[00:02.340 --> 00:06.180]  Hi, this is DJ Baby K from The Sweet Spot.
[00:06.420 --> 00:11.220]  On the go, but want to support the station dedicated to you, the listener?
[00:11.480 --> 00:12.480]  No problem.
[00:12.760 --> 00:20.800]  Simply dial 41444 and text TRANSMIT995 to make a pledge by text.
[00:21.100 --> 00:26.700]  Support WBAI's unique voice and keep us on the air during this critical time.
[00:26.700 --> 00:34.700]  Once again, dial 41444 and text TRANSMIT995 to make your pledge.
[00:35.060 --> 00:42.700]  Thanks for supporting listener-sponsored Community Radio, WBAI 99.5 FM.
[00:59.550 --> 01:02.830]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[01:03.110 --> 01:05.070]  It's 7 o'clock time for Off the Hook.
[01:10.390 --> 01:14.850]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:15.830 --> 01:20.370]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[01:21.010 --> 01:25.730]  We couldn't get much worse, but they would.
[01:25.990 --> 01:28.630]  From Diddley Bom, for the best, it's paid for worst.
[01:29.230 --> 01:31.110]  I hope that's understood.
[01:31.310 --> 01:32.130]  From Diddley Bom!
[02:44.790 --> 02:46.550]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:46.690 --> 02:48.990]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:48.990 --> 02:54.290]  Emanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Alex.
[02:54.310 --> 02:55.070]  Good evening.
[02:55.410 --> 02:55.850]  Rob T.
[02:56.050 --> 02:56.550]  Firefly.
[02:56.750 --> 02:57.230]  Good evening.
[02:57.350 --> 02:57.590]  Gila.
[02:57.750 --> 02:58.010]  Hello.
[02:58.410 --> 02:59.150]  And Kyle.
[02:59.570 --> 02:59.890]  Howdy.
[03:00.350 --> 03:03.330]  Well, here we are, back after two weeks.
[03:03.330 --> 03:05.630]  And my understanding is we will not be here next week.
[03:05.630 --> 03:08.710]  This is our fundraising edition of the show.
[03:09.410 --> 03:12.670]  And the phone number to call is 212.
[03:12.950 --> 03:14.290]  Why did they put it in back of me?
[03:14.450 --> 03:14.630]  I can't.
[03:14.770 --> 03:15.230]  I never remember.
[03:15.230 --> 03:16.490]  We're on the 212-209.
[03:17.290 --> 03:19.670]  And then I figured... No, it's not even that.
[03:19.990 --> 03:20.330]  Well, that's the studio number.
[03:20.350 --> 03:21.130]  That's the studio number.
[03:21.210 --> 03:22.370]  See, I've got it wrong already.
[03:22.430 --> 03:23.310]  It should be 516.
[03:24.030 --> 03:24.310]  Yes.
[03:24.570 --> 03:24.850]  Where?
[03:25.010 --> 03:26.070]  You're pointing, Kyle, but I'm...
[03:26.070 --> 03:26.830]  To your right.
[03:27.050 --> 03:28.670]  Well, that's not... That's an awkward angle.
[03:29.030 --> 03:32.330]  516-620-3602.
[03:32.470 --> 03:35.710]  I should know it by now, but there are so many phone numbers, you know, it's really hard.
[03:36.990 --> 03:48.570]  That is the number to call to pledge support to this radio station and keep WBAI going, because WBAI is very much worth continuing, as we've proven year after year after year, since 1960.
[03:49.410 --> 03:51.710]  And boy, do we have lots of...
[03:52.290 --> 03:54.070]  You know, okay, I'm going to show you something right now.
[03:54.210 --> 03:55.110]  I found this.
[03:55.970 --> 03:59.710]  Kyle and I, we're going through films from every single year.
[03:59.890 --> 04:01.290]  We talk about this on the other radio show.
[04:01.290 --> 04:05.690]  So, we basically look at every Oscar-winning film, starting from when they had Oscars.
[04:06.910 --> 04:11.990]  And when we do this, we look at the year in history as well, through newsreels and things like that.
[04:12.050 --> 04:12.930]  You can find it on YouTube.
[04:13.550 --> 04:21.010]  And we're up to 1968, and we just saw In the Heat of the Night from 1967, but we saw a newsreel from 1968.
[04:21.010 --> 04:28.170]  And, of course, that was a really horrendous year as far as violence, assassinations, things like that.
[04:28.170 --> 04:45.450]  And one of the most heart-wrenching stories of that year is the assassination of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. We saw this piece from ABC News, where they were reporting on the assassination, April 4th, 1968.
[04:46.490 --> 04:50.690]  And they're talking about what's going on in Memphis, what's going on in Harlem.
[04:51.690 --> 05:02.930]  And out of the blue, out of the blue, Peter Jennings from ABC News just started talking about us.
[05:03.690 --> 05:04.510]  Have a listen.
[05:05.050 --> 05:09.090]  You know, it's a great radio station in New York here.
[05:09.830 --> 05:14.530]  WBAI are the call letters, I think, which is essentially a Harlem-oriented radio station.
[05:14.530 --> 05:22.410]  And on past occasions when things have got, you know, touchy in that particular area, WBAI has done a great deal to keep the community knit together and calm down.
[05:22.530 --> 05:25.650]  I was trying to get them on the radio at night and find out if they were keeping things cool.
[05:26.610 --> 05:36.950]  I was just so shocked to hear that, that all of a sudden we were pivotal on one of the most horrible days in history.
[05:37.830 --> 05:38.950]  People looked to us.
[05:39.090 --> 05:41.990]  And that has been the case throughout, through the decades.
[05:42.270 --> 05:45.710]  And I have no doubt it will be the case throughout the decades to come.
[05:45.830 --> 05:46.710]  With your support.
[05:46.850 --> 05:47.850]  With your support.
[05:48.310 --> 05:49.230]  Keep us going.
[05:49.430 --> 05:50.170]  Keep us on the air.
[05:50.230 --> 05:50.930]  Keep us broadcasting.
[05:51.070 --> 05:51.630]  Keep us relevant.
[05:52.550 --> 05:55.330]  516-620-3602.
[05:56.090 --> 06:00.030]  Now, tonight we're going to be talking a bit about automobiles.
[06:00.450 --> 06:03.990]  Because we have a special guest who's going to be talking about a story.
[06:04.670 --> 06:05.630]  involving automobiles.
[06:05.930 --> 06:11.410]  But I thought this might be a good opportunity for us to introduce a premium idea.
[06:11.590 --> 06:14.150]  Now, this is a premium idea we just had today.
[06:14.150 --> 06:18.930]  So we didn't actually have time to register it with the officials at WBAI.
[06:19.150 --> 06:21.530]  So what that means, doesn't have to be complicated.
[06:21.790 --> 06:25.490]  It just means that if you pledge for this, you have to let us know.
[06:25.650 --> 06:27.430]  And you have to show us evidence that you paid.
[06:27.910 --> 06:29.170]  And then we'll take care of the rest.
[06:29.550 --> 06:31.050]  Now, this is Gila's idea.
[06:31.050 --> 06:33.070]  She was standing on a subway platform.
[06:33.830 --> 06:35.310]  That's where she has all her ideas.
[06:35.490 --> 06:38.390]  And this is a great idea.
[06:38.730 --> 06:41.670]  So I'm going to just turn it over to you and you can describe it.
[06:41.890 --> 06:42.570]  Well, thanks, Emmanuel.
[06:42.810 --> 06:44.170]  I'm really excited about this.
[06:44.370 --> 06:49.170]  So our concept is that we wanted something that tied in with cars tonight.
[06:49.170 --> 07:07.490]  So what we are offering is that for a minimum pledge of $250 to WBAI in the name of Off the Hook, we will give you the opportunity to have one or several or all members of the panel on Off the Hook be the voice on your Waze app.
[07:07.490 --> 07:09.850]  We will tell you where to go.
[07:11.350 --> 07:12.130]  Well, okay.
[07:12.290 --> 07:16.790]  So people know Waze is an app that many people use when they're driving.
[07:17.110 --> 07:20.690]  It tells you to go certain places and not go certain places.
[07:20.730 --> 07:25.270]  And we have the ability to customize some of the messages.
[07:25.430 --> 07:26.070]  Not all the messages.
[07:26.070 --> 07:27.350]  We can customize street names.
[07:27.350 --> 07:32.410]  But we can customize turn left or make a U-turn or things like that.
[07:32.570 --> 07:33.730]  And we can add.
[07:33.870 --> 07:35.150]  We can add words.
[07:35.270 --> 07:36.210]  We can add names.
[07:36.430 --> 07:37.910]  We can personalize it to a degree.
[07:38.710 --> 07:41.510]  So we think this is going to be kind of fun.
[07:41.690 --> 07:49.530]  So, again, if you're willing to pledge at least $250 in the name of Off the Hook to WBAI.
[07:49.530 --> 07:55.650]  And you send us a screenshot of your receipt to OTH at 2600.com.
[07:55.830 --> 07:58.510]  We will get in touch with you and talk about your recording.
[07:58.650 --> 08:01.170]  Let's tape Northern State Park, Waze, Dix Hills.
[08:01.750 --> 08:04.830]  Well, that's a suggestion that Waze is currently giving us.
[08:04.910 --> 08:08.430]  And that's the British voice that I currently have set up here.
[08:08.670 --> 08:10.550]  But, you know, they have all different kinds of voices.
[08:11.290 --> 08:12.910]  Different languages and things like that.
[08:13.010 --> 08:14.750]  But you can also record your own.
[08:14.850 --> 08:17.610]  But it might be fun to hear our voices talking to you.
[08:17.610 --> 08:18.910]  Don't you think that would be...
[08:18.910 --> 08:21.130]  Well, it would definitely keep you awake, that's for sure.
[08:21.290 --> 08:24.350]  I mean, if you could have Cookie Monster tell you what to do on Waze, why not us?
[08:24.410 --> 08:25.070]  Oh, yeah.
[08:25.190 --> 08:26.650]  There are some really bad ones.
[08:26.830 --> 08:28.050]  Some really bad ones.
[08:28.450 --> 08:29.550]  But this can be a good one.
[08:29.670 --> 08:31.010]  It can be personalized just for you.
[08:31.110 --> 08:32.670]  Kyle, I've got one that I recorded for you.
[08:32.730 --> 08:34.350]  And it drives you crazy whenever you're driving.
[08:34.550 --> 08:35.590]  It addresses you by name.
[08:35.990 --> 08:37.090]  Is that what that is?
[08:37.090 --> 08:37.390]  Yeah.
[08:37.570 --> 08:39.570]  You thought that was me talking to you in the car.
[08:39.610 --> 08:41.030]  I thought it was telekinesis.
[08:41.270 --> 08:41.530]  Uh-uh.
[08:41.610 --> 08:41.890]  Okay.
[08:42.390 --> 08:42.670]  Sorry.
[08:42.830 --> 08:44.030]  We had a lot of fun with that.
[08:44.130 --> 08:45.050]  Well, I had a lot of fun with that.
[08:45.050 --> 08:48.110]  But this is something that we can get listeners involved in as well.
[08:48.250 --> 08:51.410]  And boy, can you really help support this radio station.
[08:52.430 --> 08:55.150]  516-620-3602.
[08:55.230 --> 08:57.210]  Now, you can also pledge online.
[08:57.470 --> 08:59.850]  Go to give2wbai.org.
[08:59.870 --> 09:04.130]  And if you pledge $250 there, just show us evidence that you paid.
[09:04.270 --> 09:07.970]  And once we confirm that, we will be in touch.
[09:08.070 --> 09:13.050]  And we will figure out exactly what you want recorded onto your Waze device.
[09:13.050 --> 09:15.770]  Now, we don't need your telephone to do this, right?
[09:15.990 --> 09:19.770]  How would people physically coordinate this with us?
[09:19.770 --> 09:31.130]  It is my understanding that you can record in the Waze app and then share it with specific people via text message, via other messaging applications.
[09:31.250 --> 09:37.210]  So we can send specifically to you, from one of us, your Waze setup.
[09:37.870 --> 09:39.490]  And then you simply...
[09:39.490 --> 09:41.010]  And then you just download it and go.
[09:41.130 --> 09:41.470]  Okay.
[09:41.470 --> 09:42.370]  That's my understanding.
[09:42.630 --> 09:47.490]  The other thing you could theoretically do, if you were so inclined, is put a check in the mail.
[09:47.630 --> 09:49.810]  A check for at least $250.
[09:50.050 --> 09:55.450]  Put it in the mail to WBAI at 388 Atlantic Avenue, Brooklyn, New York, 11217.
[09:56.970 --> 09:57.770]  And, yeah.
[09:58.010 --> 09:59.070]  We can hook you up.
[10:00.730 --> 10:01.130]  Yeah.
[10:01.710 --> 10:10.370]  You know, one thing I would like to mention about this, too, is that, you know, there is a certain script that you're supposed to follow when you're creating these Waze directions.
[10:10.670 --> 10:17.610]  And, you know, we may go off-piste or off-script a little bit and surprise you with some of the things you may hear.
[10:17.850 --> 10:24.050]  For instance, you know, with regard to, you know, police spotted ahead, things like that.
[10:24.190 --> 10:30.870]  There may be certain things that we will say that other Waze announcements wouldn't say about situations like that.
[10:30.930 --> 10:44.690]  You'll need to tell us what level of ratings you would like us to abide by as far as kid-friendly language or FCC-friendly language or things like that, particularly when a cop is spotted.
[10:44.810 --> 10:47.810]  Yeah, that's a fun one because we can alter that.
[10:47.890 --> 10:52.890]  We can make, you know, a few variations and you can choose which one you like the best.
[10:52.950 --> 10:59.850]  And I do think it is worth mentioning some representations and warranties that we will not lead you astray.
[10:59.850 --> 11:03.070]  If it's a left turn, we will tell you it's actually a left turn.
[11:03.190 --> 11:04.650]  We won't make it into a right turn.
[11:04.790 --> 11:06.230]  I think we can all promise that now.
[11:06.370 --> 11:08.410]  Do we all agree to abide by that rule?
[11:08.430 --> 11:09.610]  Of course, yeah, for our listeners.
[11:09.750 --> 11:15.510]  But can you imagine the mayhem you could cause if you simply recorded something and instead of saying left, you said right?
[11:16.350 --> 11:26.710]  And make this a game with Waze where you basically, you completely mix up all the directions and whoever it is who's driving has to figure out what you really mean.
[11:26.730 --> 11:28.410]  Because every time you say left, you mean right.
[11:28.410 --> 11:30.530]  Okay, so that means I turn left next time you say right.
[11:30.870 --> 11:32.630]  And you just make it really complicated.
[11:32.630 --> 11:35.090]  And then you tell somebody they have to get to a particular place.
[11:35.450 --> 11:43.190]  What we'll have to do is find a legal expert somewhere who could maybe tell us how honest we legally have to be inside someone's GPS app.
[11:43.190 --> 11:44.790]  But there's a lawyer sitting to your left.
[11:44.950 --> 11:45.830]  Yeah, maybe he knows someone.
[11:46.510 --> 11:47.210]  To my left?
[11:47.270 --> 11:48.090]  Do you know somebody honest?
[11:48.230 --> 12:03.450]  Oh, well, I would say that, you know, if we were to create a complicated conjury of directions like Emanuel had suggested, would be fun to do, would probably subject us to some kind of liability, you know, should you find yourself in an accident.
[12:03.630 --> 12:07.270]  It would not necessarily be the best way to win friends and influence people in this community.
[12:07.430 --> 12:09.830]  I don't think there's anything you can do that doesn't subject you to liability these days.
[12:09.870 --> 12:10.330]  That's correct.
[12:10.770 --> 12:14.910]  I'm sure we already have several lawsuits being prepared right now.
[12:14.970 --> 12:15.550]  I'm not surprised.
[12:15.570 --> 12:17.910]  After what we've said in the first 12 minutes of the show.
[12:17.910 --> 12:19.750]  So, um, what do you have there?
[12:20.170 --> 12:22.090]  Got some, uh, some audio going?
[12:24.190 --> 12:25.610]  I, I hear, I hear audio.
[12:25.750 --> 12:26.370]  I think that's you.
[12:27.770 --> 12:28.730]  No, that's not me.
[12:29.790 --> 12:31.630]  Are you coming from somewhere in this room?
[12:31.890 --> 12:32.590]  Is it coming from the other studio?
[12:33.950 --> 12:36.290]  Oh, I think, I think you have the computer up a little.
[12:36.470 --> 12:37.270]  Oh, it's the computer.
[12:37.950 --> 12:39.070]  No, it's not the computer.
[12:39.170 --> 12:39.730]  I turned it down.
[12:40.890 --> 12:42.190]  I don't know where that was coming from.
[12:42.270 --> 12:42.730]  It's Alex.
[12:43.590 --> 12:46.010]  It's, it's ghostly voices in our new studio.
[12:46.270 --> 12:46.870]  Is it the other room?
[12:46.870 --> 12:49.630]  No, this room is soundproof.
[12:50.250 --> 12:59.230]  There could be, you know... See, we need to get an advertising detector in this room because there is a ghost.
[12:59.430 --> 13:00.890]  There's a presence of ads.
[13:01.570 --> 13:09.890]  And at non-commercial radio, this is something we're constantly trying to hide and exterminate from the building.
[13:10.510 --> 13:12.510]  And ads are pesky.
[13:12.670 --> 13:13.590]  They find their way in.
[13:13.590 --> 13:14.530]  We don't have ads, Kyle.
[13:14.710 --> 13:15.670]  We don't have ads.
[13:15.850 --> 13:18.630]  We do not broadcast advertising on this radio station.
[13:19.770 --> 13:20.090]  Okay.
[13:20.470 --> 13:20.730]  I don't know.
[13:20.790 --> 13:21.910]  This is a relatively new room.
[13:21.970 --> 13:22.930]  It's a bit early for a haunting.
[13:23.130 --> 13:25.990]  No, but I think it's great that we keep finding new features of the new studio.
[13:26.210 --> 13:27.630]  You know, we've got the impeachment bell.
[13:27.790 --> 13:28.730]  We've got a ghost.
[13:29.030 --> 13:29.570]  It's great.
[13:29.810 --> 13:31.350]  Yeah, they took the impeachment bell away.
[13:31.490 --> 13:31.930]  Oh, man.
[13:31.930 --> 13:33.330]  Yeah, apparently it was being abused.
[13:33.490 --> 13:35.730]  And I don't think it was being abused at all.
[13:35.890 --> 13:37.470]  I think they needed to ring it harder.
[13:38.470 --> 13:38.790]  Okay.
[13:38.970 --> 13:42.710]  Anyway, we have a couple of stories we want to go through here.
[13:43.450 --> 13:48.650]  Somebody posted this on our mailing list, which, by the way, you can send us stories, too.
[13:48.810 --> 13:50.950]  OTH at 2600.com.
[13:51.130 --> 13:59.370]  And we generally read everything that is sent there, whether it's critiques, compliments, suggestions, demands, or news stories.
[14:00.390 --> 14:09.270]  Now, there is a state senator in Iowa who wants to spare Iowans the agony of search engines digging up past indiscretions from public view.
[14:09.270 --> 14:15.810]  Senator Zach Nunn, a Republican of Altoona, and his Right to be Forgotten Act.
[14:15.970 --> 14:16.890]  You know what?
[14:16.970 --> 14:18.110]  I've forgotten you already, Zach.
[14:18.270 --> 14:19.990]  So, mission accomplished.
[14:20.650 --> 14:27.690]  His bill seeks to authorize Iowans to request that certain content be removed from the Internet.
[14:27.910 --> 14:29.870]  That sounds simple enough, doesn't it?
[14:29.870 --> 14:36.750]  Yeah, Senate File 2236 is designed to protect Iowans who post information online.
[14:37.150 --> 14:41.050]  The challenge is... this is Zach Nunn telling us this.
[14:41.130 --> 14:46.810]  The challenge is that we basically have search engines out there that are basically...
[14:46.810 --> 14:53.570]  he likes the word basically... incentivized to cull this information from the Internet because they can sell advertising space for it.
[14:53.570 --> 15:09.790]  So, it's a law that looks at what's our digital right to privacy in the same way that we have in the physical world, while not forgetting the fact that when you put information out there, you have a responsible to go back and update it if you want to be clear on it.
[15:09.850 --> 15:10.850]  That's what he said, okay?
[15:13.250 --> 15:13.730]  Wow.
[15:13.910 --> 15:17.550]  And he's already pushing to have that statement forgotten on the Internet.
[15:17.550 --> 15:21.270]  But, unfortunately, it's on the radio, and that's forever.
[15:21.270 --> 15:25.810]  None said the proposal is designed to aid people like...
[15:27.070 --> 15:28.110]  like King.
[15:28.370 --> 15:29.230]  It just says King.
[15:29.410 --> 15:30.650]  Oh, Carson King.
[15:31.550 --> 15:32.190]  Okay.
[15:33.310 --> 15:41.310]  Who was propelled to fame last September, but now is speaking to young people to warn teens of the social media strength, both good and bad.
[15:42.490 --> 15:59.250]  King's sign seeking beer money in the throng of Iowa State football fans who showed up for an ESPN game day telecast caused his profile to skyrocket, and with the number of donations he inspired for the University of Iowa Stead Family Children's Hospital,
[15:59.350 --> 16:04.890]  but he encountered pitfalls and valleys particularly related to the social media platform that propelled his rise.
[16:04.890 --> 16:13.390]  When offensive and hurtful Internet tweets he made at age 16 nearly eight years ago, he held a...
[16:14.090 --> 16:22.690]  I think they mean to say when they popped up, he held a news conference and apologized, noting he had been quoting the Comedy Central show Tosh.0.
[16:22.870 --> 16:23.330]  Okay, whatever.
[16:23.330 --> 16:35.330]  It seems like something embarrassing came up as a result of sudden fame, and the bill is supposedly to allow that to be forgotten.
[16:35.470 --> 16:36.430]  Does that make sense to you, Alex?
[16:36.650 --> 16:37.810]  Yeah, I think it does.
[16:37.990 --> 16:40.490]  I mean, in an EU, you do have this right.
[16:40.490 --> 16:50.110]  I think it's actually by way of a European Union directive to be forgotten, to have certain things de-indexed by Google, certain pages, things like that.
[16:50.110 --> 17:01.070]  So this is sort of an alignment of your state rights in Iowa with similar rights that European Union citizens would have, and I think it does make a lot of sense, particularly for young people.
[17:01.790 --> 17:25.830]  You know, one of the things that has popped up over the last several years with respect to social media is a cottage industry for the creation of new and believable social media accounts for teenagers who are applying to colleges, because they know that admissions directors and others who are going to be evaluating them very often look at their social media profiles to determine whether or not
[17:25.830 --> 17:37.670]  they are, you know, rambunctious teenagers, rabble-rousers, troublemakers, etc., that should or should not be admitted into this fine institution of higher learning to which they seek admission.
[17:38.130 --> 17:43.130]  And so I think it's a great idea to give people a second chance to remove that content.
[17:43.130 --> 17:50.110]  I presume that the law only applies to content that you have yourself created.
[17:50.850 --> 18:00.710]  What would be even more interesting, in my opinion, would be to have otherwise defamatory content removed more easily from the Internet as well.
[18:00.810 --> 18:13.950]  I mean, we have lots of clients that have issues with erroneous or false statements that are made on social media platforms, Craigslist, a whole bunch of other places, and it's very, very difficult to get these things removed.
[18:14.230 --> 18:23.690]  Okay, well, let me just break in here, because I'm a little curious how you feel about this as far as protecting the person who says something.
[18:23.770 --> 18:30.390]  Let's use an example, the birther statements from Trump about Obama, saying he wasn't born in this country.
[18:30.650 --> 18:36.390]  Let's say Trump had a conscience, and he said, I don't want this to be online anymore.
[18:36.390 --> 18:39.830]  I don't want people to know that I said these horrible, disgusting, racist things.
[18:41.010 --> 18:56.110]  Is that something that, since he wants to remove those statements that make him look like an idiot, and those statements were negative in tone towards Barack Obama, is that something that a bill like this would make possible?
[18:56.830 --> 18:59.970]  Probably not, unless Trump was an Iowa state citizen.
[18:59.970 --> 19:02.050]  But let's presume, I guess, that he was, right?
[19:02.990 --> 19:05.390]  I think it probably would apply, right?
[19:05.490 --> 19:07.150]  I mean, you can have a change of heart.
[19:07.230 --> 19:12.250]  You can change your mind, and your viewpoints should not be set in stone forever and ever.
[19:12.450 --> 19:17.350]  But what happens if I come along and I say, Aha, this guy said this, and here's the truth.
[19:17.530 --> 19:19.790]  Am I now committing a crime by revealing that...
[19:19.790 --> 19:20.510]  You wouldn't be committing a crime.
[19:20.510 --> 19:23.350]  I think it's perfectly fine to archive these things, to find them.
[19:23.430 --> 19:24.270]  You don't have to...
[19:24.270 --> 19:33.710]  I can't imagine that the law is going to have such a long reach that it's going to affect every single copy of whatever that statement was.
[19:33.850 --> 19:43.990]  And we know with platforms such as Twitter, people are constantly archiving and constantly imaging the tweets and posts of the president and other prominent politicians.
[19:43.990 --> 19:55.070]  So I don't necessarily see there being any risk that a politician would be able to get away with double backing on something as crazy as a birther statement.
[19:55.070 --> 19:59.670]  People will be able to call them out on that because there are going to be records and copies of those statements.
[19:59.890 --> 20:10.810]  But if you're a child, and perhaps this should just apply to minors, if you're a child and you've said something stupid on the internet, you don't want it necessarily affecting the rest of your life or your job prospects.
[20:11.390 --> 20:23.030]  You don't want your employer asking questions about this or having it necessarily have any kind of adverse consequences other than, you know, for that brief moment in time that you made some kind of stupid comment.
[20:23.890 --> 20:27.750]  Okay, well, I mean, we can assume every child is going to make a stupid comment at one point or another.
[20:27.910 --> 20:33.110]  But I guess the question is, how protected do we want people to be?
[20:33.410 --> 20:42.470]  I just, to me, I never delete anything I say because I said it, you know, and I believe in the values of the printed word.
[20:42.830 --> 20:46.730]  So if you print something, it's published, you can't take it back.
[20:46.730 --> 20:47.990]  You can't say you never said it.
[20:48.090 --> 20:51.070]  And I feel things like Twitter and Facebook should be the same.
[20:51.170 --> 20:52.550]  I know a lot of people don't agree with that.
[20:52.550 --> 20:59.450]  A lot of people just simply modify their statements and delete them because they don't like the way it makes them look now.
[20:59.790 --> 21:04.490]  But I think there's, you know, we can't constantly be editing our past.
[21:04.790 --> 21:19.550]  Yeah, I mean, look, I think there is some validity to what you're saying because platforms like Facebook and Twitter that keep something permanently or keep a permanent record of it, you know, they're different from applications that the kids today love to use,
[21:19.670 --> 21:25.530]  like Snapchat or, you know, Telegram, things that will automatically make your messages disappear.
[21:25.890 --> 21:31.950]  So, you know, there are avenues if you don't want to create a permanent record of what you said to somebody in any particular time.
[21:31.970 --> 21:45.730]  And perhaps this law is causing an alignment between social media platforms that would otherwise have permanent records to be more consonant with the sort of the Snapchat generation where nothing is permanent.
[21:45.730 --> 21:47.430]  You can get away with saying anything you want.
[21:48.130 --> 21:56.550]  But look, on the other hand, I do think we should allow minors some leeway as to their political views and viewpoints and statements.
[21:56.850 --> 21:57.390]  Well, how about this?
[21:57.470 --> 22:00.070]  We teach minors that they don't have to use their real name.
[22:00.470 --> 22:02.590]  On the Internet, you can be anybody you want.
[22:02.690 --> 22:09.670]  I don't know why people don't do this more, where if you use up a particular persona, okay, just invent another one then.
[22:09.850 --> 22:13.390]  It doesn't have to be tied to you as a person.
[22:13.390 --> 22:26.410]  Well, teaching anonymity and the practice of anonymity and operational security to kids, good cyber hygiene, so to speak, is definitely something that should be part of these core curriculums here.
[22:26.510 --> 22:44.010]  I mean, not necessarily how to be anonymous and post anonymously on the Internet, but I think it would be a good thing for kids to learn, to know about things like the Onion Router, VPNs, proxies, all this kind of stuff that can hide and master identity if they do want to do something crazy on the Internet,
[22:44.650 --> 22:46.290]  you know, make some ridiculous posts.
[22:46.650 --> 22:48.310]  You know, there's plenty of ways to do it.
[22:48.690 --> 22:54.970]  You know, simple Google searches should return results that would allow you to gain sufficient knowledge.
[22:55.170 --> 22:58.910]  Well, let's search on DuckDuckGo so that the whole world doesn't know what you're doing.
[22:59.050 --> 22:59.890]  That's true, too.
[23:00.030 --> 23:03.550]  Or you start getting ads for, you know, VPN providers immediately.
[23:04.650 --> 23:08.790]  But look, I see there, you know, it's a double-edged sword as well.
[23:08.910 --> 23:16.750]  We do want to teach kids that, you know, what they say does have consequences, but I don't think those consequences should affect them permanently in the way that they currently do.
[23:16.990 --> 23:26.010]  So I see it as a very well-intentioned law, but it doesn't necessarily have the limitation in scope that I think it should have at the moment.
[23:26.010 --> 23:36.510]  Maybe what we need to adjust are our expectations of people, and people will say the wrong thing sometimes, and maybe we shouldn't be so harsh judging them, especially if they're kids.
[23:36.690 --> 23:39.750]  But just denying they ever said it, I don't know if that's the answer.
[23:39.890 --> 23:42.450]  And it seems that's the expectation of a lot of people.
[23:42.610 --> 23:45.630]  Well, in the world today, outrage is such a commodity.
[23:45.630 --> 23:52.690]  I think it would be very difficult to change hearts and minds with respect to, you know, not passing judgment on stupid statements.
[23:52.690 --> 23:56.090]  I mean, that's, I think it's the only thing Twitter's for these days.
[23:56.270 --> 23:58.690]  And those words will live forever in our archives.
[23:58.910 --> 24:00.030]  There's nothing you can do about it, Alex.
[24:00.390 --> 24:07.010]  Not until, you know, Senator Nunn, you know, migrates to New York and makes similar reticulous statements.
[24:07.030 --> 24:18.970]  Okay, here's an amazing story, you know, related to the way things are changing with technology and what you believe to be true just simply turns out not to be true.
[24:18.970 --> 24:25.010]  You know how, uh, when you buy a car, you're buying a car, you're buying a car that has certain functions.
[24:25.250 --> 24:26.590]  Well, not so fast.
[24:26.610 --> 24:28.130]  It doesn't always work that way.
[24:28.450 --> 24:40.950]  Uh, we have this incredible story of a Tesla, a used Tesla that, uh, was, was, um, bought by somebody bought from, from a dealer with certain features.
[24:42.450 --> 24:47.790]  And it turns out those features were remotely deleted by Tesla.
[24:48.750 --> 24:49.190]  Yeah.
[24:49.550 --> 24:55.290]  This is an amazing story on, uh, the, uh, uh, Jalopnik website.
[24:55.630 --> 24:56.510]  I hope I'm pronouncing that right.
[24:56.850 --> 25:01.650]  And, uh, joining us right now is the author of that piece, Jason Torchinski.
[25:01.930 --> 25:02.550]  Jason, are you there?
[25:03.450 --> 25:03.830]  I'm good.
[25:03.910 --> 25:04.030]  Yes.
[25:04.090 --> 25:04.450]  How are you?
[25:04.670 --> 25:08.810]  Can you tell us something about this crazy story involving a used Tesla?
[25:08.970 --> 25:10.010]  What, what exactly happened?
[25:10.950 --> 25:12.610]  Yeah, well, okay.
[25:12.810 --> 25:20.230]  So, uh, it's, as you described, you know, a man, uh, bought a Tesla, it was used and he bought it from a dealer.
[25:20.350 --> 25:27.190]  It was actually a car that was, uh, sold, uh, at auction by Tesla because it was part of one of the, the Lemon Law Returns thing.
[25:27.230 --> 25:29.150]  It had a, a defect in its screen.
[25:29.150 --> 25:30.390]  It's kind of a known defect.
[25:30.650 --> 25:35.130]  Um, and they repaired it and then they sold it at auction to a dealership.
[25:35.330 --> 25:44.250]  Now the dealership got this with the Maroni on the other window sticker, uh, stating that the car had a few features like, uh, the enhanced autopilot feature.
[25:44.370 --> 26:00.750]  That's their level two semi-autonomous system that Tesla has and what Tesla calls full self-driving capability, which is really not full self-driving capability, but it's a set of features that hypothetically one day could offer something close to self-driving capability.
[26:00.750 --> 26:15.170]  Um, and that's another issue I have with Tesla entirely, but, uh, so it had these features and these features were on the car when the dealership got it and they were on the car when they sold it to the private buyer of the car.
[26:15.610 --> 26:33.780]  And then after, after the, uh, car had changed hands, meaning after they had sold it for a Tesla had sold it to the dealer and the title reflects the date that this happened, Tesla went in a couple days later and did what they called an audit on the car and basically flagged these features for removal.
[26:33.900 --> 26:37.980]  So the next time that the car got a software update, those features disappeared.
[26:38.340 --> 26:44.660]  Uh, the owner of the car, after he bought it, did a software update a few, uh, maybe a couple of weeks after he got the car.
[26:44.800 --> 26:49.800]  So he had the car, had the features, did the software update, and then all of a sudden the features were gone.
[26:51.080 --> 26:59.400]  And so this, this, um, this person bought the car from the dealership with the features that had been paid for by the dealership.
[26:59.560 --> 27:02.800]  So how does Tesla justify deleting them?
[27:03.680 --> 27:04.900]  Well, that's the tricky part.
[27:05.360 --> 27:08.000]  I don't actually think they necessarily can.
[27:08.700 --> 27:21.840]  If it was a subscription service, like some cars come with something like, you know, GM's OnStar, for example, is like a subscription concierge service that you have in your car, and you push a button, you connect to an operator, and they help you out if you're in trouble or whatever,
[27:21.980 --> 27:24.940]  and you pay a fee, like a monthly or yearly fee for that.
[27:25.100 --> 27:25.900]  So that makes sense.
[27:26.060 --> 27:29.300]  If you don't pay the fee, you don't get to use that feature.
[27:29.500 --> 27:30.740]  These are different features.
[27:30.980 --> 27:34.360]  These are something closer to like cruise control in a conventional car.
[27:35.100 --> 27:47.380]  It's the kind of thing where normally, as we understand buying and selling of cars and how it's always been since we've had cars to buy and sell, the features the car comes with at times of purchase are the features that you get.
[27:48.220 --> 27:51.860]  Tesla seems to feel this is more of a license agreement, it seems.
[27:52.400 --> 27:57.260]  And if you had, you know, like, and the features are something that they can remove at any time.
[27:57.600 --> 28:02.940]  Now, I should mention, since the story came out, Tesla did restore this man's features.
[28:03.200 --> 28:06.800]  And they did say it was a misunderstanding of some kind.
[28:07.040 --> 28:10.200]  I don't think this represents a major change in policy.
[28:10.380 --> 28:13.140]  I think they were just feeling the heat from the publicity this was getting.
[28:13.360 --> 28:13.640]  Absolutely.
[28:13.640 --> 28:19.240]  They also, and they normally, you know, it used to be Tesla's PR department was pretty good about responding.
[28:19.660 --> 28:26.680]  I reached out to them many times during the course of writing the article, and they have yet to respond to me in any way.
[28:26.880 --> 28:34.040]  I've also gotten a ton of email from other Tesla, people who have bought used Tesla that have talked about the same thing happening to them.
[28:34.260 --> 28:35.840]  This is not an isolated incident.
[28:36.080 --> 28:39.140]  They made it right for the gentleman who bought this particular Tesla.
[28:39.340 --> 28:44.560]  But I think there's many more customers out there for whom they've been doing this to.
[28:44.740 --> 28:49.060]  And I don't know that this is a blanket policy that they're going to make it right for everybody.
[28:49.060 --> 28:50.520]  I think maybe just the noisy ones.
[28:50.740 --> 28:52.340]  Yeah, we've seen that to be the case.
[28:52.480 --> 28:59.760]  Now, Jason, is this something that you think is isolated to Tesla, or is this what other automobile manufacturers are doing as well?
[29:00.580 --> 29:17.080]  I think right now at this moment, it's fairly isolated to Tesla, partially because most other manufacturers aren't, haven't pushed into an area of technology where they have features that can be turned on or off remotely at will.
[29:18.540 --> 29:26.900]  Tesla, I believe, is the only one doing this level of aggressive, like what they call over-the-air updates, where they can turn features on or off via software.
[29:27.120 --> 29:36.060]  And a lot of Tesla features in this way, including some things as enabling the, like the ludicrous power mode, like the faster acceleration mode in the Tesla.
[29:36.320 --> 29:45.520]  Even to some degree, there's, I guess, they only produce, I believe they produce a smaller number of battery pack capacities than options they have for buying it.
[29:45.600 --> 29:55.960]  And in some of them, they can actually remotely disable the amount of energy available in the battery to people if they haven't paid enough for the full battery pack.
[29:56.120 --> 30:06.220]  And I know that that's the case because occasionally, in times of disaster, they'll announce that they're, um, temporarily, like, releasing the restrictions for battery packs.
[30:06.360 --> 30:10.800]  So if people have to get out of a given area, they can, you know, make sure they have the range to, to escape.
[30:11.160 --> 30:14.160]  And Jason, you, uh, if I could jump in a second, this is Alex.
[30:14.440 --> 30:17.040]  You, you mentioned the ludicrous speed package.
[30:17.620 --> 30:19.940]  Um, you know, this was such a fascinating article.
[30:20.160 --> 30:32.960]  And at the end of the article, there was an update, if I recall, uh, from the dealer who mentioned that this had actually happened to him with respect to his father-in-law's car.
[30:33.180 --> 30:46.420]  Uh, and, and in particular, the ludicrous speed package that he sold his father-in-law a car with and that subsequently Tesla did the same thing to him that he had, that they removed it.
[30:46.500 --> 30:47.160]  It's incredible.
[30:47.940 --> 30:50.460]  Yeah, they removed it two months after the initial purchase.
[30:51.240 --> 31:01.020]  Um, and so it's very confusing because honestly, I'm not a hundred percent sure how Tesla views some of these features on their car.
[31:01.060 --> 31:13.660]  When they say you haven't paid for it, you know, when they're telling the second buyers or third buyers or whatever that they haven't paid for it, it's not really clear just what they mean by that because it's never clear.
[31:13.860 --> 31:20.960]  It's like, I've never known the, um, you know, like the ludicrous mode has never been established as like a subscription service or a license.
[31:21.220 --> 31:31.240]  It's just been a feature that you check or don't check on a car the same way back in the day, you may have opted for a larger engine option to get more power out of a car or a dual carb setup or whatever.
[31:31.580 --> 31:51.780]  So I, I, it feels to me like they're doing a little bit of like retroactive, um, retroactive kind of rules and position on how this is because they, because they've realized there's money that they can personally make from the sale of used cars in a way that car companies haven't been able to monetize before.
[31:52.000 --> 32:00.720]  Like you buy an old, you know, Honda or VW or Ford or whatever, and that's, you know, a used car, you know, the major company doesn't see anything from that.
[32:00.820 --> 32:06.320]  You know, like you buy a 1995 Passat and Volkswagen's not getting a dime in that sale.
[32:06.460 --> 32:11.960]  However, if there's features that can be turned on and off, then all of a sudden you can monetize used car sales as well.
[32:12.260 --> 32:12.600]  Yeah.
[32:12.740 --> 32:34.280]  And that's one of the things about this that I find extraordinarily disturbing because this is a method whereby a car manufacturer can extract money from not only just the original sale of the car, but every subsequent purchaser of the used car, they could turn these features on and off at will and demand and literally extract cash from them,
[32:34.740 --> 32:37.820]  um, for using features that were part of the original car.
[32:37.960 --> 32:45.280]  I mean, this would be tantamount to, you know, I've got a, uh, a fancy fender system in my VW sport wagon, right?
[32:45.420 --> 32:52.500]  You know, if somebody, if the VW dealership came in after the fact and after I bought the car and said, oh, you know, we forgot to charge you for this.
[32:52.660 --> 32:55.840]  So we're just going to remove it from your car in the middle of the night.
[32:56.100 --> 32:59.540]  I mean, that, that would essentially be a crime in my book.
[32:59.640 --> 33:09.880]  Um, and the other crazy thing is that they are depreciating the value of a car after its, uh, after its purchase, you know, to the tune of thousands and thousands of dollars.
[33:10.060 --> 33:26.560]  I mean, if you were to vandalize a car and cause $8,000 worth of damage, which is what I believe this, uh, full self-driving, which is not really self-driving capability and the autopilot feature, uh, amounted to, uh, you know, that would be, you know,
[33:26.860 --> 33:29.060]  that would be felony if you, if you did that.
[33:29.060 --> 33:30.600]  So, I mean, it's incredible to me.
[33:31.020 --> 33:49.320]  So playing devil's advocate here for a second though, uh, do you think that there would be some merit to the argument that because what we're dealing with here is software and updates to software require programming and effort and continued vigilance to make sure that there aren't bugs,
[33:49.480 --> 33:59.860]  flaws, security vulnerabilities, that when you buy a Tesla, you are implicitly buying into some kind of software licensing agreement for the continued use of those features?
[34:01.260 --> 34:04.580]  I think you, one could make an argument for that.
[34:04.720 --> 34:11.120]  However, if that was the case, Tesla would have to be completely explicit about that from the get-go, which they have not been.
[34:11.260 --> 34:15.680]  It has never been pitched as this is a licensed service that can expire.
[34:16.000 --> 34:27.860]  And maybe even in the context, the way it is now, they could argue you can get like required safety updates if something's wrong and things like that, but no improved versions unless you pay.
[34:27.860 --> 34:28.740]  I think that's fair.
[34:29.300 --> 34:30.660]  Like, you know, there's a lot of software that way.
[34:30.740 --> 34:35.980]  You buy a version of Photoshop, let's say you buy a version, you know, you bought version five years ago.
[34:36.140 --> 34:40.060]  That doesn't necessarily mean you're going to get the latest versions just because.
[34:40.060 --> 34:41.740]  You would still have to pay to upgrade.
[34:41.920 --> 34:44.140]  So I think they could make that argument.
[34:44.300 --> 35:02.460]  They could make the argument that upgrades cost money, but I don't think they can make the argument that the software itself can be removed unless they make that absolutely clear when the person buys the car that you are buying effectively a license or subscription to a given feature,
[35:02.640 --> 35:06.340]  whether it's ludicrous mode or, you know, autopilot or whatever it is.
[35:06.560 --> 35:08.520]  And, you know, they have not sold their cars that way.
[35:08.760 --> 35:08.760]  Right.
[35:09.260 --> 35:19.700]  Jason, one of my questions here, uh, concerning, um, the, the transfer of ownership, uh, let's say you buy this car from a dealer and now it belongs to you and not them.
[35:19.900 --> 35:24.320]  At what point do you have to tell Tesla that you own the car instead of the dealer?
[35:24.480 --> 35:29.660]  How do they find out that somebody new has it and they're, they're trying to milk them for another fee?
[35:30.740 --> 35:31.480]  That's a good point.
[35:31.480 --> 35:39.320]  I don't know how, um, I don't know if there is a method for like, when it changes hands alerting the manufacturer.
[35:39.940 --> 35:43.820]  Uh, you know, we've never had to do that previously with cars, really.
[35:45.160 --> 35:53.180]  Um, and I don't know if there, I don't think there is a system in place, but they, they found out somehow though, they, they found out there was a new owner somehow.
[35:53.700 --> 35:58.580]  Well, they knew because Tesla themselves stole, uh, sold it to the dealership.
[35:58.760 --> 36:07.320]  So they, they, there was no needed to find out because remember this, the dealer bought it from an auction that Tesla themselves was auctioning it off.
[36:07.680 --> 36:09.620]  So the dealer bought it directly from Tesla.
[36:09.620 --> 36:11.800]  So when Tesla flagged Those things for removal.
[36:12.060 --> 36:16.060]  It was because they knew the car was changing hands because they sold it.
[36:16.740 --> 36:30.620]  Yeah, ostensibly the dealer would have access to what private citizens selling or buying or selling would be working with, which is primarily just the title change on the registration documents in whatever state.
[36:31.340 --> 36:31.860]  Right.
[36:32.540 --> 36:34.980]  Now, I don't know if it was between two private sellers.
[36:34.980 --> 36:38.440]  I'm not sure if Tesla would have necessarily known.
[36:38.440 --> 36:51.440]  But I think there must be a way that they do know because I've gotten so many emails from people talking about buying used Teslas and having features go away that maybe the VIN gets flagged or something like that.
[36:52.080 --> 36:54.360]  This fascinates me on many levels.
[36:54.540 --> 37:04.160]  And one of them is the fact that they've opened up this can of worms for cars, which is something that hadn't before that, I think, really been considered part of the Internet of Things.
[37:04.160 --> 37:12.360]  I mean, if you get like what happens when there is no Tesla, what does this do to the repairability and the maintainability of these cars?
[37:12.540 --> 37:19.860]  Because if you like say a car company that doesn't exist anymore, say DeLorean, because I just watched Back to the Future, you buy an old DeLorean right now.
[37:20.020 --> 37:26.900]  And if you're mechanically inclined and you know, like the fire happens in this part and the wheels go this way, you could still fix one up and get one going.
[37:26.900 --> 37:31.800]  And, you know, that saves however much steel from being thrown in the garbage or whatever.
[37:31.960 --> 37:39.960]  But, you know, now that now that a car is a computer, like we're in the era of Knight Rider, but like we're depending on now a company remaining solvent.
[37:40.160 --> 37:47.000]  Not only do we have to pay into it, but they have to remain solvent themselves in order for us to keep using a device that we ostensibly own.
[37:48.020 --> 37:54.580]  Yeah, I mean, you know, we've always gone through this to some degree, you know, like there's always been cars that have been orphaned.
[37:54.580 --> 37:59.180]  Basically, their companies go out of business of getting parts becomes harder.
[37:59.360 --> 38:00.580]  It's a discontinued model.
[38:00.820 --> 38:05.320]  I happen to own a couple of cars that are no longer made and getting parts gets harder and harder over the years.
[38:06.080 --> 38:11.080]  But, you know, it is doable and it's still a little different, no matter what happened to that original company.
[38:11.220 --> 38:17.600]  I mean, you could be driving, you know, something with a very, you know, a DeSoto or a DKW or something where the company is very forgotten.
[38:17.820 --> 38:19.000]  But you can still get the car.
[38:19.220 --> 38:20.300]  The car can still go.
[38:20.400 --> 38:21.480]  It's fundamentally independent.
[38:21.480 --> 38:29.820]  My fear is Tesla could take this a step further and actually do a real call-home kind of system.
[38:29.820 --> 38:36.860]  So if Tesla's servers stop responding, then the car gets bricked and doesn't drive at all.
[38:37.000 --> 38:41.660]  They're not doing that yet, but they're closer than anybody else to doing that.
[38:41.660 --> 38:56.820]  And down the road there, you know, if it doesn't get, you know, an update installed properly or anything like that happens, it's certainly possible you could end up with a brick Tesla, but not because of anything wrong mechanically with the car, but because of a bit of software that,
[38:56.900 --> 39:01.300]  you know, you had no awareness of up until the point it made your car stop moving.
[39:01.300 --> 39:01.300]  Right.
[39:01.400 --> 39:07.120]  Well, it's interesting you bring that up because we have a story about a car actually being bricked.
[39:07.460 --> 39:14.280]  A reporter, a tech reporter from The Guardian had a rented car.
[39:14.800 --> 39:21.520]  And basically, this car was meant to communicate with a cell tower.
[39:22.080 --> 39:25.580]  And when it lost the cell signal, it's called the gig car share.
[39:25.720 --> 39:30.780]  When it lost the cell signal, the car just stopped working completely.
[39:30.980 --> 39:32.140]  Have you heard of anything like that?
[39:33.880 --> 39:39.580]  Well, the car share system, that's like an aftermarket, you know, added layer of stuff that they put on it.
[39:39.580 --> 39:42.620]  But I know that kind of thing is certainly possible.
[39:43.720 --> 39:48.480]  I don't know of any major manufacturer that's requiring a callback to keep going.
[39:48.600 --> 39:59.240]  But I know in the farm industry, like John Deere, I know there's a big right to repair fight going on among farmers for things like combines and tractors.
[39:59.360 --> 40:00.920]  I think they're even more aggressive.
[40:00.920 --> 40:05.580]  And John Deere's, like combines and tractors, do a lot of calling home.
[40:05.720 --> 40:11.760]  And you, even if you own it, John Deere will often prevent farmers from doing any kind of repairs on them whatsoever.
[40:12.360 --> 40:13.380]  It's all related.
[40:13.600 --> 40:21.080]  I think, you know, what we're seeing, it's of course a smaller market for farm implements than it is passenger cars.
[40:21.300 --> 40:23.620]  But the fundamental technology is basically the same.
[40:23.860 --> 40:30.380]  And if John Deere is trying it now, then, you know, it's not, it wouldn't take a leap to think other companies might try it as well.
[40:30.380 --> 40:35.920]  And that, of course, is not just driving it, but repair, being able to make your own modifications to your car.
[40:36.060 --> 40:40.160]  Again, just the fundamental question of, do you really own these machines anymore?
[40:40.260 --> 40:42.820]  When you buy it, does that still mean you actually own it?
[40:43.100 --> 40:49.640]  And the more calling home and the more tethered these things get to the original company, the less we actually own them.
[40:49.640 --> 40:51.480]  And that's kind of an alarming idea.
[40:51.820 --> 40:53.040]  Yeah, alarming indeed.
[40:53.040 --> 41:04.520]  And I think you seem to intimate some sort of skepticism in your article that I have in front of me, which really is an excellent article, and we'll tweet it out to all of the listeners after the show.
[41:04.620 --> 41:15.020]  But you mentioned in the article that you confirmed that Tesla sold the car to the dealership on November 15th, and you confirmed that by looking at the car's title.
[41:15.220 --> 41:23.040]  But on November 18th, and here's the quote, quote, Tesla seems to have conducted an audit, and audit is in quotes, of the car remotely.
[41:23.420 --> 41:30.280]  You know, I circled that word when I was reading the article for the first time, because what the hell is this remote kind of audit?
[41:30.420 --> 41:31.900]  Could you explain that to us?
[41:32.020 --> 41:36.680]  And whether Tesla is the only kind of car that does this remote, quote-unquote, audit?
[41:37.440 --> 41:41.140]  As far as I know, they're the only ones who do something like this.
[41:41.360 --> 41:44.320]  And there's a couple of key things about what happened there.
[41:44.460 --> 41:46.460]  So the audit itself is a little strange.
[41:46.660 --> 41:50.780]  You know, they're clearly sending a signal out to the car, and the car is...
[41:50.780 --> 41:53.100]  I'm not 100% sure what happens in this audit.
[41:53.300 --> 42:01.480]  What I can gather is that they're asking the car for its, basically, its vital stats, and, you know, what's installed on it and what's not.
[42:01.480 --> 42:10.280]  But probably other data like VIN and mileage and other things are being sent back for Tesla, I guess, to update their records about this particular car.
[42:10.480 --> 42:19.580]  The problem, the biggest problem here is the car was sold, and again, confirmed to the title, Tesla transferred ownership of the car to the dealership on November 15th.
[42:19.660 --> 42:24.200]  They didn't do their audit until, I believe, the 18th of November.
[42:24.420 --> 42:29.820]  So when they actually came in and audited this car, they no longer owned the car.
[42:29.820 --> 42:36.260]  And I think that's the crux of the real problem here, that that shouldn't necessarily be legal.
[42:36.380 --> 42:40.620]  If they did all this before they sold the car, this would be a very different story.
[42:40.980 --> 42:52.440]  Because if, you know, if a company buys back a car to sell at auction and they realize the car has a great radio in it, it's within their rights while they still own the car to take it out and put in just some crappy radio or a blanking plate or whatever,
[42:52.820 --> 42:53.720]  and then sell the car.
[42:54.320 --> 43:04.260]  This is closer to being like, if they sold the car and then sent some guys out to see what kind of radio was in it after the car was sold, and then broke into the car and stole the radio.
[43:04.720 --> 43:06.020]  Because that's really what they did.
[43:06.140 --> 43:08.480]  They did not own the car at the time of the audit.
[43:08.700 --> 43:10.280]  I completely agree with you there.
[43:10.280 --> 43:18.360]  The fact that this was post-sale and cars are sold as is with all of the mechanics and all the equipment and all the software that's on board at the time of sale.
[43:18.360 --> 43:24.120]  Well, and the mystery of what happens in that audit is really something I think that we should investigate further.
[43:24.460 --> 43:28.740]  And perhaps maybe our listeners can chime in as to what happens there.
[43:28.940 --> 43:39.080]  But, you know, this is such an important article, and I think it's something that we really need to rail and fight against because it will have a certain amount of precedential value to other manufacturers.
[43:39.280 --> 43:41.480]  You mentioned John Deere's already trying to do things like this.
[43:41.480 --> 43:55.140]  The right to repair is, I think, a fundamental right for the hacker community, for technology enthusiasts in general, and it's something that we really need to valiantly strive to defend.
[43:55.440 --> 44:01.320]  So I think this is an incredibly well-written and important article, and we really thank you for being with us tonight.
[44:01.520 --> 44:06.960]  Yeah, I like referring to it as a high-tech braking and entering by Tesla of a car they don't own anymore.
[44:06.960 --> 44:08.480]  I think that's the way to look at it.
[44:08.480 --> 44:19.320]  Because, you know, we're kind of being programmed to think of technology as something we don't own, that we're just renting out a license to use, and it should not be tolerated.
[44:19.400 --> 44:20.320]  That should not be the case.
[44:20.620 --> 44:29.760]  It's as though we're supposed to constantly be in awe of technology and the sort of high priests of that knowledge.
[44:30.160 --> 44:35.600]  And really, I think what this kind of article and the discussion is saying is, let's take an interest.
[44:35.600 --> 44:40.000]  Like, for gosh sakes, people are spending so much money on these cars.
[44:40.320 --> 44:46.700]  And as we pointed out in discussion, that a lot of that value is being taken out.
[44:47.460 --> 44:52.540]  And so far as I'm sure this is going to become a negotiating strategy when people are buying used cars.
[44:52.680 --> 44:54.160]  Yeah, it's not really worth that much.
[44:54.500 --> 44:56.200]  And so on and so forth.
[44:56.200 --> 45:16.040]  But really, it's for the consumer to take an interest and advocate for ourselves, for one another, to understand these systems on a deeper level, so that it isn't sort of unattainable as far as... or unmaintainable, rather.
[45:16.500 --> 45:26.700]  And along those lines, if any members of the hacker community out there listening to this know more about the possibility of maybe jailbreaking and rooting an automobile, such as a Tesla, we want to hear about it.
[45:26.840 --> 45:27.180]  Oh, boy.
[45:27.220 --> 45:28.320]  OTH at 2600.com.
[45:28.760 --> 45:29.060]  That's right.
[45:29.180 --> 45:31.960]  Jason, I want to thank you so much for being with us tonight.
[45:32.160 --> 45:34.200]  Is there any more information that you want to give out?
[45:34.280 --> 45:35.380]  Any links or anything like that?
[45:35.840 --> 45:40.660]  Well, I would like to encourage everybody to go buy my book, which is called Robot, Take the Wheel.
[45:41.700 --> 45:44.520]  It's about autonomous cars and the lost art of driving.
[45:44.760 --> 45:45.720]  You can get it on Amazon.
[45:46.220 --> 45:55.980]  And I explore, well, questions very close to this one and my other issues with Tesla and autopilot and all kinds of interesting speculation about the robotic future in there.
[45:56.120 --> 45:57.340]  So, yeah, buy the book.
[45:57.560 --> 45:57.840]  Awesome.
[45:58.020 --> 46:02.780]  And please keep writing stories like this and holding car manufacturers to account.
[46:03.340 --> 46:05.300]  And thank you again for being with us, Jason.
[46:05.380 --> 46:08.140]  Jason Torchinsky from Jalapnik.com.
[46:08.340 --> 46:16.500]  Story about Tesla basically taking something that doesn't belong to them anymore.
[46:17.000 --> 46:17.560]  Wow.
[46:17.800 --> 46:19.260]  That's how technology works.
[46:19.460 --> 46:21.120]  That's how it's being abused these days.
[46:21.560 --> 46:28.300]  And it's the lack of understanding and the willingness of the rest of us to go along with it.
[46:28.320 --> 46:29.820]  I think that's the biggest threat.
[46:30.820 --> 46:31.380]  Wow.
[46:31.700 --> 46:32.460]  You know what?
[46:32.460 --> 46:41.800]  We want to take some phone calls because I know a lot of listeners have received ballots in the mail about new bylaws that are taking place throughout Pacifica.
[46:42.240 --> 46:47.040]  While we can't say how you should vote, that's up to you.
[46:47.520 --> 46:50.940]  We can open up the phone lines and you can say whatever you wish.
[46:51.580 --> 46:57.020]  And you can certainly ask questions about anything that you think is relevant.
[46:57.900 --> 47:00.340]  212-209-2877.
[47:00.840 --> 47:02.640]  That's the number to call to be on the radio.
[47:02.940 --> 47:07.640]  And if you want to call to pledge support to the radio station and keep us going...
[47:07.640 --> 47:08.140]  Please do that.
[47:08.140 --> 47:10.880]  Yeah, 516-620-3602.
[47:10.960 --> 47:14.620]  Gilo is going to describe the amazing premium idea that we have.
[47:14.800 --> 47:15.060]  Yes.
[47:15.240 --> 47:24.440]  For a minimum pledge of $250, if you send us a screenshot of your receipt, email it to us at oth at 2600.com.
[47:24.440 --> 47:33.400]  We will gladly record for you a custom set of Waze instructions for your personal navigation device.
[47:35.320 --> 47:35.760]  Yes.
[47:36.080 --> 47:39.460]  So call 516-620-3602.
[47:39.580 --> 47:42.940]  Go online to give to WBAI.org.
[47:43.100 --> 47:47.260]  Put a check in the mail to 388 Atlantic Avenue, Brooklyn, New York, 11217.
[47:48.640 --> 47:50.480]  Or put some cash in an envelope.
[47:50.680 --> 47:51.260]  I don't even know.
[47:51.660 --> 47:53.500]  You can do that, but it's not advised.
[47:54.000 --> 47:54.300]  Yeah.
[47:54.400 --> 47:55.220]  Any amount, really.
[47:55.600 --> 48:03.540]  We would love to have a lot more of the WBAI buddies, people that are donating on a continual basis.
[48:03.600 --> 48:06.700]  That really allows us to count on your support.
[48:06.740 --> 48:08.240]  And you don't have to think about it.
[48:08.320 --> 48:09.440]  You don't have to be reminded.
[48:09.660 --> 48:17.060]  And we really, really would like to get as many phone calls and pledges of support as we can at the end of this hour.
[48:17.620 --> 48:19.500]  It goes towards our show.
[48:19.540 --> 48:23.480]  And we do want a strong show of support for Off the Hook.
[48:23.800 --> 48:29.600]  And really, it's just about getting those funds together so that we don't have to be doing this.
[48:29.820 --> 48:31.680]  This isn't why we're here.
[48:31.680 --> 48:33.060]  It is how we're here, though.
[48:33.640 --> 48:38.800]  And we'd love to continue to speak with everyone about technology and telephones.
[48:39.100 --> 48:45.560]  And your fundraising contributions, they go a long way toward that.
[48:45.740 --> 48:49.140]  And just to clarify, when you say it goes towards our show, we don't get the money.
[48:49.140 --> 48:52.980]  We get the recognition that we brought in, $250 pledges.
[48:53.080 --> 48:56.500]  And that's very important in making Off the Hook as relevant as possible.
[48:56.500 --> 48:56.860]  Exactly.
[48:57.060 --> 48:58.740]  That's an accounting system we use here.
[48:58.860 --> 49:01.640]  It's been that way for ages at WBAI.
[49:01.820 --> 49:12.900]  So, please, show a strong show of support for WBAI and also for Off the Hook by pledging any amount for this wonderful gift at the $250 level, I believe.
[49:13.040 --> 49:14.700]  But also, $25 helps.
[49:14.940 --> 49:15.180]  Absolutely.
[49:15.180 --> 49:18.040]  So, $99.5 helps.
[49:18.360 --> 49:21.360]  So, please, 516-620-3602.
[49:21.420 --> 49:29.280]  We should point out that the Waze Premium hinges on you having a device that you can use Waze on and knowing what that means and how to use it.
[49:29.320 --> 49:29.900]  Yeah, have a car.
[49:30.500 --> 49:31.620]  A car and a phone.
[49:31.780 --> 49:32.740]  You kind of need those two things.
[49:32.760 --> 49:34.760]  It's a customization for a device you already have.
[49:34.880 --> 49:37.040]  Or you can give it as a gift to somebody else.
[49:37.360 --> 49:37.780]  This is true.
[49:38.020 --> 49:39.040]  Also, I don't think we're going to...
[49:39.040 --> 49:42.420]  Like, you can tell us what to say, but I don't think we're going to say hate speech or things along that line.
[49:42.420 --> 49:42.620]  Well, no.
[49:42.760 --> 49:43.820]  That's not really our thing, but...
[49:43.820 --> 49:45.520]  Who would call BAI and ask...
[49:45.520 --> 49:46.080]  Okay, never mind.
[49:46.520 --> 49:47.760]  We have a caller on the line.
[49:47.840 --> 49:48.360]  Good evening, caller.
[49:48.480 --> 49:48.900]  You're on the air.
[49:50.200 --> 49:50.740]  Speak up.
[49:52.040 --> 49:52.320]  Hello?
[49:52.500 --> 49:53.180]  Yes, you're on the air.
[49:53.240 --> 49:53.500]  Go ahead.
[49:53.700 --> 49:54.240]  Oh, okay.
[49:54.340 --> 49:55.720]  No one told me that I was calling on.
[49:55.840 --> 49:56.180]  I'm sorry.
[49:56.180 --> 50:04.360]  Listen, I came in on the tail end of the discussion that you were talking about, the Tesla and the automation of the automobiles.
[50:04.520 --> 50:18.260]  I was wondering, did you guys touch upon the case of Michael Hastings, you know, the great reporter, freelance reporter, but did a lot of stories for various major publications there, formerly with Democracy Now!
[50:18.360 --> 50:28.460]  also, too, where he, one of his reports, he blew up the command of special ops over in Afghanistan, and he was really taking the task for it.
[50:29.500 --> 50:32.380]  The whole command structure went down there.
[50:32.720 --> 50:41.040]  He had that story about how they ridiculed the president and the vice president, Cheney and Bush, and so on, and what they actually felt.
[50:41.940 --> 50:44.680]  Later on, he talked to people that were close to him.
[50:44.740 --> 50:50.620]  He says, I have to go off the grid because I'm into something that's very heavy, and you're not going to hear from me for a while.
[50:50.620 --> 50:51.720]  I've got to stay off the grid.
[50:52.560 --> 50:54.400]  I'm a little bit, I'm a little bit scared.
[50:55.080 --> 51:10.220]  Two days later, his Mercedes-Benz, the latest model, was cruising down, I believe, the west side, and all of a sudden, the people that, there were three witnesses, they said the car just accelerated greatly and went straight into an abutment and a tree and a light post.
[51:11.240 --> 51:17.760]  He lost, you know, supposedly said, oh, he lost control of the car, but the people said he was just, your car was going down.
[51:17.900 --> 51:26.100]  All of a sudden, they just heard a zoom, and the car seemed to be going about 60, 70 miles an hour and heading straight for an abutment.
[51:26.320 --> 51:27.960]  And that was the end of Michael Hastings.
[51:28.240 --> 51:28.460]  Wow.
[51:29.100 --> 51:34.300]  Well, you know, that is something that certainly is possible.
[51:34.300 --> 51:37.560]  And certainly, it's not just relegated to episodes of 24.
[51:38.020 --> 51:45.240]  This is the kind of thing that you can do when you program a car remotely, when you have software modifications.
[51:45.840 --> 51:49.680]  Yeah, all kinds of bad actors can get involved and do horrible things like that.
[51:49.820 --> 51:55.660]  Yeah, I kept thinking while we were talking about Tesla that this is the same guy that is going to be selling us space capsules.
[51:55.920 --> 51:59.620]  Like, oops, turned off your gyro, and you don't know where you are.
[51:59.780 --> 52:01.280]  Or like, oh, sorry about your oxygen.
[52:01.640 --> 52:04.260]  You know, this is really, really critical stuff.
[52:04.480 --> 52:06.080]  We need this guy handling.
[52:06.520 --> 52:08.320]  Thanks a lot for your business model.
[52:08.500 --> 52:14.240]  I mean, I just, it's absolutely turning yourself into something that is remote control.
[52:14.520 --> 52:32.960]  And by that very virtue, and I think our author who is speaking, you're handing that relinquishing, I believe is a good word, relinquishing control to a system, a system that could be exploited, a system that could be used for ill ends, I guess.
[52:33.160 --> 52:34.280]  I don't know how else to describe it.
[52:34.360 --> 52:42.300]  I mean, what happens if you're a controversial person using one of these automated systems and the right price is put on your head?
[52:42.360 --> 52:43.920]  Yeah, I mean, that's a great point.
[52:44.080 --> 52:46.680]  Yeah, and it doesn't have to be the car manufacturer.
[52:46.700 --> 52:48.600]  It could be people that hack into it.
[52:48.640 --> 52:55.360]  It could be government people, very skilled individuals, anything is possible.
[52:55.420 --> 53:02.680]  It might sound paranoid, but when you realize, hey, it's actually possible, this could happen, that's when the landscape changes.
[53:02.940 --> 53:03.740]  Let's take another phone call.
[53:03.800 --> 53:04.080]  Good evening.
[53:04.220 --> 53:05.000]  You're on off the hook.
[53:05.080 --> 53:05.320]  Go ahead.
[53:06.880 --> 53:07.500]  Speak up.
[53:08.700 --> 53:10.360]  I don't think people realize they're on the air.
[53:10.880 --> 53:13.380]  If you're hearing my voice on the phone now, you're on the air.
[53:14.300 --> 53:14.740]  Okay.
[53:15.220 --> 53:16.240]  Well, no more.
[53:16.980 --> 53:21.760]  212-209-2877 is our phone number.
[53:21.860 --> 53:28.400]  We continue to have the problem where our phone calls bounce around the station, and it might be ringing someplace else, but it's not ringing here.
[53:28.640 --> 53:30.120]  So let's take this phone call.
[53:30.280 --> 53:30.660]  Good evening.
[53:30.860 --> 53:31.600]  You're on off the hook.
[53:31.680 --> 53:31.920]  Go ahead.
[53:33.360 --> 53:34.040]  Speak up.
[53:34.160 --> 53:34.360]  Hello?
[53:34.620 --> 53:34.840]  Yes.
[53:36.100 --> 53:38.160]  Yeah, you were speaking about the ballots.
[53:38.240 --> 53:40.900]  I was just wondering how many people actually got a ballot.
[53:41.060 --> 53:48.080]  I know I haven't received one, and I'm about to get a little, you know, jiggy about it, because this is a very important vote that's coming up.
[53:48.260 --> 53:51.640]  So perhaps when you, the other people that come on, can you audit them as well?
[53:51.940 --> 53:54.000]  Then I'll decide how to proceed with that.
[53:54.140 --> 53:56.280]  I'll probably go over to the station and find out what's going on.
[53:56.480 --> 53:56.660]  Yeah.
[53:56.820 --> 53:57.460]  Well, thanks so much.
[53:57.800 --> 53:58.120]  Thank you.
[53:58.260 --> 54:00.160]  I've received my ballot in email.
[54:00.360 --> 54:00.540]  Yeah.
[54:01.120 --> 54:03.180]  I think the form is email.
[54:03.400 --> 54:04.700]  It's an electronic system.
[54:05.040 --> 54:09.640]  I don't believe there's any sort of packet going out, but maybe someone can correct us.
[54:09.920 --> 54:10.040]  Yeah.
[54:10.060 --> 54:12.160]  I'm not sure if there's a paper version, too.
[54:12.220 --> 54:14.320]  I imagine there has to be, because... There must be some mechanism.
[54:14.380 --> 54:18.180]  Some people don't have email addresses, but I'd like to hear other people.
[54:18.320 --> 54:19.320]  Have you all gotten your ballots?
[54:19.860 --> 54:20.720]  I certainly have.
[54:20.720 --> 54:21.440]  You all have email addresses?
[54:21.520 --> 54:21.760]  Yes.
[54:22.000 --> 54:22.260]  All right.
[54:22.400 --> 54:24.760]  Yeah, I got some correspondence about it.
[54:24.880 --> 54:25.320]  All right.
[54:25.380 --> 54:26.040]  Let's take another phone call.
[54:26.060 --> 54:26.360]  Good evening.
[54:26.500 --> 54:27.200]  You're on off the hook.
[54:27.260 --> 54:27.500]  Go ahead.
[54:29.020 --> 54:29.360]  Hi.
[54:29.360 --> 54:31.400]  There are paper ballots.
[54:31.400 --> 54:31.900]  Oh, good.
[54:32.460 --> 54:41.120]  I think some of them are being sent out to people who had requested one before, but otherwise you have to request one specifically.
[54:41.160 --> 54:43.460]  I don't know a whole lot about that.
[54:43.620 --> 54:48.280]  This is a very important ballot to fill out, so that's all I'm going to say on the subject.
[54:48.760 --> 54:50.500]  I understand that.
[54:50.820 --> 54:56.880]  One of the interesting things about this particular thing is they've...
[54:59.440 --> 55:12.500]  the proposition they've put before everyone is to get six particular people elected, three of which have since declined the honor.
[55:14.540 --> 55:15.740]  Three of the six.
[55:16.100 --> 55:16.560]  Interesting.
[55:17.300 --> 55:19.280]  Well, that should tell you something right there.
[55:19.340 --> 55:22.160]  The other thing that I think people need to look at is just history.
[55:22.360 --> 55:26.420]  You know, whether it's looking at the history of WBAI or recent history.
[55:26.420 --> 55:34.540]  The things that have happened and who is behind what and who is behind good things, who is behind bad things.
[55:35.080 --> 55:37.160]  We all have different interpretations of that.
[55:37.380 --> 55:40.500]  So think about all that before you cast your vote.
[55:41.240 --> 55:41.480]  Hello.
[55:41.880 --> 55:42.200]  Yes.
[55:42.540 --> 55:53.140]  The people behind this new set of rules are the same people who came with guns and took over the station for a month.
[55:53.380 --> 55:56.260]  Well, I don't know if anybody came with guns, but yes, people did come...
[55:56.940 --> 55:59.780]  They had two armed security guards.
[55:59.900 --> 56:00.860]  Did they have armed security guards?
[56:00.940 --> 56:01.080]  Okay.
[56:01.180 --> 56:01.260]  Yeah.
[56:01.360 --> 56:02.200]  I guess you're right.
[56:02.400 --> 56:04.160]  Some kind of private security with them.
[56:04.260 --> 56:04.780]  It just...
[56:04.780 --> 56:07.920]  It sounds like we got stormed by, you know, the National Guard or something.
[56:08.020 --> 56:08.640]  But okay, yeah.
[56:08.640 --> 56:10.580]  For a peaceful place like this, it's a little bit...
[56:10.580 --> 56:11.200]  It's traumatic.
[56:11.200 --> 56:12.080]  It absolutely is.
[56:12.200 --> 56:12.320]  It's a lot.
[56:12.460 --> 56:16.620]  And it was traumatic for us, too, to be off the air for a month while all this got sorted out.
[56:16.680 --> 56:17.640]  But we're back.
[56:17.640 --> 56:19.400]  We have our brand new studio here.
[56:19.400 --> 56:21.980]  We have a lot of good people doing a lot of good work.
[56:22.660 --> 56:27.700]  And I would hope that whatever decision you make when you vote, you vote to preserve that.
[56:27.760 --> 56:30.560]  And you think about what would do that best.
[56:30.800 --> 56:31.600]  Thank you for your call.
[56:31.720 --> 56:33.160]  Let's see if we can get one more on.
[56:33.260 --> 56:33.580]  Good evening.
[56:33.740 --> 56:34.780]  You're on off the hook.
[56:36.220 --> 56:44.600]  Yeah, just to echo the latest lady there, your person who was on the air at the time was announcing, actually, they're here and they're with the armed guards.
[56:44.820 --> 56:46.340]  So, yeah, it actually happened.
[56:46.720 --> 56:48.040]  When are the ballots going out?
[56:49.480 --> 56:55.980]  Well, like we said, we received our electronic ones, so you should be receiving yours soon if you haven't already.
[56:56.620 --> 56:57.860]  The paper ones, I'm not...
[56:57.860 --> 56:58.520]  I'm completely off the grid.
[56:58.660 --> 57:00.100]  Okay, so you're getting a paper ballot.
[57:00.560 --> 57:02.180]  They have your address, I take it.
[57:02.640 --> 57:03.740]  Yeah, I hope so.
[57:03.740 --> 57:05.040]  Oh, I give them hundreds of dollars a year.
[57:05.220 --> 57:05.420]  Okay.
[57:05.740 --> 57:08.540]  Well, then, I would check in the next week.
[57:08.540 --> 57:14.840]  If you don't have anything in the next week, then definitely raise a ruckus and we'll make sure that gets resolved.
[57:16.860 --> 57:17.260]  Okay.
[57:17.320 --> 57:18.900]  I guess that's the best thing to do.
[57:19.440 --> 57:21.220]  Yeah, well, thanks so much for your support.
[57:21.660 --> 57:23.000]  And please...
[57:23.000 --> 57:24.460]  Yeah, well, thank you guys for what you do.
[57:24.620 --> 57:27.420]  Most people don't know that most of you guys are not paid.
[57:27.640 --> 57:28.080]  That's right.
[57:28.260 --> 57:28.680]  That's right.
[57:28.860 --> 57:30.820]  Most of you guys do this on your own.
[57:30.960 --> 57:32.840]  Many of us shell out money to do this.
[57:33.540 --> 57:36.420]  You've been on way too long for it to be an ego trip.
[57:36.540 --> 57:38.760]  Some people say, oh, people, they're on an ego trip.
[57:39.040 --> 57:44.040]  You listen to these guys, you know, they're a mile long, a half an inch deep in knowledge and so on and so forth.
[57:44.160 --> 57:45.300]  They just like to listen to them.
[57:45.360 --> 57:45.860]  I don't know.
[57:46.100 --> 57:48.200]  That's because they don't listen to the information.
[57:48.600 --> 57:49.580]  They can be checked.
[57:49.780 --> 57:50.860]  They don't have to take it.
[57:51.060 --> 57:54.580]  You do have some people that get a little bit too flamboyant, a little bit too liberal.
[57:55.020 --> 57:56.220]  You know, they stretch some things out.
[57:56.220 --> 57:59.580]  But for the most part, people are there because they're dedicated.
[57:59.580 --> 58:04.640]  They're regular people that are interested in the welfare of every individual in this country.
[58:04.800 --> 58:06.160]  And thank God for you guys.
[58:06.460 --> 58:06.740]  Wow.
[58:06.920 --> 58:07.460]  Thank you.
[58:07.460 --> 58:08.880]  Thank you so much for those words.
[58:09.120 --> 58:10.720]  Very well put.
[58:11.160 --> 58:15.860]  And that guy needs to be our PR spokesman because I couldn't have put it better myself.
[58:16.180 --> 58:23.180]  And that just goes for so many people here that show such dedication over the weeks, months, years, decades.
[58:23.580 --> 58:29.880]  Talking of PR and spokesman, if you're a listener to BAI, tell a friend, tell people around you that we are still here.
[58:29.980 --> 58:35.640]  We are still broadcasting because nothing gets the word out like actually getting the literal word out.
[58:36.340 --> 58:41.240]  And please make that phone call, 516-620-3602, pledge at $250.
[58:41.400 --> 58:46.900]  We will record your Waze prompts for you and make your drive something you will never forget.
[58:47.660 --> 58:50.780]  That's for a pledge at $250, but any pledge is welcomed.
[58:51.060 --> 58:52.620]  Yeah, and we'll do it for your spaceship too.
[58:52.860 --> 58:53.820]  Yeah, absolutely.
[58:54.420 --> 58:55.320]  You think we're kidding.
[58:55.340 --> 58:55.740]  We're not.
[58:56.200 --> 58:56.740]  All right.
[58:56.880 --> 58:57.840]  We're not on next week.
[58:57.940 --> 58:59.100]  We'll be back in two weeks.
[58:59.240 --> 59:01.500]  Write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[59:01.660 --> 59:03.060]  Tweet us, Hacker Radio Show.
[59:04.060 --> 59:05.320]  We'll see you in the future.
[59:05.320 --> 59:05.660]  Good night.