[00:00.000 --> 00:10.520]  For the next Backstage Stories on WBAI 99.5 FM and streaming at WBAI.org.
[00:12.560 --> 00:23.720]  The previous program was Economic Update with Richard Wolff, heard right after the WBAI Evening News on Wednesdays at 6.30 p.m.
[00:24.060 --> 00:25.700]  Stay tuned for Off the Hook.
[00:25.900 --> 00:27.380]  It is now 7 p.m.
[00:27.520 --> 00:28.120]  Stay tuned.
[00:30.300 --> 00:33.480]  And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI New York.
[00:33.660 --> 00:35.300]  The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:35.300 --> 00:36.280]  It's a Wednesday night.
[00:36.280 --> 00:38.940]  And that means it's time for Off the Hook.
[02:16.170 --> 02:18.110]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:18.210 --> 02:20.150]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:20.390 --> 02:21.310]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
[02:21.550 --> 02:23.550]  Joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:23.870 --> 02:24.910]  Yeah, for the most part.
[02:25.490 --> 02:26.010]  Alex.
[02:26.890 --> 02:27.610]  Good evening.
[02:28.470 --> 02:28.970]  Rob.
[02:29.550 --> 02:30.070]  T.
[02:30.190 --> 02:30.550]  Firefly.
[02:30.790 --> 02:30.970]  Good evening.
[02:31.230 --> 02:31.690]  And Gila.
[02:31.690 --> 02:31.910]  Hello.
[02:31.910 --> 02:32.370]  Welcome back.
[02:32.630 --> 02:32.870]  Hello.
[02:33.270 --> 02:33.610]  Thank you.
[02:34.030 --> 02:39.590]  Well, here we are again on another Wednesday evening in the waning days of May.
[02:41.070 --> 02:43.430]  And I guess we're getting closer to normalcy.
[02:43.510 --> 02:44.510]  I'm seeing signs of it everywhere.
[02:44.710 --> 02:45.390]  Hey, we went...
[02:45.390 --> 02:48.230]  Kyle and I went to Manhattan a couple days ago.
[02:48.450 --> 02:49.490]  And boy, that was interesting.
[02:49.730 --> 02:50.850]  The city is coming back.
[02:51.290 --> 02:55.190]  You told me last week that you were going to tell me when you were going to Manhattan and I would meet you there.
[02:55.270 --> 02:55.450]  Yeah.
[02:55.610 --> 02:56.030]  Yeah, I know.
[02:56.570 --> 02:56.950]  Wait.
[02:57.050 --> 03:01.170]  I remember that it was Alex that told us that we had to tell him.
[03:01.170 --> 03:03.350]  We never said that we were going to tell him.
[03:03.410 --> 03:04.990]  Yeah, he did tell us that we had to tell him.
[03:05.070 --> 03:06.470]  I realized we didn't have to do that.
[03:06.570 --> 03:09.870]  We could just go on the spur of the moment and check it out for ourselves.
[03:10.110 --> 03:11.730]  You know, we want to keep it low key.
[03:11.970 --> 03:12.990]  You know what happens, Alex?
[03:13.130 --> 03:16.130]  When we get together, crowds form, autographs, all that stuff.
[03:16.250 --> 03:20.550]  And I just wanted it to, you know, be a little bit mellow this time.
[03:20.670 --> 03:24.050]  And, you know, I put a hood over my head and everything was fine.
[03:24.190 --> 03:27.930]  But I got to say, you know, the spirit in New York is incredible.
[03:27.930 --> 03:37.230]  Well, you know, you expect contentiousness when there shouldn't be any with the whole mask situation and social distancing.
[03:37.230 --> 03:39.610]  But everybody was really looking out for each other.
[03:39.810 --> 03:47.110]  And I didn't get any kind of the feeling that you might hear about in the mass media.
[03:47.870 --> 03:58.230]  People were just happy to be out and, you know, glad to be seeing old places again and people and just being outside in the fresh air.
[03:58.950 --> 04:04.090]  So don't believe the reports that you might be hearing about how New York has turned into a cesspool and everybody's killing each other.
[04:04.190 --> 04:05.230]  No, it's not like that at all.
[04:05.330 --> 04:06.690]  It's amazing.
[04:06.690 --> 04:09.290]  It's like a breath of fresh air.
[04:09.670 --> 04:11.910]  And hope to come back soon.
[04:12.270 --> 04:15.150]  Alex, I see you're holed up in Pennsylvania, though.
[04:15.690 --> 04:20.730]  Yeah, I'm holed up in Pennsylvania, but I spend about, you know, half the week in New York, I guess.
[04:21.370 --> 04:23.210]  But look, I will say this.
[04:23.370 --> 04:28.030]  You're seeing New York at a time when it is re-emerging from the pandemic.
[04:28.030 --> 04:35.110]  And the darker days of the fall and the winter, I have to say, it was really not such a nice place.
[04:35.310 --> 04:36.350]  Well, no place was.
[04:36.610 --> 04:37.950]  No place was a nice place.
[04:38.130 --> 04:39.830]  I think especially New York.
[04:40.030 --> 04:42.770]  It was, you know, there were very few people out on the streets.
[04:43.270 --> 04:47.650]  I would look out from my street, which is a very busy street in Manhattan.
[04:48.250 --> 04:53.350]  And, you know, ordinarily, any time of the day or night, you can see people milling around three o'clock in the morning, four o'clock in the morning.
[04:53.470 --> 04:53.870]  It doesn't matter.
[04:53.990 --> 04:54.350]  It's always people.
[04:55.070 --> 04:58.830]  I would look out the window and not see anybody walk down the street for 10 minutes.
[04:58.950 --> 05:00.530]  I mean, it felt like a ghost town.
[05:00.750 --> 05:06.090]  It was certainly more dangerous, but it is so very much snapping back right now.
[05:06.090 --> 05:07.430]  I mean, the city feels happier.
[05:07.810 --> 05:09.030]  It feels healthier.
[05:09.510 --> 05:10.350]  It's sunny.
[05:10.630 --> 05:13.150]  You know, it's a vibrant place again.
[05:13.330 --> 05:28.270]  And what the city lost, to my mind, during the height of the pandemic, was, you know, when you walk outside of your apartment or whatever it is, your office building, you're on the street in Manhattan, any borough, really, and you feel this buzz.
[05:28.370 --> 05:30.670]  There was always a buzz of activity in New York.
[05:31.070 --> 05:33.530]  That was what was missing during the lockdown.
[05:33.870 --> 05:34.390]  It was gone.
[05:34.550 --> 05:35.690]  But I feel like it's back.
[05:35.970 --> 05:39.330]  You walk out the streets, and people are happy, and they're doing things.
[05:39.490 --> 05:40.730]  And once again...
[05:40.730 --> 05:43.410]  And what did you think, by the way, of all the outdoor dining?
[05:43.890 --> 05:44.830]  Oh, I think it's great.
[05:45.250 --> 05:46.550]  You know, I wanted to be...
[05:46.550 --> 05:50.790]  First of all, I was wondering, somebody must have made a fortune building all these structures.
[05:51.050 --> 05:53.110]  The designs got really, really good.
[05:53.310 --> 05:55.490]  Like, there's some incredible finish work out there.
[05:55.530 --> 05:58.830]  Is there just a craftsman behind all this, or does every shop do their own?
[05:58.830 --> 06:04.190]  They have, like, high voltage for heaters in the winter, and it was incredible.
[06:04.390 --> 06:09.810]  Yeah, I think if any good is going to come out of the hell we've been through in the last year, that's the good that's going to come out of it.
[06:10.610 --> 06:16.430]  You know, being in the city, maybe this is just me not being in the city for a while, but I really do think there was a change.
[06:16.630 --> 06:18.270]  I see a lot more people out on bikes.
[06:18.290 --> 06:19.870]  I see a lot more people walking.
[06:20.050 --> 06:26.210]  I see less cars, and certainly less parking spaces because of all the new outdoor dining.
[06:26.290 --> 06:26.930]  And I think that's great.
[06:26.930 --> 06:34.110]  I think, you know, we need to have more of a people-based city, not a deadly vehicle type city.
[06:34.190 --> 06:36.250]  I think we're making the transition rather nicely.
[06:36.770 --> 06:45.210]  And, you know, I hope that these outdoor structures help to save a lot of these establishments that might otherwise not survive.
[06:45.450 --> 06:46.410]  Yes, Rob, go ahead.
[06:47.130 --> 06:49.890]  Yeah, I do appreciate the outdoor dining structures.
[06:50.690 --> 06:54.570]  I also appreciate the bike lanes and walkable sidewalks.
[06:54.570 --> 06:59.230]  So in some places, we see the outdoor structures actually taking away from those.
[06:59.890 --> 07:06.330]  In a lot of places, they're taking away from parking spaces for cars, which is fine for me because, you know, fewer cars is not a bad thing in this city.
[07:06.450 --> 07:07.190]  Well, they are in the street.
[07:07.490 --> 07:08.530]  They're in the street, aren't they?
[07:08.610 --> 07:09.550]  They shouldn't be on the sidewalk.
[07:11.230 --> 07:15.750]  The structures are, for the most part, in the street, but not always.
[07:15.870 --> 07:16.230]  Not always.
[07:16.230 --> 07:18.530]  There are several restaurants by my office.
[07:18.790 --> 07:23.490]  I have been in the city two days a week since right after Labor Day.
[07:23.690 --> 07:25.450]  And it's fascinating to see.
[07:25.710 --> 07:39.770]  I actually basically slalomed down the sidewalk yesterday because there's a restaurant that has taken over half of its block with strategically placed tables.
[07:39.770 --> 07:43.570]  And at one point, there's like a stoop with stairs.
[07:43.590 --> 07:53.750]  And there's, I have no idea how someone who had a stroller or who used a wheelchair would be able to get through that block right now because the sidewalk is so constrained.
[07:54.130 --> 07:56.830]  I love seeing the outdoor dining in the streets.
[07:56.830 --> 08:02.270]  I'm a little less enthused about outdoor dining tables on the sidewalk.
[08:02.310 --> 08:04.150]  Well, yeah, there needs to be some tweaking.
[08:04.390 --> 08:05.850]  I think we're in that stage right now.
[08:05.850 --> 08:12.330]  Now, if you walk down the sidewalk, going from one place to another, and you wind up getting handed a menu, that's a sign of a problem.
[08:12.510 --> 08:18.590]  And we need to address that and make sure that it doesn't encroach on people who are simply trying to get from one place to another.
[08:18.790 --> 08:24.390]  But I just, you know, I felt like, I was saying this to Kyle, I just felt like people had ownership more.
[08:25.570 --> 08:39.950]  You know, what I mean by that is people were walking around like it was their city, like they had reclaimed it, but they had survived, you know, a year of hell and they weren't going to lose any more.
[08:40.510 --> 08:43.070]  And I just got that kind of defiant attitude.
[08:43.330 --> 08:45.690]  And I think defiant attitudes are great.
[08:45.690 --> 08:51.190]  So I'm hoping this is something we don't let go of and we keep building on it.
[08:52.450 --> 09:01.510]  I suggest people just go into town, walk around, spend a day just seeing things and experiencing these first new days because they are very special.
[09:02.890 --> 09:03.370]  Yeah.
[09:03.670 --> 09:15.870]  And support the businesses that you've been worried about all year, the places you love, the places that take care of you well, and the places that deserve to survive the rougher times as we've all been facing.
[09:16.050 --> 09:19.530]  We had a frozen yogurt recently out in an outdoor dining area.
[09:20.210 --> 09:22.510]  You've been living in the fast lane, haven't you?
[09:22.610 --> 09:22.750]  Wow.
[09:23.170 --> 09:24.070]  Tell us about this.
[09:24.890 --> 09:27.670]  Our air conditioner is not working correctly right now.
[09:28.710 --> 09:33.010]  So in the 90 degree heat on Sunday, I said, we're getting out of here.
[09:33.490 --> 09:44.630]  And we walked through our neighborhood and it was lovely and we got frozen yogurt and we ate it outside and then we went shopping in a store that had air conditioning and then we came home.
[09:45.410 --> 09:45.570]  Yeah.
[09:45.810 --> 09:45.970]  Wow.
[09:46.610 --> 09:47.570]  Life in the fast lane.
[09:47.670 --> 09:49.090]  It is life in the fast lane, but great.
[09:49.230 --> 09:49.610]  Good for you.
[09:49.730 --> 09:51.250]  And that's awesome.
[09:51.250 --> 09:54.810]  Um, I did have a new experience, uh, this past week.
[09:54.950 --> 09:57.630]  I did something that I haven't done in a year and a half.
[09:57.870 --> 09:58.450]  Do share.
[09:58.950 --> 10:00.330]  I caught a cold.
[10:00.590 --> 10:01.610]  Oh, wow.
[10:01.990 --> 10:07.210]  Hopefully not, not intentionally, but I guess, I guess we can do that again.
[10:07.790 --> 10:09.230]  Any particular vintage?
[10:09.790 --> 10:12.290]  I mean, masks work is the thing.
[10:12.290 --> 10:24.210]  And we are completely vaccinated and we were visiting family who are completely vaccinated with the exception of the small child who was so excited to see me.
[10:24.850 --> 10:34.130]  And he, while I was holding him, um, coughed directly into my mouth and shared his daycare cold.
[10:34.410 --> 10:35.210]  Wow.
[10:35.210 --> 10:35.310]  Wow.
[10:35.710 --> 10:38.350]  And you brought that back to Manhattan or to Queens.
[10:38.430 --> 10:39.150]  I sure did.
[10:39.270 --> 10:41.010]  I, well, mostly to Queens.
[10:41.230 --> 10:43.310]  Um, but it was very interesting.
[10:43.610 --> 10:49.350]  I contacted, uh, the HR department at my work and I said, I feel terrible.
[10:49.630 --> 10:54.970]  Like I physically feel terrible, but am I going to need a negative COVID test to come back in?
[10:54.970 --> 10:58.710]  Um, and she said, oh, well, you're vaccinated.
[10:58.970 --> 11:05.410]  So only if you're actively symptomatic and I'm not actively symptomatic.
[11:05.610 --> 11:08.630]  The symptoms are the same as a, as a cold though, aren't they?
[11:09.470 --> 11:14.590]  Not entirely because I still have my sense of taste, my sense of smell.
[11:15.050 --> 11:16.530]  Um, I'm not achy.
[11:16.690 --> 11:19.770]  I just had a stuffy nose and, uh, and a cough.
[11:19.770 --> 11:28.150]  But the good news is that, um, it was not a COVID cough because you should pardon me, but, uh, COVID coughs are not productive.
[11:28.150 --> 11:29.050]  And mine was.
[11:29.430 --> 11:30.310]  Well, good for you.
[11:30.530 --> 11:30.930]  Also, you had no fever.
[11:31.150 --> 11:31.630]  I'm happy to hear that.
[11:31.710 --> 11:33.110]  And I had, and I also had no fever.
[11:33.410 --> 11:33.770]  Wow.
[11:33.930 --> 11:37.950]  But I think, uh, you, you touched on a very good point in that us wearing masks for the last year.
[11:38.410 --> 11:38.590]  Yeah.
[11:38.650 --> 11:40.250]  I guess there have been fewer colds as well.
[11:40.370 --> 11:41.190]  I was wondering about that.
[11:41.290 --> 11:45.090]  If I catch a cold, how is it I'm catching a cold, but not catching COVID?
[11:45.090 --> 11:46.390]  Uh, do they travel?
[11:46.510 --> 11:50.270]  And in fact, it turns out they, they, uh, the germs do travel in a different manner.
[11:50.470 --> 11:55.610]  So you can catch a coat, a cold while, uh, while wearing a mask, but not be protected from COVID.
[11:55.950 --> 12:01.210]  Uh, but I do think that wearing the masks, um, um, kept us from other unpleasant things as well.
[12:01.370 --> 12:04.410]  So there, there's a, you know, another positive aspect to all that.
[12:04.530 --> 12:15.750]  I feel like just at least having, uh, uh, it as one more thing in your pocket has been, uh, the theme and will probably be, uh, the theme going forward.
[12:16.610 --> 12:17.030]  Yeah.
[12:17.310 --> 12:26.810]  Because you slip it on or, you know, you at least have it for a situation that, uh, you may have learned from, like as in, uh, Gia's story.
[12:27.490 --> 12:31.370]  You know, uh, walking around, uh, we went to, um, the West side.
[12:31.550 --> 12:33.210]  Uh, I don't often go to the West side.
[12:33.350 --> 12:34.850]  I know Alex, you're spending time on the West side.
[12:35.290 --> 12:41.750]  Um, but, uh, we went to the Hudson River, you know, that little, uh, island they, they built the floating island, little island, kind of a look at that.
[12:41.850 --> 12:44.710]  You can't go to it because you have to make a reservation months in advance.
[12:45.230 --> 12:46.450]  And we weren't about to do that.
[12:46.670 --> 12:49.030]  But, um, the, the architecture is interesting.
[12:49.150 --> 12:55.710]  All the new buildings there that, uh, have sprung up in, in recent years, hadn't really gotten a close look, uh, at them before.
[12:55.790 --> 12:57.390]  There's one scary looking building there.
[12:57.450 --> 13:02.950]  If maybe a listener can help us tell, uh, tell us what this building is with a kind of a ledge way up high.
[13:03.150 --> 13:04.570]  It looks like an observation deck.
[13:05.030 --> 13:06.630]  It's, it's right by the Hudson River.
[13:06.630 --> 13:09.730]  And I, I get scared just looking at it and seeing all the people standing on it.
[13:10.510 --> 13:11.890]  Um, do you know, Alex?
[13:12.190 --> 13:12.970]  Looks like you're...
[13:13.510 --> 13:14.270]  We're on the Hudson.
[13:14.410 --> 13:16.050]  That's a pretty long stretch of river.
[13:16.250 --> 13:18.030]  Yeah, it's in the, I think it's in the 20s.
[13:18.410 --> 13:20.710]  The 20s or the 30s, in that, in that zone.
[13:20.970 --> 13:24.290]  Probably, and, uh, we visited, uh, Monaghan Train Hall, which is great.
[13:24.390 --> 13:29.950]  You know, we actually have, uh, a European-style train hall in, in Manhattan.
[13:30.110 --> 13:31.730]  I urge everybody to go and visit that.
[13:31.730 --> 13:40.010]  And if they rebuild Penn Station, uh, to, to make it worthy of its name, uh, then we'll have something truly amazing in that region.
[13:40.090 --> 13:50.150]  But, you know, one thing that we saw that was, uh, distressing, Hotel Pennsylvania, locked up, literally got a padlock on it with a laser-printed sign that says, Hotel Closed.
[13:50.150 --> 13:51.570]  Nothing more than that.
[13:51.990 --> 13:57.710]  There is no reason for that hotel to be closed now, uh, because people are visiting again.
[13:58.210 --> 13:59.170]  Other hotels are open.
[13:59.590 --> 14:12.190]  And the only reason we can see for this happening is that, uh, Vornado really wants to push ahead with their plans to demolish it and build, uh, a, uh, another office building that we don't need as part of a master plan of some sort.
[14:12.310 --> 14:13.970]  Really, it's, it's a disservice.
[14:14.150 --> 14:24.930]  I know people in New York don't appreciate it because, you know, people in New York don't tend to stay in hotels in New York, but people who travel and need affordable places to stay, that hotel was a godsend.
[14:25.410 --> 14:27.950]  And, uh, it's just recognizable to everybody.
[14:28.270 --> 14:31.190]  It's, it's, their trademark is the most popular hotel in the world.
[14:31.350 --> 14:41.650]  So I think what you have the most popular hotel in the world being shuttered by a greedy landlord who wants to put thousands of people out of work so that they can build an office tower that is not needed.
[14:41.970 --> 14:42.810]  It's so wrong.
[14:42.910 --> 14:46.610]  I know the whole conferences aren't being held there anymore, but that's not the issue.
[14:46.610 --> 14:55.650]  You know, when we said we wanted to save the hotel back in 2008, we meant it then and we mean it now because it's a structure worthy of preservation.
[14:55.730 --> 15:01.130]  It's got so much history and it serves a very valuable purpose.
[15:01.130 --> 15:15.510]  It was a very successful place and there's no reason to, um, have that depressing, um, uh, site greet people when they get out of Penn Station of, of, of a once vibrant place closed just because some, some landlord made the decision.
[15:16.010 --> 15:16.930]  Alex, go ahead.
[15:17.590 --> 15:25.870]  I mean, it raises the issue of what, what in the hell is the landmarks preservation commission doing in New York these days, right?
[15:25.930 --> 15:43.090]  I mean, they were so quick to, uh, insist on rubber stamping the landmark designation of the strands building and entirely unremarkable building architecturally, uh, and claiming that it had all of this cultural significance, well, the hotel Pennsylvania has a hell of a lot of cultural significance,
[15:43.090 --> 15:56.310]  a huge amount of history, and yet they're doing nothing insofar as I can tell to save that building as they did nothing with, with many, many, many other buildings that also deserved, uh, landmark recognition.
[15:56.490 --> 16:00.930]  The biggest, um, um, uh, comment I hear about the hotel is that it's, it's not attractive.
[16:00.930 --> 16:02.250]  It's not pretty, but you know what?
[16:02.270 --> 16:03.530]  A lot of times history isn't pretty.
[16:03.530 --> 16:04.010]  Okay.
[16:04.570 --> 16:13.790]  You look at some of the, some of the ruins in Rome and boy, you know, uh, it, it looks like somebody let it go, you know, go to waste, but it's, there's history there.
[16:13.850 --> 16:19.730]  There's so many stories, so much has happened and, um, it really is a significant structure.
[16:19.970 --> 16:20.370]  Yes, Kyle.
[16:20.590 --> 16:40.390]  I just want to add that, uh, when you look into the side entrance, you can see the exposed beam that was part of a small project they had started, uh, inside the hotel showcasing different intact historical parts of the hotel with some kind of placard and,
[16:40.390 --> 16:45.950]  and, uh, uh, setting dressing to put it in context for what it was originally.
[16:46.250 --> 16:50.070]  And people who say to the hotel could go and look at different parts of it.
[16:50.150 --> 16:56.410]  And this beam is one of those things in the lobby there and, uh, peering into the closed doors was surreal.
[16:56.790 --> 17:02.030]  Um, knowing that that was something that they were emphasizing and now here it is in flux.
[17:02.030 --> 17:12.630]  So I imagine whatever it becomes, some of that will have to stay put or, um, you know, be a sticking point on any kind of demolition.
[17:12.770 --> 17:13.150]  Yeah.
[17:13.170 --> 17:15.330]  I just realized, uh, we have a, uh, a phone.
[17:15.630 --> 17:20.270]  We can call the hotel right now and see what greets people when, when they try to connect.
[17:20.390 --> 17:21.750]  Kyle, do you think that's something you could work out?
[17:22.750 --> 17:24.810]  Because we use the phone for overtime.
[17:25.010 --> 17:31.750]  And by the way, folks, if you want to call us, you can call us just not during this part because we're not in the studio and we have no control over the phone.
[17:32.170 --> 17:33.970]  And, uh, more importantly, the delay system.
[17:34.410 --> 17:36.170]  Uh, but we do have a phone here.
[17:36.430 --> 17:37.570]  We have overtime at eight o'clock.
[17:37.750 --> 17:39.010]  Do you want tone or pulse?
[17:39.250 --> 17:40.010]  It doesn't matter.
[17:40.150 --> 17:42.350]  Well, tone because we might have to hit some, some numbers after.
[17:42.910 --> 17:47.910]  So, uh, we're going to call Pennsylvania six, five thousand, which is a famous number.
[17:48.110 --> 17:48.330]  Ready?
[17:48.510 --> 17:49.010]  Yeah, go ahead.
[17:54.770 --> 17:55.570]  This is exciting.
[17:56.710 --> 17:58.890]  Pennsylvania six, five thousand.
[17:59.730 --> 18:06.910]  Thank you for calling New York's Hotel Pennsylvania, an Energy Star-awarded property and the world's most popular hotel.
[18:07.010 --> 18:15.090]  We're conveniently located at 401 7th Avenue at 33rd Street, directly across from Penn Station and Madison Square Garden.
[18:15.090 --> 18:25.350]  If you are calling about booking reservations, you may choose to access our website at www.hotelpen.com for real-time bookings 24 hours a day.
[18:25.570 --> 18:26.450]  Seven days a week.
[18:26.750 --> 18:29.730]  And for information about our packages and specials.
[18:29.890 --> 18:35.750]  If you know the extension of the party you would like to reach, please dial it now or select from the following options.
[18:36.110 --> 18:38.450]  For room reservations, please press one.
[18:38.670 --> 18:39.410]  Press one.
[18:44.000 --> 18:46.180]  Please hold on while I try that extension.
[18:46.560 --> 18:47.640]  Today and save.
[18:53.020 --> 18:54.180]  Oh, maybe they're open.
[18:59.790 --> 19:02.710]  The number you are trying to reach is out of service.
[19:05.590 --> 19:06.490]  And there you go.
[19:07.310 --> 19:08.450]  That is sobering.
[19:08.730 --> 19:10.530]  That is very, very sobering.
[19:12.290 --> 19:14.410]  It's like somebody just walked away and unplugged it.
[19:14.510 --> 19:15.470]  That's horrible.
[19:15.590 --> 19:19.390]  Anyway, so that was a negative part of our trip to New York, seeing that.
[19:19.470 --> 19:22.810]  I hope that situation gets resolved somehow.
[19:22.810 --> 19:24.170]  I hope people come to their senses.
[19:24.530 --> 19:26.190]  Literally thousands of people work there.
[19:26.950 --> 19:28.930]  And some of the best people around.
[19:29.210 --> 19:30.670]  They really are awesome people.
[19:30.870 --> 19:32.630]  And I hope those jobs can be saved.
[19:32.710 --> 19:33.130]  Go ahead, Gila.
[19:33.750 --> 19:47.730]  I was going to say, I did, per the recorded instructions, check out hotelpen.com, which is still running fairly normally, except that on the homepage, there's a little banner that says we're closed due to COVID-19.
[19:48.050 --> 19:53.050]  And then there are steps that they're outlining about how they're handling COVID-19.
[19:53.290 --> 19:57.330]  And they put in hand sanitizers and told their staff to stop hugging people.
[19:58.210 --> 20:00.490]  Yeah, but except their staff is no longer there.
[20:00.690 --> 20:01.670]  Yeah, they're closed, closed.
[20:02.510 --> 20:03.690]  No, I understand that.
[20:03.690 --> 20:05.390]  But per the website, you wouldn't know.
[20:05.570 --> 20:06.230]  Yeah, that's true.
[20:06.250 --> 20:08.130]  I don't think it's been updated in six months.
[20:08.370 --> 20:08.670]  Yes, Rob?
[20:09.610 --> 20:20.290]  This is also a bit of telecom history, because as people might know, I think Pennsylvania 6-5000 holds a record for being the longest phone number in service, or one of them anyway.
[20:21.030 --> 20:32.050]  You know, it was that when Glenn Miller wrote the tune, and it's still Pennsylvania 6-5000 if you translate, you know, PE 6-5000 to modern numbers and use the area code, which is Manhattan 212.
[20:32.310 --> 20:35.410]  And here's a bit of trivia for those people.
[20:36.130 --> 20:39.570]  Okay, is that your toddler cold there?
[20:39.830 --> 20:40.210]  Okay.
[20:41.010 --> 20:47.050]  The second place number is the WBAI pledge line, 212-209-2950.
[20:47.050 --> 20:47.570]  That's right.
[20:47.610 --> 20:48.210]  We got it back.
[20:48.210 --> 20:50.370]  I had a long fight, and we got the number back.
[20:50.510 --> 20:55.710]  If you call that number now, you can pledge and support WBAI, support this radio station, support this radio show.
[20:56.570 --> 21:06.350]  Just tell the nice person to pick up the phone that you want to support the station, and tell them how much you'd like to pledge, one-time pledge, monthly pledge, all sorts of different things.
[21:06.410 --> 21:08.510]  You can also go to GiveToWBAI.org.
[21:08.850 --> 21:16.530]  Keep this voice of freedom alive, and keep people away who try to lock the doors and take it over.
[21:16.530 --> 21:18.030]  It happens every now and then.
[21:18.190 --> 21:19.950]  It's like a pandemic of sorts.
[21:19.950 --> 21:21.290]  We call it the Pacifica pandemic.
[21:21.770 --> 21:23.230]  Or a telenovela.
[21:23.750 --> 21:24.910]  Sort of like that, too.
[21:25.990 --> 21:33.470]  Hey, one of our listeners called us, actually, after the show last week on overtime.
[21:34.070 --> 21:49.930]  And this is the kind of thing that we're talking about when we say you can participate in the radio show, yeah, if you call after the show, you can talk to us, and we can actually get involved in things that you're involved in.
[21:50.890 --> 21:52.110]  Except I lost...
[21:52.110 --> 21:52.930]  I lost...
[21:52.930 --> 21:54.530]  Did I give you a piece of paper, Kyle?
[21:55.330 --> 21:56.330]  Oh, oh, yeah.
[21:56.570 --> 21:56.990]  Give me that.
[21:57.130 --> 21:57.670]  You need that?
[21:57.890 --> 21:58.250]  Yes.
[21:58.490 --> 21:58.870]  Damn it.
[21:59.270 --> 22:02.410]  I've been looking all over the place for it, and you had the paper that I needed.
[22:02.410 --> 22:05.030]  This is what our listener wrote to us.
[22:05.470 --> 22:13.370]  I called you on Off the Hook Overtime this evening, asking if you might help me with a petition for the disabled.
[22:13.750 --> 22:14.810]  And this is important.
[22:15.730 --> 22:21.570]  The situation that our listener is going through involves home health aides.
[22:23.050 --> 22:30.810]  And the issue is that she doesn't know if they're vaccinated for COVID-19 when they come to her house.
[22:32.190 --> 22:35.150]  And she's getting difficulty finding out that information.
[22:35.430 --> 22:37.810]  I find the situation to be completely abhorrent.
[22:38.350 --> 22:50.650]  I did a little bit of research into this, and I know there are people out there who know a hell of a lot more, hopefully can write to us, OTH at 2600.com, with more information or perhaps be part of Overtime later when, no doubt, we'll talk about this some more.
[22:51.570 --> 23:03.430]  But according to a New York Times article from a couple of months ago, this is a question that many long-term care employers, from individual families to big national companies, are confronting as vaccines become more available.
[23:04.210 --> 23:09.570]  In a pandemic, can they require vaccination for those who care for very vulnerable older adults?
[23:09.750 --> 23:10.290]  And should they?
[23:10.870 --> 23:12.590]  Well, some employers aren't waiting.
[23:13.410 --> 23:22.770]  Atria Senior Living, which is one of the nation's largest assisted living chains, announced that by May 1st, all staff members must be fully vaccinated.
[23:23.390 --> 23:26.310]  Silverado, a small chain of dementia care homes.
[23:27.210 --> 23:27.730]  Wow.
[23:28.050 --> 23:29.030]  Dementia care homes.
[23:29.110 --> 23:30.590]  A chain of dementia care homes.
[23:31.330 --> 23:33.090]  It's just a weird phrase to say.
[23:33.750 --> 23:37.050]  Mostly on the West Coast, mandated vaccination by March 1st.
[23:37.150 --> 23:41.850]  Juniper Communities, which operates 22 facilities in four states, has also adopted a mandate.
[23:42.050 --> 23:50.410]  We felt it was the best way to protect people, not just our residents, but our team members and their families, said Lynn Katzman, Juniper's chief executive.
[23:50.690 --> 23:56.010]  Of the company's nearly 1,300 employees, about 30 individuals have self-terminated.
[23:56.390 --> 23:56.990]  Wow.
[23:57.190 --> 24:01.550]  That means quit in corporate speak, but that sounds so ominous.
[24:02.170 --> 24:05.190]  They have self-terminated because of the vaccine requirement.
[24:05.370 --> 24:08.710]  Now, Juniper's experience supports what public health experts have said for years.
[24:09.090 --> 24:16.570]  Vaccine mandates, like those that many health care organizations have established for the flu vaccine remain controversial, but they do increase vaccination rates.
[24:16.830 --> 24:27.790]  As of February 25th, 97.7% of Juniper residents had received two vaccine doses, and so had 96% of its staff members, which makes sense.
[24:28.010 --> 24:38.450]  A national recruiting platform for healthcare companies, MyCNAjobs.com, last month polled 250 companions, aides, and nursing assistants in facilities and in home care.
[24:38.490 --> 24:40.330]  It interviews thousands more daily.
[24:40.330 --> 24:46.370]  It estimates that 35% plan to be vaccinated, 20% do not, and more than 40% remain unsure.
[24:46.370 --> 24:48.130]  That is abysmal.
[24:48.490 --> 24:49.310]  Absolutely terrible.
[24:50.130 --> 24:55.330]  These workers can't distance from the older people they help with tasks like bathing, dressing, and toileting.
[24:55.670 --> 25:05.030]  As they enter and leave facilities and private homes, often working multiple jobs, these workers can spread the coronavirus, and they and their families are likewise vulnerable to its dangers.
[25:05.510 --> 25:09.790]  Now, experts say it's probably legal for employers to make vaccination a condition of employment.
[25:09.790 --> 25:16.110]  The Federal Equal Opportunity Employment Commission has agreed, so long as mandates permit health and religious exemptions.
[25:16.310 --> 25:23.650]  A University of Pennsylvania analysis found last fall that nationally about half of American adults would consider employer mandates acceptable.
[25:24.130 --> 25:31.550]  It's unwise to mandate a vaccine while it's under an emergency use authorization, as the three vaccines in use in the United States are.
[25:31.550 --> 25:35.190]  That's according to Lawrence Gostin, a law professor at Georgetown University.
[25:35.570 --> 25:50.730]  Now, because mandates during emergency use authorization, known as EUA, could bring legal challenges, he advised waiting for full Food and Drug Administration approval, which could come fairly soon, actually, for Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.
[25:51.270 --> 25:59.850]  After that, he said, I would expect state or local governments might mandate that people working in health care be vaccinated, they would have the right to do that.
[25:59.990 --> 26:02.010]  Ethically, he said, though, it's entirely justified.
[26:02.010 --> 26:08.570]  People have the right to take chances with their own health, but they absolutely do not have the right to endanger others.
[26:10.110 --> 26:17.590]  Now, some individuals who hire home care aides privately say they will require future candidates to be vaccinated.
[26:17.830 --> 26:26.710]  And that's something that I think our listener needs to keep in mind, that she has the right to insist that anybody who comes into her home be vaccinated.
[26:26.950 --> 26:33.690]  Now, from the Chicago Tribune, when Melissa Fisher learned she'd have to get vaccinated to keep her job, she tried to fight it.
[26:34.150 --> 26:39.530]  Fisher works in an assisted living and memory care facility run by Chicago-based Enlivant.
[26:40.090 --> 26:43.710]  She gave the company a letter from her pastor explaining her religious objection.
[26:43.710 --> 26:48.150]  She also volunteered to get tested for COVID-19 each week rather than be vaccinated.
[26:48.570 --> 26:59.830]  But Enlivant stood firm, telling her in an email that her request to forego vaccination was denied because of the nature of her job and the threat to yourself and others from remaining unvaccinated.
[27:00.310 --> 27:03.190]  And Fisher expects her last day will be Monday.
[27:03.430 --> 27:07.970]  I just thought they would honor my freedom of religion, my rights, but apparently we don't have that right anymore.
[27:09.470 --> 27:10.530]  Yeah, but you do.
[27:10.670 --> 27:11.870]  You do have that right.
[27:12.010 --> 27:13.110]  You just don't have the right.
[27:13.110 --> 27:21.570]  You know, I have the right to, you know, to launch a rocket for Elon Musk, you know, but I'm not qualified, really.
[27:21.710 --> 27:23.250]  So I'm not going to get to do that.
[27:23.350 --> 27:30.770]  But I have the right, you know, there's nothing saying that I don't have the right to do that if I'm qualified, if I pass certain tests.
[27:31.030 --> 27:39.090]  And by saying you don't want to get a vaccine and you want to work in home health care, you're not passing a test, you're not passing a test, an important test.
[27:39.950 --> 27:45.330]  Fisher is an apostolic holiness Christian.
[27:46.610 --> 27:49.170]  And Levant has more than 200 facilities across the country.
[27:49.850 --> 27:55.110]  Fisher, who works at an Levant facility in Tennessee, helps residents with daily tasks.
[27:57.010 --> 28:09.730]  Yeah, so basically, she believes requirements to get vaccines could be a first step towards, and I'm quoting her here, towards the mark of the beast, an apocalyptic reference from the book of Revelation.
[28:09.910 --> 28:10.470]  Okay, you know what?
[28:10.510 --> 28:11.770]  You're free to believe all this.
[28:11.770 --> 28:16.810]  But you're believing all of this should not be forced upon other people.
[28:16.930 --> 28:24.570]  Just as you say you don't want other people's beliefs forced on you, that is what you are doing by insisting that you're okay, you're safe.
[28:24.650 --> 28:27.770]  I mean, she says she would never endanger the people for whom she cares.
[28:27.910 --> 28:29.530]  She wears masks and gloves.
[28:30.790 --> 28:32.210]  It's not enough.
[28:32.630 --> 28:34.150]  And how do you explain this?
[28:34.910 --> 28:42.010]  She doesn't think it makes sense for Anne Levant to require her to get vaccinated when outside health care workers and visitors are allowed in the facility without proof of vaccination.
[28:43.830 --> 28:45.470]  I understand that I'm dealing with the elderly.
[28:45.650 --> 28:46.390]  I don't take that lightly.
[28:46.490 --> 28:47.050]  They're my family.
[28:47.210 --> 28:49.170]  I'm not going to do anything to jeopardize them.
[28:49.990 --> 28:50.550]  That's right.
[28:50.550 --> 28:53.270]  You won't, because she's leaving on June 8th.
[28:56.370 --> 29:03.890]  So it's, you know, a crazy conversation we have to have, but science, medicine, these are important things, and religion is important to people, too.
[29:03.950 --> 29:04.430]  I get that.
[29:04.550 --> 29:15.470]  But just like, you know, the woman who was in charge of, or was it a guy, in charge of granting marriage licenses, who objected to gay marriage licenses, well, you know what?
[29:15.570 --> 29:18.350]  You have the wrong job, because that is your job to do that.
[29:18.430 --> 29:22.550]  And if it's something that conflicts with your religion, you need to be reassigned to something else.
[29:23.290 --> 29:25.510]  It's not a hard concept to grasp.
[29:28.170 --> 29:39.730]  Yeah, it's right up there with people, you know, objecting, people who work at, like, say, a pharmacy objecting to the fact that they have to sell people, say, birth control items when their own beliefs don't allow for such things.
[29:39.930 --> 29:43.210]  But, yeah, you're the person there whose responsibility that is.
[29:43.210 --> 29:50.430]  And no one's forcing you to do these things, you know, no one's forcing you to put yourself at risk.
[29:50.690 --> 29:58.730]  But at the same time, like, with an issue like vaccination, there's an old saying, like, your right to swing your fist ends somewhere before it reaches my face.
[29:59.430 --> 30:04.930]  And when you go out there unvaccinated, you are putting everyone around you at increased risk.
[30:05.130 --> 30:06.490]  That is a scientific fact.
[30:06.630 --> 30:07.830]  That is not your feelings.
[30:07.950 --> 30:08.990]  That is not your religious beliefs.
[30:09.170 --> 30:10.490]  That is how this works.
[30:10.710 --> 30:11.510]  We know this.
[30:11.510 --> 30:21.650]  And there are so many other aspects of our lives that we can apply that to, you know, waving guns around, just acting in an unsafe manner, driving unsafely.
[30:22.030 --> 30:29.150]  You know, you have rights, you have privileges, you have things that if you're able to do them, you should be able to do them.
[30:29.510 --> 30:33.890]  But when you start acting irresponsibly and hurting other people, you lose those rights.
[30:34.550 --> 30:36.370]  And that's just the way it is.
[30:36.450 --> 30:37.450]  That's how it has to be.
[30:37.550 --> 30:39.470]  Otherwise, society can't function.
[30:39.470 --> 30:43.630]  Anyway, let me read this petition and people can get involved if they want to.
[30:44.210 --> 30:47.510]  I am disabled and at high risk for severe consequences or death.
[30:47.650 --> 30:52.170]  If I were to get COVID, I need the help of a home health care aide who is fully vaccinated.
[30:54.150 --> 31:00.110]  HHC agencies claim they can't ask their aides to be vaccinated or disclose their vaccination status to me.
[31:00.250 --> 31:01.390]  But this is not so.
[31:02.430 --> 31:04.230]  HHC, that's a hard acronym to say.
[31:04.930 --> 31:08.210]  Agencies are allowed to insist that all employees be vaccinated.
[31:08.210 --> 31:13.650]  They can ask aides to sign a confidentiality waiver to let them to let me know the vaccination status of an aide.
[31:14.010 --> 31:19.190]  As it is, I have not been able to get an HHC aide since January 3rd.
[31:19.190 --> 31:21.590]  And my need is dire.
[31:21.910 --> 31:28.550]  I am only one of many vulnerable people who have the right to be assured that the help they need will, in fact, not endanger them.
[31:28.790 --> 31:36.910]  Although HHC agencies claim all of their aides are properly trained in how to wear masks, I have witnessed this is not so.
[31:37.170 --> 31:41.690]  E.g., people climb the stairs and as soon as they get in the door, take off their mask to pant.
[31:42.890 --> 31:47.950]  They also claim that having had their temperature taken earlier in the day means they are healthy.
[31:48.330 --> 31:53.270]  Anyone who is actually serious about their client's safety would be willing to be vaccinated and to say so.
[31:53.430 --> 31:57.410]  An agency that is serious about client's safety would require this of all employees.
[31:57.630 --> 32:01.110]  Please pass whatever legislation you can to help make this happen.
[32:01.270 --> 32:08.230]  And the link for this petition, change.org slash disabled need vaccinated aides.
[32:08.470 --> 32:09.930]  I don't know if it's case sensitive.
[32:09.930 --> 32:16.210]  If it is disabled, need vaccinated aides, each word is capitalized and aides is spelled A-I-D-E-S.
[32:16.610 --> 32:20.110]  Again, change.org slash disabled need vaccinated aides.
[32:20.810 --> 32:23.510]  And yeah, this is, you know, I had no idea this was an issue.
[32:23.590 --> 32:26.370]  I just thought common sense was prevailing here.
[32:26.470 --> 32:28.110]  And of course, this wouldn't be a problem.
[32:28.210 --> 32:32.970]  But I should stop making that mistake because obviously it is.
[32:33.110 --> 32:41.490]  It really shows there's like variability, even in a sector that deals with people who are at specific risk for a situation like this.
[32:41.630 --> 32:45.170]  And the seriousness of the pandemic is no less serious.
[32:45.170 --> 32:52.190]  We have options and it's a sort of relative freeing up and opening up, so to speak.
[32:52.190 --> 33:00.230]  But I would say it's still a sort of a situation that demands a certain amount of caution.
[33:01.650 --> 33:03.290]  And yeah, I don't know.
[33:03.390 --> 33:13.810]  How are you in healthcare if you're not taking advantage of all the possible things, especially with something like this disease that we're still learning a lot about?
[33:13.810 --> 33:15.850]  We don't know the long-term effects of it.
[33:15.970 --> 33:22.970]  We don't know if there's going to be reemergence in some way or these variants, of course, as have been in the news.
[33:23.170 --> 33:24.130]  So much still.
[33:24.350 --> 33:27.730]  And, you know, we feel like we're experts on this now somehow.
[33:28.050 --> 33:33.350]  There are a lot of intelligent people, well-trained people who make the wrong decision, who reach the wrong conclusions.
[33:33.890 --> 33:36.010]  There is no field that is immune from this.
[33:36.830 --> 33:39.150]  If only there were a vaccine, but there isn't for that.
[33:39.830 --> 33:45.570]  So don't be surprised when somebody who you would think would get it doesn't for one reason or another.
[33:45.730 --> 33:48.050]  And it's very easy to be convinced.
[33:48.330 --> 33:50.370]  And I know we're going to get angry emails from this.
[33:51.230 --> 33:52.030]  It's inevitable.
[33:52.330 --> 33:54.230]  We always seem to get the angry emails.
[33:54.430 --> 33:57.730]  Like, for instance, last week we got an email from somebody.
[33:57.890 --> 33:59.790]  In between the really fantastic ones.
[33:59.910 --> 34:00.930]  Well, I don't know.
[34:01.090 --> 34:03.490]  We seem to get more of the angry ones than the fantastic ones.
[34:03.490 --> 34:07.570]  I don't know if the fantastic people are just doing fantastic things somewhere else, but not writing us letters.
[34:08.030 --> 34:09.210]  Maybe you can write us a letter.
[34:09.350 --> 34:10.630]  OTH at 2600.com.
[34:10.730 --> 34:13.570]  Make us feel like, you know, we're not shouting into the wind here.
[34:14.310 --> 34:16.170]  Okay, here's a letter from Alex.
[34:16.290 --> 34:22.110]  You said it was laughable that the unvaccinated were wearing masks so they won't catch COVID from the vaccinated.
[34:22.890 --> 34:24.850]  Yeah, that was pretty laughable.
[34:24.910 --> 34:26.290]  I thought he didn't think so.
[34:26.610 --> 34:28.970]  You should do your homework before talking.
[34:29.590 --> 34:32.730]  Over 5,000 fully vaccinated people have come down with COVID.
[34:32.730 --> 34:43.750]  And from Pfizer's own official documents, state both inhalation and skin contact will transmit whatever is in the vax from the vaccinated to the unvaccinated, and that the results are devastating.
[34:43.990 --> 34:46.650]  So please inform yourself before opening your mouth.
[34:47.990 --> 34:50.630]  Well, Alex, how...
[34:51.610 --> 34:52.850]  How do I say this nicely?
[34:53.010 --> 34:55.650]  How does this ignorance get so pervasive?
[34:56.250 --> 34:56.750]  How?
[34:57.070 --> 34:57.930]  Well, I know how.
[34:58.090 --> 34:58.550]  I know how.
[34:58.550 --> 35:05.690]  Because, like I said, people that you trust, people that seem to have some kind of stature in the community, say things that are utter nonsense.
[35:06.170 --> 35:10.190]  And whenever somebody does that, many, many more people believe them.
[35:10.570 --> 35:14.450]  So we're not blaming you, Alex, for getting this so incredibly wrong.
[35:15.330 --> 35:17.670]  But understand that this is a huge problem.
[35:17.810 --> 35:21.970]  This is something that so many people are falling victim to.
[35:21.970 --> 35:27.890]  It doesn't take much to look into this, even though you really shouldn't have to.
[35:29.090 --> 35:37.890]  The claim is that people who are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 can shed viral particles from the vaccine and infect unvaccinated people.
[35:40.690 --> 35:49.730]  And basically, there is an organization known as LifeSite, L-I-F-E-S-I-T-E.
[35:49.890 --> 35:53.110]  They bill themselves as an independent pro-life news outlet.
[35:53.590 --> 35:58.190]  And they have written that people who have received the coronavirus vaccine may still infect others.
[35:58.950 --> 36:14.730]  As these experimental vaccines create spike proteins, vaccinated individuals can shed some of these particles to close contacts, causing disease in them, including in children, says the sub-headline of the article, which has more than 2,000 shares on Facebook.
[36:14.910 --> 36:18.290]  And Facebook, of course, is the other cause of all this.
[36:18.430 --> 36:19.450]  Well, the clearinghouse.
[36:20.190 --> 36:30.930]  As evidence, LifeSite, which was banned from YouTube for repeatedly sharing misinformation about the pandemic, cited an April 26 press release from a group called America's Frontline Doctors.
[36:30.930 --> 36:35.110]  The vaccine produces many trillions of particles of spike proteins in the recipient.
[36:35.250 --> 36:40.050]  Patients who are vaccinated can shed some of these spike protein particles to close contacts.
[36:40.310 --> 36:44.770]  The particles have the ability to create inflammation and disease in these contacts.
[36:45.170 --> 36:51.230]  In other words, the spike proteins are pathogenetic disease-causing, just like the full virus.
[36:52.550 --> 37:05.090]  So when you run a little fact check on this, which, you know, is not too difficult to do, fatality rates among fully vaccinated people who develop COVID-19, that is misleading, according to experts.
[37:06.150 --> 37:13.730]  Now, the information, which comes from an official sounding group, makes it seem like there's little benefit and potentially some harm to getting vaccinated against COVID-19.
[37:14.190 --> 37:15.910]  That could not be further from the truth.
[37:16.030 --> 37:24.290]  Public health authorities say three coronavirus vaccines approved for emergency use in the United States are safe and effective at preventing serious COVID-19 infections.
[37:24.830 --> 37:29.250]  Americans who receive those vaccines do not shed particles of the virus or the vaccine.
[37:29.710 --> 37:32.450]  For one thing, the virus is not a part of the vaccine.
[37:32.610 --> 37:33.590]  So how would that even happen?
[37:33.970 --> 37:44.630]  While there's a small chance COVID-19 vaccinated people can still get sick and spread the virus, called breakthrough cases, research suggests they are less likely to transmit the virus in unvaccinated people.
[37:44.750 --> 37:52.990]  And I can also add that if you do get sick and you're vaccinated, the sickness will be much, much less serious than if you were not vaccinated.
[37:52.990 --> 37:55.110]  That has been proven over and over again.
[37:56.450 --> 38:00.330]  America's frontline doctors has previously spread misinformation about the pandemic.
[38:00.330 --> 38:00.990]  That's their name.
[38:01.110 --> 38:01.670]  That's not who they are.
[38:01.790 --> 38:02.850]  America's frontline doctors.
[38:03.310 --> 38:09.370]  They spread misinformation, including the false claim that hydroxychloroquine is a cure for COVID-19.
[38:09.370 --> 38:10.330]  It is not.
[38:12.190 --> 38:16.850]  We can just go on and on about this, but I don't want to take so much airtime in just stating the obvious.
[38:17.470 --> 38:33.870]  The claim basically that this listener repeats misconstrues the Pfizer trial protocol, the claim that people vaccinated against COVID-19 can shed viral particles and infect others stems from a misunderstanding of documentation in the Pfizer trial.
[38:33.870 --> 38:50.090]  When asked for evidence to support the central claim in the LifeSite article, author Patrick Delaney pointed to a tweet from Dr. Simone Gold, claiming Pfizer itself had acknowledged people near vaccinated persons could be exposed by inhalation or skin contact.
[38:51.810 --> 38:58.330]  Gold's April 29 tweet does not prove Pfizer told clinical trial participants they could expose unvaccinated people to COVID-19.
[38:58.330 --> 39:07.370]  It shows a subsection of the company's trial protocol that lays out what should happen if a participant becomes pregnant or comes in contact with a pregnant person.
[39:07.390 --> 39:09.670]  That's common practice for clinical trials.
[39:09.810 --> 39:14.550]  During clinical development of most products, pregnant women are actively excluded from trials.
[39:14.730 --> 39:23.250]  And if pregnancy does occur during the trial, the usual procedure is to discontinue treatment and drop the patient from the study, although her pregnancy is typically followed to term.
[39:24.610 --> 39:31.490]  So, while Pfizer's vaccine was not tested on pregnant individuals, the company and public health authorities say it's safe for them to get it.
[39:33.650 --> 39:37.910]  So, looking this over on a number of different sites, I haven't been looking at USA Today.
[39:37.950 --> 39:38.870]  There was another one on Reuters.
[39:40.430 --> 39:44.550]  Basically, the conclusion is that this is completely 100% false.
[39:44.770 --> 39:47.790]  Something we probably already knew, but here it is again.
[39:47.790 --> 39:56.830]  The claim that vaccinated people can shed viral particles from the vaccine and infect unvaccinated people is false based on our research and the research of so many others.
[39:57.410 --> 40:00.870]  None of the three COVID-19 vaccines approved for emergency use in the U.S.
[40:01.230 --> 40:07.550]  contain live coronavirus and spike proteins cannot be transmitted to another person, meaning there's nothing for patients to shed.
[40:08.010 --> 40:15.590]  The claim is based on a misrepresentation of routine clinical trial protocol by a group of doctors that has previously spread misinformation about the pandemic.
[40:15.590 --> 40:16.830]  We should stop listening to them.
[40:16.830 --> 40:22.190]  You know what this does prove, E, if you think about it, is that email works.
[40:22.610 --> 40:23.650]  We got their message.
[40:24.630 --> 40:26.230]  Yeah, yeah, email works.
[40:26.230 --> 40:27.010]  That's for sure.
[40:27.230 --> 40:27.950]  Alex, did you have something?
[40:28.950 --> 40:49.570]  Yeah, I mean, bringing this all back down to a topic we often address on the show, hacking and cybersecurity, too, I think, look, assuming that some weaker version of this conspiratorial theory is even true, or let's just, you know, take a fact that that is true.
[40:49.770 --> 40:52.990]  Let's say you can still get the virus if you have the vaccine, right?
[40:53.110 --> 40:54.450]  You know, they're 95% effective.
[40:54.650 --> 40:55.610]  You can get the virus.
[40:55.610 --> 40:57.850]  You can spread it to other people.
[40:57.850 --> 41:05.010]  But here, what we're doing, what the vaccine is, to put it in cybersecurity terms, is a form of risk mitigation.
[41:05.690 --> 41:06.370]  We are...
[41:07.150 --> 41:14.630]  The vaccine is essentially a compensating control for a security vulnerability here in our immune system, right?
[41:14.630 --> 41:19.510]  The vaccine is going to prevent a massive catastrophic breach, right?
[41:19.510 --> 41:22.770]  So, to bring it back to another analogy, right?
[41:22.850 --> 41:34.090]  If you are a CISO and you implement, let's say, 2FA, two-factor authentication, on all of your users' inboxes, that doesn't mean that you're never, ever going to have a breach.
[41:34.490 --> 41:36.790]  It doesn't mean you're 100% safe.
[41:36.910 --> 41:46.330]  It just means that you have taken some safety precautions, some protective measures, to reduce the risk that something bad is going to happen to your company, to your users in the future.
[41:46.590 --> 41:47.650]  Nothing's 100%.
[41:48.470 --> 41:50.770]  And that's what the vaccine is, as well.
[41:50.910 --> 41:55.790]  I mean, it is a risk-reducing measure for yourself, for other people.
[41:56.010 --> 42:05.330]  And to a very large extent, I think we need to come to grips with the fact that we have a duty to others, not just to ourselves.
[42:05.510 --> 42:07.250]  Stop being such a damn narcissist.
[42:08.490 --> 42:08.990]  Yeah.
[42:09.190 --> 42:15.230]  I think that's kind of where we have gotten to as a society, as a culture, just thinking of me first.
[42:15.230 --> 42:28.790]  I want to drive the biggest vehicle and be aggressive and, you know, basically take as much for myself before anyone else gets anything and listen to whatever propaganda I want to believe.
[42:29.210 --> 42:31.150]  And facts be damned.
[42:31.530 --> 42:32.310]  Go ahead, Rob.
[42:33.470 --> 42:37.930]  Yeah, and people have asked about this, especially when we talk about it on this program.
[42:38.910 --> 42:39.570]  Excuse me.
[42:40.270 --> 42:43.370]  That, like, this is the hacker radio show, off the hook.
[42:43.530 --> 42:44.350]  We're a bunch of hackers here.
[42:44.570 --> 42:50.290]  How does just going along with what everyone says about vaccines apply in the hacker mindset?
[42:50.290 --> 43:05.750]  And I would put forth that this is how we do things in the hacker world is, to compare it again to, like, InfoSec, when you need to be able to do something and you don't know how to do it, you go out there, you find sources with the information, you consider the sources,
[43:06.010 --> 43:12.450]  you consider the information, you find all the data that's out there, you go with the conclusions that make sense.
[43:12.570 --> 43:15.550]  And the scientific conclusions with this make sense.
[43:15.550 --> 43:26.890]  It's the sources which are, you know, trustable, the sources which are staffed by people who know what they're doing and, you know, maybe do this sort of thing for a living.
[43:27.510 --> 43:40.430]  Those are the people who have the best information at this point on how we can all do our part in dealing with this in a responsible manner, in a way that will, you know, hopefully see an end to this thing for everybody.
[43:40.990 --> 43:45.310]  And so, yes, I think it's very hacker-like to go get your vaccines.
[43:45.950 --> 43:53.010]  And to wear your masks and to wash your hands and to do the things that we all need to be doing to take care of ourselves and one another.
[43:53.310 --> 43:56.830]  Yeah, you know, we are not blindly following anyone's directions.
[43:57.330 --> 43:58.350]  Hackers don't do that.
[43:58.770 --> 43:59.970]  We weigh the evidence.
[43:59.970 --> 44:01.230]  We look at the science.
[44:01.350 --> 44:01.850]  We experiment.
[44:02.210 --> 44:04.330]  We hear different circumstances.
[44:04.890 --> 44:09.470]  And sometimes we agree with the advised protocol.
[44:09.710 --> 44:10.230]  It does happen.
[44:15.550 --> 44:20.070]  There are many times where, you know, what you are advised to do is the right thing.
[44:20.210 --> 44:21.590]  There are other times when it's not the right thing.
[44:21.690 --> 44:25.550]  When that happens, we question and we have evidence to support our theses.
[44:26.850 --> 44:34.430]  In this particular case, you can argue with the science, but you'll just make a fool of yourself and probably get sick in the process.
[44:35.170 --> 44:37.150]  This is something that obviously...
[44:37.150 --> 44:38.170]  I mean, I just...
[44:38.170 --> 44:44.510]  I can't believe we have to have this conversation, but look around, look at all the people who have suffered as a result of this.
[44:44.690 --> 44:53.070]  You know, the millions who have died, the many more who have been forever altered in one way or another.
[44:53.770 --> 44:54.770]  It's not fake.
[44:54.950 --> 44:59.650]  It's not some kind of crazy conspiracy or something the media made up.
[44:59.650 --> 45:12.330]  And if you find yourself being taken in by that, what you're looking at is something far more insidious, where people are able to be manipulated through powerful sources.
[45:13.250 --> 45:14.530]  And that's something to study.
[45:14.630 --> 45:18.090]  That's something I think we really need to figure out a solution for.
[45:18.270 --> 45:18.810]  Yes, Gila, go ahead.
[45:19.250 --> 45:27.130]  I was thinking about vaccinations in general and how, you know, people are kind of extrapolating, you know, no vaccine should be required.
[45:27.130 --> 45:36.350]  My mom does some volunteer work with elementary school students and they were talking about vaccination and she said to them, do you know what polio is?
[45:36.970 --> 45:41.890]  And they had no idea because it was such a non-factor for them.
[45:42.690 --> 45:50.370]  And I think about how diseases that had basically been eradicated have come back because people refused to vaccinate.
[45:50.610 --> 45:53.110]  Think about the measles outbreaks in the past few years.
[45:53.110 --> 46:02.070]  And are we ever going to get to a point where people don't, you know, in 50 years, will kids have heard of COVID-19?
[46:02.970 --> 46:04.250]  Will it have gone away?
[46:04.470 --> 46:06.150]  Will it be a thing that people are hearing about?
[46:06.690 --> 46:13.950]  And I can't imagine people getting on board in the same way that they did with the...
[46:13.950 --> 46:18.310]  Like if polio happened now, we'd all be in iron lungs.
[46:18.990 --> 46:30.290]  Yeah, that definitely is a possibility given the current mindset of just distrust and believing what you want to believe and nothing else.
[46:30.750 --> 46:36.650]  I dare say there are people today who don't know what COVID is because they refuse to acknowledge that it exists.
[46:36.910 --> 46:39.510]  And that is simply shocking.
[46:39.850 --> 46:43.730]  So I guess, you know, the conclusion is, yeah, listen.
[46:43.970 --> 46:45.070]  Listen to the scientists.
[46:45.190 --> 46:45.750]  Listen to the doctors.
[46:45.750 --> 46:56.270]  They know what they're talking about and get a vaccine so that you can do things freely and, you know, enjoy life because we've all gotten it.
[46:56.370 --> 46:59.510]  We're all doing fine and we're all able to walk around.
[46:59.630 --> 47:02.570]  And yeah, I know, you know, people can claim they have it.
[47:02.770 --> 47:09.250]  You know, they've gotten the vaccine and move around, but at great risk to themselves and to others.
[47:09.470 --> 47:12.190]  And it's completely irresponsible.
[47:12.190 --> 47:20.270]  It's incredibly easy to get the vaccine now, go online, their phone numbers, public service announcements constantly.
[47:20.650 --> 47:23.710]  You can walk into a drugstore and probably get it today.
[47:24.010 --> 47:27.890]  And we'd love to hear from somebody who listened to us and said, you know what?
[47:27.890 --> 47:32.710]  I got the vaccine because I listened to what you were saying and it made sense.
[47:33.410 --> 47:39.810]  I know we'll get 50 angry letters from people accusing us of being shills for, you know, one thing or another.
[47:40.230 --> 47:46.110]  But we really want to see people get past this and be healthy.
[47:47.450 --> 48:02.530]  OK, US government wanted us to pass along an announcement that they were not in any way behind the disruption of that Russian hacker rings computer network in the wake of the cyber attack on the fuel line, the Colonial Pipeline.
[48:03.990 --> 48:07.910]  Apparently, they're a little worried that the hackers might think that they had something to do with it.
[48:07.910 --> 48:13.710]  The shuttering of Darkseid's operation has led to complaining by...
[48:13.710 --> 48:14.870]  I can't believe this.
[48:15.270 --> 48:19.970]  Complaining by hackers affiliated with a group who claim they have not been paid by the ringleaders.
[48:20.630 --> 48:22.290]  Wow, my heart bleeds.
[48:22.630 --> 48:24.170]  And these are not hackers, these are criminals.
[48:24.370 --> 48:35.830]  I'm reading the story from the Washington Post, who really should know better, but people who go around spreading ransomware and getting paid for it, no, that's not what hackers are about in any way.
[48:36.070 --> 48:36.790]  Right, Alex?
[48:37.910 --> 48:38.730]  Well, absolutely.
[48:39.070 --> 48:48.690]  I mean, it's certainly one of these all too frequent instances of people conflating hacker and criminal yet again.
[48:48.970 --> 49:05.070]  But what's interesting to me here, though, is for Darkseid, which is the ransomware group that was responsible for the Colonial Pipeline ransomware event, what we talked about last week is relevant here in that they were offering this as a service, ransomware as a service.
[49:05.070 --> 49:27.470]  So these guys that were left in the dark are essentially the criminals that were performing the initial compromises of these victims, the ones that would breach the systems, maintain some kind of persistent access, and then provide that access to the Darkseid group so that they could then initiate ransomware,
[49:27.590 --> 49:39.230]  that they could start encrypting their files in one way or another, perhaps moving around laterally, finding, you know, the high-grade ore, and then deploying ransomware on that particular network.
[49:39.550 --> 49:57.370]  But from a legal perspective here, I mean, this is a, you know, first-day contracts law type of principles, is that even if they had some kind of agreement with Darkseid that they were going to get paid a certain percentage of the ransom that was going to be paid for that ransomware event,
[49:57.610 --> 49:59.250]  that's an illegal contract.
[49:59.310 --> 50:03.250]  It's a contract for something illegal, and you cannot enforce that.
[50:03.410 --> 50:19.730]  So, you know, if Rob has a contract for, you know, me to buy 10 pounds of cocaine, hypothetically, of course, and I renege on that contract, he can't go into court and try to demand performance, because it's an illegal activity.
[50:19.970 --> 50:25.330]  So these guys are, are, um, what we would say, and many years ago, poop out of luck.
[50:26.290 --> 50:33.310]  Yeah, it's like, it's like, you know, trying to sue organized crime for not, uh, hiring more diverse, um, uh, people to work for them.
[50:33.590 --> 50:36.150]  No, but they, they, they just find other ways.
[50:36.150 --> 50:47.650]  I mean, that's, that's why, that's how, like, you know, you have gunplay or, or other forms of retribution in, in, uh, illegal activity, right?
[50:47.650 --> 50:48.710]  Well, that's not right either.
[50:49.390 --> 50:57.250]  Um, anyway, last Thursday, DarkSide announced that it lost access to its servers, which is where it housed and displayed data, uh, stolen from its victims.
[50:57.590 --> 51:06.510]  Um, and in addition, and this is kind of sad, uh, they said in a blog post, funds from the payment server belonging to us and our clients were withdrawn to an unknown account.
[51:07.950 --> 51:19.830]  I mean, I don't know who I'm supposed to feel bad for here, but it just means there's another set of criminals that are taking advantage of this set of criminals, and the saga just keeps going on, and I guess there'll be a Mr. Robot sequel or something like that.
[51:20.590 --> 51:27.090]  Um, other hacker news, hackers interrupted an Israeli TV broadcast with a pro-Palestinian message saying Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Palestine.
[51:27.730 --> 51:28.870]  All right, that's kind of interesting.
[51:29.130 --> 51:31.170]  So, um, that's one way to get the message out.
[51:31.450 --> 51:32.170]  All of Jerusalem?
[51:32.510 --> 51:35.970]  Well, I mean, you know, I guess, uh, well, why not?
[51:36.090 --> 51:38.510]  It's, it's, you know, being taken in the other direction.
[51:38.710 --> 51:39.370]  So, um, yeah.
[51:39.430 --> 51:40.170]  Going big, huh?
[51:40.670 --> 51:43.050]  You got to go big, especially if you're going to take over a TV channel.
[51:43.130 --> 51:49.830]  If you take over a TV channel, you got to say, uh, uh, a strong yet simple message and, and reach a lot of people that way.
[51:49.910 --> 51:52.670]  Unfortunately, I can't get any more details other than one line on this story.
[51:52.790 --> 51:56.190]  So, it's being, um, it's being subdued a bit.
[51:56.630 --> 52:01.590]  Um, we're going to have to continue talking about all this and other things, um, overtime.
[52:02.110 --> 52:05.910]  Let me tell people how to get to overtime because the hour just goes by so fast.
[52:06.370 --> 52:16.330]  Uh, we, uh, are on YouTube and if you go to channel 2600, that's one word and the number 2600, you should find us there starting at eight o'clock.
[52:16.490 --> 52:24.290]  If you go to 2600.com, the website, you will see, uh, a little slide up on the top with a link that you can click on and you'll go there as well.
[52:24.430 --> 52:31.330]  And then you can call us, uh, at our special phone number, which is 802-321-4225, which spells hack.
[52:31.570 --> 52:43.010]  Hey, I want to, um, I want to leave with, um, uh, a song that I think, uh, was, was, um, not, um, given what it deserved at the Eurovision Awards, uh, this past weekend.
[52:43.410 --> 52:50.990]  It's the Dutch, um, entry, actually from, uh, a Surinamese singer-songwriter named Django McRoy.
[52:51.110 --> 52:52.330]  It's called Birth of a New Age.
[52:52.550 --> 52:56.590]  It's, um, uh, written about George Floyd and about Black Lives Matter.
[52:56.930 --> 52:59.450]  And it really is inspirational.
[52:59.890 --> 53:03.050]  And I think it could be a hit everywhere it's played.
[53:03.230 --> 53:05.350]  So let's see if that happens here.
[53:06.790 --> 53:15.390]  We will see you next week here on WBAI and we'll see you in a few minutes on Overtime.
[53:16.490 --> 53:17.050]  Good night.
[53:22.050 --> 53:26.550]  Skin as rich as a starlit night.
[53:26.950 --> 53:28.870]  Your rhythm is rebellion.
[53:29.330 --> 53:31.310]  Your rhythm is rebellion.
[53:32.070 --> 53:36.830]  Deep currents running in the rivers of your eyes.
[53:37.330 --> 53:38.910]  Your rhythm is rebellion.
[53:39.370 --> 53:41.410]  Your rhythm is rebellion.
[53:41.990 --> 53:46.910]  They spat on your ground and they poison your ground.
[53:47.230 --> 53:49.090]  Your rhythm is rebellion.
[53:49.450 --> 53:51.550]  Your rhythm is rebellion.
[53:52.090 --> 53:57.830]  They burned your heroes at the stake, but your voice will let go of their names.
[53:58.090 --> 54:00.110]  This ain't the end, no.
[54:00.690 --> 54:04.210]  It's the birth of a new age.
[54:04.850 --> 54:06.410]  You know I'm broco me.
[54:06.750 --> 54:08.890]  You know I'm broco me.
[54:11.750 --> 54:16.510]  You know I'm broco me.
[54:16.830 --> 54:19.150]  You know I'm broco, bro, com me.
[54:19.530 --> 54:22.930]  You know I'm broco, bro, com me.
[54:25.350 --> 54:29.250]  Soul blazing like a hurricane.
[54:30.330 --> 54:32.010]  Your rhythm is rebellion.
[54:32.630 --> 54:34.490]  Your rhythm is rebellion.
[54:35.410 --> 54:40.110]  Spirit roaring wild like untamed flames.
[54:40.310 --> 54:42.090]  Your rhythm is rebellion.
[54:42.490 --> 54:44.630]  Your rhythm is rebellion.
[54:45.110 --> 54:47.330]  They buried your gods.
[54:47.550 --> 54:49.850]  They imprisoned your thighs.
[54:50.430 --> 54:52.190]  Your rhythm is rebellion.
[54:52.670 --> 54:54.670]  Your rhythm is rebellion.
[54:55.290 --> 55:00.750]  They tried to drain you of your fate, but you are the rage that melts the chains.
[55:01.130 --> 55:06.370]  This ain't the end, No, it's the birth of a new
[55:09.470 --> 55:09.690]  age.
[55:10.090 --> 55:17.790]  We are the fruit, the dawn and the legacy, of every forgotten revolutionary, born in resilience, proud like a lion.
[55:17.990 --> 55:22.690]  We are the birth of a new age.
[55:25.140 --> 55:25.900]  A little
[55:32.610 --> 55:59.270]  pause...
[56:05.930 --> 56:06.710]  and we are back.
[00:00.830 --> 00:03.330]  And very good evening to everybody on Overtime.
[00:03.550 --> 00:07.910]  Here we are for the second part of Off the Hook, where you can call in.
[00:09.310 --> 00:10.070]  Everybody make it?
[00:11.710 --> 00:12.350]  We're here.
[00:12.730 --> 00:13.090]  We are.
[00:13.250 --> 00:14.050]  Alex is gone.
[00:14.130 --> 00:14.830]  Where'd Alex go?
[00:15.450 --> 00:16.070]  Look at that.
[00:16.130 --> 00:16.810]  Empty... oh, there he is.
[00:16.870 --> 00:17.030]  Okay.
[00:17.510 --> 00:18.010]  I'm here.
[00:18.350 --> 00:19.850]  Yeah, and Kyle's here as well.
[00:20.710 --> 00:21.110]  Cool.
[00:22.030 --> 00:28.870]  You know, I wish we had more time, because there were so many things that, you know, I like to talk about on the other part of the show.
[00:28.870 --> 00:31.810]  But boy, we get into these conversations, and they are important.
[00:31.990 --> 00:32.630]  They are important.
[00:32.710 --> 00:36.430]  And as you were pointing out, Alex, I do relate to our world.
[00:36.550 --> 00:40.490]  I know people are always eager to point out how we stray from the topic.
[00:40.630 --> 00:45.290]  But these things are relevant, and they matter in the world of technology.
[00:45.570 --> 00:53.050]  They matter as far as the hacker mindset, and just the way that you think through a problem, come up with a solution.
[00:53.490 --> 00:55.890]  It's all extremely relevant to that.
[00:57.490 --> 00:59.290]  They're not trivial subjects, either.
[00:59.410 --> 01:03.930]  There's really a lot of complexities to some of the discussions we end up covering.
[01:04.130 --> 01:05.430]  Yeah, and COVID is pretty serious.
[01:06.510 --> 01:11.610]  I'm glad to see our listeners are keeping up with the topic as well.
[01:11.650 --> 01:12.930]  So that's super important.
[01:14.010 --> 01:19.070]  But let's touch upon a couple of other subjects, too, that are happening out there.
[01:19.170 --> 01:23.710]  You know, Facebook and Instagram are going to let users hide their likes.
[01:24.810 --> 01:26.710]  Yeah, obviously, that's a more important story.
[01:26.890 --> 01:28.210]  We should have led with that.
[01:28.870 --> 01:30.830]  But we just kind of ran out of time.
[01:31.010 --> 01:35.690]  But yeah, Facebook and Instagram, owned by the same people, by the way, and there are people who don't know that.
[01:35.690 --> 01:36.830]  Yeah, they're owned by the same people.
[01:38.370 --> 01:50.710]  They're giving all users the option to hide public likes on their posts, potentially upending a core dynamic of the social media platforms, where like counts are seen as a sign of a person's influence.
[01:51.370 --> 01:53.790]  And I think it's all just a bunch of garbage.
[01:53.890 --> 01:55.730]  I don't use either one of those platforms.
[01:57.010 --> 02:01.930]  One of the reasons we don't use Instagram is because they won't let us use our name on Instagram.
[02:02.650 --> 02:06.090]  You know, the 2600, they don't allow it because it's all numbers.
[02:06.210 --> 02:09.350]  Yet they do allow other Instagram accounts to have all numbers.
[02:09.470 --> 02:11.210]  So I don't know what's going on with that.
[02:11.230 --> 02:15.270]  We don't have time to get involved in a fight with Instagram because we're already in fights with everybody else.
[02:15.950 --> 02:17.070]  But it's stupid.
[02:17.370 --> 02:22.290]  And plus, you know, everything that comes out of there seems to be self-promotion.
[02:22.490 --> 02:24.250]  And I just hate the word influencer.
[02:24.250 --> 02:39.090]  Anyway, the social media giant has, since 2019, been testing the ability for users to hide the counts of likes, which is a feature synonymous with Facebook as a way to make Facebook and Instagram less stressful to use.
[02:39.830 --> 02:40.610]  Think about it.
[02:40.710 --> 02:52.550]  You know, if it's all about number of likes, I can't imagine going through school with the weight of an Instagram account strapped to me on top of everything else I had to deal with.
[02:52.550 --> 03:02.350]  With, you know, not getting the same amount of likes as somebody else or getting all kinds of criticism or being ostracized online.
[03:02.830 --> 03:10.230]  It's a kind of hell that I never had to deal with, but I imagine kids today are basically crippled by it in many instances.
[03:10.230 --> 03:22.790]  Um, so as of today, every user can now choose whether people can see the number of likes on his or her own post, and also whether to see how many people liked other users' posts.
[03:23.430 --> 03:24.430]  Uh, okay.
[03:25.090 --> 03:33.210]  Um, Facebook has been working to combat mounting criticisms that social media platforms can be harmful to the well-being of users and society.
[03:33.210 --> 03:43.970]  Uh, however, even with Wednesday's announcement, um, hiding likes on Facebook and Instagram will be optional rather than by default, making it unclear how many users will actually take this step.
[03:43.970 --> 03:45.870]  What we heard from...
[03:45.870 --> 03:47.410]  Facebook said this, by the way.
[03:47.530 --> 03:48.790]  It doesn't even say a person said this.
[03:48.890 --> 03:50.010]  It just says Facebook said this.
[03:50.190 --> 04:02.310]  What we heard from people and experts was that not seeing like counts was beneficial for some and annoying to others, particularly because people use like counts to get a sense of what's trending or popular.
[04:02.890 --> 04:04.550]  So we're giving you the choice.
[04:05.390 --> 04:14.030]  If users opt out of sharing public like counts on their post, viewers will be able to see a list of who liked the post, but not the number of likes it got?
[04:15.710 --> 04:20.290]  The person who posted the photo will still be able to see the number of likes, even if it is not displayed publicly.
[04:20.590 --> 04:21.750]  Wait, I don't get that first part.
[04:21.850 --> 04:29.510]  If users opt out of sharing public like counts on their posts, viewers will be able to see a list of who liked it.
[04:30.470 --> 04:32.790]  Then they could just count that themselves, couldn't they?
[04:33.270 --> 04:34.250]  This is nothing.
[04:34.470 --> 04:35.550]  I just read nothing.
[04:36.330 --> 04:37.890]  They're not doing this at all.
[04:37.990 --> 04:48.750]  If you can still see whether zero people like something or a million people like something, yeah, it doesn't give you the number, but you can still tell pretty quickly, is this popular or not?
[04:49.090 --> 04:53.270]  This is just such a typical two-faced Facebook way of doing things.
[04:54.210 --> 04:55.090]  Go ahead, Alex.
[04:55.810 --> 05:15.470]  The other thing, too, is that this misses the point in terms of trying to avoid the popularity contest or the stress of a popularity contest, especially for teenagers, students, young people that use Instagram, because this just removes one component of a post.
[05:15.690 --> 05:37.230]  It probably has nothing to do with how many quote-unquote followers you have, how many friends you have, all of which are other metrics by which people erroneously judge their lives, you know, and determine whether or not they have merit or value in their lives based on how many people follow them.
[05:37.990 --> 05:40.730]  And I think that's a larger part of the problem.
[05:40.910 --> 05:44.390]  This is treating a tiny symptom and not the disease itself.
[05:44.390 --> 06:04.370]  I think there's also a lot more ads and confusion for users who might not be fully literate in the medium that they're working with, that they're looking at something that someone is getting something for in exchange for that promoted content.
[06:04.510 --> 06:09.950]  They have labels for some things, but I know there's a lot of variability in how it's presented.
[06:10.130 --> 06:16.730]  There's whole businesses that are on these platforms that represent themselves, which is great.
[06:16.730 --> 06:21.830]  And I think a lot of that is an offshoot of some of the commerce aspects that Facebook has really been pushing.
[06:22.030 --> 06:28.710]  But all of that's very much in the mix and related to the deluge of ads on these platforms.
[06:28.770 --> 06:35.370]  So what you end up with is people themselves that are seeking customers in those likes.
[06:36.870 --> 06:37.190]  Yeah.
[06:37.430 --> 06:40.150]  By the way, who's got the fan on over there in Skype land?
[06:40.250 --> 06:42.290]  One of you's got a fan on and it's making a racket.
[06:43.990 --> 06:45.470]  I think that may be us.
[06:45.690 --> 06:46.030]  Okay, good.
[06:46.310 --> 06:47.870]  I thought it was traffic or something.
[06:47.990 --> 06:49.210]  Well, you sound like you're in an airplane.
[06:50.070 --> 06:50.590]  That's better.
[06:50.730 --> 06:51.250]  That's much better.
[06:51.410 --> 06:51.950]  Thank you very much.
[06:52.670 --> 06:54.050]  Yeah, I know it's 90 degrees there.
[06:54.210 --> 06:57.510]  It's going to get a lot worse, but it's radio and it's supposed to be hot in the comfort.
[06:57.510 --> 07:01.050]  Well, we have a great sound quality where you're coming in clear.
[07:01.230 --> 07:02.670]  That's the takeaway there.
[07:02.970 --> 07:03.130]  Yeah.
[07:03.230 --> 07:07.230]  And so how do you tell people it's not about popularity when these numbers are so pervasive?
[07:07.230 --> 07:11.290]  They're constantly reminding you how unpopular you are, how popular you are.
[07:11.630 --> 07:17.270]  You know, you see the same person, you see the same thing said by another person, almost literally the same words.
[07:17.550 --> 07:19.770]  And somehow that becomes a trending topic.
[07:20.030 --> 07:23.950]  And, you know, when someone else says it, nobody hears it and nobody cares.
[07:24.510 --> 07:25.730]  It's not good for anybody.
[07:25.750 --> 07:28.070]  I don't, I just don't see that as being healthy.
[07:28.270 --> 07:37.950]  You know, there's tremendous potential here as far as sharing experiences and news and emotions and things like that, but only if it's done on equal footing.
[07:37.950 --> 07:51.350]  When somebody right away is at a disadvantage because of who they are or where they rank on a certain scale, you know, and it's, it just seems like it's designed for failure.
[07:51.930 --> 07:53.010]  Alex, did you have something?
[07:54.630 --> 07:57.410]  Yeah, I agree with that entirely.
[07:57.410 --> 08:13.370]  And a lot of this has to do with the black boxes that propel most of these social media platforms, namely the content algorithms, the algorithms that feed us content, that feed us news, suggestions, and that ilk.
[08:13.630 --> 08:17.530]  And nobody really understands exactly how they operate.
[08:17.810 --> 08:20.770]  These aren't subject to any kind of community scrutiny.
[08:21.030 --> 08:23.130]  There's no transparency whatsoever.
[08:23.130 --> 08:26.170]  They're held as closely guarded trade secrets.
[08:26.390 --> 08:28.070]  And, and you're absolutely right.
[08:28.070 --> 08:33.810]  It, it amplifies voices seemingly for, for no reason other than the fact that they're popular.
[08:33.810 --> 08:35.290]  It's going to get to more people.
[08:35.490 --> 08:36.910]  It's going to activate more people.
[08:37.030 --> 08:38.590]  More eyeballs are going to be on the platform.
[08:38.770 --> 08:44.950]  More eyeballs on the platform mean more, more of an opportunity to sell advertisements to those eyeballs.
[08:45.330 --> 08:47.630]  So it's, it's all about the dollar.
[08:47.830 --> 08:49.150]  It's all about the bottom line.
[08:49.210 --> 09:07.210]  And, uh, I'm hopeful that there will be some more algorithmic transparency about how these social media platforms operate specifically because their algorithms were exploited and vulnerable to, for things like election interference, things like fomenting extremism.
[09:07.510 --> 09:16.570]  In fact, I, uh, happen to be writing an article on this very subject, uh, that will hopefully be out next week in, uh, in the financial times.
[09:16.630 --> 09:17.170]  We'll see.
[09:17.910 --> 09:18.230]  Okay.
[09:19.190 --> 09:23.730]  Um, we're going to give out our phone number 802-321-4225.
[09:23.970 --> 09:27.710]  I think what we'll do is we'll, uh, take a phone call, read a story, take another phone call, read another story.
[09:27.810 --> 09:31.070]  Cause we have a bunch of stories here and that's a good way of sort of pacing it.
[09:31.270 --> 09:32.010]  I'll try to keep up.
[09:32.010 --> 09:32.330]  Yeah.
[09:32.450 --> 09:32.850]  Try to keep up.
[09:33.050 --> 09:36.070]  Uh, 802-321-HACK is our phone number.
[09:36.270 --> 09:37.010]  Try to keep it short.
[09:37.190 --> 09:38.770]  Try to keep it, uh, on point.
[09:39.390 --> 09:42.050]  And, um, we'll see if we can get through a bunch of people.
[09:42.290 --> 09:43.510]  Always like to hear from our listeners.
[09:43.630 --> 09:51.090]  And again, you can write to us OTH at 2600.com with whatever it is that you wish to say to us.
[09:51.270 --> 09:51.390]  Yeah.
[09:51.490 --> 09:52.470]  Should the Olympics be canceled?
[09:53.070 --> 09:56.150]  You know, um, I have mixed feelings about that now.
[09:56.330 --> 09:58.250]  You know, a week ago I would have said yes, absolutely.
[09:58.430 --> 10:03.370]  But then I saw what they did with Eurovision in Rotterdam and boy, that was fun.
[10:03.730 --> 10:08.910]  They had, you know, and I did not know from watching it that they had a limited amount of people.
[10:09.070 --> 10:12.550]  It looked like they had a lot of people there, but they really only had 3000, not that many.
[10:13.050 --> 10:15.050]  Uh, they could do the same thing with the Olympics.
[10:15.210 --> 10:23.670]  If the athletes are tested and, and, uh, kept safe, you don't need the massive crowds of people because it's all about TV coverage.
[10:23.810 --> 10:31.570]  Anyway, it's something that might give a boost to, um, uh, just the world in general.
[10:31.810 --> 10:34.790]  Uh, a lot of money has already been paid for it.
[10:34.870 --> 10:37.370]  So, you know, Japan shouldn't have to lose all of that.
[10:37.890 --> 10:47.770]  If they can pull it off as far as keeping the athletes safe, then maybe focus on that and making it a TV production, not so much, uh, having tens of thousands of people in the stands.
[10:48.430 --> 10:49.150]  I don't know.
[10:49.330 --> 10:56.110]  I have mixed feelings about this because on the other hand, thinking about sports events seem so trivial.
[10:56.710 --> 11:00.170]  But again, it does pick up people's moods.
[11:00.490 --> 11:11.870]  And geopolitically, it could be, uh, really helpful and, or informative to see how some of, uh, some of that plays out, uh, and unifying because the world has gone through this, uh, incredible experience.
[11:12.210 --> 11:17.270]  So to be able to emphasize that in a production would be, um, stirring.
[11:18.310 --> 11:18.750]  Okay.
[11:19.050 --> 11:20.370]  Hey, I think we have a phone call.
[11:20.950 --> 11:22.150]  Do we have a phone call, Kyle?
[11:23.030 --> 11:23.470]  Okay.
[11:23.770 --> 11:24.310]  Good evening.
[11:24.510 --> 11:25.590]  You're on off the hook over time.
[11:25.690 --> 11:25.890]  Go ahead.
[11:27.770 --> 11:29.290]  And please turn down your computer.
[11:30.350 --> 11:31.390]  Yes, I've just turned it down.
[11:31.490 --> 11:31.830]  Ah, good.
[11:32.270 --> 11:33.070]  Where are you calling from?
[11:34.330 --> 11:37.390]  I'm calling from, uh, Happy Valley Goose Bay, Labrador, Canada.
[11:37.890 --> 11:38.550]  Oh, cool.
[11:39.130 --> 11:39.470]  Wow.
[11:39.710 --> 11:40.190]  Wait a minute.
[11:40.310 --> 11:40.930]  Hold on a second.
[11:41.030 --> 11:41.570]  That's awesome.
[11:41.810 --> 11:42.870]  You're in Labrador.
[11:43.350 --> 11:45.570]  We just, yes, we, we were in Labrador.
[11:45.730 --> 11:46.530]  Do you want to tell them what we did?
[11:47.090 --> 11:48.090]  Well, I think we should.
[11:48.350 --> 11:50.170]  Uh, you went to Shefferville there a while back.
[11:50.250 --> 11:50.530]  Okay.
[11:50.670 --> 11:51.350]  You know about what we did?
[11:51.450 --> 11:51.530]  Yeah.
[11:51.530 --> 11:58.310]  We went to Shefferville, which meant we passed through Labrador, but, uh, actually, uh, Shefferville is in Quebec, but boy, do I want to go to Labrador.
[11:58.450 --> 11:59.370]  I want to go to Labrador city.
[11:59.550 --> 12:01.830]  I want to, uh, and, and Happy Valley Goose Bay, whatever that is.
[12:01.930 --> 12:03.530]  It's great to hear from somebody from Canada.
[12:03.650 --> 12:05.950]  We actually recently, we've been having a little reception issue.
[12:06.170 --> 12:10.210]  So we were a little, we feel disconnected from Canada, but we want to travel again.
[12:10.610 --> 12:13.870]  Unfortunately, Americans can't do that, uh, and vice versa.
[12:19.810 --> 12:28.230]  We're not really being affected by the COVID, uh, uh, I guess because we're a bit isolated, but, uh, it is in Newfoundland, which is just south of us.
[12:28.870 --> 12:39.870]  Uh, basically I live in, uh, I live at a military base that was created during World War II, uh, which is, uh, by the government, the Canadian government and the American government.
[12:40.030 --> 12:43.190]  And I believe, uh, the American government still has a lease on the base up here.
[12:44.070 --> 12:47.030]  Uh, uh, I love computers.
[12:47.330 --> 12:48.190]  I love your show.
[12:48.350 --> 12:48.650]  It's great.
[12:49.070 --> 12:50.610]  I've been listening to you guys for a while now.
[12:50.950 --> 12:51.270]  Cool.
[12:51.430 --> 12:51.590]  Yeah.
[12:51.590 --> 12:52.210]  Can you still hear me?
[12:52.330 --> 12:52.890]  Yeah, absolutely.
[12:53.130 --> 12:53.390]  Oh yeah.
[12:53.410 --> 12:53.850]  You sound great.
[12:53.990 --> 12:54.250]  Oh, okay.
[12:54.310 --> 12:54.470]  Yeah.
[12:54.790 --> 12:56.110]  It's, uh, it's, uh, yeah.
[12:56.190 --> 12:56.890]  I just love your show.
[12:56.990 --> 13:02.430]  I just wanted to call in and, uh, I've been listening to you guys now for the last couple of years and I really enjoy it.
[13:02.510 --> 13:06.030]  Uh, the way of the world is really crazy right now with all the chaos.
[13:06.250 --> 13:06.410]  Yeah.
[13:06.510 --> 13:08.250]  Hopefully we can all come out of it a little bit better.
[13:09.050 --> 13:15.730]  So now you're, you're actually, um, um, you're in the Labrador part of, of, uh, Newfoundland Labrador.
[13:16.690 --> 13:19.510]  Um, how, how does somebody get to where you are?
[13:19.590 --> 13:20.750]  Is there a road that goes there?
[13:21.850 --> 13:31.850]  Well, if, uh, there is a road that goes here where I think where you, where you guys have come to Shefferville before there, uh, there's a road that, there's a highway that goes from Lab City to Happy Valley Goose Bay.
[13:32.110 --> 13:32.370]  Okay.
[13:32.430 --> 13:33.570]  That's the road that we passed.
[13:33.850 --> 13:34.710]  Another eight hours.
[13:35.010 --> 13:35.370]  Uh-huh.
[13:36.310 --> 13:36.710]  Driving.
[13:37.030 --> 13:37.290]  Yeah.
[13:37.430 --> 13:37.990]  Driving time.
[13:38.150 --> 13:38.250]  Yeah.
[13:38.410 --> 13:42.030]  I think we wanted to take that trip actually, because it's like a, it looks like a highway.
[13:42.210 --> 13:45.370]  The train passes it and there's no cars or trucks or anything on it.
[13:45.550 --> 13:48.850]  Uh, but it definitely goes from, from Labrador City to somewhere else.
[13:49.070 --> 13:54.130]  Now, can you keep going, uh, past that and get on a boat and, and hit Newfoundland that way?
[13:55.410 --> 14:10.490]  You can, but once you get to Happy Valley, like once you get to do that big trek of a drive, once you get to Hadley Valley Goose Bay, you can actually, there's another highway, which is south that, uh, it's kind of a rough road there, but, uh, and you just take that road south and you get,
[14:10.610 --> 14:14.190]  you'll eventually come to a ferry and then you can take the ferry to Newfoundland.
[14:14.370 --> 14:14.610]  Wow.
[14:14.790 --> 14:15.230]  Go across.
[14:16.090 --> 14:16.450]  Okay.
[14:16.650 --> 14:16.770]  Yeah.
[14:16.790 --> 14:18.450]  I think the place is called, uh, St. Barb.
[14:19.030 --> 14:20.630]  It's actually a part of Quebec as well.
[14:20.710 --> 14:29.650]  So you, once you get down to the south coast of Labrador, you kind of have to drive into Quebec and then, uh, there's a ferry right there that'll take you right to Newfoundland.
[14:29.790 --> 14:30.850]  We are going to do this.
[14:30.930 --> 14:35.050]  We are going to do this as, as soon as we're able to cross borders again.
[14:35.330 --> 14:37.830]  Logistically and, and, but it sounds amazing.
[14:38.290 --> 14:40.330]  Uh, now tell, you say you're on a military base?
[14:41.430 --> 14:52.290]  Well, I live in a place called Happy Valley and it's, uh, right next door to Goose Bay, which is the actual base, the military base that was built, uh, during, like, for World War II, basically.
[14:52.290 --> 14:54.870]  So the planes could be going back and forth.
[14:55.230 --> 14:58.470]  Uh, and there was also another one called Gander in Newfoundland.
[14:58.690 --> 14:59.550]  Gander I'm familiar with.
[14:59.690 --> 15:01.210]  That's, that's around the same time.
[15:01.470 --> 15:06.150]  Gander used to be where planes would land to refuel when they were going on, on cross Atlantic trips.
[15:07.090 --> 15:07.950]  Yes, exactly.
[15:08.110 --> 15:08.290]  Yeah.
[15:08.690 --> 15:08.870]  Yeah.
[15:09.250 --> 15:11.950]  And then, uh, uh, geez, what else we had to say there?
[15:12.290 --> 15:15.690]  Um, yeah, basically that's what, that's what it was built here for.
[15:15.970 --> 15:21.210]  But I'm in a place called Happy Valley, which is just part of the town, uh, right next to Goose Bay.
[15:21.210 --> 15:21.430]  Okay.
[15:21.490 --> 15:23.730]  I got to ask, how did it get the name Happy Valley?
[15:25.150 --> 15:26.950]  I was just looking that up, actually.
[15:27.090 --> 15:33.290]  I'm not totally sure that the whole history of it, uh, I was just looking at that online there, uh, just before I called actually.
[15:33.670 --> 15:40.430]  And I was kind of briefly looking at it, but I don't know exactly why it's called Happy Valley, uh, off the top of my head.
[15:41.410 --> 15:42.990]  Well, do people seem happy?
[15:43.190 --> 15:44.350]  Do people seem happy there?
[15:45.810 --> 15:52.250]  I think, uh, if I'm not correct, uh, I think it might have been an indigenous, uh, Inuit lived in the area.
[15:52.410 --> 15:52.630]  Okay.
[15:52.810 --> 15:56.010]  And I guess we're known to be smiley, happy people, I guess.
[15:56.130 --> 15:57.890]  So I'm not really totally sure.
[15:58.070 --> 15:59.950]  Do you know if it's, if it's, uh, Inuit?
[16:00.190 --> 16:01.770]  Do you know if it's Inuit or Inuk?
[16:02.150 --> 16:04.230]  That, uh, I'm in Inuit.
[16:04.850 --> 16:06.470]  Actually, I am an Inuit, actually.
[16:06.630 --> 16:07.030]  Oh, really?
[16:07.110 --> 16:07.290]  Wow.
[16:07.350 --> 16:07.930]  That's so awesome.
[16:08.310 --> 16:16.430]  This is an incredible coincidence because, um, I've been going through some, some old material when I made a trip up to Iqaluit in the, in the 1980s.
[16:16.710 --> 16:20.330]  And I was just listening to a Noctitude broadcast on CBC North.
[16:20.910 --> 16:25.250]  And, uh, it's just incredible that, um, uh, you actually are, are part of that community.
[16:26.470 --> 16:26.910]  Yes.
[16:27.430 --> 16:29.870]  Unfortunately, I do not speak the Noctitude language.
[16:30.150 --> 16:33.270]  It's kind of been lost in this part of the Labrador.
[16:33.590 --> 16:35.510]  But along the coast, it's still quite strong.
[16:36.770 --> 16:46.490]  What's amazing, what I heard only yesterday in one of the interviews I did, is that, uh, the Inuit language, um, has dialects that vary from Greenland all the way to Alaska.
[16:46.810 --> 16:53.030]  But it's different than Indians who live further south, who have completely different languages from tribe to tribe.
[16:54.050 --> 16:54.530]  Yes.
[16:54.770 --> 16:55.430]  Yes, that's right.
[16:55.650 --> 16:55.970]  Yeah, that's correct.
[16:55.970 --> 16:59.770]  I did not know that 48 hours ago, but I just learned that.
[16:59.770 --> 17:00.530]  Yeah, it's quite bizarre.
[17:00.670 --> 17:05.510]  I mean, you have a whole group of people along the north, and I guess, like you said, each dialect has been a little bit different.
[17:06.410 --> 17:06.730]  Wow.
[17:06.970 --> 17:12.390]  Uh, please, uh, send us an email, because we definitely, uh, want to get in touch when we do make that trip at some point.
[17:12.610 --> 17:13.690]  Uh, it sounds like, uh...
[17:13.690 --> 17:13.990]  Well, definitely.
[17:14.190 --> 17:22.030]  Like I said, uh, I was actually going to mention, if you guys, uh, do make it up this way, I mean, I'll have, I have a cabin where you guys can actually stay, or we'll put you up.
[17:22.390 --> 17:22.710]  Wow.
[17:22.790 --> 17:23.750]  We have to go in the winter now.
[17:23.810 --> 17:24.250]  That's not a problem.
[17:29.770 --> 17:30.450]  Oh, man.
[17:31.350 --> 17:32.270]  Okay, that's enough, yeah.
[17:32.270 --> 17:34.630]  You're looking at 30, 40 below, 50, 60 below.
[17:34.650 --> 17:35.550]  Oh, hell yeah.
[17:35.690 --> 17:36.430]  This is, this is it.
[17:36.510 --> 17:39.590]  This will make me feel so much better, having lived through a year of this nonsense.
[17:39.870 --> 17:47.890]  Well, also, uh, we'll, we'll have to bring up, uh, uh, some things we can, we can get, get from the, the south, too, uh, as a gift or something.
[17:48.010 --> 17:48.450]  Yeah, absolutely.
[17:48.450 --> 17:48.750]  Absolutely.
[17:48.870 --> 17:51.870]  That, that sounds like such a, uh, a great opportunity.
[17:52.210 --> 17:56.310]  We, we are so excited to explore again, and, and we're so glad to hear you.
[17:56.470 --> 17:56.470]  Yeah.
[17:57.710 --> 17:58.070]  Not...
[17:58.070 --> 18:02.170]  I hear you, because, I mean, with the way the world is, it's, it's really unfortunate.
[18:02.170 --> 18:03.450]  We've all been just trapped.
[18:04.110 --> 18:04.410]  Mm-hmm.
[18:04.750 --> 18:04.970]  Yeah.
[18:05.130 --> 18:05.450]  Trapped.
[18:05.750 --> 18:15.530]  But, you know, imagine what it would have been like, imagine what it would have been like, like, 20, 30 years ago, when we didn't have these means of communication, uh, how much more trapped we would feel.
[18:16.890 --> 18:29.910]  Well, I think with the isolation, too, the big fear up in this part of the country is if the COVID were to get in here with nobody vaccinated, uh, we would probably get the population wiped right out.
[18:30.330 --> 18:30.530]  Yeah.
[18:30.690 --> 18:32.510]  Well, you know, that happened with the Spanish flu.
[18:32.710 --> 18:33.110]  Uh-huh.
[18:33.390 --> 18:33.570]  Uh-huh.
[18:33.670 --> 18:34.250]  Back in the...
[18:34.250 --> 18:36.110]  Which, by the way, was not Spanish.
[18:36.550 --> 18:37.570]  It was not Spanish.
[18:37.750 --> 18:38.430]  It was only Spanish.
[18:38.590 --> 18:40.750]  They called it that because it was reported in Spanish media.
[18:41.190 --> 18:41.410]  That's right.
[18:41.410 --> 18:42.230]  It's important to point that out.
[18:42.290 --> 18:43.270]  I feel compelled to do that.
[18:43.710 --> 18:52.990]  Um, but yeah, in Iqaluit, they had no cases until I think earlier this year, and then it was a real concern, uh, for the reasons that you state, because it could spread very fast.
[18:54.030 --> 18:54.470]  Yeah.
[18:54.870 --> 19:05.490]  And I think, like, that's what the big... Well, actually, a lot of our, the native, uh, indigenous populations seem to, they seem to get the vaccinations to us quite quickly, which is really great.
[19:05.750 --> 19:05.890]  Yeah.
[19:06.110 --> 19:06.270]  Yeah.
[19:06.410 --> 19:06.810]  Crucial.
[19:06.910 --> 19:17.150]  And, but that blindsided without the testing and then, uh, visibility on it, it just, and, uh, contagiousness, it was incredibly scary, that uncertainty early on, so...
[19:17.150 --> 19:19.670]  Have you had easy access to the vaccine?
[19:21.630 --> 19:21.950]  Yes.
[19:22.190 --> 19:24.590]  I mean, we, most of my family got vaccinated.
[19:24.790 --> 19:25.850]  We did it right away.
[19:26.290 --> 19:27.630]  Like, no questions asked.
[19:27.670 --> 19:28.610]  I think it was...
[19:28.610 --> 19:30.010]  As soon as they had it out for us.
[19:30.250 --> 19:30.470]  Right.
[19:30.810 --> 19:32.910]  Uh, actually, we went and got it done at a local church.
[19:32.910 --> 19:33.750]  Oh, wow.
[19:33.850 --> 19:36.790]  So the community kind of just went to the church and had it done.
[19:37.090 --> 19:50.730]  I think it was, um, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was distributed to the communities, to the, um, um, uh, far-reaching parts of Canada, uh, before, uh, it was, it was, um, sent to the big metropolis.
[19:50.950 --> 19:51.370]  Is that correct?
[19:51.950 --> 19:52.310]  Yes.
[19:52.530 --> 19:53.210]  Yeah, that's correct.
[19:53.370 --> 19:53.890]  Yeah, that's right.
[19:54.030 --> 20:06.470]  Like a place like Toronto, uh, you know, I don't think, I'm not sure now, but they don't seem to be fully vaccinated yet, but they kind of went to these isolated areas, which is, it's really, you know, I got to applaud the Canadian government for that.
[20:06.930 --> 20:07.290]  Yeah.
[20:07.370 --> 20:13.510]  For, for the reasons you mentioned, it's smart because again, it could wipe out entire communities if it was allowed to spread.
[20:13.710 --> 20:17.950]  Uh, and, um, it's an easy way to control it since there are far less people.
[20:18.910 --> 20:19.670]  Yeah, definitely.
[20:20.590 --> 20:22.030]  Now, uh, how can I get a hold of you?
[20:22.170 --> 20:23.670]  Like, what do you want my email address?
[20:23.830 --> 20:29.350]  Just, um, you know, write to us, OTH at 2600.com and we'll, we'll get it that way.
[20:29.450 --> 20:30.770]  And then we can, we can stay in touch.
[20:31.850 --> 20:32.210]  Sure.
[20:32.930 --> 20:37.690]  Now, was what, did you have something you wanted to, uh, to mention other than, than living in happy valley?
[20:37.850 --> 20:40.270]  Was there, was there another part of your call?
[20:40.490 --> 20:46.790]  You mentioned on the show earlier tonight, uh, how, uh, things seem to be getting torn down and, and, and, and that nature.
[20:46.990 --> 20:47.130]  Mm-hmm.
[20:47.130 --> 20:52.230]  Like with the, with the military base where a lot of the buildings, the Canadian government had kind of just demolished them.
[20:52.430 --> 20:56.670]  And it was, I thought it was kind of unfortunate because it was, I just thought it was kind of a historical thing.
[20:56.670 --> 21:00.090]  It was World War II history that they were kind of tearing down.
[21:00.410 --> 21:02.030]  And I think that's kind of unfortunate.
[21:02.270 --> 21:11.670]  Now, those memories and that, you know, it could be torn, it could be turned into a museum and, and people could come there and flock there to see actual World War II history.
[21:11.930 --> 21:18.070]  And that's unfortunate that I find a lot of it's all just run down and kind of just going to the wayside now.
[21:18.650 --> 21:26.310]  Well, the important thing is having that vision for it transforming and being able to communicate that.
[21:26.510 --> 21:44.630]  Uh, we've seen certain situations that don't take such a turn or at least the right people see it and they see, but they see for what it could be, not just the, you know, like you're saying that the rundown nature and, and they don't see possibility or,
[21:44.690 --> 21:46.410]  or anything worth investing in.
[21:46.510 --> 21:49.190]  But if you can communicate that to you, you get a lot of people around stuff.
[21:49.410 --> 21:51.250]  I know that was really helpful out here.
[21:51.390 --> 22:03.670]  We have a Tesla science, uh, uh, and history center, uh, that a lot of people were excited about and, and has slowly been emerging as this, uh, really, really neat historical thing.
[22:03.790 --> 22:05.170]  So that sounds like a great project.
[22:05.170 --> 22:07.430]  If you get a couple, you know, interested people.
[22:07.530 --> 22:09.590]  Well, now if it's already been destroyed, has it already been destroyed?
[22:10.590 --> 22:10.930]  Yeah.
[22:11.070 --> 22:13.770]  There's a lot of buildings that have been just demolished.
[22:13.770 --> 22:17.030]  I mean, I don't really know the reasoning behind it.
[22:17.350 --> 22:18.270]  Oh, so nothing was.
[22:18.970 --> 22:19.330]  Wow.
[22:19.590 --> 22:24.230]  I just thought, I just thought they were tearing down history and I just, yeah, I just got kind of unfortunate.
[22:24.530 --> 22:25.830]  So I wouldn't leave anything standing.
[22:26.030 --> 22:29.750]  Well, hopefully they, they at least, you know, somebody has pictures or, or some kind of documentation.
[22:29.750 --> 22:34.850]  Oh, I'm sure there's pictures, but it's, it's just, you know, it's, it's definitely not the same when something has gone.
[22:35.010 --> 22:36.090]  No, no, of course not.
[22:36.310 --> 22:37.070]  And especially there.
[22:37.170 --> 22:37.950]  I mean, what's the point?
[22:38.170 --> 22:40.970]  Uh, this is in, uh, uh, uh, Goose Bay, is it?
[22:41.950 --> 22:42.290]  Yes.
[22:42.430 --> 22:42.810]  Goose Bay.
[22:43.050 --> 22:43.370]  Yeah.
[22:43.630 --> 22:46.190]  What's, what's, uh, what are they going to replace it with something else?
[22:46.390 --> 22:49.490]  Is there, is there demand to not have this, this bit of history there?
[22:49.610 --> 22:51.630]  The airport is still being used quite a lot.
[22:51.750 --> 23:00.870]  I mean, I, I, there's actually, I just seen a big, uh, uh, uh, C5, uh, air, uh, transport planes come through here all the time from the United States.
[23:01.290 --> 23:04.190]  Like I said, the government, the United States government still has a lease on it.
[23:04.290 --> 23:11.190]  So they're constantly, you know, you'll see planes come through here going to, uh, to Europe or wherever all the time.
[23:11.470 --> 23:11.870]  Yeah.
[23:11.950 --> 23:12.330]  I'd imagine.
[23:12.530 --> 23:12.790]  Yeah.
[23:13.230 --> 23:26.470]  It, it's, uh, emerging to, uh, there's a lot of talk in the news about the strategic, uh, implications in the North with, with the, uh, melting and, and so forth and opening up of new sea passages.
[23:27.070 --> 23:38.930]  So maybe it will be just, uh, reclaimed and, um, reemerge as a base once again, but with a lot of new infrastructure, there's a little bit of that sentiment in the air too.
[23:39.230 --> 23:39.390]  So.
[23:40.250 --> 23:43.790]  Hey, uh, Rob, Alex Gila, do you have anything to say to our caller from Labrador?
[23:45.650 --> 23:47.310]  Uh, just thanks for calling.
[23:47.450 --> 24:01.590]  It's a really, it's really cool to hear from you and, uh, also hear what's going on in like one, one strength of doing this stuff online is that, uh, people from far away can call us with, I guess, uh, without, uh, without, um, having to be in our broadcast area so much.
[24:01.770 --> 24:03.090]  And yeah, it's good to hear from you.
[24:03.290 --> 24:05.770]  What's amazing is that Labrador really isn't that far away.
[24:05.950 --> 24:09.490]  It's, you know, Quebec is next door and Labrador is, is, is next door to that.
[24:09.650 --> 24:11.950]  So it's, it's not like even going to Illinois.
[24:12.170 --> 24:15.110]  I don't think it's, it's, it's closer than most people realize.
[24:16.170 --> 24:17.030]  Yeah, it is.
[24:17.450 --> 24:18.550]  It's a beautiful place.
[24:18.690 --> 24:19.570]  It's a beautiful country.
[24:19.930 --> 24:24.790]  I mean, if it's basically, it's just nothing but trees and outdoors, which is a great thing.
[24:25.650 --> 24:27.090]  What's a big concrete jungle.
[24:27.550 --> 24:27.630]  Yeah.
[24:27.770 --> 24:29.790]  Well, have you ever been to a concrete jungle?
[24:30.950 --> 24:31.950]  I've been to Toronto.
[24:32.350 --> 24:32.650]  Okay.
[24:32.910 --> 24:35.570]  I've been to New York city a long time ago now.
[24:36.270 --> 24:40.910]  You're talking over 20, 20 something years ago, but yeah, I mean, I do love New York city.
[24:41.050 --> 24:45.290]  I love, I love the big metropolis, but I mean, I just like, I love the nature too.
[24:45.770 --> 24:49.570]  What is the most impressive form of wildlife you have seen over there?
[24:49.690 --> 24:50.810]  Or even this season?
[24:51.690 --> 24:52.410]  Oh, wow.
[24:52.870 --> 24:55.590]  We've got black bears, moose.
[24:56.810 --> 24:57.250]  Yeah.
[24:57.590 --> 25:03.550]  You know, I just, actually, I just seen a Northern pike there just the other day because I like to do a lot of fishing as well.
[25:05.130 --> 25:08.610]  And you know, the fish are, the fishing season now is starting to come around.
[25:09.550 --> 25:10.850]  Like we still have snow.
[25:11.410 --> 25:15.290]  I'm still here quite in the woods yet, so... You still have snow now in late May?
[25:15.410 --> 25:16.090]  It's starting to disappear now.
[25:16.230 --> 25:17.430]  In late May, you still have snow?
[25:18.550 --> 25:18.930]  Yeah.
[25:19.230 --> 25:19.450]  Wow.
[25:19.530 --> 25:19.950]  Yeah, we do.
[25:20.090 --> 25:20.450]  Okay.
[25:20.910 --> 25:23.770]  So the rivers are starting to run, or will be.
[25:23.890 --> 25:25.030]  So now we've got to go there.
[25:25.150 --> 25:25.950]  We've got to go to Whitehorse.
[25:26.250 --> 25:26.410]  Okay.
[25:26.490 --> 25:27.210]  It's going to be great.
[25:27.350 --> 25:28.570]  We're just going to stay in the North.
[25:28.850 --> 25:31.530]  Yeah, we have a bunch of stuff up North to take care of.
[25:31.650 --> 25:37.130]  So we'll definitely, we're plotting some road trips and some visits here and there.
[25:37.130 --> 25:38.070]  Like I said, I'm...
[25:38.070 --> 25:39.730]  I have to rent a car to do this.
[25:39.850 --> 25:40.670]  I'm a big fan of your show.
[25:40.850 --> 25:42.410]  I've been listening to you now for quite a few years.
[25:42.410 --> 25:45.670]  I'm actually going back into the archives and checking out stuff from the 80s.
[25:46.210 --> 25:46.570]  Yeah.
[25:46.790 --> 25:56.190]  I mean, I have, I have an old Atari ST, 1040 ST that I still use to this day, plus the newer, more recent models of computers.
[25:56.710 --> 25:59.150]  But I'm a big, you know, big fan of your show.
[25:59.390 --> 26:00.010]  Well, thank you.
[26:00.150 --> 26:00.490]  I really enjoy listening.
[26:00.490 --> 26:00.790]  Thank you.
[26:00.850 --> 26:01.690]  It means a lot to us.
[26:01.810 --> 26:06.810]  And it's, it's so good to hear from somebody from that remote part of the world that we always love to explore.
[26:07.030 --> 26:07.390]  Yeah.
[26:07.450 --> 26:08.190]  Thanks for reaching out.
[26:08.370 --> 26:10.650]  If you're ever up this way, like I said, I've got a small cabin.
[26:10.790 --> 26:14.370]  If you're passing through, it's right on the main highway to Churchill Falls.
[26:14.810 --> 26:15.170]  Wow.
[26:15.390 --> 26:19.130]  You're welcome to stay there for, you know, if you're, you know, coming through, let me know.
[26:19.130 --> 26:19.230]  Okay.
[26:19.250 --> 26:20.350]  Well, we'll let you know for sure.
[26:20.550 --> 26:25.370]  And keep listening and let us know if anything else happens up there and stay warm.
[26:26.310 --> 26:26.670]  Yeah.
[26:27.010 --> 26:27.210]  Thanks.
[26:27.510 --> 26:27.710]  Hi.
[26:27.770 --> 26:28.050]  Take care.
[26:28.110 --> 26:28.550]  Take care, guys.
[26:29.630 --> 26:30.190]  How do you like that?
[26:30.370 --> 26:31.530]  Call from Happy Valley.
[26:31.530 --> 26:31.550]  Really?
[26:32.690 --> 26:33.090]  Yeah.
[26:33.510 --> 26:33.850]  Unbelievable.
[26:35.750 --> 26:37.710]  802-321-4225.
[26:37.930 --> 26:40.590]  802-321-HACK is our telephone number.
[26:40.610 --> 26:41.950]  Anybody got the toll-free version of that?
[26:42.750 --> 26:46.310]  Yes, that is 833-755-2600.
[26:46.370 --> 26:48.670]  If you're in the United States, you can call us toll-free.
[26:48.790 --> 26:49.750]  Well, what if you're in Canada?
[26:49.970 --> 26:50.370]  Does it work?
[26:50.370 --> 26:51.270]  Does it work from Canada?
[26:52.290 --> 26:53.250]  I don't know.
[26:53.390 --> 26:55.870]  If you're in Canada and you'd like to help us test this out, Doug...
[26:55.870 --> 26:57.690]  We're just talking to somebody from Canada.
[26:59.070 --> 26:59.610]  All right.
[26:59.770 --> 27:00.650]  Well, this person...
[27:00.650 --> 27:01.830]  But we can't ask a caller to please call us.
[27:01.970 --> 27:03.970]  This person is calling us on the toll-free line.
[27:03.990 --> 27:11.250]  And I have a feeling this is the caller from last week that we were talking about their petition this week.
[27:11.390 --> 27:12.130]  Am I right?
[27:12.810 --> 27:13.750]  You are correct.
[27:14.030 --> 27:14.230]  See?
[27:14.390 --> 27:17.830]  I can tell just by all the zeros that show up on the caller ID there.
[27:18.570 --> 27:19.790]  So, yeah.
[27:20.070 --> 27:23.670]  So, hopefully your petition gets a whole lot of people.
[27:24.570 --> 27:28.710]  As you can hear from what we talked about, this is a concern.
[27:28.910 --> 27:29.670]  This is a concern.
[27:29.770 --> 27:30.590]  You're not alone.
[27:30.950 --> 27:38.790]  I was distracted by something else going on in my background when you were talking about it.
[27:38.870 --> 27:41.430]  Did you give out the name of the link?
[27:41.610 --> 27:42.210]  I sure did.
[27:42.950 --> 27:43.870]  Oh, thank you.
[27:43.870 --> 27:47.490]  I even... I even said what letters are capitalized in case that makes a difference.
[27:48.310 --> 27:48.710]  Okay.
[27:48.710 --> 27:50.330]  I do not know whether it does.
[27:50.470 --> 27:50.570]  Yeah.
[27:50.650 --> 27:51.210]  I wasn't sure either.
[27:53.230 --> 27:54.850]  But have there been any...
[27:54.850 --> 27:54.950]  Thank you very much.
[27:55.090 --> 27:55.750]  No, you're very welcome.
[27:55.910 --> 27:57.590]  But have there been any changes in the last week?
[27:58.910 --> 27:59.310]  No.
[28:01.050 --> 28:01.450]  Okay.
[28:01.450 --> 28:01.990]  All right.
[28:02.950 --> 28:05.170]  Well, you do have the right when somebody...
[28:05.170 --> 28:09.330]  I have the right, but they don't acknowledge you have the right.
[28:09.690 --> 28:10.050]  Yeah.
[28:10.170 --> 28:10.950]  No, that's true.
[28:13.130 --> 28:21.950]  It's a contentious issue, but I think you bringing it up is going to help a lot of people because they may not realize that this is something that other people care about as well.
[28:22.130 --> 28:24.130]  And we all should care about this.
[28:24.270 --> 28:25.610]  It's your house, for God's sake.
[28:25.750 --> 28:30.790]  You know, you should have the right to say who you're comfortable with and who you're not comfortable with.
[28:30.790 --> 28:37.230]  I have a different sort of update on it.
[28:37.430 --> 28:51.270]  It's not exactly the same thing, but I went to a physical therapy evaluation at a physical therapy place.
[28:52.170 --> 29:04.850]  And the building doesn't allow people to wear gloves, because they don't want people with contaminated gloves touching the buttons at the elevators.
[29:05.070 --> 29:09.970]  Wait, the building doesn't allow you to wear gloves because your gloves might contaminate the elevator buttons.
[29:10.630 --> 29:11.490]  That's correct.
[29:11.670 --> 29:12.070]  Got it.
[29:12.270 --> 29:14.010]  Wow, they've been doing...
[29:14.010 --> 29:15.570]  It's a medical building.
[29:16.350 --> 29:16.950]  All right.
[29:17.290 --> 29:17.410]  Go figure.
[29:17.870 --> 29:23.930]  I can't figure that one, because I thought gloves was supposed to help us prevent exactly that kind of thing from happening, but...
[29:23.930 --> 29:24.430]  I think there's...
[29:24.430 --> 29:28.090]  Yeah, well, I'm just telling you the facts.
[29:28.330 --> 29:31.990]  I can't... I can't explain their reasoning.
[29:32.310 --> 29:35.190]  There's some COVID psychosis going on there.
[29:36.410 --> 29:39.030]  Somebody's just crazy overcompensating.
[29:39.130 --> 29:39.850]  Yeah, yeah.
[29:40.070 --> 29:47.510]  And it's easy to make fun of all the different rules and how they conflict with each other, because, you know, a lot of people really haven't quite figured it out yet.
[29:47.670 --> 29:50.010]  And as, you know, in general, I don't think we figured it out.
[29:50.090 --> 29:53.310]  But there are certain things that you can say, yeah, this makes sense.
[29:53.450 --> 29:54.870]  This is factually correct.
[29:54.870 --> 29:56.470]  This is based in science.
[29:56.470 --> 29:59.010]  So we can't mix up the two.
[29:59.150 --> 30:00.750]  We can't mix up the two different things.
[30:03.170 --> 30:06.670]  Well, I went to the physical therapy evaluation.
[30:07.310 --> 30:16.250]  And so the therapist was touching me without gloves and touching my hand, which I didn't have gloves on.
[30:16.470 --> 30:19.190]  She didn't have gloves on because the rule was no gloves.
[30:19.410 --> 30:21.570]  And I said, of course, you're vaccinated.
[30:21.770 --> 30:23.050]  And she said, no, I'm not.
[30:23.890 --> 30:24.490]  Wow.
[30:24.570 --> 30:26.830]  And I was shocked and surprised.
[30:26.930 --> 30:28.170]  I said, why not?
[30:28.570 --> 30:36.670]  And she said, I just haven't seen the point until now with the masks coming off.
[30:36.950 --> 30:40.730]  I will probably get vaccinated soon.
[30:41.550 --> 30:42.030]  Yikes.
[30:42.890 --> 30:47.470]  And I was, as you know, I was dismayed by that.
[30:47.550 --> 30:56.690]  And I said, you're saying that your reason for getting vaccinated is to be able to take masks off.
[30:56.810 --> 31:00.190]  And she said, yes, I didn't see any other reason for that.
[31:00.250 --> 31:03.570]  And I said, well, not shocking and surprising.
[31:04.410 --> 31:10.670]  Your patients might have been a reason to get vaccinated sooner.
[31:11.330 --> 31:20.110]  And she said, you might want to sign up with a different therapist for your next appointment.
[31:20.470 --> 31:20.850]  Wow.
[31:20.990 --> 31:23.950]  So putting it on you as if you're the one with the problem.
[31:24.210 --> 31:26.070]  Now, she was at least wearing a mask.
[31:26.150 --> 31:26.650]  Tell me that.
[31:27.410 --> 31:38.030]  She was wearing a mask, you know, not the KN95 type, but the blue and white kind.
[31:38.530 --> 31:40.570]  And I wasn't sure.
[31:40.830 --> 31:46.130]  I was not at all sure that it was close against her skin.
[31:47.810 --> 31:49.870]  Well, you have a mask on and you've been...
[31:49.870 --> 31:50.470]  It was filtering.
[31:50.650 --> 31:51.410]  Maybe it wasn't.
[31:51.550 --> 31:52.890]  You've had a mask on.
[31:53.010 --> 31:53.590]  You've been vaccinated.
[31:53.670 --> 31:55.410]  So I don't want you to worry.
[31:55.570 --> 31:57.210]  Oh, I had a KN95 on.
[31:57.350 --> 31:57.510]  Right.
[31:57.510 --> 31:59.390]  But you're safe.
[31:59.390 --> 32:00.390]  So don't worry about that.
[32:00.470 --> 32:02.190]  But this, it's irresponsible.
[32:02.190 --> 32:03.010]  It really is.
[32:03.090 --> 32:06.030]  If nothing else for show, you know, to put people at ease.
[32:06.230 --> 32:12.030]  That's what we saw in Manhattan with so many people who are wearing masks who technically didn't have to wear a mask.
[32:12.210 --> 32:18.710]  But because they cared about the people around them and wanted to make everyone else feel at ease, they kept it on.
[32:18.850 --> 32:22.010]  And why are people so crazy about wearing masks?
[32:22.170 --> 32:23.710]  It's such a minor thing.
[32:25.590 --> 32:38.090]  Yeah, I heard one of the people on your show saying one of the things that they did, now that things have loosened up a bit, is catch a cold.
[32:39.750 --> 32:40.530]  Yes, Gila.
[32:40.530 --> 32:42.170]  It wasn't the plan.
[32:42.410 --> 32:43.350]  It just sort of happened.
[32:43.430 --> 32:52.630]  I know it wasn't planned, but that, you know, not wearing masks, that's the sort of thing that loosening things up promotes.
[32:52.830 --> 32:55.370]  So it's funny, but true.
[32:55.770 --> 32:55.950]  Right.
[32:56.010 --> 32:58.630]  Well, we're free to get colds now within our immediate circle.
[32:58.790 --> 33:01.350]  So I'm happy to trade those dreams.
[33:02.750 --> 33:07.090]  But, you know, I don't like getting the cold or the flu.
[33:07.330 --> 33:08.030]  Well, now you know.
[33:08.050 --> 33:10.910]  You can just wear a mask all the time and you'll be protected against colds, too.
[33:11.070 --> 33:12.610]  But, you know, that's a choice.
[33:15.230 --> 33:24.090]  Yeah, well, I believe in China, it's quite usual to wear masks for that kind of reason.
[33:24.250 --> 33:25.730]  In Asia in general.
[33:26.030 --> 33:26.830]  You don't want to get one.
[33:26.910 --> 33:28.610]  There's that and also there's air pollution.
[33:28.830 --> 33:29.950]  People wear masks for different reasons.
[33:30.070 --> 33:31.010]  But yeah, I've noticed that over the years.
[33:31.090 --> 33:32.230]  Alex, looks like you have something to say.
[33:32.330 --> 33:32.570]  Go ahead.
[33:34.110 --> 33:36.830]  Well, I was just ruminating about this.
[33:36.970 --> 33:42.730]  I think, you know, now with masks off, first we're going to see the return of the common cold.
[33:42.730 --> 33:44.970]  And I think you heard it here first.
[33:44.970 --> 33:46.630]  I'm predicting syphilis is next.
[33:47.070 --> 33:47.430]  Wow.
[33:49.070 --> 33:50.410]  You did hear it here first.
[33:50.410 --> 33:51.290]  I can guarantee that.
[33:51.850 --> 33:52.290]  Absolutely.
[33:52.290 --> 34:08.370]  Well, I've read some articles saying that now that people are coming out and meeting people, that that kind of sexually transmitted disease is expected to take off.
[34:09.450 --> 34:10.790]  Well, maybe you heard it second.
[34:11.030 --> 34:13.890]  Okay, so we're going to have plenty to talk about in the months and years ahead.
[34:14.270 --> 34:17.530]  Listen, we're happy we were able to share that information.
[34:17.530 --> 34:20.110]  We're going to keep updated and see if other people write in.
[34:20.110 --> 34:23.130]  Please keep us updated if your situation changes.
[34:23.990 --> 34:24.790]  I shall.
[34:25.070 --> 34:25.390]  All right.
[34:25.490 --> 34:26.590]  Thank you very, very much.
[34:26.690 --> 34:27.350]  You're very welcome.
[34:27.350 --> 34:28.390]  And please keep listening.
[34:29.190 --> 34:32.490]  And we are ready for another call, Kyle.
[34:33.350 --> 34:34.290]  Are you on Instagram?
[34:35.170 --> 34:35.570]  Yes.
[34:35.630 --> 34:36.570]  It looks like you're on Instagram.
[34:36.850 --> 34:38.550]  You got that dazed look in your face.
[34:38.710 --> 34:41.230]  Yeah, no, I'm checking some things.
[34:41.270 --> 34:42.550]  You got some likes the other day.
[34:42.830 --> 34:43.610]  No, I didn't.
[34:43.770 --> 34:44.490]  You thought you did.
[34:44.570 --> 34:45.610]  You thought you had a whole bunch of likes.
[34:45.710 --> 34:46.310]  It's all lies.
[34:46.310 --> 34:48.750]  It was one person who liked a lot of things, apparently.
[34:49.110 --> 34:49.730]  It was spam.
[34:50.110 --> 34:51.770]  But you were, like, walking on air.
[34:51.770 --> 34:52.690]  It does that to you.
[34:52.690 --> 34:53.730]  You were walking on air.
[34:53.730 --> 34:54.830]  You were so happy.
[34:54.830 --> 34:55.590]  And then...
[34:55.590 --> 34:58.210]  I was going to sell all my possessions because I had reached nirvana.
[34:59.650 --> 35:00.050]  Wow.
[35:00.710 --> 35:02.690]  So sad to see the dreams crushed.
[35:02.890 --> 35:03.750]  Okay, we have another phone call.
[35:04.070 --> 35:04.450]  Good evening.
[35:04.590 --> 35:05.410]  You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
[35:07.170 --> 35:07.570]  Yes.
[35:08.650 --> 35:13.370]  First of all, I'm a very long-time listener, both to your show and the station.
[35:13.510 --> 35:17.410]  I've never called in before because I'm rather shy, so I'm kind of nervous.
[35:17.550 --> 35:17.970]  Oh, don't worry.
[35:17.970 --> 35:17.990]  Sorry.
[35:18.330 --> 35:19.470]  We're all friends here.
[35:19.670 --> 35:20.970]  I admire all of you.
[35:22.210 --> 35:27.050]  And, you know, I started listening around the time of the...
[35:27.050 --> 35:34.130]  Well, before Kevin Mitnick, and I was part of those protests and championing his cause.
[35:38.070 --> 35:50.850]  One of the things I've admired so much about you is that you've always presented all sides of an issue and really went the extra mile towards doing that.
[35:52.790 --> 36:07.710]  I'm very dismayed because I just see one side of an issue being presented, and it's almost as though you're vilifying and disparaging anyone else who has a different viewpoint.
[36:07.710 --> 36:11.490]  And I'm just... we're really just really...
[36:11.490 --> 36:30.210]  I don't know how to say strongly enough to really implore you to have someone, a credible person, scientist, doctor, whomever, reporter, to present a different side of the COVID vaccine issue.
[36:30.890 --> 36:31.450]  Well...
[36:31.450 --> 36:37.390]  We are not all irresponsible kooks or anything like that.
[36:37.470 --> 36:38.350]  I don't think we said that.
[36:38.530 --> 36:40.650]  I don't think we said irresponsible kooks.
[36:40.730 --> 36:44.730]  I think the worst that we said was misguided, misled.
[36:45.310 --> 36:48.670]  And as for having alternate viewpoint...
[36:48.670 --> 36:53.170]  All for alternate viewpoints, but they have to be founded in something.
[36:53.530 --> 36:59.310]  And, you know, we can't have people on who don't believe in gravity or who think the Earth is flat.
[36:59.510 --> 37:06.650]  You know, this is something that has been proven over and over again through a variety of sources.
[37:07.410 --> 37:24.830]  And I think if we are constantly having both sides of every issue represented when it's already been established, factually and scientifically, we're never going to get anywhere because we're going to constantly be debating the most basic of issues.
[37:25.310 --> 37:28.610]  And in this particular case, that issue is that the vaccine works.
[37:28.770 --> 37:32.530]  And that is something that is good for the vast majority of people.
[37:32.650 --> 37:34.430]  I'm not saying there are people that it doesn't work for.
[37:34.590 --> 37:41.930]  And that's why you should talk to your doctor, somebody who clearly understands both you and the medicine behind it.
[37:41.990 --> 37:45.690]  And if they say this is something you should not take, then listen to them.
[37:45.770 --> 37:46.150]  Absolutely.
[37:46.150 --> 38:03.190]  But as far as what's happening in the world, what's happening in our country, there is no scientific evidence to suggest in any way that the vaccine is harmful, that it does not do exactly what it claims to do.
[38:03.310 --> 38:12.050]  And we are so fortunate to be able to tackle this horrible disease that has killed so many people over the past year.
[38:12.270 --> 38:14.070]  Alex, I think you had something to say as well?
[38:14.070 --> 38:15.450]  Let me just respond to that.
[38:15.450 --> 38:15.710]  No, go ahead.
[38:15.910 --> 38:16.130]  Go ahead.
[38:16.550 --> 38:38.350]  I, you know, I totally agree with your sentiments about it's very serious, but there is credible evidence, not just from the 12 people that you mentioned last week, but there are literally thousands of doctors, scientists, who are speaking out about this.
[38:38.530 --> 38:39.730]  They're being suppressed.
[38:39.990 --> 38:41.930]  They're being vilified.
[38:41.930 --> 38:46.570]  People with astounding reputations.
[38:46.950 --> 39:01.390]  Even someone like Dr. Michael Yeadon, who was the vice president of Pfizer and one of their senior researchers, even he is coming out and saying these vaccines are dangerous.
[39:01.390 --> 39:09.830]  And also, a couple of weeks ago, somebody said that they weren't vaccines, and that person was kind of dismissed.
[39:10.070 --> 39:14.030]  Well, there's a reason why they're saying they're not vaccines.
[39:14.110 --> 39:16.830]  They do not impart any immunity.
[39:17.190 --> 39:21.350]  They are an experimental gene therapy.
[39:21.350 --> 39:30.930]  We have no idea what the long-term consequences of these, whatever you want to call them, will cause.
[39:31.130 --> 39:52.450]  And as of now, on the vaccine adverse reporting system that is run by the CDC, they've listed over 4,000 deaths and hundreds of thousands of serious injuries.
[39:53.290 --> 39:57.050]  And the CDC themselves, they...
[39:57.050 --> 40:01.290]  If you just forgive me, I'm not comfortable talking on the air.
[40:01.330 --> 40:01.730]  No, that's okay.
[40:01.790 --> 40:02.070]  Keep going.
[40:02.150 --> 40:02.550]  You're doing fine.
[40:02.930 --> 40:03.330]  Okay.
[40:03.330 --> 40:14.390]  But they themselves estimate that that is only 10% of the actual adverse reactions.
[40:14.390 --> 40:18.990]  And people who've had adverse reactions, they've been dismissed.
[40:19.490 --> 40:22.490]  I can send you a video of three women.
[40:22.990 --> 40:24.250]  Two of them were nurses.
[40:24.270 --> 40:25.390]  One was a CNA.
[40:25.950 --> 40:31.650]  Developed severe neurological problems because of it.
[40:32.050 --> 40:34.470]  They... people won't... doctors won't even treat them.
[40:34.570 --> 40:35.910]  They tell them it's all in their head.
[40:36.070 --> 40:37.530]  These were pro-vaccine women.
[40:37.530 --> 40:39.470]  These were not people who...
[40:39.470 --> 40:45.790]  And they had legitimate careers in the health profession.
[40:46.090 --> 40:53.790]  To me, though, it doesn't make sense that somebody in the medical field would refuse to treat somebody because they disagreed with them on something.
[40:53.970 --> 40:59.990]  You know, if they have a medical condition, they obviously should acknowledge that it should be taken seriously.
[40:59.990 --> 41:04.390]  You're saying that it's not simply because they're criticizing the vaccine?
[41:05.630 --> 41:06.790]  No, they're... no.
[41:06.790 --> 41:09.010]  No, people just don't...
[41:09.610 --> 41:12.630]  There's a suppression of what's going on.
[41:12.770 --> 41:14.650]  There are adverse effects.
[41:15.150 --> 41:20.550]  And there's something called the Great Barrington Declaration.
[41:20.550 --> 41:27.030]  This is over... this is about 60,000 doctors who are coming out and saying that this...
[41:27.030 --> 41:30.250]  that there's a danger here, that we went too fast.
[41:32.850 --> 41:38.990]  These chemicals, or whatever you want to call them, did not have adequate testing behind them.
[41:39.610 --> 41:43.450]  And it's okay, that 95% effectiveness?
[41:43.450 --> 41:44.490]  No.
[41:44.770 --> 41:50.350]  It's 95% relative to efficacy, not absolute.
[41:50.710 --> 41:56.630]  I downloaded the actual Pfizer study from the CDC website.
[41:56.630 --> 42:04.570]  It is 1% or 0.07% absolute effectiveness.
[42:04.790 --> 42:14.410]  So people are risking their lives or serious injuries for something that has only a 1% effectiveness.
[42:14.410 --> 42:19.150]  Okay, I don't see how that number possibly holds up.
[42:19.290 --> 42:24.690]  I mean, have you seen the death toll, how it has changed since the vaccine has been introduced?
[42:24.690 --> 42:25.810]  That's something that...
[42:26.190 --> 42:28.550]  I mean, you can't really dispute these numbers.
[42:28.790 --> 42:33.390]  Yeah, what intervention do you suggest in the face of the complications of COVID itself?
[42:33.730 --> 42:36.590]  Yeah, COVID... I mean, do you believe COVID is a threat?
[42:36.850 --> 42:42.450]  I mean, do you believe the numbers of deaths that we have seen both in this country and throughout the world over the last year?
[42:42.450 --> 42:47.810]  But it's not necessarily attributable to the count of the vaccines.
[42:48.150 --> 42:51.090]  It could be natural immunity occurring.
[42:51.390 --> 42:52.630]  That always happens.
[42:52.950 --> 42:58.670]  If natural immunity didn't occur in nature, the human race would have been wiped out.
[42:59.510 --> 43:03.410]  Yeah, but the natural immunity, are you saying it just started occurring now?
[43:04.390 --> 43:06.910]  Coincidentally, when the vaccines started to be distributed?
[43:08.890 --> 43:10.990]  It started before then.
[43:10.990 --> 43:12.910]  Not significantly.
[43:13.410 --> 43:15.130]  I mean, the numbers took a nosedive.
[43:15.350 --> 43:17.550]  You know, it's cause and effect.
[43:17.890 --> 43:20.870]  Well, also, there are other factors as well.
[43:21.330 --> 43:31.770]  Someone mentioned before that hydroxychloroquine, there's no evidence for it being effective against COVID.
[43:31.770 --> 43:32.590]  That's not true.
[43:32.590 --> 43:46.430]  There are 144 published, double-blind, procedure-controlled, randomized studies in the medical journal showing that it is effective.
[43:46.490 --> 43:48.010]  And it's not harmful.
[43:48.170 --> 44:00.730]  It was harmful because they gave it to people with 2,400 milligrams instead of 200 milligrams, which is the proper dosage, twice a week as opposed to 2,400 milligrams a day.
[44:00.730 --> 44:02.410]  No wonder it was killing people.
[44:02.810 --> 44:12.350]  There are nine medications that have been proven in the medical journals to be effective against COVID.
[44:12.610 --> 44:16.090]  The doctors who were using them were being persecuted.
[44:16.530 --> 44:28.670]  One of them is Dr. Pierre Torre, who has worked with more COVID patients than most doctors in the country have.
[44:28.670 --> 44:29.990]  I'm just going to let Rob jump in.
[44:30.010 --> 44:30.850]  I know he wants to say something.
[44:30.930 --> 44:31.270]  Go ahead, Rob.
[44:31.970 --> 44:37.910]  Yeah, I just wanted to address one comment the caller made, which is vaccines are not gene therapy.
[44:38.130 --> 44:43.670]  Gene therapy is a very specific thing that is meant to interact with your actual DNA, which is stored in the nucleus of your cells.
[44:43.970 --> 44:47.750]  The vaccines are based on mRNA, which is messenger RNA.
[44:48.070 --> 44:50.030]  And that's something completely different from DNA.
[44:50.250 --> 44:52.130]  It does not enter the nucleus of your cells.
[44:52.250 --> 44:55.030]  It does not interact with your personal genetic code.
[44:55.030 --> 45:01.410]  What it does is teach the cells how to build a certain protein that itself can protect you from the vaccine.
[45:01.830 --> 45:03.870]  Gene therapy is not a vaccine.
[45:04.130 --> 45:05.890]  Vaccines are not gene therapy.
[45:06.050 --> 45:08.230]  They are two completely different medical concepts.
[45:08.510 --> 45:13.710]  And it's a persistent piece of misinformation out there to confuse the two, but it is misinformation.
[45:14.310 --> 45:18.850]  Well, no, I totally agree that gene therapy is not a vaccine.
[45:20.850 --> 45:24.330]  And the COVID vaccines themselves are not gene therapy.
[45:25.710 --> 45:27.050]  It has nothing to do with it.
[45:28.330 --> 45:29.150]  I agree.
[45:29.710 --> 45:31.690]  Okay, we reached an agreement on something, at least.
[45:32.690 --> 45:34.130]  Okay, but what I'm saying...
[45:34.910 --> 45:38.810]  One of the people you mentioned last week was Dr. Tenpenny.
[45:39.750 --> 45:47.630]  She has offered to debate any doctor in the world who wants to refute her analysis.
[45:47.830 --> 45:48.790]  They won't debate her.
[45:48.790 --> 45:57.110]  Well, probably because they're busy, but I'm sure that there are plenty of doctors who will debate her if that's what it takes to convince other people.
[45:57.350 --> 46:04.410]  They have plenty of time to destroy people's reputations and disparage them, but they don't have any time.
[46:04.410 --> 46:06.310]  And I've never seen...
[46:06.310 --> 46:09.030]  I've been researching this for months.
[46:09.190 --> 46:23.730]  I have never seen anyone come and say to a doctor or a researcher they disagree with, okay, this is why I disagree with you, and do their own presentation.
[46:23.730 --> 46:24.870]  No, they don't do that.
[46:24.870 --> 46:27.050]  They just disparage a person.
[46:27.210 --> 46:28.870]  People have been fired from jobs.
[46:30.070 --> 46:33.290]  Dr. Pierre Corey lost his position.
[46:33.510 --> 46:41.370]  Well, I've seen people do this on the various news networks where they bring up their points and they address them issue by issue.
[46:41.510 --> 46:42.710]  So that does happen.
[46:42.810 --> 46:50.590]  It may not happen in what you're describing, but certainly these points have been debated and, I think, refuted.
[46:50.750 --> 46:53.550]  But that's, I guess, a matter of opinion as far as this goes.
[46:53.550 --> 47:06.730]  Let me just ask you, because we do have to move on, if, in fact, this vaccine is not effective, what is the game plan?
[47:06.910 --> 47:10.830]  Why is everybody saying it is if it isn't?
[47:11.250 --> 47:13.590]  Not everybody is saying it is.
[47:13.730 --> 47:22.790]  Well, okay, but the people you're talking about, the people in the medical field, the media, people like us.
[47:22.790 --> 47:23.970]  Who owns the media?
[47:24.290 --> 47:27.650]  How much advertising comes from the pharmaceutical companies?
[47:27.890 --> 47:31.270]  So you think it's a pharmaceutical company plot to do this?
[47:32.030 --> 47:37.350]  Well, I'm not going to say plot, but I'm just dealing in facts here, okay?
[47:37.870 --> 47:42.790]  Is it that the media is owned by the pharmaceutical companies?
[47:43.610 --> 47:46.130]  Do you think that they're really going to present...
[47:46.130 --> 47:47.410]  Well, we're not.
[47:47.630 --> 47:48.850]  We're not owned by them.
[47:49.770 --> 47:55.290]  I don't understand why you're not at least presenting another...
[47:55.290 --> 47:59.450]  Have you ever had any expert on your show to discuss this matter?
[47:59.750 --> 48:03.770]  Why don't you have Robert Kennedy Jr. on?
[48:03.870 --> 48:06.750]  Well, you picked an expert that says the things that you say.
[48:06.890 --> 48:14.350]  But if we were to get an expert, odds are it would be an expert that refutes all of these issues that you bring up, because most experts do.
[48:14.630 --> 48:15.930]  The vast majority do.
[48:15.970 --> 48:16.390]  Well, why don't you have a debate?
[48:16.530 --> 48:17.910]  Why don't you have one expert with...
[48:17.910 --> 48:21.670]  Just because somebody disagrees does not mean they're on equal footing.
[48:21.930 --> 48:25.610]  You see, that's a problem that we see on so many different discussions.
[48:26.810 --> 48:30.530]  And this position, all due respect, is nonsense.
[48:30.890 --> 48:33.410]  It has been disproven so many times.
[48:33.570 --> 48:37.590]  I applaud you for coming on and for presenting your case.
[48:37.590 --> 48:38.870]  It takes courage to do that.
[48:39.130 --> 48:41.790]  But I just... I'm not convinced.
[48:42.190 --> 48:43.210]  I'm not convinced.
[48:43.410 --> 48:48.350]  And, you know, feel free to try and convince as many experts as possible.
[48:48.350 --> 48:49.610]  I don't think it's going to work.
[48:50.010 --> 48:52.330]  It's the experts themselves.
[48:52.330 --> 49:06.170]  I sent you guys a 10-page email with replete with all kinds of links to highly credible sources.
[49:06.650 --> 49:11.350]  All orthodox doctors, scientists...
[49:11.350 --> 49:14.410]  Yeah, but pages and links, that's not the argument, okay?
[49:14.450 --> 49:20.670]  The argument is... that's the facts, that's the science, that's the medicine, and that's where it's falling short.
[49:21.610 --> 49:23.630]  Everything is backed up by science.
[49:24.850 --> 49:25.650]  Well, uh...
[49:25.650 --> 49:27.990]  I don't know why you won't take a look at it.
[49:28.090 --> 49:28.810]  I've sent it twice.
[49:28.810 --> 49:29.850]  I can send it again.
[49:30.210 --> 49:31.310]  That's not necessary.
[49:31.930 --> 49:33.530]  Listen, thank you for your call, seriously.
[49:34.370 --> 49:35.170]  And, um...
[49:35.730 --> 49:41.570]  Well, we're going to keep saying what we say, and no doubt you'll keep saying what you say as well.
[49:41.630 --> 49:42.390]  But, boy...
[49:42.930 --> 49:44.650]  Alex, did you have something you wanted to contribute?
[49:44.890 --> 49:46.450]  I'm sorry, the caller's gone, but go ahead.
[49:47.650 --> 49:48.430]  Sure, yeah.
[49:48.430 --> 49:50.170]  And I want to agree with you.
[49:50.170 --> 49:50.950]  It took guts to do that.
[49:51.090 --> 49:53.070]  I just wanted to make sure that that's understood.
[49:53.350 --> 49:57.170]  Just to stand up to everybody disagreeing with you, I respect that.
[49:57.230 --> 50:04.190]  But, boy, I feel bad that people are being misled into thinking that getting a vaccine is somehow a bad thing.
[50:04.350 --> 50:13.910]  It has been studied by scientists, by the medical profession, and it's a global effort.
[50:14.150 --> 50:15.330]  It's a global effort.
[50:15.430 --> 50:25.930]  There is nothing that you cannot point to, or that you can point to, that can't be refuted through, quote-unquote, evidence, and a list of people, supposed experts.
[50:26.330 --> 50:32.490]  Like I said, the theory of gravity, the theory of evolution, all of that can be debated forever.
[50:32.490 --> 50:36.590]  But we're not here to have constant debates that never end.
[50:36.690 --> 50:43.970]  We have to, at some point, agree on the facts and move forward and start implementing things that improve our lives.
[50:44.470 --> 50:45.570]  Alex, let's finish what you were saying.
[50:46.410 --> 50:46.650]  Sure.
[50:47.030 --> 50:47.170]  Yeah.
[50:47.670 --> 50:51.150]  Look, I want to make it clear.
[50:51.150 --> 50:59.850]  I disagree with these specific facts that the caller had raised, but I do tend to agree with some of her principles.
[50:59.850 --> 51:10.190]  So, in that, I think she's probably right, you know, in that we're a bit harsh, I think, on people who have made the choice not to get vaccinated.
[51:10.810 --> 51:13.530]  I think our criticism is always tempered.
[51:13.630 --> 51:18.190]  But, you know, 600,000 dead people in our country alone, that kind of makes me a little short-tempered.
[51:18.350 --> 51:19.150]  Not at all.
[51:19.290 --> 51:24.090]  But what I am saying, though, is that it's still a choice in this country whether or not to be vaccinated.
[51:24.310 --> 51:38.670]  I think we, some people, make the rational choice not to get vaccinated for the reasons that we mentioned earlier in this show, like religious reasons, there may be disability reasons, there may be, you may have other health consequences of having the vaccine,
[51:38.670 --> 51:43.530]  some kind of allergic reaction or something that would prevent you from having it, and all of these can be developed.
[51:43.970 --> 51:55.190]  You combine that with the fact that if you look at the history of vaccines in this country, it is pretty brutal and pretty horrible and a lot of really terrible things.
[51:55.350 --> 51:55.830]  Absolutely.
[51:57.050 --> 52:00.350]  In the name of vaccinations for the public good.
[52:00.590 --> 52:03.450]  And that's a history that we just certainly can't ignore.
[52:03.570 --> 52:04.730]  We have to wrangle with that.
[52:05.170 --> 52:08.770]  But those are all circumstantial issues.
[52:09.010 --> 52:10.490]  Those are all on the periphery.
[52:10.890 --> 52:19.610]  What's at the heart here are the specific facts I think that the caller mentioned that you mentioned, Emmanuel, can all be refuted by science, by medicine, by other facts.
[52:20.030 --> 52:30.630]  And I entirely agree with the position that we're taking here, which is that not everybody who disagrees is on equal footing with something that is an uncontroverted, incontestable fact.
[52:31.770 --> 52:49.670]  I don't think that history will prove us wrong on that, but I do think that the caller's courage in calling for the first time after being a long-time listener and bringing up such a polemical topic is to be applauded.
[52:49.670 --> 52:50.010]  Yes.
[52:50.850 --> 52:56.070]  To have these discussions, that's what WBAI is about and what this show is about.
[52:56.170 --> 53:00.530]  And I think what she mentioned about you, Emmanuel, is that you present to all sides here.
[53:01.010 --> 53:03.930]  We can seem a bit harsh, but yeah, you're right.
[53:04.090 --> 53:05.310]  600,000 people dead.
[53:05.550 --> 53:10.130]  How else would you explain the dramatic decrease in deaths after the vaccination?
[53:10.130 --> 53:13.130]  Well, I asked that very question and you noticed there was an answer for that.
[53:13.270 --> 53:20.170]  Every bit of fact that you bring up, there's an answer for that will make your facts wrong.
[53:20.550 --> 53:24.990]  And, you know, we can't do this every time we have a discussion.
[53:25.610 --> 53:31.930]  Sure, let's do it once and go over the various points and why we feel the way we feel.
[53:32.030 --> 53:40.250]  But if you want to get anywhere, if you want to accomplish anything, you've got to actually reach conclusions and start acting on those conclusions.
[53:40.510 --> 53:44.470]  That's how science works and that's, you know, how we are progressing.
[53:44.470 --> 53:45.690]  And we are progressing.
[53:45.910 --> 53:55.590]  But walking around now in the city without masks and going to the places we used to go to, the ones that survived, that's not just a coincidence.
[53:55.970 --> 53:59.370]  That's not because all of a sudden people built up immunities.
[53:59.530 --> 54:05.850]  No, it's because of the science that, thank God, we had so many people, more people than ever before.
[54:05.850 --> 54:12.710]  And that's why it happened faster to battle this thing and get us where we're getting.
[54:12.710 --> 54:14.710]  And it's not to say everything is perfect.
[54:14.870 --> 54:16.950]  It's not to say that there won't be some hiccups.
[54:17.090 --> 54:18.370]  I expect that.
[54:18.790 --> 54:24.910]  But look at the incontrovertible fact of the coronavirus and what that is doing.
[54:24.950 --> 54:26.330]  Look what it's doing right now in India.
[54:26.550 --> 54:27.050]  Okay?
[54:27.730 --> 54:30.370]  I mean, how do you explain that?
[54:31.170 --> 54:34.510]  They do not have enough vaccines right now.
[54:34.890 --> 54:35.390]  Period.
[54:35.770 --> 54:38.350]  If they did, this would not be happening.
[54:38.590 --> 54:39.050]  Period.
[54:39.670 --> 54:45.470]  I just, you know, I lose patience having to argue that point over and over again.
[54:46.830 --> 54:53.590]  There's certain things we just have to accept and treat as fact because they are facts.
[54:54.210 --> 55:03.890]  We have discussed it quite a bit and we had the call, of course, so the side has been presented if anyone was confused about that.
[55:04.030 --> 55:13.830]  But the more and the longer we pretend that it is a debate, the more damage it does directly.
[55:14.110 --> 55:20.370]  And that may have been entertaining in the intervening year when a vaccine was being developed and tested.
[55:20.450 --> 55:45.850]  But now is not an okay time to entertain more disinformation and doubt that could basically put people who would otherwise be interested in inoculating themselves put them at risk because then they maybe think, oh, well, this isn't really what it is or it's only 1% effective.
[55:45.990 --> 55:47.930]  This is a bad time for that.
[55:48.090 --> 55:49.830]  You can't be telling people that.
[55:50.130 --> 55:52.330]  We need to instill some confidence.
[55:52.330 --> 56:04.730]  People need to understand that this has been thought through, that people of good will put a lot of their energy into coming up with something that would help humanity.
[56:05.050 --> 56:29.730]  And I just find that incredibly offensive, the arrogance of this perspective demanding more, yet more time to sow this and in an instance where they've been told over and over again, if your preference, if your wish is not to participate, don't.
[56:29.830 --> 56:38.350]  It may come with some consequences, but you're more than what you have an open invitation to do whatever you want.
[56:38.490 --> 57:13.250]  But the minute you start, I'm sorry, when you begin to create an environment that is unsafe after we've been through lockdowns and you've had upsets over job loss and terrible strife to our communities and economies and morale to come in and think your experts should have more platform than they've already had,
[57:13.250 --> 57:16.470]  I'm just spitting offended by that.
[57:16.470 --> 57:17.230]  I'm sorry.
[57:17.390 --> 57:19.450]  I have nothing else to say.
[57:19.610 --> 57:29.370]  The other thing is think of the people over the last year that were mocking the precautions.
[57:29.930 --> 57:33.410]  And I refer specifically to the former president.
[57:34.330 --> 57:47.570]  These are the people that you're aligning yourselves with and saying, yeah, what they were saying was, even though they took care of themselves pretty quickly, they got the vaccines, they kept it quiet, but they did because they know they're talking crap.
[57:48.910 --> 58:00.550]  But it's not hard to get people to think this is some kind of a political issue or something that it's one side versus another or pharmaceutical plot.
[58:00.810 --> 58:04.830]  Look, I'm not happy that I got Pfizer to jab me twice in the arm.
[58:05.070 --> 58:05.250]  I'm not.
[58:05.350 --> 58:06.590]  I'm not a big fan of theirs.
[58:06.790 --> 58:12.710]  But I do have to recognize that sometimes drug companies make drugs that do what they're supposed to do.
[58:18.210 --> 58:19.870]  for one thing or another.
[58:20.590 --> 58:25.910]  And at least some of the time the drugs do what they're supposed to do.
[58:26.750 --> 58:29.370]  And that's not an endorsement of the company that
[58:47.570 --> 58:53.470]  have more courageous callers like that bringing up the most contentious issues of the day.
[58:53.550 --> 58:54.730]  I think it's fantastic.
[58:55.010 --> 58:56.590]  I welcome the debate.
[58:58.290 --> 58:59.650]  Alex, I don't want to debate.
[58:59.790 --> 59:00.470]  I'm not a scientist.
[59:00.490 --> 59:01.230]  I'm not a doctor.
[59:01.410 --> 59:06.770]  I will admit that I am not the person to come up with all the facts.
[59:06.850 --> 59:09.590]  But the people who are, they should be listened to.
[59:09.710 --> 59:12.350]  The Fauci's of the world, they know what they're talking about.
[59:12.510 --> 59:20.610]  And if you're going to tear him down and say he's part of some kind of international conspiracy, my God, what exactly is it that you do want?
[59:20.830 --> 59:22.290]  It's never going to end.
[59:22.450 --> 59:29.550]  When you find yourself just tearing apart the people who are the experts, well, then you don't want to debate the experts, do you?
[59:29.630 --> 59:34.610]  You just want your side to be heard and everybody else to be shut down.
[59:34.690 --> 59:37.270]  And I'm sorry, I can't accept that.
[59:37.990 --> 59:49.330]  Look, you've got to think about this from the perspective of the people who hold these views as well, which is that they are in the minority, their voices are being repressed, possibly unfairly.
[59:49.690 --> 59:54.610]  We've given this caller, this woman, I think a fair shake and opportunity to present her voice.
[59:54.810 --> 59:56.910]  She did so in a really courageous manner.
[59:57.750 --> 01:00:00.590]  And like I said earlier, I think that should be applauded.
[01:00:00.710 --> 01:00:07.650]  I certainly don't want to debate this same issue again, but I welcome callers to bring us the most difficult issues of the day, whatever they are.
[01:00:07.750 --> 01:00:10.910]  Hopefully they're not about the vaccine in a few months.
[01:00:11.250 --> 01:00:23.690]  But look, this is what we're here for, is to have these types of debates, to bring up the hard issues, to talk about things that people don't otherwise want to talk about in the so-called mainstream media.
[01:00:24.530 --> 01:00:27.050]  I think it's great that she called.
[01:00:27.050 --> 01:00:27.710]  I do.
[01:00:28.010 --> 01:00:37.930]  I disagree entirely with all of the facts that she had presented, but I think we need to encourage that kind of courage.
[01:00:38.110 --> 01:00:44.150]  Well, okay, fine, but I don't want to be having this conversation every single week, because it's going to get old awfully fast.
[01:00:44.850 --> 01:00:52.310]  Have the conversation on a variety of platforms, sure, go ahead, knock yourself out, show.
[01:00:52.490 --> 01:01:01.150]  We're trying to just focus on certain things and explain conclusions and logic and that kind of thing.
[01:01:01.710 --> 01:01:09.690]  And we're always open to being proven wrong, but not incessantly trying to make the same points over and over again, because that's what this will turn into.
[01:01:10.610 --> 01:01:11.390]  Rob, go ahead.
[01:01:12.230 --> 01:01:15.630]  And that's the thing, is like, I love being proven wrong.
[01:01:16.150 --> 01:01:32.330]  I feel like a lot of people who hold these views, there's sort of the sunken cost fallacy, where even if presented with information that begins to make sense to them, there is that human ego tendency to go, well, no, because if I admit I'm wrong now, that means I was wrong for all that time,
[01:01:32.450 --> 01:01:33.550]  and then I'm an idiot.
[01:01:33.550 --> 01:01:49.470]  but I always love being proven wrong, because when that happens, that means I get to discard something that was incorrect, and move on, enlightened with some more knowledge, some additional knowledge, and grow from there.
[01:01:49.770 --> 01:01:52.690]  And it's really a great thing when it happens.
[01:01:52.810 --> 01:01:59.510]  It is a privilege to learn, and ultimately I think it's what any of us are here on this planet to do, is to learn, and to grow.
[01:01:59.510 --> 01:02:07.190]  It is okay to have been wrong about something if you're moving forward and growing from that.
[01:02:07.630 --> 01:02:21.170]  It's just, you know, there are so many examples that we can point to over the past however many years, where a point is made, it's refuted, it's proven to be wrong, and that's never enough.
[01:02:21.370 --> 01:02:26.230]  Like, for instance, Obama's birth certificate, okay, you remember that?
[01:02:28.010 --> 01:02:33.150]  The most ridiculous thing ever, and finally presented, which I think was a mistake.
[01:02:33.330 --> 01:02:37.670]  But no, for whatever reason, that's not good enough, because something else is being hidden now.
[01:02:38.130 --> 01:02:54.250]  And time and time again, Trump's tax returns, there's all these issues that you want to make a particular stand about, but the other side tells you, no, that's invalid because of this reason, and it just never ends.
[01:02:54.330 --> 01:03:00.090]  It never comes that point where one side says, I see what you're saying.
[01:03:00.330 --> 01:03:01.750]  I get the point now.
[01:03:01.750 --> 01:03:04.390]  I'm convinced you won me over.
[01:03:04.550 --> 01:03:05.850]  That doesn't happen anymore.
[01:03:06.210 --> 01:03:07.830]  And that's a real tragedy.
[01:03:08.130 --> 01:03:08.570]  Gila, go ahead.
[01:03:09.130 --> 01:03:10.090]  It won't happen.
[01:03:10.250 --> 01:03:11.830]  And I'm, by the way, I'm with Kyle.
[01:03:12.010 --> 01:03:15.470]  I know I've been pretty quiet so far, but I am with Kyle.
[01:03:15.690 --> 01:03:22.970]  I was stunned, speechless by what it takes to keep pushing that same argument.
[01:03:22.970 --> 01:03:37.350]  It is frustrating, but I think there's also been something of a shift in the discourse in maybe the last 15 years that if you say it more often and you say it more loudly, you're saying it correctly.
[01:03:38.030 --> 01:03:47.930]  It's the Real Housewives reunion effect where if you just keep repeating your version of events more and more loudly and more and more frequently, eventually you win.
[01:03:49.370 --> 01:03:55.470]  And I've been frustrated by what that's done to the national discourse, to world health in general now.
[01:03:56.330 --> 01:03:58.970]  And yeah, totally with you, Kyle, 100%.
[01:03:58.970 --> 01:04:01.030]  Well, yeah, it's like it repeats and repeats.
[01:04:01.110 --> 01:04:04.230]  You're like, okay, this is, it's like a spam email.
[01:04:04.230 --> 01:04:05.370]  You're like, oh, this is spam.
[01:04:05.470 --> 01:04:07.730]  Like, oh, this is psychological, you know, this is psyops.
[01:04:07.990 --> 01:04:09.750]  If you reply to the spam, don't go away.
[01:04:09.850 --> 01:04:11.110]  This is corrosive.
[01:04:11.210 --> 01:04:20.050]  This is meant, it's having the effect it was meant to have, which is to damage and destroy faith and trust in one another and in humanity and your community.
[01:04:20.350 --> 01:04:27.550]  National solidarity, whatever it is, it's having the effect because nowhere is it getting anywhere, you know, coming to a conclusion.
[01:04:27.750 --> 01:04:28.790]  Like he said.
[01:04:28.990 --> 01:04:36.610]  Do you think that's the desire of the person making the argument or is that something they just get swept up in?
[01:04:37.030 --> 01:04:37.590]  The latter.
[01:04:38.350 --> 01:04:38.850]  Absolutely.
[01:04:38.950 --> 01:04:42.170]  It's like, okay, I'm seeing a pattern here.
[01:04:42.410 --> 01:04:44.110]  It's like, it's not ending.
[01:04:44.350 --> 01:04:47.110]  They're just following the rabbit hole.
[01:04:47.130 --> 01:04:48.650]  How does somebody get swept up in that?
[01:04:48.730 --> 01:04:49.790]  And could that happen to us?
[01:04:50.910 --> 01:05:03.310]  Everyone thinks they're immune from it, but being swept up in some kind of, you know, mass argument for one side or another, how do you realize that your side isn't making sense?
[01:05:04.330 --> 01:05:06.510]  How does that ever happen?
[01:05:06.910 --> 01:05:09.330]  When the Pfizer checks stop coming.
[01:05:12.150 --> 01:05:19.190]  Guys, we have to wrap this up because we've gone well over an hour on this and I didn't mean for it to be so COVID-related.
[01:05:20.530 --> 01:05:23.870]  Look, I think we're in better shape now than we were even a month ago.
[01:05:24.110 --> 01:05:26.110]  I think we're heading in the right direction.
[01:05:26.270 --> 01:05:31.970]  I think we've got a long way to go and I think there is still plenty of opportunities for us to screw up and go right back back to where we were.
[01:05:32.740 --> 01:05:47.550]  But we need people to think independently but logically and to understand that science, medicine, these things, these are good things.
[01:05:48.280 --> 01:05:53.250]  And yeah, question all you want to but understand the facts.
[01:05:53.850 --> 01:05:55.990]  Accept the facts when they become apparent.
[01:05:56.750 --> 01:06:00.150]  Don't have the conclusion ready before you ask the questions.
[01:06:01.570 --> 01:06:02.190]  You know?
[01:06:04.390 --> 01:06:05.410]  We're all in this together.
[01:06:05.690 --> 01:06:07.430]  And I think we all want the same thing.
[01:06:07.610 --> 01:06:08.130]  I don't know though.
[01:06:09.170 --> 01:06:11.870]  It's becoming hard to know for sure.
[01:06:12.710 --> 01:06:16.130]  Especially with some of the political agendas that I see today.
[01:06:16.850 --> 01:06:18.390]  Any closing thoughts, folks?
[01:06:19.370 --> 01:06:20.670]  Before we stagger out of here?
[01:06:21.870 --> 01:06:23.070]  I got one thing.
[01:06:23.330 --> 01:06:23.490]  Go ahead.
[01:06:23.510 --> 01:06:24.930]  And I'm thinking about this more.
[01:06:25.590 --> 01:06:36.250]  I was looking through some old correspondence and I found a discussion I had a long time ago and someone said, look, do you want to be right or do you want to be smart?
[01:06:37.550 --> 01:06:38.930]  You have to make the decision.
[01:06:39.130 --> 01:06:40.850]  Do you want to be right or do you want to be smart?
[01:06:41.270 --> 01:06:45.110]  And I think that sometimes we need to take that into account.
[01:06:45.310 --> 01:06:49.390]  That maybe being right isn't always...
[01:06:50.530 --> 01:06:51.250]  You always...
[01:06:51.950 --> 01:06:54.350]  I'm not 100% sure what the thought I was going with was.
[01:06:55.670 --> 01:06:57.030]  Sorry, it just popped into my head.
[01:06:57.210 --> 01:06:58.470]  Be open to being wrong.
[01:06:58.750 --> 01:06:59.090]  Right.
[01:06:59.290 --> 01:07:00.430]  Yes, absolutely.
[01:07:00.770 --> 01:07:02.730]  And being right doesn't mean that you are right.
[01:07:02.910 --> 01:07:04.750]  In your head, you think you're right.
[01:07:05.970 --> 01:07:07.250]  It's a certain stubbornness.
[01:07:07.390 --> 01:07:07.810]  No, totally.
[01:07:08.030 --> 01:07:08.190]  Right.
[01:07:08.810 --> 01:07:08.970]  Right.
[01:07:09.550 --> 01:07:10.130]  Alex, yes.
[01:07:11.070 --> 01:07:15.850]  Yeah, I think Gil's sentiment is right on in that sense, right?
[01:07:15.950 --> 01:07:27.690]  And that sometimes you can be seen as right, but not necessarily that may not make you look this smart...
[01:07:29.570 --> 01:07:32.830]  It may not look like you look like the smartest person in the world, right?
[01:07:32.910 --> 01:07:34.630]  Because of what Rob had mentioned earlier, right?
[01:07:35.070 --> 01:07:38.110]  You were taking contrary positions for a long period of time.
[01:07:38.850 --> 01:07:40.770]  Changing your mind is okay.
[01:07:41.170 --> 01:07:48.190]  But also, to Gila's point, I think being right and being smart are not mutually exclusive.
[01:07:49.230 --> 01:07:51.450]  You can have both at the same time.
[01:07:51.930 --> 01:07:58.170]  And you can have been not right in the past and still be right now and still be smart.
[01:07:58.170 --> 01:07:59.410]  It's okay to change your mind.
[01:07:59.810 --> 01:08:01.370]  And things can change.
[01:08:01.590 --> 01:08:02.490]  There is no question.
[01:08:02.650 --> 01:08:03.970]  Things can change.
[01:08:04.070 --> 01:08:04.790]  Facts can change.
[01:08:04.870 --> 01:08:05.310]  They have.
[01:08:05.510 --> 01:08:09.010]  Remember at first we thought wearing masks wasn't the right thing.
[01:08:09.010 --> 01:08:10.310]  Then they were the right thing.
[01:08:10.990 --> 01:08:13.070]  As we learn things are going to change.
[01:08:13.090 --> 01:08:17.210]  It doesn't mean the people are incompetent who are reaching these conclusions.
[01:08:17.250 --> 01:08:20.530]  It means that this is new territory for so many of us.
[01:08:21.070 --> 01:08:43.150]  And unless you really have evidence of some insidious plot that somehow is worldwide and affects millions and millions of people, people, let's assume that we want the same thing, that we are trying to get through this, and I can't imagine why we wouldn't be and why we try to make things worse.
[01:08:45.450 --> 01:08:52.910]  Okay, I'm talked out, and if people want to reach us, they can write to us, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[01:08:52.910 --> 01:08:56.270]  No doubt our mailbox is already full of angry emails.
[01:08:56.850 --> 01:08:58.170]  Send us some nice emails.
[01:08:58.550 --> 01:09:00.430]  Boy, that call from Labrador is nice.
[01:09:00.530 --> 01:09:01.310]  Seems so long ago.
[01:09:02.690 --> 01:09:10.070]  Okay, we will be back next week, hopefully, and stay safe, stay healthy.
[01:09:10.410 --> 01:09:13.150]  For God's sake, people get vaccinated if you have not already.
[01:09:14.270 --> 01:09:14.970]  Good night.