[00:00.130 --> 00:04.130]  Meetings of the local station board are open to the public.
[00:04.130 --> 00:08.090]  And as always, there will be an opportunity for public comment.
[00:08.570 --> 00:10.730]  The meeting is wheelchair accessible.
[00:11.110 --> 00:11.910]  Join us.
[00:12.290 --> 00:22.990]  Again, that's Wednesday, February 12th at 7pm at the YWCA 33rd Avenue, Brooklyn, New York.
[00:23.570 --> 00:26.890]  Listeners and the public are invited and welcome.
[00:27.090 --> 00:28.690]  It's your radio station.
[00:28.690 --> 00:31.150]  Please come out and voice your opinion.
[00:34.610 --> 00:39.000]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:39.200 --> 00:40.500]  The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:40.640 --> 00:42.940]  Time, once again, for Off the Hook.
[01:07.310 --> 01:10.090]  I hope that's understood, but make me know.
[01:35.510 --> 01:39.090]  Okay, we're going to get an early start tonight because we have so much to cover.
[01:39.130 --> 01:40.650]  And I just found out it's a fundraising edition.
[01:40.650 --> 01:43.590]  So please support the radio station.
[01:43.710 --> 01:44.970]  Support this magical place.
[01:45.290 --> 01:47.210]  We'll get out the phone number in just a minute.
[01:47.270 --> 01:48.050]  This is Off the Hook.
[01:48.170 --> 01:49.470]  Emmanuel Goldstein here tonight.
[01:49.650 --> 01:52.870]  Joined tonight by Kyle.
[01:53.310 --> 01:54.210]  Hello, y'all.
[01:54.670 --> 01:55.070]  Alex.
[01:55.510 --> 01:56.530]  Good night, Spartacus.
[01:56.690 --> 01:56.970]  Gila.
[01:57.330 --> 01:58.190]  Good night, Spartacus.
[01:58.610 --> 01:59.410]  All right, stop that.
[01:59.610 --> 02:01.770]  And, yeah, Kirk Douglas died, I know.
[02:02.230 --> 02:02.810]  And Rob?
[02:03.350 --> 02:04.730]  I'm Spartacus and so is my wife.
[02:04.850 --> 02:06.290]  And hey, Volta, in the distance over there.
[02:06.390 --> 02:08.190]  Hey, he's all the way in the back of the room.
[02:10.530 --> 02:12.090]  It's, like I said, a fundraising edition.
[02:12.090 --> 02:12.710]  What's the phone number?
[02:12.790 --> 02:13.730]  Someone want to give out the phone number?
[02:14.490 --> 02:19.730]  The phone number is 516-620-3602.
[02:20.010 --> 02:22.490]  Or you could go to give2wbai.org.
[02:22.570 --> 02:23.810]  And become a BAI buddy.
[02:23.910 --> 02:26.390]  And what that means is you pledge a certain amount every month.
[02:26.390 --> 02:29.410]  It's not very much, but every month counts up.
[02:29.570 --> 02:32.450]  It adds up to an entire year.
[02:32.610 --> 02:35.310]  And that makes things really worthwhile for us.
[02:35.570 --> 02:38.850]  Yeah, and it's a contribution that we can count on.
[02:39.030 --> 02:39.890]  We know it's there.
[02:40.170 --> 02:46.590]  And that forms a really good foundation for general operations and all of those associated costs.
[02:47.390 --> 02:47.950]  That's right.
[02:48.050 --> 02:48.370]  That's right.
[02:48.530 --> 02:53.790]  So, number one, once again, it's 516-620-3605.
[02:54.070 --> 02:54.710]  0-2.
[02:54.710 --> 02:54.910]  0-2.
[02:54.930 --> 02:56.070]  I'm sorry, 0-2.
[02:56.270 --> 02:57.410]  Strength in numbers, people.
[02:57.570 --> 03:01.650]  Or you can go to give2wbai.org and pledge that way online.
[03:02.110 --> 03:03.470]  And keep this place going.
[03:04.230 --> 03:05.710]  Well, we have a lot to talk about tonight.
[03:05.710 --> 03:09.730]  And I wanted to start with something that is a bit of a miracle.
[03:10.570 --> 03:15.230]  A bit of something really bizarre and weird that can only happen to us.
[03:15.370 --> 03:19.330]  And until the other day, Kyle, you were the only other person on the planet who knew about it.
[03:19.710 --> 03:21.830]  It was an experiment.
[03:21.830 --> 03:22.910]  It was an experiment.
[03:23.190 --> 03:29.470]  We have many experiments going on, most of which do not come to fruition, most of which you will never hear about.
[03:29.690 --> 03:31.070]  This one is different.
[03:31.570 --> 03:39.110]  You may recall in December of 2018, you should recall, because you should pay attention to everything that we do.
[03:39.510 --> 03:42.590]  I'm talking to you guys in the room, the listeners, do what you please.
[03:43.650 --> 03:48.310]  But in December of 2018, we were on the high seas.
[03:48.790 --> 03:49.710]  Do you remember that, Rob?
[03:50.010 --> 03:51.150]  I do remember that.
[03:51.150 --> 03:51.590]  Good, good.
[03:51.690 --> 03:52.550]  Okay, I'm glad you remember.
[03:53.250 --> 03:56.130]  We were traveling on the QM2.
[03:56.350 --> 03:56.950]  That's right.
[03:57.050 --> 03:58.510]  Specifically in the North Atlantic.
[03:58.730 --> 04:00.390]  The North Atlantic, because that's how you get to Europe.
[04:00.590 --> 04:03.810]  And we took the boat all the way over there.
[04:03.890 --> 04:05.430]  It was my second time, Kyle's first time.
[04:05.850 --> 04:08.630]  And it was an amazing experience.
[04:08.630 --> 04:09.470]  That's not the secret.
[04:09.470 --> 04:12.010]  You all knew about that, because I think we did a radio show from there or something.
[04:12.590 --> 04:19.010]  In the middle of the ocean, we had a secret.
[04:19.190 --> 04:23.190]  We had something extra that was added to our baggage.
[04:23.870 --> 04:29.510]  It was a bottle of Club Mate, you know, the German energy drink that we've become known for in this country.
[04:30.450 --> 04:33.670]  Except it didn't have any Club Mate in it.
[04:33.670 --> 04:41.850]  It had, instead, a note that we stuck inside the bottle before hurling it off into the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
[04:42.050 --> 04:43.790]  I'm going to read to you what the note said.
[04:44.270 --> 04:46.890]  It was on 2600 letterhead.
[04:47.670 --> 04:48.850]  And it said, Greetings.
[04:49.550 --> 04:58.990]  You have found our message in a bottle, which was dropped in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean on December 11th, 2018, from the Queen Mary II, on its voyage from New York to England.
[04:59.630 --> 05:06.290]  We will award you the equivalent of US $1,000 if you contact us with the contents of this message.
[05:06.610 --> 05:16.030]  In addition, we will also donate the equivalent of US $1,000 to an organization of your choice that helps to keep our oceans clean.
[05:16.510 --> 05:22.850]  We feel a bit guilty for having dropped a bottle into the ocean, but we also thought the result in communications might be worth it.
[05:23.490 --> 05:34.310]  While it's likely this bottle will never be found, it's also possible that this will serve as a small time capsule from one point in history to another.
[05:35.550 --> 05:48.270]  2018 is proving to be a pivotal and volatile year in our history, and we hope that anyone reading this in the future, whether in two weeks or 500 years, we'll have learned from our mistakes and made some great advancements.
[05:48.630 --> 05:55.810]  In case it's not clear, or you're in a year where nobody remembers, 2600 Magazine is a publication by, for, and about computer hackers.
[05:56.070 --> 05:58.990]  We test technology, question authority, and push the limits.
[05:59.570 --> 06:02.870]  Hopefully, people still do that whenever this message is read.
[06:03.410 --> 06:08.890]  And if you're still around, the address above should work if we've kept paying for the post office box.
[06:09.190 --> 06:22.470]  You can also try reaching us via email, if that still exists, at addresses like info at 2600.com, webmaster at 2600.com, and I found a bottle in the ocean at 2600.com.
[06:22.790 --> 06:27.670]  The phone number above should also still work if phones exist and we've kept paying the bill.
[06:28.290 --> 06:40.110]  We've put this message inside one of our prepaid envelopes, which won't work outside of the United States, incidentally, in order to protect the letters from fading in the inevitable sunlight the bottle will be exposed to.
[06:40.550 --> 06:44.570]  And speaking of the bottle, don't feel too bad if you broke it to get to this message.
[06:44.990 --> 06:46.710]  We sympathize with your eagerness.
[06:47.070 --> 06:51.670]  But we are quite proud of this bottle and its cap, which apparently helped keep water out quite effectively.
[06:52.710 --> 06:58.610]  It once contained a beverage known as Club Mate, which is a German energy drink.
[06:59.310 --> 07:02.250]  Perhaps remnants of its labels on the bottle are still visible.
[07:02.650 --> 07:07.090]  We thought we might get a bit more mileage out of the bottle by tossing it overboard and seeing what happened.
[07:07.630 --> 07:09.490]  Anyway, that's about the whole story.
[07:09.670 --> 07:13.350]  We'll be astounded if anyone actually reads this in our lifetime.
[07:13.790 --> 07:17.530]  And our descendants will also be a bit surprised since we don't plan on telling them.
[07:18.010 --> 07:24.810]  Whatever the scenario, you have some real history in your hands, or tentacles, etc., if the humans are no longer around.
[07:25.010 --> 07:28.070]  Sign the 2600 team of mischief and exploration.
[07:29.550 --> 07:33.910]  We dropped that into the water on December 11th, 2018.
[07:35.070 --> 07:45.410]  And on Sunday, we got an email from Henry Anderton of Shetland, north of Scotland.
[07:46.590 --> 07:48.090]  And here's his story.
[07:48.490 --> 07:53.290]  Well, Henry, congratulations, first of all, on finding the bottle.
[07:54.050 --> 07:54.210]  Yeah.
[07:56.030 --> 07:57.730]  It's quite extraordinary.
[07:58.070 --> 07:59.830]  It must have come up on the Gulf Stream.
[08:00.730 --> 08:05.330]  Can you describe what you were doing on Sunday morning when you discovered the bottle?
[08:05.650 --> 08:09.790]  Yeah, I'd been putting feed blocks out to the sheep.
[08:10.290 --> 08:11.730]  And it was a beautiful day.
[08:11.730 --> 08:20.410]  So I thought I'd go along the beaches and have a look and pick up plastic bottles and rope and all the plastic rubbish that gets washed up.
[08:21.070 --> 08:25.910]  And I just came across this glass bottle and I thought, oh, there's a message in there.
[08:26.410 --> 08:31.170]  So I took it home and opened it up.
[08:31.250 --> 08:35.270]  And this message from 2600.
[08:36.570 --> 08:39.890]  Was this the first message in a bottle you've ever found?
[08:40.810 --> 08:42.970]  No, I found one some years ago.
[08:43.730 --> 08:51.530]  A lad from Newcastle-on-Tyne had been on a holiday in Orkney and he dropped it in the ocean.
[08:52.230 --> 08:55.850]  And it washed up in more or less the same place.
[08:56.150 --> 08:59.610]  But I wrote to them, but never heard anything back from them.
[08:59.610 --> 09:02.650]  Wow, so this is not the first time you've found one.
[09:03.510 --> 09:11.730]  Is trash and other bottles like this, is that a phenomenon that's always been occurring there on the shoreline?
[09:13.350 --> 09:15.810]  We get quite a lot of rubbish coming ashore.
[09:16.910 --> 09:21.070]  It seems to come from all over the world.
[09:21.530 --> 09:24.850]  A lot from Scandinavia, a lot from the Caribbean.
[09:26.130 --> 09:27.990]  A lot of shotgun cartridges.
[09:28.570 --> 09:29.550]  You know, spend a lot of rubbish at once.
[09:30.710 --> 09:34.370]  Probably from the cruise liners doing shooting on board.
[09:35.850 --> 09:37.390]  Yeah, we get a lot of rubbish.
[09:37.590 --> 09:41.430]  In Shetland, we have what we call the Vore Red Up.
[09:41.850 --> 09:43.950]  It's the spring clean up.
[09:44.470 --> 09:50.210]  But it's easier for me to go around every week or ten days and gather up.
[09:50.270 --> 09:52.130]  And it's not such a big job in the spring.
[09:52.630 --> 09:56.670]  Has waste like this been more of a problem, would you say?
[09:56.930 --> 09:58.630]  Or is it improving at all?
[09:58.630 --> 10:03.310]  No, it hasn't changed very much over the years.
[10:03.610 --> 10:13.750]  You know, there are teams of volunteers go around the shores of Shetland every spring, and they probably gather about 80 tons of rubbish.
[10:14.210 --> 10:18.350]  But I prefer to go and collect on a more regular basis.
[10:18.690 --> 10:21.270]  And, you know, it's a lot easier for me to do that.
[10:21.370 --> 10:23.150]  I'll get two or three bags of rubbish a week.
[10:23.910 --> 10:27.090]  And what condition was the bottle in when you found it?
[10:27.630 --> 10:28.190]  Oh, perfect.
[10:28.430 --> 10:30.110]  I mean, it wasn't broken at all.
[10:30.250 --> 10:33.270]  In fact, it's all packed up, ready to send back to you.
[10:33.730 --> 10:35.670]  You say you lived there for 50 years.
[10:35.670 --> 10:36.770]  Are you from there?
[10:36.770 --> 10:45.330]  Well, I was born in North London, raised in Ireland, and I traveled around the world back in the 60s.
[10:45.510 --> 10:49.590]  I was in America for six and a half months, seven months.
[10:50.170 --> 10:52.010]  They tried to send me to Vietnam.
[10:52.010 --> 10:53.730]  I didn't particularly want to go there.
[10:53.730 --> 10:55.350]  So I went to New Zealand instead.
[10:55.910 --> 10:57.570]  And then I came home eventually.
[10:57.570 --> 10:59.990]  What kind of work were you doing?
[11:00.430 --> 11:01.550]  Were you in...?
[11:01.550 --> 11:03.230]  I was on farm work all the time.
[11:03.530 --> 11:08.590]  I did two years at Agricultural College down in England.
[11:09.470 --> 11:16.650]  And then I inherited an island in Shetland in 1969.
[11:17.190 --> 11:18.830]  So that's what brought me up here.
[11:19.090 --> 11:20.850]  You inherited an island?
[11:23.030 --> 11:29.250]  Yeah, 750-acre island with a Scottish baronial style mansion house on it.
[11:29.530 --> 11:31.690]  Well, you know, it was 100 years on.
[11:31.770 --> 11:33.010]  It was built by my great uncle.
[11:33.310 --> 11:35.830]  He was in the wool business back in Yorkshire.
[11:36.430 --> 11:39.130]  And this was his holiday residence for the summer.
[11:40.010 --> 11:43.670]  And so it was a big mansion house, and I couldn't afford to keep it.
[11:43.790 --> 11:46.070]  So I put the place on the market.
[11:46.070 --> 11:48.370]  It took me 13 years to find a customer.
[11:49.530 --> 11:54.950]  And so they bought it 23, 4 years ago.
[11:55.170 --> 12:01.610]  Well, Henry, when we tossed the bottle into the ocean, we offered to whoever found it a $1,000 reward.
[12:01.910 --> 12:04.330]  What will you be spending your $1,000 on?
[12:05.130 --> 12:13.690]  Ah, well, I've just acquired one of these old-fashioned red telephone kiosks from British Telecom.
[12:14.790 --> 12:22.350]  Because of the improvements in the mobile network, nobody is using these telephone boxes anymore.
[12:22.710 --> 12:26.470]  So they've taken out the equipment, and we've bought the box.
[12:26.730 --> 12:35.130]  But we're going to have to spend about 3,000 pounds on restoring it, because it lost its door in a gale two winters ago.
[12:36.410 --> 12:39.930]  So we have to buy a new door, which is 1,000 pounds.
[12:40.350 --> 12:48.890]  And then we have to buy new stuff to go inside to support the windows, and so on.
[12:48.990 --> 12:52.070]  And then we have to paint it up, and hopefully we'll get on to that in the summer.
[12:52.650 --> 12:58.250]  You know, we publish a magazine that features payphones and payphone kiosks.
[12:58.770 --> 13:03.930]  So the odds of somebody finding our bottle who is also into that are simply astronomical.
[13:04.290 --> 13:08.190]  But we also own a phone booth of our own from the 1950s in America.
[13:08.390 --> 13:10.630]  So that's pretty incredible.
[13:10.790 --> 13:13.090]  Your phone kiosk, though, is still in use, is it not?
[13:13.510 --> 13:15.490]  No, no, it's out of use now.
[13:15.870 --> 13:16.310]  I see.
[13:16.570 --> 13:22.130]  The BT came and took the telephone equipment out about a month, six weeks ago.
[13:23.350 --> 13:27.610]  They've cut the power off, and we're not allowed to use it for telecommunications.
[13:28.890 --> 13:31.830]  There was a 12-page document that came with it.
[13:33.350 --> 13:37.790]  Well, ours was a wood model for indoor use.
[13:38.270 --> 13:45.690]  And unfortunately, it still has the inner workings and the telephone, of course, but not connected.
[13:46.650 --> 13:52.150]  I understand those are very, very heavy, and it's on a concrete pad, right?
[13:52.610 --> 13:52.830]  Yeah.
[13:53.090 --> 13:56.850]  No, I mean, some people have asked me if I was going to move it.
[13:56.890 --> 13:59.790]  And I said, no, no, it's been there since 1950.
[14:00.550 --> 14:04.110]  And I want to leave it there because, you know, it's a sort of a landmark.
[14:05.590 --> 14:07.490]  People give directions by it.
[14:07.630 --> 14:09.770]  You know, past the phone boxes on the left.
[14:10.630 --> 14:11.010]  Wow.
[14:11.010 --> 14:14.890]  And, of course, you don't expect to see a phone box in the middle of nowhere.
[14:15.290 --> 14:20.690]  But it was used extensively in the 15s, 60s, and early 70s.
[14:20.790 --> 14:23.970]  And then everybody started to get telephones in their houses.
[14:24.410 --> 14:26.470]  And now, of course, everybody's got mobiles.
[14:26.730 --> 14:39.630]  Well, people walking around, perhaps, using their mobile phones, could use this box you have in a refurbished form to at least have shelter while they're talking on their mobile phones.
[14:39.630 --> 14:40.430]  Exactly.
[14:40.830 --> 14:40.950]  Yeah.
[14:41.350 --> 14:44.770]  But, you know, the first job is to try and track down a door.
[14:46.030 --> 14:49.710]  There is a company that supplies spare parts for these kiosks.
[14:50.070 --> 14:52.430]  But a new door is £1,000.
[14:52.970 --> 15:00.470]  And, you know, we're going to try and do some crowdfunding and see if we can raise some money to help pay for it.
[15:00.530 --> 15:03.090]  But $1,000 will go a long way towards helping it.
[15:03.090 --> 15:06.710]  Well, $1,000 just literally showed up on your shoreline.
[15:06.910 --> 15:07.830]  So we're happy.
[15:07.930 --> 15:10.650]  We're so happy to have played a part in that.
[15:10.790 --> 15:16.790]  And, of course, we also said we'd donate another $1,000 to a cause of your choice.
[15:16.790 --> 15:18.770]  And you picked the Ocean Cleanup Campaign.
[15:18.970 --> 15:20.030]  Can you tell us something about that?
[15:20.030 --> 15:22.710]  Well, only that I've seen it on television.
[15:23.230 --> 15:28.290]  And, you know, it's something that's pretty close to my heart.
[15:28.550 --> 15:32.930]  I personally don't see plastic as the main problem.
[15:33.230 --> 15:37.750]  The main problem is people can't dispose of it properly.
[15:38.470 --> 15:43.190]  And so it winds up in the rivers and the waterways and then out to sea and so on.
[15:43.390 --> 15:46.710]  And, of course, it's just devastating wildlife out there.
[15:46.730 --> 15:49.690]  And it's not a good scenario.
[15:50.790 --> 16:03.090]  Well, Henry Anderton, thank you so much for finding our bottle and for the work that you do and just for being a real amazing representative of Shetland, the place that we certainly want to learn more about.
[16:03.510 --> 16:06.990]  Well, if you ever come to Shetland, please be sure.
[16:06.990 --> 16:08.470]  And come and see us.
[16:09.050 --> 16:10.110]  We will do that.
[16:10.410 --> 16:11.370]  Thank you again.
[16:11.470 --> 16:11.770]  Okay.
[16:12.510 --> 16:12.950]  Bye-bye.
[16:14.190 --> 16:22.790]  And that was Henry Anderton of Shetland who found our Club Mate bottle tossed into the middle of the Atlantic Ocean in December of 2018.
[16:22.790 --> 16:31.430]  To hear the full interview, go to our website, www.2600.com slash off the hook when the February 5th show is posted later tonight.
[16:31.430 --> 16:32.610]  We will have some pictures.
[16:32.610 --> 16:34.110]  We'll also have the full interview.
[16:34.930 --> 16:38.330]  That, folks, was an amazing saga.
[16:38.630 --> 16:53.190]  Not only did our bottle get found a full 13, 14 months later, but it was found by somebody who I thought it was perfect, somebody who's actually cleaning up the shoreline, but also somebody who is trying to restore our phone booths.
[16:53.250 --> 16:55.030]  Could it be any more perfect than that?
[16:55.030 --> 16:56.430]  That is so perfect.
[16:56.630 --> 17:03.290]  I mean, the odds that somebody who's also a telecom nerd, as I think us in this room can qualify as, found it.
[17:03.370 --> 17:03.850]  That's amazing.
[17:04.030 --> 17:11.570]  And it's also really fitting that you throwing garbage in the ocean has led to donating a large sum to the Ocean Cleanup Fund.
[17:11.570 --> 17:15.570]  Let me just point out, I did feel very guilty about throwing the bottle into the ocean.
[17:15.750 --> 17:18.250]  It literally is the only thing I've knowingly thrown into the ocean.
[17:19.250 --> 17:23.770]  Science and curiosity got the better of me, but I have been agonizing over it ever since.
[17:23.910 --> 17:38.710]  I'd like to feel that now I'm paying my penance and compensating this guy and the campaign to clean up the oceans a little sooner than I thought, but I'll cover it somehow, and my trash is no longer in the ocean.
[17:38.710 --> 17:40.570]  Also, did he say he was sending it back?
[17:40.870 --> 17:41.870]  He's sending it back.
[17:42.010 --> 17:43.710]  So now you have the chance to throw it away properly.
[17:43.730 --> 17:45.210]  Well, he's not dropping it in the ocean, though.
[17:45.310 --> 17:53.230]  I think he's mailing it, and I just hope it survives that journey because it's going to be a lot rougher than the high seas of the North Atlantic.
[17:53.910 --> 17:55.210]  But, boy, what a surprise.
[17:55.610 --> 17:57.190]  He just found it this Sunday.
[17:57.450 --> 18:09.050]  And the guy is incredibly interesting as well, having lived in America, Ireland, England, been a farmer, evaded being drafted somehow when he's not a U.S.
[18:09.170 --> 18:18.290]  citizen, I guess, when he was in America into the Vietnam War, going to New Zealand, ending up in Scotland and Shetland Islands and finding this bottle while he's restoring a payphone.
[18:18.630 --> 18:22.530]  I mean, this whole thing is, frankly, incredulous.
[18:22.730 --> 18:23.070]  It is.
[18:23.190 --> 18:23.390]  It is.
[18:23.510 --> 18:24.650]  And now I want to go...
[18:24.650 --> 18:25.830]  How can we be sure this isn't made up?
[18:25.830 --> 18:26.690]  I want to go to Shetland.
[18:26.830 --> 18:30.290]  Well, we'll know when the bottle comes back, but it's real.
[18:30.450 --> 18:30.870]  It's real.
[18:31.030 --> 18:31.730]  You'll see the pictures.
[18:31.730 --> 18:33.250]  So will you try it again?
[18:33.550 --> 18:34.350]  No, I've done it.
[18:34.590 --> 18:35.890]  I wanted to see if it would work.
[18:36.510 --> 18:38.310]  And now I know I'll try something else.
[18:38.450 --> 18:39.710]  I'll drop something in space, maybe.
[18:39.890 --> 18:45.290]  But, you know, some people throw a lot of bottles into the water.
[18:45.410 --> 18:45.930]  That's not right.
[18:45.930 --> 18:46.870]  I just did one.
[18:46.870 --> 18:48.070]  And I don't intend to do it again.
[18:48.070 --> 18:49.170]  It was just curiosity.
[18:49.190 --> 18:51.430]  I'm sorry for littering once.
[18:51.710 --> 18:53.470]  And I'm going to pay for it.
[18:54.150 --> 18:55.330]  Let's be honest.
[18:55.530 --> 19:00.870]  I mean, it's not like you were just finishing a drink and threw a bottle into the water.
[19:00.870 --> 19:06.850]  I would also qualify it and maybe consider changing some of the terminology.
[19:07.090 --> 19:14.950]  I mean, perhaps you lowered a buoy into the sea that was a scientific time capsule.
[19:15.150 --> 19:16.890]  No, I threw a bottle in the ocean, Kyle.
[19:17.030 --> 19:17.570]  That's what I did.
[19:17.690 --> 19:18.310]  I tried.
[19:18.430 --> 19:18.870]  I tried.
[19:18.870 --> 19:19.570]  I just...
[19:19.570 --> 19:20.610]  But it was a glass bottle, at least.
[19:20.730 --> 19:21.310]  It wasn't a plastic.
[19:21.450 --> 19:30.270]  And it wasn't what the real problem of the ocean is where massive amounts of trash are dumped in with no message and no reward, just garbage.
[19:30.490 --> 19:32.290]  And that's something that we have to address.
[19:32.570 --> 19:33.830]  And now we get to address it.
[19:33.950 --> 19:38.070]  I will confess that I was really skeptical at the time.
[19:38.070 --> 19:42.530]  Well, we had to sneak around the boat in the middle of the night because we didn't want to get caught by the boat people.
[19:42.650 --> 19:42.670]  It's so true.
[19:42.670 --> 19:45.250]  I'm probably banned from the boat forever now because I did this.
[19:45.350 --> 19:46.190]  Yeah, it is true.
[19:46.190 --> 19:49.450]  And I would definitely encourage others not to do anything like this.
[19:49.550 --> 19:49.870]  Don't...
[19:49.870 --> 19:50.630]  That's what hacking is.
[19:50.710 --> 19:57.410]  Sometimes breaking the rules and sometimes doing something that's not completely socially responsible, but learning from it and hopefully benefiting from it.
[19:57.410 --> 20:02.650]  I mean, the other very weird thing about this is that this is the second time that he found a message in a bottle.
[20:02.810 --> 20:03.010]  Uh-huh.
[20:03.450 --> 20:07.970]  Is part of the full interview a description of the contents that were in the first bottle that he found?
[20:07.990 --> 20:14.030]  Well, it goes into a little more detail, but it basically was somebody who was a lot closer and never got back to him when he wrote back.
[20:14.110 --> 20:16.270]  Now, I have a question for you specifically.
[20:16.550 --> 20:16.670]  Mm-hmm.
[20:17.490 --> 20:30.250]  If our friend in the Shetland Islands over there takes this bottle, puts the message back into it, and he himself hurls it out into the ocean, it's found by another person who subsequently contacts you, maybe from, you know, the shores of Nigeria.
[20:30.430 --> 20:32.470]  That's why he's sending it back, so that doesn't happen.
[20:32.630 --> 20:32.950]  Uh-huh.
[20:33.090 --> 20:33.250]  Yeah.
[20:33.250 --> 20:34.030]  But what if he does?
[20:34.830 --> 20:36.750]  Would you pay out a second time?
[20:37.270 --> 20:39.310]  Yeah, if he makes a bunch of Xerox copies...
[20:39.310 --> 20:40.330]  Where do you come up with these questions?
[20:40.410 --> 20:42.070]  No, I'm only doing this once.
[20:42.070 --> 20:42.210]  You're putting an offer out into the water?
[20:42.250 --> 20:44.190]  I only threw it in the ocean once.
[20:44.470 --> 20:50.310]  You know, the person accepts that offer if they make good on the conditions that you had put forth in that bottle.
[20:50.430 --> 20:50.690]  Uh-huh.
[20:51.730 --> 20:52.530]  Let's do it, you know.
[20:52.650 --> 20:52.770]  Yeah.
[20:52.770 --> 20:58.890]  And now that we know what it says in the contents of that bottle, people are going to be throwing these out all over there.
[20:59.010 --> 21:01.270]  You've just caused massive amounts of pollution.
[21:01.370 --> 21:02.630]  I love talking to lawyers.
[21:02.830 --> 21:05.730]  It's so much fun, but we have to move on.
[21:06.090 --> 21:14.670]  Um, we just got back, Kyle and I just got back from the far north, uh, where we had all kinds of other experiences with technology and observations too.
[21:15.230 --> 21:16.270]  Oh, absolutely.
[21:16.750 --> 21:24.210]  Um, the payphone theme, I think, was, um, a strong undercurrent of our travels up north as well.
[21:24.590 --> 21:35.770]  Um, we learned quite a bit about, um, the different telephone, uh, companies that operate them, um, namely, uh, Telus and Bell, of course, which are, uh, large companies up there.
[21:35.990 --> 21:37.750]  And then, uh, there's several others.
[21:37.970 --> 21:40.890]  Um, we had all kinds of, uh, observations.
[21:40.890 --> 21:49.930]  I think at one point, one of the cell carriers took control of, uh, one of our signals and we were unable to use our service at all.
[21:50.050 --> 21:50.470]  Oh my God.
[21:50.870 --> 21:51.270]  Videotron.
[21:51.650 --> 21:52.830]  Worst phone company in the world.
[21:52.950 --> 22:00.430]  What happens is I have T-Mobile when I arrive in Canada, somehow my phone signs onto Videotron, which doesn't work at all.
[22:00.570 --> 22:05.110]  So I get nothing and I have to figure out how to manually disconnect from it and connect to a different phone company.
[22:05.150 --> 22:05.270]  Yeah.
[22:05.310 --> 22:06.210]  It's like non-service.
[22:06.470 --> 22:15.010]  And so you're wondering why am I not able to maybe load a map to get directions or whatever kind of normal things you would use your mobile phone for up, up on a, an international trip.
[22:15.130 --> 22:20.050]  But suffice to say, um, uh, we, we noticed those, uh, telephone booths a lot.
[22:20.190 --> 22:26.690]  Um, in, in, especially in remote places and marveled at, uh, the importance of having backups and things like that.
[22:26.770 --> 22:41.570]  Um, especially in places that might be really far field and in a country that is much less populous than the U S one thing you notice in Montreal, for instance, in every Metro stop, there are pay phones, working pay phones, you pick them up, you get, you get dial tones.
[22:41.750 --> 22:46.270]  And the same thing is true in the streets of virtually every community, even the small towns.
[22:46.530 --> 22:49.670]  There is at least one phone booth someplace that is working.
[22:49.850 --> 22:55.290]  That's all we're saying on this show that it's good to hold onto the old technology as well as the new technology, because guess what?
[22:55.290 --> 22:59.250]  Lots of times a new technology doesn't work and you need a backup.
[22:59.490 --> 23:02.270]  And I'm saying, uh, you're, you're, um, absolutely right.
[23:02.410 --> 23:14.230]  I'm, um, also, um, gonna include working power, uh, and, uh, lighting and signage and the ability to, um, to see it from, from far away or, uh, you know, on the side of the road.
[23:14.370 --> 23:18.370]  There are, there are institutions in and of themselves, institutions for communication.
[23:18.370 --> 23:26.090]  And, um, that's great to have that sense of a connection and a link to the, the, the, uh, public network.
[23:26.390 --> 23:30.330]  And, um, especially if something breaks down or you, you need it in a, in a pinch.
[23:30.470 --> 23:40.430]  So we took the, um, the train that is owned by first nations, uh, from a set seal to a Shefferville, uh, going through Labrador and into Northern Quebec.
[23:41.090 --> 23:43.190]  And, uh, it was a fascinating journey.
[23:43.490 --> 23:54.570]  We, we talked to all kinds of people along the way, met a whole bunch of people and spent a very little amount of time in Shefferville cause we had to go back the next morning, but we, we had some interesting conversations that, that focused on technology.
[23:55.070 --> 23:55.510]  Absolutely.
[23:55.790 --> 23:55.970]  Yeah.
[23:56.090 --> 24:07.150]  The trains, um, themselves were very, very well maintained the line itself cause it's such a critical link and they do do a lot of freight and other, uh, cargo, uh, aside from the passenger trains.
[24:07.330 --> 24:17.010]  And so we noticed, um, the, um, the campsites in between and, and, and we're very curious how, how do people notify when the train needs to pick you up from a camp?
[24:17.010 --> 24:22.070]  So I, I, I heard a little bits and pieces about how the radio systems work and, and so on.
[24:22.170 --> 24:30.570]  Uh, and communication in general, uh, seems to be growing quite a bit as, um, we were expecting absolutely no service.
[24:30.870 --> 24:46.690]  And, um, and we were pretty sure that that was, that was going to be, uh, the, the rule, um, given how hard it was to make arrangements for simple things like getting the tickets in the first place or, uh, booking, uh, booking accommodations once you're up there because,
[24:47.010 --> 24:48.890]  um, people are busy doing other things.
[24:49.030 --> 24:52.010]  They're not really, uh, used to having a lot of visitors and so on.
[24:52.110 --> 24:56.510]  But while we were on the train, we had really interesting conversations, uh, met some people.
[24:56.910 --> 25:19.490]  Um, in fact, one woman that worked at the local school and she told us about, um, how a lot of the, um, demand for newer technologies and services like cell phones has, um, has, um, basically, uh, contributed to the rollout of a fiber optic system that will serve,
[25:19.490 --> 25:26.270]  uh, communities even farther north, um, which, uh, actually was being tested the week we were there on the train.
[25:26.510 --> 25:44.030]  Um, so, um, and what that means is, um, because they're structuring it like a public utility, um, and, uh, it was, uh, partially paid for by, um, grants or, uh, public monies from the Canadian government and, um, through an organization called KRG, which is like,
[25:44.190 --> 25:53.970]  uh, uh, a representative sort of regional government for the bands and, um, tribal nations among the provinces, specifically with Newfoundland and Labrador.
[25:54.210 --> 26:02.510]  So that company also works with this, um, uh, rural communications company called Tanami, which is actually the provider.
[26:02.810 --> 26:12.390]  So what they're doing is, um, they're going to get this link and then they're going to be having, um, what we are getting similar to like files, uh, fiber optics to the home, which is really critical.
[26:12.390 --> 26:14.910]  And that would support other things like cell phone service.
[26:15.070 --> 26:29.930]  So if I understand correctly, this, this small community of Shefferville up in Northern Quebec, which is not connected to the rest of, uh, of the world by road, only by train and by, by an airport, they are going to be getting fiber to the home for every single house up there.
[26:29.930 --> 26:30.530]  Yeah.
[26:30.730 --> 26:30.910]  Yeah.
[26:31.070 --> 26:45.970]  And it will likely be, um, affordable, uh, as it is, uh, like I was describing public utility model, some, some form of that, which is not quite as prevalent in the U S given our, um, obsession with free markets and so on.
[26:46.090 --> 26:49.770]  But they, um, essentially are recognizing the demand.
[26:49.950 --> 26:52.830]  They've funded it and they're actually much further along.
[26:52.830 --> 27:01.950]  They're going to have a third phase where a submarine cable will connect them to, um, uh, Greenland and Nook and other parts of the world.
[27:02.090 --> 27:15.350]  But it, it's a, especially important in this particular area from what I understand of the project, because as I said, it will go even further, uh, a field and, and connect, um, much more remote, uh, rural areas.
[27:15.350 --> 27:18.090]  So, uh, it was just fascinating to hear that.
[27:18.230 --> 27:19.950]  And the timing was, uh, really amazing.
[27:20.170 --> 27:39.550]  And of course that will allow so much more, um, communication, uh, media, uh, websites, uh, you name it, video conferencing, uh, this, um, initiative by that regional governmental organization, um, really wants to promote, um, uh, some of, some of the benefits like,
[27:39.550 --> 27:43.950]  uh, um, telemedicine and, uh, especially education.
[27:44.430 --> 27:52.030]  Um, and, um, that was just from having a simple conversation just about our kind of interest with telephones and computers.
[27:52.530 --> 28:03.210]  This, um, uh, woman that was speaking with us from, uh, who was working with the school, obviously they're, they're interested in getting, uh, a better technology for the students there.
[28:03.210 --> 28:06.370]  And so it was, it was just really a fascinating, uh, conversation.
[28:06.590 --> 28:12.690]  And, um, I, I went and looked at, um, the project itself and it's, it's really, um, something admirable, I'd say.
[28:12.990 --> 28:26.430]  Well, I noticed from talking to people on the train and in the community a bit that everybody is, um, is interested in technology, especially the kids, the kids all have their, their, uh, PlayStations and they, they are up on the latest games and everything like that.
[28:26.510 --> 28:31.010]  But people also had smartphones, which is interesting because they don't have any cell phone service in Shefferville.
[28:31.010 --> 28:31.510]  Yeah.
[28:31.590 --> 28:35.070]  They use wifi to, to, uh, to communicate for the most part.
[28:35.310 --> 28:35.430]  Yeah.
[28:35.490 --> 28:39.070]  We, we didn't really know a lot, um, about the sort of legacy communications.
[28:39.310 --> 28:56.450]  If there is phone service there, it's probably, um, based on satellite or some other kind of microwave links if, if at all, but it is not going to be able to handle as much traffic and certainly would not be as affordable, um, as getting, uh, a higher bandwidth solution like,
[28:56.450 --> 28:58.070]  um, this optical system.
[28:58.350 --> 29:02.090]  So, uh, it, it certainly is going to be a step up.
[29:02.190 --> 29:18.750]  And what we were imagining is if there is any kind of broadband there that perhaps people would get cell phones for the sort of big city, which is much further south for when they go in on trips or, um, in other words, have a cell phone that's, um, in a more populous area.
[29:18.750 --> 29:30.970]  And then when they're, um, back in their smaller communities up north, they perhaps use wifi over whatever kind of, uh, satellite broadband or, or existing, um, connection is there.
[29:30.970 --> 29:33.850]  So they have some kind of, uh, uh, link to the outside.
[29:34.030 --> 29:42.950]  It reminds me cause I had been to, uh, Iqaluit, which is in what's now known as Nunavut, wasn't known as that when I was there as part of Northwest territories, but that's even further north.
[29:43.130 --> 29:44.250]  That's even more cut off.
[29:44.390 --> 29:48.470]  And when I went there, they had just, um, uh, advanced to the point.
[29:48.470 --> 29:53.190]  Uh, where they had skipped over typewriters and gone directly to Macs.
[29:53.510 --> 30:06.870]  So they went from, from, uh, a written language, uh, to, um, um, over typewriters to, to using Macintoshes that had keyboard specifically designed with the symbolics that the, um, uh, Inuit language used.
[30:07.030 --> 30:09.650]  Uh, so that was really interesting to, uh, to see here.
[30:09.790 --> 30:10.690]  It's a, it's a different language.
[30:10.690 --> 30:19.970]  Uh, it's an Inu language and, uh, uh, it's a different culture, but it's still fascinating and people are still just as, uh, interested in, in technology and advancements.
[30:20.110 --> 30:30.130]  And what I think, um, for, uh, the interest of like BAI and, uh, radio that, that, um, sort of community perspective, uh, we looked into the station there.
[30:30.230 --> 30:31.190]  There's one station there.
[30:31.370 --> 30:39.870]  And of course their network stream, if you're in another part of the globe, it's, it's not really, um, how shall I say as reliable?
[30:39.870 --> 30:43.150]  I wasn't able to connect, um, while I was checking it out.
[30:43.390 --> 30:59.690]  So I imagine stuff like that, you know, content like, um, radio shows and music that's, that's aired locally over FM, um, would have much further reach, um, given, uh, you, you, uh, increase the, the ability to, um, have IP traffic and so on.
[30:59.810 --> 31:01.030]  So it's kind of exciting.
[31:01.210 --> 31:15.030]  And, and I hope to hear more from the area and, um, you know, air travel and trains are, are modes of, of, uh, uh, of communicating and, and transporting people and, and stories and information.
[31:15.250 --> 31:20.930]  But this, um, this internet technology in improving will, will I, I believe only add to that.
[31:21.050 --> 31:29.890]  And when you go to a place like that in the middle of the winter, you're noticed, everybody, everybody knows that you're somebody from the outside and they ask you all kinds of questions.
[31:29.890 --> 31:32.070]  So it was really fascinating to go there.
[31:32.230 --> 31:35.630]  Uh, not at all uncomfortable, just, uh, very, very different.
[31:35.830 --> 31:40.050]  It's a 13 hour train ride from Sepp Seal up to, um, uh, Shefferville.
[31:40.210 --> 31:44.750]  And of course to get to Sepp Seal, it's a, it's, um, at least an eight hour drive from Quebec city.
[31:44.930 --> 31:47.010]  It took us nine and a half hours because it was snowing.
[31:47.590 --> 31:52.670]  So, you know, it's, it's not for the faint of heart for sure, but it certainly does pay off.
[31:52.850 --> 31:56.450]  One thing I was able to do though, uh, when I was up there, I was able to run an experiment.
[31:56.710 --> 32:05.610]  Uh, I'm not, I didn't drop a bottle anywhere, but, um, basically I've always been curious about SMS, uh, and whether or not it works without a cell phone signal.
[32:05.750 --> 32:09.750]  And of course I get into all these debates with people that claim to know what they're talking about.
[32:09.910 --> 32:11.930]  And I'm always, you know, saying, well, are you sure?
[32:12.190 --> 32:13.990]  Is it, are you 100% certain?
[32:14.610 --> 32:21.250]  Uh, and, um, what I, what I have come up against is that yes, SMS works over wifi.
[32:21.910 --> 32:27.250]  Um, but, um, uh, sometimes it's shut off by, by phone companies or by services.
[32:27.250 --> 32:31.330]  Well, I was able to prove because I use signal, uh, to, to send messages.
[32:31.470 --> 32:35.730]  I was able to prove that I was able to send a signal message, signal, the signal, no problem at all.
[32:35.850 --> 32:40.190]  However, when I sent signal to SMS, didn't go through at all.
[32:40.430 --> 32:53.230]  Now the difference is if I'm in an area here where I don't get cell service, it'll, it'll basically hang for a while, but eventually it'll go through not because it's using wifi because it eventually sees a distant signal someplace.
[32:53.230 --> 32:55.870]  But here you're hundreds of miles away from a signal.
[32:55.870 --> 32:57.430]  So it's not going to do that.
[32:57.610 --> 32:59.370]  So I was able to prove without any doubt.
[32:59.590 --> 33:00.590]  No, doesn't work.
[33:00.710 --> 33:01.510]  Doesn't work over wifi.
[33:01.750 --> 33:03.810]  SMS does not work over wifi, even with signal.
[33:04.110 --> 33:17.070]  And when I finally was able to, um, reveal those results to the very same people that were telling me it did work, uh, the answer, uh, without fail was, of course it doesn't work because it's, it's, it's not a, it's not a phone company service that you're using.
[33:18.010 --> 33:21.550]  It's basically people want to be right no matter what.
[33:21.550 --> 33:25.370]  And, um, sometimes we don't know the answer and it's not bad to admit.
[33:25.530 --> 33:26.230]  You don't know the answer.
[33:26.850 --> 33:30.950]  Uh, but now at least I know that at least in that situation, it doesn't work.
[33:31.250 --> 33:42.710]  And, um, I, I defy anyone to show me otherwise, maybe there's a way to make it work over wifi, but, um, certainly it doesn't work with what I have right now, which is signal and regular SMS over, over in telephones.
[33:42.710 --> 33:43.950]  But you learn to adapt.
[33:44.190 --> 33:48.790]  And I think, um, when you don't have these kinds of things, you end up communicating in other ways.
[33:48.790 --> 34:01.770]  And especially on a long train adventure like that, you become fast friends with, uh, with most all the passengers and, and crew and, and, uh, share stories and, and learn about, um, the environment around you.
[34:01.910 --> 34:15.150]  And, um, it was just a, a really well-run, um, machine and, uh, you know, highly customized for the environment with, um, you know, extra power and, and, um, uh, generators and so on.
[34:15.250 --> 34:23.350]  And, and just, uh, you, you just got the sense that this was a vital, a vital connection of, uh, people and, and, um, freight, of course.
[34:23.570 --> 34:24.070]  Oh, it is vital.
[34:24.330 --> 34:29.130]  Without that train, uh, there's, there's no, um, supplies don't come into the, the community.
[34:29.350 --> 34:30.710]  Surely not as easily.
[34:31.030 --> 34:31.810]  Uh, absolutely.
[34:32.110 --> 34:32.210]  Yeah.
[34:32.350 --> 34:33.750]  It's, it's critical to have that stuff.
[34:33.890 --> 34:36.270]  You guys have any, any questions on our experiences?
[34:36.790 --> 34:45.730]  I mean, aside from the regular radio, the FM radio that, that people would listen to, uh, what about shortwave, things like that?
[34:46.110 --> 34:47.970]  You think we brought a shortwave radio up there?
[34:49.150 --> 34:49.590]  Absolutely.
[34:49.590 --> 34:51.110]  I don't, well, we didn't.
[34:51.210 --> 34:54.450]  And I don't think, I don't think people were really using shortwave.
[34:54.730 --> 34:55.250]  I don't know.
[34:55.390 --> 34:57.070]  I didn't see any indication of that.
[34:57.270 --> 34:57.470]  Sure.
[34:57.590 --> 34:58.670]  No, it's a great question.
[34:58.850 --> 35:04.350]  We really didn't have a lot of time to, to scan around, given how short our trip was.
[35:04.790 --> 35:10.110]  And, um, but it, it was really just the FM station that we were aware of.
[35:10.450 --> 35:18.690]  Um, and then of course, kind of like, um, business radios, I was inquiring about, um, for people, uh, along the way in the train.
[35:18.890 --> 35:25.710]  Um, and I'm sure there's other frequencies and stuff like that, but as far as broadcast, I mean, you could probably get, uh, distant shortwave stations.
[35:25.710 --> 35:33.410]  Uh, and, uh, but, but other than the, the FM there, I am not aware of anything in particular that was originating from, uh, Shefferville.
[35:33.530 --> 35:40.530]  What, what they do have, and they have this throughout Canada, is, um, a television network, uh, for indigenous communities.
[35:40.850 --> 35:42.930]  A couple of channels, in fact, called APTN.
[35:43.090 --> 35:47.690]  Aboriginal, Aboriginal Television People's, Aboriginal People's Television Network, APTN.
[35:48.290 --> 35:50.690]  Uh, and, uh, there's different feeds of that.
[35:51.030 --> 35:55.090]  Every single cable system, every single satellite system is mandated to carry this.
[35:55.090 --> 35:56.890]  And the programming is amazing.
[35:57.050 --> 36:01.470]  You learn so much about First Nations, and about, uh, different cultures, and different languages, and things like that.
[36:01.970 --> 36:07.690]  Not only that, but you have a network called AMI, uh, which is geared towards handicapped people.
[36:08.310 --> 36:14.110]  Programs, uh, with described video, so that you can know what's going on, even if you can't see the screen.
[36:14.650 --> 36:19.730]  Uh, programs that feature handicapped people, and how they live their lives, and how they, they prosper.
[36:20.290 --> 36:21.470]  We don't have things like that.
[36:21.590 --> 36:23.070]  I wonder why we don't have things like that.
[36:23.070 --> 36:27.510]  Yeah, something else they have on every single cable system, and every single satellite system, are radio stations.
[36:27.810 --> 36:37.510]  Yeah, if we were in Canada, WBAI would be on every single cable system, with a description of what we were, uh, what our frequency was, how long we've been on the air.
[36:37.950 --> 36:39.650]  That is how they do things up there.
[36:40.590 --> 36:51.090]  It's, it's interesting what happens when a, uh, when the media networks are created by people whose, uh, job is to support the community, rather than, uh, just commercial enterprises whose job it is to support themselves.
[36:51.670 --> 36:57.050]  One thing I do want to add is some of those campsites along the way would, would have these very satellite dishes.
[36:57.370 --> 37:11.890]  So, uh, people that are out, uh, hunting or roughing it in this, uh, terrain, they, they do have a, a little bit of, uh, you know, relaxing, uh, I guess, some, or, or, uh, informative media coming in via, uh, satellite.
[37:11.890 --> 37:21.430]  And with, uh, these kinds of channels and excellent programming, which we would love to see more of, um, in, in the South, in, in the North America proper.
[37:21.850 --> 37:24.010]  Uh, Voltaire, I think you had, you have a question for us.
[37:24.070 --> 37:24.990]  Just come up to the microphone there.
[37:25.430 --> 37:25.570]  Go ahead.
[37:25.630 --> 37:25.790]  Yeah.
[37:26.130 --> 37:30.330]  So, uh, New Yorkers and people go between New York and Montreal and North.
[37:30.490 --> 37:31.690]  There's only one train a day.
[37:31.910 --> 37:32.150]  Yes.
[37:32.250 --> 37:33.690]  It takes about 14 hours.
[37:34.450 --> 37:40.830]  Um, how, if we wanted to go from here to, um, uh, Trevorville, how would we get there?
[37:41.270 --> 37:46.630]  Uh, well, that's how often does the train go from, um, Montreal to, uh, Sheffield?
[37:46.770 --> 37:48.290]  Well, there is no train from Montreal to Sheffield.
[37:48.350 --> 37:49.490]  I'll tell you exactly what we did.
[37:49.630 --> 37:52.710]  Uh, first of all, the train from New York to Montreal, I think it's less than 14 hours.
[37:52.850 --> 37:54.950]  I think it's only about, uh, eight hours, nine hours.
[37:55.110 --> 37:57.510]  You have to go through a border crossing, so that takes some time.
[37:57.850 --> 38:04.010]  Uh, it's a, it's a cheap train, you know, for, for the price of two round trips to Long Island on, on the LIRR.
[38:04.430 --> 38:06.410]  That's how much it costs to go to, to a foreign country.
[38:06.530 --> 38:08.570]  And it's, it's a really foreign country.
[38:08.570 --> 38:09.770]  They speak a different language.
[38:09.950 --> 38:10.950]  They have a different culture.
[38:11.150 --> 38:11.710]  It's amazing.
[38:12.290 --> 38:17.890]  Uh, so you go there, uh, you're in Montreal and, uh, your next, your next stop should be Quebec.
[38:18.190 --> 38:21.110]  And for there, you take a train that takes about three hours.
[38:21.710 --> 38:25.410]  Uh, and, um, then you're in a really amazing, it's like going to Europe.
[38:25.410 --> 38:26.130]  It really is.
[38:26.210 --> 38:27.310]  It's a, it's an incredible city.
[38:27.470 --> 38:28.610]  You could spend forever there.
[38:28.610 --> 38:34.450]  Uh, from Quebec City to get to the southern part of that train line that we took, Cepcile.
[38:35.070 --> 38:39.310]  Uh, you basically have to take an eight hour car ride, at least eight hours.
[38:39.530 --> 38:41.030]  And you have to cross the fjord.
[38:41.330 --> 38:42.110]  Yeah, it's true.
[38:42.270 --> 38:46.630]  There's a free ferry on the road that will take you because it's too deep to build a bridge, apparently.
[38:46.630 --> 38:48.870]  So you have to take a free ferry to get to the other side.
[38:48.870 --> 38:55.450]  And then once you get to, once you get to Cepcile, which is spelled S-E-P-T dash I-L-E-S, I believe.
[38:55.970 --> 39:04.030]  Uh, you then take the, um, uh, once every, every, uh, twice a week, actually, train that goes from Cepcile up to Shefferville.
[39:04.150 --> 39:07.570]  That's a 13 hour train ride, and it comes down the next day.
[39:07.730 --> 39:09.230]  And that's why we could only spend one night.
[39:09.430 --> 39:12.610]  Otherwise, we would have had to spend four days there, and we just couldn't, couldn't do that.
[39:13.050 --> 39:16.350]  And how, how does the, uh, Ford, uh, train go?
[39:16.970 --> 39:17.590]  Which train?
[39:17.590 --> 39:18.650]  The Ford crossing.
[39:18.990 --> 39:20.270]  Oh, it's, it's continuous.
[39:20.550 --> 39:23.710]  They have two ferries that are just continually going back and forth.
[39:23.910 --> 39:25.830]  I mean, they may close down in the evenings, but...
[39:25.830 --> 39:28.330]  Yeah, because you're on a road, and you have to be able to cross, so...
[39:28.330 --> 39:28.450]  Okay.
[39:28.450 --> 39:30.510]  But it's too deep to, to build, I think, a structure.
[39:30.770 --> 39:34.270]  And it's very, uh, how do you say, I guess, tumultuous.
[39:34.430 --> 39:39.250]  It's, uh, there's a lot of movement with the water, so I don't think it's, it's a very rough, uh, crossing.
[39:39.410 --> 39:43.810]  Well, I'm just blown away that everybody there is getting Fias to the home, and it's just a given.
[39:43.990 --> 39:45.990]  They're not getting Fias, they're getting Tanami.
[39:46.490 --> 39:47.230]  Okay, fine.
[39:47.370 --> 39:49.030]  Whatever you want to call it up there, but it's the equivalent.
[39:50.150 --> 39:52.430]  And how many of these trains did you hurl bottles from?
[39:52.770 --> 39:57.030]  Okay, there was no more hurling bottles, didn't litter at all, so let's just move past that.
[39:58.010 --> 39:59.610]  Um, any other, any other questions?
[39:59.830 --> 39:59.850]  It wasn't lit.
[39:59.850 --> 40:01.050]  Because we have to move on to other things.
[40:01.230 --> 40:01.390]  Yeah.
[40:01.430 --> 40:02.830]  We also have to give the phone number out again.
[40:03.070 --> 40:04.070]  Who wants to give the phone number out?
[40:04.550 --> 40:10.250]  Well, if anyone has any questions or is curious about the trip, please write in, OTH at 2600.com.
[40:10.250 --> 40:13.390]  But most importantly, pledge to keep this radio station on the air.
[40:13.450 --> 40:16.730]  So we can tell stories like this, so we can experiment and share our findings.
[40:17.290 --> 40:22.130]  The phone number to pledge is 516-620-3602.
[40:22.130 --> 40:25.910]  Please become a WBAI buddy and support our program, support the station.
[40:26.190 --> 40:28.650]  Yes, you can become a BAI buddy by calling that number.
[40:28.770 --> 40:33.590]  You can also become a BAI buddy by going to give to wbai.org.
[40:33.850 --> 40:37.290]  And I believe you can also send a text message and become a BAI buddy.
[40:37.410 --> 40:38.070]  Is that correct?
[40:38.670 --> 40:43.050]  Um, it's unclear to me whether you can become a buddy via the SMS system.
[40:43.090 --> 40:49.430]  But if you'd like to make a one-time pledge, feel free to text WBAI to the code 41444.
[40:50.770 --> 40:51.210]  41444.
[40:51.390 --> 40:51.810]  41444.
[40:52.130 --> 40:52.650]  That's a good number.
[40:52.810 --> 40:53.370]  That's a good number.
[40:53.590 --> 40:58.650]  And, uh, there are many ways you can support us and, and, and keep these independent voices going.
[40:59.030 --> 41:01.050]  Uh, but we have more to talk about tonight.
[41:01.250 --> 41:02.110]  So much going on.
[41:02.150 --> 41:08.090]  Um, talking about technology, talking about how things don't quite work out well.
[41:08.930 --> 41:09.370]  Iowa.
[41:09.830 --> 41:10.210]  Yeah.
[41:10.410 --> 41:13.050]  Iowa had their caucus, their long awaited caucus.
[41:13.230 --> 41:15.490]  We've been waiting for this for 10 years and it finally happened.
[41:16.110 --> 41:17.590]  And then it didn't happen.
[41:18.310 --> 41:21.970]  Yeah, because apparently, and this is something that I didn't know about.
[41:22.130 --> 41:29.710]  Apparently, uh, they went out and got an app to count the, uh, the votes that were coming in.
[41:29.990 --> 41:35.630]  And apparently this app is, um, uh, something that only the democratic party got.
[41:35.630 --> 41:39.090]  They don't use the same app in different places to count.
[41:39.710 --> 41:44.850]  And this, this, uh, company to make it even more nefarious sounding is called shadow.
[41:45.590 --> 41:49.710]  Uh, and they're, they're geared towards progressive issues, which is great.
[41:49.710 --> 41:51.670]  But for God's sake, we're talking about counting.
[41:51.990 --> 41:58.270]  And I just saw numbers that, um, uh, uh, Bernie Sanders, uh, won the popular vote.
[41:58.350 --> 42:00.810]  So unfortunately that means he lost because we're in America.
[42:01.970 --> 42:02.290]  Yeah.
[42:02.930 --> 42:04.650]  Uh, Alex, you care to shed any light on this?
[42:04.750 --> 42:07.350]  Cause I'm really confused and, and kind of frustrated here.
[42:07.510 --> 42:10.250]  Uh, I, I can't really shed light on the Bernie issue.
[42:10.350 --> 42:11.690]  I don't think anybody can, you know.
[42:11.790 --> 42:12.530]  He got more votes.
[42:12.610 --> 42:13.410]  How does he not win?
[42:13.890 --> 42:16.190]  Well, I mean, you can say the same thing about Hillary.
[42:16.690 --> 42:17.310]  It, it, it.
[42:17.390 --> 42:18.850]  But that was, that was the main election.
[42:18.850 --> 42:21.270]  This is, this is just a caucus.
[42:21.550 --> 42:22.130]  I know, this is our caucus.
[42:22.410 --> 42:25.450]  You know, I was watching this, uh, on CNN the other night.
[42:25.650 --> 42:36.970]  And I, ultimately I had to turn it off because I'm just watching a bunch of people shift their spot in a gymnasium and I'm wondering how this is somehow predictive of where our democracy is going.
[42:37.150 --> 42:37.630]  Oh, C-SPAN.
[42:37.690 --> 42:38.710]  You were watching C-SPAN, weren't you?
[42:38.830 --> 42:39.850]  Uh, no, I was watching CNN.
[42:39.850 --> 42:41.190]  Oh, they were showing the gymnasium too?
[42:41.190 --> 42:42.610]  They were showing the gymnasium.
[42:42.610 --> 42:44.930]  Two different gymnasiums at the same time.
[42:45.150 --> 42:47.690]  The gymnasium ad nauseum, you know, so to speak.
[42:47.710 --> 42:48.690]  It, it was terrible.
[42:49.030 --> 43:01.150]  In any event, I don't really even understand the whole process, but what's even more mystifying to me is the, the back end of this shadow, uh, application with a shadow company and a shadow application.
[43:01.550 --> 43:10.230]  And there's been a lot of reporting and there's been a lot of conspiracy theories about this particular app and its machinations with respect to the Iowa caucuses.
[43:10.910 --> 43:21.390]  And I, I've sketched this out and maybe we can even try to tweet a photo of this ridiculous sketch that I made and trying to unriddle what the hell was actually going on with this particular app and the people behind it.
[43:21.490 --> 43:26.830]  Because there's all these different strands of reporting from, you know, a half a dozen different sources that have been trying to do this.
[43:26.830 --> 43:44.430]  So if we start with the shadow application itself, it was the shadow app, it turns out that that is an application and a company that is owned by another nonprofit company by the name of acronym.
[43:44.930 --> 43:47.470]  That's literally the name of the company is, is acronym.
[43:47.590 --> 43:48.290]  Acronym is okay.
[43:48.510 --> 43:48.870]  That's fine.
[43:48.870 --> 43:57.550]  But if you're gonna, if you're gonna be a trusted company running election counts, I don't know if shadow is the best name for you.
[43:57.950 --> 44:02.130]  Probably not the best way to inspire confidence in, you know, the populace.
[44:02.610 --> 44:10.050]  In any event, so this company acronym is owned and operated and started by a woman by the name of Tara McGowan.
[44:10.430 --> 44:16.070]  Tara McGowan, it turns out, used to work in the Obama administration as a digital producer.
[44:16.070 --> 44:19.210]  She did, you know, various things on social media, etc.
[44:19.490 --> 44:22.790]  That in and of itself isn't, you know, inherently nefarious.
[44:22.990 --> 44:31.490]  However, this nonprofit company acronym has for-profit subsidiaries and for-profit wings.
[44:31.770 --> 44:35.530]  One of those companies is known as Lockwood Strategy.
[44:35.850 --> 44:40.310]  And Lockwood Strategy is a political consulting for-profit firm.
[44:40.310 --> 44:51.370]  It's worked for candidates like Pete Buttigieg, Joe Biden, and I believe was also on the payroll of the Virginia Democratic Party.
[44:51.730 --> 45:10.910]  Now, secondarily, also part of the for-profit wing, I believe, it's not really clear, is that acronym also owns some media organizations, some left-leaning, self-described left-leaning, but yet supposedly independent, journalistic, local media content generation,
[45:11.630 --> 45:13.110]  websites, outlets, etc.
[45:13.470 --> 45:18.090]  What they do and what they produce is still completely unclear, I think, to everybody.
[45:19.150 --> 45:27.830]  Thirdly, this company, acronym, has its hand in software, the shadow application.
[45:27.830 --> 45:39.330]  And it has created software to not tabulate votes, as we suspect it is, but it's to calculate, essentially, the early results of a particular caucus.
[45:39.330 --> 46:10.930]  And the problem now arises is because this application, this company, Shadow, is now tabulating the early results of a rather important but yet bizarre Iowa caucus for the very Democratic candidates that are paying for its consulting on its for-profit wing and those very candidates on whose behalf it had been running positive campaign-related media content on these supposedly independent local
[46:10.930 --> 46:12.690]  media content generation sites.
[46:12.850 --> 46:24.830]  Now, to make things even more bizarre is that this Tara McGowan woman, as it turns out, of course, is married to a senior political strategist for Pete Buttigieg.
[46:25.410 --> 46:32.630]  So, what you can say here is that, you know, acronyms, tentacles, have reached the testicles.
[46:33.550 --> 46:34.110]  Wow.
[46:34.250 --> 46:34.430]  Okay.
[46:34.470 --> 46:36.570]  Well, you're going to have to deal with the fallout from that remark.
[46:36.870 --> 46:42.690]  I'm going to read the statement from the Shadow CEO, Gerard Nyamira.
[46:43.070 --> 46:55.030]  We sincerely regret the delay in the reporting of the results of last night's Iowa caucuses, obviously this came out yesterday, and the uncertainty it has caused to the candidates, their campaigns, and Democratic caucus goers.
[46:55.350 --> 47:10.590]  As the Iowa Democratic Party has confirmed, the underlying data and collection process via Shadow's mobile caucus app was sound and accurate, but our process to transmit that caucus results data generated via the app to the IDP was not.
[47:11.250 --> 47:11.890]  Huh.
[47:12.410 --> 47:16.170]  Importantly, this issue did not affect the underlying caucus results data.
[47:16.170 --> 47:22.870]  We worked as quickly as possible overnight to resolve this issue, and the IDP has worked diligently to verify results.
[47:23.350 --> 47:33.510]  Shadow is an independent, for-profit technology company that contracted with the Iowa Democratic Party to build a caucus reporting mobile app, which was optimal for local officials to use.
[47:33.510 --> 47:37.470]  The goal of the app was to ensure accuracy in a complex reporting process.
[47:37.930 --> 47:44.530]  We will apply the lessons learned in the future and have already corrected the underlying technology issue.
[47:45.170 --> 47:52.850]  We take these issues very seriously and are committed to improving and evolving to support the Democratic Party's goal of modernizing its election processes.
[47:53.490 --> 47:58.690]  Okay, you know, I've got some problems with this sorry-not-sorry statement they made.
[47:58.790 --> 48:01.350]  It seems like they're saying, yeah, the technology worked great.
[48:01.450 --> 48:03.970]  Well, if the technology worked great, how come we didn't see the damn numbers?
[48:04.710 --> 48:11.610]  Obviously, there's a big problem here with the way the technology is being used and the way we're being communicated with.
[48:11.810 --> 48:20.210]  You know, what Alex was describing, all these social media outlet platforms and getting messages out, that's fine.
[48:20.390 --> 48:21.270]  Do whatever.
[48:21.350 --> 48:21.830]  Go crazy.
[48:21.990 --> 48:23.910]  But we're talking about counting numbers here.
[48:23.910 --> 48:30.530]  To me, my old-fashioned way of thinking, I think that should be independent of the actual political people themselves.
[48:30.990 --> 48:37.870]  It should be the same people or same organizations or same technology used to count no matter what it is we're counting, no matter what party it is.
[48:38.070 --> 48:40.690]  And it shouldn't take three days to get that information.
[48:41.890 --> 48:45.610]  Part of my question about the whole thing relates to my past.
[48:45.610 --> 48:46.670]  I lived in the Midwest.
[48:46.670 --> 48:48.310]  I moved here from the Midwest.
[48:48.770 --> 48:50.410]  I've been a caucus goer.
[48:50.410 --> 49:00.130]  And the question that comes to my mind is something that we've discussed a lot, which is why the rush to technologize this very analog system.
[49:00.370 --> 49:02.870]  And they did it on a really short timeline.
[49:03.190 --> 49:11.650]  So the way it used to work was you'd go and there'd be people and they'd have paper and a pen and they'd write down the numbers and then they'd call them in.
[49:11.790 --> 49:15.830]  And someone would sit there and write down the numbers and sit with a calculator and come up with the answers.
[49:17.070 --> 49:28.190]  And when you said earlier about this remote community that went like straight to max and just suddenly jumped from like zero to 50 in terms of technology, that's part of why I'm asking.
[49:28.190 --> 49:29.230]  There was no net.
[49:29.350 --> 49:31.130]  There was no backup system in place.
[49:31.130 --> 49:36.890]  And why, if the technology wasn't tested, was it decided to be the best thing in the whole entire world?
[49:37.230 --> 49:46.670]  Also, because so many of the precinct chairs are charitably, I will say, not digital natives, if you're going to be able...
[49:46.670 --> 49:55.130]  If you're going to say this is the only way that it's going to work now and there is no backup, you can't roll that out in this short a period of time and expect anything to work well.
[49:55.790 --> 49:59.370]  Yeah, look, I think those are all, you know, really good points here.
[49:59.510 --> 50:06.270]  And especially because the whole point behind this app was to prevent people from having to do that basic math.
[50:06.430 --> 50:13.790]  And the problems arose, as Emmanuel read to us, when data was transferred over to the Iowa Democratic Party.
[50:13.790 --> 50:18.510]  For some reason, the Iowa Democratic Party, the IDP, had formatting issues.
[50:18.510 --> 50:25.390]  They couldn't read the data in whatever format it was pushed over to that platform, which is a really bizarre problem to have.
[50:25.430 --> 50:27.990]  You'd think that you would have tested that ahead of time.
[50:28.450 --> 50:35.290]  Other reporting from Vice indicates that this looked like, you know, some kind of student project, that the whole thing was thrown together really, really quickly.
[50:35.450 --> 50:36.850]  Alex, this was the test.
[50:37.030 --> 50:40.170]  This was the test because they couldn't have tested it any other way.
[50:40.170 --> 50:51.990]  Well, and that raises a completely separate but yet, I think, equally important issue, which is how the hell did this company, Shadow, with its political operative parents, get awarded this contract?
[50:51.990 --> 50:54.710]  It wasn't a huge high-value contract.
[50:54.730 --> 50:56.750]  It was something to the tune of $64,000.
[50:56.750 --> 51:04.170]  But this is a contract that was awarded to an organization that had zero history in doing any of this.
[51:04.310 --> 51:10.270]  There was probably zero vetting of this particular company, and they could not fulfill their contractual requirements.
[51:10.470 --> 51:19.350]  I mean, it looks and smells and probably is nepotism, contractual nepotism by political operatives helping their friends and families out.
[51:20.230 --> 51:35.470]  And in 2020, after the 2016 election in particular, we should know very well that the appearance of impropriety is the only thing that is needed to undermine the legitimacy of an election.
[51:35.470 --> 51:45.090]  And they are giving so much ammunition to the far right to undermine the legitimacy of anything relating to the Iowa Democratic Caucuses and anything further down the road.
[51:45.290 --> 51:46.170]  This is a disaster.
[51:46.170 --> 51:56.610]  Yeah, and it's a very old concept in information security and information technology that if you're testing something brand new that's not been done before, you also have a backup.
[51:56.770 --> 51:59.350]  You have a failsafe for if slash when it fails.
[51:59.910 --> 52:07.210]  And the powers that be had so much faith in this new app that the phone lines were understaffed.
[52:07.330 --> 52:15.530]  And so when people in these precincts were trying to just call in their results instead of using the app which wasn't working, those phone lines were on hold.
[52:15.530 --> 52:16.830]  They were ringing busy.
[52:16.990 --> 52:17.890]  They were dropping calls.
[52:18.070 --> 52:30.030]  There was a great clip going around last night of Wolf Blitzer from CNN calling someone at one of these polling places who was on hold with whoever they were trying to phone in the results to.
[52:30.890 --> 52:35.810]  And while Wolf was talking to this guy about it, that place picked up and then hung up on that person.
[52:36.510 --> 52:40.070]  You know, what you're saying here is what we say all the time.
[52:40.270 --> 52:40.950]  Have a backup.
[52:41.370 --> 52:42.450]  Technology is going to...
[52:42.450 --> 52:45.150]  It's almost like I'm convinced they're not listening to us.
[52:45.270 --> 52:48.070]  I don't think they're listening because this is so basic.
[52:48.290 --> 52:49.690]  It's such a basic premise.
[52:50.310 --> 52:51.930]  Assume technology is going to go wrong.
[52:51.930 --> 52:52.710]  Have a backup.
[52:53.130 --> 52:54.170]  I am...
[52:54.170 --> 52:55.510]  I'm just...
[52:55.510 --> 53:00.770]  I'm hearing kind of the sense that this was a real failure.
[53:00.910 --> 53:02.190]  There was not a lot of oversight.
[53:02.210 --> 53:03.090]  And I'm kind of...
[53:03.090 --> 53:06.210]  I don't want to be too, I guess, conspiratorial.
[53:06.210 --> 53:17.170]  But I do think that there was probably some arrangement that not enough people were actually asking questions about and critiquing and getting it right.
[53:17.330 --> 53:29.590]  And I think they should, as I said, have been more honest, at least internally, about rolling something out like this and say, like, look, if this is a test, let's have it as a test and use other primary means.
[53:29.590 --> 53:31.870]  And before I go, I just want to correct myself.
[53:32.110 --> 53:33.470]  I was saying Tanami earlier.
[53:33.670 --> 53:36.350]  The company I was talking about is Tom Ani.
[53:36.610 --> 53:36.890]  Okay.
[53:37.270 --> 53:38.490]  I said it backwards.
[53:38.690 --> 53:39.510]  I'm sorry to change the subject.
[53:39.610 --> 53:41.410]  That will stop a bunch of letters from coming to us.
[53:41.530 --> 53:41.830]  Thank you.
[53:41.950 --> 53:43.270]  I just want to head those off.
[53:43.370 --> 53:44.390]  I was misspeaking.
[53:44.650 --> 53:51.290]  So can I just go over quickly what the New York Times listed as everything that went wrong at the Iowa caucus?
[53:51.510 --> 53:53.930]  The app was new and relatively untested.
[53:53.930 --> 54:02.270]  The Iowa Democratic Party Commission, Shadow Inc., a for-profit technology company to build an app in less than two months to help report results from around the state.
[54:02.650 --> 54:04.990]  Volunteers were unfamiliar with the new system.
[54:05.830 --> 54:10.310]  Training on how to use the app was available before the caucuses, but not everyone took advantage of it.
[54:10.370 --> 54:11.970]  The app did not work for everyone.
[54:12.130 --> 54:17.370]  Some people faced errors when logging in and connectivity issues or difficulty using the app.
[54:17.910 --> 54:20.770]  Submitting results was more complicated than usual.
[54:20.770 --> 54:25.330]  First time in caucus history that chairs had to report alignment counts along with delegate totals.
[54:26.590 --> 54:29.530]  And the app data did not transmit properly.
[54:29.630 --> 54:35.750]  As results rolled in, officials reported a high error rate in the transmitted data and struggled to identify the source of the problem.
[54:36.150 --> 54:37.790]  Backup phone lines were jammed.
[54:38.410 --> 54:40.990]  Too few staffers were available to answer those phones.
[54:41.890 --> 54:44.170]  And what wound up happening?
[54:44.210 --> 54:46.210]  The party has to count votes by hand.
[54:46.370 --> 54:49.190]  All that said, though, I just want to make this one point.
[54:49.730 --> 55:00.410]  We are all upset at the fact that this small wonder bread state called Iowa is not telling us what candidates are viable for the rest of the country.
[55:00.610 --> 55:01.730]  Think about that for a second.
[55:02.070 --> 55:04.870]  Why do we care so much what Iowa thinks?
[55:05.110 --> 55:06.590]  Why do we always do this?
[55:06.750 --> 55:07.970]  Maybe this is a good thing.
[55:08.090 --> 55:16.090]  Maybe it's the right thing to do to not have Iowa tell the rest of the country how they should vote, what candidates need to leave, what candidates are ahead.
[55:16.090 --> 55:19.050]  And let's just move on to the next step.
[55:19.170 --> 55:22.650]  Let them figure out how to count and we'll all be happy at some point.
[55:22.770 --> 55:24.030]  Then who should be first?
[55:24.250 --> 55:26.290]  I'm not necessarily saying Iowa should.
[55:27.450 --> 55:31.490]  But would there be a different state that would be your preference?
[55:31.490 --> 55:39.610]  Well, because my other question is if this had happened in a bigger state and this really like if this had happened in a bigger state.
[55:39.790 --> 55:39.890]  Right.
[55:40.090 --> 55:43.530]  You know, it's taken two days, two and a half, three days to count in Iowa.
[55:44.110 --> 55:47.510]  If this had happened in a California, this could take weeks.
[55:47.510 --> 55:47.950]  Okay.
[55:48.150 --> 55:48.570]  It takes weeks.
[55:48.690 --> 55:50.590]  You know, the election is in November, for one thing.
[55:50.670 --> 55:50.750]  Fair.
[55:50.930 --> 55:53.090]  The convention is, what, July or August.
[55:53.530 --> 55:54.390]  Yeah, I don't care.
[55:54.450 --> 55:56.130]  Let's have it on the same day.
[55:56.350 --> 55:57.870]  You know, have a super-duper Tuesday.
[55:58.090 --> 55:58.730]  I don't care.
[55:58.830 --> 55:59.330]  I like that.
[55:59.450 --> 56:00.070]  Yeah, let's do that.
[56:00.170 --> 56:05.850]  Or we get a big bowl and we just, you know, like the lottery, pick states out and say you're first, you're second.
[56:06.670 --> 56:08.210]  It's, you know, that's how other countries do it.
[56:08.290 --> 56:12.650]  This really shouldn't be steeped in such tradition that we wind up crippling ourselves.
[56:13.090 --> 56:16.310]  So it's not a big deal that we don't know how Iowa thinks.
[56:16.410 --> 56:17.650]  How do the rest of us think?
[56:17.770 --> 56:21.150]  By the time it comes to New York, it's down to two or three candidates.
[56:21.430 --> 56:22.710]  We don't get to choose.
[56:22.910 --> 56:23.810]  How is that fair?
[56:24.070 --> 56:26.750]  How is it fair that somebody who's ahead is behind?
[56:27.910 --> 56:33.190]  And just all the things that we keep being faced with time after time because it's tradition.
[56:33.710 --> 56:35.130]  Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
[56:35.250 --> 56:35.430]  Alex?
[56:35.650 --> 56:41.730]  Yeah, I mean, one final point about this whole debacle was that, you know, the cover-up, as always, was worse than the crime in the wake of all this happening.
[56:41.730 --> 56:46.710]  Instead of coming clean, Acronym said that it was merely an investor in Shadow Inc.
[56:47.070 --> 56:53.890]  And yet their website and all the media messaging that they put out beforehand indicated that Shadow Inc.
[56:54.070 --> 56:55.550]  was an acquisition of Acronym.
[56:55.710 --> 57:04.370]  And so we have all these bizarre shadowy connections that just give off not just the appearance but the reek of impropriety.
[57:04.530 --> 57:05.930]  This is something we have to learn from.
[57:05.930 --> 57:06.830]  We can do better.
[57:07.630 --> 57:09.350]  And we could do worse.
[57:09.650 --> 57:10.850]  The numbers could have come out.
[57:10.950 --> 57:11.810]  The numbers could have been bad.
[57:11.950 --> 57:12.890]  The numbers could have been wrong.
[57:13.050 --> 57:15.530]  At least they stopped it before it got to that point.
[57:16.050 --> 57:28.510]  And we could have had a situation like we had with the other party where the single candidate running unopposed claimed victory with 97% and dictatorship-type lingo like that.
[57:28.510 --> 57:29.610]  At least we didn't have that.
[57:29.770 --> 57:30.330]  At least we didn't have that.
[57:30.330 --> 57:30.690]  All right.
[57:30.690 --> 57:32.250]  That's going to do it for us this week.
[57:32.450 --> 57:33.510]  Please call 516...
[57:34.990 --> 57:35.430]  620.
[57:36.090 --> 57:36.530]  620.
[57:37.050 --> 57:37.490]  620.
[57:37.750 --> 57:37.830]  3602.
[57:37.970 --> 57:38.910]  I don't know why I can't remember that.
[57:39.090 --> 57:42.650]  And give2wbai.org is our website.
[57:43.070 --> 57:44.730]  And 41444?
[57:45.090 --> 57:45.530]  41444.
[57:45.870 --> 57:47.570]  Send WBAI to that.
[57:47.670 --> 57:48.870]  Otherwise, you might donate to the wrong people.
[57:49.090 --> 57:52.190]  Also, check out your local 2600 meetings all over the world this Friday.
[57:53.230 --> 57:54.670]  2600.com slash meetings.
[57:55.290 --> 57:55.490]  All right.
[57:55.490 --> 57:56.230]  We'll see you next week.
[57:56.350 --> 57:56.690]  Write to us.
[57:56.850 --> 57:58.770]  OTH at 2600.com.
[57:58.890 --> 58:04.050]  Don't forget to check out the extended interview with our new friend in Shetland as well as some pictures.
[58:04.710 --> 58:06.510]  And we'll be back again next week.
[58:06.510 --> 58:06.830]  Good night.
[01:00:29.540 --> 01:00:37.000]  And you are listening to WBAI New York, 99.5 FM, WBAI.org, everywhere.