[00:00.000 --> 00:01.100]  Let's look at this.
[00:01.240 --> 00:02.860]  Let's figure out how do we get stronger.
[00:03.040 --> 00:04.460]  I wish we had more time.
[00:04.660 --> 00:05.560]  We will do it together.
[00:05.920 --> 00:07.220]  Thank you very much, Laura.
[00:07.380 --> 00:07.740]  You're welcome.
[00:08.000 --> 00:09.120]  And thank all of you.
[00:09.480 --> 00:10.180]  Stay with us.
[00:10.280 --> 00:13.060]  We will be with you again next week.
[00:19.470 --> 00:26.630]  And you are listening to WBAI New York, 99.5 FM, WBAI.org everywhere.
[00:27.230 --> 00:29.450]  The time is just about 7 p.m.
[00:29.470 --> 00:32.690]  on a Wednesday evening, which means it's time for Off the Hook.
[00:40.850 --> 00:44.890]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:45.890 --> 00:50.450]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[00:51.130 --> 00:55.750]  We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
[00:56.010 --> 00:58.670]  Bum Diddly Bum, but the best, expect the worst.
[00:59.270 --> 01:01.150]  I hope that's understood.
[01:01.430 --> 01:02.230]  Bum Diddly Bum!
[01:32.420 --> 01:34.440]  And a very good evening to you.
[01:34.880 --> 01:36.740]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:37.440 --> 01:38.040]  Rob T.
[01:38.180 --> 01:39.640]  Firefly here with you.
[01:41.100 --> 01:42.740]  And I'm joined in the studio by Gila.
[01:42.920 --> 01:43.140]  Hello.
[01:43.780 --> 01:46.780]  And on the phone, we should have Emmanuel and Kyle.
[01:48.600 --> 01:49.080]  How you doing?
[01:49.600 --> 01:51.000]  Hi, how's the weather down there?
[01:51.640 --> 01:53.400]  Oh, the weather is middling.
[01:54.920 --> 01:59.040]  But apparently there's all kinds of other action happening elsewhere in this city.
[01:59.460 --> 02:03.600]  The subways are in some kind of knot, so Alex, though he's on his way, will be late.
[02:03.600 --> 02:05.540]  So we get to talk about him until he gets here.
[02:07.020 --> 02:09.340]  Yeah, that's, I guess, what we are compelled to do.
[02:09.440 --> 02:10.880]  What do you mean the subways are in a knot?
[02:11.000 --> 02:11.580]  What does that mean?
[02:13.100 --> 02:15.220]  Apparently there are massive delays.
[02:15.720 --> 02:20.300]  There are basically a couple lines that are just not working right now, and that's shut off an entire section of the city.
[02:21.500 --> 02:24.820]  And there are also problems on several other trains.
[02:24.940 --> 02:30.840]  There are multiple impacts on, like, six train lines and delays on another four and planned work on another one.
[02:30.840 --> 02:33.960]  So basically about half the train lines are not running appropriately right now.
[02:35.000 --> 02:36.740]  Is Alex responsible for this?
[02:37.180 --> 02:37.660]  Yes.
[02:37.860 --> 02:39.240]  He is actually...
[02:41.820 --> 02:43.840]  He's got his little train set, and he just...
[02:43.840 --> 02:44.540]  Something's wrong.
[02:44.740 --> 02:46.800]  So as soon as he fixes, the trains will be here.
[02:47.940 --> 02:51.920]  That's a relief, that it is incompetence-related delays.
[02:52.960 --> 02:55.620]  Well, we're actually not in New York.
[02:55.720 --> 02:59.220]  I guess, fortunately, for this purpose, we're in a different city.
[02:59.360 --> 02:59.920]  We're in Montreal.
[03:01.420 --> 03:05.900]  It's currently two minutes after seven o'clock in the evening up here.
[03:06.280 --> 03:12.000]  So we had to adjust for that to do the radio tonight, and that's been kind of traumatic for us.
[03:12.100 --> 03:14.660]  But it's very different being up here, very different indeed.
[03:15.400 --> 03:17.640]  Is it just because the temperatures are in Celsius?
[03:19.400 --> 03:20.400]  Well, it is that.
[03:20.760 --> 03:23.480]  But also, it's been very cold.
[03:23.540 --> 03:25.040]  Well, it was very cold up until today.
[03:25.820 --> 03:32.320]  Before today, it was about minus 15 Celsius, which is in the teens in Fahrenheit scale.
[03:33.240 --> 03:35.320]  And today, it's just about the freezing mark.
[03:35.460 --> 03:37.620]  So it's kind of similar to, I guess, New York.
[03:37.740 --> 03:38.700]  But they have snow on the ground.
[03:38.960 --> 03:40.980]  Real, live snow on the ground.
[03:41.180 --> 03:42.420]  It's the most awesome thing.
[03:43.220 --> 03:47.500]  In addition, it is a little confusing.
[03:47.500 --> 03:52.340]  I think we've been navigating the system, and we're pretty good at figuring systems out.
[03:52.520 --> 04:05.140]  But I would say that if you're not careful, you can find that Montreal is unnecessarily confusing and not at all what you might expect, even if you think you know everything.
[04:05.140 --> 04:08.340]  Yeah, we noticed that on a number of occasions.
[04:08.520 --> 04:09.120]  I love this city.
[04:09.300 --> 04:10.640]  It's an incredible city.
[04:11.800 --> 04:16.260]  But they need to hire somebody just for signs alone.
[04:16.540 --> 04:21.780]  Like, for instance, if you're looking for the metro, you might see a sign for the metro.
[04:22.140 --> 04:23.260]  You probably won't.
[04:23.320 --> 04:26.700]  But if you do see a sign for that metro, odds are that sign won't be very helpful.
[04:26.700 --> 04:33.140]  We saw one sign that was a big metro sign, and all it said underneath it was an address where there was a metro station.
[04:33.300 --> 04:37.640]  No idea how to get to that address, but there wasn't a metro station where the big metro sign was.
[04:37.760 --> 04:41.660]  And when we finally found the address, there was no sign for a metro station at all there.
[04:41.660 --> 04:51.480]  When you're on the metro, if you're lucky, there's one map in the entire station, and undoubtedly some confused person is standing in front of that blocking the entire view.
[04:51.860 --> 04:59.560]  If you're on a station platform, you might not know what station it is because the name of the station is behind the train that you just got off.
[04:59.700 --> 05:02.680]  So there's all kinds of little things like that that drive you insane.
[05:02.680 --> 05:17.720]  Another aspect of that is when you ask for directions, like maybe a local, someone that you think might know where things are, you generally just get a response of, yeah, it's about 15 minutes that way.
[05:17.860 --> 05:20.080]  Everything is about 15 minutes from where you are.
[05:20.700 --> 05:31.500]  And I think that really means it's about 15 minutes before you realize you're not going in the right direction, you're lost, they didn't know what they were talking about, and you have to start all over.
[05:31.500 --> 05:38.920]  And the other thing related to weather is snow removal is a little chaotic.
[05:39.220 --> 05:40.320]  Oh, my God.
[05:40.520 --> 05:41.140]  Oh, my God.
[05:41.840 --> 05:44.760]  They take it really, really seriously.
[05:45.660 --> 05:55.700]  First of all, it's mainly at night, so if you're walking at night, you'll notice this incredible operation, and they use all kinds of heavy equipment.
[05:55.920 --> 05:57.400]  They don't have snow plows here.
[05:57.520 --> 05:58.480]  They have tractors.
[05:58.600 --> 06:00.800]  They have tractors that go very, very fast.
[06:01.500 --> 06:12.140]  And they will drive these things, they'll drive small tractors on the sidewalks, and then enormous earth movers on the roads where people park.
[06:12.320 --> 06:21.140]  And we learned something interesting about how you are notified that there's going to be street clearing in your neighborhood.
[06:21.140 --> 06:27.040]  Yeah, we were walking down several streets, and we noticed this at least two or three times, this god-awful siren.
[06:27.320 --> 06:32.680]  It was like a car alarm going off, but it was extremely loud, extremely continuous.
[06:32.800 --> 06:35.020]  You could hear it for about a mile around.
[06:35.280 --> 06:40.960]  And then we saw a pickup truck driving down the street with a flashing light making that sound.
[06:41.060 --> 06:43.380]  People were shouting at it, but it seemed to be intentional.
[06:43.380 --> 06:49.060]  And eventually we asked some natives of Montreal, what in God's name is that loud sound coming from these pickup trucks?
[06:49.300 --> 06:56.260]  Yeah, and so this two-tone, kind of old-timey horn is blaring and blaring for like 10 minutes.
[06:56.880 --> 07:01.880]  What that means is your neighborhood is going to have this heavy equipment.
[07:01.880 --> 07:10.560]  And you better move your car, because it makes it really, really difficult for them to actually clear and move snow to the side.
[07:10.560 --> 07:18.800]  So they'll blare this thing so that everyone knows to come out and relocate your vehicle to make way for this snow removal.
[07:19.020 --> 07:31.020]  But if you're a pedestrian, you should be as cautious and be as alert as someone who may have parked, because it appears that the heavy equipment has the right of way.
[07:32.540 --> 07:40.260]  Basically, you're really, you're taking your life in your own hands if you challenge these heavy machines.
[07:40.260 --> 07:54.640]  And we found multiple moments walking, recording audio, doing our thing, you know, exploring the city at night, that basically, if you see the lights of these machines coming at you, do not assume that they can see you and will stop.
[07:54.820 --> 07:57.260]  They assume you will get right out of the way.
[07:57.260 --> 07:57.260]  Right.
[07:57.500 --> 07:57.760]  Yeah.
[07:57.920 --> 08:02.180]  And every year, apparently, some pedestrians don't survive because of these things.
[08:02.440 --> 08:07.800]  It's just, it's the way that it's handled up here, which is totally alien to us.
[08:07.920 --> 08:12.880]  But I guess in a city where there is a lot of snow, that's what you have to expect.
[08:13.640 --> 08:20.340]  So this is the Soylent Green, the scoops are on their way situation, where they can come in and just barrel through.
[08:20.340 --> 08:22.000]  But that's interesting, though.
[08:22.120 --> 08:26.840]  I wonder how well that sort of thing would work here, where there doesn't seem to...
[08:26.840 --> 08:38.300]  Like, it so often happens that it will snow here, it will freeze over, and it seems like the local municipalities are entirely unprepared for anything like snow or know what snow is.
[08:38.480 --> 08:40.460]  So it's interesting to hear about the other extreme.
[08:40.460 --> 08:46.060]  Yeah, it is the big difference, I think, having moved to New York from a place that knew how to handle snow.
[08:46.520 --> 08:47.120]  Oh, yeah.
[08:47.860 --> 08:57.220]  In the Twin Cities, they do what they refer to as the conga line with the salt and sand trucks, where just six of them drive on every lane of the interstate at the same time and just clear the whole section.
[08:57.580 --> 08:58.320]  It's amazing.
[08:58.420 --> 09:03.560]  But that's also the apparatus that they have in place because they're used to dealing with a lot of snow.
[09:04.580 --> 09:11.720]  Well, you know, they do get used to it, and I think in New York, we get used to it as well if it happens.
[09:12.520 --> 09:21.540]  In the situation we have now where there's less snow than normal, you tend to not react to it as well when it finally does come.
[09:21.680 --> 09:29.320]  I think in a city like Montreal, where snow is something they're used to, they're able to handle it better in certain ways.
[09:29.320 --> 09:33.860]  For instance, doors to the metro are designed so that cold air doesn't get in.
[09:34.400 --> 09:39.760]  The metro itself has rubber wheels because it never goes outside because of the weather.
[09:39.760 --> 09:41.940]  So they adjust to that.
[09:42.300 --> 09:45.660]  And there's all kinds of other precautions they take.
[09:45.660 --> 09:47.560]  People know how to walk on sidewalks.
[09:47.660 --> 09:52.940]  We're walking on icy streets going uphill, and somehow nobody's falling on their ass.
[09:52.940 --> 09:55.960]  So it's kind of, I guess, you adapt.
[09:56.280 --> 10:05.720]  And speaking of falling, there's a lot of signage for falling ice and things above you melting and shifting and that kind of thing.
[10:05.800 --> 10:13.340]  So it really is something you have to be prepared for among the other sort of disorienting aspects of travel.
[10:15.840 --> 10:16.740]  Interesting, interesting.
[10:18.220 --> 10:22.200]  Well, there's certainly a lot going on in the world this past week.
[10:22.720 --> 10:24.860]  Today is not a slow news day, I gather.
[10:25.080 --> 10:29.580]  There's something about some kind of thing going on in D.C., but I wasn't really paying attention, I must admit.
[10:29.600 --> 10:30.840]  I missed some of the details.
[10:31.040 --> 10:32.640]  Can I share something else I just learned?
[10:32.940 --> 10:33.200]  Sure.
[10:33.540 --> 10:35.080]  Apparently, Mr. Peanut died.
[10:35.440 --> 10:36.500]  Mr. Peanut died?
[10:37.120 --> 10:38.820]  Apparently, Mr. Peanut died.
[10:39.580 --> 10:40.760]  What does that mean?
[10:41.340 --> 10:46.120]  Um, so apparently, they've announced it on Twitter.
[10:47.280 --> 10:52.360]  At Mr. Peanut is the official Twitter of the estate of Mr. Peanut, and they're really leaning in on this.
[10:52.460 --> 10:56.520]  I don't understand how this happened.
[10:56.520 --> 11:00.780]  But yes, apparently, it's like the number three trending item on Twitter right now.
[11:01.020 --> 11:01.660]  Mr. Peanut died.
[11:02.100 --> 11:02.460]  R.I.P.
[11:02.520 --> 11:02.760]  Mr. Peanut.
[11:02.760 --> 11:05.560]  Okay, this is why Twitter is garbage.
[11:05.740 --> 11:06.180]  I'm sorry.
[11:06.800 --> 11:12.840]  But Mr. Peanut, even I know that Planters is the company that makes Mr. Peanut.
[11:13.360 --> 11:16.940]  So if anybody died, it's Mr. Planters, if there is such a person.
[11:17.160 --> 11:18.740]  But I really doubt there's a Mr. Peanut.
[11:18.960 --> 11:27.120]  This sounds like a viral ad campaign or something sneaky they're trying to get in, kind of like IHOP changing their name or something.
[11:27.300 --> 11:30.120]  Or to take away from Terry Jones, who he should be mourning.
[11:30.260 --> 11:31.520]  Yeah, that's more serious.
[11:32.280 --> 11:41.040]  Yeah, although I have to say, when I think about it, I think Terry Jones might appreciate the fact of his passing being overshadowed by a cartoon character.
[11:41.480 --> 11:43.820]  It's just absurd enough to make sense for a Python.
[11:44.060 --> 11:48.080]  I wouldn't put it past Terry Jones to have concocted this whole idea in the first place.
[11:50.120 --> 11:50.520]  Absolutely.
[11:50.680 --> 11:52.220]  It's horrible walnuts in any way.
[11:52.720 --> 11:54.940]  Can we just say a couple other things about Montreal?
[11:54.940 --> 11:56.380]  Well, because I did want to point this out.
[11:56.520 --> 12:01.500]  I didn't want to make it seem like we're being too critical here because the place is absolutely amazing.
[12:01.740 --> 12:07.260]  What they do up here is what we talk about a lot on Off the Hook as far as merging technologies.
[12:08.280 --> 12:11.060]  They, for instance, on the Metro, we spend a lot of time on the Metro.
[12:12.200 --> 12:15.900]  Every single subway platform has a pay phone.
[12:16.860 --> 12:18.380]  It's very easy to see.
[12:18.740 --> 12:20.180]  And they're always working.
[12:20.240 --> 12:22.020]  They always have a dial tone.
[12:22.200 --> 12:23.340]  They're always kept up.
[12:23.340 --> 12:29.480]  We saw one that was broken, but it was obviously being called attention to so that they would quickly fix it.
[12:30.080 --> 12:36.600]  You see pay phones in conspicuous parts of the city because people realize that occasionally cell phones don't work.
[12:36.660 --> 12:39.260]  And it's important to always have that other network available.
[12:39.380 --> 12:40.440]  They don't abandon things.
[12:40.560 --> 12:41.660]  They have bookstores.
[12:41.900 --> 12:43.200]  In fact, they have people...
[12:43.200 --> 12:44.440]  This is really interesting.
[12:44.780 --> 12:51.700]  If you are on an escalator going down the Metro, you see at least two or three people reading hardcover books on the escalator.
[12:51.700 --> 12:54.720]  I don't recall seeing that as much in New York.
[12:54.840 --> 13:01.100]  People are always looking at devices, but they have nice analog books that people really are still into reading.
[13:02.360 --> 13:02.880]  Wow.
[13:03.320 --> 13:05.700]  Someone just walked into the studio here.
[13:06.020 --> 13:09.140]  Sir, we didn't order any milk this week.
[13:09.140 --> 13:11.500]  I don't know if that's what you're here to...
[13:11.500 --> 13:12.980]  Well, what am I supposed to do with all this?
[13:13.460 --> 13:14.840]  Oh, I don't know.
[13:15.040 --> 13:16.100]  I mean, make some cheese.
[13:17.660 --> 13:20.040]  So, Alex is here, listeners.
[13:20.040 --> 13:23.180]  And we've just been talking about...
[13:24.440 --> 13:29.760]  Our colleagues have been talking about the transit in Montreal, where they are.
[13:30.260 --> 13:32.720]  Oh, are Emanuel and Kyle on the line?
[13:32.900 --> 13:33.640]  They are, indeed.
[13:33.920 --> 13:34.680]  Good evening, everybody.
[13:34.840 --> 13:36.120]  Emanuel and Kyle, how are you guys?
[13:36.200 --> 13:36.920]  How is Tehran?
[13:37.480 --> 13:41.220]  I didn't know that Snowden was moved there until I got your text message.
[13:42.140 --> 13:43.540]  Okay, first of all, it's not Tehran.
[13:43.640 --> 13:44.420]  Someone misinformed you.
[13:44.520 --> 13:44.980]  It's Montreal.
[13:45.400 --> 13:49.220]  In fact, we were just at a Metro stop called Snowden, but it's spelled differently.
[13:49.760 --> 13:50.640]  So there's that.
[13:51.140 --> 13:54.080]  But we've been noticing all kinds of different things going on.
[13:54.160 --> 13:56.400]  We understand you broke the entire subway network in New York City.
[13:56.640 --> 13:58.440]  Well, you know, it wouldn't be the first time.
[13:59.600 --> 14:03.700]  Every once in a while, you just have to test business continuity plans of the MTA.
[14:04.880 --> 14:05.980]  How is it out there?
[14:06.100 --> 14:07.800]  What did you see when you came up?
[14:07.980 --> 14:11.360]  It was complete bedlam when I left Midtown.
[14:11.360 --> 14:12.300]  It was craziness.
[14:12.300 --> 14:14.960]  I mean, the subway was five or six deep.
[14:15.320 --> 14:23.480]  People were struggling to get onto the M, the E, everything that they could possibly fit their, you know, overheated bodies into.
[14:23.980 --> 14:24.580]  You know, it was all...
[14:24.580 --> 14:28.100]  It was just, you know, damaged goods going back to broken homes en masse.
[14:28.460 --> 14:29.720]  Typical New York evening.
[14:30.540 --> 14:32.940]  Yeah, that's a normal rush hour in New York, isn't it?
[14:33.000 --> 14:33.700]  Yeah, absolutely.
[14:34.820 --> 14:38.680]  We experienced an interesting rush hour event.
[14:38.680 --> 14:46.000]  People were lined up to get onto a train, and there were these cops making sure people got on the train in an orderly fashion.
[14:46.120 --> 14:47.620]  They didn't have to actually do anything.
[14:47.760 --> 14:50.240]  But it was interesting, one of the cops...
[14:50.240 --> 15:03.080]  Yeah, one of the transit police officers was wearing cut-off, like, Daisy Duke jeans with bright pink leggings, which I thought was a daring choice, a fashion choice.
[15:03.340 --> 15:12.940]  But having a pleasant conversation with his colleagues there, and minding the queue, which itself was a very polite and Canadian thing.
[15:13.060 --> 15:17.940]  But it made for an interesting wait while the train was arriving.
[15:18.760 --> 15:27.020]  So, Emmanuel, before we were interrupted by someone barging into the studio, you were talking about Montreal, and you had another thing or two you wanted to mention.
[15:27.360 --> 15:29.540]  Well, yeah, we've done a bunch of things.
[15:29.540 --> 15:47.780]  We were actually part of a seminar yesterday at McGill University, where we got to meet all these graduate, undergraduate students who were so perceptive and so involved in just the hacker underground, studying it, the history, what's going on currently,
[15:47.920 --> 15:55.880]  the relevance, studying all kinds of interesting fields and asking the most intuitive questions.
[15:55.880 --> 15:57.940]  So it really was heartening to see that.
[15:57.940 --> 16:00.400]  Everybody is interested in Hope.
[16:00.400 --> 16:04.920]  Everybody is interested in the radio shows and interested in the magazine.
[16:05.160 --> 16:09.480]  Some of them even publishing themselves and getting involved doing radio themselves.
[16:09.480 --> 16:10.640]  It was really encouraging.
[16:10.740 --> 16:23.420]  I think there were at least three or four shows with the students just in their interests alone, not including what we were talking about and, of course, our endeavors in New York.
[16:23.580 --> 16:27.480]  Yeah, we were talking about, you know, doing old school things.
[16:27.940 --> 16:31.020]  And a couple of students are working on zines.
[16:31.460 --> 16:40.140]  And, as Kyle said, a couple of the other ones were doing radio shows and realizing the value of these things that a lot of us in the States have dismissed.
[16:40.140 --> 17:01.840]  Yeah, and had concerns that we're thinking about all the time, you know, everything from using proprietary software when you're producing stuff, you know, any kind of media or other content, print content, you know, how do you navigate some of the sort of overbearing tactics that a lot of the software companies are using?
[17:01.840 --> 17:18.960]  And what kinds of things we face legally and things we don't ordinarily get asked but are no less crucial from the perspective of publishers and hackers such as ourselves.
[17:18.960 --> 17:22.220]  Yeah, we've talked to a bunch of classes, a bunch of different schools.
[17:22.600 --> 17:31.440]  And sometimes, you know, you're talking to students that just are looking at their computers or their phones or whatever and not really following along.
[17:31.660 --> 17:42.460]  These students were engaged and totally following what's going on and deciding how they want to focus their lives and make a difference.
[17:42.460 --> 17:43.440]  So it really was inspiring.
[17:43.620 --> 17:47.660]  I know they told us, oh, you know, we learn so much from you.
[17:47.820 --> 17:49.200]  I think we learn more from them.
[17:49.420 --> 17:52.940]  Yeah, that's just a theme of going out and talking to people.
[17:53.120 --> 18:10.960]  Hearing all the different concentrations that they're coming from, I mean, some from the sort of mass communication perspective, in other words, journalism and also, you know, spanning that to more legal or philosophical angles.
[18:10.960 --> 18:18.360]  It's just really coming from all different parts of the campus and the arts and sciences.
[18:18.820 --> 18:27.020]  But having genuine curiosity about what hacker culture is and what it means and really appreciating how big it is.
[18:27.120 --> 18:44.220]  And I think we were able to amplify that a little bit because we can kind of shed light as we do every week here on just how pervasive technology is and how we kind of have to take hold of our own control and our own tech.
[18:44.440 --> 18:49.900]  And the enthusiasm that we heard for HOPE coming up this summer was simply incredible.
[18:50.020 --> 18:59.460]  We have a lot of HOPE coordinators in Canada, so we're up here meeting with some to discuss ideas and ways forward and to work on some new projects.
[18:59.460 --> 19:08.260]  But it's really cool to talk to a bunch of students at the university who are aware of the conference, who plan on coming, and really, they get it.
[19:08.340 --> 19:10.080]  They understand what it's all about.
[19:10.280 --> 19:16.360]  And on the subject of the conference, I just wanted to say, we opened up ticket sales last week, as we mentioned last week.
[19:16.360 --> 19:18.680]  I think that's still going on.
[19:18.780 --> 19:23.200]  But we also opened up speaker submissions, and we're starting to get a bunch of those as well.
[19:23.680 --> 19:33.200]  So please, if you're interested, in fact, a lot of these students are interested, too, in submitting talks, we're completely open to people of all different experience levels and subject matters.
[19:33.320 --> 19:35.880]  There are so many different things the hacker world encompasses.
[19:36.400 --> 19:43.320]  So please go to the speaker page on the HOPE.net website for more information on how to submit your talk idea.
[19:43.960 --> 19:50.080]  Please do it as soon as possible, because it really... the earlier, the better, as far as chances for being accepted.
[19:50.440 --> 19:53.520]  And it's only one of many, many things we're going to be doing at the conference.
[19:53.740 --> 19:56.960]  But like I mentioned, people are just so excited by the prospect.
[19:57.300 --> 19:59.220]  And we're really inspired.
[19:59.220 --> 20:13.900]  I mean, as I said, hearing things, you know, there's people studying the impacts of stuff like blockchain or bug bounties, and even parallel communities like the underground music scene and so on and so forth.
[20:13.940 --> 20:28.040]  I just know that our audience and other people at HOPE are all interested and probably have as many exciting things that they feel really would enthrall our HOPE audience.
[20:28.040 --> 20:38.760]  So I'm looking forward to our schedules and submissions that we'll inevitably be packing the event with.
[20:38.940 --> 20:44.280]  And we also want to talk about the radio station that we visited today, but we give you guys a chance to say something.
[20:44.560 --> 20:45.020]  Oh, wow.
[20:45.100 --> 20:45.920]  Well, thank you for that.
[20:46.080 --> 20:50.620]  Yes, you know, we're used to it on this end, to just, you know, hearing the unending monologue.
[20:50.620 --> 21:01.740]  But I am glad to hear, as part of that unending monologue, or dual log, I guess, with you and Kyle, that it really has been an inspirational two-way street between you and the students.
[21:01.740 --> 21:04.080]  And that's, I think, super important.
[21:04.520 --> 21:08.200]  And am I correct in hearing that you said you were at McGill University?
[21:09.140 --> 21:10.060]  That's right, McGill.
[21:10.220 --> 21:26.520]  McGill, as I understand it, I'm not an expert in Canadian academic institutions, but McGill, as I understand it, is quite an, I wouldn't say an elite university, but it's comprised of what would be the students that would go to Harvard, I guess, in the United States.
[21:26.520 --> 21:31.520]  You know, people are very, you know, rigorous academically, really great students.
[21:31.860 --> 21:45.540]  But, you know, more to the point, I think, in that they are being inspired by your presence there, and having this dialogue, it reminds me of when I got involved with this community way back in the mid-90s, and I was in high school.
[21:45.720 --> 22:04.220]  And I think part of this community, in the hacker community, and why it's so important to young people, is because, at least for me, being part of this community, discussing technological subjects that would otherwise mystify adults, gave me a lot of intellectual confidence.
[22:04.480 --> 22:20.120]  And it gave me the confidence to actually realize that I could do very, very well in school, and that if I could, you know, I used what I claim now as a lawyer to be a fortiori reasoning, or by necessary implication, I would reason to myself that if I could,
[22:20.180 --> 22:33.180]  you know, program in C, if I could hack Linux systems, if I could do all these various things that the adults that are teaching me cannot do and cannot understand, then by necessary implication, I must be smarter than them, right?
[22:33.180 --> 22:42.800]  And therefore, there is no reason why I should get anything less than an A in all of my classes, and I still carry that mentality with me to this day, you know, for better and for worse.
[22:43.020 --> 22:55.780]  But I think part of this community is about inspiration, and it's about confidence, and I love to hear that you guys are giving that back to Canadian students and students wherever you're on tour these days.
[22:57.080 --> 23:02.640]  Yeah, and we got so much out of it, and one of the things we talked about was just the growth of the hacker community.
[23:03.420 --> 23:06.500]  Back in the 80s and 90s, it was very different than what it was today.
[23:06.500 --> 23:09.900]  And I think there's been a lot of maturity.
[23:10.160 --> 23:22.800]  There's, you know, still problems, obviously, in some places, but I've seen so much that is also inspiring and just very welcoming and inclusive, which is what we should all be striving to do.
[23:22.940 --> 23:26.460]  But to see that develop is definitely a heartening thing.
[23:26.640 --> 23:31.840]  And one other discussion that came up was the issue of hacker handles.
[23:31.940 --> 23:34.100]  And why do hackers have handles?
[23:34.100 --> 23:37.380]  Why do they use names that aren't their legal names?
[23:37.780 --> 23:51.460]  And, you know, I realized as we were talking about this that, yeah, you know, handles are pretty much a way of explaining who you feel you are rather than explaining who you have been assigned.
[23:51.600 --> 23:59.140]  And I see a lot of parallels now with people identifying in certain ways and having the freedom to express themselves in those ways.
[23:59.140 --> 24:09.140]  And the hacker community has been doing this for decades, just coming up with something that may or may not be a better interpretation of who you are as a human being.
[24:09.140 --> 24:14.080]  But at least you're being given the chance to name yourself and to identify yourself.
[24:14.080 --> 24:30.560]  And I just... I saw tremendous parallels with the hacker community from the early days to today's society as it continues to grow and just develop into something that is so much more inclusive of everybody.
[24:31.760 --> 24:39.280]  Yeah, the whole handle, the whole situation with hacker handles is something I've always been very, very fascinated with and interested in.
[24:39.580 --> 24:46.960]  And I know from my own experience, it was a way to make your own identity from scratch.
[24:47.240 --> 24:51.900]  You could be, you know, something funny, something serious, something intimidating, whatever.
[24:51.900 --> 25:00.460]  But it also served back in those mid-90s where Alex and I were both first making our steps into the hacker community.
[25:01.300 --> 25:09.780]  Back then, if someone knew your real identity and knew that you identified as a hacker, that alone could be enough to get you into trouble.
[25:09.920 --> 25:11.540]  That alone could be enough to get you raided.
[25:11.760 --> 25:16.560]  That alone could be enough to get you suffering all sorts of consequences at school, at work or whatever.
[25:16.560 --> 25:20.140]  Now people put hacker on their resume and LinkedIn.
[25:20.440 --> 25:37.380]  But even now, though, there's always value, I think, in working on creating an identity for yourself that you're in control of, that you're in charge of, and putting what you want to out there as yourself rather than what anyone else tells you you should be.
[25:37.380 --> 25:40.980]  Yeah, I tend to agree with that too, Rob.
[25:41.140 --> 25:48.900]  And to a very large extent, I think the stigma surrounding the notion of a hacker has dissipated, but not entirely.
[25:49.160 --> 25:56.600]  And as we do discuss from time to time, the media still does conflate the word hacker with the word criminal.
[25:56.800 --> 25:57.000]  Absolutely.
[25:57.000 --> 25:58.820]  I think all too often these days.
[25:59.200 --> 26:08.000]  And it sounds like the students, Emmanuel and Kyle, that you guys were talking to, really get the point that being a hacker doesn't mean that you have to break the law.
[26:08.100 --> 26:09.640]  It doesn't mean that you have to hack into systems.
[26:09.680 --> 26:13.080]  It doesn't mean you have to be up on the latest zero-day exploits.
[26:13.640 --> 26:15.940]  That it's more of a philosophical way of thinking.
[26:15.940 --> 26:16.760]  It's an outlook.
[26:16.760 --> 26:23.360]  It's a standpoint from which you view life, the universe, and everything, as Douglas Adams would have put it.
[26:24.040 --> 26:25.920]  And that you're willing to take things apart.
[26:26.080 --> 26:26.880]  You're willing to break things.
[26:26.980 --> 26:28.080]  You're willing to ask questions.
[26:28.300 --> 26:34.360]  You're willing to go the extra mile to go down that rabbit hole to get the answers that nobody else would be willing to go for.
[26:35.360 --> 26:38.640]  And it sounds like they're really getting it.
[26:38.720 --> 26:44.740]  And I was always very pleasantly surprised at the Canadian presence that we've had at previous HOPE conferences.
[26:44.980 --> 26:48.560]  I think that this year will be no different.
[26:49.640 --> 26:50.280]  Yeah.
[26:50.620 --> 26:50.780]  Yeah.
[26:50.940 --> 26:51.040]  Yeah.
[26:51.040 --> 26:52.080]  It really...
[26:52.080 --> 26:53.640]  That came up as well.
[26:53.940 --> 26:55.480]  It just matters of...
[26:55.480 --> 26:58.540]  Or, you know, does representation still matter?
[26:58.540 --> 27:02.100]  I think it's something we had a really long discussion about.
[27:02.340 --> 27:06.620]  And it is something that has become better.
[27:06.620 --> 27:13.520]  And the community itself, I think, is more reflective of society in general.
[27:13.680 --> 27:21.220]  Which I kind of theorize that, you know, technology is more pervasive and there's a greater democratization of access.
[27:21.220 --> 27:23.000]  That it is...
[27:23.000 --> 27:24.060]  It's almost...
[27:24.060 --> 27:38.140]  It's almost mandatory that we have more hackers and more voices and perspectives so that we can all sort of make sense of what technology is being wielded upon us, if you want to look at it that way.
[27:38.140 --> 27:42.140]  But we absolutely talked about what it was, representation of hackers.
[27:42.340 --> 27:44.080]  What is representation of hackers?
[27:44.200 --> 27:44.560]  Has it...
[27:44.560 --> 27:45.360]  How has it changed?
[27:45.540 --> 27:49.640]  And there is still work to be done, I think, because that's what I came away with.
[27:49.640 --> 27:53.960]  And I'm sure others would agree in one way or another.
[27:54.140 --> 27:55.120]  So, it really...
[27:55.120 --> 27:59.900]  It was just fascinating to revisit some of those things...
[27:59.900 --> 28:05.840]  Some of those more, like, philosophical but wildly important and prescient subjects.
[28:07.300 --> 28:07.780]  Absolutely.
[28:09.100 --> 28:09.580]  Oh.
[28:09.760 --> 28:13.560]  Hey, can I mention the radio station that we visited today?
[28:13.880 --> 28:14.620]  Oh, awesome.
[28:14.800 --> 28:19.200]  Yeah, we love connecting up with other stations and seeing how things are done.
[28:20.300 --> 28:23.660]  Well, yeah, we discovered this station that's a community station.
[28:23.820 --> 28:26.560]  They've been on the air since, I believe, 1980.
[28:27.100 --> 28:29.340]  They broadcast at 101.5.
[28:29.340 --> 28:36.100]  Now, in Canada, they don't separate the FM dial like we do in the States, where everything below 92 is non-commercial.
[28:36.320 --> 28:39.480]  So, you can have non-commercial stations in various parts of the dial.
[28:39.520 --> 28:43.480]  And this one happens to be where we were considered to be the commercial band, 101.5.
[28:44.000 --> 28:45.940]  And it's a French-language station.
[28:46.700 --> 28:48.740]  And they're right in the middle of Montreal.
[28:48.840 --> 28:52.260]  It's just a building right there on the street.
[28:52.380 --> 28:55.420]  They have street-type studios, and they have a really nice facility.
[28:55.420 --> 28:58.140]  In fact, some of the same equipment we have at WBAI.
[28:58.140 --> 29:04.540]  But they also have some of the same problems that we have at WBAI with regard to financing.
[29:05.780 --> 29:10.340]  They had to lay off all their paid employees back in 2018.
[29:10.940 --> 29:14.340]  And they're constantly struggling to find funding.
[29:14.340 --> 29:19.060]  But they have a huge number of volunteers and programs.
[29:19.060 --> 29:24.480]  And it's really good to connect with people and see, yeah, we're trying to do the same thing.
[29:24.540 --> 29:25.900]  We have the same challenges.
[29:26.180 --> 29:27.980]  Maybe this is a way of doing it better.
[29:28.360 --> 29:34.240]  And just realizing that, like so many other places, non-commercial radio is surviving.
[29:34.940 --> 29:40.480]  They have, I think, really good deals in many ways.
[29:40.660 --> 29:46.200]  They get a lot of government support in order to keep the space that they have right in the middle of Midtown.
[29:46.200 --> 29:51.440]  They also have an antenna on top of the Olympic Stadium.
[29:51.920 --> 29:53.800]  And they have an arrangement with that.
[29:53.800 --> 29:58.220]  So they're not paying huge amounts of money like, you know, we've been having to do in New York.
[29:58.520 --> 30:02.000]  So it's good to see these other ways that problems are solved.
[30:02.200 --> 30:04.380]  And sometimes we can bring things to the table as well.
[30:05.040 --> 30:06.580]  You know, I have a question about that.
[30:06.760 --> 30:13.040]  The fact that they scatter in non-commercial stations throughout the FM band is kind of interesting to me.
[30:13.040 --> 30:19.400]  Were your Canadian counterparts at this public radio station similarly surprised to find out in the U.S.
[30:19.600 --> 30:22.680]  that most non-commercial stations are segregated at the bottom of the dial?
[30:23.500 --> 30:25.800]  Well, we didn't specifically ask them that question.
[30:25.800 --> 30:29.860]  I imagine if you're involved in radio, you kind of know how things go.
[30:30.260 --> 30:31.820]  The different rules in different countries.
[30:32.060 --> 30:36.760]  Like, you know, for instance, Canadian call letters begin with C.
[30:37.320 --> 30:39.220]  Except in Newfoundland where some can begin with B.
[30:39.340 --> 30:40.460]  But we'll get into that some other time.
[30:40.860 --> 30:42.400]  I don't know if I gave the call letters.
[30:42.580 --> 30:45.380]  C-I-B-L is the call letter for this station.
[30:45.580 --> 30:47.800]  C-I-B-L in Montreal 101.5.
[30:47.800 --> 30:53.100]  And it's cool to hear independent voices doing their thing.
[30:53.100 --> 30:55.760]  Of course, most of it is in French, but some of it isn't.
[30:56.260 --> 31:00.520]  And it's just one of many outlets that I think we'll find.
[31:00.680 --> 31:05.300]  And they're really engaged with the music scene, live music scene.
[31:05.300 --> 31:09.220]  One of their studios is actually at street level.
[31:09.420 --> 31:15.580]  So they can basically run shows right there with people walking around in the neighborhood.
[31:16.120 --> 31:27.440]  So it's a fantastic facility, which totally reminded me of what we've been through, getting to where we are now at WBAI and our fantastic new studios there.
[31:27.660 --> 31:31.220]  It was so many parallels like that.
[31:31.220 --> 31:37.820]  So I'm sure the frequency question would have been something they could relate with as well.
[31:38.000 --> 31:41.260]  But fantastic just to hear the programming.
[31:41.540 --> 31:44.160]  I mean, every type of music.
[31:44.440 --> 31:50.700]  There's a talk show that they're doing on cannabis, which is really interesting.
[31:50.940 --> 32:14.760]  They're trying a lot of new things and kind of going along with the sorts of issues that the city itself is grappling with and keeping with that and staying sort of on top of it in a relevant way, which I think is so important and what we always try to do with the talk and news programs at WBAI.
[32:15.680 --> 32:21.180]  You know, speaking of which, I wonder if you had the opportunity to ask them questions about fundraising.
[32:21.180 --> 32:27.820]  You mentioned that they receive, and not surprisingly, more funds from the government in Canada to support non-commercial radio.
[32:28.520 --> 32:32.560]  What other kinds of fundraising, if you know, do they engage in?
[32:34.760 --> 32:42.620]  Well, it seemed that they do do a lot as far as getting help, like grants-wise.
[32:42.860 --> 32:45.760]  I'm not exactly sure if they do regular fundraising.
[32:45.940 --> 32:52.960]  They are considered a nonprofit and have, you know, typical board meetings and that sort of thing for governance.
[32:52.960 --> 33:01.400]  And, you know, much in the same way we have local station boards and the broader network in Pacifica.
[33:01.480 --> 33:20.960]  But I think that it just, it really is about community support, engaging with venues and having shows and working out arrangements for festivals and some of the places where you would garner a new audience and continue to thrive.
[33:20.960 --> 33:26.100]  They have board meetings and the programming councils and things like that.
[33:26.220 --> 33:29.960]  And they have differences of opinion, but they try to find that common ground.
[33:30.140 --> 33:37.000]  And it's particularly interesting because they have a bunch of hip-hop people that do their thing but help the station out.
[33:37.600 --> 33:56.520]  Also, one of the groups of people that was really huge in making the station successful were taxi drivers, specifically Haitian taxi drivers, who really banded together and got word of the station out and did their own programming and became a part of this amazing mishmash of different cultures.
[33:56.520 --> 33:59.480]  So I think there's something we can learn from that as well.
[33:59.480 --> 34:17.020]  Yeah, and apparently the drivers really, they would gravitate to the show in a literal sense by locating and congregating around the sort of strongest part of the signal at that point in time to listen to it while they're waiting on their next fare and so on.
[34:17.160 --> 34:19.820]  So just stories like that were really heartening.
[34:20.020 --> 34:24.200]  And of course, when a taxi driver is playing the radio station, the passenger hears it as well.
[34:24.200 --> 34:29.580]  Yeah, and one last thing that we really felt was similar.
[34:29.580 --> 34:42.660]  It was about bringing in newer producers and youth to really put some of the more experienced producers, people that have been there for a while, put them onto the newer music.
[34:42.660 --> 34:54.560]  Because as much as you may be an expert on music, there's always stuff out there that you're not hearing, you're not trading with your friends like on campus and so on.
[34:54.680 --> 35:03.160]  So they really had a strong drive and motivation to bring in young producers, train, and get new programming on.
[35:03.260 --> 35:13.000]  Because, you know, someone who's been on the air for a while wants to go back in the archives and learn about stuff that they never got a chance to listen to when they were growing up, as well as bringing in new stuff.
[35:13.000 --> 35:16.720]  Yeah, that's what the person showing us around was emphasizing.
[35:16.720 --> 35:21.420]  He has his own musical taste, but he listens to the station to hear what the young people are playing.
[35:21.580 --> 35:26.840]  And I think that sort of ties together the radio station and what we were talking about at McGill.
[35:26.940 --> 35:32.280]  Because one of the questions we were asked was, are there new people coming into the Hacker community?
[35:32.280 --> 35:33.540]  And, of course, there are.
[35:33.620 --> 35:47.900]  And that's one of the indications that a community is thriving when you get young people coming in and taking an interest, learning the history, and moving forward maybe in a different direction, but becoming a part of something that already exists.
[35:47.900 --> 35:53.580]  You need that in radio, you need that in any community, any group of people that wants to thrive.
[35:53.580 --> 36:07.360]  And they can then take that and have ownership of the path and bring that instructive knowing to the present and to, as he said, to what they want to build.
[36:07.540 --> 36:09.420]  And that's what we have to say about Montreal.
[36:11.100 --> 36:11.580]  Excellent.
[36:12.580 --> 36:16.840]  Yeah, it's always heartening in the hacker community and in the radio community.
[36:17.020 --> 36:22.520]  I was at an all-hands meeting here at the station last night, and a lot of producers were here.
[36:22.800 --> 36:32.080]  And here at WBAI, we're seeing more and more younger producers taking the reins of their own programs and really reinvigorating the place.
[36:32.100 --> 36:37.460]  And that's something that I think maybe at some stages in our station's history we were lacking a bit of.
[36:37.520 --> 36:40.780]  And it's nice to see that people are still interested in radio.
[36:40.920 --> 36:50.900]  Younger people are still interested in radio and in community radio, especially non-profit listener-supported radio like what we do here at WBAI.
[36:51.440 --> 36:53.700]  And yeah, radio is not dead.
[36:53.880 --> 36:55.000]  We are still at it.
[36:55.100 --> 36:56.880]  And so are the kids.
[36:58.320 --> 36:59.460]  Radio is not dead.
[36:59.800 --> 37:00.800]  Books are not dead.
[37:01.180 --> 37:02.240]  Payphones are not dead.
[37:02.500 --> 37:04.480]  And all of that is true up here in Canada.
[37:05.920 --> 37:10.020]  Unlike the cartoon character from the peanut ads, these things are not dead.
[37:10.940 --> 37:16.660]  So there's a lot going on outside Montreal that you guys may have missed.
[37:16.720 --> 37:21.420]  I know you guys brought in a couple of stories of things that are going on.
[37:21.540 --> 37:24.840]  Alex, what's going on in the world that you've got there?
[37:25.000 --> 37:26.900]  Well, there's quite a few things going on.
[37:27.020 --> 37:45.160]  I mean, we could choose from any number of crazy stories that have come out over the last couple of days between Glenn Greenwald, you know, the journalist most notably associated with Edward Snowden, and The Intercept having been charged in Brazil with cyber crimes,
[37:45.360 --> 37:53.900]  to Apple reeling back its plans to encrypt iCloud backups in the cloud after some apparent discussions with the FBI.
[37:53.900 --> 37:58.060]  And I'm sure we all have strong feelings on these particular stories.
[37:58.060 --> 38:01.400]  So perhaps we should start with the Glenn Greenwald story.
[38:01.400 --> 38:15.660]  I mean, Glenn Greenwald had been reporting about corruption in Brazil and had some leaked messages from politicians that were particularly embarrassing to the political elite in Brazil.
[38:15.660 --> 38:23.760]  He had been concerned about criminal reprisals against him and his partner, who was also a local politician, I believe, in...
[38:23.760 --> 38:28.860]  I think it's... I'm not exactly sure what city it is, to be honest with you, but it is a local politician in Brazil.
[38:28.860 --> 38:36.400]  And he was, in fact, charged with cyber crimes in Brazil with a 95-page criminal complaint levied against him.
[38:36.680 --> 38:59.340]  And most of the complaint is to the effect of Glenn Greenwald had somehow assisted the exfiltration of the information and these telegram messages about these various politicians to an extent that he crossed the line from being a journalist and became part of that criminal conspiracy.
[38:59.580 --> 39:22.220]  All of this sounds very similar to the original indictment against Julian Assange that implicated Julian Assange with respect to crossing the line by providing Chelsea Manning assistance with the cracking, the failed cracking, mind you, of a particular password that belonged to a Department of Defense computer system.
[39:22.220 --> 39:24.820]  So there are some definite analogs here.
[39:26.160 --> 39:31.680]  Now, my thought on this, though, is I didn't see anything in the reporting.
[39:31.800 --> 39:44.260]  I haven't read the 95-page complaint against Glenn Greenwald because it's very likely in Portuguese and we're just seeing snippets of it, but I haven't seen anything to me that indicates that he really crossed this line.
[39:44.260 --> 40:01.420]  He may have been in touch with his sources that were monitoring various telegram groups where these messages originated, but nothing seemed to indicate to me that he was helping them facilitate or otherwise cover up in some kind of anti-forensic manner what they were doing.
[40:01.420 --> 40:05.700]  That would have been crossing a line depending upon what the law is in Brazil.
[40:05.700 --> 40:07.480]  I'm not entirely sure about that.
[40:07.560 --> 40:22.300]  But another point I think that bears mentioning is that Glenn Greenwald, if you think back to 2013 and all the reporting with respect to Snowden that came out thereafter, what became clear to me, and I always thought this to be very ironic, and in the interest of full disclosure,
[40:22.540 --> 40:24.100]  I have written for The Intercept.
[40:24.280 --> 40:25.500]  I don't do so frequently.
[40:26.000 --> 40:34.420]  The last article I wrote for them came out a couple of years ago, and it was on the NSA-AT&T partnership and mass surveillance technology.
[40:36.520 --> 40:54.560]  But what's funny to me is Glenn Greenwald was contacted by Snowden in 2013, and Snowden, as I understand it and I recall it, had asked Glenn Greenwald to set up a PGP key so that they could communicate effectively together, and Glenn Greenwald couldn't figure that out.
[40:54.960 --> 41:03.380]  So then Snowden said, okay, I'm going to move on at this point, and I believe he contacted Laura Poitras after that.
[41:03.520 --> 41:16.200]  So to implicate a reporter who couldn't figure out how to use PGP in 2013 in cyber crimes that just have to deal with monitoring a telegram group, I find somewhat befuddling.
[41:16.940 --> 41:23.820]  Well, I mean, Alex, do you think maybe in seven years you learn how to do that, and has a bit more technical expertise?
[41:23.820 --> 41:24.780]  I don't know.
[41:24.900 --> 41:25.140]  Do you?
[41:25.320 --> 41:26.640]  I think it's possible.
[41:26.640 --> 41:29.220]  But, you know, the guy's a reporter.
[41:29.500 --> 41:36.520]  I don't think that he's going to learn really sophisticated hacking techniques even within that seven-year period.
[41:36.620 --> 41:38.160]  This is a guy who's been extraordinarily busy.
[41:38.700 --> 41:44.500]  And a month ago, this was a guy who was investigated to see if he had participated in these crimes.
[41:44.640 --> 41:46.880]  And I will admit, my Portuguese, not great.
[41:47.080 --> 41:48.100]  Almost nonexistent.
[41:48.340 --> 41:52.860]  But I was able to pick out the phrase, found not to have participated in any crimes.
[41:52.860 --> 41:53.980]  That's absolutely correct.
[41:54.280 --> 42:05.460]  That is pointed out in the story on this in the New York Times, in which they mentioned that the federal police had issued a report in December that cleared Greenwald of having engaged in criminal conduct related to the phone hacks.
[42:05.540 --> 42:05.640]  Right.
[42:05.700 --> 42:09.600]  And if you click on that link where it says issued a report, it goes to an article that's in Portuguese.
[42:09.880 --> 42:09.960]  Right.
[42:10.160 --> 42:12.280]  But crimes in Portuguese looks like crimes.
[42:12.520 --> 42:13.360]  So I was sort of able to...
[42:13.360 --> 42:14.580]  Cognates are really great.
[42:14.820 --> 42:15.200]  That's it.
[42:15.260 --> 42:18.080]  From now on, you're an official Portuguese correspondent for this program.
[42:18.220 --> 42:18.460]  Thank you.
[42:18.700 --> 42:21.480]  And yet another analog, I think, with the Assange matter.
[42:21.480 --> 42:31.300]  Because Assange, during the Obama administration, it was determined by the United States Department of Justice that the First Amendment would have prevented that particular prosecution.
[42:31.320 --> 42:39.000]  But once the political tides changed and for whatever reason the Trump administration saw fit to bring these charges despite the First Amendment.
[42:39.000 --> 42:41.680]  So, again, we have a situation of...
[42:41.680 --> 42:48.460]  And by the way, I'm not advocating by any means that Julian Assange is a journalist and I've written about that for CNN.
[42:49.860 --> 43:06.180]  But we have a very analogous situation where people that are providing journalistic services have been found by one set of government to not be implicated in crimes and then found very shortly thereafter to be implicated for those very same crimes.
[43:06.180 --> 43:07.400]  All of this...
[43:07.400 --> 43:09.300]  One thing I'm hearing, Alex...
[43:09.300 --> 43:09.700]  Go ahead, Kyle.
[43:10.100 --> 43:27.220]  ...to make a distinction is, you know, between Julian trying to help crack a password to a government system, I find that very, very different, just on the surface, than trying to exfiltrate messages and, as you said, an anti-forensic way.
[43:27.220 --> 43:29.260]  I mean, let's be real.
[43:29.280 --> 43:47.600]  If you're removing... you're trying to remove the possibility of being traced but get information that is damning, you're at significant risk, depending on who you're dealing with, whether it's the state actor or other folks that may wish you ill.
[43:47.600 --> 43:53.560]  I mean, where, I guess, would protecting sources...
[43:53.560 --> 43:55.660]  Where would the bounds be, really?
[43:55.820 --> 44:01.400]  I mean, depending on the level of risk, wouldn't that just be due diligence and, like, operational security?
[44:01.400 --> 44:06.720]  Like, hey, don't do this in a stupid way, or you will be hurt, or you will be found out.
[44:06.720 --> 44:07.620]  I mean, I don't know.
[44:07.680 --> 44:11.120]  That seems wholly different than breaking a password to a government system.
[44:11.240 --> 44:11.940]  Doesn't it to you?
[44:12.600 --> 44:13.080]  Yeah.
[44:13.400 --> 44:15.380]  Look, it's a very gray line here, right?
[44:15.460 --> 44:23.320]  I mean, you obviously want to protect your sources and methods in the same way that an intelligence community would want to protect their sources and methods, right?
[44:23.480 --> 44:24.080]  I mean, so...
[44:24.760 --> 44:44.840]  But there's a big difference, I think, between giving general advice that you need to be careful and make sure that this cannot be tracked back to you in a general sense, as opposed to saying giving very prescriptive instructions to one of your sources about how to do that.
[44:45.020 --> 44:52.400]  And I think in the latter case, that could be crossing the line because that could involve the destruction of somebody else's data.
[44:52.560 --> 44:55.480]  It could involve the alteration of somebody else's logs.
[44:55.600 --> 45:00.420]  And that's probably something that's best left to the source to figure out how to do.
[45:00.560 --> 45:06.780]  And in most cases, the source would be the best person to figure out how to do that, not necessarily the reporter.
[45:06.780 --> 45:23.820]  Now, if, as is alleged here, Glenn Greenwald was simply in touch with his sources while they were exfiltrating these cell phone messages and telegram communications, that's a wholly different situation than providing them prescriptive advice, in my opinion.
[45:23.820 --> 45:24.780]  Right.
[45:25.040 --> 45:27.760]  And the... Go ahead, Rob.
[45:27.920 --> 45:28.560]  I'm sorry.
[45:28.800 --> 45:35.040]  There's a non-profit here in town called the Committee to Protect Journalists, which is just what it sounds like.
[45:35.120 --> 45:36.300]  And they released a statement.
[45:37.180 --> 45:38.240]  And here it is.
[45:38.480 --> 45:48.720]  Charging journalists with criminal activity based on interactions with sources sends a chilling message to reporters working on sensitive stories at a time when the Brazilian media is increasingly under attack from officials in its own government.
[45:49.740 --> 45:52.740]  And, yeah, do you think that there's that aspect to this?
[45:52.840 --> 45:55.400]  Like, could this be just an intentional sort of chilling effect?
[45:56.240 --> 45:57.060]  Well, of course.
[45:57.220 --> 45:58.600]  I mean, look what you're dealing with.
[45:58.780 --> 46:02.360]  And this is something I think we all need to wake up to, including Glenn Greenwald.
[46:03.180 --> 46:05.680]  Brazil is, in effect, a fascist regime right now.
[46:05.840 --> 46:07.340]  We're not too far behind.
[46:08.320 --> 46:14.440]  And if you think that Trump was not aware of this going on before it happened, you better think again.
[46:14.440 --> 46:21.620]  I don't think Glenn Greenwald realizes this enough, that the Trump regime is truly the enemy here.
[46:22.500 --> 46:26.160]  So much time is spent attacking what Democrats are doing.
[46:26.280 --> 46:27.860]  Democrats have no power right now.
[46:28.160 --> 46:39.360]  And really, we need to get out of the sewer that we're in right now before we can start improving things outside of that.
[46:39.360 --> 46:45.540]  We are in a situation where the right people are getting locked up everywhere.
[46:45.820 --> 46:48.200]  Look, Chelsea Manning is in prison right now.
[46:48.320 --> 46:49.840]  Julian Assange is in prison right now.
[46:50.100 --> 46:51.500]  Glenn Greenwald is facing prison.
[46:51.700 --> 46:53.720]  You see a parallel here?
[46:54.140 --> 47:03.360]  You know, the Snowden leaks of years ago brought such an amazing treasure trove of information to us.
[47:03.520 --> 47:05.740]  In my opinion, those people should be celebrated.
[47:05.740 --> 47:12.640]  Instead, what you're seeing, one by one, they are being confined or persecuted in one way or another.
[47:12.900 --> 47:22.020]  And these right-wing fascist regimes that are taking hold throughout the planet are basically engineering this.
[47:22.140 --> 47:29.740]  Now, whether or not you choose to believe it's coordinated, it is really interesting how those people always wind up paying the price.
[47:29.740 --> 47:37.960]  And people who refuse to obey the law, who happen to be related to people in power or part of that regime, they walk free.
[47:38.000 --> 47:42.120]  So we need to see what's really going on here.
[47:42.320 --> 47:52.580]  And anybody who is ruffling feathers needs to have a lot of protection, needs to really be thinking, what are they going to do when something happens?
[47:52.580 --> 47:55.600]  Because we're seeing increasingly things like this happen.
[47:55.980 --> 48:13.440]  Yeah, if you can get past the, like, whether a leaker should or should not have leaked something and actually look at the substance, and you appreciate that a lot of what has been released about the NSA's wiretapping programs and adventure and aspirations to boot,
[48:14.320 --> 48:33.640]  and you, you know, that any, I think, technical, smart, technical person pretty much knew was possible, but then with evidence of it would then basically be confirmed in their mind or confirmed for the world, really, what many of those folks had suspected,
[48:33.640 --> 48:36.060]  what would be the next logical step?
[48:36.060 --> 48:40.540]  So, okay, the system we're subject to is all around us.
[48:40.660 --> 48:41.720]  Then what happens?
[48:41.920 --> 48:42.980]  Who's controlling it?
[48:43.080 --> 48:44.300]  And what do they do with it?
[48:44.460 --> 48:46.320]  Well, now we're at the precipice of that.
[48:46.500 --> 48:47.260]  Who controls it?
[48:48.240 --> 48:49.020]  Who's using it?
[48:49.080 --> 48:50.100]  And what are they doing with it?
[48:50.220 --> 48:51.340]  We're seeing it in other countries.
[48:51.600 --> 48:55.300]  How could that not be something we all share concern about?
[48:55.640 --> 48:58.400]  You know, I think you both make very fair points.
[48:58.400 --> 49:05.540]  And I'd like to present, you know, the counterside of this from the law enforcement perspective, and I think from the perspective of a lot of Americans as well.
[49:06.060 --> 49:18.380]  Is that journalistic integrity and reporting is one thing, but the First Amendment does not guarantee the right of a journalist to break the criminal laws of the United States willy-nilly and do whatever the hell they want.
[49:18.560 --> 49:20.360]  It certainly does not do that.
[49:20.440 --> 49:24.700]  And I think with respect to Snowden, what he did was an act of civil disobedience.
[49:24.700 --> 49:30.620]  If he comes back to the United States or if he's extradited back to the United States, I believe he should stand trial for what he did.
[49:31.020 --> 49:34.860]  The president at that time could then determine whether or not he should be pardoned.
[49:34.860 --> 49:36.620]  That would be up to his discretion.
[49:36.640 --> 49:40.100]  With respect to Julian Assange, I believe that he...
[49:40.100 --> 49:55.120]  With respect to the allegations contained in the first indictment that was levied against him from, I believe it was the Eastern District of Virginia, and I wrote about this too, very publicly, I believe that they were very narrowly tailored, and if they were proven true,
[49:55.340 --> 50:03.440]  he probably did break the law in assisting Chelsea Manning by attempting to crack a DOD password.
[50:04.300 --> 50:12.980]  And doing so, I believe it was with a rainbow table, by trying to reverse the hash of a password with a rainbow table, and perhaps some anti-forensic behavior as well.
[50:13.120 --> 50:23.600]  All of that, I think, does in fact cross the line, and journalists should not be allowed by hiding behind the First Amendment to break the criminal laws of the United States.
[50:23.740 --> 50:31.580]  What is happening here, I think, though, with Glenn Greenwald and with the second indictment with respect to Julian Assange is something far different.
[50:31.760 --> 50:40.700]  They are not going after Julian Assange and Glenn Greenwald because they want to enforce the criminal laws of the United States or the criminal laws of Brazil.
[50:40.700 --> 50:51.120]  They are attacking the very act of journalism itself, the very act of interacting with your sources, the very act of receiving information that could be damaging to the government.
[50:51.280 --> 51:16.880]  That is, I think, the most scary component of this, and I don't think that we should necessarily conflate what could be the lawful whistleblowing activities on an unconstitutional program for somebody like Snowden with what else was in that smash-and-grab jog that he did when he released all of that information over to Snowden and various media outlets to then determine when to publish that
[51:16.880 --> 51:23.800]  information, a lot of which pertain to the lawful targeting and intelligence collection activities of the United States.
[51:24.460 --> 51:28.000]  You mean Snowden when he released it to Greenwald and Laura Poitras?
[51:28.220 --> 51:28.540]  That's correct.
[51:28.960 --> 51:45.640]  And while I think that was the right thing to do, at least the journalists let them sift through it, I think, you know, we need to set our priorities here because if we focus too much on, well, did this journalist break the law, you're kind of ignoring what the journalists have revealed in the first place.
[51:45.860 --> 51:52.340]  For instance, who has been prosecuted in the NSA for domestic spying?
[51:52.480 --> 51:53.560]  What are their names?
[51:53.620 --> 51:54.840]  Have we heard anything about that?
[51:55.000 --> 52:01.520]  How about all the soldiers that were part of the massacre that was revealed in collateral murder?
[52:01.740 --> 52:02.440]  What are their names?
[52:02.540 --> 52:03.460]  Were they ever prosecuted?
[52:03.460 --> 52:23.360]  If we focus so much on just the journalists, if they follow the letter of the law, then, you know, we can't be surprised when the next step is to attack the very concept of journalism itself, because they're able to lock those people up, they're able to prosecute them and let the true criminals get away with it.
[52:23.520 --> 52:27.580]  It just tells you that we don't care that much about journalism in the first place.
[52:28.280 --> 52:30.960]  Well, I don't know necessarily about that.
[52:30.960 --> 52:39.900]  I mean, my point here is that I don't think journalists should be treated any differently than any other person in the United States, that the criminal laws have to apply equally.
[52:40.440 --> 52:41.900]  And that the First Amendment...
[52:41.900 --> 52:42.720]  Well, it would be nice to hear that said.
[52:42.780 --> 52:48.260]  It would be nice to hear that said about people from the NSA, people from the military, people from the government.
[52:48.480 --> 52:53.200]  How come John Bolton is walking around right now while Chelsea Manning is in prison?
[52:53.380 --> 52:56.940]  Chelsea Manning refused to testify against Julian Assange.
[52:57.160 --> 53:00.440]  John Bolton refused to testify against Trump.
[53:00.960 --> 53:02.120]  So what's the difference?
[53:02.340 --> 53:03.000]  Explain that to me.
[53:03.140 --> 53:04.960]  One has connections, one does not.
[53:05.080 --> 53:08.840]  One is seen as the enemy of a regime and one is part of the regime.
[53:09.080 --> 53:15.320]  Well, anybody who refuses to testify in a grand jury proceeding is going to be in a similar situation to Chelsea Manning.
[53:15.420 --> 53:17.000]  And I think that that's right.
[53:17.640 --> 53:25.120]  But as you said, the important thing is to not lose sight of the actual story, the actual material and what it says rather than how it was leaked.
[53:25.220 --> 53:33.280]  I mean, when the Pentagon papers were snuck out of a building in boxes full of photocopies, the stories didn't all begin with they didn't have permission to use all that copy paper.
[53:34.480 --> 53:34.980]  Right.
[53:35.140 --> 53:39.320]  And the way whistleblowers have been treated in this country has been absolutely abominable.
[53:39.740 --> 53:46.640]  And none of this helps the journalistic cause or the boundaries of the First Amendment.
[53:46.820 --> 53:56.440]  I mean, I think you're right, Emmanuel, and that we're seeing is the very calculated and strategic erosion of the First Amendment itself and the protections that journalists have.
[53:56.560 --> 53:59.380]  And this assault on journalism can have a spillover effect.
[53:59.520 --> 54:00.480]  It can have a chilling effect.
[54:01.400 --> 54:16.580]  And in an age where we are rife with disinformation and propaganda campaigns on the very social media platforms that we helped create with the Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, our own federal laws that helped create these things, you know,
[54:16.640 --> 54:18.960]  it's all the more important to protect these journalists.
[54:19.180 --> 54:23.680]  My point, though, I think is a fair one, is that they shouldn't cross the line.
[54:23.680 --> 54:25.320]  They shouldn't engage in criminal activity.
[54:25.500 --> 54:34.200]  I don't necessarily think that Glenn Greenwald did here, and I haven't seen anything in any of the reporting or the complaint itself that indicates otherwise.
[54:34.960 --> 54:44.120]  Well, the thing to remember, and this is something that came up in our talk at McGill, is that it's very easy to make somebody seem like they committed a crime.
[54:44.120 --> 54:50.360]  We've seen that in the hacker world constantly because people don't understand what hackers actually did.
[54:50.480 --> 54:57.080]  So it's easy to say, oh, this person broke into a system or accessed something they weren't supposed to access.
[54:57.100 --> 55:11.240]  We talked about the Aaron Schwartz case and how it eventually cost him his life because people didn't understand that he was actually, in fact, accessing something that should have been free to read for everybody, academic journals.
[55:12.080 --> 55:20.900]  But you see the same thing with journalists or anybody that the powers that be want to make seem like they committed some kind of a crime.
[55:21.120 --> 55:23.560]  You're saying they shouldn't commit crimes.
[55:23.640 --> 55:25.120]  Yeah, nobody should commit crimes.
[55:25.260 --> 55:27.080]  But where is the actual evidence?
[55:27.100 --> 55:32.720]  What we're seeing is something that the federal government or the Brazilian government is claiming.
[55:32.820 --> 55:36.280]  But when you look at actual evidence, does it hold up?
[55:36.420 --> 55:39.060]  When you understand the technology, does it hold up?
[55:39.140 --> 55:46.780]  We've seen this with our friend Virgil's case recently where every bit of the indictments that I've seen against him are other nonsense.
[55:46.820 --> 55:48.940]  But it's easy to make people believe in.
[55:48.980 --> 55:55.140]  It's easy to make people think somebody is guilty if you phrase something in a particular way and they don't have all the facts.
[55:55.340 --> 55:57.040]  So we have to be extremely careful.
[55:57.160 --> 56:05.900]  Journalists put their necks on the line all the time and they need special protection in addition to the normal protections that people get.
[56:06.100 --> 56:27.020]  And one other thing I would add is just the reminder that a lot of the laws themselves are not static and much of what people sort of got away with hackers, scofflaws, whatever, freaks in the 80s, they were doing things that really did not have any laws on the books.
[56:27.780 --> 56:43.880]  And I think as technology is evolving and dare I say legislature, I think there's still a disconnect between the understanding of the technical means and methods and the legal framework surrounding it.
[56:44.200 --> 56:55.940]  Like, you know, the article 4, Amendment 4, the right to your papers and unlawful seizure, I mean, I think that applies with dragnet surveillance.
[56:56.460 --> 57:04.540]  And I think a lot of that came out of, that law came out of a reactionary response to September 11th.
[57:04.680 --> 57:09.880]  I mean, you can really start getting into where the genesis of these things came from.
[57:09.880 --> 57:14.400]  and what then was drug into it in the process.
[57:14.400 --> 57:21.980]  But the laws themselves are often not exactly related to what people are doing.
[57:22.500 --> 57:25.740]  Okay, and we're going to have to leave it there because we're just about out of time.
[57:26.120 --> 57:30.000]  But thank you, Emmanuel and Kyle, for joining us.
[57:30.700 --> 57:34.340]  Hey, guys, Rob, can I say one thing because people are asking us about this?
[57:34.500 --> 57:34.700]  Absolutely.
[57:34.720 --> 57:40.780]  We're supposed to announce Hotel Information for Hope and that is actually going to be announced next week.
[57:40.960 --> 57:42.180]  We're supposed to announce it this week.
[57:42.340 --> 57:43.600]  We're still working out details.
[57:43.780 --> 57:45.080]  Early next week we should have something.
[57:45.500 --> 57:45.920]  We are indeed.
[57:46.340 --> 57:53.080]  Okay, and stay tuned to us at hope.net and hope.conf on Twitter for the latest on the Hope Conference as it comes out.
[57:53.520 --> 58:01.320]  Send us email oth at 2600.com and keep listening and keep your eyes open.
[58:01.900 --> 58:04.140]  For Off the Hook, this is Rob T.
[58:04.280 --> 58:04.640]  Firefly.
[58:04.900 --> 58:06.020]  Have an excellent week.
[58:10.540 --> 59:00.060]  I'm so worried about what's happening today in the Middle East you know and I'm so worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got at Heathrow I'm so worried about the fashions yesterday I don't think they're good for your feet and I'm so worried about the shows on TV that sometimes they want to repeat I'm so worried about modern technology I'm so worried about all the things that they dump
[59:00.060 --> 59:10.480]  in the city I'm so worried about my hair falling out at the state of the world today.
[59:10.620 --> 59:21.120]  And I'm so worried about being so full of doubt about everything anyway.
[59:21.660 --> 59:27.740]  I'm so worried about everything that can go wrong.
[59:27.740 --> 59:34.740]  I'm so worried about whether people like this are on.
[59:34.880 --> 59:40.300]  I'm so worried about this very next verse.
[59:40.560 --> 59:43.380]  It isn't the best that I've got.
[59:43.740 --> 59:54.120]  And I'm so worried about whether I should go on or whether I shouldn't just stop.
[59:54.120 --> 01:00:01.280]  I'm so worried about whether I ought to have stopped.
[01:00:01.880 --> 01:00:07.640]  And I'm worried because it's the sort of thing I ought to know.
[01:00:08.200 --> 01:00:19.580]  I'm so worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got to teach you from.
[01:00:25.250 --> 01:00:31.070]  I'm so worried about whether I should have stopped.
[01:00:31.450 --> 01:00:52.330]  And I'm so worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got to teach you from.
[01:00:53.210 --> 01:00:54.750]  I'm so worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got to teach me from.
[01:00:54.750 --> 01:00:55.230]  And I'll see you later in the next week.