[00:00.000 --> 00:02.460]  Author of the groundbreaking new book, Birth Strike.
[00:02.760 --> 00:05.760]  It looks at why it is so much more difficult for U.S.
[00:05.840 --> 00:14.180]  women to work and raise children than it is for women in many other countries, and asks if our low birth rate is a response to bad working conditions.
[00:14.700 --> 00:19.020]  Brown claims it is that we're on a birth strike, but now need to add the demands.
[00:19.640 --> 00:22.660]  So tune in Thursday, 7 to 9 p.m., Joy of Resistance.
[00:22.980 --> 00:27.260]  Check out the birth strike and find out if communists really do have better sex.
[00:32.170 --> 00:35.540]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:35.740 --> 00:36.840]  The time is 7.01.
[00:37.040 --> 00:38.980]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[02:30.030 --> 02:31.590]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:31.670 --> 02:33.170]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:33.370 --> 02:35.910]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by Rob T.
[02:36.090 --> 02:36.530]  Firefly.
[02:36.810 --> 02:37.210]  Good evening.
[02:37.490 --> 02:37.890]  Alex?
[02:38.070 --> 02:38.590]  It is I.
[02:38.850 --> 02:39.270]  Kyle?
[02:39.750 --> 02:39.950]  Hello.
[02:40.210 --> 02:42.250]  And our special guest, Nancy Wyden, is joining us again.
[02:42.390 --> 02:42.670]  Hello.
[02:42.930 --> 02:43.490]  From the Strand.
[02:43.690 --> 02:45.910]  We'll be talking about that in just a little bit.
[02:45.910 --> 02:49.630]  But first, we have some news to update people with.
[02:49.630 --> 02:54.270]  First of all, thank you to everybody who called in last week for the first week of our fun drive.
[02:54.590 --> 02:57.510]  And we're now in the second week of our fun drive.
[02:57.650 --> 03:03.550]  And of course, we are still asking for calls to 516-620-3602 with pledges or whatever you can afford.
[03:04.190 --> 03:12.050]  BAI Buddy, that is a great system that we have in place where you can donate a certain small amount every month.
[03:12.050 --> 03:14.590]  And it adds up to a bigger amount throughout the course of a year.
[03:14.750 --> 03:20.270]  Just ask the person at the other end of the phone, 516-620-3602.
[03:20.390 --> 03:22.730]  516-620-3602.
[03:22.850 --> 03:27.450]  Or go to give2wbai.org and find out more about it there.
[03:28.710 --> 03:32.510]  Okay, so this is what's been going on.
[03:33.430 --> 03:36.410]  A bunch of hacking-related news items.
[03:37.190 --> 03:38.470]  This is kind of sad.
[03:39.750 --> 03:44.070]  An email provider known as VFE Mail was destroyed.
[03:44.410 --> 03:46.670]  Yeah, it was destroyed.
[03:46.670 --> 03:47.470]  All U.S.
[03:47.550 --> 03:48.650]  data, actually, within it.
[03:49.550 --> 03:53.750]  Destroyed by an unknown hacker, deleting nearly two decades' worth of emails.
[03:54.550 --> 03:57.350]  That email provider was founded in 2001.
[03:57.950 --> 04:02.570]  What they basically do, they scan each email for viruses and spam before they get to somebody's inbox.
[04:02.690 --> 04:06.870]  And if a virus is found, it's blocked from getting onto VFE Mail's servers.
[04:08.010 --> 04:14.310]  But now, a lot of things are blocked from their servers, including all of their emails that have been stored there.
[04:15.330 --> 04:21.210]  Their founder, their owner, Rick Romero, said on Twitter, Yes, VFE Mail is effectively gone.
[04:21.210 --> 04:22.490]  It will likely not return.
[04:22.770 --> 04:28.290]  I never thought anyone would care about my labor of love so much that they'd want to completely and thoroughly destroy it.
[04:28.290 --> 04:33.450]  Well, Rick, let us introduce you to the internet, because that's exactly what people live for.
[04:33.630 --> 04:38.430]  And it's very unfortunate that this is the fate of this particular company.
[04:40.450 --> 04:49.610]  VFE Mail, I believe is how you say it, began noticing the issue on Monday, tweeting that all externally facing systems and multiple data centers are down.
[04:50.450 --> 04:54.350]  Then they said they caught a hacker who was in the middle of formatting the backup server.
[04:55.270 --> 04:59.190]  The email provider then tweeted that all U.S.-based data may be lost.
[04:59.290 --> 05:03.430]  An hour later, VFE Mail said the attacker had formatted the disks on every server.
[05:03.570 --> 05:04.850]  Every file server is lost.
[05:04.950 --> 05:06.490]  Every backup server is lost.
[05:06.650 --> 05:09.710]  We have suffered catastrophic destruction at the hands of a hacker.
[05:09.930 --> 05:13.650]  This person has destroyed all data in the U.S., both primary and backup systems.
[05:13.650 --> 05:15.650]  We are working to recover what data we can.
[05:16.810 --> 05:22.470]  And then they went on to write, strangely, not all voicemails shared the same authentication, but all were destroyed.
[05:23.010 --> 05:25.870]  This was more than a multi-password via SSH exploit.
[05:26.030 --> 05:27.950]  There was no ransom, just attack and destroy.
[05:28.230 --> 05:33.550]  Now, supposedly, some VFE Mail users who didn't want their email stored in the U.S.
[05:33.630 --> 05:37.550]  had it stored on servers in the Netherlands, but that data was also destroyed.
[05:38.050 --> 05:45.230]  The provider's backup there was intact, so some data in the Netherlands was restored, but nowhere near a full restore.
[05:45.650 --> 05:46.170]  A couple of things.
[05:46.410 --> 05:51.570]  You know, yeah, to say that this was done by a hacker, I don't know if that's entirely accurate.
[05:51.850 --> 06:01.150]  It's done by an idiot, done by somebody who is bent on destruction, and they might have used hacking techniques to get in, but did they really do any hacking themselves?
[06:01.270 --> 06:02.130]  Did they figure it out?
[06:02.410 --> 06:04.070]  Did they just follow a script?
[06:04.330 --> 06:06.090]  This is not what hackers do, obviously.
[06:06.350 --> 06:12.410]  This is what somebody, maybe with some skill, can do with evil intent.
[06:12.810 --> 06:22.310]  But, you know, the other thing that bugs me about this story is that somebody was able to access both the email provider and the backup server at the same time.
[06:22.310 --> 06:29.350]  You never have the backup server in the same place or accessible in the same way because of things like this.
[06:29.490 --> 06:33.270]  And this is another reason why people should...
[06:33.270 --> 06:41.890]  Well, I know it's not realistic to expect people to run their own email servers, but this is why you have to take control one way or another, whether that means keeping your own backup someplace else.
[06:41.950 --> 06:45.070]  You can't depend on a company to do this for you.
[06:45.590 --> 06:48.210]  You know, Gmail is not going to go out of business tomorrow, but they could.
[06:48.370 --> 06:50.550]  And if they did, they'd take everything with them.
[06:50.930 --> 06:52.470]  And you have no control over that.
[06:52.550 --> 06:53.270]  It's happened before.
[06:53.610 --> 06:59.090]  Geocities, all kinds of things disappear and are simply wiped out over the years.
[07:00.050 --> 07:05.330]  If you're running something or at least controlling where you keep copies, this won't happen to you.
[07:05.430 --> 07:05.830]  Alex?
[07:15.070 --> 07:18.910]  The fact that this backup was kept essentially on-site and accessible is very strange.
[07:19.030 --> 07:20.950]  I mean, who did their business continuity planning?
[07:21.090 --> 07:32.070]  This is why companies like Iron Mountain and lesser companies exist to keep copies of data off-site where they're inaccessible and physically not proximate to the original servers.
[07:32.190 --> 07:34.950]  This is... I think the story is a little weird, frankly.
[07:35.230 --> 07:37.490]  Well, I mean, it struck me that it was rather a small company.
[07:37.710 --> 07:44.670]  And the fact that this one person is tweeting about how, you know, it was his life's work, his passion, and I never dreamed that this would happen.
[07:44.830 --> 07:45.310]  I get that.
[07:45.330 --> 07:45.950]  I understand that.
[07:46.030 --> 07:46.870]  I have full sympathy.
[07:47.370 --> 07:49.690]  But this was not adequate security.
[07:49.910 --> 07:51.850]  I mean, I have some suspicions.
[07:52.070 --> 07:56.650]  I mean, these... and let me mark them clearly as suspicions.
[07:56.830 --> 08:12.270]  I'd be very curious if there was an insurance policy with respect to business continuity or a data breach or something to that effect, because this seems to me almost so idiotic that it would be like the equivalent of intentional arson of a building that you just...
[08:12.270 --> 08:14.270]  You've got an insurance policy covering.
[08:14.510 --> 08:15.910]  I'm saying it's suspicious.
[08:16.370 --> 08:16.930]  That's all.
[08:17.090 --> 08:20.750]  Okay, I'm sure that's going to get the attention of some people involved here.
[08:21.050 --> 08:21.550]  No doubt.
[08:21.710 --> 08:22.590]  I am not saying that.
[08:22.730 --> 08:23.390]  I'm not...
[08:23.390 --> 08:25.050]  But, you know, it's...
[08:25.050 --> 08:30.850]  Okay, if the guy gets a huge payout all of a sudden, yeah, maybe there'll be something suspicious there, but I honestly don't think that's what's going on.
[08:30.930 --> 08:31.250]  I don't know.
[08:31.330 --> 08:31.890]  Why would someone do that?
[08:32.050 --> 08:35.770]  Because they don't want to do this anymore, and they want a payout at the end of...
[08:35.770 --> 08:36.690]  You don't want to do it anymore.
[08:36.690 --> 08:39.850]  You say, I don't want to do it anymore, and I take your damn email off my server.
[08:39.950 --> 08:40.570]  That's what you do.
[08:41.070 --> 08:44.070]  Perhaps, but if you do it that way, you don't get paid out at the end.
[08:44.530 --> 08:45.570]  Wow, you are cynical.
[08:45.890 --> 08:46.570]  You are really cynical.
[08:46.850 --> 08:47.630]  That's what happens when you're a lawyer.
[08:47.750 --> 08:48.370]  New York lawyers.
[08:48.550 --> 08:48.730]  Wow.
[08:48.810 --> 08:49.050]  Exactly.
[08:49.310 --> 08:49.510]  Rob.
[08:49.890 --> 08:55.750]  Yeah, it is strange, because, like, rule one of having a backup is you don't have it in the same place.
[08:55.750 --> 09:00.150]  If it's in the same place, it's not hooked up, like, in the same sort of networking manner.
[09:00.370 --> 09:02.190]  Like, you shouldn't be able to get to it from outside.
[09:02.570 --> 09:09.970]  It should be something that you either access via your own secure little intranet type situation, or you just unplug when you're done backing it up.
[09:10.150 --> 09:12.090]  I mean, I know some of the most paranoid people on the planet.
[09:12.210 --> 09:18.330]  I know people who have buried hard drives in their backyard as backups, you know, because you don't know what's going to happen to your house.
[09:18.350 --> 09:20.650]  You don't know what's going to happen to all your property.
[09:21.110 --> 09:24.030]  And you need to keep something someplace where only you know where it is.
[09:24.990 --> 09:27.110]  People need to learn from this.
[09:27.250 --> 09:32.630]  They need to take lessons and keep things secure, because you're entrusted with other people's data.
[09:32.890 --> 09:34.730]  Yeah, and it's a very basic thing.
[09:34.850 --> 09:41.870]  Like, anyone with the sort of wherewithal to put together a system like this that people would use would also know that very basic rule.
[09:41.910 --> 09:45.210]  Maybe it's a bit much for, like, your average user just using their computer at home.
[09:45.210 --> 09:50.590]  But anyone running a system that with this kind of user base, I think that would be standard procedure.
[09:50.790 --> 09:52.030]  And it's weird that it wasn't done here.
[09:52.170 --> 09:55.010]  It seems an example of not having a third copy.
[09:56.450 --> 10:07.550]  But despite that, even if this system had been compromised, like, say, the backup system was compromised, it sounds like it may have had all the enough data to work its way to the original system.
[10:07.950 --> 10:15.910]  And I'm not sure what the Dutch connection was, if that was a third copy that was partially restored, I think, when you when you read the story itself.
[10:16.090 --> 10:25.270]  But either way, you need to have sort of a dissimilar second copy of the copy, especially if you're handling customer data.
[10:25.470 --> 10:29.350]  My understanding was that having it stored in the Netherlands instead of the US was an option.
[10:29.390 --> 10:34.710]  And they had an independent backup there that apparently was kept in a more secure place.
[10:34.890 --> 10:38.930]  But, you know, the motivation behind this also strikes me as curious.
[10:38.930 --> 10:39.230]  Why?
[10:39.230 --> 10:43.870]  Why would somebody focus so intently on this one company and try to wipe them out?
[10:44.270 --> 10:46.570]  If they're if they're looking for the person that did this?
[10:46.790 --> 10:47.810]  Well, let's look at some enemies.
[10:47.950 --> 10:53.470]  Let's let's figure out who would have this because it's unusual for anyone in the hacker community to be that destructive.
[10:53.670 --> 10:57.070]  Yes, it's it's human nature for people to do things like this.
[10:57.190 --> 11:00.370]  But it is unusual to see something so focused.
[11:00.510 --> 11:01.930]  So I'd be curious about that.
[11:02.010 --> 11:05.070]  And maybe this hacker also, before he wiped everything, copied everything.
[11:05.070 --> 11:06.470]  That's entirely possible as well.
[11:06.910 --> 11:13.890]  Yeah, I mean, the reasons why people do these kinds of things, it's always speculative, but sometimes it's as simple as proof of concept.
[11:14.510 --> 11:22.470]  You know, whoever's doing this could have been trying to prove that it's possible to do this to somebody else so that they can get paid to attack a larger target, something like that.
[11:22.590 --> 11:30.550]  But also to bounce off Kyle's point, we don't know how many email users or how large the backup of this particular data would be.
[11:30.630 --> 11:31.590]  I imagine it's pretty large.
[11:31.590 --> 11:38.990]  But to his point, this would be as simple as perhaps a couple of terabytes or maybe 10 terabytes of data, something like that.
[11:39.130 --> 11:47.990]  You could put that literally in a locked storage cabinet in your office, unconnected to anything and have a near perfect backup of this particular data.
[11:48.130 --> 11:48.750]  You don't keep it in your office.
[11:48.870 --> 11:50.530]  You don't keep it if the building gets blown up.
[11:50.710 --> 11:54.190]  I mean, I don't want to be cynical, but buildings blow up all the time.
[11:54.510 --> 11:56.030]  So keep it someplace else.
[11:56.270 --> 11:57.470]  Or someplace else, wherever you want to.
[11:57.470 --> 12:00.910]  Keep it on another coast because, you know, nuclear weapons are in play.
[12:01.850 --> 12:05.050]  You want to have your user satisfied in case you get destroyed.
[12:05.190 --> 12:07.570]  But something not connected to a network is the point.
[12:07.690 --> 12:08.770]  I don't want to bring things down too much.
[12:08.870 --> 12:09.290]  Go ahead, Kyle.
[12:09.990 --> 12:18.790]  I would just add that that kind of lends to the fact that it is a little bit fishy in that there is no sort of proof of concept there.
[12:19.110 --> 12:25.410]  At least that you would want to verify with some kind of disclosure saying, hey, I'm proving that this is broken.
[12:25.410 --> 12:26.910]  You should probably fix this.
[12:26.910 --> 12:40.210]  But the wholesale destruction, I think, sounds more like an individual user sort of angering someone and them going after everyone there or the operator themselves.
[12:40.830 --> 13:02.510]  But to not have a specific part of their security system breached and them disclosing it or pointing it out in sort of a more or less open way, just going in and destroying things kind of speaks to why this isn't necessarily a hacker thing, because I feel like they'd be trying to at least at the very least prove a point,
[13:02.690 --> 13:08.050]  you know, whether it is the basic security or the way some backup is mirrored.
[13:08.170 --> 13:25.590]  Maybe there's some keys that are not set up right or some kind of secure protocol that's not configured or an older system, it's not updated, but they're not necessarily proving a point in this instance that you would say, oh, that's why, or they're, you know,
[13:25.650 --> 13:30.590]  even a political point, which might be more in the wheelhouse of like a hacking exploit.
[13:30.730 --> 13:44.930]  If this is a security issue, something that was well known, perhaps this is a possibility, and this is more in keeping with the hacker mindset, perhaps another hacker also figured this out and has a backup because he already hacked into the system beforehand and copied everything.
[13:45.110 --> 13:48.650]  So, you know, maybe the community can help in this particular case in an unusual way.
[13:48.770 --> 14:01.990]  But keeping with the evil hacker theme right now, two computer hackers have been charged with sending false bomb and mass shooting threats to hundreds of schools, hundreds of schools in Britain and the United States, including dozens in Southern California.
[14:02.290 --> 14:05.910]  That's according to a federal indictment that was unsealed yesterday.
[14:06.530 --> 14:09.830]  The defendants are members of the Apophis Squad.
[14:10.870 --> 14:11.930]  Yeah, we all know them.
[14:11.930 --> 14:18.390]  They're a worldwide collective of computer hackers intent on causing, on using the internet to sow chaos, or sow chaos, rather.
[14:18.910 --> 14:20.250]  That's according to the indictment.
[14:20.470 --> 14:21.430]  You guys heard of them?
[14:21.710 --> 14:22.310]  Sounds Greek.
[14:22.450 --> 14:23.130]  I've never heard of them.
[14:23.490 --> 14:24.330]  You can't say I have.
[14:24.410 --> 14:24.570]  Yeah.
[14:25.370 --> 14:27.550]  It's not Greek, Kyle, because they're from North Carolina.
[14:27.770 --> 14:28.270]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[14:28.490 --> 14:30.870]  I don't think there's, no, and there's definitely not a Greek name.
[14:30.870 --> 14:31.650]  Is it a possum?
[14:32.330 --> 14:33.050]  I don't know.
[14:33.170 --> 14:40.510]  But according to the indictment, Timothy Dalton Vaughn used online handles that include Wanted by Feds and Hacker R Us.
[14:41.010 --> 14:43.610]  They were arrested by FBI agents.
[14:43.750 --> 14:56.050]  The second defendant, George Duke Cohen of the United Kingdom, used online handles that included digital crimes and 7R1D3N7, which I don't know what that spells.
[14:56.110 --> 14:57.510]  I'm not going to try and figure it out.
[14:57.750 --> 15:03.610]  They're currently serving a prison sentence in Britain for making a hoax threat targeting an airliner.
[15:03.750 --> 15:07.030]  So, okay, this person's already in prison for another hoax threat.
[15:07.730 --> 15:08.210]  Wow.
[15:08.330 --> 15:08.550]  Okay.
[15:08.730 --> 15:14.710]  The indictment alleges that Apophis Squad targeted several individuals, businesses, and institutions in the U.S.
[15:14.730 --> 15:15.250]  and the U.K.
[15:15.830 --> 15:23.550]  employing tactics such as swatting, a horrible thing, in which a false report is made to trigger the deployment of emergency response teams.
[15:23.910 --> 15:33.590]  Members made threats of bombs and school shootings that were designed to cause fear of imminent danger and did cause the closure of hundreds of schools on two continents on multiple occasions.
[15:34.170 --> 15:45.910]  According to the indictment, the conspiracy spanned the first eight months of 2018, during which members of Apophis Squad communicated various threats, sometimes using spoofed email addresses, to make it appear the threats had been sent by innocent parties,
[15:46.130 --> 15:47.190]  including the mayor of London.
[15:48.090 --> 15:49.030]  It goes on.
[15:49.130 --> 15:51.150]  All kinds of horrible things here.
[15:51.390 --> 15:53.750]  Again, the headline, two hackers chart.
[15:53.870 --> 15:55.250]  What's hacking about this?
[15:55.730 --> 15:57.970]  It's, you know, anyone can make a threat.
[15:58.290 --> 15:59.250]  I went to high school.
[15:59.450 --> 16:01.930]  We had plenty of bomb threats and they weren't hackers.
[16:02.210 --> 16:03.050]  They were just idiots.
[16:03.690 --> 16:06.910]  So, um, yeah, NBC, where I got the story from, get it straight.
[16:07.130 --> 16:08.230]  It's got nothing to do with hackers.
[16:08.390 --> 16:13.350]  These are people just making phone calls and, uh, and, and lying and causing mayhem.
[16:13.490 --> 16:14.850]  It's got nothing to do with hacking.
[16:15.090 --> 16:19.210]  Well, tying into the previous story, like sometimes there's no figuring out the why of it.
[16:19.270 --> 16:22.810]  Some people just want to break stuff or, or, you know, mess stuff up.
[16:22.910 --> 16:27.370]  And, uh, but you, you use a computer in any stage of the game and the news is going to call you a hacker.
[16:27.630 --> 16:35.610]  Now in recent days, uh, and this is a similar theme, but different, uh, a new group of hackers going by the name digital research team.
[16:35.770 --> 16:38.150]  That's a great name for a bunch of hackers, digital research team.
[16:38.290 --> 16:51.190]  They've announced the release of a wide ranging, wide ranging series of hacks and leaks affecting different government agencies across Spain and Venezuela, as well as a variety of public and private colleges slash universities in Spain and Catalonia.
[16:51.410 --> 17:04.010]  Uh, in statements, uh, made available to rogue media labs, the hackers claimed that all of their hacks were ethical, not malicious, and they would therefore not be disclosing any of the files or databases uncovered by the hacks to the general public.
[17:04.510 --> 17:15.430]  Um, instead of hackers released redacted screenshots of each and every database they managed to penetrate, tagging the affected victims with each leak to service as proof that the hacks were in fact real.
[17:15.770 --> 17:28.770]  Um, so, um, they basically what they did was they, they announced their leaks and social media and they also at the same time tagged their victims with each posting offering to teach them how their websites and servers had been hacked as well as how to patch them in the future.
[17:29.290 --> 17:33.310]  And the hackers left behind an email address with, uh, each, each leak.
[17:33.610 --> 17:35.150]  Uh, and, uh, wow.
[17:35.310 --> 17:37.010]  I mean, that's, that's kind of cool, right?
[17:37.190 --> 17:38.690]  They, they, they hacked the system.
[17:38.810 --> 17:39.830]  They explained what they did.
[17:40.150 --> 17:43.570]  Uh, but in the eyes of the law, they're treated exactly the same way.
[17:43.630 --> 17:50.130]  In fact, people like this tend to be prosecuted more than people like we just read before that people who cause actual destruction.
[17:50.350 --> 17:56.790]  This we've noticed this over the decades that the people who explain how it works, they explain the vulnerabilities that don't cause harm.
[17:57.110 --> 18:01.750]  They're punished more severely than people that actually just go in there and, and wreak havoc.
[18:02.150 --> 18:04.690]  I think you're absolutely right about that, Emmanuel.
[18:04.950 --> 18:09.450]  And, and I would imagine that you were one of them actually, as a kid, you were one of them.
[18:09.630 --> 18:11.130]  I, I, I, well, that's true.
[18:11.130 --> 18:12.250]  Remember what happened to you in the library?
[18:12.710 --> 18:13.310]  That's true.
[18:13.310 --> 18:13.530]  Yeah.
[18:13.650 --> 18:16.050]  I was, uh, I was booted from my public library.
[18:16.110 --> 18:17.030]  For doing, for doing what?
[18:17.150 --> 18:17.570]  What did you do?
[18:17.570 --> 18:26.690]  Um, I was accused of, quote, if I remember the, the exact, uh, phrase from the letter that they sent my mother, uh, maliciously vandalizing their computer system.
[18:26.810 --> 18:27.930]  And what did you actually do?
[18:28.290 --> 18:32.950]  Well, they had a new system in place that had this like direct access program that loaded up.
[18:33.090 --> 18:34.850]  This was back in the days of MS-DOS.
[18:35.030 --> 18:37.590]  So I saw this, I saw that it was loading onto a network.
[18:37.890 --> 18:46.930]  I controlled C, uh, control C out of the auto exec bat as the machine was booting, got into the DOS prompt, rebooted it, had it drop me onto the network drive.
[18:47.090 --> 19:00.930]  And then I started peering around a little bit during which time a nosy librarian was peering over my shoulder, saw me at a DOS prompt, which looks really scary to a librarian in 1993 or 1994, something like that.
[19:01.130 --> 19:04.470]  She then told me immediately to step away from the computer system.
[19:04.730 --> 19:07.510]  They had somebody reboot it because I edited the auto exec bat.
[19:07.750 --> 19:10.130]  Texas, she would have had a gun on you too when she said that.
[19:10.250 --> 19:13.050]  She might have shot first and then ask questions in Texas.
[19:13.210 --> 19:13.650]  You never know.
[19:13.790 --> 19:18.310]  But because I edited the auto exec bat, it dropped you back on the network prompt.
[19:18.470 --> 19:20.270]  It didn't load up this direct access prompt.
[19:20.530 --> 19:23.970]  I tried to explain that to them, but they didn't listen.
[19:24.450 --> 19:25.710]  Instead, they kicked me out of the library.
[19:25.710 --> 19:26.870]  They sent a letter home.
[19:27.030 --> 19:29.130]  And years later, this is a true story.
[19:30.010 --> 19:35.390]  When I worked at CIA, hey, you have to go through five days of entrance on duty training.
[19:35.570 --> 19:37.110]  And, you know, there's this long process.
[19:37.390 --> 19:38.270]  This came up with the CIA.
[19:38.510 --> 19:39.470]  I swear to God.
[19:39.590 --> 19:39.770]  Wow.
[19:40.330 --> 19:47.050]  They, you know, I had to go through a polygraph, all kinds of types of things, you know, to get TSSCI, top secret access sensitive compartmental information.
[19:47.410 --> 19:53.270]  On the fifth day, people that needed an individual security briefing were pulled away during lunch.
[19:53.470 --> 19:57.170]  And for several reasons, I had to have an individual security briefing.
[19:57.570 --> 19:59.550]  And they told me that they knew about this letter.
[19:59.550 --> 19:59.590]  Sure.
[20:00.130 --> 20:02.730]  And they showed me a copy of the letter that was sent home to me.
[20:02.770 --> 20:06.170]  And when I was 15 years old, it was, it was absolutely incredible to me.
[20:06.530 --> 20:08.610]  How did they get a copy of the letter?
[20:08.810 --> 20:11.530]  They probably went to the library and got my records during...
[20:11.530 --> 20:13.470]  How did they know to go to the library to get your records?
[20:13.550 --> 20:17.330]  Because it was the library, you know, from my hometown, where I went to school.
[20:17.430 --> 20:22.810]  Yeah, but I'm saying when the CIA is investigating somebody, they go to the local library to see if they have any letters?
[20:23.110 --> 20:24.410]  Not letters, but records.
[20:24.530 --> 20:28.790]  What books you take out, what have you been doing, any weird information about you?
[20:29.210 --> 20:32.770]  You know, have you taken out the anarchist cookbook multiple times, something like that?
[20:32.830 --> 20:39.450]  So, if I were to visit my local library, and I think I remember where it is, they would be familiar with CIA agents coming to visit them.
[20:39.550 --> 20:43.050]  Anytime somebody gets clearance in the neighborhood, they want to know what they've been checking out.
[20:43.130 --> 20:44.010]  Well, let's be clear.
[20:44.390 --> 20:47.330]  CIA agent is a term that was completely invented by the media.
[20:47.450 --> 20:48.470]  There's really no such thing.
[20:48.630 --> 20:51.810]  An agent is somebody that, you know, doesn't really exist.
[20:51.890 --> 20:53.150]  You're an asset, an operative.
[20:53.370 --> 20:58.090]  These guys don't necessarily say that they're from CIA, but they're background investigators for the federal government.
[20:58.310 --> 20:58.410]  Okay.
[20:58.730 --> 20:58.910]  Yeah.
[20:59.010 --> 21:06.090]  So, they might not know for what agency somebody's being investigated, but I'm sure plenty of people have looked into your records at your local library.
[21:06.130 --> 21:09.710]  If you're a librarian listening to us, and I know we have a number that do, let us know.
[21:09.830 --> 21:19.550]  Have you gotten federal agents or employees or whatever you want to call them coming to your library asking you to tell them what certain people have been checking out?
[21:19.650 --> 21:21.410]  I imagine there'd be some resistance to this.
[21:21.590 --> 21:22.350]  Did they have a choice?
[21:23.190 --> 21:25.410]  Well, you always have a choice, right?
[21:25.410 --> 21:33.050]  I mean, and they're not under any legal compulsion to give that information over, but these investigators make you want to feel helpful.
[21:33.210 --> 21:35.530]  I'll bet it was the same librarian that handed it over to them.
[21:35.590 --> 21:36.130]  Oh, no doubt.
[21:36.290 --> 21:37.570]  Still had a chip on their shoulder.
[21:38.110 --> 21:43.290]  Years later, I mean, I'm talking like a decade later, I went into that library and I got the stink eye from her.
[21:45.030 --> 21:45.390]  Wow.
[21:45.930 --> 21:58.510]  That's pretty funny, because around that same time, early 90s, I had a similar thing in my own local public library near where I grew up, and they had this computer that people were able to use to come in and basically type up documents.
[21:58.610 --> 22:00.370]  You could word process, you couldn't do anything else.
[22:00.790 --> 22:02.570]  You could print, but you couldn't save.
[22:02.730 --> 22:04.970]  They had locked down access to the computer's own drive.
[22:04.970 --> 22:06.130]  This wasn't even a network thing.
[22:06.470 --> 22:07.450]  And that didn't work for me.
[22:07.490 --> 22:09.730]  I had floppy disks I needed to get stuff on and off of.
[22:09.730 --> 22:13.210]  So I ended up basically using the...
[22:13.210 --> 22:22.330]  I think I went through the printer prompt of whatever Shelley had going on Windows to access the drive itself, edit auto-exec that, and reboot it so I could get to plain-ass Windows.
[22:22.590 --> 22:35.450]  And the librarian caught me doing that, and because she knew me, because I was a regular there, I was that kind of dork, she's just like, I don't think you're supposed to be doing that, but just make sure everything's put back the way you found it before you go.
[22:35.970 --> 22:39.250]  And so I did so, and kept going to that library.
[22:39.250 --> 22:39.770]  I feel bad.
[22:39.890 --> 22:41.850]  I don't think I've ever gotten in trouble at the library.
[22:42.330 --> 22:43.570]  I feel like I should have.
[22:43.710 --> 22:45.790]  And I never got to get clearance for anything after that.
[22:46.370 --> 22:47.250]  Well, it's not too late.
[22:47.330 --> 22:48.050]  You can always try.
[22:48.250 --> 22:57.630]  Anyway, I'm glad we're talking about books, because that leads perfectly into what we're going to be talking about tonight, which is an update on what's going on with The Strand, New York City's most famous bookstore.
[22:57.870 --> 23:00.750]  We have the owner of The Strand, Nancy Wyden, here with us again tonight.
[23:01.090 --> 23:01.590]  Welcome, Nancy.
[23:01.890 --> 23:02.330]  Thank you.
[23:02.330 --> 23:11.250]  And any updates on, to let people know, The Strand is being threatened with landmark status.
[23:11.410 --> 23:16.810]  Ordinarily, that might seem like a good thing, but landmark status carries with it a whole bunch of regulations.
[23:17.110 --> 23:20.750]  And to someone who runs a business, it can be crippling.
[23:20.890 --> 23:29.390]  And in the case of a bookstore, where the margins are fairly slim, this could be the difference between survival and not survival.
[23:29.610 --> 23:31.650]  I know there's a hearing coming up.
[23:31.910 --> 23:33.990]  There's been all kinds of back and forth with the city.
[23:34.450 --> 23:36.930]  Any updates that you'd like to share with us?
[23:37.590 --> 23:40.570]  Well, we have one more shot at a public hearing.
[23:40.770 --> 23:41.990]  We're still fighting the city.
[23:42.130 --> 23:43.370]  It is so frustrating.
[23:43.370 --> 23:48.230]  You can't really get appointments with the political people.
[23:48.230 --> 23:55.530]  We've had a petition, which we've gotten great support on.
[23:55.910 --> 23:59.070]  We're going to have great speakers at this hearing.
[23:59.070 --> 24:05.350]  And we hope that some of your people will join us for the second time.
[24:05.550 --> 24:11.190]  It's on Tuesday morning at 930, which is February 19th.
[24:11.190 --> 24:20.250]  It's 1 Center Street on the ninth floor, and we'll have donuts, and we'll really look forward to seeing everyone there.
[24:20.370 --> 24:21.390]  Alex will be there, too.
[24:21.550 --> 24:22.610]  We'll be speaking again.
[24:23.890 --> 24:26.010]  Yeah, and I really think we're going to...
[24:26.010 --> 24:27.650]  I mean, Nancy mentioned this petition.
[24:27.790 --> 24:31.330]  We've had thousands and thousands and thousands of signatures in support of the Strand.
[24:31.530 --> 24:33.190]  We've had meetings with the mayor's office.
[24:33.190 --> 24:35.230]  We've got a meeting with landmarks on Friday.
[24:35.650 --> 24:39.890]  And like you said, Emmanuel, ordinarily, this sounds like it would be a great honor to have your bookstore landmarks.
[24:39.890 --> 24:45.110]  You know, we've been, again, in the New York Times, the front page of the arts section.
[24:45.570 --> 24:46.210]  I think it was on...
[24:46.210 --> 24:47.990]  Yeah, and the back page as well.
[24:48.530 --> 24:50.470]  Had a really thoughtful article about this.
[24:50.570 --> 24:52.370]  You know, we mentioned it a couple of weeks ago on the radio.
[24:53.210 --> 25:05.450]  It just seems like architecturally landmarking a cultural institution is a tool that is so ill-fitted for its purpose for exactly the reasons that you described, all the reasons we've been talking about.
[25:06.210 --> 25:09.050]  Architects with whom we've been speaking, so many of them.
[25:09.050 --> 25:22.810]  And I frankly, when we were talking about this back in December, when we first had you on, Nancy, do you remember Emmanuel talking about the LPC, the Landmarks Preservation Commission, and we described how it worked and how everything had to go through them,
[25:22.890 --> 25:27.930]  and all of a sudden they become part owner of your business, part owner of your building, telling you how to do things.
[25:28.050 --> 25:32.050]  And Emmanuel described it as, it sounds sort of mafia-like.
[25:32.190 --> 25:33.130]  Do you remember that, Emmanuel?
[25:33.510 --> 25:34.950]  I don't know if I use that word, but...
[25:34.950 --> 25:35.290]  Organized crime.
[25:35.290 --> 25:35.790]  Organized crime.
[25:35.910 --> 25:36.370]  I think you said organized crime.
[25:36.370 --> 25:42.370]  I since have gotten letters from organized crime, taking offense at that, being affiliated with... regardless.
[25:42.650 --> 25:43.570]  You know, we've moved past it.
[25:44.110 --> 25:49.450]  Well, when you mentioned that, I thought, well, that's not really an apt analogy, but I'm not going to call them out on that.
[25:49.590 --> 26:00.110]  But weirdly enough, all these architects with whom we've been speaking have actually used those same exact words to describe how the Landmarks Preservation Commission operates.
[26:00.590 --> 26:07.050]  And so many of them are afraid to go on the record because they have ongoing projects and are afraid of retaliation.
[26:07.850 --> 26:08.370]  So...
[26:08.370 --> 26:09.130]  Apparently you're not.
[26:09.390 --> 26:10.490]  We certainly are not.
[26:10.550 --> 26:11.410]  We're not afraid of a fight.
[26:11.490 --> 26:12.310]  We're not going to back down.
[26:12.450 --> 26:13.190]  We haven't backed down.
[26:13.390 --> 26:18.510]  Nancy here is running a third-generation business, the greatest bookstore in New York.
[26:18.710 --> 26:22.830]  It's 91 years old, and it's not going to go anywhere.
[26:22.830 --> 26:25.110]  We're going to do everything that we can to make sure it survives.
[26:25.330 --> 26:26.550]  Now, here's the big issue.
[26:27.650 --> 26:34.690]  These additional costs, the preservationists and Landmarks can't acknowledge that they are real and that they exist.
[26:34.810 --> 26:42.170]  But everybody with whom we've been speaking has acknowledged that things can cost two, three, sometimes four times what it would ordinarily cost.
[26:42.330 --> 26:54.810]  That's really crippling to a bookstore where the economics are already crushing in the era of online retailers like Amazon, not to mention the $3 billion that's coming in to Amazon, et cetera, that Nancy wrote a really great CNN op-ed about.
[26:55.770 --> 26:57.270]  Those economics can be crushing.
[26:57.490 --> 26:58.450]  And one or two...
[26:58.450 --> 27:01.170]  There's a reason why there's so few bookstores around.
[27:01.430 --> 27:02.830]  The margins are very low.
[27:03.050 --> 27:10.690]  And you know, we have unionized employees, 238, most of which are part of the union, and they have good health care benefits.
[27:10.990 --> 27:12.950]  They're all full-time employees.
[27:13.310 --> 27:15.810]  And you know, in a city, this can be very costly.
[27:16.050 --> 27:22.150]  Coupling that with inexpensive books, which is something that my family... it's my family's legacy to do that.
[27:22.290 --> 27:23.670]  And it's three generations.
[27:23.670 --> 27:25.670]  My grandpa worked there all of his life.
[27:25.930 --> 27:27.890]  My dad, who just died in January.
[27:28.170 --> 27:29.850]  And I've worked there all my life, too.
[27:30.150 --> 27:35.190]  My dad saved up his money to buy the building so that the Strand can continue.
[27:35.790 --> 27:37.710]  And then the city just comes in.
[27:37.830 --> 27:38.810]  They sent us some letters.
[27:39.110 --> 27:43.790]  And all of a sudden, they just... they're bringing in their machinery and their bureaucracy.
[27:44.010 --> 27:52.830]  And they're going to be an owner and make decisions about what kind of signage I can put in front, about how the facade should look.
[27:53.170 --> 27:58.690]  And I get to deal with staff people and bureaucrats slowing things down.
[27:58.930 --> 28:01.110]  And it feels like it's no stopping them.
[28:01.210 --> 28:02.490]  But we're fighting.
[28:02.490 --> 28:06.150]  But when you say that, they're going to have a say about the facade.
[28:06.350 --> 28:13.970]  I'm thinking of the Strand and their well-known outdoor book section, where the books are just lined up on the street.
[28:14.330 --> 28:18.190]  Is that something that they would take exception to and say, yeah, this isn't appropriate.
[28:18.190 --> 28:19.150]  You can't do that anymore?
[28:19.450 --> 28:22.430]  Well, they're... they would be very interested in the awning.
[28:22.630 --> 28:26.410]  And they would be very interested in lighting and windows outside.
[28:26.930 --> 28:35.970]  And if there's even a hole in the side of the building, they would... we would have a discussion about what kind of mortar to use in it.
[28:36.170 --> 28:42.310]  And they have even said that I've been a great shepherd of the building, that the building's in wonderful shape because of me.
[28:42.510 --> 28:44.970]  But you know, this all started because of politics.
[28:45.210 --> 28:55.710]  This started for a $250 million tech hub that was being put up on 14th Street.
[28:56.170 --> 29:00.590]  And de Blasio was pushing it.
[29:00.910 --> 29:04.770]  And Councilwoman Rivera was supposed to support the village against it.
[29:04.890 --> 29:09.130]  She caved in and supported this tech center.
[29:09.370 --> 29:12.490]  The village very upset about this.
[29:12.650 --> 29:15.570]  They wanted to make all of the village historical district.
[29:16.030 --> 29:20.370]  Landmark said there's not enough fabric in the village to do that.
[29:21.390 --> 29:28.390]  Cherry picked seven buildings, grouped them together as a early garment district story.
[29:28.390 --> 29:32.030]  And the Strand got sucked in as part of this story.
[29:32.230 --> 29:39.850]  I had to explain to them that, yes, we had the Strand... the Strand building once had a clothing store with garment workers in there.
[29:40.010 --> 29:40.770]  But you know what?
[29:40.890 --> 29:45.610]  The Strand has been there longer than any of this garment people.
[29:45.870 --> 29:52.230]  So then the story changed to we're saving the Strand as a cultural landmark.
[29:52.690 --> 29:56.770]  And as Alex pointed out, they have no jurisdiction to do that.
[29:57.470 --> 29:58.050]  That's right.
[29:58.190 --> 29:59.790]  Now, think about cultural landmarks.
[29:59.890 --> 30:02.350]  Think about, you know, what they did recently with the Stonewall.
[30:02.570 --> 30:09.850]  The Stonewall Inn, where the, you know, basically the germ of the gay rights movement started there with the Stonewall riots.
[30:09.990 --> 30:13.410]  When the NYPD came into the Stonewall, started busting the place up.
[30:13.610 --> 30:17.290]  And actually that, if you look at it historically, that actually had to do with the mafia too.
[30:17.550 --> 30:20.790]  Because the cops weren't being paid off to leave the gay bars alone.
[30:21.030 --> 30:23.630]  But that was the germ that started the gay rights movement.
[30:23.850 --> 30:27.590]  The Stonewall is a cultural landmark in New York City.
[30:27.770 --> 30:31.830]  It's a very unassuming, you know, dingy looking pub right off 7th Avenue.
[30:32.110 --> 30:38.870]  I mean, and culturally landmarking that doesn't mean it always has to be a gay bar, or a bar, or anything like that.
[30:38.990 --> 30:41.650]  It has nothing to do with saving the business whatsoever.
[30:41.910 --> 30:42.030]  Right.
[30:42.170 --> 30:43.410]  But it's still a cultural landmark.
[30:43.770 --> 30:48.850]  It's a landmark though, because it's something interesting happened there in the past.
[30:49.030 --> 30:51.130]  It's historical because of what happened there in the past.
[30:51.270 --> 30:59.390]  The Strand, however, is completely different as a cultural landmark because it's significant because it exists right now.
[30:59.550 --> 31:03.910]  It's a 91-year-old bookstore when bookstores do not exist anymore.
[31:03.910 --> 31:10.070]  It's a center of culture, learning, dialogue, has been for decades and decades and decades.
[31:10.310 --> 31:26.830]  And instead of architecturally landmarking this and strangling the business with additional bureaucracy, regulation, and nonsense and costs that we don't need, what the city should be doing is exactly what we have been asking them to do for months now and months,
[31:26.970 --> 31:34.410]  which is to come to the table, show us some way that we can all collaborate to ensure the continued existence of the Strand.
[31:34.650 --> 31:39.810]  That's how you preserve a cultural landmark that is a living, breathing institution like the Strand.
[31:39.990 --> 31:42.690]  You don't architecturally stranglehold it.
[31:43.010 --> 31:48.950]  Yeah, I think my family has shown its devotion and love to the city.
[31:48.950 --> 31:56.770]  And I think that the city should return and realize the dedication.
[31:57.790 --> 32:02.290]  And instead, you know, there's the story with Jeff Bezos that Alex pointed out.
[32:02.450 --> 32:10.110]  They're giving the richest man in the world, my direct competitor, $3 billion in subsidies, although that's up in the air right now.
[32:10.110 --> 32:11.630]  Yeah, we're going to get into that in just a moment.
[32:11.630 --> 32:20.870]  First, I want to remind people that we are in the middle of a fundraiser, and we have a special Strand package, thanks to the generosity of Nancy and the people at the Strand.
[32:21.650 --> 32:25.690]  We have for a pledge of $100, the Strand package.
[32:26.130 --> 32:27.770]  What is the Strand package?
[32:28.510 --> 32:29.290]  Good question.
[32:29.610 --> 32:34.390]  Well, it consists of an autographed copy of Cory Doctorow's book, Radicalized.
[32:34.590 --> 32:35.230]  You've never heard of it?
[32:35.330 --> 32:36.490]  That's because it's not out yet.
[32:36.490 --> 32:38.290]  It hasn't been released, but it's about to be.
[32:38.390 --> 32:40.890]  And he is going to autograph books for our listeners.
[32:41.530 --> 32:44.990]  And you will get a copy of one of those books for a pledge of $100.
[32:45.350 --> 32:56.390]  Now, Radicalized is a novel comprised of four science fiction novellas connected by social, technological, economic visions of today and what America could be in the near future.
[32:56.670 --> 32:57.530]  But that's not all.
[32:57.650 --> 33:03.250]  You'll also get an iconic canvas tote bag from the Strand, the undisputed king of the city's independent bookstores.
[33:03.750 --> 33:04.730]  Those aren't my words.
[33:04.830 --> 33:06.110]  Those are the New York Times' words.
[33:06.930 --> 33:13.950]  Also, you'll get an assortment of Strand memorabilia, including all kinds of buttons and stickers, postcards.
[33:14.190 --> 33:15.190]  Is this a typo?
[33:15.310 --> 33:15.750]  Socks?
[33:16.010 --> 33:16.610]  Socks, yes.
[33:16.610 --> 33:17.330]  You have socks?
[33:17.710 --> 33:20.010]  You have to wear comfy socks while you're reading a good book.
[33:20.010 --> 33:20.970]  Okay, all right.
[33:21.230 --> 33:23.290]  So you'll get all that for a pledge of $100.
[33:23.650 --> 33:26.770]  516-620-3602 is the phone number to call.
[33:27.490 --> 33:33.310]  And your call also is a voice of support for this whole thing that we're talking about.
[33:33.650 --> 33:40.370]  Bookstores are something that have always been priceless to us at $2600 because we're a magazine publisher.
[33:40.710 --> 33:45.730]  And getting into bookstores is essential to reach people, to get people to read.
[33:45.930 --> 33:53.070]  And what Nancy was saying before about the bookstores disappearing because of the low margins is so true.
[33:53.290 --> 33:59.390]  We saw so many bookstores, so many independent bookstores go out of business when the chains moved in, when Borders, when Barnes & Noble came in.
[33:59.690 --> 34:02.090]  And now those chains are having trouble.
[34:02.090 --> 34:05.850]  Now, they're going out of business because of the low profit margin.
[34:06.310 --> 34:08.910]  And the bookstores that were there, they're gone.
[34:09.070 --> 34:10.650]  Now the chains are disappearing.
[34:10.830 --> 34:12.190]  What does that leave us with?
[34:12.290 --> 34:22.170]  Well, we have at least one huge bookstore in lower Manhattan that is still there and wants to remain there for another 91 years.
[34:22.990 --> 34:29.070]  And the community support, the community voice is what matters here.
[34:29.070 --> 34:42.850]  Now, here at the radio station, we are kind of in a parallel world because we are existing as one of the remaining radio stations that actually has live programs like we do here at WBAI.
[34:42.970 --> 34:49.790]  So your call to 516-620-3602, pledging $100 for the Strand package, is a show of support for all of this.
[34:49.890 --> 34:51.370]  We can have these kinds of conversations.
[34:52.390 --> 35:00.810]  You won't really be able to talk about things like this because, well, you know, sponsors, maybe Amazon is sponsoring something on a commercial radio station.
[35:01.010 --> 35:05.990]  You won't be able to have the conversation we're about to have about Amazon on an outlet like that.
[35:06.330 --> 35:18.390]  And there were so many examples on this particular radio station that you can point to of instances where we talk about things that are a bit controversial, a bit against the grain.
[35:18.870 --> 35:27.910]  If you support that, if you've gotten anything out of this conversation or the multitude that have aired in past weeks and years, please give a call.
[35:28.030 --> 35:30.750]  516-620-3602.
[35:30.890 --> 35:31.570]  That's our phone number.
[35:31.770 --> 35:33.650]  Ask for the Strand package for a pledge of $100.
[35:33.950 --> 35:36.110]  You'll get the Cory Doctorow autographed book.
[35:36.210 --> 35:37.810]  You'll get the canvas tote bag.
[35:38.030 --> 35:42.450]  You'll get Strand socks, Strand buttons, Strand stickers, Strand postcards.
[35:43.090 --> 35:45.790]  And this works even if you're not in New York City.
[35:45.830 --> 35:50.750]  If you've never been to the Strand, you will feel like you have been with this package.
[35:50.890 --> 35:53.050]  And if you have been to the Strand, what are you waiting for?
[35:53.230 --> 35:54.470]  You know how valuable this is.
[35:54.890 --> 35:56.990]  516-620-3602.
[35:57.150 --> 36:02.510]  Yeah, bookstores in general have always been something very important in the hacker community and all the time I've been involved with it.
[36:02.590 --> 36:13.430]  So many of the 2600 meetings all over the world have taken place in bookstores because it's a place where you could go, where you could share knowledge, where you could browse things on the shelves and meet up with like-minded nerds of all stripes.
[36:13.670 --> 36:16.670]  We used to always go to Tower Books after the 2600 meetings.
[36:16.830 --> 36:19.590]  And we'd hang out there for hours reading magazines and books.
[36:19.990 --> 36:20.690]  You remember that?
[36:20.810 --> 36:24.230]  Remember we used to go to bookstores and there were so many of them.
[36:24.330 --> 36:26.250]  I remember we used to go to Tower Books and that's gone now.
[36:26.330 --> 36:27.650]  We used to go to St. Mark's Books sometimes.
[36:27.670 --> 36:28.470]  That's gone now.
[36:28.910 --> 36:35.930]  We've got, you know, one damn big independent family-owned bookstore left in the city and it's the Strand and it's under threat.
[36:36.150 --> 36:38.770]  So, you know, this is very important.
[36:38.790 --> 36:55.510]  I would encourage any listeners who are new to this story to go into our archives on 2600.com slash off the hook and find the episode that we had Nancy on previously, which was November 28th of last year and the following episode from December 5th, where we talk about the hearing that had happened at that time.
[36:56.230 --> 37:02.730]  And yeah, check that out because this is an important story and it's worth keeping an eye on and the Strand is worth keeping around.
[37:02.930 --> 37:04.190]  And so is this station.
[37:04.370 --> 37:15.630]  So by calling 516-620-3602 or going to give to WBAI.org, you can pledge $100 for the Strand package with all this awesome stuff in it, an autographed copy of Cory Doctorow's book.
[37:15.770 --> 37:18.690]  Cory Doctorow, excellent author, friend of the show, friend of hope.
[37:19.210 --> 37:25.710]  You've got the canvas tote bag, which everyone loves and all that, all the Strand goodies, the socks and the postcards and the buttons and the stickers.
[37:26.390 --> 37:30.450]  If you don't want to pledge $100 or if you can't, any amount helps.
[37:30.450 --> 37:38.610]  If you call 516-620-3602 or go to give to WBAI.org and donate anything you want to keep the station on the air.
[37:38.790 --> 37:40.710]  Tell them Off the Hook is your favorite show, we hope.
[37:41.070 --> 37:45.350]  And do what you can to become part of keeping the lights on around here.
[37:45.410 --> 37:53.490]  And you know, if you want to spend more though, if you know people that read, that appreciate bookstores, no matter where they are, you can get several of these.
[37:53.830 --> 37:56.370]  There's nothing stopping you from doing that except if we run out.
[37:56.730 --> 38:00.230]  516-620-3602, the Strand package, it's really awesome.
[38:00.330 --> 38:01.610]  We've never offered anything like that before.
[38:02.010 --> 38:09.550]  I mentioned, you know, we talk about controversial things and we tackle it's open to scrutiny as well.
[38:09.710 --> 38:10.810]  And here's an example of that.
[38:10.930 --> 38:13.430]  A listener wrote in to ask this question.
[38:13.590 --> 38:18.070]  I'm puzzled why Alex is permitted to use airtime to lobby against landmark status for the Strand.
[38:18.370 --> 38:20.010]  He is paid to represent their interests.
[38:20.190 --> 38:23.070]  I am also skeptical of the Strand's cause and Alex's arguments.
[38:23.310 --> 38:24.050]  Thin margins?
[38:24.270 --> 38:26.030]  They pay no rent and they're always busy.
[38:26.210 --> 38:27.450]  How thin could the margins be?
[38:27.710 --> 38:31.210]  More importantly, is there any evidence that the existence of the Strand is threatened?
[38:31.410 --> 38:35.690]  Why does Emmanuel allow Alex to make these arguments on the air unchallenged or unquestioned?
[38:35.690 --> 38:42.230]  Well, you can't ask that question anymore because we just challenged him and questioned him and I allow people to speak when they have something to say.
[38:42.770 --> 38:44.930]  And Alex and Nancy, would you like to address these points?
[38:45.990 --> 38:47.470]  I would absolutely love it.
[38:47.570 --> 38:49.690]  And I love it when people call in and challenge me.
[38:49.790 --> 38:53.230]  And in fact, there's a lot of people that call in and challenge my views all the time here.
[38:53.490 --> 38:55.810]  So sometimes right in this room, sometimes right in this room.
[38:55.930 --> 38:56.270]  Absolutely.
[38:56.550 --> 38:59.170]  And sometimes your views are challenged every once in a while.
[38:59.230 --> 38:59.550]  Absolutely.
[38:59.750 --> 39:00.250]  Every once in a while.
[39:00.430 --> 39:03.410]  To go to the listener's point, though, and I think it's a fair question.
[39:03.570 --> 39:11.970]  Okay, I'll put it that I'll put The fact that I'm representing Nancy and the Strand has nothing to do with the validity of the actual claim itself.
[39:12.170 --> 39:13.210]  I mean, this is a real issue.
[39:13.450 --> 39:18.210]  And what we're talking about, what keeps coming up time and time again here, is the word independent.
[39:18.470 --> 39:20.950]  This is an independent bookstore, and we're talking about independence.
[39:21.570 --> 39:23.910]  WBAI is an independent station.
[39:24.070 --> 39:27.270]  We don't kowtow to big advertisers.
[39:27.490 --> 39:29.030]  Neither does the Strand, okay?
[39:29.030 --> 39:30.470]  This has been around for a long time.
[39:30.570 --> 39:34.950]  This has been a bookstore that has been born out of the labor.
[39:35.290 --> 39:43.150]  Of thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people who have worked in that bookstore for nearly 100 years, for almost a century.
[39:43.410 --> 39:44.610]  Not the same people.
[39:44.770 --> 39:46.230]  Not the same people, but yes.
[39:46.390 --> 39:46.910]  That would be something.
[39:47.050 --> 39:48.490]  Generations and generations of people.
[39:48.610 --> 39:56.290]  I mean, I'm sure that, honestly, there's lots of dead souls that have worked at the Strand and made it what it is, which is this center of learning, this center of dialogue.
[39:56.290 --> 40:07.570]  The fact that we have signed copies of Cory Doctorow's book should demonstrate why this is an important place for dialogue, for debate, for learning, and why it's relevant to our particular set of listeners.
[40:08.030 --> 40:14.370]  Cory Doctorow is coming to the Strand at the end of March to give a talk about radicalized in this particular book.
[40:14.890 --> 40:19.050]  And the Strand, you have to look at it in the sense of it's a platform.
[40:19.490 --> 40:24.530]  It's a place where ideas clash, where people get together, and it always has been.
[40:24.710 --> 40:29.350]  We've talked about meetings in bookstores, hanging out in bookstores after the 2,600 meetings.
[40:29.490 --> 40:33.190]  This is why it's so important, because it's a center of learning.
[40:33.630 --> 40:40.310]  We don't have wonderful, great libraries all over the place that are completely accessible after hours like the Strand is.
[40:40.310 --> 40:48.070]  People go and hang out there, and read books, and, you know, wander around the stacks, and they learn, they talk.
[40:48.310 --> 40:52.910]  It's just, it's a fantastic place where ideas and dialogue exist.
[40:53.070 --> 40:56.610]  It's a place that deserves to be preserved culturally.
[40:57.110 --> 41:02.530]  And when it's under threat, it's not just a threat to an independent bookstore that Nancy's running.
[41:02.690 --> 41:10.050]  It's a threat to something that has cultural landmark status to many people in New York, and people all around the world.
[41:10.310 --> 41:12.290]  We're talking about these tote bags that we're giving away.
[41:12.470 --> 41:21.930]  For all of our international listeners, you know, if people see you walking around London, Munich, Berlin, and you've got your Strand tote bag on there, it says something about you.
[41:22.010 --> 41:23.510]  It says you're an independent thinker.
[41:23.590 --> 41:25.650]  It says that you support independent places.
[41:26.030 --> 41:27.490]  That's what we're asking you to do.
[41:27.490 --> 41:36.270]  The fact that I'm a lawyer that works on this particular case, like I said, has absolutely nothing to do with the actual validity of the claim.
[41:36.510 --> 41:40.510]  And we've already really talked about the cost issues that are associated with this.
[41:40.650 --> 41:47.350]  And to bring it back to a real and personal level when it comes to New Yorkers and our local listeners here, this has to do with unions.
[41:47.570 --> 41:54.550]  This has to do with jobs, local businesses, and the survivability of small businesses that have been around for a really long time.
[41:54.550 --> 42:05.350]  That's why it's damn important for our listeners to be listening to this, speaking up about it, and why we hope you show up on February 19th at 1 Center Street at 9 a.m.
[42:05.430 --> 42:11.670]  in the morning at the 9th floor and support us and support independents and independent bookstores like the Strand.
[42:11.870 --> 42:13.030]  And there are donuts, too.
[42:13.770 --> 42:14.630]  Just one thing.
[42:14.770 --> 42:16.950]  This is a real grassroots movement.
[42:16.950 --> 42:25.810]  I mean, it's not, you know, people suggested I hire big media companies and big, you know, law firms with big legal teams.
[42:26.070 --> 42:28.670]  And, of course, that's, you know, that's not how we operate.
[42:28.810 --> 42:34.070]  So I'm so fortunate to have, you know, the brilliant mind of Alex behind us.
[42:34.230 --> 42:40.970]  Now, the issue that this listener brought up, and I imagine other people might ask the same question, that Strand is doing well.
[42:41.150 --> 42:42.130]  It's always crowded with people.
[42:42.350 --> 42:43.930]  How can you say you have thin margins?
[42:43.930 --> 42:47.090]  Do you want to address that particular perception?
[42:47.350 --> 42:50.110]  Well, we do have the advantage of having cheap rent.
[42:50.230 --> 42:53.570]  And that's only because my dad saved up all of his life to buy the building.
[42:53.910 --> 42:56.090]  So that's a big...
[42:56.090 --> 43:00.430]  And we're, you know, we are, you know, we are crowded, but we're...
[43:00.430 --> 43:02.390]  Look at how inexpensive the books are.
[43:02.650 --> 43:05.010]  Dollar, two dollar books out on the carts outside.
[43:05.390 --> 43:06.950]  Five dollar fiction books.
[43:07.110 --> 43:08.590]  I mean, you figure it out.
[43:08.750 --> 43:10.390]  You look at how many employees we're supporting.
[43:10.390 --> 43:17.590]  And not to mention, and, you know, Nancy is sometimes humble, but she pays her employees living wages.
[43:17.850 --> 43:18.910]  These are unionized employees.
[43:19.050 --> 43:19.610]  They get health care.
[43:19.710 --> 43:20.330]  They get benefits.
[43:20.430 --> 43:23.870]  They can live in New York City and work at a bookstore.
[43:24.250 --> 43:27.710]  It's very, very tough for anybody to make a living in New York City.
[43:27.930 --> 43:29.570]  They do it because they work at the Strand.
[43:30.130 --> 43:35.090]  If we are saddled with these extra costs, it may be difficult to exist.
[43:35.090 --> 43:37.650]  It may grind the Strand into a halt.
[43:37.810 --> 43:39.830]  It may become economically infeasible.
[43:40.070 --> 43:56.730]  You know, and at the very least, the Strand, if it's saddled with these types of regulations and all these additional costs, things are going to cost three times, four times as much, plus all the bureaucracy and the regulation, we may just not be able to have as many employees on the payroll as there are right now.
[43:56.850 --> 44:12.090]  And that's not fair to the people that work at the Strand that have given their years of their life to making this bookstore what it is, their money should not be going to pay preservationist expediters that are needed to get your applications to the top of the pile.
[44:12.290 --> 44:13.670]  Their money shouldn't be going to lawyers.
[44:13.670 --> 44:15.050]  I'll be the first one to say that.
[44:15.130 --> 44:22.870]  It shouldn't be going to architects to do three or four different types of schematics to make sure that something can be approved by the Landmarks Preservation Commission.
[44:23.010 --> 44:29.110]  It should be going in their pockets because they're working damn hard to make sure that this bookstore is what it is.
[44:29.810 --> 44:32.890]  Now, you know, I think this can be settled in a couple of points.
[44:33.090 --> 44:34.390]  You're not going to tear the building down.
[44:34.570 --> 44:35.530]  You're not going to torch it.
[44:35.710 --> 44:40.510]  You're not going to put aluminum siding on and destroy the look of it enough.
[44:40.870 --> 44:43.810]  You know, I think that that's pretty much... and you're going to keep the Strand running.
[44:44.270 --> 44:45.930]  That's really all people should care about.
[44:46.090 --> 44:46.690]  Well, you're right.
[44:46.790 --> 44:50.010]  This building is in no danger of changing, of being raised.
[44:51.090 --> 44:53.570]  As we've mentioned before, the building is already overbuilt.
[44:53.570 --> 45:05.290]  So let's say that, you know, in some ridiculous turn of heart, Nancy decides to go and sell the building to a commercial real estate developer, and they want to erect a glass facade, you know, like they're doing all over Manhattan.
[45:05.310 --> 45:08.370]  If they tore this building down, they could only build it up to half the size.
[45:08.590 --> 45:12.090]  So it's economically infeasible for somebody to do that anyhow.
[45:12.410 --> 45:16.110]  More to the point, though, that's not why Nancy's fighting this.
[45:16.170 --> 45:22.470]  She's fighting this because the building was purchased by her family to make sure that that bookstore could survive.
[45:23.330 --> 45:24.850]  That's why this fight is important.
[45:25.070 --> 45:28.390]  That's why people need to support the Strand and show up at the public hearing.
[45:28.850 --> 45:32.070]  Once again, our phone number, 516-620-3602.
[45:32.170 --> 45:45.190]  You can support us at the radio station by getting the Strand package, getting Cory Doctorow's new autographed book, a Strand bag filled with all kinds of goodies from the Strand, and a real bit of history here.
[45:45.190 --> 45:52.150]  But I want to talk about the, quote unquote, competitor that is threatening to rise in Queens.
[45:52.310 --> 46:00.230]  Now, news broke last week that Amazon was reconsidering its move to New York City after facing opposition from residents and local officials.
[46:00.630 --> 46:08.650]  But, you know, I saw an interesting story about this poll that was released yesterday that shows a majority of New York voters actually support the deal.
[46:09.190 --> 46:11.670]  56% of voters in the state back the project.
[46:12.190 --> 46:13.770]  Only 36% disapprove.
[46:14.570 --> 46:14.930]  Wow.
[46:15.590 --> 46:16.650]  What do you guys make of that?
[46:17.210 --> 46:22.190]  Well, it's interesting because the Amazon has been working PR full force on this.
[46:22.350 --> 46:32.610]  As a resident of Queens, I've been getting so much junk mail from them in the form of big cardboard things that say, oh, we're going to be your cool new neighbors, and we're going to do so much for Queens and for New York, and all this stuff, and lots of happy,
[46:32.690 --> 46:33.690]  smiley stock photos on it.
[46:33.690 --> 46:34.690]  They've emailed everybody in Queens?
[46:34.770 --> 46:34.890]  Nope.
[46:35.050 --> 46:35.430]  Snail mail.
[46:36.370 --> 46:36.950]  Snail mail.
[46:37.130 --> 46:37.890]  Everybody in Queens.
[46:38.030 --> 46:38.630]  I guess.
[46:38.750 --> 46:41.550]  I mean, they've mailed me, and I'm one of the people in Queens.
[46:41.550 --> 46:50.670]  So that's going on, and they've got one of the biggest companies imaginable turning the full force of their PRs.
[46:50.690 --> 46:51.010]  I'm trying to understand this.
[46:51.450 --> 46:53.550]  $3 billion in tax incentives, right?
[46:53.630 --> 46:55.070]  That's a giveaway to them.
[46:55.710 --> 47:00.790]  Most of the jobs that they're going to be giving out aren't to local people in New York anyway.
[47:01.810 --> 47:03.350]  Who is it who's for this?
[47:03.350 --> 47:05.790]  Because everybody I've talked to has serious questions about it.
[47:05.850 --> 47:07.790]  It wasn't discussed publicly.
[47:08.610 --> 47:14.270]  At least maybe ask people in a referendum or something, do you really want this now that you know the facts?
[47:14.270 --> 47:15.890]  Because nobody knew the facts before.
[47:16.090 --> 47:22.990]  But to see a poll like this, where it seems like the vast majority of people want this, I have to doubt the validity of this.
[47:23.050 --> 47:23.570]  I really do.
[47:23.910 --> 47:24.550]  What was it?
[47:24.610 --> 47:25.430]  56%?
[47:25.530 --> 47:26.270]  That's what they say.
[47:26.370 --> 47:26.890]  That's what they claim.
[47:27.070 --> 47:30.990]  Well, you have to remember that 73% of all statistics like that are made up on the spot.
[47:31.090 --> 47:32.030]  I'm sure they are.
[47:32.030 --> 47:32.870]  I'm sure they are.
[47:33.370 --> 47:41.230]  In any event, I haven't spoken to anybody that's really been gung-ho behind this deal or even supports it moderately.
[47:41.490 --> 47:45.110]  So I don't know what 56% of the population they're polling for this.
[47:45.370 --> 47:51.350]  But like Mr. Firefly, to my left, my esteemed colleague from Queens, I live in Manhattan.
[47:51.350 --> 47:53.050]  I've been getting the same junk mail.
[47:53.350 --> 47:55.630]  And all my neighbors have been getting the same junk mail.
[47:55.770 --> 47:57.910]  And you see it all over the streets as well.
[47:57.990 --> 48:00.870]  I mean, it's been a nonstop blitz.
[48:01.010 --> 48:01.510]  I have an idea.
[48:01.510 --> 48:05.090]  Why doesn't the Strand snail mail everybody in the city?
[48:05.550 --> 48:07.790]  And then all these people would support you, right?
[48:07.930 --> 48:09.930]  I mean, what could be stopping you from doing that?
[48:10.070 --> 48:14.310]  Oh, well, I think it might be a little issue that has to do with cost, perhaps.
[48:15.070 --> 48:16.010]  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[48:16.170 --> 48:16.390]  You're right.
[48:16.390 --> 48:16.630]  Okay.
[48:16.830 --> 48:17.250]  Good point.
[48:17.570 --> 48:18.170]  There's that.
[48:18.350 --> 48:23.390]  You know, if we had perhaps a $3 billion tax credit, maybe we could do something like that, Nancy.
[48:23.510 --> 48:25.370]  Let's talk to the mayor about that next week.
[48:25.510 --> 48:26.130]  How about that?
[48:26.130 --> 48:31.450]  What kind of effect does something like this have on an independent bookstore, a thing like Amazon?
[48:31.690 --> 48:33.710]  They're not, you know, it's not a fulfillment center.
[48:33.710 --> 48:34.750]  It's not a bookstore.
[48:35.110 --> 48:36.670]  It's, I don't know what exactly they're doing.
[48:36.850 --> 48:39.170]  It's some kind of office environment.
[48:39.790 --> 48:42.670]  But they are being given everything.
[48:42.950 --> 48:45.850]  And the people aren't being consulted about it.
[48:46.110 --> 48:47.970]  I mean, it's their second headquarters.
[48:48.270 --> 48:54.550]  But, you know, any money that you give to this, you know, giant corporation is funding bookstores.
[48:54.790 --> 49:06.870]  They're, you know, they're breaking out in bricks and mortars stores in both as a bookstore and then this four-star stores, which is 40% books.
[49:06.870 --> 49:10.610]  And so they're able to just expand on relentlessly.
[49:12.090 --> 49:15.110]  Yeah, it makes it easier for them to exist.
[49:15.350 --> 49:20.410]  At the same time, the city of New York is making it more difficult for brick and mortar stores to exist.
[49:20.590 --> 49:30.050]  So there just seems like a real disconnect here in terms of the interests of the people of the city of New York being really represented.
[49:30.290 --> 49:31.470]  What matters to them?
[49:31.710 --> 49:34.270]  Does the Strand matter to them or does Amazon matter to them?
[49:34.270 --> 49:38.110]  Because there was a local CBS poll right after our second public hearing.
[49:38.830 --> 49:40.850]  And, you know, they blasted it out.
[49:41.090 --> 49:44.550]  And the poll had asked, you know, should the Strand mark be...
[49:44.550 --> 49:45.630]  I'm sorry, should the Strand mark...
[49:45.630 --> 49:47.170]  Should the Strand be landmarked?
[49:47.890 --> 50:02.430]  And I still believe at this point today, and we can tweet this out later on tonight, to that poll, 82% of respondents in that poll, and this is not a made-up statistic, were opposed to landmarking the Strand.
[50:02.650 --> 50:04.170]  But that was given some context.
[50:04.330 --> 50:07.250]  They didn't just ask that question without explaining why it would be a bad idea.
[50:07.390 --> 50:07.530]  That's right.
[50:07.590 --> 50:10.930]  There was a video and there was a news story about it, because when you hear the question itself...
[50:10.930 --> 50:13.870]  And that's an interesting point, because initially, people were for it.
[50:13.990 --> 50:26.250]  But then when the actual story came out and there was video of our public hearing, together with Nancy's remarks and testimony, mine, and a whole bunch of wonderful authors that spoke on behalf of the Strand, it just changed dramatically.
[50:26.250 --> 50:35.370]  Now, it's still very much around 82% opposed to landmarking the Strand, but LPC, Landmarks Preservation Commission, has yet to be moved.
[50:35.590 --> 50:38.750]  They have nothing propelling them forward but institutional inertia.
[50:39.470 --> 50:41.010]  They don't have the public support.
[50:41.010 --> 50:42.610]  I don't think they have political support.
[50:42.750 --> 50:44.330]  The politicians are inaccessible.
[50:44.490 --> 50:45.950]  Keep passing the buck.
[50:46.090 --> 50:53.930]  We've been reaching out to the Speaker of the City Council with no response whatsoever, both in his capacity as Speaker and Acting Public Advocate.
[50:53.930 --> 51:01.630]  And not to mention, one week after our hearing is the New York City Special Election for Public Advocate.
[51:01.830 --> 51:12.910]  And the public advocates have taken a very strong interest in this particular dispute because they know it's about the people of the city of New York and what they expect from their institutions.
[51:13.210 --> 51:17.850]  And I believe that the people of the city demand a hell of a lot more than they're getting right now.
[51:17.850 --> 51:30.530]  Well, it's interesting because, you know, looking at this Amazon story, I realize how people are able to kind of finagle the what people want argument.
[51:30.630 --> 51:43.130]  Because I see a quote here from the president of the Queensbridge Houses Tenant Association who says, I'm not going to allow anybody to come into my community and disrupt and deny them the opportunity for a better life.
[51:43.290 --> 51:43.970]  You know why?
[51:44.070 --> 51:44.950]  Because we have a voice.
[51:44.950 --> 51:45.690]  We're at the table.
[51:46.330 --> 52:00.050]  And, you know, it sounds very similar to what you're saying, except they're using those words for a completely different purpose, to support this massive corporation that's going to move in, open a huge complex in Queens, completely change the character of that neighborhood,
[52:00.090 --> 52:06.010]  but also have an effect on housing costs throughout the entire five boroughs and beyond.
[52:07.530 --> 52:13.330]  It's, you know, you must see media manipulation in your battle as well.
[52:13.790 --> 52:19.070]  And I just wonder, you know, is this something that will at some point be used against you?
[52:19.410 --> 52:20.950]  You know, it's possible.
[52:21.250 --> 52:25.530]  Everything can be taken out of context and wielded for a completely different purpose.
[52:25.790 --> 52:35.190]  You know, it reminds me of the poem, If by Rudyard Kipling, where there's that line, you know, if you can bear to hear the truth, you've spoken twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools.
[52:35.410 --> 52:37.090]  That's exactly what that quote sounds like.
[52:37.190 --> 52:39.230]  More to the point, though, as I think what Rob T.
[52:39.370 --> 52:52.550]  Firefly had mentioned several weeks ago, when members, I think, of the City Council of Seattle had come out and spoken publicly and stated on the record that letting Amazon in was a complete disaster, changed the character of the city.
[52:52.710 --> 52:54.750]  And I'll hand it over to Kyle, because I think he might have something to say.
[52:54.810 --> 52:57.850]  Yeah, Kyle, you're from Seattle, so maybe you could tell us something about this.
[52:58.150 --> 53:01.150]  No, I just want to add, they didn't just come out and say something.
[53:01.150 --> 53:12.150]  They actually came out here to New York to help share their experience and how it's changed the city, per se.
[53:12.350 --> 53:32.250]  And I would just add that we have to remember that this is a direct competitor for the traditional business model that Nancy's been running and is advocating for here, but is also getting a foothold in this area as a market for all the other things that the Strand doesn't directly compete with them over.
[53:32.630 --> 53:52.630]  So, it's a bigger issue in how it's going to actually impact society out here, and specifically with the transplanting of employees and displacement of businesses that are in that traditional realm in a bookstore, as we're talking about.
[53:52.790 --> 54:02.190]  But many other businesses will be affected because people can get ironing boards or whatever airlifted to their building in three hours or something.
[54:02.590 --> 54:06.070]  All of that stuff will be deployed faster.
[54:07.590 --> 54:11.370]  And so, yeah, maybe there's... and the fulfillment, I think, is separate.
[54:11.650 --> 54:22.970]  But when you're talking about Amazon coming into an area and getting a foothold with a second in headquarters, you're not just talking about a massive global bookstore moving into an area.
[54:23.750 --> 54:26.190]  That's not the entirety of it.
[54:26.290 --> 54:38.470]  You're having this massive company that's got its own logistical supply chain and data center business, supercomputing.
[54:38.610 --> 54:41.610]  All of those things are attached to it.
[54:41.710 --> 54:54.150]  So, the landscape and the impact just on consumers, like not just the types of businesses that are available to people, but the way consumers in this part of the country shop and consume will be dramatically changed.
[54:54.210 --> 55:02.330]  In a sentence or two, because we are running out of time, what effect did you see that massive organization have on the city of Seattle?
[55:02.870 --> 55:20.110]  I would say just changing neighborhoods, as was mentioned, all the usual things, rents increasing, abject gentrification, people moving into areas, not having any kind of sense of the history of those neighborhoods, not respecting those neighborhoods,
[55:20.250 --> 55:22.310]  up to and including violence.
[55:22.590 --> 55:46.890]  You know, people that are transplanted, you know, bro-grammers moving in and, you know, abusing locals in the scene in different neighborhoods of Seattle, the infamous woo girls and that kind of thing, it totally changes the dynamic of an area that might have a particular draw,
[55:47.210 --> 55:56.950]  but that draw then changes as the transplants move in and it becomes less cool for the reasons people move there in the first place.
[55:57.030 --> 56:06.750]  See, these are the voices that we should be listening to, the people who have been through it already, before making a decision, before voicing an opinion on this.
[56:06.910 --> 56:09.370]  Look at where it's happened before and see what kind of effect it has.
[56:09.530 --> 56:27.610]  We only have a minute left, so I want to give the last word to Nancy and to Alex to give more information out about the hearing coming up next week and about how people can help keep the strand alive and protect it from too many meddling hands.
[56:28.350 --> 56:30.310]  Just one more comment about Amazon.
[56:30.310 --> 56:39.630]  I just think it's just so scary how much data they have about of all of us, all the Alexa, all the shopping habits, you know, what we're looking at.
[56:40.070 --> 56:47.550]  And, and, you know, they're, they're empowering this, this giant corporation to even gather more data about us.
[56:47.670 --> 56:49.470]  And, and, you know, right now it seems great.
[56:49.610 --> 56:53.350]  We're getting cheap consumer goods, but you know, it can turn evil too.
[56:53.350 --> 56:59.270]  Well, now that Jeff Bezos has had a taste of having his privacy invaded, maybe they'll change, but I doubt it.
[56:59.430 --> 57:05.390]  To go back to the listener's question, very quick point, because Nancy reminded me, you can go into the strand, you can pay cash for a book.
[57:05.730 --> 57:07.210]  Nobody's collecting your data there.
[57:07.370 --> 57:09.730]  That's another reason why independent bookstores are so important.
[57:09.850 --> 57:11.190]  It's another reason why radio is important.
[57:11.510 --> 57:16.050]  Call 516-620-3602 for the strand pledge package.
[57:16.130 --> 57:16.850]  It's awesome.
[57:16.950 --> 57:17.390]  You'll love it.
[57:17.510 --> 57:25.470]  You can support us by showing up on Tuesday, February 19th at one center street, nine o'clock in the morning on the ninth floor.
[57:25.650 --> 57:26.610]  We want to see you there.
[57:26.710 --> 57:27.910]  We want to say hello to you.
[57:28.010 --> 57:29.010]  We want to give you donuts.
[57:29.130 --> 57:33.190]  We want to give you t-shirts, pins, come support us, be part of this movement.
[57:33.430 --> 57:37.330]  I think it's an historical day that February 19th will be.
[57:37.910 --> 57:38.710]  We'll see you there.
[57:38.710 --> 57:41.090]  Nancy Wyden, thank you so much for coming by.
[57:41.190 --> 57:41.950]  Best of luck.
[57:42.250 --> 57:44.290]  And we will be keeping people updated on this story.
[57:44.470 --> 57:48.610]  You can write to us at off the hook, OTH at 2600.com.
[57:48.930 --> 57:53.470]  But again, the most important thing to do right now is to give a call to 516-620-3602.
[57:53.610 --> 58:00.990]  Ask for the strand package, get the new choreo doctoral book autographed, get a strand goodie bag with all kinds of cool things, including strand socks.
[58:01.590 --> 58:05.770]  I'm very curious about those and support the radio station at the same time.
[58:05.770 --> 58:08.230]  You can go to give2wbai.org.
[58:08.230 --> 58:11.030]  You can call 516-620-3602.
[58:11.450 --> 58:14.410]  You can become a BAI buddy and pay by the month.
[58:14.610 --> 58:21.710]  The important thing is that you support independent voices, whether they're in bookstores, on the radio, or just in your everyday life.
[58:22.190 --> 58:24.090]  We'll be back again, hopefully next week.
[58:24.330 --> 58:25.090]  We'll see you then.
[58:25.150 --> 58:25.350]  Good night.