[00:00.000 --> 00:09.300]  And just to follow up what Richard Wolff just said, this is WBAI New York 99.5 FM and WBAI.org online.
[00:09.480 --> 00:17.740]  The previous program was Economic Update with Richard Wolff, heard Wednesdays at 6.30 p.m.
[00:18.020 --> 00:28.500]  And for those people who have yet to do so, please consider becoming a financial supporter to this radio station by calling 516-620-3602.
[00:28.500 --> 00:31.380]  Now stay tuned for Off The Hook, coming up.
[00:32.920 --> 00:36.500]  And you're listening to WBAI New York.
[00:36.960 --> 00:42.320]  It's 7 o'clock, time for another remote edition of Off The Hook.
[02:07.920 --> 02:10.060]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:10.160 --> 02:11.860]  The program is Off The Hook.
[02:12.100 --> 02:15.880]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you tonight, joined by Kyle.
[02:17.340 --> 02:17.880]  Yes.
[02:18.140 --> 02:18.660]  You're with us?
[02:18.800 --> 02:18.940]  Okay.
[02:19.260 --> 02:19.640]  I am.
[02:19.640 --> 02:22.400]  And by Alex, I believe.
[02:22.740 --> 02:24.100]  Alex, are you there in Skypeland?
[02:24.720 --> 02:25.940]  Good evening from Manhattan.
[02:26.600 --> 02:26.780]  Okay.
[02:26.840 --> 02:28.620]  I don't know why your microphone sounds quite like that.
[02:28.640 --> 02:29.980]  You sound very echoey and tinny.
[02:31.220 --> 02:31.960]  I don't know.
[02:32.040 --> 02:33.540]  That's probably...
[02:34.180 --> 02:36.400]  You sound like a memory in my head.
[02:37.920 --> 02:38.520]  That's right.
[02:39.020 --> 02:39.180]  Yeah.
[02:39.440 --> 02:40.820]  Just invading, I imagine.
[02:41.540 --> 02:42.340]  Just very...
[02:42.340 --> 02:42.460]  Okay.
[02:42.560 --> 02:43.200]  Well, you know what?
[02:43.480 --> 02:44.100]  We'll adjust.
[02:44.320 --> 02:47.460]  This whole year has been about adjusting, and we'll adjust here as well.
[02:47.460 --> 02:48.800]  So, how have you guys been?
[02:49.600 --> 02:50.320]  I'm all right.
[02:50.900 --> 02:51.200]  Okay.
[02:51.440 --> 02:54.140]  Alex, are you in Pennsylvania or New York right now?
[02:54.260 --> 02:54.520]  No.
[02:54.640 --> 02:55.740]  I'm in Manhattan tonight.
[02:55.740 --> 02:56.880]  I'm in New York.
[02:57.720 --> 03:02.080]  I've been good, you know, but I'm feeling a little burnt out, to be honest with you.
[03:02.160 --> 03:03.060]  I'm getting tired.
[03:03.380 --> 03:04.820]  I mean, we're nine months into this thing.
[03:05.060 --> 03:16.400]  I'm running back and forth between New York and Pennsylvania, dealing with the kids' schedules, the wife's work-from-home schedules, my work schedules, you know, all kinds of crazy stuff going on.
[03:16.400 --> 03:19.380]  I'm work-related craziness constantly.
[03:19.520 --> 03:20.660]  You know, it's a lot.
[03:20.780 --> 03:22.420]  Nine months in, I'm starting to feel it.
[03:22.460 --> 03:23.340]  I'm getting tired.
[03:23.520 --> 03:26.220]  Do you maybe want to push back a little bit and say, you know what?
[03:26.260 --> 03:27.640]  I'm not going to wear the mask anymore.
[03:28.080 --> 03:30.140]  I refuse to obey the rules.
[03:30.200 --> 03:32.700]  I'm going to eat in a restaurant, even if I'm the only one there.
[03:33.100 --> 03:38.180]  I'm going to gather at a church and a synagogue and just go to a baseball game.
[03:38.560 --> 03:40.260]  Any desire to do any of that?
[03:40.260 --> 03:46.960]  I have not even a fraction of the energy that it would take to do even half of what you suggested.
[03:47.080 --> 03:48.620]  What kind of patriot are you?
[03:49.940 --> 03:55.920]  I guess the liberal kind, you know, or independent-minded, you know, that kind of patriot.
[03:55.920 --> 03:57.180]  You hear that guy honking outside?
[03:57.380 --> 03:58.400]  That's a true patriot.
[03:59.300 --> 04:01.160]  Somebody willing to cause a ruckus.
[04:01.700 --> 04:04.040]  No, but seriously, folks, stay inside.
[04:05.440 --> 04:07.800]  We're seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.
[04:08.020 --> 04:09.040]  It's still a ways away.
[04:09.440 --> 04:12.440]  And there are still all kinds of complications that I'm sure are going to come up.
[04:12.440 --> 04:14.860]  But we have to do the smart thing.
[04:15.020 --> 04:17.840]  And so many people in New York have done the smart thing.
[04:17.980 --> 04:20.200]  And that's why we got through the spring.
[04:20.220 --> 04:21.900]  And, yeah, it's getting bad again.
[04:22.240 --> 04:23.520]  We knew this was coming.
[04:23.720 --> 04:25.680]  And we need to get through this.
[04:25.880 --> 04:27.760]  There is a vaccine in the works.
[04:28.020 --> 04:33.740]  It's actually being applied to people in the United Kingdom, including William Shakespeare, I understand.
[04:35.760 --> 04:38.720]  And the day is coming for us soon.
[04:39.080 --> 04:40.960]  And things will get better.
[04:42.440 --> 04:43.800]  Yeah, I think so.
[04:43.920 --> 04:46.980]  And one thing I would like to mention, I'm kind of proud of this.
[04:47.200 --> 05:03.700]  And speaking of doing the right thing, doing the intelligent thing, tomorrow I'm excited to announce that at 4.30 p.m., the Financial Times is announcing the winners of the North American Innovation Awards for lawyers.
[05:04.160 --> 05:11.960]  And my law firm, Blackstone Law Group, we were actually shortlisted for an award about enabling business response to the coronavirus.
[05:12.440 --> 05:26.820]  And specifically the work that I did with respect to DNS monitoring, looking out for coronavirus-related threats, monitoring coronavirus-related domains, and detecting the attempted intrusion attempt on the World Health Organization back in March.
[05:26.820 --> 05:28.780]  So that's tomorrow.
[05:28.780 --> 05:31.820]  We find out whether or not we won the award.
[05:32.060 --> 05:39.380]  But given there is a lot of stiff competition, I think every other law firm that is shortlisted has over 1,000 lawyers.
[05:40.060 --> 05:42.540]  We're three, so it's quite a bit different.
[05:43.020 --> 05:45.080]  It's a David and Goliath fight.
[05:45.360 --> 05:48.900]  But I think it's really, really cool and awesome to be recognized for that.
[05:48.900 --> 05:50.360]  Is it too late for listeners to vote?
[05:51.560 --> 05:52.560]  It's no voting.
[05:52.740 --> 06:02.320]  They're selected by research done by a specialized group known as RSG Consulting, and I think members of the Financial Times editorial staff as well.
[06:02.580 --> 06:03.260]  I see.
[06:03.280 --> 06:04.820]  So we've just got to put some pressure on them.
[06:05.000 --> 06:05.620]  That's right.
[06:05.880 --> 06:06.080]  Okay.
[06:06.520 --> 06:07.740]  Message received.
[06:08.000 --> 06:08.600]  Message received.
[06:08.720 --> 06:08.940]  Yeah.
[06:08.960 --> 06:14.360]  I do hope that you win tomorrow, and you certainly deserve it.
[06:14.360 --> 06:30.940]  But it's been quite a year, the projects we've been involved in, the things that we've seen, and, of course, all of our listeners as well, and so many courageous people that we have come in contact with and heard about in these very trying times.
[06:32.180 --> 06:41.420]  We're going to have a special guest coming up at the half mark of the hour, and then at 8 o'clock, we're going to be doing something additional to the program.
[06:41.420 --> 06:43.040]  We're going to be doing something online.
[06:43.500 --> 06:44.040]  Stay tuned.
[06:44.160 --> 06:45.700]  We'll give you more details on that.
[06:46.080 --> 06:56.320]  And it's also a chance for those of you listening right now, whether you're local, whether you're listening to some other part of the world, as long as you're listening live, you'll be able to call us and talk to us on a regular telephone.
[06:56.360 --> 06:58.840]  So we have that coming up.
[06:58.940 --> 07:02.000]  We'll give you more details on that as it gets a little bit closer.
[07:02.560 --> 07:04.700]  But now I'd like to go into some listener mail.
[07:04.760 --> 07:07.380]  We got a lot of listener mail last week because you know why.
[07:07.380 --> 07:13.120]  We played those old recordings from the VoiceBBS from the mid-1990s up until 2000.
[07:13.120 --> 07:15.200]  People loved to hear that.
[07:16.000 --> 07:25.100]  And everybody was able to point out something that I suspected, but it was pretty much confirmed.
[07:25.960 --> 07:28.900]  Here's one sample letter from someone known as Freakature.
[07:29.380 --> 07:39.080]  I'm listening to the podcast, which we are a podcast as well as a broadcast, of Off the Hook, where you're playing the audio files from your VoiceBBS, and I think the sample rate is wrong.
[07:39.520 --> 07:43.980]  All of the voices seem pitched up like they've been huffing helium.
[07:43.980 --> 07:49.300]  I'm wondering if you've tried playing it back around 6,000 hertz rather than 8,000.
[07:49.880 --> 07:52.380]  Well, Freakature, in fact, it was wrong.
[07:52.760 --> 07:56.440]  We did it at 8,000, and that was too fast.
[07:56.620 --> 08:03.180]  It turned out the right setting was actually somewhere around 7,200, I believe.
[08:03.420 --> 08:12.160]  What I'm going to do is play you an old recording and then play you the fix after we apply the new settings.
[08:12.160 --> 08:15.240]  This is how the recording that you heard last week sounded.
[08:15.960 --> 08:18.680]  Yes, this is the Jackal from the MPEA, New York.
[08:19.580 --> 08:20.720]  Okay, that's the Jackal.
[08:20.780 --> 08:21.920]  Now listen to him and prove.
[08:22.320 --> 08:25.300]  Yes, this is the Jackal from the MPEA, New York.
[08:26.700 --> 08:31.080]  This guy here, he sounds like he's about 15 years old.
[08:31.840 --> 08:34.360]  Hey, it's out back in the Midwest checking in.
[08:34.680 --> 08:37.180]  But now he sounds about 20 years older.
[08:37.320 --> 08:40.360]  Hey, it's out back in the Midwest checking in.
[08:40.360 --> 08:43.320]  So it's amazing what you can do with pitch.
[08:43.660 --> 08:46.360]  So thank you everybody who pointed that out to us.
[08:46.420 --> 08:58.500]  In fact, we even heard from the guy responsible for helping us figure it all out and get these recordings rescued when we couldn't play them back for many, many years.
[08:58.660 --> 09:02.760]  Nobody knew how to get the format to play back.
[09:03.420 --> 09:07.760]  He wrote, and after listening to the show this week, I realized that we were a bit off on the audio ID.
[09:08.080 --> 09:12.980]  All the decoded recordings were a bit high-pitched, which indicates we were off on the sample rate.
[09:13.200 --> 09:18.500]  Instead of 8-bit unsigned linear PCM at 8 kHz, I think it is actually 7.2 kHz or so.
[09:19.660 --> 09:21.820]  So that is, in fact, what it is.
[09:21.840 --> 09:23.400]  I think it sounds great right now.
[09:24.700 --> 09:30.200]  In all my 30-plus years of doing this stuff, I've never seen anything with a 7200 sample rate.
[09:30.200 --> 09:35.240]  Thank you, Andy, for all of your help, and glad to open up some new horizons for you.
[09:35.380 --> 09:37.660]  Yes, 7200 Hz.
[09:38.480 --> 09:40.520]  Look to us to find something like that.
[09:41.260 --> 09:43.100]  We have a couple of other recordings.
[09:43.400 --> 09:47.600]  You want to hear a couple of the voicemail recordings from 20, 25 years ago?
[09:47.820 --> 09:48.000]  Yeah.
[09:48.320 --> 09:52.520]  Are these the pre-puberty sample rates or the post-puberty?
[09:53.020 --> 09:54.660]  Well, it depends on who's calling.
[09:54.840 --> 09:56.980]  If it's an 8-year-old calling, it's still going to sound...
[09:56.980 --> 10:00.280]  Well, you're going to hear some kids who aren't kids anymore.
[10:00.620 --> 10:04.340]  And, in fact, a couple of them are going to give out their e-mail addresses, which I'm sure they're not using.
[10:04.340 --> 10:08.060]  But it would be fun if they were listening or if somebody knew them.
[10:08.240 --> 10:09.360]  Let's listen to one of them.
[10:09.580 --> 10:10.440]  Hey, this is The Liking.
[10:11.040 --> 10:13.420]  Yeah, this goes out to mail, 516.
[10:13.880 --> 10:16.140]  You were talking about the meetings.
[10:16.360 --> 10:17.980]  I really want to get these meetings going.
[10:18.320 --> 10:21.620]  I think 2600 Magazine said something about you have to have enough people.
[10:21.920 --> 10:23.280]  From what I believe, it may be wrong.
[10:23.440 --> 10:26.760]  But you may have to have enough people in order to get these meetings started.
[10:29.120 --> 10:33.940]  If you do want to go to a meeting, I want to make sure, you know, I see how many people I can get going.
[10:33.940 --> 10:37.220]  And then maybe I'll be able to contact 2600 and see what's going on.
[10:39.500 --> 10:42.940]  E-mail me, if you get a chance, at vikingsecond.com.
[10:42.960 --> 10:48.180]  That is spelled V-I-I-K-I-N-G-2-N-D.
[10:48.260 --> 10:50.920]  It's actually vikingsecond at AOL.com.
[10:53.280 --> 10:59.320]  You could, you know, also, if you have any information about it, I'd really like to know about it, too.
[10:59.320 --> 11:01.700]  So, because I don't really know much about it, either.
[11:01.900 --> 11:07.420]  So, if you've had experience with these meetings in the past, whatever, you know, give me, you know, throw me a line.
[11:08.000 --> 11:09.840]  But if not, I guess that's about it.
[11:10.020 --> 11:11.740]  So, I'll see you guys later.
[11:11.800 --> 11:12.560]  I hope to hear from you soon.
[11:12.880 --> 11:13.020]  Bye.
[11:14.440 --> 11:21.220]  And, yes, that was a 25-year-old message from someone named Viking 2, I believe.
[11:22.120 --> 11:23.980]  He was out on eastern Long Island.
[11:24.200 --> 11:26.080]  And I remember he had left a couple of messages.
[11:26.220 --> 11:28.940]  We've heard a few of these where he was trying to get to a meeting.
[11:28.940 --> 11:29.820]  But it was too far away.
[11:29.980 --> 11:31.420]  So, he may never have made it to a meeting.
[11:31.560 --> 11:33.660]  And this could be the first acknowledgement that he was trying.
[11:33.900 --> 11:34.580]  So, I don't know.
[11:34.600 --> 11:38.140]  If that's a friend of yours, tell him the meetings will resume when the pandemic is over.
[11:38.180 --> 11:40.840]  And maybe we can all meet in New York City at some point.
[11:42.700 --> 11:44.140]  Yeah, I think it's very cool.
[11:44.200 --> 11:47.840]  I also wanted to give you guys a preview of what it sounds like over here right now.
[11:48.640 --> 11:50.580]  I don't know if you hear the banging and the clanging.
[11:50.780 --> 11:51.760]  We're picking that up.
[11:51.820 --> 11:52.060]  Yes.
[11:52.180 --> 11:52.880]  What's going on?
[11:53.040 --> 11:56.400]  As it would happen, the heat in my office building is just turning up.
[11:56.480 --> 11:57.520]  That's the sound of heat?
[11:57.520 --> 11:59.680]  Well, it's old radiators.
[11:59.940 --> 12:03.060]  This is an early 20th century building.
[12:03.800 --> 12:06.140]  And yeah, welcome back to Manhattan.
[12:06.420 --> 12:07.840]  Yeah, I don't care what century it is.
[12:07.980 --> 12:15.160]  But when you're designing a system and there's a lot of clanging and banging, how can you say with a straight face, yeah, this is a good idea?
[12:16.220 --> 12:18.240]  This is what was sold to people back then.
[12:19.480 --> 12:27.800]  Coincidentally, I did read an article yesterday about the radiators that you see in these old pre-war apartments like my own over in West Village.
[12:28.000 --> 12:35.040]  The gigantic steel radiators that are these coiled up extraordinarily heavy things.
[12:35.040 --> 12:38.560]  And apparently, these were designed...
[12:38.560 --> 12:39.500]  Sorry about the background.
[12:39.500 --> 12:40.000]  Oh my God.
[12:40.180 --> 12:42.720]  It sounds like somebody's fixing a car or something.
[12:43.420 --> 12:44.600]  They might as well be.
[12:44.680 --> 12:45.880]  It would probably be less noisy.
[12:47.140 --> 13:08.200]  These radiators were designed during the Spanish flu pandemic, you know, just over 100 years ago, and were so incredibly powerful, and still are incredibly powerful, because they were designed to have the windows open while they were operating, so that you can have an apartment ventilating while it was being heated.
[13:08.300 --> 13:09.320]  How extraordinary is that?
[13:10.040 --> 13:13.080]  Not as extraordinary as trying to hear you over all that, but wow.
[13:14.100 --> 13:19.260]  You touched upon one of my sticking points here when you mentioned the Spanish flu.
[13:19.440 --> 13:22.200]  Alex, do you know where the Spanish flu came from?
[13:23.720 --> 13:25.380]  Yes, it came from the United States.
[13:25.540 --> 13:26.180]  It came from Kansas.
[13:26.860 --> 13:27.500]  It came from Kansas.
[13:27.580 --> 13:28.900]  You know why it's called the Spanish flu?
[13:30.820 --> 13:32.780]  I don't exactly recall.
[13:32.960 --> 13:34.700]  I remember it was a bit of a misnomer.
[13:34.820 --> 13:36.100]  Let me enlighten you.
[13:36.300 --> 13:43.940]  It was called the Spanish flu, because World War I was very popular then, and everybody was engaged in that, and they weren't talking about anything bad.
[13:43.940 --> 13:45.920]  They weren't spreading bad news.
[13:46.140 --> 13:51.820]  So any reports of a pandemic were quelled, except in Spain.
[13:52.200 --> 13:52.960]  They were neutral.
[13:53.120 --> 14:01.120]  They weren't part of the war, so they reported, hey guys, there's this pandemic going on, and it became known as the Spanish flu because they were the only ones talking about it.
[14:01.660 --> 14:02.960]  Yeah, I didn't know that, did you?
[14:04.200 --> 14:05.280]  I didn't know that.
[14:05.320 --> 14:06.100]  I just forgot it.
[14:06.220 --> 14:08.280]  No, I'm not addressing you.
[14:08.280 --> 14:14.520]  So I'm saying, in general, I don't think, when we talk about the Spanish flu, somehow people blame Spain.
[14:15.080 --> 14:23.080]  You know, you shouldn't blame anybody for something that you cannot control, like a horrible disease, like what we're going through right now.
[14:24.180 --> 14:25.480]  Anyway, we got kind of dark there.
[14:25.600 --> 14:27.020]  Let's go back to one of the messages.
[14:27.020 --> 14:29.540]  This is a very short message from the mid-90s.
[14:29.540 --> 14:30.280]  Let's hear it.
[14:30.700 --> 14:32.140]  This is Sonic Hacker from 815.
[14:32.780 --> 14:35.680]  I was wondering why...
[14:37.160 --> 14:38.840]  And that was the last we heard of him.
[14:39.300 --> 14:42.820]  Sonic Hacker from 815 was going to ask a question and never finished it.
[14:43.120 --> 14:48.200]  He just, I guess, got spooked or just didn't think that we'd have the answer.
[14:48.620 --> 14:50.020]  815, was that what, Indiana?
[14:50.380 --> 14:51.560]  I'm not sure where 815 is.
[14:51.560 --> 15:00.200]  But, yeah, if you're still out there, Sonic Hacker, you probably have had the question answered by now, but we might still have... we might still know.
[15:00.400 --> 15:00.940]  Yes, Alex?
[15:01.780 --> 15:03.980]  Oh, no, I was just going to say, I think that's Illinois.
[15:04.640 --> 15:05.060]  It's Illinois.
[15:05.080 --> 15:06.440]  Okay, I knew it was out there somewhere.
[15:07.260 --> 15:09.080]  And we have one more last message.
[15:09.180 --> 15:10.000]  Shall we listen to this one?
[15:10.500 --> 15:11.320]  All right, let's go ahead.
[15:11.720 --> 15:13.340]  Yeah, this is Metal Man 516.
[15:13.920 --> 15:18.480]  I just got a cell phone, and I'm looking for ways to clone it.
[15:18.480 --> 15:23.760]  So, does anyone have any information on the Motorola Microtec Elite?
[15:24.420 --> 15:28.320]  You know, I never really heard of this kind, but I'm messing around with it.
[15:28.880 --> 15:31.060]  And I have some backdoor things.
[15:31.460 --> 15:38.620]  And if you hit a... I think it's... I'm not sure the buttons, but menu and another key, you get prompted for a PIN number.
[15:38.840 --> 15:40.560]  I'm not sure what this Motorola PIN number.
[15:40.680 --> 15:48.360]  If anyone has any programming for the Motorola name I just mentioned, because I'm not calling it out again, please post it.
[15:48.400 --> 15:49.040]  I'd appreciate it.
[15:49.260 --> 15:51.200]  This is the middleman of 516.
[15:51.360 --> 15:51.740]  See you guys later.
[15:52.140 --> 15:53.960]  Oh, middleman from 516.
[15:53.960 --> 15:58.780]  I love how he forgot the name of his own phone and wasn't going to pull it out of his pocket again to look at it.
[15:59.320 --> 16:01.580]  There is some classic material here.
[16:01.660 --> 16:09.700]  I don't know if he was 6 or 12 or whatever, but this is the fascination with technology and cloning phones that existed back then.
[16:10.340 --> 16:17.920]  You know, and one point to make is that, you know, he's calling from the 516, but this was the mid-90s before 516 split into 631 and 516.
[16:18.260 --> 16:19.320]  Yeah, don't remind me of that.
[16:19.400 --> 16:20.980]  It's a very... another sore point for me.
[16:21.160 --> 16:29.100]  When 516 was stolen from me and given to Nassau County, and yeah, we were left with 631 out here in Suffolk County, so...
[16:29.100 --> 16:32.560]  He could have been calling from Suffolk, but I do remember that phone specifically.
[16:32.560 --> 16:44.480]  I think I actually had the Motorola TAC ultralight that I had reprogrammed with an EEPROM reader-writer that I came into possession of in one way or another.
[16:45.200 --> 16:46.580]  But those were the days.
[16:46.700 --> 16:48.940]  I mean, that message really brings me back.
[16:49.080 --> 16:55.200]  I mean, that's like... that's a real blast from the past in the 90s to mention that particular phone, wants information about reprogramming it.
[16:55.480 --> 16:56.900]  It's incredibly cool stuff.
[16:57.340 --> 16:58.960]  Yeah, and it's amazing.
[16:58.960 --> 17:05.860]  You would think an old voicemail or voice-BBS recording from some kid in the mid-90s, why would that be of interest?
[17:06.000 --> 17:12.520]  And you just explained very accurately why that brings back memories, why that's something that's so important.
[17:12.700 --> 17:23.640]  I just want to point out that's a not trivial thing to do at the time, and just to be interested in it, remarking that it's their device, like their phone.
[17:23.640 --> 17:34.800]  And that's so familiar to a lot of people using handsets today, trying to get control over their own stuff, figure out how it works, make a copy of something.
[17:34.940 --> 17:37.380]  These are all really basic principles.
[17:37.660 --> 17:51.760]  And just that curiosity coupled with a desire to control your equipment is, I think, really timeless and cool to hear memories of the same attitude that we have.
[17:52.600 --> 17:53.160]  Most definitely.
[17:53.920 --> 17:54.780]  There are a lot more coming.
[17:54.900 --> 17:55.880]  We have 4,000 messages.
[17:55.880 --> 17:57.900]  Of course, not all of them are voice recordings.
[17:58.040 --> 17:58.860]  Some of them are hang-ups.
[17:59.000 --> 17:59.800]  Many of them are hang-ups.
[18:00.320 --> 18:03.440]  And it's going to take a long time to go through them all and weed them out.
[18:03.640 --> 18:05.620]  But I'm sure there's all kinds of history there.
[18:05.900 --> 18:07.080]  And we don't know what to do with them.
[18:07.200 --> 18:10.960]  Some people have been asking, are you going to make them public?
[18:10.960 --> 18:24.180]  I guess, you know, messages like that that are meant to be public in the first place will put somewhere and people will get to hear them in future weeks, months, years.
[18:25.160 --> 18:27.060]  Let's go back to listener mail.
[18:27.460 --> 18:28.220]  A couple of other things.
[18:29.680 --> 18:30.400]  Let's see.
[18:30.640 --> 18:34.580]  A bunch of people wrote in trying to help us with satellite challenges.
[18:35.360 --> 18:38.640]  On iOS and Android, you can use an application called SatFinder Pro.
[18:38.840 --> 18:42.240]  It downloads a list of satellites for offline access.
[18:42.240 --> 18:49.160]  It also includes an AR feature that can use the phone's camera and overlay the satellite location so you can check for obstructions.
[18:50.260 --> 18:52.400]  And thanks, Richard, for writing with that.
[18:52.400 --> 18:54.500]  I don't know if that's the app that we use, Kyle.
[18:54.620 --> 18:55.400]  Well, there are a couple.
[18:55.580 --> 19:02.320]  I think one of our critiques of these apps, some of them you can't actually take a photo once you've lined it up.
[19:02.400 --> 19:09.940]  It doesn't overlay any of the targets or information about where exactly a satellite might be.
[19:10.100 --> 19:10.380]  Yeah.
[19:10.540 --> 19:16.460]  But what we're concerned about is also obstructions, like getting a clear shot.
[19:16.460 --> 19:34.920]  If it's something that's low on the horizon or something where you definitely have stuff that grows and you're trying to clear things, you need to have an idea of the spot in the horizon you need clear and no more, no less.
[19:35.080 --> 19:37.560]  That's, I think, the budgeting of that space.
[19:38.000 --> 19:45.620]  The challenge is there's a satellite that we try to tune in on and there are trees.
[19:46.060 --> 19:52.020]  What we need to know is what trees, what branches need to go for that satellite to be viewable.
[19:52.240 --> 19:55.680]  And there are lots of trees, so it's hard to tell which one specifically.
[19:55.860 --> 20:05.500]  And like you said, Kyle, the app that we used, it had an augmented reality feature, but it didn't allow you to take a picture, which I thought was the most asinine thing.
[20:05.920 --> 20:10.620]  Obviously, you're going to want to take a picture to show somebody this is what you need to cut right here.
[20:10.740 --> 20:11.860]  There was no way to do that.
[20:12.580 --> 20:22.100]  So ideally, what we need is somebody who is both adept at using the app, knowing something about satellites, and also not being afraid to climb up a tall branch and cut it off.
[20:22.380 --> 20:34.420]  My crazy idea was to put some sticks across the dish and try to point it in the general direction with a laser pointer and some tape.
[20:34.760 --> 20:36.900]  And it really turned into a mess.
[20:36.940 --> 20:37.180]  It did.
[20:37.300 --> 20:39.880]  We used another app that pointed to the wrong part of the sky.
[20:39.880 --> 20:41.700]  We cut the wrong branch.
[20:41.840 --> 20:43.600]  When we had the chance, we cut the wrong branch.
[20:43.920 --> 20:47.520]  Yeah, we kept coming back to thinking, there's got to be a better way.
[20:47.600 --> 20:54.900]  This has to be like four geometry problems and like a whole bunch of calculus and done.
[20:55.820 --> 20:59.660]  Lily writes, I am jamming to the song at the end of this week's episode.
[20:59.660 --> 21:03.120]  Would you please share what you know about that?
[21:03.240 --> 21:04.340]  So that was Kraftwerk, I believe.
[21:05.020 --> 21:06.220]  Computer... what was it?
[21:06.280 --> 21:07.040]  Computer something?
[21:07.560 --> 21:08.260]  Computer World.
[21:08.360 --> 21:08.940]  Computer World.
[21:09.160 --> 21:09.520]  Yeah.
[21:10.780 --> 21:12.140]  So, look... sorry.
[21:12.700 --> 21:16.300]  Our Alexa device, it's woke word is computer.
[21:16.540 --> 21:19.020]  So every time you say computer, it's going to answer.
[21:19.200 --> 21:20.400]  So let's not say that word anymore.
[21:20.620 --> 21:21.240]  Stop saying that.
[21:21.420 --> 21:22.640]  Well, I didn't say it that time.
[21:22.740 --> 21:23.200]  All right, let's focus.
[21:23.240 --> 21:24.800]  But yeah, that's the song.
[21:24.980 --> 21:27.160]  We're not going to say it again, but Kraftwerk, spelled with a K.
[21:27.820 --> 21:31.520]  And finally, you're off the hook from Colin.
[21:31.780 --> 21:35.460]  Someone mentioned on the December 2nd show that MCI doesn't exist anymore.
[21:35.680 --> 21:36.180]  You're half right.
[21:36.800 --> 21:41.460]  Verizon bought them in 2006, but they still operate as their own brand.
[21:41.720 --> 21:43.940]  Go to MCI.com to see that.
[21:44.440 --> 21:55.660]  However, if you call 1-800-444-4444, you're greeted by a recording that says, thank you for calling MCI before it reads back your phone number.
[21:55.740 --> 21:56.720]  That still works.
[21:58.200 --> 21:58.820]  That's amazing.
[21:58.940 --> 21:59.480]  I tried it before.
[21:59.500 --> 22:00.220]  It does work.
[22:00.800 --> 22:10.720]  So people used to call that all the time when they wanted to find out what their phone number was, which, believe it or not, was something a lot of hackers knew how to do and most other people didn't.
[22:10.900 --> 22:12.680]  Now, you just call someone else's cell phone.
[22:12.680 --> 22:13.480]  You see your phone number.
[22:13.720 --> 22:14.400]  It's easy.
[22:14.500 --> 22:22.360]  But you used to have to call 958 or 511 or various other three-digit codes to find out what your phone number was.
[22:22.360 --> 22:24.940]  It was a big secret amongst the populace.
[22:25.020 --> 22:29.740]  Hackers had these little pearls of knowledge, and most of them have gone away.
[22:29.740 --> 22:34.280]  We used to have the callback exchanges, which out here was 230, 250.
[22:34.540 --> 22:35.920]  In New York City, it was 660.
[22:36.140 --> 22:43.980]  You'd enter either 660 and the last four digits or the last seven digits of the phone number, hang up, pick up again, hang up, and it would ring.
[22:44.120 --> 22:45.460]  And that was really cool.
[22:45.700 --> 22:50.880]  We had an exchange out here called 480, where you would dial it and your phone would go out of service for about five minutes.
[22:51.420 --> 22:52.620]  450 was even worse.
[22:52.760 --> 22:53.920]  It would go out for about a half hour.
[22:54.180 --> 22:55.700]  These were very handy to have.
[22:56.080 --> 22:57.440]  All these magical exchanges.
[22:57.940 --> 22:59.860]  They don't exist anymore.
[23:00.060 --> 23:01.660]  But I'm sure there are other things out there.
[23:01.760 --> 23:07.060]  A lot of people were feedbacking last week after the show saying, yeah, the magic has gone away.
[23:07.440 --> 23:16.160]  I got to tell you, when we were putting out 2600 in the mid-80s, 1985, our second year, people were saying then, the magic is gone.
[23:16.160 --> 23:23.640]  And our second year, people are always saying that, just like they're always saying today's music is nothing like the old days.
[23:24.200 --> 23:26.980]  There's always going to be something new, always something fun to explore.
[23:27.140 --> 23:38.800]  When stuff's underrated like that, there's just more to explore and more that's abandoned and more nooks and crannies and unexplored territory because it's dismissed.
[23:38.800 --> 23:57.440]  It's thrown and tossed aside and for the rubbish bins of history, as they say, all of that knowledge doesn't still apply, especially when they're really large, unwieldy systems that we rely on.
[23:57.440 --> 24:14.420]  And it's a process that people should explore and document because the more it's forgotten, you tend to lose access and applying the principles as any less valuable and so forth.
[24:14.420 --> 24:16.200]  That is really a lot of fun as well.
[24:16.280 --> 24:27.460]  That is what the hacker community has always been about, is preserving that history of technology, learning from it, building something better, and just doing as many experiments as you possibly can.
[24:27.640 --> 24:36.880]  We had so much fun when we were putting together the Hacker Digest, which basically encompassed all of 2600 Magazine from the beginning until now on a yearly basis.
[24:36.880 --> 24:43.580]  Because reading articles from 20, 30 years ago is as fascinating as reading them when they first come out.
[24:43.580 --> 24:49.300]  Because you're seeing how people were dealing with technology, what the challenges were then, how things have changed.
[24:49.780 --> 24:57.040]  And it's fascinating to hear just like it's fascinating to hear an old radio program or TV program or newscast or something like that.
[24:57.140 --> 25:02.440]  You can always learn and always find that new bit to explore, to experiment with.
[25:02.440 --> 25:04.740]  So hacking is never going to die.
[25:04.740 --> 25:07.340]  It's always just going to morph into something else.
[25:07.340 --> 25:09.740]  But that spirit, that spirit is going to last.
[25:10.600 --> 25:11.480]  What do you think, Alex?
[25:12.560 --> 25:12.780]  Yeah.
[25:13.040 --> 25:13.880]  I mean, absolutely.
[25:13.880 --> 25:15.620]  I think that that's correct.
[25:15.860 --> 25:17.200]  Thank you for calling MCI.
[25:17.800 --> 25:19.740]  Our system indicates you are calling from...
[25:19.740 --> 25:22.240]  Do you really want to give out your phone number over the air, Alex?
[25:22.460 --> 25:23.280]  How could you guys do?
[25:23.540 --> 25:23.700]  Yeah.
[25:23.760 --> 25:24.280]  What's going on?
[25:25.380 --> 25:31.460]  You know, speaking of which though, you know, some of this stuff is still relevant from 30 years ago.
[25:31.460 --> 25:33.080]  Some of the same tricks still work.
[25:33.200 --> 25:36.460]  I mean, think about calling, you know, your regular exchange plus...
[25:36.980 --> 25:38.860]  Do you remember 9970, Emmanuel?
[25:39.040 --> 25:39.180]  Yes.
[25:39.500 --> 25:39.720]  Okay.
[25:39.940 --> 25:40.820]  No, test me on this.
[25:40.960 --> 25:43.260]  9970 was the always busy suffix.
[25:43.520 --> 25:47.700]  So if you would call an exchange and end with 9970, it would be busy.
[25:48.380 --> 25:50.060]  9971 would be a fast busy.
[25:50.560 --> 25:50.940]  That's right.
[25:51.020 --> 25:53.740]  These were phone company test numbers, 99XX.
[25:54.000 --> 25:55.920]  And what about 9901?
[25:56.660 --> 26:02.000]  9901 would get you a verification recording saying something like, congratulations, you've reached the Williamsburg DMS.
[26:02.580 --> 26:06.980]  And it would list the exchanges that were in that particular central office of the phone company.
[26:07.160 --> 26:11.640]  Only in New York, I think, or the 9X region did that work.
[26:11.760 --> 26:17.000]  Maybe in other parts of the country, but I thought it was really cool how you could check out exchanges and learn.
[26:17.000 --> 26:19.400]  You know, you keep charts, you make maps.
[26:19.820 --> 26:21.440]  And it was fascinating.
[26:21.660 --> 26:22.280]  Great way to learn.
[26:23.080 --> 26:23.860]  Yeah, it really is.
[26:23.900 --> 26:26.200]  And frankly, I'm impressed that you remember all of these.
[26:26.400 --> 26:28.380]  And what about 9945?
[26:28.700 --> 26:29.660]  Do you remember 9945?
[26:30.140 --> 26:30.580]  9945.
[26:31.420 --> 26:33.840]  I know 9979 was a sweep tone.
[26:35.100 --> 26:39.160]  And 9950 would go to the central office before they changed those phone numbers.
[26:39.680 --> 26:40.120]  9945?
[26:40.560 --> 26:41.580]  No, I don't think I know that one.
[26:42.360 --> 26:44.600]  9945 was a weird test tone.
[26:44.600 --> 26:44.960]  Okay.
[26:45.500 --> 26:47.600]  It would be sort of like an up-and-down tone.
[26:47.740 --> 26:49.640]  It was probably very similar to a sweep tone, too.
[26:49.760 --> 26:55.700]  But it was another one of these strange test lines that was associated with whatever the switch was.
[26:56.260 --> 26:56.780]  Interesting.
[26:57.420 --> 27:00.860]  There are all kinds of weird anomalies you'll still find.
[27:01.120 --> 27:08.400]  In fact, I demonstrated this the other day for some friends, because you have to do what you can to entertain people.
[27:08.420 --> 27:15.900]  I called a busy number, and I got a recording saying, the line is busy, but you can have Bell Atlantic keep trying for a charge of 75 cents.
[27:16.200 --> 27:18.740]  Bell Atlantic hasn't existed in how many years now?
[27:19.280 --> 27:22.980]  It's been over a decade, and that recording still exists.
[27:23.160 --> 27:24.660]  There are other recordings you can find.
[27:24.700 --> 27:30.820]  They're hidden away in various parts, and you can still go scanning and find all kinds of magical things out there.
[27:30.820 --> 27:32.960]  So the magic never goes away.
[27:33.140 --> 27:34.800]  It's always there in some form.
[27:35.140 --> 27:38.360]  Hey, let's talk about some of the news today.
[27:38.480 --> 27:44.340]  First, I also want to give out the phone number for the radio station to pledge to keep this place on the air.
[27:44.500 --> 27:53.240]  If you've enjoyed hearing some of our trips down memory lane or some of the technology we talk about, please give a call to 516-620-3602.
[27:53.440 --> 27:54.440]  Pledge whatever you can afford.
[27:54.540 --> 27:56.800]  Become a BAI buddy where you pay a little bit every month.
[27:57.260 --> 27:59.080]  Keep WBAI on the air.
[27:59.080 --> 28:10.880]  I remember a year ago when we were taken over, and we weren't on the air, and it was replaced by recordings, and the future was dire, and all the TV stations and all the newspapers came and wrote our epitaphs.
[28:10.940 --> 28:12.160]  And it was terrible.
[28:12.340 --> 28:12.960]  It was awful.
[28:12.960 --> 28:14.420]  But we fought back.
[28:14.600 --> 28:19.080]  We fought back in the courts, in the streets, in the cafes, various places.
[28:19.100 --> 28:21.320]  So we wouldn't be able to fight back now, I guess.
[28:21.440 --> 28:22.340]  It would have been much more difficult.
[28:22.800 --> 28:24.220]  But we got the station back.
[28:24.380 --> 28:26.000]  We're back on the air despite all the odds.
[28:26.000 --> 28:29.440]  Since 1960, WBAI has existed despite the odds.
[28:29.580 --> 28:34.300]  If that's not a story of hacker resilience, I don't know what is.
[28:34.600 --> 28:35.960]  You can be a part of that.
[28:36.120 --> 28:49.280]  You can vote and invest in WBAI by calling 516-620-3602 or going to give to the number two, WBAI.org, and pledging there.
[28:49.420 --> 28:51.260]  And it's a painless experience.
[28:52.280 --> 28:53.540]  It will make you feel good.
[28:53.540 --> 29:02.280]  And you'll be keeping probably the most experimental and longest lived radio station in New York City on the air.
[29:02.380 --> 29:04.520]  And I don't think you can do anything better than that.
[29:04.620 --> 29:09.740]  Again, 516-620-3602 or give to WBAI.org.
[29:09.740 --> 29:16.200]  And please mention, Off the Hook is your favorite radio show, if it is, which I assume it could be if you're listening.
[29:17.780 --> 29:23.820]  You can also SMS WBAI to 41444.
[29:24.260 --> 29:25.560]  And you'll get a reply.
[29:25.560 --> 29:27.400]  And I guess it will ask you some questions.
[29:27.700 --> 29:27.840]  Yep.
[29:28.000 --> 29:30.720]  Use that link and contribute what you can.
[29:30.960 --> 29:47.000]  Any contribution to this form of community radio is so welcome and appreciated for the operating costs, for the administration and all of the programming and work that goes into airing our program behind the scenes.
[29:47.360 --> 29:48.080]  So thank you.
[29:48.120 --> 29:54.940]  Thank you in advance for becoming a BAI buddy and sending us a little bit of your financial dollars.
[29:55.180 --> 30:00.140]  Now, here's a rather disturbing story that we just got wind of.
[30:00.140 --> 30:16.780]  Do you remember about eight months ago, there was this woman named Rebecca Jones who stood up against the Florida Department of Health by refusing to manipulate the data to justify reopening the state early.
[30:17.680 --> 30:29.460]  She basically was being asked by the state authorities or told by the state authorities to manipulate the data in such a way that the numbers would be lower than they actually were.
[30:29.460 --> 30:30.860]  She refused to do that.
[30:31.260 --> 30:39.960]  Well, Florida State Police have now raided her home and seized the equipment she was using to maintain a new independent COVID-19 tracker of her own.
[30:40.800 --> 30:43.220]  What in God's name is going on in Florida?
[30:44.680 --> 30:49.080]  Her tweet the other day simply said there will be no update today.
[30:49.200 --> 30:49.980]  At 8.30 a.m.
[30:50.000 --> 30:53.720]  this morning, State Police came into my house and took all my hardware and tech.
[30:53.760 --> 30:58.440]  They were serving a warrant on my computer after DOH filed a complaint, Department of Health.
[30:58.440 --> 31:00.100]  They pointed a gun in my face.
[31:00.220 --> 31:01.680]  They pointed guns at my kids.
[31:03.160 --> 31:07.940]  And as hackers, we are well aware of that kind of behavior on the part of law enforcement.
[31:08.160 --> 31:14.440]  But this, for somebody who was a whistleblower, somebody who was trying to report the truth...
[31:16.060 --> 31:17.740]  Alex, what do you think they're after here?
[31:17.760 --> 31:18.400]  What are they trying to do?
[31:19.220 --> 31:21.700]  It sounds a lot like intimidation to me.
[31:24.120 --> 31:27.460]  I'm sort of hesitant to pass judgment on this.
[31:27.700 --> 31:38.560]  It does seem rather heavy handed the way in which they went about this, given that there doesn't appear to be any imminent threat that she was posing to anybody to go in there with guns blazing.
[31:38.560 --> 31:45.080]  And it's something that FDLE or the Florida Department of Law Enforcement should have really reconsidered before they did that.
[31:45.280 --> 31:54.300]  I'm not really clear as to what the exact charges are against this woman and the nature of the allegations that would support those charges.
[31:54.300 --> 32:00.420]  So it all seems to me, at this point, like it's a very heavy dose of intimidation.
[32:00.520 --> 32:03.320]  But I do want to reserve judgment on it because there...
[32:03.320 --> 32:18.340]  I guess it's possible that FDLE, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement or the local district attorney's office there could have alleged that perhaps she stole certain trade secret information or walked away with certain types of proprietary technology.
[32:18.340 --> 32:29.800]  Or, you know, look, you know, turning the tables on this, making the accusations for which one may oneself be guilty is not out of the realm of possibility here.
[32:29.800 --> 32:48.800]  It's quite possible, and in all likelihood, I think probable, that she will be charged with spreading some kind of false rumors about the virus or spreading false information about statistics and infection rates and things like that, simply because she refused to fall in line.
[32:49.000 --> 32:58.820]  I mean, we talked about this last week with Chris Krebs, people that refuse to fall in line and do the bidding of whatever the administration is are going to be on their target list.
[32:58.820 --> 33:03.760]  And so I think this is certainly a case that needs to be watched very closely.
[33:04.360 --> 33:07.440]  It's staggering to me to see this kind of thing happening.
[33:07.600 --> 33:16.180]  Somebody who is reporting the truth, showing that the false numbers were being reported by the state authorities, and now she's the problem.
[33:16.300 --> 33:21.380]  Now she's the one that is having her home raided and is living in fear.
[33:21.580 --> 33:23.400]  We live in some kind of bizarro world.
[33:23.400 --> 33:28.380]  The other day, I heard a meeting of the health department in Idaho.
[33:28.540 --> 33:37.220]  I might have some of the facts wrong here, but a meeting of the health department in Idaho had to be canceled because anti-mask people were trying to kick in the doors outside.
[33:37.220 --> 33:46.280]  This is some science fiction material that I would not believe because it just seems so far-fetched.
[33:46.320 --> 33:48.480]  But here it is happening right in front of us.
[33:49.260 --> 33:49.820]  Unbelievable.
[33:51.360 --> 33:51.500]  All right.
[33:51.600 --> 33:54.160]  Well, joining us right now is Dr. Welton Chang.
[33:54.640 --> 34:02.440]  Welton is the chief technology officer of an organization that you probably have heard of known as Human Rights First.
[34:03.120 --> 34:11.700]  Before that, he was a researcher at Johns Hopkins, where he led efforts to develop technical solutions to fight disinformation and online propaganda.
[34:12.220 --> 34:12.880]  Sounds familiar.
[34:13.760 --> 34:21.180]  And before that, Welton was an intelligence officer with the Defense Intelligence Agency and received his Ph.D.
[34:21.280 --> 34:24.520]  from the University of Pennsylvania, as well as an M.A.
[34:24.600 --> 34:26.320]  from Georgetown and a B.A.
[34:26.380 --> 34:26.800]  from Dartmouth.
[34:26.800 --> 34:27.520]  My God.
[34:27.640 --> 34:31.200]  You have so, so much in the way of credentials here.
[34:31.680 --> 34:32.380]  Welton, thank you.
[34:32.500 --> 34:34.540]  And welcome to Off the Hook.
[34:36.540 --> 34:39.460]  Thanks for having me, Emmanuel, Kyle, and Alex.
[34:39.680 --> 34:43.220]  This is an absolute honor to be on the show.
[34:43.550 --> 34:48.340]  And I have been looking forward to this conversation for some time now.
[34:48.440 --> 34:51.060]  Now, I understand you and Alex already know each other.
[34:51.060 --> 34:54.460]  It dates back, what, 17 years in Dartmouth, was it?
[34:56.220 --> 34:56.980]  Yeah.
[34:57.220 --> 35:02.340]  It's hard to believe how long ago we've met.
[35:03.080 --> 35:22.880]  And in listening to the show and some of the voicemails that you were playing earlier, you know, I want to say that 2600 and the hacker ethos and principles were something that inspired me growing up.
[35:23.060 --> 35:29.620]  And I'm a little bit younger than most of the folks here.
[35:29.620 --> 35:41.160]  But this is absolutely, you know, I think, the community that we want to try to engage and bring into the global struggle for human rights.
[35:42.040 --> 35:42.800]  Yes, Alex.
[35:43.520 --> 35:43.680]  Yeah.
[35:43.880 --> 35:49.840]  You know, adding to that, you know, Welton is a little bit younger than me, thankfully.
[35:50.140 --> 35:52.000]  Also looks like he hasn't aged very much.
[35:52.100 --> 35:55.540]  He has more credentials than all of us put together, yet he's younger than all of us.
[35:55.620 --> 35:56.300]  How is that possible?
[35:57.320 --> 35:58.060]  That's true.
[35:58.060 --> 35:59.040]  Time travel.
[35:59.680 --> 36:00.160]  Exactly.
[36:00.740 --> 36:04.040]  But Welton was an undergraduate at Dartmouth where we met.
[36:04.400 --> 36:07.240]  And we actually met first as colleagues and then became friends.
[36:07.440 --> 36:12.420]  I was in law school at Vermont Law, which is about 30 minutes away from Dartmouth or so.
[36:12.540 --> 36:22.340]  But being a social character that I am and sort of, you know, very compulsive about studying, I actually hated studying in my law school's library because it was too much like a social hour.
[36:22.440 --> 36:38.700]  So I used to go over to Dartmouth, study over there, sneak into their library, and it became very easy to do because both Welton and I were research associates or, you know, young intern type research associates at a place called the Institute for Security Technology Studies at Dartmouth,
[36:38.920 --> 36:43.500]  which was a... I think it's called now the Institute for Security Technology and Society.
[36:44.000 --> 36:45.620]  Everything's for society these days.
[36:45.620 --> 36:52.460]  But it was a federally funded think tank that focused on cybersecurity and some counterterrorism research that we were doing.
[36:52.460 --> 36:55.360]  And that's where we originally worked together 17 years ago.
[36:56.020 --> 36:56.420]  Amazing.
[36:57.080 --> 37:02.140]  Welton, can you tell us something about what Human Rights First is and what your role is there?
[37:03.520 --> 37:04.080]  Yeah.
[37:04.360 --> 37:11.800]  So Human Rights First, we're a 42-year-old human rights organization headquartered in New York City.
[37:12.040 --> 37:14.840]  We have offices in Washington, D.C.
[37:15.080 --> 37:16.660]  and L.A., as you would expect.
[37:16.660 --> 37:24.180]  We are known for our work in the asylum space.
[37:24.240 --> 37:43.200]  We provide direct services to asylum seekers and we do a lot of work to hold the United States government, you know, up to the American ideals and, you know, the founding freedoms that we've all come to, well, many of us have come to believe in.
[37:43.900 --> 37:46.140]  We're an independent advocacy organization.
[37:46.720 --> 37:51.000]  We are developing capabilities to do more direct action.
[37:51.320 --> 37:59.680]  That's direct action in the courts and direct action through what I'm happy to, you know, kind of announce here.
[37:59.680 --> 38:04.520]  We're going to be publicly rolling out an innovation lab at HRF.
[38:04.520 --> 38:10.660]  So that's what I've been working on at the organization for the last almost year and a half now.
[38:11.440 --> 38:25.260]  And one of the, you know, interesting things, I think, is last June when we first started to think about, you know, tech and human rights.
[38:25.260 --> 38:30.140]  And at that point, I was still at Johns Hopkins.
[38:32.140 --> 38:46.680]  You know, I think that there were a lot of things happening in the world that got people thinking about how important it is to better enable human rights organizations, human rights defenders with more capable technology.
[38:47.980 --> 38:56.180]  And the, I think the, one of the interesting things there was, you know, I started hearing this.
[38:56.820 --> 39:16.280]  I gave a very, very kind of brief presentation about some of the issues that were, you know, basically leading to tyrants and authoritarians around the world, better able to consolidate their power as a result of the technologies they were able to harness to do that.
[39:18.180 --> 39:30.560]  And I think part of this was also the evolution of, you know, my own thinking through the global war on terror, which, you know, I was, I guess, a part of in some way.
[39:30.560 --> 39:46.620]  And then, you know, through that time and seeing how, you know, the structures that I think maybe folks in your audience, maybe you yourselves kind of have, are decrying now in terms of the restrictions that we put around the internet.
[39:46.620 --> 40:03.520]  And the original founding ideals of, the egalitarian ideals of the internet kind of disappearing to the point where we have a world where, you know, it's largely controlled by corporate interests.
[40:03.780 --> 40:13.740]  There are digital surveillance companies popping up left and right that are providing technologies to the governments of China and Russia and elsewhere.
[40:13.740 --> 40:25.700]  And, um, we're seeing a world emerge before our very eyes that, uh, very much qualifies, you know, um, in, in the 1984 sense.
[40:26.260 --> 40:27.720]  Um, and that's scary.
[40:27.920 --> 40:39.980]  Um, and that's something that I think I looked at and I said to myself, I want to be a part of a group of folks who are going to fight back against that reality, that eventuality.
[40:40.280 --> 40:45.320]  And, um, I want to take my, my skills to, to HR have to do that.
[40:45.460 --> 40:50.540]  How much of a role do you see technology playing in the concept of human rights?
[40:52.280 --> 40:54.220]  Um, I think it's absolutely essential.
[40:54.460 --> 41:14.590]  Um, and it is in some ways, I think the primary driver for a lot of the, um, erosion of, um, our, our innate rights as, as people, uh, that's giving up our, our rights to privacy.
[41:15.250 --> 41:28.950]  Um, it's giving up our rights to be free from, you know, hate speech and disinformation and, uh, you know, article 19 of the university declaration of your rights talks about being able to access information freely.
[41:28.950 --> 41:49.070]  Um, but there's no, um, there's no, there's no clause in the UDHR that says like everyone has a right to, to have access to the internet and not just access to the internet, but unfettered access, not mediated, moderated by, um, corporate interests, whether that be ISPs or Facebook or some other,
[41:49.290 --> 41:50.330]  um, organization.
[41:51.190 --> 42:05.570]  Uh, and, you know, uh, and, you know, I think that, uh, uh, growing up in, so, so I'm going to give a little bit about myself away here, you know, I was, I was born in the early eighties.
[42:05.930 --> 42:19.470]  Uh, so, you know, when you guys were doing, doing your early work, uh, I was non-existent and, um, in the nineties, what did I spend my time doing?
[42:19.470 --> 42:19.850]  Right.
[42:20.110 --> 42:23.950]  Like trying to find, figure out ways to get free access to AOL.
[42:24.350 --> 42:24.450]  Right.
[42:24.570 --> 42:25.250]  And wow.
[42:25.390 --> 42:27.410]  How do you stretch your, how do you stretch your minutes?
[42:27.970 --> 42:34.870]  Um, how do you, you know, daisy chain the, those CDs that you got in the mail together so that you can continue talking to your friends?
[42:34.870 --> 42:37.270]  Were you on our voice PBS maybe in the 1990s?
[42:37.450 --> 42:38.870]  Do you remember calling in?
[42:40.070 --> 42:49.430]  Uh, you know, I, I don't, but I will say that, um, in 95, so I was, uh, almost a teen.
[42:49.470 --> 42:50.390]  I was a teenager at that point.
[42:51.090 --> 42:55.490]  And like a lot of other people watched hackers on laser disc.
[42:55.770 --> 42:55.910]  Wow.
[42:57.150 --> 43:01.690]  Um, as absolutely, you know, hack the planet, all that stuff.
[43:01.890 --> 43:06.550]  I, I said to myself, this is, you know, kind of, uh, this is exciting.
[43:06.730 --> 43:15.790]  And I remember my friends and I talking about, um, you know, I mean, we were making names up for ourselves and, you know, what would your hacker name be?
[43:15.990 --> 43:16.110]  Right.
[43:16.190 --> 43:18.090]  And I'm sure you guys are laughing about this.
[43:18.090 --> 43:22.170]  Um, and yeah, I mean, what were we doing?
[43:22.370 --> 43:23.830]  What were we spending our time doing at that point?
[43:23.970 --> 43:31.170]  We were trying to figure out how to share, you know, homework and, you know, answers to extra credit online in anonymous forums.
[43:31.490 --> 43:31.590]  Right.
[43:31.910 --> 43:41.790]  Um, because we were, you know, in middle school and high school at that point and trying to understand and live in a world that was becoming more and more connected.
[43:41.790 --> 43:47.270]  Um, and you know, when I graduated from, um, from college, that's when Facebook got its start.
[43:47.430 --> 43:50.570]  Uh, and you know, we live, we live in that world now.
[43:50.890 --> 43:52.150]  So, so incredible.
[43:52.390 --> 44:01.910]  I think anyone, um, listening in the past or currently who may have doubted, uh, what, what hackers can do, what people in the hacker community can do.
[44:02.370 --> 44:11.690]  Uh, just look at, uh, Dr. Welton Chang, uh, the CTO of, uh, human rights first, after, um, uh, trying to figure out how to get AOL for free.
[44:11.790 --> 44:13.390]  Back in, back in the day.
[44:14.050 --> 44:20.190]  There's all kinds of good that comes out of, um, of, of thinking freely and, and exploring and, and things like that.
[44:20.350 --> 44:21.270]  And, and just questioning.
[44:21.570 --> 44:22.350]  And that's what it's all about.
[44:22.790 --> 44:23.250]  Go ahead, Alex.
[44:23.770 --> 44:24.190]  Yeah.
[44:24.470 --> 44:30.330]  And, and, and I think, you know, Welton's work is, is very, very far from done.
[44:30.490 --> 44:38.870]  I know a lot of our listeners are, are, had their interest incredibly piqued when you mentioned the innovation lab and some of the work that human rights first is going to be doing there.
[44:38.870 --> 44:43.750]  So, you know, you've got a background, Welton, in, in combating disinformation and misinformation.
[44:43.750 --> 44:58.770]  This is obviously such a hot topic, becoming a compliance obligation of a lot of companies and, and, and these platforms, you know, obviously you mentioned Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Twitter, of course, you know, rife with misinformation.
[44:58.770 --> 45:15.590]  Um, could you talk about some of the initiatives that the innovation lab is, is, is, is going to, uh, implement with respect to misinformation or disinformation, if there are any, uh, and, and perhaps, you know, combating extremism, things like that as well.
[45:16.230 --> 45:17.630]  Yeah, absolutely.
[45:18.170 --> 45:30.710]  Um, we are watching this problem evolve before our eyes every day, as we have to use these platforms to interact with one another, to get our word out.
[45:32.170 --> 45:35.450]  It's been accelerated as a result of the pandemic.
[45:36.330 --> 45:41.310]  We're in a world now where it's harder and harder to actually have face-to-face interactions.
[45:41.310 --> 45:50.550]  I mean, Alex, I think we've been talking about, you know, trying to get together for an actual meeting, you know, for some time and, and not being able to do that.
[45:50.770 --> 45:50.910]  Right.
[45:51.290 --> 45:59.370]  Um, so, so we are so incredibly dependent on, um, a mediated form of connection.
[45:59.370 --> 46:01.190]  And what does that mean?
[46:01.390 --> 46:22.870]  It means that we, unfortunately are subject to, we're essentially bystanders in this, um, information struggle between nation states, um, and even worse, I think, highly empowered non-state actors, um, the far right extremists who are using these platforms to,
[46:22.870 --> 46:43.650]  um, mainstream ideas that in the past, you know, were confined to garages and, uh, you know, midnight parking lot meetings where folks would break their hoods out and, you know, get together and whisper to each other about, um, you know, what their true feelings and beliefs were.
[46:43.970 --> 47:06.550]  Um, and I think that human rights organizations, civil rights organizations, and, you know, there are, um, many great organizations doing work in this space and trying to hold the social media companies accountable, uh, where we see our direct input is leveraging data science skills.
[47:06.730 --> 47:24.770]  So it's not just me, it's, um, members of my team, technology team who have skills in understanding and, uh, building tools to better, uh, go through social media traffic to figure out, you know, who's what, who's saying what, which narratives are catching fire,
[47:24.990 --> 47:30.870]  which, um, areas are, uh, we should focus on, you know, that's where we're going to bring our value at.
[47:31.050 --> 47:44.870]  Um, and we're going to go beyond the, the, uh, trying, we will do advocacy as well, but I think direct action, doing the research, understanding the networks and surfacing that information to people.
[47:45.150 --> 47:48.330]  Um, that's, that's where our, our bread and butter is going to be.
[47:48.330 --> 48:01.030]  So is this going to help, uh, augment the core mission of HRF or is it to sort of broaden the scope given the, uh, chaotic climate in media and news and social media?
[48:01.210 --> 48:12.890]  So is this broadening, I guess, the scope of the mission of HRF or just helping, uh, augment the current narrow focus or, or, uh, specific focus or underpinnings?
[48:13.470 --> 48:14.590]  Can you speak more?
[48:14.590 --> 48:17.490]  We're going to, yeah, Kyle, we're going to do both.
[48:17.830 --> 48:34.350]  Um, I think the lab has significant internal functions that include building technology tools to, for example, help our efforts in, um, uh, figuring out whether or not global sanctions are working against human rights abusers.
[48:34.350 --> 48:41.250]  So that's a major program that human rights first is, um, proud to have, um, you know, under its belt.
[48:41.350 --> 48:46.670]  Uh, it's run by, uh, Rob Brzezinski, our senior vice president for foreign policy.
[48:46.870 --> 48:55.970]  Um, you know, Rob's team, it leads a coalition of 200 something NGOs that, uh, focus on the global Magnitsky sanctions.
[48:55.970 --> 49:16.830]  And so we're not just going to, you know, say, interact with the human rights defense community and, um, build tools to help them, but we're also going to look at what's going on internal to the organization and see if we can also bring to bear, uh, partnerships and tools to help everyone,
[49:16.830 --> 49:18.370]  uh, do their work better.
[49:18.370 --> 49:26.690]  And that also goes towards, you know, counteracting some of the, um, disinformation around the Southern border, uh, around refugees.
[49:26.750 --> 49:36.410]  And, you know, like earlier this year, we saw a lot of, um, information being spread about the folks coming across the border, bringing COVID, which, uh, I'm sorry to say, but COVID's here.
[49:36.730 --> 49:42.930]  And now if you're crossing the border, uh, I'm afraid you have a greater chance of getting COVID while you're in the United States than anywhere else.
[49:42.930 --> 49:43.270]  Right.
[49:43.630 --> 49:44.370]  So certainly true.
[49:44.370 --> 49:48.890]  We're speaking with Dr. Weldon Chang's, uh, chief technology officer of human rights.
[49:49.110 --> 49:59.110]  First, uh, I mentioned before we are going to be taking phone calls and we will be doing that starting at eight o'clock on our YouTube channel, channel 2600.
[49:59.310 --> 50:08.090]  Uh, the phone number to call at eight o'clock, not before then is area code 802-321-4225.
[50:08.090 --> 50:10.830]  That's 802-321-HACK.
[50:11.290 --> 50:12.950]  Yes, we got that phone number.
[50:13.150 --> 50:17.710]  802-321-4225, eight o'clock, we will take phone calls.
[50:17.830 --> 50:23.570]  It will be streamed over channel 2600 on YouTube and, uh, hopefully archived.
[50:23.710 --> 50:29.810]  We're going to try this so that we can actually take phone calls, uh, which we haven't been able to do because, uh, we're not in the studio.
[50:30.210 --> 50:35.110]  Uh, and, um, and, and you can be part of this conversation for, for a few minutes anyway.
[50:35.950 --> 50:37.170]  Uh, Alex, yes, you had a question.
[50:37.170 --> 50:50.930]  Yeah, building on what Welton was saying, I think that the initiatives that Human Rights First are taking at Welton's behalf and that he's spearheading with Human Rights First are, of course, you know, really near and dear to the hacker community's heart,
[50:51.070 --> 50:51.230]  too.
[50:51.230 --> 51:03.810]  If you, if you, if you think about going back to the, the original hope back in 1994, hackers have been trying to counteract the privacy invasive activities of repressive regimes, right?
[51:03.810 --> 51:05.910]  I mean, this goes back literally to 1994.
[51:06.450 --> 51:21.370]  Think about, you know, the, the last hope that we had where we were talking about, uh, well, the last in-person hope, where, um, there was a, a, a huge number of talks, I feel like, at least five or six, that were all about extremism online, trying to identify extremism,
[51:21.510 --> 51:25.170]  trying to combat it, identify it, uh, and put an end to it.
[51:25.170 --> 51:29.510]  And so, you know, I, I think, you know, we're getting sort of towards the end of the hour here, too.
[51:29.690 --> 51:37.730]  So, so Welton, I want to ask you, how, how can people stay in touch with Human Rights First and, and, uh, and, and maintain this, this kind of enthusiasm?
[51:37.750 --> 51:42.010]  Because I know the hacker community is, that all of these issues are near and dear to their heart.
[51:43.270 --> 51:49.250]  Yeah, so next year, we're going to be publicly announcing, rolling out the Innovation Lab formally.
[51:50.250 --> 51:54.090]  We will have, um, more details about how the lab's going to function.
[51:54.090 --> 52:12.690]  But we definitely want to engage values-aligned technologists with our organization and link those people with skills, and most of all, with the wherewithal and the political will to, um, assist with issues that we're hearing from people in, you know,
[52:12.710 --> 52:29.610]  folks in Hong Kong, folks in Belarus, who we, you know, engage with Egypt, um, and other places, where, you know, So, I think, oftentimes, you, you, you interact with human rights defenders on the ground there, and their needs are very simple.
[52:30.190 --> 52:42.430]  And, um, you know, they may not seem simple for, for folks, you know, who are in the thick of things, but, um, there are off-the-shelf solutions that they may not be aware of that we want to get out to them.
[52:42.430 --> 52:48.670]  Um, and that it could also be open-source technologies that, um, we can, we can repurpose for, for their use.
[52:48.670 --> 53:00.130]  So, having that reach-back capability, um, the, the kind of ability to directly assist people in need, that's one of the ways in which we see the Innovation Lab working, uh, as a, as a hub-and-spoke.
[53:00.890 --> 53:03.230]  Dr. Weldon Chang, thank you so much for joining us tonight.
[53:03.570 --> 53:07.870]  Uh, again, we're going to be continuing the conversation on our YouTube channel, Channel 2600.
[53:08.310 --> 53:16.410]  Uh, you can call us, uh, to, to become part of this conversation, or to just check in and, and, uh, let us know how you're doing in the months that we haven't talked to you.
[53:16.410 --> 53:21.090]  The phone number, again, is 802-321-4225.
[53:22.550 --> 53:26.250]  And you can, of course, write to us, O-T-H, at 2600.com.
[53:26.370 --> 53:27.410]  We hope to see you on YouTube.
[53:27.870 --> 53:28.510]  Good night.
[53:28.870 --> 53:33.750]  Only people know just how to talk to the people.
[53:36.190 --> 53:40.470]  Only people know just how to change the world.
[53:43.350 --> 53:44.390]  Only people
[53:56.580 --> 53:58.300]  will let you know.
[53:58.600 --> 53:59.820]  How we try.
[54:01.400 --> 54:03.700]  Millions of tears that we cry.
[54:05.060 --> 54:06.260]  Now we are here.
[54:06.800 --> 54:08.040]  We'll be through the trick.
[54:08.320 --> 54:10.880]  And we can't be denied.
[54:11.900 --> 54:14.980]  With women and men side by side.
[54:16.380 --> 54:17.440]  No mistake.
[54:17.800 --> 54:19.800]  It's how you make it.
[54:20.260 --> 54:21.700]  Make it, make it.
[54:21.740 --> 54:22.340]  I need
[54:33.180 --> 54:33.700]  people.
[54:33.960 --> 54:37.180]  I know just how to talk to the people.
[54:39.000 --> 54:44.560]  Only people know just how to change the world.
[54:46.440 --> 54:51.320]  Only people will realize the power of
[54:56.150 --> 54:57.310]  heaven won't.
[54:57.510 --> 54:58.430]  So come on.
[54:59.450 --> 54:59.970]  With you.
[55:01.190 --> 55:03.870]  Well, it's long overdue.
[56:28.230 --> 56:30.270]  We live in complicated times.
[56:30.630 --> 56:33.490]  Sometimes it seems like important voices get left out.
[56:33.710 --> 56:36.150]  And sometimes it's hard to know who to trust.
[56:36.350 --> 56:37.650]  But one thing's for sure.
[56:37.850 --> 56:44.910]  For more than 60 years, WBAI has been your go-to for independent, non-commercial, free speech programming.
[56:44.910 --> 56:51.930]  Join the WBAI family as a BAI buddy in the name of your favorite show today and support radio you can trust.
[56:52.150 --> 56:52.910]  It's easy.
[56:53.110 --> 56:58.910]  Just go to WBAI.org or call 516-620-3602.
[56:59.890 --> 57:02.910]  That's 516-620-3602.
[57:02.910 --> 57:03.230]  For more than 32-3602.
[57:03.230 --> 57:03.870]  For more than 416-621-3602...
[00:00.000 --> 00:01.500]  All right, we're live.
[00:02.480 --> 00:05.480]  And I believe that means we're on YouTube right now.
[00:05.600 --> 00:10.340]  Hello, YouTube people who are just the same as regular people on the radio.
[00:11.360 --> 00:14.800]  We are talking with Alex and Kyle.
[00:15.980 --> 00:22.740]  And we have Dr. Welton Chang with us from Human Rights First.
[00:23.080 --> 00:27.200]  And we are going to continue the conversation for a few minutes anyway.
[00:27.340 --> 00:28.040]  We're going to test this out.
[00:28.040 --> 00:37.320]  The reason we're doing it this way is because we can't take phone calls on the air because we don't have access to the dump button in case somebody says something inappropriate.
[00:37.420 --> 00:38.540]  There's nothing we can do.
[00:39.040 --> 00:41.240]  And that could be unfortunate.
[00:41.460 --> 00:45.080]  So the phone number is 802-321-4225.
[00:45.260 --> 00:46.900]  802-321-HACK.
[00:47.820 --> 00:51.260]  And I know it's always hard to get the first person to call.
[00:51.420 --> 00:52.240]  Everyone's always shy.
[00:52.240 --> 00:55.920]  So if we can just get that out of the way as quickly as possible, that'd be so good.
[00:56.040 --> 00:57.680]  Everything is working at least.
[00:58.580 --> 01:00.040]  Let's just do a quick mic check.
[01:00.320 --> 01:01.700]  Kyle, your mic is working there?
[01:02.720 --> 01:03.160]  Yes.
[01:03.400 --> 01:03.680]  All right.
[01:04.580 --> 01:05.720]  Welton, your mic is working?
[01:06.420 --> 01:07.300]  I think so.
[01:07.540 --> 01:08.040]  And Alex?
[01:09.100 --> 01:09.780]  Copy that.
[01:10.020 --> 01:10.420]  All right.
[01:11.420 --> 01:15.180]  So, now, Alex, you're listening on YouTube, right?
[01:16.580 --> 01:19.200]  Well, I turned off the stream because it was...
[01:19.200 --> 01:21.220]  Can you just turn it on to make sure we're on?
[01:21.520 --> 01:22.400]  It'll be delayed.
[01:22.580 --> 01:24.920]  We'll hear us in many seconds past.
[01:25.900 --> 01:27.040]  Regular people on the radio.
[01:27.040 --> 01:27.700]  Hey, that's me.
[01:27.820 --> 01:27.980]  Okay.
[01:28.340 --> 01:29.160]  So it works.
[01:29.320 --> 01:29.720]  It works.
[01:30.600 --> 01:31.340]  All right, folks.
[01:31.500 --> 01:35.760]  So this is your chance to give us a call and talk to us because we haven't been able to talk to you.
[01:36.100 --> 01:37.220]  Oh, the phone is ringing.
[01:37.440 --> 01:38.200]  The phone is ringing.
[01:38.380 --> 01:38.980]  It picked up.
[01:39.480 --> 01:40.420]  What do you mean it picked up?
[01:40.560 --> 01:41.800]  Well, I have auto-answer.
[01:41.800 --> 01:42.400]  Oh, auto-answer.
[01:42.500 --> 01:43.640]  So we have a caller.
[01:43.900 --> 01:44.120]  Yeah.
[01:44.260 --> 01:47.440]  And I can drop if you get feedback because it doesn't mute the...
[01:47.440 --> 01:49.220]  Well, the caller's time is important.
[01:49.400 --> 01:54.000]  And I can see from what's displayed on the screen that it's from the 443 area code.
[01:54.000 --> 01:55.140]  I have no idea where that's from.
[01:55.220 --> 01:56.120]  Caller, where are you from?
[01:59.450 --> 02:00.210]  Caller, are you there?
[02:04.950 --> 02:05.310]  Hmm.
[02:06.050 --> 02:09.670]  I hear my voice in the distance, but I don't hear a caller.
[02:09.870 --> 02:10.690]  I think they forgot about us.
[02:10.830 --> 02:11.650]  No, I don't think they forgot.
[02:11.930 --> 02:13.170]  Are they still connected?
[02:14.070 --> 02:15.090]  I believe so, yeah.
[02:15.090 --> 02:16.650]  These are the hiccups that we have to go through.
[02:16.850 --> 02:17.310]  Oh, boy.
[02:17.730 --> 02:19.770]  I'm actually calling from Staten Island, New York.
[02:19.870 --> 02:20.430]  There you go.
[02:20.430 --> 02:20.950]  Okay.
[02:21.770 --> 02:22.210]  All right.
[02:22.290 --> 02:22.730]  Yeah, I'm here.
[02:23.070 --> 02:23.650]  Can you hear me?
[02:23.730 --> 02:24.430]  Yeah, you know what?
[02:25.510 --> 02:26.690]  Can you hear me as I'm...
[02:26.690 --> 02:26.830]  Can you hear me?
[02:26.930 --> 02:28.610]  Yeah, I think he's hearing me later.
[02:28.730 --> 02:28.910]  Hello?
[02:29.090 --> 02:29.730]  Yeah, that's a little delay.
[02:29.730 --> 02:30.170]  That's what it sounds like.
[02:30.330 --> 02:30.530]  Yeah, we can hear you.
[02:30.530 --> 02:31.310]  No, it's a big delay.
[02:31.430 --> 02:32.770]  Look how long it's taking if they'll answer me.
[02:33.370 --> 02:35.550]  Are you sure he's not...
[02:35.550 --> 02:37.970]  There's not a button here that he's not...
[02:37.970 --> 02:39.930]  I'm not calling from Staten Island, New York.
[02:40.170 --> 02:40.390]  Okay.
[02:40.750 --> 02:42.030]  I think he's listening through YouTube.
[02:42.270 --> 02:43.370]  Yeah, don't listen through YouTube.
[02:43.510 --> 02:44.330]  Listen through your phone.
[02:50.490 --> 02:54.110]  There's like a 40-second delay otherwise, and it'll take a very long time.
[02:54.630 --> 02:58.210]  Yeah, so there is a delay, and I'll work with the delay.
[02:58.710 --> 02:59.650]  Okay, well...
[02:59.650 --> 03:02.430]  So you just let me know what's your question.
[03:03.710 --> 03:05.770]  Wait, you're asking us a question, I think.
[03:05.930 --> 03:06.230]  Well, I...
[03:06.230 --> 03:07.710]  I can't hear you through the phone at all.
[03:07.710 --> 03:09.230]  You can't hear us through the phone, Kyle.
[03:09.450 --> 03:09.650]  Okay.
[03:10.130 --> 03:11.050]  How about now?
[03:11.550 --> 03:11.950]  Hello?
[03:12.470 --> 03:13.010]  All right.
[03:13.130 --> 03:14.910]  These are the things we have to iron out.
[03:16.010 --> 03:16.730]  I'm sorry.
[03:16.950 --> 03:17.270]  I'm sorry.
[03:17.410 --> 03:19.310]  For some reason, they can't...
[03:19.310 --> 03:22.470]  We tested this, and it worked, of course.
[03:23.390 --> 03:24.590]  Now we're creating static.
[03:24.750 --> 03:25.130]  That's great.
[03:25.310 --> 03:25.810]  That's wonderful.
[03:28.490 --> 03:29.370]  A caller...
[03:29.370 --> 03:33.810]  Okay, in 40 seconds, could you just ask us a question, and we'll answer it on the YouTube channel.
[03:33.810 --> 03:37.810]  There's still a delay, but I can use the IRC chat if you guys are still on it.
[03:38.410 --> 03:40.030]  I'm not on IRC right now.
[03:40.150 --> 03:41.930]  You know, I haven't been on IRC in years, but...
[03:41.930 --> 03:46.670]  How about you just ask us a question, and we'll answer it, and you can hear it over YouTube.
[03:46.950 --> 03:49.790]  And hopefully we can fix these horrible connections that we have.
[03:53.490 --> 03:55.550]  And now we wait 40 seconds for him to hear that.
[03:56.130 --> 03:58.710]  Wow, technology, really, it's marching forward, isn't it?
[04:01.550 --> 04:02.090]  All right.
[04:02.290 --> 04:03.010]  This is what I'll do.
[04:03.050 --> 04:04.310]  I'll just jump right into it.
[04:04.610 --> 04:11.070]  So, I heard you got your plea that you wanted someone to have the first call, and I'll be that sacrificial lamb.
[04:11.690 --> 04:14.010]  I'm Han Cannon from Staten Island.
[04:14.910 --> 04:20.970]  So, I had it, I was just working from home, teleworking, and I had an old boombox sitting there.
[04:21.090 --> 04:24.110]  I know it works, but I haven't powered it up in a long time.
[04:24.110 --> 04:24.870]  So, I plugged it in.
[04:25.390 --> 04:29.510]  I tuned to a station that was clear, and I heard New York City talk radio.
[04:29.510 --> 04:39.510]  And then, over a certain amount of time, then I hear the words, off the hook, and it brought back fond memories.
[04:41.270 --> 04:53.330]  Immediately, it brought me back to City Corp Center, Barnes & Noble, black t-shirt with the red box diagram, and exciting times where I just wanted to know how anything worked in the world.
[04:54.170 --> 05:02.010]  This is a time where I lived in New Jersey for a bit, had net zero, you know, had my own dial-up line, and that's how I got onto the internet.
[05:03.330 --> 05:06.110]  Getting MP3s that way, I mean...
[05:06.110 --> 05:13.410]  So, the nostalgia got me very excited, and I'm super happy just to hear you guys on the radio.
[05:13.410 --> 05:18.750]  And it's the first time in, like, over 20 years, I actually was able to communicate with someone.
[05:18.930 --> 05:21.150]  So, I'm happy to hear you guys on the radio.
[05:21.390 --> 05:21.930]  That's it.
[05:22.130 --> 05:22.910]  That is amazing.
[05:24.230 --> 05:26.130]  That was just helping you guys test your audio.
[05:26.350 --> 05:28.190]  I didn't have any questions in particular.
[05:28.550 --> 05:29.790]  I'm just...
[05:30.650 --> 05:31.050]  Okay.
[05:31.210 --> 05:31.810]  Just excited.
[05:31.970 --> 05:32.670]  That's really it.
[05:33.290 --> 05:35.070]  Well, I know you can't hear me now.
[05:35.130 --> 05:38.630]  You'll hear me in 40 seconds, but I want to thank you for calling in.
[05:38.630 --> 05:44.110]  I want to thank you for those kind words, and I think that epitomizes what it is we're all about.
[05:44.210 --> 05:50.230]  People just randomly hearing us and thinking about hacking and the history of Off the Hook and all that.
[05:50.350 --> 05:52.030]  And great to hear from Staten Island.
[05:52.410 --> 05:59.210]  And hopefully our audio gets fixed, and we can work that out a little bit better.
[05:59.950 --> 06:01.270]  Is that called Disconnected now?
[06:02.830 --> 06:03.270]  Yes.
[06:03.470 --> 06:03.650]  Okay.
[06:03.830 --> 06:05.190]  So, we're going to try again.
[06:05.330 --> 06:06.910]  Maybe it was that caller.
[06:07.170 --> 06:08.090]  I doubt it, though.
[06:08.090 --> 06:09.410]  I think it's probably something on our end.
[06:09.550 --> 06:14.870]  We did test this for over an hour last night, and we got it to work, but it took a little bit of doing.
[06:16.670 --> 06:19.750]  If another call comes in, we'll be able to test that as well.
[06:19.990 --> 06:21.530]  I'll also try turning them down.
[06:21.730 --> 06:22.390]  Turning who down?
[06:23.630 --> 06:24.610]  Alex, briefly.
[06:24.930 --> 06:25.970]  I can turn them down.
[06:25.970 --> 06:27.170]  If I have to mess with this.
[06:27.210 --> 06:27.470]  Okay.
[06:27.630 --> 06:28.670]  We can do all kinds of...
[06:28.670 --> 06:28.970]  Whoa.
[06:29.250 --> 06:29.490]  Okay.
[06:29.650 --> 06:30.430]  And don't do that.
[06:30.510 --> 06:31.230]  You told me that already.
[06:31.410 --> 06:32.130]  Don't hit that button.
[06:32.610 --> 06:33.330]  I'm sorry.
[06:33.730 --> 06:34.690]  Didn't mean to do that.
[06:35.430 --> 06:35.830]  Okay.
[06:35.830 --> 06:41.410]  So, yes, we, again, can take phone calls, 802-321-4225.
[06:42.450 --> 06:46.550]  Hopefully, another phone call will come in, and we can actually hear them, or they can hear us.
[06:46.650 --> 06:48.070]  We can sort of take phone calls.
[06:48.170 --> 06:48.910]  This is an experiment.
[06:49.750 --> 06:50.110]  Yeah.
[06:50.270 --> 06:51.570]  This is what it's about, folks.
[06:51.590 --> 06:52.150]  This is hacking.
[06:52.330 --> 06:56.510]  This is trying to make something work that should never work in the first place.
[06:57.930 --> 06:59.870]  I'm ignoring our guests here.
[07:01.670 --> 07:05.270]  Guys, anything else that you want to add to the conversation?
[07:07.150 --> 07:07.790]  Either of you.
[07:09.150 --> 07:09.930]  Yeah, sure.
[07:10.150 --> 07:22.890]  I mean, it's interesting that we didn't have this problem last night, and we spent a lot of time testing and running through all the different permutations of what could go wrong, and not being able to hear somebody on the phone was not one of those problems.
[07:23.330 --> 07:28.370]  So, you know, it's, yeah, anything goes, Murphy's Law type of thing.
[07:28.530 --> 07:31.390]  But look, I think, you know, it is streaming on YouTube.
[07:31.550 --> 07:32.390]  There are people listening.
[07:32.390 --> 07:34.570]  We do have an overtime thing going.
[07:34.830 --> 07:36.630]  So, definitely call in.
[07:36.630 --> 07:40.470]  Don't be shy, 802-321-HACK.
[07:40.690 --> 07:43.510]  It was at 4225, if I recall correctly.
[07:44.130 --> 07:44.930]  Give us a ring.
[07:45.090 --> 07:47.530]  Okay, we're going to try and hear this person.
[07:47.930 --> 07:48.390]  What do I do?
[07:48.530 --> 07:52.750]  I'm going to turn them down, turn this person up, and can they hear us?
[07:53.550 --> 07:54.450]  Is anyone there?
[07:55.010 --> 07:56.070]  No, they can't hear us.
[07:56.230 --> 07:57.470]  Are they going to answer in 40 seconds?
[07:57.930 --> 07:58.850]  This is ridiculous.
[08:00.370 --> 08:01.730]  We deserve better than this.
[08:02.190 --> 08:04.290]  What did you do last night to make it work, Kyle?
[08:04.290 --> 08:07.810]  Because at first it didn't work, and now it's not working again.
[08:09.070 --> 08:11.290]  Oh, and we didn't have a call in the first place.
[08:11.510 --> 08:12.210]  Is anyone there?
[08:13.250 --> 08:14.590]  Yes, someone is here.
[08:14.770 --> 08:15.170]  Oh, my God.
[08:15.310 --> 08:16.370]  Is that Bobson from Bulgaria?
[08:16.650 --> 08:17.130]  That's Bobson.
[08:17.490 --> 08:18.150]  Yes, sir.
[08:18.330 --> 08:19.610]  And wait, and he can hear us.
[08:19.750 --> 08:20.150]  Don't touch that connector.
[08:20.150 --> 08:20.970]  Don't touch anything.
[08:21.370 --> 08:21.910]  Nobody move.
[08:21.910 --> 08:23.110]  I'm going to drop the YouTube.
[08:23.450 --> 08:24.250]  Nobody move.
[08:26.610 --> 08:26.990]  Why?
[08:27.290 --> 08:27.750]  What happened?
[08:27.830 --> 08:28.550]  Because if we...
[08:28.550 --> 08:32.030]  Oh, no, it's my connection on the board we're using.
[08:32.170 --> 08:32.830]  Go ahead, Bobson.
[08:32.870 --> 08:33.930]  Tell the dog to sit down.
[08:33.930 --> 08:37.330]  If he moves even a little bit, this connection is going to go haywire.
[08:37.850 --> 08:38.990]  Bobson, how are you?
[08:39.150 --> 08:40.190]  You're in Bulgaria?
[08:41.330 --> 08:42.150]  Yes, sir.
[08:43.130 --> 08:50.950]  Well, I think it's not been a good year, shall we say.
[08:51.550 --> 08:51.770]  Really?
[08:51.850 --> 08:52.550]  What happened?
[08:54.590 --> 08:55.470]  Oh, well.
[08:55.810 --> 08:58.530]  Very recently, there was a loss in my family.
[08:58.810 --> 08:59.670]  Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
[09:01.270 --> 09:01.990]  Oh, well.
[09:01.990 --> 09:06.410]  I thought you were referring to the, just the overall gloom that was...
[09:06.410 --> 09:14.310]  Oh, no, I was being, what's the word, not greedy.
[09:14.610 --> 09:17.470]  I was being selfish for a brief moment.
[09:17.710 --> 09:18.390]  Sorry about that.
[09:18.410 --> 09:19.650]  I don't, I don't think that's true.
[09:19.650 --> 09:20.410]  I doubt that.
[09:20.410 --> 09:21.410]  You're welcome to that.
[09:21.610 --> 09:27.530]  Do you have, do you have, do you have perhaps a question for our guest from, from Human Rights First?
[09:29.290 --> 09:31.090]  Well, not as such.
[09:31.150 --> 09:39.370]  I've been trying to figure out the YouTubes and whatnot, and it's been a bit of a, a bit confusing, so...
[09:39.370 --> 09:39.970]  But you got through.
[09:40.090 --> 09:41.570]  It was fun listening to you.
[09:41.710 --> 09:42.270]  You got through.
[09:42.430 --> 09:44.070]  That's, that, that to me is a success.
[09:44.070 --> 09:46.190]  The fact that, that you were able to make it...
[09:46.190 --> 09:47.950]  Yeah, that's, it's incredible.
[09:48.170 --> 09:54.710]  Yeah, I'm not listening to the YouTubes right now because the phone is, seems to be the better way to go about it.
[09:54.930 --> 09:56.570]  And it's good to know you can hear us over the phone.
[09:57.810 --> 09:58.630]  Oh, yes, sir.
[09:58.630 --> 10:03.790]  Uh, can we just do a quick test because, uh, you guys, uh, um, can, can hear him?
[10:03.970 --> 10:04.490]  No problem?
[10:04.590 --> 10:04.770]  Okay.
[10:05.170 --> 10:06.350]  Can you say something now?
[10:06.450 --> 10:07.710]  Let's see if he can hear you.
[10:08.010 --> 10:09.850]  What's, what, wait, Kyle, you, you give me a warning look.
[10:10.050 --> 10:10.790]  Just be careful when you bring this.
[10:10.790 --> 10:11.430]  Be careful of what?
[10:11.510 --> 10:12.550]  What else to be careful of?
[10:12.710 --> 10:13.110]  Go ahead.
[10:13.210 --> 10:14.850]  It's a, it's a, it's a knob on a board.
[10:15.090 --> 10:15.230]  Okay.
[10:15.390 --> 10:19.150]  It might make a horrible sound, uh, in which case I'll be the one that gets deafened.
[10:19.510 --> 10:19.670]  Okay.
[10:19.730 --> 10:20.150]  Here we go.
[10:20.510 --> 10:23.450]  Uh, guys, uh, say something to Bobson.
[10:26.250 --> 10:26.970]  Hello, Bobson.
[10:27.350 --> 10:27.710]  Echo.
[10:27.710 --> 10:30.990]  I hear a faint voice saying hello.
[10:31.350 --> 10:32.570]  Okay, that's good enough.
[10:33.370 --> 10:34.210]  Hey, Bobson.
[10:34.310 --> 10:34.410]  How are you?
[10:34.410 --> 10:37.790]  And I hear myself in an echo over the phone.
[10:37.890 --> 10:38.690]  Did you hear Weldon?
[10:39.310 --> 10:40.550]  I sound terrible now.
[10:40.590 --> 10:42.010]  Yes, it was a bit faint.
[10:42.370 --> 10:43.210]  Okay, all right.
[10:43.310 --> 10:45.710]  Well, maybe if I turn myself off while they talk.
[10:46.630 --> 10:51.570]  And my voice is coming back over the phone in an echo.
[10:56.430 --> 10:57.130]  That's odd.
[10:57.130 --> 11:01.990]  So you're, you're, you're, you're hearing an echo of your own voice coming back at you on the phone.
[11:03.030 --> 11:03.750]  Yes, sir.
[11:05.430 --> 11:07.230]  I heard you faintly.
[11:07.270 --> 11:11.190]  But you were able to say that and he was able to understand you and that to me is success.
[11:11.190 --> 11:12.210]  So we're getting there.
[11:12.390 --> 11:14.610]  Uh, we did have the echo problem yesterday.
[11:14.610 --> 11:18.910]  Um, uh, Bobson, now when you talk to me directly, do you hear the echo?
[11:20.650 --> 11:23.370]  I, I don't hear it right now, no.
[11:23.470 --> 11:24.930]  So he doesn't hear it when he talks to me.
[11:25.230 --> 11:26.190]  I just turned something down.
[11:26.290 --> 11:27.590]  He hears it when he talks to Alex.
[11:27.770 --> 11:33.590]  So it's Alex's fault, which I suspected from the beginning, that when people talk to him, they hear their own voice echoed back.
[11:33.870 --> 11:34.610]  Try it again.
[11:34.610 --> 11:44.710]  I, it feels to me as if the telephony we're playing with now sounds somehow 18, 20s or so.
[11:44.890 --> 11:45.090]  Okay.
[11:47.050 --> 11:47.910]  Anybody there?
[11:48.290 --> 11:49.130]  Bobson, are you there?
[11:49.250 --> 11:49.850]  I'm here.
[11:50.090 --> 11:56.550]  I hear you, but you're not, uh, I hear you low, shall I say.
[11:57.030 --> 12:00.210]  But, but Bobson, did you hear an echo when you talked to him just now?
[12:01.130 --> 12:01.650]  No.
[12:01.870 --> 12:02.070]  Okay.
[12:02.090 --> 12:03.270]  So we fixed that problem.
[12:03.270 --> 12:04.830]  We, we just fixed the problem.
[12:05.070 --> 12:05.850]  So that's awesome.
[12:06.010 --> 12:06.090]  Wow.
[12:06.350 --> 12:12.010]  The thing is we have like two audio interfaces, each on a channel and they're both monitoring certain channels.
[12:12.110 --> 12:16.310]  And so invariably in various configurations, we're going to collide.
[12:16.470 --> 12:16.650]  Yeah.
[12:17.030 --> 12:28.250]  So, and my audio engineering skills are, I mean, minimal compared to what we've built, but it's so great to, to hear you and, uh, be able to share with everyone, share the conversation.
[12:28.390 --> 12:29.370]  Alex wants to say something.
[12:29.490 --> 12:34.030]  I'm going to, I'm going to take a chance now and turn him up at the same time that Kyle and I are up and hopefully we don't deafen ourselves.
[12:34.870 --> 12:34.950]  Okay.
[12:35.110 --> 12:35.290]  Go ahead.
[12:35.530 --> 12:39.910]  Kyle, your, your audio engineer, audio engineering skills notwithstanding.
[12:40.650 --> 12:44.550]  Unfortunately, Welton and I could not hear Bobson when he was pre-con.
[12:45.510 --> 12:46.650]  You couldn't hear him when?
[12:46.910 --> 12:50.570]  I hear you, Alex, but your voice is a bit low.
[12:51.030 --> 12:52.730]  Yeah, he hears you, but your voice is a bit.
[12:52.790 --> 12:54.050]  You said you couldn't hear him.
[12:54.210 --> 12:55.110]  You hear him now.
[12:55.270 --> 12:56.090]  You hear him now.
[12:56.490 --> 12:58.130]  So Kyle, whatever you did, don't do that again.
[12:59.050 --> 13:01.790]  Yeah, that's, that's what I had turned, turned down.
[13:01.830 --> 13:03.810]  There are so many knobs and buttons on this board.
[13:03.930 --> 13:04.750]  It's, it's unbelievable.
[13:04.970 --> 13:08.750]  But, uh, just getting this to work, it might seem easy in concept.
[13:08.830 --> 13:11.290]  It's not as easy as, as you might think.
[13:11.530 --> 13:19.210]  It would take me an hour to describe what is, why it's doing that or like what, what I did to make it, uh, fail in the way it did.
[13:19.410 --> 13:20.990]  And we don't really want to spend time on that.
[13:21.130 --> 13:22.590]  Three different technologies of audio.
[13:22.890 --> 13:27.270]  Well, maybe, maybe if you write it down, it might be useful in the future.
[13:27.450 --> 13:30.010]  Oh yeah, we're, we're taking, uh, a lot of notes on this.
[13:30.110 --> 13:34.150]  And we're, we're definitely improving as we build upon, uh, what we've done.
[13:34.370 --> 13:37.790]  Bobson, um, if I can ask an actual, uh, question here.
[13:37.970 --> 13:40.970]  Uh, how has Bulgaria been dealing with the pandemic?
[13:43.590 --> 13:46.650]  Well, uh, it's been.
[13:47.050 --> 14:16.810]  It's been weird, uh, there were attempts to make face masks mandatory and such, which have not met with the, uh, uh, the public has not taken, does not seem to be taking them too seriously, unfortunately, because, uh, I don't know what reasons, but I don't.
[14:17.050 --> 14:20.490]  Go out without a face mask on my nose and mouth.
[14:20.750 --> 14:20.850]  Good.
[14:21.050 --> 14:22.550]  Because that's who I am.
[14:22.690 --> 14:33.010]  And it seems that far too many people I run into are not wearing masks when I do that during daytimes.
[14:33.450 --> 14:40.050]  I, you know, I would cross the street when those people start coming your way, just go the other side of the street and maybe wave.
[14:40.370 --> 14:51.930]  Well, I usually, I, when I wave my walking stick in their vicinity, they seem to get the idea to not spend too much time here.
[14:52.390 --> 14:54.090]  It's a bit of a...
[14:55.090 --> 14:55.710]  Oh, well.
[14:55.950 --> 14:58.870]  Yeah, no, that's, that's done with style, Bobson.
[14:58.930 --> 14:59.570]  Good, good to hear.
[15:00.030 --> 15:07.390]  And we really look forward to seeing you again, hopefully this summer, you know, I think things might start getting back to normal by then and, and certainly after then.
[15:07.510 --> 15:10.710]  Are we talking, hope, 2021-ish or...
[15:10.710 --> 15:13.230]  We're talking about whatever it is we can manage to do.
[15:13.350 --> 15:14.590]  And we're going to do it safely.
[15:14.590 --> 15:26.890]  And we're going to, um, to, to make sure that we all get through this as, as sanely as possible, but it's just, it's so cool to be able to talk to people again and to be able to use technology in, in the way that, that benefits us.
[15:26.970 --> 15:28.050]  And I think we're all trying to do that.
[15:30.150 --> 15:33.110]  Hey, we figured out how to use telephones.
[15:33.810 --> 15:34.210]  Okay.
[15:34.230 --> 15:35.010]  It's more than that.
[15:35.010 --> 15:36.430]  It's more than just telephones.
[15:36.530 --> 15:37.850]  If it was just telephones, it would be easy.
[15:37.950 --> 15:43.010]  We're doing, um, YouTube, we're doing Skype and we're doing, uh, uh, copper line.
[15:43.170 --> 15:55.210]  And YouTube's are in a background somewhere on a screen where I see a, old post box, but I'm not listening to them because it would be confusing.
[15:56.650 --> 15:58.310]  Well, Bobson, good hearing from you.
[15:58.550 --> 16:04.950]  We're going to, uh, try and get one more phone call before we, we sign off for the night, but, uh, please stay in touch for the show tonight.
[16:05.330 --> 16:08.030]  Thank you for listening and being there and, and, and hang in there.
[16:09.370 --> 16:10.370]  You too, folks.
[16:10.870 --> 16:11.830]  See you soon.
[16:11.830 --> 16:15.110]  I hope you can say good night to you guys.
[16:16.630 --> 16:17.810]  Good night, Bobson.
[16:18.290 --> 16:19.150]  Good night, Bobson.
[16:20.330 --> 16:23.110]  I'm not going to touch anything on the board at all.
[16:23.310 --> 16:25.210]  So hopefully the settings stay.
[16:25.450 --> 16:26.710]  Yeah, that's a good equilibrium.
[16:26.710 --> 16:28.470]  And the next caller can hear us.
[16:28.590 --> 16:29.590]  So that, this is the test.
[16:29.790 --> 16:32.890]  I'll be ready to mute the telephone because it might make a horrible sound.
[16:33.090 --> 16:34.190]  If it makes a horrible sound, I will mute.
[16:34.270 --> 16:35.570]  All right, we're hanging out, Bobson.
[16:35.650 --> 16:35.830]  Bye.
[16:35.930 --> 16:37.770]  I cannot mute the phone on my end.
[16:38.550 --> 16:40.090]  We, we would never ask you to do that.
[16:40.150 --> 16:40.530]  You know what?
[16:40.610 --> 16:43.210]  It would, it would be too much, too much to ask you, but thanks for calling.
[16:43.630 --> 16:45.530]  So let's try and get one more phone call in.
[16:45.650 --> 16:46.530]  Oh, you're right about the noise.
[16:47.170 --> 16:48.430]  You were right about that noise.
[16:48.530 --> 16:49.490]  Okay, so I pressed the button.
[16:49.750 --> 16:51.890]  I'll just un-press that button when the next call comes to it.
[16:51.910 --> 16:54.410]  Yeah, when we drop a call, we should definitely mute the channel.
[16:54.410 --> 16:56.510]  If I release the button now, would it make that noise again?
[16:56.510 --> 16:57.090]  Yes.
[16:57.830 --> 16:58.430]  You're right.
[16:58.650 --> 16:59.010]  Okay.
[16:59.750 --> 17:06.170]  So I'll wait for a call to come in, then press that button, and hopefully they can hear us because I haven't touched any knobs and made any adjustments.
[17:06.430 --> 17:06.810]  Yeah, yeah.
[17:06.830 --> 17:08.910]  There's a gain setting I think I didn't do.
[17:09.070 --> 17:10.110]  I didn't go through the procedure.
[17:10.110 --> 17:11.630]  So folks, one more call.
[17:11.870 --> 17:12.530]  That's all it takes.
[17:12.870 --> 17:14.030]  And we're learning.
[17:14.190 --> 17:14.830]  We're getting better at this.
[17:15.370 --> 17:16.850]  802-321-4225.
[17:17.010 --> 17:18.230]  802-321-HACK.
[17:18.990 --> 17:20.430]  And we'll take that call.
[17:20.710 --> 17:23.310]  You can say whatever you want to say, and then we will move on.
[17:23.570 --> 17:25.450]  And Kyle, you're touching wires on there.
[17:25.450 --> 17:27.750]  You shouldn't touch wires because that might affect the board.
[17:27.950 --> 17:28.330]  You're right, you're right.
[17:28.730 --> 17:33.710]  So guys, anything you want to add to the conversation while we wait for this phone to ring?
[17:35.070 --> 17:39.270]  No, this has been, you know, quite a glorious experiment, I think.
[17:39.310 --> 17:40.690]  You know, it's working.
[17:40.910 --> 17:43.150]  We troubleshot some issues.
[17:43.250 --> 17:48.850]  We have an amazing guest on the line, a call from Bulgaria, a call from Staten Island.
[17:49.690 --> 17:51.670]  I'm wondering where the next one is going to come from.
[17:52.090 --> 17:52.950]  Yeah, you know...
[17:52.950 --> 17:57.670]  I'm just honored to have been a part of this inaugural session.
[17:58.490 --> 18:04.690]  And probably will live on on the internet until, you know, the sun dies a heat death, I guess.
[18:05.070 --> 18:05.590]  One would hope.
[18:05.730 --> 18:06.570]  One would definitely hope.
[18:06.790 --> 18:10.130]  Off the hook, over time, we have a call coming from...
[18:10.130 --> 18:11.110]  Looks like...
[18:11.110 --> 18:11.910]  Is that Philadelphia?
[18:13.130 --> 18:13.610]  267?
[18:14.370 --> 18:14.930]  I don't know.
[18:15.210 --> 18:16.150]  Do I hit the button now?
[18:16.510 --> 18:16.970]  Yeah.
[18:16.970 --> 18:18.090]  Is anybody there?
[18:19.090 --> 18:26.750]  Yeah, I'm using a NoBeHi, NowPolyCon, VoIP analog telephone adapter.
[18:27.010 --> 18:27.210]  Oh.
[18:27.450 --> 18:32.130]  And I'm calling out on a one suite number where I pay a penny a minute.
[18:32.970 --> 18:45.850]  And the number that you see in the caller ID, it's impossible for you to call me back on it, which is a number I use when I call back suspicious caller IDs that called me, in case we're spammers.
[18:46.330 --> 18:46.550]  Wow.
[18:46.550 --> 18:51.950]  I remember what they said, press 2 to continue receiving information from us.
[18:52.070 --> 18:55.550]  This is when they had already spammed me about auto warranties.
[18:55.550 --> 19:00.270]  Of course, I press 2 to continue calling me, because they'd never get through to me.
[19:00.750 --> 19:04.470]  You could call them with their own phone number, too, and have them call themselves forever.
[19:05.210 --> 19:05.750]  Yeah, yeah.
[19:05.890 --> 19:08.150]  Well, they just might recognize it, but then maybe not.
[19:08.150 --> 19:13.270]  If they have a whole boiler room of people, they may not even know what the outgoing number is.
[19:13.370 --> 19:17.410]  Anyhow, I'm listening on YouTube, and I think this is good this way.
[19:18.410 --> 19:20.990]  Maybe you could have all your shows like this.
[19:21.650 --> 19:27.410]  Well, you know, we learn from trying new things, and this is the first time we're trying this, so by all means, give us your feedback.
[19:27.710 --> 19:28.870]  Yeah, there may be a way.
[19:30.050 --> 19:32.450]  The tricky part about that is the cutover.
[19:32.610 --> 19:42.350]  We are connected both to a terrestrial radio station in the city, of course, and cutting over from one to the other is a little bit of a process, but we'll work on that.
[19:42.510 --> 19:51.650]  We're going to keep working on the kinks and learning about, well, learning about taming everything that we have connected without blue smoke.
[19:51.850 --> 19:53.450]  Yeah, the important thing is to be able to talk to our listeners.
[19:53.450 --> 19:56.790]  We haven't been able to do that for months, and it's just great to be able to hear voices again.
[19:57.490 --> 19:59.510]  Have you gotten rid of the delay?
[20:01.550 --> 20:02.770]  We have a delay.
[20:03.090 --> 20:04.590]  You mean for the radio station?
[20:05.330 --> 20:09.430]  No, no, I mean, I'm talking to you now, and there seems to be no delay between your voice and mine.
[20:09.530 --> 20:10.930]  Because you're talking on the phone.
[20:11.790 --> 20:13.090]  YouTube, there's a delay.
[20:13.310 --> 20:23.970]  Well, also, we had a tricky thing where you weren't able to get that signal back, but I have a precariously placed quarter-inch jack.
[20:24.150 --> 20:24.570]  Why?
[20:24.970 --> 20:27.410]  It just barely touches in the right way.
[20:27.630 --> 20:29.310]  I don't really understand it.
[20:29.370 --> 20:31.430]  I tried a mono quarter-inch jack.
[20:31.650 --> 20:33.870]  And anyway, that's what happened.
[20:34.090 --> 20:34.670]  So it's...
[20:34.670 --> 20:36.770]  Maybe you should take a picture of the board and post it.
[20:36.810 --> 20:39.690]  Maybe somebody can tell us what the right settings are.
[20:39.870 --> 20:40.170]  Because...
[20:40.170 --> 20:41.510]  This is a stereo quarter-inch jack.
[20:41.590 --> 20:43.530]  But anyway, it's something we're working on.
[20:43.610 --> 20:46.650]  I wanted a better connection so that that was reliable.
[20:46.650 --> 20:48.430]  But thankfully, you sound great.
[20:48.630 --> 20:49.570]  We're hearing you very well.
[20:49.750 --> 20:52.150]  And it doesn't seem to be appreciable any kind of delay at all.
[20:52.570 --> 20:54.910]  Caller, are you comfortable telling us where you're calling from?
[20:54.930 --> 20:56.390]  And do you have a question for our guest?
[20:57.270 --> 20:58.670]  Long Island City, Queen.
[20:58.910 --> 20:59.350]  Oh, great.
[21:00.170 --> 21:01.270]  Yeah, I have no question.
[21:01.270 --> 21:03.290]  I'll get back to listening to you, too.
[21:03.730 --> 21:04.030]  Okay.
[21:04.390 --> 21:05.810]  Well, thank you for your call.
[21:06.650 --> 21:06.970]  All right.
[21:07.070 --> 21:07.250]  Bye.
[21:07.550 --> 21:10.110]  And I'm going to hit that button quickly before the horrible noise happens.
[21:10.830 --> 21:11.550]  See, I can learn.
[21:11.670 --> 21:12.030]  I can learn.
[21:12.190 --> 21:13.230]  And that's going to be it.
[21:13.290 --> 21:14.290]  That's going to be our last call.
[21:14.790 --> 21:16.230]  But I think it worked out.
[21:16.230 --> 21:17.170]  Well, it worked out all right.
[21:17.370 --> 21:19.310]  You know, a little kink every now and then.
[21:19.450 --> 21:20.910]  But we got through.
[21:22.310 --> 21:23.590]  Do you guys have any...
[21:23.590 --> 21:38.450]  You're going to have a recurring, like, what, 10-second delay or whatever the delay is between your caller closing up and whoever's monitoring on YouTube calling in, right?
[21:38.450 --> 21:43.270]  So if they're using YouTube to figure out the end of the call, then you're always going to have that delay there.
[21:43.490 --> 21:44.730]  But that's a small price.
[21:44.870 --> 21:46.270]  The other problem we ran into...
[21:46.270 --> 21:47.970]  We didn't get a chance to really focus on this.
[21:48.470 --> 21:55.810]  We have an analog, you know, copper line that is one phone line, does not have call waiting on it.
[21:55.890 --> 21:58.390]  So if somebody else calls it, you get a busy signal.
[21:58.630 --> 22:00.390]  You have no idea how rare that is.
[22:00.390 --> 22:06.150]  But we want to give out a special number, the one that ends in hack, that forwards to that number.
[22:06.450 --> 22:15.870]  And there is not a service we can find, Google Voice being the current one, that will allow you to get a busy signal for that second call, a second, third, fourth call.
[22:16.450 --> 22:21.550]  Everything forwards you to their own brand of voicemail, and they just give you all these gizmos that you don't want.
[22:22.170 --> 22:31.810]  And so people who are trying to reach us, who didn't get through because somebody else was already on the phone line, they got voicemail instead of the busy signal that we wanted them to get.
[22:31.890 --> 22:35.290]  Well, we didn't want them to get a busy signal, but that's what they should have gotten.
[22:35.450 --> 22:40.550]  But that's the kind of battle with technology that we find ourselves fighting more often than not.
[22:41.250 --> 22:42.870]  And we hope to fix that as well.
[22:43.310 --> 22:47.130]  Alex, I think you're looking into getting another analog phone line involved.
[22:47.310 --> 22:48.170]  Yeah, there's a lot of solutions.
[22:48.170 --> 23:09.870]  Alex, you were talking about services you already had, virtual or voicemail box systems that are service-based, or as I talked about on previous shows, and many people would be aware, PBX software or FreeSwitch, these things are stuff you could probably program fairly quickly.
[23:10.510 --> 23:12.070]  But we're working our way up.
[23:12.150 --> 23:15.490]  We just got our Windows 3.1 voice...
[23:15.490 --> 23:17.410]  Working our way up to a busy signal.
[23:17.410 --> 23:18.250]  That's what we're doing.
[23:18.730 --> 23:21.890]  It's a challenge just to get back to the technology of the 1980s.
[23:23.050 --> 23:28.290]  Yeah, and it's shaped by all these different numbers and services and their quirks.
[23:29.150 --> 23:34.610]  But that is the most we would want more than what we were able to set up.
[23:34.730 --> 23:36.010]  And the calls came in great.
[23:36.170 --> 23:37.610]  Yeah, I thought they worked out pretty well.
[23:38.070 --> 23:38.710]  Alex, go ahead.
[23:38.710 --> 23:54.030]  Yeah, you know, just sort of ending on a fun note about telephony and anachronisms, something we mentioned earlier was, you know, the busy signal with the Bell Atlantic notification earlier in the show we mentioned that, right?
[23:54.650 --> 23:59.070]  Emmanuel, do you remember the Manhattan Exchange 279?
[23:59.430 --> 24:01.450]  That used to be WBAI's old exchange.
[24:01.550 --> 24:01.910]  That's right.
[24:02.010 --> 24:03.670]  212-279-3400.
[24:03.850 --> 24:04.270]  That's right.
[24:04.270 --> 24:04.890]  Good memory.
[24:05.470 --> 24:06.670]  That's exactly it, yes.
[24:07.050 --> 24:07.610]  So check this out.
[24:07.710 --> 24:11.710]  I was playing with the phone, you know, while we were doing live off the hook.
[24:13.030 --> 24:15.550]  212-279-9901.
[24:15.710 --> 24:16.550]  Listen to this.
[24:16.770 --> 24:17.070]  Oh, boy.
[24:17.490 --> 24:18.070]  Comes in.
[24:30.340 --> 24:32.060]  Is it not going to pick up now?
[24:32.620 --> 24:34.160]  The switch picked up before.
[24:35.060 --> 24:35.340]  Oh, here we go.
[24:35.660 --> 24:37.120]  Yeah, we sell a live off of
[24:46.590 --> 24:47.890]  339.
[24:49.510 --> 24:51.350]  But it said Bell Atlantic again.
[24:51.570 --> 24:53.430]  Yeah, because that's an ancient recording.
[24:53.710 --> 24:54.550]  That has not been...
[24:54.550 --> 24:55.730]  They probably lost track of that.
[24:55.870 --> 24:58.490]  I'll bet there's nobody at Verizon knows how to access that to fix it.
[24:58.990 --> 25:00.070]  I bet you're right.
[25:00.210 --> 25:02.370]  I mean, they haven't changed it in decades, right?
[25:02.550 --> 25:04.070]  It still literally says Bell Atlantic.
[25:04.310 --> 25:07.570]  I mean, it hasn't been Bell Atlantic for a very, very long time.
[25:07.570 --> 25:09.090]  Okay, challenge to the listeners.
[25:09.350 --> 25:11.090]  Find us a recording that says 9X.
[25:11.090 --> 25:13.610]  And if you do that, New York Telephone after that.
[25:13.730 --> 25:15.250]  I'm sure they're out there somewhere.
[25:15.690 --> 25:18.810]  Write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[25:18.990 --> 25:25.710]  And if you really want to challenge, tell us where the picture is that is on our YouTube channel right now, if you're listening to this stream.
[25:27.310 --> 25:29.170]  Any last words, Weldon, from you?
[25:31.430 --> 25:43.250]  We are going to be honoring Albert Ho, a Hong Kong human rights activist and lawyer, tomorrow with our, every two years we give out the Baldwin Award.
[25:44.050 --> 25:50.250]  And I just wanted to, you know, let your audience know that it's going to happen at noon, Eastern, tomorrow.
[25:50.490 --> 25:56.170]  And if they, you know, are interested at all, humanrightsfirst.org, they can sign up.
[25:56.470 --> 25:58.970]  It's a free, you know, event.
[25:59.330 --> 26:07.730]  And pretty, actually, it'll be an exclusive interview that we had with him to honor his work and also bring attention to what's going on in Hong Kong.
[26:07.730 --> 26:09.170]  And that address, again, is what?
[26:11.450 --> 26:12.570]  Humanrightsfirst.org.
[26:12.930 --> 26:13.250]  Okay.
[26:13.370 --> 26:18.970]  And Alex, your award, a possible award, is that being broadcast on the internet somewhere?
[26:19.530 --> 26:20.190]  Yeah, it is.
[26:20.550 --> 26:24.170]  The Financial Times Innovation Awards for lawyers.
[26:24.910 --> 26:37.390]  I think if you just Google that or duck, duck, go that or whatever verb you want to do, use to perform a search on the internet, just look up FT Innovation Awards.
[26:37.530 --> 26:38.290]  And it's free.
[26:38.490 --> 26:39.210]  You can stream it in.
[26:39.270 --> 26:41.790]  It starts at 4.30 p.m.
[26:41.810 --> 26:43.010]  and ends at 6.30 p.m.
[26:43.430 --> 26:44.030]  Eastern time.
[26:44.930 --> 26:50.410]  And fingers crossed that, you know, that David versus Goliath pulls it off here.
[26:50.410 --> 27:03.730]  But, again, I'm incredibly honored to be part of that list and to have our work recognized by the Financial Times for cyber threat intelligence and DNS monitoring in the age of COVID-19 is pretty cool.
[27:04.110 --> 27:07.670]  So, you know, we appreciate the recognition.
[27:07.670 --> 27:14.450]  And we're going to continue doing what we do and being one of many fighting back against the coronavirus.
[27:14.770 --> 27:15.910]  I think we can all say that.
[27:15.910 --> 27:20.790]  Yeah, please keep us updated on both of you on your work.
[27:20.910 --> 27:27.810]  And we'll have another time in the future to have additional discussions and take more calls and questions.
[27:28.150 --> 27:30.970]  It's really, really been great having this time today.
[27:31.370 --> 27:35.570]  Thanks, everybody, for tuning in for this inaugural broadcast of Overtime, Off the Hook Overtime.
[27:35.850 --> 27:37.770]  We will hopefully see you next week.
[27:38.250 --> 27:38.550]  Good night.