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The day is Wednesday.
The time is just about 8 o'clock PM.
That means it's time for the triumphant return of Off The Hook.
Yes, the program is Off The Hook.
Rob T. Firefly here with you.
I am joined in the studio by Alex.
Good evening again.
Voltaire is here.
Hello.
Gila is here.
Hi.
And on the phone, we have Kyle.
Hello.
And Emmanuel.
Hey there.
Wow.
We're back on the water.
Hey, welcome back, guys.
Well, thank you.
We're not back yet.
We're on a train.
You see what happened when the station got taken over?
We just thought there was nothing in New York for us anymore, so we took a train ride and
just started going west.
And then when the station came back on the air, we hopped on the first train back, but
it's not there yet.
So unfortunately, we can't be there in the studio with you tonight.
You know, it does make sense that you would have the urge to go back to New York.
I mean, it's been a while.
It's been a while.
I speak for the whole show in saying we get enough of you between eight o'clock and nine
o'clock every Wednesday that we probably don't need any more the rest of the week, Emanuel.
No, I feel the same way.
In fact, this didn't even improve itself.
I don't know.
We have some interesting times ahead of us, that's for sure.
Let's go to what happened at the radio station because, wow, this was in all the newspapers.
This was on all the TV channels.
We were taken over.
The station was shut down by a rogue group of people involved with Pacifica.
I just want to make it clear that the reason we're back on the air is because the Pacifica
National Board voted in our favor to bring the station back.
There were certain elements that did not want to bring the station back, and they tried
to disenfranchise the people who were voting for WPAI.
They lost in court.
There were a lot of court hearings.
I want to thank all the listeners who showed up at those court hearings.
We want to thank the listeners who showed up at our special program in October downstairs
at the Common.
We want to thank the Commons.
We want to thank Melissa, who runs it and is our landlord, for being so patient with
WPAI and for enduring all kinds of hardship on our behalf.
But in the end, in the end, justice won.
It's not really the end because there's all kinds of other things that could happen, and
we still have some major, major challenges to deal with as a result of everything that's
been going on.
But for now, for this moment, I think we really should be happy.
Yeah, I completely agree, Emanuel.
One person I think that we really need to offer some very heartfelt thanks to is Arthur
Schwartz, a fellow WPAI host, and the lawyer that has represented the station throughout
this entire debacle.
I mean, it has really been a fiasco.
I mean, it started in state court that Monday night when we woke up in the morning and we
realized that the station was taken over and the locks were changed and the employees were
terminated and we were out of a radio station.
That night, Arthur was able to quite literally rouse a judge out of his sleeping chambers
in his home, in his pajamas, to show up on his doorsteps in Brooklyn and issue a restraining
order against Pacifica.
And that's that same restraining order that was reinstated a week ago today.
So I mean, I think we all owe a gigantic debt of gratitude to Arthur Schwartz because this
has been a significant lift when it comes to legal work.
I mean, this is a very, very huge amount of work that he has done on behalf of the station,
has done admirably, diligently, day in and day out, and to a very successful result.
So I think that, you know, we all owe him a round of applause, quite frankly.
Yes, yes.
There we go.
Arthur, absolutely.
And in addition to that, Alex, I just want to also add all of the people that are a part
of the local station management, as well as volunteers and our producers, the many producers
and of course our engineers, faithful engineers at WBAI, everybody who stuck with the station
and saw this through and supported Arthur's efforts, as well as all the efforts from everyone
in the listening area that really saw this action as an enormous loss as it is and was
at the time.
But coming back, it is absolutely something to feel a bit of triumph about.
And all those people sticking with us and the legal efforts, that stuff really makes
a difference.
Absolutely.
And the station, while we were off the air, producers from the station and people involved
with the station and listeners of the station had been coming to meetings that were being
held and things like that to see what we could do to organize our efforts in taking back
the station.
And I met at these events so many off-the-hook listeners who showed up, who, you know, they
weren't station staff, they weren't station producers, they just cared about the station.
And I got to extend a really heartfelt thanks to everyone I met there and everyone else
who's just out there and continuing to spread the news because part of the hardest thing
about all of this is when the station was taken off the air, the faction within Pacifica
that had control of all this basically took our wavelength and broadcast generic canned
crap on it.
And the listeners had no way of knowing what was going on.
If they had no connections to BAI via social media or things like that, it would be very
easy for people to just assume that the station had changed format and go and find something
else to listen to because what was on was not good.
So we are back, but we have to get that word out that we are back and the efforts of the
people who are still listening and who still care about this station are vital in this.
We can do all the shouting that we can, but one important thing I have to ask of those
of you still listening to us is spread the word.
Tell people that BAI is back, that BAI is back in the hands of the people in whom it
belongs and that we're still worth listening to and supporting.
Get the word out.
Tell people.
Tell your friends.
Tell your family.
Tell your enemies.
Spray paint walls with permission probably.
And just get the word out that WBAI 99.5 FM, WBAI.org is back.
And you know, Rob, one of the things that happened in the immediate aftermath of the
coup, and it was a coup, the October 7th coup is what it's being called, one of the immediate
aftermaths of that was a mass cancellation of listener subscriptions to WBAI.
And I can totally understand why people would be outraged and why they would do that.
But we need those people to come back.
We need those people to be WBAI buddies again.
In fact, we need even more BAI buddies to sign up because that is the only way this
station is going to survive.
Now you've seen what can happen if there is even a slight disagreement among certain people
who allegedly are on the same side.
Well, we've managed to basically show those people for who they are, and they will never
be trusted again.
That's just a fact.
But there are so many other people who really want to preserve community radio, really want
to preserve local radio in New York, and we all realize that there's work that needs to
be done to save this station.
And we would have realized, we did realize that before, but we would have certainly worked
with people to ensure that we do things that make sense, that bring more listener support,
that keep the station surviving.
It's really, really difficult to do that with people who came in, changed the locks, kicked
everybody out, told the landlord to find a new tenant, and cut off access to the transmitter.
That doesn't exactly bring forth a whole lot of trust in what you really want to do with
WBAI.
So I think we're coming back into this with a renewed vigor, with more spirit, and I'm
hoping, hoping that translates into more people calling us and going to the website and becoming
BAI buddies and pledging and making the station as strong as it deserves to be.
And on our end, I hope that we really take a good look at the programming and provide
things that people want, and that we become a passionate voice of justice and peace in
the New York City area, predominantly New York City, because that's who we are.
And that's one of the reasons why we didn't just turn into a podcast, because we're not
narrow-casting, we're broadcasting.
We're broadcasting to all of New York, to all of the metropolitan region, and so many
people find WBAI by accident.
We want people to continue to do that for decades to come.
And we hope, we hope that this unfortunate event that took us off the air and lost us
many listeners who still don't know we're back on the air, we just hope that this renews
the spirit that made this place possible in the first place, and that we go into the future
with more passion than ever.
Yeah, a lot of the things that we were already doing, we want to double down on, as well
as embarking on new initiatives and taking those good looks at programming and new possibilities
for delivering, as he said, delivering what people are after, the kinds of street reporting
or special events or syndication of live events in government and elsewhere.
I think all of those kinds of things are possible.
We want to basically pick up where we left off and, as I said, redouble all of those
efforts with this renewed vigor.
Yeah, and I'll tell you guys, I mean, you both make extraordinarily valid points.
And let me tell you, with the people and the vigor that I saw at places like the First
Appellate Division, when the Pacifica National Board had appealed the first order from Judge
Nervo, I mean, the place was packed.
And you know, the people that really, really cared about the station were there.
They were there in federal court.
They were there in state court.
They went from the First Appellate Division over to the Supreme Court.
Look, there's just an extraordinary amount of dedication and purpose, I think, that underlies
WBAI from the ground up.
And I'm talking about you guys that are listening right now, the listeners.
And you know, we can laud Arthur Schwartz and the producers and the staff and everybody
that, you know, continued to work and work very, very hard to make this place viable.
But it really came down to the community support here.
And I think it was extraordinarily overwhelming.
And we need to parlay that into financial support for the station to keep this place
alive, because it goes back to that, you know, I hate to say an old platitude, but you don't
know what you have until it's gone.
And we lost this place for a little over a month.
We've been off the air.
And it has made a big difference, and I think in everybody's life, we've all felt that loss.
It's been palpable.
You know, we joke about it, Emmanuel, but you know, I really missed you guys.
I miss being on the air.
I miss listening to the listeners.
And that's what's really important about WBAI, too, is that we listen to our word listeners.
And now I think it's a time for us to listen even more intently, change whatever we need
to change to make this place financially viable, get back on track.
Let's do it.
Yes.
Now, of course, you said that we were off the air, and I just want to address those
people who will already be writing emails to us saying that we weren't technically off
the air.
It's true.
We weren't technically off the air because something replaced us, and that was canned
programming from a service called Pacifica Across America, which, you know, normally
I would say, hey, that's not a bad idea for, you know, overnight or something or to fill
in programming or just to get Pacifica out there more.
However, in this case, it's tarnished because it's forever associated with taking over a
radio station and replacing it with content that really wasn't relevant.
A lot of it came from California and was, you know, with local issues in mind.
But it basically led WBAI for the last four or five weeks to ignore things that were going
on in New York City, and that's precisely what we should not be doing.
We need to have a station that serves the public.
And that's what it's all about.
That's what we need to be doing, and that's what we want to continue to do.
But we can only do that with the support of the listeners, as we've seen.
The support of our listeners got us back, and now we need to keep going.
So Rob, do you have the info handy as to how people can become BAI buddies or if they want
to call now, the various options?
Absolutely, because we have had our pledge drive interrupted.
Our pledge drive was proceeding.
It was interrupted.
This was a very calculated move on behalf of the people within Pacifica that orchestrated
the whole coup.
And so we have taken a major financial hit, you know, and the situation that we have been
talking about for a long time of just being really struggling financially, that became
so much more exponentially worse.
And so we depend on you now more than ever to keep us going and donate what you can.
And what you can do is call our pledge line at 516-620-3602 or go to give2wbai.org and
proceed to where you can become a BAI buddy.
Either ask the operator or look for the link on the webpage, and you can become a BAI buddy,
which lets you donate any amount that you want on a regular basis, which gives the station
something that's crucial, which is a predictable source of income, a constant source of income.
It doesn't have to be a lot.
Every little bit helps.
Of course, if you do have a lot that you need to do something special with, especially with
the end of the year coming up, by all means, we would appreciate any help you can give.
Or you can text us.
Where is that information?
Yes, there it is.
If you are within the United States, you can text the letters WBAI to the short code 41444,
and you will receive in return a special link you can use to make donations to the station.
Now, we don't have our special premiums to offer you in return for your gifts.
At this point, we don't have the infrastructure to do that.
The station is basically-
Actually, Rob, Rob, can I just jump in?
Because yes, we do.
The premium is the radio station, and folks, if the events of the last few weeks have not
proven that to you, I don't know what we can say, because your support is what's going
to make 99.5 continue to exist in New York City as a community station.
The fact is, if we don't get calls, if we don't get people pledging, not just on this
show but on all the shows, it's going to happen again, except this time they will have learned
from their mistakes.
They'll stack the board with people that agree with them, and they'll make it so that
no court order will overturn what they decide to do to that frequency.
If WBAI means something to you, maybe you don't think it's as good as it could be, fine.
We can make it better.
You can make it better.
If you think there's any hope, any potential for that, and it's something that you value
or have valued in the past, please, it has never been more important than now.
Absolutely.
That's why it is so especially crucial now that if you can help, you throw in what you
can and help us.
That is, give to WBAI.org.
That is 516-620-3602, or that is texting the letters WBAI to the short code 41444.
We were completely unprepared on every level for what happened to us, and we suffered for
it.
That, more than anything else, the lesson we're taking away from is we have not gone
back to business as usual.
There is no back to business as usual for us here at WBAI.
We are struggling, and we are basically in extreme panic mode right now because we have
been shown how easy it is for us to actually lose this place.
We can say we should keep doing things as we were because we've done it that way since
19-needle-noddle-new, but no, this is a new context.
This is a new age, and we've discovered what can happen to us if our tenuous grip on things
around here is made to loosen.
If you go to give to WBAI.org ...
I just wanted to add ...
Yes.
Yes, Scott.
It is that strong show of support for the Buddy program because I think that it's so
crucial.
I think that money being something that we can count on, even if it's a small amount,
it would really make a statement, and as he said, not just for our show but for all of
the programming that you enjoy and is the gift of radio, please, in really small amounts
over that extended period of time, that is actually something I think might be a little
bit more valuable than a larger donation just because we're talking to you now or you're
thinking of it.
If you can make that commitment and we can count on you through the Buddy program, I
think that not only makes a big statement if we add some new Buddy subscribers as well
as ones who may have left during the coup, I think that that would be a really strong
statement and something that would be even better coming out of our show tonight.
I just wanted to add that because it's not about how much, but that consistency and being
able to count on it is really ... It's a thing in and of itself.
We know people care because so many left and we need all those people to come back
and we need them to bring friends because we need to be stronger than we were before
so that this kind of thing doesn't happen to us again.
There are wolves at the gate and even people within the organization, but imagine the wolves
outside the organization, the ones that want to turn the station into something completely
different and use the frequency.
Those people who say radio is dead, here's your proof that it's not because the very
first thing that they do when they want power is they take over the radio stations and they
don't give those up.
That's why it's not just something that you can do with a podcast, this is very, very
different.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
To that point, I think that we have spoken with our actions here too in that when this
happened, we didn't continue to have a podcast, right?
You made a really good point, Emmanuel.
We broadcast, we don't narrow cast.
This is a radio station and a radio show, first and foremost, the podcast is incidental
to that.
It's a foreseeable and intentional consequence of doing a live radio show, but we have been
doing this radio show, you've been doing this radio show, I should say, for 31 years.
That, I have to say, is extraordinary.
The success of this radio show is really on your shoulders and we built such an amazing
listener base over the three decades that you've been at the helm here.
I think we owe you some gratitude as well.
I hate to say it, I'd like to disagree with almost everything you say, but in any event,
we didn't continue to broadcast because we are radio and we will not be here and we will
not do a podcast and that's why we need your support.
If you're listening to this on a podcast, that podcast will be gone if this radio station
isn't here and that's what happened over the last four weeks.
We did our singular show that we did in exile from the Brooklyn Commons as a protest show,
that won't happen again.
We really, really need your support and I don't think we can overstate that because
you're right, there are very much wolves at the gate here.
I'd like to read you guys something, if you don't mind, and Emanuel, I'd like you, perhaps,
to guess who said this, all right?
Okay.
It's like fun.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, you strangely get these things right all the time.
George Orwell.
No, no, absolutely not.
Samuel Simmons.
Donald J. Trump.
Samuel Simmons.
Ronald Reagan.
You guys are really interrupting the narrative flow here.
Was it me?
No, it wasn't anybody in this room.
It wasn't an author, but I'm going to just read it right now and it's about WBAI and
it's about Pacifica.
Now, here's the quote.
Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
George Carlin.
Oh, for Christ's sakes.
Yeah.
All right.
You guys.
Will Rogers.
All right.
This is a great quote.
This is a great quote.
This is a great quote.
This is a great quote.
This is a great quote.
This is a great quote.
This is a great quote.
This is a great quote.
All right.
You guys.
Will Rogers.
All right.
This fondness is wearing thin now.
Will Rogers.
Oh, my God.
This guy.
Could somebody mute him over there?
So, all right.
Here's the quote.
Quote, our job is to foster the success of each station.
The passion and dedication of our programmers, supporters, and volunteers, as well as drawing
on our extensive archive, are integral to making it all happen.
If we stay focused on the critical mission of making great radio first and foremost,
we can deliver our foundation's goal of bringing underrepresented ideas and culture to our
listeners and foster productive dialogue that can have a positive impact on our world.
That mission is now more important than ever.
That was said on July 24th, 2019, by whom?
I wish you'd give me the date first, because I was going to guess Lou Hill.
I was a founder of Pacifica, but that was back in 1949.
Well, it sounds very similar.
I agree.
Gilly, you had a guess?
Gosh.
I'm stumped.
I know I'm going to be surprised by whoever it is.
Yes, you were.
It wasn't me, was it?
It certainly wasn't you.
No.
No.
Okay.
Good.
That's really good.
It would be more run-on sentences if there were.
I have a guess.
Go ahead.
Is it now exiled executive director, interim executive director, John Verneil?
She got it right.
Wow.
These are the words of John Verneil, July 24th, 2019.
This was when he was appointed the interim executive director.
These are words that are recorded and attributed to him, saying about the successes, his contingent
on our local voices, making great radio, all of this.
And he just made a complete sea change.
He led the coup.
I mean, it just goes to show you, this makes the point.
There are wolves at the gate.
If I can say one thing, though, it is possible for somebody to say something like that and
then do completely the wrong thing, thinking they're doing the right thing.
And that happens a lot.
In the corporate world, that happens all the time, and Pacifica is no exception to that.
So I'm not particularly surprised that somebody would say something so spot on and then do
something so completely wrong.
Well, you're absolutely right, too.
And I think what we saw here was that the Pacifica National Board had a lot of disparate
interests represented there.
And I think those interests may have poisoned the mind and the mentality of the interim
executive director here.
And you're right.
He may have been thinking he was doing the right thing.
He may have been convinced that he was doing the right thing.
But I think that this is a man who started out on the right foot and started off in the
wrong direction.
It's very telling.
But a multitude of voices is so crucial.
And an organization like Pacifica that is member-based and that has a really large mission
as well as a lot of different people controlling that mission, you need to also have your ear
to the ground and be very vocal from the local station level and on up from listeners
to local stations and on up to national politics with an organization like Pacifica.
And rebukes of actions like this, I think, are part of that.
But hearing from listeners, hearing from the local management and producers and also community
members, that helps the right path.
And I think closing down listening and not hearing what producers are dealing with or
what management is really facing or what the community is expecting of their station and
thinking you are right and not being open to being wrong, you set yourself up for a
sort of failure.
And to, on the one hand, be community-based and then make these sort of unilateral decisions,
it's, I think, evidence of not really hearing what people are saying.
And one thing we really need more than anything is unity.
I've been on a lot of the Pacifica mailing lists and watching what people say to each
other and, boy, we really have to do a better job because so many of us are closed off to
talking to people we disagree with on some issues or even one issue or even the issues
that we had in the past.
And it's just crippling us.
It really is crippling us.
Somebody who maybe loses their show ten years ago on this radio station refuses to support
the radio station ever again, no matter what.
You know, you have stories like that.
You have rivalries between different social groups, between different radio stations.
Enough already.
We have to put all that aside and say, do we want to have a powerful voice or not?
Because there's plenty of people that will take it for us if we don't want to use it.
This is a time in history where there are much bigger battles going on.
We need to be covering those battles.
We need to be the thorn in the side of the oppressors.
There is so much work to be done, so much to be said, so much that was not said in the
last month and a week.
And it's a real tragedy that that happened.
We must make sure it never happens again.
We have to bond together and not get caught up in those differences.
Exactly, yeah.
We need to not let a disagreement keep us from communicating with other people and getting
stronger as a result.
Absolutely.
So, one thing I want to say, in addition to the ways we've been talking about that you
can support the station by going to give2wbai.org or by calling 516-620-3602, I was speaking
with station staff earlier and they reminded me that actually if you want to bring or
send a paper check, we happily accept those as well.
And you can find the address for that on wbai.org on the contact us page.
Or if you're listening to this on an MP3 and you have a pen and paper handy, you can send
checks to WBAI in care of our address here, which is 388 Atlantic Avenue, Brooklyn, New
York, 11217.
And again, if you need that address, you can go to wbai.org, hit the contact us page, and
it is there.
We accept all types of support and we would be absolutely thrilled to have your support.
Now, I want to shift gears a little bit because we got left so behind with not being on the
air.
There have been developments in other things we do.
We have a little conference going, don't we guys?
Oh my God.
Yeah.
You know what?
In all the hubbub, we weren't able to announce the big news that we had.
We would have announced in October about hackers on planet Earth.
Now, we faced a kind of similar fate in that Hotel Pennsylvania had tripled their prices,
making it virtually impossible for us to have a conference there anymore.
And the future of hope was very much in jeopardy until we decided that we weren't going to
just give up.
And we started looking at artists, visitors, attendees, readers, listeners.
They were all so very supportive and gave us all kinds of ideas and we pursued a bunch
of them.
And one of them really, really panned out.
So hope will be happening next summer, July 31st through August 2nd.
And it will be happening, get ready, in Queens at St. John's University in a bigger space
than we had at the hotel, an open campus.
We will have outdoor space, we'll have indoor space, we'll have many, many rooms and all
kinds of possibility for activities.
But most importantly, we'll be working with people that get us, that encourage creative
thinking, that encourage us to basically be who we are.
And it'll be a very welcoming environment to hackers of all sorts from all over the
country, from all over the world, in fact.
It's close to the airports.
It's easy to get to from the city.
And we're working out housing arrangements that will be cheaper than anything in New
York.
So all kinds of news.
Today, we had our first bout of ticket sales and they were sold out in about, was it one
second, maybe one and a half seconds, I'm not sure.
It's hard to measure when it gets down to that.
But that's a good sign.
It means people are really enthusiastic about this.
We're very enthusiastic about it and we can hardly wait to get started.
I mean, this is a huge development.
I mean, absolutely fantastic, Emmanuel, to see that hope is resurrected here.
We lost hope for a little while when this happened with Hotel Pennsylvania, but here
we are.
We're bouncing back.
We're resilient, just like the station.
Look, this is part of the hacker spirit here, which is you're dealt a bad hand and you make
the most of it.
You figure it out.
You start playing.
Eventually, we will prevail.
I mean, it's the same kind of mentality.
The fact that you didn't give up, that you and Kyle got out there, beat the bushes.
How many venues did you look at?
I can't even know.
I mean, we were talking about this for weeks and weeks and weeks and you guys were stressed
beyond belief and now you've been able to secure a venue, St. John's University, a center
of learning that I think is going to just be an excellent mesh with the hacker philosophy,
the hacker ethos.
I have a feeling that hope number 13 is going to be the best hope yet.
This is just going to be so cool.
It's going to be so different.
The fact that you can stay on campus in on-campus housing at a hacker conference is going to
be a game changer here.
I'm slightly terrified of what's going to happen and looking forward to it tremendously.
Yeah, it was absolutely a relief and really the stressful part was knowing how much hope
means to people and it's such a great outcome for us and as you said, with an academic environment
and a location that I think is going to really elevate and really, it encapsulates what hope
has been about as far as learning and sharing information and educating one another.
So absolutely, it was a huge, huge relief to know that we could continue to host that
for so many people and people that come from all over to be a part of what we provide as
far as speaking tracks and also to check out New York and experience something that they
may not ordinarily get to do in the regular day-to-day life they've got.
So the website is hope.net as always.
There'll be some information on there right now.
There's going to be a whole lot more information on there in the weeks ahead, including ways
you can get involved, including new things that we're trying out and all kinds of different
projects.
We're going to fix any problems that we had in the past.
We're going to make things better than they've ever been before.
And we're going to have an amazing space.
It's going to be like a combination of a hacker campground and a hacker conference, the likes
of which have never been seen in this country before.
So I'm really looking forward to it.
Now, in terms of the speaker tracks, we're going to have more room.
Are we going to have more speakers than a previous host?
I don't doubt it.
I'm sure we will.
Plenty of breakout space as well, and rooms, and really even outdoor workshops, whatever
you can think of.
We're going to be really stepping up some of the recruitment and volunteer planning
because with so much of an opportunity, we want to make sure that every inch of the resources
we have is as amazing as we know what we've done before in other spaces.
Excellent.
And this is going to be amazing.
It's going to be exciting for the attendees as well as the staff, because this is different
to anything that we've done with Hope before.
And it's exciting.
It's new.
It's Hope.
And on that note, I would like to invite listeners to call in and tell us what's on your mind
about what happened at BAI, or Hope, or things that are going on.
Give us a call.
212-209-2877.
Can I just say one thing, though?
When you call in, we're not interested in pointing fingers.
We're not interested in personalities, in saying this person is evil or this person
is great.
We want to hear your feelings about the station as a whole, about ideas we can move forward
with, perhaps experiences that you had listening in the last few weeks, things like that.
So let's try and be progressive and think of ways that we can make this really work
in the future.
Absolutely.
Let's see who is out there.
Good evening.
You're on Off the Hook.
Yeah, hi.
Thanks for taking my call.
Yeah, I think you might have been hinting at what my point is a little bit yourselves.
Pacifica Radio is the problem, and I know that it's not a likely thing that the station
will be able to do this, but in some way, somehow, the goal should be that WBI should
become independent from Pacifica Radio, should somehow buy themselves away from Pacifica.
I think that's the only solution, because they are a lunatic organization, I think.
Can I just say, sir, the problem is Pacifica owns the license, Pacifica owns WBI, so it's
a mighty hard task to break away from that, but the thing is, even if what you suggest
is possible in the future, the way to prove that is to make the station as strong as possible
now.
Yeah, I know.
I'm a WBI buddy, as they say, and I've been a donor off and on for many years.
Thank you.
Thank you for your support.
What's that?
Thank you for your support.
Yeah, thanks.
Okay.
And the, you know, okay, I was on the air with James Erce, I called him James Erce a
few days ago also, and I brought up this story or point.
During that period of time of the programming that was being pushed onto our, your transmitter
from California, I think it was on, it was two Saturdays ago, I think that was the second
of November, in the late morning, there was a program on, and I don't remember who this
guy was, there was a guy talking for about two hours, I think, and he was evidently
from another radio station, not a Pacifica radio station, but some other radio station
in the West, and I didn't, if I heard the identification of it, I don't remember.
But then he put a guest on, and the guest was from a woman whose name I also don't remember,
a woman from KPFA, who started doing a trash fest along with him of WPAI, but specifically,
and I'm not a huge fan of the name I'm going to say now, but they were doing a specific
trash fest of Gary No, and saying Gary No does not belong on a Pacifica station, he's
just a cheat, a hack for, you know, he sells his own products and this doesn't belong,
and this went on for like 30 minutes or so, and she was definitely, she was from someone
from KPFA, and I just thought, this is just one of the most amazing things I've ever heard,
and it was specifically aimed at...
What's interesting about that, sir, is that, like, as we were saying earlier, there's always
going to be these elements that are, like, ready, and this has been true through the
entire history of this station, I think. There have always been people who have been ready to
either do things that would interfere with the station, or at least wait for it to fail,
and then dance on the ashes, and really, that's going to happen. I think if you're doing worthwhile
work, there's always going to be people who are upset by it, and again, we don't want to speak
to, I think, the value of individuals who are involved with this station. That's the job of
others around here, but the way that we can really get things going in the direction that...
Get things going and moving the station in the direction that we want to is by supporting the
shows that we do appreciate. If you want to donate to the station, donate in the name of a show that
you enjoy, like, say, Off the Hook, and the numbers will not only save, help save the station,
but also show which shows are appreciated by the listenership, and we're going to move on
to another caller, but thank you very much for that call. Let's see who else is out there.
Good evening. You're on Off the Hook. Greetings from Philadelphia.
Coincidentally, I received a phone call from John Verneal just before the show,
and it was an interesting conversation. I'm not sure if the listeners are very aware
of one of the reasons that Pacifica took action on October 7th, but I can provide
some information that your listeners can verify about that if you're willing to hear it.
Well, we're willing to hear anything, Bernie, but this is not something that I really agree
with, I don't think. I stand firm with what you've been posting, and it's really not in line
with the truth, okay? You've been telling people that... Well, actually, I think the listeners
are entitled to know the truth. ...donate to the radio station, and basically supporting
everything that happened on October 7th, and I think it's shameful. Well, if you think it's
shameful to follow the law, then I guess you're entitled to your opinion. One of the things that
was going on prior to October 7th, and throughout most of this year, actually, is that the New York
State Charity Bureau, which is part of the Attorney General's Office Social Justice Division,
had categorized Pacifica Foundation as delinquent. Okay, Bernie, we don't have time for this.
You're going to say that we don't have the right to ask for money on the air. That's wrong.
There are links I've been posting... Listen, I can give a phone number on the air. ...donate
to the radio station. This is nonsense. I can give a phone number on the air. I can give a
phone number on the air that listeners can call to verify this is true. And you can just hang up
on me if you want, but I... The Santa Claus is true, okay? It doesn't mean anything. You found
somebody who will back you up on this nonsense. No, no. I'm talking about the Attorney General's
Office. Well, if I could step in here for just for a second here and moderate to a certain
extent here. Thank you, Alex. Let's assume that what Bernie is saying is absolutely correct.
I haven't been able to finish what I was saying, but anyway, go ahead. Okay, let's assume both
sides then, that what you're saying is correct, that there is a delinquency. Well, because
Emmanuel finished the thought, so I'm saying, you know, let's assume... He didn't finish the facts, but anyway, go ahead.
Okay, sure. Let's assume that there is some kind of delinquency with respect to the New York State
Charity Bureau, that there is some kind of filing. The thing is here is that nothing is going to be
done to the station without due process. Due process is the ultimate test here. Nobody's
going to yank the ability of the station to fundraise, to acquire money, to exist without
having a formal process there, where both sides have an opportunity to be heard, and most importantly,
where there is an opportunity to cure whatever defect may or may not exist. I'm not competent
to speak as to whether or not there is or is not an actual delinquency with respect to the filing
and illegal effects of that filing, but what I am competent to opine about is that
there has to be process here, and the process that we're going through right now,
after what happened on October 7th, that was, you know, extended until literally a week ago from
today. It allowed us to get back on the air. WBAI is getting back on its feet. It's putting together
all the documentation that it needs to put together. It's getting all of its ducks in a row.
If there are any delinquencies with respect to any filings that are owed to the state of New York,
they will be made, and as I understand it right now, and it will happen. I believe it'll happen,
but as I understand it right now, there has been no formal process to prevent WBAI or to
enjoin WBAI from raising any of these particular funds, so I understand what you're trying to say,
and I think, you know, I appreciate it, Bernie. May I provide some factual information that our
listeners can actually verify themselves instead of listening to you, me, and Emanuel offer their
versions? I mean, may I do that? We're going to give out a phone number where somebody will say
something that you say. This is the Attorney General's office, Emanuel. This is the New York
Attorney General's office. You have either the name wrong or something. I don't know exactly.
You're not going to let... You're not going to allow listeners to verify the facts for themselves.
Once again, though, once again... Can I say something, please? I do know that people who
know what they're talking about a lot more than I do, like Arthur Schwartz,
and other people involved in this whole radio station have refuted this already, have provided
links to prove their point. Links I don't have off of my head, but this is nonsense what you're
putting forth. I also have to wonder... You can't say it's nonsense. I want WBAI to be on the air.
I want WBAI to be on the air. That's a real funny way of showing it.
Listen, I'm just conveying facts to people about why this happened on October 7th. You don't have...
You know, I'm not saying I agree with it or not. I'm just sharing why this happened, okay? May I
say this so that people can verify this as a true fact instead of listening to you and Alex and me
and other people? This will only take half a minute for me to get this information out of
the air that listeners can verify themselves. Go right ahead. Okay, this is good. All right.
There were two reasons that WBAI... The Pacifica director, the executive director,
who is also the chief executive officer and the general manager of the organization,
uh, felt after speaking with many people on the board why they had to step in on October 7th and
what he did. One is it was bleeding money and not being able to make payroll, that sort of thing.
The other reason is, and this is in the court filings, by the way, if you look at what was
filed with Judge Crane most recently... The half minute is up. Well, okay. Let me... I'll be quick.
Listeners can call the office of the New York State Attorney General,
Division of Social Justice Charities Bureau at area code 212-416-8688,
and a legal assistant named Jacqueline Sanchez. If you give her the charity
uh, identification number, which is uh, charity bureau file number 19CHN, as in November, 0095,
and charity registration number 02-88-84, she will tell anybody who calls that Pacifica is legally
not permitted to raise more than $25,000 per year in the state of New York, which obviously
is already happening. It gives me no pleasure to say that, but that is just a fact that I am sharing.
And when you're on a board of directors at a charity, a 5-1-3-3, you have a legal due
diligence obligation to follow the law. Whether you agree with the law or not,
Amanda, you have to follow it when you're on a board. That's your legal obligation.
So besides the fact that WBI was not able to make payroll eight times this year, every two weeks
there's a payroll, eight times this year WBI was unable to raise enough money to make payroll,
to pay for the transmitter rental at four times square, and other expenses, and there was no money
left to pay. In fact, before the end of the next few weeks, if not sooner, there isn't going to be
enough money to pay people at BWBI, and that's going to go throughout the network. So I'm not
happy about that, but those are just facts that I'm sharing with the listeners. Okay?
Sure. I think we've heard enough. We need to talk about some other things, guys.
I quite agree, but we do invite callers to call in, and you are a caller. So
in that aspect, thank you for your call. Alex?
Can I just bring up a couple of points here, okay?
Yes, Mayo.
For some facts forward, look, BAI did miss payments on certain bills and had to borrow
from Pacifica. They paid them back every single time. That's never said when this point is made
by the people, and I'm not happy with the fact that Bernie supports the coup and is a part of
this. I don't know how that happened. I really don't understand it. I cannot for the life of
me understand if you believe something that you support is doing something wrong, why would you
invite everybody in the world to call them on it and to get them in trouble? Now, I can tell you,
they're not. They're not doing something wrong. I've already seen evidence that shows
that BAI is completely up to date, or Pacifica is up to date in New York. It's been posted
on these very same minutes. So I have no idea why this kind of a thing is being pursued. It's insane.
Well, look, and if I could speak to a couple of the points that were raised here as well,
again, I want to reiterate that if WBAI is delinquent with its charities filings that
are owed to the state of New York, you may be able to call that number and get verification
of that point, but I find it very unlikely that anybody in any kind of New York state office is
going to make an interpretation of the law with respect to WBAI. I mean, all state employees are
advised, whether you're working for a court, for a justice, for whomever, not to give out any kind
of legal advice, that would be giving out legal advice to WBAI or to its listeners about the
implications of this particular delinquent filing. Anything that is going to happen to WBAI and its
ability to fundraise or not fundraise is going to have to happen on the basis of due process.
I haven't seen any of that due process. I haven't heard anything of it. I'm not privy to all the
correspondence between the state and WBAI, but I think that certainly we would have seen something
about that particular point at least over the last month. Now, with respect to the fact that,
let's say that we are prevented from fundraising over $25,000 and we do fundraise over $25,000,
what's going to happen? Almost nothing, in my opinion. I mean, this is extraordinarily low
risk. This is a charity that has cured its filing and raised perhaps over $25,000. There is a
particular legal maximum that comes to mind, de minimis non curat lex, which translates from the
Latin to the law doesn't care about trifles. Because this is a filing, this is a procedural
issue that can be cured. If we cure that procedural issue, then the effect of whatever this ban is on
fundraising over $25,000 is likely not going to cause us to forfeit any of that amount.
And I think it really just completely underscores the reasons why people do need to be supporting
the station right now more than ever, because we do need to get our ducks in a row. If Bernie's call
was indicative of anything, is that, you know what, the station is shambolic right now because
we have been through this coup. And I would like to know specifically how much money the
Pacifica National Board spent on their counsel and spent on a ridiculous bat poop legal memorandum
that disenfranchised several members of the Pacifica National Board from voting in favor of
WBAI and a restoration of WBAI during this particular coup. If we want to talk about
finances, I would like to know about what the Pacifica National Board has spent of the money
that WBAI had fundraised for its own survival and own support and spent that money in furtherance
of a coup to destroy the place that was actually getting back on its feet. That's what I would like
to know. I think listeners first hand, you can see how this type of a thing is pervasive. It just
kind of comes out of nowhere and people that you think are on your side turn out to be on a
completely different side. Also, coming from the viewpoint of this program, Off the Hook,
we are the hacker radio show. It's always been where I think most of our community and most of
our programmers on this program have come from. The angle is if you see a rule that interferes
with something that you need to do, if you see a rule that's unjust or illogical or just plain
obstructive, the thing we do not do is shrink and start complying with that rule. The thing we do
is then look into how we can get around this rule, how we can get it changed, how we can get it
annulled, because we are hackers and we fix things. We do not just declare things broken
and then be done with it. I would have expected better of anyone from this community, from this
program who was forged in the fires of Off the Hook. Absolutely. Can I just make a suggestion
and to counter this crap that we've been airing over the last few minutes? I'm sorry. It just
angers me to hear such misinformation being given out by one of our own. Please pledge $25,000
and one cent just to show that we know where we stand. This radio station is following all the
rules and we want to be strong. We want to stand up for free speech and we want to survive another
60 years. Yeah, and I would just say that this argument, in my opinion, it really is just
changing the locks in another way. They lost. We are triumphant. We're back on the air and they
want to go about metaphorically changing the locks with this type of argument and hamstring,
from Pacifica, hamstring the local production and this show, among many others, and the service it
provides to the community. OTH at 2600.com is our email address. I'm sure you'll have lots to say
to us. Absolutely. And tweet at us as well, Hacker Radio Show on Twitter and Macedon.social.
Absolutely. And hey, guys, we're back tonight. This is a win. We're going to keep it going.
We will prevail, ultimately. And look, this was good radio tonight, everybody. As contentious
as it was, this is why we're here. We're here to speak about the issues and we will never stop.
Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you, Emmanuel and Kyle, for joining us from Parts Unknown.
And thank you to everyone out there who has thrown in and done what you could and who will
continue to throw in and do what you can to keep us doing what we do here at WBAI.
OTH at 2600.com. Send us email. Get in touch. Have an excellent week.
I've never had an equal and I've never had it better. It's the best I've ever known.
I'm never gonna make it with just good and numb. I've got to crash on through and hold on to the prize.
Suffering is not really noble. And crying doesn't make you cool.
Breakdowns are not objective and honesty has to be cruel.
I learn nothing from thinking. And crying doesn't cut through the glue.
I can feel myself talking. Not just who is caring for whom.
I'm going to find my center. I'm going to find my center.
I'm going to excel the way. I'm going to run, crash, break that wall, tumble down, get a bet.
I'm coming up from the ground. With my eyes on the prize.
I'm coming down from a little high. With both hands on the prize.
I'm coming up from the ground. With my eyes on the prize.
I'm coming down from a little high. With both hands on the prize.
And you're listening to WBAI New York 99.5 FM and WBAI.org. If you missed any of Off the Hook,
it'll be on the WBAI.org webpage in its entirety in about five or ten minutes.
You can tell any of your friends who missed the show, no matter where they live, they can hear it
on WBAI.org.