[00:00.000 --> 00:05.540]  So, it's 995-995-99.
[00:06.100 --> 00:12.820]  Thanks for listening, and we hope you join us at the LSB meeting, May 12th, at 7 p.m.
[00:14.480 --> 00:24.720]  The previous program was Economic Update with Richard Wolff, heard Wednesdays after the WBAI Evening News at 6.30 p.m.
[00:25.280 --> 00:26.380]  It is now 7 p.m.
[00:26.380 --> 00:28.340]  Stay tuned for Off the Hook, coming up.
[00:32.220 --> 00:35.340]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:35.540 --> 00:38.680]  It's 7 o'clock time, once again, for Off the Hook.
[02:04.640 --> 02:06.600]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:06.740 --> 02:08.220]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:08.220 --> 02:12.840]  Emanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:13.140 --> 02:13.800]  Obviously.
[02:14.240 --> 02:14.780]  Rob T.
[02:14.880 --> 02:15.240]  Firefly.
[02:15.800 --> 02:16.840]  Good evening.
[02:17.100 --> 02:17.360]  Gila.
[02:17.920 --> 02:18.520]  Hello.
[02:18.900 --> 02:19.580]  And Alex.
[02:20.500 --> 02:21.240]  Hello, hello.
[02:22.140 --> 02:28.680]  You know, it's getting closer to the point where we're going back in the studio as New York City begins to reopen.
[02:28.680 --> 02:39.340]  And, I don't know, it's kind of daunting to think about this, that these days of remote broadcasting might be drawing to an end soon.
[02:41.600 --> 02:43.060]  It does feel pretty heavy.
[02:43.280 --> 02:45.360]  I can't remember the last time I've been in Brooklyn, actually.
[02:45.540 --> 02:47.900]  I think it was for the last show we did in the studio.
[02:48.160 --> 02:48.280]  Yeah.
[02:49.280 --> 02:54.100]  And considering you're in Queens, that's a statement, because it's not far away.
[02:54.200 --> 02:54.820]  It's not far away.
[02:55.600 --> 02:56.320]  It'll be weird.
[02:56.440 --> 02:59.560]  It'll be weird to start seeing things again, start seeing people again.
[03:00.400 --> 03:05.780]  And, you know, I think we should have eased into it, you know, not try to bite off too much at once.
[03:07.000 --> 03:08.420]  It'll be good to see everybody again, though.
[03:08.520 --> 03:12.440]  And hopefully, hopefully we're all getting the vaccine if we have not gotten it already.
[03:12.840 --> 03:14.820]  Please, people, continue to do this.
[03:14.940 --> 03:15.500]  That is key.
[03:15.720 --> 03:17.780]  That is key in getting back to normal.
[03:17.780 --> 03:23.400]  The only reason we're at this stage now is because so many of you went out and got the vaccine.
[03:27.580 --> 03:29.580]  Yeah, I completely agree.
[03:29.820 --> 03:36.380]  I think, you know, but I'm also on the fence about going back to the studio, too.
[03:36.440 --> 03:45.820]  I started to really enjoy having these remote sessions and being able to do this from Pennsylvania, you know, with the fire going in the background.
[03:46.160 --> 03:49.500]  You know, being back in Brooklyn will be great.
[03:49.500 --> 03:52.200]  I'm just glad we're not going back to that old studio.
[03:52.620 --> 03:53.640]  I mean, I think...
[03:53.640 --> 03:58.420]  How many shows did we actually do in the new studio before this global health crisis?
[03:58.560 --> 03:59.720]  Which old studio?
[03:59.720 --> 04:01.120]  We've got so many old studios.
[04:01.220 --> 04:01.780]  Which one do you mean?
[04:02.120 --> 04:10.520]  I'm talking about the one where you could hear people in the hallway while we were on the air, and the ceiling didn't even rise to the ceiling.
[04:10.700 --> 04:11.260]  Oh, I like that.
[04:11.280 --> 04:12.080]  I like that studio.
[04:12.460 --> 04:17.760]  Yeah, you always knew what was going on, both in the station and out in the street.
[04:17.920 --> 04:21.620]  Every time there was a fire engine that went by or an airplane that went over, we'd hear it.
[04:21.680 --> 04:22.440]  Our listeners would hear it.
[04:22.620 --> 04:23.600]  It's just kind of...
[04:23.600 --> 04:24.240]  We were plugged in.
[04:24.240 --> 04:29.940]  Yeah, you felt connected to the community on several different levels.
[04:30.140 --> 04:40.280]  But how many shows did we do in the new studio that had the right baffling, that had the soundproof windows, and didn't have the background of fire engines?
[04:40.400 --> 04:40.620]  One.
[04:40.720 --> 04:41.660]  We did one show.
[04:41.840 --> 04:43.480]  We did one show that went well.
[04:44.140 --> 04:44.600]  Was it one?
[04:44.780 --> 04:44.960]  One.
[04:45.120 --> 04:45.660]  It was one.
[04:45.840 --> 04:46.780]  Oh, my God.
[04:46.960 --> 04:47.180]  Wow.
[04:54.240 --> 04:57.640]  No, we only did a couple of shows in the new studio, if I recall.
[04:58.460 --> 04:59.120]  A lot.
[04:59.240 --> 05:00.480]  A couple of months of shows.
[05:00.800 --> 05:01.040]  Yeah.
[05:01.700 --> 05:05.120]  So we'll be disagreeing on all sorts of things, I guess, once we meet in person.
[05:05.320 --> 05:09.740]  But we can disagree remotely tonight, and I think we're going to be doing a bit of that.
[05:09.960 --> 05:14.820]  We're going to be talking about the whole Facebook decision, which I can't believe I have to say it like that.
[05:14.920 --> 05:17.320]  But, yeah, Facebook made a decision today.
[05:17.320 --> 05:19.700]  We're going to discuss and analyze that.
[05:20.460 --> 05:22.060]  There are a bunch of other things.
[05:22.140 --> 05:24.040]  I'd like to start with some good news, though, if that's possible.
[05:24.040 --> 05:25.720]  I'm on sort of a good news kick this week.
[05:27.000 --> 05:43.280]  It turns out the United States will be supporting a proposal to waive intellectual property protections for the COVID-19 vaccines, joining an effort to increase global supply and access to the life-saving shots as the gap between rich and poor nations widens,
[05:43.280 --> 05:44.360]  if you can believe that.
[05:45.640 --> 05:46.280]  U.S.
[05:46.340 --> 05:50.480]  Trade Representative Catherine Tai said, We are for the waiver at the WTO.
[05:50.480 --> 05:53.720]  We are for what the proponents of the waiver are trying to accomplish.
[05:54.040 --> 05:57.860]  which is better access, more manufacturing capability, more shots in arms.
[05:57.860 --> 05:59.240]  It seems like common sense.
[05:59.420 --> 06:11.420]  But believe it or not, well, actually, you probably will believe it, the stock of Pfizer and all the pharmaceutical companies plunged today as soon as that news came out.
[06:11.420 --> 06:20.020]  And it just makes you realize, wow, stopping a global pandemic really goes against the interests of these pharmaceutical companies, doesn't it?
[06:21.580 --> 06:25.400]  Well, I think, you know, to an extent, right?
[06:25.500 --> 06:28.620]  I mean, it's about expectations of profit, right?
[06:28.980 --> 06:40.160]  And not being able to profit as substantially from the intellectual property that they develop, certainly will make a dent, I think, temporarily in the share price.
[06:40.160 --> 06:41.960]  So I would expect it to bounce back up.
[06:42.180 --> 06:42.640]  Yeah, it should.
[06:42.800 --> 06:43.000]  It should.
[06:43.080 --> 06:51.260]  But that reaction, I cannot imagine anyone not being behind getting the vaccine out to as many people as humanly possible.
[06:51.680 --> 06:54.440]  That is the key because we all benefit from that.
[06:54.560 --> 06:56.080]  And that is a positive step.
[06:56.660 --> 07:12.320]  This is one of the areas that I don't think should lead as far as a pandemic is concerned in global and national public health interests of shareholders really do not lie with the vast majority of people out there.
[07:12.480 --> 07:19.540]  And their decision-making processes aren't, I think, very well suited to what benefits the most of us.
[07:20.240 --> 07:21.440]  Well, the U.S.
[07:21.520 --> 07:25.220]  is not the only country that until now has withheld support for the waiver.
[07:25.220 --> 07:31.060]  However, the European Union, U.K., Japan, Switzerland, Brazil, and Norway also have resisted the push.
[07:31.240 --> 07:33.480]  But supporters of the waiver argue that U.S.
[07:33.800 --> 07:36.300]  leadership on the issue could help sway other holdouts.
[07:36.560 --> 07:40.160]  And certainly public pressure can also contribute to that.
[07:40.760 --> 07:52.600]  So important that this not be held up by ridiculous IP protections in this really global crisis that we are still facing.
[07:54.000 --> 08:09.760]  Yeah, it really illustrates how broken late-stage capitalism is, that there are people in the world who were thinking, gee, I sure hope that the entire world doesn't get access free and clear to the things that will save us from this pandemic, because it means my shareholder value will go down a little.
[08:09.980 --> 08:11.200]  But that's what it is.
[08:11.200 --> 08:23.300]  But even looking at it from a completely practical capitalist perspective, all of these companies still have the marketing value, the sheer bragging rights of being able to say, hey, remember when we saved everyone from that pandemic?
[08:23.400 --> 08:27.760]  The greatest medical threat to face the world at large in recent memory?
[08:27.800 --> 08:28.640]  Remember when we did that?
[08:28.780 --> 08:33.540]  They could put that in all their TV commercials from now until doomsday and be fine.
[08:33.700 --> 08:35.160]  So I'm sure they'll be all right.
[08:35.160 --> 08:41.400]  There's always a way you can spin the story to make your shareholders happy.
[08:42.400 --> 08:44.180]  But that's not the issue.
[08:44.280 --> 08:49.100]  The issue is getting the vaccine out, and it's super important that this continue.
[08:50.200 --> 08:54.500]  Okay, so that might be a big step forward.
[08:55.040 --> 08:56.280]  Let's hope it is.
[08:58.420 --> 08:59.420]  Okay, Facebook.
[08:59.700 --> 09:14.640]  They had an oversight board, very mysterious, I think 20-member oversight board, that today was supposed to make a decision on whether they would keep Donald Trump banned.
[09:14.660 --> 09:16.280]  This is a stupid story.
[09:16.280 --> 09:16.920]  It really is.
[09:16.980 --> 09:19.680]  Because why do we care so much about this?
[09:19.880 --> 09:21.320]  But that's what it's turned into.
[09:21.360 --> 09:22.140]  That's what it's become.
[09:22.140 --> 09:29.740]  The fact that Facebook is this all-seeing entity now that dictates who speaks and who doesn't speak.
[09:30.440 --> 09:48.160]  Well, anyway, their oversight board, which acts as a quasi-cord over the company's content decisions, ruled that the social network was right to bar Mr. Trump after the insurrection in Washington in January, saying he created an environment where a serious risk of violence was possible.
[09:48.160 --> 09:52.100]  The panel said that ongoing risk justified the move.
[09:52.380 --> 09:56.380]  And in my opinion, they have every right to ban whoever they want.
[09:56.600 --> 09:59.060]  You can disagree, but this is their decision.
[09:59.060 --> 10:01.880]  And I think it was the right decision.
[10:02.020 --> 10:07.380]  But the board also kicked the case back to Facebook and its top executives.
[10:07.540 --> 10:19.900]  It said that an indefinite suspension was not appropriate because it was not a penalty defined in Facebook's policies and that the company should apply a standard punishment, such as a time-bound suspension or a permanent ban.
[10:20.140 --> 10:26.600]  The board gave Facebook six months to make a final decision on Mr. Trump's account status.
[10:27.040 --> 10:27.560]  Okay.
[10:27.860 --> 10:29.660]  Granted, this is a stupid story.
[10:30.060 --> 10:32.540]  Who cares about Trump's Facebook status?
[10:32.860 --> 10:38.780]  But the fact of the matter is millions and millions of people are directly affected by this.
[10:38.780 --> 10:41.040]  Their actions are dictated by this.
[10:41.400 --> 10:50.420]  And we could well be talking about insurrections being planned as a result of him speaking on these forums that reach so many people.
[10:50.960 --> 10:52.260]  We're talking about power here.
[10:52.540 --> 10:55.500]  Too much power should not be in the hands of one company, absolutely.
[10:55.740 --> 10:57.200]  But that's where it is right now.
[10:57.500 --> 10:59.540]  And what do you guys think?
[10:59.640 --> 11:00.380]  Permanent suspension?
[11:00.380 --> 11:01.600]  Should it be reinstated?
[11:02.040 --> 11:03.620]  Any strong thoughts?
[11:05.220 --> 11:23.040]  Look, from my perspective, this is a fascinating legal evolution here, where what we essentially have is a corporate tribunal, a corporate judiciary making decisions that can bind a private company.
[11:23.280 --> 11:33.820]  And the decisions of essentially Facebook Supreme Court, its oversight board, which is comprised of journalists, of lawyers, of activists, it's an interesting cross-section.
[11:34.040 --> 11:38.480]  But remember, they're still... they're not public employees.
[11:38.480 --> 11:42.420]  These are people that are dealing specifically with Facebook for Facebook.
[11:42.680 --> 11:50.220]  But those decisions are generally to hold Facebook accountable to its own policies.
[11:50.520 --> 11:55.020]  So from that perspective, this decision should not have surprised anybody.
[11:55.020 --> 12:07.140]  The law that they are applying are Facebook's own rules and regulations of policies that they set forth for themselves and their users with respect to a very narrow issues, namely content moderation.
[12:07.500 --> 12:13.820]  So by Facebook banning Trump indefinitely, they didn't hold true to their policies.
[12:14.000 --> 12:15.340]  They're kicking it back to Facebook.
[12:15.540 --> 12:22.800]  And I think now this punt will give Facebook the opportunity to assess down the road.
[12:22.800 --> 12:24.860]  I wouldn't expect them to make a snap decision on this.
[12:24.980 --> 12:40.440]  I think they would probably take their time, make a decision, probably four or five, possibly six months down the road, to determine what the political climate is like, what Donald Trump is like, and whether it would make sense to have that type of content back on their platform.
[12:40.440 --> 12:47.220]  Because if having that type of content back on their platform will support the bottom line, then they will probably make that decision.
[12:47.340 --> 12:51.860]  Again, here we are talking about shareholders in the interest, the best interest of their shareholders.
[12:52.420 --> 13:04.360]  Yet, on the other hand, one other contrary point, a quick one I want to make is, this is also interesting from a transparency perspective, because these are judicially reasoned opinions.
[13:04.600 --> 13:08.220]  They set out the facts, albeit these facts are five months old now.
[13:08.940 --> 13:10.760]  Actually, I guess we're about four months old now.
[13:11.720 --> 13:13.920]  And it seems like it's kind of stale.
[13:13.920 --> 13:29.960]  But at least we have something tangible that we can hold in our hands and physically read that sets out the reasoning of a private company like Facebook that wields an enormous amount of power over billions of users worldwide.
[13:30.240 --> 13:38.840]  And that, I think, is the real issue, that enormous amount of power over billions of users, not one idiot who doesn't know how to behave himself in public.
[13:40.080 --> 13:48.300]  And as far as how he is treated, he should be treated as others would be treated if they do the same thing, those special privileges.
[13:48.320 --> 13:52.560]  And I think that's what he has received over the past few years.
[13:52.680 --> 14:01.620]  My question is, why didn't Facebook act sooner based on their own rules and regulations and take disciplinary action for all the things he was doing there?
[14:01.780 --> 14:02.300]  Gila, go ahead.
[14:02.300 --> 14:07.260]  Something actually very interesting happened today with respect to all of this.
[14:07.320 --> 14:13.480]  And it's not a Facebook issue, but what it is, someone attempted, and I don't know if it was legit.
[14:13.480 --> 14:25.540]  I don't know if it was real, but someone apparently set up a Twitter account for Donald Trump that was echoing the blog posts on his website.
[14:25.540 --> 14:29.140]  It was feeding that material directly to Twitter.
[14:29.960 --> 14:32.740]  It took four months for someone to figure out how to do that?
[14:33.400 --> 14:35.580]  The blog is new, as far as I can tell.
[14:35.660 --> 14:38.500]  Right, but his mouth isn't, and he's constantly saying something.
[14:38.740 --> 14:44.700]  And I would imagine that somebody would set something up quickly to just forward everything he says, every utterance.
[14:44.820 --> 14:46.600]  But it went up yesterday or today.
[14:46.860 --> 14:51.020]  And as of five minutes ago, the account's been suspended.
[14:51.020 --> 14:56.080]  So I think the question of what, you know, not getting special treatment.
[14:56.080 --> 15:11.220]  If you had an account that was suspended for hate speech, provocation, insurrection, incitement, whatever, and then you attempt to create a new account, if you were any random person off the street and attempted to backdoor it in the same way, you'd get kicked off the site.
[15:11.220 --> 15:12.780]  So this got shut down.
[15:13.100 --> 15:15.620]  And I would hope that that sort of thing could be equally applied.
[15:15.860 --> 15:19.320]  Well, my question on this, I'm kind of interested in what you're describing here.
[15:19.480 --> 15:24.220]  Is someone simply forwarding the words that he is saying on his website?
[15:24.540 --> 15:35.000]  And is that enough to get you kicked off of Twitter if you simply forward what he says, assuming that speech itself isn't violating any terms of service?
[15:35.640 --> 15:37.180]  Is that enough to get you kicked off?
[15:37.580 --> 15:38.460]  It's an excellent question.
[15:38.600 --> 15:47.440]  I mean, there were people who, when he still had an active Twitter account, were creating accounts that just retweeted what he tweeted to see how long it would take them to get kicked off.
[15:47.740 --> 15:49.820]  People are getting suspended within 12 hours.
[15:50.060 --> 15:52.620]  The thing is, they don't have the followers.
[15:52.620 --> 16:04.100]  If one of us went on and just started regurgitating what he says, how is anyone going to think that that's the same thing as him controlling an account?
[16:04.320 --> 16:06.520]  The same amount of people won't be able to see it.
[16:07.060 --> 16:11.260]  It just, it seems like this is something that Twitter might want to rethink.
[16:12.400 --> 16:12.840]  Absolutely.
[16:12.960 --> 16:17.480]  I mean, this seemed to be set up very, like the name of the account was The Desk of Donald J.
[16:17.620 --> 16:19.960]  Trump, and it was set up to look very official.
[16:20.180 --> 16:20.400]  Okay.
[16:20.400 --> 16:27.840]  So, even if it wasn't, you know, if it wasn't, it's a great feat of social engineering, but it looks official.
[16:27.880 --> 16:28.580]  Well, that's why.
[16:28.680 --> 16:37.380]  Okay, The Desk of Donald, if that's what it's called, then I can certainly see that getting attention and potentially getting a lot of followers because people would believe it.
[16:37.480 --> 16:42.340]  But it was just, you know, John Smith 237 saying the same things off the website.
[16:42.340 --> 16:48.520]  I would hope that would not be enough to get that user kicked off just for saying those words that came from that person.
[16:49.020 --> 16:59.560]  No, but this to be set up is, this is what Donald Trump is saying, and we're going to, it's, the description, I'm sorry, is, posts copied from Save America on behalf of the 45th POTUS.
[16:59.980 --> 17:06.400]  Originally composed via DonaldJTrump.com slash desk, this account distributes the forum onto Twitter.
[17:07.780 --> 17:11.180]  Yeah, that's, that's probably enough because that's kind of stating intent.
[17:11.600 --> 17:13.120]  Yeah, I would think so.
[17:14.100 --> 17:17.000]  Alex, what do you think of this, this oversight board of Facebook?
[17:17.340 --> 17:18.820]  It's, it's a mystery, right?
[17:18.920 --> 17:20.520]  It's, nobody knows who's on it.
[17:21.600 --> 17:27.600]  You know, I, I think, no, I, I think people have, have come out and said that they're, they're on it and whatnot.
[17:27.600 --> 17:31.960]  But I think, look, it's, it's an interesting innovation here.
[17:33.620 --> 17:41.700]  But their motivations, I think, have to be questioned in a sense, you know, I'd like to know what their compensation is.
[17:41.800 --> 17:47.740]  I'd like to know, you know, how much collective input and how these deliberations actually happen.
[17:47.740 --> 18:05.480]  And also, the remit of the Facebook oversight board generally seems to be focused on content itself and, and about making considered decisions about difficult issues.
[18:05.480 --> 18:16.220]  For instance, like about QAnon conspiracy theories, you know, being allowed to, to propagate on the platform, vaccine related misinformation, political figures like Donald Trump.
[18:16.220 --> 18:23.520]  And what the Facebook oversight board decides may have a spillover effect on other platforms as well.
[18:23.720 --> 18:25.700]  It may have some kind of precedent setting effect.
[18:25.820 --> 18:36.460]  And I think Facebook is hoping for this and being the first of these social media platforms to create essentially what is a corporate tribunal acting as a Supreme Court.
[18:36.640 --> 18:40.000]  They can actually overrule decisions of Mark Zuckerberg.
[18:40.140 --> 18:44.980]  Mark Zuckerberg could say, I think Trump should be reinstated right now.
[18:44.980 --> 18:49.380]  And the Facebook oversight board could actually overrule that particular decision.
[18:49.600 --> 18:54.060]  So from a corporate governance perspective, it's quite an interesting innovation.
[18:54.300 --> 19:02.920]  I'm not entirely sure we're going to see this replicated on other platforms because it's also very tricky to deal with.
[19:03.060 --> 19:04.400]  They're going to have their own case law.
[19:04.600 --> 19:06.620]  They're going to have public decisions.
[19:06.620 --> 19:10.640]  And a lot of this transparency is not necessarily in the best interest of these platforms.
[19:10.820 --> 19:21.800]  So on one hand, I do think we have to hand it to Facebook for making an effort at transparency and putting this entire thing together in somewhat short form.
[19:22.080 --> 19:22.860]  Go ahead, Kyle.
[19:22.860 --> 19:35.380]  I think it really gives a huge amount of illusion to the addressing or to the oversight and transparency is lost, I think, in the process.
[19:35.380 --> 19:39.960]  And we're transferring the power to this group.
[19:40.120 --> 19:56.460]  But it is the sort of exercise, and I think it's silly, but the exercise of establishing standards that they didn't have, that they broke, that they screwed up on.
[19:56.460 --> 20:08.700]  Like, these are punitive, and in fact, like, I feel like it's a childish exercise that we have to listen to it and speak about it as though it's news or as though it's an innovation.
[20:09.260 --> 20:14.000]  And, you know, why should this group have that power?
[20:14.000 --> 20:27.380]  Why should they then step in to be the illusion of bridling Mark Zuckerberg's omnipresence in whatever his gigantic, the point of his gigantic company is?
[20:27.540 --> 20:33.220]  And I feel that this is an inflection over what are they for?
[20:33.220 --> 20:35.360]  What is the point of all of this?
[20:35.540 --> 20:39.140]  Who is really benefiting and how is the technology being leveraged?
[20:39.780 --> 20:42.360]  And who is at the effect of it?
[20:42.360 --> 20:52.780]  Because I suspect, and I have suspected for a while, we've all pointed out how large and out of control a lot of these massive technology firms are.
[20:52.840 --> 20:54.340]  And that's what they bill themselves as.
[20:54.600 --> 21:06.640]  And in fact, I looked in a long time ago at some of the projects, and one in particular struck me is the open compute plans on the hardware that Facebook was developing in-house.
[21:06.640 --> 21:16.300]  And not only are they building their own hardware, because apparently, like, other vendors can't provide it, and they feel they can't stop disrupting.
[21:16.440 --> 21:21.400]  So they go ahead, design their own stuff, and then give away the plans.
[21:21.860 --> 21:24.620]  And it's great, but then you think about it.
[21:24.700 --> 21:25.960]  Who's buying this?
[21:26.080 --> 21:29.860]  Like, who is building from open compute plans?
[21:30.460 --> 21:32.240]  Who can afford any of that?
[21:32.420 --> 21:34.040]  What is the practicality?
[21:34.280 --> 21:43.120]  And since when did rating your friends on a social media network have anything to do with this deployment of tech?
[21:43.260 --> 21:46.540]  Kind of like Netflix emerged, needing hardware.
[21:46.820 --> 21:48.140]  What do they need all of this for?
[21:48.260 --> 21:49.220]  And who cares?
[21:49.500 --> 21:52.420]  Like, when did this become their lane?
[21:52.420 --> 22:02.460]  And I think those kinds of moments should have been perhaps writing on the wall or a sign to some of us that they're just throwing money around.
[22:02.820 --> 22:06.140]  And we'll, in one moment, do it with lawyers.
[22:06.140 --> 22:11.240]  In another moment, buying companies or stock or whatever it is.
[22:11.240 --> 22:13.640]  But it's that power that E pointed out.
[22:13.760 --> 22:14.720]  It's maintaining it.
[22:14.820 --> 22:15.800]  And this is what it is.
[22:15.920 --> 22:17.540]  They want to stay a hegemon.
[22:18.400 --> 22:20.100]  Well, good word, by the way.
[22:21.440 --> 22:28.060]  Whenever we look at a company like Facebook and wonder how they got so big, how they got so controlling, we're the reason.
[22:28.360 --> 22:29.260]  We give it to them.
[22:29.340 --> 22:30.520]  We let them do this.
[22:30.760 --> 22:31.860]  You know, every now and then.
[22:31.860 --> 22:33.020]  I have a Facebook account.
[22:33.120 --> 22:33.520]  Who doesn't?
[22:33.600 --> 22:34.560]  But I don't use it.
[22:34.860 --> 22:35.860]  But I am...
[22:35.860 --> 22:38.000]  You might think I'm logged in, but I'm actually...
[22:38.000 --> 22:44.080]  I just keep a presence on there so I can use a name client that still connects to Facebook contacts.
[22:44.680 --> 22:48.720]  But occasionally, I just go on to my timeline and look at what's going on.
[22:48.800 --> 22:53.120]  And I see all these momentous events in people's lives that I know, people that I talk to.
[22:53.560 --> 22:55.720]  And I'm not hearing about it in person.
[22:55.720 --> 22:57.600]  I'm not hearing about it in any other place.
[22:57.820 --> 23:05.780]  I have to go on Facebook to find out who got married, who contracted COVID, who's died, all sorts of things.
[23:05.780 --> 23:08.120]  Every time I look, I'm surprised.
[23:08.300 --> 23:11.240]  Why didn't anybody talk about this or say something?
[23:11.640 --> 23:15.940]  We're allowing Facebook to become the dominant means of communication.
[23:15.980 --> 23:17.440]  That is very unhealthy.
[23:17.660 --> 23:18.660]  It's one company.
[23:18.840 --> 23:25.840]  You know, we're talking about how Facebook might have done the right thing in banning an evil like Donald Trump, but they're an evil as well.
[23:26.020 --> 23:27.380]  A different kind of evil.
[23:27.580 --> 23:30.080]  You know, it's not an either or situation.
[23:30.660 --> 23:34.140]  But that amount of power, it's never a good thing.
[23:34.140 --> 23:37.640]  It's never a good thing to give any entity that kind of power.
[23:38.400 --> 23:46.220]  And, you know, actually, there's another story that I'd like to devote a little bit of time to concerning our friends over at Signal.
[23:48.280 --> 23:52.100]  They tried a little mischief with Facebook.
[23:53.140 --> 23:55.240]  They wrote this piece.
[23:55.840 --> 23:58.260]  Companies like Facebook aren't building technology for you.
[23:58.340 --> 24:00.040]  They're building technology for your data.
[24:00.040 --> 24:08.100]  They collect everything they can from Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp in order to sell visibility into people and their lives.
[24:08.940 --> 24:12.660]  This isn't exactly a secret, but the full picture is hazy to most.
[24:13.000 --> 24:19.320]  Dimly concealed within complex, opaquely rendered systems and fine print designed to be scrolled past.
[24:19.320 --> 24:26.560]  The way most of the Internet works today would be considered intolerable if translated into comprehensible, real-world analogs.
[24:27.080 --> 24:30.780]  But it endures because it is invisible.
[24:31.560 --> 24:39.240]  And this is part of this piece that was written by one of their developers.
[24:40.420 --> 24:53.300]  And what we have here are examples of exactly that, translating this spying on us into phrases that you can understand.
[24:53.440 --> 24:54.760]  Okay, I'm going to read an example.
[24:54.960 --> 24:59.960]  You got this ad because you're a K-pop-loving chemical engineer.
[24:59.960 --> 25:07.880]  This ad used your location to see you're in Berlin, and you have a new baby and just moved, and you're really feeling those pregnancy exercises lately.
[25:08.960 --> 25:10.760]  Imagine seeing that on your screen.
[25:11.780 --> 25:15.780]  Yeah, Facebook's own tools have the power to divulge what is otherwise unseen.
[25:16.040 --> 25:19.460]  It's already possible to catch fragments of these truths in the ads you're shown.
[25:19.680 --> 25:24.080]  They're glimmers that reflect the world of a surveilling stranger who knows you.
[25:24.320 --> 25:28.920]  We wanted to use those same tools to directly highlight how most technology works.
[25:28.920 --> 25:31.280]  We wanted to buy some Instagram ads.
[25:31.580 --> 25:32.700]  And that is what they did.
[25:32.760 --> 25:33.220]  Here's another one.
[25:33.400 --> 25:35.720]  You got this ad because you're a teacher.
[25:35.780 --> 25:38.300]  But more importantly, you're a Leo and single.
[25:38.620 --> 25:41.800]  This ad used your location to see you're in Moscow.
[25:42.280 --> 25:46.400]  You like to support sketch comedy, and this ad thinks you do drag.
[25:47.580 --> 25:56.500]  Yeah, we created a multivariant targeted ad designed to show you the personal data that Facebook collects about you and sells access to.
[25:56.500 --> 26:02.120]  The ad will simply display some of the information collected about the viewer, which the advertising platform uses.
[26:02.900 --> 26:03.700]  Well, guess what?
[26:03.840 --> 26:05.880]  Facebook was not into that idea.
[26:06.540 --> 26:09.140]  Now, cut them off.
[26:09.300 --> 26:15.620]  Facebook is more than willing to sell visibility into people's lives unless it's to tell people about how their data is being used.
[26:15.980 --> 26:20.520]  Being transparent about how ads use people's data is apparently enough to get banned.
[26:20.520 --> 26:26.560]  In Facebook's world, the only acceptable usage is to hide what you're doing from your audience.
[26:28.480 --> 26:33.860]  So, that is what happens when you expose Facebook for who they are and what they're doing.
[26:34.160 --> 26:37.800]  And hats off to J-U-N-H-3.
[26:37.880 --> 26:38.960]  I don't know how to pronounce that.
[26:39.100 --> 26:46.040]  At Signal for putting this together and learning something about what Facebook is really up to.
[26:46.040 --> 26:48.140]  So, Rob?
[26:48.800 --> 26:57.580]  Yeah, the developer in question, whose name is Jun Harada, it's a brilliant blog post, which you can see on Signal.org.
[26:57.780 --> 27:07.940]  And it also opens up part of what we were talking about before with the Trump issue, which is that people are looking to Facebook, which is all pervasive, all-encompassing.
[27:08.120 --> 27:09.840]  You asked before who doesn't have a Facebook.
[27:09.840 --> 27:18.900]  I don't, but even then, Facebook, I'm sure, knows who I am and knows who my friends are and knows what ads to serve me if I'm around.
[27:19.260 --> 27:21.120]  Because that's the way it all works.
[27:21.160 --> 27:22.420]  That's the way we've let it get.
[27:22.640 --> 27:39.140]  And now they're on a level where they have this pseudo-governmental power, and they're doing these tribunals in sort of a parody of a due process, in sort of a spoof of government and justice to basically just cement that role in everyone's head.
[27:39.140 --> 27:46.180]  But people on a certain side are willing to say, like, oh, Facebook is blocking Trump.
[27:46.200 --> 27:47.540]  That's against free speech.
[27:47.540 --> 27:48.520]  What about my free speech?
[27:48.600 --> 27:49.800]  And it's nothing to do with free speech.
[27:49.900 --> 27:54.060]  And, you know, no one's stopping you from rolling up your own website and writing whatever you want on it.
[27:54.220 --> 28:08.020]  But a company, like, making decisions to just say, we do want this, we don't want this on our platform, and then wrapping it up in this big, like, costume of a public utility is kind of ridiculous.
[28:08.020 --> 28:14.160]  And I think that needs as much exposing as possible as do practices like in these Instagram ads.
[28:14.260 --> 28:17.520]  And I really got to take my head off the signal for what they've done here.
[28:17.880 --> 28:19.080]  I absolutely agree.
[28:19.300 --> 28:23.500]  It's I am, I admit it, I'm a pretty active Facebook user.
[28:25.040 --> 28:28.720]  Are there things Rob doesn't know about because you only talk about it on Facebook?
[28:29.520 --> 28:30.960]  He's sitting right next to you.
[28:31.240 --> 28:32.780]  But that's what I'm talking about.
[28:32.860 --> 28:33.540]  That's what happens.
[28:34.140 --> 28:35.960]  Facebook knows who Rob is.
[28:36.120 --> 28:37.000]  I'm not a shit.
[28:37.200 --> 28:39.540]  Like, Rob is all over my Facebook profile.
[28:39.640 --> 28:40.820]  That's just how life is.
[28:41.220 --> 28:49.020]  But a few years ago, I remember getting served an ad for singlemuslim.com.
[28:50.360 --> 28:52.640]  And I said, interesting.
[28:53.040 --> 28:55.960]  So Facebook knows I'm single and Facebook knows I'm religious.
[28:57.380 --> 28:58.900]  I am not Muslim.
[28:59.060 --> 29:00.820]  But I said, this is interesting.
[29:01.000 --> 29:04.160]  So I've begun clicking on why did I get served this ad?
[29:04.500 --> 29:06.380]  And they don't give you most of the information.
[29:06.380 --> 29:09.060]  It's like, you're a woman and you live in the United States.
[29:10.940 --> 29:15.120]  And it's fascinating to me that the pieces of information that come...
[29:15.120 --> 29:19.460]  This is why I was so fascinated by the whole signal attempt, which I still think is amazing.
[29:19.800 --> 29:23.340]  And what they know and how they use it.
[29:23.620 --> 29:28.780]  And, you know, we got married a couple years ago.
[29:28.960 --> 29:30.800]  Facebook keeps sending me stuff about baby clothes.
[29:31.120 --> 29:32.220]  Because they just assume.
[29:32.620 --> 29:33.380]  It's time.
[29:33.720 --> 29:33.900]  Yeah.
[29:34.140 --> 29:35.180]  Facebook is telling you.
[29:35.760 --> 29:36.060]  Yeah.
[29:36.600 --> 29:38.060]  Listen to your overlords.
[29:38.920 --> 29:39.360]  Wow.
[29:40.580 --> 29:44.700]  You know, one thing I like to do is feed them fake information whenever possible.
[29:45.320 --> 29:47.300]  You know, you don't have to use your real name.
[29:47.300 --> 29:48.680]  You don't have to use your real location.
[29:49.100 --> 29:55.600]  What difference does it make to the people you're talking to if you tell a story that actually happened last week or maybe happened to somebody else?
[29:55.860 --> 30:00.320]  You know, tell the people that you actually see on a day-to-day basis, people you live with.
[30:00.400 --> 30:01.080]  Tell them the truth.
[30:01.400 --> 30:05.480]  But do you really have to bear everything to everybody?
[30:05.520 --> 30:06.660]  I think that is...
[30:06.660 --> 30:13.400]  It sounds healthy, but it really isn't when there is an all-seeing eye witnessing all of this.
[30:14.160 --> 30:16.960]  Yeah, it takes control.
[30:17.180 --> 30:27.680]  I mean, when then people realize they're being surveyed actively by the technology, by what they say, it then becomes a filter and a sort of self-censorship.
[30:27.940 --> 30:31.100]  And the blandness, the difference disappears.
[30:31.100 --> 30:33.300]  The blandness ensues.
[30:33.560 --> 30:47.120]  And it changes the dynamic of what people feel is acceptable in the public square, in the discourse itself.
[30:47.120 --> 31:03.160]  And then in comes this infusion of algorithmic power and emphasis to further change that dynamic.
[31:03.160 --> 31:26.940]  And I think what is really sad is a lot of the platforms, like the social networks, could have benefited from more emphasis on actually connecting people in certain ways that were positive and emphasized and amplified the virtuous parts of those platforms' abilities.
[31:26.940 --> 31:41.600]  But instead, they didn't have a model to run financially so that this advertising scheme was grafted on when, like, Instagram was bought by Facebook.
[31:41.800 --> 31:50.540]  So they sort of infect a lot of these cool ideas with then their business model, again, taking the information, commodifying it.
[31:50.540 --> 31:59.600]  I mean, Instagram properties, now properties of Facebook, didn't necessarily have to become what they did.
[32:00.220 --> 32:06.360]  They did have a need for sort of market viability, but there are other models.
[32:06.500 --> 32:08.500]  Again, we've talked about, like, subscription methods.
[32:08.940 --> 32:30.500]  People, if they didn't have ads, if they knew all their friends would be there, if they felt like it was a place that they were comfortable being themselves on or being weird on and, you know, expressive, then I think, you know, there would be value, especially in opposition to what we have.
[32:31.100 --> 32:36.620]  That's, I think, the essence of how we should look at it going forward.
[32:36.620 --> 32:46.940]  I think the evil really starts once you introduce advertising because that is something that you sell your soul for, and that's what these companies appear to be doing.
[32:47.100 --> 32:55.420]  Imagine if, you know, social networks were kind of like Wikipedias, you know, that didn't have advertising everywhere that relied on the support of their users.
[32:55.740 --> 33:08.940]  I think you'd have a much more honest communication system, much more honest social network, and not based so much on popularity and not having all sorts of surveillance performed on you.
[33:09.980 --> 33:11.660]  It's not a healthy environment.
[33:11.660 --> 33:13.440]  It's not a healthy environment on so many levels.
[33:13.640 --> 33:15.080]  Now, we're focusing a lot on Facebook.
[33:15.080 --> 33:21.360]  I'd like to focus on another evil, and this one is Google, specifically YouTube, which Google owns.
[33:21.560 --> 33:27.360]  There is a channel on YouTube called The Piano Keys.
[33:27.700 --> 33:31.100]  It's hooked up to the website, thepianokeys.com.
[33:31.260 --> 33:42.680]  I want you to hear the story of the owner of that organization who is trying to teach people how to play the damn piano.
[33:42.980 --> 33:44.680]  You know, that's what she's doing.
[33:44.920 --> 33:55.520]  She has a small business doing this, and she thought it would be a good idea to play a little piece of Beethoven on her YouTube channel.
[33:56.260 --> 33:57.180]  Well, guess what?
[33:57.200 --> 33:58.280]  It didn't go so well.
[33:59.140 --> 34:00.780]  Let's listen in her words.
[34:01.820 --> 34:02.720]  Hi, everyone.
[34:03.080 --> 34:04.460]  Welcome to The Piano Keys.
[34:04.460 --> 34:05.860]  I'm so glad that you're here.
[34:06.420 --> 34:19.200]  Well, this is a very different 5th anniversary celebration video than what I was planning on making, but unfortunately, I'm not in control here.
[34:19.680 --> 34:28.580]  So, a few weeks ago, I posted a video that was a tutorial on how to play the rhythm in Moonlight Sonata correctly.
[34:28.580 --> 34:33.900]  And as part of that video, I played a bit of Moonlight Sonata.
[34:34.620 --> 34:51.860]  So, there's a new thing at YouTube where before your video even goes live, there is an automatic scan done by some kind of AI or something that scans for copyrighted material.
[34:51.860 --> 35:00.420]  And before the video even went live, I was notified that there's a copyright claim on my video.
[35:01.340 --> 35:16.460]  And apparently, what we all think is called Moonlight Sonata and was written more than 200 years ago by a man who died more than 200 years ago and whose music is now in the public domain, which means it belongs to all of us.
[35:16.560 --> 35:19.360]  So, we think that's what this piece is.
[35:19.360 --> 35:33.740]  But, according to the copyright claimant, whom I don't know who it is, some nameless, faceless corporation or something, is calling it Wicca Moonlight.
[35:34.800 --> 35:35.740]  That's right.
[35:35.920 --> 35:39.260]  Video uses this song's melody, Wicca Moonlight.
[35:39.620 --> 35:40.040]  Okay.
[35:40.760 --> 35:41.860]  If you say so.
[35:41.860 --> 35:53.740]  So, of course, I filed a dispute, and I had no doubt at all that it was going to be decided in my favor because it's Moonlight Sonata, people.
[35:53.960 --> 35:55.660]  I mean, there's no two ways about it.
[35:55.860 --> 36:02.160]  And the person or entity who files the copyright claim has 30 days to respond.
[36:02.560 --> 36:03.600]  And guess what?
[36:03.600 --> 36:20.220]  But they responded that I was wrong, and so now I can either choose to cut out that part of the video, or I can continue by saying that this is my cover of somebody else's piece.
[36:20.400 --> 36:22.800]  Well, it is my cover of somebody else's piece.
[36:22.960 --> 36:24.120]  It's Beethoven's piece.
[36:24.120 --> 36:39.140]  But if I go ahead and monetize this video, which isn't a big deal, I'm not making that much money anyway, but if I monetize it, I'm basically admitting that, yes, this is called Wicca's Moonlight, and that I'm using their melody.
[36:39.660 --> 36:44.240]  So they can still, whoever this is, can still put ads on the video.
[36:44.380 --> 36:48.040]  I won't get any money from it, even though it's completely my work.
[36:48.040 --> 37:00.940]  I conceived of the video, I set up all the lighting, all the audio, all the video, I did all the recording, I did all the editing, I uploaded, I did literally everything.
[37:01.200 --> 37:07.040]  And somebody else gets to say that, no, this is actually not my work, it belongs to them.
[37:07.300 --> 37:09.780]  Now, I do have a recourse.
[37:10.940 --> 37:11.880]  I'll show you.
[37:12.280 --> 37:16.380]  I can select an action, and here it says I can trim out the segment.
[37:16.380 --> 37:21.580]  Uh, I'm not going to trim out the part that actually shows you what I'm talking about.
[37:21.980 --> 37:32.380]  I can replace the song, well, no, I can't, because, first of all, it's not a song, it's a piece written by Beethoven, and it is actually what the video is about, so I can't do that.
[37:32.600 --> 37:37.900]  I can mute the song, okay, again, not a song, but I'm not going to mute Beethoven.
[37:38.420 --> 37:41.480]  Or, it says, do you have rights to this content?
[37:41.760 --> 37:42.140]  Appeal.
[37:42.340 --> 37:42.820]  Great!
[37:43.200 --> 37:45.020]  That's what I clicked on, appeal.
[37:45.020 --> 37:46.440]  What is an appeal?
[37:46.700 --> 37:59.680]  So, there's all this stuff that I have to read, and if I appeal, and it's not decided in my favor, that actually counts as a copyright strike against my channel.
[37:59.900 --> 38:04.260]  If you're not familiar, if you get three strikes on your channel, your channel is out.
[38:04.560 --> 38:05.040]  That's it.
[38:05.160 --> 38:09.380]  There is no appeal after that, and nothing you can do.
[38:10.040 --> 38:16.680]  So, I say, okay, fine, I'm a rational human being, again, this is not a copyrighted piece.
[38:16.840 --> 38:20.000]  So, alright, I click on it, and now I hit continue.
[38:20.740 --> 38:32.860]  So, I have to give my full legal name, my email, my street address completely, and hand it over to somebody that I don't know.
[38:32.860 --> 38:46.400]  So, the copyright owners, quote, owners, are something called APRA, CS, ECAD, CS, SOCAN, VCPMC, CS.
[38:46.600 --> 38:47.880]  Okay, what are these things?
[38:47.960 --> 38:48.460]  Who are they?
[38:48.540 --> 38:49.140]  I don't know.
[38:49.440 --> 38:54.800]  So, I did a little bit of research, very little bit, because this is really upsetting to me.
[38:54.800 --> 38:58.420]  And apparently, anyone can file a copyright claim.
[38:58.580 --> 38:59.960]  Anyone, including bots.
[39:01.640 --> 39:19.660]  And other channels have been taken down because copyright claims and strikes have been filed against them by trolls, or they have wanted money, basically blackmailing big channels to give money, or bitcoins, or whatever, so that these copyright strikes can be removed.
[39:19.660 --> 39:31.980]  Now, I'm not a big channel, so I'm still really small, so I'm sure this video will just disappear into the ether of YouTube, and a few of you will see it and get angry, and that's about it.
[39:32.380 --> 39:34.340]  So, there is no appeal process.
[39:34.340 --> 39:37.000]  There is no way to speak with anybody at YouTube.
[39:37.140 --> 39:38.140]  There's just nothing.
[39:38.540 --> 39:42.360]  And this speaks to something that I've been thinking about for a little while.
[39:42.740 --> 39:46.540]  So, YouTube can't exist without the creators.
[39:46.540 --> 39:52.660]  And the creators' work can't get as big an audience as it does without YouTube.
[39:52.660 --> 39:54.300]  So, we depend on one another.
[39:54.620 --> 39:58.560]  However, this is a very imbalanced relationship.
[39:59.500 --> 40:10.460]  So, you know, corporations have basically taken away the ability of most musicians to actually make a living wage doing what they do.
[40:10.460 --> 40:19.440]  So, this includes big names that you would know, you know, famous people that are not making as much money as you think they might be.
[40:19.600 --> 40:27.500]  But, you know, someone like me, Small Fry on YouTube, if I told you how much I make, you would probably ask me, why am I doing this?
[40:27.540 --> 40:36.720]  So, I've been doing this because I love playing the piano, and I love showing other people how to do it, you know, if they really want to learn.
[40:36.720 --> 40:44.380]  I love this, and I love having YouTube as a platform where I can reach people that I would never be able to reach in real life.
[40:45.300 --> 40:57.920]  But, on the other hand, it's a constant effort, you know, putting out videos and working and working and working, hoping that somehow the algorithm will pick me up or whatever, you know.
[40:57.920 --> 41:07.000]  And my channel's been growing, and I've met really great people, and I've been able to teach, you know, everybody who wants to be taught that has found me.
[41:07.180 --> 41:08.640]  So, all this is really good.
[41:08.940 --> 41:15.400]  However, especially, you know, the past year of the pandemic, I've had no work as a musician.
[41:15.600 --> 41:18.340]  My income has been decreasing more and more.
[41:18.340 --> 41:34.240]  And it seems like, I don't know, it seems like intellectual property or artistic work is held in very little regard if we look at the metrics of how much people are willing to pay for it.
[41:34.820 --> 41:44.380]  So, if you have made a donation to my channel, or you've bought, you know, my courses or sheet music and things like that, then, of course, I thank you very much.
[41:44.380 --> 41:51.680]  And if you haven't been able to do that because, you know, you just don't have the finances, of course, you know, enjoy with my compliments.
[41:52.540 --> 42:06.880]  But at the end of the day, there are people who want me to basically work for free so they can get the benefit of it, and, you know, that's not okay in my book.
[42:07.040 --> 42:21.900]  So, going forward, even though I had planned really awesome things for my YouTube channel, I'm not going to do that, because apparently it's not even, like, a copyright claim for a piece of music that can bring you down.
[42:22.080 --> 42:24.680]  It's... people can say it's hate speech or whatever.
[42:25.000 --> 42:33.780]  If somebody decides they don't like me, then... and if they know how to do this thing, then my channel can be taken down quite easily and quite quickly.
[42:34.120 --> 42:35.220]  And that's it.
[42:35.360 --> 42:38.880]  Somebody else will just take the place of the piano keys, right?
[42:38.940 --> 42:39.760]  Some other channel.
[42:39.760 --> 42:52.260]  So, what I'm saying here is, I've been thinking a lot about, you know, corporatism and how it's basically encroaching into every aspect of our lives.
[42:52.500 --> 42:55.120]  The individual matters less and less.
[42:56.020 --> 42:57.500]  People are being canceled.
[42:57.860 --> 43:00.800]  You know, whether you agree with it or not, I don't agree with it.
[43:00.880 --> 43:02.040]  I'm all about free speech.
[43:04.040 --> 43:05.280]  There's... there's an airplane.
[43:06.160 --> 43:11.800]  And free speech, even when people are saying things you don't agree with, that's when free speech matters.
[43:11.960 --> 43:13.500]  Okay, I live in the United States.
[43:13.640 --> 43:15.200]  We're all about free speech.
[43:15.260 --> 43:16.220]  Or at least we used to be.
[43:16.480 --> 43:17.200]  I don't know now.
[43:17.800 --> 43:20.040]  But my point here is that...
[43:21.760 --> 43:29.060]  Okay, so I'm not going off the internet, because I really love doing what I'm doing and reaching you and interacting with you.
[43:29.280 --> 43:37.520]  And I'll still post performances of my arrangements and things like that, so that you can find them and other people can find them.
[43:38.120 --> 43:42.380]  I'm going to think about how I'll be holding my tutorials from now on.
[43:42.600 --> 43:44.220]  Probably not on YouTube anymore.
[43:44.420 --> 43:44.880]  I just...
[43:44.880 --> 43:46.060]  I just can't.
[43:46.120 --> 43:48.640]  It's heartbreaking to put in...
[43:48.640 --> 43:51.820]  I've put in thousands of hours of work on my channel.
[43:52.960 --> 43:58.420]  And just to think that, it can be taken down so easily with no recourse.
[43:58.420 --> 44:00.380]  That's the part that really gets to me.
[44:00.440 --> 44:04.000]  There's no way to have my day in court, so to speak.
[44:04.200 --> 44:10.460]  It's just somebody says, like, hey, this person is doing something that goes against whatever policy.
[44:10.820 --> 44:11.740]  And that's it.
[44:11.940 --> 44:12.580]  That's it.
[44:12.720 --> 44:14.740]  You're canceled, eventually.
[44:15.680 --> 44:16.160]  Okay?
[44:16.300 --> 44:17.060]  Or you can be.
[44:17.340 --> 44:21.380]  So, I'm not really sure how you can help.
[44:21.820 --> 44:24.520]  I think some of you might be wanting to know how you can help.
[44:24.820 --> 44:30.920]  But what you can do is, if you want to still be in contact with me, send me an email.
[44:31.240 --> 44:33.260]  Marina at thepianokeys.com.
[44:33.360 --> 44:35.540]  Tell me that you want to be put on my mailing list.
[44:35.760 --> 44:42.740]  I might be sending out a weekly newsletter, find another place to host my tutorials, things like that.
[44:42.740 --> 44:43.740]  I'm not sure yet.
[44:44.240 --> 44:46.660]  I'm still, like, really raw about this.
[44:46.780 --> 44:50.880]  And I'm not a person who is very technical.
[44:50.880 --> 44:53.400]  Like, I, you know, I don't like all that stuff.
[44:53.400 --> 44:55.340]  I just want to create and I want to put it out there.
[44:55.420 --> 44:56.600]  And that's why YouTube's so great.
[44:56.740 --> 44:57.940]  You know, the platform's already made.
[44:58.180 --> 45:00.220]  So, if you ask me, like, what are you going to do?
[45:00.300 --> 45:00.820]  I don't know.
[45:01.100 --> 45:02.160]  I will have to research.
[45:02.320 --> 45:06.580]  Add that to my million plus to-do list.
[45:07.760 --> 45:14.680]  But, so, anyway, long story short, YouTube does not really care about the content creators.
[45:14.680 --> 45:19.380]  YouTube cares about the big advertisers and about, I guess, not being sued.
[45:19.380 --> 45:20.180]  I don't even know.
[45:20.360 --> 45:30.180]  I also researched and I saw that even when it's a fake entity that is making the copyright claim, it doesn't matter.
[45:30.360 --> 45:31.240]  YouTube doesn't care.
[45:32.060 --> 45:39.940]  It's easier for them to just kind of, like, get rid of, you know, the YouTuber than to try to stand up for them.
[45:40.060 --> 45:41.560]  Hopefully, that will change in the future.
[45:42.060 --> 45:50.660]  However, I'm not optimistic about it, to be quite honest with you, just looking at the way things are going, the individual becoming less and less important.
[45:51.740 --> 45:52.700]  But, anyway, yeah.
[45:52.880 --> 45:55.180]  So, if you want to stay in contact with me, send me an email.
[45:55.420 --> 45:58.660]  Say, put me on your mailing list for a newsletter or whatever.
[45:59.280 --> 46:01.860]  I might do Zoom tutorials.
[46:01.860 --> 46:03.020]  I don't really know.
[46:03.820 --> 46:04.260]  Okay.
[46:04.260 --> 46:06.680]  So, we'll have to figure out what we're doing.
[46:06.680 --> 46:11.780]  But, so, I was hoping to do, like, a big fifth anniversary celebration.
[46:12.240 --> 46:13.340]  That's not going to happen.
[46:14.100 --> 46:15.680]  I'll still be making tutorials.
[46:16.280 --> 46:17.640]  I'll still be making courses.
[46:18.160 --> 46:23.980]  And She Music is just going to be probably in a different place than on YouTube.
[46:24.660 --> 46:25.440]  All right.
[46:25.620 --> 46:26.660]  Well, keep practicing.
[46:26.660 --> 46:27.440]  Have fun.
[46:27.540 --> 46:29.720]  And I hope to see you soon.
[46:30.720 --> 46:31.320]  Bye.
[46:32.320 --> 46:32.920]  Wow.
[46:33.180 --> 46:34.680]  Well, that was interesting.
[46:34.920 --> 46:35.860]  That was something else.
[46:35.860 --> 46:39.800]  That was from the YouTube channel, The Piano Keys.
[46:41.620 --> 46:47.160]  We heard from Marina, who has gotten a dose of reality as to what YouTube is really all about.
[46:47.160 --> 46:55.620]  When somebody decided to copyright a piano concerto, or a piece of a piano concerto from Beethoven, claim it was theirs.
[46:55.860 --> 46:56.780]  She had to defend herself.
[46:56.780 --> 47:02.040]  She had to basically say that the video she created was not hers.
[47:02.240 --> 47:10.600]  And the other entity, which could have been a bot, could have been anything, got to benefit from this and reap advertising money from something they had nothing to do with.
[47:10.800 --> 47:21.500]  And this is how a company like YouTube apparently is run, through algorithms, without humans actually communicating a decision, an opinion, asking questions.
[47:21.500 --> 47:27.080]  The decision is made from some mindless computer someplace.
[47:27.080 --> 47:28.040]  Who knows?
[47:28.680 --> 47:35.580]  And increasingly, I find people just are having to deal with this and trying to find alternatives.
[47:35.580 --> 47:37.420]  There need to be alternatives.
[47:37.420 --> 47:41.200]  And I don't think anything spells that out more clearly than a story like this.
[47:41.200 --> 47:41.700]  Rob?
[47:44.320 --> 47:45.160]  Rob, you're muted.
[47:48.370 --> 47:49.430]  Rob, you're still muted.
[47:49.750 --> 47:49.970]  Sorry.
[47:50.150 --> 47:50.630]  Sorry about that.
[47:50.750 --> 47:51.050]  Got that.
[47:51.770 --> 47:52.110]  All right.
[47:52.390 --> 47:58.410]  The issue of intellectual property and copyright is not a clear-cut thing.
[47:58.530 --> 47:59.870]  It's not a yes or no thing.
[48:00.110 --> 48:09.570]  There are always ways and means in which people might be reusing copyrighted material in a way they're allowed under the laws of the United States and many other countries.
[48:09.570 --> 48:12.570]  There is material that is in the public domain.
[48:12.810 --> 48:14.230]  Everyone owns it, like Beethoven.
[48:14.550 --> 48:18.070]  There is material that is freely licensed, Creative Commons, things like that.
[48:18.250 --> 48:25.890]  And there is material that might be copyrighted, but you're using it in a way that is protected by the concept of fair use, which exists in this country.
[48:26.070 --> 48:47.710]  And the trouble with computers making these decisions and just giving people a hard no and giving them no further recourse like this is a computer will never be able to judge all of those possible states of being and all of those possible courses of events that would lead somebody to be allowed to use the clip that they're using.
[48:48.130 --> 48:53.790]  And when it comes to something like this, which is patently ridiculous, she's using a bit of Beethoven.
[48:54.170 --> 48:58.190]  Somebody else somewhere managed to get that bit of Beethoven into the algorithms as their property.
[48:58.350 --> 48:59.510]  Obviously, that's not true.
[49:00.050 --> 49:06.910]  Um, this has also happened with, uh, with an artist I follow called, uh, Hasselonia who put out an album of, uh, public domain music.
[49:06.910 --> 49:14.810]  I think it was actually called the public domain EP or the public domain album and, uh, said, you know, everyone's allowed to use this, use it for whatever you like.
[49:14.950 --> 49:22.610]  And when people started using it on YouTube, again, somebody else had registered that public domain material as their own in YouTube's copyright algorithms.
[49:22.810 --> 49:27.070]  And people were getting takedown notices, um, for using stuff that they had permission to use.
[49:29.510 --> 49:35.290]  And there needs to be a way to get through to a human, but YouTube is, is not run like that.
[49:35.390 --> 49:37.530]  It's not run in a way that protects the smaller creators.
[49:37.530 --> 49:44.490]  It's not run in a way that encourages creativity and remixing and building upon things in a way that's in ways that we're allowed to.
[49:44.690 --> 49:47.170]  And that as a working artist, I find very, you know, sacred.
[49:47.550 --> 49:52.610]  Um, it's, it's just interested in, um, letting computers do whatever the people with the most money want them to do.
[49:52.810 --> 49:55.730]  And we end up, uh, running people like this off the platform.
[49:55.730 --> 50:05.670]  And I, you know, I think since Google got their hands on YouTube, it has gone downhill so much with the, uh, obtrusive ads and the overzealousness of, of, of quote unquote, copyright enforcement.
[50:06.050 --> 50:06.830]  Alex, go ahead.
[50:08.210 --> 50:09.090]  Yeah, sure.
[50:09.170 --> 50:09.430]  Absolutely.
[50:09.570 --> 50:12.330]  And I think overzealousness is, is the right word here.
[50:12.330 --> 50:28.670]  And coincidentally, uh, I actually use that word in, uh, a forthcoming, I give a peek over the fence of a forthcoming article about this very issue coming out in the financial times soon, uh, special report section that they'll have in a couple of weeks.
[50:28.810 --> 50:38.870]  Uh, and also my column in 2600 magazine, uh, the forthcoming issue coming out will also be about social media and transparency and rights and things like that.
[50:38.870 --> 50:53.890]  So it'll be kind of interesting, but I, I think you hit it right on the head of manual that it's this overzealousness when it comes to the protection of intellectual property of copyright, but yet at the same time, there are all these horrible things happening on these social media platforms like disinformation,
[50:54.270 --> 51:01.750]  election interference, fomenting insurrection, all these types of horrible things that don't get the same zealous type of protection.
[51:02.210 --> 51:02.750]  What do we get?
[51:02.930 --> 51:13.990]  Four months later, we get a decision from a corporate tribunal basically saying, yes, you did the right thing in banning Trump, but now you have to reconsider whether or not you're letting them back on the platform and you've got another six months to do that.
[51:14.530 --> 51:28.450]  But also, I think, Rob, to bounce off some of your points, I think the real issue here is, is the equities and the fairness of being able to take down content on the basis of algorithmically matching content.
[51:28.830 --> 51:43.890]  And these algorithms, well, there's a damn good reason why, let's say, you know, Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata played by one person sounds like Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata played like another person is because it's the same goddamn Moonlight Sonata, right?
[51:44.010 --> 51:45.350]  It's the same thing.
[51:45.350 --> 51:50.670]  It's the same notes being played in different creative means by different people, right?
[51:50.770 --> 51:54.930]  So the problem, though, I think, is that the burden shifts.
[51:55.110 --> 52:08.610]  Once you have an algorithmic takedown of this particular content, of a creative person who may rely for their livelihood, as I think it was Miranda said that to a certain extent she does, then it shifts to this requirement of human intervention.
[52:08.950 --> 52:17.130]  And that human intervention slows things down because you're waiting for a human to look at something, to read something, to look at the history, look at the content, make an assessment.
[52:17.430 --> 52:19.010]  These are things that algorithms don't do.
[52:19.230 --> 52:27.770]  So if you need human intervention to get something back up, it seems to me like it would only be fair to have human intervention to take it down, right?
[52:27.990 --> 52:37.630]  Because by the time a human decides, yeah, oh, we're dealing with something, the copyright for which it expired over 200 years ago, so let's put this back up.
[52:37.870 --> 52:39.150]  The damage is already done.
[52:39.330 --> 52:40.850]  The person has lost their content.
[52:41.190 --> 52:44.430]  Their livelihood has been possibly irrevocably altered.
[52:44.670 --> 52:45.110]  Go ahead, Kyle.
[52:45.830 --> 53:04.210]  Well, I just think this is going back and stemming from that unwillingness to reimagine or change that fundamental model, that form of business that underlies what has brought us to this point.
[53:05.130 --> 53:23.890]  And by instituting this copyright scheme, it just looks like they've just monetized a way to penalize people, and it's turned into a tripwire for that instead of advertisers.
[53:24.930 --> 53:39.510]  But because they can't let go, it has to look like something, and it's not traversing to a place that's going to work, actually, I think, for the creators.
[53:40.030 --> 53:40.790]  You know what?
[53:40.790 --> 53:45.290]  We're going to continue this conversation, ironically enough, on YouTube in a few minutes.
[53:45.770 --> 53:55.590]  Go to our YouTube channel, youtube.com slash channel 2600, or just click on the link on the front page of 2600.com.
[53:55.670 --> 53:56.510]  That's up there right now.
[53:57.030 --> 53:58.430]  We have other things to talk about as well.
[53:58.470 --> 54:03.790]  And you can call us at 802-321-4225, 802-321-HACK.
[54:03.870 --> 54:05.070]  So that starts at 8 o'clock.
[54:05.570 --> 54:08.950]  You can also write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[54:08.950 --> 54:15.790]  Hey, it's Cinco de Mayo, the 5th of May, and I figured I'd play something from Mexico.
[54:15.950 --> 54:17.610]  This is literally from Mexico.
[54:17.610 --> 54:24.010]  When I was traveling there once, I stopped at one of these roadside joints, and they were playing music.
[54:24.010 --> 54:29.370]  And I liked the music so much, I tried to ask the person behind the counter what this music was, who it was.
[54:30.410 --> 54:35.890]  We didn't really understand each other, but when I left, she handed me the cassette they were playing.
[54:35.970 --> 54:37.030]  That's why it sounds like a cassette.
[54:37.750 --> 54:45.150]  And that's how I remember Mexico, is people being so generous and friendly and filled with good music and food.
[54:46.010 --> 54:48.070]  So think about all that on this 5th of May.
[54:48.270 --> 54:51.630]  We will be back next weekend on YouTube in a couple of minutes.
[54:51.870 --> 54:52.870]  It's Emmanuel for Off the Hook.
[54:53.490 --> 54:54.750]  Stay tuned to WBAI.
[54:55.170 --> 54:55.970]  We'll see you soon.
[54:56.050 --> 54:56.250]  Good night.
[54:59.370 --> 55:01.930]  We'll see you soon.
[56:10.120 --> 56:13.560]  Hi, I'm Bryn Clark, the editor of The Three Mothers.
[56:13.860 --> 56:17.180]  Hi, I'm Ana Malaikachev, the author of The Three Mothers.
[56:17.440 --> 56:26.000]  I am the law, one of the co-conductors of the Harlem Connection radio show, heard right here on WBAI.
[56:26.000 --> 56:37.060]  And the three of us, Ana, Bryn, and myself, hope that you will join us this Friday as we get you ready for Mother's Day weekend.
[56:37.420 --> 56:59.260]  We will talk about the book, The Three Mothers, which explains how Louise Little, Curtis Baldwin, and Alberta Williams King helped to influence the thinking and the lives of their sons, Malcolm X, James Baldwin, and Martin Luther King Jr. We will also play music by some of our mother's favorite artists.
[56:59.540 --> 57:14.440]  So, we hope you will join us right here on listener-supported radio, WBAI, Friday night, 10 o'clock on 99.5 FM or WBAI.org.
[57:14.440 --> 57:18.640]  You gave me strength to go on.
[57:18.720 --> 57:25.520]  There were so many times looking back when I was so afraid.
[57:26.460 --> 57:31.560]  And then you come to me and you say to me, I could face anything.
[00:00.780 --> 00:03.140]  And here we are on Overtime.
[00:03.280 --> 00:03.880]  Welcome, everybody.
[00:04.900 --> 00:06.060]  Did we all make it over?
[00:07.360 --> 00:07.760]  Yes.
[00:08.100 --> 00:08.580]  You all there?
[00:08.800 --> 00:09.020]  We're here.
[00:09.220 --> 00:09.800]  Okay, great.
[00:10.100 --> 00:16.680]  You know, it strikes me that as things get more normal, Overtime isn't going to be around, you know?
[00:16.780 --> 00:23.020]  It's become very popular, but we'd be clearing out of the studio right now and being kicked out onto the street.
[00:23.140 --> 00:24.320]  Can't really do Overtime from there.
[00:25.960 --> 00:31.700]  So, yeah, embrace it while you can, folks, because it's not going to be around much longer unless another pandemic comes by.
[00:31.920 --> 00:35.660]  Or unless we're banned from going inside the studio for some reason.
[00:35.820 --> 00:38.120]  I could see some scenarios where that would play out.
[00:38.640 --> 00:39.360]  Also possible.
[00:39.620 --> 00:46.260]  I did actually find out something I wanted to clarify from the show, which was I said it was...
[00:46.260 --> 00:48.820]  You are Muslim or...
[00:49.480 --> 00:49.960]  Yes.
[00:50.200 --> 00:51.200]  Facebook is right.
[00:51.360 --> 00:51.500]  Okay.
[00:52.120 --> 00:52.940]  Facebook is totally right.
[00:52.940 --> 00:55.420]  But, no, Alex said one show.
[00:55.420 --> 00:57.220]  I said the better part of a year.
[00:57.660 --> 00:59.260]  The truth is somewhere in between.
[00:59.260 --> 01:05.020]  We did our first show in the new studio on November 27th, 2019.
[01:06.620 --> 01:07.080]  Really?
[01:07.080 --> 01:08.520]  So, it wasn't that many then?
[01:08.720 --> 01:09.660]  It really wasn't that many.
[01:09.660 --> 01:10.020]  It wasn't that many.
[01:10.380 --> 01:11.760]  It felt like a lot more.
[01:11.940 --> 01:12.240]  Thank you.
[01:12.580 --> 01:12.720]  Yeah.
[01:12.860 --> 01:13.940]  Well, it was several months, Alex.
[01:14.260 --> 01:16.140]  I said one, but I was kidding.
[01:17.380 --> 01:18.040]  That's true.
[01:18.340 --> 01:19.000]  I don't know.
[01:19.000 --> 01:22.920]  It felt like we were in and out of that studio really quickly for some reason.
[01:23.580 --> 01:25.040]  In the grander scheme of things.
[01:25.600 --> 01:42.740]  I have a word from a contact at the station on the vast engineering team that wanted to make sure that we tempered our optimism.
[01:43.280 --> 01:49.460]  Because, well, they reminded me that we are still in a pandemic.
[01:49.920 --> 01:58.160]  And, you know, if we returned, it could be a scenario where things change and we have to come back to this.
[01:58.480 --> 02:01.560]  Wait, if we go to the station, then the pandemic comes back?
[02:01.660 --> 02:02.340]  That's what they told you?
[02:02.340 --> 02:05.900]  No, that it could be short-lived, you know, things being good.
[02:06.080 --> 02:07.500]  They seem good now, yes.
[02:07.700 --> 02:10.260]  But in many ways, they could change.
[02:10.280 --> 02:11.200]  We know this.
[02:11.200 --> 02:12.120]  Why are we getting lectured?
[02:12.240 --> 02:14.460]  Look, New York City is reopening on May 19th.
[02:14.540 --> 02:18.580]  All I'm saying is that that means that things are getting back to normal.
[02:18.600 --> 02:24.580]  And if, you know, we are getting back to normal along with everything else, that's the natural order of things, right?
[02:25.520 --> 02:26.120]  Yeah.
[02:26.560 --> 02:32.120]  But that this isn't over, over for, like, you know, permanently.
[02:32.500 --> 02:37.880]  There's still a possibility of needing to keep a distance.
[02:37.880 --> 02:38.700]  That's all.
[02:38.980 --> 02:39.180]  Yeah.
[02:39.360 --> 02:40.360]  We know this.
[02:40.400 --> 02:46.680]  It took a lot to get to a point where we're realistically thinking about shedding some of the changes.
[02:46.680 --> 02:49.200]  So that's all I wanted to convey.
[02:49.240 --> 02:50.760]  And I respect that.
[02:50.760 --> 02:55.680]  But I think, you know, for the safety of staff and operations at the radio station, that's a good point.
[02:55.800 --> 02:57.200]  It may not be the best thing.
[02:57.280 --> 02:59.460]  And no one's diving right into it.
[02:59.540 --> 03:04.940]  We're not having, like, an all-staff rollercoaster party or something.
[03:05.080 --> 03:05.780]  No, that's what we're talking about.
[03:05.780 --> 03:07.240]  We're talking about easing into it.
[03:07.360 --> 03:07.520]  Yeah.
[03:07.580 --> 03:11.720]  And what we're pointing out here, Broadway is reopening, you know, in September.
[03:13.340 --> 03:14.640]  And restaurants are reopening.
[03:14.640 --> 03:22.000]  So it's likely that the radio station will be opening again for people to actually come in fairly soon.
[03:22.340 --> 03:22.800]  Fairly soon.
[03:22.920 --> 03:24.960]  Like, not six months from now.
[03:25.140 --> 03:26.420]  Like, maybe a month or two.
[03:27.100 --> 03:27.880]  Maybe sooner.
[03:28.040 --> 03:28.420]  Who knows?
[03:29.140 --> 03:30.540]  But, well...
[03:30.540 --> 03:31.780]  When is the rollercoaster party?
[03:31.920 --> 03:32.700]  I don't know.
[03:33.000 --> 03:33.960]  Nobody tells me anything.
[03:36.660 --> 03:39.280]  So I wanted to continue what we were talking about.
[03:44.640 --> 03:48.820]  You know, we have gotten a couple of complaints from people saying they've tried to get through and they can't.
[03:48.920 --> 03:50.160]  And the same people keep calling.
[03:50.800 --> 03:51.260]  All right.
[03:51.320 --> 03:58.260]  You know, if you're new, if you haven't called before, this is an invitation for you to call now, 802-321-4225.
[03:59.120 --> 04:03.580]  If you're in an exotic place, and I'll leave it up to you to define what that might be.
[04:03.720 --> 04:05.220]  But generally, it's far away.
[04:05.340 --> 04:08.000]  It's a different country, a different part of the world.
[04:08.400 --> 04:11.280]  And you want to share that with us, do a call.
[04:11.280 --> 04:14.620]  Country Code 1, 802-321-4225.
[04:15.140 --> 04:16.320]  We'd like to hear from you.
[04:16.520 --> 04:21.300]  We're talking about the evils of all sorts of things.
[04:21.920 --> 04:24.440]  Various politicians, various corporations.
[04:24.800 --> 04:26.780]  But there was one story we didn't get to.
[04:27.460 --> 04:36.660]  And that's that the Biden administration is considering using outside firms to track extremist chatter by Americans online.
[04:36.660 --> 04:44.280]  An effort that would expand the government's ability to gather intelligence, but could draw criticism over surveillance of U.S.
[04:44.360 --> 04:44.660]  citizens.
[04:44.740 --> 04:45.200]  You think?
[04:46.260 --> 04:46.920]  Wow.
[04:47.240 --> 04:50.780]  I mean, I saw this story, and I was blown away.
[04:51.020 --> 04:52.720]  This can't be real.
[04:52.940 --> 05:03.620]  They're actually thinking of using some of these corporations to do what the government can't do under the guise of, we're fighting extremism.
[05:03.800 --> 05:05.980]  We're fighting right-wing terrorism.
[05:06.260 --> 05:09.580]  Look, nobody wants to fight these things more than we do.
[05:09.700 --> 05:12.820]  But this, this ain't the way to do it.
[05:13.300 --> 05:14.960]  And I think we all know that.
[05:16.240 --> 05:18.620]  Alex, I'm curious, have you heard of this story?
[05:18.700 --> 05:21.500]  Because this is, this should be on the front page of every newspaper.
[05:22.940 --> 05:25.440]  I have not read that particular story.
[05:25.660 --> 05:32.260]  But what I would say is, I'm not entirely certain I agree with you, Emmanuel.
[05:32.540 --> 05:34.960]  I think it's good when we disagree sometimes about this.
[05:34.960 --> 05:54.040]  Because if what these private firms would be tracking are content that these individuals have posted online in some sort of public forum where others can see it, and it's not a private message, it's not a telephone conversation, it's not something that would require a wiretap or a warrant,
[05:54.280 --> 06:03.140]  then I frankly have no problem because there's no expectation of privacy at that particular, for that particular content that they're putting online.
[06:03.140 --> 06:11.700]  There are lots of different firms that are hoovering up all of this type of information via various public APIs of social media companies.
[06:13.000 --> 06:21.100]  For instance, I myself, I track a lot of extremist activity in the global domain name system and within the DNS.
[06:21.420 --> 06:29.320]  I mean, every day, I'm looking for extremist activity that relates to militia groups, extremist activity that relates to QAnon, and all these things.
[06:29.520 --> 06:32.680]  And look, they're doing this, they're putting it out there in a public record.
[06:32.680 --> 06:35.500]  And so I, as a private party, can track that.
[06:35.660 --> 06:37.200]  And there's nothing wrong with that.
[06:37.320 --> 06:46.300]  But okay, and you know, you know well what we're talking about right now, like the Department of Homeland Security, they're limited in how they can monitor citizens online without justification.
[06:46.860 --> 06:57.340]  And they're banned from activities like assuming false identities to gain access to private messaging apps that, say, the Proud Boys or Oath Keepers might be partaking in.
[06:57.340 --> 07:06.020]  Now, federal authorities can only browse through unprotected information on social media sites like Twitter and Facebook and other open online platforms.
[07:06.420 --> 07:21.580]  Now, a source familiar with the effort said it's not about decrypting data, but rather using outside entities who can legally access these private groups to gather large amounts of information that could help DHS identify key narratives as they emerge.
[07:21.580 --> 07:32.920]  Now, I know the FBI is involved in a lot of these investigations, but they need things called warrants to be able to search in various places that are not wide open to the public.
[07:33.240 --> 07:44.680]  And I just see a problem with bypassing all of that by, say, going to the companies themselves and having them turn over information on people that might be suspected of something.
[07:44.680 --> 07:57.240]  You know, what worries me about this is the massive amount of surveillance that all of a sudden the government could have access to that they did not have access to before.
[07:58.140 --> 08:04.680]  I mean, perhaps, but it seems like what they're trying to do is make the investigative route shorter here, right?
[08:04.700 --> 08:21.660]  Because if what you said is correct, that these private parties have lawful access to these particular channels, maybe they're going to be telegram channels or something like that, then it's quite possible that a federal agent, an FBI agent, or even a special agent from,
[08:21.740 --> 08:31.860]  let's say, you know, the Secret Service or some other law enforcement entity could also infiltrate that particular group, start hoovering up those particular messages, share them internally with the government without a warrant.
[08:32.040 --> 08:37.340]  So long as there's no expectation of privacy, a warrant isn't necessarily required, right?
[08:37.340 --> 08:44.100]  If it's not a home, think about the Fourth Amendment protects our persons, papers, effects, and anything in our home, right?
[08:44.320 --> 08:46.580]  That's the sacrosanct area here.
[08:47.760 --> 08:55.540]  Or if it relates to communications between two private parties, then the federal government would also need a warrant.
[08:55.680 --> 09:08.140]  So it seems like what they're doing here is using private entities to get access to places where a federal agent would be able to have access, but it would be difficult for them to infiltrate that particular group.
[09:08.320 --> 09:09.760]  They may not have those inroads.
[09:09.760 --> 09:13.820]  They may not have accounts on these particular forums or these websites.
[09:14.000 --> 09:24.040]  And so I don't necessarily see it as that problematic because we are not looking at private communications here, right?
[09:24.180 --> 09:38.000]  The other component, I think, of what the government is trying to do is access data that they would otherwise have lawful access to, perhaps through investigative means or through legal process that they wouldn't otherwise be able to reach.
[09:38.180 --> 09:42.980]  So, for instance, let's say it's a chat platform that's hosted in Switzerland.
[09:43.820 --> 09:52.380]  You know, they could go and get a warrant, but the Swiss entity may tell the federal government to go stuff it, you know, when handed with a U.S.
[09:52.460 --> 09:52.760]  warrant.
[09:52.760 --> 09:58.880]  You know, there are various or these bulletproof hosting companies as well that tend to stifle legal process.
[09:59.080 --> 10:05.920]  So I see them trying to use private parties to cover their investigative shortfalls.
[10:06.100 --> 10:14.140]  So long as they're not crossing over into areas where a warrant would otherwise be needed, I think that it's reasonable.
[10:14.500 --> 10:16.860]  But don't those shortfalls exist for a reason?
[10:18.240 --> 10:19.260]  Not necessarily.
[10:19.260 --> 10:30.800]  No, they exist because it's just problematic or difficult for, let's say, a brand new FBI agent without a persona to get into a Russian hacking forum, something like that.
[10:30.860 --> 10:32.460]  It's just, it makes it much more difficult.
[10:32.540 --> 10:47.100]  Whereas these private entities that already have these inroads into these communities that may have special personas that are built that are essentially cover personas, and then they're utilizing that type of access.
[10:47.440 --> 10:52.520]  But again, I haven't, I should caveat this because I'm talking a lot when I haven't read the article.
[10:52.780 --> 10:54.940]  Well, it's, yeah, it's an article on CNN.
[10:55.160 --> 11:00.180]  And by the way, my concern is for domestic spying, not so much international spying.
[11:00.180 --> 11:09.020]  But actually, DHS responded to the CNN story, and they seem a bit more concerned about it than you actually are, Alex.
[11:09.140 --> 11:20.040]  They say they're not partnering with private firms to surveil suspected domestic terrorist online, and it's blatantly false to suggest that the department is using outside firms to circumvent its legal limits.
[11:20.120 --> 11:23.660]  So they seem a little offended by the implication.
[11:23.940 --> 11:27.140]  Yeah, that's what I'm saying, right, is that they're not going around.
[11:27.280 --> 11:29.380]  They're not violating the law, right?
[11:29.380 --> 11:34.940]  So DHS or FBI or any of these agencies could go and do this themselves.
[11:35.220 --> 11:48.820]  So that's exactly what I'm saying here, is that they're not crossing over the limit and accessing information or data or communications, let's say intercepting communications, for which they would otherwise need a judicially authorized warrant.
[11:49.140 --> 11:49.600]  Go ahead, Rob.
[11:50.780 --> 12:03.160]  Yeah, the real trouble here connects with what we were saying earlier about Facebook and YouTube is that the idea that they would be transferring some of the investigative responsibility onto these private companies.
[12:04.460 --> 12:19.980]  We're already talking about how bad the private companies are at enforcing rules in the right manner when it involves like the 10 cents that somebody would make for a YouTube ad or, you know, we know that Facebook and Twitter are crap at keeping like the Nazis off and things like that.
[12:20.920 --> 12:22.680]  You know, they're bad at it.
[12:22.740 --> 12:25.060]  And the government is going, okay, you guys do it.
[12:25.680 --> 12:29.220]  Private industry is not going to do the right thing here, I don't think, by default.
[12:29.940 --> 12:35.680]  But, you know, and also when it comes to the DHS coming out and saying, oh, we're totally not doing something.
[12:35.860 --> 12:41.120]  I mean, when you're in the spying business, you don't always come out and admit to all the tools you're using.
[12:41.320 --> 12:42.660]  So, I don't know how...
[12:42.660 --> 12:54.600]  Well, those companies may be bad at keeping Nazis off, but they're good at keeping all kinds of data in their servers, data that the federal government does not have.
[12:55.200 --> 12:59.900]  Imagine, you know, all of your Facebook data, and we can say it's public facing, but it's not supposed to be.
[12:59.900 --> 13:09.960]  If you limit it to the people that you consider to be your friends, and all of a sudden Facebook shares it with the world, you know, that wasn't the understanding.
[13:10.380 --> 13:21.640]  And to suddenly open it up so that these companies like Google and Facebook and Twitter that have all this private information, and that's on us.
[13:21.660 --> 13:22.720]  That's on us for trusting them.
[13:23.360 --> 13:25.360]  That's something that I think is problematic.
[13:25.380 --> 13:33.900]  If all of a sudden the federal government, by extension, is able to get to that just by asking or by having the access granted to them.
[13:34.240 --> 13:34.740]  Kyle?
[13:34.740 --> 13:43.940]  Weren't there similar scenarios with telecommunications, specifically wireless providers providing tower data?
[13:44.140 --> 13:48.340]  I feel like the hacker community has seen this kind of action before.
[13:48.400 --> 13:57.440]  I know in red teaming sometimes, being able to, as a private entity, keep your activities outside of U.S.
[13:57.880 --> 14:02.900]  jurisdiction can sometimes help you perform your audit legally.
[14:02.900 --> 14:23.460]  And those types of tactics are not necessarily unusual, also leveraging and sort of, in this case, contracting private tech companies to do this kind of work, basically because they're already, they already have their hands on the information.
[14:24.240 --> 14:37.920]  Seems like, I don't know, not unlike what was done for the surveillance capitalism for creating dossiers of people to advertise to.
[14:38.120 --> 14:44.820]  But in this case, it's, you're expanding the amount of people that could be brought in.
[14:44.880 --> 14:59.220]  And I think that was the concern with the metadata or some of the telecommunications providers, being able to just give metadata or information as a, for things that otherwise would have needed a warrant.
[14:59.460 --> 15:06.760]  In this case, it's, we're just adapting one ability to another group or another subject.
[15:06.780 --> 15:11.580]  And I think the scope of that changing over time with administrations changing is also a concern.
[15:11.580 --> 15:24.100]  So basically, whenever that happens, it's fought, it's fought fiercely by people who, who care about privacy and freedom and things like that.
[15:24.360 --> 15:42.320]  But you know, we also have to look towards to last summer, and Trump's disastrous response to the riots in Portland, where the DHS actually collected all kinds of intelligence reports on journalists and, and, and private citizens, we've been down this road before,
[15:42.320 --> 15:44.020]  I don't think we want to go down it again.
[15:44.320 --> 15:44.820]  Go ahead, Alex.
[15:46.020 --> 15:46.520]  Yeah.
[15:47.600 --> 16:04.980]  One of the issues that I could see arising from this, despite my, you know, mild defense of the practice, I would say, you know, without having read the entirety of the article, would be that if private contractors are doing this on behalf of the government,
[16:05.300 --> 16:14.040]  those private contractors are going to be subject to confidentiality requirements in those particular contracts, probably nondisclosure agreements as well.
[16:14.380 --> 16:28.140]  And the, the platforms themselves are not going to have any idea about the number of investigations that have been launched by the federal government on their platform, and neither will we, the people, as well.
[16:29.020 --> 16:47.000]  This type of investigation and this type of data that would come from these private parties are not, therefore, going to be subject to the various transparency reports that platforms like Facebook and, and other companies like Google or YouTube, that they issue every year about how many requests they got from law enforcement,
[16:47.240 --> 16:52.860]  you know, using legal process, how many search warrants they executed, how many civil subpoenas they executed, etc.
[16:53.120 --> 17:03.640]  If all of this is done by way of private contractors, we're going to lose out on knowing exactly how active our governments are when it comes to investigating personas online.
[17:03.960 --> 17:06.600]  And I think that, that would be particularly problematic.
[17:06.640 --> 17:14.680]  And it gets again at the heart of the matter that we were discussing on the actual off the hook show, which is about transparency.
[17:15.240 --> 17:26.180]  And if we are expecting a greater level of transparency from these particular social media platforms, they're not going to be able to be transparent with us about this type of data if they don't have it in the first place.
[17:26.340 --> 17:27.000]  Exactly, yeah.
[17:27.140 --> 17:33.020]  I mean, we just, we just played a piece where somebody was told that Beethoven didn't belong to Beethoven anymore.
[17:33.360 --> 17:37.280]  And it was an algorithm, a computer saying this, and there was no refuting it.
[17:37.360 --> 17:40.060]  And there was no way to actually get a human to weigh in.
[17:40.200 --> 17:46.920]  Imagine that being the, the final word in, in cases of surveillance and, and all sorts of other things.
[17:47.080 --> 17:47.960]  You know, we're talking about evil.
[17:48.120 --> 17:49.080]  We're talking about the evils of government.
[17:49.240 --> 17:51.300]  We're talking about the evils of, of massive corporations.
[17:51.740 --> 17:56.520]  Pairing the two together, I don't think it ever works in a, in a good way for average people.
[17:56.700 --> 18:03.760]  I know there are issues with domestic terrorism and, and all sorts of hate speech out there.
[18:04.400 --> 18:08.180]  I think we can, we can, we can tackle that with what we've got.
[18:08.180 --> 18:16.240]  I don't think we need to have more as far as, uh, surveillance capabilities or, or partnerships between massive entities.
[18:16.240 --> 18:20.980]  I think we as people are well-suited to fight this kind of thing.
[18:21.440 --> 18:35.480]  We, we underestimate ourselves so much as individuals and as collectives, the amount that we can do if we just band together and, and, and do things, you know, in, in, in, in Europe, they just, they just defeated this thing called the Super League.
[18:35.620 --> 18:36.880]  You guys following this story?
[18:37.300 --> 18:47.620]  Basically the, the, the richest teams in football wanted to split away from the hundreds and thousands of other teams and just kind of keep all the money for themselves and not have to compete against anyone else.
[18:47.980 --> 18:59.840]  The magic, the magic of, uh, of football, not going to go on sports for too long here, but the magic of football in Europe and particularly in England is that theoretically, at least the smallest team can play the biggest team.
[19:00.040 --> 19:01.700]  The smallest team can beat the biggest team.
[19:01.820 --> 19:02.860]  The smallest team can advance.
[19:03.080 --> 19:04.360]  They can become champions.
[19:04.640 --> 19:07.040]  It never happens, but it's theoretically possible.
[19:07.260 --> 19:11.340]  And that it's a dream that hope that is part of the magic of the game.
[19:11.560 --> 19:23.960]  And what these people led by, um, American owners, I should say, who don't understand the sport, they wanted to say, uh, no, you know, let's, let's have all the big teams be the ones on TV all the time.
[19:24.060 --> 19:26.980]  Let's have them get all the profits year after year.
[19:26.980 --> 19:30.920]  We'll just have about 15 teams and, and, and that's it.
[19:30.920 --> 19:35.360]  The fans reacted against that was such, such passion.
[19:35.720 --> 19:38.360]  Uh, and, and that was enough.
[19:38.560 --> 19:39.220]  That was enough.
[19:39.400 --> 19:45.740]  Just getting out there onto the streets, demanding that their game not be destroyed in America.
[19:46.100 --> 19:56.740]  We don't seem to know that we can do that, that we can, we can actually go out there and voice our opinion loudly, firmly, and for a long, long time.
[19:56.900 --> 19:58.500]  And that is what makes a difference.
[19:58.500 --> 19:59.840]  That's what gets results.
[20:00.500 --> 20:08.420]  So we need to be able to do things like that in, in, uh, cases involving domestic terrorism or government overreach or corporate overreach.
[20:09.640 --> 20:10.460]  People matter.
[20:10.740 --> 20:11.500]  Individuals matter.
[20:12.100 --> 20:13.940]  And we're always told that they don't.
[20:14.040 --> 20:15.400]  We're always told that we don't count.
[20:15.560 --> 20:16.600]  That's not going to make a difference.
[20:16.980 --> 20:18.240]  Don't listen to those people.
[20:22.660 --> 20:23.740]  I couldn't agree more.
[20:24.380 --> 20:27.780]  And you know, the, the, the super league thing, I think is, look, it's a great example, right?
[20:27.900 --> 20:40.260]  I mean that these teams, they were basically trying to take the competition out of competition and not, not only just the people, but the, once the people rose up, the politicians rose up, the other teams, uh, rose up about this.
[20:40.320 --> 20:46.900]  It was a, it was a landslide of support to dismantle that, that idiotic idea.
[20:47.440 --> 20:54.760]  Um, and it was an idiotic idea that would have made a lot of people a lot of money and it was defeated pretty squarely and pretty quickly.
[20:55.720 --> 20:56.960]  Um, yeah.
[20:57.060 --> 21:01.100]  And imagine all the idiotic ideas that we are faced with every single day.
[21:01.260 --> 21:04.280]  You turn on the news and, oh my God, I can't believe what they're doing.
[21:04.540 --> 21:05.800]  And they get away with it.
[21:05.940 --> 21:06.980]  Why did they get away with it?
[21:07.020 --> 21:08.880]  Why did they get away with, with the voter suppression?
[21:09.300 --> 21:18.120]  Why are they get away with, uh, with, with passing all these anti-abortion laws and, and, and just all these things that make it seem like we're moving backwards at such a fast rate.
[21:18.120 --> 21:22.500]  They get away with it because all we do is express outrage and that's not enough.
[21:22.640 --> 21:23.320]  That's not enough.
[21:23.440 --> 21:24.360]  Just express the outrage.
[21:24.500 --> 21:26.280]  You have to act as well.
[21:26.480 --> 21:30.320]  And I, I just think we need to awaken that in ourselves.
[21:30.580 --> 21:34.780]  I was watching really early, uh, some of the financial channels.
[21:34.880 --> 21:39.520]  I like doing this cause they have such a perverted sense of, uh, up and down.
[21:39.920 --> 21:40.860]  It's a disturbing habit, Kyle.
[21:41.200 --> 21:46.120]  Eh, it's sick, but they were so, uh, how do I want to say it?
[21:46.300 --> 21:57.640]  Um, uh, flabbergasted at the, the possibility that Facebook would, um, would not have this overturned, that it would be upheld.
[21:57.940 --> 22:05.080]  And, uh, a couple minutes later, it was the, the banner and the Chiron was, uh, Facebook fail.
[22:05.520 --> 22:12.040]  And, and I realized they're all upset because they have money in this.
[22:12.220 --> 22:14.380]  They have been making a ton of money.
[22:14.640 --> 22:24.380]  Shareholders have been making a lot of money and they're mad because this might bring the stock down from, I don't know what it is.
[22:24.480 --> 22:25.480]  It's in the thousands or hundreds.
[22:25.600 --> 22:26.060]  Who cares?
[22:26.180 --> 22:26.540]  Who cares?
[22:26.740 --> 22:32.500]  It'll bring it down a dollar or five or whatever, and they'll lose a margin of their investment.
[22:32.860 --> 22:33.860]  That's it.
[22:33.980 --> 22:35.030]  It's so petty.
[22:35.030 --> 22:36.150]  They're willing.
[22:36.450 --> 22:42.510]  And, and they're so confident as they're like shocked and stunned and like, Oh, we just heard the news.
[22:42.650 --> 22:44.190]  This is like 10 in the morning or whatever.
[22:45.350 --> 22:56.970]  Really beside themselves over just how, where Facebook went wrong and how they're just, uh, you know, failing in being Facebook.
[22:57.230 --> 23:01.450]  And I realized failing them, failing their bottom line.
[23:01.450 --> 23:01.690]  Right.
[23:01.970 --> 23:19.790]  And, and I, it's, it was hilarious to watch because to me, this, this wasn't a hard take to compare the subject of this to anyone else requires comparing presidents of other countries.
[23:19.790 --> 23:24.310]  Cause we've not had presidents violate like this ever.
[23:24.370 --> 23:33.650]  And I think that that is so easily forgotten when we start getting into the nuance of, you know, tech providence in this, in this country.
[23:33.650 --> 23:35.110]  It's so silly.
[23:35.310 --> 23:45.230]  And as I said, uh, childish, why are we consumed with the babysitters, uh, telling Facebook they can't have their dessert tonight or something?
[23:45.230 --> 23:50.930]  It's, it's completely idiotic and insulting to our collective intelligence.
[23:50.930 --> 24:06.730]  And I just want to put that in perspective that, you know, even in being told to do the right thing, the shareholders, once again, who've been dictating so much, think this is a failing because they're going to lose what, $3 or whatever margin.
[24:07.010 --> 24:09.090]  You know, you touch upon an amazing point here.
[24:09.330 --> 24:17.470]  A really important point that they make a ton of money from all this hatred and, and vitriol that's, that's out there.
[24:17.710 --> 24:24.190]  You know, what, what, why do you think Trump was on Twitter for so long spouting forth all his craziness and nonsense?
[24:24.550 --> 24:28.190]  Because that's all people were talking about and Twitter made money.
[24:28.330 --> 24:29.050]  Facebook made money.
[24:29.130 --> 24:36.710]  They all made a ton of money, but it got to the point where people were fed up the insurrection on January 6th.
[24:36.950 --> 24:38.950]  That was the turning point.
[24:39.090 --> 24:40.270]  It wasn't Facebook.
[24:40.470 --> 24:42.170]  It wasn't Twitter that said, Oh, we've had enough.
[24:42.310 --> 24:50.570]  No, it was them listening to all of their users who were demanding that this end already because they were fueling it.
[24:50.570 --> 24:52.210]  That is what happened.
[24:52.650 --> 24:54.190]  You cannot refute this.
[24:54.310 --> 24:55.990]  That is, that is how it played out.
[24:56.130 --> 25:00.510]  So, you know, Facebook doesn't get brownie points from me for, for doing the right thing.
[25:00.710 --> 25:07.210]  They at least finally, finally listened to what people were saying and did the minimum.
[25:07.630 --> 25:11.430]  And now they're questioning themselves and they're being questioned over and over again.
[25:12.270 --> 25:18.430]  But, um, companies have the right to, uh, to, to decide who gets to play in the playground.
[25:19.030 --> 25:24.730]  And, um, that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be tons of competition and, and, uh, alternatives and things like that.
[25:24.810 --> 25:36.670]  But again, you know, if, um, if we're talking about, about, uh, hate speech and, uh, um, neo-Nazis and things like that, they're going to find trouble at every turn.
[25:36.830 --> 25:38.450]  They're going to find trouble with a platform.
[25:38.610 --> 25:40.070]  They're going to find trouble with a provider.
[25:40.390 --> 25:43.950]  They're going to find opposition at every step.
[25:43.950 --> 25:45.330]  And that is on us.
[25:45.450 --> 25:49.770]  That's on nobody, but individual We are the ones that did this.
[25:50.030 --> 26:00.330]  So we should own it and continue to make sure that this kind of hatred doesn't dictate the national dialogue like it has been.
[26:02.030 --> 26:02.890]  Alex, go ahead.
[26:02.890 --> 26:03.950]  Sure.
[26:04.310 --> 26:05.310]  Just chiming in.
[26:05.630 --> 26:15.050]  I don't know if you realize how ridiculous one of the statements that you just said sounded, which is the tipping point was the insurrection.
[26:15.630 --> 26:17.010]  I mean, come on.
[26:17.150 --> 26:21.150]  Is that what it took for these platforms to make a move here?
[26:21.150 --> 26:43.010]  We sat through four years of Trump spouting disinformation, racist and vile hatred, trying to discredit the media, news organizations that are protected by, you know, not some minor amendment down the road, you know, like the Fourth Amendment, the First Amendment of the goddamn Constitution.
[26:43.730 --> 26:48.990]  I mean, so, yeah, the tipping point was the insurrection, but goddammit, it shouldn't have taken that long.
[26:48.990 --> 26:56.190]  No, but it could have been a lot earlier, I think, if we had been louder and more in certain people's faces.
[26:56.450 --> 26:57.730]  Hey, we have a phone call, I think.
[26:57.910 --> 26:58.670]  No, we don't have a phone call?
[26:58.850 --> 26:59.270]  What's going on?
[26:59.350 --> 27:01.490]  It didn't come in on the special number.
[27:01.610 --> 27:04.310]  I think it may have been a different...
[27:04.310 --> 27:05.130]  It's coming in again.
[27:05.490 --> 27:07.130]  So that's the phone that's ringing.
[27:09.350 --> 27:11.150]  All right, we have a phone call this time.
[27:11.290 --> 27:12.230]  Let's see if anybody's out there.
[27:12.410 --> 27:12.810]  Good evening.
[27:14.530 --> 27:15.450]  Is anyone out there?
[27:18.030 --> 27:18.710]  All right.
[27:19.250 --> 27:19.930]  Is anyone out there?
[27:20.230 --> 27:21.030]  Oh, there we go.
[27:21.210 --> 27:21.290]  Okay.
[27:21.850 --> 27:22.290]  How are you doing?
[27:23.550 --> 27:24.530]  All right, it's Bobcat.
[27:25.390 --> 27:26.050]  What's up?
[27:28.270 --> 27:28.750]  Okay.
[27:28.750 --> 27:37.490]  Very important things you've been talking about today, but I want everyone to know you can walk into many drugstores and get your vaccination.
[27:38.170 --> 27:39.370]  Just walking in.
[27:39.850 --> 27:40.890]  No questions asked.
[27:40.950 --> 27:41.490]  That is correct.
[27:41.790 --> 27:45.330]  Can you walk into a 24-hour CVS and get your vaccine at 3 in the morning?
[27:46.210 --> 27:54.550]  I don't know if you can do that, but I know that the nearest chain drugstore near me absolutely will do it when they're open.
[27:54.930 --> 27:55.510]  That's awesome.
[27:55.790 --> 27:58.730]  So it's the most important thing we can do right now.
[27:58.830 --> 28:04.390]  I mean, it's terrible that people can do fake DMCA takedowns on YouTube.
[28:04.390 --> 28:13.770]  And there's a huge history about this going over 15 years, but everybody needs to get their vaccines right now.
[28:14.090 --> 28:14.510]  Absolutely.
[28:14.790 --> 28:15.530]  Could not agree more.
[28:15.530 --> 28:17.110]  Okay.
[28:18.560 --> 28:28.630]  Someday we can talk about the fake DMCA takedowns that inspired the entire Gamergate thing.
[28:32.230 --> 28:35.790]  But you're going to sign off soon, so thank you and good night.
[28:35.930 --> 28:36.110]  All right.
[28:36.150 --> 28:36.690]  Thanks for your call.
[28:38.070 --> 28:40.070]  And our phone number... I forgot about the phone number.
[28:40.630 --> 28:42.690]  It's 802-321-4225.
[28:43.010 --> 28:44.270]  802-321-HACK.
[28:45.490 --> 28:47.890]  And, yes, you know, you can call if you're not new.
[28:48.070 --> 28:49.630]  You can call if you're not in an exotic place.
[28:49.690 --> 28:50.930]  You can call from, you know...
[28:50.930 --> 28:52.210]  We want to hear from our listeners, obviously.
[28:52.410 --> 28:52.930]  Rob, go ahead.
[28:53.790 --> 28:58.170]  And also, thanks to our pal at Lucky225, you can call us toll-free if you want.
[28:58.650 --> 29:01.470]  That's 833-755-2600.
[29:01.750 --> 29:02.230]  That's right.
[29:02.290 --> 29:04.250]  Those numbers don't cost anything, somehow.
[29:05.030 --> 29:05.990]  833 is magic.
[29:08.750 --> 29:09.710]  Is that all you had to say?
[29:09.770 --> 29:10.950]  I thought you were going to say something more.
[29:11.110 --> 29:11.450]  That's it?
[29:11.970 --> 29:13.910]  No, I just like talking about free stuff.
[29:14.370 --> 29:16.710]  But, yeah, I mean, Bobcat's right, of course.
[29:16.910 --> 29:18.290]  You know, get your vaccinations.
[29:18.570 --> 29:20.550]  Encourage the people around you to get your vaccinations.
[29:21.130 --> 29:32.630]  Because at this point, and I'm noticing this, there are TV ads going on and ads on streaming services now, if you're in the city, by the city, in treating people, please come get your vaccinations.
[29:32.910 --> 29:33.890]  You know, we need this to happen.
[29:34.110 --> 29:35.310]  We all need this to happen.
[29:35.770 --> 29:37.990]  And that starts with us.
[29:38.110 --> 29:42.630]  So if you haven't gotten yours yet, get yours and talk to the people around you about getting theirs.
[29:42.850 --> 29:46.750]  And not only get your vaccination, but talk about why you did it.
[29:48.910 --> 29:57.170]  And I think that's still a really important part of the process, because, you know, I did it because I wanted to get 5G in my head.
[29:57.550 --> 29:58.470]  That's why I did it.
[30:01.390 --> 30:01.930]  All right.
[30:02.510 --> 30:10.370]  And, you know, what would make me happy is if somebody wrote to us at OTH at 2600.com and said, I wasn't going to get the vaccine.
[30:10.510 --> 30:12.870]  I listened to you guys, and I was convinced to get the vaccine.
[30:12.870 --> 30:16.270]  And not only did I get the vaccine, but I told somebody else to get the vaccine.
[30:16.390 --> 30:21.370]  That would make me so happy, because that would make me feel like we're actually getting something accomplished.
[30:21.890 --> 30:23.910]  I believe we have Bobson on the phone.
[30:24.830 --> 30:25.590]  Yes, sir.
[30:26.030 --> 30:27.130]  See, we have caller ID.
[30:27.130 --> 30:28.090]  We can tell now.
[30:28.990 --> 30:33.530]  And you have this weird bunch of numbers because you're calling from Bulgaria.
[30:35.310 --> 30:37.030]  That's not a weird bunch.
[30:37.030 --> 30:40.130]  It just starts with a certain country code.
[30:40.290 --> 30:41.130]  Yeah, weird is good.
[30:41.130 --> 30:42.410]  It's weird for us.
[30:44.150 --> 30:44.870]  Oh, wow.
[30:44.970 --> 30:49.450]  It doesn't start with plus one, something, zero, something else, you mean?
[30:49.530 --> 30:52.750]  It started with a three, believe it or not, but it's not important.
[30:53.130 --> 31:00.210]  Well, I know it starts with a three, but is the problem that it doesn't start with a plus one on your end?
[31:00.430 --> 31:03.270]  No, we don't have the plus one show up and call our ID.
[31:03.370 --> 31:05.070]  I wish we did, because that would make more sense.
[31:05.190 --> 31:05.650]  Oh, okay.
[31:05.650 --> 31:07.670]  But listen, this is boring to most of the listeners.
[31:08.110 --> 31:09.510]  Bobson, have you gotten your vaccine?
[31:11.130 --> 31:13.990]  We already spoke about it in the previous week.
[31:14.090 --> 31:15.590]  I can't keep track of everybody.
[31:16.230 --> 31:17.290]  So you did get it?
[31:18.430 --> 31:19.110]  Yes, sir.
[31:19.310 --> 31:19.770]  All right, great.
[31:20.070 --> 31:20.530]  Good for you.
[31:22.270 --> 31:23.150]  What's on your mind?
[31:23.310 --> 31:24.030]  You were...
[31:24.830 --> 31:38.450]  After we spoke about it, you were mentioning how everybody you know seems to be vaccinated or something like that, so I felt as if I made a contribution to your view of the situation.
[31:38.450 --> 31:41.990]  Well, I'm sorry for not remembering, but I'll remember now.
[31:41.990 --> 31:44.930]  I'm going to write it down, in fact, that Bobson got his vaccine.
[31:45.190 --> 31:47.750]  Well, it's why we keep asking, because we're running out of people.
[31:48.150 --> 31:49.550]  Everybody seems to have gotten it.
[31:49.630 --> 31:50.950]  Yeah, who are these people not getting it?
[31:50.950 --> 31:53.470]  You have to keep finding more people that aren't getting it.
[31:53.470 --> 31:56.910]  Yeah, do we know people who haven't gotten it in our circle?
[31:57.150 --> 32:05.910]  I like what I saw on your Twitter about 280 people a year ago and 37 people this year.
[32:06.030 --> 32:07.170]  I'm glad you reminded me of that.
[32:07.170 --> 32:15.870]  Yeah, it was a year ago, I believe Monday, that 280 people in New York State died from COVID-19.
[32:15.870 --> 32:20.310]  And on Monday, one year later, that number was only 37.
[32:20.710 --> 32:24.910]  And that really shows that vaccines are working.
[32:25.310 --> 32:33.450]  But when that number is zero, that's when we will say, okay, we're at the stage now where this is no longer a threat.
[32:33.750 --> 32:36.950]  So those numbers were statewide, not citywide?
[32:37.190 --> 32:37.710]  Just statewide.
[32:38.930 --> 32:39.450]  Statewide.
[32:39.590 --> 32:39.730]  Yeah.
[32:39.750 --> 32:39.950]  Okay.
[32:40.390 --> 32:40.990]  Thank you for that.
[32:40.990 --> 32:42.170]  And not nationwide either.
[32:42.170 --> 32:44.290]  That was, you know, but we still have...
[32:44.290 --> 32:49.350]  Well, nationwide would have been a bit far-fetched.
[32:49.670 --> 32:50.010]  Yeah.
[32:50.130 --> 32:56.630]  I mean, we were in a terrible state a year ago because, you know, we were in a situation where it wasn't being taken seriously.
[32:57.090 --> 33:03.990]  And we can see that being played out now in Brazil and in India, where the death toll is reaching horrible heights.
[33:04.510 --> 33:08.350]  And that is going to affect the planet in general.
[33:08.350 --> 33:14.330]  I mean, we're doing well here now, but it's not going to count for much if the rest of the world isn't doing well, in addition.
[33:15.370 --> 33:15.630]  Yeah.
[33:16.010 --> 33:24.250]  The patent situation seems to have been resolved reasonably, or am I just...
[33:25.150 --> 33:26.130]  Which has been...
[33:26.130 --> 33:28.410]  Hearing things that are not...
[33:28.410 --> 33:29.950]  What's been resolved?
[33:31.330 --> 33:33.430]  The intellectual property thing.
[33:33.430 --> 33:33.730]  Oh, yeah.
[33:33.950 --> 33:35.410]  As of today, the U.S.
[33:35.670 --> 33:38.230]  People to produce it who don't own the patents.
[33:38.470 --> 33:38.650]  Right.
[33:38.710 --> 33:39.130]  The U.S.
[33:39.170 --> 33:40.730]  is on board with that as of today.
[33:40.730 --> 33:42.550]  So that's a great thing to hear.
[33:44.090 --> 33:45.810]  Oh, that's the only...
[33:45.810 --> 33:48.250]  That's today's news that the U.S.
[33:48.270 --> 33:52.550]  is pushing for that policy.
[33:53.310 --> 33:53.750]  Yeah.
[33:53.870 --> 33:56.910]  And supposedly the EU is not yet on board, but hopefully they get on board.
[33:57.670 --> 33:58.730]  It's really critical.
[33:58.890 --> 33:59.430]  I hope so.
[33:59.430 --> 34:17.730]  Yeah, there's several, I think, I want to say 10, maybe a little less than 10 facilities in India that were ready to or could be adapted quickly to come online and produce a vaccine to ramp up vaccinations in the midst of their increased infections there.
[34:17.910 --> 34:21.750]  So those examples are the kinds of scenarios where...
[34:21.750 --> 34:24.530]  That's a need to happen situation.
[34:24.530 --> 34:34.630]  If they're ready to go, this is the kind of moment where you kind of put that profit-seeking aside and you get out to India and build some vaccine factories.
[34:34.970 --> 34:45.810]  And nothing spells out how detrimental it is to have a populist in charge who questions science and thinks that he's above everything.
[34:47.790 --> 34:50.890]  Nothing demonstrates how bad that is than a pandemic.
[34:51.290 --> 34:53.770]  And we've seen that happen with Bolsonaro.
[34:53.770 --> 34:55.470]  We've seen that happen in India.
[34:55.490 --> 34:58.170]  And, of course, we saw it happening last year here.
[34:58.810 --> 35:02.690]  Boy, you know, I shudder to think where we might have been.
[35:03.150 --> 35:04.930]  You know, India could have been us.
[35:05.190 --> 35:15.310]  And the fact that we went through a whole year and it still happened to these countries where the leadership wasn't taking it seriously enough shows you how dangerous this thing still is.
[35:18.970 --> 35:39.170]  There was some weird news that was mentioned on BBC today about someone who was Malian and she gave birth to nine babies at the same time.
[35:39.730 --> 35:42.990]  Okay, I'm not sure why you're bringing that up, but that sounds fascinating.
[35:42.990 --> 35:50.810]  No, because it's only the third recorded case of something like that.
[35:50.850 --> 35:52.830]  Yeah, what do you call it?
[35:52.990 --> 35:54.090]  They're not septuplets.
[35:54.250 --> 35:54.930]  They're not octuplets.
[35:55.030 --> 35:55.950]  What in God's name are they?
[35:57.230 --> 36:00.150]  Non-uplets, I think, is the term.
[36:00.690 --> 36:01.270]  Is that...
[36:01.270 --> 36:02.250]  Rob, you're nodding.
[36:02.270 --> 36:02.730]  Is that true?
[36:03.990 --> 36:08.030]  Yeah, in the Latin-based numbering scheme we use, it's non-uplets, I think.
[36:08.250 --> 36:08.750]  Non-uplets.
[36:08.750 --> 36:09.410]  Or non-tuplets.
[36:09.870 --> 36:11.290]  That's a great name for a band.
[36:11.870 --> 36:13.390]  And it would have to have nine people in it.
[36:15.070 --> 36:16.170]  It's indeed non-uplets.
[36:16.170 --> 36:26.090]  Imagine if the kids, if the kids that were born yesterday or today, grow up to be a huge band from Mali or...
[36:26.090 --> 36:32.430]  They were born in Morocco because the mother was transported to a facility.
[36:32.650 --> 36:33.070]  You think?
[36:34.310 --> 36:34.890]  Wow.
[36:35.130 --> 36:36.170]  Slightly high risk?
[36:36.390 --> 36:38.510]  Yeah, I think that probably was a good idea.
[36:38.510 --> 36:40.710]  Well, they've got a reality show ready for them.
[36:43.170 --> 36:45.290]  So, hopefully they all make it.
[36:45.430 --> 36:49.150]  And it's interesting, but kind of strange.
[36:49.390 --> 36:51.910]  I fear we're straying a little bit from our topic.
[36:52.030 --> 36:54.190]  So, Bob, I'm going to ask, is there anything else that you'd like to close with?
[36:56.430 --> 37:07.090]  Well, I hope that it's not too long before things return post-pandemic.
[37:09.110 --> 37:14.650]  But we need the word from the WHO that it's over at some point.
[37:15.130 --> 37:16.830]  I hope it doesn't take too long.
[37:17.310 --> 37:21.110]  I'm hoping for that as well, that we'll see each other at a HACA conference sometime soon.
[37:22.710 --> 37:23.390]  Oh, yeah.
[37:23.750 --> 37:31.310]  That would be something to look forward to, I guess.
[37:31.570 --> 37:33.090]  Okay, well, listen, you get some sleep now.
[37:33.210 --> 37:34.670]  It's, what, three in the morning over there, right?
[37:36.010 --> 37:43.270]  Well, no, it's after, wait, two to three is the off-the-hook time.
[37:43.450 --> 37:45.330]  So, yeah, three to four is...
[37:45.330 --> 37:47.650]  Is that how you tell time by the radio show?
[37:48.210 --> 37:49.990]  Most people have a clock that they look at.
[37:50.490 --> 37:55.790]  Well, I have some timekeeping devices that I make use of occasionally.
[37:55.970 --> 37:56.630]  That's good.
[37:57.050 --> 37:57.890]  Good for you.
[37:58.030 --> 37:58.410]  Good for you.
[37:58.670 --> 37:59.830]  Embrace the modern era.
[38:00.650 --> 38:02.190]  Bobson, always good to hear your voice.
[38:02.190 --> 38:05.130]  Thanks, stay well, and we hope to see you soon.
[38:05.210 --> 38:05.370]  You too.
[38:06.390 --> 38:07.330]  Have a great night.
[38:07.810 --> 38:08.350]  Take care.
[38:08.590 --> 38:08.830]  Bye.
[38:10.230 --> 38:11.790]  Alex, looks like you wanted to say something there.
[38:12.530 --> 38:12.970]  Yeah.
[38:13.170 --> 38:14.670]  Always great to have Bobson on.
[38:14.670 --> 38:15.050]  Isn't it?
[38:15.310 --> 38:22.130]  You know, I want to do a show at a different time, like 12 hours from now, because when he's awake, you cannot stop him.
[38:22.270 --> 38:23.650]  He's bouncing around.
[38:23.770 --> 38:24.270]  He's singing.
[38:24.270 --> 38:26.610]  Sometimes you can't keep up.
[38:26.710 --> 38:30.050]  And we always hear him when it's about three in the morning, his time.
[38:30.190 --> 38:32.750]  So he always sounds tired, but that's not who he is.
[38:32.870 --> 38:33.770]  Yeah, you wouldn't recognize him.
[38:34.270 --> 38:35.730]  Oh, it's amazing.
[38:35.870 --> 38:43.990]  But I'm glad that he called, and I'm also glad that he led us over to the issue of what's happening over in India and other parts of the world.
[38:43.990 --> 38:47.050]  And I think it does, indeed, you know, tie back to the IP issues.
[38:47.330 --> 39:03.750]  And Kyle, you know, you said something, too, which was interesting because, you know, talking about India manufacturing vaccines, getting this capacity up, the ironic thing about India right now is they're the country that's suffering the most from the pandemic,
[39:03.750 --> 39:07.330]  but they are also the country that manufactures the most vaccines.
[39:08.010 --> 39:12.810]  They have the greatest manufacturing capacity for these vaccines right now, but they're exporting all of them.
[39:12.810 --> 39:36.630]  And it was this hubris that they had based off of Modi, who basically told the population that they were through the worst of it, they were done with this, they somehow escaped this relatively easily, and that, you know, it was okay to, you know, send thousands of people or tens of thousands of people together in the Gengis to have these religious ceremonies for people in close contact,
[39:36.630 --> 39:41.370]  and they became these super spreader events, and it really could affect the rest of the world.
[39:41.370 --> 40:03.450]  So, suspending intellectual property rights, absolutely, I think it's going to enrage a lot of the pharmaceutical companies, but on the other hand as well, and that's where I think Kyle's point comes in, is that I do think that these... there is capacity that needs to be built for the creation of generic drugs based on patents that don't belong to the pharmaceutical industry,
[40:03.690 --> 40:05.550]  but belong to the United States government.
[40:05.990 --> 40:23.470]  Because I think there are certain patents, one patent I believe is known as the 070 patent, which has to do with identifying and stabilizing the coronavirus spike, which is one of the first steps in the vaccine process.
[40:23.470 --> 40:33.310]  I know that the the Moderna vaccine, the mRNA identification, relies on this, and a lot of the other vaccines will rely on patents that actually belong to the United States government.
[40:33.630 --> 40:34.390]  So the U.S.
[40:34.490 --> 40:42.390]  Trade Representative, Catherine Tai, who's been out there promoting this and saying, yes, this is what we believe now, we want intellectual property rights to be suspended.
[40:42.830 --> 40:55.330]  Well, they can do that very easily with regard to their own patents and allow these generic drug manufacturers, allow these pharmaceutical companies in other countries to increase their capacity to build these generics around that.
[40:55.470 --> 41:00.070]  And I would certainly hope that our pharmaceutical industry would help them do that.
[41:00.450 --> 41:10.210]  You know, anecdotally as well, I'll tell you, other parts of the world that we think should be doing well, advanced countries in Africa, like South Africa.
[41:10.470 --> 41:18.030]  I have a colleague that I speak with almost every day, whose mother is in South Africa, and she's in her 90s.
[41:18.170 --> 41:19.930]  She still hasn't been vaccinated.
[41:20.110 --> 41:23.170]  She can't get an appointment for even her first vaccine.
[41:23.830 --> 41:27.790]  And she's not in some rural part of South Africa.
[41:28.430 --> 41:33.650]  It's just incredibly difficult to find these vaccines in other parts of the world.
[41:33.870 --> 41:40.670]  Whereas we're so lucky here, like we were just talking about, you can go into a CVS and get vaccinated for several weeks now.
[41:40.870 --> 41:42.350]  You don't need an appointment in New York City.
[41:43.290 --> 41:45.290]  So there is a huge disparity here.
[41:45.490 --> 41:54.070]  We're never going to get through this thing if we allow variants to, uh, or mutations to, to occur, which would then allow variants to originate.
[41:54.390 --> 41:58.610]  Uh, we're going to be, it's going to be, this virus is going to be like a yo-yo unless we have a global effort.
[41:59.370 --> 42:02.050]  I think, uh, Modi said that they conquered it.
[42:02.270 --> 42:10.030]  And then, um, months or weeks later, it was like a monster returning or something, something like that, or a beast of some sort.
[42:10.190 --> 42:11.570]  He'll have to build a bigger statue.
[42:11.770 --> 42:18.610]  I don't know what he, but in the, in the, in the intervening weeks, he went to campaign rallies as we, we indicated.
[42:18.650 --> 42:20.290]  I think the people are going to turn on him.
[42:20.490 --> 42:24.470]  I really hope they do because he is the reason this is happening.
[42:25.090 --> 42:27.450]  And, uh, we can't tolerate that kind of thing.
[42:27.610 --> 42:28.550]  We can't tolerate it.
[42:28.610 --> 42:30.110]  People deserve so much better than that.
[42:30.210 --> 42:31.090]  People deserve the truth.
[42:31.650 --> 42:38.010]  People don't deserve, uh, this anti-science rhetoric that, uh, we've been through for centuries.
[42:38.010 --> 42:40.330]  You know, we, we should know better by now.
[42:40.490 --> 42:58.530]  One thing I'm hearing in the discussion and it kind of comes out is that the, the more we head this off and the more people are around, the more opportunities there will be in the future to, um, build on this platform and have other drugs and vaccines to manufacture and make money.
[42:58.550 --> 43:04.430]  But if we don't get through it, there won't be anybody around to, uh, to, uh, have as a customer.
[43:04.710 --> 43:23.330]  So let's put things into scope and, and, uh, near and short-term goals should be reasonable and rational, not like, uh, something that acts as though we hadn't just been through an enormous, uh, cataclysmic human event in, in history.
[43:23.550 --> 43:28.570]  The thing to remember is that nobody loses by ending the pandemic.
[43:28.850 --> 43:29.550]  All right.
[43:29.630 --> 43:31.430]  The pandemic is wiped out.
[43:32.390 --> 43:33.430]  Everybody wins.
[43:33.910 --> 43:40.290]  So let's not act like, uh, it's, it's something, but I'm pro pandemic and you're pro vaccine.
[43:40.490 --> 43:41.930]  That's how it's appearing.
[43:41.930 --> 43:51.490]  If you, if you watch the, the cable news channels that have to have the conflict, much like the social media networks, that seems to be the argument makes absolutely no sense.
[43:51.730 --> 43:53.510]  We all want to survive.
[43:53.510 --> 43:55.290]  We all want this thing gone.
[43:55.730 --> 44:11.230]  And, uh, we have to work together to do that because if we continue to, um, uh, in this country, not get the vaccine in, in, in greater numbers and reach a certain plateau, then we're basically saying, okay, you know, we'll see you next year.
[44:11.390 --> 44:25.890]  We're going to have to get this vaccine every single year, probably for the rest of our lives, or we can double down and wipe it off the face of the earth, like smallpox, like polio, which I don't think is completely wiped away, but you get my point.
[44:26.810 --> 44:27.250]  All right.
[44:27.350 --> 44:28.610]  Um, our phone lines are open.
[44:28.850 --> 44:36.350]  802-321-4225-802-321-HACK or 833-755-2600 is our toll free version of that.
[44:36.890 --> 44:42.470]  Uh, I'd like to hear from our listeners and, um, uh, your opinions, your thoughts, your experiences, things like that.
[44:42.570 --> 44:43.570]  We're only out for a few more minutes.
[44:44.230 --> 44:47.870]  And of course you can always write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[44:47.970 --> 44:53.470]  If you insist on using Twitter, you can tweet at us, Hacker Radio Show is our ID there.
[44:54.870 --> 44:57.050]  Um, yeah, uh, Rob, go ahead.
[44:58.330 --> 44:58.730]  Yeah.
[44:58.890 --> 45:09.870]  I, I just, I despair at the fact that, uh, the pandemic seems to have been politicized into a thing that people are taking sides on, um, where you only believe it if you're on the side that believes it.
[45:09.950 --> 45:15.670]  And you don't believe it if you're on the side that doesn't believe it because, you know, science doesn't care about your feelings or your party affiliations.
[45:16.110 --> 45:24.810]  And, uh, and just, we all need to do a lot of growing up just as a society, if we're, if we're actually going to come together in any, in any, uh, meaningful way.
[45:24.950 --> 45:41.030]  But the fact that we've let ourselves be divided and, uh, be, you know, split up and, uh, and in raids just by the, the 24 hour news cycle, the, the venues out there, the media empires that, uh, feed off of people being enraged and fighting with one another.
[45:41.550 --> 45:47.690]  Um, you know, the Fox news is of the world, the Facebooks, the things like that, that, uh, that have got us into this position.
[45:47.730 --> 45:57.470]  And, you know, if, if we can't, if we can't pull our heads out of our asses long enough to fight an actual disease that is provable in every single scientific way as the problem that it is.
[45:57.750 --> 46:01.890]  And, uh, you know, that we all know people that, uh, that have died, that have gotten sick.
[46:02.410 --> 46:11.810]  Um, it's, it's just, uh, you know, when does the double think and when do people pull their heads out and, and open their eyes and, and, uh, decide to do the right thing?
[46:12.690 --> 46:14.450]  It, it, it troubles me a lot.
[46:14.690 --> 46:14.890]  Yeah.
[46:15.070 --> 46:27.850]  I think when we realize that we have the power to make change and that us being quiet is the same thing as us endorsing all the nonsense and negative thinking, that's, that's when things change and boy, things can change.
[46:27.850 --> 46:32.410]  They really can, you know, we, we, we, we brought up the super league example in, in Europe.
[46:32.750 --> 46:48.330]  Um, everything we complain about in this country, whether it's a filibuster, whether, uh, it's, um, uh, infrastructure, uh, whether it's the Supreme court, all of this can change if people simply show up and demand change.
[46:48.670 --> 46:53.670]  But if you sit back and just act outraged and say, oh, look what this person said, look what this person did.
[46:53.870 --> 46:54.630]  Can't believe it.
[46:54.710 --> 46:55.630]  We're never gonna get anything done.
[46:56.190 --> 46:56.850]  Guess what?
[46:57.050 --> 46:58.210]  Nothing will get done.
[46:58.670 --> 46:59.510]  Nothing will get done.
[46:59.690 --> 47:03.790]  You know, why do you think cops are being charged with murder now?
[47:04.630 --> 47:10.730]  Do you think it might have something to do with hundreds of thousands of people showing up in the streets and, and, and demanding change?
[47:11.150 --> 47:12.910]  I think it might've had something to do with that.
[47:14.010 --> 47:14.670]  People matter.
[47:14.810 --> 47:15.470]  People count.
[47:15.810 --> 47:16.150]  All right.
[47:16.190 --> 47:18.290]  We have a phone call on our toll free line.
[47:18.430 --> 47:19.330]  I think I know who this is.
[47:19.410 --> 47:19.670]  Go ahead.
[47:21.130 --> 47:21.370]  Hello?
[47:21.810 --> 47:22.310]  Yes, go ahead.
[47:23.430 --> 47:25.730]  So, uh, was I, who you were expecting?
[47:25.950 --> 47:26.110]  Yes.
[47:27.230 --> 47:27.590]  Okay.
[47:27.590 --> 47:28.270]  Exactly.
[47:28.270 --> 47:29.070]  Who I was expecting.
[47:30.550 --> 47:31.150]  Okay.
[47:31.730 --> 47:32.450]  No, actually, you're not.
[47:32.670 --> 47:33.230]  Go ahead.
[47:33.710 --> 47:34.590]  Didn't mean to freak you out.
[47:35.670 --> 47:37.470]  No, you didn't freak me out.
[47:38.670 --> 48:07.110]  Um, I think that Biden needs to concentrate on making things easier and easier and easier for the people who are not, uh, willing to go to great lengths instead of saying there's vaccine hesitancy and the, the, the scientists saying we, we can't do it,
[48:07.230 --> 48:10.690]  uh, make it easier for it.
[48:10.850 --> 48:12.110]  It does come.
[48:12.210 --> 48:25.190]  It comes from a, a place of fear, I think, more than, um, um, empowerment and, uh, showing people ways they are actually quite able to get vaccinated.
[48:25.550 --> 48:29.130]  So I would say you, you have a strong point there to a, to a degree.
[48:31.410 --> 48:41.110]  But, uh, I, I fear we're not going to, we may not be able to reach the levels we need.
[48:41.270 --> 48:51.450]  I, I, I got a phone call from my mother's cousin and her vision is so blind, she can't read.
[48:52.010 --> 49:02.830]  And all she hears is the right wing, uh, crap that, uh, her husband listens to.
[49:03.010 --> 49:17.710]  And so she believes all this stuff that the vaccines are dangerous and COVID is just a cold and that hospitals get thousands of dollars bonus for every person they claim died of COVID who didn't.
[49:18.150 --> 49:30.050]  You know, when, when, when people come up with these lies, you realize, you know, there's a part of me that always says, okay, this will convince them this, this will, this is the, the, the proof that we're waiting for.
[49:30.210 --> 49:31.110]  It doesn't matter.
[49:31.650 --> 49:35.410]  It doesn't, you know, God himself could come down from the heavens and say, no, you're wrong.
[49:35.590 --> 49:38.470]  And they'd still find a way of not believing.
[49:39.530 --> 49:49.810]  Uh, it's, you can't get through, you can't get through at a certain point and you have to realize you're dealing with cult behavior here and you have to act independently of it.
[49:50.130 --> 49:53.950]  And you have to, you have to, uh, um, help those people who still can be helped.
[49:55.190 --> 49:55.790]  Yes.
[49:56.210 --> 50:03.770]  Uh, hopefully there are, are enough people who can be persuaded to get it if we make it easy enough.
[50:03.990 --> 50:13.130]  And I'm, I'm so hopeful in May, there's, they're supposed to get it from emergency to full-fledged.
[50:13.310 --> 50:19.710]  And then all these different employers will be able to pressure their, uh, employees.
[50:19.710 --> 50:24.690]  You must get it once it's no longer emergency.
[50:25.170 --> 50:35.270]  Oh, you're talking about emergency use authorization versus a fully authorized, uh, safe and effective, uh, normal FDA approved inoculation.
[50:35.970 --> 50:36.610]  Correct.
[50:37.590 --> 50:38.010]  Interesting.
[50:38.210 --> 50:38.410]  Okay.
[50:38.650 --> 50:40.350]  Well, maybe that'll be some advance.
[50:40.610 --> 50:41.290]  That'd be nice.
[50:41.550 --> 50:49.590]  It does take the specter of something novel and, uh, and the association of it being untested when that's not true.
[50:49.870 --> 50:52.990]  It does take that away when you, when you get the EUA off of it.
[50:53.570 --> 50:54.850]  So, caller, update us here.
[50:54.910 --> 50:55.930]  You're totally vaccinated, right?
[50:56.830 --> 50:57.490]  Oh, yeah.
[50:57.850 --> 50:58.350]  Great, great.
[50:58.550 --> 51:02.250]  And, um, people in your social circles, any, any holdouts?
[51:04.010 --> 51:21.050]  Um, I do know someone in my social circle who, uh, a couple of people in my social circle who are, are, they're not dead set against being vaccinated, but they've got all these, uh, excuses.
[51:21.050 --> 51:25.030]  I have to get my dental work taken care of first.
[51:25.230 --> 51:31.150]  And I can't get my dental care taken care of because of X, Y, Z, and the other.
[51:31.910 --> 51:36.350]  And, uh, it's a sixth of a mile away and that's too far to walk.
[51:39.150 --> 51:40.110]  I, I hear you.
[51:40.510 --> 51:42.370]  I, I, I see the same thing all the time.
[51:42.530 --> 51:43.910]  I, I don't know people personally.
[51:44.190 --> 51:49.870]  Um, but I, I, I, I'm familiar with excuses like that and you just have to, you have to push them.
[51:49.990 --> 52:17.830]  You really do show people that you see the barriers that they're placing before you, but that you also are empathetic and you understand that they, at the same time, they are not their barriers and they can, they have agency and you're there to help possibly to work around what they are putting forth as an insurmountable barrier.
[52:18.190 --> 52:21.830]  And that, that I think speaks to what you were saying about the kind of messaging.
[52:21.830 --> 52:28.790]  Cause it is sounding a little negative and it should be a lot more like, how do we get vaccinated people to help other people?
[52:28.990 --> 52:34.130]  And you know, what kind of exponential, uh, availability are we doing?
[52:34.310 --> 52:40.590]  Um, how are we reconfiguring large vaccination sites into many smaller sites?
[52:40.790 --> 52:41.490]  What works?
[52:41.630 --> 52:45.750]  Like what, uh, and I don't think that HHS really knows yet or NHS.
[52:46.830 --> 52:52.890]  You, you lure people into drugstores by saying, wow, this is amazing product that I think you would love.
[52:53.090 --> 52:59.890]  And Hey, as long as we're here, uh, why don't you just go in the back there and get you shot and then just block the door until they do.
[53:00.690 --> 53:01.350]  I'm sorry.
[53:01.530 --> 53:02.550]  I'm ready to play hardball.
[53:02.550 --> 53:14.590]  Well, something encouraging, uh, they, they're having people come out, uh, not just for people who are homebound, uh, totally homebound, but for people who don't want to go out.
[53:14.790 --> 53:28.330]  And if they were willing to go to people's homes, if the people weren't willing to go out to them, then we could get these people who I can't walk a sixth of a mile.
[53:29.210 --> 53:29.810]  Yeah.
[53:29.950 --> 53:37.790]  There's something a little scary about a man showing up at your apartment with a needle, but, uh, I guess if that's what it takes, you know, Well, they've been invited.
[53:38.030 --> 53:38.310]  Uh-huh.
[53:38.450 --> 53:38.750]  Yes.
[53:38.930 --> 53:39.130]  Yes.
[53:39.790 --> 53:41.170]  Um, any closing thoughts?
[53:43.510 --> 53:47.870]  Uh, I, I'm, I'm waiting, I'm waiting for things to get better.
[53:48.150 --> 53:56.730]  I, I fear, you know, I, I keep track of, uh, how many days it takes to get to the next million cases.
[53:57.390 --> 54:05.510]  And I have this long list of, uh, how many days and that's seeing them go up and going down and going up again.
[54:06.090 --> 54:06.290]  Yeah.
[54:07.210 --> 54:16.030]  I'm watching the percentages of people who have been fully vaccinated, you know, and I want that number to, to go over 50% because that'll be a plateau, I think.
[54:16.210 --> 54:22.430]  And then we're in the home stretch to getting to a point where we could, you know, actually be past everything.
[54:23.330 --> 54:30.670]  Well, having kids be able to be vaccinated and having it required for school will definitely be helpful.
[54:30.910 --> 54:31.890]  Yes, absolutely.
[54:32.250 --> 54:44.470]  And incentives, you know, incentives for people who do this, they're, they have, uh, they, for some reason, they're giving drinks to people that, uh, get shots in, in, in many areas, a shot in a chaser, they're calling it that you get a beer after you get your shot.
[54:44.810 --> 54:45.790]  Um, sure.
[54:45.950 --> 54:47.070]  If that works, whatever works.
[54:47.070 --> 55:01.670]  The Mets and the Yankees are, uh, have, uh, regular seating, uh, free for, uh, regular seating for people who are vaccinated and free tickets to people who get vaccinated then and there.
[55:02.150 --> 55:02.670]  Wow.
[55:02.950 --> 55:05.890]  So for those of us who already got vaccinated, we don't really get anything, do we?
[55:07.190 --> 55:11.710]  Well, I get to not have to go to the Mets or the Yankees.
[55:13.690 --> 55:14.210]  Touche.
[55:15.750 --> 55:16.410]  All right.
[55:16.410 --> 55:17.150]  Thanks for calling.
[55:17.310 --> 55:18.110]  Always good to hear from you.
[55:18.810 --> 55:19.230]  Thank you.
[55:19.350 --> 55:19.590]  Bye-bye.
[55:19.690 --> 55:19.990]  Take care.
[55:21.170 --> 55:21.490]  All right.
[55:21.590 --> 55:23.170]  You know, I think we have time for maybe one more call.
[55:23.590 --> 55:28.530]  802-321-4225, 802-321-4225, which, of course, spells hack.
[55:29.430 --> 55:31.650]  Alex, it looks like you, you're about to say something clever.
[55:32.730 --> 55:36.250]  Uh, I, I think maybe too clever.
[55:37.030 --> 55:38.150]  Uh, yeah.
[55:38.310 --> 55:40.430]  So I'm gonna, I'm gonna hold it back, actually.
[55:40.610 --> 55:40.770]  Yeah.
[55:40.830 --> 55:42.310]  You don't want to be too clever, Alex.
[55:42.810 --> 55:43.670]  This is YouTube.
[55:44.090 --> 55:44.230]  Yeah.
[55:44.230 --> 55:45.330]  That's, that's certainly right.
[55:45.490 --> 55:50.590]  Well, I guess, you know, I was gonna say, yes, you, you do get something for being vaccinated.
[55:50.810 --> 55:51.830]  You, you get to live.
[55:52.290 --> 55:56.690]  You know, that's, that's, that's the, uh, that's the best thing you can get from the vaccine, right?
[55:56.790 --> 55:58.350]  Is, is life, right?
[55:58.530 --> 56:05.570]  Who needs the Mets or the Yankees when we can all still breathe and, and, and see and feel and touch and taste?
[56:05.810 --> 56:06.630]  It's kind of wonderful.
[56:07.510 --> 56:08.510]  Yeah, it is.
[56:08.650 --> 56:09.250]  It is.
[56:09.570 --> 56:14.470]  That's, um, I look forward to, uh, to actually going outside and doing things again.
[56:14.650 --> 56:19.230]  I think, um, we're all pretty much past the two week after the second shot point.
[56:19.850 --> 56:24.750]  So have, have we been doing additional things that we wouldn't have done before?
[56:26.650 --> 56:28.570]  Um, I went to a restaurant.
[56:28.790 --> 56:30.570]  Oh, tell us, tell us, what was that like?
[56:31.210 --> 56:32.290]  It was great.
[56:32.750 --> 56:35.370]  Um, you know, it was interesting.
[56:35.770 --> 56:46.330]  The menu was exclusively on the website and, you know, I watched a table of, uh, an older couple get seated and they were a little confused by that piece of it.
[56:46.410 --> 56:47.850]  Hang on, they don't hand you a menu.
[56:48.050 --> 56:49.510]  You have to go... They do not hand you a menu.
[56:49.730 --> 56:53.950]  You either have to go to the website by yourself or scan the QR code that's posted on the wall.
[56:54.050 --> 56:57.530]  I, I have a question that will probably annoy people, but what if you don't have a phone?
[56:59.630 --> 57:00.670]  I don't know.
[57:00.910 --> 57:02.650]  What are you doing in this century?
[57:02.850 --> 57:03.570]  Oh my God.
[57:03.710 --> 57:03.990]  Okay.
[57:04.270 --> 57:05.130]  Digital dinosaur.
[57:05.570 --> 57:08.890]  Maybe some helpful youngster from the next table will help you out.
[57:08.890 --> 57:13.410]  Um, I have a colleague who has a flip phone, so I don't know what he would do.
[57:14.110 --> 57:16.910]  Um, but no, it was lovely.
[57:17.010 --> 57:18.290]  We were in a little sidewalk shed.
[57:18.450 --> 57:28.530]  There was one moment where, uh, the wind kicked up and the dividers between two tables got a little wibbly and, you know, our server was concerned that it had hit us, but it was great.
[57:28.690 --> 57:34.750]  There was mask compliance and, and the food was good.
[57:34.750 --> 57:36.190]  And you were, you were outside though?
[57:36.870 --> 57:37.270]  Yeah.
[57:37.710 --> 57:37.950]  Okay.
[57:38.110 --> 57:40.790]  Now were they, were they seating people inside as well?
[57:41.630 --> 57:43.110]  If they were, I didn't see it.
[57:43.170 --> 57:46.250]  The only people I saw go into the restaurant itself were employees.
[57:46.490 --> 57:46.690]  Okay.
[57:47.370 --> 57:47.630]  Yeah.
[57:47.690 --> 57:52.430]  I think I'd probably, um, uh, feel like going outside more than inside.
[57:52.870 --> 57:58.830]  Uh, although, you know, I have been inside in various places, uh, but you wear your mask as much as possible.
[57:59.110 --> 58:00.630]  You keep distance as much as possible.
[58:00.830 --> 58:10.990]  And, um, it, you know, keeping in mind the numbers, you should be okay, uh, as long as you don't, uh, and you're vaccinated, but you know, there is some uncertainty.
[58:11.210 --> 58:18.490]  I went to a bar that had a couple people and, um, like music, like a DJ.
[58:18.830 --> 58:24.430]  And that was a first because performing and like, you know, bars weren't really doing anything like that.
[58:24.570 --> 58:31.750]  And it's strange because some people are really comfortable with like no masks and just like having their drinks.
[58:31.910 --> 58:33.770]  They've been like that for maybe weeks.
[58:34.290 --> 58:46.490]  Um, almost too, very much for me, too comfortable with just being indoors and acting as though nothing, no behavioral changes are necessary.
[58:46.490 --> 58:51.850]  Here I come in off the street wearing the kinds of precaution, like masks and stuff.
[58:51.850 --> 58:58.910]  But once I'm inside, I of course want to take a sip without, uh, PPE in the way.
[58:58.970 --> 59:03.530]  So you have to kind of join that at a certain point.
[59:03.530 --> 59:07.470]  And I, I mentioned this the other day and it's been like an adjustment.
[59:07.470 --> 59:18.250]  And I think for a lot of people it is to be comfortable and, um, acknowledge that it's still a little bit uncertain, but that it's not as necessary.
[59:18.250 --> 59:19.670]  Like you're saying, you watch the numbers.
[59:19.670 --> 59:19.970]  Okay.
[59:20.210 --> 59:32.030]  So there's however many people inside, you don't have to break it down so analytically, but, um, it's in the back of my mind still, even if I'm trying to like, not be, uh, anxious about it.
[59:32.190 --> 59:32.830]  Well, I mean, think about it.
[59:32.830 --> 59:47.090]  If you're going into a place and say there's, you know, 10 people in there and all those 10 people have taken precautions, they've all gotten vaccinated or they're continuing to, uh, wear a face mask while they're not actually eating.
[59:47.550 --> 59:49.330]  Um, that's safe.
[59:49.710 --> 59:51.630]  As far as I can see, that is safe.
[59:51.870 --> 01:00:03.690]  If you go into a similar environment though, where you don't know if people are being smart, you know, and where people are likely to just do whatever they feel like, well then that's not safe.
[01:00:03.850 --> 01:00:05.930]  It's, it's, you know, and, and that'll keep you from going out.
[01:00:06.030 --> 01:00:08.310]  That'll keep you from, from enjoying yourself.
[01:00:08.530 --> 01:00:10.190]  How does that benefit anybody?
[01:00:10.410 --> 01:00:12.050]  That's what we're, we're facing here.
[01:00:12.250 --> 01:00:18.210]  You know, it's, it's, it's basically, are people being smart or are they, are they, uh, being irresponsible?
[01:00:18.870 --> 01:00:22.810]  And, um, that dictates our, our pace of recovery, Rob?
[01:00:23.870 --> 01:00:37.190]  Talking of irresponsibility though, um, one thing we have to consider with outdoor dining, there was a, there was a video going around Twitter by, uh, someone called Katie Penick who, uh, uses a wheelchair and she demonstrated in this video, trying to get around the sidewalks,
[01:00:37.230 --> 01:00:41.370]  um, where there's outdoor dining set up and how it's completely blocking her access.
[01:00:41.850 --> 01:00:44.570]  And, uh, so, you know, it's great that we have outdoor dining.
[01:00:44.690 --> 01:00:53.910]  It's great that we can start getting out there again, but these things have to be done in a responsible manner that, uh, doesn't impinge upon the, uh, rights to freely move about of our fellow human beings.
[01:00:54.090 --> 01:00:55.630]  So what's, what's the solution?
[01:00:55.830 --> 01:00:58.470]  So we have to, we have to come up with solutions to these problems.
[01:00:59.130 --> 01:01:02.130]  Outdoor dining, uh, can impede wheelchair access, obviously.
[01:01:02.370 --> 01:01:03.290]  So how do we fix that?
[01:01:05.450 --> 01:01:16.930]  That's a, that's an excellent question, but, uh, you know, it's a, it's a simple matter, I think, to, uh, leave a reasonable amount of space, even if that means you don't get to put out as much tables, as many tables, if you're, if you're a restaurant.
[01:01:17.070 --> 01:01:17.250]  Okay.
[01:01:17.570 --> 01:01:24.370]  Um, but you know, these, these, uh, these things need addressing, um, on a case by case basis and in a responsible manner.
[01:01:24.950 --> 01:01:25.950]  Yes, absolutely.
[01:01:26.790 --> 01:01:27.710]  Not much to ask.
[01:01:27.930 --> 01:01:28.430]  It really isn't.
[01:01:29.010 --> 01:01:29.550]  All right.
[01:01:29.990 --> 01:01:32.010]  You know, I don't think we're going to get that, that last phone call.
[01:01:32.210 --> 01:01:33.630]  So, uh, we're tired.
[01:01:34.090 --> 01:01:35.090]  We're a little cranky.
[01:01:35.330 --> 01:01:36.770]  We want to get on with our lives.
[01:01:38.050 --> 01:01:39.390]  I want to thank everybody for listening.
[01:01:39.750 --> 01:01:44.230]  People who called in people who are hopefully writing to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[01:01:44.390 --> 01:01:47.010]  Please let us know your, uh, experiences, thoughts, things like that.
[01:01:47.110 --> 01:01:50.290]  I would like to hear from somebody who got the vaccine because of hearing us.
[01:01:51.150 --> 01:01:53.010]  Tell us about something that you hacked.
[01:01:53.390 --> 01:01:54.330]  Yeah, that too.
[01:01:54.470 --> 01:01:59.490]  Remember, remember hacking or something that you notice has been hacked.
[01:01:59.770 --> 01:01:59.910]  Mm-hmm.
[01:02:00.230 --> 01:02:01.870]  There's a lot going on out there to notice.
[01:02:02.430 --> 01:02:03.910]  So, uh, we want to hear from you.
[01:02:05.290 --> 01:02:07.970]  Folks, any, any final thoughts from out there in Skype land?
[01:02:10.770 --> 01:02:14.390]  Um, uh, I think, I believe we're preempted next week, so we should put that out.
[01:02:14.530 --> 01:02:16.110]  I didn't know that we're preempted next week.
[01:02:16.250 --> 01:02:16.430]  Wow.
[01:02:16.590 --> 01:02:16.830]  Okay.
[01:02:17.050 --> 01:02:18.630]  According to list, we are preempted next week.
[01:02:18.770 --> 01:02:22.430]  Oh, well, that'd be nice to tell people on the show, people who listen over the air.
[01:02:23.070 --> 01:02:23.430]  Okay.
[01:02:23.430 --> 01:02:24.450]  We're preempted next week.
[01:02:24.590 --> 01:02:25.910]  Well then we should do something else.
[01:02:26.730 --> 01:02:32.610]  Um, let's confirm that and, uh, we will, uh, we'll announce it on Twitter, I guess.
[01:02:33.750 --> 01:02:39.070]  Uh, are there hacker meetings, Rob, in the virtual land?
[01:02:39.270 --> 01:02:41.990]  Well, first of all, it's, it's not the beginning of the month anymore.
[01:02:42.030 --> 01:02:42.590]  Is it?
[01:02:43.150 --> 01:02:43.750]  It is.
[01:02:43.870 --> 01:02:44.170]  Is it?
[01:02:44.270 --> 01:02:44.570]  Hold on.
[01:02:44.630 --> 01:02:46.230]  Today is May 5th.
[01:02:46.230 --> 01:02:47.050]  May 1st was a Saturday.
[01:02:47.310 --> 01:02:47.990]  Oh, okay.
[01:02:48.130 --> 01:02:50.190]  So it's the last possible day.
[01:02:50.290 --> 01:02:50.490]  Yes.
[01:02:50.610 --> 01:02:51.370]  Aren't I supposed to ask?
[01:02:51.530 --> 01:02:52.330]  Yeah, no, you're right.
[01:02:52.410 --> 01:02:52.950]  You're totally right.
[01:02:52.950 --> 01:02:54.130]  I thought I served that up.
[01:02:54.190 --> 01:02:56.450]  I just thought it was more into May than it was.
[01:02:56.830 --> 01:02:58.950]  So yeah, Rob, what, what's going on?
[01:02:59.570 --> 01:03:02.090]  Well, there are still no 2,600 meetings in person.
[01:03:02.090 --> 01:03:14.190]  Um, that has not been restarted, but, uh, a lot of 26 meeting, a lot of 2,600 meeting groups have had their, um, virtual events going to try and keep everyone in touch and, you know, provide some semblance of community.
[01:03:14.270 --> 01:03:16.170]  And, uh, we are doing that as well.
[01:03:18.550 --> 01:03:30.230]  Keep the info for the meeting here in New York and, uh, find your local 2,600 meeting groups if you are elsewhere and see if they're doing any sort of, uh, internet based meeting or meeting in a safe manner somewhere.
[01:03:30.710 --> 01:03:35.570]  The, uh, meeting section on the 2600.com website will of course update you on that.
[01:03:35.690 --> 01:03:43.270]  And, uh, I know we're going to be having, um, some, some announcements, um, probably if not the end of this month, the beginning of next month.
[01:03:43.430 --> 01:03:46.670]  So things are, are, are changing, moving ahead.
[01:03:46.910 --> 01:03:49.530]  Uh, and we'll, we'll have a lot to, uh, a lot more to say about that.
[01:03:49.590 --> 01:04:02.270]  But for now, uh, status quo staying the same, uh, and, uh, looking forward to, um, to getting back to some semblance of normalcy, how much that depends on the rest of us and how much we progress.
[01:04:02.830 --> 01:04:03.770]  Fingers crossed.
[01:04:04.510 --> 01:04:05.350]  Good night, everybody.