[00:31.020 --> 00:33.500]  And better late than never, this is WBAI New York.
[00:33.640 --> 00:35.980]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[01:57.990 --> 01:59.750]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:59.830 --> 02:00.970]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:01.090 --> 02:04.810]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:05.750 --> 02:06.350]  Over here.
[02:06.490 --> 02:06.970]  Rob T. Firefly.
[02:08.730 --> 02:09.470]  Good evening.
[02:09.650 --> 02:09.910]  Gila.
[02:11.010 --> 02:12.050]  Greetings and salutation.
[02:12.330 --> 02:12.910]  And Alex.
[02:13.770 --> 02:14.430]  Good evening.
[02:14.670 --> 02:15.030]  How you doing?
[02:16.370 --> 02:17.050]  Pretty well.
[02:17.130 --> 02:17.610]  How are you guys?
[02:17.690 --> 02:22.030]  We're doing all right, I think, except for a little rough landing sometimes getting this thing started.
[02:22.030 --> 02:23.430]  But we're underway now.
[02:23.590 --> 02:25.610]  We have an hour on WBAI.
[02:25.690 --> 02:28.730]  We have another hour or so on overtime afterwards.
[02:29.010 --> 02:30.650]  Go to 2600.com.
[02:30.730 --> 02:31.890]  Look for the link on top of the page.
[02:31.890 --> 02:34.170]  If you want to just wait online there, you can do that.
[02:35.330 --> 02:37.430]  And we have a special guest coming up in just a couple of minutes.
[02:37.430 --> 02:40.550]  So we have all sorts of things to talk about.
[02:43.690 --> 02:44.070]  Yeah.
[02:44.290 --> 02:50.730]  Well, there's been a lot in the news over the last 24 hours, 28 hours or so.
[02:50.730 --> 03:00.470]  And I think this is definitely going to be an interesting show this evening that builds on top of a lot of momentum, I think, that has been building this country for quite a while.
[03:00.630 --> 03:03.250]  Well, we're definitely going to plunge right into that.
[03:03.350 --> 03:09.050]  But I wanted to stop by our mailbox first, because we do get a bunch of mail from people.
[03:09.050 --> 03:17.430]  And we got a particularly interesting letter from a listener who has lived in Australia, doesn't live in Australia currently.
[03:18.470 --> 03:19.850]  Great show, great overtime.
[03:20.290 --> 03:22.490]  A couple of things that you might find interesting.
[03:23.030 --> 03:28.190]  You discussed, what would we do if the pandemic happened in the 1960s?
[03:28.330 --> 03:30.990]  How would we do remote schooling, etc.?
[03:30.990 --> 03:37.510]  Well, in my homeland of Australia, remote schooling was the norm for many right up until about 10 years ago.
[03:37.910 --> 03:38.230]  Yeah.
[03:38.450 --> 03:40.090]  It was all done with radio.
[03:40.670 --> 03:42.950]  Originally all done on shortwave radio.
[03:42.950 --> 03:45.670]  And it was called the School of the Air.
[03:46.490 --> 03:52.670]  I guess if the kids couldn't get to school back in the 60s, at least Australia could have rolled out radios and expanded the system.
[03:52.670 --> 03:59.030]  So, we have an excerpt, actually, from some of the shortwave broadcasts from 1962.
[04:00.230 --> 04:05.510]  This is a combination of what it sounded like and a little bit of a documentary.
[04:05.510 --> 04:06.450]  It's about three minutes long.
[04:07.470 --> 04:12.210]  The Broken Hill Control Station is the Royal Flying Doctor Service, VJC, VJC3, Broken Hill.
[04:12.690 --> 04:14.190]  The time now is 10 o'clock.
[04:14.330 --> 04:18.790]  We demand outpost that any medical emergency arising during the school session will receive prompt attention.
[04:19.090 --> 04:20.350]  We cross now to school.
[04:21.030 --> 04:26.570]  The School of the Air's classroom studio is at Broken Hill and its four teachers serve nearly 200 children.
[04:27.150 --> 04:33.190]  The youngsters live on 90 station homesteads scattered in the remote outback, some of them 500 miles away.
[04:33.910 --> 04:40.870]  Many country children have correspondence lessons, but these youngsters have teachers who can speak to them and whom they can answer over the two-way radio.
[04:42.170 --> 04:46.690]  From their empty classroom, headmistress Mrs. Gibb assembles the School of the Air.
[04:46.690 --> 04:48.010]  Good morning, girls and boys.
[04:48.850 --> 04:51.550]  Good morning, parents and supervisors.
[04:59.150 --> 05:04.050]  Good morning, Mrs. Gibb, and Mrs. Gibb, and Mrs. Gibb.
[05:04.650 --> 05:11.890]  The Department of Education built this classroom studio for £12,000, and the Royal Flying Doctor Service provides a radio network.
[05:12.410 --> 05:14.650]  Let's visit Miss Williams' kindergarten class.
[05:15.070 --> 05:17.030]  We have written our first sentence.
[05:18.130 --> 05:20.410]  Let's have a look at the kitten in the picture.
[05:21.210 --> 05:22.890]  What do you think the kitten will do?
[05:23.750 --> 05:25.630]  What do you think the kitten will do, Gail?
[05:25.870 --> 05:26.450]  Over to 8am.
[05:27.590 --> 05:28.070]  8am.
[05:34.630 --> 05:38.550]  What do you think the puppies will do after the kitten has gone?
[05:39.730 --> 05:42.730]  Let's hear what Gail thinks the puppies are going to do.
[05:43.390 --> 05:44.550]  Over to you, Gail.
[05:45.190 --> 05:58.050]  I don't know him.
[06:06.050 --> 06:08.910]  Well, who'd like to sing the school song for us?
[06:09.110 --> 06:09.190]  Evan?
[06:14.270 --> 06:17.850]  Well, we'll go over to 8am and hear Gail and Christine.
[06:18.290 --> 06:18.810]  Over to you.
[06:18.810 --> 06:39.630]  All the little children scattered through the outback Tune into School of the Air at the start And we sing as we meet And we're many set recording All joining in, though we're many miles apart Okay,
[06:46.120 --> 06:47.900]  that is super weird.
[06:48.820 --> 06:51.280]  School of the Air from 1962.
[06:51.580 --> 06:53.180]  How they did it in Australia.
[06:53.180 --> 06:58.260]  What I love about this is all the kids say over When they're done contributing their piece.
[06:58.920 --> 07:03.020]  So yeah, I guess Australia would have made it through the pandemic just fine Because they're already doing this.
[07:03.180 --> 07:08.220]  And I also love how every kid seems to have a shortwave rig Just ready to go that they can broadcast on.
[07:09.220 --> 07:28.740]  Continuing with this letter An end note, interesting to note that where I live currently in the UK They still use unencrypted shortwave to coordinate rescue helicopters In the highlands of Scotland and the North Sea And you can listen live I'm going to give you a link It's at 5,680
[07:28.740 --> 07:54.480]  kilohertz if you have a radio But if you just have the internet, here is a link It's called WebSDR W-E-B-S-D-R Dot E-W-I Dot U-T-W-E-N-T-E That's University of 20 in the Netherlands So it's U-T-W-E-N-T-E dot N-L Colon Eight, nine, zero, one Sorry about this Slash Question mark Tune Equals Five,
[07:54.660 --> 08:09.300]  six, eight, oh, USB Yeah And if you do that You will be pre-tuned to the correct frequency And you can turn up the squelch So it doesn't make any noise And you'll hear UK rescue Helicopters, all kinds of things in the UK Thank you, Neil, for that very,
[08:09.360 --> 08:17.220]  very interesting letter And please, if you have a letter to send us O-T-H At 2600 dot com Is our email address What do you guys think of that?
[08:18.780 --> 08:42.760]  That was super cool Just Also, it's nice to know we have listeners From, like, the UK and Australia and such But, yeah, just hearing how they did it How they adapted Shortwave radios were something that you could get And, I guess, distribute to the families With children that needed them And then teach them on air etiquette Like saying over and that sort of thing It's adorable And it's very clever
[08:42.760 --> 08:48.520]  and impressive I think we should start saying over When we're finished Don't you agree, Rob?
[08:48.660 --> 08:48.800]  Over?
[08:50.980 --> 08:58.320]  I don't know That could lead to I think that way might lie madness Over Madness over what?
[08:58.920 --> 09:24.740]  Oh, no, no I'm sorry Over Yes I think I'm over this Alex You look like you have something Just wanted to say 10-4 Okay No, this is not CB land It's very different from that Okay And we had another letter from Michael Is there any donation levels Currently available to allow me to upgrade From an annual magazine subscriber to lifetime I'm a long-time paper magazine reader subscriber I'm finally at
[09:24.740 --> 09:50.740]  a point in my life I have a small amount of disposable income And I want to support you guys Well, Michael, we appreciate that But on the radio We're not going to get into how to support 2600 We will tell you how to support WBAI And that is by calling 212-209-2950 Or going to the website Give2WBAI.org That's Give2WBAI.org And pledge whatever you can There's all kinds of thank-you gifts That the
[09:50.740 --> 10:16.280]  station will give you In return for different amounts You can have a monthly recurring payment You will be a part of the WBAI family You'll be able to vote in important referendums Like one that's coming up next month And you'll be helping 99.5 FM Stay commercial-free in New York City Which is a miracle We'll talk about miracles And weird things a little bit Later on in the show And consider that
[10:16.280 --> 10:45.020]  buddy program And stretching what might be A one-time contribution now Stretching that out a little bit Because it may balance out What other members and listeners Are not able to give in the future If at all So we may really have And also that's a really fantastic way To communicate with the listeners About things that are going on At the station in general And elections and so forth But please
[10:45.020 --> 10:51.500]  explore those opportunities to further participate in the radio station and the broader community here.
[10:51.680 --> 10:55.360]  Now I'm going to hand things over to Alex to take us into the next segment.
[10:57.100 --> 10:58.560]  Yeah, well, thank you, Emmanuel.
[10:58.700 --> 10:59.260]  I appreciate it.
[10:59.320 --> 11:10.780]  I think, you know, this was something to which I had alluded to earlier and coming on the wake of conviction that we saw yesterday of Derek Shelvin.
[11:10.780 --> 11:22.160]  And I think today's guest is going to be particularly well received because it is really my sincere pleasure to introduce a very special guest this evening, Jason Long.
[11:22.740 --> 11:26.440]  Jason is a Chicago native and a graduate of the Lambda School.
[11:26.820 --> 11:35.300]  Now, Jason and I met a few months ago when he had demoed something to the Human Rights First Technology Advisory Board, of which I'm a member.
[11:35.300 --> 11:45.480]  And what Jason demoed was pretty damned incredible, timely, and I have to say this, unfortunately, useful.
[11:46.000 --> 11:49.580]  And what I'm talking about is something by the name of Blue Witness.
[11:49.900 --> 12:07.360]  It's a machine learning system designed by Human Rights First and developed by the Lambda School to scour social media and examine video content with the intention of using high-level analytics to identify nothing short of police using excessive force.
[12:08.140 --> 12:13.180]  Jason led the Blue Witness Project with Human Rights First and the Lambda School, Jason Long.
[12:13.520 --> 12:15.640]  It's our pleasure to have you here and welcome to Off the Hook.
[12:16.880 --> 12:17.320]  Thanks, Alex.
[12:17.440 --> 12:17.860]  Glad to be here.
[12:18.680 --> 12:22.340]  So, Jason, tell us about this Blue Witness Project.
[12:22.340 --> 12:24.120]  I hope I described it accurately.
[12:24.660 --> 12:30.340]  Tell us the history of it and where things stand and how this project came to be.
[12:30.480 --> 12:37.400]  I'm sure today is probably the most timely day I think it could be to have you on the show.
[12:38.860 --> 12:42.900]  Yeah, it's really a really interesting journey for this project.
[12:43.420 --> 12:46.760]  And it's kind of funny it's come full circle today of all days.
[12:46.760 --> 12:52.460]  The catalyst for this was really the death of George Floyd to begin with.
[12:52.880 --> 13:07.500]  And the renewed conversation that exists around police's interaction with the community, police incidences of excessive force, and police being held accountable for their conduct.
[13:08.320 --> 13:15.160]  So Human Rights First started talks with Lambda School around that time, and the project finally kicked off last August.
[13:15.800 --> 13:24.280]  It's actually, if I'm not mistaken, at this point, the longest-running project in the labs program, which is really cool to see.
[13:25.060 --> 13:29.160]  And, you know, we started with a vision of what do we want to do?
[13:29.800 --> 13:37.680]  We want to be a part of kind of closing this cycle of violence against the citizens of our country.
[13:38.200 --> 13:53.760]  And one of the best ways to do that is to get people informed, let them know just how relevant of an issue this is, and then start to get people talking about, okay, now that we see how big and how pervasive this is, let's do something about it.
[13:54.760 --> 13:55.400]  Wow.
[13:55.680 --> 13:56.720]  Jason, this is Emmanuel here.
[13:57.000 --> 13:59.340]  You're the engineering lead of this project.
[13:59.880 --> 14:09.160]  And it's, as Alex was describing, capable of looking at video content and identifying excessive force.
[14:09.260 --> 14:09.920]  How does it do that?
[14:11.120 --> 14:15.960]  So the current model actually is a text-based model using natural language processing.
[14:15.960 --> 14:26.740]  And what it does is we crawl Reddit and Twitter and other social media outlets to look at language patterns that are indicative of police, first police presence.
[14:27.160 --> 14:31.000]  And then we categorize what kind of presence was there.
[14:31.540 --> 14:35.760]  A very interesting project is being worked on by one of my colleagues from Lambda School, Sean Backstrom.
[14:35.920 --> 14:58.480]  He's actually working on a project called SurveyEye, which will be another layer of analysis where it will actually parse and tag different incidents who's committing what activity and parse that into a digestible format to help better pick apart these incidents and really understand what's going on.
[14:58.840 --> 15:12.580]  Because a lot of what's really difficult in these situations is, you know, we have the account of the officers involved, we have the account of the observers, and then, you know, human nature and reality lies somewhere in the middle.
[15:12.780 --> 15:17.900]  And it's... the real difficulty is trying to find where reality actually is.
[15:19.060 --> 15:20.860]  Well, yeah, I think that's definitely true.
[15:20.980 --> 15:24.220]  I mean, without video, there would have been no trial.
[15:24.400 --> 15:26.000]  I think that's certain.
[15:26.220 --> 15:29.760]  And how many other cases have there been where video has told the story?
[15:29.760 --> 15:38.780]  So, with regards to Blue Witness, the video part of this is a project that's still in the works.
[15:38.780 --> 15:39.280]  Is that correct?
[15:40.020 --> 15:40.740]  That's correct.
[15:40.860 --> 15:50.160]  Yeah, we're constantly looking at how we can gather more information, how we can analyze it better, and how we can present it in meaningful ways.
[15:50.560 --> 16:01.060]  Because a lot of what I feel has been a barrier to action is everything, you know, data studies feel very inapproachable by the average person.
[16:01.220 --> 16:06.520]  And so, how can we take this very complex situation and make it digestible by the average person?
[16:07.020 --> 16:11.080]  So, can you tell us something about the text-based aspect to all this?
[16:11.280 --> 16:13.180]  Give us some examples of what you're able to find.
[16:15.680 --> 16:21.780]  So, it's a constantly evolving model that, like I said, is based off of natural language processing.
[16:21.780 --> 16:25.300]  And the first aspect that we look for is, were police present?
[16:26.160 --> 16:33.180]  And then we use a use of force continuum that has been established by the National Institute for Justice.
[16:33.780 --> 16:40.000]  And we look at different markers and try to determine what kind of force has been used.
[16:40.380 --> 16:45.040]  For example, Level 1 force on their continuum just means police presence.
[16:45.360 --> 16:46.220]  Totally fine.
[16:46.360 --> 16:49.520]  Police are present at, you know, any number of incidents around the world.
[16:49.700 --> 16:50.520]  Not a problem.
[16:50.520 --> 16:54.120]  Then we start looking at Level 2 incidents where minor force is used.
[16:54.260 --> 16:55.020]  So, it's been detained.
[16:55.320 --> 17:06.760]  Up to and including what we consider lethal force, which is the use of a weapon or unreasonable restraint, such as what we saw in the Derek Chauvin case.
[17:08.040 --> 17:20.820]  All of those incidents, once they're classified by the NLP model, are then reviewed by a human just to make sure that we are giving our data the highest level of integrity possible.
[17:21.060 --> 17:25.900]  And then it becomes part of a larger database that is displayed in a number of ways.
[17:26.080 --> 17:28.780]  We have graphical representation on a map.
[17:29.020 --> 17:33.100]  We have categorizations by the category, by time.
[17:33.620 --> 17:43.380]  Pretty much any way we can think of shaping this data and twisting it around, we try to present it in a graphical context that makes sense at a glance.
[17:47.080 --> 17:57.080]  You know, Jason, you know, we all know, I think in this country, and I think the whole world knows, that there is a problem with police using excessive force.
[17:57.270 --> 18:01.220]  I mean, we know it happens every day, but we really just don't know how frequently...
[18:01.220 --> 18:03.510]  It does happen around the country, right?
[18:03.510 --> 18:06.030]  I mean, does it happen 10 times?
[18:06.100 --> 18:07.180]  Does it happen 100 times?
[18:07.360 --> 18:13.010]  So the visualization of this data, the visualization of this problem seems to me like a real innovation.
[18:13.120 --> 18:23.600]  And you're using technology, you're using NLP, natural language processing, to identify where these things are happening, where these terrible uses of excessive force are occurring.
[18:23.840 --> 18:25.790]  And what have you seen?
[18:25.880 --> 18:27.770]  Have you seen any patterns with this visualization?
[18:27.960 --> 18:32.320]  And tell us a little bit more about what the visual aspect of this looks like.
[18:32.320 --> 18:44.780]  Because, you know, from what I saw, it was pretty amazing being able to essentially look at a map of the United States and see exactly where there are large problems and where there are small problems when it comes to excessive force.
[18:44.920 --> 18:49.080]  And also seeing that this is not a problem that is in the South.
[18:49.220 --> 18:50.440]  It's not a problem that's in the North.
[18:50.900 --> 18:57.060]  What I could see based on the data from Blue Witness itself was that this is a problem across the United States.
[18:58.580 --> 18:59.020]  100%.
[18:59.980 --> 19:07.800]  You know, if we look at the heat map of incidents that are in the current database, they touch the 48 contiguous states.
[19:08.320 --> 19:14.320]  We have minimal data about Alaska and Hawaii at this point, but also data in Puerto Rico as well.
[19:14.700 --> 19:17.560]  It involves communities large and small.
[19:18.020 --> 19:23.120]  There's obviously a larger number of incidents in more populated areas.
[19:23.120 --> 19:26.920]  I think that's just a function of more people equal more interactions.
[19:27.440 --> 19:29.060]  Those interactions will be problematic.
[19:30.500 --> 19:35.100]  So in that regard, it really just kind of solidifies that things are assumptions that existed.
[19:35.560 --> 19:39.740]  But some of the conclusions that are being drawn now are really interesting.
[19:40.040 --> 19:44.880]  For example, one of the biggest cities of incidents in our database is Portland.
[19:45.200 --> 19:46.740]  Well, why might that be?
[19:46.900 --> 19:51.220]  Obviously, you know, we all know what took place in Portland last year and all of that.
[19:51.220 --> 20:02.840]  So we're starting to see correlations between events, them being, getting brought to the national stage, and then the fallout of that process.
[20:02.960 --> 20:09.280]  Because that's really where a lot of things are happening is, you know, an incident happens, we start talking about it, people start to take action.
[20:09.520 --> 20:16.640]  And then we have this, these little mini explosions of reactions on both sides, both the civilian and police side.
[20:16.640 --> 20:22.800]  And it's very apparent that when these explosions happen, that things are getting out of hand.
[20:23.220 --> 20:26.260]  And in a lot of ways, the situation is compounding.
[20:26.360 --> 20:27.040]  It's not getting better.
[20:29.860 --> 20:37.220]  That is, you know, you know, really fascinating, especially to hear about Portland and these cities where, you know, this is exploding.
[20:37.460 --> 20:43.040]  You know, let's talk a little bit about the data component of this, too, and the collaborative aspect.
[20:43.380 --> 20:47.500]  You know, where do things stand now with Human Rights First and the project?
[20:47.980 --> 20:57.200]  You know, I got a short update on this earlier today in a meeting with Welton Chang, the CTO of Human Rights First, whom we've also had on the show over the last couple of months.
[20:57.200 --> 20:59.200]  I think at the end of 2020, we had Welton on.
[21:00.760 --> 21:07.620]  And this data, you know, is it going to be available to others to use as well and to build upon?
[21:08.580 --> 21:09.020]  Okay.
[21:09.380 --> 21:09.580]  Yeah.
[21:09.860 --> 21:15.200]  So currently, the current team is working on a large focus on data refinement.
[21:15.900 --> 21:25.140]  We were just at a meeting yesterday talking about how we can kind of fill in some of the blanks in our data sets because when we automate the processing, there's going to be some holes.
[21:25.580 --> 21:28.980]  And we're talking about some ways that we can loop back out and fill those holes.
[21:31.120 --> 21:35.060]  We 100% intend to make that data and keep that data publicly available.
[21:35.760 --> 21:47.520]  In fact, one of the aspects of the project that is available right now is any user can go to the site, they can select a date range, and they can download a CSV version of the database.
[21:48.120 --> 22:04.460]  One of the things that has been very important and central to this project from the beginning is presenting the data in an accurate and unbiased way, really making sure that people can see the full story without a bunch of agenda layered on.
[22:04.620 --> 22:18.380]  And so we made sure that the data set is available for scrutiny one way or the other and open for discussion because, you know, this is not a series of events that are just written in history and we move on.
[22:18.600 --> 22:22.400]  This is really an ongoing saga that requires discussion.
[22:22.960 --> 22:28.320]  And, you know, how we handle this will really define our society for generations to come.
[22:29.710 --> 22:31.220]  I completely agree.
[22:31.380 --> 22:43.900]  And talking about this going forward will be so fascinating and interesting to see as this project evolves and progresses to see how that data set changes, to see if things are getting better, to see if they're getting worse.
[22:44.160 --> 22:51.780]  And with that in mind, and I know we only have a couple more minutes with you, Jason, before you have to peel off, but what about the historical component of this?
[22:51.880 --> 22:57.800]  Obviously, there's a major historical problem with the use of excessive force by the police in this country.
[22:58.850 --> 23:01.800]  Going way back, you know, to the 19th century, what about historical data?
[23:01.860 --> 23:10.620]  Are you able to troll or scour social media and other sources to identify historical instances of police using excessive force as well?
[23:11.720 --> 23:14.580]  So that is something that we have talked about.
[23:15.040 --> 23:24.600]  And it's, frankly, it's a little challenging because, you know, we have conversations around this subject quite often now, far too often, in fact.
[23:25.240 --> 23:29.420]  But as we go further back, information becomes more and more disparate.
[23:29.720 --> 23:32.260]  It wasn't something that was necessarily receiving focus.
[23:32.540 --> 23:33.860]  People weren't posting about it.
[23:34.760 --> 23:43.300]  And so we definitely want to endeavor to circle that in and try to, you know, get as complete a picture as possible.
[23:43.540 --> 23:55.800]  But what I think will be really interesting going forward is to start to tie some of these instances of force being used and looping them back to outcomes.
[23:56.100 --> 24:10.920]  You know, not just identifying where the oversteps occur, but what's being done about them, you know, and making sure that we're holding our officers and our decision makers and government responsible for the conduct of these officers.
[24:11.440 --> 24:31.620]  You know, that's such an interesting point because, you know, just a couple of weeks ago, New York City had made transparent its database about, I think, from the CCRB, the Civilian Complaint Review Board, and we talked about this quite a bit on the air in terms of the outcomes of complaints against the police.
[24:31.840 --> 24:34.080]  You know, this is data now that is being made publicly available.
[24:34.260 --> 24:40.100]  Hopefully, other municipalities will make that data available so that it can be matched and correlated with your own data set.
[24:40.260 --> 24:44.300]  That, again, seeing the deltas and that are going to be absolutely fascinating.
[24:44.520 --> 24:56.280]  And one thing you mentioned, Jason, which I think was super critical is that people can go to the site right now and start using it and downloading CSVs or comma-separated value files of this particular data.
[24:56.700 --> 25:01.140]  Journalists can do this, judges, lawyers, concerned citizens.
[25:01.540 --> 25:02.440]  So how do they do this?
[25:02.520 --> 25:06.200]  What's the site that they have to go to in order to start using Blue Witness?
[25:06.760 --> 25:08.320]  So I just want to add a caveat.
[25:08.500 --> 25:10.200]  This is a site currently under production.
[25:10.240 --> 25:17.460]  So, you know, please give some grace to the devs who do really great work if something gets slightly broken.
[25:17.680 --> 25:21.680]  But the site is available at a.humanrightsfirst.dev.
[25:22.840 --> 25:27.380]  So a.humanrightsfirst.dev using the new gtld.dev.
[25:27.500 --> 25:28.160]  That's great.
[25:28.760 --> 25:30.940]  Yeah, that's where I snagged my screenshot earlier.
[25:31.120 --> 25:33.060]  Jason, if I could just ask one more question.
[25:33.900 --> 25:37.360]  Forgive me if it's asked before because I'm kind of distracted here.
[25:37.800 --> 25:39.500]  But how did you get into this?
[25:39.600 --> 25:41.400]  What is your technical background?
[25:41.860 --> 25:49.640]  And is there something maybe you could say to people that also have a technical background and an interest in pursuing justice of this sort?
[25:52.060 --> 25:59.880]  So when I became involved with Blue Witness way before it even had a name, I was a technical team lead at Lambda School.
[26:00.220 --> 26:03.560]  I was going to be leading a team working on something and I had no idea what.
[26:04.120 --> 26:15.220]  And the list of projects was put before us and we got to kind of pick what we were passionate about or interested in and I saw what this project was going to be about and I was instantly hooked.
[26:15.300 --> 26:16.500]  I had to be a part of this.
[26:17.620 --> 26:21.560]  A little backstory, I grew up a poor black kid from the south side of Chicago.
[26:22.640 --> 26:25.180]  Most of my interactions with the police have not been pleasant.
[26:25.540 --> 26:35.920]  I've seen way worse interactions go on with my friends and family around me and just to have an opportunity to have the potential of impact was just something I couldn't resist.
[26:36.780 --> 26:43.920]  So that's why I begged and pleaded to get on this project and I want to thank Welton for keeping me involved in it for as long as he has.
[26:46.140 --> 26:48.940]  I want to say this to anyone who has a technical background or not.
[26:49.220 --> 26:59.060]  If this is a subject that you are passionate about, there are lots of organizations that would love your help, your input, your feedback, your voice.
[26:59.220 --> 26:59.940]  They matter.
[27:00.840 --> 27:07.740]  And so regardless of what skills you feel you do or don't have, if you want to contribute, please reach out to me on Twitter.
[27:07.860 --> 27:12.200]  I know lots of people who are in this space and would love to hear what you have to say.
[27:12.360 --> 27:13.620]  And what's your Twitter handle?
[27:14.440 --> 27:17.540]  I can be found at JLONG5795.
[27:18.500 --> 27:19.400]  Okay, great.
[27:19.780 --> 27:21.560]  Jason, thank you so much for everything you're doing.
[27:21.680 --> 27:24.020]  It truly is inspirational and best of luck.
[27:24.780 --> 27:25.440]  Thank you.
[27:26.500 --> 27:32.480]  All right, it's Jason Long, the engineering lead for the project called Blue Witness.
[27:33.920 --> 27:35.420]  Fascinating stuff, Alex, don't you think?
[27:37.420 --> 27:38.100]  No doubt.
[27:38.460 --> 27:47.820]  And, you know, what I think is, it's almost emotional, I think, to just hear about this today, too, because it's an embodiment of so much.
[27:47.920 --> 27:50.640]  It's an embodiment of what the country went through over the last year.
[27:50.640 --> 27:58.320]  And it truly is the collaborative hacker spirit at work in Project Blue Witness here, right?
[27:58.420 --> 28:19.880]  I mean, you've got a technical school coming together with a human rights advocacy organization, Human Rights First, putting programmers and advocates together and focusing on a problem that has been a thorn in the side and a notable stain on the human rights tapestry of this country for well over a hundred years,
[28:20.060 --> 28:24.660]  using technology and collaboration and sharing that knowledge and that data.
[28:24.820 --> 28:34.880]  Sharing that data is really, really important to combat this problem, to take it down, to measure it, to visualize it, to let people know it's not just in the big cities.
[28:34.900 --> 28:36.220]  It's happening in Kansas.
[28:36.220 --> 28:37.320]  It's happening in Georgia.
[28:37.480 --> 28:38.360]  It's happening all over the place.
[28:38.500 --> 28:45.940]  If you go to a.humanrightsfirst.dev, you'll be able to play around with that visualization map, and it is really, really cool.
[28:47.660 --> 28:51.280]  cool is a, I guess, is a weird word to describe it.
[28:51.480 --> 28:55.300]  It's a cool system to visualize a terrible problem.
[28:55.480 --> 29:08.560]  Well, I think, yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head, because we always, as techies, we always like to describe things as cool, even though what it is that we are talking about is definitely not cool and shouldn't have to be a problem in the first place.
[29:08.960 --> 29:12.740]  But if it is a problem, let's have a hacker solution.
[29:12.900 --> 29:17.140]  By the way, we know there are some transmission issues at the station.
[29:17.780 --> 29:24.760]  The full interview can be heard online at WBAI.org or at 2600.com.
[29:24.760 --> 29:26.920]  Later on, we post the entire show.
[29:27.260 --> 29:29.840]  But that was incredible.
[29:30.040 --> 29:30.840]  That was simply amazing.
[29:30.960 --> 29:31.400]  Rob, go ahead.
[29:32.580 --> 29:40.420]  Yeah, this is a great example of what's known as open source intelligence, or OSINT, or OSINT, however you want to say that.
[29:40.420 --> 29:53.060]  And what that refers to is basically using overt, publicly available sources and gathering the data that's made available there and using it to accomplish your goals.
[29:53.100 --> 30:04.100]  And in this case, we know that a machine cannot yet look at a video of, say, police brutality and judge whether the policeman is using excessive force or what's going on.
[30:04.100 --> 30:30.580]  But the human element of people talking about the video, people discussing the video on social media, on forums and things like that, and the fact that this can pull that data down, making use of the human element, it's a really interesting and a really good way to apply the hacker mindset and the hacker skills to this problem and address it in a way that makes it easier for everyone to get the
[30:30.580 --> 30:32.240]  full picture of what's going on.
[30:32.420 --> 30:36.060]  I really have to take my hat off to this project and everyone involved.
[30:36.240 --> 30:36.840]  Yes, Alex.
[30:37.960 --> 30:50.200]  The other thing that I think really bears mentioning too, and it's a good follow-on from Rob's comment, is that nowhere in Jason's discussion with us did he mention the commercialization of this.
[30:50.440 --> 30:51.540]  It's not about money.
[30:51.640 --> 30:53.000]  This is a project of passion.
[30:53.140 --> 30:54.440]  This is a project of necessity.
[30:55.020 --> 31:00.460]  He's doing it because of what he experienced and what he saw and what he knows this country is going through.
[31:00.800 --> 31:10.080]  He isn't using machine learning and training these algorithms to detect this so that he could make trades faster on exchange-traded funds.
[31:10.700 --> 31:15.840]  There's no monetary value inherent in this particular type of project.
[31:15.960 --> 31:18.440]  He doesn't plan on selling it to municipalities or journalists.
[31:18.680 --> 31:19.720]  It's out there.
[31:20.000 --> 31:24.380]  And what Jason Long said was, you can go to the site right now and start getting the data from it.
[31:24.460 --> 31:28.040]  I mean, this is an incredibly, I think, fascinating project.
[31:28.240 --> 31:46.680]  And I really think that we should continue to track this in the months and years ahead because it's something that can make a real measurable difference in this country and hopefully take a chunk of this excessive force out of commission.
[31:47.400 --> 31:51.680]  Yeah, and you know, you don't even have to have a technical background to have a good idea.
[31:51.980 --> 32:01.020]  You know, maybe you can come up with an idea for something that could address a problem or that would be a great service to have, but you have no idea how to actually make it happen.
[32:01.020 --> 32:09.500]  But simply vocalizing that and having the right people hear it, that might be enough, you know, and we need to do that more.
[32:10.800 --> 32:21.880]  Yeah, and again, to Jason's point that he made towards the end of our discussion was that, look, you know, you have value and if you want to get involved in these types of projects, you know, reach out to him, reach out to others.
[32:22.340 --> 32:27.800]  There's a lot of people within your orbit that are going to be connected to human rights advocates or other advocacy organizations.
[32:27.800 --> 32:31.360]  There are places where you can connect with others, make a difference.
[32:31.540 --> 32:36.240]  You don't have to be a wizard with Python or any kind of programming language to do it.
[32:36.660 --> 32:43.340]  Sometimes it's just the germ of an idea that can make a real measurable difference in terms of whether a project gets off the ground or not.
[32:43.580 --> 32:49.520]  I feel we should also mention something else that's happening with our friends over at Distributed Denial Secrets.
[32:50.600 --> 32:52.060]  Who has info on that?
[32:52.180 --> 32:54.840]  There was a release just very recently.
[32:55.140 --> 32:56.280]  I think it's Chicago-based, right?
[33:00.180 --> 33:01.840]  Rob, did you know something about this?
[33:02.080 --> 33:03.960]  I figured one of you knew something about this.
[33:06.260 --> 33:07.380]  I do not.
[33:07.480 --> 33:08.550]  I do not have it in front of me.
[33:08.550 --> 33:11.100]  Okay, we discussed it on the list before, so I guess we all have amnesia.
[33:11.700 --> 33:27.160]  In light of the killing of Adam Toledo, Distributed Denial Secrets has released tens of thousands of emails from the chief risk officer, FOIA officer, deputy press secretary, and deputy mayor for public safety of the city of Chicago.
[33:27.900 --> 33:33.940]  Twitter, however, is censoring the links, so you can't link to it on Twitter, but if you go to ddossecrets.com, you can get more information.
[33:34.460 --> 33:36.360]  And I should point out ddossecrets.com.
[33:36.440 --> 33:41.740]  Be careful what you type because, you know, you're tempted to type two S's, one for DDoS, one for Secrets.
[33:41.860 --> 33:42.240]  Don't do that.
[33:42.360 --> 33:43.220]  Type one S.
[33:44.300 --> 33:46.240]  ddossecrets.com, and that'll get you to the site.
[33:47.620 --> 33:49.840]  Yeah, or just ddossecrets.
[33:51.280 --> 33:53.360]  Yeah, okay, if you want to say it that way, go ahead.
[33:54.920 --> 34:00.340]  But another great organization of people that are looking for justice through technology.
[34:01.680 --> 34:12.340]  Well, and also, you know, we had distributed denial secrets on the show, I think it was only just a matter of weeks ago, and they were absolutely fantastic guests.
[34:12.780 --> 34:29.920]  And in terms of working against police brutality, you know, and excessive force, or even just excessive funding to certain police departments and whatnot, they were, I think, the prime conduit for the Blue Leaks database, which were essentially exfiltrated data,
[34:30.080 --> 34:46.360]  emails, et cetera, from police departments, and I think most notably fusion centers, which are the hybrids of, or rather the children of intelligence operations together with law enforcement, putting those two things together, which is going to be also known as a fusion center.
[34:46.460 --> 34:49.880]  And so they've been really at the forefront of this as well.
[34:50.100 --> 35:04.200]  So I think it really was a, I think these two shows, if you're listening to them in a podcast form, I think it would be great to listen to the Distributed Denial of Secrets show that we did a couple of weeks ago, and this Blue Witness show, because there's,
[35:04.320 --> 35:08.180]  I think, a lot of information on this show between the two of them.
[35:08.180 --> 35:16.200]  getting back to the topic of hackers using their, the unique way of thinking to solve problems.
[35:16.360 --> 35:19.820]  There are so many problems that we're faced with every single day.
[35:20.040 --> 35:26.940]  If you watch the news, you just see all of these issues that keep coming up that never seem to get solved.
[35:27.480 --> 35:36.340]  And we sort of tell ourselves as, as a nation, that there's nothing we can do, that there's no way to, to fix this.
[35:36.340 --> 35:37.520]  It's just the way it is.
[35:37.640 --> 35:39.300]  And I think that's really, really unhealthy.
[35:39.960 --> 35:58.610]  And I think it's something that we as hackers are, are positioned to, to work against, you know, to get past that somehow, because, you know, we always, and I mean, we, as, as a huge, huge group of people throughout the world, we're always doing things that are considered impossible.
[35:59.280 --> 36:17.740]  You know, and if I, if I limit it to just us, people in this virtual room, well, getting on the air, that's, that's impossible, you know, we've done it, sort of, getting on a radio station in New York City, in the middle of the FM dial, having that radio station in the middle of the FM dial,
[36:17.980 --> 36:26.460]  it all requires a certain spirit of being told something isn't possible, and then saying, let's do it anyway.
[36:27.170 --> 36:41.170]  You know, when, when, when we wanted to have a conference for the first time, back in early 90s, I'd been to conferences overseas, been to a couple in the Netherlands, and obviously the, the society is, is, is different there.
[36:41.320 --> 36:46.880]  Things were easier, it was, it was more open, and everybody told me it was not possible to do it here.
[36:46.960 --> 36:47.630]  You couldn't do it.
[36:47.780 --> 36:48.420]  It wouldn't work.
[36:49.630 --> 36:57.000]  Well, not only did it work, but we did in the middle of Manhattan, you know, exactly where you would think it would be impossible to do something like that.
[36:57.540 --> 37:17.550]  Um, I think every single project I've been involved in, whether it's, you know, walking in the door of a radio station for the first time, um, sending out a newsletter for the first time, um, pursuing a certain line of study that wasn't guaranteed to,
[37:17.720 --> 37:19.800]  to make me money after I graduated.
[37:20.000 --> 37:24.920]  These are all things that I was told wasn't possible, and I shouldn't do it.
[37:25.110 --> 37:29.380]  And if I had listened to that, then I guess I'd be living a nice safe life now someplace.
[37:29.880 --> 37:31.220]  But I wouldn't be doing any of this.
[37:31.320 --> 37:32.570]  I wouldn't be talking about any of this.
[37:32.780 --> 37:40.260]  And I just wonder how many other, um, avenues are open to us if we just decide to do it anyway.
[37:41.520 --> 37:43.820]  Yeah, be careful what you settle for in life.
[37:44.020 --> 37:50.720]  You really should be unreasonable with the world and yourself in as many ways as you can possibly muster.
[37:50.860 --> 37:54.130]  Well, unreasonable, I mean, I think it's, yeah, I know what you're saying.
[37:55.330 --> 38:04.880]  But it might appear to be unreasonable, but actually it's, it's the most reasonable thing there is, I think, to, um, to just plunge into doing something that you think is a good idea.
[38:05.440 --> 38:07.960]  And when you believe it's not a good idea, that's when you stop.
[38:08.320 --> 38:15.700]  But if you believe in yourself, you believe that, um, you might have an answer, don't listen to people that say, can't be done, it's impossible, you're doing it wrong.
[38:17.370 --> 38:19.630]  They don't have your spirit.
[38:20.020 --> 38:20.740]  You've got that.
[38:20.880 --> 38:21.940]  You're the only person that has that.
[38:22.590 --> 38:25.860]  So, so push ahead, push ahead and, and, and do it anyway.
[38:26.730 --> 38:32.150]  And maybe you'll succeed, maybe you'll fail, but either way you're going to learn either way, you're going to move on to the next thing.
[38:32.460 --> 38:32.860]  Yes, Gila.
[38:33.500 --> 38:34.440]  No, I agree.
[38:34.590 --> 38:44.240]  I think that there is a tendency certainly now how to define impossible as not profitable.
[38:44.590 --> 38:52.960]  And I think the whole concept of so many people are like, oh, you like baking cupcakes, you should open up a cupcake bakery.
[38:53.170 --> 38:59.670]  This whole thing of taking this thing that people love and monetizing it and turning it into a side hustle.
[38:59.820 --> 39:07.050]  Like if you're not making money off of it, it's not worth doing, which I think is completely antithetical to the hacker mindset.
[39:07.050 --> 39:15.110]  And I think also, as Alex pointed out earlier, a very impressive piece of this whole Blue Witness project is that they're not trying to sell it.
[39:15.300 --> 39:17.070]  They just want to get this information out there.
[39:17.170 --> 39:17.980]  It is important.
[39:18.240 --> 39:19.360]  It is crucial.
[39:19.700 --> 39:23.780]  And I think keeping that in mind is a really important piece of it.
[39:23.860 --> 39:31.220]  I think the hacker mindset is do it, make it happen, make it happen because it feeds your soul and or your mind or whatever.
[39:31.780 --> 39:42.000]  And I think that if we can get away from this societal pressure of it has to make a billion dollars or it's not worth doing, I think that's also a really important thing to keep in mind.
[39:42.000 --> 39:43.300]  Yes, that's exactly it.
[39:43.420 --> 39:49.040]  And, you know, if somebody asks you what your business model is, that to me is an immediate turnoff because they're not getting it.
[39:49.130 --> 39:52.550]  They're not getting the point that, you know, you're doing something out of passion.
[39:52.700 --> 39:57.670]  You're doing something to see, as every hacker does, you're doing something to see what happens when you do that.
[39:58.090 --> 40:01.090]  And maybe something amazing will happen, maybe nothing at all will happen.
[40:01.610 --> 40:05.000]  But it's a stepping stone to the next thing that you decide to do.
[40:05.110 --> 40:05.340]  Alex?
[40:06.540 --> 40:06.860]  Yeah.
[40:07.150 --> 40:26.170]  And bouncing off Gila's, I think, you know, absolutely, you know, on the ballpoint here, which is the, you know, part of, I think, the problem here is that we live now in this bubble of social media, where there is essentially a digital case system as well.
[40:26.360 --> 40:29.840]  And people are made to feel as if they don't matter.
[40:30.150 --> 40:37.130]  You know, that their voices aren't being heard, either algorithmically or visually, because they may not have a blue check next to their name.
[40:37.700 --> 40:39.000]  And this is...
[40:39.000 --> 40:41.130]  Those damn blue checks, I swear to God.
[40:41.700 --> 40:48.000]  I tell you, you know, it really is, you know, there's a social hierarchy when it comes to this influencer status, right?
[40:48.090 --> 40:49.400]  Being a verified user.
[40:49.400 --> 40:53.610]  There's all kinds of scams that go along with being a verified user as well.
[40:53.720 --> 41:04.050]  But, you know, part of all of this is to make sure that the little people, the non-influencers, the non-verified people are made to feel as if perhaps they don't matter and they're put in their place.
[41:04.200 --> 41:04.720]  That's us.
[41:04.980 --> 41:13.780]  Everything you just said is directed at us because not a single one of us, not a single one of the projects that we were involved in, has earned that blue check.
[41:13.780 --> 41:19.720]  Even though we easily qualify by their own standards, Twitter has decided, you're not relevant enough.
[41:19.720 --> 41:21.110]  You're not enough of an influencer.
[41:21.650 --> 41:31.630]  And, you know, we saw this recently in the whole Memphis debacle, where if you said Memphis for some reason, Twitter banned you, it was some kind of programming error.
[41:32.050 --> 41:35.700]  And the people who had blue checks, they were immune from that.
[41:35.900 --> 41:37.900]  They were considered a little bit higher up.
[41:38.000 --> 41:39.300]  So it's like royalty.
[41:39.610 --> 41:41.150]  And I hate royalty in real life.
[41:41.240 --> 41:42.380]  Why should I embrace it online?
[41:42.980 --> 41:43.860]  Well, I agree.
[41:44.260 --> 42:02.720]  But part of this, the blue witness system and what they're doing is combating this digital case system in which we're living as well, because they're finding and scouring social media, looking at the actual text that ordinary people, not just the blue checks or the verified users or the influencers put out on their own accounts.
[42:02.720 --> 42:25.200]  They're looking at all of the texts that are associated with these videos, finding it, categorizing it, archiving it, and amplifying it as well, making sure that that data is heard, making sure that that person's voice is heard, that that notation of excessive force used by a police officer is memorialized in one way or another forever.
[42:25.740 --> 42:29.880]  And I think, see, this is a way to fight back against that type of case system.
[42:30.150 --> 42:32.740]  Rob and Gila, you're sitting right next to each other, and I see a hand.
[42:32.740 --> 42:33.780]  I don't know whose hand it is.
[42:34.000 --> 42:34.630]  Oh, it's Rob's hand.
[42:34.700 --> 42:34.880]  Okay.
[42:35.520 --> 42:37.880]  You might want to just spread out a little bit so I can tell you apart.
[42:38.020 --> 42:38.130]  Okay.
[42:38.590 --> 42:39.840]  I'll use the other hand.
[42:39.840 --> 42:57.700]  But the hacker mindset being directed to this sort of thing, another really important aspect of that, and something that I definitely see in the work of our guests today and people like MBS and everyone else whose work we talk about on this program, is it's not just the making it happen.
[42:57.700 --> 42:58.860]  It's not just the implementation.
[42:59.280 --> 43:02.360]  Part of the hacker mindset is seeing how things are.
[43:03.130 --> 43:04.610]  Like, I tell people I'm an activist.
[43:04.610 --> 43:05.500]  I'm also a hacker.
[43:05.800 --> 43:08.840]  I'm not a hacker because I'm an activist.
[43:09.070 --> 43:21.860]  I'm an activist because the hacker part of me sees how things are around me and questions whether things need to be such a way or whether things can't be improved, whether things can't be made better, whether there might not be a better way of doing things,
[43:22.020 --> 43:26.650]  even if it's out of, you know, out of the scope of whatever who was writing the manual said.
[43:26.960 --> 43:36.220]  And I think that's a very important part of it is just keeping your eyes open, keeping your mind open to possibly different ways things could be done, ways they could be improved.
[43:36.220 --> 43:42.220]  Even the very fact that you might be doing something differently than everyone tells you, well, that's the way it's done.
[43:43.480 --> 43:45.220]  That's a huge part of it.
[43:45.400 --> 43:49.000]  And, you know, we can't undervalue that part of it.
[43:49.140 --> 43:49.980]  Yes, well said.
[43:50.120 --> 43:52.200]  And I'm sorry, you don't have to sit on the opposite ends of the couch.
[43:52.540 --> 43:53.900]  You can get closer to the guy.
[43:53.980 --> 43:56.700]  I just couldn't tell which one of you was raising your hand there.
[43:56.840 --> 44:01.740]  I want to read something that our friend Voltaire also contributed to this topic on our list.
[44:01.740 --> 44:07.100]  I like the idea of discussing how the hacker mindset can help in these types of situations.
[44:08.280 --> 44:16.680]  The leak that we were discussing before is a type of hacker mindset applied to seemingly intractable social issues.
[44:17.980 --> 44:24.480]  For me, it's important to point out that this isn't a shortcut to rat around the hard political social work needed on these issues.
[44:25.080 --> 44:32.020]  They're intractable precisely because the forces lined up against us are so strong, like police, military, corporate profits, etc.
[44:32.480 --> 44:51.360]  It's important that hacktivism distinguish itself from the Silicon Valley-style use of technology to excuse away the need for contentious politics that are antagonistic towards oligarchy, like software vendors claiming that more access to educational software in schools makes up for the disparity in how rich and poor school districts are funded.
[44:51.820 --> 44:58.500]  The one neat trick fallacy is referred to as solutionism.
[44:58.940 --> 45:07.740]  The idea that given the right code, algorithms and robots, technology can solve all of mankind's problems, effectively making life frictionless and trouble-free.
[45:07.860 --> 45:09.760]  And that's something we have to be careful of.
[45:09.920 --> 45:11.740]  We have to avoid that.
[45:11.820 --> 45:12.840]  Thank you, Voltaire, for those words.
[45:13.480 --> 45:14.220]  Well said.
[45:14.620 --> 45:30.480]  And, you know, we're fighting this constant battle inside our own minds, I think, of embracing technology that's really, really cool and becoming enslaved to it and just accepting everything that it does without question.
[45:30.800 --> 45:33.380]  And I've seen people struggle with this.
[45:33.500 --> 45:34.360]  I've struggled with this.
[45:34.920 --> 45:48.920]  I think as hackers, though, we just need to think for ourselves and not worry so much if we get the phrasing exactly right, if we get the ideology exactly right, or if we even get the technology exactly right.
[45:49.220 --> 46:02.540]  You know, in recent weeks, this nation has been roiled by police violence and just the issues and also gun violence, mass shootings everywhere.
[46:03.200 --> 46:18.260]  And these are two issues that we just seem to keep saying to ourselves, it's never going to change because either that's just the way it is or because it's a political party that will stand in the way and prevent you from getting anything done.
[46:20.480 --> 46:27.880]  I've I'm convinced that somewhere in the hacker mindset is a solution to these problems because we think outside the box.
[46:28.040 --> 46:33.200]  Like, for instance, gun control or the issue of gun violence.
[46:34.540 --> 46:36.000]  That has to be solved.
[46:36.260 --> 46:43.140]  And if it's not solved, our nation has a terminal disease because you can't get past this.
[46:43.260 --> 46:49.880]  If you look at the numbers, you look at how how much gun violence there is in this country compared to other countries.
[46:49.880 --> 46:54.420]  And it's it's almost comical how much of an increase it is.
[46:55.080 --> 47:00.380]  And you can have these conversations with people about the founding fathers and the Second Amendment and all that.
[47:00.380 --> 47:00.440]  that.
[47:01.080 --> 47:12.920]  But really, when you when you get down to it, people are gathering guns because they're they want to defend themselves against other people who are gathering guns.
[47:13.060 --> 47:17.620]  So in a way, we can kind of agree that too many guns is the problem.
[47:17.640 --> 47:28.160]  If you can get to that stage, OK, hey, maybe we can we can work on some kind of a solution that doesn't need these things that we will never get, such as Republicans.
[47:28.160 --> 47:33.200]  Well, we're never going to get them to admit that we need to do something.
[47:33.840 --> 47:47.680]  And instead of every single time on television, seeing all the indignation and outrage that never amounts to anything, we need to do something that actually does make a change by using ingenuity.
[47:47.940 --> 47:50.980]  You know, the Second Amendment and Alex, maybe you can help me with this.
[47:51.900 --> 47:56.480]  It refers to the the right to keep and bear arms, correct?
[47:57.700 --> 48:02.460]  And there's that line about the well-regulated militia, which for some reason, everyone seems to ignore.
[48:04.270 --> 48:06.540]  But how do you define arms?
[48:09.460 --> 48:11.920]  Well, of course, a very good question, right?
[48:12.100 --> 48:23.240]  I mean, in the exact phraseology of the Second Amendment is a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, comma, the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
[48:23.320 --> 48:23.440]  Right.
[48:23.780 --> 48:28.520]  So, yeah, you do have, you know, regulated right at the outset of the Second Amendment as well.
[48:29.560 --> 48:39.160]  But, you know, the meaning of regulated there is also somewhat different than I think what we would ordinarily think regulation means as well.
[48:39.220 --> 48:42.080]  In the 18th century, there were regular armies and irregular armies.
[48:42.080 --> 48:44.260]  And perhaps that's what the founders were mentioning.
[48:44.460 --> 48:45.420]  But it was a different world.
[48:45.680 --> 48:47.120]  It was a very different world.
[48:47.880 --> 48:57.100]  You know, this idea that the Constitution is frozen in time in the 18th century is itself a legal fiction that I think is risable.
[48:57.300 --> 48:58.860]  It's comical as well.
[48:59.000 --> 49:04.200]  I mean, look, the Constitution and this country have evolved since the 18th century.
[49:05.040 --> 49:09.260]  And it has evolved through the use of the common law and judicial decisions.
[49:10.120 --> 49:20.400]  And, you know, what arms are and what arms are not, you know, are definitely, you know, is an issue, I think, that is really at the heart of the Second Amendment.
[49:20.500 --> 49:23.540]  Well, my point here, and I'm sorry for rushing you, but we are running out of time.
[49:24.280 --> 49:30.420]  A simple, and this is probably completely crazy and silly, but it's just an example of thinking outside the box.
[49:30.840 --> 49:38.740]  Okay, you know, I think we can agree that a rifle is considered an arm, you know, so is a pistol, so is a knife, you know, things like that.
[49:39.400 --> 49:40.280]  But are bullets?
[49:40.700 --> 49:43.800]  Is there anything in the Constitution that says you have the right to bullets?
[49:44.020 --> 49:45.040]  Or how about this?
[49:45.660 --> 49:50.740]  The Constitution defends your right to keep and bear arms says nothing about firing them.
[49:50.800 --> 50:00.920]  If we make firing a gun a crime every time you fire a gun, well, maybe that'll, that'll make it unpalatable to collect a whole lot of them.
[50:01.000 --> 50:03.880]  If you just want to collect them, hey, I have no problem with people collecting things.
[50:03.920 --> 50:05.980]  I have no problem with people even holding them.
[50:06.460 --> 50:09.240]  And I think most people just have a problem when they start firing them.
[50:09.360 --> 50:28.420]  So if you make that an issue, you kind of do a background around the Constitution there, and maybe you can actually have some common ground with people that agree that firing them is usually bad, unless it's under certain circumstances, and we can have conversations about when that's appropriate.
[50:28.660 --> 50:29.100]  Go ahead, Rob.
[50:29.100 --> 50:29.140]  Rob.
[50:30.500 --> 50:39.200]  One other thing I want to put out there is, you know, the five of us in this virtual room can, can, you know, shoot the breeze about, you know, things that come to mind.
[50:39.360 --> 50:47.020]  But another important part of the hacker mindset is the idea of open source, the idea of collaboration, the idea of we're never going to have all the ideas.
[50:47.200 --> 50:51.920]  And I want to invite our listeners, a lot of you out there consider yourselves part of the hacker community.
[50:52.100 --> 51:03.420]  A lot of you out there don't, but whatever, whatever it is, if you're working If you're working on a project like this, or if you have an idea for a project like this, or if you have questions about the possibility of a project that you think could make the world better in some way,
[51:03.600 --> 51:04.780]  we want to hear about it.
[51:04.880 --> 51:07.760]  Get in touch with us, OTH at 2600.com.
[51:08.160 --> 51:17.640]  And we definitely want to hear about what you're doing, what you're working on, or just the ideas you have that maybe we could be looking at something a little differently than the way we are.
[51:18.020 --> 51:19.280]  So yes, get in touch.
[51:19.460 --> 51:20.420]  We want to hear from you.
[51:20.420 --> 51:27.560]  My idea was get rid of handguns, specifically with public officials like law enforcement.
[51:28.460 --> 51:40.800]  Maybe like, you know, set it up so that the first thing, the only thing they reach for is something that's non-lethal, unless it's a situation that needs to be something bigger that's maybe in a patrol car.
[51:40.880 --> 51:42.880]  See, these are the conversations we need to have.
[51:43.060 --> 51:45.220]  I'm not saying these are the answers.
[51:45.220 --> 51:48.240]  I'm saying this is the dialogue that needs to take place.
[51:48.240 --> 51:49.980]  We are out of time.
[51:50.440 --> 51:52.420]  We'll continue this conversation on Overtime.
[51:52.560 --> 51:53.060]  Go to YouTube.
[51:53.280 --> 51:54.640]  Go to 2600.com.
[51:54.640 --> 51:55.460]  Follow the link there.
[51:55.560 --> 51:56.560]  We'll see you next week.
[51:56.940 --> 51:57.540]  Good night.
[51:59.000 --> 52:01.120]  Did you read the news?
[52:01.640 --> 52:03.420]  I'm a bit confused.
[52:04.080 --> 52:05.920]  The gun fever is bad.
[52:06.580 --> 52:07.520]  The gun fever.
[52:09.540 --> 52:11.000]  Rudeness and the gun.
[52:11.360 --> 52:13.700]  It's the talk of the town.
[52:14.060 --> 52:16.140]  The gun fever is bad.
[52:16.600 --> 52:17.740]  The gun fever.
[52:19.680 --> 52:22.040]  Every time you read the greener star.
[52:22.340 --> 52:23.280]  Man shot dead.
[52:23.480 --> 52:23.900]  All good.
[52:24.020 --> 52:24.560]  Gang at war.
[52:24.840 --> 52:25.420]  It's the fever.
[52:26.600 --> 52:27.940]  The gun fever.
[52:29.500 --> 52:30.720]  The gun fever.
[52:30.720 --> 52:32.340]  The simplest thing is, blam blam blam.
[52:32.480 --> 52:34.700]  What is this in our little island?
[52:34.780 --> 52:35.660]  It's the fever.
[52:36.820 --> 52:38.120]  The gun fever.
[52:39.520 --> 52:42.060]  You can know a rude child.
[52:42.400 --> 52:44.360]  By the way he sets his car.
[52:44.740 --> 52:46.700]  The gun fever is bad.
[52:54.640 --> 52:56.040]  The gun fever.
[52:56.360 --> 52:56.360]  The gun fever.
[52:56.740 --> 52:56.740]  The gun fever.
[52:57.160 --> 52:58.540]  The gun fever.
[52:58.540 --> 52:58.620]  The gun fever.
[52:58.620 --> 52:58.620]  The gun fever.
[53:00.460 --> 53:02.880]  The gun fever.
[53:02.880 --> 53:05.320]  The gun fever.
[53:05.320 --> 53:05.320]  The gun fever.
[53:05.320 --> 53:05.500]  The gun fever.
[53:05.520 --> 53:06.380]  The gun fever.
[53:06.380 --> 53:06.380]  The gun fever.
[53:06.380 --> 53:06.380]  The gun fever.
[53:06.380 --> 53:06.380]  The gun fever.
[53:06.380 --> 53:06.380]  The gun fever.
[53:06.380 --> 53:06.380]  The gun fever.
[53:06.380 --> 53:06.380]  The gun fever.
[53:06.380 --> 53:06.380]  The gun fever.
[53:06.380 --> 53:06.380]  The gun fever.
[53:07.760 --> 53:07.760]  The gun fever.
[53:07.760 --> 53:07.760]  The gun fever.
[53:07.760 --> 53:07.760]  The gun fever.
[53:07.760 --> 53:07.760]  The gun fever.
[53:07.760 --> 53:07.760]  The gun fever.
[53:07.760 --> 53:07.760]  The gun fever.
[53:07.760 --> 53:07.760]  The gun fever.
[53:07.760 --> 53:07.760]  The gun fever.
[53:07.760 --> 53:07.840]  The gun fever.
[53:07.840 --> 53:07.840]  The gun fever.
[53:07.840 --> 53:07.840]  The gun fever.
[53:07.840 --> 53:07.840]  The gun fever.
[53:07.840 --> 53:08.040]  The gun fever.
[53:08.040 --> 53:08.040]  The gun fever.
[53:08.040 --> 53:08.040]  The gun fever.
[53:08.040 --> 53:08.160]  The gun fever.
[53:08.160 --> 53:08.620]  The gun fever.
[53:10.280 --> 53:11.560]  The gun fever.
[53:12.040 --> 53:12.480]  The gun fever.
[53:12.480 --> 53:13.140]  The gun fever.
[53:13.300 --> 53:16.500]  The gun fever.
[53:17.560 --> 53:18.540]  The gun fever.
[53:18.540 --> 53:18.960]  The gun fever.
[53:41.020 --> 53:45.480]  What we gonna do about amendment number two?
[53:45.860 --> 53:48.080]  The gun fever is bad.
[53:50.710 --> 53:53.410]  And we think it is obscene.
[53:53.610 --> 53:55.910]  You can buy AR-15.
[53:55.910 --> 53:58.330]  The gun fever is bad.
[54:01.610 --> 54:06.750]  Every time you read the New York Times, 17 dead in a school gun crime.
[54:06.750 --> 54:07.570]  It's the fever.
[54:08.910 --> 54:10.070]  The gun fever.
[54:11.770 --> 54:14.330]  The simplest thing is, ra-ta-ta-ta-ta.
[54:15.130 --> 54:16.870]  NRA, how you deemed it that?
[54:17.030 --> 54:17.710]  It's the fever.
[00:00.000 --> 00:03.600]  And here we are on Off The Hook Overtime.
[00:04.580 --> 00:06.200]  Everybody, make it okay?
[00:06.200 --> 00:09.080]  Looks like we're all here.
[00:09.360 --> 00:09.760]  Great.
[00:10.480 --> 00:13.140]  And I want to continue that conversation.
[00:13.280 --> 00:14.300]  I see our guest has returned.
[00:15.780 --> 00:16.740]  Yep, I'm back.
[00:17.280 --> 00:18.220]  How about that?
[00:18.940 --> 00:20.680]  Great, great conversation before.
[00:20.980 --> 00:23.600]  I don't know if you caught the other conversation we started to have.
[00:25.700 --> 00:26.620]  It's inspirational.
[00:26.620 --> 00:32.100]  You know, hackers doing amazing things just by thinking outside the box.
[00:33.160 --> 00:35.440]  And I don't profess to have answers.
[00:36.300 --> 00:41.100]  And odds are we're going to make lots and lots of mistakes before we actually do something that's right.
[00:41.500 --> 00:48.800]  But to be told that don't bother even trying because it's already been decided and there's nothing you can do.
[00:49.100 --> 00:51.060]  That's something I think we're constantly fighting.
[00:51.060 --> 00:59.900]  So hopefully we can all, no matter what we believe, we can all agree that that is a healthy thing to do is to try and find solutions.
[01:02.100 --> 01:03.500]  Yeah, I completely agree.
[01:03.680 --> 01:10.500]  You know, how many things in this world wouldn't exist if someone had not refused that impossible was the answer?
[01:11.020 --> 01:12.500]  It's, no, there's a way.
[01:12.540 --> 01:14.180]  And they just persevere and they press through.
[01:15.740 --> 01:22.800]  You know, I would not want to think of the world as it would be if everyone just assumed that impossible was the answer.
[01:23.800 --> 01:26.580]  Yeah, I think Einstein might have a thing or two to say about that.
[01:26.860 --> 01:35.900]  As many scientists, explorers, just people who buck authority and decide to go out on their own and find a solution.
[01:36.920 --> 01:43.520]  You know, sometimes it's a good solution, sometimes it's not, but it almost always leads to something else, which is what it's all about.
[01:44.320 --> 01:53.720]  We're opening up phone calls, phone lines, 802-321-4225, 802-321-4225.
[01:54.420 --> 01:55.880]  And we have that toll-free number, too.
[01:55.980 --> 01:56.780]  Does anybody have that handy?
[01:57.360 --> 01:58.000]  Go ahead, Ron.
[01:59.580 --> 02:03.020]  That is 833-755-2600.
[02:03.600 --> 02:05.800]  Thanks to our pal, Lucky225, for setting that up.
[02:06.240 --> 02:10.920]  Okay, so if people want to jump on me for talking about gun control, fine, go ahead, have at it.
[02:10.920 --> 02:12.540]  But, you know, it's relevant.
[02:12.680 --> 02:13.340]  It's all relevant.
[02:13.340 --> 02:14.180]  It all matters.
[02:14.340 --> 02:15.100]  It all ties together.
[02:15.260 --> 02:22.580]  Freedom of speech and free society and technological advances and fighting injustice.
[02:22.580 --> 02:23.980]  It's all part of the same thing.
[02:26.660 --> 02:34.880]  Yeah, and for the record, based on our last conversation there, you know, I'm not a Second Amendment attorney, you know, by any means.
[02:34.880 --> 02:42.860]  But I do think that the word arms would also encompass bullets as well.
[02:43.020 --> 02:44.940]  Why are you being difficult, Alex?
[02:45.140 --> 02:45.320]  Really?
[02:45.520 --> 02:47.160]  You're going to say bullets are arms?
[02:48.080 --> 02:49.000]  Where does it say that?
[02:49.120 --> 02:49.920]  Where does it say that?
[02:49.980 --> 02:50.840]  It doesn't say it in the Constitution.
[02:52.100 --> 02:54.540]  No, but I'm saying, you know, the right to bear arms.
[02:54.740 --> 02:55.060]  Yeah.
[02:55.600 --> 02:59.800]  Arms, I believe, my interpretation of arms would also include ammunition.
[03:00.800 --> 03:02.100]  But what are you basing that on?
[03:03.340 --> 03:12.460]  The definition of the word arms, you know, that's, I think, a common colloquial knowledge and parlance and, you know, what you would consider arms.
[03:12.660 --> 03:19.840]  Well, I looked up arms before, and it basically was what I thought, weapons, you know, things like guns and knives.
[03:20.920 --> 03:24.020]  Not everything that you can add to it.
[03:24.060 --> 03:25.640]  I mean, is the package a gun comes in?
[03:25.720 --> 03:27.480]  Is that considered arms, too?
[03:28.000 --> 03:38.380]  You know, it's, it's, maybe, maybe what you're saying is the whole package is considered an arm, and it's not an arm if you don't have a bullet in it, which opens up a whole other dialogue.
[03:38.380 --> 03:46.360]  I think the important thing here is that nuance needs to be a part of establishing or at least navigating discussion of these things.
[03:47.460 --> 04:02.160]  It's, like you said, there's, the answers may not necessarily be there, but the way of looking at it and the vision ahead, looking forward, what is necessary, what is possible, in the face of impossibility, in the face of people who don't see it.
[04:02.160 --> 04:19.580]  And getting good at expressing that vision, that's an incredibly, a hallmark of scientists, who understand it, who see it, but communicating that is also equally important, but it is difficult, and it's something you have to exercise and practice.
[04:19.580 --> 04:33.760]  And by discussing here, and expressing and sharing as much as possible, what we know, and what we're exploring, what we're interested in, how to organize things, all of that is the crux of that spirit.
[04:34.080 --> 04:38.360]  And I think it's so fun to talk about different ways people employ that.
[04:38.740 --> 04:39.200]  Go ahead, Gila.
[04:39.940 --> 04:45.400]  So I was thinking about, you had said something, I believe, on Twitter a couple days ago about bullets.
[04:45.680 --> 04:47.980]  Yes, I had the same idea on Twitter, and I remembered it.
[04:47.980 --> 04:49.100]  Yes.
[04:49.420 --> 05:07.740]  So the thing that it reminded me of is something that Chris Rock said 22 years ago, that I've been quoting since he said it 22 years ago, where he said, if you, you know, made bullets cost $1,000 a piece, there wouldn't be spur-of-the-moment shootings anymore.
[05:07.740 --> 05:18.680]  He said someone would make you angry, and you would say, I'm really mad at you, and I'm going to go get two part-time jobs, and when I can afford it in six months, I'm going to come back and shoot you.
[05:18.900 --> 05:19.260]  Yes.
[05:19.520 --> 05:21.500]  That's the kind of thinking I'm talking about.
[05:21.640 --> 05:22.720]  That's creative thinking.
[05:23.520 --> 05:31.320]  And, you know, how do you get all the bullets that already exist, though, to also be prohibitively expensive?
[05:31.500 --> 05:35.160]  You know, you have to kind of figure out, okay, so it's already a problem.
[05:35.400 --> 05:37.240]  Already there's a vast supply out there.
[05:37.300 --> 05:39.200]  Is there some creative way of thinking?
[05:40.420 --> 05:47.380]  Another suggestion I've seen many times, make guns incredibly valuable so that people are encouraged to sell them back.
[05:47.380 --> 05:52.060]  You know, if every gun, imagine if every gun was worth $1,000 minimum, you know?
[05:52.380 --> 05:58.420]  I imagine a lot of people in various parts of this country would be cashing them in pretty quickly and using the money for something useful.
[05:58.820 --> 06:10.140]  I think you do make a good point that the availability, part of it is widespread outlets and distribution or online or make your DIY, whatever you want to fill that in with.
[06:10.140 --> 06:40.120]  But also, in light of that availability, the low entry point, as far as retail costs, makes it so that in these situations, people have ready access to way more than, you know, you would want anyone to be anywhere close to in a situation where they might not be able to be rational about their response.
[06:40.140 --> 06:53.760]  In response to, you know, whatever's happening and having breakdowns with, you know, really incredibly engineered and, and, uh, um, vaunted for quality that's so dirt cheap.
[06:53.980 --> 06:55.180]  Like, that just is nonsense.
[06:55.320 --> 06:56.600]  It should not be that way.
[06:56.760 --> 07:00.000]  Um, we should put a higher value on life and people.
[07:00.160 --> 07:00.800]  Go ahead, Jason.
[07:01.960 --> 07:18.220]  You know, it's funny you mentioned, uh, you know, if you make bullets cost prohibitive, I think that there's a natural function, um, in our economy that if you make future bullets cost prohibitive, you make current bullets cost prohibitive because now they become incredibly valuable.
[07:18.900 --> 07:24.600]  And one, people of means will want to hoard them as a manner of protecting value.
[07:24.900 --> 07:30.760]  And two, people who have them will be more loathe to use them because the replacement cost is so high.
[07:31.000 --> 07:38.700]  A digital currency attached to bullets, bullet coin, we could call it, you know, and the value would just soar because it became, it becomes scarce.
[07:39.080 --> 07:40.920]  But can people build bullets on their own?
[07:40.980 --> 07:41.880]  Is it an easy thing to do?
[07:42.000 --> 07:42.960]  I know nothing about this.
[07:44.960 --> 07:49.660]  I think that most people struggle to boil pots of water, um, to make pasta.
[07:49.900 --> 07:50.280]  Uh-huh.
[07:50.280 --> 07:52.400]  So I would be afraid to let them make their own bullets.
[07:52.580 --> 08:04.600]  It is, it is a popular thing in, uh, in communities, uh, that, you know, people that are, uh, gunsmiths or whatever, they're into ammo or whatever, but that's not the...
[08:05.880 --> 08:07.080]  Oh, we have a call, sorry.
[08:07.220 --> 08:07.720]  We have a call.
[08:07.860 --> 08:08.620]  We'll get to that in a second.
[08:08.800 --> 08:12.700]  But how about the idea of just making it illegal to fire a gun?
[08:12.880 --> 08:14.380]  Who would argue against that?
[08:15.420 --> 08:17.140]  Alex, would you argue against that?
[08:18.300 --> 08:27.840]  Even in places where, you know, the right to bear arms certainly is not infringed, where, you know, let's say, you know, you can open carry, right?
[08:27.840 --> 08:38.420]  A lot of these communities already do make it illegal to shoot guns within the confines of certain municipalities or certain cities, of course, especially in the South.
[08:38.740 --> 08:39.460]  What's the penalty?
[08:39.620 --> 08:40.600]  What's the penalty for doing it?
[08:41.160 --> 08:41.720]  I don't know.
[08:41.840 --> 08:43.780]  I couldn't tell you off the top of my head.
[08:43.820 --> 08:45.480]  Fire your gun a year in jail.
[08:45.480 --> 08:46.680]  How about that for a penalty?
[08:47.260 --> 08:47.660]  Sure.
[08:47.880 --> 08:49.620]  I mean, you'll probably get a fine.
[08:49.760 --> 08:51.540]  Maybe it's a misdemeanor, something like that.
[08:51.760 --> 08:53.000]  I doubt that it's a felony.
[08:53.000 --> 08:54.040]  Real penalties, though.
[08:54.160 --> 08:55.460]  Let's put real penalties on them.
[08:55.640 --> 08:56.260]  And then what happens?
[08:56.300 --> 08:56.960]  That's what I'm asking.
[08:57.840 --> 08:59.480]  Well, probably not much.
[08:59.620 --> 09:04.420]  But in a lot of ways, it already is illegal to do that in certain municipalities and cities.
[09:04.600 --> 09:07.500]  I don't see that as being a major deterrent.
[09:07.620 --> 09:14.400]  And I certainly wouldn't want people to be going to prison for discharging a firearm that did no harm, right?
[09:14.500 --> 09:19.160]  I mean, I don't think that that's necessarily the right solution here.
[09:19.160 --> 09:20.160]  I think...
[09:21.040 --> 09:21.740]  No, go ahead.
[09:21.900 --> 09:22.340]  Sorry.
[09:22.460 --> 09:29.400]  No, I just... what occurs to me is traceability is probably more valuable in a criminal and legal sense.
[09:29.660 --> 09:35.820]  So what you're going to see is a lot more smart technology thrown around and buzzwords like that.
[09:35.900 --> 09:37.740]  The issue is... okay, fine.
[09:37.900 --> 09:39.400]  You fire your gun once.
[09:39.640 --> 09:40.480]  It doesn't cause any harm.
[09:40.760 --> 09:43.520]  But I say it does cause harm because it makes it normal.
[09:43.720 --> 09:45.320]  It makes it normal to be firing guns.
[09:46.500 --> 09:51.660]  And you will kill somebody or hurt somebody or hurt themselves.
[09:52.240 --> 09:54.840]  The thing is, you have to justify it.
[09:54.980 --> 09:59.060]  By making it a crime, you have to say, why did you do that?
[10:00.000 --> 10:01.700]  And it has to be taken seriously.
[10:02.300 --> 10:08.460]  Now, people who say they collect guns for the beauty of them, for the history, okay, you're not affected by this.
[10:08.520 --> 10:09.620]  Why should you be upset?
[10:09.860 --> 10:12.500]  Hunters, whole different set of regulations for hunting.
[10:12.520 --> 10:13.540]  You're not affected.
[10:15.720 --> 10:20.520]  I just don't... I'm looking to see why that wouldn't work.
[10:20.800 --> 10:24.180]  And when someone proves that it doesn't work, we'll figure something else out.
[10:24.280 --> 10:26.220]  But we have to have that conversation, is what I'm saying.
[10:28.380 --> 10:30.180]  Should we go to this phone call?
[10:30.580 --> 10:31.180]  Good evening.
[10:31.300 --> 10:32.100]  You're on off the hook.
[10:32.160 --> 10:32.400]  Go ahead.
[10:33.660 --> 10:34.000]  Hi.
[10:34.100 --> 10:35.000]  Good evening, everyone.
[10:35.240 --> 10:35.380]  Hi.
[10:35.380 --> 10:37.160]  I love that reggae song.
[10:37.160 --> 10:40.660]  And I'd like to know where I could find that.
[10:40.740 --> 10:45.540]  That actually is, believe it or not, the specials from an album they put out about a year ago.
[10:45.860 --> 10:46.780]  Yeah, they're back.
[10:47.700 --> 10:56.280]  And that's the second version of that song that they put out, called Blam Blam Fever, I believe, which is also an old reggae standard from Jamaica.
[10:58.220 --> 10:58.660]  Wonderful.
[10:59.040 --> 11:00.300]  Thank you so much.
[11:00.440 --> 11:00.620]  Sure.
[11:00.760 --> 11:02.100]  Anything else you want to contribute?
[11:04.140 --> 11:05.420]  I love your show.
[11:05.680 --> 11:05.900]  Okay.
[11:05.920 --> 11:06.760]  I guess that's good enough.
[11:06.940 --> 11:07.240]  Thank you.
[11:09.060 --> 11:09.540]  Yeah.
[11:09.540 --> 11:10.340]  Thanks for calling.
[11:10.460 --> 11:10.940]  Thank you.
[11:11.640 --> 11:11.940]  Bye.
[11:12.160 --> 11:12.300]  Happy spring.
[11:13.180 --> 11:16.620]  And our phone number is 802-321-4225.
[11:16.620 --> 11:22.320]  If you wish to say something, ask us something, tell us something.
[11:22.620 --> 11:22.700]  Yeah.
[11:23.500 --> 11:25.240]  802-321-4225.
[11:25.380 --> 11:26.440]  Alex, looks like you have something to say.
[11:27.060 --> 11:29.540]  Yeah, I think that was a nice call.
[11:30.300 --> 11:33.700]  It's always nice to get positive feedback from our listeners.
[11:33.700 --> 11:35.420]  We thank you for that caller.
[11:35.900 --> 11:37.220]  Negative feedback is welcome, too.
[11:37.380 --> 11:42.180]  You know, I don't expect that we have the answers here, but I'd just like you to be part of the discourse.
[11:42.680 --> 11:44.900]  We do get our share of negative feedback as well.
[11:44.980 --> 11:45.720]  It's not all positive.
[11:45.880 --> 11:51.740]  You know, people are rather forthright with some of the emails that they send to OTH22600.com.
[11:51.740 --> 11:51.900]  All caps.
[11:52.360 --> 11:53.340]  I encourage you to be so, too.
[11:53.880 --> 12:08.680]  Getting back to this issue, though, of guns, and also, you know, I want to bring it back to the police and the use of excessive force here, too, because, you know, I like what you're doing here, Emmanuel, which is trying to think about this, not in the specific terms of the issue,
[12:08.780 --> 12:10.100]  but a broader context.
[12:10.240 --> 12:11.580]  I want hackers to solve guns.
[12:11.700 --> 12:12.940]  I want them to do that tonight.
[12:13.780 --> 12:15.800]  You know, and something I've been saying for you...
[12:15.800 --> 12:16.180]  Education tomorrow.
[12:16.480 --> 12:16.680]  Yes.
[12:17.020 --> 12:23.060]  ...is that, you know, I think, honestly, the best lawyers out there have a hacker mentality, right?
[12:23.060 --> 12:25.280]  We're thinking about how to change the system.
[12:25.420 --> 12:26.680]  Why does the policy this way?
[12:26.780 --> 12:28.000]  Does it have to be this way?
[12:28.240 --> 12:34.260]  You know, is there an underlying philosophy that we can change that that would dictate a different outcome, right?
[12:34.320 --> 12:36.420]  We're talking about systems and change here.
[12:36.680 --> 12:42.260]  And one of the things that I want to bring up, I think the overtime is really the better place to do it.
[12:42.360 --> 12:58.180]  But in terms of discouraging police from using excessive force, I think what Jason has put together, together with Human Rights First and Lambda School, Blue Witness, is such a great step towards accountability for the use of excessive force.
[12:58.380 --> 13:13.800]  But if we want to change it systemically, we have to come to grips with the fact that we have created a system, and we are talking about systems here, where people are not all equal under the law, right?
[13:13.920 --> 13:22.820]  We like to say, we like to point at yesterday's verdict and say, this is an indication that in this country, nobody is above the law.
[13:23.000 --> 13:25.060]  You know, we can hear pundits saying that all the time.
[13:25.240 --> 13:27.980]  Yeah, you always have to add sometimes to the end of that sentence.
[13:28.380 --> 13:31.500]  Well, sometimes, but it is certainly not true.
[13:31.800 --> 13:33.580]  We have created a system.
[13:33.900 --> 13:48.200]  The Supreme Court of the United States has created a legal doctrine known as qualified immunity that has allowed police officers to use excessive force with near impunity for the last almost 60 years.
[13:48.600 --> 13:51.400]  It's about 65 years that this has been on the books.
[13:51.480 --> 13:52.500]  Well, I think 64.
[13:53.180 --> 13:54.900]  And it started in 1967.
[13:55.240 --> 14:07.180]  And this issue of qualified immunity really allows police officers to get off, in most cases, scot-free for doing things that if we did them to another human being, it would be a felony.
[14:07.320 --> 14:09.600]  It might be a very high-level felony.
[14:09.600 --> 14:15.860]  We might be going away for 10, 20, 30 years if we did certain things that police have gotten immunity for doing.
[14:16.160 --> 14:20.620]  And the reason being is that this is a legal fiction that we created.
[14:20.620 --> 14:26.480]  So how can we say that nobody is above the law in this country when we have a legal doctrine like qualified immunity?
[14:26.700 --> 14:35.040]  It started off as being this modest exception for public officials who believed that they were doing the right thing under the law, right?
[14:35.180 --> 14:36.720]  And then it expanded.
[14:36.940 --> 14:46.380]  And it expanded to basically that you had to prove that you had a pre-existing right to something that was infringed, right?
[14:46.440 --> 14:52.780]  You had to prove that you had this, you know, well-established pre-existing right.
[14:53.160 --> 14:55.300]  And what the hell does that mean, right?
[14:55.380 --> 14:58.680]  I mean, so this has been judicially interpreted for quite a while.
[14:59.040 --> 15:23.360]  And the way in which the courts have come to try to wrangle with these pre-existing rights is that in order to pierce this doctrine of qualified immunity, you had to be able to point to a specific context and specific conduct in a prior case where it was held that this was not,
[15:23.540 --> 15:28.600]  or that there was a pre-existing right and that the police who did this were wrong.
[15:29.260 --> 15:45.160]  So you had to be able to point to a case in the past where a judge had already said that in this context, let's say if you were tased three times on your neck and once on your foot, that this was absolutely wrong and you had a pre-existing right not to be tased,
[15:45.300 --> 15:48.580]  a clear, well-established pre-existing right to be left alone.
[15:48.780 --> 15:59.100]  And because of this very highly fact-specific legal analysis, and the burden of persuasion here is on the plaintiff.
[15:59.460 --> 16:03.900]  The plaintiff is also the victim in these types of situations.
[16:04.160 --> 16:22.160]  So I think until we, as tackers and lawyers, begin to seriously reconsider this doctrine of qualified immunity in its place in the United States, we are going to continue to encourage this type of excessive use of force.
[16:22.340 --> 16:31.300]  And I think that we can use technology to try to hold them accountable like Jason's doing, and I think it's great, but we need a full court press, so to speak, on this issue.
[16:31.340 --> 16:42.240]  Can I also just introduce my out-of-the-box thinking to this issue in one simplistic statement, and that's the Supreme Court oftentimes gets it completely wrong throughout history.
[16:42.420 --> 16:45.600]  They have made some horrible, horrible decisions.
[16:46.440 --> 16:47.580]  Dred Scott v.
[16:47.840 --> 16:50.280]  Sanford going back to 1857, Buck v.
[16:50.440 --> 16:53.140]  Bell, 1927, just so many.
[16:53.400 --> 16:58.360]  Just look it up, bad Supreme Court decisions that are no longer the law.
[16:58.880 --> 17:03.300]  But today we hold them in high esteem.
[17:03.400 --> 17:15.220]  We say if they say this is the law, might be, might be for now, doesn't mean they're right, doesn't mean it's correct, doesn't mean the future will judge that in a positive manner.
[17:15.500 --> 17:17.460]  Let's take this other phone call.
[17:17.580 --> 17:17.920]  Good evening.
[17:18.060 --> 17:18.980]  You're on Off the Hook.
[17:20.000 --> 17:20.360]  Hello.
[17:21.540 --> 17:22.240]  How you doing?
[17:22.440 --> 17:22.900]  First time calling.
[17:23.180 --> 17:23.640]  Oh, great.
[17:25.300 --> 17:26.500]  A long time listener.
[17:27.780 --> 17:30.980]  I, uh, so, arms.
[17:31.780 --> 17:32.600]  Yes, go ahead.
[17:33.260 --> 17:38.800]  Uh, to be, like, fully armed or fully equipped would include bullets.
[17:39.240 --> 17:45.220]  And that is probably an implication of a working militia, therefore, part of the right.
[17:45.420 --> 17:49.960]  That doesn't mean that we can't change, uh, the Constitution at all.
[17:51.540 --> 17:52.600]  Amendments, et cetera.
[17:53.440 --> 18:02.580]  Uh, that said, um, making bullets more expensive, probably not going to work, uh, because they're actually fairly easy to make.
[18:02.600 --> 18:04.240]  Once you know how to make them.
[18:04.440 --> 18:04.680]  Okay.
[18:05.060 --> 18:11.900]  Uh, but, making, uh, firing a gun illegal could possibly work.
[18:11.980 --> 18:12.220]  Aha!
[18:12.420 --> 18:13.740]  I have support.
[18:13.880 --> 18:14.420]  I have support.
[18:15.560 --> 18:29.100]  But, uh, we definitely would have to work on, like, qualified immunity and our, uh, our policing judicial system in the first place, by far, before that's going to be effective.
[18:31.320 --> 18:31.680]  Absolutely.
[18:31.980 --> 18:32.760]  That's, I mean, well said.
[18:32.980 --> 18:33.400]  Well said.
[18:35.600 --> 18:37.120]  Yeah, uh, that's about it.
[18:37.440 --> 18:37.680]  Okay.
[18:37.820 --> 18:39.020]  May I ask where, where are you calling from?
[18:39.140 --> 18:39.680]  Where are you calling from?
[18:40.220 --> 18:41.740]  Uh, Chicago, Illinois.
[18:42.960 --> 18:43.460]  Okay, great.
[18:43.580 --> 18:44.560]  That's, that's where Jason is from.
[18:44.740 --> 18:45.600]  He's with us right now.
[18:47.560 --> 18:47.920]  Wonderful.
[18:48.280 --> 18:49.140]  Another Chicago native.
[18:51.560 --> 18:51.980]  All right.
[18:52.100 --> 18:53.380]  Well, thanks, uh, thanks for that call.
[18:53.500 --> 18:54.240]  And keep listening.
[18:55.120 --> 18:55.440]  Absolutely.
[18:56.480 --> 18:56.640]  Bye.
[18:57.120 --> 18:57.360]  Bye.
[18:58.420 --> 18:59.200]  Sorry about the echo.
[18:59.440 --> 19:02.120]  I'm not sure sometimes we get echo when we talk down the line.
[19:02.260 --> 19:03.540]  I don't think there's anything we can do.
[19:03.760 --> 19:09.440]  It may have been, uh, their audio, if they were monitoring without headphones, but it's no worry.
[19:09.560 --> 19:10.060]  It wasn't so loud.
[19:10.060 --> 19:11.080]  I thought it was a longer delay.
[19:11.220 --> 19:12.140]  That's why I didn't think it was that.
[19:12.240 --> 19:12.860]  But, okay, fine.
[19:13.040 --> 19:17.640]  I think, yeah, they're, they're just monitoring so they could hear, but it helps to have headphones sometimes.
[19:17.940 --> 19:18.860]  But only I was echoing.
[19:18.920 --> 19:19.680]  It wasn't so bad.
[19:20.000 --> 19:20.240]  Okay.
[19:20.460 --> 19:22.320]  Well, you were speaking with them.
[19:22.640 --> 19:22.840]  Yeah.
[19:23.060 --> 19:23.260]  Okay.
[19:23.280 --> 19:24.020]  I guess that makes sense.
[19:24.120 --> 19:24.720]  Rob, go ahead.
[19:25.880 --> 19:39.400]  Um, the, the question of whether or not the gun is arms and, uh, and if you need bullets in it for it to be arms, um, I, I know, uh, and Alex, maybe you can clarify this if I get this wrong, but like, there's that concept of anything can be a deadly weapon.
[19:39.400 --> 19:46.320]  Because if you have, like, a pipe wrench that you use for fixing things, but, uh, you'll whomp someone over the head with it and kill them.
[19:46.520 --> 19:49.760]  When you're, uh, sent up for that murder, it's assault with a deadly weapon.
[19:49.960 --> 19:58.940]  And, you know, that, that wrench that you have, although it wasn't intended to kill people with, uh, you're, you're then further guilty of, uh, of using that as a deadly weapon.
[19:58.940 --> 20:03.400]  So it recategorizes the thing as a weapon, um, legally.
[20:04.100 --> 20:09.080]  And, um, speaking of arms, how come it's, I can't have a bazooka.
[20:09.800 --> 20:12.200]  How does the constitution not project that?
[20:12.380 --> 20:12.820]  Or a tank?
[20:12.940 --> 20:13.760]  I can't have a tank either.
[20:16.360 --> 20:16.720]  Yeah.
[20:16.860 --> 20:19.500]  I mean, look, obviously there's, there's regulation already.
[20:19.700 --> 20:24.480]  You know, there's, you know, but if there's regulation on that, why can't there be regulation on other things?
[20:24.600 --> 20:26.040]  That's, that's what I never could understand.
[20:26.640 --> 20:31.360]  Well, there's, but to go back to Rob's query, you know, he, he is exactly right here too.
[20:31.560 --> 20:39.860]  You know, that anything can be a deadly weapon and that, you know, it really depends upon your intent when you wield whatever it is.
[20:40.160 --> 20:40.520]  Right.
[20:40.800 --> 20:52.340]  But, you know, to go back to your question too, Emmanuel, there are certain things that are regulated as munitions as well that, that, that, you know, historically probably shouldn't have been to bring it right back down to hacker culture.
[20:52.500 --> 20:53.780]  Think about encryption.
[20:53.960 --> 21:07.060]  It was, it was illegal to export, uh, strong crypto, strong cryptography, uh, for, for many, many years under the ITAR regulations because they were considered to be ammunition.
[21:07.560 --> 21:13.600]  So, you know, exporting cryptography was analogous to trying to export a tank or a bazooka.
[21:13.880 --> 21:23.440]  You know, and this was why you remember this probably back from the nineties, people got the, uh, the RSA pearl algorithm printed on t-shirts and tattooed on their arms.
[21:23.520 --> 21:23.680]  Yes.
[21:23.940 --> 21:28.600]  So technically, you know, their, their arm or that t-shirt wasn't allowed to, to leave the country.
[21:28.600 --> 21:35.860]  And it was to demonstrate the, uh, the, the idiocy or the, um, ineffectiveness of those particular types of laws.
[21:35.860 --> 21:40.220]  If it was considered a, uh, a munition, would it not be protected under the second amendment?
[21:42.480 --> 21:48.380]  You know, talking about the distinction between export ban, like domestic use and, uh, international exports.
[21:48.460 --> 21:48.560]  Right.
[21:48.660 --> 21:59.140]  We're talking about that, but I'm talking about in this country, you know, could you say that encryption is protected because it can be considered a munition and, and that covers the second amendment covers that?
[21:59.600 --> 22:03.840]  Well, then you would be allowed to use it in the United States, not necessarily to, to export it.
[22:03.960 --> 22:12.380]  But look, that's, that's a pretty fascinating, uh, legal argument that you come up with, which is to use the second amendment to protect cryptography.
[22:12.660 --> 22:13.600]  Covering a lot of ground tonight.
[22:13.800 --> 22:15.900]  That's like going the opposite direction.
[22:16.280 --> 22:22.500]  Sometimes you have to, you have to run back behind the quarterback before you can make that, that charge to the, to the touchdown.
[22:22.820 --> 22:24.000]  We have another phone call.
[22:24.100 --> 22:24.400]  Good evening.
[22:24.580 --> 22:25.800]  You're on off the hook overtime.
[22:27.220 --> 22:27.620]  Greetings.
[22:28.080 --> 22:28.540]  How you doing?
[22:29.180 --> 22:30.280]  I think we know who this is.
[22:30.280 --> 22:31.100]  I'm surviving.
[22:31.480 --> 22:31.800]  Good, good.
[22:31.860 --> 22:39.860]  I did an experiment with my, uh, with my vaccination that I thought you might be interested in.
[22:40.520 --> 22:42.040]  Experimented with your vaccination.
[22:42.280 --> 22:43.540]  Do I want to know what you did?
[22:44.400 --> 22:45.000]  Yes.
[22:45.220 --> 22:45.480]  Okay.
[22:45.660 --> 22:45.800]  I do.
[22:46.860 --> 22:54.820]  The day before I got my first shot, I got, uh, tested, uh, for antibodies.
[22:54.820 --> 22:56.060]  I did the same thing.
[22:57.580 --> 23:07.340]  And I had heard that they were working on a test specifically for, uh, did the shot take?
[23:07.820 --> 23:16.600]  And, you know, I was told, you know, you've been told you're, you don't, this isn't necessary and it's not a test for that and blah, blah, blah.
[23:16.700 --> 23:18.780]  And I said, well, it's what we've got.
[23:19.020 --> 23:30.280]  And I'm hoping that the other test, uh, for did it take, uh, will be available by the time I'm completely vaccinated.
[23:30.920 --> 23:40.060]  So once I was fully vaccinated and two weeks later and a few days, I went to get that test again.
[23:40.700 --> 24:00.720]  And the doctor told me again, this doesn't test for that, but he went and he checked and he said, you know, the, that experimental thing for the spike protein is now, uh, listed as something that we can order.
[24:01.060 --> 24:06.200]  Uh, it's experimental and your insurance might not pay for it.
[24:06.380 --> 24:07.980]  And I said, I want it.
[24:08.220 --> 24:12.080]  So I got both of the tests together.
[24:12.080 --> 24:12.720]  Okay.
[24:13.020 --> 24:34.000]  And I got the results back, uh, a day or two later or three, uh, the IGAG, uh, or whatever, uh, whatever the correct term is for the, uh, have you had it in the past one came back negative.
[24:34.400 --> 24:46.600]  You have not had COVID and the one that was for IGAG and spike S1 slash S2 came back positive.
[24:46.760 --> 24:49.360]  You have had COVID in the past.
[24:50.340 --> 25:15.460]  So in other words, uh, the vaccine did indeed work and in six months or nine months or whatever, uh, whenever seems appropriate based on the science at the time, I can always get that test again and see how strongly those spike proteins are, are still in there.
[25:15.640 --> 25:17.000]  Do they register or not?
[25:17.160 --> 25:19.320]  Cause it's a, it's strictly a yes.
[25:19.440 --> 25:24.960]  No, it doesn't give you, you have a few, you have a lot, you have an average number.
[25:25.140 --> 25:26.940]  It just, it's yes.
[25:27.160 --> 25:27.240]  No.
[25:27.960 --> 25:28.440]  Interesting.
[25:28.780 --> 25:37.100]  So if, if those tests become, uh, somewhat, um, run of the mill, that could be something that, uh, we all do to see if we need a booster.
[25:38.080 --> 25:38.560]  Yes.
[25:39.320 --> 25:39.560]  Great.
[25:39.820 --> 25:46.360]  You asked a question before you wanted to solve, uh, a police violence tonight.
[25:46.800 --> 25:51.100]  Uh, well, I want to solve guns tonight, but police violence, if we can solve that tonight too, I'll consider it a win.
[25:51.820 --> 25:52.340]  Okay.
[25:52.780 --> 25:59.980]  Now I have to warn you, I got a phone call, uh, 15 minutes before the radio show ended.
[26:00.160 --> 26:17.160]  And so I, and I'm, I've missed, uh, a bunch of the discussion, but, uh, uh, uh, I think that, uh, if we want to solve police violence, uh, we should get rid of police being armed.
[26:17.620 --> 26:28.720]  If we can't get to that yet, uh, and also handcuffs might be good too, but at the very minimum, uh, get those guns out of their hands.
[26:28.720 --> 26:29.740]  That's a very good point.
[26:29.840 --> 26:41.320]  And a lot of people would dismiss that out of hand, but I want to entertain that because if, um, if you are trained in deescalation, uh, and taking control in situations, you don't need a gun to do that.
[26:41.480 --> 26:45.300]  Uh, a good, uh, a good professional does not need a gun for that.
[26:45.400 --> 26:51.040]  And I think what cops do is they rely on guns as crutches and they use them all the time.
[26:51.040 --> 26:56.320]  For instance, what just happened in Columbus that could have been addressed without the use of deadly force.
[26:56.620 --> 26:57.080]  Absolutely.
[26:57.400 --> 27:05.840]  No matter what you believe of, of the person who lost their life, you know, there are so many instances where guns are not the answer.
[27:06.380 --> 27:09.260]  And, uh, so many of them are, are cops proving that.
[27:10.400 --> 27:21.340]  Well, if I could continue with what I was trying to unpack, um, there's a lot of people who are saying, well, the police need it because blah, blah, blah.
[27:21.600 --> 27:30.460]  But the re the only reason that police are at all targets is because they have the guns.
[27:30.940 --> 27:37.180]  Uh, any criminal who has a gun is afraid that the police will shoot them.
[27:37.440 --> 27:39.940]  And so they are willing.
[27:40.240 --> 27:44.440]  And the same thing with, uh, uh, suicide by cop.
[27:44.680 --> 27:50.500]  If police didn't have the guns, then they wouldn't be the targets that they are.
[27:51.140 --> 28:14.480]  But, uh, uh, let us, let us consider that at the moment, uh, people are not ready for that step yet of, of, of taking the guns away from the police, even though it worked in, in Britain, in the United Kingdom, Bobby's for, you know, centuries that didn't have any guns.
[28:14.640 --> 28:16.260]  And even now, most of them don't.
[28:16.720 --> 28:20.220]  And they were able to do their police work just fine.
[28:20.360 --> 28:22.100]  But assuming in the U.S.
[28:22.300 --> 28:39.440]  that people are not ready for that yet, if we had a one strike and you're in, uh, in the office, uh, policy, they keep saying that most police never fire their guns in the, in their entire career.
[28:39.440 --> 28:41.460]  Well, then they're not affected.
[28:42.160 --> 28:44.100]  And so you have a one strike.
[28:44.100 --> 28:51.160]  If you draw your gun, we, we don't have to prove whether you did it justifiably or unjustifiably.
[28:51.440 --> 28:57.140]  If you have drawn it once, we want to make sure that it's not going to happen again.
[28:57.380 --> 29:02.480]  And you are going to be safe in the police station where you won't need a gun again.
[29:03.020 --> 29:09.120]  This struck me, this very thing struck me with just the status quo where we're at and thinking it through.
[29:09.280 --> 29:28.240]  And just, it occurred to me that, and that that's why I mentioned it earlier towards the end of the show, just like they've proven they can't use them responsibly in any other situation where an oversight or an authority, uh, figure would be like handling,
[29:28.240 --> 29:31.740]  uh, the children, you know, discipline in certain situations.
[29:32.800 --> 29:35.760]  If you can't handle something responsibly, you take it away.
[29:36.800 --> 29:43.340]  And you know, whether it's reform, whether it's retraining, whenever we get to that, yeah, then maybe they're on the table.
[29:43.460 --> 30:08.140]  Maybe there's a, uh, a response team that is proven to have a lot more, um, uh, uh, uh, acumen and, uh, training and, and, um, and are only brought in with, uh, a liaison of sorts who's on the ground and deem the situation, the incident, one that needs that kind of,
[30:08.140 --> 30:28.320]  uh, response on and on you, we can get to that point, but it's, it's just been such a, uh, uh, melee of incident after incident after incident of carelessness with something that is really dangerous just generally, uh, if not used properly, well, they're not being used properly.
[30:28.440 --> 30:30.540]  They're not, they're, they're reaching for them.
[30:30.540 --> 30:38.060]  Like, like was said as a, um, excuse or a leaning on it in a lazy way.
[30:38.360 --> 31:01.660]  That's not doing your job well, aside from, you know, swearing and, you know, being generally rude and, and, uh, you know, running red lights and not generally running around cities with impunity that starts with little things, that behavior just escalates and you become an officer in certain situations like this,
[31:01.660 --> 31:03.620]  uh, uh, Chauvin character.
[31:03.800 --> 31:06.980]  And if you don't, you become somebody that's affected by that person.
[31:07.100 --> 31:08.120]  You're afraid of that person.
[31:08.240 --> 31:08.920]  You defend that person.
[31:09.100 --> 31:09.580]  Go ahead, Jason.
[31:13.420 --> 31:18.500]  So I think that people who look at police, we keep hearing this word police reform.
[31:18.800 --> 31:25.460]  And I think that's part of the problem is we're trying to reform a system that is so utterly broken and a culture that is so deeply entrenched.
[31:25.980 --> 31:32.100]  And maybe it's time for just a complete re-imagining of what we think police are, what they do and how they operate.
[31:32.580 --> 31:41.360]  You know, I've heard the concept batted around of having police carry professional liability insurance so that bad actors get priced out of the profession.
[31:41.600 --> 31:42.580]  We have doctors do it.
[31:42.700 --> 31:43.500]  Lawyers do it.
[31:43.840 --> 31:44.720]  Truck drivers have it.
[31:45.080 --> 31:46.080]  Why shouldn't police officers?
[31:46.200 --> 31:47.640]  Why are they exempt from this?
[31:48.100 --> 31:51.380]  And part of the answer is existing culture, part of it's police unions.
[31:51.960 --> 31:59.700]  But, you know, we just need to break down this, these preconceived notions of this broken system and just kind of start from scratch.
[31:59.700 --> 32:01.560]  You mentioned wanting hackers to solve this.
[32:02.160 --> 32:07.140]  Sometimes the project is so broken that we just start over from scratch and we start building anew.
[32:07.140 --> 32:07.900]  Yeah.
[32:08.120 --> 32:20.060]  Well, if it can be defined as something that is completely broken, I think that needs to be made clearer because when people walk around saying abolish the police, well, it's very easy for the other side to say, oh, they just want complete anarchy.
[32:20.220 --> 32:22.120]  But no, there's more to that thinking.
[32:22.680 --> 32:23.880]  Abolish what we have now.
[32:24.080 --> 32:25.160]  Build something better.
[32:25.460 --> 32:31.660]  I don't think anybody is saying that we don't need to enforce laws or that, you know, we can just trust everybody to do the right thing.
[32:32.100 --> 32:35.440]  I think we need to admit the system doesn't work.
[32:35.700 --> 32:38.300]  Imagine if you said, let's reform organized crime.
[32:38.860 --> 32:40.300]  That doesn't make any sense.
[32:40.540 --> 32:43.040]  No, you have to abolish it and do something else.
[32:43.920 --> 32:44.980]  Carla, are you still there?
[32:45.940 --> 32:46.940]  I'm still here.
[32:47.260 --> 32:47.880]  What do you think of all that?
[32:47.960 --> 32:48.180]  Can you hear me?
[32:48.300 --> 32:49.060]  Yes, we hear you fine.
[32:50.060 --> 32:57.800]  Okay, because I was trying to finish explicating before, but you didn't seem able to hear me.
[32:58.000 --> 32:59.720]  Well, we were having a conversation, but go ahead.
[32:59.760 --> 33:00.280]  Sorry about that.
[33:00.280 --> 33:01.680]  Okay.
[33:04.460 --> 33:11.520]  Someone was talking about having a specially trained group for emergencies.
[33:11.900 --> 33:14.600]  That's exactly what they do in the UK right now.
[33:14.840 --> 33:28.220]  The only police who have any guns are a special like squat type team, which is only brought in for major emergencies.
[33:28.580 --> 33:31.820]  And they're very, very, very highly trained.
[33:32.160 --> 33:43.440]  But I think that the crux of the problem is that they need to have better screening for who gets to be a police officer in the first place.
[33:43.700 --> 33:53.900]  Anyone who is willing to shoot rather than be themselves vulnerable.
[33:54.500 --> 34:05.640]  Anyone who won't put the safety of the public above their own safety shouldn't become a member of the police.
[34:05.900 --> 34:14.760]  Anyone who's afraid that they'll get shot first, those fearful people shouldn't be on the force.
[34:14.760 --> 34:14.960]  Yeah.
[34:15.060 --> 34:20.560]  Well, I think also we have to look at the training because, uh, they're fearful people because of the amount of training that they've gotten.
[34:20.820 --> 34:23.540]  Uh, and, uh, many times it's insufficient.
[34:23.540 --> 34:26.000]  They should not be making decisions in that way.
[34:26.140 --> 34:30.580]  There, there are much more mature professional, uh, ways of dealing with things.
[34:30.680 --> 34:37.200]  And I think a lot of cops would be able to do that if they were trained properly and, and taught that certain things are unacceptable.
[34:37.240 --> 34:42.540]  This mentality, this, uh, you know, blue line that you never cross, uh, that's, that's wrong.
[34:42.660 --> 34:47.160]  And that's, you know, we've, we've grown past that and we need to, we need to think of something better.
[34:47.900 --> 34:48.300]  Okay.
[34:48.660 --> 34:48.860]  Thanks.
[34:48.940 --> 34:49.100]  Thanks.
[34:49.360 --> 34:50.060]  Uh, thanks for your call.
[34:50.160 --> 34:52.700]  We're going to try and open up to go ahead, finish up.
[34:53.800 --> 34:57.680]  Uh, I, I just wanted to say that it's not just guns.
[34:58.220 --> 35:09.240]  Uh, it's also police chases are dangerous for everyone, whether involved or not involved for bystanders and people get killed.
[35:09.400 --> 35:09.840]  Absolutely.
[35:10.220 --> 35:16.440]  That's what Kyle was saying before about running red lights and all sorts of, of things that cops believe they're above the law.
[35:16.600 --> 35:20.160]  And we reinforce that we shouldn't permit that to, to keep happening.
[35:20.640 --> 35:23.180]  Uh, but again, we want to open up the phones for, for other people.
[35:23.300 --> 35:24.740]  Thank you very much for, uh, for that call.
[35:25.300 --> 35:28.780]  Our phone number 802-321-4225.
[35:28.960 --> 35:29.400]  Rob, go ahead.
[35:30.580 --> 35:30.980]  Yeah.
[35:31.140 --> 35:35.780]  As, as we've established, I think, uh, a thing that's really missing in the system as it is now is accountability.
[35:36.080 --> 35:38.060]  Uh, going back to the qualified immunity issue.
[35:38.140 --> 35:48.800]  I mean, um, if you look at the, uh, pictures that were taken of, uh, of this Chauvin character as his, uh, sentence or, or as his, uh, uh, uh, conviction was handed down, he was so confused.
[35:48.960 --> 35:51.560]  He did not see that coming right up until the end of this.
[35:51.760 --> 35:53.400]  He was convinced that he did nothing wrong.
[35:53.840 --> 35:56.380]  And, uh, you, you see this time and again in these cases.
[35:56.380 --> 35:58.480]  And, you know, we've taken technical measures.
[35:58.660 --> 36:05.580]  We have body cams on the cops that now show footage, usually right after one of these shootings of the cop, uh, the cop's hand covering the camera.
[36:05.960 --> 36:14.000]  Um, and don't forget, don't forget the way that the George Floyd death was originally reported, that he had a medical incident while interacting with the police.
[36:14.140 --> 36:19.020]  If that camera had not been filming, we never would have found out what really happened.
[36:19.720 --> 36:20.240]  Yeah.
[36:20.360 --> 36:32.360]  And as, as, uh, as, uh, as long as the accountability, the accountability of the police lies in the police themselves, you know, they're very good at saying we've, we've, uh, examined what we did and we are convinced that we did nothing wrong.
[36:32.580 --> 36:34.380]  And, uh, so according to ourselves, we're fine.
[36:34.520 --> 36:44.620]  So how do you convince people, um, who believe that us saying things like this is an attack on the police when all we're asking for is truth and accountability?
[36:45.520 --> 36:54.140]  You know, it's, um, it's, it's, it's worrisome because there are people out there who really feel, uh, paranoid that everyone's out to get them.
[36:54.380 --> 37:02.440]  And why would people be out to get cops if they were behaving properly, if they weren't doing things that were harmful to the community?
[37:03.000 --> 37:11.540]  Why can't we have this dialogue where, you know, they sincerely want to do something where they live in the community, where they're a part of the community where you know who they are.
[37:11.540 --> 37:13.300]  Instead, they're anonymous.
[37:13.300 --> 37:16.020]  You know, they don't even release their names when they kill people.
[37:16.920 --> 37:19.940]  It's, it's, it's not a healthy situation.
[37:19.940 --> 37:20.480]  Yes, Alex.
[37:21.640 --> 37:27.460]  I'd like to, to read a short couple paragraphs here from the appeal.org.
[37:27.600 --> 37:36.280]  They've done a lot of work and research and advocacy around trying to disband the, the doctrine of qualified immunity for police officers.
[37:36.560 --> 37:43.440]  And here's one that is a particularly egregious case, uh, from 2004.
[37:43.760 --> 37:54.700]  So on the morning of November 23rd, 2004, Malika Brooks was driving her 11 year old son to school when Seattle police, Seattle, that'll get your ears perked up, Kyle.
[37:54.940 --> 37:57.500]  Seattle police pulled her over for speeding.
[37:57.800 --> 38:06.740]  When the officers gave her a ticket and asked her to sign it, Brooks refused, believing that she had been wrongly pulled over and thinking mistakenly that her signature would be an admission of guilt.
[38:07.020 --> 38:09.140]  The officers threatened to throw her in jail.
[38:09.180 --> 38:12.900]  When Brooks still declined to sign, a sergeant ordered her arrest.
[38:13.300 --> 38:20.020]  To push Brooks to step out of the car, one of the officers pulled out a taser and asked if she knew what it was.
[38:20.140 --> 38:23.860]  She didn't, but told the officer she was seven months pregnant.
[38:24.280 --> 38:31.860]  The officers chatted in front of her, casually discussing which body part, uh, which, which part of her body they would tase.
[38:32.060 --> 38:33.820]  Well, don't do it in her stomach.
[38:34.020 --> 38:35.940]  One of them said, do it in her thigh.
[38:36.140 --> 38:41.440]  The officers twisted Brooks's arm behind her back and tased her three separate times.
[38:41.700 --> 38:50.500]  First on her thigh, then in the arm and then in the neck before dragging her into the street, laying her face down and cuffing her.
[38:51.140 --> 38:52.740]  Now, what do you think happened there?
[38:52.740 --> 38:58.220]  Well, first of all, I just want to take a moment to, to really fixate on what we're talking about here.
[38:58.340 --> 39:03.640]  We're talking about people inflicting torture upon somebody because they didn't sign their name.
[39:04.200 --> 39:09.280]  I mean, seriously, if, if you give someone a ticket and they don't sign it, it's still a ticket.
[39:10.460 --> 39:11.800]  What, what the hell?
[39:12.220 --> 39:16.040]  This is, this is an example of, they have to start thinking differently.
[39:16.200 --> 39:22.320]  And if they don't sign the ticket, whatever, get on with your life, let them get on with their life, you know?
[39:22.480 --> 39:30.040]  Well, if you're angry about the facts leading up to this, you're going to be even more angry about how, how the lawsuit ended up.
[39:30.120 --> 39:30.980]  I'm sure I will.
[39:31.100 --> 39:31.680]  I'm sure I will.
[39:31.740 --> 39:32.080]  What happened?
[39:32.720 --> 39:39.500]  And, you know, she, she made this into, uh, uh, she brought a federal lawsuit for violation of her civil rights.
[39:40.260 --> 39:51.680]  And six federal judges agreed that the officer's use of severe force without any threat to their own physical safety violated the United States constitution.
[39:52.180 --> 39:56.220]  But they still threw out the case.
[39:56.340 --> 40:03.580]  They dismissed the case because of the doctrine of qualified immunity, that there were no, this wasn't a clearly established right.
[40:03.760 --> 40:08.520]  And there were no circumstances that could be analogized from previous cases.
[40:09.220 --> 40:11.180]  And so her lawsuit went nowhere.
[40:11.420 --> 40:16.700]  She took this, uh, you know, basically to a circuit court, a federal circuit court of appeals.
[40:17.320 --> 40:24.440]  And this conduct was still bound to, um, not be legally actionable because of the doctrine of qualified immunity.
[40:24.640 --> 40:26.080]  So yeah, absolutely.
[40:26.280 --> 40:27.700]  You need to retrain these people.
[40:27.860 --> 40:28.300]  Yeah.
[40:28.400 --> 40:34.280]  And, and our previous caller, I think, you know, look, she had a great point too, uh, about taking guns away from the police.
[40:34.580 --> 40:36.280]  Uh, and there are two points there.
[40:36.440 --> 40:51.040]  One, I believe that there are certain smaller municipalities around the country that are thinking of doing the exact same thing, at least insofar as policing for minor violations, traffic violations, things like that go, those cops shouldn't be carrying guns.
[40:51.220 --> 40:56.960]  And even to a certain extent in New York City, we don't have ordinary traffic cops carrying pistols.
[40:57.040 --> 41:00.160]  Would you be as afraid of a cop if they weren't armed?
[41:00.940 --> 41:07.460]  And I, you know, I, I, I don't think that translates to not respecting the cop because he doesn't have a gun.
[41:07.560 --> 41:08.980]  I think that's how they interpret it.
[41:09.080 --> 41:11.400]  They say, if I don't have a gun, they're not going to respect me.
[41:11.460 --> 41:15.000]  And if that's the only thing that gives you respect, you're, you're, you're definitely not doing it right.
[41:15.580 --> 41:27.560]  Think about the story that I told when I was, you know, verbally abused and accosted by a police officer, you know, turning down seventh Avenue when I was with my wife and child a couple of years ago.
[41:27.700 --> 41:35.300]  And that was the, the, the off the hook episode when we were talking about the, the data from, I think the civilian complaint review board in New York City being released public, right?
[41:35.740 --> 41:43.600]  You know, I didn't want to yell back and scream at this guy or chase him down the street, because number one, he's an unhinged man.
[41:43.980 --> 41:48.020]  Uh, number two, he's armed, he's carrying a loaded gun.
[41:48.200 --> 41:50.340]  And number three was a canine unit too.
[41:50.480 --> 41:56.760]  So he's got a dog that's also considered to be a deadly weapon in the car with him.
[41:57.020 --> 42:09.160]  Um, but to go back to the point that the caller was making though, if you do take the police, uh, the guns away from the police in certain contexts like this, it's going to change, I think the type of person that is attracted to becoming a police officer,
[42:09.280 --> 42:16.700]  because to a certain extent, I think a lot of these people, they are to, you know, to a degree fascinated by carrying a gun.
[42:16.840 --> 42:20.500]  They're enamored by the idea of being able to legally carry a gun.
[42:20.620 --> 42:25.340]  And if they weren't able to do that, they perhaps wouldn't become a police officer in the first place.
[42:25.340 --> 42:31.100]  If dogs are considered, um, weapons, are they protected under the second amendment?
[42:33.680 --> 42:34.080]  Yes.
[42:34.080 --> 42:34.840]  I don't know.
[42:34.980 --> 42:35.160]  Yeah.
[42:35.260 --> 42:36.040]  Think about that.
[42:36.600 --> 42:43.120]  Second amendment attorney, but, um, you know, let's find out, you know, right to keep and bear dogs.
[42:43.420 --> 42:43.920]  There you go.
[42:44.880 --> 42:45.480]  Yes, Rob.
[42:46.500 --> 42:52.860]  Um, I just want to point out our, our guest, Jason Long had to, uh, had to leave, but we're very grateful to have had him on, on off the hook.
[42:53.000 --> 42:54.000]  He was great over time.
[42:54.320 --> 42:55.180]  And he was amazing.
[42:55.400 --> 42:59.940]  I want to point out that, that, uh, listeners can find his work and, uh, get in touch with him.
[43:00.140 --> 43:06.260]  He's jlong5795 on Twitter and also jlong5795 on GitHub.
[43:06.980 --> 43:09.520]  And, uh, you know, follow, follow the work he does.
[43:09.740 --> 43:12.580]  And, uh, yes, a.humanrightsfirst.dev.
[43:12.860 --> 43:20.320]  I've been, I've been, uh, looking at this map, um, as we've been doing the show and it's, it's really eyeopening and, uh, it's a really important project.
[43:20.320 --> 43:20.760]  Gila?
[43:21.000 --> 43:29.760]  Um, I also, speaking of Twitter, would just like to point out that we are always monitoring at Hacker Radio Show during the show.
[43:29.900 --> 43:37.460]  So if you have something you want to say, but you're phone shy and you don't want to call us, you can always ping us on Twitter.
[43:37.560 --> 43:43.200]  And we'd like to thank the listener who sent the XKCD strip that refers to what we were talking about earlier.
[43:43.280 --> 43:44.500]  So thank you for that.
[43:44.800 --> 43:46.680]  And yeah, you can always find us on Twitter.
[43:46.900 --> 43:47.080]  Really?
[43:47.280 --> 43:49.100]  So for whatever reason, don't want to call us.
[43:49.360 --> 43:51.780]  XKCD has done a comic based on this radio show.
[43:51.920 --> 43:53.260]  I am, I am blown away.
[43:53.740 --> 43:55.360]  No, I mean, he works fast.
[43:55.400 --> 43:57.160]  I know that, but, uh, it's an honor.
[43:57.400 --> 43:58.180]  It is an honor.
[43:58.360 --> 43:58.640]  Wow.
[43:59.580 --> 44:07.280]  Randall Munro does good work, but, uh, a listener sent us, uh, we were talking about, um, the, the heavy encryption being a munition technically.
[44:07.540 --> 44:09.660]  And of course there's an XKCD for that.
[44:09.920 --> 44:16.280]  Uh, uh, XKCD 504, um, is about, uh, people, people classifying crypto as munitions.
[44:16.440 --> 44:24.660]  So it's protected to, uh, you know, because if, uh, anyone comes to try and take it away from you, then, uh, you break out the second amendment and I'm messing up the joke.
[44:24.820 --> 44:25.500]  Uh, go check it out.
[44:25.800 --> 44:26.160]  XKCD.
[44:26.340 --> 44:26.800]  The joke is there.
[44:26.880 --> 44:27.700]  It's fantastic.
[44:27.940 --> 44:33.560]  504, but yeah, it's so, but thank you to our listeners for keeping up with us on Twitter during the show also.
[44:33.680 --> 44:33.900]  Yes.
[44:34.040 --> 44:34.140]  Yes.
[44:34.280 --> 44:37.000]  Thank you very much on our, our Twitter ID hacker radio show.
[44:37.180 --> 44:42.740]  Uh, I also want to expand on something Kyle said about, um, uh, this, the system not working with cops.
[44:43.180 --> 44:45.520]  It's, it's been proven over and over again.
[44:45.940 --> 44:47.420]  It's not working the way it is.
[44:47.520 --> 44:49.340]  It has to change, but it goes further than that.
[44:49.480 --> 44:53.340]  The whole gun culture in this country, we've tried it.
[44:53.500 --> 44:54.340]  We've tried it.
[44:54.480 --> 45:00.480]  Uh, the, the, the way the people who interpret the second amendment in a particular manner, uh, wanted it to be tried.
[45:00.800 --> 45:01.820]  It didn't work.
[45:01.940 --> 45:05.480]  We have to at least acknowledge that, that it didn't work.
[45:05.660 --> 45:07.600]  Once I, we can agree that it didn't work.
[45:08.060 --> 45:09.740]  We all have to think of something better.
[45:09.880 --> 45:17.620]  And that's where all the discussion starts, but just allowing everybody to do whatever they want pretty much, which is what we've been doing over the past.
[45:17.800 --> 45:20.360]  And it hasn't been all the whole history of the country.
[45:20.440 --> 45:21.780]  It's only been in the past few decades.
[45:22.200 --> 45:30.120]  What that has resulted in is a heavily armed country where gun violence runs rampant and everybody's afraid and people get more guns because they're afraid of the other people that got more guns.
[45:30.400 --> 45:31.480]  That doesn't work.
[45:31.580 --> 45:33.520]  So if we can all agree, it doesn't work.
[45:33.640 --> 45:33.820]  Okay.
[45:33.900 --> 45:34.760]  Let's work together.
[45:35.280 --> 45:40.060]  And the people that we think are our enemies might be our allies, because I'm sure they don't want to live in a world like that either.
[45:41.860 --> 45:42.260]  Absolutely.
[45:42.260 --> 45:43.100]  True story.
[45:43.380 --> 45:58.660]  I went to college in a very large metropolitan area where we were all told when you're driving, don't use your horn because you never know who in the other car, what other driver might have a gun in the glove compartment.
[45:58.880 --> 46:01.620]  And if you anger them, they will pull it out and shoot you.
[46:01.860 --> 46:03.820]  To this day, I don't honk when I'm driving.
[46:03.980 --> 46:07.040]  You ever hear the phrase, an armed society is a polite society?
[46:07.220 --> 46:07.880]  It's not true.
[46:08.060 --> 46:10.360]  An armed society is a scared society.
[46:10.640 --> 46:11.080]  All right.
[46:11.420 --> 46:13.020]  And we deserve better than that.
[46:13.260 --> 46:17.540]  Our kids should not be having to go through metal detectors to get into schools.
[46:17.880 --> 46:18.300]  All right.
[46:18.340 --> 46:21.320]  They should not have to worry about... they should not know what the word lockdown means.
[46:21.380 --> 46:23.900]  When I went to school, I didn't know what the word lockdown meant.
[46:24.040 --> 46:25.600]  There weren't cops in the schools.
[46:25.940 --> 46:27.940]  This is being considered the new normal.
[46:28.120 --> 46:29.720]  And it's not even that new anymore.
[46:30.180 --> 46:31.280]  And it's not right.
[46:31.440 --> 46:33.880]  And it's not the way it works in other parts of the world.
[46:34.000 --> 46:35.080]  And we can do better.
[46:35.200 --> 46:38.780]  And we can be just as free as we want to be.
[46:38.960 --> 46:41.020]  Look at the countries where this isn't an issue.
[46:41.160 --> 46:42.060]  It's Scandinavia.
[46:42.280 --> 46:43.000]  It's Western Europe.
[46:43.360 --> 46:44.480]  These are democracies.
[46:44.720 --> 46:47.520]  These aren't communist states like the right wing will have you believe.
[46:47.780 --> 46:54.960]  You know, you have a situation in England where the gun possession is a mere fraction of what it is here.
[46:55.100 --> 46:56.840]  And of course, gun deaths are a mere fraction.
[46:57.260 --> 47:02.060]  This whole argument that if you take away guns from law abiding citizens, only criminals will have guns.
[47:02.180 --> 47:06.860]  If that were true, then the gun crime rate in England would be pretty high.
[47:06.860 --> 47:07.540]  And it's not.
[47:07.700 --> 47:09.640]  It's about half what it is here, maybe less.
[47:10.020 --> 47:12.940]  So all these arguments can be diffused pretty easily.
[47:13.260 --> 47:25.200]  We have to stop elevating them to the state of legitimacy where, you know, somebody says something factual and you get somebody to disagree with them based on no facts and they're given an equal platform.
[47:25.400 --> 47:26.580]  That's just not fair to anybody.
[47:26.800 --> 47:27.440]  We have a phone call.
[47:27.560 --> 47:27.880]  Good evening.
[47:28.020 --> 47:28.780]  You're on off the hook.
[47:29.440 --> 47:30.700]  I don't think we have a phone call anymore.
[47:32.000 --> 47:32.640]  I'm sorry.
[47:32.920 --> 47:35.400]  Sometimes it takes a little while to get to get to people.
[47:35.560 --> 47:38.260]  It's a very sad sound there that the empty phone line has.
[47:38.380 --> 47:44.980]  But if, uh, if you want to call us, our phone line apparently is open 802-321-4225.
[47:45.160 --> 47:45.740]  I want to hear that again.
[47:47.100 --> 47:52.180]  Oh, so what happens if it rings while it's up like that?
[47:52.460 --> 47:53.480]  Will we hear the ring?
[47:54.820 --> 47:56.820]  Uh, you can help us with an experiment, folks.
[47:57.160 --> 48:01.600]  We're going to have this sound up until somebody calls us and, uh, we'll hear, maybe we'll hear the ring.
[48:02.820 --> 48:04.460]  I'll try not to make it too loud.
[48:06.300 --> 48:10.380]  Uh, you're going to hear the, you're going to hear the, um, answering service, I think.
[48:10.980 --> 48:11.300]  Okay.
[48:11.420 --> 48:12.460]  I'm curious what I will hear.
[48:13.140 --> 48:14.740]  And then you'll hear me hit the tone.
[48:14.980 --> 48:17.900]  Uh, well, I'm going to, I'm going to lower the volume before you do that.
[48:18.000 --> 48:18.380]  Are you sure?
[48:18.540 --> 48:18.640]  Yeah.
[48:18.680 --> 48:22.980]  But if somebody just calls 802-321-4225, you don't have to stay on.
[48:23.080 --> 48:26.440]  Just ring the phone and, uh, and we'll see if it rings audibly.
[48:26.980 --> 48:28.840]  When I was a kid, I had a suction cup.
[48:29.080 --> 48:32.560]  In case of a fast pickup, we asked you to let us know that you're not a voicemail system.
[48:32.720 --> 48:34.600]  So you need to press one to take this call.
[48:35.800 --> 48:36.120]  Interesting.
[48:36.360 --> 48:41.340]  That's the first time we ever had Google like broadcast that over the radio.
[48:41.560 --> 48:43.440]  So now we know that's what comes over.
[48:43.640 --> 48:44.780]  Let's see if our caller stayed on.
[48:45.300 --> 48:46.040]  Good evening.
[48:46.440 --> 48:47.100]  You made it.
[48:47.640 --> 48:48.860]  Uh, I made it back.
[48:49.280 --> 48:52.560]  Um, that sound was really cute.
[48:52.720 --> 48:57.700]  Uh, so for, um, like policing and stuff.
[48:58.320 --> 48:58.800]  Yes.
[48:58.900 --> 49:02.100]  I had a point and I kind of forgot it because of all that humorous stuff.
[49:03.260 --> 49:13.160]  Uh, when it happens to the best of us, like for, for, for, for, for right to bear arms, like, uh, Australia, uh, completely removed them from all society.
[49:13.360 --> 49:14.940]  Another communist country, Australia.
[49:15.240 --> 49:15.380]  Yeah.
[49:19.880 --> 49:20.320]  Notoriously.
[49:20.320 --> 49:28.620]  Well, it's just amazing that these, these ridiculous statements about how people live in fear and, uh, these horrible societies are some of the best places in the world.
[49:29.040 --> 49:33.480]  And, um, you know, I'm not saying they don't have problems, but they don't have this problem.
[49:34.100 --> 49:36.900]  And wouldn't it be nice if we could join them on that?
[49:36.900 --> 49:39.140]  I don't think we'd be, we'd be giving up very much.
[49:40.680 --> 49:42.560]  Yeah, uh, exactly.
[49:42.940 --> 49:47.760]  So when it comes to, um, uh, abolition and policing, right?
[49:48.240 --> 49:59.220]  Uh, uh, the thing is, uh, the culture of policing is actually not about like them doing their job and having to pull a gun.
[49:59.480 --> 50:03.400]  It's, if they're afraid for their life for any reason, they pull a gun.
[50:04.900 --> 50:05.380]  Yeah.
[50:05.420 --> 50:11.540]  And I think cops get afraid too much, you know, Marines don't get afraid, do they?
[50:11.680 --> 50:12.920]  They're, they never get afraid.
[50:13.460 --> 50:17.320]  I just think, you know, part of the training should be, you have to, and this is what they claim.
[50:17.440 --> 50:28.880]  You have to stand up to these threats and, and, and just, you know, um, I, I guess, confront them in a better way than just shooting willy nilly.
[50:29.060 --> 50:36.040]  And oftentimes, you know, killing for no reason or killing the wrong people, or just creating a very dangerous situation.
[50:37.180 --> 50:38.000]  That's the thing.
[50:38.020 --> 50:46.920]  When it comes down to it, they're being traumatized and not actually getting like treatment for PCSD, et cetera, in a, in an effective manner.
[50:47.260 --> 50:55.160]  And therefore, and then they go back out way too soon and end up, uh, like getting flashbacks and shooting a kid.
[50:56.220 --> 50:56.700]  Yeah.
[50:56.960 --> 50:57.140]  Yeah.
[50:57.380 --> 51:05.820]  And, uh, even if they are actually afraid for their lives, even if it's reasonable, that doesn't mean that they should have a gun in that situation.
[51:05.820 --> 51:13.280]  And yeah, they'll have like desk leave and like work, uh, uh, paperwork, pushing stuff around for like six months, maybe a year.
[51:13.580 --> 51:18.360]  If, and if they're feel like they can go back or they needed or they're needed back, they'll be pushed back into it.
[51:19.040 --> 51:19.480]  Yeah.
[51:19.480 --> 51:28.780]  I've always been of the opinion that if, um, if a cop kills somebody, that's it, you're done on the street at least, uh, because, um, it becomes normal to you.
[51:29.340 --> 51:32.100]  And, uh, it's not something that ever should become normal to anybody.
[51:32.620 --> 51:34.140]  Shooting somebody, that's a failure.
[51:34.500 --> 51:36.260]  It needs to be treated as a failure.
[51:36.420 --> 51:45.520]  I'm not saying it's necessarily their fault, but it's definitely something that can't become habit or something that you, uh, you know, you're keeping a running tally of.
[51:45.660 --> 51:47.580]  And unfortunately that seems to be the culture we're in.
[51:47.720 --> 51:50.740]  Or, or makes you a hero.
[51:51.000 --> 51:51.260]  Uh-huh.
[51:51.580 --> 51:53.140]  Or as part of locker room talk.
[51:53.280 --> 51:53.400]  Yeah.
[51:53.500 --> 51:53.680]  Yeah.
[51:53.740 --> 51:55.540]  It's, that's very, very unhealthy.
[51:58.260 --> 51:59.460]  Any, anything else caller?
[52:00.420 --> 52:02.360]  Um, that, that, that's about it.
[52:02.640 --> 52:15.360]  Uh, they, they also, um, it's not just, uh, that they do it for self-defense, but also, uh, they're very insular and they end up, uh, only trusting other cops.
[52:15.680 --> 52:15.860]  Yeah.
[52:15.960 --> 52:16.780]  That's so unhealthy.
[52:16.960 --> 52:17.960]  That's so unhealthy.
[52:18.200 --> 52:26.660]  You start thinking of, um, of, of the people that you're walking amongst or driving through as, as the enemy, you become an occupying force.
[52:27.080 --> 52:31.580]  You treat them with contempt and, um, and, and they, they view you with fear.
[52:31.760 --> 52:33.960]  How, how can anybody think these things are healthy?
[52:34.160 --> 52:46.260]  And of course the two problems that we're talking about tonight are related because these cops who are constantly afraid, they're afraid because there are so many guns and there are so many guns because people are insisting that everybody has the right to get as many guns as they want.
[52:46.400 --> 52:51.000]  And they can just do whatever, you know, two things that don't work that have not worked.
[52:51.460 --> 52:57.380]  And we keep saying this, but we keep basically getting to that dead end where, well, nothing we can do about it.
[52:57.440 --> 52:58.040]  I disagree.
[52:58.040 --> 53:06.240]  I think with creative thinking and, and, and throwing some technology in there, maybe we can figure something out, but we have to want to do that.
[53:06.280 --> 53:08.520]  And we have to be open to all kinds of crazy ideas.
[53:08.520 --> 53:10.980]  And I'm just putting forth my own crazy ideas for now.
[53:11.920 --> 53:16.080]  The, the real answer is abolition and starting from the ground up.
[53:16.240 --> 53:16.860]  That's it.
[53:18.160 --> 53:18.600]  Okay.
[53:18.820 --> 53:22.920]  And the, the, the real reason for that is, uh, I just lost it.
[53:24.240 --> 53:26.000]  Well, if you get it back, call us back.
[53:26.260 --> 53:27.280]  We'll be here a few more minutes.
[53:28.700 --> 53:29.020]  Bye.
[53:29.300 --> 53:29.500]  All right.
[53:29.620 --> 53:30.180]  Thanks for your call.
[53:31.180 --> 53:34.120]  And of course you can write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[53:34.260 --> 53:34.620]  That's email.
[53:34.740 --> 53:35.080]  Go ahead, Rob.
[53:36.260 --> 53:36.580]  Yeah.
[53:36.660 --> 53:41.760]  You know, you talk about these crazy ideas, but like every idea is pretty much a crazy idea until someone makes it work.
[53:42.360 --> 53:42.680]  Exactly.
[53:42.860 --> 53:43.040]  Yeah.
[53:43.280 --> 53:48.520]  I mean, we, we, we, we spend a lot of time condemning the, the billionaires, you know, the Elon Musk's.
[53:48.660 --> 53:51.760]  I think what Elon Musk is doing with space is really, really cool.
[53:52.440 --> 54:01.140]  Can't stand the guy, you know, and I, I hate so many other things, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to deny myself the thrill of seeing if his latest rocket blows up.
[54:01.760 --> 54:03.960]  I want to see these, these technology.
[54:03.960 --> 54:07.700]  I want to, I want to move ahead, you know, just, just the other day.
[54:08.260 --> 54:10.700]  Um, uh, this, this is an interesting example, actually.
[54:11.000 --> 54:13.240]  Uh, we have this, uh, commuter railroad line.
[54:13.360 --> 54:14.560]  You might've heard of it, the long Island railroad.
[54:15.140 --> 54:17.040]  Um, you have, okay, good.
[54:17.500 --> 54:25.280]  Um, and for many, many years forever, actually going out to Montauk, you, you, you have to take the slow diesel train.
[54:25.460 --> 54:28.740]  There's a lot of diesel, uh, lines because they can't electrify.
[54:28.860 --> 54:32.880]  It's prohibitively expensive to electrify train lines.
[54:33.440 --> 54:35.040]  We're talking billions of dollars.
[54:35.220 --> 54:40.500]  So it's one of those things where, yeah, you know, it'd be nice if, if you had a one seat ride into Manhattan, it'd be nice.
[54:40.500 --> 54:46.700]  We could go faster, but it's not going to happen because nobody wants to spend that kind of money and take too long.
[54:47.080 --> 54:52.680]  Well, you know, just, just the other day, I read about this, uh, new technology that's just being tried out.
[54:52.820 --> 55:01.140]  Now I can't believe nobody thought of it before where batteries are put on electric train cars in lieu of the third rail.
[55:01.740 --> 55:10.240]  And these batteries basically charge while the train is, is using the third rail or at a, uh, a docking station somewhere.
[55:10.480 --> 55:16.460]  And then when it's not on an electric line, it acts like an electric train because of the batteries that it has.
[55:16.700 --> 55:19.400]  What an amazing solution to a problem.
[55:19.560 --> 55:26.920]  That's a fraction of the cost and can almost instantly convert non-electrified lines into the same thing.
[55:27.100 --> 55:29.920]  Trains that go as fast, no need to change.
[55:30.380 --> 55:35.580]  You know, if, if, if somebody had mentioned this a few years ago, they would have been told no, impossible, it won't happen.
[55:36.060 --> 55:38.840]  And now it looks like it's going to happen.
[55:39.020 --> 55:46.000]  So creative thinking, new technology, a refusal to simply accept what you're told isn't possible.
[55:46.160 --> 55:48.520]  I think we can apply that to almost anything.
[55:49.100 --> 55:55.540]  And, um, you know, medical problems and, and, and scientific brick walls that we run up against.
[55:56.500 --> 56:00.660]  Obviously we have to travel faster than the speed of light at some point in humanity's existence.
[56:01.020 --> 56:02.360]  We have to figure that out.
[56:02.520 --> 56:02.920]  We will.
[56:03.360 --> 56:10.680]  And we'll, we'll figure it out by, uh, experimentation, thinking outside the box and, um, just believing in ourselves.
[56:12.040 --> 56:14.080]  Maybe some quantum mechanics and stuff.
[56:14.240 --> 56:16.740]  I'm not opposed to quantum mechanics in any of these things.
[56:17.200 --> 56:18.940]  Just throwing that in there.
[56:19.240 --> 56:19.640]  All right.
[56:20.100 --> 56:20.380]  Wow.
[56:20.540 --> 56:22.860]  Uh, this, this really, uh, keeps us going.
[56:23.180 --> 56:26.540]  Um, you want to try for one more phone call or, or are we, are we tired?
[56:28.300 --> 56:29.520]  We can take one more.
[56:29.680 --> 56:32.920]  Remember when overtime was only like 10 minutes long and now it's turned into an hour.
[56:33.140 --> 56:35.000]  We just, we can't stop talking.
[56:36.760 --> 56:38.180]  Well, we had a lot of good calls tonight.
[56:38.200 --> 56:49.740]  And then if, if you want to make one more call, eight zero two three two one four two two five, we asked that, uh, hopefully new people call, um, so that, uh, we get a variety of voices and feel free to say whatever is on your mind.
[56:49.940 --> 56:50.620]  That's what we're here for.
[56:52.060 --> 57:10.200]  And if you'd like to listen to this show over again, share it with somebody or listen to all of our shows in reverse order, every single one, you could talk to your smart device, use the wake word and say, play the hacker radio show.
[57:11.320 --> 57:12.480]  That's all you have to say.
[57:13.080 --> 57:17.160]  No, I think you say off the hook radio show.
[57:18.960 --> 57:19.320]  Wow.
[57:20.300 --> 57:21.100]  And it will play.
[57:22.480 --> 57:24.680]  And I think we, we have a phone call.
[57:24.900 --> 57:25.420]  Yeah, I'm sorry.
[57:25.540 --> 57:26.760]  I was answering the phone and talking.
[57:26.800 --> 57:27.200]  You were talking.
[57:27.360 --> 57:28.420]  Well, you weren't answering the phone.
[57:28.580 --> 57:30.080]  That's what, that's why I was waving my hands.
[57:30.440 --> 57:31.020]  Good evening.
[57:31.200 --> 57:31.820]  You're on off the hook.
[57:31.900 --> 57:32.100]  Go ahead.
[57:33.420 --> 57:33.780]  Greetings.
[57:34.160 --> 57:40.900]  I am calling about last week's submission for, uh, Trump related special network names.
[57:41.940 --> 57:52.040]  And what I proposed to Alex was, uh, Trump pyre, like umpire to say, you're out of here.
[57:55.480 --> 57:56.280]  That's a good one.
[57:57.100 --> 58:02.120]  For people who might not be familiar with what this was, Alex, could you, could you explain what the caller is?
[58:02.680 --> 58:09.440]  Well, last, last week we were talking about Trump putting together, uh, his own social media network.
[58:09.640 --> 58:18.160]  And, you know, there was news stories about this and we had hypothesized about how quickly he changed his stance about section 230 of the communications agency act.
[58:18.360 --> 58:28.000]  And then we opened up the airwaves or rather the phone lines to our callers to suggest names for that particular social media account.
[58:28.300 --> 58:40.320]  And, and what's so funny is, um, caller literally right before you, right before you called in, I was thinking to myself, I should probably mention the Trump pyre suggestion from last week.
[58:40.440 --> 58:43.360]  So there is a weird synchronicity right there.
[58:43.520 --> 58:51.460]  Um, and I think one of, one of the better suggestions that we had last week, which wasn't really necessarily a social media platform.
[58:51.760 --> 59:02.980]  Um, although I do love the Trump pyre suggestion, what came from our very own Gila that was a, if Trump was, was putting together a dating site, he was going to call it, what was it, Gila?
[59:03.440 --> 59:04.300]  Orange crash.
[59:05.300 --> 59:05.940]  That's great.
[59:06.060 --> 59:07.520]  Oh, that's wrong on so many levels.
[59:08.400 --> 59:09.640]  Uh, I love it.
[59:09.700 --> 59:18.760]  I, I think that's a, uh, I'm so glad you called caller and probably a great spot to end it up and where we were last week.
[59:19.360 --> 59:19.900]  All right.
[59:19.940 --> 59:20.160]  Thanks.
[59:20.160 --> 59:21.240]  Uh, thanks for that call.
[59:22.140 --> 59:27.220]  Now if I can pitch one more website for George Washington, it'd be green signal singles.
[59:28.020 --> 59:29.060]  Green singles.
[59:30.080 --> 59:30.520]  Okay.
[59:30.800 --> 59:31.360]  All right.
[59:31.640 --> 59:31.860]  Interesting.
[59:33.140 --> 59:34.080]  Thank you for that.
[59:35.680 --> 59:36.240]  All right.
[59:36.240 --> 59:36.940]  Good night, everyone.
[59:37.300 --> 59:37.520]  All right.
[59:37.580 --> 59:37.880]  Good night.
[59:38.060 --> 59:40.720]  That's a great call to, uh, to end on.
[59:40.820 --> 59:51.660]  What was, um, what was that other, uh, right wing social media site that was launching Frank something Frank, Frank speech, which apparently has face planted in a big, bad way.
[59:51.820 --> 59:52.000]  Yeah.
[59:52.220 --> 59:52.340]  What?
[59:52.460 --> 59:55.920]  Cause I, I went to that first, it checks your browser.
[59:56.220 --> 59:56.780]  What is that?
[59:56.860 --> 59:57.960]  This process is automatic.
[59:58.120 --> 01:00:00.000]  Your browser will, will, will proceed.
[01:00:00.300 --> 01:00:06.880]  And here's the pillow guy now talking on, on my laptop, uh, except no sounds coming out.
[01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:07.200]  You know what?
[01:00:07.240 --> 01:00:07.640]  That's fine.
[01:00:07.880 --> 01:00:14.620]  It says, thanks for visiting Frank with over, um, with over 28 requests in just two days.
[01:00:14.620 --> 01:00:18.180]  No, that's actually, that's to be 2 billion, I guess, or 28.
[01:00:18.380 --> 01:00:21.660]  I'm not sure which, uh, not 2 billion requests in just two days.
[01:00:21.780 --> 01:00:25.460]  The Frank speech experiment is a massive success for you.
[01:00:26.640 --> 01:00:27.040]  Okay.
[01:00:27.060 --> 01:00:29.900]  There's a problem there because they, they didn't end that sentence.
[01:00:29.960 --> 01:00:31.780]  They put a dash after massive success.
[01:00:31.780 --> 01:00:35.700]  And then for you, they capitalize the F and you don't capitalize after a dash.
[01:00:35.900 --> 01:00:37.660]  That's what I'm pointing out here.
[01:00:37.960 --> 01:00:40.900]  Uh, and they, they finished by saying right now we're working on new features.
[01:00:41.640 --> 01:00:42.740]  Keep checking back.
[01:00:42.920 --> 01:00:43.800]  We'll be up shortly.
[01:00:44.080 --> 01:00:46.360]  And that's time they did a dash and they didn't uppercase it.
[01:00:46.460 --> 01:00:46.920]  So they did it right.
[01:00:47.180 --> 01:00:47.540]  Okay.
[01:00:47.600 --> 01:00:48.040]  So wait a minute.
[01:00:48.140 --> 01:00:52.220]  So because you've got so many requests, you're down, you don't exist.
[01:00:52.820 --> 01:00:54.820]  That's, um, that's kind of weird.
[01:00:55.100 --> 01:01:01.700]  And, and is a request an account or it's a request just number of times people tried to get through to this webpage and get nowhere.
[01:01:04.180 --> 01:01:05.160]  It could be both.
[01:01:05.180 --> 01:01:14.340]  I think, um, part of the problem and I'm really just spitballing here, but I think part of the problem was that Mike Lindell was like, Hey, let's put on a social media site.
[01:01:14.540 --> 01:01:16.320]  We can use my father's barn.
[01:01:17.480 --> 01:01:20.080]  And then the infrastructure just said, no, thank you.
[01:01:20.860 --> 01:01:28.180]  And they, you know, tried to open it up for like VIP signups and then everybody else a day later and the whole thing just melted down.
[01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:31.080]  So it's, I don't know what's actually happening.
[01:01:31.140 --> 01:01:33.460]  Like the super league of the internet, apparently.
[01:01:34.240 --> 01:01:35.200]  Um, wow.
[01:01:35.540 --> 01:01:41.720]  And you know, I've, I've missed a golden opportunity here because he's the pillow guy.
[01:01:41.900 --> 01:01:43.120]  It should have been called pillow talk.
[01:01:43.540 --> 01:01:46.600]  Wouldn't that have been a better name for social media site run by him?
[01:01:47.940 --> 01:01:48.600]  Frank speech.
[01:01:49.360 --> 01:01:53.460]  I mean, they're not, they're all bad and pretty good at the same time.
[01:01:53.620 --> 01:01:53.840]  Yeah.
[01:01:54.060 --> 01:01:54.580]  Yeah, that's true.
[01:01:55.060 --> 01:02:00.460]  Well, I'm always curious, you know, what these things are going to have on them and what kind of security holes they might have as well.
[01:02:00.520 --> 01:02:03.520]  So I always, you know, look around a little bit and I think we all should do that.
[01:02:04.460 --> 01:02:06.020]  I just love the griftiness.
[01:02:06.360 --> 01:02:07.220]  Go ahead, Kayla.
[01:02:07.740 --> 01:02:10.180]  I was going to say, I know what Frank is not going to have on it.
[01:02:10.240 --> 01:02:12.980]  And that is swearing and naked people.
[01:02:14.060 --> 01:02:16.400]  How are you going to regulate swearing?
[01:02:17.160 --> 01:02:18.940]  I mean, that's the internet, right?
[01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:27.580]  You can't have a site and especially calling it the voice of free speech, but you can't say, God damn it.
[01:02:28.700 --> 01:02:32.920]  I mean, really, that's, that's, you don't know what free speech is then.
[01:02:33.480 --> 01:02:35.380]  And yeah, I know about the hypocrisy.
[01:02:35.680 --> 01:02:38.620]  We're on WBAI, the voice of free speech, and we can't curse.
[01:02:38.720 --> 01:02:39.300]  That's the FCC.
[01:02:39.320 --> 01:02:40.180]  It says that.
[01:02:40.320 --> 01:02:43.400]  And plus, we don't need to do that to express ourselves.
[01:02:45.020 --> 01:02:45.980]  Everything else we say.
[01:02:45.980 --> 01:02:53.440]  You got to be extra, you got to be extra careful when you are the station that, uh, that was the establishing, uh, one to get in trouble over these things.
[01:02:53.920 --> 01:02:54.280]  Yeah.
[01:02:54.520 --> 01:02:54.700]  Yeah.
[01:02:54.760 --> 01:02:58.620]  We thought better of, uh, of the courts than, than they actually were.
[01:02:59.540 --> 01:03:01.500]  Uh, okay, folks, any final thoughts?
[01:03:01.840 --> 01:03:03.520]  Because we've been doing this for a while now.
[01:03:05.160 --> 01:03:10.200]  Uh, I, I just, uh, once again, gotta, gotta say thank you to Jason Long, uh, for being with us.
[01:03:10.260 --> 01:03:13.000]  That was, uh, that was, uh, very, very good of him to join us.
[01:03:13.140 --> 01:03:25.060]  And thank you all out there who, uh, keep getting in touch, whether you're emailing OTH at 2600.com or tweeting at us at Hacker Radio Show, or getting in touch with us over Mastodon at Hacker Radio Show at Mastodon.social.
[01:03:25.560 --> 01:03:32.300]  Um, just, uh, this, we, we, we appreciate your input, uh, and it adds so much to, to what we do here.
[01:03:32.480 --> 01:03:33.480]  This isn't just about us.
[01:03:33.560 --> 01:03:35.400]  This is about you and communicating with you.
[01:03:35.560 --> 01:03:36.340]  So thank you.
[01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:49.860]  And if, if, uh, you want to be part of all this and, uh, be part of what makes all this happen, go to give2wbai.org or call 212-209-2950 and, uh, donate what you can to help us, uh, keep doing what we're doing.
[01:03:51.240 --> 01:03:51.700]  Yeah.
[01:03:51.960 --> 01:03:54.680]  And re, reiterating, uh, Rob's point there.
[01:03:54.880 --> 01:04:02.860]  Uh, it's always cool when we get tips or ideas, stories, um, anecdotes, all that stuff is so cool.
[01:04:03.080 --> 01:04:08.020]  Uh, so please participate, share with us, uh, things you're interested in.
[01:04:08.140 --> 01:04:11.340]  We had so many stories tonight we wanted to get to it.
[01:04:11.460 --> 01:04:13.020]  There's always so much going on.
[01:04:13.020 --> 01:04:23.080]  Um, and, uh, we, we're going to update everyone on, uh, on, uh, what, what's been going on and what will, uh, transpire in the, in the next, uh, weeks.
[01:04:23.620 --> 01:04:27.840]  And, uh, please, uh, write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[01:04:28.020 --> 01:04:30.340]  I learned about the school of the air in Australia.
[01:04:30.560 --> 01:04:38.120]  That was, that was an amazing letter that we got and, uh, some history that goes back to the 1960s or maybe even before that kids learning via shortwave.
[01:04:38.280 --> 01:04:46.800]  So yeah, you know, it's kind of like we're, we're reliving history by, you know, using zoom kids could be using shortwave instead.
[01:04:47.080 --> 01:04:51.100]  I feel like the big, the, the takeaway was like, you use what you've got.
[01:04:51.240 --> 01:04:53.540]  I mean, that was the answer to what the question was last week.
[01:04:53.540 --> 01:04:55.620]  Kids had shortwave transmitters.
[01:04:55.760 --> 01:04:56.780]  They all have those.
[01:04:56.960 --> 01:05:02.780]  Well, they're mass produced on some scale, some level that that was what they had as like readily available.
[01:05:02.780 --> 01:05:03.820]  So that's the thing.
[01:05:03.900 --> 01:05:06.800]  Like you asked what we do, what have we done in the eighties?
[01:05:06.940 --> 01:05:12.700]  What would we have done to organize in the nineties with a 56 K modems or whatever?
[01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:17.460]  Like, you know, at each point we use as much of what we've got.
[01:05:17.620 --> 01:05:22.640]  And this is the key in the weird and unusual and unexpected ways.
[01:05:22.680 --> 01:05:25.920]  And that's, that's how we get on in these different moments.
[01:05:25.940 --> 01:05:31.680]  And now we've got, you know, a pretty good, uh, a pretty good system.
[01:05:31.680 --> 01:05:41.460]  Uh, but, uh, maybe the next pandemic, it'll be 20 times cheaper because broadband is now, uh, uh, you know, been, been, uh, in the, the limelight.
[01:05:41.560 --> 01:05:43.100]  My wishes for the next pandemic.
[01:05:43.400 --> 01:05:47.300]  Uh, if, if we start using shortwave again, I think that'll be a move forward.
[01:05:47.380 --> 01:05:48.660]  I would, I would be into that.
[01:05:48.820 --> 01:05:50.280]  I'd like that a lot more than zoom.
[01:05:50.640 --> 01:05:51.440]  It would be a lot more.
[01:05:51.560 --> 01:05:56.640]  And also I'm wondering those kids that are talking back to their teachers, not, not talking back to their teachers, you know what I mean?
[01:05:57.080 --> 01:05:59.660]  Uh, are they talking to the whole world as well?
[01:05:59.860 --> 01:06:03.480]  I mean, you can't really aim shortwave at a particular school.
[01:06:04.300 --> 01:06:05.860]  Uh, so what's that?
[01:06:06.240 --> 01:06:07.900]  They would have to be, right?
[01:06:08.160 --> 01:06:10.080]  I mean, it, it's not narrow, right?
[01:06:10.140 --> 01:06:10.680]  No, it's not.
[01:06:11.220 --> 01:06:13.280]  It can, it can propagate all around the world.
[01:06:13.420 --> 01:06:15.300]  So that must've led to some confusion.
[01:06:15.480 --> 01:06:22.100]  Maybe a different teacher answered their question from a different country or gave them wrong information from an enemy country.
[01:06:22.100 --> 01:06:22.680]  Who knows?
[01:06:23.320 --> 01:06:24.760]  Uh, I'd love to hear stories.
[01:06:24.900 --> 01:06:25.760]  I'd love to hear tapes.
[01:06:25.900 --> 01:06:27.200]  There must be so many of those.
[01:06:27.440 --> 01:06:31.940]  And I, I'd also love to see the equipment if they, if that still exists anyway.
[01:06:32.060 --> 01:06:33.420]  So we have talked about an awful lot.
[01:06:33.560 --> 01:06:40.480]  We've, we've, uh, encouraged people to think differently and, uh, which is the right way to say that by the way, not the way Apple says it.
[01:06:40.800 --> 01:07:00.620]  Um, and again, you know, the whole, uh, controversial issues with police and with, uh, with, with guns, you may think completely differently, but I hope that we all agree that thinking outside the box is a way of addressing problems and, and the things that I've been bringing up or just basically ways of what if we approach the problem this way?
[01:07:01.080 --> 01:07:04.880]  And maybe that's a solution that more people can live with.
[01:07:05.020 --> 01:07:07.040]  Maybe that'll solve the problem.
[01:07:07.180 --> 01:07:08.380]  Maybe that'll cause a new problem.
[01:07:08.520 --> 01:07:08.940]  Who knows?
[01:07:09.060 --> 01:07:15.880]  But we have to have these conversations and never, never accept that something can't be changed for the better, especially if you're a hacker.
[01:07:16.840 --> 01:07:17.320]  All right.
[01:07:17.360 --> 01:07:18.060]  We'll see you next time.
[01:07:18.560 --> 01:07:19.000]  Good night, everybody.
[01:07:21.460 --> 01:07:23.220]  You know, you could say good night back to me.
[01:07:24.220 --> 01:07:24.980]  Good night.
[01:07:25.180 --> 01:07:25.600]  Good night.
[01:07:26.160 --> 01:07:26.880]  Didn't hurt, did it?
[01:07:27.080 --> 01:07:27.480]  Bye.