[00:00.000 --> 00:01.980]  Are we worth more than your cable TV?
[00:02.220 --> 00:03.320]  Or $10 a month?
[00:03.580 --> 00:04.040]  $20?
[00:04.180 --> 00:04.480]  $100?
[00:04.700 --> 00:05.100]  $1 million?
[00:05.460 --> 00:09.560]  Just go to the WBAI.org website and sign up with your credit card.
[00:09.760 --> 00:10.920]  You'll barely notice it.
[00:11.080 --> 00:18.560]  In return, you get a WBAI tote bag to show off, free or discounted entry to special WBAI events, and other perks.
[00:18.780 --> 00:23.760]  Another cool thing about being a BAI buddy is less fundraising interruptions to your favorite programs.
[00:24.220 --> 00:25.780]  Go to WBAI.org.
[00:25.780 --> 00:29.520]  You can donate in the name of your favorite show, like Ecologic.
[00:34.410 --> 00:37.210]  Or Off the Hook, which is coming on right now.
[00:37.330 --> 00:37.930]  It's 7.01.
[00:38.390 --> 00:41.450]  You're listening to WBAI.
[00:42.650 --> 00:43.590]  Time for Off the Hook.
[02:14.450 --> 02:16.630]  And a very, very good evening to everybody.
[02:16.710 --> 02:18.290]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:18.530 --> 02:21.170]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday night.
[02:21.170 --> 02:23.850]  Joined tonight by Alex.
[02:24.170 --> 02:24.670]  Good evening.
[02:24.890 --> 02:25.250]  Rob T.
[02:25.450 --> 02:25.930]  Firefly.
[02:26.130 --> 02:26.490]  Good evening.
[02:26.650 --> 02:26.890]  Gila.
[02:27.130 --> 02:27.370]  Hello.
[02:27.650 --> 02:28.150]  And Kyle.
[02:28.510 --> 02:28.710]  Hi.
[02:29.270 --> 02:29.630]  Wow.
[02:29.950 --> 02:30.310]  Okay.
[02:30.470 --> 02:36.050]  You know, the beauty of radio is you never know all the craziness that's going on in the background while things are being put together.
[02:36.270 --> 02:39.870]  I just... I've got this knack for breaking things, like, immediately.
[02:40.230 --> 02:44.630]  Like, you know, if you give me a program or something, I can usually make it crash almost instantaneously.
[02:44.690 --> 02:45.970]  I can't fix it, but I can break it.
[02:46.030 --> 02:46.950]  And that's also a skill.
[02:47.790 --> 02:48.850]  Same thing with phones.
[02:49.010 --> 02:50.930]  Same thing with security holes of various sorts.
[02:50.930 --> 02:52.910]  But what I did tonight was really...
[02:53.430 --> 02:55.170]  Boy, that is something.
[02:55.330 --> 02:58.110]  We have, you know, this brand new studio here, and we have...
[02:58.110 --> 03:00.550]  We record the show on a CD, and you slide the CD...
[03:00.550 --> 03:01.770]  You know, you've seen CD players.
[03:01.950 --> 03:03.310]  I think it's called a slot drive.
[03:03.710 --> 03:04.410]  Okay, whatever.
[03:04.950 --> 03:05.570]  I missed a techno.
[03:05.810 --> 03:06.430]  That's what it's called?
[03:06.470 --> 03:07.050]  A slot drive?
[03:07.210 --> 03:08.510]  Yeah, that you slide it in.
[03:08.590 --> 03:09.370]  You just put the CD in.
[03:09.430 --> 03:11.150]  Yeah, just slip it right into the slot.
[03:11.230 --> 03:14.690]  But, you know, we have three of these things stacked on top of each other.
[03:15.890 --> 03:18.650]  And between the machines is a little bit of a gap.
[03:18.650 --> 03:21.230]  And I put the CD in there, and it went in.
[03:21.690 --> 03:26.430]  It's in the back of the machinery now, and I don't think we're ever going to get it back.
[03:26.630 --> 03:29.810]  I just wonder, the next person that does that, will it even go in?
[03:29.910 --> 03:31.230]  Maybe I'm protecting them.
[03:31.230 --> 03:31.830]  I don't know.
[03:31.970 --> 03:33.550]  How many CDs can you get back there?
[03:34.110 --> 03:39.610]  But, yeah, just without even thinking, immediately, I find the weakness.
[03:40.590 --> 03:43.610]  That's what we call on technical circles an ID10 tier.
[03:44.030 --> 03:44.610]  A what now?
[03:44.850 --> 03:45.590]  ID10 tier.
[03:46.070 --> 03:48.010]  That's some sort of legal term, or...?
[03:48.010 --> 03:48.730]  No, no.
[03:48.830 --> 03:50.110]  Have you ever heard of an ID10 tier?
[03:50.290 --> 03:52.230]  Obviously not, because I keep asking you what you're talking about.
[03:52.230 --> 03:57.110]  Our listeners are going to find this very amusing, because I'm sure many of them know what an ID10 tier is.
[03:57.170 --> 04:00.310]  All right, well, they can call in and tell me how stupid I am for not knowing.
[04:00.490 --> 04:00.790]  Okay.
[04:01.010 --> 04:02.610]  And we can finally find out what this is.
[04:02.690 --> 04:03.930]  This is going to be fun.
[04:04.550 --> 04:05.350]  You're not going to tell me?
[04:05.810 --> 04:08.070]  If you write it down, you'll be able to see it.
[04:08.370 --> 04:11.430]  Okay, but I don't know how to write that, because I don't know what you're saying.
[04:11.670 --> 04:12.730]  It's like you're speaking jubbers.
[04:13.090 --> 04:13.690]  Do you want me to write it for you?
[04:14.610 --> 04:14.930]  ID10T.
[04:15.070 --> 04:15.230]  Yeah.
[04:16.830 --> 04:20.070]  Is it going to spell something obscene if I turn it upside down or something like that?
[04:21.230 --> 04:22.190]  Okay, that's funny.
[04:22.330 --> 04:23.090]  That's very funny.
[04:23.630 --> 04:25.370]  All right, we'll talk about this after the show.
[04:25.370 --> 04:26.610]  All right, you got it.
[04:26.710 --> 04:27.710]  Yeah, the magic of radio.
[04:27.910 --> 04:28.830]  Say your goodbyes tonight.
[04:30.470 --> 04:31.250]  All right, yeah.
[04:31.530 --> 04:36.310]  It's been a wacky day for us, because all kinds of things are happening.
[04:36.950 --> 04:40.110]  We put the Hope tickets on sale on Monday.
[04:40.110 --> 04:41.130]  Oh, my God.
[04:42.410 --> 04:49.110]  I was, you know, wondering, maybe people would have some trepidation about going to a new venue.
[04:49.730 --> 04:53.210]  They don't have trepidation towards going to a new venue.
[04:53.450 --> 04:58.270]  We are very, very enthusiastic about the new Hope Conference venue at St. John's University.
[04:58.450 --> 05:01.490]  Hope Conference taking place July 31st, August 2nd.
[05:02.010 --> 05:05.970]  And we've been dealing with ticket sales the last couple of days.
[05:05.970 --> 05:07.290]  It's been mayhem.
[05:07.450 --> 05:07.810]  It's been crazy.
[05:07.890 --> 05:08.950]  But the good kind of mayhem, you know.
[05:09.850 --> 05:14.610]  And today, we released information about housing, on-campus housing.
[05:14.770 --> 05:18.630]  That's like the first step of the housing announcements that we'll be making.
[05:19.350 --> 05:21.390]  This is... it's really kind of cool.
[05:21.390 --> 05:22.430]  You stay on campus.
[05:22.530 --> 05:23.730]  It's different than a hotel.
[05:24.290 --> 05:26.230]  It's cheaper than a hotel, I'll say that.
[05:26.390 --> 05:28.950]  And it's very, very close to the conference, obviously.
[05:29.770 --> 05:33.170]  And also, we have a new issue coming out this week.
[05:33.350 --> 05:34.550]  The winter issue.
[05:35.170 --> 05:36.710]  It's winter, so it makes sense.
[05:36.750 --> 05:38.890]  You wouldn't know it walking around New York, but it is winter.
[05:39.850 --> 05:43.590]  And we were supposed to receive it tomorrow.
[05:43.590 --> 05:46.610]  You know, the boxes and boxes that we get.
[05:46.830 --> 05:48.230]  And instead, it came today.
[05:48.770 --> 05:50.610]  And so we had to scramble to get it.
[05:50.710 --> 05:54.070]  And in so doing, it kind of threw the whole schedule of the day off.
[05:54.070 --> 05:55.990]  So I don't have anything prepared for the show.
[05:55.990 --> 05:59.270]  So we're just going to have to wing it tonight, unless you guys have other things.
[05:59.770 --> 06:01.150]  So it's like an ordinary show?
[06:01.450 --> 06:02.290]  Pretty much, yes.
[06:02.290 --> 06:02.670]  Yes.
[06:02.830 --> 06:08.250]  I should also point out, speaking of Hope, that we're going to be opening up speaker submissions tomorrow.
[06:08.490 --> 06:10.130]  So it's been a very, very busy week.
[06:10.290 --> 06:19.930]  So tomorrow, if you're interested in speaking at Hope 2020, which is the name of this next conference, you will be able to do so starting tomorrow.
[06:19.930 --> 06:21.650]  We'll be opening that part of it up.
[06:21.650 --> 06:28.710]  There are going to be all kinds of ways you can participate, workshops of all sorts, projects, of course, just being a volunteer.
[06:29.030 --> 06:33.010]  But our speakers, our speakers really are what make the conference magic.
[06:33.250 --> 06:45.290]  And they range from college professors to ex-politicians to current politicians, sometimes, to 12-year-old kids, to everyday people like us, all sorts of...
[06:45.290 --> 06:48.610]  And the subject matter is just simply unbelievable.
[06:49.510 --> 07:00.330]  Anything having to do with security, computers, telephones, do you guys think of any standout talks that none of us have been in that you remember from previous hopes?
[07:01.330 --> 07:08.670]  You know, one of the ones I really loved many years ago was the keynote with Jello Biafra from the Dead Kennedys.
[07:08.770 --> 07:09.330]  Yeah.
[07:09.330 --> 07:13.810]  That went on and on, and then he came back again, and then he came back again.
[07:13.950 --> 07:14.770]  He talks a long time.
[07:14.910 --> 07:16.410]  Yeah, and it was fantastic.
[07:16.670 --> 07:19.130]  Well, it was different, and nobody was expecting that.
[07:19.790 --> 07:23.410]  You know, at a hacker conference, you invite a guy who doesn't even have a computer.
[07:23.830 --> 07:25.330]  But he made it relevant.
[07:25.330 --> 07:26.310]  He made it interesting.
[07:26.570 --> 07:36.770]  And that's what we're looking for, people that make it relevant, make it interesting, and that, you know, don't have to be people with PhDs or experts in a particular field.
[07:36.770 --> 07:42.590]  They just have to have a viewpoint and a perspective that kind of syncs with the hacker perspective.
[07:42.950 --> 07:44.330]  So many people do.
[07:44.610 --> 07:45.610]  So many people have that.
[07:46.570 --> 07:47.050]  Yeah.
[07:47.230 --> 07:51.070]  There have been so many interesting talks that apply.
[07:51.170 --> 07:52.510]  I mean, there's lots of hardware stuff.
[07:52.610 --> 07:53.470]  There's lots of software stuff.
[07:53.490 --> 07:56.970]  There's lots of things that you would consider maybe computery stuff.
[07:56.970 --> 08:02.950]  But there have been so many things that have applied the hacker mindset in ways that you might not have anticipated.
[08:03.450 --> 08:06.710]  The Yes Men, who have presented at many HOPE conferences.
[08:06.710 --> 08:13.850]  And what they do is more along the lines of social engineering and activism-based pranks and things like that.
[08:14.230 --> 08:15.450]  They keynoted once.
[08:15.550 --> 08:17.350]  They presented at multiple conferences.
[08:17.530 --> 08:20.110]  They were at the conference before we knew who the Yes Men were.
[08:20.330 --> 08:21.750]  That's how cool it is.
[08:21.790 --> 08:25.830]  A lot of people actually turn out to be famous after they come to our conferences.
[08:25.830 --> 08:28.510]  There are people we can name, but we're not going to because it would embarrass them.
[08:28.510 --> 08:29.270]  There are.
[08:29.390 --> 08:33.290]  And also talks on, like, hacking as regards food preparation.
[08:33.470 --> 08:36.130]  There have been interesting gastronomic things that have happened.
[08:37.210 --> 08:38.270]  Things of that sort.
[08:38.670 --> 08:40.450]  Hacking and sexuality.
[08:41.050 --> 08:42.470]  Multiple people have presented on that.
[08:42.690 --> 08:49.010]  We're thinking, since we have all this extra space now at the campus, we can do all sorts of outdoor things as well.
[08:49.010 --> 08:55.450]  We're thinking of having a car hacking section outdoors because we have access to parking lots.
[08:56.790 --> 08:59.350]  And, again, we have this gigantic field.
[08:59.770 --> 09:00.790]  There are all sorts of things.
[09:00.870 --> 09:02.670]  The imagination is really our only limitation.
[09:02.670 --> 09:08.830]  So over the next few months, we're going to be brainstorming with a whole lot of people and just building things up.
[09:08.950 --> 09:11.830]  So there are so many ideas we have not thought of yet.
[09:11.830 --> 09:13.570]  That's where we need your help.
[09:14.930 --> 09:16.350]  Listeners, attendees, readers.
[09:16.350 --> 09:22.830]  You can get more information, what's up now, and it'll be built upon in the weeks and months ahead.
[09:22.970 --> 09:25.090]  www.hope.net.
[09:25.270 --> 09:26.690]  H-O-P-E dot net.
[09:26.970 --> 09:32.890]  And on there, you'll also have an opportunity to sign up for the newsletter so that you get email updates whenever something happens.
[09:33.050 --> 09:35.010]  Like this week, you'll probably get a few email updates.
[09:35.450 --> 09:40.350]  Yeah, and that's really helpful because we're going to continue this frenzied pace.
[09:40.350 --> 09:42.250]  And we enjoy it.
[09:42.490 --> 09:50.790]  It's pretty exciting for us, too, just to especially get the feedback and the response that we're seeing as far as interest.
[09:51.030 --> 09:58.070]  And that space, a great example of automobile stuff, repair is something we talk about, and the right to repair.
[09:58.290 --> 10:11.290]  I think having demonstrations of what's possible with machines when you're allowed to tinker with them, I think there's a whole different, a whole slew of subject matter that that spans in particular.
[10:12.550 --> 10:20.190]  I think another, just building on interesting things, people with interesting jobs tend to share at Hope, and I really enjoy that.
[10:20.290 --> 10:28.650]  One of my favorite talks was someone speaking about working in a chip fab for making microprocessors and so on.
[10:28.650 --> 10:30.090]  And that's a unique job.
[10:30.230 --> 10:34.010]  That's something that the general public doesn't really know that much about.
[10:34.390 --> 10:36.550]  Is that something they do in this country, or is that something far away?
[10:36.830 --> 10:44.370]  Yeah, it's done all around the world, but there are large manufacturers here, generally in advanced industrial economies.
[10:44.430 --> 10:49.890]  You would have that level of fabrication going on.
[10:49.890 --> 10:59.130]  And another collective, I think at our most recent conference that I remember that stood out was the Four Thieves Vinegar Collective.
[10:59.130 --> 11:20.710]  They did a talk on medicines and a little bit about pharmaceutical industry and some of the sort of injustice around access and drug costs, and really how compounds can be made in all kinds of different ways, and where that society meets industry and capital and so on.
[11:20.810 --> 11:31.950]  So that's an interesting perspective that you wouldn't really hear in a lot of other places, and yet it's sort of critical as people rely more and more on modern medicine.
[11:31.950 --> 11:39.970]  And we're learning so much more about how physiology and biology and how different chemicals and compounds work.
[11:40.130 --> 11:41.490]  It's fascinating stuff.
[11:41.670 --> 11:55.610]  It's a little outside the realm of like telephones and computer technology, but a lot of these disciplines are harnessing the incredible power of personal computing and realizing that it's sort of democratizing effect.
[11:55.610 --> 12:06.190]  And we just want to, I think, push that, have that evolve insofar as our understanding of the telephone networks, computer networks, and everything that relies on those things.
[12:06.370 --> 12:15.830]  I think there's also a lot to be said for biohacking and how you can take run-of-the-mill information or not-so-run-of-the-mill information and apply the hacker mindset to it.
[12:15.950 --> 12:20.790]  I have been quoting verbatim a talk from 2016 for the past few years.
[12:20.790 --> 12:25.350]  The presenter had gotten her DNA screened, you know, like people are doing now.
[12:25.510 --> 12:31.730]  She did 23andMe or whatever, and saw that there was some ethnic information she wasn't expecting.
[12:31.730 --> 12:37.650]  She realized she might be at risk of some genetically carried diseases because of this lineage she didn't know she had.
[12:37.770 --> 12:48.590]  And lo and behold, she was, but it was because she looked at her DNA results with a hacker's eye, and a biohacker's eye for that matter, to think about it and proactively handle her health in a biohacking kind of way.
[12:48.590 --> 12:49.570]  Amazing.
[12:49.870 --> 13:03.310]  And this is part of what I love about having it in an academic setting because you have access to people who really study the science behind everything we're talking about and can lend their expertise to that.
[13:03.430 --> 13:06.810]  And it's just a more healthy environment, I think, than a hotel in midtown Manhattan.
[13:07.350 --> 13:12.250]  Love the hotel pen, but I think it's time for a change, and this seems like a healthy one.
[13:12.850 --> 13:18.810]  Speaking of which, can you talk a little bit about the lodging situation at St. John's?
[13:19.050 --> 13:29.510]  Well, they have a bunch of dormitories there, and I know, you know, dormitories might not be for everybody, but I've stayed in all kinds of housing arrangements over the years.
[13:30.250 --> 13:35.030]  Everything from tents to dorms to hotels to just staying up all night.
[13:35.630 --> 13:41.430]  But this is an interesting way of doing things because, like I said, it's cheaper than a hotel.
[13:41.590 --> 13:42.910]  You're right there on campus.
[13:44.510 --> 13:50.030]  You can split a suite with a bunch of other people, I think up to six people, maybe eight people.
[13:51.730 --> 13:54.010]  And it's something we've never done before.
[13:54.250 --> 13:55.590]  So there are going to be hiccups, I'm sure.
[13:56.230 --> 13:59.770]  But I think it can be a lot of fun for people that are really...
[13:59.770 --> 14:02.950]  They want to stay close to the conference, and they want to experience everything.
[14:04.090 --> 14:11.410]  And for those who don't like that, or who prefer to be in a traditional hotel, there are hotels nearby.
[14:11.410 --> 14:13.730]  We are going to be announcing that next week.
[14:14.070 --> 14:18.070]  And there will be even more options announced in the weeks following that.
[14:18.230 --> 14:21.290]  I mean, this could be really interesting, I think.
[14:21.770 --> 14:28.830]  One question, perhaps for Kyle, actually, is, do you know if the dormitory rooms are going to have Ethernet connections that will be live?
[14:29.710 --> 14:34.810]  I think in particular, each room will probably have wireless access.
[14:34.810 --> 14:51.490]  I'm not sure about wired connectivity, but that's part of what we'll be designing and making sure we have available once we know exactly what parts of the dormitory area and where the infrastructure has to be laid, if at all.
[14:51.630 --> 14:57.770]  If you're looking to get away from the network, Alex, you're going to have a hard time because this network is... it's a campus, you know?
[14:57.770 --> 14:59.470]  They wire everything.
[14:59.890 --> 15:08.090]  And what's amazing is that between our efforts and their efforts, our network speed is at least tripling from the last time.
[15:08.150 --> 15:09.430]  And the last time was amazing.
[15:09.570 --> 15:13.730]  You know, just to give you a little bit of history, we were working with... what was it, Kyle?
[15:13.890 --> 15:14.990]  50 megabit connection?
[15:15.090 --> 15:17.030]  Yeah, we had a microwave link on the roof.
[15:17.030 --> 15:17.930]  It was 50 megabit.
[15:17.930 --> 15:26.050]  And then, through your efforts, we were able to find dark fiber and turn that into 10 gigabit.
[15:26.210 --> 15:31.050]  It took a couple conferences, like maybe two, four years by the time we really got it.
[15:31.090 --> 15:35.130]  And that's faster than any other hacker conference in the country.
[15:35.250 --> 15:36.630]  I believe it still is.
[15:36.750 --> 15:39.610]  But now we're going to go up to 30 gigabit and maybe 40.
[15:39.610 --> 15:43.070]  Yeah, it's something that we're assessing still.
[15:43.330 --> 15:47.290]  And the long and the short of it is we're going to continue to expand.
[15:47.430 --> 16:02.150]  But what we realized, I think, when we were taking this on and really considering this academic environment was, yeah, you know, it's sort of already built in a lot of the sort of the access regards as far as people being able to have ubiquitous wireless and stuff like that.
[16:02.270 --> 16:05.930]  So those parts of it were sort of in place.
[16:05.930 --> 16:28.130]  And when we considered how much our volunteers were building and we've just, over the years, become so accustomed to constructing everything ourselves that it was interesting to step back a little bit in considering this in new ways so that, yeah, we'll continue doing the kind of customization that everybody,
[16:28.130 --> 16:31.150]  I think, knows and comes to expect from the event.
[16:31.150 --> 16:37.750]  But we want to sort of accept new challenges instead of redoing a lot of what we've done in the past.
[16:37.890 --> 16:49.870]  And given that we won't have to build as much, I think, it'll be good for our team because I'd say in the last six years, the last three events, we've really had outstanding efforts from the network team.
[16:49.970 --> 16:56.090]  And I think in some part of my mind, I'm thinking we should maybe give them a little bit of a break this year.
[16:56.090 --> 17:01.830]  But we'll, suffice to say, we'll be expanding and taking on new stuff.
[17:01.830 --> 17:05.670]  But it will not be built out in quite the same way because it's already there.
[17:05.810 --> 17:08.170]  And that's, I think, a blessing in this case.
[17:08.370 --> 17:20.430]  Well, you know, I think of, especially with the outdoor element that we now have, the loss of Maker Faire, we can at least try to fill some of the void that's left.
[17:20.530 --> 17:22.450]  And the same borough, too, in Queens.
[17:23.270 --> 17:30.490]  And I'm thinking drones, I'm thinking tents, I'm thinking all kinds of musical possibilities.
[17:31.090 --> 17:38.130]  Again, it's really up to what people bring to the table, volunteer efforts, ideas, creative people, talent.
[17:39.270 --> 17:41.350]  There's no limit in this community.
[17:41.570 --> 17:51.050]  And so we're going to be asking for input and interested parties to get in touch with us, as you said, over the course of the next few weeks.
[17:51.050 --> 18:03.090]  Pretty much, I would say every week, we're going to be focusing on a different aspect so that we can get as maximum input and get all of those different activities planned and started in earnest.
[18:03.290 --> 18:03.610]  Yes.
[18:03.990 --> 18:09.830]  If you can't wait, volunteers at hope.net is an email address if you want to volunteer or have ideas.
[18:11.270 --> 18:14.630]  Also, hope at hope.net gets to various people as well.
[18:14.710 --> 18:18.750]  There'll be all kinds of other points of contact as well in the weeks ahead.
[18:18.750 --> 18:28.670]  I do have a question, in light of the expanded space, because there is a legend, a hope legend I have heard of, a story of yore that I've never actually seen.
[18:29.430 --> 18:34.290]  With the expanded space on the campus, will Phonehenge be back?
[18:34.590 --> 18:36.490]  Oh boy, Phonehenge, yeah.
[18:37.110 --> 18:40.650]  You know, Phonehenge has this sordid history.
[18:42.750 --> 18:43.590]  It was there.
[18:43.750 --> 18:44.290]  It was there.
[18:44.470 --> 18:47.270]  People, it was just built way too small, and nobody could see it.
[18:47.430 --> 18:51.790]  But if we can find it, well, you know what?
[18:51.830 --> 18:53.950]  I'm thinking maybe we should go in the other direction this time.
[18:54.090 --> 18:56.850]  Maybe we should just build a big Phonehenge.
[18:56.950 --> 18:57.830]  I think that's a great idea.
[18:57.830 --> 19:02.970]  But, you know, Gailie, you speak truth to a very important thing here.
[19:03.090 --> 19:03.430]  Artists.
[19:03.570 --> 19:04.390]  We need artists.
[19:04.530 --> 19:05.770]  Artwork of all kinds.
[19:06.050 --> 19:13.610]  This is your chance to express yourself on a technological level, something having to do with the hacker world or just technology in general.
[19:14.210 --> 19:18.690]  This is a chance to really shine and create in all different ways.
[19:18.690 --> 19:25.450]  So, musically, sculptures, all kinds of things we can do.
[19:25.810 --> 19:28.890]  It's, like I said, we have no limits as far as imagination.
[19:29.070 --> 19:31.370]  And the people in this community can do almost anything.
[19:31.670 --> 19:32.050]  Yeah.
[19:32.170 --> 19:40.990]  If you are a Hope attendee of the past and you were thinking at any point during the conference, man, it would be cool if they had room for XYZ here, now we do.
[19:41.150 --> 19:44.530]  So, take your XYZ and get in touch with us at volunteersathope.net.
[19:44.530 --> 19:45.190]  Yeah.
[19:45.950 --> 19:49.070]  Tesla coils were not possible indoors in the past.
[19:49.070 --> 19:49.390]  That's right.
[19:49.750 --> 19:51.610]  That was a big disappointment because...
[19:51.610 --> 19:52.690]  We had so many people.
[19:52.690 --> 20:02.050]  We had an offer to have a big Tesla coil and, you know, just can't really do that in an auditorium with a bunch of people connecting their phones and computers.
[20:03.810 --> 20:06.710]  And outdoors, though, yeah, we can do things like that.
[20:06.790 --> 20:10.330]  And we're hoping the folks at Wardenclyffe will come by and...
[20:10.330 --> 20:10.730]  Oh, sure.
[20:10.850 --> 20:11.010]  Yeah.
[20:11.370 --> 20:13.690]  It's just one small example.
[20:13.690 --> 20:23.290]  But it's the kind of thing that we want to revisit given that it's a serious possibility as far as being able to accommodate it now.
[20:23.570 --> 20:27.930]  And that I hope everyone is thinking in the same way.
[20:28.070 --> 20:41.050]  I hope that they get as inspired because the limitations or the possibilities really are a lot more vast than in the past as a result of the expansion.
[20:41.050 --> 20:50.650]  I'm thinking, you know, vintage computer, the possibility with those people, what they can bring, what they can demonstrate and show, ham radio, or even satellite.
[20:51.310 --> 20:53.150]  You have a view of the sky now.
[20:53.490 --> 20:58.890]  And it's so much easier to get to if you're driving because you don't have to drive through Manhattan and it's free parking.
[20:59.010 --> 21:01.430]  And you can't beat that in the city.
[21:01.550 --> 21:04.370]  So all kinds of possibilities lie ahead for the Hope Conference.
[21:04.510 --> 21:07.410]  We're seeing so much enthusiasm and it's contagious.
[21:07.410 --> 21:09.130]  It makes us enthusiastic as well.
[21:10.110 --> 21:20.590]  I'm not sure, to be honest, if we're going to keep ticket sales open as much as we have in the past because we don't want to have too many people the first time in a new place.
[21:20.670 --> 21:21.330]  We'll see.
[21:21.330 --> 21:25.770]  But it's possible they may at some point be closed.
[21:26.470 --> 21:28.970]  So I would suggest looking into it while you can.
[21:29.670 --> 21:30.790]  www.hope.net.
[21:30.910 --> 21:31.970]  All the information is there.
[21:32.090 --> 21:33.130]  More information will be posted.
[21:33.990 --> 21:35.470]  And it's going to be fun.
[21:35.630 --> 21:37.150]  It's going to be a lot of work.
[21:37.290 --> 21:38.310]  But it's going to be fun.
[21:38.470 --> 21:40.050]  And I think we'll make history.
[21:40.810 --> 21:41.210]  Yeah.
[21:41.330 --> 21:43.010]  And we like it to be homey.
[21:43.090 --> 21:45.310]  We don't want it to be too enormous.
[21:45.310 --> 21:51.250]  And I think that we'll have a sweet spot that is just right.
[21:51.250 --> 21:55.410]  And it'll be as much fun as ever.
[21:55.550 --> 21:57.370]  But it could be enormous.
[21:57.590 --> 22:01.530]  We have the possibility to have one speaker track hold 6,000 people.
[22:01.810 --> 22:04.130]  But we don't want to do that.
[22:04.410 --> 22:05.010]  It changes.
[22:05.390 --> 22:05.610]  Yeah.
[22:05.830 --> 22:06.210]  It's...
[22:06.210 --> 22:08.770]  I mean, we could move into that someday.
[22:08.770 --> 22:13.230]  We would become, I think, something we're not quite prepared to be yet.
[22:13.230 --> 22:13.650]  Yeah.
[22:15.350 --> 22:17.470]  600 people is a lot.
[22:17.730 --> 22:18.550]  That's a lot of people.
[22:18.870 --> 22:19.490]  That's a good size in a room.
[22:19.710 --> 22:21.390]  And, you know, it gets more than that.
[22:21.390 --> 22:23.050]  You start having a different kind of event.
[22:23.230 --> 22:23.690]  How many...
[22:23.690 --> 22:25.650]  You have, like, 40 minutes of questions.
[22:25.790 --> 22:26.190]  At least.
[22:26.330 --> 22:26.930]  Everybody wants...
[22:26.930 --> 22:27.930]  40 minutes just to file in.
[22:28.850 --> 22:29.850]  But that's what I mean.
[22:29.930 --> 22:34.770]  We don't want to make it so that there's so many people there that, you know, you're bumping into each other.
[22:34.990 --> 22:42.190]  And, you know, our first time, we don't know how to really use the space as perfectly as we want to.
[22:42.610 --> 22:44.090]  But we'll go through this together.
[22:44.270 --> 22:44.810]  We'll figure it out.
[22:45.010 --> 22:48.730]  Now, you had Hope on the second Hope Conference.
[22:48.990 --> 22:51.250]  Beyond Hope was in a different location than the first.
[22:51.290 --> 22:51.610]  That's right.
[22:51.670 --> 22:53.290]  The Puck Building, which no longer exists.
[22:53.410 --> 22:55.030]  The building still exists, but it's now...
[22:55.030 --> 22:56.270]  I think it's an REI or something.
[22:56.390 --> 22:56.510]  Yeah.
[22:56.510 --> 22:58.570]  I don't know if Puck's even still out on the outside of the building.
[22:58.650 --> 22:59.630]  He is still up there.
[22:59.670 --> 23:00.550]  They can't tear him down.
[23:01.230 --> 23:02.290]  It's on Houston Street.
[23:02.470 --> 23:12.990]  But having had this experience of moving to the Puck Building and moving back to the hotel, what sort of things came up that, like, in a new venue that maybe you weren't prepared for back then that maybe now...
[23:12.990 --> 23:18.970]  Oh, there were surprises from the people running that particular venue that we weren't expecting.
[23:19.930 --> 23:21.490]  And we've learned.
[23:21.490 --> 23:24.630]  We've learned what to look for as far as trouble signs.
[23:24.770 --> 23:25.250]  Things we didn't...
[23:25.250 --> 23:26.230]  It was only our second conference.
[23:26.230 --> 23:38.010]  We didn't know to be wary of certain things, such as not knowing anything about our community and just basically realizing, oh, my God, we're going to have hackers in here.
[23:38.270 --> 23:45.970]  And they realized that, I think, about two weeks before the conference, even though we had been talking to them almost a year beforehand.
[23:45.970 --> 23:51.230]  And, you know, that's why we went back to the hotel afterwards, because it was familiar space.
[23:51.930 --> 23:56.390]  But again, I think now we've grown out of it, and it's time for something different.
[23:57.150 --> 23:58.970]  Also, there's just so much to be excited about.
[23:59.070 --> 24:05.330]  I mean, we had a certain amount to sort of take for granted when we were in the same venue, you know, conference after conference.
[24:05.470 --> 24:09.610]  But I am really excited about this whole wide-open space, brand-new place.
[24:09.610 --> 24:11.530]  We have to figure everything out over again.
[24:11.710 --> 24:13.510]  And, you know, hackers do that.
[24:13.510 --> 24:17.610]  This is something, this is where we shine, and I am excited about this.
[24:17.710 --> 24:19.570]  It will be, you know, somewhat.
[24:19.770 --> 24:24.010]  It's not going to be a hacker camp, per se, but it's going to be in that direction.
[24:24.730 --> 24:34.430]  It'll be a conference like Previous Hopes, you know, same basic types of venues, speaker tracks, the same size, basically, or slightly larger.
[24:34.950 --> 24:45.610]  But then you'll also have all this other space, space just for hanging out, for being on your computer, for walking around outside, for hanging out in the big, huge open space, and more.
[24:46.530 --> 24:49.050]  So that is... and of course, you can stay on campus, too.
[24:49.230 --> 24:53.530]  So that sort of makes the whole thing into a big camping trip, which I think is going to be really, really neat.
[24:53.650 --> 24:57.310]  I think there's also a lot to be said for the fact that we're going to be in Queens.
[24:57.310 --> 25:02.790]  And Queens County is the most ethnically diverse county in the United States.
[25:02.890 --> 25:16.250]  I think that the diversity of the community is going to be reflected in the diversity of our community in that weekend, and really reflect where we are in a much different way than we had in this hotel.
[25:16.550 --> 25:33.650]  I think that it's going to be a much different experience from a diversity and ethnicity and everything perspective that is just going to be a whole new window on who we are and what That'll be the coolest thing, because we can basically say from the most diverse county in the country,
[25:34.270 --> 25:37.350]  has there ever been a hacker conference in Queens before?
[25:37.590 --> 25:38.670]  I'm not sure if there has been.
[25:38.870 --> 25:44.850]  I mean, technically, Maker Faire is hacker-ish, but it's not really a hacker conference.
[25:45.050 --> 25:47.350]  So this will be history.
[25:47.350 --> 25:50.270]  We do throw some wild parties at our apartment, but I don't think that counts.
[25:50.730 --> 25:51.050]  No, no.
[25:52.190 --> 25:55.550]  That is one thing I missed about the earlier hopes, though, because I've been going for a long time.
[25:55.650 --> 25:59.830]  And when hope itself as an entity was smaller, there was more empty space in the hotel.
[25:59.830 --> 26:03.750]  And there was a lot of space where you could just hang out, sit down, be on your computer for a while.
[26:03.950 --> 26:08.410]  There were areas for, like, just people would set up chairs and watch movies and things like that.
[26:08.490 --> 26:10.070]  And there was a lot more hanging out going on.
[26:10.190 --> 26:15.210]  And as the conference stuff grew, sort of the free use space diminished.
[26:15.210 --> 26:18.450]  And it'll be nice to have that sort of thing going on again, because I really like that.
[26:18.610 --> 26:20.550]  Where were those free spaces you found in the hotel?
[26:21.330 --> 26:22.930]  Those hallways or elevators?
[26:23.170 --> 26:23.750]  I don't think I should tell you.
[26:23.870 --> 26:25.110]  I mean, statutes of limitations.
[26:26.170 --> 26:27.470]  But speaker rooms, yes.
[26:27.590 --> 26:31.370]  But we have so many more rooms now, just basically...
[26:31.370 --> 26:33.330]  I mean, think of college campus where students hang out.
[26:33.410 --> 26:44.510]  Yeah, there's a lot of cafes and not really just coffee shops, but, I mean, places where you'd imagine students studying between classes and stuff like that.
[26:44.510 --> 26:47.950]  Yeah, I mean, that, I think, is just a good fit in general.
[26:48.250 --> 26:53.790]  Like, it was definitely what we were missing as we filled out what rooms we had at the hotel.
[26:54.070 --> 26:55.550]  Yeah, so it'll be history.
[26:56.210 --> 27:00.910]  We're going to have some hiccups and stumbles as we figure things out for the first time.
[27:01.030 --> 27:04.190]  But hiccup and stumble with us, and we'll get through it together.
[27:04.190 --> 27:05.070]  It'll be fun.
[27:05.170 --> 27:05.870]  It'll be an experience.
[27:06.070 --> 27:08.650]  It'll be something you'll remember for the rest of your life, in a good way.
[27:09.410 --> 27:12.110]  All right, now we want to move on to some other things.
[27:12.110 --> 27:15.830]  This is not really very good news.
[27:15.990 --> 27:18.330]  Although, to be honest, I don't really care.
[27:19.630 --> 27:26.930]  We've been working with Google for some time, as some of you know, with the magazine, putting out the Google Play edition.
[27:27.550 --> 27:31.030]  Kind of like the Kindle, kind of like the Barnes & Noble Nook.
[27:31.830 --> 27:34.910]  Google Play was promoting magazines for a while.
[27:34.910 --> 27:39.290]  And then, as Google does, they one day decided, no, we're going to stop.
[27:39.590 --> 27:42.430]  And we're also going to classify you as irrelevant.
[27:42.770 --> 27:46.130]  No longer what we think the future is.
[27:46.630 --> 27:47.670]  Yeah, that's what they did to...
[27:48.410 --> 27:49.730]  I've never heard this phrase before.
[27:49.830 --> 27:50.970]  Tell me if you've heard this phrase.
[27:51.390 --> 27:53.170]  Print replica magazines.
[27:53.350 --> 27:54.370]  That's what they call us.
[27:54.430 --> 27:56.570]  They call us a print replica magazine.
[27:57.250 --> 28:02.490]  Now, first of all, Google, a magazine, by definition, is a print object.
[28:02.490 --> 28:03.730]  You print a magazine.
[28:03.790 --> 28:04.690]  It's on paper.
[28:04.690 --> 28:05.190]  You read it.
[28:05.270 --> 28:06.750]  Yeah, I know there's digital magazines, too.
[28:06.890 --> 28:09.350]  But, you know, that's the replica.
[28:09.550 --> 28:10.430]  We're not the replica.
[28:10.430 --> 28:11.250]  We're the original.
[28:11.250 --> 28:15.790]  You're replicating us by putting something on a screen.
[28:15.790 --> 28:16.850]  And we're all for it.
[28:17.470 --> 28:19.330]  We've been promoting this for quite some time.
[28:19.750 --> 28:26.030]  But they decided, without much warning at all, that they were just going to stop.
[28:26.030 --> 28:37.150]  And those of you who subscribe to the Google Play edition of 2600 probably have received an email saying that that's no longer going to be offered.
[28:37.350 --> 28:42.750]  There's a story on theverge.com, which I just read before coming in.
[28:43.670 --> 28:45.710]  But basically, yeah, don't be surprised.
[28:45.850 --> 28:47.510]  Google is discontinuing another product.
[28:47.670 --> 28:49.230]  This time, it's the...
[28:49.230 --> 28:51.390]  And everybody uses the phrase now, because Google made it up.
[28:51.390 --> 28:59.110]  The print replica magazines in Google News, which basically are the PDF versions of print pages you could view on phones or via desktop.
[29:00.150 --> 29:06.330]  So, Google sent an email to current magazine subscribers to inform them of the change effective immediately.
[29:06.910 --> 29:14.490]  While it won't be offering print layout pages via Google News anymore, Google suggested that readers could still visit a magazine's website.
[29:14.690 --> 29:16.850]  So, yeah, they could certainly do that.
[29:16.970 --> 29:19.530]  And they will certainly find something there.
[29:19.630 --> 29:20.970]  What's a magazine's website?
[29:20.970 --> 29:22.250]  I'm confused.
[29:22.250 --> 29:23.290]  Where do I go for that?
[29:23.470 --> 29:24.150]  I don't get it.
[29:24.470 --> 29:24.770]  Stay tuned.
[29:24.890 --> 29:25.930]  Yeah, we'll explain it.
[29:25.970 --> 29:26.230]  Don't worry.
[29:26.270 --> 29:26.830]  Should I call the operator?
[29:26.990 --> 29:27.970]  Yeah, do that.
[29:28.070 --> 29:28.310]  Go ahead.
[29:28.910 --> 29:30.030]  Publishers can continue...
[29:30.030 --> 29:30.370]  This is Google.
[29:30.690 --> 29:36.290]  Publishers can continue selling content on Google News in the form of paywalled RSS-based publications.
[29:36.750 --> 29:41.630]  It is only the support for the sale of discrete digital files that is changing.
[29:42.970 --> 29:44.110]  Yeah, okay, whatever.
[29:44.630 --> 29:52.470]  Google launched its Play Magazine's app back in 2012, which was then folded into Newsstand before being dumped into Google News.
[29:53.710 --> 30:02.890]  The idea of the magazine replicas was to give publishers control over how their articles were presented and viewed online, retaining the print look and feel.
[30:02.890 --> 30:16.150]  Google, but it got harder and harder because I think it was around a year ago, you couldn't even find the magazine on the Google Play Store.
[30:16.690 --> 30:18.190]  They made it harder and harder.
[30:19.630 --> 30:21.870]  They weren't visible for about a year, I believe.
[30:22.470 --> 30:24.390]  So it's harder and harder to find these things.
[30:24.650 --> 30:26.690]  So I guess it's not really much of a surprise.
[30:26.690 --> 30:31.790]  Anyway, point is, we have our own PDF version that we make available.
[30:31.890 --> 30:33.850]  The last issue was our first, actually.
[30:34.350 --> 30:35.910]  So I guess we kind of saw this coming.
[30:36.430 --> 30:38.330]  And the response has been really, really good.
[30:38.470 --> 30:41.570]  And I'd say better than what Google was doing.
[30:41.990 --> 30:44.370]  We have more people subscribing to that.
[30:44.550 --> 30:46.010]  Actually, we don't have subscriptions up yet.
[30:46.010 --> 30:47.850]  We're trying to figure out how to do that the right way.
[30:48.450 --> 30:52.110]  So the next issue will go up probably tomorrow or the day after.
[30:52.530 --> 30:55.570]  And we'll survive on our own.
[30:55.710 --> 31:06.070]  But this is the risk that you take when you partner with companies like this that just feel they can cut you off at any time and declare that this is not relevant anymore.
[31:06.970 --> 31:14.050]  It's, you know, as a publisher of a magazine, I say it's quite relevant to be able to read something in a particular format.
[31:14.050 --> 31:18.370]  And, you know, it's sad that they don't get that.
[31:19.410 --> 31:35.190]  And I'm sure that when you finally signed up with Google Play to distribute the magazine on that platform, they had some esoteric terms of service in terms of use for putting the magazine on there that granted unto themselves the right to discontinue the service at any time.
[31:35.950 --> 31:36.270]  Of course, yes.
[31:36.510 --> 31:38.810]  And, you know, this is what they do.
[31:38.930 --> 31:43.850]  This is the kind of thing that Jason Scott is always talking about here and the danger of that.
[31:44.050 --> 31:51.010]  And relying solely on that would have been absolutely devastating for a magazine like 2600 or any other magazine.
[31:51.230 --> 31:54.970]  So thank God it is a physical magazine.
[31:55.290 --> 31:57.070]  It's always been a physical magazine.
[31:57.250 --> 32:02.230]  And there are many, many other avenues, you know, by which our readers can obtain it.
[32:02.610 --> 32:30.310]  I think it's really disingenuous of these technology companies to expand horizontally in their dominance of the market and take a lot of customers under the auspices of we're going to be your solution to everything, like sort of this integrated life of our ecosystem like Apple would do with all of their products and software and services and Android is much in the same way.
[32:30.490 --> 32:39.390]  I just think that people are presuming that they're going to do a good job because Google has X, Y, or Z reputation for search.
[32:39.550 --> 32:56.130]  But that does not mean they're good at documents a la Google Wave, you know, all these different products they expanded very quickly into to dominate, sucking up a lot of customer and market share, but not actually doing a good job, not actually solving the problem.
[32:56.130 --> 33:07.010]  Maybe throwing a set budget at it, and then letting it flounder for years, and then cutting people off like this even worse, especially for publishers.
[33:07.330 --> 33:16.570]  But it's that expand at all costs, like venture capital thing where, well, we have to say we're in crypto right now.
[33:16.590 --> 33:17.690]  So we're in crypto.
[33:17.910 --> 33:18.730]  It's Google crypto.
[33:19.050 --> 33:21.870]  Don't you have your G coin yet?
[33:22.030 --> 33:24.090]  I mean, that's the kind of attitude.
[33:24.630 --> 33:38.570]  I think the other thing that it's making me think of that's really putting me in mind of is that much vaunted pivot to video a few years back and the decision on the parts of Facebook, Google, what have you that people were not reading anymore, they were watching video.
[33:38.770 --> 33:44.850]  So people like all sorts of online journalism had to shift their staffing modes because of the alleged pivot to video.
[33:45.150 --> 33:59.830]  And that really decimated a lot of newsrooms, it decimated a lot of writing staffs, and people were not there for the pivot to video, but we're left with that having happened in this decision that was made on the part of the corporation effectively trickling down to the reader or watcher,
[34:00.030 --> 34:00.510]  I suppose.
[34:00.690 --> 34:02.830]  It's not necessarily in touch with what the magazine is saying.
[34:02.830 --> 34:11.050]  I can tell you, that does not always work because they might assume they know what the end consumer wants when they don't.
[34:11.170 --> 34:14.710]  And they're just simply left frustrated and feeling powerless.
[34:14.710 --> 34:27.290]  And this also really burns me as someone who's made a living from freelance creative work at various points is we're living in an era now where there are people whose entire livelihoods go through one service out there.
[34:27.370 --> 34:32.050]  There are people who make their livings on YouTube or on Instagram or, you know, Etsy or any of these other things.
[34:32.250 --> 34:40.750]  And anytime you're using a service, you're always prone to that switch just being pulled, just being, you know, cut off from everything that you're trying to do from your entire livelihood.
[34:41.630 --> 34:50.370]  And anytime you're depending on a computer that's somewhere out of your own physical reach that you're that your hand does not control the button on, you're always prone to losing that.
[34:50.510 --> 34:55.210]  We had an interesting experience this past week as well.
[34:55.470 --> 34:58.490]  Facebook cut off all links to 2600.
[34:58.690 --> 35:00.090]  It was really bizarre.
[35:00.250 --> 35:01.530]  We have three Facebook groups.
[35:01.870 --> 35:18.910]  And if any one of them tried or anybody actually on Facebook tried to post a link to anything that we ran, it was it was deemed blocked or forbidden because that site, that website, our website, was violating the terms of service of Facebook.
[35:19.130 --> 35:20.610]  And we could not believe this.
[35:20.870 --> 35:22.030]  We're violating it.
[35:22.110 --> 35:26.290]  You have people like Alex Jones and neo-Nazis.
[35:26.670 --> 35:27.730]  And we're the ones.
[35:27.850 --> 35:30.170]  A website that doesn't even have hacking material on it.
[35:30.250 --> 35:33.010]  It has basically editions of this show and a lot of history.
[35:33.550 --> 35:34.910]  And we're blocked.
[35:35.030 --> 35:36.470]  So we were pretty outraged by this.
[35:36.530 --> 35:38.450]  And a lot of people were outraged by it as well.
[35:38.450 --> 35:47.050]  Then it turned out an engineer came and fixed it and said, oh, yeah, the automation just went a little haywire as far as blocking things.
[35:47.210 --> 35:48.170]  Sorry for the inconvenience.
[35:48.290 --> 35:51.170]  It was so refreshing to hear a human being say that.
[35:51.270 --> 35:56.310]  Take a little bit of responsibility and fix something because the automation didn't work.
[35:56.710 --> 35:57.630]  And that's the thing, too.
[35:57.790 --> 36:08.210]  It's like the one defense against having your stuff switched off at any time by people who control these big systems is to keep maintaining your own website, your own presence, your own alternatives.
[36:08.450 --> 36:14.610]  I mean, if people want the digital edition of 2600, they can go to 2600.com and find the other editions that are still out there, the Kindle and whatnot.
[36:14.790 --> 36:23.550]  But if the people in control of the platform decide, no, we don't want a link to your separate websites anymore, that's the last line of freaking defense about this.
[36:23.550 --> 36:35.570]  And as to the Facebook issue, it is really refreshing to hear somebody like an engineer come out and say the automation was sort of overblocking what it's supposed to block and not doing its job.
[36:35.710 --> 36:40.070]  I mean, this is also the kind of thing we've been talking about for years and years and years on this program.
[36:40.230 --> 36:55.670]  And then to go back to the Google issue, what's particularly dangerous to me here is that anytime a big company like Google or any kind of platform that provides a service, as Rob noted, that many people have come to rely upon decides to terminate that particular service,
[36:55.830 --> 36:58.590]  what they're establishing is a precedent or a course of conduct.
[36:58.890 --> 37:06.310]  And then that becomes the basis on which they will then terminate additional services on which others rely in the future.
[37:06.710 --> 37:14.830]  And there's one person on this show, I won't name names, who's constantly railing about the irrelevance of email and how people don't use email anymore.
[37:14.830 --> 37:16.730]  And everybody should use email.
[37:17.070 --> 37:20.190]  You know, why do I have to look at signal and telegram?
[37:20.230 --> 37:20.930]  Hold on a second.
[37:21.110 --> 37:23.930]  I don't know if this is me or somebody else, but...
[37:23.930 --> 37:29.710]  Are you... why do you feel... are you... I'm not railing about the irrelevance of email because I think email is very relevant.
[37:30.030 --> 37:35.370]  Well, the irrelevance, the perceived irrelevance of email to others, perhaps I should say.
[37:35.490 --> 37:37.450]  There are some people... I'm railing about others.
[37:37.450 --> 37:38.110]  That's what I'm doing.
[37:38.550 --> 37:40.090]  And yes, it's very frustrating.
[37:40.290 --> 37:40.390]  That's true.
[37:40.570 --> 37:47.630]  It's very frustrating when you're trying to reach people and they're not reading what you say because you're not reaching them on the right platform.
[37:47.630 --> 37:49.730]  Now, you could say, Emmanuel, you're a hypocrite.
[37:49.730 --> 37:53.310]  You say the same exact thing about the people who invite you to weddings on Facebook.
[37:53.790 --> 37:55.290]  And yes, I have been saying that.
[37:55.670 --> 37:57.150]  I'm sorry, I didn't make it.
[37:57.210 --> 38:00.070]  I didn't see your damn invite because it was on a platform I don't use.
[38:00.170 --> 38:00.970]  But that's a company.
[38:01.310 --> 38:01.430]  All right?
[38:01.530 --> 38:02.210]  Facebook is a company.
[38:02.310 --> 38:02.950]  Twitter is a company.
[38:03.090 --> 38:03.850]  Instagram is a company.
[38:03.990 --> 38:05.030]  Email is not a company.
[38:05.190 --> 38:05.970]  It's a thing.
[38:06.130 --> 38:07.330]  It's like a phone call.
[38:07.550 --> 38:11.790]  You can pick your company or your means of getting it out there.
[38:12.170 --> 38:14.470]  And, you know, everyone has that.
[38:15.330 --> 38:17.150]  Pretty much everyone has an email address.
[38:17.290 --> 38:18.590]  Does anyone in this room not have one?
[38:18.750 --> 38:20.190]  The question is, are you reading it?
[38:20.790 --> 38:26.530]  As I was mentioning, there are some people on the show that like to go on tirades about email and things like that.
[38:27.410 --> 38:27.850]  So...
[38:27.850 --> 38:29.110]  We'll find who that is.
[38:29.390 --> 38:30.470]  Yeah, we'll figure it out.
[38:30.530 --> 38:33.530]  We'll have an investigation launch, maybe form a committee after the show.
[38:34.470 --> 38:45.250]  But there will come a point at some point in the future, because of all these other encrypted messaging platforms, perhaps they are going to overtake email.
[38:45.390 --> 38:46.530]  There will become a time...
[38:46.530 --> 38:47.690]  Why can't they work with email?
[38:47.850 --> 38:49.350]  I don't understand why it has to be a choice.
[38:49.550 --> 38:49.570]  They could.
[38:49.570 --> 38:55.670]  But my point is, there will come a time when Google decides that Gmail is no longer worth running.
[38:55.790 --> 39:04.790]  And the billions of people around the planet who have relied on Gmail for their email addresses are going to be given, you know, a month's notice, whatever it is.
[39:04.790 --> 39:08.670]  I mean, we see this, you know, very recently with Yahoo in the email messaging groups, too.
[39:09.690 --> 39:10.170]  So...
[39:10.170 --> 39:14.430]  I... this thing about email is over, just... it becomes popular.
[39:14.750 --> 39:16.710]  It, like, resurfaces every now and then.
[39:16.830 --> 39:20.070]  Every couple years, somebody wants to predict that, like, email is dead.
[39:20.350 --> 39:25.790]  But I would argue anything of consequence getting done in the world probably happened over email.
[39:25.990 --> 39:28.130]  And, you know, how many times have we heard this?
[39:28.230 --> 39:29.270]  Radio is dead.
[39:29.530 --> 39:30.790]  Print media is dead.
[39:30.990 --> 39:31.930]  Email is dead.
[39:32.170 --> 39:34.370]  Instant messaging is... I mean, come on already.
[39:34.950 --> 39:37.350]  How about these blanket statements are dead?
[39:37.470 --> 39:38.270]  Because it's ridiculous.
[39:38.550 --> 39:39.830]  People have different needs.
[39:39.990 --> 39:41.970]  People have different ways of expressing themselves.
[39:42.230 --> 39:44.870]  But I think there needs to be something that ties them together.
[39:44.870 --> 39:56.130]  When everybody is split it off into their own little fiefdom or standard and they don't talk to each other, that's when you really literally stop communicating.
[39:56.130 --> 39:57.830]  And what's to be gained from that?
[39:58.390 --> 39:59.650]  Not really much at all.
[39:59.970 --> 40:09.950]  I think, you know, we're just going to be stuck, you know, in our own little bubbles, echo chambers, swiping through photographs, looking at two or three second clips of videos.
[40:10.110 --> 40:11.090]  Which you can still do.
[40:11.090 --> 40:15.070]  But, you know, why cut yourself off from the people that aren't doing the exact same thing?
[40:16.190 --> 40:18.110]  I'm not as down on it.
[40:18.170 --> 40:20.850]  I think, like, we have a lot of tools.
[40:20.910 --> 40:25.510]  And I think that what we are sacrificing are the advantage, the perceived advantage is convenience.
[40:25.510 --> 40:31.030]  And we need to stop telling ourselves that it is so convenient that I'm willing to sacrifice X, Y, or Z, right?
[40:31.490 --> 40:43.550]  And also, I think that perhaps these platforms will have users that decide, well, I like this part of it, but I want to make it work this way.
[40:43.630 --> 41:00.510]  And people will use the APIs and the ways that you can interact with the various platforms to their advantage and in ways that serve them as opposed to feeling at the effect and as though, well, it's convenient, so I'll put up with having service discontinued or whatever the consequence is,
[41:00.750 --> 41:03.570]  privacy rated and so on and so forth.
[41:03.690 --> 41:11.550]  But I don't want to feel too disempowered over it because we can always return to these protocols.
[41:11.690 --> 41:15.590]  As he has talked about, email is, it's a thing.
[41:15.750 --> 41:16.290]  It's a protocol.
[41:16.290 --> 41:19.170]  It's something that we can all take advantage of it.
[41:19.310 --> 41:37.070]  And I'm with Alex 100% that, yeah, you know, all of the Gmail users could basically get a notice someday that this is no longer a protocol that Google feels like administering because it doesn't fit into a spreadsheet and work out to their bottom line being whole.
[41:37.310 --> 41:54.050]  So, I mean, at least if you're compelled to build and run things yourself and educate yourself about it, sacrificing, yes, some convenience, at least at that point, you're not at the effect of some bottom line somewhere.
[41:54.250 --> 41:55.930]  And there's precedent for this in Google.
[41:56.150 --> 42:00.170]  Google Talk started ages ago when everyone was instant messaging each other.
[42:00.290 --> 42:08.010]  And it was based on the open source, the open platform Jabber, which could interoperate with all sorts of different services and all sorts of different clients.
[42:08.090 --> 42:09.010]  And it got popular.
[42:09.010 --> 42:12.610]  And then once it got popular, Google decided, now we're cutting off all that Jabber nonsense.
[42:12.610 --> 42:14.210]  And you're just in our little walled garden now.
[42:14.650 --> 42:16.590]  I still have Google Talk, though.
[42:16.710 --> 42:20.970]  It still works on my trillion window because that's using...
[42:20.970 --> 42:22.990]  I think it's interfacing with Jabber or something.
[42:23.650 --> 42:29.710]  It just comes up and I see people on there and they're communicating with me through some kind of standard.
[42:29.990 --> 42:31.270]  Yeah, Jabber is really interesting.
[42:31.510 --> 42:42.470]  If you look at all the chat protocols, there's a great graphic on Wikipedia that shows you the interrelatedness of all the different chat platforms and then all the protocols they're based on.
[42:42.730 --> 42:49.330]  And it shows like Telegram and all the sort of popular things that people are using on the encrypted side today.
[42:49.430 --> 42:54.310]  But there's also these legacy systems like AIM, which was running the OSCAR protocol.
[42:54.630 --> 42:56.870]  And then, of course, Jabber with XMPP.
[42:56.950 --> 43:00.450]  And Google Talk was running on the XMPP protocol for a while.
[43:00.590 --> 43:03.490]  And then that, I think, as you said, like forked or diverged.
[43:03.790 --> 43:08.610]  But Jabber alone is really interesting because it sort of stopped being maintained and is kind of idling.
[43:08.870 --> 43:11.450]  And there's so many others to choose from.
[43:11.590 --> 43:28.250]  The connective tissue, like what you're talking about in the client side, like Trillian or chat programs, the beauty of some of those, being able to connect them all together, is creating that unified communications across platforms.
[43:28.430 --> 43:32.690]  But unified communications is something that is the jargon of enterprises.
[43:33.230 --> 43:36.090]  It's not something that we're all independently working on.
[43:36.210 --> 43:38.150]  But there's a lot of promise there.
[43:38.310 --> 43:43.150]  It's just people aren't sort of taking advantage of the ability to customize it.
[43:43.250 --> 43:48.590]  And they're sort of accepting what some engineer decides is their in-house version of it.
[43:49.230 --> 43:55.470]  But it's all around you as far as being able to have text messages go to your chat client or vice versa.
[43:55.550 --> 44:02.470]  You know, we can design these things to really be effective for us, but we need to focus on them and actually build them.
[44:02.570 --> 44:06.130]  It should be up to the user how they want to interface all these things.
[44:06.210 --> 44:08.510]  You should never be told you can't do that.
[44:08.670 --> 44:17.490]  You know, it's... if you want your instant messages to go to your phone or to your email or wherever, there should be a way to configure that.
[44:17.550 --> 44:21.450]  And I'm just tired of people saying this... nobody does it this way anymore.
[44:21.550 --> 44:23.050]  And you have to change.
[44:23.210 --> 44:24.730]  You have to... I mean, change is good.
[44:24.850 --> 44:25.730]  Not against change.
[44:26.110 --> 44:29.170]  Just against change that is not what I want.
[44:29.310 --> 44:36.930]  And that happens more often than... I just... I don't like being told that just because it's newer, it's better.
[44:37.210 --> 44:38.350]  Oftentimes, it's not.
[44:38.510 --> 44:41.970]  Oftentimes, it's an inconvenience and something doesn't work that used to work.
[44:42.130 --> 44:44.270]  And we shouldn't have to just blindly accept that.
[44:44.330 --> 44:48.210]  We should be able to have a voice and to be able to say, I still want this feature.
[44:48.310 --> 44:49.350]  Don't tell me it's not possible.
[44:49.850 --> 44:50.290]  Yeah.
[44:50.510 --> 44:55.910]  And things that are free that you could do yourself or that are nominally expensive.
[44:56.070 --> 45:04.590]  I mean, imagine something that you're told is free, like a hosted email account, but it's every email you have to pay a certain amount.
[45:04.970 --> 45:06.490]  It's all of a sudden told.
[45:06.710 --> 45:09.230]  Well, you would think about using that service in a different way.
[45:09.390 --> 45:15.470]  Granted, they're doing it through ads, which is a different way of monetizing that service and may work for them.
[45:15.710 --> 45:23.330]  But essentially, we need to maybe scrutinize our own acceptance of these terms because there is a cost to a lot of it.
[45:23.610 --> 45:37.190]  And you wouldn't pay for something like that to then be in this contract and abusive relationship just to use something that is essentially free.
[45:38.930 --> 45:42.490]  My thing is that we should demand this upfront of companies.
[45:42.490 --> 45:50.970]  Make it known what we want, whether it's tethering your phone and using data and using your mobile connectivity in the ways you want.
[45:51.310 --> 46:01.610]  But do it, by golly, do it upfront and sooner rather than before they can lobby and start paying and charging you for every email and so on.
[46:01.690 --> 46:11.310]  Because eventually, they find a way to monetize the things you like and then force legislation that requires you to pay too much for it.
[46:11.410 --> 46:25.950]  And I think we really need to be on the forefront of what services are popular, what people like, but also head off any attempt to take that away from you and turn it into some sort of revenue stream.
[46:26.070 --> 46:27.230]  Because they have enough revenue streams.
[46:27.390 --> 46:28.470]  Do you still use email?
[46:28.470 --> 46:30.250]  Give us a call if you still use a phone.
[46:30.330 --> 46:32.610]  That is 212-209-2877.
[46:32.730 --> 46:37.610]  We'd like to hear your opinions on this rather passionate discussion we're having here.
[46:37.610 --> 46:41.550]  It seems like we've been fighting this fight for as long as we've been around.
[46:41.550 --> 46:51.010]  Always trying to get the individual, the power that we feel they deserve, up against the company that dictates what it is that you will and will not be able to do.
[46:51.170 --> 46:54.050]  So I see little that's new here.
[46:54.050 --> 46:56.130]  Just the technology is changing.
[46:56.130 --> 47:00.910]  But I think we have to continue to stand up for what we believe we have the right to have.
[47:01.070 --> 47:06.970]  You know, I think the undercurrent of what Emmanuel is constantly railing against here is that there... Why do you use the word railing?
[47:07.050 --> 47:08.790]  That just makes me sound like a crazy person.
[47:08.890 --> 47:09.830]  But all right, fine, whatever.
[47:10.090 --> 47:17.270]  Kyle just used the phrase, by golly, you know, which I think that might be the first time that that phrase was ever uttered on this show.
[47:17.410 --> 47:20.110]  I don't see it on the list of the prohibited words from the FCC.
[47:20.110 --> 47:21.170]  We can check the transcript.
[47:21.490 --> 47:21.490]  Yet.
[47:21.930 --> 47:23.190]  But who knows?
[47:23.330 --> 47:24.230]  There'll be somebody complaining.
[47:24.230 --> 47:24.690]  No, we'll check.
[47:24.850 --> 47:27.570]  You know, Junst writes down every single word that we say.
[47:28.090 --> 47:29.050]  He's our archivist.
[47:29.190 --> 47:31.190]  And so he can check that for us later.
[47:31.190 --> 47:31.990]  All right.
[47:32.090 --> 47:38.330]  Well, the undercurrent of what I think you are talking about continually is that there are too many of these systems.
[47:38.590 --> 47:40.710]  You know, you've got signal messages coming in, telegram messages coming in.
[47:40.710 --> 47:41.530]  No, no, that's not the problem.
[47:41.650 --> 47:42.430]  It's not that there are too many.
[47:42.430 --> 47:44.330]  It's that they don't talk to each other.
[47:44.490 --> 47:46.410]  I'd like to have 100,000 of them.
[47:46.490 --> 47:46.750]  Sure.
[47:46.970 --> 48:08.030]  Well, and that's my point, is that I think if somebody were to develop, and perhaps this would be the subject of an interesting hope talk that somebody could submit, you know, coming in, you know, the next couple of days, tomorrow, in fact, somebody could develop some form of open source aggregator that takes all of the information from these particular clients,
[48:08.230 --> 48:11.530]  puts it into one spot where you can read all of it together.
[48:12.810 --> 48:15.430]  You know, that would be extraordinarily helpful because...
[48:15.430 --> 48:16.130]  That's called the NSA.
[48:17.110 --> 48:19.910]  Yeah, I know, but nobody has access to all of that, you know.
[48:20.570 --> 48:24.430]  Alex, just talking about in the abstract, like that is incredibly complicated what you just said.
[48:24.530 --> 48:28.850]  I mean, unified communications is something that has got a lot of attention.
[48:28.850 --> 48:36.150]  It's been a buzzword in mobile and other telecommunications technology arenas, but it's incredible.
[48:36.490 --> 48:38.490]  Like, how is that data secured?
[48:38.810 --> 48:41.590]  That one place that all those communications go?
[48:41.770 --> 48:43.910]  You know, that's just one little question.
[48:43.910 --> 48:50.470]  So it is an incredibly nuanced thing to talk about, but worthy, certainly.
[48:50.470 --> 48:58.090]  And then my follow-up point to that is that people often forget that you can layer encryption on top of whatever you're using.
[48:58.330 --> 48:59.970]  I mean, PGP works in text messages.
[49:00.230 --> 49:02.930]  PGP works in anyone listed in Messenger or work in Snapchat.
[49:03.530 --> 49:10.890]  Perhaps that's how you could secure it, is to have an extra layer of encryption built on top of this unified communication client.
[49:11.330 --> 49:13.250]  That's what would be super interesting to me.
[49:13.370 --> 49:14.370]  We have a phone call.
[49:14.450 --> 49:14.830]  Good evening.
[49:14.970 --> 49:15.550]  You're on Off the Hook.
[49:15.550 --> 49:17.130]  Oh, good evening.
[49:17.330 --> 49:20.210]  Barry from the People's Republic of Syosset calling.
[49:20.330 --> 49:20.690]  Oh, wow.
[49:21.290 --> 49:21.910]  Yeah.
[49:22.010 --> 49:31.390]  You know, I happened to... I studied telephony in school, and Google will be broken up, so don't worry about that.
[49:31.390 --> 49:50.550]  I spoke with a gentleman who worked for the Bell System, and 1983, when the Bells were broken up, that was one of the darkest days in his life, because there was supposed to be more competition and everything, but the quality of the network went way down.
[49:51.210 --> 49:54.950]  As far as this stuff, I'm on my classic iPhone 4.
[49:54.950 --> 49:58.350]  I'm on 3G, hanging on by my fingernails.
[49:58.490 --> 49:58.690]  Wow.
[49:59.010 --> 50:06.310]  And, yeah, I have the technical wherewithal to maintain this unit.
[50:06.510 --> 50:09.130]  I cannot get the schematic diagram.
[50:09.410 --> 50:11.070]  I cannot get parts.
[50:11.290 --> 50:13.130]  I cannot get anything for this.
[50:13.230 --> 50:19.330]  And I'm going to have to drop kick it soon, because 3G is going the way of the dodo bird soon.
[50:19.450 --> 50:24.990]  Can I ask you what it is about the iPhone 4 and 3G that makes you want to hold on to it so firmly?
[50:25.550 --> 50:27.130]  Well, it's nice and small.
[50:27.330 --> 50:33.910]  It's like the first classic incarnation of the current iPhone, the classic metal casing.
[50:34.370 --> 50:37.070]  I'm into, like, classic design.
[50:37.070 --> 50:39.350]  It's like a 67 Corvette.
[50:39.630 --> 50:40.630]  You know, it's classic.
[50:41.910 --> 50:43.750]  Let's say a 64 Corvette.
[50:43.870 --> 50:51.530]  No, imagine if you couldn't drive certain cars anymore, if they just didn't work after a certain year, and they were incompatible with the road.
[50:51.530 --> 50:52.810]  That's what we're talking about.
[50:53.510 --> 51:00.070]  Well, you know, I'm getting ready to, as part of my New Year's resolutions, I am going to look for another phone.
[51:00.210 --> 51:06.990]  But I'm annoyed because they're just discontinuing it because they don't want to support it.
[51:07.130 --> 51:10.650]  And they're cutting out these cell phone towers for 3G.
[51:11.010 --> 51:14.030]  And it's just I'm annoyed because it's obsolete.
[51:14.370 --> 51:18.390]  It was the top of the line six years ago, seven years ago.
[51:18.710 --> 51:21.790]  And people stood in line for two days to get it.
[51:21.930 --> 51:23.630]  And now it's chopped liver.
[51:25.290 --> 51:28.430]  You don't I don't like to just abandon something.
[51:28.610 --> 51:28.770]  Right.
[51:29.450 --> 51:32.790]  It's just it isn't actually it's not fast enough anymore.
[51:33.050 --> 51:41.570]  You know, if something becomes obsolete, though, if the same company exists that that sold it to you in the first place, I think they should replace it for nothing.
[51:41.910 --> 51:46.170]  You know, they're the ones making something that they sold you completely useless.
[51:46.170 --> 51:48.130]  So I think they need to make that right.
[51:48.730 --> 51:49.790]  I agree with you.
[51:49.950 --> 51:50.230]  Totally.
[51:50.450 --> 51:50.730]  Totally.
[51:51.130 --> 51:57.750]  I just don't want to give up something that used to work well and doesn't now because I'm in a different time.
[51:58.330 --> 51:59.750]  And it's just annoying.
[51:59.910 --> 52:04.650]  You know, I have an old washing machine that I like, but I can't get a part for it.
[52:04.710 --> 52:08.350]  So I got to chuck it because I can't get a $30 part for it.
[52:08.450 --> 52:10.190]  I got to get rid of a washing machine.
[52:10.390 --> 52:17.250]  And I got to buy an $800 machine because so and so doesn't want to keep a part in stock.
[52:17.450 --> 52:19.830]  You know, that's that's got to be solvable.
[52:20.010 --> 52:21.630]  That part has to exist someplace.
[52:22.270 --> 52:23.210]  Well, it does.
[52:23.430 --> 52:24.090]  But it's on me.
[52:24.250 --> 52:27.030]  It's on the Internet, you know, on the World Wide Web.
[52:27.310 --> 52:32.750]  And they jacked it up because they know that morons like me want that part.
[52:34.410 --> 52:36.850]  Well, I you know, I hear you guys.
[52:37.050 --> 52:37.250]  Totally.
[52:37.290 --> 52:38.170]  I agree with you.
[52:38.270 --> 52:43.570]  I'm going to get a new phone, but I'm annoyed because I'm just getting to love this phone.
[52:44.170 --> 52:51.330]  And, you know, I just don't want to abandon my my wife because she's a little more wrinkled than she used to be.
[52:51.610 --> 52:51.730]  Wow.
[52:51.890 --> 52:52.130]  Okay.
[52:52.130 --> 52:57.030]  Well, that's that's definitely a direction to to go there.
[52:58.450 --> 52:59.190]  Well, okay.
[52:59.390 --> 52:59.670]  Thank you.
[52:59.810 --> 53:01.570]  Thank you for your perspectives on technology.
[53:01.570 --> 53:03.290]  I think they're they're most enlightening.
[53:03.490 --> 53:07.470]  And now we we pretty much know where the boundary of conversations are in that person.
[53:08.730 --> 53:10.170]  But yeah, I get it.
[53:10.250 --> 53:10.710]  I get it.
[53:11.050 --> 53:18.950]  It's it's, you know, hanging on to something because of aesthetic reasons, because you like the way it looks, because you like the way it operates.
[53:19.190 --> 53:22.370]  Should be something that, you know, is is within your rights.
[53:22.770 --> 53:28.270]  I dare say that Barry is a unique character in Syosset, or as he calls it, the People's Republic of Syosset.
[53:28.270 --> 53:31.630]  He may, in fact, be the only character in Syosset with a 3G phone.
[53:32.090 --> 53:33.430]  Well, I think that's kind of sad.
[53:33.470 --> 53:34.130]  And I doubt it, too.
[53:34.210 --> 53:35.670]  I think there's a lot of people with 3G phones.
[53:35.790 --> 53:36.230]  You think so?
[53:36.390 --> 53:39.470]  Well, my phone occasionally goes back into 3G mode.
[53:39.630 --> 53:42.130]  And once I saw it say G, just, I guess, that's 1G.
[53:42.390 --> 53:43.730]  It's like the Silicon Valley of Nassau County.
[53:43.870 --> 53:44.490]  I doubt it.
[53:44.590 --> 53:44.830]  Mm-hmm.
[53:44.870 --> 53:49.470]  Well, you know, if it works, if the technology can work, people should be able to still use it.
[53:49.570 --> 53:54.830]  And if it becomes something that's completely a bad idea for one reason or another, then replace it.
[53:54.950 --> 53:58.290]  And replace it for your customers as well, because you're the one changing the rules.
[53:58.490 --> 54:08.510]  I would also say that you ought to perhaps support third party and authorized servicers, like repair and so on and so forth.
[54:08.850 --> 54:21.770]  And so that, you know, people who are interested in creating a business model around repairing old devices have that opportunity to make business off of something that is not in your current business model.
[54:21.830 --> 54:26.090]  And I think that's the key, is that this is evidence of planned obsolescence.
[54:26.210 --> 54:32.910]  The washing machine, that one part, I'm sure, is something that they knew about after 10 machines came back with the same problem.
[54:32.910 --> 54:35.150]  I mean, you see this with automobiles all the time.
[54:35.310 --> 54:46.370]  If you talk to a mechanic about a certain model car, they'll be able to tell you about one particular thing that is always going to be expensive or always goes wrong with it because they've seen it over and over and over again.
[54:46.690 --> 54:56.810]  But as far as spare parts, I mean, this is where 3D printing, I think, is a really interesting alternative if you can, if you can get copies of parts and so on.
[54:56.910 --> 54:59.430]  And there are a lot of repair collectives now.
[54:59.690 --> 55:01.990]  People interested in just fixing old stuff.
[55:02.590 --> 55:10.110]  And it just, as I said, the business model has always been about more profits on the next thing.
[55:10.230 --> 55:18.490]  And if they could optimize the software and develop the software such that the older hardware work well enough, they would.
[55:18.650 --> 55:20.750]  But that's not where they're putting their engineering prowess.
[55:20.830 --> 55:24.710]  They're putting it into the next thing that they want to sell you because that's where they're going to profit.
[55:24.870 --> 55:27.590]  And they've already spent those profits in the past.
[55:27.750 --> 55:32.350]  I think there are about a dozen ideas for things to do at Hope concerning this topic.
[55:32.590 --> 55:35.370]  And I hope people write in with more ideas.
[55:35.550 --> 55:39.090]  OTH at 2600.com is our email address.
[55:39.430 --> 55:40.350]  Yes, email.
[55:40.730 --> 55:41.230]  Use it.
[55:41.370 --> 55:43.090]  It's a valuable way to communicate.
[55:43.290 --> 55:44.290]  It's an amazing way to communicate.
[55:45.130 --> 55:47.710]  You can also tweet at us, Hacker Radio Show.
[55:47.870 --> 55:48.230]  We're there.
[55:48.550 --> 55:50.030]  And Mastodon, Rob?
[55:50.330 --> 55:53.170]  Yes, we're at Hacker Radio Show on mastodon.social.
[55:53.170 --> 55:53.950]  The same name.
[55:54.130 --> 55:54.390]  Yes.
[55:54.550 --> 55:54.690]  Okay.
[55:54.830 --> 55:57.050]  And we have 2600 Facebook groups.
[55:57.210 --> 55:57.950]  There's three of them at least.
[55:58.450 --> 56:03.430]  And all kinds of other digital technological ways of communicating.
[56:03.570 --> 56:03.990]  But email.
[56:04.170 --> 56:08.010]  Email is basically the spine, I think, that links us all together.
[56:08.750 --> 56:09.130]  All right.
[56:09.210 --> 56:10.510]  That's going to do it for us this week.
[56:10.690 --> 56:11.330]  It's a lot of fun.
[56:11.410 --> 56:12.450]  Thank you, everybody, for calling.
[56:12.630 --> 56:13.470]  Sorry we didn't get to everybody.
[56:14.110 --> 56:16.750]  And please keep listening to WBAI New York.
[56:17.270 --> 56:19.030]  We will see you again next week.
[56:19.130 --> 56:19.310]  Good night.
[58:51.600 --> 58:58.740]  Welcome to 2020 Talks, where we track the 2020 election process from the studios of KHOI in the heart of Iowa.