[00:00.000 --> 00:10.640]  The previous program was Economic Update with Richard Wolff, heard right after the WBAI Evening News on Wednesdays at 6.30 p.m.
[00:10.760 --> 00:12.160]  Stay tuned for Off the Hook.
[00:12.480 --> 00:14.960]  Coming up, it is now 7 p.m.
[00:15.240 --> 00:15.980]  Stay tuned.
[00:24.520 --> 00:28.720]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:29.080 --> 00:30.400]  The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:30.540 --> 00:33.080]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[00:43.770 --> 00:45.830]  I cut myself all shaven.
[00:46.250 --> 00:48.310]  Now I gotta make a call.
[00:49.190 --> 00:51.090]  We couldn't get much worse.
[00:51.770 --> 00:53.630]  But if they could, they would.
[00:53.870 --> 00:56.510]  One day if I'm up with the best, it's better for works.
[00:57.190 --> 00:59.030]  I hope that's understood.
[00:59.370 --> 01:02.630]  One day if I'm up with
[02:23.060 --> 02:23.060]  the best.
[02:23.440 --> 02:25.300]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:25.400 --> 02:26.800]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:26.920 --> 02:30.020]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this delightful Wednesday evening.
[02:30.460 --> 02:32.140]  Joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:32.600 --> 02:33.580]  Yes, I read you.
[02:33.880 --> 02:34.320]  Rob T.
[02:34.520 --> 02:34.880]  Firefly.
[02:35.880 --> 02:36.600]  Good evening.
[02:36.920 --> 02:37.140]  Gila.
[02:38.200 --> 02:39.500]  Greetings and salutations.
[02:39.720 --> 02:40.260]  And Alex.
[02:41.220 --> 02:41.680]  Good evening.
[02:41.900 --> 02:43.280]  And we're all back in the studio.
[02:44.220 --> 02:45.780]  No, we're not back in the studio.
[02:45.840 --> 02:47.040]  But it sounded like we were, didn't it?
[02:47.220 --> 02:49.180]  It sounded like we almost were back in the studio.
[02:49.720 --> 02:50.960]  I'll tell you, that day's going to come.
[02:51.060 --> 02:51.700]  It's going to come.
[02:51.800 --> 02:52.280]  It's happening.
[02:52.660 --> 02:53.340]  One day, soon.
[02:53.640 --> 02:55.640]  Well, maybe not soon, but it's going to happen.
[02:56.320 --> 02:56.680]  Right?
[02:56.840 --> 02:57.600]  Tell me it's going to happen.
[02:57.720 --> 02:58.700]  Please, somebody tell me.
[03:00.660 --> 03:01.700]  It's going to happen.
[03:02.140 --> 03:05.020]  We don't know when, we don't know how, but it is going to happen.
[03:05.760 --> 03:07.660]  I don't know if I remember how to even get there.
[03:07.760 --> 03:08.660]  I really don't.
[03:08.760 --> 03:11.800]  And I certainly won't know how to work the board when I get there.
[03:11.860 --> 03:13.380]  It's going to be a comedy of errors.
[03:14.400 --> 03:16.080]  But, you know, we're all going through this.
[03:16.400 --> 03:17.740]  Alex, you're talking, but you're muted.
[03:18.980 --> 03:19.780]  You've got to press up.
[03:20.560 --> 03:22.540]  Well, your mouth was moving and nothing was coming out.
[03:22.700 --> 03:23.260]  Is that normal?
[03:23.500 --> 03:25.540]  I was cutting myself off because you were talking.
[03:25.660 --> 03:26.240]  Okay, go ahead.
[03:26.840 --> 03:31.720]  But I don't see why we can't go back to the station pretty damn soon.
[03:31.720 --> 03:33.060]  I mean, we're all vaccinated.
[03:33.260 --> 03:35.120]  Well, we're not all totally vaccinated yet.
[03:35.840 --> 03:37.020]  We're getting there, getting there.
[03:37.280 --> 03:40.980]  I'm past my point where I'm considered completely vaccinated.
[03:41.400 --> 03:44.780]  Maybe June we'll be able to talk about this in more serious...
[03:44.780 --> 03:48.760]  Maybe, but again, right now the station has armed guards preventing us from getting inside.
[03:49.100 --> 03:51.120]  So we can't even do that if we wanted to.
[03:51.280 --> 03:52.500]  I think that's separate, isn't it?
[03:52.800 --> 03:53.320]  That might be.
[03:53.460 --> 03:55.280]  Yeah, it's only on Wednesday nights.
[03:55.440 --> 03:56.340]  I've noticed that.
[03:56.520 --> 03:56.740]  It's weird.
[03:56.960 --> 03:57.120]  Yeah.
[03:58.060 --> 03:58.860]  But whatever.
[03:58.860 --> 04:03.000]  The point is, we're able to use technology to bring the show to you.
[04:03.340 --> 04:15.040]  Can you imagine, though, if this whole pandemic had happened, say, 20 years ago or maybe 30 or 40 years ago, you know, the 1960s, 1970s, how would we have survived as a society?
[04:15.040 --> 04:16.600]  We wouldn't have had remote learning.
[04:16.840 --> 04:18.800]  We wouldn't have had remote studios.
[04:18.900 --> 04:21.060]  Not for people like us anyway.
[04:21.380 --> 04:21.580]  Gila?
[04:22.240 --> 04:28.240]  Not for people like us, but I do remember seeing something about during the polio epidemic.
[04:29.000 --> 04:31.480]  There were classes being taught over the radio.
[04:32.220 --> 04:38.600]  Kids couldn't go to school, but they were learning remotely, even before screens in the way that we have them now.
[04:38.740 --> 04:40.280]  I would love to know more about that.
[04:40.380 --> 04:44.620]  In fact, I'm sure there are recordings, what particular radio stations were involved in that.
[04:51.620 --> 04:53.160]  That fell into our laps.
[04:53.300 --> 04:55.620]  Well, we'll talk about how that happened a little bit later on.
[04:55.720 --> 05:01.800]  But radio history is the most amazing thing, particularly here in New York City and the surrounding areas.
[05:02.160 --> 05:11.180]  So many stations and ahead of them all, WBAI, with our stories over the years, and some of them over the last five years.
[05:11.680 --> 05:14.300]  Alex, looks like you have something to say this time.
[05:15.460 --> 05:16.560]  No, I didn't.
[05:16.600 --> 05:17.920]  I didn't have anything to say.
[05:18.100 --> 05:18.340]  Okay.
[05:18.820 --> 05:19.340]  Well...
[05:19.340 --> 05:20.620]  I'm just sitting here listening.
[05:20.800 --> 05:21.200]  Okay.
[05:21.820 --> 05:24.420]  We have some interesting news in the world of hacking.
[05:24.640 --> 05:27.140]  Guess who has been hacking into our computers lately?
[05:29.720 --> 05:37.420]  I'm going to guess that it's perhaps a federal agency that begins with F and ends with B-I.
[05:38.560 --> 05:43.160]  You know, I've told you, Alex, not to read the news stories before you get on the air.
[05:43.160 --> 05:45.540]  Because when you do, you have all the answers.
[05:45.740 --> 05:48.860]  And that just makes you into a smart aleck, and nobody likes a smart aleck.
[05:48.920 --> 05:49.460]  Yes, you're right.
[05:49.540 --> 05:51.800]  The FBI has been hacking into our computers.
[05:51.800 --> 05:52.700]  How do you like that?
[05:53.780 --> 06:02.320]  Well, actually, you know, all the stories I've seen on this have been rather vague as to what specific computers we're talking about.
[06:03.020 --> 06:08.980]  And I'm looking at a story from The Guardian, and they say the FBI has been hacking into the computers of U.S.
[06:09.160 --> 06:13.040]  companies running insecure versions of Microsoft software.
[06:13.710 --> 06:16.800]  Okay, first of all, it's kind of a redundant sentence, right?
[06:17.060 --> 06:20.200]  If you're running Microsoft software, you can assume it's insecure.
[06:20.360 --> 06:21.860]  But regardless, I'll let that go.
[06:22.900 --> 06:32.340]  But the operation approved by a federal court involved the FBI hacking into, and this is an odd number, hundreds of vulnerable computers.
[06:32.520 --> 06:34.060]  Seems like the number would be much higher than that.
[06:34.760 --> 06:44.300]  And that's to remove malware placed there by an earlier malicious hacking campaign, which Microsoft blamed on a Chinese hacking group known as Hafnium.
[06:44.640 --> 06:49.860]  Now, Hafnium's operation placed backdoors into tens of thousands of servers.
[06:49.860 --> 06:51.660]  Now, that's a number that's more realistic.
[06:52.280 --> 07:00.740]  Running Microsoft's Exchange software, which allows businesses to manage emails, contacts, and calendars for their employees.
[07:01.060 --> 07:08.840]  It took advantage of a weakness in the servers, which has now been fixed, to plant the malware, which allowed the hackers to return at a later date.
[07:08.840 --> 07:22.240]  The FBI's campaign uses the same weakness in the hundreds of servers that have still not been patched to hack the hackers, breaking into the vulnerable computers and removing the backdoors entirely.
[07:22.600 --> 07:34.520]  But, you know, in order to find those hundreds that have not yet patched the security hole, that means the FBI has been trying tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of computers to see if it's been patched.
[07:34.700 --> 07:40.420]  And if it's not patched, they simply break in and fix it for you.
[07:40.600 --> 07:41.660]  What do you guys think of that?
[07:44.260 --> 07:49.240]  I know a bunch of InfoSec types who are angry that the feds are now taking their jobs.
[07:49.680 --> 08:07.980]  But the implications of this story, though, in the public mind are a bit interesting, because I've seen more than one InfoSec person lament now that people like laypersons out there are now going to think they do not need to take care of their own security as much as they should,
[08:08.060 --> 08:10.200]  because they're like, well, the FBI is handling that now.
[08:10.640 --> 08:11.140]  I'll be safe.
[08:11.440 --> 08:13.740]  Literally, Big Brother will come and fix it for you.
[08:13.940 --> 08:31.320]  Well, you know, I just remember back in the early days when we were basically every other day, it seemed legitimized, trying to legitimize the very existence of hackers and saying that a lot of what hackers do is a public service, because they're pointing out security flaws.
[08:31.480 --> 08:40.640]  And the hostility, the hostility and the contempt which that argument was met, saying, I did not tell you or invite you to access my computer.
[08:40.640 --> 08:46.540]  It's the same thing as going into my house, and I will shoot you through the computer somehow if you do it again.
[08:46.920 --> 08:51.940]  People were not pleased that this public service was going on without their permission.
[08:52.080 --> 08:54.940]  And I just wonder, did the FBI take this into account?
[08:54.940 --> 09:01.900]  Because there were some of the people saying that to us at the very beginning, that you didn't have permission to go and try and make things better.
[09:02.200 --> 09:04.440]  And now here they are doing that very thing.
[09:06.820 --> 09:07.580]  Yes, Alex.
[09:08.640 --> 09:12.000]  This is such an interesting issue, actually.
[09:12.000 --> 09:17.660]  And I knew about this because I researched this quite extensively last night.
[09:17.660 --> 09:27.500]  I was quoted in an article by Jeremy Kirk today on Bank Info Security about this particular issue.
[09:27.680 --> 09:56.560]  And what's really fascinating here, too, is I don't know if you remember back in 2016, there was some hubbub about rule changes to the federal rules of criminal procedure, and in particular, there's something known as Rule 41 that allowed a judge essentially to issue a search warrant that would allow the FBI or law enforcement to access computers or places that were outside of its judicial
[09:56.560 --> 09:57.000]  district.
[09:57.000 --> 10:02.620]  I remember specifically talking about this five years ago on the show.
[10:02.620 --> 10:18.980]  And, you know, the community was up in arms about this, you know, but the problem that this Rule 41 change was trying to address was that the legal system allows judges to have authority within their own judicial district.
[10:19.340 --> 10:40.840]  But if you're dealing with issues like terrorism or child pornography, you know, the usual subjects on which we generally cash in our civil liberties, it becomes very difficult for a judge to determine whether, you know, action is taking place within its own judicial district.
[10:41.160 --> 10:54.960]  And so issuing a search warrant could become almost impossible, especially if a threat actor or a criminal or child pornographer is taking advantage of something like the Tor network, where your activity is routed through multiple hops.
[10:54.960 --> 10:57.960]  And it becomes very difficult to determine where you are physically in the world.
[10:58.160 --> 11:15.280]  So these Rule 41 changes were really intended to help the government battle things like online terrorism, pornography, and also to be able to take down botnets, because those are things that exist outside of the normal parameters of a physical judicial district.
[11:15.600 --> 11:27.340]  But this case, I think a lot of people were saying that this was the first time that Rule 41 was used to allow the FBI to do something like this to actually make modifications on servers.
[11:27.620 --> 11:29.400]  I don't think it necessarily is.
[11:29.460 --> 11:33.860]  I think Rule 41 has been used in the past to take down botnets.
[11:34.280 --> 11:43.800]  But, you know, all that being said, there's a lot of very serious issues that arise from the FBI doing exactly what it did.
[11:43.800 --> 11:54.700]  I mean, from a cybersecurity perspective, the FBI has introduced change into the environments of many premises and their exchange servers.
[11:55.020 --> 11:59.780]  I mean, minor as it may be, it's still a federal government law enforcement agency.
[11:59.920 --> 12:03.000]  And this is what I had said to Jeremy Kirk, the reporter.
[12:03.340 --> 12:07.700]  You know, this is still a federal government law enforcement agency paternalistically.
[12:07.700 --> 12:13.460]  And by paternalism, I mean, that's the word that means they know better than you.
[12:13.600 --> 12:15.500]  They're telling you what you should be doing.
[12:15.700 --> 12:17.780]  It comes from the Latin word pater, for father, right?
[12:17.920 --> 12:19.400]  They're acting like our parents.
[12:19.480 --> 12:29.520]  So they're accessing our private servers and altering our private data without, and here's a critical point, without notice to the data owners or the controllers.
[12:30.040 --> 12:31.240]  That's what's really crazy.
[12:31.440 --> 12:32.280]  Now, this is...
[12:32.280 --> 12:32.960]  Go ahead.
[12:32.960 --> 12:44.040]  Well, the FBI says they're attempting to notify all the owners of the affected computers by either sending them an email from an official FBI email account or emailing their internet service providers.
[12:44.180 --> 12:44.880]  I find it interesting.
[12:44.980 --> 12:52.380]  They say they're attempting to do that, which means they haven't done it with everybody yet, or maybe they never will.
[12:52.960 --> 13:01.580]  Well, it's a little too late, and from my perspective, because you've already had the government accessing your server, right?
[13:01.580 --> 13:03.360]  They've caused some kind of change.
[13:03.520 --> 13:06.600]  They've caused data that was there at one point to not be there now.
[13:07.060 --> 13:09.200]  And that's a big problem, right?
[13:09.280 --> 13:13.880]  And so all of this post-hoc notification, things are already done, right?
[13:14.100 --> 13:32.620]  Now, here's another interesting possibility that I had dreamt up last night, which is there is a chance that those very web shells that the FBI received judicial authorization to remove may have remained on these exchange servers deliberately.
[13:32.660 --> 13:49.800]  They might have been honeypots, so that an organization could potentially identify what threat actors were after, what data these threat actors were actually seeking, and perhaps maybe even gather some information and some data about who these threat actors are,
[13:49.960 --> 14:02.200]  about who the hafnium group is, or because these exchange vulnerabilities were so prevalent and being exploited so widely, this could have been any number of states, threat actors, criminal groups, et cetera, that were after an organization.
[14:02.400 --> 14:12.820]  So if the FBI caused those web shells to be deleted, web shells that were left there deliberately as a honeypot, they may have compromised intelligence-gathering procedures.
[14:12.820 --> 14:13.500]  Absolutely.
[14:13.820 --> 14:15.660]  And who would be liable for that?
[14:15.780 --> 14:24.000]  Is the FBI going to pick up the tab if they screwed up an intelligence-gathering operation on which an organization may have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars?
[14:24.140 --> 14:27.520]  Now, it should be pointed out that they didn't fix the vulnerability.
[14:27.520 --> 14:35.880]  They simply removed the malware that supposedly had been placed by this hacker group from China.
[14:36.540 --> 14:50.720]  But, you know, I find it really interesting because you remember the house analogy, the dreaded house analogy we had to deal with back in the 80s and 90s, that's where somebody would try to compare a computer intrusion with intruding into someone's house.
[14:50.940 --> 14:59.100]  I always found issue with that because, first of all, logging into a massive computer system is not the same thing as entering somebody's house.
[15:00.200 --> 15:04.120]  But people would try and say, I feel violated all the same.
[15:04.640 --> 15:05.800]  There are so many ways it's different.
[15:05.880 --> 15:07.880]  But I'd like to use that analogy now.
[15:08.040 --> 15:21.540]  I'd like to be on the other side of that analogy and say, well, what if you had a lock on your front door that wasn't the best lock there was and that actually there were some vulnerabilities and people could potentially get into your house?
[15:21.680 --> 15:32.020]  How would you feel if you woke up one day and there was a new lock on your door that you didn't ask for and that somebody had just put there because they knew better than you?
[15:32.220 --> 15:34.640]  I mean, yeah, it's kind of a nice thing to do.
[15:35.300 --> 15:39.980]  But it's also kind of disturbing to have somebody just sort of oversee you like that.
[15:43.120 --> 15:44.480]  Yeah, no doubt.
[15:44.960 --> 15:53.600]  And I think, you know, you raise, I think, also another very important point here that they didn't patch the other vulnerabilities on the server.
[15:53.740 --> 16:02.840]  They only removed the web shells that were placed there that would facilitate the remote access that these threat actors had to these particular servers.
[16:03.140 --> 16:16.500]  So in that context, it should be obvious that this is a very drastic government action to remove a vulnerability, but it can't be stressed enough that these drastic actions didn't actually solve the problem.
[16:16.500 --> 16:17.600]  They weren't a pastia.
[16:17.880 --> 16:38.220]  I mean, the Department of Justice itself, in its press release about this operation, conceded that the threat actors may have placed additional malware, perhaps things like root kits or other remote access tools to facilitate continued access to these servers on the victim exchange servers themselves.
[16:38.720 --> 16:46.100]  And it also, you know, it needs to be said that removing the web shells doesn't mean that the web shells can't be replaced there.
[16:47.000 --> 16:50.500]  So, you know, they left the vulnerabilities in place, removed the web shells.
[16:50.500 --> 17:02.720]  And another, I think, crazy issue that arises from this is that there's also an inherent danger in executing the code of threat actors.
[17:03.100 --> 17:14.360]  The way in which the FBI removed these web shells was by using the actual code of the threat actors itself, by using the programs that they had designed.
[17:14.360 --> 17:34.600]  So it's entirely possible to dream up a situation where a sophisticated group of cyber adversaries or threat actors anticipate and, in fact, maybe even encourage law enforcement like the FBI to utilize what appears to be some kind of built-in remote destruction capabilities,
[17:35.160 --> 17:37.980]  but they may actually be booby-trapped.
[17:38.040 --> 17:39.780]  They may actually be malicious code.
[17:39.780 --> 17:55.920]  So instead of perhaps removing this en masse like they thought was going to happen, it would be entirely possible to dream up a situation where instead of a removal procedure, perhaps the malicious code started encrypting data, started deploying ransomware.
[17:56.240 --> 18:07.400]  So, you know, I think you can call me old-fashioned, but I don't trust the code of foreign adversaries to do what it appears to be designed to do.
[18:07.400 --> 18:10.400]  And I think that's what the FBI did in this situation.
[18:10.580 --> 18:13.140]  Only foreign adversaries or adversaries in general?
[18:14.760 --> 18:15.960]  Just foreign adversaries.
[18:16.120 --> 18:20.460]  I trust my local domestic American adversaries, you know, very well.
[18:20.600 --> 18:21.540]  Oh, you poor fool.
[18:22.240 --> 18:22.480]  Yeah.
[18:22.980 --> 18:31.900]  Well, you know, I just wonder, if somebody were to place that code on their own site, would the FBI come knocking and remove it?
[18:31.900 --> 18:38.480]  And if so, would you be able to get information about their servers, their systems that were accessing your system?
[18:38.700 --> 18:52.940]  I'm just trying to figure out how many ways the system can be confused, their system can be confused, and what adversaries of any nation can learn from these do-gooders that are going out trying to erase what they believe to be malware.
[18:55.140 --> 18:57.160]  Yeah, I mean, that's a good question, too.
[18:57.260 --> 19:00.060]  I wonder about, you know, what traces they left on these servers.
[19:00.260 --> 19:08.600]  And then, you know, the other thing that arises from this, too, which is more personal and political, I think, than anything else.
[19:08.720 --> 19:15.040]  But, you know, what if you were one of these system administrators that had this done to your Exchange servers?
[19:15.040 --> 19:18.720]  I mean, there's going to be some issue of stigma that arises from this.
[19:18.720 --> 19:31.440]  I mean, plenty of CISOs or IT administrators who were running these on-premises Exchange servers that the FBI altered were going to be in a sort of awkward situation to have to explain why they didn't remove the web shells themselves.
[19:33.460 --> 19:36.160]  But also, there's any number of reasons why.
[19:36.360 --> 19:41.200]  I mean, for instance, sure, they could have been using it as a honeypot, or they may have been completely under-resourced.
[19:41.280 --> 19:43.540]  They might not have had the resources to pay attention to this.
[19:43.780 --> 19:49.180]  Or it might have been a disused Exchange server that the FBI then accessed and altered.
[19:49.400 --> 20:02.100]  Or perhaps they're under-resourced, and they are putting out 10 other fires that may relate to other exploits, you know, from the Hafnium group that were placed on their servers.
[20:02.180 --> 20:17.240]  So, you know, I don't think we can blame the victim here, but the FBI coming out proactively and doing the job of what IT administrators and CISOs would ordinarily be doing can place those very people in a strange situation where they may not be happy with the FBI.
[20:17.460 --> 20:37.440]  And in a time where what we hear from the federal government and all of our federal agencies is that we need more cooperation between the federal sector and the private sector, I'm not sure if this type of proactive let-me-go-get-it-for-you activity from the FBI is going to encourage any of that collaboration going forward.
[20:39.660 --> 20:40.260]  Yes, Rob.
[20:40.260 --> 20:40.540]  I'm done.
[20:40.860 --> 20:41.620]  Rob, do you have something?
[20:43.340 --> 20:46.580]  No, I think that was very well put and well said.
[20:47.080 --> 20:50.000]  And also, I still don't trust the feds.
[20:50.640 --> 20:52.640]  Okay, that's probably a good policy.
[20:53.180 --> 20:56.300]  But we're going to continue talking about the feds because there is more.
[20:56.840 --> 21:07.020]  Remember that story about five years ago, the San Bernardino shooting, where the FBI got into a standoff with Apple about unlocking an iPhone.
[21:08.740 --> 21:17.960]  Yeah, well, it turned out it was unlocked by a third party that up until fairly recently was kind of anonymous.
[21:18.140 --> 21:32.080]  But it turns out, Asma Security, a publicity-shy company that says it sells its cyberwares only to democratic governments, secretly crafted the solution the FBI used to gain access to the device.
[21:32.260 --> 21:34.900]  And that's according to several people familiar with the matter.
[21:35.020 --> 21:41.580]  The iPhone was used by one of the two shooters whose December 2015 attack left more than a dozen people dead.
[21:42.080 --> 21:46.380]  The identity of the hacking firm has remained a closely guarded secret for five years.
[21:46.780 --> 21:52.040]  Even Apple didn't know which vendor the FBI used, according to company spokesman Todd Wilder.
[21:52.120 --> 22:01.720]  But without realizing it, Apple's attorneys came close last year to learning of Asimov's role through a different court case, one that has nothing to do with unlocking a terrorist device.
[22:02.300 --> 22:07.260]  Five years ago, Apple and the FBI both cast the struggle of the iPhone as a moral battle.
[22:07.480 --> 22:12.040]  The FBI believed Apple should help it obtain information to investigate the terrorist attack.
[22:12.460 --> 22:17.620]  Apple believed that creating a backdoor into the phone would weaken security and could be used by malicious actors.
[22:17.860 --> 22:22.220]  The FBI sought a court order to compel Apple to help the government.
[22:22.560 --> 22:28.520]  Weeks later, the FBI backed down after it found an outside group that had a solution to gain access to the phone.
[22:30.140 --> 22:47.740]  The tale of the unlocking of this iPhone, which was reconstructed through Washington Post interviews with several people close to the situation, shines a light on the hidden world of bug hunters and their often fraught relationship with the creators of the devices whose flaws they uncover.
[22:48.100 --> 22:52.260]  Now, Asimov is a poster child for white hat hacking, according to experts.
[22:52.260 --> 22:58.580]  That's good guy cybersecurity research that aims to disclose flaws and disavows authoritarian governments.
[22:58.920 --> 23:03.420]  Two Asimov hackers teamed up to break into the San Bernardino iPhone.
[23:03.740 --> 23:10.820]  That's according to people familiar with the matter who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive matters.
[23:11.480 --> 23:20.200]  Now, founder Mark Dowd is an Australian coder who runs marathons and who one colleague said can pretty much look at a computer and break into it.
[23:20.340 --> 23:22.060]  Yeah, I'd like to test that out.
[23:22.260 --> 23:32.160]  One of his researchers was David Wang who first set hands on a keyboard at age eight, dropped out of Yale and by 27 had a prestigious Pony Award.
[23:32.160 --> 23:33.440]  That's PWNIE.
[23:33.660 --> 23:39.620]  An Oscar for hackers for jailbreaking or removing the software restrictions of an iPhone.
[23:40.940 --> 23:45.820]  Many security researchers say it's legitimate to sell these flaws to democratic governments.
[23:46.410 --> 23:52.100]  And the ability of government agencies to unlock iPhones has also spared Apple from direct conflict with those governments.
[23:52.700 --> 24:02.200]  For instance, by unlocking the terrorist iPhone, some say Asimuth came to Apple's rescue by ending a case that could have led to a court-ordered backdoor to the iPhone.
[24:02.520 --> 24:04.760]  And we were all concerned about that five years ago.
[24:04.880 --> 24:13.920]  Now, it turns out when the FBI got the phone unlocked, there was nothing of real significance, no links to foreign terrorists, nothing like that was found.
[24:20.980 --> 24:24.640]  and sought to recruit Wang to work on security research.
[24:24.800 --> 24:27.700]  I believe they didn't know that he was involved in this at that point.
[24:28.360 --> 24:33.420]  Instead, in 2017, he founded a company called Corellium based in South Florida.
[24:33.620 --> 24:39.940]  Their tools help security researchers run tests on Apple's mobile operating system using virtual iPhones.
[24:40.340 --> 24:43.900]  And those virtual phones run on a server and display on a desktop computer.
[24:44.420 --> 24:48.640]  And in 2019, get this, Apple sued Corellium for copyright violation.
[24:48.920 --> 24:58.480]  As part of the lawsuit, Apple pressed Corellium and Wang to divulge information about hacking techniques that may have aided governments and agencies such as the FBI.
[24:59.160 --> 25:11.900]  In its lawsuit, Apple argued that Corellium has no plausible defense for infringing on Apple's copyright in part because it indiscriminately markets its iPhone replicas to any customer, including foreign governments and commercial enterprises.
[25:12.180 --> 25:14.000]  Corellium has denied that allegations.
[25:14.000 --> 25:17.240]  It's counted that the lawsuit is an attempt to put it out of business.
[25:17.400 --> 25:22.100]  Following a failed attempt by Apple to purchase the company in 2018.
[25:23.260 --> 25:33.400]  Yeah, a month or two after the FBI unlocked the iPhone, the San Bernardino iPhone, Mozilla discovered the flaw in the software and patched it in a routine update.
[25:34.040 --> 25:39.840]  So did vendors that relied on the software, including Apple, and the exploit has since been rendered useless.
[25:40.460 --> 25:41.300]  I don't know.
[25:41.380 --> 25:56.020]  You know, I see a lot in this story that these independent companies, they really can serve the purpose that it would be very dangerous for a company like Apple or Google for them to be expected to do this, to unlock their phones.
[25:56.040 --> 26:09.180]  If some hacker someplace can figure out how to get in, doesn't that solve the problem of having a company have a backdoor or have to be required to have a backdoor?
[26:10.240 --> 26:18.960]  I really think Apple should be grateful to the person that they're trying to sue because imagine if they had not come along, this would have wound up in court.
[26:19.120 --> 26:23.800]  We could very well be in a society now where backdoors were considered mandatory.
[26:24.540 --> 26:26.140]  Alex, what are your legal thoughts on that?
[26:27.900 --> 26:34.560]  Well, I think this is the Corellium cases is actually quite near and dear to me.
[26:34.560 --> 26:50.680]  And in fact, one of my colleagues from my old days at the law firm of Steptoe & Johnson, David Hecht, who is now with Hecht's Partners, he was actually, he rather is, co-counsel for Corellium in its battle against Apple.
[26:51.480 --> 27:11.140]  And I believe that a couple of months ago, right at the end of 2020, there was a ruling from the federal district court that ruled in favor of Corellium that found that what they were doing with respect to the virtualization of iPhones and iOS was fair use under copyright law,
[27:11.160 --> 27:13.480]  which I thought was great.
[27:13.740 --> 27:39.680]  And, you know, I think I was actually quoted in a Washington Post article as well about this particular victory because it is a, it's pretty significant for security researchers to be able to virtualize and test distinct components of this kind of third-party software for security vulnerabilities because prior to this ruling,
[27:40.020 --> 27:43.400]  what was preventing them from doing this was potential legal liability.
[27:44.100 --> 27:57.520]  But from an encryption perspective, I don't know if it necessarily solves the problem to have a third-party in the possession of vulnerability that could be used to unlock an iPhone.
[27:57.600 --> 27:59.240]  I don't think it entirely solves the problem.
[27:59.240 --> 28:26.880]  and we know it entirely, it doesn't entirely solve the problem because the Department of Justice is still going after what they call lawful access requirements or some what we would otherwise call an encryption backdoor or some kind of backdoor security feature that would allow the government to have access based on some kind of judicial authorization to an iPhone or otherwise encrypted device or
[28:26.880 --> 28:27.480]  communication.
[28:27.940 --> 28:30.540]  So, you know, the governments are still going after this.
[28:30.700 --> 28:32.640]  Security researchers are still pushing back.
[28:33.500 --> 28:41.720]  Everyone on our side that's following the data, following the science knows that any kind of encryption backdoor would be a terrible, terrible idea.
[28:42.920 --> 29:03.680]  But one other issue that arises to me in the context of having third parties in the possession of these really critical vulnerabilities is that some of these companies may be unscrupulous and they may sell them to countries that don't have the greatest record of respect for human rights,
[29:03.920 --> 29:04.420]  let's say.
[29:05.140 --> 29:42.240]  They may use them to access iPhone data or any kind of data to identify whether people are part of a certain class or part of a certain religion maybe homosexuals or some other characteristic that would allow government to target minority populations and so I think it's very tricky to say that somebody should have a repository of this type of security information or security vulnerabilities
[29:42.660 --> 29:44.080]  ...without it being really dangerous.
[29:44.360 --> 29:56.600]  I mean, I believe in disclosing this type of data to Apple so that they can patch it and we can all believe in the security of our products and all have some greater level of faith in it.
[29:57.020 --> 29:59.600]  I think sharing is caring when it comes to this kind of data.
[30:01.320 --> 30:01.900]  Yes, Gila?
[30:02.960 --> 30:04.860]  I'm sorry, I just had a... no, I had an itch.
[30:04.900 --> 30:05.800]  Oh, you were raising a hand for that.
[30:05.880 --> 30:06.040]  Okay.
[30:06.240 --> 30:06.800]  Rob, go ahead.
[30:08.200 --> 30:22.360]  There's also the other end of this where we live in a world where you can do things if you're adept enough or if you get an adept community together to put together things like alternative operating systems, free operating systems, operating systems that are open source,
[30:22.500 --> 30:26.240]  that the code is shared all over the world for completely free.
[30:26.440 --> 30:31.020]  And what would happen if we had an ecosystem of required backdoors?
[30:31.340 --> 30:36.120]  You can't tell a community, an international community of coders, that they have to put in a backdoor.
[30:36.120 --> 30:39.460]  And if you do, that backdoor will be open source and everyone will know the vulnerability.
[30:39.900 --> 30:46.380]  So it's like it is not a it is not a practical thing to require of people making all operating systems.
[30:46.680 --> 30:53.440]  But if the commercial operating systems did it, then, you know, where's where's the level playing field that everyone loves so much?
[30:53.880 --> 30:58.000]  Because everyone concerned with security could just go to an alternative one.
[30:58.540 --> 31:08.020]  There's also the fact that just if you lock the front door of your house, but the backdoor is required to be left unlocked with a sign on it saying authority figures only, that is not good security practice.
[31:09.920 --> 31:11.000]  Well said, yes.
[31:11.840 --> 31:17.800]  Okay, you know, I want to get to the the promise part of the program now where we look at a bit of radio history.
[31:18.520 --> 31:30.340]  And for this, we need to know a couple of things as far as how networks of radio stations, particular radio stations would communicate with each other.
[31:31.140 --> 31:36.220]  In this particular case, we're going to be looking at CBS, the network CBS.
[31:36.620 --> 31:45.240]  Now, we've mentioned that we're working on a whole bunch of audio to release this year, old shows and interviews and things like that.
[31:45.240 --> 31:46.800]  We have a massive library.
[31:47.060 --> 31:55.400]  And some of the things that we found have absolutely nothing to do with us at Off the Hook or 2600 or even any of us personally.
[31:55.400 --> 31:57.020]  This is one of those items.
[31:57.020 --> 32:03.440]  This has to do with a network that a communications network that CBS used to run.
[32:03.720 --> 32:09.680]  It used to be called the radio stations news service, RSNS.
[32:09.920 --> 32:19.440]  But before that, it was known as PLNX, which basically is a private line news exchange.
[32:19.440 --> 32:34.380]  This was a communications network that people in news departments at CBS-owned stations throughout the country, most of which were all news, would use to communicate with each other when there was a breaking story or even when there wasn't a breaking story,
[32:34.400 --> 32:36.820]  just to coordinate programming.
[32:37.260 --> 32:39.780]  Okay, so we know something about CBS.
[32:39.780 --> 32:41.520]  This is back in the 1970s.
[32:41.520 --> 32:44.100]  And we know about their communications network.
[32:44.780 --> 32:49.440]  The other thing we need to know about is someone named Bubbles the Hippo.
[32:50.080 --> 32:57.500]  Yeah, Bubbles the Hippo was a hippopotamus from Orange County, California.
[32:59.120 --> 33:11.080]  And he basically, or I'm sorry, she managed to burrow under her fence, squeeze past a barricade, and lumber away from her pen back in February of 1978.
[33:11.760 --> 33:15.900]  And this was at the old Lion Country Safari Animal Park in Irvine, California.
[33:16.380 --> 33:25.380]  She found a marshy drainage pit and settled in for a standoff with park rangers, rarely showing much more than her nostrils above the waterline.
[33:25.680 --> 33:32.100]  Crowds gathered, television cameras arrived, even Johnny Carson was having a laugh at the wayward hippo in Orange County.
[33:33.300 --> 33:39.100]  But Bubbles emerged from her watery hideout a few days into her escape and was greeted with a tranquilizer dart.
[33:39.680 --> 33:41.320]  She crumpled to the ground.
[33:41.440 --> 33:44.560]  Three rangers approached and one tapped her with a wooden pole.
[33:47.680 --> 33:54.820]  Bubbles roused with a mighty snort, the register reported, and promptly treed two rangers and sent the third scampering.
[33:55.980 --> 33:59.440]  Bubbles flicked her tail and rumbled back into the pond.
[34:00.020 --> 34:08.840]  For 19 days, Bubbles wallowed in her pond as news helicopters clattered overhead and highway patrol officers directed traffic on nearby roads.
[34:09.000 --> 34:13.500]  She refused to budge, even when rangers baited a huge net with her favorite food, which was alfalfa.
[34:13.880 --> 34:22.380]  And then, as night fell on her 19th day of freedom, Bubbles pulled herself out of the shallows and wandered up a nearby hill.
[34:22.760 --> 34:26.620]  A ranger approached her in the dark and shot her with two tranquilizer darts.
[34:26.760 --> 34:29.940]  She staggered for a few more steps before her knees gave out and she collapsed.
[34:29.940 --> 34:33.880]  A veterinarian arrived and gave her a dose of a potent, calming drug.
[34:34.360 --> 34:42.660]  The cheering and back-slabbing of her capture soon turned to disbelief and then tears as the park rangers realized that Bubbles had stopped breathing.
[34:43.460 --> 34:53.440]  The official story from Lion Country Safari has always been that Bubbles fell in an awkward position on the hill and her heavy internal organs pressed against her lungs, suffocating her.
[34:54.280 --> 35:09.040]  Well, what I'd like to play now is audio that somehow fell into our possession of CBS News employees communicating amongst themselves, coordinating what to put on the air in the wake of the story.
[35:09.180 --> 35:10.420]  Run this in about 10 minutes.
[35:10.660 --> 35:10.880]  Enjoy.
[35:14.770 --> 35:20.390]  Okay, or don't enjoy as we figure out what's wrong with our equipment here.
[35:20.630 --> 35:21.270]  That should have worked.
[35:24.510 --> 35:25.410]  Let me try it again.
[35:39.660 --> 35:39.760]  Let's see.
[35:40.440 --> 35:40.980]  Spon up.
[35:42.420 --> 35:42.820]  Bratрод.
[35:43.240 --> 35:43.740]  St. Louis.
[35:44.000 --> 35:45.140]  St. Louis, ETAF.
[35:45.320 --> 35:46.500]  St. Louis Sessions with an advisory.
[35:46.740 --> 35:51.920]  If you noticed, UPI I think it's 0043, it's on Bubbles and Hippo.
[35:52.260 --> 35:52.580]  Yeah.
[35:52.760 --> 35:53.520]  It's being recaptured.
[35:54.920 --> 35:57.020]  We've just found out that Bubbles is dead.
[35:57.940 --> 35:58.340]  What?
[35:58.960 --> 35:59.780]  Bubbles is dead.
[36:00.160 --> 36:00.280]  No!
[36:01.100 --> 36:02.500]  We don't have anyone available.
[36:02.800 --> 36:03.420]  Bubbles is dead.
[36:03.620 --> 36:03.860]  What happened?
[36:05.140 --> 36:07.780]  They tranquilized her and they don't know if there was a drug reaction or what.
[36:07.940 --> 36:08.300]  Net alert.
[36:08.420 --> 36:08.680]  Net alert.
[36:09.260 --> 36:10.200]  Oh, God.
[36:10.720 --> 36:11.820]  Yeah, the cause is unknown.
[36:12.200 --> 36:13.260]  That's a national emergency.
[36:13.400 --> 36:15.260]  I gotta kill all the sound I have now.
[36:15.660 --> 36:16.260]  Number 9.
[36:16.340 --> 36:17.640]  That's number 9 coming right up.
[36:17.960 --> 36:18.400]  Right.
[36:19.100 --> 36:19.220]  Yeah.
[36:19.640 --> 36:22.380]  Is this for sure that Bubbles is dead, though?
[36:22.440 --> 36:23.200]  Bubbles is dead.
[36:23.420 --> 36:24.420]  I'm gonna cry.
[36:25.480 --> 36:26.420]  How did it happen?
[36:27.060 --> 36:27.740]  How did it happen?
[36:27.900 --> 36:29.160]  Well, they tranquilized her.
[36:29.260 --> 36:32.520]  They shot her twice, and they don't know the cause.
[36:32.640 --> 36:34.040]  They don't know if it was drug-related or what.
[36:34.300 --> 36:35.740]  I can see the headlines now.
[36:35.860 --> 36:36.860]  Hippo OD'd.
[36:36.860 --> 36:37.920]  Hippo OD'd.
[36:38.160 --> 36:38.860]  Film at 11.
[36:39.260 --> 36:39.900]  Yeah, right.
[36:41.240 --> 36:44.660]  Unfortunately, we don't have anyone available that can prepare anything for a while, so...
[36:44.660 --> 36:46.720]  Must be all that bad weather you're having.
[36:47.000 --> 36:48.920]  If you want a phone number, I can give you a phone number for the...
[36:49.320 --> 36:50.000]  For Bubbles?
[36:50.160 --> 36:50.760]  For the park.
[36:51.600 --> 36:53.060]  When will you have somebody, uh...
[36:53.060 --> 36:53.440]  Yeah, we do.
[36:53.560 --> 36:54.200]  Quite some time.
[36:54.340 --> 36:55.300]  Who can do the hippo story.
[36:55.560 --> 36:56.000]  That'll be a little...
[36:56.540 --> 36:59.460]  We want four raps and five actualities on it.
[37:00.180 --> 37:01.400]  I want sound effect, Dave.
[37:01.480 --> 37:05.640]  If anybody wants to talk to a teary-eyed park spokeswoman, you can.
[37:05.640 --> 37:06.100]  Oh.
[37:06.300 --> 37:10.180]  They must have had one hell of a time trying to wheel her in on a stretcher.
[37:11.000 --> 37:12.940]  Do you have any sound on it already, this San Fran?
[37:13.140 --> 37:13.760]  No, we don't.
[37:14.220 --> 37:14.600]  No, we don't.
[37:14.900 --> 37:16.920]  I figure San Fran would want some sound.
[37:17.120 --> 37:17.580]  Oh, yeah.
[37:17.860 --> 37:18.700]  San Fran always wants sound.
[37:18.800 --> 37:18.920]  Right.
[37:19.340 --> 37:19.840]  Well, you know.
[37:20.060 --> 37:21.420]  Who's in charge of the arrangements?
[37:21.840 --> 37:22.020]  Yeah.
[37:26.360 --> 37:28.080]  How can you joke at a time like this?
[37:29.300 --> 37:29.780]  Wow.
[37:30.020 --> 37:31.840]  Well, thanks for the bulletin, Los Angeles.
[37:35.850 --> 37:37.410]  Can we send donations anywhere?
[37:39.850 --> 37:41.530]  Let's set up a bubbles fund.
[37:41.790 --> 37:42.950]  I think that's a good idea.
[37:43.970 --> 37:44.410]  All right.
[37:44.630 --> 37:46.010]  For, you know, wayward hippos.
[37:46.910 --> 37:47.290]  Bye-bye.
[37:59.860 --> 38:00.360]  Chicago.
[38:00.660 --> 38:00.900]  Millie.
[38:01.000 --> 38:01.220]  Boston.
[38:02.320 --> 38:02.780]  New York.
[38:03.540 --> 38:03.880]  San Fran.
[38:04.660 --> 38:05.100]  Toronto.
[38:05.900 --> 38:06.720]  I know what's coming.
[38:06.980 --> 38:07.380]  New York.
[38:07.520 --> 38:07.860]  Right.
[38:08.120 --> 38:08.520]  Bubbles.
[38:08.860 --> 38:09.880]  This is Stations LA.
[38:10.080 --> 38:11.020]  We're offering a voicer.
[38:11.020 --> 38:11.700]  T.O.P.
[38:11.760 --> 38:12.060]  Washington.
[38:12.520 --> 38:13.740]  The reporter is Tom Brown.
[38:13.880 --> 38:15.800]  We're offering a voicer on the death of Bubbles.
[38:20.200 --> 38:22.740]  The flags are flying at half-staff in Philadelphia.
[38:24.140 --> 38:24.940]  Half-staff?
[38:25.980 --> 38:27.780]  Where else could the city of Brotherly Love?
[38:27.860 --> 38:28.460]  It's awful.
[38:28.740 --> 38:29.300]  It's awful.
[38:29.460 --> 38:31.020]  Okay, Stations, if you're ready...
[38:31.020 --> 38:31.860]  Wait a minute, wait a minute.
[38:31.940 --> 38:33.040]  New York is not ready yet.
[38:33.520 --> 38:40.620]  Stations, by the way, this is San Francisco, and we'll have some raw tape or some tape actuality later on with the spokesman from Lyon Country.
[38:42.080 --> 38:44.320]  We're cutting it up right now, so we'll have it shortly.
[38:44.520 --> 38:46.460]  We'll be a race between you and L.A., bye.
[38:46.920 --> 38:48.440]  Okay, New York is rolling.
[38:49.100 --> 38:49.720]  One second.
[38:54.790 --> 38:55.450]  Hit it.
[38:56.070 --> 38:58.210]  Okay, Stations LA offering a voicer.
[38:58.430 --> 39:00.150]  Reporters, Tom Brown, it's on time.
[39:00.970 --> 39:01.730]  Repeat from L.A.
[39:01.750 --> 39:02.310]  in five.
[39:02.970 --> 39:06.810]  Five, four, three, two, one.
[39:07.850 --> 39:08.770]  Bubbles, the fugitive...
[39:09.230 --> 39:10.150]  That's why you...
[39:10.150 --> 39:11.230]  Tom Brown in Los Angeles.
[39:13.570 --> 39:16.410]  If there are no questions, that concludes the feed from L.A.
[39:16.890 --> 39:18.310]  Can we have a repeat on that, please?
[39:18.570 --> 39:20.010]  Uh, that was done live.
[39:20.190 --> 39:20.810]  Oh, terrific.
[39:21.090 --> 39:21.810]  Thank you, Tom Brown.
[39:23.690 --> 39:24.710]  Do you need a repeat?
[39:25.010 --> 39:25.870]  Yeah, this is San Fran.
[39:26.010 --> 39:28.970]  We were on a standard roll-up here, and we needed to roll off of it.
[39:29.350 --> 39:30.310]  Yeah, hold on a second.
[39:30.630 --> 39:32.410]  There's not a dry eye in the house here.
[39:32.410 --> 39:33.130]  Okay.
[39:33.750 --> 39:35.010]  I'll get Tom here.
[39:35.310 --> 39:36.010]  Are you rolling, San Fran?
[39:36.230 --> 39:36.550]  Right.
[39:36.810 --> 39:37.050]  Okay.
[39:38.110 --> 39:39.650]  The feed in, uh, five.
[39:40.550 --> 39:44.350]  Five, four, three, two, one.
[39:45.330 --> 39:48.570]  Bubbles, the fugitive hippopotamus who eluded captors...
[39:49.270 --> 39:49.790]  ...was dead.
[39:50.190 --> 39:52.130]  This is Tom Brown in Los Angeles.
[39:53.650 --> 39:54.690]  Okay, got it, thanks.
[39:54.850 --> 39:56.470]  Okay, we just got that hippo.
[39:56.630 --> 39:56.870]  Yeah.
[39:57.090 --> 39:57.570]  We'll...
[39:57.570 --> 40:00.170]  We'll feed that, uh, actually, I'll tell you in a little bit.
[40:00.170 --> 40:02.130]  We can't take it without a test.
[40:02.370 --> 40:02.510]  Yeah.
[40:02.930 --> 40:03.450]  Oh, terrific.
[40:04.030 --> 40:04.370]  Right.
[40:04.570 --> 40:04.750]  Okay.
[40:04.990 --> 40:05.410]  Thanks a lot.
[40:05.530 --> 40:05.790]  See ya, bye.
[40:12.170 --> 40:12.790]  L.A.
[40:13.350 --> 40:16.730]  Yeah, this is, uh, New York on your hippo feed and so forth.
[40:16.850 --> 40:17.710]  I just listened to it.
[40:17.910 --> 40:18.930]  You fed it twice.
[40:21.050 --> 40:24.710]  And, man...
[40:24.710 --> 40:26.190]  Maybe he sent it in here.
[40:26.450 --> 40:27.330]  Uh, no one cut in on me.
[40:27.690 --> 40:28.010]  Yeah.
[40:28.430 --> 40:33.430]  Uh, as I say, um, the level on it is down so far, you can hardly hear it.
[40:33.910 --> 40:37.210]  And do you have any trouble feeding live into the planks or something?
[40:37.210 --> 40:38.130]  Because, uh...
[40:38.130 --> 40:40.110]  No, why don't you check with someone else, uh...
[40:40.110 --> 40:44.210]  Well, I, you know, listening to it, just comparing it with San Fran's voice.
[40:44.630 --> 40:46.210]  You know, you were talking with him.
[40:47.730 --> 40:48.050]  You're...
[40:49.610 --> 40:51.410]  15 dB down from him.
[40:51.510 --> 40:52.650]  I'm a technician, man.
[40:52.710 --> 40:53.350]  There's none here.
[40:53.490 --> 40:56.650]  So, why don't you, if you want the feed, call one of the other stations and get it.
[40:56.770 --> 40:59.810]  Well, all I'll get is what you fed out, which would be the same thing.
[40:59.810 --> 41:00.510]  But we, I can't...
[41:00.510 --> 41:01.770]  Very noisy and low level.
[41:01.970 --> 41:02.890]  I can't give anything else to do.
[41:02.910 --> 41:03.970]  You can't do anything else with us?
[41:04.130 --> 41:05.130]  No, the guy's on the air now.
[41:05.490 --> 41:06.010]  Okie doke.
[41:06.130 --> 41:06.190]  Great.
[41:06.470 --> 41:06.750]  Bye-bye.
[41:14.740 --> 41:15.100]  Philadelphia.
[41:15.580 --> 41:15.900]  Hello.
[41:16.260 --> 41:16.480]  Hello.
[41:17.000 --> 41:17.440]  Toronto.
[41:17.860 --> 41:18.120]  Central.
[41:19.940 --> 41:20.600]  C.O.C.
[41:20.880 --> 41:21.000]  Washington.
[41:21.640 --> 41:22.600]  Stations is the network.
[41:22.780 --> 41:23.620]  Headline for the hour.
[41:24.100 --> 41:25.500]  Secretary of Vance to meet with...
[41:25.500 --> 41:28.000]  Secretary of State Vance to meet with President Carter today.
[41:28.160 --> 41:28.360]  And leave.
[41:28.900 --> 41:33.920]  In the White House in preparation of Prime Minister Begin's visit.
[41:34.460 --> 41:35.720]  You mean you're not leading with bubbles?
[41:36.400 --> 41:38.080]  No, we're not leading with bubbles.
[41:38.280 --> 41:39.100]  What kind of network is this?
[41:39.200 --> 41:40.000]  Hey, come on.
[41:40.120 --> 41:41.220]  Show a little respect.
[41:41.440 --> 41:42.940]  Is bubbles going to anchor the broadcast?
[41:43.340 --> 41:44.240]  What kind of network?
[41:44.480 --> 41:46.260]  We're switching to ABC, that's it.
[41:47.580 --> 41:48.920]  Mutual just broke in with it.
[41:49.160 --> 41:49.740]  Mutual, huh?
[41:50.060 --> 41:50.460]  Great.
[41:55.060 --> 41:55.460]  Philadelphia.
[41:55.860 --> 41:56.200]  Hi, Billy.
[41:56.340 --> 41:56.680]  T.O.P.
[41:56.760 --> 41:57.300]  Washington here.
[41:57.400 --> 41:59.060]  Can we get a forecast for you?
[41:59.120 --> 42:01.060]  Like, what's it going to be like today?
[42:02.260 --> 42:02.940]  All right.
[42:03.560 --> 42:04.600]  To wake up our leather man.
[42:04.660 --> 42:06.000]  He's still in mourning from bubbles.
[42:06.580 --> 42:08.100]  Yes, we're all mourning here, too.
[42:08.920 --> 42:11.260]  We've got writers crying, engineers who...
[42:11.260 --> 42:16.800]  Well, if you head north of 95 from Washington, and you reach the Philadelphia area, what you'll...
[42:18.800 --> 42:19.600]  All right.
[42:19.780 --> 42:21.300]  Okay, well, I've got to go back to morning bubbles.
[42:21.580 --> 42:22.300]  We'll talk to you later.
[42:22.400 --> 42:22.560]  Bye.
[42:22.740 --> 42:22.960]  Bye-bye.
[42:30.430 --> 42:30.930]  All right.
[42:30.950 --> 42:31.310]  Chicago.
[42:31.550 --> 42:31.990]  New York.
[42:32.270 --> 42:32.650]  T.O.P.
[42:32.650 --> 42:33.050]  Washington.
[42:34.530 --> 42:34.930]  Washington.
[42:35.390 --> 42:35.630]  Detroit.
[42:39.470 --> 42:40.610]  Stations, this is networked.
[42:40.610 --> 42:41.490]  Deadline for the hour.
[42:41.690 --> 42:43.730]  Cold talks resume in Washington this morning.
[42:44.430 --> 42:45.090]  What about bubbles?
[43:00.030 --> 43:00.510]  What,
[43:16.050 --> 43:16.310]  coal?
[43:16.470 --> 43:16.610]  Yeah.
[43:16.810 --> 43:17.490]  Ninety-six days.
[43:17.770 --> 43:17.870]  Yeah.
[43:19.730 --> 43:20.610]  Just say coal.
[43:20.610 --> 43:21.530]  We'll be fine.
[43:21.850 --> 43:22.050]  We'll be fine.
[43:25.500 --> 43:26.040]  We'll be fine.
[43:29.950 --> 43:30.590]  Philadelphia.
[43:31.230 --> 43:31.870]  Toronto.
[43:32.450 --> 43:32.910]  Boston.
[43:33.990 --> 43:34.490]  L.A.
[43:35.190 --> 43:35.830]  Bubblesville.
[43:36.090 --> 43:36.550]  Detroit.
[43:36.870 --> 43:37.230]  Good friend.
[43:38.750 --> 43:39.890]  Stations, this is the network.
[43:40.570 --> 43:44.450]  The headline is, Washington negotiations to end the coal strike.
[43:44.590 --> 43:46.790]  Scheduled to resume one hour from now.
[43:47.190 --> 43:48.350]  And the anchor is young.
[43:53.250 --> 43:53.570]  Chicago.
[43:57.560 --> 43:58.220]  Chicago.
[43:58.280 --> 43:58.940]  Chicago.
[43:59.340 --> 43:59.920]  Charlie.
[44:01.580 --> 44:02.040]  Sounds good.
[44:06.470 --> 44:07.310]  The network there too?
[44:08.010 --> 44:08.810]  Yeah, that was here.
[44:09.150 --> 44:11.130]  Yeah, this is an advisory from Los Angeles.
[44:11.470 --> 44:22.550]  Preliminary results on a post-mortem on Bubbles, the hippo that died last night, indicate apparently that she was at least five months pregnant.
[44:23.650 --> 44:24.590]  Oh no.
[44:25.790 --> 44:28.070]  For those of you who are following the bubble story.
[44:28.290 --> 44:33.910]  We'll have an update on this within the hour, but I just wanted to get the information out to you before the rest of the wires broke the story.
[44:34.130 --> 44:34.690]  I love it.
[44:34.750 --> 44:36.970]  What's the gestation period for a hippopotamus?
[44:37.190 --> 44:37.830]  I don't know.
[44:38.210 --> 44:39.470]  Haven't had a chance to look it up yet.
[44:39.730 --> 44:40.110]  Okay.
[44:40.110 --> 44:46.550]  But anyway, according to park officials, she appeared to be about five months pregnant.
[44:48.110 --> 44:49.710]  Was it a boy or a girl?
[44:50.050 --> 44:50.750]  We don't know.
[44:51.290 --> 44:51.570]  Okay.
[44:52.090 --> 44:59.070]  Anyway, we'll have further information for you within the hour on that story and some tape for you.
[44:59.070 --> 44:59.970]  Thank you.
[45:00.090 --> 45:00.990]  I have your new advisory from LA.
[45:05.160 --> 45:06.060]  That's maybe I see it.
[45:13.760 --> 45:15.660]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[45:15.800 --> 45:16.540]  I dialed in correctly.
[45:18.220 --> 45:18.720]  Keep it healthy.
[45:19.200 --> 45:19.400]  Keep it healthy.
[45:19.420 --> 45:19.800]  Last set.
[45:19.980 --> 45:21.520]  And the GOP.
[45:21.720 --> 45:21.960]  You are?
[45:22.380 --> 45:22.840]  St. Louis.
[45:23.940 --> 45:25.580]  The station's Los Angeles calling.
[45:25.760 --> 45:30.220]  We have a wrap and a wild track we'd like to offer you in connection with the death of Bubbles the Hippo.
[45:30.580 --> 45:31.420]  All right.
[45:32.500 --> 45:34.840]  The wrap is by reporter Diane Cummings.
[45:34.960 --> 45:36.720]  It runs one minute eight seconds in length.
[45:36.880 --> 45:39.520]  The wild track running 42 seconds in length.
[45:39.660 --> 45:40.820]  The out cue that happened.
[45:41.380 --> 45:46.100]  The voice is that of Joe Shetter, S-C-H-E-T-T-E-R.
[45:46.440 --> 45:49.120]  She is spokeswoman for Lion Country Safari.
[45:49.760 --> 45:52.460]  We'll read billboard and feed both pieces to you in 30 seconds.
[45:54.620 --> 45:56.280]  The unfortunate thing that happened.
[46:00.840 --> 46:03.140]  Okay, station, that concludes the feed from L.A.
[46:03.300 --> 46:04.770]  Let's have a moment of silence.
[46:09.460 --> 46:10.320]  Yes, indeed.
[46:10.320 --> 46:12.980]  Let's have a moment of silence for Bubbles the Hippo.
[46:13.240 --> 46:17.040]  And a recording from 43 years ago, 1978.
[46:17.580 --> 46:26.160]  That was some internal communications that has somehow fell into our hands a bunch of years ago.
[46:26.400 --> 46:27.900]  It doesn't seem to be anywhere else.
[46:27.900 --> 46:30.720]  Fascinating look at a network known as PLNX.
[46:30.760 --> 46:32.260]  I heard somebody describe it as PLNX.
[46:32.740 --> 46:33.280]  PLNX.
[46:33.440 --> 46:34.860]  Private Line News Exchange.
[46:35.140 --> 46:39.240]  That the CBS radio network used to communicate amongst their radio stations.
[46:39.680 --> 46:40.840]  What did you guys think of that?
[46:41.060 --> 46:42.040]  Riveting stuff, huh?
[46:43.120 --> 46:44.200]  That was amazing.
[46:45.600 --> 46:53.580]  I hope some CBS engineer or news staff from the past was able to hear that and just bring back a whole ton of memories.
[46:53.780 --> 46:54.780]  That's radio history.
[46:54.900 --> 46:56.400]  You don't get any more historical than that.
[46:57.500 --> 47:05.860]  I mean, it told a really, you know, interesting story that just got, you know, sadder with every twist and turn as well.
[47:07.240 --> 47:08.700]  And Bubbles was pregnant.
[47:08.860 --> 47:09.840]  Bubbles was pregnant.
[47:10.040 --> 47:10.560]  My God.
[47:10.560 --> 47:11.400]  That just...
[47:11.400 --> 47:15.000]  That obviously was the very sad twist at the end there.
[47:15.380 --> 47:21.380]  And for our listeners out there wondering what the gestation period of the hippopotamus is, it's eight months.
[47:21.380 --> 47:25.620]  You see, back then, you couldn't just hop online and look it up, like you undoubtedly just did.
[47:26.520 --> 47:28.160]  Who says I looked it up?
[47:28.260 --> 47:29.780]  I mean, maybe I just knew that.
[47:29.860 --> 47:30.580]  Maybe you knew that.
[47:30.660 --> 47:31.860]  That is entirely possible.
[47:32.720 --> 47:33.420]  I just...
[47:33.420 --> 47:37.860]  I found the relationship between all the different stations to be fascinating.
[47:38.080 --> 47:39.680]  For some reason, Washington, D.C.
[47:39.680 --> 47:40.920]  always picked up with the call letters.
[47:41.020 --> 47:41.800]  They always said T.O.P.
[47:41.860 --> 47:42.720]  Washington, WTOP.
[47:43.520 --> 47:45.660]  But everybody else would give the name of the city.
[47:46.020 --> 47:47.840]  And the ring was interesting, too.
[47:47.840 --> 47:51.200]  I'd like to know more about that particular communication system they used.
[47:51.580 --> 47:55.120]  This is the kind of thing that a group like Negative Lamb would love.
[47:55.480 --> 47:56.580]  Maybe they gave it to me.
[47:56.780 --> 47:57.560]  I don't know.
[47:57.860 --> 47:59.260]  I don't know where this came from.
[47:59.260 --> 48:00.300]  If anyone has a source.
[48:00.300 --> 48:01.820]  I couldn't find it anywhere online.
[48:02.020 --> 48:03.700]  So now it's out there.
[48:05.820 --> 48:06.840]  Poor old Bubbles.
[48:07.160 --> 48:08.000]  I'm just like...
[48:08.000 --> 48:10.020]  She was the Harambe of her time, obviously.
[48:10.320 --> 48:12.700]  And my jimmies are well and truly wrestled.
[48:13.040 --> 48:16.620]  So I found two interesting things about this.
[48:16.620 --> 48:23.300]  The first is that Lion Country Safari donated Bubbles' body to the Los Angeles Natural History Museum.
[48:23.440 --> 48:23.760]  Oh, boy.
[48:24.640 --> 48:25.980]  She's not on display, though.
[48:26.060 --> 48:26.820]  She's in a warehouse.
[48:27.140 --> 48:28.880]  Her bones are in boxes in a warehouse.
[48:29.120 --> 48:34.200]  So, Alex, if you thought the pregnant part was a sad coda, she's, you know, in boxes in a warehouse.
[48:34.440 --> 48:34.560]  Okay.
[48:34.660 --> 48:35.420]  So that's thing number one.
[48:35.420 --> 48:46.060]  But thing number two is it was reminding me almost of, you know, a long time ago, I used to have regular conference calls with colleagues from all over the country.
[48:46.060 --> 48:51.840]  And even now, when you're on a Zoom with people on a regular basis, you're dropping in, you're dropping out, people are discussing it.
[48:52.020 --> 48:59.940]  And I was getting that sense of, you know, the camaraderie that you can have on this kind of call was just so much fun.
[49:00.040 --> 49:06.660]  And what, you know, what the colleagues in the network and how that sense of working together, even when working apart.
[49:06.660 --> 49:08.380]  And I liked how they were teasing each other.
[49:08.520 --> 49:08.880]  It was great.
[49:09.120 --> 49:09.300]  Yes.
[49:10.860 --> 49:13.100]  And, yeah, they all would know each other.
[49:13.340 --> 49:16.420]  I'm just thinking of the technology, how the technology was so different then.
[49:16.580 --> 49:21.060]  Like, the actual landline was the thing that tied everybody together.
[49:21.400 --> 49:22.760]  And that's where you got your updates.
[49:22.780 --> 49:25.300]  And that's how the news was fed across.
[49:25.400 --> 49:25.980]  There was no internet.
[49:26.140 --> 49:31.520]  There was no way people could go out and access something online.
[49:31.520 --> 49:32.580]  They could buy a newspaper.
[49:32.580 --> 49:33.500]  They could watch television.
[49:33.500 --> 49:34.340]  They could listen to the radio.
[49:34.400 --> 49:34.840]  That was it.
[49:35.980 --> 49:39.380]  So it carried tremendous importance, what those people were doing.
[49:39.580 --> 49:41.960]  Yeah, it seemed a bit lighthearted at the time.
[49:42.580 --> 49:44.800]  But that develops in working relationships.
[49:46.020 --> 49:46.660]  Yes, Rob?
[49:47.980 --> 50:00.000]  There's also that sense that, yeah, along with the easy camaraderie and stuff, it's interesting to see how they propagated things like the recording of a news brief like that throughout their stations in the analog era.
[50:00.000 --> 50:02.420]  It amounted basically to, okay, everyone hit record.
[50:02.420 --> 50:04.000]  I'm going to play the thing.
[50:04.100 --> 50:05.820]  Or in this case, just say it live.
[50:06.500 --> 50:15.260]  You know, we have producers nowadays here at WBAI who have been uploading their show just as a digital audio file so the engineer back at the station can press play.
[50:16.000 --> 50:20.860]  And, you know, the ways we do things, you know, in some ways it's very like how they did it back then.
[50:20.920 --> 50:22.460]  In some ways, we're doing a lot better.
[50:22.640 --> 50:23.280]  It's interesting.
[50:23.860 --> 50:24.300]  Absolutely.
[50:24.720 --> 50:27.000]  You're listening to Off the Hook here on WBAI.
[50:27.000 --> 50:29.540]  We're going to be going to overtime at 8 o'clock.
[50:30.020 --> 50:37.100]  You can reach that by going to 2600.com, looking at the link up on top of the page, or simply going to our YouTube channel.
[50:37.100 --> 50:38.740]  It's called Channel 2600.
[50:39.140 --> 50:44.080]  And we'll be able to take phone calls on that particular means of communication.
[50:44.080 --> 50:49.540]  The phone number is 802-321-HACK, 802-321-4225.
[50:49.940 --> 50:58.840]  But before we leave the traditional airwaves, I'd like to touch upon one other story which is a little bit disturbing and kind of scary and also fascinating.
[50:59.080 --> 51:08.180]  It turns out Domino's Pizza and Neuro, which is a Silicon Valley startup, have announced they're going to be launching a robotic pizza delivery service in Houston.
[51:09.260 --> 51:13.840]  Yeah, in fact, it might already be in service, if any of our Houston listeners could tell us about this.
[51:14.880 --> 51:18.700]  Small, low-speed vehicles be carrying packages instead of people.
[51:21.280 --> 51:24.260]  And yes, this Neuro company has won U.S.
[51:24.380 --> 51:26.840]  clearance to start doing this kind of thing.
[51:26.920 --> 51:29.220]  They actually got the contract last year.
[51:29.480 --> 51:38.100]  Now, the delivery service will begin at a Domino's outlet in Houston before expanding to serve customers in many other locations as part of a long-term partner.
[51:40.300 --> 51:48.860]  The Neuro said Domino's had said in 2019 they expected to launch robot pizza delivery late that year, 2019.
[51:49.920 --> 51:54.620]  But they've taken a measured approach to prioritize a smooth and safe deployment.
[51:54.840 --> 51:57.860]  Now, Neuro was founded by two former Google engineers in 2016.
[51:59.180 --> 52:04.600]  So, I don't know, soon we're going to be seeing robotic vehicles delivering pizzas on the street.
[52:04.600 --> 52:07.240]  I just wonder how that's going to go.
[52:07.340 --> 52:10.660]  Low-speed vehicles for now, and who knows how high-speed...
[52:10.660 --> 52:12.980]  I mean, Domino's the whole thing is get it there in a half hour.
[52:13.340 --> 52:17.300]  So, I don't think low-speed is something they're going to want to hang on to for very long.
[52:19.740 --> 52:20.360]  I don't know.
[52:20.500 --> 52:26.160]  I'd be interested in if you see a pizza robot pass you on the sidewalk and what kind of measures can be taken.
[52:26.520 --> 52:28.840]  Maybe carry around an EMP for, you know, free pizza.
[52:29.020 --> 52:29.480]  I don't know.
[52:30.220 --> 52:36.420]  Well, of course, I like to find out ways of making mischief with these kinds of devices.
[52:36.420 --> 52:38.860]  What happens if a whole line of people stand in front of one of them?
[52:39.640 --> 52:41.400]  You get your pizza free, that's what happens.
[52:43.040 --> 52:43.780]  Technology's changing.
[52:43.900 --> 52:44.420]  Always is.
[52:44.580 --> 52:45.940]  And we'll be here to follow it.
[52:46.400 --> 52:49.540]  OTH at 2600.com is our email address.
[52:49.740 --> 52:52.880]  Again, overtime begins at 8 o'clock on our YouTube channel.
[52:53.620 --> 52:55.760]  We will see you here on WBAI next week.
[52:55.900 --> 52:58.540]  Keep listening to 99.5 FM and donate.
[52:59.160 --> 53:00.540]  Donate as much as you can.
[53:01.220 --> 53:05.220]  212-209-2950 or give to WBAI.org.
[53:05.320 --> 53:05.840]  See you next week.
[53:16.460 --> 53:19.220]  See you next week.
[53:19.240 --> 53:22.780]  See you next week.
[53:59.190 --> 54:02.250]  We'll see you next week.
[54:02.270 --> 54:09.210]  We'll see you next week.
[54:15.750 --> 54:17.150]  Bye.
[54:29.830 --> 54:31.230]  Bye.
[55:08.110 --> 55:11.570]  We'll see you next week.
[55:11.650 --> 55:12.430]  Bye.
[55:12.450 --> 55:12.510]  Bye.
[55:13.530 --> 55:13.830]  Bye.
[56:39.910 --> 56:43.930]  Hi, this is Hannah from WBAI's premiums department.
[56:44.270 --> 56:54.830]  As you may know, WBAI now has a new phone number to call to make donations or to pledge for premiums at 212-209-2950.
[56:55.470 --> 57:00.830]  Thank you for being a WBAI member and for making a contribution to keep the station afloat.
[57:01.030 --> 57:05.350]  But if you have a question about a premium, please do not call that number.
[57:05.670 --> 57:11.950]  All the call center can do is take down the info and send it to premiums at WBAI.org.
[57:12.670 --> 57:14.250]  And time on the line costs us money.
[57:15.130 --> 57:18.330]  Instead, please email us directly with your question or concern.
[57:18.330 --> 57:26.770]  The email is premiums at WBAI.org or call 212-209-2870.
[57:26.810 --> 57:29.530]  We promise to get back to you within a week's time.
[57:30.070 --> 57:41.530]  Again, please call 212-209-2870 if you have a question about a premium you ordered or email premiums at WBAI.org.
[57:41.530 --> 57:42.630]  We will take what the additional time will be bought in and again save you and 34-209-2950 if you have a transformation.
[00:00.960 --> 00:02.560]  And welcome to Overtime.
[00:02.780 --> 00:07.040]  We're here after, off the hook, to take phone calls and continue the discussion.
[00:08.120 --> 00:09.660]  Did we all make it?
[00:10.100 --> 00:11.340]  Skype people, are you there?
[00:13.180 --> 00:14.080]  We are here.
[00:14.580 --> 00:15.980]  And are we actually on YouTube?
[00:16.720 --> 00:18.060]  We are actually on YouTube.
[00:18.220 --> 00:18.520]  Amazing.
[00:18.780 --> 00:18.980]  Wow.
[00:19.160 --> 00:19.520]  Two for two.
[00:20.060 --> 00:20.600]  Okay, great.
[00:20.800 --> 00:25.940]  Our phone number is 802-321-HACK, 802-321-4225.
[00:26.680 --> 00:29.600]  Did anyone remember the toll-free number that we had from last week?
[00:29.600 --> 00:33.940]  Because I know it begins with 833 and it ends with 2600.
[00:34.800 --> 00:38.560]  It is 833-755-2600.
[00:38.700 --> 00:43.080]  Okay, 833-755-2600 is our phone number.
[00:44.980 --> 00:47.860]  And we have babies in the studio now, apparently.
[00:49.660 --> 00:51.820]  So here's a story I wanted to get to.
[00:51.940 --> 00:53.680]  We didn't have time during the show.
[00:53.680 --> 01:00.080]  So, you know, Trump is starting his own social media network.
[01:01.880 --> 01:03.940]  And you do well to avoid it.
[01:05.720 --> 01:06.160]  Yeah.
[01:08.100 --> 01:08.960]  Okay, you know that.
[01:09.120 --> 01:09.380]  Okay, good.
[01:09.420 --> 01:10.720]  I have to change all my plans now.
[01:10.920 --> 01:11.060]  Yeah.
[01:11.060 --> 01:27.860]  I mean, what we know so far is that this new development, according to, I'm sorry to say, Newsmax, they're the ones that got the story.
[01:27.860 --> 01:36.200]  The former campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, announced the development and said it's going to be launched in the next three to four months.
[01:36.200 --> 01:45.700]  It's going to be an interactive communication tool whereby the president will be able to post things to it and people will be able to repost and communicate directly with him.
[01:46.420 --> 01:48.840]  It's just a dream come true, isn't it?
[01:49.320 --> 01:57.500]  Now, Trump senior advisor Jason Miller told Fox News something similar on March 21st with a different timeline.
[01:58.060 --> 02:05.600]  He said, I do think we're going to see President Trump returning to social media in probably about two to three months with his own platform.
[02:05.680 --> 02:08.640]  And this is something that I think will be the hottest ticket in social media.
[02:08.820 --> 02:10.800]  It's going to completely redefine the game.
[02:10.920 --> 02:15.420]  And everybody is going to be waiting and watching to see what exactly President Trump does.
[02:16.080 --> 02:16.560]  Really?
[02:16.800 --> 02:17.420]  You think so?
[02:17.780 --> 02:19.040]  I think we're over it.
[02:19.120 --> 02:19.780]  I think we're done.
[02:20.100 --> 02:21.540]  I don't think we want any more.
[02:23.600 --> 02:25.680]  But, yeah, they're going to keep talking about this.
[02:25.880 --> 02:38.360]  BuzzFeed News on February 5th reported that then campaign manager Brad Parscale floated the idea of Trump taking an ownership stake in Parler during a meeting last year at the White House.
[02:38.520 --> 02:40.880]  That's according to a source familiar with the negotiations.
[02:41.340 --> 02:44.200]  Yeah, imagine that, taking an ownership stake in Parler.
[02:44.200 --> 03:04.560]  Now, basically what happened was that these talks began and there was a leaked document that showed Parler offered a 40% stake in the company during negotiations with the Trump organization in December.
[03:05.100 --> 03:17.120]  Upon completion of that deal, half of that stake would have been given immediately to the Trump organization, while the other half would have been dulled out in a 24-month period of the agreement.
[03:17.800 --> 03:31.380]  But things fell apart after the Capitol building incident on January 6th because Apple and Google removed Parler from their App Store and Amazon booted the platform from its web hosting service.
[03:31.380 --> 03:37.460]  So, Parler went dark, and an alternative platform presented itself in Gab.
[03:39.120 --> 03:48.580]  And as was the case with Parler, Jared Kushner's representatives requested equity in exchange for Trump's presence on Gab.
[03:48.920 --> 03:54.400]  That proposition was flatly rejected by CEO and founder Andrew Torba.
[03:55.620 --> 04:00.680]  Torba said the motive became transparent after a call with Kushner's aides.
[04:00.860 --> 04:08.420]  They said that they were in make-money mode and were focused on how they could financially benefit from Gab and change our free speech stance.
[04:08.780 --> 04:21.300]  All I wanted to do was give the president his voice back, but Kushner and others in the president's orbit expected me to hand the keys to the kingdom over to them and change the core mission of Gab.
[04:21.300 --> 04:23.360]  I wasn't going to let that happen.
[04:23.800 --> 04:36.680]  The latest platform in the sights of Trump's team appears to be an obscure social media network called, get ready for it, FreeSpace, which claims 20,000 combined downloads between the Apple and Google App Stores.
[04:37.220 --> 04:38.220]  20,000.
[04:38.740 --> 04:47.200]  Everything that has happened up to this point contradicts Lewandowski's recent comments and highlights a cutthroat approach by Trump's team.
[04:47.200 --> 04:53.080]  The platform that the president is building is not going to rely on Amazon or Amazon servers.
[04:53.840 --> 05:01.160]  He claimed Trump's platform is going to be completely built from scratch, from the ground up.
[05:01.160 --> 05:06.320]  But the focus so far seems to be not on building, but acquiring an existing product.
[05:07.140 --> 05:15.120]  According to Lewandowski, this platform is going to give Trump the opportunity to control not only the distribution of it, but also who participates in it.
[05:15.120 --> 05:26.900]  Therefore, it doesn't appear intended to be a forum for free expression, like Parler and Gab ostensibly were, but more like a direct marketing app, which in politics usually means fundraising.
[05:26.900 --> 05:38.520]  So the conclusion of this story, which came from a site called contra.substack.com, is so much of what Trump does tends to devolve into a distracting grift.
[05:38.640 --> 05:42.440]  And this proposed platform has a look of that before even launching.
[05:43.660 --> 05:44.620]  Yes, Kila.
[05:45.520 --> 05:58.580]  Well, I guess my question is, what is the involvement, and I'm wondering if there's a pivot in the fact that Mike Lindell apparently is also launching his own social media network next week.
[06:00.840 --> 06:11.760]  And I'm just wondering if Trump pivoted rather than directly compete with Mike Lindell, because they're buddies.
[06:13.040 --> 06:21.180]  And Mike Lindell announced yesterday, I believe yesterday, that his new social media platform, which is going to be called Frank.
[06:21.820 --> 06:22.540]  Really?
[06:23.180 --> 06:23.820]  Yeah.
[06:24.340 --> 06:25.680]  No swearing.
[06:26.920 --> 06:28.140]  No swearing at all?
[06:28.640 --> 06:29.680]  No swearing at all.
[06:29.780 --> 06:30.100]  Wow.
[06:30.340 --> 06:31.160]  How's that going to work?
[06:32.640 --> 06:36.620]  If I knew I would tell you, but apparently it'll get you bounced.
[06:38.440 --> 06:46.840]  Well, consider me pre-bounced then, because there's no way I can survive on any social media platform without letting loose with an occasional cuss word.
[06:47.520 --> 06:49.120]  Oh, and also no swearing, no porn.
[06:50.200 --> 06:53.080]  I can do without the porn, but swearing, that's a deal breaker.
[06:53.440 --> 06:54.080]  Yes, Rob.
[06:54.920 --> 07:06.460]  I mean, the only precedent for this sort of thing I can really think of is when you're based an entire, what's ostensibly a social network around a cult of personality around one famous person.
[07:07.040 --> 07:18.920]  Back in the MySpace era, David Hasselhoff, famous actor, singer, and driver of a cool car, started his own social network, which was called Hoffspace, to compete with MySpace.
[07:18.920 --> 07:22.080]  And all over the site were pictures of him.
[07:22.200 --> 07:26.620]  And I actually had one for a while, because I thought it was hilarious, but it didn't last very long.
[07:26.940 --> 07:34.240]  And I think all the social bonds that were made on that site between fans of David Hasselhoff had to be continued elsewhere.
[07:35.820 --> 07:36.600]  Yes, go ahead, Alex.
[07:36.900 --> 07:46.500]  First, let me just give out the phone number one more time, 802-321-4225 is our phone number, or 833-755-2600 is our toll-free version.
[07:46.500 --> 07:49.020]  If you've got voicemail, call back.
[07:49.180 --> 07:49.520]  Don't worry.
[07:49.940 --> 07:51.140]  You'll get through.
[07:51.320 --> 07:52.080]  Just keep trying.
[07:52.260 --> 07:52.760]  Go ahead, Alex.
[07:53.920 --> 08:10.660]  Well, recall the not-too-distant past when Trump was rallying against the immunities that Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act provided to social media, allowing them to censor whomever they wanted to censor without any repercussions.
[08:11.580 --> 08:21.280]  If Trump puts together his own social network, I can't wait to see how quickly his tune will change on Section 230 CDA immunity.
[08:21.280 --> 08:35.760]  You know, that's going to be really, really fun to see how fast his orange head whips around and begins praising Section 230 because it will then limit his liability or whatever corporate entity's liability this is placed in.
[08:35.760 --> 08:43.320]  But, I mean, this whole thing, you know, aside from that, this whole thing just seems symbolic from the outset.
[08:43.900 --> 09:03.020]  It sounds to me like it's going to be some horrendous echo chamber of racism and tolerance and extremism, you know, akin to, you know, what 8chan and these Chan image boards had devolved into during, you know, the height of the QAnon phase.
[09:03.020 --> 09:04.600]  Why doesn't he just try to take over 8chan?
[09:04.740 --> 09:05.580]  Maybe that would be better.
[09:07.080 --> 09:08.300]  Sure, absolutely, right?
[09:08.440 --> 09:11.720]  And it's become 8kun or whatever the hell it is now.
[09:12.940 --> 09:17.340]  But speaking of names, I mean, does anybody know what he's planning on naming this thing?
[09:17.760 --> 09:19.140]  Should we come up with some names?
[09:19.220 --> 09:20.180]  You want to help?
[09:21.100 --> 09:24.060]  Well, yeah, I could be a help and a hindrance.
[09:24.300 --> 09:28.400]  I'm sure we could come up with some wonderful names for Trump's social network.
[09:30.180 --> 09:31.160]  Gosh, yeah.
[09:32.000 --> 09:35.440]  I hadn't thought I'd have to come up with something for him.
[09:37.780 --> 09:40.140]  Rob has the quickest wit of anybody else.
[09:40.140 --> 09:40.620]  Yeah, he does.
[09:40.780 --> 09:41.600]  And so do our listeners.
[09:42.000 --> 09:46.180]  So please call if you have a suggestion for what to name Trump's new social media outlet.
[09:47.060 --> 09:48.080]  I'd love to hear it.
[09:48.940 --> 09:50.500]  But I'm coming up empty right now.
[09:51.120 --> 09:52.840]  Yeah, he's thinking of a pun.
[09:53.680 --> 10:00.580]  No, I just... I'm conflicted because I want to come up with some real zingers, but I don't want to give any ideas away for free to that guy.
[10:02.320 --> 10:04.320]  So I say make him work for it.
[10:04.420 --> 10:10.640]  But yeah, I would be interested in what our listeners have to suggest for the name of...
[10:10.640 --> 10:17.300]  But I mean, normally I would also say that this has the potential to lean toward things we can't say on the radio, but we're not actually on the air right now.
[10:17.300 --> 10:19.460]  So throw in with anything.
[10:19.740 --> 10:20.580]  Give us a call.
[10:21.060 --> 10:24.340]  The name is something that actually is a cuss word, you know, and...
[10:24.340 --> 10:29.500]  But he doesn't know that it's a cuss word because it's in a different language or different part of the world or something like that.
[10:30.100 --> 10:33.340]  Something that means... something that he doesn't think it means.
[10:33.440 --> 10:35.000]  That's the best name, I think.
[10:35.700 --> 10:36.340]  Yes, Alex?
[10:36.880 --> 10:44.640]  Well, here's another issue that I think, you know, should arise should Trump try to start his own social network, right?
[10:44.640 --> 10:50.980]  Which is, think about what happened to Parler in the immediate aftermath of the January 6th insurrection.
[10:51.240 --> 10:55.200]  They found themselves kicked off of AWS, Amazon Web Services.
[10:55.340 --> 10:57.740]  They found themselves looking for new hosts.
[10:57.920 --> 11:10.820]  They wound up going with some kind of strange, shoddy, weird host that was located in Russia, also had operations in Scotland and the Netherlands, but was primarily a Russian hosting company.
[11:10.820 --> 11:22.580]  Who's going to be willing to do business with Trump and his new social media network, given that he is a president that has been kicked off all the other social media platforms?
[11:22.580 --> 11:39.340]  He has inspired the January 6th insurrection, incited hundreds of persons to violence, thousands of people to violence, caused the death of several individuals on that day, and has been twice impeached.
[11:40.080 --> 11:45.760]  Who should... who's going to be willing to contract with this person to host this crazy platform?
[11:45.980 --> 11:49.280]  Need I remind you how many tens of millions of people voted for him?
[11:49.500 --> 11:52.960]  There will be some... somebody out there will jump into it, believe me.
[11:53.160 --> 11:53.980]  We have a phone call.
[11:54.140 --> 11:54.480]  Go ahead.
[11:54.760 --> 11:55.300]  You're on the air.
[11:55.460 --> 11:56.240]  Hi, how you doing?
[11:56.240 --> 12:02.470]  Getting back... I hate to digress, but you asked for some comments about radio in the 70s.
[12:03.260 --> 12:03.640]  Oh, yes.
[12:03.640 --> 12:07.340]  IBS news call and things like that on the over-the-air program.
[12:07.700 --> 12:14.040]  Now, in the 1970s, that must have been a news call just for the O&O affiliates.
[12:14.260 --> 12:14.820]  I believe so.
[12:15.040 --> 12:18.480]  You noticed there's Philadelphia, Toronto, LA, etc.
[12:18.920 --> 12:22.740]  Every station on the network was not on that circuit.
[12:23.000 --> 12:23.120]  Right.
[12:23.240 --> 12:26.720]  O&O, by the way, means owned and operated, for our listeners who don't know that terminology.
[12:27.380 --> 12:27.860]  Okay.
[12:28.180 --> 12:39.640]  And the... I did hear... I listened carefully, and I did hear bursts of 2600, and the line sounded like it went ka-ching, ka-ching a couple times.
[12:39.640 --> 12:59.120]  And also, the ringing, it almost strikes me as not so much as a ring, but some sort of signaling, either 300 baud or 110 audio frequency shift keying, almost like teletype, old-school radio teletype, and something like that.
[12:59.120 --> 13:11.840]  So maybe that was a loop through the major O&Os, and the teletype could bring up... or that pulsing could bring up different stations on the network.
[13:12.200 --> 13:12.800]  Yeah.
[13:12.980 --> 13:14.140]  You know, it's interesting, too.
[13:14.160 --> 13:21.500]  When the guy from New York was complaining about the sound quality, in the middle of him talking, that ring went over him.
[13:21.500 --> 13:23.340]  So, yeah, I agree.
[13:23.460 --> 13:24.820]  That ring is weird.
[13:24.960 --> 13:27.060]  It sounded like data a little bit.
[13:27.240 --> 13:32.200]  Maybe it was able to override conversations when something important was coming in.
[13:32.360 --> 13:47.640]  Yeah, because the normal network, if you were, let's say, a typical CBS affiliate, and this goes for the major networks of that time as well, Mutual, NBC, and ABC stations would...
[13:47.640 --> 14:03.160]  The network would broadcast things called news calls, which would be news reports, actuality feeds for the different affiliates, and the guy would come on offline and say, attention stations, here's a news feed for KUDC Los Angeles.
[14:03.900 --> 14:11.660]  The report is Joe Smith talking about the budget, and the out cue is, it stinks, coming in 30 seconds.
[14:11.920 --> 14:13.000]  You know, stuff like that.
[14:13.000 --> 14:15.100]  Yeah, and that's exactly what we heard.
[14:15.240 --> 14:24.420]  The actual pieces were edited out, but we did hear those out cues, and all the stations would accept it for their local broadcast.
[14:25.180 --> 14:25.800]  I'm glad that...
[14:25.800 --> 14:26.400]  And also...
[14:26.400 --> 14:27.000]  Oh, sorry.
[14:27.160 --> 14:35.780]  I'm glad you appreciate this, because that's exactly what we wanted to do, is play something like this over the radio, and hope that people were able to hear it, and maybe even remember some of it.
[14:35.780 --> 14:44.460]  Yeah, I'm kind of a communications historian and a general electronic nerd, so to speak, so I'll fit right in.
[14:44.720 --> 14:45.000]  Yes.
[14:45.120 --> 15:00.200]  As far as the networks are concerned, interestingly enough, if you want to go into history, there's a couple of things available out there on the internet, but you've got to look for them.
[15:00.200 --> 15:18.280]  Some raw feeds going back to the 1940s, when HF shortwave was used to feed overseas reports, since cables did not exist to pass the human voice across the seas until 1956.
[15:18.280 --> 15:29.180]  So the majority of all of overseas telephone calls and reporters getting their traffic in from overseas points were done on shortwave.
[15:29.180 --> 15:47.640]  And put it this way, there was virtually almost no security, and the stuff there was, any person who knew a little bit about radio could have probably decoded it, because if they did security at all, they used various versions of speech inversion.
[15:48.260 --> 15:48.840]  Mm-hmm.
[15:49.000 --> 15:50.060]  Yes, that's true.
[15:50.940 --> 15:58.040]  Myself, making overseas phone calls back in the 70s, I would be able to tell, okay, we're using a shortwave connection now.
[15:58.160 --> 15:59.820]  It just, it sounded...
[15:59.820 --> 16:00.500]  Okay.
[16:00.780 --> 16:02.400]  And you're apparently a ham, too.
[16:02.480 --> 16:04.900]  I'm going to pass that weird bit along to you guys.
[16:05.100 --> 16:05.340]  Uh-huh.
[16:05.460 --> 16:07.780]  What exactly was said just now?
[16:09.380 --> 16:10.660]  Uh, let's do that again.
[16:10.840 --> 16:12.760]  The phone dropped out a bit.
[16:12.900 --> 16:15.260]  Well, we heard Morse code, so what was just said?
[16:15.260 --> 16:22.640]  Oh, that was, uh, that was just, uh, uh, a scanner frequency, uh, a GMRS frequency identifying a repeater.
[16:23.240 --> 16:23.580]  I see.
[16:23.680 --> 16:23.860]  Okay.
[16:24.500 --> 16:26.160]  Uh, I thought we were sending a secret message.
[16:26.740 --> 16:27.060]  Um...
[16:27.060 --> 16:27.740]  No, no, no.
[16:27.840 --> 16:29.920]  The secret message would have been...
[16:32.900 --> 16:34.420]  Okay, may I ask where you're calling from?
[16:34.600 --> 16:34.960]  Secret message.
[16:35.280 --> 16:36.580]  What part of the world are you calling from?
[16:37.300 --> 16:39.140]  Uh, I'm in the metro area.
[16:39.300 --> 16:40.040]  I'm in northern Jersey.
[16:40.360 --> 16:40.660]  Great.
[16:40.840 --> 16:41.060]  Okay.
[16:41.320 --> 16:42.380]  Well, I'm glad you enjoyed that.
[16:42.400 --> 16:43.620]  I'm glad you appreciated it.
[16:43.620 --> 16:46.020]  And, uh, I hope we find more things like that.
[16:46.020 --> 16:48.040]  If you find things like that, please let us know.
[16:48.920 --> 16:49.320]  Okay.
[16:49.440 --> 16:49.860]  Good enough.
[16:50.200 --> 16:50.500]  All right.
[16:50.620 --> 16:51.220]  Thanks for your call.
[16:51.640 --> 16:52.040]  Okay.
[16:52.240 --> 16:52.520]  Bye-bye.
[16:52.660 --> 16:52.780]  Bye.
[16:54.060 --> 16:57.460]  Well, you know, I have to say mission accomplished because that is what I wanted.
[16:57.540 --> 17:03.600]  I wanted somebody to hear that and, and to, to really get it and to, um, analyze it.
[17:03.600 --> 17:09.320]  And I hope other people were listening to, you know, and, and, and heard that, that strange recording from 1978.
[17:10.020 --> 17:11.480]  I know there's others out there too.
[17:14.640 --> 17:15.020]  Absolutely.
[17:15.060 --> 17:24.560]  And if you're out there and, uh, you want to give us a call at, uh, 802-321-HACK or toll-free at 833-755-2600, uh, we would love to hear from you.
[17:25.560 --> 17:26.000]  Okay.
[17:26.000 --> 17:29.740]  Let's go back to talking about Trump then, his, uh, social, social media.
[17:29.820 --> 17:30.100]  Okay.
[17:30.980 --> 17:41.440]  I had an idea for a name, not so much for a social media network, but if it goes well and he rolls out a dating site, you ready?
[17:41.780 --> 17:44.000]  Uh, no, I'm not, but go ahead anyway.
[17:45.740 --> 17:46.620]  Orange crush.
[17:48.120 --> 17:49.420]  I think I'm going to be sick.
[17:50.300 --> 17:52.640]  Let's, uh, let's, uh, take a phone call.
[17:52.940 --> 17:53.740]  Uh, good evening.
[17:53.740 --> 17:55.980]  You're on the air, so to speak.
[17:56.800 --> 17:57.080]  Hello.
[17:57.520 --> 17:57.760]  Hi.
[17:57.800 --> 17:58.360]  How are you?
[17:58.680 --> 17:59.620]  Uh, I'm good.
[17:59.980 --> 18:01.040]  Uh, who's this?
[18:02.760 --> 18:05.920]  This is Valentina Kuzmenko.
[18:06.540 --> 18:06.980]  Okay.
[18:07.860 --> 18:09.340]  And where are you calling from?
[18:10.980 --> 18:14.580]  I'm calling from Detroit.
[18:15.380 --> 18:15.840]  Detroit?
[18:16.100 --> 18:17.220]  I am from Russia.
[18:17.680 --> 18:18.020]  Okay.
[18:19.800 --> 18:25.180]  I am calling because I love this TV show, radio show.
[18:26.080 --> 18:27.380]  That's good to hear.
[18:27.380 --> 18:42.500]  Uh, I don't think that was English.
[18:42.980 --> 18:42.980]  Uh,
[18:50.000 --> 18:56.760]  I don't think that was English.
[18:56.760 --> 18:57.700]  Okay.
[19:09.420 --> 19:10.320]  Okay.
[19:20.160 --> 19:21.560]  Okay.
[19:22.780 --> 19:23.720]  Okay.
[19:24.280 --> 19:24.920]  Okay.
[19:24.920 --> 19:25.360]  Yeah.
[19:26.080 --> 19:26.600]  Yeah.
[19:26.860 --> 19:29.520]  Alex, are you attempting to speak Russian?
[19:30.760 --> 19:33.820]  Uh, well, yeah, I, I, I can speak a little bit.
[19:33.880 --> 19:34.820]  So what does she say?
[19:34.960 --> 19:36.740]  That's what I, that's what I said.
[19:37.100 --> 19:44.700]  Um, she had invited you over to Detroit for, uh, cupcakes and tea on the 12th of May.
[19:45.660 --> 19:46.660]  That's a strange thing.
[19:46.680 --> 19:52.060]  I would expect to be invited to Russia for, for vodka and something on the 12th of May, but whatever.
[19:52.560 --> 19:53.820]  Uh, is that really what she said?
[19:54.360 --> 19:55.380]  No, I made that up.
[19:55.480 --> 19:56.260]  You made that up.
[19:56.900 --> 19:57.260]  Wow.
[19:57.260 --> 19:58.720]  Very few things that she said.
[19:58.840 --> 19:58.940]  Yeah.
[19:59.440 --> 19:59.580]  Yeah.
[19:59.680 --> 20:03.320]  Made it up, but you know, would be, would be weird enough to have actually happened.
[20:03.520 --> 20:03.600]  Right.
[20:03.900 --> 20:10.620]  If someone can translate that and write it, write a transcript and send it to OTH at 2600.com.
[20:10.760 --> 20:11.260]  That would be great.
[20:11.420 --> 20:12.520]  That would be a public service.
[20:12.660 --> 20:14.140]  Uh, Google, maybe you could help with this.
[20:14.140 --> 20:19.640]  I know you listen, uh, and there must be a way for us to simply feed that into something and get it translated.
[20:20.320 --> 20:22.040]  That's, that's an app that should exist, right?
[20:22.200 --> 20:24.420]  You know, I've been thinking of a lot of apps that should exist.
[20:24.840 --> 20:25.580]  How about this?
[20:25.960 --> 20:36.840]  Um, Kyle and I were talking about the other day, bird Shazam, you know, bird Shazam is you basically, you hold the phone up outside and it identifies all the birds that are making noise.
[20:37.520 --> 20:38.040]  Come on.
[20:38.100 --> 20:39.320]  That's a, that's a good app.
[20:39.920 --> 20:40.700]  Yeah, absolutely.
[20:40.700 --> 20:40.840]  Absolutely.
[20:41.080 --> 20:44.420]  Or, or even, you know, taking a picture of the bird and identifying it.
[20:44.520 --> 20:45.320]  That would be helpful too.
[20:45.500 --> 20:46.440]  I don't want to take a picture.
[20:46.580 --> 20:56.280]  I want to, I want the, the, the, the sound of the bird to be identified because you hear all kinds of, and at night, what in God's name is that bug that I'm hearing making these trippy noises?
[20:56.480 --> 20:58.180]  You know, you want to know, you want to know how big it is.
[20:58.260 --> 20:59.040]  You want to know if it's a threat.
[20:59.460 --> 21:02.020]  And, uh, uh, bug Shazam would, would do that.
[21:02.880 --> 21:03.780]  We have another phone call.
[21:03.980 --> 21:04.280]  Good evening.
[21:04.400 --> 21:04.920]  You're on the air.
[21:04.980 --> 21:05.200]  Go ahead.
[21:07.380 --> 21:07.760]  Hello.
[21:07.900 --> 21:08.440]  Can I be heard?
[21:08.640 --> 21:09.440]  Yes, you can be heard.
[21:10.940 --> 21:11.320]  Awesome.
[21:11.600 --> 21:15.640]  So, uh, uh, this is an unsecure line, so I'm going to be brief.
[21:15.760 --> 21:15.920]  Okay.
[21:16.420 --> 21:18.580]  I have five names for you.
[21:18.820 --> 21:19.220]  All right.
[21:20.620 --> 21:21.200]  All right.
[21:21.480 --> 21:24.760]  So these are for Trump's, uh, uh, websites.
[21:25.740 --> 21:26.000]  Okay.
[21:26.760 --> 21:27.080]  Proceed.
[21:27.320 --> 21:30.500]  Alex, I know you're a, I know you're a website, um, squatter.
[21:30.760 --> 21:31.980]  So keep an eye out for these.
[21:32.100 --> 21:33.760]  You might want to add these to your search databases.
[21:34.600 --> 21:37.280]  Um, plenty of squish.
[21:37.960 --> 21:38.560]  Uh huh.
[21:40.620 --> 21:41.660]  White race book.
[21:43.280 --> 21:43.940]  All right.
[21:44.020 --> 21:44.200]  All right.
[21:44.200 --> 21:44.600]  Keep going.
[21:44.940 --> 21:45.700]  That's a good one.
[21:45.700 --> 21:46.500]  That's a good one.
[21:46.700 --> 21:47.440]  I like that.
[21:47.720 --> 21:48.700]  Well, I mean, yeah.
[21:48.880 --> 21:49.820]  As a pun, I like it.
[21:49.920 --> 21:52.700]  Not, not for the substantive content, of course, but...
[21:54.000 --> 21:54.400]  Yeah.
[21:54.580 --> 21:55.820]  My Pending Law Case.
[21:56.700 --> 21:58.120]  My Pending Law Case.
[21:58.240 --> 21:58.460]  Okay.
[21:58.640 --> 21:58.980]  All right.
[22:01.320 --> 22:02.040]  Shrive Journal.
[22:04.520 --> 22:05.040]  All right.
[22:05.040 --> 22:05.980]  Let's hope for a big finish.
[22:07.560 --> 22:12.720]  And, uh, this one, this last one is for, uh, all of his romantic interests.
[22:12.720 --> 22:17.540]  Um, this one's dedicated personally to the people who he finds attractive.
[22:17.540 --> 22:18.700]  It's called Kintrist.
[22:21.320 --> 22:21.760]  Okay.
[22:22.020 --> 22:22.920]  That's, that's not bad.
[22:23.040 --> 22:23.920]  That's even Colbert.
[22:24.540 --> 22:25.700]  Oh, Colbert worthy.
[22:26.140 --> 22:28.240]  That's what happens when they hang up and I don't turn the thing down.
[22:28.620 --> 22:28.980]  Okay.
[22:29.700 --> 22:30.140]  Wow.
[22:30.540 --> 22:33.840]  Um, Alex, I hope you've already registered all those domains and we can get to work.
[22:33.840 --> 22:33.860]  Okay.
[22:35.360 --> 22:41.460]  Um, the, the white race book, that was a, you know, very good political pun.
[22:41.740 --> 22:44.680]  I mean, that really hits right at the heart of Trumpism, doesn't it?
[22:44.840 --> 22:45.080]  Mm-hmm.
[22:45.220 --> 22:45.840]  Mm-hmm.
[22:46.200 --> 22:46.800]  Really good.
[22:46.920 --> 22:47.460]  That's good.
[22:47.640 --> 22:49.540]  I'm going to see if that's available right now.
[22:49.760 --> 22:50.000]  Let's see.
[22:50.400 --> 22:50.760]  All right.
[22:50.980 --> 22:52.480]  Live, uh, domain checking.
[22:52.740 --> 22:59.880]  Do you know what the, the billable hours for that kind of marketing, uh, pitch is?
[22:59.880 --> 23:03.680]  I mean, we just did so, so very much work for them.
[23:04.300 --> 23:04.860]  We did.
[23:04.900 --> 23:05.200]  Yeah.
[23:05.400 --> 23:06.500]  Our listener did.
[23:07.140 --> 23:08.680]  We should be billing them for something.
[23:09.040 --> 23:10.840]  I mean, that's priceless.
[23:11.000 --> 23:14.200]  I mean, there was some real, some real gems in there.
[23:14.280 --> 23:16.040]  We've worked harder than they'll ever work.
[23:16.040 --> 23:16.380]  I'm sure.
[23:16.680 --> 23:17.040]  Oh, definitely.
[23:17.080 --> 23:17.860]  We got another call.
[23:18.120 --> 23:18.660]  Oh, we do.
[23:18.780 --> 23:18.940]  Okay.
[23:19.420 --> 23:21.020]  Alex, was that, was that taken or not?
[23:21.460 --> 23:22.240]  It was not.
[23:22.360 --> 23:24.480]  White race book is available as of now.
[23:24.760 --> 23:26.180]  I imagine a few moments it won't be.
[23:26.360 --> 23:26.620]  Okay.
[23:27.320 --> 23:27.920]  And good evening.
[23:28.100 --> 23:28.760]  You're on the air.
[23:28.820 --> 23:29.080]  Go ahead.
[23:30.080 --> 23:30.560]  Hello.
[23:31.000 --> 23:31.220]  Hi.
[23:31.460 --> 23:36.400]  Let's know I am doing my neighbors a service and rebroadcasting your stream.
[23:36.740 --> 23:37.480]  Oh, nice.
[23:37.620 --> 23:38.660]  Locally in Idaho.
[23:39.220 --> 23:39.700]  Idaho.
[23:40.000 --> 23:40.160]  Wow.
[23:40.400 --> 23:41.000]  That's awesome.
[23:43.200 --> 23:44.980]  So what frequency did you pick?
[23:45.100 --> 23:45.180]  Yeah.
[23:45.460 --> 23:45.600]  Yeah.
[23:45.740 --> 23:46.260]  How is it?
[23:46.800 --> 23:47.440]  Go ahead.
[23:49.380 --> 23:49.860]  Hello?
[23:51.700 --> 23:52.640]  Are they still there?
[23:53.300 --> 23:54.240]  Are you still there?
[23:54.420 --> 23:54.560]  Idaho?
[23:55.860 --> 23:56.760]  I don't hear them.
[23:57.860 --> 23:58.700]  Um, okay.
[23:58.700 --> 24:02.200]  Well, um, you might be muted or you might've hung up.
[24:02.300 --> 24:06.040]  And if you've hung up, you can call back and let us know what frequency it's, it's on.
[24:06.780 --> 24:09.100]  Um, I think we got too excited.
[24:09.360 --> 24:11.160]  Yeah, we did, but that's good to know.
[24:11.160 --> 24:12.940]  We're being broadcast in, in, in Idaho.
[24:13.300 --> 24:14.780]  And our phone line apparently is open.
[24:14.980 --> 24:19.220]  802-321-4225-800-755-2600.
[24:19.340 --> 24:19.880]  I'm not 800.
[24:20.040 --> 24:24.460]  833-755-2600 is our, is our phone number.
[24:24.640 --> 24:27.560]  And you can, uh, I say on the air, you're not really on the air.
[24:27.560 --> 24:31.080]  Well, I guess maybe you are in Idaho if he's rebroadcasting the stream.
[24:31.460 --> 24:32.940]  Are we still connected maybe?
[24:34.080 --> 24:34.760]  Oh, yeah.
[24:34.980 --> 24:35.480]  Oh, there you are.
[24:35.480 --> 24:35.900]  You're back.
[24:36.800 --> 24:37.320]  I'm sorry.
[24:37.400 --> 24:37.960]  You got disconnected.
[24:37.960 --> 24:38.280]  Okay.
[24:38.360 --> 24:39.160]  Well, I'm glad you're back.
[24:39.160 --> 24:42.260]  Um, so what frequency are we being broadcast on?
[24:43.420 --> 24:45.180]  96.1 FM.
[24:45.760 --> 24:46.200]  Wow.
[24:46.580 --> 24:46.840]  Okay.
[24:46.940 --> 24:48.160]  Right there in the commercial band.
[24:49.180 --> 24:49.700]  Yep.
[24:49.840 --> 24:53.780]  Got me a low power Ramsey quote unquote professional.
[24:55.020 --> 24:57.820]  If I'm steering the transmitters, I figured why not?
[24:58.020 --> 25:03.740]  May as well be broadcast off the hook in the after show.
[25:04.140 --> 25:04.920]  Well, you know what?
[25:04.920 --> 25:08.900]  You're the only, uh, frequency that actually broadcast the overtime.
[25:08.900 --> 25:09.520]  Segment.
[25:09.800 --> 25:11.020]  Because we're not broadcasting.
[25:11.240 --> 25:11.740]  We're on the internet.
[25:12.080 --> 25:12.540]  First one.
[25:12.680 --> 25:13.600]  First one we know of.
[25:13.780 --> 25:13.840]  First one, yeah.
[25:15.100 --> 25:16.700]  And it's legal too?
[25:16.960 --> 25:17.920]  You're doing this legitimately?
[25:18.500 --> 25:19.540]  Well, low power, right?
[25:19.600 --> 25:19.860]  Wow.
[25:20.040 --> 25:23.140]  0.6 watt transmitter, so...
[25:23.140 --> 25:24.180]  It's under 100, right?
[25:24.480 --> 25:24.920]  Yeah.
[25:25.520 --> 25:25.840]  Mm-hmm.
[25:26.260 --> 25:26.700]  Brilliant.
[25:27.040 --> 25:27.720]  Way to go.
[25:28.180 --> 25:29.040]  That is something.
[25:29.280 --> 25:29.480]  Thanks.
[25:30.200 --> 25:30.820]  Mm-hmm.
[25:30.960 --> 25:35.900]  So, uh, what part of Idaho can we tell people to, uh, to listen?
[25:38.180 --> 25:38.860]  Southern Idaho.
[25:39.420 --> 25:40.040]  Southern Idaho?
[25:41.080 --> 25:41.420]  Yes.
[25:41.520 --> 25:41.740]  Thereabouts.
[25:42.180 --> 25:42.320]  Okay.
[25:42.480 --> 25:42.740]  All right.
[25:42.860 --> 25:46.880]  So, just wander around with your car and listen to 96.1 until you get us.
[25:47.060 --> 25:48.960]  But you have to hurry, because we won't be on that much longer.
[25:49.720 --> 25:51.480]  Anything else you want to share with us, caller?
[25:52.700 --> 25:53.180]  Hmm.
[25:53.520 --> 25:55.440]  It's going to be a thing from here on out.
[25:56.180 --> 25:56.300]  Okay.
[25:57.340 --> 25:59.740]  We broadcast every Wednesday evening show.
[26:00.100 --> 26:00.580]  Wow.
[26:00.680 --> 26:01.200]  That'd be awesome.
[26:01.440 --> 26:02.200]  We can...
[26:02.200 --> 26:03.840]  We'll help you publicize that.
[26:04.300 --> 26:08.740]  Just send us the details and we'll get it out there if you want them out there.
[26:09.360 --> 26:09.980]  Alex, go ahead.
[26:10.120 --> 26:10.560]  Fantastic.
[26:11.520 --> 26:12.860]  I have a question for the caller.
[26:13.940 --> 26:14.180]  Mm-hmm.
[26:14.180 --> 26:24.360]  Caller, I'm wondering, when you're broadcasting low-power FM, do you still have to abide by the ordinary FCC guidelines?
[26:25.320 --> 26:25.860]  Yes.
[26:25.860 --> 26:26.360]  And...
[26:26.360 --> 26:27.660]  So, you do...
[26:27.660 --> 26:27.900]  Yes.
[26:28.120 --> 26:37.980]  So, if you were to curse, or say one of those seven dirty words, bad words, um, could it possibly get you in any kind of hot water?
[26:39.720 --> 26:50.800]  I have previously broadcasted PLA radio with plenty of cursing there and not gotten in trouble, so I'm honestly not very worried.
[26:52.000 --> 26:53.980]  So, it's probably not so much of a big deal.
[26:55.060 --> 26:57.860]  So, look at risk, but hypothetically possible.
[26:58.260 --> 27:04.180]  You might be able to install some kind of a delay system, too, where you could just, you know, kill it when something happens.
[27:04.180 --> 27:05.440]  Because we can't control our callers.
[27:05.500 --> 27:06.580]  We don't have a delay system here.
[27:07.080 --> 27:07.480]  Uh...
[27:07.480 --> 27:10.680]  That's why we don't take phone calls over the air, but we take phone calls over the internet.
[27:11.940 --> 27:12.200]  Mm-hmm.
[27:12.780 --> 27:18.960]  Well, it does have a handy line knob for each line on the front there, so...
[27:18.960 --> 27:21.720]  If you hear something, you can just boop, boop, turn it down.
[27:22.720 --> 27:23.120]  Uh-huh.
[27:23.120 --> 27:23.180]  Wow.
[27:23.360 --> 27:24.280]  Well, thank you for doing that.
[27:24.300 --> 27:28.120]  That's a really nice public service, and very creative as well.
[27:29.820 --> 27:30.180]  Okay.
[27:30.380 --> 27:31.680]  I have a transmitter.
[27:31.860 --> 27:34.340]  I may as well use it to transmit something useful.
[27:34.340 --> 27:35.540]  I think Rob T.
[27:35.640 --> 27:36.360]  Firefly has a question.
[27:37.160 --> 27:38.160]  Uh, yes, indeed.
[27:38.420 --> 27:42.420]  And, uh, we saw you tweeting about this, too, and we totally appreciate that.
[27:42.560 --> 27:44.260]  And, uh, I do...
[27:44.260 --> 27:49.420]  I would like to point out, and I'm sure my pals at PLA also appreciate what you're doing.
[27:49.420 --> 27:57.680]  Um, but, you know, I, I would like to point out, uh, that we do get, uh, questions now and then from people who are like, uh, may we rebroadcast your, your content.
[27:57.940 --> 28:06.380]  And, you know, it's not, it's not our place to endorse or unendorse what other people are doing, but we generally are okay with people, uh, you know, putting our work out there.
[28:06.460 --> 28:11.060]  That's why we make this show and, uh, and the radio show for, for people to hear it.
[28:11.060 --> 28:20.380]  So, um, you know, while we can't take any responsibility and everyone's responsible for, uh, following up with their, what's, what's okay to do legally and practically in their own areas.
[28:20.660 --> 28:25.220]  Um, yeah, we, we think it's really cool and we totally appreciate, uh, your efforts.
[28:25.440 --> 28:25.800]  And thank you.
[28:25.920 --> 28:26.580]  Thank you very much.
[28:27.720 --> 28:28.320]  Thank you.
[28:29.320 --> 28:29.680]  All right.
[28:29.800 --> 28:30.300]  Stay in touch.
[28:31.660 --> 28:32.220]  Mm-hmm.
[28:32.500 --> 28:32.940]  Take care.
[28:33.380 --> 28:34.200]  Thanks for checking in.
[28:35.200 --> 28:37.660]  And, uh, that's, uh, we've had a call from Idaho.
[28:37.860 --> 28:38.620]  We've had a call from Detroit.
[28:38.820 --> 28:40.860]  We've had a call from, uh, somewhere in New Jersey.
[28:41.700 --> 28:45.780]  Um, maybe there's, uh, someone overseas who can call us as well.
[28:46.000 --> 28:48.640]  Our phone number, 802-321-4225.
[28:49.260 --> 28:56.240]  Uh, or domestically, if you want to, uh, uh, the, uh, toll free, uh, 833-755-2600.
[28:56.820 --> 29:03.020]  Uh, if phone calls even cost anything, I think most people, most people don't pay per phone call anymore.
[29:03.800 --> 29:06.040]  I know I don't, but then I haven't for a long time.
[29:07.240 --> 29:16.900]  Uh, yeah, it's now, like, more important than ever, really, uh, since there are so many other kind of pod stream shows.
[29:16.900 --> 29:21.660]  So we have a lot of fragmentation and things competing for people's attention.
[29:21.660 --> 29:29.400]  So any opportunity to get our show and some of our discussions further out there, whether it's on the internet or the, in the radio, it's, it's important.
[29:29.580 --> 29:30.960]  Uh, speaking of which, we have another call.
[29:30.960 --> 29:31.800]  Oh, wow.
[29:32.060 --> 29:32.280]  Okay.
[29:32.660 --> 29:35.520]  Um, let us take that phone call straight away.
[29:36.740 --> 29:37.680]  Do we, do we have a call?
[29:39.160 --> 29:39.520]  Okay.
[29:39.580 --> 29:40.320]  Well, let's see if we have a call.
[29:40.560 --> 29:41.280]  Is there somebody there?
[29:42.780 --> 29:44.000]  I think I hung up on them.
[29:44.080 --> 29:44.340]  Oh yeah.
[29:44.820 --> 29:45.160]  Okay.
[29:45.340 --> 29:48.280]  Uh, if you called and got hung up on, we apologize profusely.
[29:48.440 --> 29:48.960]  Please call back.
[29:49.080 --> 29:53.960]  802-321-4225 or 833-755-2600.
[29:54.060 --> 29:54.400]  I think I got, yeah.
[29:54.820 --> 29:56.320]  Or maybe we didn't hang up.
[29:56.720 --> 30:00.480]  I don't know, but anyone who wants to call, please call and do it soon.
[30:00.480 --> 30:02.720]  Because, uh, we won't be on too much longer.
[30:03.500 --> 30:05.440]  Um, yeah.
[30:06.240 --> 30:12.740]  I have another story that I wanted to get to as well, uh, about, um, Q-Link Wireless.
[30:12.900 --> 30:13.540]  You guys hear this story?
[30:13.840 --> 30:19.640]  Uh, they're a provider of low-cost mobile phone and data services to 2 million US-based customers.
[30:20.260 --> 30:27.320]  Uh, they have been, uh, making sensitive account data available to anyone who knows a valid phone number on the carrier's network.
[30:27.800 --> 30:28.880]  And that's all.
[30:29.060 --> 30:31.980]  That's all you need to have is a phone number.
[30:32.540 --> 30:33.000]  Yeah.
[30:33.200 --> 30:37.920]  And then you can find out if you, if you simply enter the phone number, uh, that they have this app.
[30:38.020 --> 30:39.340]  It's called my mobile account.
[30:39.580 --> 30:40.960]  It works on both iOS and Android.
[30:41.440 --> 30:44.500]  Uh, you will get the first and last name.
[30:44.500 --> 30:52.360]  You'll get, uh, home address, phone call history, both from and to, a text message history from and to.
[30:52.500 --> 30:53.280]  Think about that.
[30:53.680 --> 30:55.540]  Uh, phone carrier account number.
[30:55.760 --> 30:58.000]  That's, that's needed to, uh, switch phone companies.
[30:58.120 --> 31:05.300]  If you want to go from one company to another, you have all the info, email address, and last four digits of whatever card you use to pay your bill.
[31:06.420 --> 31:06.860]  Unbelievable.
[31:07.320 --> 31:10.760]  And this has been going on since at least December, possibly much earlier.
[31:11.160 --> 31:18.040]  Uh, they've been displaying this information for every customer account, whenever it's presented with a valid Q link, wireless phone number.
[31:18.120 --> 31:22.400]  So if you know somebody with a Q link account, that's all you have to do or had to do it.
[31:22.500 --> 31:34.420]  That is, uh, because obviously all the publicity that came from stories like this, uh, and a Reddit thread that started about this, well, they, they finally dealt with it, but this is something that, you know, we were lecturing about back in the eighties,
[31:34.700 --> 31:42.500]  you know, MCI used to do things like this where at least they required a zip code along with a phone number, but it wasn't very hard to get a zip code to somebody.
[31:42.780 --> 31:51.220]  If you knew their phone number and, uh, they had their friends and family too, where basically they list off everybody that was related to the person along with their phone numbers.
[31:51.780 --> 31:55.700]  But anyway, uh, Q link wireless learned a valuable lesson in the last week.
[31:56.520 --> 31:57.560]  Let's take a phone call.
[31:57.640 --> 31:57.940]  Good evening.
[31:58.080 --> 31:59.360]  You're on off the hook over time.
[32:00.420 --> 32:00.940]  Hi.
[32:01.540 --> 32:02.060]  Hi.
[32:02.140 --> 32:02.400]  How you doing?
[32:02.660 --> 32:02.980]  Hi.
[32:03.660 --> 32:09.680]  You asked us for ideas for, to name Trump's words.
[32:09.680 --> 32:09.920]  Yes.
[32:10.140 --> 32:11.440]  Do you have some names for us?
[32:11.480 --> 32:14.520]  I mean exactly what he thought they did.
[32:15.320 --> 32:21.520]  Uh, I've come up with one, not the best one, but nobody else has come up with one.
[32:21.780 --> 32:24.460]  So, uh, Bubbles Freedom Network.
[32:25.340 --> 32:28.420]  Well, you know, Bubbles doesn't really have anything to do with this.
[32:28.420 --> 32:29.700]  Bubbles is just a dead hippo.
[32:29.960 --> 32:32.840]  I mean, uh, why, why drag Bubbles into it?
[32:33.820 --> 32:43.600]  Bubbles was trying for freedom, lived in freedom for 19 days, eschewing her favorite food, alfalfa.
[32:43.600 --> 32:44.260]  Uh-huh.
[32:44.640 --> 32:47.260]  She must have been starving when she came out.
[32:49.180 --> 32:54.980]  Well, you know, I'll say that Bubbles knows a lot more, well, knew a lot more about, about freedom than, than Trump and his ilk ever could.
[32:55.280 --> 32:56.000]  That is true.
[32:56.000 --> 32:58.460]  Yeah, but he, he, he peddles freedom.
[32:58.980 --> 32:59.420]  Uh-huh.
[33:00.660 --> 33:00.820]  Sigh.
[33:01.200 --> 33:05.460]  But I, I didn't say that this was a wonderful, uh, idea.
[33:05.640 --> 33:09.340]  I think, orange crush, oh my, pretty dating site.
[33:10.040 --> 33:10.540]  Yeah.
[33:10.680 --> 33:10.900]  Yeah.
[33:10.900 --> 33:12.040]  We're still workshopping stuff.
[33:12.320 --> 33:14.200]  So, all ideas are welcome.
[33:14.680 --> 33:15.700]  This is, there's no...
[33:15.700 --> 33:17.280]  Bubbles are bubbles of freedom.
[33:18.040 --> 33:19.120]  But, yeah.
[33:19.520 --> 33:20.320]  No, you can work it.
[33:20.500 --> 33:22.980]  As I said, it's not the greatest idea.
[33:22.980 --> 33:25.140]  It's just, best I could come up with.
[33:25.360 --> 33:27.800]  Maybe there's a reason Bubbles was featured tonight.
[33:27.940 --> 33:29.740]  Maybe Bubbles has to play into this somehow.
[33:30.160 --> 33:31.720]  So, I'm open to...
[33:31.720 --> 33:34.000]  I tried looking up Bubbles on Wikipedia.
[33:34.360 --> 33:35.740]  It's not easy, is it?
[33:36.800 --> 33:47.500]  It redirected me to the, uh, African Safari Park where Bubbles lived, but the article had no mention of Bubbles whatsoever.
[33:47.980 --> 33:48.440]  It's incredible.
[33:48.580 --> 33:51.140]  They say things live forever on the internet, but they really don't.
[33:51.260 --> 33:51.880]  They really don't.
[33:51.880 --> 33:54.260]  That's why you have to play recordings over the radio.
[33:54.260 --> 33:55.480]  Then they live forever.
[33:57.860 --> 33:58.820]  Sad story.
[33:59.000 --> 33:59.920]  It was a sad story.
[34:00.480 --> 34:03.820]  1978, 40, 43 years later, it still resonates.
[34:03.820 --> 34:07.660]  I don't remember it, but, but I'm sure that I was...
[34:07.660 --> 34:17.000]  One thing at the very beginning of the story, it said that Bubbles was from this, uh, Safari Park in the United States.
[34:17.360 --> 34:20.460]  So, Bubbles was born in the USA?
[34:20.940 --> 34:22.380]  Well, hippos are...
[34:22.380 --> 34:26.740]  I mean, if, if, if, if Bubbles had lived, uh, she would have given birth to another hippo.
[34:26.800 --> 34:28.560]  So, yes, hippos are born in this country.
[34:28.600 --> 34:29.460]  I don't want to say every day.
[34:29.720 --> 34:30.380]  Yeah, hippo...
[34:31.620 --> 34:33.920]  Hippos can be naturalized like that.
[34:34.060 --> 34:34.220]  Yeah.
[34:34.760 --> 34:38.880]  I mean, Trump would do everything he could to make sure they didn't get natural, but...
[34:38.880 --> 34:40.800]  All kinds of BS about birth certificates, yeah.
[34:41.040 --> 34:43.300]  But Bubbles was a citizen, as far as I'm concerned.
[34:44.480 --> 34:44.920]  Okay.
[34:44.920 --> 34:46.920]  That's why she's on display in a warehouse.
[34:47.180 --> 34:48.260]  A patriot, no less.
[34:48.680 --> 34:49.120]  Yeah.
[34:49.240 --> 34:50.160]  She's not on display.
[34:50.160 --> 34:50.920]  Well, not on display.
[34:51.100 --> 34:52.660]  Okay, stored in a warehouse, all right.
[34:53.640 --> 34:53.880]  Yeah.
[34:53.880 --> 34:53.940]  Yeah.
[34:54.820 --> 34:55.720]  I'm glad, though.
[34:55.840 --> 34:56.860]  I'm glad we're talking about this.
[34:57.000 --> 34:59.460]  Was anyone ever called to account for her death?
[34:59.700 --> 35:02.080]  Uh, well, they haven't called us.
[35:02.240 --> 35:04.100]  Was anyone ever called upon?
[35:04.400 --> 35:11.340]  I don't think, I think it was, you know, an accident where they, they, they hit her with two tranquilizer darts and she fell awkwardly or something like that.
[35:11.360 --> 35:12.860]  That's what they, that's what the story is anyway.
[35:13.760 --> 35:14.240]  Also...
[35:14.240 --> 35:15.480]  That's what the story is.
[35:15.600 --> 35:33.400]  The doctor bringing this other drug into the mix, I know, and I'm not, I'm no anesthesiologist, but I know when you have different drugs, um, interacting, there can be synergistic effects that may have led to her stumbling and, and, uh, then, um, having some trouble breathing and so forth,
[35:33.520 --> 35:36.540]  but it is a, it's a tale of...
[35:36.540 --> 35:38.060]  It's two guards plus a third.
[35:38.220 --> 35:38.840]  That's right.
[35:39.000 --> 35:39.420]  That's right.
[35:39.540 --> 35:40.940]  So they may not have been coordinating.
[35:40.940 --> 35:45.220]  It really, it sounded like overkill and he'd kill.
[35:45.480 --> 35:45.740]  Yeah.
[35:45.960 --> 35:54.520]  And somebody should be held accountable for an obviously, obviously bad judgment.
[35:54.540 --> 36:01.480]  Well, maybe, you know, one of those cold case TV shows can, can finally close the book on this one, 43 years after the fact.
[36:01.740 --> 36:02.340]  Yes, Gila, go ahead.
[36:02.920 --> 36:03.640]  Um, yes.
[36:03.840 --> 36:07.980]  The, um, Ranger, I, so I found an Orange County Register article.
[36:07.980 --> 36:11.180]  We were listening to the news line earlier.
[36:11.480 --> 36:17.440]  And yeah, the general consensus is that it was the third shot that did it.
[36:17.600 --> 36:17.820]  Uh huh.
[36:18.340 --> 36:21.300]  And it happened very quickly, apparently.
[36:21.540 --> 36:24.680]  And all the Rangers were operating under the assumption that bubbles was still alive.
[36:24.680 --> 36:27.320]  And then it turned out bubbles wasn't.
[36:27.620 --> 36:27.980]  Yeah.
[36:27.980 --> 36:29.480]  I think this is actually very traumatizing.
[36:29.640 --> 36:34.340]  Well, you heard the shock and all the CBS employees voices where they, they thought it was going to be a feel good story.
[36:35.200 --> 36:35.560]  Absolutely.
[36:35.880 --> 36:36.460]  It sure wasn't.
[36:36.460 --> 36:39.340]  But some of them, some of them were laughing.
[36:40.080 --> 36:44.760]  Well, yeah, but you do that, you know, out of nervousness when you're feeling great, great trauma.
[36:46.420 --> 36:50.120]  That's, that's what I'm going to say out of respect for CBS employees.
[36:50.600 --> 36:56.200]  Well, I also think there's a certain gallows humor, especially in newsrooms, because I don't know.
[36:56.240 --> 37:03.400]  I mean, I know there are news photographers that have death reels because they've gone and shot car crashes for 20 years.
[37:03.400 --> 37:09.280]  You know, there's, there's some sick stuff in news reporting that doesn't necessarily become public.
[37:09.280 --> 37:16.160]  And so it's, I think, more of a camaraderie of seeing crazy headlines like that on the job.
[37:16.160 --> 37:33.440]  You get a certain numbness that to outsiders might appear like totally screwed up, but to people that this is their job day in, day out, they kind of have these, these roller coasters of emotions as they're conveying really heart wrenching stuff to people,
[37:33.500 --> 37:33.760]  you know?
[37:34.620 --> 37:34.780]  Yeah.
[37:34.940 --> 37:36.960]  Like they have to distance themselves a little bit.
[37:37.140 --> 37:38.920]  Otherwise, how are you going to do this day in, day out?
[37:39.000 --> 37:40.300]  That's, that's the way I hear it.
[37:40.400 --> 37:41.860]  Bus plunge collections.
[37:42.420 --> 37:51.320]  You know, reporters have been collecting these for decades, stories that for some reason, uh, bus plunges are very common, uh, in, uh, in, in news reporting.
[37:51.800 --> 37:57.640]  Um, you don't hear car plunges nearly as much, but bus plunges are very, uh, very frequently reported.
[37:58.380 --> 38:09.720]  Well, when I was an intern at the WBAI, uh, newsroom, uh, I never ran into that gallows.
[38:10.120 --> 38:12.160]  Well, it's a different kind of newsroom.
[38:12.320 --> 38:15.480]  It's a very rare type of newsroom, the WBAI newsroom.
[38:15.700 --> 38:19.780]  Uh, but commercially it's, uh, you know, it's, it's a product.
[38:19.780 --> 38:24.500]  It gets, you know, piped in one day, forgotten the next, and that's just how it works.
[38:24.500 --> 38:31.140]  And when you're dealing with people from all over the world, uh, doing the same thing, as Carl said, you develop this, this, this gallows humor.
[38:31.320 --> 38:36.960]  It's, it's, you know, just something that, um, I think is normal, uh, and not necessarily a bad thing.
[38:37.160 --> 38:38.040]  And, um...
[38:38.040 --> 38:48.140]  I just mean, I don't want to cover for it totally either, but I just mean that it may not have been meant, been meant in a mean-spirited way as much as it sounds.
[38:48.140 --> 38:52.940]  We're talking about a hippo on the other side of the country, you know, it's, it's a funny sounding story.
[38:53.080 --> 38:53.420]  I'm sorry.
[38:53.540 --> 38:54.160]  It just is.
[38:54.340 --> 38:55.600]  There's something funny about it.
[38:55.680 --> 38:58.880]  It's not a funny situation, but 43 years later...
[38:59.920 --> 39:07.320]  People assuming that a hippo's life is, is not really worthwhile as a human's life.
[39:07.420 --> 39:09.920]  Yeah, I don't think that's, that's what they were conveying at all.
[39:10.180 --> 39:10.660]  Now, Gila, go ahead.
[39:11.180 --> 39:14.640]  Yeah, no, um, so first of all, I definitely agree with both of you, Emanuel and Kyle.
[39:14.640 --> 39:23.580]  I think that, you know, when you're in any situation, you have that kind of coping mechanism that you come up with, you have to let the steam out somehow.
[39:23.860 --> 39:33.480]  But the other thing that I was not entirely aware of was what kind of national focus there was on this leading up to Bubbles' death.
[39:33.720 --> 39:43.120]  Like again, this, or this article I found in the Orange County Register from 2009, by the way, um, everybody was there and Johnny Carson was talking about Bubbles.
[39:43.120 --> 39:43.460]  Uh-huh.
[39:43.460 --> 39:48.500]  This was, and especially in 1978, 78, is that where we were?
[39:48.720 --> 39:48.980]  Yes, 1978.
[39:49.420 --> 39:54.780]  With, back then, news stories had a longer life than they do now.
[39:55.000 --> 40:01.840]  And they don't seem to anymore, because we didn't have the 24-hour news cycle in the same way then.
[40:02.060 --> 40:04.240]  And you could talk about this for 19 days.
[40:04.240 --> 40:10.820]  And I'm very curious how certain things, especially like large national news stories, would have played out now.
[40:11.080 --> 40:14.740]  Like, how would the hostages in Iran have played now?
[40:15.320 --> 40:15.920]  True.
[40:16.100 --> 40:17.300]  It would be so radically different.
[40:17.500 --> 40:22.700]  You'd be like, interviewing somebody's college roommate just to get the time filled.
[40:24.360 --> 40:27.360]  And, you know, what everybody thought was going to be a different ending to this story.
[40:27.820 --> 40:38.020]  So I think it's fascinating to see, and also how when there were three networks and that was it, how everybody could just sort of zero in on the same thing and be hearing the same thing.
[40:38.020 --> 40:50.660]  Yeah, if anything, they were laughing at themselves for just covering this story so devoutly over all that time, and just the reaction of, you know, front page on newspapers and things like that, mocking themselves.
[40:50.940 --> 40:56.140]  Just like with, there was one point where they were saying, how many times have we led with the coal strike?
[40:56.320 --> 41:03.120]  You know, we might as well just start with coal as the first word of every newscast, because that's all everybody's been talking about for the last few months.
[41:03.120 --> 41:11.280]  You know, obviously, they're not mocking coal workers, they're mocking the story, they're mocking the way they're covering it, and just news in general.
[41:11.280 --> 41:13.040]  And I think that's somewhat healthy.
[41:15.060 --> 41:18.040]  Yeah, and Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.
[41:18.220 --> 41:20.400]  And he is still dead, yes, absolutely.
[41:21.060 --> 41:22.460]  Caller, anything else from you?
[41:24.300 --> 41:25.340]  No, that's it.
[41:25.480 --> 41:26.520]  All right, well, thanks for calling.
[41:27.500 --> 41:27.800]  Bye-bye.
[41:29.000 --> 41:30.740]  And we've gotten a lot of calls tonight.
[41:33.880 --> 41:35.880]  So, I guess maybe one more?
[41:36.080 --> 41:36.700]  What do you think?
[41:38.040 --> 41:39.100]  Sure, why not?
[41:39.280 --> 41:39.580]  All right.
[41:39.860 --> 41:41.020]  What's the phone number again?
[41:41.120 --> 41:42.040]  Maybe give that out?
[41:42.060 --> 41:43.080]  Why don't you tell us, Alex?
[41:43.380 --> 41:44.320]  You should memorize it.
[41:45.660 --> 41:46.260]  What is it?
[41:46.520 --> 41:48.660]  802-321-HACK?
[41:48.860 --> 41:49.800]  Yeah, no, you got it right.
[41:50.620 --> 41:51.340]  Don't do that.
[41:51.840 --> 41:53.660]  802-321-HACK is the number.
[41:53.800 --> 41:54.180]  Oh, okay.
[41:54.220 --> 41:57.000]  And since you used to live in 802, I expect you to know that.
[41:57.000 --> 41:58.120]  802-225.
[41:58.260 --> 41:58.640]  That's right.
[41:58.640 --> 42:00.900]  I live in the 802 for several years.
[42:01.120 --> 42:02.560]  I miss it every day.
[42:02.920 --> 42:03.000]  Okay.
[42:03.280 --> 42:04.920]  Wonderful state, the 802.
[42:05.340 --> 42:07.080]  Right next to the 603.
[42:08.020 --> 42:12.640]  Does anybody other than me and you know what states you're talking about?
[42:13.660 --> 42:14.220]  Gila?
[42:14.340 --> 42:14.500]  Rob?
[42:14.680 --> 42:15.500]  I'm looking at you.
[42:16.180 --> 42:16.540]  No?
[42:17.260 --> 42:18.900]  You don't memorize area codes?
[42:19.540 --> 42:20.460]  Old-fashioned area codes?
[42:21.240 --> 42:21.720]  Come on.
[42:21.860 --> 42:23.640]  Some of them I do, actually.
[42:23.860 --> 42:27.660]  But I'm really good on the Midwest and not so much the rest of the country.
[42:27.980 --> 42:29.340]  Easy to figure out, too.
[42:29.460 --> 42:31.680]  I mean, you know, what state...
[42:31.680 --> 42:33.960]  To what state is Vermont adjacent?
[42:36.400 --> 42:37.740]  Now it's geography.
[42:40.100 --> 42:41.060]  Begins with...
[42:41.480 --> 42:42.580]  Yeah, there you go.
[42:42.680 --> 42:43.600]  That's the 603.
[42:43.600 --> 42:47.720]  And then north of New Hampshire is the 207.
[42:48.460 --> 42:49.120]  That's Maine.
[42:49.980 --> 42:50.680]  That is Maine.
[42:50.860 --> 42:51.380]  That's right.
[42:51.700 --> 42:51.880]  Yep.
[42:52.640 --> 42:56.660]  And the other interesting thing is that area codes, if they have a zero...
[42:56.660 --> 43:04.560]  Of course, none of this applies anymore, but if they have a zero in them and you're 30 years ago, it means that's the only area code in the whole state.
[43:05.000 --> 43:05.340]  Right.
[43:05.340 --> 43:06.020]  A zero in the middle.
[43:06.180 --> 43:08.000]  So 207, only one area code in Maine.
[43:08.520 --> 43:10.340]  802, only one area code in Vermont.
[43:11.120 --> 43:12.720]  603, only one area code in New Hampshire.
[43:13.900 --> 43:14.300]  212?
[43:14.680 --> 43:15.020]  No.
[43:17.020 --> 43:17.820]  There's no...
[43:17.820 --> 43:23.460]  Any area code that has a zero in the middle of it in New York State is an area code that was added later.
[43:24.060 --> 43:30.700]  But the states like California, 415, 213, 619, all had ones in the middle because there are multiple area codes.
[43:30.980 --> 43:38.960]  But a state like New Mexico, 505, Colorado, 303, Hawaii, 808, Alaska, 907, all had zeros in the middle because they only had one area code.
[43:39.080 --> 43:40.080]  I like that system.
[43:40.140 --> 43:40.940]  That was a good system.
[43:40.940 --> 43:42.440]  They really messed it up.
[43:42.820 --> 43:52.040]  I mean, it's unique and it's interesting as well when the numbers themselves convey information aside from the numerical value.
[43:52.040 --> 43:53.940]  Yeah, like the interstate system.
[43:54.100 --> 43:54.340]  Okay?
[43:54.460 --> 44:02.960]  You have I-95, odd number, in the 90s means furthest to the east, and the odd number means north-south.
[44:03.100 --> 44:09.400]  Whereas I-90 means you're high up latitude-wise, but it's an even number so you're going east-west.
[44:09.400 --> 44:10.240]  Okay?
[44:10.520 --> 44:16.440]  I-5 is on the west coast, odd number, but low in digits, north-south.
[44:16.640 --> 44:17.060]  You know?
[44:17.220 --> 44:18.960]  And it just... it goes like that.
[44:19.220 --> 44:23.100]  They really messed it up, though, when they built I-99 for some reason in Pennsylvania.
[44:23.480 --> 44:25.440]  But I don't like to talk about that.
[44:26.320 --> 44:27.140]  We have a call.
[44:27.360 --> 44:28.080]  Good evening.
[44:28.080 --> 44:29.480]  You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
[44:30.780 --> 44:36.200]  Good afternoon, New York and upper northeast children.
[44:37.140 --> 44:37.620]  How you doing?
[44:37.860 --> 44:38.200]  Good.
[44:38.340 --> 44:39.060]  You say afternoon.
[44:39.240 --> 44:40.520]  Are you far to the west?
[44:41.680 --> 44:43.020]  Nah, I'm on the east coast, too.
[44:43.120 --> 44:44.780]  I'm just down here in the mountains in Kentucky.
[44:45.280 --> 44:46.160]  Just had a couple questions.
[44:46.480 --> 44:46.980]  Okay, go ahead.
[44:47.340 --> 44:52.340]  One, has Off the Hook or 2600 ever had a presence on MySpace?
[44:52.380 --> 44:54.920]  I was just having a conversation about MySpace.
[44:54.920 --> 45:00.780]  Two, have any of y'all ever been to jail for computer-related crimes?
[45:00.940 --> 45:02.300]  And if so, do you have a story about it?
[45:02.600 --> 45:05.280]  And also some additional input.
[45:05.920 --> 45:20.100]  Overheard the Russian caller, and they were talking about import-export relations with the United States and America, America and Russia, in terms of hot dog quality.
[45:20.100 --> 45:25.060]  They did not have many good things to say about American hot dog quality.
[45:26.040 --> 45:35.920]  But they were hopeful that the relationship will improve between the countries so that America can import more of Russia's hot dogs.
[45:35.980 --> 45:36.260]  Wait a minute.
[45:36.440 --> 45:41.540]  That Russian woman from Detroit was talking to me about hot dogs?
[45:42.860 --> 45:48.420]  Yes, and the quality, the poor quality in America and the excellent quality in Russia.
[45:48.640 --> 45:57.220]  And her hopes of the relationship between the countries improving so that the import and export of hot dogs can be improved.
[45:57.380 --> 46:00.060]  Well, that's a bit of a shock.
[46:00.280 --> 46:01.720]  I didn't think that's what she was talking about.
[46:02.140 --> 46:05.900]  But just to tell everybody, the best hot dogs in the world are in Iceland.
[46:06.720 --> 46:07.980]  So, everyone's wrong on that.
[46:08.660 --> 46:10.380]  I bet she was reading from a book or something.
[46:10.480 --> 46:11.420]  That must have been what she was doing.
[46:11.880 --> 46:13.200]  Why would she be telling me about hot dogs?
[46:14.340 --> 46:14.960]  Makes no sense.
[46:15.160 --> 46:15.300]  I don't know.
[46:15.360 --> 46:16.800]  They're pretty wild folks.
[46:16.900 --> 46:18.060]  So, you know Russian, then?
[46:20.040 --> 46:20.680]  Um, decent.
[46:20.960 --> 46:21.260]  Okay.
[46:21.440 --> 46:22.000]  Well, I'm impressed.
[46:22.680 --> 46:23.900]  I'm glad we got an answer to that.
[46:24.180 --> 46:30.600]  As for your question about going to jail, I've been arrested, but I've never gone to jail for computer-related things.
[46:31.260 --> 46:38.560]  I've gone to jail for conscious objector stuff and for being on 16th Street during the Republican Convention.
[46:38.760 --> 46:39.940]  Literally, that's what I was arrested for.
[46:40.020 --> 46:41.260]  I think that's called news gathering.
[46:41.500 --> 46:47.700]  And there was every single thing I was ever arrested for, charges were dropped or things expunged or whatnot.
[46:48.120 --> 46:48.860]  Did we lose our call?
[46:48.940 --> 46:49.220]  Is that you?
[46:49.540 --> 46:50.280]  That's our end.
[46:50.320 --> 46:51.120]  I fumbled the phone.
[46:51.160 --> 46:51.680]  Fumbled the phone.
[46:51.680 --> 46:58.700]  Um, so, um, yeah, I don't think anybody else, uh, has, has ever, uh, we, we've had people on.
[46:58.840 --> 46:59.540]  We've had Phiber Optik.
[46:59.680 --> 47:00.440]  We've had Kevin Mitnick.
[47:00.540 --> 47:01.160]  We've had Bernie S.
[47:01.360 --> 47:06.500]  You know, people have been put in prison for ridiculous, uh, uh, quote unquote offenses.
[47:06.780 --> 47:26.200]  I've told a lot of people's stories and, uh, a lot of, um, subscribers and people get the magazine who have, you know, fallen afoul of the law one way or another and are, are, um, really loyal readers because there's not a lot to do when you're incarcerated.
[47:26.240 --> 47:29.620]  So we have a lot of readership in all kinds of places.
[47:29.980 --> 47:34.800]  I don't think anyone here can say that, um, they avoided that kind of thing.
[47:35.240 --> 47:40.200]  Um, uh, out of, uh, out of, you know, their, their morality or anything like that.
[47:40.200 --> 47:40.720]  It's luck.
[47:40.900 --> 47:41.640]  It's pure luck.
[47:41.880 --> 47:52.320]  Uh, because if you're in a particular situation, you know, I was in a situation, I was told, yeah, you can go to jail for 55 years, you know, because five years and every count, 11 count indictment, whatever.
[47:52.880 --> 48:03.960]  Uh, if, if I was not white, for instance, on a number of occasions, you know, traffic stops, uh, things could have happened to me that didn't happen to me.
[48:04.120 --> 48:06.340]  So yeah, I didn't, I didn't go to prison.
[48:06.480 --> 48:09.540]  I didn't go to jail for computer related things, but I easily could have.
[48:09.540 --> 48:25.560]  Under different circumstances, if, if the, if the dice had just been rolled a different way, I would just add the caveat that over the course of the last 30 years, the, the legality of one thing or another has been a bit of a moving target.
[48:25.560 --> 48:32.960]  And we've covered that extensively in the magazine and on, um, radio here off the hook for years, we've been talking about various laws.
[48:32.960 --> 48:39.920]  It'll be DMCA one year and, um, uh, you know, secret FISA courts another year.
[48:40.520 --> 48:59.180]  Um, and, you know, throughout it, we'll see, you know, decades of trans hackers, you know, kicking ass and taking names at the same time, you know, so there's like these through lines that we see over the years and what may have been okay, or maybe got you in minor trouble,
[48:59.200 --> 49:03.220]  um, 20 years ago is super not okay.
[49:03.420 --> 49:03.640]  Now.
[49:03.780 --> 49:15.660]  And, and vice versa, there are things that are less, um, of a target now because, well, maybe phone calls aren't as, uh, valuable in the same way it was 20, 30 years ago.
[49:15.660 --> 49:18.060]  So the examples like that, you have to definitely keep in mind.
[49:18.220 --> 49:18.300]  Yeah.
[49:18.380 --> 49:25.520]  I think today it would have, it would have gone differently if I was in the same situation I was in, uh, 30, 40 years ago.
[49:25.940 --> 49:27.320]  Um, and that's scary.
[49:27.480 --> 49:29.720]  That's scary because, you know, people haven't changed.
[49:29.840 --> 49:36.400]  Why, why should, uh, why should we consider something to be a punishable offense that's worthy of ruining someone's life?
[49:36.860 --> 49:39.320]  Uh, when, when nothing else has changed.
[49:39.440 --> 49:39.900]  Think about it.
[49:40.300 --> 49:49.600]  Also another example, just to speak to that, the concept of, of computers and the internet, it's now considered a theater of war.
[49:49.820 --> 49:50.460]  Yeah.
[49:50.620 --> 49:50.740]  Yeah.
[49:50.840 --> 49:52.020]  Put that in your pipe.
[49:52.180 --> 50:14.040]  It is pretty crazy to think that this network that was in many altruistic ways for people connecting and becoming actually having better relations and maybe importing more Russian hot dogs, you know, that magic was the promise of it, but it is now where we're,
[50:14.120 --> 50:19.220]  um, playing out diplomatic and other strategic policy.
[50:19.340 --> 50:32.680]  And so to consider something that would have, that had so much promise and still does, that is now in many ways being co-opted as a theater of war is also a consideration when you look at what we're, what we're facing now versus then.
[50:32.860 --> 50:33.120]  Yes.
[50:33.200 --> 50:33.840]  Rob, you had something.
[50:34.660 --> 50:35.100]  Yeah.
[50:35.280 --> 50:37.620]  And I think, uh, I think it's also very important to consider.
[50:37.820 --> 50:49.900]  And yes, I agree that, uh, you know, multiple of us, uh, here on this program have maybe gotten away with things that, uh, they wouldn't have gotten away with had they had a different color skin or, uh, had things taken place in a different era.
[50:50.220 --> 50:51.780]  And, uh, and that's crap.
[50:51.920 --> 50:53.720]  And, uh, you know, white privilege is real.
[50:53.860 --> 50:56.000]  I broke into an abandoned mental hospital.
[50:56.220 --> 50:56.360]  Yeah.
[50:56.360 --> 50:58.120]  I broke into an abandoned mental hospital.
[50:58.120 --> 51:02.080]  I was caught and got away with it, you know, because I wasn't doing anything bad.
[51:02.860 --> 51:03.420]  Exactly.
[51:03.840 --> 51:20.180]  But also it's a fact of the matter that anyone who has spent significant time in the hacker community, if they themselves haven't been busted and had so many unjust books thrown at them for doing something relatively minor in real life, if you haven't,
[51:20.320 --> 51:24.920]  chances are you know someone who has, because it is that widespread in our community.
[51:25.280 --> 51:26.980]  And yeah, it's crap.
[51:28.900 --> 51:29.680]  Alex, go ahead.
[51:33.600 --> 51:35.100]  Alex, you got to say something.
[51:36.980 --> 51:37.660]  You're muted.
[51:38.140 --> 51:38.440]  Go ahead.
[51:39.220 --> 51:39.660]  Classic.
[51:39.800 --> 51:40.660]  Somebody's got to do it.
[51:40.780 --> 51:43.340]  We didn't have any mute issues all night.
[51:43.640 --> 51:46.060]  You know, I had to correct that.
[51:46.740 --> 51:49.080]  Anyway, yeah, I think the caller brings up an interesting point.
[51:49.080 --> 51:51.560]  And I think everyone's responses are well taken.
[51:51.740 --> 51:56.160]  When I was younger, I did get in trouble every once in a while myself.
[51:59.980 --> 52:04.980]  I never had any drastic consequences.
[52:05.240 --> 52:09.800]  And certainly, if it were the case now, they probably would have been drastic.
[52:09.800 --> 52:14.660]  But these were things that I thought could potentially follow me later on.
[52:15.590 --> 52:22.340]  You know, years later, I had to obtain a top-secret security clearance with access to sensitive compartmented information.
[52:22.400 --> 52:31.880]  I had to take a lifestyle polygraph exam, part of which was about the misuse of information technology.
[52:31.880 --> 52:35.760]  So you couldn't imagine I was sweating a little bit during that portion of the polygraph.
[52:36.500 --> 52:41.080]  But look, you know, everyone has got these crazy experiences.
[52:41.080 --> 52:48.960]  I think kids now have it a hell of a lot harder than we did when we were growing up in the 90s, the 80s, 70s, whatever the hell it was.
[52:48.960 --> 53:01.240]  But part of this, too, I feel like I'm always recommending this book, but The Hacker Crackdown by Bruce Sterling is such a great anthology of the hacker culture during those times.
[53:01.240 --> 53:04.540]  It really tells those stories that it sounds like you're interested in hearing, caller.
[53:04.540 --> 53:11.880]  And also, when I was in law school, I actually was on the law review in Vermont.
[53:11.960 --> 53:18.480]  And one of the things you do as a law student is you write what's called a note, or a law review note.
[53:18.740 --> 53:21.260]  It's essentially a long scholarly article.
[53:21.860 --> 53:28.040]  And my law review note was exactly on this subject, and it was published by the Vermont Law Review.
[53:28.040 --> 53:36.700]  And it's entitled, Toward a More Equitable Prosecution of Cybercrime Concerning Hackers, Criminals, and the National Security.
[53:36.900 --> 53:43.840]  And it is in the 29th volume of the Vermont Law Review at page 975.
[53:44.180 --> 53:52.500]  So the citation would be 29 VT LREV 975, if you want to read it.
[53:52.640 --> 53:57.020]  Out of curiosity, did you ever publish that in any of the magazines?
[53:58.380 --> 54:03.420]  No, it hasn't been published in the magazine because it was originally published by the Vermont Law Review.
[54:03.580 --> 54:06.020]  So, you know, they probably have the copyright for it.
[54:06.180 --> 54:14.400]  But if Emanuel wanted to republish it in the magazine, I'm sure I could obtain authorization from the law review to do that.
[54:15.300 --> 54:17.400]  It's pretty long, though, I have to say.
[54:17.560 --> 54:19.320]  It's a very long, long article.
[54:19.800 --> 54:20.800]  But check it out.
[54:20.880 --> 54:24.040]  I can tweet out a link to it, too, if you're interested.
[54:24.400 --> 54:25.060]  Yeah, that'd be cool.
[54:25.180 --> 54:26.420]  I would definitely read that.
[54:26.540 --> 54:27.020]  I'd like to read that.
[54:27.060 --> 54:27.900]  That'd be cool.
[54:28.480 --> 54:31.060]  Yeah, I think we all would like to look at that.
[54:31.720 --> 54:32.360]  Why not?
[54:32.680 --> 54:34.960]  Are there questions, Carla, that we didn't address?
[54:37.060 --> 54:40.060]  Y'all didn't let me know if you had a presence on MySpace.
[54:40.300 --> 54:40.980]  Oh, MySpace.
[54:41.060 --> 54:42.360]  Yeah, you know, I think we did.
[54:43.220 --> 54:45.280]  I don't know if I can remember what it was.
[54:45.480 --> 54:50.900]  But we just sort of let it go after a while and forgot about it.
[54:51.560 --> 54:53.180]  So I don't think we can...
[54:53.180 --> 54:55.360]  Yeah, we couldn't access it if we tried.
[54:56.780 --> 54:57.740]  Yeah, bad times.
[54:57.940 --> 55:00.160]  But yeah, I'll let you guys go and let you continue on the show.
[55:00.680 --> 55:02.520]  But thank you very much for answering the questions.
[55:02.660 --> 55:03.180]  Appreciate it.
[55:03.600 --> 55:04.000]  Yeah.
[55:04.000 --> 55:05.020]  Thank you for your call.
[55:05.280 --> 55:05.840]  Thank you for listening.
[55:06.080 --> 55:06.820]  Yeah, thanks for listening.
[55:07.960 --> 55:08.820]  Yes, Alex, go ahead.
[55:09.500 --> 55:10.160]  You know what?
[55:10.600 --> 55:13.620]  I actually just pulled up the law review article.
[55:13.700 --> 55:15.760]  I haven't looked at this in a really long time.
[55:16.680 --> 55:19.400]  And you know what the lead-in to the article is.
[55:19.420 --> 55:21.860]  I'll read you the first sentence of...
[55:21.860 --> 55:23.000]  It's written in lead-speak, right?
[55:23.080 --> 55:25.460]  You wrote it in lead-speak, which was very unheard of back then.
[55:25.600 --> 55:27.300]  Actually, that would have been super cool.
[55:27.620 --> 55:40.280]  But the first sentence of my law review article from 2004, I wrote in 2004, published in 2005, is when I was 15 and in 10th grade, on the first Friday of every month...
[55:40.280 --> 55:40.580]  Oh, boy.
[55:40.780 --> 55:47.280]  I used to tell my mother that I was engaged in some sort of after-school activity and would not be home until late that evening.
[55:47.960 --> 55:52.340]  Instead of engaging that activity, I took the school bus as close as possible to the train station.
[55:52.500 --> 55:54.000]  I would take the 3.06 p.m.
[55:54.460 --> 55:59.680]  train from Ronkonkoma, New York, the last stop on Long Island to Pennsylvania Station, New York City.
[55:59.880 --> 56:03.720]  From Penn Station, I took the subway uptown to 53rd and Lex.
[56:03.980 --> 56:07.760]  From Lexington, I walked over to 3rd Avenue to what was then called the City Court Building.
[56:07.980 --> 56:14.800]  I would glide down the escalators of the City Court Building to where the fast-food chain surrounded the lobby and a large bank of payphones stood.
[56:15.380 --> 56:24.360]  In the lobby of the City Court Building on 53rd and 3rd next to the payphones the first Friday of every month at 5 o'clock was where the New York 2,600 meetings took place.
[56:24.740 --> 56:26.580]  This is where the hackers met.
[56:26.860 --> 56:27.260]  Wow.
[56:27.320 --> 56:27.680]  Pretty cool.
[56:27.880 --> 56:28.440]  It is cool.
[56:28.440 --> 56:32.040]  But if I could just make one correction, it's a minor correction.
[56:33.980 --> 56:35.880]  Ronkonkoma is not technically the last stop.
[56:36.020 --> 56:40.920]  I mean, it is for most trains, but about three times a day a train goes further east to Greenport.
[56:41.260 --> 56:42.800]  Other than that, it was perfect.
[56:43.420 --> 56:44.000]  All right.
[56:44.140 --> 56:44.280]  Yeah.
[56:44.460 --> 56:44.560]  Yeah.
[56:44.620 --> 56:45.780]  Last stop on that line.
[56:46.000 --> 56:46.140]  Yep.
[56:46.500 --> 56:46.660]  Yeah.
[56:47.140 --> 56:47.400]  Mm-hmm.
[56:47.640 --> 56:49.160]  I just feel accuracy is important.
[56:49.960 --> 56:50.260]  Yes.
[56:50.440 --> 56:52.220]  Rob, you have a comment?
[56:53.480 --> 56:53.880]  Yeah.
[56:53.980 --> 56:58.920]  Just going back to what you were saying about like, you know, exploring an abandoned mental hospital and stuff.
[56:59.780 --> 57:09.180]  That jogs a memory for me because back in the 90s, I was involved with what's known as urban exploration and did some of that stuff, that sort of thing myself.
[57:09.180 --> 57:10.240]  never got caught.
[57:10.780 --> 57:27.820]  But I remember like just in my in my first real experience of the context changing in a big way, I remember after the September 11th, 2001 attacks happened and like people who ran the big urban exploration forums and zines and stuff like pillars of the community were saying,
[57:27.980 --> 57:30.300]  okay, things are totally different now.
[57:30.640 --> 57:31.760]  We're not messing with this anymore.
[57:32.380 --> 57:37.380]  And the hobby as, you know, as a thing is probably over or at the very least, very, very different.
[57:37.380 --> 57:41.740]  Of course, it eventually came back and, you know, as these things do, it rebounded.
[57:41.840 --> 57:51.920]  But at the time, it was like, oh, something that was, you know, kind of kind of okay to do or at least people would look the other way is suddenly a big deal because we are, quote unquote, living in a different world.
[57:52.240 --> 57:53.000]  But you see that...
[57:53.000 --> 57:54.060]  Things like that, yeah.
[57:54.180 --> 57:58.320]  That's exactly when you double down and you say, no, this is not that.
[57:58.320 --> 58:01.660]  This is something that we believe in that we're going to stand by.
[58:01.800 --> 58:03.680]  I mean, same thing could have happened with computer hackers.
[58:03.820 --> 58:10.320]  We could have all said, okay, that's it for us because they're going to see cybercrime as the same thing as terrorism, which, you know, many people do.
[58:11.260 --> 58:13.220]  And we don't want to be a part of that.
[58:13.360 --> 58:20.300]  If you believe in what you do, if you believe in the curiosity, the exploration, then when that's threatened, you defend it.
[58:21.040 --> 58:26.600]  You know, exploring abandoned buildings, not the same thing as crashing airplanes into occupied buildings.
[58:26.880 --> 58:27.960]  Very, very different.
[58:28.420 --> 58:37.220]  And it's up to us to educate people as to why there's an allure to this type of thing.
[58:37.220 --> 58:38.200]  Why do we do this?
[58:38.300 --> 58:41.080]  Why do we go places that we're told not to go?
[58:41.240 --> 58:43.280]  Why do we want to share information like this?
[58:43.660 --> 58:48.440]  You know, we're doing it a very long time and it applies to so many different aspects of life.
[58:48.760 --> 58:50.340]  And it's always under threat.
[58:50.520 --> 58:53.220]  It's always going to be categorized as something that it's not.
[58:53.760 --> 58:55.700]  But I just think we need to stick together.
[58:59.360 --> 59:01.080]  And I guess that's the last word on that.
[59:01.200 --> 59:01.380]  Okay.
[59:02.120 --> 59:07.000]  We are pretty much done, I think, because it's late and we've been doing this for a while.
[59:07.120 --> 59:08.340]  But thank you, everybody, for listening.
[59:08.500 --> 59:10.400]  Thank you for being a part of this, for calling in.
[59:10.480 --> 59:11.900]  We have more calls, I think, tonight than ever.
[59:13.340 --> 59:15.580]  And we will do it again next week, I believe.
[59:15.840 --> 59:16.180]  Right?
[59:16.560 --> 59:21.160]  And you can, of course, write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[59:21.260 --> 59:27.260]  You can listen to all previous editions of this show at the website, 2600.com slash off the hook.
[59:27.600 --> 59:32.740]  We have all a bunch, all kinds of different radio shows on there as well, not just off the hook.
[59:33.280 --> 59:35.020]  Just explore the website.
[59:36.960 --> 59:39.480]  And folks, good being around, seeing you guys again.
[59:39.580 --> 59:41.280]  Hope to see you in person sometime soon.
[59:41.500 --> 59:44.780]  Maybe in a month or so we'll be able to at least hang out, if not go to the studio.
[59:45.760 --> 59:45.980]  Yeah.
[59:46.280 --> 59:47.600]  I think that'd be great.
[59:47.880 --> 59:48.900]  I think soon enough.
[59:49.680 --> 59:50.080]  So...
[59:50.080 --> 59:54.660]  And I hope 2600 meetings come back in the months ahead.
[59:55.040 --> 59:59.440]  The world is not doing as well as I had hoped they would be doing by now.
[01:00:00.700 --> 01:00:12.000]  We have a lot of work ahead of us as far as getting the vaccine to people, particularly to other countries and getting people who have access to show up to get the vaccine.
[01:00:12.120 --> 01:00:16.740]  The more people that get it, the more people won't get the disease and won't spread the disease.
[01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:18.540]  And that is what's important.
[01:00:19.540 --> 01:00:20.180]  All right.
[01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:21.800]  Again, pleasure as always.
[01:00:22.540 --> 01:00:23.580]  See everybody next week.
[01:00:23.720 --> 01:00:23.880]  Good night.
[01:00:24.360 --> 01:00:24.540]  Good night.