[00:05.730 --> 00:08.170]  Breathe deep.
[00:08.490 --> 00:09.930]  Expand your mind.
[00:10.150 --> 00:12.850]  And let the music be your driving force.
[00:13.090 --> 00:15.870]  Enter a world of color and light.
[00:16.010 --> 00:17.810]  And keep on thinking free.
[00:18.170 --> 00:22.890]  The most eclectic mix of music in the city that never sleeps.
[00:23.070 --> 00:26.990]  At 99.5 FM WBAI New York.
[00:27.270 --> 00:32.170]  And streaming live at www.wbai.org.
[00:39.860 --> 00:43.940]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:44.140 --> 00:45.940]  The time is 8 o'clock.
[00:46.080 --> 00:50.360]  And that means it's time, once again, for another exciting edition of Off the Hook.
[00:51.760 --> 00:52.320]  Wow.
[00:52.580 --> 00:53.100]  Midstream.
[00:53.100 --> 00:53.840]  How did that happen?
[00:53.920 --> 00:54.740]  Let's try that again.
[01:00.040 --> 01:01.880]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[01:02.280 --> 01:04.420]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[01:05.460 --> 01:07.380]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:07.940 --> 01:09.920]  Now I can't make a cough.
[01:10.560 --> 01:12.720]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:13.380 --> 01:15.280]  But if they could, they would.
[01:16.400 --> 01:18.180]  But I best expect the worst.
[01:18.820 --> 01:20.680]  I hope that's understood.
[01:21.020 --> 01:21.620]  But I'm going to go.
[02:39.690 --> 02:41.330]  And the very good evening to everybody.
[02:41.430 --> 02:46.550]  The program is off the hook as we broadcast from our new Atlantic Avenue studios.
[02:47.770 --> 02:48.690]  Welcome to everybody.
[02:49.450 --> 02:50.350]  This is Emanuel Goldstein.
[02:50.390 --> 02:50.950]  Enjoying tonight.
[02:51.910 --> 02:52.270]  Wow.
[02:52.370 --> 02:53.610]  So we're going to have a repeating theme.
[02:53.730 --> 02:54.990]  Is that the deal today?
[02:55.130 --> 02:57.250]  See, things are still... Let me just yank that out of there.
[02:58.130 --> 02:58.570]  All right.
[02:58.750 --> 02:59.390]  That's enough, Don.
[02:59.570 --> 02:59.890]  Thank you.
[03:00.610 --> 03:00.970]  Sorry.
[03:01.030 --> 03:02.830]  We're still working out the kinks.
[03:02.890 --> 03:04.810]  And there are plenty of kinks here in the new studio.
[03:04.950 --> 03:06.570]  But we're doing okay.
[03:06.890 --> 03:07.450]  So Emanuel here.
[03:07.650 --> 03:09.210]  Joined tonight by Alex.
[03:09.610 --> 03:10.090]  Good evening.
[03:10.170 --> 03:10.510]  Hold on.
[03:10.570 --> 03:11.750]  I don't have your microphone up there.
[03:11.830 --> 03:12.390]  It's right now.
[03:12.670 --> 03:13.310]  Good evening.
[03:13.310 --> 03:13.670]  Okay.
[03:13.670 --> 03:14.790]  So many microphones in here.
[03:15.170 --> 03:15.510]  Kyle.
[03:15.890 --> 03:16.370]  Hello.
[03:17.550 --> 03:19.950]  Rob T. Firefly is not here.
[03:20.210 --> 03:20.370]  Okay.
[03:20.470 --> 03:20.650]  Good.
[03:20.830 --> 03:21.030]  Good.
[03:21.090 --> 03:22.230]  So we won't use that microphone.
[03:22.370 --> 03:22.930]  Turn that one off.
[03:23.430 --> 03:24.150]  Voltaire, you're here.
[03:24.390 --> 03:24.710]  Hi.
[03:24.950 --> 03:25.510]  All right.
[03:25.510 --> 03:29.090]  So we got a pretty full studio, almost.
[03:31.310 --> 03:32.710]  Just say it out loud, Kyle.
[03:32.910 --> 03:34.210]  I can't read sign language.
[03:34.870 --> 03:35.330]  Yes.
[03:35.850 --> 03:37.510]  I'm having some distortion.
[03:37.970 --> 03:38.130]  Distortion.
[03:38.130 --> 03:39.910]  Is anyone else enjoying the distortion?
[03:39.990 --> 03:41.190]  Perhaps if you're listening.
[03:41.190 --> 03:41.770]  I'm not enjoying it.
[03:41.810 --> 03:44.130]  Other than the sound of my own voice, I'm not enjoying any distortion.
[03:44.330 --> 03:44.330]  Okay.
[03:44.690 --> 03:45.110]  I'll see what I can do.
[03:45.110 --> 03:47.070]  Maybe you can handle that somehow.
[03:47.250 --> 03:48.230]  I'm not exactly sure how.
[03:48.230 --> 03:48.870]  I think he's right.
[03:48.870 --> 03:49.730]  I'm hearing a little bit of...
[03:49.730 --> 03:50.110]  Yeah, I am.
[03:50.110 --> 03:50.810]  Are you doing distortion?
[03:51.090 --> 03:51.630]  Well, I'm not.
[03:51.770 --> 03:53.770]  And the only thing that matters are the listeners.
[03:54.350 --> 03:57.110]  Wait, are you talking about social distortion or oral?
[03:57.550 --> 03:58.630]  Only half an hour, folks.
[03:58.690 --> 03:59.430]  Only one hour.
[03:59.570 --> 04:05.550]  And it's an important show because we have some rather disturbing things to talk about.
[04:05.550 --> 04:13.290]  And it involves a friend of ours, someone who's been on these radio waves, someone who's been at our conference, someone who's been published in the magazine.
[04:15.510 --> 04:23.670]  And as has happened far too many times in the past, they are the victim of overzealous prosecution.
[04:24.750 --> 04:40.650]  And more disturbing, more disturbing, I think, than any of that is seeing the reaction, the reaction from not only the American public in general, but from people in our community who basically are buying lock, stock and barrel, everything that is being said.
[04:40.890 --> 04:43.690]  I'll update you on what's going on.
[04:43.790 --> 04:48.310]  Here's the headline as it was released on Friday from the Manhattan U.S.
[04:48.370 --> 04:49.350]  Attorney's office.
[04:50.410 --> 04:51.170]  Manhattan U.S.
[04:51.410 --> 04:53.650]  Attorney announces arrest of United States citizens.
[04:58.070 --> 04:58.550]  Yeah.
[05:00.030 --> 05:03.250]  Jeffrey Berman, United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York.
[05:03.950 --> 05:04.650]  John C.
[05:04.750 --> 05:06.990]  Demers, the Assistant Attorney General for National Security.
[05:07.210 --> 05:08.730]  Okay, we all need to list all their names.
[05:08.870 --> 05:32.610]  But basically, they announced the unsealing of a criminal complaint charging Virgil Griffith, a United States citizen, with violating the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, known as the IEEPA, by traveling to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea in order to deliver a presentation and technical advice on using cryptocurrency and blockchain technology to evade sanctions.
[05:33.350 --> 05:40.010]  Griffith was arrested at Los Angeles International Airport on Thanksgiving Day and will be presented in federal court in Los Angeles.
[05:40.210 --> 05:40.890]  That already has happened.
[05:40.970 --> 05:42.830]  We can update people on what's going on there.
[05:43.290 --> 05:55.510]  But as alleged, Virgil provided highly technical information to North Korea, knowing that this information could be used to help North Korea launder money and evade sanctions.
[05:55.970 --> 06:05.430]  In allegedly doing so, Griffith jeopardized the sanctions that both Congress and the President have enacted to place maximum pressure on North Korea's dangerous regime.
[06:06.390 --> 06:20.830]  Assistant Attorney General John Demers said, despite receiving warnings not to go, Griffith allegedly traveled to one of the United States' foremost adversaries, North Korea, where he taught his audience how to use blockchain technology to evade sanctions.
[06:21.170 --> 06:25.590]  By this complaint, we begin the process of seeking justice for such conduct.
[06:26.610 --> 06:43.850]  Well, it goes on quite a bit, but the shocking thing here is what the FBI is doing and the allegations that are being made against him in addition to what we actually know.
[06:44.030 --> 06:47.250]  Now, what we know is that he did, in fact, go to North Korea this spring.
[06:47.430 --> 06:50.830]  In fact, he's been in New York.
[06:50.990 --> 06:53.930]  We've talked to him since he visited there.
[06:54.010 --> 06:57.730]  I was very worried when he went there because, you know, you worry when people go to North Korea.
[06:57.850 --> 06:58.630]  I've been to North Korea.
[06:59.210 --> 07:03.750]  It's a scary place because it's unlike anything you've ever seen before.
[07:04.330 --> 07:07.950]  And people, if they do something stupid, can get in a lot of trouble.
[07:07.950 --> 07:10.650]  And sometimes they can get in a lot of trouble, even if they don't do something stupid.
[07:10.790 --> 07:12.050]  It's a it's a risk.
[07:12.090 --> 07:19.730]  But in the hacker world, this is something that people delight in sometimes exploring the unknown, trying something different.
[07:19.990 --> 07:25.190]  But the thing with Virgil is that he was always up front about what it was he did.
[07:25.350 --> 07:27.910]  And yes, he knew that he violated Trump's decree.
[07:28.290 --> 07:39.810]  And when I say that, I mean, it was completely legal to go to North Korea as a United States citizen before Trump decided that it wasn't Trump and his oil executive friend, Rex Tillerson.
[07:40.390 --> 07:44.250]  These are the people that decided that nobody should be allowed to go to North Korea.
[07:44.410 --> 07:44.550]  Okay.
[07:45.270 --> 07:49.570]  He was always up front about the fact that yes, he went anyway.
[07:50.010 --> 07:51.230]  He did something else, though.
[07:51.310 --> 07:54.530]  He did something that a lot of people don't do.
[07:56.790 --> 08:01.250]  And I imagine he did that because he couldn't imagine being denied permission.
[08:02.710 --> 08:09.570]  And when he was denied permission, I guess, you know, again, this is conjecture on my part, I guess he just thought it's not that big a deal.
[08:10.330 --> 08:13.450]  You know, people go all the time, people from other countries go all the time.
[08:13.610 --> 08:15.510]  So okay, it's like jaywalking or something.
[08:16.310 --> 08:19.590]  I'll just go to this conference because it sounds like an interesting conference.
[08:20.370 --> 08:23.150]  And plus, the other factor in all this, he lives in Singapore.
[08:23.770 --> 08:25.590]  He's lived in Singapore for years.
[08:26.210 --> 08:27.450]  Singapore is in Asia.
[08:28.350 --> 08:33.310]  And to have somebody back home say, no, you're not allowed to walk over to this part of Asia.
[08:33.590 --> 08:35.270]  You have to follow the rules.
[08:35.430 --> 08:37.090]  Okay, you know, yeah, they're rules.
[08:37.610 --> 08:38.770]  And he broke the rules.
[08:39.630 --> 08:41.750]  That is without any question.
[08:41.930 --> 08:47.490]  What really shocked me, though, because the last time I saw him was the day he talked to the FBI.
[08:47.490 --> 08:49.010]  He went in voluntarily.
[08:49.490 --> 08:53.390]  He went to talk to them on his own, without a lawyer.
[08:53.550 --> 08:56.610]  That was the first thing I said was a big mistake.
[08:56.610 --> 08:57.790]  Please go with a lawyer.
[08:57.890 --> 08:58.730]  I don't usually say that.
[08:58.870 --> 09:01.890]  No offense, Alex, but I usually don't tell people go with lawyers.
[09:02.110 --> 09:03.610]  Well, I try to avoid lawyers.
[09:04.210 --> 09:07.750]  It's generally a good idea to have one with you when you're talking to law.
[09:07.830 --> 09:11.630]  And I'm very happy to have you literally at my right-hand side right now.
[09:11.910 --> 09:12.230]  That's right.
[09:12.430 --> 09:13.410]  But you're not representing me.
[09:13.530 --> 09:14.850]  You're just basically in the studio.
[09:15.490 --> 09:15.830]  Correct.
[09:16.050 --> 09:16.150]  Yes.
[09:16.230 --> 09:18.130]  Just to make things less complicated.
[09:18.410 --> 09:18.510]  Crystal clear.
[09:18.670 --> 09:19.210]  Crystal clear.
[09:19.630 --> 09:25.190]  So, yeah, I saw him that night afterwards and he had talked to them.
[09:25.290 --> 09:27.110]  I was very worried all day because I hadn't heard from him.
[09:27.310 --> 09:29.570]  He had been talking to them for a while.
[09:29.790 --> 09:31.110]  He went in on his own.
[09:31.290 --> 09:32.130]  He could have skipped town.
[09:32.310 --> 09:38.310]  He could have just gone back to Singapore and wouldn't have been a huge deal.
[09:39.250 --> 09:41.930]  But he talked to them because he wanted to tell the truth.
[09:42.150 --> 09:43.270]  He wanted to be honest.
[09:43.270 --> 09:44.990]  He didn't feel he had anything to hide.
[09:45.670 --> 09:48.030]  And he had this conversation with them.
[09:48.570 --> 09:55.530]  And what they told him when he left was they're not going to pursue it because it wasn't that big a deal.
[09:55.690 --> 09:56.990]  He gave them North Korea newspapers.
[09:56.990 --> 09:57.950]  He showed them pictures.
[09:58.350 --> 10:12.130]  He basically was so happy that they got why he went there and shared his enthusiasm and realized that he wasn't up to anything nefarious, that he was a good person.
[10:13.830 --> 10:35.010]  And then six months later, this crap comes out where not only do they decide to charge him with violating the rule that everybody agreed he had violated, but to pile on all this additional material that makes him seem like an enemy of the state, makes him seem like some kind of a traitor.
[10:35.170 --> 10:41.850]  And and that is why so many people online and in all kinds of places are saying, oh yeah, they should hang him now.
[10:42.070 --> 10:47.490]  You know, it's one thing to read comments on a news story about various things going on in the world.
[10:47.570 --> 11:00.530]  But when it's a friend of yours and you're seeing people calling for him to be executed when you know he isn't capable of doing anything that he's being accused of on that level, it is really scary.
[11:00.550 --> 11:04.190]  It is more Orwellian than I am prepared to handle.
[11:04.330 --> 11:05.450]  And I can handle Orwellian.
[11:06.170 --> 11:08.830]  But this, this is too much.
[11:09.510 --> 11:30.450]  So by saying that, by making it seem like because he went to North Korea and and went to a conference and talked about cryptocurrency, that he somehow was giving away all kinds of what trade secrets, uh, giving them, uh, services and products and things like that,
[11:32.070 --> 11:34.490]  somehow that is violating the sanctions.
[11:34.490 --> 11:37.390]  And that is that is basically helping Kim Jong-un.
[11:37.490 --> 11:48.090]  It's basically like he went to Kim Jong-un's house and hung out with him and told him all the secrets of how to do things and evade sanctions when nothing of the sort happened at all.
[11:48.190 --> 11:49.770]  He went to a conference, he gave a talk.
[11:50.730 --> 12:07.030]  So basically you're charging somebody as an enemy of the state for traveling because I don't know what it is about this country, but we sort of have the feeling that we can travel places without being told we're not allowed to go there and speaking.
[12:07.630 --> 12:09.010]  That's another thing about this country.
[12:09.170 --> 12:12.630]  We're kind of told that we're able to speak freely, freedom of speech.
[12:12.910 --> 12:13.850]  Imagine that.
[12:15.350 --> 12:18.450]  Those are the two things that you can prove that he did.
[12:18.730 --> 12:21.030]  He traveled and he spoke.
[12:21.330 --> 12:23.810]  Everything else is wild fantasy.
[12:24.470 --> 12:29.130]  And if you know him, you know that he cannot tell a lie.
[12:29.350 --> 12:36.570]  You know that he is basically somebody who loves to explain things, loves to share, loves to have adventures.
[12:38.150 --> 12:40.230]  That is the person we're talking about now.
[12:40.370 --> 12:47.130]  And to see him being displayed like this by our own government is really frightening.
[12:47.350 --> 12:49.490]  I was afraid for him when he went to North Korea.
[12:49.490 --> 12:51.530]  I was not afraid for him when he came to the United States.
[12:51.530 --> 12:52.310]  I should have been.
[12:53.490 --> 12:56.430]  And that is the real sadness in all of this.
[12:57.010 --> 13:00.110]  Well, you know, let's take a step back here for a moment too.
[13:00.110 --> 13:05.390]  And I think this whole situation deserves a little more context as well.
[13:05.870 --> 13:06.230]  Absolutely.
[13:06.450 --> 13:09.450]  I'm thinking in particular of something that you said, Emmanuel.
[13:10.970 --> 13:14.150]  You said that Virgil is a good person, right?
[13:14.250 --> 13:15.370]  You've known him how many years?
[13:15.970 --> 13:21.990]  Gosh, probably about 20, maybe more, maybe less.
[13:22.250 --> 13:26.270]  So you've known him since he was essentially, you know, probably a teenager.
[13:26.530 --> 13:26.670]  Yeah.
[13:26.830 --> 13:26.950]  Right.
[13:27.210 --> 13:28.730]  Probably late teens, I would imagine.
[13:28.910 --> 13:31.210]  I mean, and now let's add some additional context.
[13:31.430 --> 13:37.690]  He was probably a smart teenager, somebody curious, exploratory, you know, this is, he's a hacker.
[13:37.830 --> 13:39.290]  He developed WikiScanner.
[13:39.510 --> 13:41.690]  That was, uh, he's been on, on this, on this show.
[13:42.110 --> 13:57.550]  Uh, WikiScanner was something that, that basically, um, uh, monitored Wikipedia and, um, basically told you what office somewhere, what congressional office was modifying a page about a particular person or concept.
[13:57.990 --> 13:59.810]  Um, it was, it was a great service.
[13:59.930 --> 14:00.930]  Got a lot of media attention.
[14:01.070 --> 14:07.170]  He was on the Colbert report, in fact, uh, and, uh, got all, he was in a, some kind of a hacker house on a reality show.
[14:07.310 --> 14:08.850]  Not, not the best thing in the world to do.
[14:08.950 --> 14:11.750]  I don't think, but he just loved having fun.
[14:11.890 --> 14:16.110]  You know, he was, he was an adventurer and somebody who always told it like it was.
[14:16.110 --> 14:18.450]  Well, he was also a pretty serious dude too.
[14:18.630 --> 14:27.010]  I mean, uh, I, I didn't know that he had a PhD from Caltech, you know, that, that's something that came out that I didn't, I didn't know, you know, at all about him.
[14:27.170 --> 14:37.150]  And I mean, so this is somebody, you don't get a PhD from the Caltech without being, you know, a pretty heavy, uh, and serious hitting intellectual here.
[14:37.570 --> 14:38.390]  Uh, so this is a guy.
[14:38.570 --> 14:39.910]  He never talked down to people though.
[14:40.010 --> 14:40.530]  That's the thing.
[14:40.650 --> 14:42.210]  He would always explain.
[14:42.350 --> 14:49.830]  If you asked him to explain something, you might have to allocate a little bit of time for him to go through everything and explain it, but he would always explain.
[14:50.230 --> 14:52.250]  And he loved a good conversation.
[14:52.790 --> 14:53.430]  You know?
[14:53.630 --> 14:57.830]  So, I mean, this is a guy who, who started out, I mean, he, he's a hacker, right?
[14:57.850 --> 14:58.870]  He has this mentality.
[14:58.870 --> 15:00.130]  He has this ethos.
[15:00.230 --> 15:02.310]  He wants to learn about things.
[15:02.310 --> 15:06.410]  He's working as a special projects director for the Ethereum foundation.
[15:06.410 --> 15:09.050]  He's based out of Singapore, PhD from Caltech.
[15:09.230 --> 15:15.890]  I think he's from Alabama originally that this is a guy who, um, you know, is really going places and doing things.
[15:16.050 --> 15:22.830]  He gets invited to this conference in Pyongyang and he tries to go through the proper channels in order to get authorization to go there.
[15:23.310 --> 15:33.670]  I mean, one thing I think we, we do have to acknowledge here is that, um, if the allegations in the complaint are true, uh, he did break the law.
[15:34.010 --> 15:34.050]  Yes.
[15:34.050 --> 15:36.630]  He's going to North Korea and he knowingly did that.
[15:36.790 --> 15:37.890]  He knowingly did that.
[15:38.010 --> 15:39.430]  And people do that all the time.
[15:39.570 --> 15:43.710]  I'm not minimizing it, but for God's sake, this is a Trump decree we're talking about.
[15:43.850 --> 15:46.050]  It's not a law that's been in place forever and ever.
[15:46.210 --> 15:50.470]  It's been in place the last couple of years and it probably won't be in place when he's out.
[15:50.610 --> 15:50.970]  Right.
[15:51.070 --> 15:52.630]  You know, just to put it in context.
[15:52.870 --> 15:53.030]  Yes.
[15:53.550 --> 15:56.230]  Virgil admitted to this straight off the bat.
[15:56.230 --> 15:58.950]  He walked into the FBI office and said, yes, I did that.
[15:59.070 --> 15:59.230]  Right.
[15:59.390 --> 16:04.970]  But you know what, what the law was and what the law will be is not what the law currently is or was when he went to North Korea.
[16:05.250 --> 16:08.990]  So we, we can all agree that he broke the law when he went to North Korea.
[16:09.110 --> 16:13.170]  But you could liken this, you could liken this to the sanctions on travel to Cuba.
[16:13.430 --> 16:15.330]  I mean, they were, they were loosened.
[16:15.490 --> 16:22.650]  We, we reestablished diplomatic relations and then the administration changed positions, uh, over the course of a couple of years.
[16:22.770 --> 16:22.850]  Right.
[16:22.910 --> 16:24.010]  I mean, it's a parallel.
[16:24.650 --> 16:24.650]  Yeah.
[16:24.690 --> 16:26.630]  And to give, to give you an example.
[16:26.810 --> 16:39.370]  So when, when I lived in Vermont, uh, some of my neighbors, uh, Barbara and Wally Smith, by the way, they, uh, they traveled to Cuba and they wrote a book about bicycling through Cuba, cycling through Cuba.
[16:39.510 --> 16:40.430]  And they sold this book.
[16:40.590 --> 16:48.950]  And because they were in Cuba and they were violating the sanctions laws, the state department came after them, but they didn't try to prosecute them criminally for this.
[16:49.070 --> 16:52.470]  They came after them civilly and they tried to disgorge the profits of the book.
[16:52.470 --> 16:59.690]  And the center for constitutional rights stepped in and defended them and was able to have this entire lawsuit by the state department dismissed.
[17:00.170 --> 17:03.510]  So I think you'd get exactly where I'm going here, too.
[17:03.650 --> 17:09.530]  I think you're anticipating it, Kyle, because we can all agree that he broke the law and he knowingly broke the law when he went to North Korea.
[17:09.590 --> 17:15.410]  But that's where I think the agreement with the government ends here, because I've read this complaint many times.
[17:15.810 --> 17:25.170]  And what else is being alleged, all seems to hinge on what was said at the conference and the intention that Virgil had in going there.
[17:25.610 --> 17:42.190]  And from my knowledge, you know, and reading and getting the context around this, it does not necessarily seem like there was any transfer of knowledge that could not have been Googled about blockchain or about cryptocurrency.
[17:42.330 --> 17:45.350]  And we have this concept in the law.
[17:45.390 --> 18:00.950]  And I think this is probably what what Virgil was alluding to with the manual, which is that, you know, Virgil thought that everything was fine because nobody thought it was a big deal that he went there and he talked about this back in May because of this concept known as de minimis non curate lex,
[18:01.310 --> 18:05.370]  which is this old legal maxim, which literally says the law doesn't care about trifles.
[18:05.510 --> 18:11.210]  We're not going to, you know, prosecute you to the full extent of the law when you jaywalk across 14th Street, something like that.
[18:11.210 --> 18:15.470]  I mean, it's a trifle going over there to an extent, right?
[18:15.590 --> 18:17.850]  If you go over there... Hey, Trump went over there for God's sake.
[18:17.930 --> 18:18.270]  Trump went over there.
[18:18.270 --> 18:19.570]  He violated his own damn law.
[18:19.570 --> 18:20.810]  Dennis Rodman goes over.
[18:20.890 --> 18:21.590]  I don't know if he's been over there.
[18:21.590 --> 18:23.010]  No, Dennis Rodman predated this.
[18:23.330 --> 18:24.250]  And all that.
[18:24.670 --> 18:25.030]  Exactly.
[18:25.210 --> 18:25.810]  Well, that's what I'm saying.
[18:25.970 --> 18:29.230]  You know, the law, as it says, was actually broken, right?
[18:29.230 --> 18:33.590]  And the rest of it is going to hinge on intent and the facts of what happened when we were over there.
[18:33.710 --> 18:34.430]  I agree to that.
[18:34.430 --> 18:44.570]  But I think it's fair to say that there's a certain level of diplomatic schizophrenia at play here that, yeah, is it really the law or is it going to change back?
[18:44.570 --> 18:53.050]  I mean, it's so sort of unusual in, you know, in function that it's hard to even follow, right?
[18:53.130 --> 18:54.010]  How do you plan a business?
[18:54.150 --> 19:00.510]  How do you plan to ease relations when you can't predict whether in six months your business will be able to even be there?
[19:00.590 --> 19:01.490]  And that was the thing with Cuba.
[19:01.790 --> 19:02.150]  Voltaire?
[19:02.150 --> 19:12.790]  Yeah, it sounds like it's really only going to be like a high level talk, but, and they might have, like, as what they said with the FBI people, that they were going to, not going to prosecute him.
[19:12.910 --> 19:22.410]  And even if that was a lie to begin with, it seems like once they realized that they could add the word like, uh, uh, cryptocurrency to it, they make it sound a lot more severe than it actually is.
[19:22.530 --> 19:31.090]  And they get, they get free points in the press to say like, oh, he's, he's about to, uh, and, um, he's about to give them, uh, cryptocurrency secrets and stuff.
[19:31.270 --> 19:32.430]  Well, that's interesting.
[19:32.430 --> 19:32.770]  Yes.
[19:32.910 --> 19:42.450]  Because something happened in the six months since he had that interview and since they decided to go after him, I just want to ask Alex, you have, you have a sense as to how it all ties together.
[19:42.770 --> 20:03.810]  The FBI, the FBI that, that Trump is always attacking, um, they're behind this, they're behind this, this, uh, prosecution, these accusations, uh, how much control does a president have over what an agency like the FBI pursues and, and what they could pressure have been put on them by this administration or do they operate completely independently?
[20:04.630 --> 20:10.110]  In my guess here, uh, because I've, I've never been a president of the United States, not yet.
[20:10.590 --> 20:16.890]  Um, I don't think he would have any control over, you know, what the Southern district determines it's going to prosecute or not.
[20:17.030 --> 20:20.590]  And, and what the FBI is going to find is a reasonable object of prosecution.
[20:20.990 --> 20:24.950]  He should have no, uh, reasonable input into these types of things.
[20:25.090 --> 20:34.550]  Um, and, and if he did, I think that would be a, you know, majorly problematic for all the reasons we've seen with respect to, you know, Navy SEALs and, and things like that.
[20:34.730 --> 20:36.730]  But he does appoint the director of the FBI, does he not?
[20:36.970 --> 20:37.470]  He does.
[20:37.670 --> 20:42.250]  And couldn't he say to the director of the FBI, Hey, you know, I'd like you to do this for me.
[20:42.370 --> 20:43.230]  And that would be improper.
[20:43.430 --> 20:44.310]  It would be improper.
[20:44.450 --> 20:44.570]  Yes.
[20:44.630 --> 20:48.050]  But if you, if you put an improper person in charge, you could probably do that.
[20:48.050 --> 20:49.350]  I'm not saying that's what's happening.
[20:49.530 --> 20:51.230]  I'm not pushing conspiracy theories.
[20:51.410 --> 20:59.650]  I'm just, you know, trying to balance everything out here and say, why after six months did they suddenly decide to go after him and add all these other things to it?
[20:59.730 --> 21:00.350]  What changed?
[21:00.610 --> 21:20.910]  Well, what we do know is in, in Virgil's over eagerness and honesty, I think to tell and, and show all of the details about what he did over there and what his intentions were, because he must have in his own heart of hearts believed that he was truly and purely innocent.
[21:21.170 --> 21:30.290]  He gave his phone to FBI agents for their review on or around, I believe, November 12th of this, this past month.
[21:30.610 --> 21:37.750]  It seemed like after they examined his phone records, that was when they determined that they were going to prosecute him.
[21:38.170 --> 21:44.510]  And that was very likely a mistake to willingly give consent to the FBI to search your phone.
[21:44.750 --> 21:49.690]  Now, wait, when, when he gave the phone to them, that was recently though, but that was not back in the spring, I believe.
[21:49.790 --> 21:50.190]  That's right.
[21:50.650 --> 21:58.670]  But what happened to have, to make them want to have a second interview with him in, in the fall after they had already talked to him in the spring.
[21:58.750 --> 22:02.090]  I'm just saying six months passed by and then they decided to do this.
[22:02.190 --> 22:06.030]  I have, I have some, some ideas, but first I want to introduce somebody else into the conversation.
[22:06.370 --> 22:10.050]  Uh, because, um, when Virgil went to North Korea, he did not go alone.
[22:10.050 --> 22:18.870]  He went with a group and one of the people who went with him is, uh, Fabio Petrosante from Italy, who joins us now on the phone.
[22:19.090 --> 22:19.950]  Fabio, are you there?
[22:25.120 --> 22:25.640]  Hang on.
[22:25.840 --> 22:30.800]  Do we have the right, uh, Fabio, are you with us?
[22:32.520 --> 22:33.060]  Hang on.
[22:33.240 --> 22:35.260]  Do we have the right, uh, well, that's, that's me.
[22:35.380 --> 22:36.000]  I don't want to hear me.
[22:37.400 --> 22:37.720]  Okay.
[22:38.440 --> 22:43.820]  This, either this thing is not working or, uh, we don't have them on the phone.
[22:45.460 --> 22:46.280]  I'm sorry, folks.
[22:46.380 --> 22:51.620]  This is a new studio and, uh, apparently not everything is working and we might also have a problem with the phone.
[22:51.840 --> 22:53.980]  Well, while you're doing that, I'll, I'll check the phone.
[22:54.020 --> 22:59.000]  I'll ruminate a bit about, about, you know, what, what I think is going on here and what I think this entire case hinges on.
[22:59.340 --> 23:04.500]  If we go back to paragraph three of the actual complaint itself, I'm going to read the, the literal language here.
[23:04.740 --> 23:10.420]  And I'm going to say more loudly, the, the operative stuff that I think is, is really matterful here.
[23:11.060 --> 23:32.560]  Uh, paragraph three, it was further apart an object of the conspiracy that Virgil Griffith, the defendant and others known and unknown would and did evade and avoid and attempt to evade and avoid the requirements of us law with respect to the provision of services to the DPRK in violation of various federal statutes,
[23:32.660 --> 23:33.320]  50 U.S.C.
[23:33.460 --> 23:42.240]  section 1705A 31 CFR section 510.212 A to B in executive orders 134.66 and 13722.
[23:42.660 --> 23:48.540]  But it is that provision of services to the DPRK that I think is the operative language of this complaint.
[23:48.540 --> 23:59.600]  And I think is going to be a real issue of fact for any fact finder to determine whether or not there was a service that was provided to North Korea by this talk.
[23:59.760 --> 24:00.740]  How are we doing on the phone?
[24:01.820 --> 24:03.100]  Uh, I think we have him.
[24:03.180 --> 24:04.120]  Fabio, are you with us?
[24:05.960 --> 24:06.440]  Hello.
[24:06.820 --> 24:07.280]  Ah, good.
[24:07.300 --> 24:07.940]  We got you back.
[24:08.260 --> 24:11.820]  Um, Fabio, now you traveled to North Korea with Virgil Griffith.
[24:12.500 --> 24:15.560]  Um, can you tell us something about that trip?
[24:17.960 --> 24:26.120]  Well, um, first of all, sorry for my English not to be perfect and because it's 2.30 a.m.
[24:26.220 --> 24:26.900]  here in Italy.
[24:26.900 --> 24:28.640]  Yeah, yeah, we apologize for the time.
[24:30.060 --> 24:49.820]  I mean, uh, well, so consider that the trip has been made by such a group who were less than 10 persons and it was all of techie people, basically, uh, enthusiastic of making their own, uh, uh, let's say, touristic trip with the advantage of a conference.
[24:49.820 --> 24:56.220]  So, I mean, going in a particular crazy place like North Korea, but not just for tourism.
[24:56.400 --> 25:00.360]  I mean, just with the possibility to go there in a different way.
[25:00.560 --> 25:06.040]  So, the conference itself, uh, it's like, uh, a good excuse, uh, to be bothered for tourism.
[25:06.340 --> 25:11.420]  Like, if you've never been, uh, in Iceland and you say, hey, but there is a conference in Iceland.
[25:11.640 --> 25:14.000]  I always wanted to visit the country.
[25:14.200 --> 25:16.240]  And so, you pack the two things together.
[25:17.260 --> 25:17.400]  Yes.
[25:17.760 --> 25:27.860]  And, uh, yeah, I mean, uh, and this trip, uh, was, I think, one of the most dystopic, uh, and the black mirror level experience that the group itself did.
[25:28.560 --> 25:35.940]  And, uh, I mean, uh, the conference itself was a totally boring experience.
[25:36.360 --> 25:47.160]  I mean, uh, uh, people are reading the, uh, news, uh, uh, are thinking like a Western, like, uh, desk on level conference or something like this.
[25:47.320 --> 25:52.280]  It was like a room with maybe 40 to 60 people.
[25:52.620 --> 25:56.720]  Uh, we had a non-real-time North Korea translator.
[25:57.060 --> 25:58.800]  There was no program at all.
[25:59.160 --> 26:02.360]  It's one of the most funny and crazy things.
[26:02.540 --> 26:03.580]  No program at all.
[26:03.800 --> 26:21.240]  And, uh, yeah, I mean, there was no program, but that, that, that, I mean, that just to give you an idea, the first morning that you wake up in North Korea and you see all your, uh, adventure, uh, journeys, hello, hackers and nerds here at the hotel, you say,
[26:21.460 --> 26:27.040]  guys, we have one mission to go safe home altogether.
[26:27.540 --> 26:28.100]  Okay.
[26:28.460 --> 26:28.880]  Okay.
[26:29.620 --> 26:33.740]  Because you, you understand that you are in a country where you don't have your passport.
[26:34.000 --> 26:35.600]  You don't have a diplomatic mission.
[26:35.920 --> 26:42.060]  I mean, so you have to be, uh, to stick, uh, to stick to some rule and not make stupid mistakes.
[26:42.500 --> 26:48.240]  So just to come back to this, uh, to this, uh, uh, city conference.
[26:48.840 --> 26:56.060]  So it came up that, uh, there were first, no program and second, no material.
[26:56.680 --> 26:57.120]  Why?
[26:57.360 --> 26:59.660]  And, uh, here, there is a very crazy story.
[26:59.760 --> 27:02.620]  So when I read all of this story, I say, what the f*ck is happening?
[27:02.900 --> 27:05.300]  I mean, it's all, totally insane.
[27:06.420 --> 27:26.980]  Um, so the organizer of the conference, uh, uh, the guy that's living in Spain, uh, and that, uh, it's a Korea Friendship Association, shared a bunch of, uh, uh, different blockchain stuff with the North Koreans, like, uh, uh, a paper on blockchain and peace,
[27:27.160 --> 27:34.940]  the one that would be referred to Virgil, uh, some commercial brochure on, uh, tokenization and real estate.
[27:35.640 --> 27:41.920]  Um, I don't know what that was, maybe a paper on blockchain and IOT.
[27:42.360 --> 27:47.060]  I mean, a bunch of totally unrelated stuff that has been shared to them.
[27:47.340 --> 27:50.600]  Uh, that's what, uh, what I understood there.
[27:50.600 --> 27:54.580]  Uh, like, uh, uh, those are the topics we may speak about.
[27:55.260 --> 28:01.560]  But what they did is to consider that this is the material of the conference.
[28:01.920 --> 28:14.740]  So we found ourselves in North Korea with two days of conference without a program that from the North Korean perspective, uh, the material was, uh, what has been provided an example.
[28:15.300 --> 28:19.980]  And there were two days of conference to be done.
[28:20.520 --> 28:25.520]  So just in the morning, we asked ourselves like, okay, guys, we have those two days.
[28:25.780 --> 28:31.020]  They should, I mean, we have to fill the time somehow, uh, what shall we do?
[28:31.540 --> 28:32.620]  Who should speak?
[28:32.780 --> 28:34.080]  Who is the speaker here?
[28:35.060 --> 28:38.720]  Nobody basically has to be a speaker.
[28:39.120 --> 28:51.260]  So we ended up saying, okay, everyone choose an argument, choose one of these, uh, example material, uh, study it and prepare to talk about it.
[28:51.500 --> 28:54.740]  Uh, we asked that, can we prepare some material, you know?
[28:55.400 --> 28:56.180]  Ah, no, no, no.
[28:56.420 --> 28:58.460]  This is the material that has been approved.
[28:58.740 --> 29:02.160]  It has been translated to North Korean.
[29:02.420 --> 29:05.240]  And this is what you can speak about at the conference.
[29:05.500 --> 29:10.780]  So like myself, I ended up speaking about tokenization of real estate.
[29:10.780 --> 29:12.660]  I don't know anything about this.
[29:12.840 --> 29:15.260]  And I was not expected to speak in such a conference.
[29:15.780 --> 29:15.940]  Wow.
[29:16.060 --> 29:25.540]  So you need to realize, uh, I mean, how completely unorganized and really non-sophisticated the topic was.
[29:26.040 --> 29:41.400]  Um, I was thinking also saying about this, I mean, there were people sleeping at this conference because you feel like a bureaucratic nation that, uh, there were some international people coming.
[29:41.720 --> 29:46.460]  And so they, they sent you people to, to listen to the conference.
[29:46.460 --> 30:02.720]  But, uh, I feel that most of the people really, uh, one of, one of the things that, that Virgil said, uh, when he interviewed the FBI, um, supposedly was that he was asked to talk about, uh, how to evade the sanctions.
[30:02.720 --> 30:07.660]  Uh, by somebody at the conference, uh, there's no indication that he did that.
[30:07.820 --> 30:15.840]  And the only, the only way that the government is making this accusation is because Virgil told him that somebody asked him to do this.
[30:15.880 --> 30:19.020]  Was, was there any talk of, uh, of, of evading sanctions?
[30:20.640 --> 30:22.060]  I think deeply, no.
[30:22.300 --> 30:30.020]  I mean, if you want to speak about evading sanction in North Korea, uh, you need to be not crazy, but stupid.
[30:30.440 --> 30:43.080]  So, uh, I really, that's completely outside of, uh, of the table and outside of, uh, any, any concept, uh, of, uh, what has been spoken there.
[30:43.420 --> 30:55.740]  Uh, because, uh, I mean, uh, the, the topic was, uh, from those example material and, uh, really, it's not one of the, of the point.
[30:56.280 --> 31:17.020]  Surely, when you are in the breakfast in the morning, uh, at your tail, always eating the same, uh, the same food and so on, because, uh, you know, after a few days, it's a bit, uh, uh, particular, the, you know, experience with the, all the other people that were there,
[31:17.340 --> 31:24.200]  that, I mean, consider the participants were all people between 30 and 30, more or less experienced people.
[31:24.920 --> 31:28.040]  Obviously, we spoke among, uh, ourselves also.
[31:28.640 --> 31:29.020]  Ah, yeah.
[31:29.080 --> 31:31.360]  I mean, what they would use a blockchain for.
[31:31.580 --> 31:39.480]  And the topic of sanction, it's a surely debated while we're in the coffee in the morning, uh, among ourselves, surely.
[31:39.860 --> 31:50.380]  I mean, because, but it's exactly like, Hey, did you heard that, uh, in Pyongyang, they have electricity blackout, uh, uh, five times a day.
[31:50.600 --> 31:55.040]  They don't have enough electricity to turn on the light during the evening.
[31:55.440 --> 32:17.700]  I mean, uh, you need to get into the context, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,
[32:17.700 --> 32:28.740]  uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh Windows XP machine to search the book.
[32:29.060 --> 32:31.380]  I mean, Windows XP machine.
[32:31.780 --> 32:33.020]  Do you realize that?
[32:33.180 --> 32:34.940]  And probably not an authenticated copy either.
[32:35.700 --> 32:36.240]  Yeah.
[32:37.600 --> 32:38.920]  Fabio, I had a question.
[32:39.060 --> 32:45.880]  I want to know, given that there were approved topics, what was your sense of the expertise?
[32:46.060 --> 33:00.000]  I mean, it was apparent, right, that... I guess, in other words, I'm asking, was it apparent to you that there was already a level of familiarity and expertise amongst the North Koreans you were speaking to, with blockchain in particular?
[33:02.500 --> 33:11.960]  Well, I feel that most of the people doesn't really know about the topic, generally speaking.
[33:12.120 --> 33:14.460]  I mean, what is blockchain?
[33:15.340 --> 33:33.060]  So all of the topic and introduction, when I'm saying it was very boring, you know, is because no one basically spoke about anything that we may consider an interesting concept from an experience of people's perspective.
[33:33.480 --> 33:41.680]  So most of the people really asked the basic understanding question of what we are speaking about.
[33:42.940 --> 34:14.920]  There were a few people, maybe the second day, and it was three or four persons or more, that asked some more technical questions, but like, what's the difference between proof of work and proof of work and proof of work, and maybe took half an hour to try to express what's the difference.
[34:15.380 --> 34:31.720]  But you see that if you needed to explain what's the difference between proof of work and proof of work, other than being a Google-level knowledge, it gives you the sense of the technical proficiency proof of the people around the topic.
[34:32.260 --> 34:38.860]  So, Fabio, and thank you again for being up so late and talking with us.
[34:38.960 --> 34:40.480]  We definitely appreciate it.
[34:41.180 --> 34:55.760]  You were sort of venturing into the areas that I wanted to ask you about here, which is that most of what was discussed there, if not all of it, as I understand it, are things that you can just get from Google, right?
[34:55.760 --> 35:03.400]  And, Frank, you could probably use Google Translate to determine whether, you know, the difference between proof of work and proof of stake.
[35:03.640 --> 35:22.280]  So, you know, it sounds to me like all of this was just very, very surface-level knowledge that was being discussed here, you know, sort of, you know, to give a glib understanding of blockchain that could be gleaned from any public source.
[35:22.280 --> 35:26.840]  Would that be a correct characterization of what went on?
[35:28.320 --> 35:30.160]  Yeah, definitely, yes.
[35:30.380 --> 35:44.260]  And I wanted to underline that when we split among ourselves the topic to speak about, because we had to speak about a topic, I choose this tokenization and real estate.
[35:44.800 --> 35:48.940]  Hey, I didn't know anything about tokenization and real estate.
[35:48.940 --> 36:04.600]  We got back at the hotel, we fired our $1 per 10 minute internet, and we went on Google and wrote a tokenization and real estate, started for an hour, put some notes, and voila!
[36:05.080 --> 36:06.280]  Now I have my talk.
[36:06.620 --> 36:09.420]  So, that's the level.
[36:10.320 --> 36:26.520]  Right, so nothing complex, nothing complicated, you know, you weren't getting into the intricacies of, you know, how money moves around the network, or, you know, validated, anything that would give anybody some nefarious ideas about how to use, let's say,
[36:26.700 --> 36:28.200]  Ethereum or any other cryptocurrency?
[36:30.800 --> 36:44.000]  It's true that being just impossible to speak about a complex topic, also because you need to think of the dynamics of the conference.
[36:44.480 --> 36:52.440]  You don't have someone understanding English, and you don't have a real-time translator.
[36:52.440 --> 37:01.860]  So, it means that you say, blah, blah, blah, then you stop, then the North Korea translator translates to North Korean.
[37:02.220 --> 37:09.980]  If someone didn't understand anything, the person tell you back in English, hey, they didn't understand it.
[37:10.140 --> 37:19.440]  And so, you have to repeat it again in English, and then the North Korean had to translate it back, and then, and then you can move forward.
[37:19.720 --> 37:26.980]  So, you understand that in a situation like this, even the basic communication is difficult.
[37:27.380 --> 37:45.940]  So, explaining a complex topic, even that proof-of-work versus proof-of-stake stuff, became complicated, because even if you have something that can be a complex topic, you need to oversimplify, you need to communicate in an oversimplified way.
[37:46.180 --> 37:57.260]  I mean, I found myself in a similar situation, only when speaking to Italian politicians, advocating for the regulation on the use of Trojan.
[37:57.960 --> 37:59.560]  I can imagine.
[37:59.780 --> 38:10.220]  I mean, the logistics of the talk make it seem like it was very difficult to get anything done, let alone, you know, provide highly detailed technical knowledge about evading sanctions.
[38:10.220 --> 38:14.860]  But let me ask you this, and it's more of a personal question for you, Fabio.
[38:15.080 --> 38:19.040]  You are somebody who's involved with blockchain and cryptocurrencies.
[38:19.220 --> 38:21.180]  You've probably been to a lot of other conferences.
[38:21.180 --> 38:22.920]  Would that be correct to say?
[38:24.660 --> 38:25.460]  Well, no.
[38:25.680 --> 38:28.020]  I don't came from blockchain in the world.
[38:28.040 --> 38:33.200]  I came mostly from InfoSec, Hackers Environment, and now...
[38:33.200 --> 38:33.400]  Gotcha.
[38:33.700 --> 38:40.040]  So, have you been to conferences like the CCC or Hope or anything like that, DEF CON?
[38:42.160 --> 38:43.220]  Definitely, yes.
[38:43.400 --> 38:43.680]  Sure.
[38:43.940 --> 38:44.720]  Every year.
[38:45.120 --> 38:45.920]  Oh, well, great.
[38:46.060 --> 38:47.080]  So, this is perfect.
[38:47.560 --> 38:50.680]  I'm just laying the foundation here for the next question, which is...
[38:50.680 --> 39:11.080]  So, if you were to compare the types of talks, let's say at DEF CON or HOPE or CCC, and the type of knowledge and detail that is talked about at those talks, with what you guys discussed in North Korea, how would you compare the two of them?
[39:11.220 --> 39:14.380]  Are they, you know, anywhere near the same level?
[39:14.500 --> 39:20.180]  Or is one, you know, the level of an infant, a two-year-old level, and the other ones, you know, in college?
[39:20.180 --> 39:29.960]  I mean, what are the relative types of detail between those two types of conferences, you know, the InfoSec conference and what happened in North Korea?
[39:31.360 --> 39:45.880]  Well, in a conference level, I would not even consider a conference, like a big meeting room with an introductory level topic for non-specialists.
[39:46.520 --> 40:15.560]  If we can make an analog comparison, it's like paper airplane, the one you make at the school, versus a real Boeing airplane, because it was a very basic introduction topic, maybe something for high school, I don't know, or going to, I'm not saying, a non-specialist conference,
[40:15.860 --> 40:23.040]  like introducing, welcome to the wonderful world of blockchain, the different topics you may be interested in.
[40:23.520 --> 40:24.900]  So, something like this.
[40:25.360 --> 40:34.340]  I want to just pause for a moment to play a clip from a show we did years ago, when Virgil was in the studio.
[40:35.120 --> 40:36.820]  Actually, Virgil was on the phone, I'm sorry.
[40:37.560 --> 40:57.880]  And this was a very somber occasion for all of us, because it was a couple of days after the suicide of Aaron Schwartz, a very good friend of Virgil's, and someone who also shared a unique talent for both mischief and knowledge.
[40:58.460 --> 41:19.400]  And he had been mercilessly pursued by the federal government for daring to make published academic works available to people, published academic works that the authors of those works wanted to have available.
[41:21.180 --> 41:24.900]  There's a lot of details to the cases, plenty of information online.
[41:25.160 --> 41:34.780]  But the fact of the matter is, he was prosecuted for no good reason, for something that should never have been considered a crime, and it was too much for him to take.
[41:35.260 --> 41:39.560]  And that is something that I think a lot of us forget sometimes.
[41:39.700 --> 41:43.120]  We forget how fragile it all is.
[41:43.260 --> 41:53.900]  And to see this happening again to somebody else, somebody who was a good friend of Aaron's, uh, it's just, it's, it's hard to watch.
[41:54.060 --> 41:56.040]  It's hard to realize that this is happening.
[41:56.500 --> 42:02.700]  Um, and, and we're almost powerless to do something, not completely powerless, but, but somewhat powerless to do things about it.
[42:02.900 --> 42:06.140]  Anyway, let's go back to January 16th, 2013.
[42:06.640 --> 42:18.040]  Uh, joining us on the phone is, uh, our friend Virgil Griffith from California, good friend of Aaron, um, and somebody that, uh, has the same kind of spirit, I think.
[42:19.460 --> 42:20.160]  Virgil, I'm here.
[42:21.160 --> 42:26.820]  So, uh, you know, it's for years, I know you were trying to, uh, introduce, uh, Aaron to me.
[42:27.180 --> 42:31.320]  And I know that when you came to, to New York, uh, it was, it was Aaron that you'd stay with.
[42:31.440 --> 42:35.660]  And, uh, I just, I'm trying to picture the two of you conspiring and, and thinking together.
[42:35.920 --> 42:41.420]  And, and boy, that, the trouble that you could, uh, you could get into, and that's the amazing things you could accomplish.
[42:42.560 --> 42:50.180]  Um, it, it, it must, uh, we're still trying to process it here, but I can't even imagine what, uh, what it must be like for you.
[42:51.040 --> 42:56.720]  No, uh, it's been, um, no, actually it was, it was really, um, no, it was bad.
[42:56.940 --> 42:59.420]  So I actually read about it first in the New York time.
[43:00.240 --> 43:01.080]  Um, right.
[43:01.320 --> 43:03.220]  And I was just like, what, you know?
[43:03.820 --> 43:14.440]  And, um, I don't know, it actually was kind of fitting that I read about it at the time because I mean, like, like, I mean, cause I would always read, I mean, I, I mean, I will, I would first hear about things, uh, about Aaron for, from like the news.
[43:14.640 --> 43:17.180]  So, so I used to subscribe to like Aaron's blog.
[43:17.720 --> 43:29.540]  Um, but, but, and I emailed them, you know, I'd done it for like a few months, but then I emailed them saying, saying that I was unsubscribing from his blog because I didn't actually need, I didn't actually need a separate, I said, because it was, because it was redundant with,
[43:29.660 --> 43:34.080]  with, with all my other news sources because everything he did made, made some other news channel.
[43:34.080 --> 43:36.160]  So I didn't actually need to subscribe to his blog.
[43:37.880 --> 43:43.100]  So, yeah, I was looking at his website and it is, uh, filled with all kinds of interesting things.
[43:43.160 --> 43:44.360]  It's still, it's still up.
[43:44.420 --> 43:48.220]  It's still, I think, untouched, uh, AaronSW.com.
[43:48.760 --> 43:51.580]  Um, and, uh, yeah.
[43:52.000 --> 44:04.000]  Um, is there any kind of, um, uh, story of a particular, um, bit of mischief or, or creativity that, uh, uh, that you might remember?
[44:04.000 --> 44:04.260]  Yeah.
[44:05.020 --> 44:05.340]  Sure.
[44:05.560 --> 44:07.660]  Well, I mean, so there were, there were a few ones.
[44:07.840 --> 44:10.540]  So, I mean, so I remember, okay.
[44:10.700 --> 44:11.360]  So what is it?
[44:11.540 --> 44:24.600]  So, um, so Aaron wanted to re-download the pacer database, you know, because the, the, the, the, the thing he got, he got, um, he got, um, I don't think he's got a rest, but anyway, he got rated once for it and he was like, he, but he only got like a,
[44:24.600 --> 44:26.040]  he only got like a third of the database.
[44:26.420 --> 44:35.920]  Um, but he basically got away with, it was like a slap on the wrist and he, and he, and he told me, Virgil, I, I just, you know, I, I, I got a new free trial to the pacer database.
[44:36.340 --> 44:41.600]  Um, but, but there's a problem that, that, that, that, that they blacklisted everyone, everyone with the last name Schwartz.
[44:42.480 --> 44:52.120]  So, so I need to use, um, uh, so I need to use you for both a name and a credit card number so I can sign up for this free trial because I can't do it.
[44:53.380 --> 45:00.860]  And so, and, and so, and so I was like, and so I was like, Aaron, well, you know, um, don't go around charging, charging hundreds of thousands of dollars on my card.
[45:01.000 --> 45:02.200]  He's like, no, I promise I won't.
[45:02.300 --> 45:03.180]  I'm like, okay, here you go.
[45:03.280 --> 45:03.780]  Here's the card.
[45:04.500 --> 45:06.100]  And so, um, yeah.
[45:06.940 --> 45:18.960]  And, um, and, uh, and then I know, like, then I know, um, like a few days later, I got, I got a call from like the department of justice asking as, as, asking why I was downloading so much.
[45:19.000 --> 45:23.360]  I was like, ah, and, um, yeah, I don't know there.
[45:23.760 --> 45:27.520]  I mean, working, working with Aaron was always exciting, right?
[45:27.860 --> 45:31.660]  Um, I think, I think because, I mean, I don't know, what would he do?
[45:31.900 --> 45:32.500]  I mean, I don't know.
[45:32.600 --> 45:44.580]  He would, he would, he would do things, um, he would do things in kind of a, in kind of a brute force kind of way, or, or, or, or, I don't know, like he wouldn't take no for an answer.
[45:44.920 --> 45:46.660]  He was, um, he was very tenacious.
[45:46.980 --> 45:48.380]  Yeah, no, no, this is the example.
[45:48.560 --> 45:48.620]  Yeah.
[45:48.700 --> 45:51.740]  So the example was, so, so, so he got He was rated once for the Pacer database.
[45:52.820 --> 45:55.740]  And so he knew he was rated for it.
[45:56.020 --> 45:58.780]  It turned out what he was doing was actually legal.
[45:58.840 --> 46:02.820]  So the next chance he got, he's like, oh, I'm going to do that again.
[46:04.980 --> 46:16.540]  Well, he sounds extremely determined like any good hacker would be, and just somebody who went about something until he got the desired result, and I guess pretty relentless in that regard.
[46:17.780 --> 46:28.920]  And that was from a show taped in January of 2013, the voice of Virgil Griffith remembering Aaron Schwartz, who took his own life only a few days before that aired.
[46:29.740 --> 46:40.840]  And it sure brings back memories of just the kinds of things that hackers like Virgil, hackers like Aaron would do, would talk about.
[46:41.160 --> 46:47.680]  You might have heard the word conspire in there, but it's the good kind of conspiracy where you're trying to figure something out.
[46:47.820 --> 46:50.400]  You're trying to crack security.
[46:50.640 --> 46:53.720]  You're trying to be the first to have a particular bit of knowledge.
[46:54.240 --> 46:55.900]  And that is the magic of hacking.
[46:56.000 --> 47:02.900]  And that's what makes people like this a real treasure, something we should learn from and not try to prosecute.
[47:03.380 --> 47:14.700]  Virgil currently, he's out on bail now, but he's being charged with being an enemy of the state, pretty much in those words, aiding North Korea by going to a conference and talking about cryptocurrency.
[47:15.220 --> 47:21.620]  And, of course, violating the current United States travel ban on North Korea.
[47:21.820 --> 47:27.960]  He lives in Singapore and currently, I guess, is stuck in this country.
[47:27.960 --> 47:34.480]  We're on the phone with a friend of Virgil's, Fabio Petrosanti, who traveled to North Korea with him.
[47:34.720 --> 47:37.960]  Fabio, for you, there's no problem going to North Korea, right?
[47:38.120 --> 47:39.740]  It's not in any way restricted?
[47:42.240 --> 47:42.720]  No.
[47:42.720 --> 47:52.640]  From a European Union perspective, I mean, who apply restrictive measures to North Korea, there's no restriction in traveling there.
[47:52.860 --> 47:57.860]  There are other restrictions like doing business and so on.
[47:59.100 --> 48:22.260]  But, basically, from what I understand of the difference between the United States and the European Union, is that both countries, both regions, let's say, got the United Nations sanctions, but the United States went a bit further than the United Nations one.
[48:22.760 --> 48:37.640]  So, the United States and the European Union both got the United Nations sanctions restrictive measures, but the United States applied some additional restrictive measures like these travel bans, for example.
[48:39.300 --> 48:39.820]  Yeah.
[48:40.100 --> 48:47.900]  The government is trying to portray this as, like, Virgil's trying to give away, like, high-tech secrets that will help enable the oppressive government.
[48:48.120 --> 49:01.880]  But it sounds like, from your description of the travels there, that this is more of, like, a cultural exchange type thing, which is something that's actually legal in places like Cuba where we have embargoes that's meant to break down barriers and, like,
[49:02.480 --> 49:04.580]  decrease hostilities between countries.
[49:10.810 --> 49:11.590]  Fabio, are you there?
[49:12.730 --> 49:13.610]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[49:13.610 --> 49:16.870]  Sorry, I missed this last point.
[49:17.290 --> 49:24.410]  It's basically, what Volta was saying was, it's more of a cultural exchange, what you guys were doing over there, than anything else.
[49:25.750 --> 49:27.390]  Ah, yes, definitely.
[49:27.630 --> 49:38.610]  I mean, all of the people that went were driven by the curiosity of visiting the country and to have a good occasion to do so, basically.
[49:39.210 --> 49:48.410]  I mean, no one being there for business or being there for, I don't know, ideological reasons or strange things like this.
[49:50.370 --> 49:51.630]  I'll tell you something.
[49:52.350 --> 49:59.690]  When I knew Virgil, when I went together to a Tor developer meeting and such, we were part of the Tor community.
[50:01.270 --> 50:16.770]  And anyone that is passionate about the freedom of speech, about anti-censorship technology, about anonymity technology, that also means challenging oppressive governments.
[50:17.170 --> 50:24.150]  Because in a security threat model for anti-censorship, you are fighting for the freedom of speech and fighting a government.
[50:24.510 --> 50:30.310]  From a cultural perspective, from a curiosity perspective, North Korea is unique.
[50:30.510 --> 50:33.330]  It's not that it's a place you appreciate.
[50:33.330 --> 50:52.650]  It's a place that you want to see because in the dystopical interest of fighting for freedom of speech through technology, it's one of the most fundamental challenges because there are 19 million people that doesn't know what's outside.
[50:52.650 --> 51:17.730]  I mean, myself and another person of the group also have taken some little risk running UNI, the Open Observatory of Network Interference, the Tor project software for network measurement from the internet Wi-Fi of the hotel, to make censorship measurements for the foreigners that went to the hotel there.
[51:17.730 --> 51:22.370]  So we finally have a first month of UNI from North Korea.
[51:22.850 --> 51:32.690]  So, I mean, the group is made of people that are enthusiastic of good ethical value and moved by curiosity and cultural interest.
[51:33.150 --> 51:43.230]  And I really see completely outside of any point that there is, like, the willingness to help the North Korea government.
[51:43.230 --> 52:05.590]  Because if you came from a Western country and you always work at following your ideals that are good ethical ideals by applying technological skills doing code, hacking, and whatever, you will never, never help the North Korean government to oppress these people.
[52:05.850 --> 52:10.490]  And that's, I think, one of the fundamental background that is missing here.
[52:10.490 --> 52:11.890]  Yeah, I hear that.
[52:11.890 --> 52:12.890]  Definitely, Fabio.
[52:13.030 --> 52:20.250]  And I appreciate your detail and adding some of the characterization of what it was like for you.
[52:20.350 --> 52:41.550]  And I just wanted to express how much of a difference that is between the allegations, given that he's sort of being made out, as Emmanuel pointed out, to be sort of an enemy of the state or mastermind in a place that I think, you know, we could get into a discussion on our next show about this in greater detail,
[52:41.750 --> 52:53.930]  that North Korea itself is not unfamiliar with blockchain or cryptocurrency, yet the allegations make it sound like that's what Virgil and the rest of your group brought over there.
[52:53.930 --> 52:59.270]  They introduced this entire concept to the North Koreans, which is just simply not true.
[52:59.430 --> 53:11.910]  And in fact, let alone the inability to give like sort of a basic rundown of it, it seemed like it was pretty hard from the way you talked about talking at all, just logistically and through translators and so on.
[53:11.910 --> 53:19.090]  And so let alone, like it wasn't a basic rundown and something new, nor was it sort of a really advanced level thing.
[53:19.230 --> 53:27.890]  And I think that as you know, we've heard that the cultural exchange that Robert pointed out is probably more advantageous.
[53:28.110 --> 53:45.430]  And those exploring the network from the inside, those other little bits that you're able to bring back and that Virgil's able to share with us and willingly with the government, I think, should be looked at with a lot greater nuance than this on the surface.
[53:46.330 --> 53:49.990]  And Fabio, one really quick question, as I know we've got to get off the air very quickly.
[53:50.230 --> 53:55.310]  Do you think you learned more about North Korea than they learned about blockchain from you and Virgil?
[53:57.150 --> 53:58.130]  Yes, definitely.
[53:58.490 --> 54:02.190]  I mean, no comparison in terms of...
[54:02.190 --> 54:18.370]  Fabio, I want to thank you so much for joining us in this late hour in Italy, and hopefully we'll have a chance to talk more, and hopefully we'll have a chance to talk with Virgil as well as these absurd charges hopefully get cleared and revealed for what they are.
[54:18.410 --> 54:19.690]  We have a lot more to say about it.
[54:19.770 --> 54:20.890]  We'd like to hear from our listeners.
[54:21.730 --> 54:25.230]  OTH at 2600.com is our email address.
[54:26.230 --> 54:30.350]  And we'll be back again hopefully next week here on WBAI New York.
[54:30.590 --> 54:31.190]  Have a good night.