose such measures.
[13:12.250 --> 13:24.530]  And that proposal suggests new cutting-edge technology, which can include everything from automated license plate readers, known as ALPRs, which collect sensitive location data from everybody who drives by them.
[13:25.170 --> 13:25.830]  U.S.
[13:26.010 --> 13:30.230]  Customs and Border Protection already deploys ALPRs, not just at the U.S.
[13:30.330 --> 13:34.430]  border, but as you mentioned, at internal checkpoints as far as 100 miles inland.
[13:34.690 --> 13:40.910]  Also, the new cutting-edge technology could expand existing biometric screening of travelers.
[13:40.910 --> 13:48.010]  The federal government already conducts face surveillance of all travelers, and we notice that in airports now, both U.S.
[13:48.090 --> 13:50.850]  citizens and foreign nationals, on international flights.
[13:51.030 --> 13:55.410]  Other threats include iris scans, voice prints, collection of DNA information.
[13:56.010 --> 14:06.990]  And given the sensitivity of biometric information, EFF is concerned about the threat that any collected data will be stolen or misused, as well as the potential for such programs to expand beyond their original scope.
[14:07.170 --> 14:11.750]  But, Jeremy, it's more than just worry about it being stolen.
[14:11.970 --> 14:15.550]  It's also the misuse within those very organizations, correct?
[14:18.290 --> 14:18.830]  I'm sorry.
[14:19.030 --> 14:19.950]  I didn't have you up.
[14:21.070 --> 14:21.730]  Oh, sorry?
[14:21.890 --> 14:22.330]  Go ahead.
[14:22.430 --> 14:22.850]  Start again.
[14:22.930 --> 14:24.090]  I didn't have you turned up.
[14:24.090 --> 14:25.170]  Oh, yeah.
[14:25.350 --> 14:26.370]  So, absolutely.
[14:26.510 --> 14:28.410]  We are worried about the misuse within organizations.
[14:28.670 --> 14:43.310]  I mean, we've seen time and time again that when the government collects data for one purpose, unless there are very strong laws against, you know, reuse of the data, and there aren't in this case, it can be reused and shared with law enforcement.
[14:43.310 --> 14:58.650]  And so, you know, we're concerned that innocent American citizens are going to have their data scooped up, and then, you know, the FBI or, you know, a state agency will call up the feds and say, we'd like the data that you have on this person.
[14:59.570 --> 15:03.070]  And so, it isn't... yeah, it's not just, will the data get stolen?
[15:03.070 --> 15:04.550]  Because it inevitably will.
[15:04.730 --> 15:07.970]  I mean, the government is not immune to data breaches.
[15:09.070 --> 15:11.090]  And so, yeah, it's a big worry.
[15:11.090 --> 15:13.390]  You know, you make a great point.
[15:13.410 --> 15:23.330]  I mean, and it's so easy to point to these major data breaches that have affected the government and particularly sensitive areas of data, like SF-86 data.
[15:23.510 --> 15:29.030]  SF-86 are the national security questionnaires that you have to fill out when you're applying for a security clearance.
[15:29.250 --> 15:39.430]  The OPM breach that happened several years ago, which was perpetrated through basically a bogus domain name, which OPM should have been able to detect quite easily, but did not.
[15:39.430 --> 15:45.970]  But, you know, resulted in the release of massive amounts of SF-86-related data.
[15:46.170 --> 15:48.430]  And that's extraordinarily sensitive.
[15:48.630 --> 15:50.550]  I mean, that's where you have to detail your drug usage.
[15:50.710 --> 15:55.790]  You have to detail your foreign national contacts, even things like misuse of information technology.
[15:55.870 --> 16:04.350]  I had two separate security clearances in my life, one from the intelligence community, one from the defense... with the Department of Defense.
[16:04.350 --> 16:09.970]  And because of that OPM breach, I actually got two data breach notification letters from the government.
[16:10.590 --> 16:19.050]  So, you know, copies of my SF-86 are probably floating around somewhere in China, along with tens of thousands of other people that worked in this area.
[16:19.090 --> 16:20.590]  And it's a huge problem.
[16:20.670 --> 16:23.530]  We just can't trust the government to safeguard this particular information.
[16:23.730 --> 16:29.330]  Once that information is out there, it can be weaponized by foreign intelligence organizations, criminal organizations.
[16:29.330 --> 16:38.770]  And this particular surveillance wall, I thought you guys did a great job of identifying the issues in a really concise manner on the EFF's website.
[16:39.150 --> 16:51.830]  And it really seems to me like these eight Democrats that may capitulate to Trump, and I want to ask you who they are, number one, but also, Jeremy, it seems to me like it's more about the optics than anything else.
[16:52.010 --> 16:54.370]  You know, a wall is something physical that you can see.
[16:54.510 --> 16:54.910]  It's ugly.
[16:54.990 --> 16:56.130]  We don't want it on the border.
[16:56.130 --> 17:02.870]  It represents a symbol of isolationism and maybe xenophobia that we don't want to project.
[17:03.110 --> 17:09.870]  But what is it about digital surveillance that you think is particularly pernicious or creates a drag net?
[17:09.910 --> 17:14.630]  What do you think that that says about us as a culture as opposed to a physical wall?
[17:15.570 --> 17:26.850]  I mean, what's particularly pernicious is that you probably wouldn't even notice, as you alluded to, a digital or a tech wall, a surveillance wall, because it's not going to be...
[17:26.850 --> 17:33.930]  I mean, you'll notice some things, like if you have to provide your fingerprint to exit the country or something like that, or you're a U.S.
[17:33.990 --> 17:38.950]  citizen and they start requiring you to provide your fingerprint or something like that to enter the country.
[17:39.470 --> 17:41.210]  But there are parts of it that you won't notice.
[17:41.390 --> 17:46.710]  Like, when your car is picked up by an automatic license plate reader, there's no notification to you.
[17:46.870 --> 17:54.750]  Like, I mean, they have license plate readers that are meant to be disguised as, like, traffic cones and, like, construction ladders.
[17:55.310 --> 17:59.490]  You wouldn't notice one of these cameras unless you were really, really looking for it.
[17:59.610 --> 18:03.510]  And chances are, when you're driving, you should be paying attention to the road, not that.
[18:05.090 --> 18:16.190]  And so I think that's part of it, is just this sort of sneaky way that this data can be collected without people's consent, and even more so without people's knowledge.
[18:17.050 --> 18:31.230]  Whereas, and to be honest, I think that's to some degree why the Democrats are proposing this, which is unfortunate, because they just, they want to win the political battle about, you know, we didn't give Trump his wall, and look, you can't see a wall,
[18:31.330 --> 18:32.870]  therefore we didn't give Trump his wall.
[18:33.550 --> 18:41.530]  And they're sacrificing, in turn, people's ability to move around freely near the border without being monitored.
[18:41.530 --> 18:47.130]  And so that's, I mean, that's really the fundamentals of the concern for us.
[18:47.390 --> 18:55.210]  Do you see alternatives and things that they can compromise on as far as border security that don't involve this?
[18:56.650 --> 19:03.730]  So, I mean, to be honest, that's a little outside of EFFs, areas of expertise.
[19:04.090 --> 19:05.830]  Like, we are not border security experts.
[19:06.030 --> 19:08.630]  That's, you know, I'll be totally upfront about that.
[19:08.790 --> 19:10.750]  Like, we don't have a position on immigration.
[19:11.870 --> 19:19.990]  But when it comes to, when someone suggests something that then implicates civil liberties and privacy and surveillance, that's when we jump in.
[19:20.130 --> 19:27.310]  And so, it is a little tough in that we don't have, you know, good solutions for the Democrats as a different way to compromise.
[19:27.730 --> 19:30.270]  But we know that, for sure, this is not it.
[19:31.210 --> 19:32.210]  Good point.
[19:32.510 --> 19:46.730]  You know, there's long-term consequences of this type of surveillance technology being so pervasive in our society when it comes to children that I think we forget about these days too because we grew up in a time and I think given your background and your educational history,
[19:46.870 --> 19:52.010]  Jeremy, probably around my age, I would guess, you've accomplished a tremendous amount.
[19:52.510 --> 19:54.130]  We should call you Dr. Galula.
[19:55.450 --> 20:10.790]  But, in any event, you know, I have a five-year-old child and the other day he was creating with these magnetic blocks a structure, a building, and then he put these things on the side of the building and he explained to me, he said, Daddy, those are the surveillance cameras.
[20:10.990 --> 20:12.110]  Those are the security cameras.
[20:12.310 --> 20:12.330]  Oh, my God.
[20:12.450 --> 20:12.610]  Wow.
[20:12.850 --> 20:18.350]  And I couldn't believe it that this is what he thinks ordinarily go on buildings.
[20:18.390 --> 20:19.770]  What are you indoctrinating your kid with?
[20:19.770 --> 20:24.410]  This is just his natural way of, you know, viewing the world and seeing it and it's terrifying.
[20:24.410 --> 20:25.890]  Ain't nothing natural about that.
[20:25.970 --> 20:27.310]  I think it is.
[20:27.490 --> 20:29.130]  This is what's happening with kids now.
[20:29.310 --> 20:36.830]  They are becoming accustomed to being constantly under surveillance and believing that there's CCTV everywhere around them.
[20:37.030 --> 20:43.890]  And you think of it, you go into any store and you look up at the ceiling, there's 20, 30 surveillance cameras around everywhere you go.
[20:44.090 --> 20:48.770]  You walk down any street in Manhattan, every townhouse has surveillance cameras outside of them.
[20:48.870 --> 20:50.410]  Every buzzer has surveillance cameras.
[20:50.610 --> 20:51.290]  Well, I mean, that's the thing.
[20:51.390 --> 20:52.990]  Jeremy was mentioning the ALPR.
[20:53.170 --> 20:56.650]  So license plate readers, they're hidden in traffic cones or everywhere.
[20:57.130 --> 20:58.770]  We somehow got used to that.
[20:59.410 --> 21:00.910]  Jeremy, did we lose that battle?
[21:01.090 --> 21:04.990]  Is there any way to keep that from being something common in our lives?
[21:05.850 --> 21:06.710]  So I think...
[21:06.710 --> 21:08.530]  I don't think we've lost that battle.
[21:08.770 --> 21:12.390]  A good example of that is here in California where EFF is based.
[21:13.610 --> 21:15.550]  It's been a couple years now.
[21:15.670 --> 21:17.090]  Gosh, it's kind of surprising.
[21:17.730 --> 21:29.090]  We actually got some laws passed that require anybody, not just government, but anybody that, for example, uses an automatic license plate reader to publicly post some information.
[21:29.090 --> 21:38.050]  So we at least get some transparency about who is using this, what they're using it for, what types of security safeguards they've put in place, et cetera.
[21:38.770 --> 21:44.410]  And so, you know, it will always be an ongoing battle, but we never give up hope.
[21:44.910 --> 21:47.910]  We are always confident that there's more we can do.
[21:48.130 --> 22:06.870]  That's a really good point, getting more information, more particulars, because that's part of the problems with data handling when a lot of these things are implemented, especially if it's managed by a third party or some kind of contractor outside of the government.
[22:07.750 --> 22:35.330]  In addition to particulars on how it's used and shared, we know from leak stories recently and the way these things have gone, when it's in the government's interests, or in other words, it doesn't look so good for them, they get very concerned about how things are shared internally and reconfigure credentials at DOD or whatever bureaucratic organization it is.
[22:35.430 --> 22:53.590]  But if it's in private hands, unless there's something up front telling you how it's handled, how it's managed, how it's protected, that alone becomes an area of vulnerability to say nothing of the scope changing and the data being used and misused in,
[22:54.010 --> 22:55.910]  say, a new light for a different purpose.
[22:56.170 --> 23:00.930]  And when we don't have answers about that, it's additionally a concern.
[23:00.930 --> 23:06.130]  Are you getting much in the way of answers when you confront these representatives?
[23:07.770 --> 23:14.550]  So, so far, I mean, when talking about this, you know, the surveillance wall, we literally just launched the campaign yesterday.
[23:14.570 --> 23:17.450]  And so I think it's still ramping up.
[23:18.030 --> 23:19.850]  Hopefully, they're starting to pay attention.
[23:19.850 --> 23:26.770]  I don't know off the top of my head if, just how much interaction we've had since we launched it.
[23:26.890 --> 23:29.570]  Basically, we just launched it just before the State of the Union last night.
[23:30.670 --> 23:32.370]  So, hopefully, they're starting to pay attention.
[23:32.590 --> 23:38.350]  And the more that people, you can actually, if you want to, you want to help us out with this, you can go to act.eff.org.
[23:39.250 --> 23:42.170]  And it's the first action you can take right there.
[23:42.290 --> 23:46.110]  You just scroll down a little and it's, you know, no tech wall, reject new funding for border surveillance.
[23:46.250 --> 23:55.270]  If you click that, we can, you can tweet at your representatives, your senators, and tell them that this is not the right way to compromise.
[23:55.630 --> 24:09.790]  Yeah, it's really crucial to get that out there, get the discussion going, and have those questions answered by our politicians and not just have sort of an open bar, open tab on wholesale relinquishing of our rights.
[24:09.790 --> 24:15.230]  We're speaking with Jeremy Galula, the tech projects director over at the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[24:15.610 --> 24:22.190]  And as we mentioned, they're involved in so many projects, we just spent well over five minutes talking about one of them.
[24:22.270 --> 24:26.910]  So you can see we're not going to get to even a good fraction of them.
[24:27.010 --> 24:38.850]  But I feel this is a good point to step in and let people know what it is we're offering tonight for our fundraiser to keep WBAI going and also to spread some awareness about what the Electronic Frontier Foundation is up to.
[24:39.790 --> 24:45.650]  of $100 at 516-620-3602, you'll get a special EFF package.
[24:45.810 --> 24:46.650]  Now, what does that include?
[24:46.790 --> 24:53.650]  It includes an autographed copy of Lawrence Lessig's book, Code and Other Laws of Cyberspace.
[24:53.890 --> 25:00.510]  Lawrence Lessig is an American academic attorney, political activist, very well-known in the community.
[25:00.690 --> 25:23.870]  And Code and Other Laws of Cyberspace is a fascinating book about implications for copyright law, cyberspace changes, not only the technology of copying, but also the power of law to protect against illegal copying, goes so far as to argue that code displaces the balance in copyright law and doctrines such as fair use.
[25:24.450 --> 25:28.650]  We can go on and on of what's included in that, but it's a fascinating read.
[25:28.950 --> 25:30.730]  But that's only one of the items.
[25:30.890 --> 25:46.630]  You will also get The End of Trust, which is another compendium with all kinds of writers that have contributed including I don't have the list in front of me.
[25:46.970 --> 25:47.770]  Rob, do you have it?
[25:47.890 --> 25:48.830]  I have some of it.
[25:49.130 --> 25:56.250]  The End of Trust is actually issue 54 of McSweeney's Quarterly Concern if you're familiar with McSweeney's, the well-respected literary journal.
[25:56.730 --> 26:02.150]  And just some of the people, this is their first non-fiction issue, their first entirely non-fiction issue of McSweeney's.
[26:02.330 --> 26:04.330]  And it's this amazing compendium.
[26:04.670 --> 26:06.230]  Edward Snowden has written in it.
[26:07.050 --> 26:10.470]  Gabriella Coleman, Hope speaker and past guest on this program.
[26:11.050 --> 26:13.370]  Dozens and dozens of these luminaries.
[26:13.610 --> 26:14.750]  I think you've got some more.
[26:14.950 --> 26:20.370]  Yeah, I think Cory Doctorow, another Hope speaker, actually, a keynote speaker that we had at Hope.
[26:20.370 --> 26:22.170]  I guess it was four years ago, wasn't it?
[26:22.410 --> 26:28.330]  Also very well-known in the community, Bruce Schneier and the executive director of EFF, Cindy Cohn.
[26:29.730 --> 26:39.410]  You know, it's just, it's kind of an amazing compendium of essays by really smart, well-known people, the kind of stuff that, you know, is not going to put you to sleep immediately.
[26:39.690 --> 26:40.170]  Certainly not.
[26:40.370 --> 26:41.570]  Yeah, absolutely not.
[26:41.790 --> 26:44.870]  Probably a little bit frightening to read, I would imagine, as well.
[26:46.190 --> 26:52.810]  And, you know, it's just, you don't get that many luminaries stuffed into one issue, I think, really ever.
[26:53.050 --> 26:53.250]  No.
[26:53.250 --> 26:54.950]  So this is a really cool offer.
[26:54.950 --> 26:57.310]  And that's still just item number two in this package.
[26:57.550 --> 27:00.410]  Item number three is the EFF sticker pack.
[27:00.890 --> 27:07.690]  Now, the sticker pack basically is an assortment of topical EFF stickers, including the NSA Spying Eagle.
[27:07.710 --> 27:09.930]  I do not consent to the search of this device.
[27:11.350 --> 27:17.550]  And also, this is really cool, something called a laptop camera cover set.
[27:18.010 --> 27:25.930]  Basically, adhesive stickers designed to protect you from visual surveillance by covering the lens of your laptop camera and other devices.
[27:26.130 --> 27:35.170]  And they have a unique ultra-removable adhesive so it prevents gummy residue on your lens, which is a lot better than masking tape, which I know a lot of people use.
[27:35.950 --> 27:39.750]  So it's not just, you know, covering it up with a piece of tape.
[27:39.830 --> 27:41.130]  This is something that's specially designed.
[27:41.150 --> 27:45.070]  I believe, Rob, you have some information on how not to do that.
[27:45.270 --> 27:45.730]  Right.
[27:45.930 --> 27:49.150]  There was a fun tweet by the EFF on February the 1st.
[27:49.650 --> 28:01.890]  The NSA, that many of you may have heard of, a famous three-letter government organization, is among these organizations that if you go to various tech events and conferences and things, they'll give away swag.
[28:02.090 --> 28:06.250]  And a popular piece of swag these days is a little plastic cover for your webcam.
[28:06.650 --> 28:13.610]  The NSA was giving out these purple ones, but the EFF noticed that these webcam covers were actually translucent.
[28:14.430 --> 28:23.550]  You could kind of see through them and they posted a picture of this and tweeted to the NSA, at NSA.gov, the webcam covers you're giving out have an interesting defect.
[28:23.710 --> 28:27.170]  The purple ones are transparent and they posted the photo and stuff.
[28:27.430 --> 28:34.930]  And, of course, they referred to these stickers which are a part of this package we're giving away that the EFF make which are actually not translucent.
[28:35.170 --> 28:36.830]  So do you think that was done on purpose?
[28:38.270 --> 28:40.110]  The NSA did it on purpose?
[28:40.210 --> 28:41.530]  Well, they do like to spy on people.
[28:41.550 --> 28:41.810]  They do.
[28:42.010 --> 28:48.570]  They like spying and it's kind of funny that they were giving out webcam covers in the first place when they're part of the reason that I think some people want to have a webcam cover.
[28:48.910 --> 28:52.810]  Either they did it on purpose or even the NSA doesn't know how to do it properly.
[28:53.110 --> 28:57.950]  In any event, these stickers will protect you and it's done the right way.
[28:58.070 --> 29:03.350]  But wait, that's still not all because one more item in this amazing package is the EFF beanie.
[29:03.570 --> 29:04.210]  That's right.
[29:04.390 --> 29:07.290]  It's a hat that proudly says EFF on it.
[29:07.570 --> 29:11.830]  It's a white embroidery on stretchy double-layered black acrylic.
[29:12.350 --> 29:19.270]  Hats measure 7.5 by 8 inches and that is just an amazing package.
[29:19.450 --> 29:19.770]  All of that.
[29:19.890 --> 29:23.610]  And did I mention also the Lawrence Lessig book is autographed, Code and Other Laws of Cyberspace.
[29:24.090 --> 29:28.670]  So you get two books, you get a hat, you get a sticker package all for a pledge of $100.
[29:29.210 --> 29:33.090]  We have a limited number 516-620-3602.
[29:33.230 --> 29:41.510]  This will pretty much solidify your support for all kinds of civil liberty issues online and for WBAI as well.
[29:41.810 --> 29:44.670]  516-620-3602.
[29:44.790 --> 29:56.870]  Please give a call and support Off the Hook, support EFF, support WBAI, support freedom of thought and ideas and individuality and all sorts of nice things like that.
[29:57.150 --> 30:05.750]  Don't forget your donation and contributions tonight are tax-deductible and you can contribute any amount.
[30:05.750 --> 30:09.750]  This is a package at a particular level but it doesn't really matter.
[30:09.910 --> 30:13.590]  There's no cap and there's really no minimum $10.
[30:14.030 --> 30:29.110]  If you make a basic donation tonight, we'll allow you every bit as much of membership and allow you to enjoy as much more of the great programming here at WBAI and Pacifica Radio.
[30:29.110 --> 30:33.270]  So, please don't feel limited to just this package.
[30:33.490 --> 30:35.450]  It's really our way of saying thank you.
[30:35.490 --> 30:41.290]  And you can also pay a certain amount each month and stretch it out over a year.
[30:41.350 --> 30:42.370]  So, there's all kinds of options.
[30:42.430 --> 30:51.330]  The important thing is that you make that phone call to 516-620-3602 and support WBAI because this is how we stay on the air and have conversations like this.
[30:51.450 --> 30:55.950]  And let me tell you something about this sticker pack actually with the anti-surveillance stickers.
[30:56.830 --> 30:58.390]  Those things have a lot of longevity.
[30:58.390 --> 31:03.630]  I've been using the same stickers for about 5 years from the EFF sticker pack.
[31:03.850 --> 31:06.650]  I mean, they go on and off very, very easily.
[31:06.810 --> 31:07.870]  They're extraordinarily effective.
[31:07.870 --> 31:09.350]  You can use them on multiple devices.
[31:09.590 --> 31:12.630]  You don't have to have it covering your camera the entire time.
[31:12.630 --> 31:16.970]  You can have it on the back of your phone, put it on the cover of your camera when you want to use it.
[31:16.970 --> 31:18.230]  It will outlast your version of Windows.
[31:18.450 --> 31:19.490]  It outlasts your phone.
[31:19.950 --> 31:21.910]  It will outlast several of your phones.
[31:22.070 --> 31:27.770]  It's a really low-tech but effective anti-surveillance piece of technology awesomely designed.
[31:27.770 --> 31:30.190]  Jeremy, does everybody in the EFF office use these stickers?
[31:31.170 --> 31:32.230]  For the most part.
[31:32.670 --> 31:39.990]  Well, until we decided to try out the NSA camera covers and then we discovered that they were some of them.
[31:40.270 --> 31:49.410]  Not all of them are translucent but the purple ones definitely seem to be a little translucent which makes me think it was a hilarious accident more than anything else.
[31:49.570 --> 31:50.730]  Yeah, imagine that.
[31:51.150 --> 31:54.510]  How do you cut off access to the microphones though?
[31:55.650 --> 31:56.890]  Yeah, that's a lot harder.
[31:56.890 --> 32:06.710]  You know, there are projects out there which have hardware kill switches for both cameras and microphones but it makes it a...
[32:06.710 --> 32:09.550]  not many products have that unfortunately which is...
[32:09.550 --> 32:10.330]  yeah, it's sad.
[32:10.530 --> 32:14.410]  Well, I'll look to the EFF to be the first to come out with something that most people can use.
[32:14.750 --> 32:16.730]  So, okay, we've talked about one issue.
[32:16.910 --> 32:19.090]  Let's move on to another one and it's a depressing one.
[32:19.190 --> 32:20.030]  Net Neutrality.
[32:20.030 --> 32:30.210]  The FCC's so-called Restoring Internet Freedom Order which repealed Net Neutrality Rules relies on a flawed understanding of how the internet works.
[32:30.350 --> 32:42.570]  The FCC based its order on the belief that certain functions inherent to operating an ISP qualify ISPs as information services under the Communications Act not telecommunications services.
[32:42.850 --> 32:47.330]  The courts have already ruled that Net Neutrality Rules can only be applied to telecommunication services.
[32:47.330 --> 33:05.370]  As Kevin Russell, the attorney representing public interest groups on the plaintiff's side explained, the FCC has absurdly tried to separate internet access from functionality that's necessary to providing that internet access specifically caching and domain name services known as DNS.
[33:05.910 --> 33:11.790]  These technologies are implementation details of how the internet works not separate services in their own right.
[33:12.030 --> 33:17.170]  The FCC's insistence that DNS lookups are a separate class of services is dishonest.
[33:17.330 --> 33:25.290]  In the old days, telephone companies had operators manually connect users for long-distance calls and those operators could also give callers information.
[33:25.510 --> 33:30.690]  This didn't mean that Bell was providing an information service on top of the telecommunications layer.
[33:30.930 --> 33:36.630]  The operators like DNS were there because they had to make the telecommunications work seamlessly for a user.
[33:36.810 --> 33:43.270]  Simply because they can also provide information didn't make them a fundamental part of the technical implementation.
[33:43.550 --> 33:53.390]  And as EFF has pointed out, the FCC's false distinction between internet access service and a distinct transmission service is utterly ridiculous.
[33:53.810 --> 33:55.330]  And I hear that.
[33:55.470 --> 33:57.870]  This is what we've been saying for a long, long time now.
[33:58.050 --> 34:02.990]  But, Jeremy, I have to ask the question again, is this a battle that's already been lost?
[34:04.230 --> 34:05.510]  Just the opposite, actually.
[34:05.670 --> 34:06.130]  We got...
[34:06.130 --> 34:08.150]  So there was the first...
[34:08.150 --> 34:16.930]  Well, I think the only oral argument, which is when the lawyers actually get to stand up and talk in front of a judge in the FCC case last Friday.
[34:16.930 --> 34:21.510]  And the judges were asking some pretty pointed questions to the FCC.
[34:22.290 --> 34:24.130]  At one point, one of the judges asked.
[34:24.470 --> 34:24.730]  So...
[34:24.730 --> 34:29.290]  Because one of the arguments the FCC has made is, meh, don't worry about it.
[34:29.490 --> 34:30.650]  Consumers will be protected.
[34:30.650 --> 34:37.930]  If ISPs do something bad, then the FTC, the Federal Trade Commission, can protect consumers.
[34:38.250 --> 34:40.930]  And so a judge said, okay, fine, let's test this theory.
[34:41.070 --> 34:58.030]  So say I'm Comcast or Verizon, and, you know, some video provider, you know, Hulu, Netflix, or whatever, comes and says, I'm going to pay you these bags and bags of cash, and in return, I want you to not only speed up my content, I want you to slow down my competitors.
[34:58.730 --> 35:10.230]  And so if this happened, the judge asked, like, could the... and the ISP put it in its terms of service, you know, all that fine print, and said, by the way, people can pay us to speed up or slow down content.
[35:11.070 --> 35:20.770]  And so the judge said, if the ISP did that, would that be illegal under the rules, or would the FTC, would the Federal Trade Commission, be able to do anything about it?
[35:20.970 --> 35:26.910]  And the FCC lawyer basically had to sheepishly answer, nah, it'd be... there's nothing we could do.
[35:27.910 --> 35:28.830]  It'd be legal.
[35:28.930 --> 35:42.790]  The FTC wouldn't be able to do anything about it, which is a strong sign that the judges are really worried that this is precisely the sort of thing that'll happen, and there's no... the repeal of net neutrality prevents any sort of protection for consumers about it.
[35:43.010 --> 35:55.170]  So I actually think, you know, that's a good sign that the judges are thinking they're... you know, they're asking the pointed questions, and that as a result, you know, I think it's a battle that we're actually on the way to winning.
[35:56.050 --> 35:59.810]  Yeah, and Jeremy, I presume that that case was in the D.C.
[35:59.930 --> 36:01.310]  circuit, or it was before...
[36:01.910 --> 36:02.050]  Yeah.
[36:02.050 --> 36:04.290]  I mean, and those are extraordinarily smart judges.
[36:04.530 --> 36:11.550]  They understand administrative law with a level of expertise that no other court in the country has.
[36:11.730 --> 36:17.290]  They're known, basically, you know, for this expertise, because that's where all the federal agencies are located.
[36:17.510 --> 36:23.550]  So the fact that the judges were asking these really pointed questions, I think, does not bode well for the government's position here.
[36:23.670 --> 36:31.390]  I think it buttresses your conclusion that this is certainly not a battle that is lost already, you know, in response to Emmanuel's question.
[36:32.190 --> 36:45.030]  And more to the point, you know, this kind of goes back to the State of the Union last night where Trump was out there touting the fact that he has rolled back, you know, hundreds or thousands or whatever the hell it was that he said of regulations.
[36:45.570 --> 36:52.310]  I like how he said, not unnecessary regulations, just regulations, as if by default regulations are bad.
[36:52.430 --> 36:53.030]  Well, exactly.
[36:53.230 --> 36:54.630]  Well, that's exactly my point.
[36:54.790 --> 36:56.190]  I mean, you're making it for me here.
[36:56.330 --> 36:57.850]  You're messing up my narrative flow.
[36:57.930 --> 36:58.610]  That's what I'm here for.
[36:58.730 --> 36:59.050]  I know.
[36:59.310 --> 36:59.570]  I know.
[36:59.730 --> 37:00.250]  Tell me about it.
[37:00.250 --> 37:18.190]  But the judges seem to be indicating that some of these types of regulations that have been rolled back are actually bad, especially when the FTC would not have any authority to police this kind of thing, because if they put it in a terms of service or terms of use and adhere to those particular terms,
[37:18.290 --> 37:27.950]  they wouldn't be necessarily dealing with a deceptive trade practice if it's if it is out there in the open, even if it's technically hidden within terms of service.
[37:29.870 --> 37:31.370]  Well, so go ahead, Rob.
[37:31.990 --> 37:38.270]  I just said, yeah, this really speaks to why organizations like the EFF are so important, especially nowadays.
[37:38.470 --> 37:53.790]  I mean, since the very beginning of this program on WBAI, the big struggle, one of the major struggles of the whole hacker world that we're involved in is that the people making the rules around these things don't know a damn thing about the technology and how things actually work in the real world.
[37:54.570 --> 38:15.930]  And so like having having people like the EFF to not only put in the work and get out there and announce to the general public how things work and and how things are crazy or not crazy, but actually follow up and follow up with the people in control, with the the people in in government and judges and all these other entities and just say,
[38:16.030 --> 38:21.670]  hey, you know, in case you're unfamiliar, this is how the actual technology behind what you're what you're legislating is.
[38:21.990 --> 38:24.550]  And that's that's that's completely vital.
[38:25.510 --> 38:41.750]  I mean, that is one of my my favorite things about working at EFF is, you know, we got to put as, you know, leading up to this back before the the repeal actually went through, we got to put together a list of over 190 engineers, including some real Internet luminaries who said to the FCC,
[38:41.950 --> 38:43.750]  you know, it's not just EFF making these arguments.
[38:43.750 --> 38:47.390]  We're the people who actually wrote the code, who invented the damn Internet.
[38:48.270 --> 38:50.410]  Sorry, I guess I can't curse on on life.
[38:50.470 --> 38:51.950]  Oh, that's certainly that's certainly OK.
[38:52.330 --> 38:52.970]  Don't worry about that.
[38:53.230 --> 38:54.050]  The darn Internet.
[38:54.430 --> 38:56.930]  And you're not explaining how it works correctly, FCC.
[38:57.190 --> 39:06.170]  You have no under you're twisting how it works in order to make it fit this legal, you know, into this legal jigsaw puzzle that just doesn't make any sense.
[39:06.350 --> 39:16.450]  And I just I love that we're able to to collaborate and work with the hacker community to be able to make statements like that, to say it's not just some, you know, advocacy organization like EFF.
[39:16.630 --> 39:20.270]  These are the real people who are the real engineers and they're saying you've got it wrong.
[39:20.690 --> 39:32.850]  For the non lawyers amongst us, and I know you're not a lawyer either, but maybe you could explain this for people that don't know as as much as as EFF and so many other experts on the subject.
[39:33.150 --> 39:38.250]  How come we couldn't have this conversation a year ago and prevent this from happening in the first place?
[39:38.910 --> 39:40.270]  So we tried, actually.
[39:40.550 --> 39:57.050]  We we absolutely so in the run up to the FCC deciding to repeal net neutrality, they had to do what's called a notice of proposed rulemaking, which is a fancy way for saying they had to announce to the to the country what their intention was and then ask for feedback.
[39:57.050 --> 40:12.090]  And we gave them feedback that the the letter I mentioned is, for example, one of the the pieces of feedback that they got amongst the millions and millions of comments they got from everyday individuals, just normal people across the country who said don't repeal net neutrality.
[40:12.470 --> 40:15.370]  And then they just decided to ignore everybody and listen to the big ISP.
[40:15.570 --> 40:17.890]  Well, they also got a whole bunch of those.
[40:17.970 --> 40:22.330]  They also got a whole bunch of of carbon copied ones that were being created by some computer somewhere.
[40:23.470 --> 40:25.890]  Yeah, that was that's you know, that's it.
[40:25.910 --> 40:30.810]  That's a tricky issue because there were some organizations like EFF, like we were helping.
[40:30.930 --> 40:34.490]  We had a system that was designed to help people write comments to the FCC.
[40:34.870 --> 40:41.630]  But then there were definitely sort of carbon copy comments that were being sent to the FCC as well.
[40:42.090 --> 40:46.990]  And that's a that's a whole nother can of worms that is just really, really ugly.
[40:47.230 --> 40:56.410]  Yeah, just with that particular can of worms, there were people who found out that comments had been made in their name by who knows who, like saying, no, no, get rid of net neutrality.
[40:56.530 --> 40:59.850]  There were comments made in the names of deceased people and things like that.
[40:59.970 --> 41:06.070]  And then when confronted with that, the FCC seemed strangely unable to investigate or care, really.
[41:06.470 --> 41:10.410]  So so, Jeremy, what stage are we in now with the whole net neutrality fight?
[41:10.790 --> 41:12.050]  What comes next?
[41:12.950 --> 41:18.170]  So after now that the oral arguments have been made, we're basically waiting for the the D.C.
[41:18.270 --> 41:21.170]  Circuit, the Court of Appeals to issue a decision.
[41:22.350 --> 41:29.890]  And that could take well, I've talked to some of the attorneys and they think that'll probably be by the end of the summer.
[41:30.270 --> 41:37.050]  And that sounds incredibly long to a technologist like me, who's like, what, you know, write it up, put it out there.
[41:38.050 --> 41:46.570]  But supposedly that the lawyers tell me that in the in the greater scheme of things, in terms of judicial decision making, that's actually incredibly fast.
[41:47.450 --> 41:54.330]  So I'll take their word for it and we will wait with bated breath to see what they, how they were convinced by the end of the summer.
[41:54.510 --> 41:59.050]  But right now, as of this moment, net neutrality is is not protected.
[41:59.050 --> 42:01.490]  It's not a thing on the Internet in the United States, correct?
[42:02.190 --> 42:02.510]  Correct.
[42:02.770 --> 42:05.650]  Have have you guys noticed any adverse effects already?
[42:06.810 --> 42:13.310]  I mean, to be honest, the ISPs were already starting to do some some pretty sneaky things even before this.
[42:14.090 --> 42:20.430]  One of the things that they I mean, in the run up to the repeal of net neutrality and they're continuing to do it.
[42:20.530 --> 42:28.650]  I mean, one of the big ones that really sort of irritate us is they continue to market these unlimited internet plans.
[42:28.930 --> 42:31.970]  And then if you look at the fine print, unlimited doesn't mean unlimited data.
[42:32.130 --> 42:41.750]  It means we'll give you so much high speed data and then we're going to throttle you after that, regardless of whether there's congestion on the network or what.
[42:41.990 --> 42:53.550]  And so that's been something that they've been very eager to do to try and pretend that they're unlimited and then, you know, basically give consumers short shrift as a result.
[42:53.890 --> 43:00.370]  You know, to give folks an idea of just the massive amount of things that Electronic Frontier Foundation is involved in.
[43:00.590 --> 43:09.690]  We're talking about net neutrality now, just one topic, but it falls under a category on the EFF website known as creativity and innovation topics.
[43:10.110 --> 43:25.130]  And just to give you a sense, that's just one of the categories, one of the sections, but they have all these projects, all these things that are constantly being updated and people are working on things like fair use, The Broadcast Flag, Coders Rights Project,
[43:25.570 --> 43:44.510]  Competition, Copyright Trolls, Defend Your Right to Repair, Digital Radio, Digital Video, the DMCA, DRM, File Sharing, Fixing Copyright, Hollywood versus DVD, I know that one well, No Downtime for Free Speech, Open Access, Patents, Reading Accessibility,
[43:44.950 --> 43:58.410]  Reclaim Invention, Right of Publicity, SOPA and PIPA, Internet Blacklist Legislation, Terms of Abuse, Test Your ISP, The Six Strikes Copyright Surveillance Machine, Trademark, Trusted Computing and Video Games.
[43:58.490 --> 44:00.610]  And that's just one section.
[44:01.210 --> 44:04.190]  All those things are being worked upon.
[44:04.190 --> 44:05.790]  I don't know how you guys do it.
[44:05.830 --> 44:12.910]  I know I keep saying that, but you must really be inspired to fight for these things.
[44:13.470 --> 44:14.770]  We believe in the cause.
[44:15.010 --> 44:18.790]  I mean, everyone at EFF has a passion for digital civil liberties.
[44:19.170 --> 44:28.750]  I mean, and that includes the people, you know, even down to the, you know, our accountant has a passion for digital civil liberties, even though, you know, and it's critical what she does.
[44:28.850 --> 44:32.870]  You know, people at EFF want to get paid and, you know, want their paychecks to come in on time.
[44:32.990 --> 44:33.690]  Oh, absolutely.
[44:34.710 --> 44:41.770]  But it's everyone, you know, our operations folks, the people who keep our servers running, do an amazing job.
[44:41.870 --> 44:43.270]  The people who design our website.
[44:43.490 --> 44:47.710]  I mean, our graphic designer has a passion for digital civil liberties and it's great.
[44:47.870 --> 44:49.530]  He puts out some amazing artwork.
[44:49.830 --> 44:50.970]  So it's, it's really wonderful.
[44:51.170 --> 44:53.050]  And we can't emphasize enough.
[44:53.090 --> 44:57.430]  In addition to supporting WBAI, please people support EFF, EFF.org.
[44:58.370 --> 45:02.950]  There's all kinds of ways you can contribute and, and help them out as well.
[45:03.110 --> 45:04.850]  They've been around since 1990.
[45:05.290 --> 45:06.310]  Jeremy, how did you get involved?
[45:07.350 --> 45:12.150]  Uh, I've, I've got, mine is almost the, well, almost the weirdest story EFF.
[45:12.470 --> 45:15.470]  My background is actually has nothing to do with digital civil liberties.
[45:15.810 --> 45:19.790]  Uh, I was actually worked a lot, uh, in high school and college on robotics.
[45:20.150 --> 45:27.470]  Uh, but as I was doing that, you know, I was just another sort of tech geek and robots happened to be my neat thing I wanted to play with.
[45:27.550 --> 45:29.050]  I loved programming robots.
[45:29.690 --> 45:31.330]  Uh, but I was reading stories.
[45:31.330 --> 45:40.310]  I was listening to programs like this and realizing, holy crap, the, the people who are running our country don't have a, a single idea about how technology works.
[45:40.310 --> 45:41.590]  And that bugged me.
[45:41.830 --> 45:49.850]  And eventually I decided, you know, as much as I love programming robots and I could, you know, go work for a company and work on autonomous cars or drones.
[45:50.890 --> 45:57.830]  What really bugged me and what I really wanted to change was making sure that, that civil liberties were defended in the, in the digital world.
[45:57.830 --> 46:05.430]  And so I applied to an EFF job, uh, and lo and behold, they said, you know, doesn't matter that you don't have a civil liberties background.
[46:05.430 --> 46:10.250]  What we need are smart people, uh, who can learn quickly and have a passion for this.
[46:10.410 --> 46:12.050]  And so they, they hired me.
[46:12.750 --> 46:22.190]  Um, and as a matter of fact, we're hiring now, uh, if there's, you know, if you are a hacker, a coder, an engineer, a technologist, uh, you just like making things.
[46:22.190 --> 46:26.150]  We've got a position open, uh, for on our tech projects team.
[46:26.310 --> 46:27.810]  Uh, we need a JavaScript developer.
[46:28.130 --> 46:34.130]  So, and I don't doubt that there's a listener out there someplace, probably many listeners that, that would, uh, jump at the opportunity.
[46:34.330 --> 46:35.970]  How do people, uh, apply for this?
[46:36.670 --> 46:40.130]  Uh, you just go to, I believe it's just EFF.org.
[46:40.190 --> 46:44.770]  And, uh, there's a place where you can see about and opportunities.
[46:45.510 --> 46:48.910]  Um, I don't know if jobs.eff.org works.
[46:49.050 --> 46:50.530]  I don't know that, that doesn't work.
[46:50.610 --> 46:52.270]  Hey, you're a hacker out there.
[46:52.390 --> 46:55.010]  You figure it out if you can find where it's posted.
[46:55.870 --> 46:57.670]  It's, it's on the EFF website.
[46:57.830 --> 47:03.410]  Uh, and we've got a, a, uh, post right now for a, a tech staff technologist, a JavaScript developer.
[47:03.410 --> 47:07.070]  We've also got a post if you're not technically minded, but you're passionate about these things.
[47:07.210 --> 47:13.470]  And you're, especially if you're a good writer, uh, we've got an activist position, a privacy and surveillance activist position that's open.
[47:13.850 --> 47:16.870]  And again, you don't have to have a ton of background in this space.
[47:16.970 --> 47:19.530]  What really matters is, are you smart and are you passionate?
[47:19.550 --> 47:22.950]  Are you willing to, to really fight for these things?
[47:23.690 --> 47:24.370]  That's awesome.
[47:24.570 --> 47:25.870]  That's really, really good to hear.
[47:26.210 --> 47:36.930]  And, uh, again, a reminder to our listeners, please, if you, uh, are enjoying this conversation, if you're learning from this conversation, please support the radio station by calling 516-620-3602.
[47:37.050 --> 47:50.330]  We're offering a special EFF package tonight filled with, uh, all kinds of items, autographed copy of Lawrence Lessig's code and other laws of cyberspace, uh, a copy of the collection of writings, The End of Trust.
[47:50.590 --> 47:52.190]  Really fascinating works there.
[47:52.290 --> 47:54.570]  You'll be, uh, reading that for a good long time.
[47:54.690 --> 48:04.330]  Uh, the EFF sticker package, all kinds of stickers that will let people know that you support electronic, uh, digital rights, um, and, and civil liberties and things like that.
[48:04.450 --> 48:09.730]  Also a way to protect, um, yourself from surveillance by covering up your camera in the right way.
[48:09.990 --> 48:17.290]  And you'll get an EFF hat so that people can see you when you walk down the street and know, hey, that's a person that supports the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[48:18.030 --> 48:24.370]  All for a pledge of $100, 516-620-3602 is the phone number.
[48:24.570 --> 48:26.690]  Again, we have a limited number of these items.
[48:26.730 --> 48:28.870]  Uh, and, uh, I keep forgetting to mention this.
[48:29.110 --> 48:34.490]  Uh, the, uh, Lawrence Lessig book is autographed, uh, code and other laws of cyberspace.
[48:34.770 --> 48:46.050]  Again, a copy of The End of Trust, the sticker package, the hat, but most importantly, the reason you should call 516-620-3602 is to support the radio station so that we can have these kinds of conversations.
[48:46.210 --> 48:49.490]  You don't hear this on those AM radio stations we were talking about before.
[48:49.630 --> 48:50.830]  They don't want to touch this.
[48:50.930 --> 48:52.190]  They don't want to talk about these issues.
[48:52.390 --> 49:00.310]  You won't even hear this on other non-commercial stations because it might be a little bit, uh, you know, conflicting with some of the underwriters that they have.
[49:00.450 --> 49:01.630]  We don't have these concerns.
[49:01.770 --> 49:02.510]  We don't have underwriters.
[49:02.630 --> 49:03.130]  We have listeners.
[49:03.170 --> 49:10.330]  And those are the only people that we have to worry about, um, uh, steering in the wrong direction or giving bad information.
[49:10.330 --> 49:15.830]  That's why we, we, we seek out the best and we try to provide as much accurate information as possible.
[49:15.830 --> 49:25.670]  Well, speaking of which, and you may, and you may disagree with this, Emmanuel, but I, I would like to go out on a limb and say, I think this is actually one of our better fundraiser shows that we've ever done.
[49:25.870 --> 49:34.970]  And I think it's in large part because we have somebody like Jeremy from the EFF here talking about these issues that are literally right at the forefront of national politics.
[49:35.190 --> 49:47.430]  They were, you know, bleeding edge last night as Donald Trump went on and on about this nonsense about these caravans coming in and, and, and the need to have this type of idiotic surveillance technology at the border.
[49:47.650 --> 49:49.570]  I mean, this is really, really good stuff.
[49:49.970 --> 49:56.970]  Our package tonight is an encapsulation of all of that expertise that is there at the EFF.
[49:57.310 --> 50:04.090]  And I think that the EFF and WBII go hand in hand together because, um, we need people like you, Jeremy, on the show.
[50:04.210 --> 50:15.150]  And I think the EFF needs outlets like WBII to continue to exist so that your message can get out there by supporting the station, by calling 516-620-3602, pledging $100.
[50:15.450 --> 50:18.610]  If you can do it, you get this great package like Kyle had mentioned earlier.
[50:18.810 --> 50:25.330]  If you can, if you can't do $100 and you want to do $5, you want to do $1, you want to do $10, anything helps.
[50:25.730 --> 50:30.950]  If you want to do $500 too, that we're also open to that, just so people know, you know, we don't have an upper limit.
[50:31.270 --> 50:43.130]  And of course, we still have the other option, uh, which does not come with this premium package, but, uh, which comes with convenience, um, at the Wazoo, you can be a BAI buddy, which is, uh, signing up to donate any amount of your choice, a small amount,
[50:43.270 --> 50:45.430]  a large amount, whatever is comfortable for you.
[50:45.530 --> 50:54.530]  And, uh, you will automatically donate that on a monthly basis and give us something which is amazing in the listener-supported world, which is a dependable segment of income.
[50:54.710 --> 51:03.490]  So if you go to give2wbai.org or call 516-620-3602 and, uh, investigate the BAI buddy program, you can be part of that.
[51:03.490 --> 51:05.210]  These fund drives are essential.
[51:05.470 --> 51:06.890]  They would keep us on the air.
[51:07.070 --> 51:11.470]  So please, I know it's, you know, it can be a pain to hear us asking for support.
[51:11.790 --> 51:19.250]  Uh, you hear it a lot from so many different places, uh, but in our case, uh, you really are the only source of that support.
[51:19.270 --> 51:31.170]  And if we're doing a good job, if we're, if we're, uh, having a conversation that you are interested in, if you're learning from not only this, but what we broadcast the other weeks of the year, please give a call to 516-620-3602.
[51:31.170 --> 51:33.390]  We have so many different ways that you can contribute.
[51:33.610 --> 51:44.830]  We take all major credit cards, you know, to give2wbai.org, give the number 2wbai.org, ask for the Electronic Frontier Foundation package for a pledge of $100.
[51:45.190 --> 51:48.370]  And, um, you will be, uh, quite happy with that.
[51:48.430 --> 51:52.650]  Now, uh, we have, uh, Jeremy on the phone from, uh, the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[51:52.650 --> 51:56.010]  We've been talking about, uh, only a couple of, uh, issues.
[51:56.230 --> 51:59.350]  I mentioned some of the, um, the sections on the website.
[51:59.350 --> 52:09.330]  In addition, uh, we have the transparency topics, security, privacy, international topics, free speech topics, all of which we don't have time to get into.
[52:09.450 --> 52:13.890]  But I would like to ask in, in the closing minutes that we have here, um, about Facebook.
[52:13.890 --> 52:18.930]  Because I know that, um, uh, Facebook is a big issue, uh, in, in recent weeks, certainly.
[52:19.190 --> 52:35.550]  Uh, and from a piece on the EFF website, once again, Facebook has broken the trust of its users, this time, uh, through reportedly paying people to give up their privacy by installing an application that sucks up huge amounts of sensitive data and explicitly sidestepping Apple's enterprise developer program rules.
[52:35.650 --> 52:41.650]  And in doing so, the company has repeated several of the privacy abusive practices that has been chastised for before.
[52:41.970 --> 52:49.350]  Uh, this underscores just how little the company has learned from a year of user complaints, privacy group criticisms, and congressional hearings.
[52:49.550 --> 52:54.230]  And it emphasizes the need for legislators to pass new laws to protect the public.
[52:54.390 --> 52:58.250]  Jeremy, I have to ask, do you, do you think Facebook even cares anymore?
[52:59.570 --> 53:01.710]  Uh, I think they care a little bit.
[53:01.850 --> 53:03.930]  I mean, they know that something is going on.
[53:04.070 --> 53:08.770]  I don't think they care enough, uh, quite frankly, otherwise they wouldn't have let this continue on.
[53:09.030 --> 53:15.570]  Uh, so they, I, I think it has taken all of these basically privacy scandals.
[53:15.670 --> 53:24.610]  It's actually funny on, on one of our walls in the office, we have a little wall, a little, uh, whiteboard where we say, you know, days since the latest fight, uh, Facebook privacy scandal.
[53:24.830 --> 53:27.330]  It's kind of like, you know, days since the latest accident or whatever.
[53:27.790 --> 53:30.530]  Uh, and it's at zero more often than not.
[53:30.830 --> 53:32.470]  Has it ever gotten to double digits?
[53:32.590 --> 53:33.190]  I don't think so.
[53:33.710 --> 53:37.250]  A couple of times, a couple of times it has gotten to double digits, but not often.
[53:37.390 --> 53:37.730]  Okay.
[53:38.010 --> 53:44.590]  Uh, I think that was, you know, that was maybe over the holiday break when nobody was actually, you know, publishing any interesting news or something.
[53:44.730 --> 53:45.950]  Everyone was, you know, taking a break.
[53:46.150 --> 53:46.310]  Uh-huh.
[53:46.610 --> 53:46.950]  Yeah.
[53:47.150 --> 53:58.050]  So, I think they're starting to realize, but they're definitely not at the point, uh, where they're really doing anything extremely positive or making any significant changes.
[53:58.350 --> 54:06.370]  Well, how can users protect themselves from organizations like Facebook, from social media, um, uh, invasions of their, of their privacy?
[54:07.110 --> 54:11.410]  So, one, uh, easy way you can do it, uh, EFF actually puts out a tool.
[54:11.530 --> 54:16.590]  So, this is a tool developed by the folks on my team, and this is a team of, uh, of coders and technologists.
[54:16.770 --> 54:28.770]  It's called Privacy Badger, and it's an extension for, uh, Chrome or Firefox that you can install, and it'll block, uh, Facebook's third-party tracking, as well as other third-party tracking, all over the web.
[54:29.310 --> 54:30.610]  Um, and so that's one way.
[54:30.670 --> 54:41.410]  It's not going to, you know, obviously, what you do on Facebook, Facebook is going to know about, but it's like when you're browsing to different other websites, that Facebook might be tracking you, and this will, this will stop that tracking in its tracks,
[54:41.630 --> 54:42.130]  pun intended.
[54:42.910 --> 54:48.370]  Great, and one other project I really feel we should mention is the, uh, Let's Encrypt project you guys are involved in.
[54:49.030 --> 54:50.610]  Uh, you want to tell people something about that?
[54:51.070 --> 55:00.530]  Yeah, so Let's Encrypt, so for a long, long time, it was really hard to get, make your website secure, to get that little lock icon, make it encrypted, make it, you go over HTTPS.
[55:01.590 --> 55:16.270]  And, basically, EFF, along with Mozilla, uh, and the University of Michigan, decided, uh, realized we were all working on this problem at the same time, and decided to launch our own certificate authority that would give away free HTTPS certificates, do it automatically,
[55:16.650 --> 55:26.790]  and then give, write the software, uh, so that people would be able to do this without needing to be, like, deep security experts, because we really wanted to just raise the bar.
[55:27.090 --> 55:32.470]  I mean, you know, it's not going to make your site hack-proof, but it is going to raise the bar of security, generally.
[55:32.750 --> 55:36.370]  And so we've issued something like 140 million certificates.
[55:36.370 --> 55:37.150]  Oh, my God.
[55:37.790 --> 55:38.190]  Wow.
[55:38.370 --> 55:49.030]  Since we've launched, I mean, it's, you can see, if you go to, uh, letsencrypt.org, uh, there's a stats page there, and you can see, uh, exactly how well, uh, how well it's going.
[55:49.190 --> 55:52.910]  And so that's, that's been a huge, huge win on our part.
[55:52.970 --> 55:55.450]  I thought you were going to say 140,000, but that's, that's incredible.
[55:55.590 --> 56:05.990]  And it's been a godsend, uh, to organizations like ours, uh, because, you know, they were, they were charging huge amounts of money just to get that little icon, um, um, thing on, on, on the URL.
[56:06.510 --> 56:11.750]  And, uh, you know, why, why would you trust those people to say that you're trustworthy?
[56:12.150 --> 56:16.790]  You know, it was a problem that we all had, but this is something I think we can all stand behind.
[56:16.790 --> 56:18.410]  And it's, it's awesome you guys did that.
[56:19.390 --> 56:23.530]  Yeah, that, that I think is one of the, I mean, to me, it's one of the biggest successes of VFF.
[56:23.790 --> 56:33.450]  I mean, in the past something like four or five years, we've gone from 30% of page loads being secure to now almost 80%.
[56:33.450 --> 56:37.590]  Uh, and that's across the world based on telemetry from Firefox.
[56:38.170 --> 56:41.870]  That's that, I just think that's huge in just encrypting the web.
[56:42.150 --> 56:49.810]  Well, uh, Jeremy, our thanks go to you and to the, uh, entire Electronic Frontier Foundation for all that you have been doing and all that you are continuing to do.
[56:49.850 --> 56:58.790]  And I just hope that, uh, people realize this and support your organization and help make you stronger because as much as we've needed you in the past, we're going to need you even more in the future.
[56:59.670 --> 57:00.750]  Well, thank you very much.
[57:00.810 --> 57:04.790]  And thanks for giving, uh, here at EFF a place to get our message out.
[57:04.950 --> 57:06.230]  Uh, we really appreciate it.
[57:06.290 --> 57:07.310]  Good luck with your funding drive.
[57:07.430 --> 57:08.050]  Thanks very much.
[57:08.110 --> 57:09.290]  And we'll, we'll talk to you again.
[57:09.790 --> 57:13.410]  Jeremy Galula, the tech projects director at the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[57:13.870 --> 57:19.990]  And again, let us give out our phone number 516-620-3602 for a pledge of $100.
[57:20.410 --> 57:29.330]  You'll get the EFF package, uh, which, uh, consists of two books and, um, uh, the, uh, EFF stickers, the EFF hat.
[57:29.510 --> 57:31.470]  It's, uh, it's an incredible, uh, package.
[57:31.750 --> 57:32.610]  It really is.
[57:32.710 --> 57:41.650]  And, uh, Jeremy mentioned that EFF graphic designer, um, some wonderful work done on these stickers, uh, and it, yeah, they're attractive and useful and send a real message.
[57:42.170 --> 57:42.470]  Yeah.
[57:42.530 --> 57:48.310]  And in case, uh, you have to ask for the exact name of it, it's, uh, it's known as the Electronic Frontier Foundation package.
[57:49.210 --> 57:50.370]  And again, we have a limited number.
[57:50.590 --> 57:57.590]  I don't know if we even have any left, but, um, the number to call to support the radio station in any event, 516-620-3602.
[57:57.890 --> 57:59.330]  That's going to do it for us tonight.
[57:59.330 --> 58:03.950]  You can write to us, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[58:04.610 --> 58:05.490]  We'll see you next time.
[58:05.570 --> 58:05.730]  Good night.
[58:17.320 --> 59:00.360]  She's on the water No shedding tears Goal is real near Try to shift Into gear That's when I see you coming Prefent me from running Get up, get up, trying to sack myself Cause it doesn't work with no one else All of this hype all around Seems like a waste of time From uptown to midtown Trying to get downtown
[59:05.090 --> 59:09.710]  But I'm not getting close I'm just running, running around.
[59:13.860 --> 59:15.520]  Always at my best.
[59:18.450 --> 59:19.930]  You made it my best.
[59:22.510 --> 59:24.250]  I don't need no breath.
[59:27.190 --> 59:28.770]  It's my touchdown.
[59:31.410 --> 59:32.950]  And I'm in the beat.
[59:35.860 --> 59:37.540]  And I know that I
[59:42.000 --> 59:44.180]  will fall through.
[59:45.700 --> 59:47.060]  I gotta go on.
[59:47.520 --> 59:48.660]  I gotta move on.
[59:49.240 --> 59:50.360]  I gotta get on.
[59:54.170 --> 59:58.750]  Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey,
[59:58.750 --> 01:00:09.190]  hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey,
[01:00:09.190 --> 01:00:12.490]  hey, hey, hey, hey, hey I'm all around.
[01:00:12.750 --> 01:00:14.790]  Seems like a waste of time.
[01:00:15.130 --> 01:00:16.910]  Seems like a waste of time with big time.
[01:00:17.410 --> 01:00:20.450]  Let me tell you, let me give everybody a little something.
[01:00:21.410 --> 01:00:23.430]  But let me give you a word of advice.
[01:00:23.690 --> 01:00:25.810]  It seems like a waste of time, but it's nice.
[01:00:26.290 --> 01:00:29.390]  And look, you just can't keep going around cutting corners.
[01:00:30.550 --> 01:00:32.710]  And in life, stronger will help you later.
[01:00:32.910 --> 01:00:33.650]  No cutting corners.
[01:00:34.050 --> 01:00:35.470]  Always at my best.
[01:00:36.110 --> 01:00:37.370]  And I'm in the beat.
[01:00:38.430 --> 01:00:39.950]  Give it to my best.
[01:00:40.530 --> 01:00:41.870]  Cause I got to move.
[01:00:42.690 --> 01:00:44.410]  I don't need no rest.
[01:00:45.070 --> 01:00:46.290]  I don't need time to rest.
[01:00:47.410 --> 01:00:49.030]  It's my test now.
[01:00:49.410 --> 01:00:50.790]  You know I got to groove.
[01:00:51.650 --> 01:00:52.930]  And I'm in the beat.
[01:00:52.990 --> 01:00:53.990]  And I will give it my best.
[01:00:54.090 --> 01:00:55.130]  That's very unique.
[01:00:55.170 --> 01:00:56.210]  Running from east to west.
[01:00:56.350 --> 01:00:58.570]  And I know that I got to move, y'all.
[01:00:58.850 --> 01:00:59.730]  I'm running for me.
[01:00:59.910 --> 01:01:02.040]  Take it cool.
[01:01:02.180 --> 01:01:03.060]  Dippity hop, y'all.
[01:01:03.140 --> 01:01:04.140]  It's my groove.
[01:01:04.400 --> 01:01:05.380]  Dippity hop, y'all.
[01:01:05.880 --> 01:01:06.980]  I gotta go on.
[01:01:07.040 --> 01:01:07.740]  Go on.
[01:01:07.900 --> 01:01:08.580]  I gotta move on.
[01:01:08.720 --> 01:01:09.440]  Move on.
[01:01:09.580 --> 01:01:10.340]  I gotta get on.
[01:01:19.950 --> 01:01:21.030]  She's on the floor.