[00:00.650 --> 00:08.450]  Stay tuned for Off the Hook coming up in the next hour.
[00:08.450 --> 00:10.690]  So please stay tuned.
[00:13.730 --> 00:18.470]  And you are listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:18.650 --> 00:19.930]  It's 7 o'clock.
[00:20.110 --> 00:22.210]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[00:27.610 --> 00:29.630]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[00:30.030 --> 00:32.150]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[00:33.070 --> 00:35.130]  I cut myself while shaving.
[00:35.730 --> 00:37.650]  Now I can't make a call.
[00:38.530 --> 00:40.450]  I couldn't get much worse.
[00:41.030 --> 00:43.010]  But if they could, they would.
[00:43.250 --> 00:44.770]  A million more for the best.
[00:44.850 --> 00:45.890]  Expect the worst.
[00:46.510 --> 00:48.410]  I hope that's understood.
[00:48.690 --> 00:49.530]  A million more.
[01:46.530 --> 01:48.410]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:48.510 --> 01:49.850]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:49.970 --> 01:50.990]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
[01:51.070 --> 01:52.490]  Joined tonight by Kyle.
[01:52.770 --> 01:53.190]  Yes.
[01:54.630 --> 01:57.970]  And over in Skypeland we have Rob T.
[01:58.030 --> 01:58.390]  Firefly.
[01:59.190 --> 02:00.090]  Good evening.
[02:00.630 --> 02:01.210]  We have Gilaw.
[02:01.970 --> 02:02.490]  Hello.
[02:03.210 --> 02:04.450]  And we have Alex.
[02:05.570 --> 02:06.150]  Yes, you do.
[02:06.250 --> 02:06.550]  Good evening.
[02:06.750 --> 02:08.250]  Usual cast of characters.
[02:08.850 --> 02:14.490]  Well, folks, tonight is going to be a rather somber night because we are paying tribute to two.
[02:15.490 --> 02:18.330]  Two giants who have left us in the past week.
[02:19.690 --> 02:24.750]  Referring to our friend, fellow hacker, Dan Kaminsky.
[02:25.170 --> 02:26.450]  Died way too young.
[02:26.670 --> 02:28.030]  The age of 42.
[02:28.890 --> 02:31.630]  And, of course, WBAI's own Bob Fass.
[02:32.010 --> 02:33.970]  A legend here at the radio station.
[02:34.150 --> 02:37.710]  So we're going to be paying tribute to both of them during this hour.
[02:38.170 --> 02:43.970]  And sharing your memories if you'd like to share them with us during overtime.
[02:43.970 --> 02:47.950]  And we can take call-in calls later on tonight.
[02:48.170 --> 02:49.810]  That's at 8 o'clock on YouTube.
[02:50.410 --> 02:51.730]  More details on that later.
[02:51.830 --> 02:53.490]  But first to Dan.
[02:53.910 --> 02:55.210]  This is just unbelievable.
[02:56.090 --> 02:57.430]  Nobody was expecting it.
[02:57.970 --> 03:01.270]  Dan Kaminsky is a well-known security researcher.
[03:01.670 --> 03:02.850]  So much more than that, though.
[03:03.890 --> 03:09.650]  You might know him from his discovery of a fundamental flaw in the fabric of the Internet.
[03:09.650 --> 03:11.090]  That's a pretty big one, right?
[03:13.370 --> 03:15.930]  Passed away on Friday at his home in San Francisco.
[03:16.110 --> 03:16.930]  42 years old.
[03:17.470 --> 03:18.910]  His answer to the cause was diabetes.
[03:19.930 --> 03:20.810]  Keto-acidosis.
[03:20.970 --> 03:26.070]  Which is a serious diabetic condition that led to his frequent hospitalization in recent years.
[03:26.110 --> 03:26.730]  I had no idea.
[03:27.150 --> 03:27.630]  I had no idea.
[03:27.750 --> 03:31.690]  This is the kind of thing that someone like Dan would just keep to himself.
[03:34.290 --> 03:50.230]  In 2008, he was widely hailed as a digital Paul Revere after he found a serious flaw in the Internet's basic plumbing that could allow skilled coders to take over websites, siphon off bank credentials, or even shut down the Internet.
[03:51.130 --> 04:00.430]  Dan alerted the Department of Homeland Security, executives at Microsoft and Cisco, and other Internet security experts to the problem, and helped spearhead a patch.
[04:00.710 --> 04:03.870]  He was a respected practitioner of penetration testing.
[04:03.870 --> 04:11.190]  That's the business of compromising the security of computer systems at the behest of owners who want to harden their systems from attack.
[04:12.890 --> 04:19.750]  It was a profession his mother, Trudy Murrer, said he had first developed a NAC4 as a four-year-old.
[04:20.190 --> 04:21.370]  Four-year-old, yeah.
[04:22.410 --> 04:25.130]  That's after his father gave him a computer from Radio Shack.
[04:25.870 --> 04:29.170]  Could it be any more perfect?
[04:29.550 --> 04:33.530]  And by age five, Dan had taught himself to code.
[04:34.150 --> 04:44.130]  His childhood was a parallel to the 1983 movie War Games, in which a teenager, played by Matthew Broderick, unwittingly accesses a U.S.
[04:44.250 --> 04:45.250]  military supercomputer.
[04:46.410 --> 04:55.290]  When Dan Kaminsky was 11, his mother said she received an angry phone call from someone who identified himself as a network administrator for the Western United States.
[04:56.050 --> 05:03.650]  The administrator said someone at her residence was monkeying around in territories where he shouldn't be monkeying around.
[05:04.390 --> 05:08.710]  Without her knowledge, Dan had been examining military websites.
[05:09.330 --> 05:13.510]  The administrator vowed to punish him by cutting off the family's Internet access.
[05:14.990 --> 05:24.550]  His mom warned the administrator that if he made good on this threat, she would take out an advertisement in the San Francisco Chronicle, denouncing the Pentagon's security.
[05:25.230 --> 05:30.970]  I will take out an ad that says your security is so crappy, even an 11-year-old can break it.
[05:32.010 --> 05:36.530]  And they settled on a compromise three days without Internet.
[05:36.810 --> 05:42.070]  And then, nearly two decades after that happened, he wound up saving the Internet.
[05:42.930 --> 05:49.770]  What Dan Kaminsky discovered in 2008 was a problem with the Internet's basic address system, known as the Domain Name System, or DNS.
[05:49.770 --> 06:02.130]  A dynamic phone book that converts human-friendly web addresses like NYTimes.com, WBAI.org, Google.com, into their machine-friendly numeric counterparts.
[06:02.130 --> 06:15.730]  He found a way that thieves or spies could covertly manipulate DNS traffic so that a person typing the website for a bank would instead be redirected to an imposter site that could steal the user's account number and password.
[06:17.830 --> 06:21.610]  Dan's first call was to Paul Vixie, a long-time steward of the Internet's DNS system.
[06:22.290 --> 06:27.910]  The usually unflappable Mr. Vixie recalled that his panic grew as he listened to Mr. Kaminsky's explanation.
[06:28.150 --> 06:30.470]  I realized we were looking down the gun barrel of history.
[06:30.790 --> 06:34.690]  It meant everything in the digital universe was going to have to get patched.
[06:35.370 --> 06:38.190]  Mr. Vixie asked Dan if he had a fix in mind.
[06:38.430 --> 06:47.610]  He said, we are going to get all the makers of DNS software to coordinate a fix, implement it at the same time, and keep it a secret until I present my findings at the Black Hat Conference.
[06:48.710 --> 06:51.810]  And over several days, that's just what they did.
[06:51.850 --> 06:56.290]  They cobbled together a solution in stealth, a fix that Mr. Vixie compared to dog excrement.
[06:56.510 --> 07:02.630]  But given the threat of Internet apocalypse, he recalled it as being the best dog excrement we could ever come up with.
[07:02.630 --> 07:09.030]  And by the time Dan Kaminsky took the stage at the Black Hat Conference that August, the web had been spared.
[07:10.290 --> 07:16.450]  Mr. Kaminsky, who typically donned a T-shirt, shorts, and flip-flops, appeared on stage in a suit that his mother had bought for him.
[07:16.530 --> 07:19.790]  She had also requested that he wear closed-toed shoes.
[07:20.170 --> 07:24.350]  He sort of complied, twirling onto the stage in roller skates.
[07:24.530 --> 07:29.130]  And when his talk was complete, Dan was approached by a stranger in the crowd.
[07:29.130 --> 07:31.990]  It was the administrator who had kicked him off the Internet years earlier.
[07:32.390 --> 07:38.750]  And now he wanted to thank Mr. Kaminsky and ask for an introduction to the meanest mother he ever met.
[07:39.430 --> 07:48.310]  And you know, when a reporter asked why he didn't exploit that DNS flaw to become immensely wealthy, which he certainly could have, he said that doing so would have been morally wrong.
[07:49.070 --> 07:51.290]  And I didn't want his mother to have to visit him in prison.
[07:52.990 --> 07:55.230]  Dan Kaminsky was an incredible person.
[07:55.350 --> 07:56.430]  We all knew that.
[07:56.790 --> 07:58.870]  You know, I've only met him a few times.
[07:59.130 --> 08:05.230]  But in each of those times, he was just bubbling over with life, positivity, support.
[08:06.370 --> 08:10.230]  It's all the best things you could possibly ask for.
[08:11.350 --> 08:16.010]  We had him keynote at the Next Hope in 2010.
[08:17.110 --> 08:18.710]  I'd like to play an excerpt from that.
[08:19.790 --> 08:22.450]  This is Dan Kaminsky at Hope.
[08:23.130 --> 08:25.830]  This gentleman has wanted to attend a Hope conference for many years.
[08:26.050 --> 08:28.270]  He and Emmanuel have tried to work it out.
[08:28.370 --> 08:29.770]  He's very excited to be here.
[08:29.930 --> 08:32.030]  He's well-respected in the computer security world.
[08:32.690 --> 08:33.630]  Dan Kaminsky.
[08:44.130 --> 08:45.990]  Holy crap, I finally made a Hope.
[08:46.630 --> 08:47.770]  Took me long enough.
[08:49.070 --> 08:50.850]  So, hi, I'm Dan.
[08:51.770 --> 08:53.010]  I got a company.
[08:53.250 --> 08:53.370]  Whatever.
[08:56.150 --> 08:59.950]  I want to start this talk by telling a story.
[09:00.790 --> 09:08.190]  Who here is familiar with the TLS renegotiation bug found by Marsh Ray last year?
[09:09.610 --> 09:14.690]  Was that not, like, the most beautiful bug that had to have come out in years?
[09:15.130 --> 09:18.910]  Like, this was a core crypto design flaw.
[09:19.150 --> 09:21.290]  It had been there since the beginning of SSL.
[09:21.470 --> 09:28.230]  It was one of those situations where two pieces of the protocol thought the same message meant two different things entirely.
[09:28.690 --> 09:29.290]  Beautiful.
[09:30.850 --> 09:41.730]  So, Marsh finds this bug, pulls together a whole bunch of people, just like I did for DNS, and you know what the best part of, like, they did, like, months and months of secret work.
[09:41.910 --> 09:43.510]  You know what the best part of it was?
[09:44.670 --> 09:47.510]  I had nothing to do with it.
[09:48.130 --> 09:49.690]  No idea what was going on.
[09:49.770 --> 09:52.530]  I went to sleep every night blissfully unaware.
[09:54.730 --> 09:56.690]  So, this was a very big effort.
[09:56.870 --> 10:00.310]  They spent thousands of hours coming up with a very deep fix.
[10:00.810 --> 10:03.570]  The fix was almost perfect.
[10:04.230 --> 10:04.710]  Almost.
[10:05.170 --> 10:12.470]  The fix that I ended up coming up with ended up not working on about, you know, 0.01, 0.03% of servers.
[10:13.370 --> 10:14.790]  But, you know, that's pretty good, right?
[10:14.930 --> 10:17.890]  You know, 99.7% compliance.
[10:17.890 --> 10:20.310]  I mean, that's totally good enough for deployment, right?
[10:21.850 --> 10:25.390]  Yeah, so, it's off by default everywhere in the known universe.
[10:28.190 --> 10:28.630]  Crap.
[10:29.490 --> 10:32.630]  No, so, so, this is interesting to me.
[10:33.070 --> 10:36.030]  Um, a huge amount of effort was spent.
[10:36.350 --> 10:37.930]  A huge amount of code was written.
[10:38.190 --> 10:40.270]  A lot of political capital was exerted.
[10:40.490 --> 10:43.090]  No benefit to my mom.
[10:44.090 --> 10:45.110]  That's not cool.
[10:46.330 --> 10:48.550]  I got some bad news and I got some good news.
[10:48.550 --> 10:54.250]  The bad news is, as hackers, we sometimes give really bad advice.
[10:54.810 --> 10:59.930]  Sometimes we'll tell people, this is what you're going to do and it'll be secure and that's all that matters in the world.
[11:00.310 --> 11:08.170]  Uh, we, in more technical terms, only consider our own engineering requirements, which is that it can't get compromised.
[11:08.650 --> 11:11.510]  Um, we assume that the environment is static.
[11:11.770 --> 11:14.810]  We assume that the tools are static, that things are going to be as they are.
[11:15.170 --> 11:20.610]  And, you know, the only thing we care about when we give our advice is, well, at least it's safe.
[11:21.150 --> 11:25.070]  And in the case of the TLS bug, well, at least I can turn it on for myself.
[11:26.110 --> 11:26.430]  Yeah.
[11:27.130 --> 11:28.290]  So, that's the bad news.
[11:33.690 --> 11:34.130]  Uh,
[11:50.190 --> 11:57.330]  at the end of the day, the analogy I've been using is, um, it's kind of like turning off your cell phone when you get onto the airplane.
[11:57.330 --> 12:01.110]  Whatever it has to do with, it's got nothing to do with safety.
[12:01.730 --> 12:03.110]  I got a secret.
[12:03.370 --> 12:05.650]  No one turns off their phones.
[12:08.550 --> 12:18.670]  So, let's start by talking about something that is really, really broken, which I hope, through some work, eventually, we can finally see get fixed.
[12:20.730 --> 12:26.570]  What we have here are two SSH sessions to two completely different servers.
[12:26.570 --> 12:28.950]  I've logged into two boxes.
[12:29.450 --> 12:30.050]  Okay.
[12:30.990 --> 12:37.150]  When I log into two SSH servers, do I need to worry about one of those servers hacking the other?
[12:37.630 --> 12:38.170]  No.
[12:38.870 --> 12:45.890]  When I log into two different websites, do I need to worry about one of those websites logging into the other?
[12:46.530 --> 12:47.130]  Yes.
[12:47.130 --> 12:47.250]  Yes.
[12:47.770 --> 12:48.630]  Why is this?
[12:48.770 --> 12:56.110]  Because session management on the web is totally broken, and session management in SSH works pretty well.
[12:57.700 --> 13:01.730]  The web was never designed to host authenticated resources.
[13:02.490 --> 13:04.670]  Authentication was basically bolted on.
[13:04.930 --> 13:10.470]  I mean, if you go to the beginning, once upon a time, the web was just like flat files in a directory.
[13:10.770 --> 13:12.750]  And then people started saying, hey, wait a second.
[13:12.810 --> 13:15.590]  We can make money if we be a little dynamic here.
[13:15.590 --> 13:17.830]  And that's when it all started going downhill.
[13:22.130 --> 13:27.690]  Now, the real world normal mechanism by which credentials tend to be managed are cookies.
[13:28.110 --> 13:34.510]  The idea is that you have some form, you type in a password, because passwords are all we can finally make work after all these years.
[13:35.590 --> 13:39.670]  And you don't want to have to type in a password for every single web page you go to.
[13:39.970 --> 13:44.670]  So what we end up seeing is the first time you enter a password, you get a cookie back.
[13:44.870 --> 13:50.050]  A tiny little opaque blob that you now attach to every single request to a site.
[13:50.250 --> 13:53.890]  And now you don't have to keep putting in your password over and over and over again.
[13:54.230 --> 13:55.790]  That seems pretty reasonable.
[13:56.370 --> 14:01.830]  The thing is, cookies are attached to every single request to a site.
[14:01.830 --> 14:05.190]  Even if that request came from some foreign domain.
[14:05.530 --> 14:10.630]  So you're logged into your bank, and you're also browsing some random bad website.
[14:10.870 --> 14:16.930]  That random bad website can mix his URL request with your credentials.
[14:17.570 --> 14:25.430]  At the end of the day, this is why cross-site scripting and cross-site request forgery is a big deal.
[14:25.430 --> 14:32.490]  It's because the actual credentials that we use to log into websites are really, really leaky.
[14:33.410 --> 14:45.490]  Now, what we tend to say as hackers, as pen testers is, well, when you log into a website, you should have a little extra blob attached to every single URL.
[14:45.490 --> 14:53.590]  Well, you might see this, you know, little blob of noise, you know, called token equals and some noise wherever you're browsing the authenticated portions of a site.
[14:55.450 --> 14:56.190]  This works.
[14:56.930 --> 14:57.690]  So that's right.
[14:57.790 --> 14:58.050]  That's it.
[14:58.090 --> 14:58.290]  That's cool.
[14:58.390 --> 14:58.690]  It works.
[14:58.790 --> 14:59.310]  We got a solution.
[14:59.450 --> 14:59.670]  We're done.
[15:01.030 --> 15:03.330]  Amazingly enough, devs kind of hate this.
[15:03.450 --> 15:05.290]  Because cookies are automatic.
[15:05.570 --> 15:06.570]  You flip a switch.
[15:06.730 --> 15:07.290]  They work.
[15:07.390 --> 15:08.570]  The browser takes care of it.
[15:08.570 --> 15:09.090]  You're done.
[15:09.490 --> 15:15.430]  With this stuff, you have to touch every single URL in a web application.
[15:15.890 --> 15:16.910]  So you know what happens?
[15:17.510 --> 15:18.510]  People don't do it.
[15:18.690 --> 15:19.630]  And so we go ahead.
[15:19.690 --> 15:21.790]  We advise people, oh, yeah, go through this token on.
[15:21.950 --> 15:22.850]  And then they try.
[15:22.990 --> 15:30.410]  And they realize it's going to be more work to add this little token than it was for them to write the web application in the first place.
[15:30.530 --> 15:32.210]  And so they go tell you to pound sand.
[15:32.430 --> 15:34.690]  And then you come back six months later and you have the same finding.
[15:34.810 --> 15:37.310]  And you keep doing this until the pen test budget's exhausted.
[15:40.410 --> 15:43.650]  So, couldn't the tools be a little better?
[15:44.930 --> 15:53.130]  Every time I look at the web scene, I see people arguing about whether SVG files should be able to animate.
[15:53.730 --> 15:54.630]  That's nice.
[15:54.810 --> 15:55.350]  That's cool.
[15:55.850 --> 15:59.830]  Could we maybe have the ability to log into a website securely?
[16:00.810 --> 16:02.610]  Maybe that's a little more important.
[16:05.390 --> 16:06.910]  So I tried to build this.
[16:06.910 --> 16:21.950]  I went ahead and I built four different systems that tried to go ahead and make it so you knew when you were browsing a website that any request actually came from the site at play.
[16:22.190 --> 16:31.010]  In other words, I want to be able to differentiate when the site I'm logged into sends me somewhere versus when some other site does this.
[16:31.210 --> 16:33.390]  This shouldn't be a complicated thing.
[16:33.390 --> 16:34.610]  It's really hard.
[16:34.930 --> 16:36.950]  So I came up with four different mechanisms.
[16:37.250 --> 16:38.970]  We don't need to go into the details.
[16:38.970 --> 16:42.450]  I just want to say they all got owned thoroughly.
[16:43.050 --> 16:47.430]  Thank you, Seastone, Kusa55, Amit Kline, Dave Ross, and SirDarkat.
[16:48.310 --> 16:50.130]  This is awesome.
[16:50.130 --> 16:50.210]  Awesome.
[16:51.270 --> 16:53.230]  We have a bit of a problem in our scene.
[16:53.630 --> 17:00.110]  And one of those problems is we're really slow to get around to actually breaking stuff.
[17:00.430 --> 17:01.330]  I don't know if you've noticed.
[17:02.030 --> 17:04.710]  We don't break things when they're originally being developed.
[17:04.890 --> 17:06.650]  We don't break them when they're released.
[17:06.950 --> 17:10.850]  We don't even break them when early adopters are using them.
[17:10.850 --> 17:19.010]  What happens is something gets to a certain popularity level, and then all of a sudden we're like, oh, wow, lots of people are using this thing.
[17:19.310 --> 17:20.910]  Let's find out if it's crap.
[17:24.500 --> 17:25.420]  A little late.
[17:28.000 --> 17:29.920]  We need to close this feedback loop.
[17:30.060 --> 17:42.860]  We need to get to the point where when major new technologies are looking like they're going to get adopted, we have a reason to believe that they have been thoroughly and publicly and brutally audited.
[17:44.220 --> 17:46.000]  So, here's the deal.
[17:46.320 --> 17:52.540]  Whatever is going on with everyone else's defenses, I want mine to get destroyed.
[17:53.320 --> 17:54.580]  No question.
[17:54.860 --> 17:55.600]  No delay.
[17:56.080 --> 18:00.740]  Because life is too short to back broken code.
[18:01.120 --> 18:09.180]  What could possibly be worse than spending years of your life on a defense and then one day finding out, oh, yeah, that doesn't work at all?
[18:10.160 --> 18:13.780]  Session management is going to require some pretty deep changes to the browser.
[18:14.060 --> 18:19.180]  And if you're interested in it, come up, walk up to me, and we can talk about some of the details.
[18:19.860 --> 18:25.920]  There is something else that might not require nearly the sort of deep changes.
[18:28.240 --> 18:32.960]  There's a really interesting guy I've known for about 10 years, Jeremiah Grossman.
[18:33.340 --> 18:35.620]  He runs a company called White Hat Security.
[18:36.040 --> 18:39.600]  White Hat does tremendous amounts of website auditing.
[18:40.460 --> 18:47.000]  And he has something that a lot of us really should be looking at more, which is data.
[18:47.520 --> 18:50.580]  We tend to run a lot on anecdotes.
[18:50.700 --> 18:51.660]  You know, oh, I heard.
[18:51.660 --> 18:57.640]  There is power in actual concrete information about how things fail.
[18:58.200 --> 19:02.000]  One of the things that Jeremiah found, and I'm just going to quote him in entirety.
[19:02.340 --> 19:10.460]  The bottom line is there just is not a measurable difference in the security postures from language to language or framework to framework.
[19:10.880 --> 19:16.760]  Specifically, Microsoft ASP Classic, .NET, Java, ColdFusion, PHP, and Perl.
[19:16.760 --> 19:26.420]  Sure, in theory, one might be significantly more secure than the others, but when deployed on the web, it's just not the case.
[19:26.900 --> 19:36.580]  I'm not going to ask you to raise your hands, but I bet a lot of you in this room absolutely assumed that it mattered what language you use and what framework you use.
[19:36.720 --> 19:45.120]  But when you have a guy who's actually going out there breaking websites by the thousands, eh, 10% difference here, 20% difference there.
[19:45.480 --> 19:47.740]  It's not a big difference what's going on.
[19:48.300 --> 19:53.640]  Now, I don't think even Jeremiah realized how significant this finding is.
[19:53.780 --> 20:02.920]  Because, you know, we've got some languages in here that are type safe, and we've got languages in here that are, most assuredly, not type safe.
[20:02.920 --> 20:06.480]  We're spending a lot of money on this safety.
[20:07.180 --> 20:08.880]  Where's the safety?
[20:09.620 --> 20:15.460]  This is a huge and massive and order of magnitude expenditure we're making.
[20:15.700 --> 20:19.640]  Why aren't we getting the safety we're paying for?
[20:21.220 --> 20:28.640]  Well, one thing to be clear about, we're not really actually using type safe languages, even when we think we are.
[20:29.200 --> 20:33.340]  The reality of web development is programming language.
[20:33.600 --> 20:37.620]  You've got HTML, you've got JavaScript, you've got CSS, a little bit of XML, let's bust in some SQL.
[20:37.840 --> 20:38.700]  How about some PHP?
[20:38.960 --> 20:40.100]  Okay, now we'll do some C Sharp.
[20:40.480 --> 20:43.500]  Every time you move, it's a new language.
[20:43.900 --> 20:47.660]  All of these languages need to communicate with one another.
[20:47.780 --> 20:49.740]  And they all have their own type systems.
[20:49.860 --> 20:51.240]  They all have their own internal things.
[20:51.240 --> 21:01.580]  But when you need to have cross-language communication, from PHP to SQL, from C Sharp to HTML, how does it end up working?
[21:01.800 --> 21:03.940]  It works through strings.
[21:04.360 --> 21:06.380]  Just raw text.
[21:06.660 --> 21:08.520]  There's no type safety involved.
[21:08.700 --> 21:10.860]  There's no context involved.
[21:11.120 --> 21:13.020]  It's just, here's some programming.
[21:20.110 --> 21:23.270]  So, this time last year, I would have told you type safety was useless.
[21:23.690 --> 21:24.670]  Turns out I was wrong.
[21:26.070 --> 21:27.190]  Happens quite a bit, actually.
[21:28.810 --> 21:31.390]  Never, by the way, be afraid of being wrong.
[21:31.650 --> 21:35.110]  Being wrong just means the world is more interesting than you thought it was.
[21:38.390 --> 21:40.510]  What great words to hand on.
[21:40.690 --> 21:47.850]  The late Dan Kaminsky giving a keynote address at the Next Hope 2010 Hotel, Pennsylvania, here in New York City.
[21:48.910 --> 21:56.810]  And, you know, the obituary I was reading portions of from the New York Times has a sub-headline, which is priceless.
[21:56.810 --> 22:01.110]  If you are reading this obituary online, you owe your digital safety to him.
[22:01.690 --> 22:02.650]  Daniel Kaminsky.
[22:06.370 --> 22:10.270]  Folks, did you, um, have occasion to, um, to talk with Dan over the years?
[22:11.070 --> 22:11.430]  Rob?
[22:12.650 --> 22:19.990]  Yeah, I mean, he was, uh, he was a guest on this program, um, a couple of times in 2010 and again in 2011.
[22:20.630 --> 22:24.950]  And he was always a joy to be around, a joy to speak with, you know, brilliant on the air, of course.
[22:25.290 --> 22:34.530]  But, and, uh, this, this has been, uh, borne out not just by my experience, but by so many, um, experiences that the hacker community has been sharing on, on social media.
[22:34.530 --> 22:44.310]  And such, since, uh, the announcement went out, um, he was just a really great, amiable, kind, jolly dude.
[22:44.810 --> 23:00.450]  Uh, he, he was, uh, I remember my biggest memory of him, my biggest personal memory of him and this image of him that I'll be hanging on to, um, is just, we, we had gone out to, uh, dinner after, after he was a guest on Off the Hook.
[23:00.450 --> 23:01.790]  Um, we were at a restaurant somewhere.
[23:01.930 --> 23:02.810]  I don't remember the restaurant.
[23:03.010 --> 23:08.610]  I don't remember what the occasion was or the conversation was that sparked this, but I just remember laughing with him.
[23:08.770 --> 23:09.610]  He was laughing.
[23:09.750 --> 23:10.450]  I was laughing.
[23:10.670 --> 23:12.010]  Uh, you guys were laughing.
[23:12.270 --> 23:16.010]  The, the, the other folks who were involved in the program back then and were with us were laughing.
[23:16.010 --> 23:27.530]  And just this whole table full of us were just having that kind of deep, uh, all, all-consuming laughter that, uh, that was like echoing throughout the restaurant.
[23:27.710 --> 23:32.530]  And I just, I remember that so well and so clearly and the feeling of that and the joy of that.
[23:32.890 --> 23:36.610]  And that's, that's my picture of Dan Kaminsky that I'll, that I'll be hanging on to.
[23:37.110 --> 23:39.850]  He, he, he brought that positivity to so many people.
[23:40.350 --> 23:47.610]  And, um, I never heard him say, I've never heard of him saying a bad, negative or judgmental word about anybody.
[23:48.310 --> 23:51.390]  Uh, he knew his stuff.
[23:51.630 --> 24:01.490]  Not only was he a positive, as you call him, jolly person, but he really, really was an expert who, who knew of what he spoke, but it didn't go to his head.
[24:01.690 --> 24:06.030]  You know, you saw at the, at the beginning of that talk, yeah, I own a company, whatever.
[24:06.470 --> 24:08.210]  He wasn't about self-promotion.
[24:08.450 --> 24:14.630]  He was about sharing his story and he could just talk in front of a crowd without any, any kind of a script or anything like that.
[24:14.730 --> 24:16.290]  And just share information.
[24:16.290 --> 24:19.450]  It was such an inspiration to, to so many people.
[24:19.630 --> 24:30.310]  I, I can only imagine how many people are in the field of, of, uh, computer security or just hacking in general after listening to, to what he said and how he presented himself.
[24:30.690 --> 24:31.070]  Kyle?
[24:31.070 --> 24:41.910]  Yeah, I really, uh, I aspire and, and was so drawn to that charisma and presence and light and, uh, ability to take a joke.
[24:41.910 --> 24:48.830]  I know, uh, I can't, uh, first of all, can't recall how many different times I might've bumped into him.
[24:49.030 --> 25:08.950]  Like the memory Rob is having, I have a amalgamation of impressions of him and that, um, that smile and, and joy in, in, uh, being able to share and do that kind of storytelling, but relate it, relate it to whatever it is, as you hear, here in this talk to technology and so forth.
[25:08.950 --> 25:17.490]  And it really just struck me that he could also, he had that, I don't know, hubris or just the ability to take a joke as well.
[25:17.750 --> 25:19.710]  Uh, I, I have this memory.
[25:20.050 --> 25:25.090]  I don't know what event it was, but I think he was walking by or leaving a talk.
[25:25.190 --> 25:36.130]  And this is the kind of thing when we used to have events, the, the type of thing you, um, often hear is said about them is that you have these interactions in the hallway.
[25:36.130 --> 25:45.550]  You, you, you kind of have conversations you can share with people with what you're into and you, you never know who you might be around at any given moment.
[25:45.790 --> 25:48.890]  Um, and especially camps and so forth, people are volunteering.
[25:49.050 --> 25:52.310]  You could be working side by side with somebody who's presenting and so forth.
[25:52.410 --> 26:10.910]  So I know he's walking out or walking to or from somewhere with, as everyone does and getting crap about, um, uh, uh, at least the next talk is not about DNS with Dan Cominci, you know, kind of like, uh, kind of trying to catch him like so that he, he hears it as he's walking by just little,
[26:11.050 --> 26:14.550]  little things like that that would bring out that same laughter.
[26:14.730 --> 26:20.710]  And I, I have that kind of, um, I don't, I wish I had more details about it, but that, that is something that sticks with me.
[26:20.970 --> 26:21.210]  Alex.
[26:27.370 --> 26:44.670]  You know, perhaps a while ago over at DEFCON, um, and I think and hope many years ago too, but, you know, I didn't know him personally well, but what I know of him is exactly like what you said, Emmanuel, I mean, even on all the 2600 groups who people are sharing anecdotes.
[26:44.790 --> 26:57.610]  And what really struck me is not only the humility of this, of this man who was a, a font of knowledge that never let it get to his head, but also there were just so many stories about him.
[26:58.050 --> 27:10.570]  It seems like almost everyone has a personal anecdote about how Dan Kaminsky helped them out in one way or another, whether it was, I'm in a pinch on this project or, you know, I need to move boxes, whatever it is.
[27:10.650 --> 27:16.370]  I mean, the guy seemed to be everywhere all at once and willing to help anyone that needed help.
[27:16.810 --> 27:24.950]  And yet at the same time was just, you know, sharing knowledge, you know, really typified and exemplified, I think the very best of the hacker spirit.
[27:25.450 --> 27:36.770]  And it's incredibly sad and incredibly, um, I just think, um, tragic really that, that we lost him at the age of 42, way, way, way too young.
[27:37.110 --> 27:43.550]  Uh, it feels as if, uh, this was a major, major loss for the community, but, but also for the world.
[27:43.710 --> 27:48.490]  I mean, this guy, 42 years old, look what he did in those 42 years.
[27:48.630 --> 27:56.190]  You mentioned his childhood years, Emmanuel, but imagine if he had another 40, imagine if he had another 50, maybe even 60.
[27:56.910 --> 28:02.170]  What's the, the impact on the world that is lost is, is, is, is just another tragedy.
[28:02.370 --> 28:06.150]  I think that, that we don't even know how to, to quantify at the moment.
[28:08.350 --> 28:08.870]  Yeah.
[28:09.070 --> 28:09.530]  Well said.
[28:09.870 --> 28:10.950]  Thanks for chiming in on that.
[28:11.270 --> 28:11.430]  Yeah.
[28:12.890 --> 28:17.050]  Um, Um, do you have any, uh, any thoughts from you?
[28:17.710 --> 28:21.290]  I, I never met Dan Kaminsky.
[28:21.590 --> 28:38.890]  I am now a little bit embarrassed to admit I had really not heard of him until Rob mentioned to me a few days ago that this piece of news had broken and just listening to the excerpt of his talk, the humor, the vitality, the passion.
[28:39.130 --> 28:42.930]  It was keeping my interest audio only.
[28:43.230 --> 28:44.790]  I was not in the room.
[28:45.010 --> 28:53.550]  I could not see whatever he was presenting, but I was fascinated and I wanted to hear more completely out of context.
[28:54.190 --> 29:05.910]  And I can see how his energy must have been such an amazing piece of the community in so many ways, just echoing everything that you guys are saying.
[29:06.710 --> 29:08.750]  I am deeply sorry.
[29:08.930 --> 29:11.310]  I never got a chance to hear him or meet him.
[29:12.310 --> 29:31.070]  Well, it just, um, brings home the point that we have to cherish what we have when it's around, whether that be, um, uh, places, people, events, uh, because they're so valuable and, and so, um, um, um, so able to disappear, you know, and, and, and be gone.
[29:31.250 --> 29:37.550]  So we have Dan in our memories and hopefully he's influenced us to be better people.
[29:38.490 --> 29:41.310]  He certainly influenced us to be more secure.
[29:42.310 --> 29:44.230]  Uh, now we have a musical piece.
[29:44.390 --> 29:45.550]  Rob, you want to intro this?
[29:47.230 --> 29:58.730]  Uh, yeah, there is, uh, there is a bit of a hit song, uh, called Barbra Streisand by an outfit called, uh, Duck Sauce, um, which is, you know, some music and then a sample voice saying Barbra Streisand every so often.
[29:59.010 --> 30:06.970]  And it became kind of a running joke among DJs and that whole scene to substitute in whatever name you wanted in place of Barbra Streisand.
[30:07.410 --> 30:13.770]  And there was a version that, uh, some DJ somewhere put together, um, changing the name to Dan Kaminsky.
[30:14.070 --> 30:24.130]  And this version was played at hacker conferences at, uh, like DJ performances, um, hacker conference, adjacent, uh, parties, dance parties, things like that.
[30:24.710 --> 30:32.730]  Um, there's even a clip out there somewhere of, uh, Dan himself, uh, dancing to this song, um, which, uh, which we'll try to find and, uh, retweet later.
[30:33.050 --> 30:40.610]  But, um, it, it, it, it's just an example of, like, how, like, people knew who he was and he was just in everyone's, uh, everyone's minds.
[30:40.830 --> 30:48.290]  And, you know, he, he appreciated being a little bit of a meme himself too, um, despite how humble he, he was about his actual accomplishments.
[30:48.790 --> 30:52.070]  So, you know, it's a bit of fun and it's, it's a salute to him.
[30:52.230 --> 30:53.010]  Dan Kaminsky.
[31:07.050 --> 31:08.010]  Dan Kaminsky.
[31:29.580 --> 31:30.540]  Dan Kaminsky.
[32:44.540 --> 32:45.500]  Dan Kaminsky.
[34:31.870 --> 34:40.430]  And if, uh, you have stories that you'd like to share, uh, later on of Dan Kaminsky, uh, over time, we'll be, uh, uh, talking more and we'll be taking your phone calls.
[34:40.510 --> 34:43.010]  Phone number 802-321-4225.
[34:43.410 --> 34:44.930]  Uh, that can be found on YouTube.
[34:44.930 --> 34:52.370]  Go to the 2600.com homepage and look at the link on top to, uh, to get in line for, uh, for overtime.
[34:52.610 --> 34:53.910]  Uh, yes, Rob, go ahead.
[34:54.730 --> 35:00.150]  And I just want to really quickly thank the, uh, the Duke zip, um, for finding that copy for us.
[35:00.250 --> 35:01.430]  So, uh, so we could play it today.
[35:01.610 --> 35:02.370]  Yes, absolutely.
[35:03.250 --> 35:11.630]  Well, um, hard, hard to believe, but, um, we have a second New York Times obituary to, um, to quote from.
[35:12.430 --> 35:23.970]  And, uh, this is for, um, someone much closer to home, someone who, uh, whose voice graced the airwaves of WBAI, this very radio station for, for many years.
[35:24.250 --> 35:40.290]  Bob Fass, who, uh, for more than 50 years hosted, uh, an anarchic and, uh, influential radio show that put it mildly on WBAI mixed political conversation, avant-garde music, uh, serendipitous encounters, outright agitation.
[35:40.750 --> 35:46.170]  Uh, he passed away Saturday in North Carolina at the age of 87.
[35:46.290 --> 35:59.330]  He, um, called his radio show radio unnameable because it's freewheeling format didn't fit into conventional categories like top 40 or all talk, things like that.
[35:59.890 --> 36:09.850]  Um, he had this unique voice that, um, the Times, um, describes quite accurately, I think as, uh, both soothingly intimate and insistently urgent.
[36:10.790 --> 36:15.470]  And, um, sometimes reflected the mellowing impact of the potty smoked on the air.
[36:16.030 --> 36:32.470]  He, he might start out with a critique of segregation or the Vietnam war, and then introduce a Greenwich village friend named Abby Hoffman to, to muse about a demonstration by the radical and theatrical yippies that had showered traders in the New York stock exchange with dollar bills.
[36:34.130 --> 36:40.890]  Or you might bring on an ambitious Minnesotan named Bob Dylan, pretending to be an entrepreneur who manufactured clothing for folk singers.
[36:41.530 --> 36:42.090]  Yeah.
[36:42.770 --> 36:54.750]  In, uh, various appearances, Mr. Dylan did comic monologues, featuring characters with names like Elvis Bickle, Rumpelbilly Burp, and Frog Rugster, and asked cabbies to bring food to the station.
[36:54.930 --> 36:59.470]  In one appearance, he tried out an unfinished composition called Blowing in the Wind.
[37:00.590 --> 37:09.090]  I'd put anyone on because the idea was, if you didn't like what I was doing, three minutes later, I'd be doing something else, Bob Fass said in an interview.
[37:09.550 --> 37:14.310]  He was not the first freestyle disc jockey in the country, but he became the most prominent.
[37:14.470 --> 37:17.050]  He helped forge the identity of WBAI.
[37:18.370 --> 37:23.770]  Paved the way for, um, other popular WBAI hosts like Larry Josephson and Steve Post.
[37:25.050 --> 37:33.150]  And at times, Bob Fass, who helped found the yippies, something I didn't know, um, served as the instigator of what today might be called crowdsourcing.
[37:33.150 --> 37:44.610]  In February of 1967, he urged listeners to flood the International Arrivals Building at JFK Airport for a fly-in to greet incoming travelers after midnight.
[37:45.070 --> 37:54.030]  About 3,000 people, many of them intoxicated both by marijuana and by the excitement of taking part in a seemingly pointless communal escapade, showed up.
[37:55.410 --> 38:07.130]  In 1971, one of the most dramatic episodes of his career, a caller told Mr. Fass that he was so despondent about having made a mess of his life that he had swallowed an overdose of pills.
[38:07.530 --> 38:14.610]  With thousands of listeners riveted by the live drama, Mr. Fass kept the caller talking while dispatching associates to contact the police.
[38:14.790 --> 38:19.690]  The telephone number was traced, the caller was found, unconscious but alive, in an Upper East Side apartment.
[38:21.110 --> 38:24.470]  His, uh, personality sometimes got him into trouble, though.
[38:24.650 --> 38:37.850]  In 1977, he was a leader of a unionizing effort at WBAI, exploiting his microphone to garner support against his employers, the Pacifica Foundation, and changes that had instituted in management and format.
[38:38.870 --> 38:48.310]  He even barricaded himself in the studio, which at the time was in a church at East 62nd Street, and continued broadcasting until executives called in the police.
[38:48.790 --> 38:51.510]  He was banned from the station for five years.
[38:52.790 --> 38:59.790]  In 2018, Bob Fass suffered a fiasco, not unlike those he used to hear about, from distressed late-night callers.
[38:59.870 --> 39:08.050]  While he was moving his belongings from his home in Staten Island to a house in Danbury, Connecticut, he flicked on a malfunctioning gas fireplace and set off a two-alarm blaze.
[39:09.010 --> 39:18.110]  He was using a wheelchair, he had to be carried out by the movers, but he inhaled a good deal of smoke, and scores of tapes of his shows that he had held on to were damaged.
[39:20.670 --> 39:33.190]  Happily, though, uh, there was a, um, a massive effort on the part of, uh, Columbia University, who, uh, purchased 10,000 hours of deteriorating tape recordings of, of his program and began digitizing them.
[39:33.910 --> 39:43.590]  And those recordings include his running account of the 1968 occupation of Columbia University by, uh, students protesting the construction of a university gymnasium.
[39:45.610 --> 39:51.790]  We've taken on a major audio archive of an outsider figure who was positioned uniquely at a critical moment in American history.
[39:54.150 --> 39:58.530]  At the end of the day, this is a huge corpus of data that will be used by historians.
[39:58.970 --> 40:01.970]  Well, let's go back in history to 1967.
[40:02.030 --> 40:13.490]  I believe this is April 4th, 1967, right here on these airwaves, WBAI 99.5 FM, where Bob Fass had a special guest on, someone named Tiny Tim.
[40:14.170 --> 40:15.290]  You know, Tiny Tim, right?
[40:15.470 --> 40:16.330]  Tiptoe through the tulips.
[40:16.750 --> 40:19.770]  This was before anyone knew who he was, 1967.
[40:20.170 --> 40:22.250]  I think it was before he appeared on Laugh-In.
[40:22.770 --> 40:23.410]  Let's listen.
[40:33.130 --> 40:34.750]  That's not Tiny Tim, that's a record.
[40:50.500 --> 40:52.780]  I'd sure like to hear you learn that song, Tiny.
[40:52.920 --> 40:53.360]  Thanks, Bob.
[40:53.440 --> 40:54.320]  I think I will be caught.
[40:54.520 --> 40:57.780]  I have to get a hold of that music, uh, because it's a great number.
[40:57.960 --> 40:58.700]  Thanks for your suggestion.
[40:59.000 --> 41:03.060]  And I also want to thank Mr. Lyle for the use of the guitar, the guitar there.
[41:03.860 --> 41:04.940]  Uh, all right.
[41:05.000 --> 41:09.200]  People have been calling up and asking where they can buy this record of yours that hasn't come out yet.
[41:09.440 --> 41:10.940]  I guess the answer is nowhere.
[41:11.560 --> 41:12.000]  Yet.
[41:12.260 --> 41:17.160]  That's right, but it will be sold at the scene at, uh, 301 West 46th Street.
[41:17.820 --> 41:20.120]  Uh, the Steve Paul scene.
[41:20.420 --> 41:24.080]  And so, if they'd like to know, they can call, uh, Judson 2.
[41:25.160 --> 41:27.500]  Uh, uh, uh, Tiny.
[41:27.860 --> 41:28.020]  Yeah.
[41:28.300 --> 41:30.720]  Tiny, uh, will you come up during our marathon?
[41:31.000 --> 41:33.940]  We may very well be having another marathon soon.
[41:34.220 --> 41:34.740]  I'd love to.
[41:35.000 --> 41:35.480]  Very good.
[41:35.760 --> 41:37.540]  Gee, if you let me know, I'd love to, Bob.
[41:37.680 --> 41:37.860]  All right.
[41:37.960 --> 41:39.680]  Afterwards, you tell me how to get in touch with you.
[41:39.900 --> 41:40.080]  Okay.
[41:40.260 --> 41:40.520]  Great.
[41:40.800 --> 41:41.240]  Thanks, Bob.
[41:41.340 --> 41:42.160]  And thanks for everything.
[41:43.280 --> 41:43.640]  Okay.
[41:43.780 --> 41:47.040]  That's wonderful of you to come up tonight, Tiny.
[41:47.220 --> 41:48.060]  Oh, thanks, Bob.
[41:48.200 --> 41:51.080]  And, uh, I hope perhaps you'll make it to the sweep in.
[41:51.460 --> 41:52.700]  Oh, I'll certainly try.
[41:53.100 --> 42:01.640]  And maybe, uh, you can, uh, help me to sign off in just a minute or two with, uh, with, uh, some, uh, some sign off music.
[42:01.780 --> 42:02.460]  I have a theme.
[42:02.960 --> 42:03.600]  Oh, okay.
[42:03.720 --> 42:29.320]  But, uh, first I want to talk about, um, the coronation, uh, uh, on, uh, April, April 11th, the WBAI is going to crown probably the last emperor of the Byzantine, uh, emperor of all the Byzantines, Byzantine Empire, Prince Robert, who is, uh, who is, uh,
[42:29.320 --> 42:43.260]  who is, I'm sure a follower of you as tiny, Tim, Prince Robert, Roan de Courtney, who is the heir presumptive to the throne of the Byzantines, a throne which has not been occupied for 900 years.
[42:44.240 --> 42:55.600]  And, uh, Prince Robert, uh, is going to be crowned by Andy Warhol at the cheetah on, uh, April 11th.
[42:57.100 --> 43:02.620]  And, uh, it's going to be, uh, the, the admission is going to be $5 a person or $8 a couple.
[43:02.800 --> 43:06.160]  And the benefit will be for WBAI's building fund.
[43:06.960 --> 43:08.440]  So, uh, that's what's happening.
[43:08.540 --> 43:12.840]  And there'll be all kinds of other festivities that will be taking place that day at the cheetah.
[43:13.840 --> 43:20.380]  And, uh, there'll be live lions and live boa constrictors and live belly dancers.
[43:20.840 --> 43:23.700]  It's going to be a marvelous, uh, affair.
[43:24.340 --> 43:26.500]  Joselle is the live belly dancer.
[43:26.960 --> 43:29.380]  The live boa constrictor's name is Sammy.
[43:30.560 --> 43:36.460]  And, um, uh, Andy Warhol will, uh, be, uh, impersonated by Andy Warhol.
[43:39.400 --> 43:42.880]  And, uh, it's going to be, uh, it's going to be an event.
[43:43.660 --> 43:44.440]  He's a nice man.
[43:44.640 --> 43:52.800]  I almost didn't mention Lord Harry Roste, who's, uh, who's the grand maître de la corps for Prince Robert.
[43:53.820 --> 43:56.540]  He's, uh, he's of Italian lineage.
[43:57.780 --> 43:59.600]  Well, Mr. Warhol's a nice gentleman.
[43:59.600 --> 44:10.300]  He, he came to the scene and he had his lovely Velvet Underground there with Miss Ingrid Superstar and Miss Suzanne, uh, Bottomley and Miss, uh, Nico.
[44:10.940 --> 44:13.040]  And he was so nice.
[44:13.420 --> 44:16.680]  And, uh, it's such a thrill knowing a gentleman like him.
[44:17.440 --> 44:25.000]  Uh, he, uh, I also knew him in California when I was out there with Hugh Romney and he was so nice too.
[44:25.140 --> 44:26.360]  Oh, how is Hugh Romney?
[44:26.440 --> 44:27.220]  Have you heard from him?
[44:27.220 --> 44:28.900]  Uh, not in months.
[44:29.120 --> 44:35.300]  He, we worked together in the little theater last, uh, last March of 66.
[44:35.780 --> 44:39.280]  And then I made a little movie with Peter Yarrow, but, or Peter, Paul, and Mary.
[44:39.620 --> 44:41.760]  Uh, Yeah, I saw him on the street the other day.
[44:41.840 --> 44:43.120]  He said he's into something new.
[44:43.180 --> 44:44.800]  He wants to come up and talk about it.
[44:45.180 --> 44:45.660]  Oh, I don't know.
[44:45.660 --> 44:47.100]  I mean, maybe even do it.
[44:47.320 --> 44:49.020]  Oh, he's a wonderful person.
[44:49.520 --> 44:51.020]  He's a wonderful man.
[44:51.500 --> 44:56.320]  And, uh, my manager, Mr. Ronnie Lyons, is a wonderful man too.
[44:56.320 --> 44:59.180]  Uh, they're all nice.
[44:59.780 --> 44:59.780]  Uh,
[45:03.260 --> 45:05.820]  but everyone is so wonderful and thrilling.
[45:06.940 --> 45:07.580]  Oh, who's that?
[45:08.940 --> 45:12.320]  Oh, Mr. Shaq, he's a wonderful man too.
[45:13.020 --> 45:14.640]  Oh, of course.
[45:15.700 --> 45:17.960]  Oh, wonderful.
[45:18.160 --> 45:18.780]  Mr. Coleman.
[45:19.360 --> 45:21.040]  Mr. Coleman is wonderful.
[45:22.720 --> 45:23.560]  Okay, Tiny.
[45:23.740 --> 45:25.880]  Thank you very much for coming up tonight.
[45:26.200 --> 45:30.320]  And, uh, I hope, uh, that, uh, your record gets what it deserves.
[45:31.240 --> 45:33.680]  And, uh, I expect to hear you on Murray the K.
[45:34.100 --> 45:35.440]  Oh, he's wonderful too.
[45:35.920 --> 45:36.920]  He's wonderful.
[45:37.120 --> 45:37.800]  God bless him.
[45:38.200 --> 45:39.080]  Oh, yes.
[45:40.620 --> 45:41.500]  Okay, Tiny.
[45:41.700 --> 45:42.800]  Thank you very much.
[45:43.020 --> 45:44.020]  Thank you very much.
[45:44.160 --> 45:47.100]  And, uh, uh, the name of the record is Tiny Tim.
[45:47.620 --> 45:53.580]  And, uh, the photograph of Tiny Tim on the cover is worth, uh, whatever the price of the record is alone.
[45:54.260 --> 45:55.980]  It's, uh, it's gorgeous.
[45:56.580 --> 45:57.740]  It's really gorgeous.
[45:58.680 --> 45:59.780]  Thank you, Tiny.
[46:00.100 --> 46:01.860]  And, um, let's see.
[46:01.900 --> 46:03.140]  I've spoken about the Cheetah.
[46:03.460 --> 46:08.200]  I haven't spoken about subscriptions, uh, really, with any kind of vehemence for a long time.
[46:08.640 --> 46:11.500]  But, uh, we did pretty well last month.
[46:11.500 --> 46:20.920]  I think we, we came with, uh, within, uh, 99 and 99 one-hundredths of our goal or something like that.
[46:21.080 --> 46:31.700]  Somebody said it was 99.5 percent of our goal, which is, like, too beautiful to believe because we're, uh, at 99.5 on the FM dial.
[46:32.020 --> 46:35.280]  So I can't really, you know, believe it worked out that well.
[46:35.840 --> 47:04.560]  But, uh, this month we have a goal of, uh, 350 new subscriptions, 710 renewals, and a total of $15,000, which shouldn't be too hard this month because already we have, uh, uh, let's see, uh, 1,823, which is up almost a thousand dollars over yesterday.
[47:05.000 --> 47:06.200]  So that's beautiful.
[47:06.820 --> 47:27.440]  Uh, if you'd like to join the ever-growing number of people who subscribe to WBAI, something close to 12,000 now, we're moving up, uh, call Oxford 7-2288 and say, I would like to join the ever-growing list of people who subscribe to WBAI by calling Oxford 7-2288.
[47:28.660 --> 47:32.000]  Subscriptions are $15 a year or $10 a year if you're a student.
[47:32.680 --> 47:43.660]  And, uh, if it weren't for these people who subscribe and send us money, we would not be able to broadcast because we don't sell anything on this station but radio programs.
[47:44.400 --> 48:03.100]  Nobody tries to talk you into borrowing money or depositing money in the bank or buying that kind of cigarette or this kind of car or fixing your transcription or something like that, whatever.
[48:03.440 --> 48:07.440]  This is a radio station that, uh, cuts out the middleman.
[48:07.820 --> 48:10.860]  We sell our listeners our radio programs.
[48:11.340 --> 48:16.220]  And, uh, of course you can get them for nothing, uh, for a while.
[48:16.860 --> 48:21.960]  But if people don't support us, then, uh, the money doesn't come in and we go off the air.
[48:22.380 --> 48:24.640]  The equation is relatively simple.
[48:24.700 --> 48:37.680]  Of course, you can continue to let other people pull your load, eavesdrop, but, uh, that's, uh, that's not nice.
[48:38.500 --> 48:43.900]  Call Oxford 7-2288 and say, all right, okay, I don't, I don't want to go straight.
[48:44.040 --> 48:45.720]  I don't want to be billed for a subscription.
[48:45.940 --> 48:48.320]  Oxford 7-2288.
[48:49.020 --> 48:53.320]  Or you can send a check to WBAI 30 East 39th Street.
[48:54.820 --> 49:01.360]  I guess I should probably, uh, step in here and say don't do any of that because all those numbers are, are long disconnected and that address no longer works.
[49:02.000 --> 49:06.020]  Um, that was Bob Fass from, uh, April 4th, 1967.
[49:07.240 --> 49:10.820]  One of our most beloved radio hosts here on WBAI.
[49:11.080 --> 49:15.040]  And that was a show, part of a show that he did with, um, with Tiny Tim.
[49:15.600 --> 49:21.120]  And by the way, that counts as us asking for support from, from you because it all still applies.
[49:21.260 --> 49:22.960]  The only things that changed were the phone numbers.
[49:23.220 --> 49:26.360]  212-209-2950 is the phone number to call.
[49:26.720 --> 49:33.440]  If that inspired you to pledge something to WBAI, you could also go to a website, which was something that was unheard of in 1967.
[49:34.040 --> 49:36.980]  Uh, give to WBAI.org.
[49:37.240 --> 49:38.700]  Give the number to WBAI.org.
[49:38.820 --> 49:42.200]  But boy, that was, um, that was incredible.
[49:42.560 --> 49:43.080]  What'd you think?
[49:43.300 --> 49:43.740]  What'd you think?
[49:44.780 --> 49:48.080]  Oh, I love hearing it and definitely a different time.
[49:48.220 --> 49:50.660]  I don't know if I could like, well, maybe I did.
[49:50.780 --> 49:51.120]  I don't know.
[49:51.340 --> 49:56.980]  The, the, the, the seemed like there was a lot going on in whatever room, whatever broadcast control room.
[49:56.980 --> 50:01.400]  Well, I, I, I had the good fortune of sometimes doing a show, uh, next to Bob.
[50:02.060 --> 50:14.620]  Um, so, so basically what that, what that meant was, um, uh, I'd see all the chaos that, that followed him, uh, when he did a radio show and there'd be crowds of people, you know, about five or six people that were part of the show in one way or another.
[50:14.640 --> 50:24.520]  So it was always ongoing dialogue going on, but that was, that was the chaos that he lived in and that he brought to, um, uh, to the airwaves to kind of, um, uh, bring us all together.
[50:24.520 --> 50:25.300]  It was magic.
[50:25.320 --> 50:38.160]  And he had that same magic throughout his entire career, uh, you know, into the 21st century, even when, uh, we were listening to him when he was doing a show from his home in Staten Island, when he couldn't come to the station anymore, it still had that magic,
[50:38.400 --> 50:44.560]  that, that kind of chaotic, uh, um, getting together and, and, and doing something very much like what we've been experiencing.
[50:44.560 --> 50:57.000]  And a lot of other people producing shows have been doing, uh, during the pandemic, but this was well before that, um, having, uh, people help out engineer, uh, at the broadcast control so that he could communicate.
[50:57.020 --> 50:58.000]  I know we did.
[50:58.220 --> 50:59.460]  I heard a couple of shows like that.
[50:59.580 --> 51:02.560]  You might've heard a reference to a sweep in in that last excerpt.
[51:02.640 --> 51:12.920]  That was something that Bob Fass, um, coordinated, uh, with his thousands of listeners to, to, um, basically descend upon the East village and start cleaning the streets because the sanitation department was on strike.
[51:13.660 --> 51:18.240]  It made headlines, but that was the kind of magic that you could, you could have with radio.
[51:18.240 --> 51:23.620]  You know, um, uh, what, one of his steady listeners was said to be a young Howard Stern.
[51:24.380 --> 51:31.340]  And you could very much see the influence in the way he did radio and the way Howard Stern would later do radio.
[51:32.200 --> 51:42.640]  Um, again, like Dan Kaminsky, this voice is so inspirational to so many, and it's just terribly sad that, um, we won't hear it live anymore.
[51:43.060 --> 51:49.480]  Folks, um, uh, Rob Gila, Alex, any, did you ever meet Bob Fass or were you able to, um, to hear him, Rob?
[51:50.600 --> 51:58.540]  Yeah, I, I didn't have the pleasure of meeting him, but, uh, since I was young, I, I would, uh, when I discovered BAI, I would listen to his show regularly.
[51:58.980 --> 52:09.340]  And it was one of those things where, like, you could just, whatever else was going on in the world or in your life or whatever, you could tune in and you knew what you're going to get and you knew it was not going to be boring, whatever the heck it was.
[52:09.760 --> 52:16.380]  Um, you know, sometimes it was the most random stuff, the most random people, but, uh, it was always a chunk of radio worth listening to.
[52:16.780 --> 52:23.640]  Um, you know, never, never at the end of, uh, radio unnameable, uh, did, did you feel like you just wasted an hour or whatever?
[52:24.060 --> 52:26.360]  It was, uh, it was, it was important.
[52:26.460 --> 52:26.860]  I've got it.
[52:26.920 --> 52:27.760]  I've got a last excerpt.
[52:27.840 --> 52:29.220]  I really don't want to cut this off.
[52:29.420 --> 52:33.360]  Um, and we can continue this conversation on overtime on YouTube after the show.
[52:33.480 --> 52:37.460]  Again, go to 2600.com, click on the link there to join us and, and call us.
[52:37.920 --> 52:41.880]  Um, but this is a sign off, a sign off from that same show.
[52:42.060 --> 52:45.560]  You'll hear how WBAI used to sign off.
[52:45.780 --> 52:47.060]  It's, it's, it's pretty unique.
[52:47.200 --> 52:49.880]  Write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[52:50.060 --> 52:56.320]  Please continue to listen to WBAI and we will see you next week and in a few minutes on overtime.
[52:58.560 --> 53:13.080]  And at this time, WBAI concludes another day of broadcasting.
[53:16.680 --> 53:43.040]  WBAI is owned and operated by the Pacifica Foundation, a non-profit educational institution, operating non-commercial stations in the New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles areas.
[53:44.380 --> 53:50.240]  We operate on channel 258.
[53:50.240 --> 54:20.890]  WBAI at 99.5 megacycles with an effective radiated power of 5.4 kilowatts and 3.85 kilowatts vertical by our authority of the federal communications.
[54:22.110 --> 55:00.630]  Our transmitter is located in the empire state building and our studios and our offices are at 30 east 39th street and 489 fifth avenue and you and you and you out there in radio land in new york city and we thank you for joining us today Until the dawn breaks through...
[55:00.630 --> 55:20.610]  And we hope that our broadcasters encourage you to join us again later this morning when the dawn breaks through with Larry Josephson and In the Beginning at about 7 o'clock.
[55:21.050 --> 55:25.090]  Radio Unnameable will be on the air at about midnight.
[55:28.130 --> 55:32.030]  Radio Unnameable will be on the air at about 10 o'clock.
[55:32.030 --> 55:34.830]  Bye-bye.
[55:35.790 --> 55:36.970]  Bye-bye.
[55:37.210 --> 55:40.410]  Larry can't hear you.
[55:40.410 --> 55:41.390]  Bye-bye.
[55:43.430 --> 55:44.370]  Bye-bye.
[55:45.510 --> 55:46.250]  Bye-bye.
[55:47.770 --> 55:48.870]  Say it to the microphone.
[55:49.090 --> 55:52.050]  Come, come quick, quick, quick.
[55:52.470 --> 55:54.010]  Over here, over here, quick, quick.
[55:54.670 --> 55:55.170]  Oh!
[55:55.730 --> 55:56.930]  It's okay, Mom.
[56:01.930 --> 56:02.730]  Now, sit here.
[56:02.890 --> 56:03.490]  Say bye-bye.
[56:03.610 --> 56:04.670]  Say bye-bye to the microphone.
[56:04.770 --> 56:05.550]  Bye-bye.
[56:06.010 --> 56:06.290]  Again.
[56:07.190 --> 56:08.130]  Bye-bye.
[56:08.370 --> 56:08.630]  More.
[56:08.630 --> 56:09.190]  Thank you, 경우에는.
[56:18.010 --> 56:18.590]  Bye-bye.
[56:18.590 --> 56:19.590]  Thank you, sir.
[56:20.110 --> 56:21.670]  Bye-bye.
[56:25.710 --> 56:26.750]  Bye-bye.
[56:27.530 --> 56:32.830]  Hi, I'm David Kenny of Everything Old is New Again.
[56:32.830 --> 56:44.210]  And every Sunday night at 10, please join me then and please support WBAI at our brand new old number, which is 212-209-2950.
[56:44.410 --> 56:48.750]  Again, that's 212-209-2950.
[56:49.170 --> 56:51.970]  Hey, it's our old number, but it's new again.
[56:52.270 --> 56:55.290]  Because everything old is new again.
[56:55.510 --> 56:56.390]  I like it.
[57:04.830 --> 57:08.750]  Hi, this is Hannah from WBAI's premiums department.
[57:09.090 --> 57:19.630]  As you may know, WBAI now has a new phone number to call to make donations or to pledge for premiums at 212-209-2950.
[57:20.210 --> 57:25.650]  Thank you for being a WBAI member and for making a contribution to keep the station afloat.
[57:25.790 --> 57:30.150]  But if you have a question about a premium, please do not call that number.
[57:30.150 --> 57:37.170]  All the call center can do is take down the info and send it to premiums at WBAI.org.
[57:37.490 --> 57:39.050]  And time on the line costs us money.
[57:39.490 --> 57:43.150]  Instead, please email us directly with your question or concern.
[57:43.430 --> 57:51.570]  The email is premiums at WBAI.org or call 212-209-2870.
[57:51.570 --> 57:54.330]  We promise to get back to you within a week's time.
[57:54.590 --> 58:06.350]  Again, please call 212-209-2870 if you have a question about a premium you ordered or email premiums at WBAI.org.
[00:00.770 --> 00:03.490]  Okay, I think we're live on YouTube.
[00:04.130 --> 00:07.730]  Can you guys out in Skypeland confirm that we are live on YouTube?
[00:09.850 --> 00:11.410]  Can you confirm that you can hear me?
[00:12.610 --> 00:13.610]  We can hear you.
[00:13.710 --> 00:15.330]  We can hear you, and we are streaming.
[00:15.610 --> 00:20.630]  Okay, good, because we're having some little red lights, and we're not sure, so we might be having trouble.
[00:21.390 --> 00:24.050]  And if that's so, then I'm sorry.
[00:24.230 --> 00:25.130]  There's nothing we can do about it.
[00:25.950 --> 00:27.490]  We are indeed live on YouTube.
[00:27.810 --> 00:28.050]  Okay.
[00:29.090 --> 00:29.870]  Sad show.
[00:30.010 --> 00:32.210]  Boy, that was something.
[00:32.430 --> 00:34.870]  I know, Alex, you had something to add at the end.
[00:35.030 --> 00:40.490]  Unfortunately, we ran out of time, but please share with us what you wanted to say about Bob Fass.
[00:41.530 --> 00:43.830]  I mean, it's obvious to me.
[00:43.990 --> 00:45.730]  It's just such a force of WBAI.
[00:45.850 --> 00:50.390]  I remember him from a long time ago with the 505 8th Avenue days.
[00:50.550 --> 00:50.850]  Oh, yeah.
[00:52.010 --> 00:54.490]  Was that three or four stations ago?
[00:54.730 --> 00:55.550]  Three or four offices ago?
[00:55.550 --> 00:56.190]  Well, let's see.
[00:56.310 --> 01:04.350]  It was 505 8th Avenue, then we went to Wall Street, then we went up to City University in Harlem, and then we wound up in Brooklyn.
[01:04.730 --> 01:06.730]  I didn't want to say that like we wound up in Brooklyn.
[01:06.890 --> 01:08.030]  That's where we finished.
[01:08.150 --> 01:10.330]  That's where we are now, even though we're not there now.
[01:10.790 --> 01:11.490]  You know what I mean?
[01:11.490 --> 01:11.610]  Yeah.
[01:12.550 --> 01:13.430]  I do.
[01:13.630 --> 01:14.070]  Yeah, I do.
[01:14.230 --> 01:22.070]  But I mean, it's just for so many years, for so many decades, I mean, the guy's been, you know, he was an organizer, he's an agitator, he's a commentator, he's a creator.
[01:23.110 --> 01:32.690]  Obviously, an inspirer of so many, that I think the after effects of his life will probably be felt for a very, very long time.
[01:32.830 --> 01:36.130]  It's like throwing a huge stone into a big pond.
[01:36.450 --> 01:42.070]  I think the ripples of Bob Fass's life will be felt for probably decades, maybe even another century.
[01:42.070 --> 01:47.490]  Well, especially if 10,000 hours of tape are being digitized at Columbia University.
[01:47.490 --> 01:50.010]  That is, is just terrific to know.
[01:50.210 --> 02:00.250]  And it's so it's so important to save these things to save radio, to save television broadcasts, but they're, they're, they're time capsules of our past.
[02:00.250 --> 02:06.150]  And, you know, I always have this enthusiasm whenever I find some other collection.
[02:06.890 --> 02:16.610]  And, you know, if you're somebody who, who records things, record everything, don't edit out things, you know, let people do that later.
[02:16.710 --> 02:30.230]  Because, you know, for instance, somebody who records television broadcasts, so many people edit out the commercials, the commercials are the most interesting part, the programs you can get on DVD, but the commercials, you can't see those anymore.
[02:30.250 --> 02:34.110]  And they tell so much of, you know, a story of our culture.
[02:34.810 --> 02:41.510]  Same thing with radio, you know, just grab it all, grab the, you know, the, the snafus, the sign offs.
[02:41.950 --> 02:42.950]  It's all magic.
[02:43.010 --> 02:45.050]  And it brings back such memories.
[02:47.990 --> 02:49.430]  Yeah, that's, that's definitely true.
[02:49.550 --> 02:54.210]  I mean, as a kid, I wanted to fit as much of my programs onto my tapes as I as I could.
[02:54.210 --> 02:55.870]  So I edited out the commercials.
[02:56.410 --> 02:58.470]  And, you know, all those tapes are long thrown away.
[02:58.470 --> 03:03.550]  Because like I said, you can get the TV shows that were on them by by normal means nowadays.
[03:04.070 --> 03:19.250]  But had I had I taped the commercials back then, like, you can go on YouTube now and see like, just these strips of commercials that people did save, you can go on archive.org as well, and see these strips of just regular programming, people did save these ephemeral things that nobody at the time thought would be worth keeping.
[03:19.250 --> 03:22.130]  But, of course, they're, they're fascinating to look back on.
[03:22.630 --> 03:29.490]  Just just yesterday, I was talking to Gila about like a random phrase that came up in some commercial that was on all the time, when I was a kid.
[03:29.690 --> 03:33.670]  And today, I was able to, to dig that up on online and show it to her.
[03:34.130 --> 03:37.450]  And yeah, it's, it's really, it's really quite a feeling.
[03:37.610 --> 03:38.650]  What was the random phrase?
[03:38.830 --> 03:40.250]  I got to ask, what was the random phrase?
[03:41.090 --> 03:49.610]  It was it was it was a company that would do like, like facades on buildings, and they would come back to this refrain where they would announce brick face, stucco and stone face.
[03:50.410 --> 03:53.830]  And, and, you know, those were their specialties.
[03:53.990 --> 03:57.510]  But, you know, they just said it in such a such a way that like hit me when I was a child.
[03:58.110 --> 04:00.530]  And, yeah, I was able to hear it again.
[04:00.690 --> 04:01.390]  And it was special.
[04:02.350 --> 04:02.670]  Wow.
[04:02.670 --> 04:09.610]  Um, yeah, so the thing for me is, I, I grew up in a different part of the country.
[04:09.770 --> 04:23.690]  I didn't know about Bob Fass, when I was growing up, but learning about him, again, in the last few days, I did not know that he debuted Alice's restaurant to the world on his show.
[04:23.890 --> 04:32.410]  And we were actually just talking about Alice's restaurant a couple days ago is telling Rob, we had a songbook, in my house, and it had Alice's restaurant in it.
[04:32.410 --> 04:39.110]  It had sheet music for the choruses, and then just the entire, like, monologue section was just written out.
[04:39.250 --> 04:41.390]  It said, keep playing this, read this.
[04:41.570 --> 04:42.270]  It was amazing.
[04:42.690 --> 04:53.290]  Um, but thinking about, you know, also listening to him pitching for the station, the phone numbers are different, the address is different, and the cost of a membership is different.
[04:53.490 --> 04:54.410]  Not by much.
[04:54.530 --> 04:55.330]  Not by that much.
[04:55.330 --> 04:56.010]  Not by much.
[04:56.190 --> 04:57.690]  No, it's an, it's an amazing savings.
[04:57.930 --> 05:02.630]  But, the fact that we were listening to this show from when my parents were teenagers.
[05:03.170 --> 05:03.690]  Wow.
[05:04.190 --> 05:11.430]  And, my parents were teenagers, and not that much has changed overall.
[05:11.430 --> 05:21.310]  And hearing the spirit that he brought to it, and also, what it took to get between Tiny Tim and a microphone, was huge.
[05:21.530 --> 05:23.730]  He shut Tiny Tim down from playing.
[05:24.010 --> 05:30.070]  And I don't know if people realize what a difficult thing that was to do.
[05:30.390 --> 05:36.550]  Well, hearing Tiny Tim helping to sign the station off, that, you know, live in the studio, that was all going on live.
[05:36.870 --> 05:37.770]  That's magic.
[05:38.330 --> 05:42.030]  That was the most incredible thing.
[05:42.390 --> 05:45.370]  And, um, we've been watching Laugh-In.
[05:45.450 --> 05:46.690]  Laugh-In is streaming on Amazon.
[05:46.910 --> 05:50.630]  And we got to see, like, when Tiny Tim was introduced on Laugh-In.
[05:51.310 --> 05:59.170]  And knowing that that was coming down the pike soon, it's an amazing thing to, you know, locate it in history.
[05:59.170 --> 06:05.930]  Um, also, before I forget, if you want to call us, you can call us, um, right now.
[06:06.070 --> 06:10.370]  But also, if you can't get through on the phone, we are monitoring our Twitter feed.
[06:10.390 --> 06:15.050]  So, if you want to tweet at us, at Hacker Radio Show, we're keeping an eye on it.
[06:15.190 --> 06:20.450]  Also, you can call us at 802-321-HACK, or toll-free at 833-755-2600.
[06:21.130 --> 06:21.790]  That's right.
[06:22.030 --> 06:36.390]  Uh, and if you have any, uh, stories that, um, you want to share with either of the, um, the people that we've been remembering tonight, um, Dan Kaminsky or, uh, Bob Fass, uh, please call us and, and, and, and share those stories.
[06:36.810 --> 06:39.310]  This is, this is certainly the time to do that.
[06:40.210 --> 06:49.090]  Um, talking about, uh, uh, Tiny Tim, though, uh, I, I think when, when he debuted on Laugh-In, I think that was, that was well after he was on Bob Fass' show.
[06:49.230 --> 06:50.150]  Am I, am I correct in that?
[06:51.030 --> 06:53.030]  Uh, it was about a year, I think?
[06:53.150 --> 06:56.610]  Because his, his album was released in 1968, and that show was from 1967.
[06:58.030 --> 06:59.410]  Yeah, I think that's what she was saying.
[06:59.610 --> 06:59.870]  Yeah.
[07:00.650 --> 07:01.450]  It was after?
[07:01.670 --> 07:05.270]  Yeah, I think, that's how I heard what you were saying, but...
[07:05.870 --> 07:11.670]  Yeah, I mean, it was, it was coming, but even, I also fell down a little Wikipedia hole.
[07:11.830 --> 07:19.650]  I was looking up Tiny Tim in the break between the show and Overtime, and, yeah, he'd been performing around New York City for four or five years already.
[07:19.650 --> 07:29.490]  He really stepped into that persona in 1963, but to hear how, you know, um, solid it was even at that time, just absolutely incredible.
[07:29.730 --> 07:42.090]  And also, if you haven't seen the episode of Laugh-In, where Tiny Tim debuts, and you get to watch Dan Rowan and Dick Martin reacting to Tiny Tim, it is absolutely incredible.
[07:42.330 --> 07:43.210]  Highly recommend it.
[07:43.210 --> 07:58.250]  Yeah, yeah, that's, uh, I remember that as a, as a small child, uh, but, um, there was, there was just so, so much incredible, um, history, uh, that went out over the airwaves, as far as, uh, you know, you mentioned Alice's Restaurant.
[07:58.250 --> 08:17.390]  I sure hope there are, there are tapes of that somewhere, um, but, um, as, as I, I mentioned, Bob Dylan, you know, having, having him as a relatively unknown artist, um, Richie Havens, Joni Mitchell, Muddy Waters, Frank Zappa, they were all on the show.
[08:17.970 --> 08:37.870]  Uh, he gave airtime to poets like, uh, Allen Ginsberg, Gregory Corso, um, staged a recitation of Waiting for Godot, and, um, he once brought in, this is great, he once brought in people he identified as representatives of Stamp Out Smut, which was an organization opposed to the performances of Lenny Bruce.
[08:38.630 --> 08:44.210]  And then, underscoring his own political slant, he followed up with a recording of a Lenny Bruce monologue.
[08:46.090 --> 08:46.690]  Oh, yeah.
[08:48.070 --> 08:50.150]  Our phone number, 802-321-4225.
[08:50.290 --> 08:51.450]  Uh, Kyle, is the ringer on?
[08:51.530 --> 08:53.630]  Because I know we sometimes turn it off, so I want to make sure.
[08:54.230 --> 08:54.630]  Okay.
[08:54.770 --> 08:56.330]  It is on, it wasn't on before.
[08:56.590 --> 09:02.170]  I had it off during, during, uh, some of the, um, New York Times obits.
[09:02.290 --> 09:02.590]  Yeah.
[09:02.810 --> 09:03.630]  It was interrupting.
[09:03.690 --> 09:04.350]  It was interrupting.
[09:04.550 --> 09:04.830]  So, what?
[09:04.830 --> 09:07.110]  We got a call from 0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.
[09:07.110 --> 09:08.310]  That means it's a toll-free number.
[09:08.630 --> 09:09.030]  Yeah.
[09:09.410 --> 09:10.790]  I think somebody called on a toll-free number.
[09:10.970 --> 09:13.810]  Well, the phone number again, 802-321-4225.
[09:14.130 --> 09:15.410]  Uh, Gila, what was the toll-free number again?
[09:16.270 --> 09:19.190]  It's 833-755-2600.
[09:19.490 --> 09:19.710]  Okay.
[09:20.590 --> 09:26.390]  Operators are standing by, so if there's something that, uh, you'd like to, um, say to us, please, uh, please call now.
[09:26.950 --> 09:32.270]  Um, getting back to Dan Kaminsky, uh, were there any other, um, um, stories?
[09:32.270 --> 09:40.370]  I, I have, uh, an excerpt, actually, another excerpt I can play, of, um, him at Chaos Communication Congress in, uh, I believe 2010.
[09:42.390 --> 09:43.550]  Um, we can get to that.
[09:43.670 --> 09:45.850]  We'll take this phone call, then we can, we can get to that.
[09:45.850 --> 09:48.210]  But any, any other stories, please, uh, please share.
[09:49.070 --> 09:49.810]  Good evening.
[09:49.810 --> 09:51.370]  You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
[09:51.450 --> 09:51.670]  Go ahead.
[09:52.510 --> 09:53.470]  Well, hello there.
[09:53.770 --> 09:54.130]  How you doing?
[09:54.910 --> 09:55.470]  Pretty good.
[09:55.570 --> 09:57.190]  Sad to hear...
[09:57.190 --> 09:59.490]  Sorry, I didn't expect to get on so fast.
[09:59.830 --> 10:01.670]  Uh, sorry to hear about Bob Fass.
[10:02.030 --> 10:02.510]  Yeah.
[10:02.950 --> 10:05.250]  Oh, man, I had almost forgotten about him.
[10:05.430 --> 10:10.250]  I slept through so many Monday classes in high school.
[10:12.050 --> 10:16.990]  Because I was up all night, Sunday night, listening to him, and I think Steve Post.
[10:17.350 --> 10:17.790]  Wow.
[10:17.930 --> 10:20.010]  So long ago, I don't remember whether they were together.
[10:20.150 --> 10:22.410]  I remember Marshall Efron used to show up.
[10:23.590 --> 10:24.030]  Wow.
[10:25.010 --> 10:26.590]  So he was on Sunday night.
[10:26.690 --> 10:30.490]  I remember him being on Thursday night, but he used to do a show every night, I believe, right?
[10:31.490 --> 10:32.950]  Boy, I don't remember that.
[10:33.010 --> 10:35.290]  I just remember being a wreck on Monday.
[10:36.010 --> 10:37.810]  A happy wreck, but a wreck.
[10:37.970 --> 10:38.230]  Uh-huh.
[10:38.830 --> 10:41.590]  Oh, boy, that was three lifetimes ago for me.
[10:41.770 --> 10:42.570]  That's amazing.
[10:42.570 --> 10:46.130]  Any other memories of BAI or radio in general you can share?
[10:46.690 --> 10:50.950]  No, just once that I called in when I was like an early teenager.
[10:51.390 --> 10:57.090]  And I was so petrified when I finally got on the radio that I couldn't talk.
[10:57.310 --> 10:58.810]  But other than that, nothing.
[10:58.990 --> 11:03.010]  I mean, I've been with WBAI almost all my whole life, so...
[11:03.010 --> 11:03.390]  Wow.
[11:04.110 --> 11:04.510]  Yeah.
[11:05.110 --> 11:05.790]  And you.
[11:06.350 --> 11:10.430]  And you, and I shouldn't ask you this because it sucks so you can hang up on me.
[11:10.770 --> 11:12.690]  Will we ever hear from Bernie again?
[11:13.030 --> 11:13.690]  Sure, yeah.
[11:13.890 --> 11:14.190]  Absolutely.
[11:14.330 --> 11:14.930]  He's in the community.
[11:15.750 --> 11:18.750]  You know, it's just a question of how many people can you put on the air at the same time.
[11:19.410 --> 11:22.430]  Sometimes there's too many, and we always, you know, we try to keep it fresh.
[11:22.830 --> 11:24.190]  But he's still out there.
[11:24.310 --> 11:25.130]  He's still out there.
[11:25.130 --> 11:36.630]  And I'm sure when we have, whenever the next hope is going to be, not the conference call, the next hope, but the hope that follows in history, he will be there as well.
[11:36.870 --> 11:40.010]  And front stage and all that.
[11:40.550 --> 11:40.890]  Well, good.
[11:41.010 --> 11:41.770]  I miss his voice.
[11:42.270 --> 11:45.170]  Anyway, I'll let you go and somebody else talk.
[11:45.290 --> 11:49.810]  And I'm glad you're there and you've been part of my life for a long time.
[11:49.910 --> 11:51.310]  Well, hopefully a positive influence.
[11:51.730 --> 11:53.010]  Well, I don't know about that.
[11:54.250 --> 11:54.730]  All right.
[11:54.910 --> 11:55.550]  Have a good one.
[11:55.690 --> 11:55.910]  Thanks.
[11:56.310 --> 11:56.570]  Thank you.
[11:57.590 --> 11:57.950]  Yeah.
[11:59.530 --> 12:00.550]  Should have quit while I was at it.
[12:00.570 --> 12:01.450]  Well, I was a first caller.
[12:01.750 --> 12:02.030]  Yeah.
[12:02.170 --> 12:02.590]  Very honest.
[12:03.570 --> 12:03.930]  Absolutely.
[12:04.530 --> 12:06.970]  I mean, pretty incredible to hear about this.
[12:07.090 --> 12:11.550]  I mean, it just goes to show, you know, the impact that you can make in somebody's life.
[12:11.730 --> 12:14.730]  I mean, honestly, it's really nice to hear somebody say that.
[12:14.890 --> 12:20.470]  I mean, Emmanuel, if you think about it, I mean, for God's sake, this show is going to be 33.
[12:21.090 --> 12:21.370]  Right?
[12:21.610 --> 12:22.830]  Isn't that the case?
[12:23.010 --> 12:23.530]  Is that right, Rob?
[12:23.710 --> 12:23.950]  You're the...
[12:23.950 --> 12:24.730]  I think it's...
[12:24.730 --> 12:25.270]  Hold on a second.
[12:25.630 --> 12:26.850]  Our first show is 88.
[12:28.050 --> 12:29.370]  So that would be...
[12:29.370 --> 12:30.290]  Yeah, I guess it is 33.
[12:31.070 --> 12:31.250]  Yeah.
[12:31.570 --> 12:31.810]  All right.
[12:31.870 --> 12:32.850]  I mean, it's 33.
[12:33.250 --> 12:33.590]  Great.
[12:34.050 --> 12:35.190]  It's pretty incredible.
[12:35.490 --> 12:36.410]  I mean, that's a huge impact.
[12:36.630 --> 12:40.770]  And tying that back to Dan, too, is the fact that even...
[12:41.410 --> 13:02.630]  I think it's also obviously a testament to him personally, but also the culture and the type of people that are attracted to the hacker culture that in a life as short as 42 years can make such a huge impact like that and have such a far reach and have people memorialize you with either across the entire world,
[13:02.770 --> 13:05.530]  across the internet, on radio stations and YouTube everywhere.
[13:06.790 --> 13:17.410]  I think it's, again, it's a real testament to the spirit of being a hacker and that we're the type, I guess, like the Kurgan said in Highlander, right?
[13:17.510 --> 13:19.930]  You know, we'd rather burn out than fade away, right?
[13:20.030 --> 13:23.670]  You know, we just keep going, full steam, as long as we possibly can.
[13:24.290 --> 13:28.170]  And that is probably the first time the Highlander has ever been quoted on this show.
[13:28.170 --> 13:29.010]  So...
[13:29.830 --> 13:31.390]  But certainly not the last.
[13:31.850 --> 13:32.190]  Really?
[13:32.390 --> 13:33.670]  Okay, fine.
[13:34.670 --> 13:36.250]  Take care of yourselves, though.
[13:36.430 --> 13:36.750]  Yes.
[13:36.990 --> 13:37.970]  You gotta...
[13:37.970 --> 13:52.310]  You know, it's great to burn the midnight oil and, you know, go hard with your pursuits and so forth, but it's important to also know when to rest as well.
[13:53.330 --> 13:54.130]  That's right.
[13:54.130 --> 13:58.670]  Um, 8-0-2-3-2-1-4-2-2-2-5.
[13:59.090 --> 14:04.290]  So I'm looking at statistics here, um, and I don't know if this means anything.
[14:04.510 --> 14:06.850]  Dropped frames 49.8%.
[14:06.850 --> 14:09.010]  That sounds bad, doesn't it?
[14:09.630 --> 14:11.370]  Um, but of course, do we need frames?
[14:11.370 --> 14:14.810]  Because this is YouTube, I know, but, uh, we're not broadcasting video.
[14:15.190 --> 14:18.010]  It's something with, uh, our connectivity.
[14:18.010 --> 14:24.870]  I'll look into it, but I think, um, some of the upgrades and some changes that, uh, we've been working on...
[14:24.870 --> 14:25.470]  I hate upgrades.
[14:25.710 --> 14:27.090]  Upgrades always cause problems.
[14:27.370 --> 14:28.150]  I hate upgrades.
[14:28.650 --> 14:39.430]  It, there's been some, some, uh, tinkering and, uh, I have to, to, uh, give some devices a good, you know, look at them the right way or something.
[14:39.630 --> 14:40.130]  I don't know.
[14:40.430 --> 14:40.670]  Okay.
[14:41.290 --> 14:44.010]  Uh, Rob, you can confirm we're still, we're still on broadcasting.
[14:44.230 --> 14:44.490]  Okay, right?
[14:45.170 --> 14:47.430]  We are indeed, uh, broadcasting and we sound okay.
[14:47.650 --> 14:48.150]  Okay, good.
[14:48.310 --> 14:50.870]  Well, a lot of listeners be the judge of that.
[14:51.210 --> 14:52.630]  Uh, and we have one on the phone.
[14:52.630 --> 14:54.110]  Good evening, you're on Off the Hook Overtime.
[14:55.230 --> 14:55.710]  Hi.
[14:55.990 --> 14:56.390]  How you doing?
[14:58.250 --> 15:01.850]  Well, Bob Fass is dead.
[15:01.990 --> 15:02.290]  Mm-hmm.
[15:02.750 --> 15:06.130]  So, I used to engineer for him.
[15:06.410 --> 15:06.870]  Oh, really?
[15:07.930 --> 15:08.410]  Yeah.
[15:08.690 --> 15:10.130]  Wow, that must have been an experience.
[15:11.370 --> 15:11.930]  Mm-hmm.
[15:13.490 --> 15:19.910]  With the number of guests, number of people who, uh, pass through that, that room, that is, that is, that is no small task.
[15:20.990 --> 15:21.850]  Mm-hmm.
[15:22.530 --> 15:41.070]  I remember he gave me instructions once, um, I was talking to him about, uh, people playing the guitar squeaking, uh, from chord to chord.
[15:42.190 --> 15:49.770]  And he told, which, you know, that's a mistake, and it's an ear sore.
[15:50.070 --> 15:55.230]  And he said, uh, I like it, uh, it gives...
[15:55.230 --> 15:56.350]  Hello?
[15:57.430 --> 15:58.030]  ...real.
[15:59.070 --> 15:59.910]  Oh, call waiting.
[16:00.050 --> 16:04.070]  And I want you to, to mic it when somebody's coming into play.
[16:04.250 --> 16:20.870]  I want you to, you know, arrange the mic so it'll be pointed right at where the squeaks are coming from so that they'll be as prominent as possible, unless the person playing tells you to do it differently.
[16:22.830 --> 16:42.370]  So, not too long later, uh, a person came with a guitar, and I was setting them up, and I asked them, do you want me to magnify the squeaks, or, or set it up otherwise, to minimize them?
[16:42.690 --> 16:47.530]  And, you know, he was looking at me, you know, this is a ridiculous question.
[16:47.530 --> 17:10.850]  And I'm saying, uh, I'm repeating my question several times over, because I'm saying, if you don't tell me not to, then I have to put it so that they're magnified, because that's Bob's standing instructions, unless you tell me to do it differently.
[17:11.250 --> 17:15.690]  And he actually thought that I was threatening him.
[17:17.530 --> 17:23.430]  Uh, but I finally got through, and he said that he didn't want them magnified, he wanted them minified.
[17:23.650 --> 17:28.110]  So was this a famous artist, maybe, that went on to stardom, that you had this encounter with?
[17:28.830 --> 17:31.390]  I'm afraid, I do not remember who it was.
[17:31.410 --> 17:35.890]  I think it was probably someone who was already well-known, though.
[17:36.330 --> 17:38.810]  But it could have been Frank Zappa or Bob Dylan, it could have been.
[17:39.510 --> 17:42.170]  I, I don't think it was either of them.
[17:42.690 --> 17:43.210]  Hmm.
[17:43.710 --> 17:52.150]  Uh, I, I, I don't think I had any mega-hit people on, uh, to, to play like that.
[17:52.630 --> 18:00.030]  But, uh, uh, you know, I got, I got him to say he wanted me to do it the sensible way.
[18:00.030 --> 18:14.430]  And I did it that way, and then I had to explain to Bob, and I explained to him again, you know, that he thought I was threatening him, because nobody wants their mistakes advertised.
[18:15.510 --> 18:18.130]  And he said, but nobody plays without mistakes.
[18:18.610 --> 18:21.910]  Uh, I said, Julian Bream, that's ridiculous.
[18:22.330 --> 18:23.290]  Of course I do.
[18:23.410 --> 18:23.570]  Who?
[18:24.110 --> 18:25.210]  Julian Bream.
[18:31.370 --> 18:43.390]  Well, you know, I, uh, knowing, uh, what I, what I knew from Bob, um, he, he would relish the imperfections and see the beauty in them.
[18:43.670 --> 18:46.330]  I could see him, I could see him having that argument.
[18:46.970 --> 18:47.550]  I'm sorry?
[18:48.670 --> 18:51.010]  He said so quite clearly, yes.
[18:51.750 --> 18:53.710]  And, you know, his, his whole show was...
[18:53.710 --> 19:00.790]  Artists don't like having their mistakes, uh, magnified.
[19:01.030 --> 19:02.050]  No, for the most part.
[19:02.350 --> 19:02.950]  Even if Bob likes it.
[19:03.210 --> 19:03.750]  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
[19:04.270 --> 19:09.870]  Well, Bob, think of Bob as sort of a documentarian, you know, just capturing everything as it was happening.
[19:10.270 --> 19:13.670]  So, yeah, he would want the imperfections along with the perfect parts.
[19:14.930 --> 19:15.210]  Hmm.
[19:16.270 --> 19:26.230]  But, obviously, the, the artists don't want to be unnecessarily smeared by being miked in the least flattering manner.
[19:26.530 --> 19:27.210]  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
[19:28.790 --> 19:29.270]  So...
[19:29.270 --> 19:29.510]  Wow.
[19:29.730 --> 19:30.830]  Well, thanks for that memory.
[19:31.170 --> 19:35.890]  And, uh, uh, we didn't know that, uh, that you were the engineer, one of the engineers for Bob Fass.
[19:35.890 --> 19:37.790]  That's, uh, that's, uh, that's something incredible.
[19:38.150 --> 19:39.670]  That's definitely a great story.
[19:40.950 --> 19:41.330]  Thank you.
[19:41.930 --> 19:45.810]  This is Eleanor Elizabeth Foreman, who was engineering for him.
[19:46.770 --> 19:47.290]  Okay.
[19:47.550 --> 19:48.130]  That's, that's you.
[19:49.070 --> 19:49.750]  That's me.
[19:49.890 --> 19:50.390]  Okay, great.
[19:50.890 --> 19:58.250]  Well, um, our condolences for everybody, uh, you know, staff and listeners of WBAI.
[19:58.250 --> 20:01.050]  We lost a giant, a true giant, this week.
[20:02.050 --> 20:10.690]  Yeah, I'm, I'm wondering, will Radio Unnameable go on in an unrecognizable form?
[20:11.550 --> 20:18.770]  Well, you know, when we lost Grandpa Al Lewis, uh, his Saturday show went on for quite some time afterwards, so it's entirely possible.
[20:19.530 --> 20:22.390]  Yeah, that's right, we had Grandpa Al Lewis on our airwaves.
[20:23.890 --> 20:29.550]  BAI has some strange, um, history, and, um, that was, that was one of the best parts.
[20:29.710 --> 20:32.470]  Yeah, he came up behind me and punched me in the head once.
[20:32.590 --> 20:34.930]  Oh, that's a, that's a different story for a different time.
[20:35.110 --> 20:36.670]  I don't want to hear about this now.
[20:39.070 --> 20:40.390]  But, but thanks.
[20:40.690 --> 20:45.190]  And when I complained it hurt, I did it again to show that it didn't really hurt.
[20:46.730 --> 20:49.030]  Well, he should have done it to his own head the second time.
[20:49.170 --> 20:49.950]  It hurt badly, too.
[20:50.290 --> 20:50.670]  Wow.
[20:51.510 --> 20:59.790]  All right, well, um, I guess you have stories for a lot of people at BAI, and, uh, we should definitely, we should compile them into, uh, some kind of other documentary.
[21:00.770 --> 21:05.330]  Um, thanks for the, uh, thanks for the call, and, uh, we're going to, uh, move on.
[21:05.590 --> 21:06.810]  But, um, wow.
[21:09.450 --> 21:13.850]  802-321-4225 is our phone number.
[21:14.650 --> 21:16.030]  Um, what do you guys think?
[21:17.890 --> 21:34.150]  I think I could definitely see the appeal of, uh, as, uh, as, uh, as Eleanor was saying, you know, the appeal of, um, having the mistakes hearable, um, just because you want to know that there's a reason to have the person live in studio there, and it's a real thing you're listening to rather than just putting on a record.
[21:34.650 --> 21:53.310]  But, um, also, it, it, it's, it's all part of how, um, Bob Fass, like, he, he was at the station since, since the, uh, very beginning, and he, uh, like, the spirit of what he was doing and how he was doing it is so embedded in the way we, uh, we prefer to do things at WBAI.
[21:53.470 --> 21:56.190]  Like, this isn't a glitzy, uh, Hollywood production.
[21:56.430 --> 21:59.510]  This isn't, like, some massive, uh, you know, radio concern.
[21:59.710 --> 22:04.910]  This is a bunch of people who are as eclectic and interesting as the city we're all in.
[22:04.910 --> 22:12.250]  Um, just, uh, putting, putting bits of ourselves out there and, uh, and the things that interest us and the things we encounter and sharing it with the listenership.
[22:12.470 --> 22:12.870]  Amen.
[22:13.070 --> 22:14.330]  And that's, it's community radio.
[22:14.530 --> 22:14.890]  Mm-hmm.
[22:15.230 --> 22:15.630]  Absolutely.
[22:16.230 --> 22:17.330]  We have a caller.
[22:17.970 --> 22:19.170]  Speaking of listeners, good evening.
[22:19.370 --> 22:20.410]  You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
[22:21.390 --> 22:22.390]  Oh, uh, hello.
[22:22.710 --> 22:23.070]  How you doing?
[22:23.790 --> 22:26.450]  Um, oh, yeah, I'm, uh, a little nervous.
[22:27.250 --> 22:31.010]  I've, uh, I've been listening to you guys since probably 1999.
[22:31.610 --> 22:32.010]  Wow.
[22:32.570 --> 22:33.250]  Off and on.
[22:33.250 --> 22:43.750]  Um, I am, I'm in Virginia, uh, but there was one time where I was, uh, driving through New York and caught it on, caught it live.
[22:44.290 --> 22:46.310]  It was something I always wanted to do.
[22:46.910 --> 22:50.370]  Um, so I had a question that's a little bit off topic.
[22:50.630 --> 22:50.990]  Sure.
[22:51.990 --> 22:57.290]  Uh, I wanted to get you guys' opinion on, uh, Richard Stallman rejoining the Free Software Foundation.
[22:57.810 --> 22:59.110]  Um, wow.
[22:59.370 --> 23:01.430]  Uh, that's, that's a can of worms.
[23:02.190 --> 23:03.010]  Yeah, I know.
[23:03.010 --> 23:06.910]  I, I, I kind of thought maybe you wouldn't want to talk about it, but, uh...
[23:06.910 --> 23:11.990]  Well, I mean, it's just a question of, uh, will we ever stop talking about it?
[23:13.070 --> 23:14.070]  It's, it's, um...
[23:14.070 --> 23:15.130]  What makes you ask?
[23:15.270 --> 23:16.710]  Well, what's your concern in this?
[23:16.750 --> 23:18.610]  I'll bet it's curiosity, but what's...
[23:18.610 --> 23:19.070]  Just curious...
[23:19.070 --> 23:19.330]  Yeah.
[23:20.350 --> 23:21.230]  Um, well...
[23:21.230 --> 23:21.730]  Or what prompted...
[23:21.730 --> 23:29.990]  As far as I can see from reading into it, uh, the backlash against the Biden, it just doesn't seem justified to me.
[23:31.570 --> 23:32.010]  Um...
[23:32.010 --> 23:35.530]  Well, again, um, you know, I, I, I don't...
[23:35.530 --> 23:39.150]  We don't have a, a, a unified stance on anything.
[23:39.150 --> 23:41.410]  You know, everybody has their own opinion.
[23:41.730 --> 23:54.310]  Personally, I can't see the advantage to having somebody who, uh, is in the midst of all kinds of, uh, uh, negativity, which, uh, persists.
[23:54.850 --> 24:02.970]  I don't see what, why, um, you would, you would put yourself out there and, um, and, and double down.
[24:03.430 --> 24:04.790]  It doesn't seem right.
[24:04.930 --> 24:19.230]  I mean, it seems like you're, you're just making it harder on a lot of other people who now feel conflicted because, you know, they want to support what the organization does, but they can support what the organization, uh, is doing in this particular case.
[24:19.950 --> 24:22.830]  I, it, I, it just doesn't seem like it was thought through.
[24:23.130 --> 24:29.450]  And, uh, unfortunately, now they're in a bad position where they, they look bad if they back down, they look bad if they, if they move forward.
[24:30.070 --> 24:35.210]  Um, it just, uh, it wasn't an issue until they made it an issue, you know?
[24:36.030 --> 24:36.950]  Yeah, that's the thing.
[24:37.110 --> 24:39.450]  I just, you know, so kind of conflicted on it.
[24:39.690 --> 24:43.010]  Um, uh, well, kind of a related question.
[24:43.190 --> 24:45.950]  Would you ever have them on a, on a hope conference again?
[24:46.390 --> 24:48.230]  It's, it's not my decision.
[24:48.230 --> 24:57.350]  I mean, I don't decree, uh, who speaks and who doesn't, but I would imagine that, um, uh, many in the hope staff would have profound problems with that.
[24:57.470 --> 24:58.550]  And I respect that.
[25:00.650 --> 25:02.970]  Yeah, I can, I mean, I can see it on both sides.
[25:03.370 --> 25:05.770]  Um, well, I mean, it's a good discussion.
[25:06.110 --> 25:06.470]  Absolutely.
[25:06.730 --> 25:07.370]  It's a good discussion.
[25:07.670 --> 25:09.150]  Uh, we should talk about it.
[25:09.290 --> 25:21.390]  We should, uh, definitely present pros and cons, but, you know, you have to be sensitive to, um, um, um, people who are hurt by, by actions and, and, and by things in the past.
[25:21.610 --> 25:22.810]  You have to listen to them.
[25:22.990 --> 25:24.090]  You have to respect them.
[25:24.590 --> 25:26.470]  And, uh, it doesn't seem like that's what's happening.
[25:28.090 --> 25:28.890]  We're also...
[25:28.890 --> 25:29.230]  Okay.
[25:30.310 --> 25:31.170]  I'm sorry, go ahead, Kyle.
[25:31.250 --> 25:35.290]  I just want to add, we're also in an environment that's evolved and evolving.
[25:35.290 --> 25:46.530]  So, um, we need to kind of respect change and, um, different attitudes and really kind of listen for it.
[25:47.070 --> 25:49.050]  So, I don't know.
[25:49.190 --> 26:07.010]  It's something that, um, we're going to continue to follow, but it's, it's, uh, it's going to have to be a little bit less, uh, hostile, I guess, in, in, in, uh, commanding leadership just by decree, even like by decree.
[26:07.130 --> 26:07.290]  Yeah.
[26:07.430 --> 26:10.910]  And it doesn't get less hostile by actions like this.
[26:10.950 --> 26:14.310]  You know, that makes it more hostile and, and it's, it's not a good thing.
[26:14.390 --> 26:15.770]  I believe, uh, Rob, you have something?
[26:17.230 --> 26:17.550]  Yeah.
[26:17.830 --> 26:21.970]  The, uh, the thing about this is the manner in which it was done.
[26:22.410 --> 26:28.730]  And, uh, you know, even before that, I personally, and I speak only for myself here, no, not for anyone else on these airwaves.
[26:28.870 --> 26:35.670]  Uh, I don't, I don't presume to do that, but you know, just for myself, I'm fine leaving him out of everything forevermore.
[26:36.170 --> 26:52.410]  Um, because I believe the things that, uh, people with complaints about him have said, but, um, beyond that, like the way in which he was put back into the organization, the way the free software foundation did it covertly, the way they hid this from people running their own event that was going on at the same time,
[26:52.550 --> 27:00.830]  the way they, uh, you know, they could have put it out there, you know, in the spirit of free software, in the spirit of the open source community and said, you know, here's, here's an issue that we're facing.
[27:00.830 --> 27:02.090]  Here's a choice we have to make.
[27:02.190 --> 27:03.070]  Help us decide.
[27:03.290 --> 27:04.070]  Help us decide.
[27:04.230 --> 27:05.250]  Yeah, give us your input.
[27:05.450 --> 27:05.650]  You're right.
[27:06.590 --> 27:08.110]  And that's a very good parallel.
[27:08.470 --> 27:10.790]  That's a very good comparison you're making, Rob.
[27:11.170 --> 27:20.270]  You know, the free software, the values of free software, if they had applied that to something like this, it would have been a much healthier discussion, at least.
[27:21.030 --> 27:24.410]  You know, and it wouldn't be quite so negative.
[27:24.570 --> 27:25.730]  Alex, I think you want to say something, too?
[27:25.730 --> 27:27.030]  Yeah.
[27:27.330 --> 27:50.630]  I mean, putting the merits or the demerits of the allegations against Richard Stallman to one side, following Rob's point that the board did this in an absolutely idiotic way, is also the fact that the board did this in a way that was completely antithetical to the best interests of the Free Software Foundation itself.
[27:50.630 --> 27:58.170]  Because by putting this guy back on the board, you are going to definitely lose a hell of a lot of donations, corporate support.
[27:58.510 --> 28:05.470]  A lot of these big companies that are sending me over to the Free Software Foundation are no longer going to do that.
[28:05.670 --> 28:23.890]  And just also as a matter of corporate governance here, as a nonprofit corporation, but as a nonprofit, one thing that should be considered for nonprofits that would avoid the situation from happening in the future would be to require term limits for certain board members.
[28:24.050 --> 28:37.410]  Because if there were term limits on board members for nonprofits, arguably like there should be, Richard Stallman wouldn't be a member of that board, and you'd have a constant refreshing of new blood coming on that board, let's say, every decade.
[28:37.410 --> 28:46.830]  Because the people that voted to bring him back in, obviously don't share the same kind of sentiment that we do in this decade and this time and age.
[28:47.050 --> 28:52.150]  If there were term limits, I think there would be a greater likelihood of people sharing those sentiments.
[28:52.350 --> 28:52.510]  Keela?
[28:53.270 --> 29:04.130]  I think that, Alex, what you're saying may or may not be true, because I could also see that regardless of what the rules are, there being like an ex officio carve-out for someone in that kind of a position.
[29:04.130 --> 29:10.570]  So I'm not sure how corporate governance on the board in that way might have gotten, you know, avoided this situation.
[29:10.570 --> 29:19.870]  I think the fact that the board and the staff seem to be at cross-purposes with the announcement in this particular situation was really not helpful for anyone.
[29:19.870 --> 29:39.450]  But I think there's also the bigger question, and again, speaking for myself and myself only, but the bigger question of when do we say, oh, the things that you're good at overshadow or are more important than your behavior and how you make other people in our community feel.
[29:39.450 --> 30:01.630]  And when we continuously say that the behavior of a few people who have indeed done something significant, but have made dozens or hundreds of people feel uncomfortable, leave the field because of their experiences, what's the balance that we have to strike when we say one person is more important than all of these others?
[30:01.870 --> 30:02.030]  Yeah.
[30:02.130 --> 30:03.190]  What's the message that we're sending?
[30:03.190 --> 30:11.910]  You know, I think whenever we put people on pedestals, we're almost always disappointed by what they do.
[30:12.330 --> 30:28.450]  And if I can just go back to the polar opposite of what we're talking about here, Dan Kaminsky, there's somebody who resisted fame, resisted being put on a pedestal and wound up being treasured and valued more than almost anyone.
[30:29.910 --> 30:47.750]  I think we have to look at that to avoid future situations like this, where somebody, their personality is so strong, their name means so much that you're willing to sacrifice the standing of your organization just to keep it.
[30:47.870 --> 30:55.410]  You know, I think there's something to be said for taking a good hard look at where it is you're coming from and what you truly believe in.
[30:55.890 --> 30:59.590]  And unfortunately, that's been exposed by these latest actions.
[30:59.750 --> 31:03.410]  Caller, I sure hope this answers your question, because it definitely opened up the discussion.
[31:04.490 --> 31:06.470]  Well, I know it's, you know, it's a complicated...
[31:06.470 --> 31:09.670]  I just kind of wanted to, you know, get everyone's pondering.
[31:09.850 --> 31:15.410]  And I didn't expect a hard, you know, definitive...
[31:16.310 --> 31:19.650]  Well, I'm glad you brought it up, because it's something interesting that should be talked about.
[31:19.910 --> 31:20.310]  Absolutely.
[31:20.310 --> 31:20.790]  Yeah.
[31:22.030 --> 31:23.730]  Well, thanks a lot for taking my call.
[31:23.970 --> 31:24.190]  All right.
[31:24.250 --> 31:26.490]  Thank you for the question and for listening.
[31:27.230 --> 31:27.670]  Okay.
[31:27.910 --> 31:28.230]  Take care.
[31:29.230 --> 31:33.950]  And our phone number, 802-321-4225, 833-755-2600.
[31:34.890 --> 31:39.690]  We're on for a little while longer here on Off the Hook Overtime, talking about all kinds of...
[31:39.690 --> 31:41.910]  Boy, our listenership, like, doubled.
[31:42.790 --> 31:44.530]  How do people find out what we're talking about?
[31:44.630 --> 31:45.410]  How does that happen?
[31:45.710 --> 31:48.870]  I guess there's an alert that goes out and people jump on.
[31:48.870 --> 31:56.050]  And, yeah, so if you have anything to say or comment or ask us a question that's going to provoke a discussion that will go on forever, go right ahead.
[31:56.230 --> 31:57.570]  Or just thanks for listening.
[31:57.730 --> 31:58.470]  Yes, thanks for listening.
[31:58.530 --> 32:00.870]  I like that he was driving through New York and listened to us.
[32:01.550 --> 32:10.090]  Of course, he apparently, you know what, a confession here.
[32:10.150 --> 32:17.070]  We have caller ID, and I recognize the name here, somebody who might have been involved with Bob Fass.
[32:17.150 --> 32:18.490]  Is that true, caller?
[32:18.650 --> 32:19.370]  Yes, it's true.
[32:19.590 --> 32:19.870]  Okay.
[32:20.130 --> 32:20.770]  I'm sorry.
[32:20.810 --> 32:21.630]  I don't mean to pry.
[32:21.630 --> 32:23.930]  I feel like I violated your privacy by looking at your name.
[32:23.930 --> 32:28.470]  By the way, by the way, by the way, by the way, by the way, by the way, hold on one second while I lower my YouTube.
[32:28.930 --> 32:30.070]  Not my phone, my YouTube.
[32:30.230 --> 32:30.850]  Lower your YouTube.
[32:31.070 --> 32:32.010]  Yeah, that's...
[32:32.010 --> 32:33.510]  Welcome to the 21st century.
[32:33.510 --> 32:37.790]  I was trying to figure out what kind of delay exists between live phone calls and YouTube versus the phone.
[32:37.930 --> 32:38.990]  It's at least a minute.
[32:39.650 --> 32:40.010]  Yeah.
[32:40.290 --> 32:41.610]  Yes, that's my name.
[32:42.570 --> 32:43.930]  Can I say your name?
[32:44.410 --> 32:44.710]  Sure.
[32:44.910 --> 32:50.810]  Bill Prop, who was affiliated with Bob Fass on his radio show, I believe?
[32:51.390 --> 32:52.090]  Yeah, yeah.
[32:52.090 --> 32:54.470]  Yeah, he was the founder, and I was the...
[32:54.470 --> 32:58.630]  I'm listed somewhere in the papers as a co-host or something like that.
[32:58.730 --> 33:02.230]  I was just very honored and glad and privileged to be part of the whole thing.
[33:02.530 --> 33:07.150]  Yeah, I think we all felt that way just as listeners or people who witnessed this.
[33:07.170 --> 33:08.250]  It was truly magic.
[33:08.910 --> 33:09.450]  Yep, yep.
[33:10.330 --> 33:24.430]  By the way, there was a Zoom conference last night after the funeral, and portions of that may be broadcast in his time slot tomorrow on Radio Unamable, what used to be Radio Unamable on Zoom.
[33:24.530 --> 33:29.530]  Linda Perry has to edit it, I think, because there have been a lot of bleeps which will be bleeped out.
[33:29.610 --> 33:30.210]  At a funeral?
[33:30.490 --> 33:32.770]  I guess Bob Fass's funeral, there would be some bleeps.
[33:33.190 --> 33:34.410]  Well, no, it wasn't at his funeral.
[33:34.550 --> 33:34.890]  No, no, no.
[33:35.090 --> 33:35.710]  This was afterwards.
[33:35.870 --> 33:37.970]  Yeah, that later on, last night, in fact.
[33:38.090 --> 33:39.030]  It was like the week.
[33:39.030 --> 33:40.730]  Or so, a free parole on Zoom.
[33:41.070 --> 33:41.370]  Oh.
[33:41.470 --> 33:51.170]  And those things had some things which probably have to be edited out, even though, because of the Carlin case, there's so-called safe harbor law, but it's more complicated than that, I'm afraid.
[33:51.450 --> 33:57.490]  Anyway, I enjoyed listening to the last hour, and this hour, too, including the other material.
[33:58.630 --> 34:02.310]  I don't know where to begin, but I don't want to hog the farm, so cut me off if I'm going to go.
[34:02.310 --> 34:03.170]  No, go right ahead.
[34:03.210 --> 34:04.090]  We want to hear what you have to say.
[34:04.090 --> 34:11.570]  By the way, when you gave it, on the tape you played of, Bob, there was the old phone number, Oxford 7-2288.
[34:11.810 --> 34:13.230]  Yeah, that was something.
[34:14.010 --> 34:20.230]  Around the same time, when I was still in high school, maybe you've heard of it, there was something known as the Anti-Digit Dialing League.
[34:20.410 --> 34:21.690]  No, who were they all about?
[34:22.010 --> 34:26.190]  Well, they didn't want names like, you know, Muriel 8, Oxford 7.
[34:26.430 --> 34:27.650]  They wanted straight numbers.
[34:27.890 --> 34:29.830]  It was all put on, of course.
[34:30.030 --> 34:31.070]  Well, they got what they wanted.
[34:31.350 --> 34:32.770]  Nobody uses that system anymore.
[34:32.770 --> 34:36.810]  I don't know if that was a good thing, but I remember in high school, it was the Anti-Digit Dialing League.
[34:37.030 --> 34:47.290]  So, for those who don't know, and probably a lot of people don't know, Oxford 7, how that worked was, you took the first two letters of the word Oxford, so it would be O and X.
[34:47.450 --> 34:52.970]  So, O, I believe, is 6, and X is 9, so it would be 6, 9, 7.
[34:53.150 --> 34:53.610]  I'm looking now.
[34:53.970 --> 34:54.730]  Yeah, O is a 6.
[34:54.850 --> 34:55.290]  I've got to look.
[34:55.290 --> 34:57.130]  And X is 9, correct?
[34:58.070 --> 34:59.810]  X is 9, correct.
[34:59.970 --> 35:00.170]  All right.
[35:00.290 --> 35:07.370]  So, I don't know why they did it that way, but exchanges were named after Pennsylvania 6, 5000.
[35:07.730 --> 35:08.150]  Exactly.
[35:08.530 --> 35:09.410]  That was a good song.
[35:09.790 --> 35:10.010]  Yeah.
[35:10.250 --> 35:15.950]  I don't know what made the names, because, you know, Hotel Pennsylvania wasn't in Pennsylvania.
[35:16.570 --> 35:17.350]  Although it was called that.
[35:17.430 --> 35:18.250]  No, it was in Statler-Hilton, actually.
[35:18.450 --> 35:20.590]  It changed its name back and forth several times over the decades.
[35:20.590 --> 35:22.930]  Yeah, but did they name the phone exchange after the hotel?
[35:23.150 --> 35:23.710]  Is that what they did?
[35:23.710 --> 35:24.510]  That's a good question.
[35:24.550 --> 35:25.170]  I'm not sure.
[35:25.330 --> 35:26.350]  Well, now I have to find out.
[35:28.590 --> 35:31.230]  Anyway, tell us some stories or facts.
[35:31.750 --> 35:34.870]  Well, going back from that tape, I was just reminiscing.
[35:35.710 --> 35:38.330]  There was something known as the Sweep-In from 1967.
[35:38.370 --> 35:40.410]  I was in that very first Sweep-In.
[35:40.490 --> 35:40.830]  Wow.
[35:40.930 --> 35:49.950]  They chose one block on the lower side to clean it up, embarrassing the sanitation department, which marginalized the whole area.
[35:49.950 --> 35:58.630]  And so once they came and showed up, it was completely clean, so they had to move to another block, not to lose space.
[35:58.750 --> 36:04.950]  So there was a garbage strike going on, and Bob Fass would get his listeners to show up downtown and clean an entire street.
[36:05.350 --> 36:05.590]  Yep.
[36:05.770 --> 36:06.430]  They had brooms.
[36:07.030 --> 36:09.650]  I think Richard Havens, I think, did a song for it.
[36:09.710 --> 36:11.190]  Sweep, sweep, sweepy, broom, broom, broom.
[36:13.010 --> 36:13.390]  Wow.
[36:14.210 --> 36:22.510]  And when they used to sign off at the end of the night, when Bob was usually on midnight till five or so, and then it was only monophonic, by the way.
[36:22.650 --> 36:22.890]  Okay.
[36:23.150 --> 36:27.810]  And somebody who else, whoever came in at six o'clock, had to turn on the transmitter again.
[36:28.030 --> 36:32.670]  But before they signed off, they had to give the frequency and the transmitting power.
[36:32.890 --> 36:35.950]  So I think Steve Post may have innovated this particular thing.
[36:35.950 --> 36:45.390]  We were broadcasting at 5.41 kilowatts horizontal and 3.8 watts kilowatt vertical, depending upon whether you were lying down or standing up.
[36:46.790 --> 36:50.410]  Well, did you hear the sign-off that we played the last hour?
[36:50.830 --> 36:55.630]  We were trying to find that for a day or two ago.
[36:55.750 --> 36:57.730]  We wanted to play that maybe at the funeral.
[36:58.050 --> 37:02.750]  But that little girl, her name was Edie Bookie, Edie Bookie.
[37:02.750 --> 37:06.690]  Now, did they play the little kids saying goodbye every night the station signed off?
[37:06.910 --> 37:07.990]  Pretty much, yes.
[37:08.230 --> 37:08.530]  Wow.
[37:08.790 --> 37:10.510]  That's the last thing you heard before you heard white noise.
[37:11.330 --> 37:12.130]  That's amazing.
[37:12.350 --> 37:14.470]  See, that's what I'm talking about as far as preserving things.
[37:14.850 --> 37:16.170]  I'm just happy somebody...
[37:16.170 --> 37:17.070]  I'm sorry.
[37:17.250 --> 37:18.390]  I'm happy somebody recorded that.
[37:18.650 --> 37:19.070]  They never played the Star-Spangled Banner.
[37:20.170 --> 37:22.170]  No, they never played the Star-Spangled Banner, did they?
[37:22.550 --> 37:22.710]  No.
[37:22.990 --> 37:26.030]  Although, Jose Feliciano once appears alive, I guess, a long time ago.
[37:26.190 --> 37:32.890]  And he was, like, pretty much blackballed for years because he added a little grace note into the... when he sang it at the World Series, I think.
[37:33.350 --> 37:34.490]  And the whole...
[37:35.390 --> 37:36.110]  He breathed.
[37:36.430 --> 37:36.970]  And he was...
[37:36.970 --> 37:38.430]  It was heresy to do that.
[37:38.490 --> 37:38.970]  That was enough.
[37:39.190 --> 37:40.690]  He was, like, marginalized for a long time.
[37:40.890 --> 37:43.410]  Robert Klein has a bit on that, too.
[37:43.630 --> 37:47.230]  When he was early up, about how they ruined Jose Feliciano for a long time.
[37:47.610 --> 37:47.910]  Wow.
[37:48.130 --> 37:50.890]  And, by the way, it's a small world story.
[37:51.330 --> 37:52.230]  You may know this.
[37:52.290 --> 37:52.690]  I'm sure you do.
[37:52.690 --> 37:57.090]  But Bob's lovely wife, Lenny, who I know, worked for Marty Garvis.
[37:57.510 --> 37:58.330]  I did know that.
[37:58.330 --> 38:04.170]  In fact, I had many conversations with her during our DECSS case in 2000.
[38:04.350 --> 38:10.930]  She still is a very nice woman and sent greetings from Bob many times.
[38:10.970 --> 38:13.450]  Of course, I saw Bob at the station quite a few times as well.
[38:13.610 --> 38:16.210]  But, yeah, it is a small world.
[38:17.950 --> 38:20.910]  And, you know, another small world thing.
[38:21.350 --> 38:23.670]  I don't know if Frank Zappa's name came up.
[38:23.790 --> 38:24.790]  Come on, I'm not sure.
[38:25.470 --> 38:27.910]  Anyway, they mentioned a lot of Frank Zappa.
[38:27.970 --> 38:28.830]  He was a guest, too.
[38:28.950 --> 38:33.190]  And I went to high school with his percussionist, Ruth Ruthie, who was married to Ian Underwood.
[38:34.570 --> 38:36.570]  That's on one of his albums, a double album called World.
[38:36.670 --> 38:37.590]  We're only in it for the money.
[38:38.270 --> 38:39.490]  And they're all dressed in drag.
[38:41.990 --> 38:42.350]  Yeah.
[38:42.970 --> 38:44.850]  But let's see, what else did I not leave?
[38:46.470 --> 38:50.830]  Well, when is the first time that you actually went into the station?
[38:51.230 --> 38:52.090]  Can you remember that?
[38:52.410 --> 38:52.910]  First time, yeah.
[38:53.370 --> 38:57.770]  And I never made it to 39th, 30 East, 39th Street.
[38:58.410 --> 38:59.650]  By the way, William F.
[38:59.650 --> 39:01.470]  Buckley, he at that time had a program, too.
[39:01.670 --> 39:02.430]  Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[39:02.430 --> 39:02.950]  William F.
[39:03.190 --> 39:05.130]  Buckley had a radio show on WBAI?
[39:05.310 --> 39:05.750]  Yes.
[39:06.450 --> 39:06.750]  Wow.
[39:06.930 --> 39:09.030]  I don't remember hearing it, but Bob said so, yeah.
[39:09.330 --> 39:12.110]  And I take it he was conservative back then as well.
[39:12.310 --> 39:13.290]  You take it correctly.
[39:14.850 --> 39:24.110]  And so did, who was the one, positivism, what's her name, another conservative woman who had a long-running program on BAI.
[39:25.270 --> 39:26.470]  I'm blanking out now.
[39:26.650 --> 39:27.530]  I have stage fright.
[39:28.650 --> 39:29.950]  How could you have stage fright?
[39:29.950 --> 39:31.850]  You've been involved for so long with...
[39:31.850 --> 39:34.670]  Well, that's part of when I first met him.
[39:35.210 --> 39:42.450]  I had first met Bob probably in 60, must have been 66, 67, 68, somewhere in there.
[39:42.530 --> 39:42.750]  Okay.
[39:43.010 --> 39:48.610]  And I went up to, there was a Woodstock Saugerties Sound Out Festival, music on an open field.
[39:48.790 --> 39:53.310]  And in the actual Woodstock Saugerties town, not where, you know, the big one was held a year later.
[39:53.310 --> 39:54.870]  So in 68, I went there.
[39:54.990 --> 39:56.330]  It was called Pam's Farm.
[39:56.590 --> 39:58.230]  Pam Copeland had a farm up there.
[39:58.370 --> 40:01.190]  And for two or three days, he could sleep out on the ground.
[40:02.110 --> 40:03.330]  Buzzy Linhart was there.
[40:03.450 --> 40:04.530]  Tim Harden.
[40:05.590 --> 40:06.170]  Richie Haven.
[40:06.410 --> 40:07.890]  So it was a great, great time.
[40:07.990 --> 40:09.530]  It was a running, a regular thing.
[40:09.650 --> 40:12.930]  I went there the year before the big Woodstock, which I did not attend.
[40:13.390 --> 40:15.070]  And that's when I saw Bob.
[40:15.070 --> 40:16.790]  I really didn't talk to him much then.
[40:16.830 --> 40:17.330]  He was there.
[40:17.590 --> 40:30.090]  But the first time I actually, you know, encountered him or met him, maybe this week then, around the same time, but later, I was driving a cab from 70 to 74, even though it was already out of college.
[40:30.090 --> 40:31.850]  I had nothing, no prospect.
[40:32.150 --> 40:33.150]  So there I was.
[40:33.270 --> 40:34.530]  I used to drive around.
[40:35.070 --> 40:46.370]  When they moved to East 62nd Street, the church, I used to drive around recording stuff, because I had a little Ampex recorder built into my radio.
[40:46.590 --> 40:47.150]  It was great.
[40:47.390 --> 40:52.610]  So I heard Larry Sloman, who did a parody of Bob Dylan, knocking on BAI's door.
[40:53.690 --> 40:57.670]  And I played, I recorded that once, and then years later, he's back again as a guest.
[40:58.110 --> 41:03.070]  And he's kind of more reminiscing about Bob.
[41:03.070 --> 41:05.450]  Bob, oh, I wish I had that other one, you know, from then.
[41:05.650 --> 41:10.590]  So I parked my cab in front of my building, which was right near where I am now.
[41:11.010 --> 41:16.270]  And I found the thing on a cassette, rummaged through, played a few bars, hung up just to tantalize them.
[41:17.430 --> 41:19.890]  And then he called up, who was that masked man?
[41:20.150 --> 41:21.770]  So I came over with the tape.
[41:21.890 --> 41:28.330]  I was greeted warmly by Bob Ratso, and I think Wadey Grady was in the studio then, too.
[41:28.570 --> 41:31.490]  So I sat down, they made copies of it, and that was the beginning.
[41:31.870 --> 41:32.970]  I never left it.
[41:33.710 --> 41:40.070]  So basically, because you recorded something off the radio, that was your foot in the door to get involved in radio?
[41:40.410 --> 41:40.810]  Pretty much.
[41:40.810 --> 41:42.950]  I had no idea even then, though, that I'd be...
[41:42.950 --> 41:46.950]  Oh, I would consider myself a listener, as I still do from a lot of BAI.
[41:47.430 --> 41:53.510]  And I had no dreams or intentions to, you know, move in in any way, shape, or form.
[41:53.610 --> 41:54.850]  There was a staff there I thought.
[41:55.050 --> 41:56.650]  I was, you know, wholly unqualified.
[41:56.650 --> 42:00.610]  So I, you know, if I had to go on the air, I would have sounded like, uh...
[42:00.610 --> 42:01.790]  Humming, humming, humming, humming, you know.
[42:02.890 --> 42:05.070]  Trust me, we all feel that way at the beginning.
[42:05.210 --> 42:11.470]  I just found some early tapes of when I first got involved in radio, and I cannot believe they ever asked me to come back.
[42:12.090 --> 42:12.830]  Cannot believe it.
[42:12.870 --> 42:13.690]  It's what you had to say.
[42:13.930 --> 42:17.090]  And I'm going to make those public, too, so people can maybe get inspired.
[42:17.090 --> 42:18.650]  If he can do it, anyone can.
[42:20.710 --> 42:21.710]  Steve Post had it.
[42:21.870 --> 42:24.930]  He said some of the people there came from the Lompoc School of Broadcasting.
[42:25.890 --> 42:26.910]  I don't know what that is.
[42:27.030 --> 42:28.770]  That's a little pen where H.R.
[42:28.910 --> 42:29.530]  Haldeman's done something.
[42:29.770 --> 42:30.210]  Oh, okay.
[42:30.510 --> 42:31.650]  In California, the Lompoc.
[42:31.750 --> 42:32.830]  It sounded like a disease, I know.
[42:33.490 --> 42:33.850]  Wow.
[42:34.830 --> 42:46.550]  And so going ahead, so I was pretty much at his side for like 20 years or so from like, I don't know, and I was annotating reel-to-reel boxes as to who came by.
[42:47.090 --> 42:49.430]  Buzzy Linhart, Gary Knoll came by once.
[42:49.510 --> 42:50.370]  I didn't know at the time.
[42:50.730 --> 42:56.830]  Bob showed me a reel-to-reel many years later, and I had written his name, K-N-O-L-L, the way it sounds, Gary Knoll.
[42:56.970 --> 42:57.230]  Wow.
[42:57.410 --> 43:02.650]  Bob put him on because he was banned and fired from a commercial station, WMCA, I believe it was.
[43:02.950 --> 43:04.610]  Bob gave him a voice.
[43:05.610 --> 43:07.550]  And years later, you know, he had a program.
[43:07.730 --> 43:09.230]  He's one of the main draws.
[43:09.490 --> 43:09.770]  Mm-hmm.
[43:10.650 --> 43:12.330]  And Bob was banned and fired, too.
[43:12.730 --> 43:13.250]  That's right.
[43:13.290 --> 43:14.270]  It's all a big circle.
[43:14.770 --> 43:15.890]  Several times, yeah.
[43:16.810 --> 43:21.010]  It's kind of a badge of honor, a dubious badge of honor.
[43:21.590 --> 43:27.990]  So, in 86, they raised $30,000 on the last day of the marathon.
[43:28.910 --> 43:32.190]  And Bob Dylan was supposed to call in on the phone personally, and he did.
[43:32.490 --> 43:33.710]  I was supposed to watch out.
[43:33.730 --> 43:37.110]  He's going to give an alias to, like, Blind Boy Grunt or, you know, something.
[43:37.110 --> 43:42.510]  And so I took the call, put it in, Bob put it on the air, and then Dylan was a sport.
[43:42.550 --> 43:43.450]  He took phone calls.
[43:43.550 --> 43:46.190]  This went on for about 45 minutes on the last day of the marathon.
[43:46.370 --> 43:46.630]  Wow.
[43:46.630 --> 43:49.810]  And I'm including, there's one call you may have heard of him.
[43:50.250 --> 43:51.930]  He's the guy who goes, commie, nudie.
[43:53.590 --> 43:54.490]  Even he got on.
[43:55.170 --> 43:56.170]  Dylan was a good sport.
[43:56.550 --> 44:00.710]  And then, that was in 1986, Dylan's 45th birthday.
[44:01.650 --> 44:02.510]  So, I'm jumping ahead.
[44:02.730 --> 44:05.250]  I'm still there, but I was always sitting at his side.
[44:05.410 --> 44:08.630]  But I just didn't want, I wasn't, didn't consider, I was airworthy.
[44:09.550 --> 44:10.330]  Maybe I'm still not.
[44:10.390 --> 44:10.730]  I don't know.
[44:11.390 --> 44:13.090]  No, you absolutely are.
[44:13.350 --> 44:14.070]  You absolutely are.
[44:14.170 --> 44:17.670]  You should do a show of just reminiscing about these things every week, I think.
[44:17.730 --> 44:18.010]  I would love to.
[44:19.490 --> 44:25.010]  So, jumping ahead, though, Bob and Lenny have been living together for a while.
[44:25.050 --> 44:25.930]  He decided to get married.
[44:26.110 --> 44:29.410]  This was in, I don't know, it must have been 1993, I think it was.
[44:29.590 --> 44:36.890]  I had known him since 60, well, I mean, since 60, whatever I said, in the early 70s, driving a cab.
[44:37.470 --> 44:38.910]  So, I was there all the time.
[44:38.910 --> 44:40.770]  I knew it all in theory, what he was doing.
[44:41.270 --> 44:45.730]  I helped, sometimes I went on the air just briefly to say something, or correction, or wisecrack.
[44:46.610 --> 44:49.430]  And so, but he said, okay, Bill, I'm going away to get married.
[44:49.510 --> 44:50.390]  I'll be back in three weeks.
[44:50.670 --> 44:51.030]  Fine.
[44:52.070 --> 44:53.730]  And then I was, completely green.
[44:53.970 --> 44:54.230]  Uh-huh.
[44:54.330 --> 45:02.870]  You know, it was the old analog board, which I loved, you know, because it allowed 10 callers to get on the phone at one time, and each one had a potentiometer.
[45:03.030 --> 45:04.670]  You could see who was the cranky.
[45:05.410 --> 45:06.450]  I remember that.
[45:06.550 --> 45:07.410]  I remember that board.
[45:07.410 --> 45:08.470]  I love that board.
[45:08.470 --> 45:09.990]  That was at 35th Street, too, right?
[45:10.130 --> 45:11.350]  I remember the amber lights.
[45:11.610 --> 45:12.570]  Originally, it was there, yeah.
[45:12.730 --> 45:13.530]  That went down the side?
[45:14.310 --> 45:14.590]  Yep.
[45:14.790 --> 45:15.610]  I loved that board.
[45:15.750 --> 45:17.350]  They just destroyed it.
[45:17.670 --> 45:19.350]  Mike Edel, I think, built it at the time.
[45:19.510 --> 45:19.670]  Uh-huh.
[45:20.150 --> 45:22.330]  The best chief engineer they ever had, in my opinion.
[45:22.330 --> 45:35.650]  My very first show, I tried to get every single line connected, and we had an online or an on-air conference call as sort of a rebuttal to all the ones that were being advertised for lots of money.
[45:35.950 --> 45:38.270]  People could call and be AI and be in a conference for free.
[45:38.950 --> 45:39.190]  Right.
[45:39.330 --> 45:40.030]  It was great.
[45:40.450 --> 45:43.990]  And it was a delegate task, but usually it worked.
[45:44.150 --> 45:47.110]  And if it was any cranks, if it was really persistent, you could get rid of them.
[45:47.110 --> 45:51.830]  So there I was, all alone, for three weeks, having to come up with program material.
[45:52.250 --> 45:53.670]  And I was petrified.
[45:53.830 --> 45:59.190]  It was like, you know, the first hour was really, you know, it was a white-knuckle flight, you know, grasping and panicking and shaking.
[46:00.130 --> 46:05.730]  But actually, I took phone calls at some point in the second hour, and everybody seemed to behave themselves.
[46:05.890 --> 46:09.150]  I got almost ten calls on at once, the capacity.
[46:09.970 --> 46:11.970]  And I had maybe this beginner's luck.
[46:12.090 --> 46:12.630]  I don't know.
[46:13.070 --> 46:16.430]  But the first one went well, and I did three more of them until they came back.
[46:16.430 --> 46:19.430]  And I thanked him in honor, and I said, how could you do this to me?
[46:22.250 --> 46:24.410]  So we were lifelong friends ever since.
[46:24.510 --> 46:28.630]  He was my oldest, best friend I ever had, or ever will have him.
[46:28.790 --> 46:31.170]  I hope not, but I held him as my best friend.
[46:31.170 --> 46:34.070]  Well, our sincere condolences for the loss.
[46:34.910 --> 46:36.190]  It's one that we all feel.
[46:37.070 --> 46:38.090]  He was a giant.
[46:38.290 --> 46:41.210]  He personified what BAI was all about.
[46:41.410 --> 46:45.430]  And he influenced so many people, gave airtime to so many.
[46:45.430 --> 46:46.850]  He changed the world.
[46:47.090 --> 46:48.170]  He absolutely changed the world.
[46:48.310 --> 46:49.530]  He absolutely did, yes.
[46:50.010 --> 46:50.150]  Yes.
[46:50.710 --> 46:55.730]  I've said, I've blown my piece, I guess.
[46:55.970 --> 47:00.910]  But I'll be glad to do anything more, either for the station or in his honor.
[47:01.070 --> 47:01.790]  And I hope to do that.
[47:01.910 --> 47:03.050]  Please stay in touch.
[47:03.070 --> 47:13.950]  And if you have material, by all means, preserve that material, share that material, digitize, whatever, because this is history, it's valuable, it's something that we all can learn from.
[47:14.190 --> 47:14.670]  Yes, it is.
[47:14.750 --> 47:16.170]  I really do miss this.
[47:16.250 --> 47:18.630]  And I hope to continue this in his honor.
[47:18.930 --> 47:19.550]  Thank you.
[47:19.670 --> 47:20.350]  Thank you for being there.
[47:20.610 --> 47:20.970]  Thank you.
[47:21.310 --> 47:21.650]  Okay.
[47:21.810 --> 47:22.350]  Have a good night.
[47:22.790 --> 47:23.050]  You too.
[47:23.190 --> 47:23.330]  Bye.
[47:24.370 --> 47:25.070]  Bill Prump.
[47:25.310 --> 47:25.750]  Wow.
[47:27.290 --> 47:28.170]  That's incredible.
[47:28.410 --> 47:29.210]  That really is incredible.
[47:30.150 --> 47:38.270]  Uh, it makes you realize just, um, how big a deal this is, you know, how, how big a deal Bob Fass was.
[47:39.370 --> 48:01.610]  And, uh, it's, um, it's strange because, you know, we make such a fuss over the superstars without realizing that they all came from someplace and that the real stars are the ones that aren't in the limelight, the ones that are just there, you know, and that you can count on that will open the door for you and,
[48:01.610 --> 48:07.810]  and that have this, this, this quiet confidence in themselves and what they do.
[48:08.550 --> 48:15.990]  And there's so many of us out there that I think fit that definition that, uh, I'm honored to, uh, to know.
[48:20.270 --> 48:21.330]  So are we taking another phone call?
[48:21.450 --> 48:22.310]  I think we have another phone call.
[48:22.430 --> 48:22.590]  Okay.
[48:22.770 --> 48:24.310]  Let's, um, go ahead.
[48:24.310 --> 48:24.870]  Good evening.
[48:25.110 --> 48:26.270]  You're on off the hook over time.
[48:26.370 --> 48:26.550]  Go ahead.
[48:27.570 --> 48:27.850]  Hi.
[48:28.130 --> 48:32.410]  I just wanted to ask Bill Propp to phone me.
[48:32.730 --> 48:33.110]  Okay.
[48:33.190 --> 48:34.230]  I can't find his phone number.
[48:34.470 --> 48:37.650]  I wanted to try to get in touch with him.
[48:37.770 --> 48:44.390]  Well, I'm sure he's, he'll hear this and he's gotten the message and, um, I, maybe your phone will ring.
[48:44.630 --> 48:44.850]  Thanks.
[48:45.190 --> 48:46.530]  Uh, thanks for the second call.
[48:47.890 --> 48:53.130]  Please, uh, people out there, um, uh, we're opening up for first time callers or people I haven't called today.
[48:54.030 --> 48:55.690]  802-321-4225.
[48:56.450 --> 49:01.690]  Folks, what'd you think of, uh, Bill's reminiscing there that I could talk to him all night, I think.
[49:02.610 --> 49:12.990]  Yeah, I thought it was absolutely fantastic, fascinating to hear and hearing about the technology that was used way back then too is really fascinating.
[49:13.370 --> 49:18.370]  I would love to hear the off the hook show where you had the impromptu conference call.
[49:18.570 --> 49:21.570]  Well, just go to the website, 2600.com slash off the hook.
[49:21.570 --> 49:23.390]  And I think it's the first one in 1988.
[49:24.150 --> 49:25.090]  Uh, you're kidding.
[49:25.350 --> 49:26.410]  Was it the first one?
[49:26.450 --> 49:27.330]  It was the first one.
[49:27.430 --> 49:27.530]  Yeah.
[49:27.730 --> 49:30.510]  Because, you know, I, I was, I was new.
[49:30.830 --> 49:33.650]  I was trying to make an impression and, uh, do something different.
[49:33.910 --> 49:45.610]  And, uh, well, the first time I was supposed to be on the afternoon and it was literally that hour that there was a fire in the transmitter room of the empire state building and all the stations in New York city were knocked off the air.
[49:45.750 --> 49:52.790]  And I realized, you know, I had my show canceled my, my debut show, but I realized all the stations, they were, you know, playing music.
[49:52.790 --> 49:55.870]  I was the only person that really was affected by that.
[49:56.010 --> 50:01.770]  Everybody else just went in the next day and did their usual show, but I was the only person that had a damn radio show that had it canceled.
[50:01.790 --> 50:04.310]  And I wasn't able to go on again for months.
[50:04.650 --> 50:07.990]  Uh, but when I did go on, it was for an extended period of time and it was at night.
[50:07.990 --> 50:09.030]  So I was able to do more.
[50:09.190 --> 50:17.190]  So maybe that fire was a good thing in, in, in the longterm, but it's just crazy how radio history unfolds.
[50:19.110 --> 50:20.990]  Yeah, it, it, it really is.
[50:21.090 --> 50:22.010]  I mean, I think it's fascinating.
[50:22.170 --> 50:36.330]  I mean, it's, I feel like this, the show started out at seven o'clock is potentially as one long dirge for Dan Kaminsky and Bob fast, but all of these anecdotes I think are, are giving me a lot of heart and I hope uplifting the listeners as well.
[50:36.450 --> 50:37.290]  Well, it's interesting too.
[50:37.410 --> 50:47.070]  It's a, there's a parallel that I've noticed when, when Bill was speaking just now, uh, of, um, somebody doing something because they, they're interested in doing it because they love doing it.
[50:47.290 --> 50:50.250]  What Bob did with radio turned into something huge.
[50:50.450 --> 50:53.830]  What Dan did with internet security turned into something huge.
[50:54.050 --> 51:00.810]  They both developed these tremendous followings and neither one of them, um, uh, was attracted by the limelight.
[51:00.990 --> 51:02.330]  They, they didn't seek it out.
[51:02.330 --> 51:09.750]  And there was so much better for that, you know, for just being themselves and for being valued as that they didn't get rich.
[51:10.030 --> 51:20.030]  They, they, they weren't, uh, uh, superstars, uh, at least not in the, um, in, in the Hollywood sense, but in, in, in how we view them in our minds.
[51:20.450 --> 51:20.930]  Yeah.
[51:21.190 --> 51:25.710]  They, they mattered so much and, um, we missed them so much already.
[51:27.670 --> 51:39.710]  I always hear this, um, sense, certain gravity too, of these people, their charisma, what it attracts and that passion for the medium they're working in.
[51:40.290 --> 51:40.710]  Mm-hmm.
[51:41.170 --> 51:42.450]  Yeah, absolutely.
[51:43.390 --> 51:47.010]  Hey, I've got that, um, that other piece from Dan I like to play.
[51:47.390 --> 51:52.830]  Um, basically this, um, this is an excerpt of off the hook.
[51:52.830 --> 52:03.050]  I, I know he was on off the hook a few times, he was on, I think once with Tiffany Redd, which is an interesting show, but this was when a bunch of us were over in Berlin at the annual chaos communication Congress.
[52:04.430 --> 52:13.490]  And, um, he was one of the people who, uh, who stopped by and I think he just, um, gives his impressions of the conference of, uh, Berlin.
[52:14.090 --> 52:15.590]  Let's, let's listen for a moment.
[52:17.430 --> 52:24.130]  Speaking of hope, one of, um, the, um, the, um, the next hope, you know, speakers, Dan Kaminsky is here with us.
[52:24.310 --> 52:27.230]  And, uh, Dan, you've been, uh, you've been over here before, have you not?
[52:27.490 --> 52:28.170]  I have been.
[52:28.330 --> 52:30.970]  I've been, uh, here every year since about 2004.
[52:31.450 --> 52:35.710]  There's something to be said about a city where there's a quarter million people on the street for New Year's.
[52:35.870 --> 52:38.030]  It's, uh, like nowhere else I've ever been.
[52:38.690 --> 52:45.230]  Yeah, you know, New Year's is great in Berlin because, uh, everybody, everybody is shooting fireworks off.
[52:45.470 --> 52:46.610]  Uh, it's not professional.
[52:46.770 --> 52:47.750]  It's just all the people.
[52:47.750 --> 52:49.190]  Well, let me tell you, it's not professional.
[52:50.470 --> 52:54.170]  I mean, infants, infants and dogs, everybody gets involved.
[52:54.690 --> 52:54.850]  Yeah.
[52:55.410 --> 53:00.810]  It's, uh, it's something else, but it's a real festive occasion and it's perfectly suited for the end of CCC.
[53:01.270 --> 53:02.770]  These aren't Roman candle fireworks.
[53:02.930 --> 53:03.050]  No.
[53:03.290 --> 53:03.570]  No.
[53:03.950 --> 53:04.870]  These are real rockets.
[53:04.950 --> 53:05.730]  These are real rockets.
[53:05.990 --> 53:06.670]  No, no, no.
[53:07.130 --> 53:22.150]  In fact, one of the, uh, one of the big hacker spaces of the world, actually, is a place called C-Base, um, their entire place is deemed like a crashed spaceship and every year for New Year's they, they let off, I don't know, hundreds and hundreds of euros of,
[53:22.210 --> 53:24.490]  uh, serious munition grade fireworks.
[53:24.770 --> 53:26.630]  It's right by the, uh, the water.
[53:26.890 --> 53:31.210]  So you look up and you see fire, you look down, you see fire, you know, there's kind of a theme.
[53:31.350 --> 53:31.970]  It's called fire.
[53:32.910 --> 53:39.070]  And pretty much every block that you stand on, uh, there are people just lighting things and shooting things from one building to another.
[53:39.070 --> 53:49.350]  So it's, it's, uh, quite a sight to behold, but, uh, Dan, uh, speaking to the conference itself, where there hasn't been so much in the way of, uh, fireworks and, and, uh, things being shot at this point.
[53:49.830 --> 53:50.790]  Uh, the night is young.
[53:50.910 --> 53:51.490]  The night is young.
[53:51.790 --> 53:52.110]  That's true.
[53:52.410 --> 53:54.450]  We're in day three, actually, of the four-day conference.
[53:54.590 --> 53:55.430]  Tomorrow is the last day.
[53:55.530 --> 53:58.290]  But are there any, any highlights that, that you'd like to focus on?
[53:58.710 --> 54:01.270]  Well, you know, CCC is really about the people.
[54:01.550 --> 54:09.550]  It's really about a collection of very smart people who are willing to just sit back, kick back, and talk about interesting things.
[54:09.810 --> 54:14.590]  I mean, you know, a common thing that's spoken about about conferences is the hallway track.
[54:14.790 --> 54:16.570]  Who are you actually going to bump into?
[54:17.270 --> 54:22.090]  Um, one guy who has been doing some incredible work is, goes by the name of Matt Seuss.
[54:22.270 --> 54:24.150]  I hope I'm not mispronouncing his name.
[54:24.350 --> 54:27.350]  He's been working on something called Crypto Mini Sat.
[54:27.690 --> 54:33.930]  And this is one of the most obscure, yet ridiculously useful things in all of security right now.
[54:33.930 --> 54:42.410]  You have these algorithms that are breaking, theoretically, impossible-to-crack problems, and they're breaking them in seconds.
[54:42.470 --> 54:45.010]  It's become a revolution in mathematics.
[54:45.630 --> 54:52.810]  And what the thing is, is you can convert all these other problems into this domain, and then throw them at these standardized tools.
[54:53.290 --> 54:57.770]  I walk into, saw three earlier today, you know, the third room, and there's Matt.
[54:58.050 --> 55:00.110]  I've been exchanging emails with him for months.
[55:00.110 --> 55:04.530]  And he's just sitting up there talking, talking about his cool code, and, you know, get to bump into him later.
[55:04.730 --> 55:06.570]  And that's really what CCC's about.
[55:06.790 --> 55:10.850]  All sorts of really interesting people, working on cool stuff, and it's no big deal.
[55:10.950 --> 55:14.050]  Walk up, have a conversation, and, you know, change the world.
[55:17.050 --> 55:19.210]  Well, Dan, he did change the world.
[55:21.550 --> 55:27.170]  That was from December 29th, 2010, from Berlin, at the Chaos Communication Congress.
[55:27.910 --> 55:36.650]  Thanks, as we remember Dan Kaminsky, we remember Bob Fass, and I think we're pretty much finished for the night.
[55:36.810 --> 55:38.670]  Folks, any final words?
[55:40.230 --> 55:45.630]  I think that is a perfect tone, and the perfect words on which to end.
[55:48.270 --> 55:48.830]  All right.
[55:49.090 --> 55:52.290]  Well, everyone's nodding their heads, so I guess that's where we're going to leave it.
[55:53.070 --> 55:54.270]  Thanks, everybody, for listening.
[55:54.470 --> 55:55.270]  Thanks for the calls.
[55:55.810 --> 55:59.530]  Please continue to write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[55:59.970 --> 56:02.270]  And you can tweet at us, Hacker Radio Show.
[56:03.370 --> 56:06.530]  And we will be back next week, 7 p.m.
[56:06.550 --> 56:08.290]  on WBAI, 8 p.m.
[56:08.410 --> 56:08.850]  on YouTube.
[56:10.290 --> 56:12.730]  For Off the Hook and Off the Hook Overtime, this is Emanuel.
[56:13.570 --> 56:14.270]  Have a good night.
[56:14.270 --> 56:14.370]  Have a good night.