[00:00.000 --> 00:05.860]  This is your listener-sponsored community radio station, WBAI New York, 99.5 FM.
[00:06.020 --> 00:09.120]  Now stay tuned for Off the Hook, coming up.
[00:36.070 --> 00:40.410]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:41.210 --> 00:43.950]  It's 7 o'clock time, once again, for Off the Hook.
[01:10.510 --> 01:11.470]  And a
[01:20.270 --> 02:12.410]  very good evening to everybody.
[02:12.470 --> 02:14.930]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:14.930 --> 02:18.110]  Emanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:18.850 --> 02:20.470]  Joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:20.950 --> 02:22.030]  Yes, hi, I'm here.
[02:22.430 --> 02:26.310]  And I just walked into the quote-unquote studio here.
[02:26.670 --> 02:27.990]  So I have no idea what's going on.
[02:28.270 --> 02:29.770]  I'll explain why that is in a second.
[02:31.210 --> 02:33.150]  But who's joining us and where are they?
[02:33.370 --> 02:37.510]  Oh, well, we're also joined tonight by Rob.
[02:37.850 --> 02:38.590]  I don't see him.
[02:38.730 --> 02:39.970]  What, is it that Skype thing?
[02:39.990 --> 02:42.450]  Oh, he's coming in over the, yeah, over the virtual line.
[02:42.570 --> 02:42.890]  Skype.
[02:43.150 --> 02:43.890]  Invoke Skype.
[02:44.110 --> 02:44.730]  Is he there?
[02:44.930 --> 02:45.570]  Good evening.
[02:45.750 --> 02:46.090]  Oh, there you go.
[02:46.150 --> 02:46.990]  Okay, good, good, good.
[02:47.110 --> 02:47.810]  Rob, how are you doing?
[02:49.210 --> 02:50.170]  Very well, thanks.
[02:50.210 --> 02:50.850]  How are you guys?
[02:51.690 --> 02:53.350]  Oh, you don't want to ask that question.
[02:53.830 --> 02:55.270]  Who else is here, Kyle?
[02:55.470 --> 02:56.470]  I can't see anything.
[02:56.490 --> 03:00.750]  We're also going to have Gia on the show.
[03:00.950 --> 03:01.190]  Okay.
[03:01.370 --> 03:02.450]  Gia, how are you doing?
[03:03.110 --> 03:03.610]  I'm good.
[03:03.610 --> 03:04.310]  How are you, Emanuel?
[03:04.910 --> 03:06.430]  Oh, everyone keeps asking that.
[03:07.030 --> 03:08.450]  It's been something else.
[03:08.450 --> 03:09.150]  It really has.
[03:09.150 --> 03:14.830]  You know, we have a conference coming up in just a couple of weeks, and yeah, it's something else.
[03:14.970 --> 03:15.610]  Oh, my goodness.
[03:16.450 --> 03:17.730]  Yeah, we'll talk about this.
[03:17.810 --> 03:19.590]  We'll talk about this a little bit coming up.
[03:19.850 --> 03:20.830]  Is that everybody, Kyle?
[03:21.010 --> 03:21.870]  Any more special?
[03:21.870 --> 03:22.490]  Oh, no, no, no.
[03:22.590 --> 03:25.670]  No, we cannot forget, Alex is also here.
[03:25.790 --> 03:26.670]  It's like the Wizard of Oz.
[03:26.790 --> 03:27.230]  They just keep coming.
[03:28.090 --> 03:29.130]  Alex, you're here, too.
[03:30.090 --> 03:30.990]  I am indeed.
[03:31.390 --> 03:31.450]  Wow.
[03:31.970 --> 03:32.290]  Absolutely.
[03:33.770 --> 03:34.090]  Welcome.
[03:35.150 --> 03:35.590]  Thank you.
[03:35.630 --> 03:36.630]  How are you doing tonight, Emanuel?
[03:36.670 --> 03:37.290]  Oh, my God.
[03:37.410 --> 03:38.830]  Why is everybody asking me that question?
[03:40.090 --> 03:40.970]  I'm frenzied, all right?
[03:40.970 --> 03:44.350]  If that doesn't show, I'm out of my head.
[03:45.230 --> 03:48.830]  But let me ask you first, because we'll get into what's in my head in a few minutes.
[03:48.970 --> 03:50.430]  But, Alex, how are you?
[03:50.450 --> 03:51.670]  Are you still holed up in that cabin?
[03:52.290 --> 03:53.150]  I am indeed.
[03:53.450 --> 03:56.330]  Yeah, I'm doing pretty well, actually, all things considered, all right?
[03:56.590 --> 03:58.070]  It's been like, what, 20 years now?
[03:58.550 --> 03:58.950]  What's...
[03:59.770 --> 04:02.370]  Are we going to see society again, or...?
[04:02.370 --> 04:06.690]  Well, if you were to look at your monitor, you'd see that I haven't shaved in about three months.
[04:06.890 --> 04:08.430]  So, you know, I could...
[04:08.430 --> 04:15.110]  If this law thing doesn't work out, I may be able to read the Koran on YouTube videos and make some money or something like that, so...
[04:15.110 --> 04:15.570]  Wow.
[04:15.970 --> 04:16.370]  Okay.
[04:16.530 --> 04:18.430]  Well, that's something to consider.
[04:19.030 --> 04:24.770]  So, yeah, here we are on another Wednesday evening.
[04:24.930 --> 04:32.510]  We weren't on last week, unfortunately, and we weren't told we weren't on last week until after the show.
[04:32.610 --> 04:34.130]  It's very confusing for our listeners.
[04:34.130 --> 04:34.610]  I know.
[04:34.610 --> 04:35.590]  I apologize for that.
[04:35.790 --> 04:40.130]  This fun drive is not ending, and apparently we're not on again next week.
[04:40.190 --> 04:42.490]  It makes it almost impossible for us to communicate effectively.
[04:42.510 --> 04:54.730]  So let's try and get as much packed into this hour as we possibly can, because we have a conference coming up at the end of July, July 25th through August the 2nd.
[04:55.310 --> 04:59.970]  And I got to say, a lot has happened since we've been on the air last.
[05:00.150 --> 05:04.510]  The deadline has come and gone for submitting speaker applications.
[05:05.750 --> 05:15.490]  A bunch of us, Rob and Alex and myself, were on the speaker committee, and I've never seen anything like that.
[05:15.490 --> 05:23.030]  I've never seen such an outpouring of really, really amazing, fantastic speaker submissions.
[05:23.790 --> 05:39.230]  In the two days before the deadline, I think we got about 100 separate talks that we had to go through and make some very tough decisions, because there were so many good talks that we just didn't have room for.
[05:39.230 --> 05:40.410]  You might say it's a virtual conference.
[05:40.410 --> 05:41.350]  How can you not have room?
[05:41.530 --> 05:44.750]  It's a question of how much can we possibly coordinate?
[05:44.750 --> 05:52.330]  How much can we possibly have people spend nine days making sure, go off without a hitch?
[05:53.050 --> 05:54.130]  We've never done this before.
[05:54.250 --> 05:55.530]  We've never done a conference like this.
[05:55.670 --> 06:01.250]  We were planning on having a three-day conference, a conference at the end of July, July 31st to August 2nd.
[06:03.350 --> 06:11.890]  And when the COVID-19 crisis hit us, instead of just canceling the whole thing, we decided to try and build something different.
[06:11.890 --> 06:17.910]  Sort of like the hacker spirit takes you away in that regard sometimes.
[06:18.110 --> 06:23.950]  So we tripled the amount of time from three days to nine days and decided to make it a global event.
[06:24.070 --> 06:26.050]  And boy, has this turned into a global event.
[06:26.130 --> 06:27.110]  We have talks from China.
[06:27.230 --> 06:33.350]  We have talks from Singapore, talks from Hong Kong, talks from Japan, all over Europe, South America, Central America.
[06:34.650 --> 06:36.190]  It's really incredible.
[06:36.190 --> 06:38.410]  And of course, there are some from here, too.
[06:40.010 --> 06:46.430]  Now, you guys, what were your impressions of just that frenzy that we went through?
[06:48.390 --> 06:51.970]  My impressions were, like, I've done this for a number of times.
[06:51.970 --> 06:54.790]  I've been on speaker committee for quite a while with Hope Conferences.
[06:55.190 --> 07:02.430]  And this was, as you said, it was like nothing before, just the flood of such quality material.
[07:02.990 --> 07:11.850]  Um, this is, this is, this is one of those situations where, like, if you submitted and you did not get accepted, it does not mean that your talk was not good.
[07:12.130 --> 07:14.010]  It just, it's gotten down to space.
[07:14.170 --> 07:16.730]  It's gotten down to how much we could, we could actually fit it to the schedule.
[07:17.310 --> 07:24.510]  Um, and it was just, I was blown away by the sheer variety and the interesting, uh, like, takes on things and things I would never have thought of in a million years.
[07:24.650 --> 07:33.950]  But, like, the, the, uh, the people who submit talks to these, uh, to these conferences come from all walks of life, all, all trades, all hobbies, all levels.
[07:34.190 --> 07:38.950]  And it's, it's really an amazing amount of just diversity of, of, of thought.
[07:39.190 --> 07:44.110]  And, uh, and, uh, and yeah, I, I am really excited for it.
[07:44.630 --> 07:47.130]  Yeah, it's, like I said, it's something we've never done before.
[07:47.450 --> 07:53.170]  It's, uh, uh, a new format, a new, uh, range of challenges.
[07:53.750 --> 07:55.250]  Uh, but I'm looking forward to it.
[07:55.310 --> 07:56.250]  I'm looking forward to it as well.
[07:56.490 --> 07:59.030]  It's, uh, it's definitely going to be something, um, unbelievable.
[07:59.310 --> 08:05.830]  We're going to go into a few of the, um, um, the, um, talks, keynotes that we have, uh, to announce.
[08:06.050 --> 08:08.770]  We're going to be announcing our final two keynotes tomorrow.
[08:09.330 --> 08:11.790]  So, uh, we won't be saying anything about that.
[08:11.790 --> 08:24.630]  And if you want to find out who they are, keep watching hope.net or, uh, look at the 2600, uh, Twitter feed or the, uh, the hope conf Twitter feed or the hope.net webpage, or, or just walk around the street.
[08:24.750 --> 08:25.850]  I'm sure people will be talking about it.
[08:26.010 --> 08:41.090]  Um, we have four we'll talk about tonight and we have a bunch of talks, but Kyle, I wanted to, uh, bring you in for a moment because you've been, uh, going nuts as well on a whole different level, uh, as far as just arranging, helping to arrange some of the technical,
[08:41.090 --> 08:49.470]  um, uh, connections we're going to be having, uh, with, uh, the broadcast and with the interaction with attendees.
[08:49.870 --> 08:52.610]  Uh, it's, it's really something unprecedented.
[08:53.730 --> 08:54.290]  Yeah.
[08:54.510 --> 08:54.570]  Yeah.
[08:54.710 --> 09:11.390]  There's so much coordination going on actually, uh, most, most of which without me, which I'm, I'm happy for since so many of, um, our volunteers and teams from the conference that that we're planning really for the, the physical event are, are on board and,
[09:11.390 --> 09:28.170]  and really helping out, um, and communicating, uh, amongst one another, getting, uh, various resources into the right hands and making sure that we've tested everything, which is kind of, kind of tricky and, and making it all work together.
[09:28.170 --> 09:42.630]  I think it's going to be, um, it's going to be really crucial, but a lot of the things that we tried out, um, like our scheduling system and some of the visuals and graphics that a lot of that has fallen in place and that's kind of important to help tie things together.
[09:42.950 --> 09:56.290]  And, and, uh, I'm kind of excited the, the, the theme and, uh, other visual elements will hopefully make it, uh, some, somewhat interesting and, and, um, more than, uh, what people might expect from.
[09:56.430 --> 10:00.490]  Well, I'll tell you, it's, uh, we have an influx of volunteers like I've never seen before.
[10:00.490 --> 10:06.070]  We always have so many people that put together hope conferences, uh, but, uh, to, to do it in a virtual sense.
[10:06.570 --> 10:07.170]  I'm not sure.
[10:07.250 --> 10:10.430]  Maybe that opens up the door to more people because you don't actually have to be here.
[10:10.490 --> 10:12.010]  You don't have to come to New York.
[10:12.230 --> 10:13.950]  You can participate from anywhere in the world.
[10:14.010 --> 10:24.830]  And that's turning into a real advantage because we have people in all different time zones, uh, where it's convenient for them to be up at certain times, uh, watching and monitoring certain things and also giving talks.
[10:24.990 --> 10:26.410]  Now, some of the talks will be prerecorded.
[10:26.470 --> 10:27.490]  Some of the talks will be live.
[10:27.650 --> 10:31.830]  Uh, it's going to be kind of like watching a TV station for nine days.
[10:31.850 --> 10:35.690]  You'll be able to see this on all different platforms and we'll get into that as it gets a little closer.
[10:35.830 --> 10:40.150]  I don't want to, I don't want to say too much now because we're still working out a number of, of issues.
[10:40.610 --> 10:42.430]  Uh, we, we will get it worked out.
[10:42.570 --> 10:47.070]  We will figure everything out the best way to do it so that everybody can, um, uh, can access the material.
[10:47.390 --> 10:51.710]  Uh, but it's, um, it's been, it's been one hell of a ride so far.
[10:51.990 --> 10:55.470]  I, you know, a couple of months ago, I was convinced we were done.
[10:55.470 --> 11:02.530]  We were going out of business and on all levels because, um, we couldn't get our magazine into stores because the stores weren't open.
[11:02.710 --> 11:06.830]  Uh, we couldn't run a conference, which we depend upon to survive.
[11:07.110 --> 11:18.030]  Uh, and, um, of course it all paled in comparison to the crisis going on outside in the street that was affecting everybody in the country and still is to this day.
[11:18.230 --> 11:19.990]  Uh, in fact, in the world.
[11:20.150 --> 11:24.910]  Uh, so our, our, our troubles, they paled in comparison to what was really going on.
[11:24.970 --> 11:26.810]  But what has happened in the past couple of weeks?
[11:30.130 --> 11:32.610]  I've been, and, and, and hacker spirit and ingenuity.
[11:33.130 --> 11:48.850]  And that is the kind of thing, you know, sometimes you forget that's there, but it takes a crisis like this for you to realize, wow, we can really, we can really, uh, uh, put our efforts and our skills and, and, and our, our, uh, our basic, um, imagination together and,
[11:48.850 --> 11:50.690]  and do things like we've never done before.
[11:50.910 --> 11:53.930]  So I'm, yeah, really looking forward to it.
[11:54.010 --> 11:58.110]  I'm, I'm scared, I'm petrified, but I'm also really anticipating it.
[11:58.110 --> 11:58.570]  Yeah.
[11:58.670 --> 12:16.230]  It's a weird combination of like running a TV station and controlling all sorts of computer and, uh, making sure things are accessible and usable and, and, uh, and then, uh, organizing all of these con the content and, and then, uh, tying it together with some artistic values and so forth.
[12:16.310 --> 12:27.250]  But it's, it's all, uh, there's a lot to do, but it's all coming together into something that, like you said, we hadn't really imagined would be possible at all, or that we, we could put together.
[12:27.710 --> 12:33.590]  And, um, it's, it's pretty, pretty astounding to, to see, uh, uh, as it's, as it's evolving here.
[12:34.270 --> 12:37.770]  If you think that's astounding, wait till you see the kinds of talks that we have.
[12:37.890 --> 12:45.270]  Some of them are already, um, online, uh, as far as the summations and, and, uh, the biographies of the people that are, uh, uh, putting them on.
[12:45.370 --> 12:51.470]  But it's only a fraction because I've been working on, on getting it into a cohesive format over the past few days.
[12:51.730 --> 12:53.290]  My eyes are falling out of my head.
[12:53.370 --> 12:55.090]  There's just so much content, so much material.
[12:55.690 --> 12:56.970]  And, uh, those are just the talks.
[12:57.030 --> 13:05.510]  We also have a whole lot of workshops as well, but boy, they, they are, they are some of the most, uh, incredible, um, um, uh, speakers, uh, such backgrounds.
[13:06.050 --> 13:13.990]  Uh, the, the material we have from the electronic frontier foundation alone is, is simply mind boggling, but we have so much more, so much more.
[13:14.090 --> 13:20.790]  And it's all going to be posted on the hope.net, uh, website over the next couple of days and, and couple of weeks as we finalize things.
[13:21.850 --> 13:25.910]  Um, guys, uh, on Skype land, any, any, um, anything you want to share?
[13:26.830 --> 13:27.270]  Yeah.
[13:27.510 --> 13:32.310]  I mean, I, I think everything you said is, is absolutely right, Emmanuel.
[13:32.590 --> 13:37.070]  And, um, I was just, you know, overwhelmed by the last couple of days.
[13:37.070 --> 13:44.230]  It was a gigantic amount of work to review all of those and, and assess them and, and very, very tough to grade them.
[13:44.550 --> 14:11.310]  Um, and, and the fact that we're doing this for nine days and we have those nine days filled with quality talks really is, is something else because that indicates to me and I, and I, and hopefully to everybody else that hope being here this year is a really positive outlet for the hacker community because a lot of people submitted a lot of amazing talks,
[14:11.330 --> 14:14.490]  which means that a great deal of people have something to say.
[14:14.670 --> 14:22.170]  And there are, I, I would say, uh, you know, a very good handful of talks of focus on coronavirus related issues too.
[14:22.430 --> 14:25.290]  So there's, there's going to be things that are, that are really topical.
[14:25.510 --> 14:30.290]  Um, and I also want to say, you know, I think the keynotes that we have are, are pretty amazing.
[14:30.970 --> 14:37.390]  And, uh, and I'm really looking forward to, and I'll build some anticipation, uh, announcing the final two tomorrow.
[14:38.390 --> 14:41.930]  I, I guess we should probably talk about the four that we announced yesterday.
[14:42.570 --> 14:48.470]  Uh, we, uh, we, we, we have so many incredible people from such, uh, interesting backgrounds.
[14:48.690 --> 14:50.730]  Uh, I, I want to see these talks now.
[14:50.890 --> 15:01.270]  I don't want to wait, uh, but, um, we're going to have to, um, so in addition to, uh, uh, what we've already announced, and we're not going to, uh, keep saying the same things.
[15:01.350 --> 15:02.470]  We're going to, we have so much new material.
[15:02.770 --> 15:13.070]  Uh, we have, we have, um, some, some new people to, uh, to, uh, to welcome into the hope fold, uh, Ilin Bobbe, uh, the founder of techactivist.org.
[15:13.230 --> 15:25.070]  That's a, a grassroots organization providing free technical training, political education workshops, uh, to working class youth activists and, uh, disruptors interested in using technology for social good.
[15:25.210 --> 15:27.950]  Sounds, sounds like where we come from every single week.
[15:28.410 --> 15:33.390]  And, uh, she is going to be giving one of our nine keynotes to her tech literacy programs.
[15:33.590 --> 15:43.710]  Uh, she provides hands-on workshops, introducing communities to digital media tools, digital security, open source web development, emerging technology, things like 3d printing.
[15:44.330 --> 15:46.630]  So that's, that's one of our keynotes.
[15:46.690 --> 15:49.890]  And we're, we've simply honored blown away that, uh, she'll be a part of this.
[15:49.990 --> 15:50.830]  Tiffany rad.
[15:51.130 --> 15:59.030]  Tiffany rad has been on the, um, uh, the program before she's been at hope before, uh, and she's big in the, uh, right to repair movement.
[15:59.450 --> 16:04.390]  Uh, she, uh, is the, um, CEO founder of, uh, Anatrope Inc.
[16:04.670 --> 16:10.130]  They develop wireless automobile technologies for security and data analytics industries.
[16:10.370 --> 16:15.610]  And, uh, she's also an adjunct in the computer science department at university of Maine's Portland campus.
[16:15.950 --> 16:20.570]  Uh, she was a manager of operational security for vehicle embedded systems at Cisco.
[16:20.930 --> 16:27.790]  And, uh, it's, um, really amazing, uh, the things that she has to share and, and, uh, and talk to us about.
[16:28.570 --> 16:33.050]  Um, and, um, I'm sorry, did I say four?
[16:33.150 --> 16:33.890]  I meant to say three.
[16:34.070 --> 16:35.110]  We, we announced four.
[16:35.290 --> 16:39.110]  Then we announced three yesterday and we're going to announce two tomorrow.
[16:39.270 --> 16:39.390]  Yeah.
[16:39.610 --> 16:41.250]  I'm a little, okay.
[16:41.990 --> 16:43.650]  I, I easily to lose track of these things.
[16:43.750 --> 16:47.350]  And then of course we have, uh, uh, you're some of it Milner.
[16:47.590 --> 16:52.050]  She's the founder and executive director of data for black lives, data for black lives.
[16:52.670 --> 16:53.390]  They're awesome.
[16:53.990 --> 16:57.990]  She's been working at, uh, at, at things like this since she was 17.
[16:58.570 --> 17:02.910]  Uh, she's been a movement builder, a technologist, data scientist, and all sorts of campaigns.
[17:02.930 --> 17:14.350]  And she started data for black lives because for too long, she straddled the worlds of data and organizing and was determined to break down the silos to harness the power of data to make change in the lives of black people.
[17:15.750 --> 17:16.510]  It's awesome.
[17:16.610 --> 17:24.990]  It's just incredible that we have speakers of this, uh, uh, of this quality, um, speaking to us at a hacker conference.
[17:25.090 --> 17:26.750]  I am so looking forward to this.
[17:26.930 --> 17:32.190]  Those are three of our nine keynotes and we'll announce two more tomorrow.
[17:35.190 --> 17:41.150]  It's really, it's really amazing to me that, uh, we have, uh, such like nine keynotes.
[17:41.230 --> 17:43.330]  First of all, I've been coming to hope for 20 years now.
[17:43.410 --> 17:52.950]  My first one was in 2000 and I've been to conferences where we had one keynote, uh, maybe, maybe two or three keynotes or keynote type things, relatively high profile, uh, speakers.
[17:53.290 --> 18:07.990]  But the fact that we've got so many awesome people to share like keynote level stuff with the, with the hope conference goers, I mean, and these, these, just these names that we've gotten, I mean, as you were saying, Tiffany Rad, uh, is, has been on this program.
[18:08.190 --> 18:18.470]  She's presented at many hopes, um, about right to repair stuff, car hacking, um, wonderful things, things that, uh, she definitely has the, uh, bonafides and the chops to present on.
[18:18.730 --> 18:23.990]  And, uh, you know, that, that the issues that she's spoken about for, for years are more important than ever.
[18:24.370 --> 18:37.210]  And, uh, that's just, that's just one of these, uh, keynotes because like, it's just, um, it's amazing to me that, um, like we can, we can depend on the hope community for, for, I mean, the keynotes are awesome.
[18:37.470 --> 18:40.130]  The, the talks that we've got going on are also awesome.
[18:40.250 --> 18:46.010]  I'm really excited about, uh, announcing the, the last two tomorrow and, uh, I, I can't wait to see these.
[18:46.870 --> 18:47.990]  Well, you're going to have to wait, Rob.
[18:48.210 --> 18:49.050]  We're all going to have to wait.
[18:49.170 --> 19:00.770]  That's, that's the one bad thing about this, but, uh, it's, it's, it's simply, um, so incredible, um, that, um, there has been this, I, I think people really needed this conference this year.
[19:00.870 --> 19:09.590]  I didn't realize that there are, I think a couple of months where we're just sort of stunned and not really doing much of anything because we didn't know what the future held.
[19:09.990 --> 19:12.950]  And like I said, I, I was convinced it was, it was over.
[19:13.110 --> 19:22.650]  I was just trying to, uh, uh, survive and, and, and help other people as much as possible and just, uh, make it to this next saga in, in mankind's history.
[19:23.010 --> 19:31.390]  Um, but then suggestions were made, people came forth and, and most of all, what we saw was tremendous support from the community.
[19:31.790 --> 19:38.170]  I cannot stress this enough that the people who held onto their tickets and said, you guys can, can do this.
[19:38.730 --> 19:40.270]  You can make something happen.
[19:40.630 --> 19:41.990]  Either way, we support you.
[19:42.090 --> 19:43.070]  We want you to stick around.
[19:43.250 --> 19:44.330]  That is what made all the difference.
[19:44.470 --> 19:48.690]  That is what inspired us to keep going and to make this event happen.
[19:49.390 --> 19:54.730]  And I, I, I have to say, um, forever, forever, we will be in your debt.
[19:54.850 --> 20:08.450]  And, um, I've already made the pledge that those people who have, um, uh, um, held onto those tickets and will be attendees at this conference in, in a virtual world, um, you will forever be on the list of preferred people.
[20:08.850 --> 20:18.190]  So that means when, when another conference comes along and we introduce the super discounted price, you're the ones that are going to find out about that because you were there for us and we will be there for you.
[20:18.450 --> 20:19.190]  We promise.
[20:20.550 --> 20:25.550]  Um, we're working out details as far as, uh, people who hold tickets, how they will be notified.
[20:25.850 --> 20:27.510]  Don't worry if you haven't been notified yet.
[20:27.670 --> 20:33.430]  Uh, in fact, you shouldn't have been notified yet because we haven't sent out, uh, that information, but you will get that information.
[20:33.610 --> 20:39.490]  If your email address has changed since you ordered your tickets, uh, let us know that and, and, and we'll sort that out.
[20:39.790 --> 20:41.890]  And, uh, and you can still get tickets too.
[20:41.970 --> 20:44.610]  The people are actually, uh, getting tickets, which is amazing as well.
[20:45.330 --> 20:54.350]  Um, people are asking about, um, uh, recordings of the talks and yes, we will make them available so that, uh, they're, they're online as quickly as possible.
[20:55.150 --> 21:00.770]  Um, nobody will feel like they didn't get something of tremendous value.
[21:00.910 --> 21:02.370]  That is, that is my pledge.
[21:03.030 --> 21:06.510]  Um, and I, uh, you know, we are going to make mistakes.
[21:06.610 --> 21:13.270]  We are going to, uh, do things wrong because we've never done this before, but, um, we will try not to make the same mistake twice.
[21:13.270 --> 21:13.990]  How about that?
[21:14.070 --> 21:16.050]  And, uh, we have nine days to get it right.
[21:16.170 --> 21:21.550]  And I think we will, and we're going to have some, some really incredible, uh, history to remember forever.
[21:25.490 --> 21:25.850]  Yeah.
[21:26.170 --> 21:31.650]  I, um, you know, one of the things that I'm concerned about, Emmanuel, is just keeping up the pace for nine days.
[21:31.790 --> 21:34.550]  This is going to be such an awesome conference.
[21:35.110 --> 21:42.070]  Um, we are generally exhausted and you and Kyle doubly so at the end of a three day conference.
[21:42.410 --> 21:49.290]  How do you plan on keeping this momentum and your energy and sanity for a period of nine days?
[21:49.370 --> 21:49.470]  Yeah.
[21:49.550 --> 21:51.630]  Look at the state I'm in now before it even begins.
[21:51.930 --> 21:54.130]  You know, we, we have, we have about three weeks left.
[21:54.870 --> 21:55.650]  I'm not doing well.
[21:55.810 --> 21:58.590]  I'm, I'm not, I, I'm up all the time.
[21:58.830 --> 22:12.570]  I've just been, my eyes are falling out of my head, but I, it's a weird kind of good feeling in that too, because when you see people engaged, when you see a hundred talks come in in two days, uh, when, when you see the, the quality level of the people who want to participate,
[22:13.190 --> 22:15.470]  you know, that something really, really good is happening.
[22:15.950 --> 22:25.930]  And I think I know how the people who organized Woodstock in a month felt, uh, they couldn't do anything else ever again, but, but boy, that was something for that one period.
[22:25.930 --> 22:30.650]  And I, I think we're really going to have some, some amazing, amazing things to remember and to share.
[22:31.690 --> 22:41.470]  Speaking, speaking of, of, uh, Woodstock, by the way, do you recall the year of the second Woodstock and specifically when that occurred?
[22:41.650 --> 22:52.090]  Well, uh, it's a trick question, uh, Alex, and I'm not going to fall for it because the second Woodstock actually took place out in Paramedos on Long Island, uh, 10 years afterwards, 1987.
[22:53.110 --> 23:02.290]  Um, and, uh, I know because I was there and very few other people were, but, uh, the one you're probably referring to is the anniversary that took place during the first hope.
[23:02.710 --> 23:11.830]  I know because we were at that conference and we were reading the New York times and they had a, they had a story about that on, on Sunday and it was raining.
[23:12.050 --> 23:12.530]  It was muddy.
[23:12.650 --> 23:14.690]  People were miserable and we were happy.
[23:14.870 --> 23:19.150]  We were happy because we had just finished our first ever hope conference in 1994.
[23:19.970 --> 23:21.810]  And, um, it felt great.
[23:21.950 --> 23:24.950]  Felt great then and it'll feel great later on.
[23:26.170 --> 23:26.610]  Yes.
[23:26.710 --> 23:27.650]  Was that, was that right by the way?
[23:27.730 --> 23:28.470]  That was what you were thinking.
[23:28.890 --> 23:30.410]  Yeah, that is, that is correct.
[23:30.570 --> 23:34.930]  Actually, I had no idea about the, the Long Island, um, Woodstock.
[23:35.290 --> 23:35.590]  Yeah, nobody does.
[23:35.710 --> 23:36.570]  Nobody knew then.
[23:36.710 --> 23:37.310]  Nobody knows now.
[23:37.530 --> 23:38.230]  That's, that was the problem.
[23:38.930 --> 23:39.150]  Yeah.
[23:39.690 --> 23:40.090]  Fantastic.
[23:40.690 --> 23:43.590]  And nobody knows where Paramedos is either, but it was there.
[23:43.730 --> 23:44.330]  I remember.
[23:45.210 --> 23:50.970]  Um, so anyway, um, any other announcements, proclamations, uh, updates that, that people want to share?
[23:52.990 --> 23:59.110]  Um, I could share, uh, we had, uh, virtual 2,600 meetings, uh, all around the world, uh, this past Friday.
[23:59.410 --> 24:06.850]  Um, we had the one here in New York, which, uh, which I've been organizing those as a, uh, as a virtual event, um, since April.
[24:07.210 --> 24:16.670]  Um, and I really have to shout out to the, to the, uh, crew who not only show up for the things, but, uh, throw in and help with like moderating the room and stuff when I can't.
[24:16.950 --> 24:24.990]  And, uh, it's just, it's, you know, it's, it's not going out and seeing your, your friends and, uh, family in the community in person.
[24:25.410 --> 24:36.650]  Um, it's, you know, it's just not, but it's something and it's doing a lot to, I think, uh, keep everyone connected and keep everyone just, uh, updated on what's going on and, uh, sharing a bit of fellowship.
[24:36.870 --> 24:39.450]  I'm going to ask a really stupid question here.
[24:39.650 --> 24:43.410]  Um, you said, this is the virtual 2600 meeting for New York.
[24:43.890 --> 24:47.170]  If it's a virtual meeting, why New York?
[24:47.310 --> 24:48.730]  Why not just virtual?
[24:50.410 --> 24:54.250]  Because, uh, it's, it's a virtual meeting of the NYC 2600 community.
[24:54.250 --> 25:01.670]  So the bunch of us who have been showing up in person or at least, uh, primarily the bunch of us, but we'd have had, uh, people join in from all over the world.
[25:01.810 --> 25:14.970]  I, I spent quite a long time talking to someone in, uh, in Texas and, uh, someone else, uh, somewhere else, uh, just people who, uh, wouldn't be able to make it here physically, but, uh, who've always been, you know, interested in, uh, in chatting with us.
[25:15.090 --> 25:17.110]  And that's the, that's a great feeling.
[25:17.270 --> 25:29.030]  And it's, it's another thing that's really striking me about the talks and presenters that we have going on for this hope conference is so many of the speakers, um, who are going to give brilliant talks would not have been able to make it to a physical event.
[25:29.170 --> 25:30.430]  They're from all different parts of the world.
[25:30.610 --> 25:33.750]  They're from, you know, in situations in which they couldn't travel easily.
[25:34.150 --> 25:42.830]  And, uh, it's really opened it up to just, I think that's part of why we've been overwhelmed by just the quality of the, of the material that's been sent to us.
[25:42.930 --> 25:48.590]  People who otherwise wouldn't have been able to, uh, present a talk can, and it's really opened things up in a very interesting way.
[25:49.770 --> 25:52.010]  I, you know, I wish I could have made it to one of those meetings.
[25:52.250 --> 26:06.090]  Uh, I, I, I guess I didn't think that it would be going on for so long where we would have to have virtual meetings, but, um, we have to insist, uh, and we've disabled our, our, our meeting listing page so that people can't be tempted to go to physical meetings.
[26:06.250 --> 26:08.090]  We have to insist people stay safe.
[26:08.090 --> 26:16.550]  Even if you think you're in a place where it's not risky, we are not going to, uh, be the vehicle by which anybody goes out and gets infected.
[26:17.030 --> 26:19.010]  Um, it's going to take a little bit more time.
[26:19.150 --> 26:22.190]  It's going to take, uh, a little while, but we're going to do this right.
[26:22.590 --> 26:27.470]  And we're going to make the best of what we have and be creative, make something new.
[26:27.590 --> 26:36.730]  If, if, if we weren't organizing this conference, I'm sure we would have done something a lot more creative with the virtual meetings and, and maybe had them, um, uh, visit each other or, or, or something like that.
[26:37.050 --> 26:50.090]  Um, maybe after the conference, if it's still going on at that point, but, uh, I'm just, I'm just happy people are still going to meetings in one sense or another and, and staying in touch with each other and, um, just trying to do all the things that,
[26:50.270 --> 26:54.570]  uh, that make you feel comfortable and make you feel like you're a part of a community that, that is so important.
[26:54.610 --> 26:56.170]  It cannot be understated.
[26:59.350 --> 27:20.330]  Um, one thing that I had said early on when we started talking about taking the conference virtual was that the idea that we'd be able to really emphasize the on planet earth part of hackers on planet earth, that this is truly global this time, that we can really kind of break down all the boundaries and the barriers and everybody can be together no matter where they happen to be,
[27:20.390 --> 27:27.990]  I think is a really, a really powerful thing and a really strong statement about the hacker community that everybody's able to come together from all these different places.
[27:28.130 --> 27:28.910]  It's pretty cool.
[27:29.030 --> 27:29.970]  It's very cool.
[27:30.110 --> 27:30.570]  It's very cool.
[27:30.650 --> 27:40.830]  It's also, it's, it's reemphasized to me, I see my opposition to the space program because, you know, I look with dread at people talking about going to Mars and colonizing other planets.
[27:40.830 --> 27:45.370]  And I just, I don't know, what would we call the conference if it's on different planets as well?
[27:45.550 --> 27:46.730]  It wouldn't, hope wouldn't work anymore.
[27:46.730 --> 27:47.990]  We'd have to come up with something else.
[27:48.070 --> 27:50.390]  And I don't think it's, I have it in me to come up with another name.
[27:51.070 --> 27:53.670]  So, for God's sake, people, stay on the planet, all right?
[27:53.770 --> 27:56.530]  And let's have a nice name for our conference.
[28:00.000 --> 28:03.480]  Otherwise, we'll be terribly confused by how it's named.
[28:03.480 --> 28:04.160]  And, yeah.
[28:06.920 --> 28:08.220]  Hackers off planet Earth.
[28:09.920 --> 28:11.440]  You're some kind of wise guy, Rob?
[28:11.540 --> 28:12.160]  Is that what it is?
[28:12.240 --> 28:14.480]  You just come up with a good name in one second?
[28:14.780 --> 28:15.540]  Hackers orbit planet Earth.
[28:15.700 --> 28:15.960]  Uh-huh.
[28:17.020 --> 28:17.440]  All right.
[28:18.060 --> 28:18.480]  Orbiting.
[28:18.920 --> 28:19.300]  Yeah.
[28:20.100 --> 28:20.520]  Wow.
[28:21.540 --> 28:22.060]  All right.
[28:22.140 --> 28:24.620]  Well, we have other bits of news.
[28:24.920 --> 28:29.700]  The conference has been taking up all hours of our days, in case you can't tell.
[28:31.420 --> 28:35.600]  But we have other things to talk about as well, including the fact that TikTok might be banned.
[28:35.720 --> 28:36.320]  Did you hear about this?
[28:36.520 --> 28:37.760]  Trump might be banning TikTok?
[28:38.040 --> 28:38.620]  You guys know about it?
[28:40.540 --> 28:41.100]  Oh, yeah.
[28:41.280 --> 28:43.040]  He's, you know, going to very easily...
[28:43.040 --> 28:48.480]  I'm sure that will be very simple for him to do, with no hitches in the process whatsoever.
[28:48.900 --> 28:50.160]  Well, he solved coronavirus.
[28:50.280 --> 28:52.300]  He got rid of that because he wanted to.
[28:53.660 --> 28:56.020]  And all the trade deals are working out just great.
[28:56.140 --> 28:56.500]  And the economy...
[28:56.500 --> 28:59.060]  Well, I don't want to get into all this, because it'll just take up the rest of the hour.
[28:59.440 --> 29:02.540]  But, yeah, they say it's bad news for American teenagers.
[29:03.140 --> 29:04.600]  And for some reason, Jane Fonda.
[29:05.220 --> 29:12.620]  The Trump administration is apparently considering banning Chinese social media apps, including TikTok, over security concerns.
[29:14.720 --> 29:18.400]  Mike Pompeo, yeah, he's behind all this.
[29:18.480 --> 29:25.280]  And he said on Fox News, with respect to Chinese apps on people's cell phones, I can assure you, the United States will get this one right, too.
[29:25.440 --> 29:29.860]  I don't want to get out in front of the president, but it's something we're looking at.
[29:30.400 --> 29:35.260]  If you want your private information in the hands of the Chinese Communist Party, then you should use TikTok.
[29:35.540 --> 29:36.220]  Well, you know what?
[29:36.880 --> 29:42.520]  First of all, it's by no means a given that the Chinese Communist Party gets your information.
[29:42.620 --> 29:45.200]  It's most likely a Chinese company.
[29:45.880 --> 29:59.940]  But regardless, I would much rather they have it than data mining companies in this country that would use it in ways that would definitely be disadvantageous to me.
[30:00.900 --> 30:02.820]  Alex, what do you think about that?
[30:02.900 --> 30:09.780]  What is the harm in Chinese companies having access to data from an app that you download?
[30:10.920 --> 30:12.680]  There could be a massive amount of harm.
[30:12.840 --> 30:20.920]  I mean, look, I think, you know, just because it's a proposal from the president, we shouldn't poo-poo on it.
[30:21.020 --> 30:23.520]  I mean, even a stop clock can be right twice per day.
[30:24.740 --> 30:25.220]  And...
[30:25.220 --> 30:26.980]  This is a clock that's missing a hand.
[30:27.980 --> 30:29.360]  Tell me when that one's right.
[30:29.740 --> 30:36.020]  Missing a lot of various bits and pieces that would ordinarily go into any kind of orological device, I would imagine.
[30:36.020 --> 30:44.420]  But look, I think the general premise behind this, that TikTok is a security concern, is correct and absolutely right.
[30:44.680 --> 30:55.020]  However, I don't know if it is the prerogative of the federal government to pick and choose what apps we can and cannot download.
[30:55.020 --> 30:59.120]  These are things that we, as individuals, should be able to choose ourselves.
[30:59.420 --> 30:59.960]  You know, this is...
[30:59.960 --> 31:02.480]  I'm very much in favor of personal freedom.
[31:02.700 --> 31:07.220]  I don't like social media outlets determining what kind of content I should see.
[31:07.300 --> 31:11.660]  I don't want the president determining what kind of apps I should be allowed to download.
[31:11.660 --> 31:19.360]  And I should be able to make a rational, informed choice about whether or not I want my data accessible to ByteTance, the company that's behind TikTok.
[31:20.200 --> 31:32.440]  Now, a couple of other things that you said, Emmanuel, I think, you know, look, the problem with this is that the Chinese Communist Party already has a massive amount of data about U.S.
[31:32.500 --> 31:32.800]  citizens.
[31:32.800 --> 31:39.020]  I mean, think back to several years ago when we had the breach of OPM, or the Office of Personnel Management.
[31:39.420 --> 31:52.400]  That was a breach of everybody who had access... everybody's SF-86, the National Security Questionnaire form, that you have to fill out when you are applying to obtain a security clearance or access to classified information.
[31:52.640 --> 31:53.880]  I used to have two.
[31:54.020 --> 32:00.300]  I had one with the intelligence community and one with the Defense, Department of Defense as well.
[32:01.200 --> 32:10.240]  And so I got two data breach notification letters because Chinese threat actors were able to compromise OPM and steal all that data.
[32:10.460 --> 32:14.660]  So, you know, there's so much already in the hands of China.
[32:14.980 --> 32:16.660]  Would this amount to something else?
[32:16.760 --> 32:19.880]  And again, though, I think the answer is probably yes.
[32:20.120 --> 32:21.800]  Yeah, but if you have a security clearance, fine.
[32:21.960 --> 32:23.020]  I could see that being a threat.
[32:23.020 --> 32:30.960]  What does the average person have to worry about the Chinese Communist Party having their TikTok information or their phone geolocational information?
[32:31.380 --> 32:44.180]  It's because all of that information tied together with other data breaches, of which the Chinese are certainly in possession, can begin to paint a really accurate picture of where somebody's moving, where they're going, what they're doing.
[32:44.180 --> 32:50.000]  We know that TikTok was even capturing the clipboard information, what you cut and paste.
[32:50.200 --> 32:54.520]  You know, the data that's stored in memory, things like usernames, passwords.
[32:54.760 --> 32:57.220]  You might be cutting and pasting your password from one app to another.
[32:58.240 --> 33:04.680]  All of that information or text that was being cut and paste in the app was being sent over to China and accessible.
[33:04.680 --> 33:14.200]  We also know that TikTok was hoovering up a massive amount of data that could have no rational relation to the way in which the application itself operates.
[33:14.440 --> 33:21.000]  So it is a data vacuuming up machine that they have created.
[33:21.220 --> 33:27.700]  But what is the end worry here that China is going to send Ubers to your house or order pizzas in your name?
[33:27.800 --> 33:31.300]  Or what is it that we are afraid that they are going to do with this?
[33:31.300 --> 33:35.440]  I recognize what you're saying, but I see other companies doing the same thing.
[33:35.540 --> 33:40.120]  I see Facebook gathering all kinds of information on us that they really don't need to have.
[33:40.400 --> 33:43.960]  There's all kinds of data mining going on out there, and I agree this is a concern.
[33:43.960 --> 33:46.320]  But what are we afraid of in regards to this?
[33:46.680 --> 33:49.280]  Well, China is a hostile foreign nation.
[33:49.480 --> 33:54.420]  They could use a lot of this information, let's say, for social engineering purposes, to construct phishing emails.
[33:54.680 --> 34:03.160]  If they know what you're doing, what you're working on, it makes it that much easier for them to compromise, let's say, a personal account and then a work account and then move on to trade secrets.
[34:03.300 --> 34:13.020]  This gives their threat actors, their APTs, their advanced persistent threats, a massive amount of data from which they can mine and launch attacks.
[34:13.460 --> 34:15.860]  And that becomes very problematic.
[34:15.860 --> 34:23.380]  The other problem with China in particular is that, all right, sure, Facebook, Google, Spotify, you name it, right?
[34:23.440 --> 34:24.840]  They're all collecting data on us.
[34:24.920 --> 34:25.940]  But those are U.S.
[34:25.980 --> 34:27.260]  entities that are subject to U.S.
[34:27.320 --> 34:27.780]  jurisdiction.
[34:27.780 --> 34:34.220]  If they get out of line, we can sue them, we can hail them into federal court, and we can make them pay for their mistakes.
[34:34.280 --> 34:35.280]  Yeah, how's that working out?
[34:35.800 --> 34:37.020]  It worked out pretty well.
[34:37.060 --> 34:38.420]  I don't think it's working out well at all.
[34:38.540 --> 34:39.700]  I think we have...
[34:39.700 --> 34:43.020]  I mean, people are criticizing these companies more and more, but they're still out there.
[34:43.080 --> 34:45.580]  They're still gathering our data constantly.
[34:45.740 --> 34:47.240]  Our privacy means nothing anymore.
[34:47.680 --> 34:49.580]  So I think we're worse off than we've ever been.
[34:50.820 --> 34:57.620]  Neither Snapchat, nor Spotify, nor Facebook, nor Google is capturing as much data as TikTok is.
[34:57.740 --> 34:58.780]  Well, okay, so let me ask you a question.
[34:58.880 --> 35:05.100]  If TikTok was run by, say, I don't know, Scotland, would we have the same issue with it?
[35:05.160 --> 35:09.060]  If it was run exactly the same way, would we be as panicked?
[35:09.060 --> 35:10.380]  Is it just because it's China?
[35:11.040 --> 35:11.760]  That's correct.
[35:11.760 --> 35:16.700]  Yes, because it's China, which is a hostile foreign nation that for the last decade...
[35:16.700 --> 35:17.840]  I don't think they're that hostile.
[35:18.080 --> 35:20.640]  I think they're doing what we would do in the same situation.
[35:21.000 --> 35:27.160]  I think much more hostility comes from our own government than from China, at least as far as I can see.
[35:27.360 --> 35:28.440]  I disagree.
[35:28.680 --> 35:35.680]  On the information security front, China has been compromising massive amounts of intellectual property, trade secrets.
[35:35.820 --> 35:40.900]  You know, this is all part of how they want to develop their economy more quickly than ours.
[35:41.240 --> 35:43.740]  So, I mean, look, it is, yes, because it's China.
[35:43.920 --> 35:54.400]  If it was Scotland, which is still part of the U.K., then I don't think we would have as much pause, but it would still give me pause and should give anybody pause to put that information in the hands of a foreign power.
[35:54.700 --> 35:57.680]  So, basically, they're trying to build their country by stealing.
[35:58.540 --> 35:59.460]  That's the point.
[35:59.700 --> 36:02.860]  And that's exactly how our country was built, too, by stealing.
[36:03.500 --> 36:05.480]  Stealing land, not necessarily intellectual property.
[36:05.480 --> 36:06.180]  Yeah, okay, fine.
[36:06.180 --> 36:09.020]  I think land is a bit more valuable than intellectual property, but that's just me.
[36:10.160 --> 36:12.100]  I'll let somebody else jump in.
[36:12.480 --> 36:16.120]  But what I want to say, one final point, and I'm sorry to cut you off, Rob.
[36:17.820 --> 36:28.120]  What we have here, though, is something really interesting, though, because you have diplomatic soft power playing out on a technological playing field, right?
[36:28.280 --> 36:44.920]  So, information technology decisions, decisions of companies, let's say in response to the new law in Hong Kong, you know, that was just passed, that has many security ramifications, all of these decisions we're seeing, you know, that used to be purely technological,
[36:44.920 --> 36:47.900]  but now they're also partly political as well.
[36:48.100 --> 36:53.220]  So, banning an app, you know, was never the prerogative of the federal government before.
[36:53.320 --> 36:54.600]  This is something completely unheard of.
[36:54.600 --> 37:03.360]  This is a weird new form of diplomatic soft power that we're seeing played between major powers with technology.
[37:03.580 --> 37:05.580]  It's fascinating and terrifying.
[37:06.660 --> 37:12.500]  And that fascinates me about this, too, because it's the president saying, I'm going to ban this app.
[37:13.040 --> 37:19.740]  When we've got things like trade restrictions, sanctions, embargoes, things like that, that there are processes for in this country.
[37:19.900 --> 37:23.640]  If you want to designate someone a hostile power, you do that.
[37:23.760 --> 37:27.420]  There are, you know, ways and means to do this in our system of government.
[37:27.420 --> 37:41.640]  But if you're going to say, oh, it's fine to keep buying all the, you know, little plastic things that factories grind out or all the electronics that are in every device we own that, you know, the components from those that come from China, but you can't have this one app.
[37:42.180 --> 37:48.880]  That is like such a finely focused form of sanction or embargo or whatever that is.
[37:49.000 --> 37:54.000]  And it's the president just extra judicially saying that he's going to do that.
[37:54.120 --> 37:55.800]  And that interests me a lot.
[37:55.800 --> 37:58.040]  It's another power grab that he doesn't have.
[37:59.100 --> 38:01.620]  Yeah, I agree with that entirely, Rob.
[38:01.800 --> 38:16.140]  And on that front, you know, with respect to the new law in Hong Kong, which would have to do with, you know, censoring certain statements, making Hong Kong residents and statements online subject to essentially censorship of the censorship of China.
[38:16.880 --> 38:31.880]  What was also fascinating on the same along lines that you just mentioned was that ByteDance, the company that owns TikTok, had been making, you know, noises akin to what Facebook and Google and others were saying in response to that Hong Kong law, which is,
[38:31.940 --> 38:36.140]  hey, we might just pull out of Hong Kong because we don't necessarily agree with this law.
[38:36.140 --> 38:50.480]  So you see ByteDance, the owner of the TikTok app, being, you know, very much antagonistic to the government of China, trying to distance itself from the government of China.
[38:50.480 --> 38:51.300]  So, hold on a second.
[38:51.300 --> 38:57.140]  If that's the case, then why are we assuming that the Chinese Communist Party has access to all their data?
[38:57.140 --> 39:02.000]  Well, I'll tell you why, because any Chinese entity, there's no such...
[39:02.000 --> 39:03.000]  Well, let me step back.
[39:03.160 --> 39:07.340]  There's no such thing as an entirely private entity in China.
[39:07.740 --> 39:14.560]  Every single entity has some form of government oversight and usually some form of government ownership as well.
[39:14.900 --> 39:17.700]  And so everything is very, very heavily regulated.
[39:18.240 --> 39:27.940]  And, you know, the Chinese are very good at using their private industry as an information conduit for its intelligence activities as well.
[39:28.220 --> 39:38.560]  So, you know, again, if we get back to this issue of we're scared of it because it's China, I think that we're right to be scared of it because it's China.
[39:38.740 --> 39:43.460]  That's a massive amount of information, of personal information on hundreds of millions of U.S.
[39:43.520 --> 39:47.380]  citizens potentially flowing directly over into the hands of a foreign power.
[39:48.040 --> 39:48.800]  That's scary.
[39:50.080 --> 39:51.000]  Well, I don't know.
[39:51.100 --> 39:53.360]  I don't care if it's a foreign power or a domestic power.
[39:53.500 --> 39:58.940]  I might be a little more concerned if it's domestic power because they're a lot closer and it's a lot more relevant to them.
[39:59.420 --> 40:02.460]  But I also have more power to say something about it.
[40:02.600 --> 40:04.600]  So I see your point.
[40:04.720 --> 40:05.480]  I see your concern.
[40:05.480 --> 40:13.640]  But I just I don't buy that because it's China, it has to be this monolithic entity that is all thinking the same way.
[40:13.640 --> 40:28.580]  I think there is, as we see in Hong Kong, we're seeing people fighting the status quo, fighting the powers that have incredible organizational structure.
[40:29.620 --> 40:32.300]  So I think maybe it's a little bit more complex than that.
[40:32.440 --> 40:38.540]  And anytime Trump labels something as evil or an enemy, he's oversimplifying it.
[40:38.600 --> 40:39.980]  I think he might be doing the same thing here.
[40:41.220 --> 40:47.540]  Yeah, I mean, look, I think, again, I think he's the general premise of what he's doing is correct.
[40:47.540 --> 40:48.380]  It is dangerous.
[40:48.600 --> 40:48.720]  Right.
[40:49.640 --> 40:59.160]  But, you know, one other point here, too, is that, you know, in the United States, the companies that we deal with that hoover up our data, you know, at least there's some measure of transparency there.
[40:59.300 --> 41:00.760]  And there's some measure of legal process.
[41:00.760 --> 41:01.040]  Right.
[41:01.100 --> 41:04.420]  They don't just hand over our data to the government whenever the government asks.
[41:04.600 --> 41:06.380]  You know, they need to have a legal process.
[41:06.380 --> 41:13.760]  Usually there's some kind of judicial intervention involved if we're talking about a search warrant from the Department of Justice to go into somebody's email account.
[41:13.900 --> 41:16.640]  You know, we have the strictures of the Fourth Amendment here in place.
[41:17.840 --> 41:22.520]  You know, FISA, even though I know a lot of you guys think it's a it's a gigantic joke.
[41:22.760 --> 41:30.080]  But, you know, at least there is some legal process and the judiciary involved in the dispersion of our data over to the government.
[41:30.420 --> 41:33.360]  In China, we have no idea what the hell is going on over there.
[41:33.500 --> 41:34.900]  There's no transparency about this.
[41:34.900 --> 41:36.980]  We have no idea where the data is being stored.
[41:37.120 --> 41:38.780]  We have no idea who has access to it.
[41:38.940 --> 41:41.720]  There's no transparency reports that are being issued.
[41:41.900 --> 41:47.740]  And so I think, you know, they've got a long way to go if they want to garner our trust.
[41:48.100 --> 41:51.200]  And but it's a very general problem, too.
[41:51.280 --> 42:01.020]  I mean, look, we've become so accustomed to giving this away, giving our information away and using these apps for free to amuse ourselves in our downtime.
[42:01.640 --> 42:03.720]  That's, you know, this is just another one of those.
[42:04.460 --> 42:07.960]  And I and I think this one, however, is particularly dangerous.
[42:09.980 --> 42:12.920]  I don't think it's that deep for for the president.
[42:13.080 --> 42:16.800]  Remember, this this app was supposedly used for a campaign thing.
[42:16.800 --> 42:18.600]  I think he's more vindictive.
[42:18.700 --> 42:20.580]  And that's why it's so specific.
[42:20.940 --> 42:36.240]  And the only reason Pompeo that the reasoning for the rest of the administration or or why the president would entertain it would be because it does serve some economic protectionism that that Pompeo would definitely sign off on.
[42:36.240 --> 42:43.840]  And especially in the midst of the sort of tariffs and other sort of economic battles going on with China.
[42:44.040 --> 42:51.460]  But I don't even think it's not even giving it away in China as far as private entity trying to exist there.
[42:51.600 --> 42:53.400]  They're on the Chinese network.
[42:53.400 --> 43:09.480]  They have to use the infrastructure there is a complete command setup, like as far as how technology is controlled, how people's identities and access and transgressions are monitored.
[43:09.480 --> 43:33.820]  I mean, the the levels there and the the across the board management of the population, including businesses, is is I would say probably as substantial as what's going on here, but probably a lot more active instead of sort of passive in the ways we're used to.
[43:33.960 --> 43:35.720]  And I have to agree with Alex here.
[43:35.720 --> 43:52.840]  I think like, yeah, you know, American entities that are doing as much, perhaps they'll sell this stuff for ads or commercial gain and in the back end that way and then even sell the data to entities that are aggregating it and modeling with it and using it in different ways.
[43:52.840 --> 44:12.980]  But a state actor, especially an adversarial one who's already really serious about competing in high end industry and in a lot of high tech and already is trouncing us in a lot of economic ways as far as manufacturing and high tech.
[44:12.980 --> 44:27.300]  And you've seen that play out with 5G, that they'll that they wouldn't also have a command and an integration with the military side, with their weaponry, with their standing army.
[44:27.520 --> 44:31.220]  I mean, that's a lot just a lot more distinct from Google.
[44:31.320 --> 44:36.880]  Like we're not worried about how many missile silos Google has or how many missile silos Facebook has.
[44:36.880 --> 44:43.120]  They're as bad in other ways, but I don't think TikTok has any missile silos.
[44:43.260 --> 44:44.480]  No, not really.
[44:44.680 --> 44:46.460]  But they're operating on that network.
[44:46.780 --> 44:49.600]  So to trust them is it's the same debate, I think.
[44:49.860 --> 44:51.020]  I don't trust anybody.
[44:51.320 --> 44:52.100]  That's that's the thing.
[44:52.200 --> 44:53.480]  I don't trust any of these people.
[44:53.480 --> 44:54.240]  You shouldn't.
[44:54.460 --> 44:55.720]  So and I won't.
[44:55.840 --> 44:59.680]  But should we be surprised that Pompeo doesn't want to allow that?
[44:59.940 --> 45:02.740]  Especially with as vindictive as Trump is.
[45:02.880 --> 45:04.820]  I'm just not sure he's a racist meathead.
[45:04.820 --> 45:06.240]  I don't expect much from him.
[45:06.580 --> 45:08.580]  But should I delete my my WeChat account?
[45:08.720 --> 45:09.700]  And that's the Chinese Facebook.
[45:09.880 --> 45:10.420]  I don't know.
[45:10.680 --> 45:12.280]  I've got so much going on here.
[45:12.400 --> 45:13.760]  And I know I'm now I'm afraid.
[45:14.400 --> 45:18.540]  Unless you're actively using your WeChat app for for something.
[45:18.660 --> 45:20.760]  And I would I would put that on a burner phone if possible.
[45:21.260 --> 45:22.640]  I would certainly delete it.
[45:23.220 --> 45:24.300]  Yeah, no doubt.
[45:24.700 --> 45:24.960]  Wow.
[45:25.720 --> 45:27.760]  And look, you know, I appreciate you.
[45:27.840 --> 45:30.860]  You agreeing with me, Kyle, on on this point.
[45:31.040 --> 45:33.220]  I mean, this one is particularly dangerous.
[45:33.220 --> 45:42.760]  You know, in ByteDance, the company, you know, behind TikTok, I believe the CEO is actually American, you know, which is...
[45:42.760 --> 45:43.320]  Wait a minute.
[45:43.560 --> 45:44.260]  Well, hold on.
[45:44.540 --> 45:45.020]  Stop everything.
[45:45.240 --> 45:51.640]  You're saying the CEO of this company we're talking about in China, that's the biggest threat to to us right now, is American?
[45:52.640 --> 45:53.380]  That's correct.
[45:53.880 --> 45:54.120]  Yeah.
[45:54.560 --> 45:55.960]  How in the world did that happen?
[45:56.660 --> 45:59.800]  Well, you know, look, Americans can work for any company they want.
[45:59.800 --> 46:00.200]  They are, right?
[46:00.400 --> 46:03.440]  Yeah, but doesn't that speak volumes as to what...
[46:03.440 --> 46:03.600]  No.
[46:04.120 --> 46:04.480]  All right.
[46:05.100 --> 46:05.740]  Certainly not.
[46:06.000 --> 46:16.640]  Honestly, the fact that it's an American CEO seems to me like that's exactly what you would do if you wanted to engender the trust of a population that shouldn't give you that trust.
[46:16.760 --> 46:17.240]  Sounds like...
[46:17.240 --> 46:18.640]  Is to put in place an American.
[46:18.920 --> 46:19.740]  The perfect cover.
[46:19.920 --> 46:24.780]  The fact that it would give me, you know, that it wouldn't be a reason to trust it.
[46:24.860 --> 46:26.340]  Does Trump know about this?
[46:26.480 --> 46:26.880]  Does Trump know?
[46:26.880 --> 46:30.340]  Well, because I haven't seen him attacking this guy on Twitter, so...
[46:30.940 --> 46:31.540]  Not yet.
[46:31.780 --> 46:37.020]  Well, you know, we know he's listening to every word you say, Emmanuel, so, you know, hang on.
[46:37.180 --> 46:38.820]  Yeah, but he's only comprehending every other word.
[46:38.980 --> 46:39.960]  Hey, we have another story.
[46:40.060 --> 46:40.340]  This is...
[46:40.340 --> 46:41.700]  Look at all the time we spent on this one story.
[46:42.220 --> 46:44.200]  There's another interesting story out of Germany.
[46:44.360 --> 46:49.420]  The authorities there have seized a server used in the organization that published a trove of U.S.
[46:49.500 --> 46:52.840]  police internal documents, commonly known as Blue Leaks.
[46:52.840 --> 47:13.840]  Tuesday, Emma Best, who, by the way, is speaking at Hope, the founder of Distributed Denial of Secrets on DDoS Secrets, a WikiLeaks-like website that has published the police data, said that protesters in the German town of Zwickau seized the organization's primary public download server.
[47:13.840 --> 47:19.060]  We are working to obtain additional information, but presume it is regarding Blue Leaks.
[47:19.500 --> 47:22.480]  The server was used only to distribute data to the public.
[47:22.480 --> 47:28.900]  It had no contact with sources and was involved in nothing more than enlightening the public through journalistic publishing.
[47:30.280 --> 47:31.240]  Interesting story.
[47:31.640 --> 47:32.840]  The email from...
[47:34.720 --> 47:40.120]  Basically, they received email from the hosting provider that said, Your server has been confiscated.
[47:40.280 --> 47:43.300]  Until now, we were not allowed to inform you accordingly.
[47:43.920 --> 47:49.880]  And the email then notes that the seizing authority was the Department of Public Prosecution in Zwickau.
[47:51.600 --> 48:06.000]  DDoS Secrets has recently taken WikiLeaks' mantle as the most influential leaking organization on the Internet, publishing several dumps, such as data stolen from the Chilean military and neo-Nazi messages exchanged on the chat platform Discord.
[48:06.000 --> 48:08.680]  So, this is pretty big news, isn't it?
[48:11.280 --> 48:11.800]  Absolutely.
[48:12.180 --> 48:20.160]  And, of course, the biggest strength of distributing leaks like this online is getting copies of the data out there among as many people as possible.
[48:20.160 --> 48:24.040]  So, you can't just take down one machine and have the information no longer available.
[48:25.400 --> 48:30.480]  And, you know, DDoS, you know, distributed denial of service is what that means.
[48:30.480 --> 48:34.460]  And it's just distributed denial of secrets in this case.
[48:34.460 --> 48:36.240]  And that's what it's all about.
[48:36.420 --> 48:38.080]  And so, yep, they will bring it back.
[48:38.200 --> 48:42.060]  But also, taking a server away will not erase that data from the Internet.
[48:42.060 --> 48:43.000]  We know that full well.
[48:46.410 --> 48:46.810]  Yeah.
[48:47.010 --> 48:51.830]  And on that point, too, I mean, this was a massive amount of data.
[48:52.790 --> 49:05.770]  You know, it'll be difficult to just sort of, you know, download it and throw it back up because it's, I believe it's around 270 gigabytes of data, which is a pretty massive amount of data.
[49:06.130 --> 49:10.050]  I mean, getting that onto a new web host is going to require a lot of space.
[49:10.070 --> 49:11.710]  It's not going to be cheap, but it can be done.
[49:12.070 --> 49:16.670]  I mean, and the fact that it was up for so long and, you know, people have it.
[49:16.770 --> 49:20.710]  People will be reposting and rehosting this, I think, all around the world.
[49:20.710 --> 49:35.710]  You know, and this just gets to the issue of, you know, of playing whack-a-mole, you know, but law enforcement playing whack-a-mole, anybody trying to do intellectual property rights enforcement playing whack-a-mole, once the stuff is out there, it's like trying to put toothpaste back in a bottle.
[49:36.630 --> 49:54.410]  And, you know, I think law enforcement should probably focus more on the content of what's in those leaks, get ahead of what's in there, because with 270 gigabytes, I guarantee you that for the amount of time that it has been out there already, nobody has been able to go through and identify and analyze all of that data.
[49:54.570 --> 49:59.210]  This is going to be a leak that keeps on giving, sort of like the Snowden leaks of 2013.
[49:59.350 --> 50:01.930]  They keep on giving, and we're in 2020 right now.
[50:02.930 --> 50:15.730]  And like the Snowden leaks and collateral murder and stuff, you know, if these so-called public trust organizations would just stop doing so many terrible things, there wouldn't be terrible data about the terrible things they've done to leak out and for them to get ahead of.
[50:15.730 --> 50:21.390]  So, you know, if cops could just stop being bastards for a little while, there wouldn't be incriminating evidence of that.
[50:21.390 --> 50:22.130]  I want them to stop forever.
[50:22.130 --> 50:22.630]  But that's just my crazy idea.
[50:22.630 --> 50:25.730]  Not just for a little while, stop from now on, you know, enough.
[50:28.630 --> 50:43.610]  Yeah, people, the more people find out about the existence, it will become more sought, like more sought after as a compilation or a compendium of information and only serve to fuel further action.
[50:44.970 --> 50:49.750]  Hey, I'm going to take this opportunity to encourage people to pledge support to the radio station.
[50:49.870 --> 50:53.030]  516-620-3602 is our phone number.
[50:53.750 --> 50:59.630]  Call them and speak to the operators there and pledge whatever you can afford and see what kind of thank you gifts you can get in exchange.
[50:59.630 --> 51:04.150]  Or go to WBAI.org and become a BAI buddy.
[51:04.990 --> 51:09.930]  Yeah, give to WBAI.org is actually the correct website to go to in order to do all that.
[51:10.970 --> 51:14.850]  So your support is what keeps this radio station on the air, keeps this radio show on the air.
[51:14.990 --> 51:16.490]  And we do have to mention that.
[51:16.810 --> 51:18.730]  It's hugely important.
[51:19.070 --> 51:23.450]  I also want to take a little bit of time to talk about the story on Facebook.
[51:24.470 --> 51:29.190]  Not a story that appeared on Facebook because I don't trust any of those, but this is a story about Facebook.
[51:29.770 --> 51:34.470]  They have been vehemently condemned in a two-year report that they commissioned themselves.
[51:34.470 --> 51:36.830]  That's always terrible when that happens.
[51:37.290 --> 51:44.550]  The audit found a series of serious setbacks that led to failures on issues, including hate speech, misinformation, and bias.
[51:44.750 --> 51:51.430]  A 100-page report, makes for great reading, catalogs a seesaw of progress and setbacks.
[51:51.430 --> 51:53.090]  Which one do you think we're on right now?
[51:53.570 --> 51:55.930]  On a wide variety of issues.
[51:56.490 --> 52:04.390]  Facebook's chief operating officer, Sheryl Sandberg, said in a blog post that the company recognized it still had much to do on civil rights.
[52:04.690 --> 52:06.030]  That's their standard line.
[52:06.170 --> 52:08.550]  That's the standard line of every company that's been called.
[52:08.610 --> 52:09.650]  We're tired of hearing it.
[52:09.770 --> 52:15.090]  In response to the problems raised in the report, she described it as the beginning of the journey, not the end.
[52:15.210 --> 52:15.630]  Well, you know what?
[52:15.650 --> 52:17.550]  A lot of us have been on the journey for a long time.
[52:17.550 --> 52:19.130]  We see you way back there at the beginning.
[52:19.410 --> 52:20.510]  When are you going to catch up already?
[52:20.570 --> 52:21.490]  When are you going to start moving?
[52:22.490 --> 52:24.030]  It's so super important.
[52:24.610 --> 52:37.770]  The audit recommends that Facebook build a civil rights infrastructure into every aspect of the company, as well as a stronger interpretation of existing voter suppression policies and more concrete action on algorithmic bias.
[52:38.070 --> 52:39.590]  Those suggestions are not binding.
[52:39.850 --> 52:44.730]  There is no formal system in place to hold Facebook accountable for any of the audit's findings.
[52:45.030 --> 52:49.730]  But there is an ad boycott going on, and I think that's probably the best way to hold them accountable.
[52:50.470 --> 52:55.970]  You know, it seemed like a good idea at the time, but yeah, Mark, I don't know if it's working out for you.
[52:56.150 --> 52:57.870]  I think it's 300 companies now.
[52:57.870 --> 53:01.850]  This kind of power, this kind of control, comes with a lot of responsibility.
[53:02.250 --> 53:09.890]  And if you don't take it seriously, it's going to come with a lot of criticism, a lot of blowback, and you're going to rue the day.
[53:10.570 --> 53:12.370]  You're going to rue the day that you started this thing.
[53:14.950 --> 53:17.910]  In defense of Facebook, momentarily...
[53:17.910 --> 53:18.030]  Why?
[53:18.270 --> 53:18.590]  Why?
[53:18.790 --> 53:19.570]  I know you're a lawyer.
[53:19.570 --> 53:19.970]  How could you?
[53:20.070 --> 53:22.110]  I know you're a lawyer, but why in God's name do you have to...
[53:22.110 --> 53:22.590]  Okay, go ahead.
[53:22.750 --> 53:23.110]  Defend them.
[53:23.330 --> 53:36.130]  I've written extensively against them on certain things, but look, you know, in defense of Facebook, I think, you know, they're a private company with a finite number of people, far short of the employees of the federal government.
[53:36.290 --> 53:49.990]  Yet, we are expecting them to take on and do this very well, functions of the federal government that have to deal with the things akin to the prior restraint of free speech, which very often the federal judiciary doesn't even get right.
[53:49.990 --> 54:00.250]  I mean, these are very, very difficult issues that have to do with truth, integrity, information, and to expect Facebook to get it right all the time, I think, is really asking too much of them.
[54:00.490 --> 54:10.890]  However, the easy thing for them to do would be to say, all right, this is too much of a complete morass here for us to deal with all the time.
[54:11.030 --> 54:18.950]  We're facing ad boycotts, and maybe this is where they'll come out, but we just don't think that this should be a platform where politics are advertised.
[54:19.550 --> 54:20.070]  That's it.
[54:20.150 --> 54:21.070]  That would solve the whole thing.
[54:21.170 --> 54:31.050]  That would get them out of this function of having to police misinformation, disinformation, free speech, bias to the right, bias to the left, whatever it is, just get it out entirely.
[54:31.330 --> 54:34.650]  Don't sell ads about politics, full stop.
[54:34.930 --> 54:35.370]  That's it.
[54:36.490 --> 54:39.710]  Or maybe everybody could migrate over to TikTok and we could talk about it there.
[54:39.830 --> 54:40.230]  I don't know.
[54:40.450 --> 54:43.570]  I don't know how to use TikTok, but we're out of time.
[54:43.830 --> 54:46.710]  Write to us, please, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[54:46.870 --> 54:47.810]  We'd love to hear your feedback.
[54:48.090 --> 54:50.770]  We're going to have those two keynotes announced tomorrow on hope.net.
[54:50.970 --> 54:54.930]  More information almost every day now between now and the conference.
[54:55.610 --> 54:57.530]  It's really exciting times for us.
[54:57.930 --> 55:00.950]  We have all sorts of things to look forward to.
[55:01.270 --> 55:02.910]  And please support the radio station.
[55:03.190 --> 55:06.970]  Give to WBAI.org, 516-620-3602.
[55:07.510 --> 55:08.530]  Good night, everyone.
[55:08.870 --> 55:09.210]  Take care.
[56:16.650 --> 56:23.610]  I'm a ghost, living in a ghost town.
[56:23.610 --> 56:23.930]  I'm a ghost, living in a ghost town.