[00:45.920 --> 00:51.880]  This is WBAI New York 99.5 FM and WBAI.org online.
[00:52.320 --> 00:54.300]  Stay tuned for Off the Hook.
[00:54.300 --> 00:58.080]  It will be up and ready to go very shortly.
[00:58.080 --> 01:00.080]  So, please stand by.
[01:42.620 --> 01:47.260]  Okay, before we lose any more time trying to stay connected to the station, this is Off the Hook.
[01:47.280 --> 01:48.240]  We are on the air.
[01:48.420 --> 01:49.240]  I hope we're on the air.
[01:49.800 --> 01:52.140]  Manuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by Kyle.
[01:52.500 --> 01:52.900]  Yes.
[01:52.900 --> 01:54.720]  He's torn pretty much all his hair out now.
[01:55.880 --> 01:56.600]  Red Hack.
[02:00.180 --> 02:01.140]  And Alex.
[02:02.600 --> 02:03.300]  Good evening.
[02:03.980 --> 02:05.300]  Rob P. Firefly.
[02:06.160 --> 02:07.060]  Good evening.
[02:07.620 --> 02:08.220]  And Gila.
[02:08.880 --> 02:09.180]  Hello.
[02:09.780 --> 02:11.400]  I'm sorry for all the mayhem and...
[02:11.400 --> 02:11.820]  Wait a minute.
[02:12.200 --> 02:12.760]  Red Hack.
[02:14.480 --> 02:15.120]  He, uh...
[02:15.120 --> 02:15.600]  Is that Red Hack?
[02:15.680 --> 02:16.800]  He hasn't been on the air in 10 years.
[02:17.120 --> 02:19.980]  Red Hack, is that you or is that an invitation?
[02:20.760 --> 02:21.900]  Uh, it's a doppelganger.
[02:22.020 --> 02:22.460]  No, it's me.
[02:22.660 --> 02:23.220]  Oh, wow.
[02:24.500 --> 02:27.320]  Have we been skipping over you all these years?
[02:28.100 --> 02:28.420]  Or...
[02:28.420 --> 02:30.080]  No, this is a special occasion, right?
[02:30.320 --> 02:30.640]  You're...
[02:30.640 --> 02:31.360]  Where are you?
[02:31.700 --> 02:34.740]  Well, I got lost in the studio and ended up in the closet.
[02:35.060 --> 02:36.580]  I think we're all lost in the studio.
[02:36.800 --> 02:37.900]  That's what happens.
[02:37.900 --> 02:39.420]  Uh, I'm in California.
[02:39.420 --> 02:40.460]  I moved to California.
[02:41.060 --> 02:42.420]  That's why we don't see you around.
[02:42.600 --> 02:42.880]  Okay.
[02:43.260 --> 02:45.160]  Um, well, um, we've missed you.
[02:45.620 --> 02:48.160]  Uh, and welcome, welcome to the station.
[02:48.300 --> 02:50.380]  As it is, we're kind of virtual right now.
[02:50.520 --> 02:52.940]  And as you can see, kind of discombobulated.
[02:53.420 --> 02:57.660]  Um, any, anything you want to share with the listeners as to what you've been up to for the last decade?
[02:58.380 --> 02:59.240]  Uh, I don't know.
[02:59.320 --> 03:00.300]  Getting older, I guess.
[03:01.240 --> 03:04.860]  Um, no, just, yeah, living in California.
[03:05.220 --> 03:09.560]  It's, uh, enjoying the heat waves and the forest fires and, you know.
[03:09.860 --> 03:13.540]  Well, you know, that's a positive attitude to be enjoying all the mayhem and chaos.
[03:13.760 --> 03:15.840]  You know, we just had a blast here.
[03:16.020 --> 03:19.380]  So we're having a lot of fun, uh, trying to connect to the station and all that.
[03:19.380 --> 03:20.940]  It's just, it's, it's, it's wonderful.
[03:21.220 --> 03:27.500]  But, um, now, um, you, um, um, were recently listening to all editions of the show.
[03:27.880 --> 03:28.280]  Yeah.
[03:28.320 --> 03:31.160]  And it kind of made you, um, uh, reminiscent, I guess.
[03:31.540 --> 03:32.880]  Yeah, it made me nostalgic.
[03:32.880 --> 03:36.880]  I mean, I started doing the show, gosh, it must be like 20 years ago, right?
[03:37.060 --> 03:43.000]  And then, uh, and so I went back and I was listening to the, the old episodes and, and it was kind of cool.
[03:43.140 --> 03:45.680]  It's like this time capsule, you know, of the person I was.
[03:45.900 --> 03:46.820]  Yeah, it's pretty much exactly.
[03:46.820 --> 03:47.100]  Exactly.
[03:47.400 --> 03:55.020]  It is a time capsule because what you do is you go back and you hear not only what we're talking about, but you hear how the technology has changed.
[03:55.120 --> 03:57.000]  You hear how phones sounded different.
[03:57.000 --> 04:01.620]  And we were talking about different types of connectivity or connectivity period.
[04:01.840 --> 04:05.340]  When we first started, there really wasn't an internet as we know it now.
[04:06.020 --> 04:08.020]  Um, so yeah, it's a time capsule.
[04:08.200 --> 04:08.940]  It's, it's really something.
[04:09.100 --> 04:13.940]  And it's, it's great to be able to record this and save it, you know, with all its imperfections.
[04:14.180 --> 04:16.800]  It's, it's, it's just, um, it's a picture of where we were.
[04:16.820 --> 04:19.040]  We've been, and hopefully we'll continue to do that.
[04:19.140 --> 04:21.800]  And, and that's true of, of many shows here on WBAI.
[04:22.360 --> 04:28.300]  So, um, uh, anything, uh, exciting technology-wise going on, uh, in your part of the world?
[04:29.300 --> 04:30.020]  Oh, always.
[04:30.480 --> 04:32.020]  Um, but no, I don't know.
[04:32.180 --> 04:36.480]  I mean, anything specifically you were curious about?
[04:36.660 --> 04:38.340]  Well, no, I mean, you work in, in high tech.
[04:38.480 --> 04:41.140]  We're not going to say where you work or, or anything like that.
[04:41.140 --> 04:52.140]  But, uh, obviously, um, uh, that would draw you, um, just, uh, any, any, um, advances or, um, or interesting adventures that, that you cater to share?
[04:53.500 --> 04:58.680]  Uh, uh, uh, no.
[04:58.960 --> 04:59.900]  Okay, good, good.
[05:00.100 --> 05:06.480]  Um, well then in that case, uh, how about just, uh, insight as we discuss various things on, on this show?
[05:06.480 --> 05:10.640]  I gotta say, you're, you're, you're hopping all over the place, uh, we're looking at you on, on video.
[05:11.380 --> 05:19.420]  And, uh, I would think you would have the best connectivity of anybody, but you actually, you're kind of jumping every, every five seconds to another part of the room.
[05:19.560 --> 05:20.540]  It's kind of, kind of weird looking.
[05:21.020 --> 05:22.260]  Uh, you know, let me see.
[05:22.440 --> 05:25.940]  It might be, uh, that somebody else in the house is playing video games or something.
[05:26.100 --> 05:26.460]  Oh, yeah.
[05:26.840 --> 05:28.440]  That'll, well, I wouldn't do that.
[05:28.500 --> 05:29.480]  That might start a war.
[05:36.480 --> 05:38.720]  You guys, and, uh, on things that have happened in the last week?
[05:40.900 --> 05:42.320]  Um, what's been going on?
[05:42.460 --> 05:44.440]  We had a, uh, 2600 meeting in person.
[05:44.580 --> 05:44.840]  Yes.
[05:45.040 --> 05:45.640]  How was that?
[05:45.760 --> 05:47.140]  You went to, uh, in Manhattan.
[05:47.740 --> 05:49.160]  You guys actually had it.
[05:49.220 --> 05:51.100]  Did you have it in the building or did you have to go outside?
[05:51.620 --> 05:53.100]  We, we did not have it in the building.
[05:53.260 --> 05:58.140]  Construction was still, uh, underway at the atrium on, uh, at 375 3rd Avenue.
[05:58.360 --> 06:04.620]  So, we, uh, had it at the main entrance to the building, which, uh, I, I, if I remember correctly, was something you suggested.
[06:05.080 --> 06:07.440]  And, uh, yeah, there's a, there's a big awning there.
[06:07.580 --> 06:09.500]  There's a lot of space to stand and move around.
[06:09.500 --> 06:10.940]  And we were protected from the weather.
[06:11.440 --> 06:15.300]  So, it was, uh, there, there was maybe a dozen of us there at one point.
[06:15.440 --> 06:18.100]  And, uh, it was really, really good to see everyone again.
[06:18.560 --> 06:21.200]  Um, uh, fed my soul as these things do.
[06:21.420 --> 06:28.060]  And, uh, we, we also had the, the Zoom, the virtual meeting, um, up on my phone at the meeting.
[06:28.200 --> 06:32.500]  So, so we could sort of connect the people who wanted to show up in person and the people who wanted to attend virtually.
[06:32.500 --> 06:34.880]  And, uh, it, it kind of worked.
[06:35.120 --> 06:35.940]  We're figuring things out.
[06:36.080 --> 06:39.600]  And, uh, hopefully we'll have more figured out by, by next month.
[06:39.640 --> 06:39.720]  Yeah.
[06:39.760 --> 06:44.140]  If you expect perfection, you've come to the wrong place because we're always figuring things out and tweaking them.
[06:44.260 --> 06:47.840]  But we had 13 meetings on Friday throughout the, uh, the country.
[06:48.300 --> 06:49.640]  And I was very impressed with that.
[06:49.740 --> 06:51.420]  I figured we'd have much less than that.
[06:51.540 --> 06:55.560]  But, uh, the enthusiasm that we got, uh, from, from people was great.
[06:55.560 --> 07:10.560]  Uh, and as, as we've mentioned, uh, we're only having meetings in places where the, the vaccination rate is, uh, 40% or above the total vaccination rate, which pretty much rules out, uh, other countries at the moment, but hopefully not for long.
[07:10.700 --> 07:12.840]  And it rules out a number of states as well.
[07:12.960 --> 07:16.480]  So there are, there are more meetings that want to start, but obviously we can't yet.
[07:16.900 --> 07:21.060]  Um, but the 13 that we started with, um, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty happy with that.
[07:21.580 --> 07:26.500]  And, uh, and hopefully, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll see more people and, and, and get through this.
[07:26.720 --> 07:30.140]  And we've lost, uh, we've lost Red Hat entirely now.
[07:30.920 --> 07:31.180]  Wow.
[07:31.400 --> 07:31.860]  I'm still here.
[07:31.960 --> 07:32.520]  I should be here.
[07:32.520 --> 07:33.240]  Well, you're not here.
[07:33.400 --> 07:39.440]  I don't see your, your face anymore, but maybe, maybe, uh, the video game player has gotten the advantage.
[07:39.880 --> 07:41.460]  Alex, it looks like you've, you've got something you want to say.
[07:42.680 --> 07:43.020]  Yeah.
[07:43.120 --> 07:46.280]  I mean, I don't know about you guys, but it was, uh, it was a bit of a short week.
[07:46.480 --> 07:52.640]  Because, um, we had celebrated, uh, the 244th birthday of America.
[07:53.020 --> 07:54.140]  Was, was that this?
[07:54.280 --> 07:55.280]  Oh, I missed it.
[07:55.360 --> 07:55.460]  What?
[07:55.520 --> 07:55.700]  Yeah.
[07:56.260 --> 07:57.720]  I always, oh, okay.
[07:58.060 --> 07:58.400]  Next time.
[07:58.740 --> 08:00.140]  Birthday America, whenever you have a chance.
[08:00.260 --> 08:00.500]  Mm-hmm.
[08:00.860 --> 08:13.040]  Um, and, you know, it was wonderful because out here in Pennsylvania in the Poconos, we had, uh, a whole bunch of people over, um, and it was great, you know, all, but I, I will have to say this.
[08:13.040 --> 08:13.920]  It's a bit of a riddle.
[08:13.920 --> 08:16.720]  Well, we had everyone here very safely.
[08:17.160 --> 08:23.980]  However, more than half the people who came to my house were unvaccinated.
[08:25.160 --> 08:26.840]  And why is that exactly?
[08:27.500 --> 08:28.620]  Can you figure it out?
[08:28.920 --> 08:30.520]  Uh, ooh, ooh, pick me, pick me.
[08:30.720 --> 08:31.300]  Go ahead, Kayla.
[08:31.600 --> 08:32.000]  Go ahead.
[08:32.460 --> 08:33.500]  Sorry, I got so excited.
[08:34.000 --> 08:34.900]  Alex, were they children?
[08:34.900 --> 08:36.100]  That's correct.
[08:36.360 --> 08:37.180]  That's right.
[08:37.540 --> 08:37.620]  Uh-huh.
[08:38.220 --> 08:39.340]  Well, that's better than my guess.
[08:39.340 --> 08:40.700]  I was going to say, are they dumbasses?
[08:40.920 --> 08:41.580]  But, okay, fine.
[08:42.400 --> 08:45.400]  You know, I, I would say, you know, they have a lot to learn.
[08:45.480 --> 08:49.220]  60% of the unvaccinated people were also illiterate.
[08:49.780 --> 08:52.020]  So, you know, there, there's that.
[08:52.420 --> 08:53.740]  Shut up your standards, man.
[08:53.800 --> 08:55.020]  Well, it's not a high bar out there in Pennsylvania.
[08:55.020 --> 09:06.820]  I had, uh, you know, my, two of my closest friends came over, um, and they brought their three kids and we have two kids, so we were outnumbered by unvaccinated peoples here.
[09:07.120 --> 09:18.960]  Um, thankfully, you know, the virus doesn't affect children as readily as, as, uh, as adults, but, uh, I am really hoping that, you know, we can get on the ball about vaccinating children soon.
[09:19.300 --> 09:19.800]  Yeah, yeah.
[09:19.940 --> 09:21.640]  I know it's, it's, it's being looked at.
[09:21.960 --> 09:27.100]  Um, I don't know how it is for you in New York, but in California, it almost feels like things are back to normal.
[09:27.280 --> 09:29.680]  Like, uh, we went on a vacation last week.
[09:29.680 --> 09:39.100]  We went out by Yosemite and I mean, basically, you know, masks, people, people don't wear masks anywhere anymore for the most part.
[09:39.260 --> 09:41.540]  I mean, people do, of course, and that's fine, right?
[09:41.640 --> 09:43.140]  Especially children and things like that.
[09:43.220 --> 09:49.040]  But it just, I don't know, it just felt very much like things had kind of gotten back to the norm.
[09:49.340 --> 09:52.760]  Well, there's not a whole lot of indoor things going on at Yosemite, I don't think, right?
[09:52.900 --> 09:53.560]  It's mostly outdoors.
[09:53.560 --> 09:58.700]  Well, no, but I mean, I, I just mean in, you know, restaurants and shops, grocery stores and, you know, all of that, right?
[09:58.700 --> 10:03.560]  You know, there was this period of time where, uh, it was this kind of, what?
[10:03.720 --> 10:11.200]  Black Mirror-ish, uh, uh, situation and, uh, and, and, and it felt very much the opposite of that, uh, last week.
[10:11.380 --> 10:12.480]  And, uh, for good reason.
[10:12.760 --> 10:15.160]  I mean, your vaccine rates are, are, are up there.
[10:15.400 --> 10:18.340]  You're, um, you're in an acceptable zone.
[10:18.480 --> 10:22.760]  There are places though where that's not the case and that's why there's more restrictions in some parts of the world.
[10:23.240 --> 10:32.460]  Um, so it's not done yet, but we're making progress and obviously, uh, we're seeing how to make progress and what we need to do, what we need to continue to do.
[10:32.740 --> 10:34.580]  Uh, so yeah, these are good steps.
[10:34.740 --> 10:41.420]  And, and in New York, it does, I would say, what do you guys, uh, uh, you love, um, you think it's back to normal?
[10:41.420 --> 10:42.600]  Does it feel back to normal to you?
[10:44.820 --> 10:57.380]  Um, it's getting there, but you know, people are wearing masks less outside and currently the new accessory you're seeing is the wrist mask because people accept that they're still wearing them inside.
[10:57.380 --> 10:58.960]  They're still wearing them on transit.
[10:59.040 --> 11:02.280]  But when you're outside, you take it off, you wrap it around your wrist.
[11:02.780 --> 11:03.220]  Yeah.
[11:03.340 --> 11:04.320]  It's like a little clutch.
[11:04.480 --> 11:04.800]  It's adorable.
[11:05.460 --> 11:09.200]  Um, we also, we went to a movie over the weekend.
[11:09.200 --> 11:16.820]  We went to a movie in a theater over the weekend, which was a brand new, not a brand new experience for us, obviously, but first time in a long time.
[11:17.340 --> 11:19.480]  Um, it was great.
[11:19.980 --> 11:21.920]  There were not a lot of people there.
[11:22.160 --> 11:26.100]  Um, and it was a theater where we got to select our seating ahead of time.
[11:26.320 --> 11:27.660]  There were people two rows.
[11:27.820 --> 11:28.020]  Yeah.
[11:28.420 --> 11:29.500]  There were people two rows ahead of us.
[11:29.600 --> 11:30.780]  People a row behind us.
[11:31.040 --> 11:37.700]  Um, I had forgotten what it felt to be like laughing in public with people.
[11:37.700 --> 11:41.720]  Um, at the same time, not like lagging over Zoom.
[11:41.900 --> 11:43.140]  Because you're known for that.
[11:43.340 --> 11:44.960]  You laugh a lot in public.
[11:45.300 --> 11:45.960]  And, uh...
[11:45.960 --> 11:46.300]  Yeah.
[11:46.640 --> 11:48.800]  The sound of your laughter carries for blocks.
[11:49.000 --> 11:50.440]  And, uh, it's a wonderful thing.
[11:51.100 --> 11:52.440]  Um, but yeah, I...
[11:52.440 --> 11:53.620]  These little things, they matter.
[11:53.760 --> 11:54.300]  They really do.
[11:54.600 --> 11:59.840]  Uh, just being able to go to a meeting, go to a movie, walk outside without a mask.
[12:00.140 --> 12:02.140]  Um, but you mentioned mass transit.
[12:02.260 --> 12:04.880]  Yeah, you still have to wear a mask on mass transit in New York.
[12:05.060 --> 12:05.860]  That's correct, right?
[12:05.860 --> 12:07.300]  Uh, it is.
[12:07.420 --> 12:09.340]  And I can tell you, I was on the subway yesterday.
[12:09.800 --> 12:11.480]  Um, they kept...
[12:11.480 --> 12:19.100]  I'm assuming hitting the button for the announcement that said you have to keep a mask that covers your mouth and nose on over the entire train ride.
[12:19.300 --> 12:26.420]  And people heard it and were, like, personally offended and felt victimized but still put the mask on.
[12:26.480 --> 12:28.840]  You heard them, you watched them, they didn't have a mask on.
[12:28.840 --> 12:32.300]  They heard the announcement, they made a face, and put the thing on.
[12:33.420 --> 12:34.820]  So, it's fascinating.
[12:35.240 --> 12:36.340]  It's working.
[12:37.520 --> 12:40.800]  Um, it was the most crowded train I've been on in a long time, actually.
[12:41.240 --> 12:42.640]  Yeah, well, that's why.
[12:42.880 --> 12:44.120]  Because we still have to be careful.
[12:44.420 --> 12:51.960]  You know, I worry a little bit about London because they're pretty much wiping out all their restrictions, including wearing masks on mass transit.
[12:51.960 --> 12:54.460]  And they're not yet at the numbers that we are at.
[12:54.720 --> 12:56.340]  So, it's kind of wishful thinking.
[12:56.740 --> 12:59.380]  And, uh, I, I really hope it works out well.
[12:59.800 --> 13:01.800]  But, uh, we have to, we have to pay attention.
[13:01.960 --> 13:03.520]  We have to, uh, do the smart thing.
[13:03.720 --> 13:05.580]  And, and hopefully we'll, we'll continue to do that.
[13:05.980 --> 13:09.980]  Acknowledge there's going to be a bit of awkwardness and a sort of a period, period of adjustment.
[13:10.400 --> 13:10.660]  Mm-hmm.
[13:11.620 --> 13:11.860]  Yeah.
[13:12.160 --> 13:13.480]  And so, we've never been through this before.
[13:13.640 --> 13:14.980]  So, it's, it's new for all of us.
[13:15.140 --> 13:17.720]  And not everybody knows everything.
[13:18.420 --> 13:20.120]  Or nobody really knows everything.
[13:20.420 --> 13:21.320]  People are going to make mistakes.
[13:21.960 --> 13:22.540]  Uh, okay.
[13:22.660 --> 13:23.860]  So, let's, let's get into some news.
[13:24.040 --> 13:38.060]  Uh, you might have heard today that, uh, the former president has filed, uh, proposed class action lawsuits against Facebook, Twitter, uh, as well as, um, uh, CEOs, Mark Zuckerberg, Jack Dorsey, uh, Sundar Pichai.
[13:38.780 --> 13:45.140]  Um, they come six months after Trump was permanently or temporarily suspended from all three platforms.
[13:45.260 --> 13:50.420]  He announced the lawsuits at a press conference today following an early report by Axios.
[13:50.420 --> 13:57.560]  Thus, he referred to the cases as a very, uh, important game changer for our country.
[13:58.080 --> 14:03.620]  However, the claims are based on an amalgamation of mostly untested or disregarded legal arguments.
[14:04.140 --> 14:06.180]  I mean, it wouldn't be Trump if it wasn't.
[14:06.440 --> 14:13.780]  And, uh, they, they come after numerous other failed attempts to sue social media companies over suspensions or other forms of moderation.
[14:13.780 --> 14:17.040]  I, you know, I, I should actually read the headline from this Verge story.
[14:17.600 --> 14:21.880]  Uh, Donald Trump files sweeping nonsensical lawsuits against Facebook, Twitter, and Google.
[14:22.640 --> 14:24.540]  Um, uh, that, that pretty much wraps it up there.
[14:24.620 --> 14:40.740]  The complaints allege that social media companies violated the First Amendment by suspending Trump and other users from their networks, an argument that, um, courts have, uh, uh, typically disregarded, um, ruling overwhelmingly at the First Amendment is intended to limit censorship by the government,
[14:40.940 --> 14:41.960]  not private companies.
[14:42.200 --> 14:47.100]  Uh, his effort is backed by the American First Policy Institute.
[14:47.540 --> 14:49.600]  Uh, you might never have heard of them.
[14:49.740 --> 14:53.880]  They're an advocacy, advocacy group founded by former Trump officials.
[14:53.880 --> 14:59.100]  And there are a lot of them, um, including, uh, Linda McMahon and, and, and Brooke Rollins.
[14:59.100 --> 15:08.380]  Um, they, uh, seek damages on behalf of any users who have had an account wrongly restricted or curtailed on Facebook, Twitter, or a Google service.
[15:08.540 --> 15:13.300]  It asked courts to declare Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act unconstitutional.
[15:13.560 --> 15:26.100]  Uh, Trump paradoxically, uh, cited Section 230 as a legal jurisdiction for suing the companies in his press conference, however, saying incorrectly that once they got Section 230, they're not private companies.
[15:28.120 --> 15:31.160]  Yeah, okay, so that makes almost no sense whatsoever.
[15:31.380 --> 15:33.440]  Alex, can you tell us how much sense it doesn't make?
[15:35.140 --> 15:37.000]  Well, well, sure.
[15:37.280 --> 15:45.660]  I mean, look, this is a, certainly a, a crazy lawsuit, but, you know, and everyone likes to poke fun at this.
[15:45.760 --> 15:52.460]  I think that, you know, there may be some other things going on here, like in, in most of Trump's PR actions.
[15:52.460 --> 16:04.620]  You know, one thing you, you also forgot to, uh, uh, mention, or maybe just omitted from that article, Emanuel, is that Trump is also seeking something known as affirmative injunction, uh, injunctive relief here.
[16:04.860 --> 16:08.560]  And affirmative relief means that you're compelling somebody to do something.
[16:08.700 --> 16:12.880]  Usually an injunction enjoins you or prevents you from doing some kind of further harm.
[16:12.880 --> 16:17.760]  But here he's seeking the restoration of all of his social media accounts.
[16:17.960 --> 16:27.280]  Now, on the face of it, look, I entirely agree with you and the pundits that, you know, the First Amendment, the first word of it is Congress.
[16:27.300 --> 16:29.680]  So it applies to the government.
[16:29.680 --> 16:38.180]  And it was designed to apply specifically to the federal government until the process of incorporation made the First Amendment applicable to the state.
[16:38.180 --> 16:43.340]  So, it's about Congress and the government and governmental actions, not necessarily state actors.
[16:43.580 --> 16:54.840]  But, while everyone's poking fun at this, uh, and it, and this lawsuit likely has no legs, tactically, I think it could accomplish a lot, you know, albeit through an abusive process.
[16:55.160 --> 16:56.240]  I mean, think about this.
[16:56.360 --> 17:02.300]  First of all, uh, the media has flocked to Trump for this announcement.
[17:02.300 --> 17:04.100]  He's back on the front pages.
[17:04.100 --> 17:07.800]  He's the leading story now on all of the mainstream media networks.
[17:07.900 --> 17:09.140]  My God, we're talking about him.
[17:09.220 --> 17:09.580]  You're right.
[17:10.080 --> 17:10.800]  Exactly, yep.
[17:11.120 --> 17:18.340]  It's important for him because he's been significantly muzzled since he inspired an insurrection on January 6th.
[17:18.460 --> 17:25.620]  But, now fundraising is in full swing for AFP, the America First Policy Institute, the Constitutional Litigation Partnership.
[17:25.880 --> 17:27.740]  Who knows what the hell is going to be done with that money?
[17:27.740 --> 17:36.680]  Secondly, secondarily, seeking injunctive relief, and this is why I mentioned it, is really important, uh, because that gets him into court very quickly.
[17:37.040 --> 17:47.220]  Injunctive relief means that, you know, the court, when you're seeking that, the court's probably going to put you on some kind of expedited briefing schedule where oral argument is going to be heard rather quickly.
[17:47.580 --> 17:53.960]  So, this, again, allows him to garner more media coverage, whip up support, and most importantly, fundraise.
[17:53.960 --> 18:08.420]  And then, thirdly, here, while everyone's laughing at Trump for making an argument that Facebook is a state actor, when it's clearly a private company, well, I do have to say things may not actually be that simple.
[18:08.800 --> 18:29.640]  And last month, I'm sorry, in May, actually, I actually wrote an FT, a Financial Times opinion piece about this, because this past April, in a case that was entitled Knight Institute versus Trump, the Supreme Court dismissed an earlier ruling by a lower federal court,
[18:29.780 --> 18:35.980]  the Second Circuit, that Trump had violated the First Amendment rights of people that he blocked on Twitter.
[18:36.260 --> 18:41.020]  Now, the Supremes dismissed this particular case as moved because Trump was no longer president.
[18:41.240 --> 18:42.680]  Biden was president at the time.
[18:43.040 --> 19:04.120]  But at the time that this decision was handed down from the Supreme Court, Justice Thomas took this weird opportunity to make the point that these are, these digital platforms, social media companies, you know, and Twitter in particular, digital platforms provide avenues for historically unprecedented amounts of speech.
[19:04.280 --> 19:05.860]  Those are Justice Thomas' words.
[19:05.940 --> 19:12.060]  And he suggested that these platforms should be viewed as common carriers, like telephone companies.
[19:12.140 --> 19:16.720]  Remember, we talked about this a few weeks ago, and subject, therefore, to similar regulation.
[19:16.960 --> 19:20.280]  And then there's this other case, Packingham v.
[19:20.380 --> 19:31.820]  North Carolina, in which Justice Anthony Kennedy described social media as the, modern public square, and as one of the most important places for the exchange of views.
[19:31.960 --> 19:37.700]  And that's a case that the plaintiffs who won the case against Trump and Knight Institute v.
[19:37.840 --> 19:47.720]  Trump relied on to to establish that precedent, that the president could not block people from viewing his Twitter account because it was being used for official business.
[19:47.900 --> 19:49.680]  So there is this push and pull.
[19:49.820 --> 19:57.920]  On the one hand, in certain circumstances, social media is a public square when politicians are using it for official business.
[19:58.000 --> 20:00.360]  And on the other hand, it's owned by a private party.
[20:00.920 --> 20:12.560]  So Justice Thomas raised yet another hand to suggest that this strange hydra of state and private interests suggests that social media companies should be regulated like telephone companies as common carriers.
[20:12.840 --> 20:23.480]  And because we believe in something called due process, which affords every party an opportunity to be heard, Trump's going to be able to make these arguments about regulation of social media companies.
[20:23.640 --> 20:32.420]  He's going to be able to gain more support for social media platform regulation, more support for the overturning or the amendment of Section 230.
[20:32.580 --> 20:37.240]  And most importantly, to fundraise through these these new political action committees.
[20:37.760 --> 20:41.120]  So I think there's a lot more going on below the surface.
[20:41.300 --> 20:44.320]  It's easy to laugh at the complaint and say, this is idiotic.
[20:44.400 --> 20:47.940]  But I think tactically, it might have been a smart move.
[20:47.940 --> 20:51.280]  Well, I mean, yeah, it gets people talking about it.
[20:51.360 --> 20:58.200]  But legally, I'm not sure it's going to advance in any way, despite what Clarence Thomas says.
[20:58.460 --> 21:02.860]  I mean, you know, you can you can say that Twitter is the equivalent of a common carrier.
[21:03.140 --> 21:11.960]  But the fact is, you know, you need a phone connection, you have to have a telephone, you know, the and you can choose a company.
[21:12.160 --> 21:25.700]  But once you choose a company, they are providing you with that service, being able to tweet, that's, you know, at what point do we say, this isn't an essential service, this is something that you choose to have for your entertainment?
[21:26.140 --> 21:28.840]  I mean, is HBO going to be considered a common carrier?
[21:29.140 --> 21:35.440]  I have to have, you know, a particular episode of a show every week, or I'll go nuts.
[21:36.680 --> 21:46.940]  It just it seems nonsensical when when you when you put it in context with those vital services that we are told we are have a right to, and cannot be cut off from.
[21:48.100 --> 21:54.080]  I mean, it sounds like either way, it would require congressional action to actually designate it as a common carrier, right?
[21:54.220 --> 22:03.340]  So I think, I think the point Alex is making is that it might spur Congress into action if Congress was weighted in the direction that would allow that to happen, right?
[22:03.480 --> 22:07.940]  So the lawsuit itself maybe doesn't have any merit as the law stands now.
[22:08.700 --> 22:17.860]  But putting that complaint in the public sphere, puts the idea in the head of people that have, well, maybe it should be a common carrier, maybe it should be regulated that way.
[22:17.920 --> 22:18.800]  Let's say that happens.
[22:19.040 --> 22:21.660]  And let's say it becomes a common carrier somehow.
[22:22.600 --> 22:25.020]  It's different because this is global.
[22:25.440 --> 22:30.340]  Okay, so a company in a different country doesn't have to abide by those rules.
[22:30.540 --> 22:31.680]  So how would that even work?
[22:33.140 --> 22:35.120]  Yeah, that's exactly right.
[22:35.240 --> 22:40.400]  I mean, and that's a problem for the social media companies, not necessarily the federal government, though.
[22:40.860 --> 22:49.700]  You know, international compliance is very expensive, very burdensome, very lucrative business for a lot of private parties when it comes to social media platforms.
[22:50.000 --> 22:58.760]  But hell, you know, Congress, you know, this is, it's not a Congress's problem to figure out Facebook and Google and Twitter's compliance issues.
[22:58.960 --> 23:01.960]  So I don't think they'll give much thought to that.
[23:02.160 --> 23:03.800]  They'll probably think about it somewhat.
[23:04.240 --> 23:10.020]  But I, you know, look, those are exactly the points that I was making that this may spur Congress into action.
[23:10.200 --> 23:18.580]  It's also something that if this case lingers, and I don't think it does, I think it'll get to oral argument, perhaps on injunctive relief, that would probably fail.
[23:19.060 --> 23:27.220]  I anticipate then there being a motion to dismiss this particular action, that will have probably an extended briefing schedule.
[23:27.500 --> 23:31.940]  And then this case will probably be gone from the docket in maybe four or five months.
[23:31.940 --> 23:33.040]  That's my guess.
[23:33.620 --> 23:46.880]  If it sticks around longer than that, then, yeah, look, then this can be a feather in Trump's cap in terms of fundraising for the reclaiming of Congress in the 2022 election.
[23:46.880 --> 23:48.320]  He's always going to be able to fundraise.
[23:48.440 --> 23:50.520]  No matter what he does, he'll always be able to do that.
[23:50.680 --> 23:57.700]  So I don't think the fact that he's able to raise money off of nonsense is something that we should judge ourselves harshly about for calling it nonsense.
[23:58.400 --> 23:59.740]  He's always going to have that ability.
[23:59.880 --> 24:01.360]  That is what he is good at.
[24:01.640 --> 24:10.240]  But I'd like to focus on another law in Florida called SB 7072.
[24:10.360 --> 24:20.880]  It's a controversial and sweeping regulation of social media platforms currently on hold thanks to Judge Robert Hinkle issued a preliminary injunction blocking nearly all of it.
[24:21.040 --> 24:27.380]  The legislation now at issue was an effort to rein in social media providers deemed too large and too liberal.
[24:28.040 --> 24:36.040]  Balancing the exchange of ideas among private speakers is not a legitimate governmental interest, Hinkle wrote in his order.
[24:36.160 --> 24:46.320]  Moreover, the law discriminates on his face among otherwise identical speakers, partly thanks to an eyebrow-raising exemption, get this, for companies that operate a theme park.
[24:46.660 --> 24:48.320]  You can't make this up.
[24:49.160 --> 24:49.880]  Yes.
[24:50.080 --> 24:59.220]  The legislation compels providers to host speech that violates their standards and forbids providers from speaking as they otherwise would.
[24:59.760 --> 25:03.000]  SB 7072 was signed by Governor Ron DeSantis.
[25:03.000 --> 25:04.620]  That should have been a warning sign right there.
[25:05.160 --> 25:08.840]  Back in May, it limits when web services can kick off users.
[25:08.840 --> 25:22.580]  It includes a ban on suspending or annotating the post of political candidates, a requirement that users can opt out of algorithmic sorting systems, and an antitrust violator blacklist for companies that break the rules.
[25:22.860 --> 25:32.720]  And as mentioned, the rules don't apply to a company that owns and operates a theme park or entertainment complex, which apparently was to placate a company like Disney.
[25:32.720 --> 25:32.740]  Disney.
[25:33.600 --> 25:39.320]  So this judge, quite rightfully in my eyes, has put this on hold.
[25:39.320 --> 25:41.020]  It seemed really silly to start with.
[25:41.180 --> 25:42.240]  Alex, were you familiar with this?
[25:45.810 --> 25:46.290]  Yes.
[25:46.610 --> 25:54.330]  I was familiar with that law and the crazy carve-out specifically for Disney in the Florida law.
[25:54.470 --> 26:09.650]  And again, I think this is something that... If they weren't designing it to be unconstitutional, I would have, you know, a lot of questions about the mind and the mental capacity of a lot of the folks behind this particular bill.
[26:09.770 --> 26:11.310]  But again, you know, look, it's Florida.
[26:11.630 --> 26:14.630]  So sometimes, you know, you can't spell Florida without duh.
[26:15.370 --> 26:18.370]  And this thing was rightly struck down.
[26:18.470 --> 26:19.990]  Wait, but duh is spelled D-U-H.
[26:21.610 --> 26:22.050]  Well...
[26:22.050 --> 26:23.010]  Where you went to school.
[26:24.190 --> 26:24.670]  Yeah.
[26:24.670 --> 26:27.230]  Well, maybe it should be changed to Florida.
[26:27.450 --> 26:27.690]  Duh.
[26:27.950 --> 26:28.850]  Actually, literally.
[26:30.050 --> 26:34.270]  But I think this law seems to have been designed to fail.
[26:34.430 --> 26:40.970]  The judge came to the right conclusion that these are editorial judgments, that these editorial judgments are protected by the First Amendment.
[26:41.530 --> 26:43.830]  And you can't regulate them in this particular way.
[26:44.010 --> 26:49.470]  But again, you know, I think it also illustrates that there's a big push and pull when it comes to the law.
[26:49.990 --> 26:59.730]  And I keep going back to this fact that we have treated Trump's social media account when it suited us, as liberals, as a public square.
[27:00.610 --> 27:01.750]  That's troubling.
[27:02.250 --> 27:05.550]  You know, and that gives... now, look, the law goes both ways here.
[27:05.810 --> 27:12.070]  Because now conservatives can hang their hat on the fact that we did, in fact, treat Trump's Twitter account as a public square.
[27:12.130 --> 27:12.850]  Hang on a second.
[27:12.850 --> 27:14.270]  What choice did we have?
[27:14.430 --> 27:19.350]  He was using it as a mouthpiece to, you know, say all his nonsense.
[27:19.590 --> 27:21.110]  Were we supposed to ignore it?
[27:22.450 --> 27:24.110]  Well, we could have.
[27:24.350 --> 27:25.870]  I don't think we could have.
[27:26.050 --> 27:27.210]  I don't see how that's possible.
[27:27.670 --> 27:34.290]  The issue in the case was about whether or not Trump was blocking people legally or illegally.
[27:34.610 --> 27:46.950]  And the court came to the conclusion that because this social media account, you know, was real Donald Trump on Twitter, was being used for official business, it then became part of a public square.
[27:47.150 --> 27:50.030]  There was an exchange of ideas, a robust exchange of ideas.
[27:50.170 --> 27:57.410]  And even in the comment section, which everyone knows is utterly false if you've read some of the comments on Trump's tweets.
[27:57.750 --> 28:15.790]  But if it was being treated as a public square, then we did, in fact, regulate it in a certain way that would require some kind of editorial judgment on behalf of the government to be curtailed.
[28:15.910 --> 28:18.870]  And now they're using that as precedent.
[28:19.130 --> 28:30.670]  The thing is, I see it as not so much Twitter being the public square, but the Trump account being the public square, because he's the president or was the president of the United States speaking to all these people.
[28:30.890 --> 28:40.430]  And to forbid somebody from seeing that, that is the problem right there, that the president of the United States is barring select people from hearing his words.
[28:41.290 --> 28:42.530]  That's absolutely correct.
[28:42.690 --> 28:43.710]  That's absolutely correct.
[28:43.710 --> 28:44.690]  And you're right about that.
[28:44.810 --> 28:46.090]  It's not the entire platform.
[28:46.250 --> 28:58.470]  But even if one small portion of that platform is being treated for all intents and purposes as some form of government property, that can lead to a lot of other forms of regulation and balancing.
[28:58.750 --> 28:59.810]  Yeah, I didn't see it that way.
[28:59.810 --> 29:01.090]  I didn't see it as government property.
[29:01.210 --> 29:04.350]  I saw it as a forum that he happened to be using.
[29:04.930 --> 29:10.730]  It's like he's on NBC, and somehow he's able to block you from watching NBC.
[29:11.850 --> 29:14.070]  It's not NBC's issue.
[29:14.170 --> 29:14.870]  It's his issue.
[29:15.050 --> 29:15.590]  You see what I mean?
[29:15.970 --> 29:18.570]  Yeah, I agree with that entirely.
[29:18.570 --> 29:23.810]  But if it's being treated as a public square, it means that the government has some kind of interest in what goes on there.
[29:24.450 --> 29:28.250]  And they exercise that interest in this Knight First Amendment Institute v.
[29:28.370 --> 29:28.870]  Trump case.
[29:29.030 --> 29:30.810]  And Trump lost.
[29:31.310 --> 29:34.570]  And I think it look, it was a great precedent at the time.
[29:34.870 --> 29:38.570]  But now, I think it can lead to a lot more ramifications.
[29:38.990 --> 29:39.490]  Go ahead, Redhack.
[29:40.670 --> 29:42.110]  Yeah, I had a question, though.
[29:42.330 --> 29:49.190]  Because, you know, we're mentioning, we're sort of saying, well, you know, the, that his account specifically was the public square, right?
[29:49.330 --> 29:50.630]  Or was not being restricted.
[29:50.870 --> 29:57.190]  So shouldn't it be in the rights of these private companies to decide who is allowed?
[29:57.370 --> 29:58.610]  I mean, it's a little different, right?
[29:58.690 --> 30:03.150]  It's saying, you cannot have this platform, therefore, there is no longer a public square.
[30:03.450 --> 30:04.350]  We're removing that.
[30:04.490 --> 30:12.830]  It's like, if I owned a park, and I forbid the president from coming to speak in my park, right, that's my right as a property owner.
[30:13.030 --> 30:28.410]  So, I mean, if you treat the platforms as, okay, this is their environment, their platform, that they can decide who is and who is not on it, then, you know, that decision isn't, it's basically saying, I mean, I guess one can make the argument then, well,
[30:28.450 --> 30:30.870]  maybe all politicians shouldn't be allowed on there, right?
[30:31.350 --> 30:38.510]  But, but it's just, to me, it's interesting, because it's sort of like, well, okay, I didn't let him, you know, make his speech in my private property.
[30:40.070 --> 30:41.890]  Well, that's, that's a lot of it, right?
[30:41.990 --> 30:52.010]  I mean, and that's, I think, the overriding principle behind a lot of the mockery of this particular lawsuit of Trump is that, look, this is a private entity, it's a private company.
[30:52.510 --> 30:55.490]  They can exercise editorial judgment as they see fit.
[30:55.610 --> 30:59.990]  They can ban people when they want to ban them, especially if they violate their terms of service.
[31:00.150 --> 31:09.970]  And Facebook even has this independent judicial oversight board now that came to this independent conclusion, so it distances itself somewhat from the actual decision-making process.
[31:10.250 --> 31:29.810]  But on the other hand, you know, when we do treat even some portion of these social media platforms as public squares, that is indicating that even though it's a private company and a private entity, the ability to do what, whatever one wants on that particular platform is not absolute.
[31:30.110 --> 31:38.150]  So the users don't have ultimate power over who they block and who they can see, especially if there's some kind of government business going on.
[31:38.230 --> 31:40.630]  I mean, I totally agree with you, RedHack.
[31:40.750 --> 31:46.230]  I think the world would be a much better and frankly, safer place if we didn't have any politicians on Twitter.
[31:46.450 --> 31:50.010]  I think these social media platforms are totally unfit for purpose.
[31:50.150 --> 31:59.230]  They shouldn't be used for international diplomacy or repartees with, you know, dictators of aspiring nuclear powers like North Korea.
[31:59.430 --> 32:00.170]  It's totally crazy.
[32:00.330 --> 32:07.610]  The fact that we have something that I looked at in 2007 as a silly distraction now being used for international diplomacy.
[32:07.770 --> 32:09.110]  So I would support that effort.
[32:09.390 --> 32:11.210]  Yeah, but the thing is, you can't blame Twitter for that.
[32:11.350 --> 32:13.650]  Blame the people using it in a bad way.
[32:13.850 --> 32:16.150]  You know, you should not use it for international diplomacy.
[32:16.250 --> 32:18.110]  I totally agree with that, but that's on the user.
[32:18.390 --> 32:23.150]  And I think rules are different for public figures than they are for individual citizens.
[32:23.150 --> 32:31.430]  So a public figure, you can say, no, you can't block your own constituents from hearing what you have to say in this particular platform.
[32:31.670 --> 32:35.730]  But, you know, Joe Schmo can block whoever he wants because he's a private citizen.
[32:35.730 --> 32:37.910]  And that's part of the agreement.
[32:39.030 --> 32:42.410]  There are plenty of official government channels, though, for communication, right?
[32:42.650 --> 32:42.650]  Absolutely.
[32:42.990 --> 32:47.270]  Traditionally, until whatever, however many, five, ten years ago, that was it, right?
[32:47.470 --> 32:52.830]  You know, that was how governments communicated to each other, how politicians communicated to each other instead of exchanging jabs on Twitter.
[32:52.970 --> 32:53.830]  Yeah, and they still can.
[32:53.990 --> 32:54.770]  They still can.
[32:54.850 --> 32:55.490]  They still can.
[32:55.690 --> 33:06.810]  But I guess then the question is, maybe, should they be allowed to use these non-government platforms to have government speech?
[33:07.010 --> 33:09.650]  I mean, maybe as a candidate, fine, they're a private citizen.
[33:09.770 --> 33:10.950]  They can have a Twitter account.
[33:10.950 --> 33:16.970]  But once they're president or congressperson, then they should not have that anymore.
[33:16.970 --> 33:21.290]  Well, you know, I don't see it as a problem unless they abuse it, you know?
[33:21.430 --> 33:25.010]  And when they abuse it, yeah, then you got to step in and say, no, you can't do that.
[33:25.130 --> 33:29.650]  But, you know, for instance, Joe Biden, has he done anything on Twitter that's really bothered us?
[33:30.010 --> 33:31.570]  You know, most people don't.
[33:31.930 --> 33:33.370]  This is all subjective, right?
[33:33.390 --> 33:34.550]  Everyone sees it differently.
[33:34.750 --> 33:39.250]  I'm sure that there's somebody who's looking at Joe Biden's Twitter account and, you know, cursing under their breath.
[33:39.330 --> 33:39.650]  Oh, okay.
[33:39.690 --> 33:40.210]  I'd like to hear.
[33:40.450 --> 33:41.410]  OTH at 20s.com.
[33:41.590 --> 33:44.650]  Let us know what Joe Biden did on Twitter that got under your skin.
[33:44.830 --> 33:45.410]  Rob, go ahead.
[33:46.970 --> 33:52.730]  Any potential regulation of social media in general is going to come up against the problem of scale.
[33:53.570 --> 34:02.310]  Because the issue is, when it comes down to it, a company owns a website, they should be allowed to decide who is and isn't allowed to write on that website or what they're allowed to write.
[34:02.790 --> 34:07.150]  You know, I have a tiny blog that nobody reads and that I don't even write on.
[34:07.290 --> 34:12.170]  But, like, there's a functionality there for people to sign in and leave little comments if they want.
[34:12.650 --> 34:20.590]  And, you know, I, as the admin of this thing, get to decide whether I want to keep those comments or filter them away or ban people from commenting.
[34:21.270 --> 34:23.250]  And, you know, where, where's that line?
[34:23.390 --> 34:34.430]  Like, if, if, if Twitter has to let everybody use it that wants to, to say what they want to, then, you know, do I have to keep comments on my own web space that I, you know, host independently?
[34:35.150 --> 34:37.370]  Do I, do I have to let people write what they want on there?
[34:37.450 --> 34:38.010]  And that's ridiculous.
[34:38.410 --> 34:45.610]  And when the party of, like, small government and don't regulate my private industry, how dare you, comes in and says, hey, private industry, you're not doing it the way we want.
[34:45.730 --> 34:47.290]  So, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna ban it all.
[34:47.450 --> 34:49.630]  Like, that, that's, uh, that's a bit crazy.
[34:49.790 --> 34:50.350]  Go ahead, Alex.
[34:50.470 --> 34:51.610]  I want to move on to something else.
[34:51.790 --> 34:52.270]  Yeah, sure.
[34:52.450 --> 35:03.930]  I, I, I don't entirely agree with, uh, the notion, though, that users are the ones who should be held responsible for using these particular platforms in a manner which is unfit.
[35:04.230 --> 35:11.390]  Uh, because I think that the social media entities themselves have really encouraged this kind of back and forth and this kind of participation.
[35:11.630 --> 35:22.650]  I mean, think about how much more participation, how many more eyeballs did Twitter get on its platform during the years 2016 to, through the early stages of 2021.
[35:22.970 --> 35:25.410]  I mean, it was a massive amount of growth.
[35:25.590 --> 35:26.770]  It's also great for Facebook.
[35:26.990 --> 35:31.070]  It's great for anywhere there is a clash of these types of ideas.
[35:31.330 --> 35:39.510]  And I'm all for clashes of ideas, but, uh, the dialogue is wholly unproductive, especially when it is a dialogue between nations.
[35:39.510 --> 35:41.030]  It all seems really silly.
[35:41.210 --> 35:49.150]  Um, and I hope that we look back on this 10, 15 years from now and say to ourselves, what the hell were we thinking and letting this happen?
[35:49.470 --> 35:52.330]  Things could spiral out of control so quickly.
[35:52.910 --> 35:57.970]  You know, there are nuclear powers discussing international diplomacy efforts with each other.
[35:58.110 --> 36:02.710]  And then the comment section to that is, is almost insufferable when you try to read it.
[36:02.810 --> 36:04.450]  It's, it's a crazy system.
[36:04.610 --> 36:06.210]  It's a crazy, uh, situation.
[36:06.650 --> 36:11.610]  And I think, uh, you know, it could be the end of the world if we don't reign this in.
[36:11.730 --> 36:14.490]  I mean, you're, you're reading some very interesting Twitter accounts.
[36:14.610 --> 36:16.990]  You got to share those with me because I want to know just what you're seeing.
[36:17.210 --> 36:18.130]  Red Hack, last word on this.
[36:18.550 --> 36:18.910]  Yeah.
[36:18.990 --> 36:20.030]  I just want to say one more thing.
[36:20.150 --> 36:32.870]  I think that when it comes down to regulation and I think ultimately that's what we're talking about here, whether or not Twitter should be regulated, but if it's going to be regulated, then, you know, generally what tends to happen is you have an all or nothing thing.
[36:33.090 --> 36:37.090]  So rather than saying this politician shouldn't be allowed, should be allowed to be banned this book.
[36:37.250 --> 36:38.670]  It should be all or nothing.
[36:38.830 --> 36:43.990]  Either you have no political speech on the platform and that's the regulation or, or you allow it all.
[36:44.150 --> 36:50.410]  And that that's because as soon as you start to pick and choose, uh, then people claim unfairness, bias, et cetera.
[36:50.630 --> 36:51.910]  And, and it'll never resolve.
[36:52.070 --> 36:55.170]  Uh, you, you, you know, you, we see this with, with religious displays, right?
[36:55.270 --> 36:56.310]  In public places, same thing.
[36:56.470 --> 36:58.570]  Either you have them all or you have nothing, right?
[36:58.630 --> 37:01.010]  You can't have, have, uh, uh, just some.
[37:01.290 --> 37:11.350]  And so, uh, I would hope that if it does get to that point, uh, that we just kick all the politicians off of Twitter because really, well, you can, uh, you can share your opinion with us.
[37:11.510 --> 37:17.470]  O th at 2600.com or join us on overtime at eight o'clock where you can call us.
[37:17.750 --> 37:23.870]  Uh, we'll give you the number if you join us at eight o'clock and, and, and you can call us then and, and, and actually talk to us.
[37:24.330 --> 37:32.830]  Um, there are no, um, uh, no shortages of, uh, social media platforms, including pro Trump social media platforms.
[37:32.950 --> 37:35.970]  In fact, there's another one that launched just last week.
[37:36.270 --> 37:38.990]  Um, this one maybe can help me pronounce this.
[37:39.090 --> 37:40.830]  It's, it's spelled G-E-T-T-R.
[37:40.930 --> 37:41.690]  How do you pronounce that?
[37:41.850 --> 37:42.270]  Getter?
[37:42.770 --> 37:44.310]  Uh, no.
[37:45.570 --> 37:46.010]  Getter.
[37:46.010 --> 37:47.050]  Like Gator Dunn.
[37:47.250 --> 37:49.310]  Yeah, getter's not, yeah, but that's not a word.
[37:49.670 --> 37:51.490]  That's not, you know, what's a word gutter?
[37:51.690 --> 37:52.430]  I'm going to say that.
[37:52.590 --> 37:53.490]  I'm going to call it gutter.
[37:54.110 --> 37:54.850]  Yeah, gutter.
[37:54.950 --> 38:00.670]  The new pro Trump social media platform got off to a rough start this weekend after a number.
[38:00.870 --> 38:05.610]  Has there ever been one of these media platforms that have not gone off to a rough start?
[38:05.850 --> 38:11.370]  Um, a number of prominent GOP figures had their profiles hacked on the 4th of July.
[38:11.750 --> 38:19.470]  Uh, several big name Republicans were hit on Sunday, including the accounts for Steve Bannon, Mike Pompeo, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Jason Miller.
[38:20.210 --> 38:28.050]  Um, yeah, uh, the hack profiles were all changed to include the message, uh, Juba Baghdad was here with a smiley face.
[38:28.130 --> 38:30.750]  Some of the accounts also included the phrase free Palestine.
[38:30.970 --> 38:33.550]  The accounts were hacked around 8 30 a.m.
[38:33.730 --> 38:35.330]  ET on Sunday.
[38:35.650 --> 38:39.930]  That's according to Insider, uh, before being restored about 10 a.m.
[38:40.270 --> 38:40.490]  ET.
[38:41.390 --> 38:49.970]  Um, yeah, so, um, uh, they actually were able to reach this, uh, so-called hacker, uh, known as Juba Baghdad on Twitter.
[38:50.590 --> 38:55.550]  Uh, yeah, the, the, the chosen method of, of talking to people have hacked other social media accounts.
[38:55.730 --> 39:01.950]  Uh, they said via direct message, they targeted, uh, gutter just for fun because it was easy to do.
[39:02.150 --> 39:07.750]  They should not publish the website before making sure everything, or at least almost everything, is secure.
[39:08.530 --> 39:10.050]  Who, who can argue with that?
[39:10.690 --> 39:25.490]  Um, the, um, the, one of the, um, founders of, um, of the, uh, so, actually the founder of the social media, um, network, known as Jason Miller, um, said, you know, you're shaking things up when they come after you.
[39:25.850 --> 39:32.970]  Yeah, the problem was detected and sealed in a matter of minutes, and all the intruder was able to accomplish was change a few usernames.
[39:33.210 --> 39:39.870]  The situation has been rectified, and we've already had more than half a million users sign up for our exciting new platform.
[39:40.410 --> 39:54.690]  Uh, Miller launched, uh, the, um, the new social media network last week as a digital safe haven for conservatives and Trump supporters, uh, gutters arrival after Trump decided to recently launch and then fold his new blog.
[39:54.890 --> 40:01.770]  Uh, Trump's brief blogging career came after he was kicked off Twitter and Facebook earlier this year, following the January 6th Capitol riot.
[40:01.950 --> 40:07.530]  Uh, as we know, Trump is permanently banned from Twitter, while Facebook recently said his account could be reinstated in early 2023.
[40:08.110 --> 40:13.630]  Uh, according to the app's site, gutters mission is fighting cancel culture.
[40:13.630 --> 40:14.410]  Oh, please.
[40:15.270 --> 40:24.130]  Uh, promoting common sense, defending free speech, challenging social media monopolies, and creating a true marketplace of ideas.
[40:25.710 --> 40:29.750]  Any thoughts on this, uh, turn of events?
[40:30.450 --> 40:31.030]  Uh, Gila, go ahead.
[40:31.410 --> 40:46.270]  So, yesterday, um, I was here, obviously, since this took place over the weekend, people were talking about it again yesterday because Monday, legal holiday, and, um, I was sitting here and I was flipping through my Twitter and I found a post from, uh,
[40:46.730 --> 40:49.210]  Patriot takes whom we appreciate.
[40:49.370 --> 40:59.450]  Thank you, Patriot takes for everything you do posted a statement from Jason Miller yesterday saying, you're making it sound like there was another hack and it was really only just the one.
[40:59.590 --> 41:01.150]  And I don't know what everybody's so upset about.
[41:02.110 --> 41:10.490]  Um, I'm sorry, if I could read the statement, um, I don't want to give him too much of our time, but getter does not request personal identifying information for new users.
[41:10.790 --> 41:15.550]  And unlike other social media platforms, we are not interested in selling any data about our users.
[41:15.850 --> 41:23.190]  This is a key distinction between getter and the social media oligarchs that base their business models on collecting and selling your information to others for lucrative sums.
[41:23.890 --> 41:26.830]  Additionally, Tuesday's reports make it sound as though there was a new intrusion.
[41:27.230 --> 41:28.130]  That is inaccurate.
[41:28.670 --> 41:31.610]  The brief intrusion that happened Sunday morning was quickly rectified.
[41:31.810 --> 41:41.670]  While the problem has already been addressed, getter takes cybersecurity seriously and has undertaken another round of security testing by a white hat security firm to ensure safety.
[41:41.850 --> 41:42.110]  Hmm.
[41:42.310 --> 41:46.770]  We remain confident that our technology is sound and superior.
[41:46.770 --> 41:53.450]  So I'm curious if anybody heard the laughing coming from Queens when we read that statement.
[41:54.210 --> 42:01.270]  Uh, I'm sure, I'm sure there's a lot of loud laughter in many boroughs and, and, and states, uh, throughout the, uh, the nation.
[42:01.750 --> 42:19.870]  Um, but yeah, you know, this seems to be a common theme where, uh, these, these networks are launched and it's like they didn't check so many things and all this information is just out there and, and is able to be accessed and then they figure it out or at least figure out a little bit of it.
[42:20.590 --> 42:22.530]  Um, I, you know, I've, I've never checked this site.
[42:22.710 --> 42:23.750]  I don't know anything about it really.
[42:23.910 --> 42:34.990]  Um, but, um, I, I imagine that if you went on there with liberal ideas, you would find yourself, um, at the, um, at the end of their cancel culture, uh, pretty quickly.
[42:35.210 --> 42:36.010]  Go ahead, Alex.
[42:37.310 --> 42:37.570]  Yeah.
[42:37.650 --> 42:45.710]  I mean, this obviously has a lot of, uh, reminiscence of the, of the parlor leaks as that was in its death throes and going down.
[42:46.090 --> 42:51.370]  Internet archivists were extracting the data and they did so through an API function.
[42:51.370 --> 43:01.490]  And my understanding with respect to the leak data about, I think it was 90,000 or so users from getter or gutter, uh, as we're saying it, I'm not sure.
[43:01.490 --> 43:02.130]  I don't know.
[43:02.210 --> 43:02.330]  Yeah.
[43:02.410 --> 43:03.050]  It's, it's crazy.
[43:03.210 --> 43:04.310]  It was very similar.
[43:04.470 --> 43:12.890]  It was some sort of, uh, negligent implementation of an API, which allowed people from the public to make calls and extract that particular data.
[43:13.150 --> 43:16.770]  The effect of which is analogous to a data breach.
[43:17.210 --> 43:22.610]  And I think that getter or whoever's behind it should be treating this particular leak of data.
[43:22.850 --> 43:32.090]  Uh, it undoubtedly includes email addresses and other types of data that would be subject to regulation under the GDPR.
[43:32.350 --> 43:34.270]  So they should be treating this as a data breach.
[43:34.370 --> 43:43.290]  And I think that, uh, other regulators, perhaps from the EU, or maybe even the FTC within our own government should be looking at it with that eye as well.
[43:43.650 --> 43:47.010]  What's amazing is, um, they were, they just launched.
[43:47.170 --> 43:51.990]  Well, it wasn't July 4th, their launch date and 830 in the morning, they were compromised.
[43:52.090 --> 43:54.630]  I mean, I think that's probably one of the quickest compromises in history.
[43:55.150 --> 43:57.830]  So what happens when you screw up, uh, an API?
[43:58.430 --> 43:59.010]  Go ahead, Rob.
[43:59.170 --> 43:59.310]  Yeah.
[43:59.390 --> 44:10.370]  I mean, I'm just thinking if, uh, if social networks do become, uh, common carriers and have to let anyone use them they want, like maybe this is where I need to go to start my next account to talk about how climate change is real, black lives matter,
[44:10.770 --> 44:12.690]  trans rights or human rights, uh, and so on.
[44:12.810 --> 44:14.170]  I'm sure, I'm sure they'll love to see me.
[44:14.550 --> 44:15.250]  Red Hackett, do you have something?
[44:16.090 --> 44:19.210]  No, I was just going to say, I mean, in terms of the compromise speed, right?
[44:19.310 --> 44:23.270]  If, if someone poked around in the code and found the right API endpoint, that's it, right?
[44:23.290 --> 44:30.150]  If it was poorly designed, uh, they just have to find, you know, where the, the, the site's code is, is doing the same thing.
[44:30.310 --> 44:33.550]  This is, and I'm sure it wasn't very well written.
[44:33.830 --> 44:33.990]  Yeah.
[44:33.990 --> 44:34.630]  Sounds like it anyway.
[44:34.910 --> 44:35.430]  It does.
[44:35.650 --> 44:36.830]  Um, all kinds of problems.
[44:37.030 --> 44:37.270]  Yeah.
[44:37.290 --> 44:40.830]  I like to, um, um, close out with something a little bit more, uh, positive.
[44:41.150 --> 44:47.470]  Uh, it seems that momentum is building in government to give consumers, uh, broader rights to repair products.
[44:47.650 --> 44:51.390]  They own everything from farm tractors to mobile phones.
[44:51.770 --> 45:08.990]  It's something we've been talking about on this show for many years, the right to repair, uh, in a, uh, recent press briefing, White House press secretary, uh, Jen Psaki said, uh, uh, Joe Biden will issue an executive order directing the U S department of agriculture to issue rules that among other things,
[45:09.230 --> 45:13.250]  give farmers the right to repair their own damn equipment, however they like.
[45:13.730 --> 45:16.650]  I add a little emphasis to that, but you know, that's what he meant.
[45:16.830 --> 45:20.090]  Uh, the order will reportedly cover more than tractors.
[45:20.250 --> 45:31.970]  Uh, according to a Bloomberg report, Biden will urge the federal trade commission to press computer and electronics manufacturers and defense contractors to offer additional leeway in how their devices are repaired.
[45:32.970 --> 45:33.990]  Sounds like we're winning.
[45:34.190 --> 45:38.610]  Sounds like we're actually getting through to the right people and things are changing.
[45:38.810 --> 45:40.050]  Am I too optimistic, Kyle?
[45:40.550 --> 45:41.050]  Definitely.
[45:41.370 --> 45:42.710]  Uh, this is the direction.
[45:42.710 --> 45:47.250]  Uh, I topic needs to be headed.
[45:48.430 --> 45:48.790]  Yeah.
[45:49.010 --> 45:50.290]  Guys, any, any, any thoughts?
[45:51.290 --> 45:56.370]  Uh, we're only, we're only 20 years into the smartphone era or so.
[45:56.530 --> 45:57.990]  So like, it's about time this happened.
[46:00.090 --> 46:00.450]  Yeah.
[46:00.810 --> 46:00.970]  Right.
[46:01.010 --> 46:01.250]  Go ahead.
[46:01.350 --> 46:04.550]  Well, I wonder, you know, you, you mentioned right to repair and immediately thought of Tiffany, right?
[46:04.630 --> 46:06.090]  She's been on the show a number of times.
[46:06.110 --> 46:06.310]  Yes.
[46:06.910 --> 46:09.010]  Um, talking about, about car repairs.
[46:09.250 --> 46:13.730]  My only concern is that, and, and, uh, you know, you asked me what I am working on earlier.
[46:13.930 --> 46:16.810]  Uh, I've gotten into the car space as, as part of my profession.
[46:16.930 --> 46:17.230]  Oh, good.
[46:17.330 --> 46:33.870]  And so, um, you know, cars these days are tremendously complicated and it's not as I know that when we were talking about it 15 years ago, uh, you know, we were talking about, you know, okay, well getting access to the, the, the computer inside the car and being able to reset things in that.
[46:34.010 --> 46:38.490]  And I just think that in some industries like that, it's gotten even, even more complex.
[46:38.490 --> 46:42.830]  And I would, I would actually be concerned about safety and things like that if somebody started tinkering.
[46:43.170 --> 46:44.550]  Should they have the right to do that?
[46:45.130 --> 46:45.610]  Probably.
[46:46.090 --> 46:48.990]  But, but these things have not gotten simpler.
[46:49.190 --> 47:02.650]  But the real issue is, um, uh, basically having, um, a monopoly on being able to even access the car in the first place so that you're forced to bring your car to the dealer for every little thing.
[47:02.890 --> 47:08.770]  Uh, and it's, it's made unnecessarily complex so that only they have the right codes to access something.
[47:08.950 --> 47:10.170]  I know, Kyle, you can talk about this.
[47:10.310 --> 47:10.330]  Yeah.
[47:10.430 --> 47:17.270]  I think the tinkering just ends up, uh, being a by-product of not having, um, suitable access in the first place.
[47:17.270 --> 47:19.950]  And that's where, yeah, there could be damage.
[47:20.110 --> 47:21.970]  And really it's at your risk, right?
[47:22.210 --> 47:28.310]  Um, if you mess with something that often voids warranty type stuff, et cetera, et cetera.
[47:28.470 --> 47:35.730]  I also would, um, want to know more about vehicles in, in, up until now, right?
[47:35.850 --> 47:36.030]  Okay.
[47:36.030 --> 47:37.690]  So it didn't all happen at once.
[47:37.830 --> 47:44.350]  And there are plenty of examples of cars that are somewhat simpler that, um, there's just really no legitimate access.
[47:44.510 --> 48:01.030]  We've had stories, uh, personally, and I know a lot of people have tried to do things themselves and some of that has evolved over time, but, um, it, it's specific in, and, and what type of vehicle and what kind of systems you're talking about.
[48:01.390 --> 48:12.470]  And, um, yeah, for like braking systems and stuff like that, you definitely want someone who is, um, using the right kind of diagnostic tools and calibration stuff.
[48:13.010 --> 48:22.630]  And, um, if that's not available to like a third party shop, you're eliminating the ability of, uh, mechanics to compete with the dealer.
[48:22.750 --> 48:25.490]  And that's that monopoly, I think, think that he was talking about.
[48:25.630 --> 48:25.750]  Yeah.
[48:25.890 --> 48:29.510]  And it extends to other things too, not just cars, computers, phones, things like that.
[48:29.670 --> 48:40.570]  Things where your safety isn't quite as paramount, but it's certainly open for abuse by the, the people who control the technology and you have to go through them and you have to spend a certain amount of money.
[48:41.030 --> 48:44.970]  Uh, and, and, and you wind up not knowing a lot about how it actually works.
[48:45.190 --> 48:47.650]  Red, I can give you the last word because we, we, we, we got to get out of here.
[48:47.910 --> 48:48.150]  All right.
[48:48.210 --> 48:48.330]  Yeah.
[48:48.410 --> 48:49.610]  I was going to put it another way.
[48:49.770 --> 48:54.210]  I think that I, again, I agree with the idea of being able to repair your own devices.
[48:54.430 --> 49:05.370]  I think we're going to get to the point though, with certain types of devices, uh, where there becomes this, uh, a trade-off because you've got, for example, a modern car or modern cars are going to have networks in them.
[49:05.510 --> 49:10.470]  And those networks are going to have things that speak to each other and identify each other and use cryptography and all of that stuff.
[49:10.610 --> 49:20.650]  And so you start to run into this world where, yes, maybe you want to be able to repair it, but then you have to break the security mechanisms that are in place that are, you know, intended to protect it from bad actors, things like that.
[49:20.770 --> 49:27.410]  So again, I think that certainly since I've been on the air, things have gotten far more complex in that space.
[49:28.130 --> 49:30.610]  And, and so, yeah, that's, that's my...
[49:30.610 --> 49:43.650]  We can continue this conversation on overtime and in, uh, just a couple of minutes, eight o'clock on, um, on our YouTube channel, channel 2600, go to 2600.com and click on the link on the main page and join us at eight o'clock.
[49:43.810 --> 49:45.430]  You can call us and talk to us directly.
[49:45.830 --> 49:49.410]  Uh, we're going to close with, uh, something fairly new from negative land.
[49:49.470 --> 49:50.450]  They're putting out albums again.
[49:50.670 --> 49:50.930]  Good night.
[49:50.930 --> 49:59.120]  You know, yesterday hates today.
[50:00.140 --> 50:10.120]  In the world we live in, in the modern world we live in, yesterday hates today.
[50:11.340 --> 50:16.440]  Today hates yesterday and tomorrow.
[50:18.220 --> 50:21.360]  Tomorrow hates yesterday.
[50:26.740 --> 50:36.540]  And as long as the days keep coming, there will be more and more tomorrows to be hated.
[50:37.840 --> 50:45.680]  There will be more and more tomorrows to be hated.
[50:49.030 --> 51:02.930]  Most importantly, though, you can always count on the fact that there is no greater hate than today has for today.
[51:04.030 --> 51:20.930]  If you find this hard to believe, then believe what you can for now, and put away the rest for safe keeping, because you never know what you might begin to believe later.
[51:24.650 --> 51:33.950]  You never know what you might begin to believe later.
[51:43.460 --> 51:46.310]  Greetings, WBAI staff and listeners.
[51:46.310 --> 51:58.040]  If you work at WBAI, or if you are a regular listener, you know that the current 2021 Pacifica Bylaws referendum vote closes Wednesday, July 7th at midnight.
[51:58.380 --> 52:14.710]  I'm Linda Perry, Program Director at WBAI Radio and WBAI.org, urging you to vote in this very important referendum, which is to replace the Pacifica Foundation's bylaws with new bylaws proposed by a group of Pacifica members.
[52:14.710 --> 52:32.520]  If adopted, significant modifications would be made to the Foundation's governance structure affecting both the national and local station boards, including how you as a WBAI staff member and you as a listener are represented and can participate.
[52:32.600 --> 52:37.100]  While many have received ballots and have voted, many have not.
[52:37.100 --> 52:45.660]  If you are qualified to vote and have not yet received your e-ballot in your regular email, you may find your ballot arrived in your spam.
[52:46.020 --> 52:50.700]  Go there and search 2021 Pacifica Bylaws Amendment Vote.
[52:50.860 --> 52:57.620]  If you find it, open the link, scroll to the very bottom of the message where you can vote and obtain your receipt.
[52:57.920 --> 53:02.700]  Please do this before Wednesday, July 7th at 1159 p.m.
[53:03.080 --> 53:05.180]  This way, your vote will count.
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[53:12.400 --> 53:17.620]  The nomination phase of WBAI's 2021 local station board elections is underway.
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[53:28.770 --> 53:35.600]  As a nominator, once approved, you will be able to log in and check the boxes next to the candidates you'd like to see on your local station board.
[53:36.180 --> 53:41.040]  Each potential candidate will need at least 15 nominations in order to be on the ballot this October.
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[53:52.820 --> 53:56.420]  For more information, visit elections.pacifica.org.
[00:00.560 --> 00:02.860]  And welcome to Overtime.
[00:03.140 --> 00:09.160]  We are all gathered here to continue our discussion and also talk to our listeners, hopefully.
[00:10.060 --> 00:12.160]  Red Hat continues to join us from California.
[00:12.400 --> 00:15.400]  Good to see you again after all this time, after a decade.
[00:15.420 --> 00:17.340]  Yeah, it's really fun to be back.
[00:17.640 --> 00:18.960]  I miss these discussions.
[00:21.000 --> 00:22.480]  They keep us going, too.
[00:23.340 --> 00:27.200]  Basically, trying to figure out the world and all sorts of other things.
[00:27.200 --> 00:33.760]  Our phone number, as promised, for those people listening now, is 802-321-HACK.
[00:34.300 --> 00:35.500]  Yeah, that's a cool phone number.
[00:35.980 --> 00:39.840]  802-321-4225.
[00:41.480 --> 00:43.280]  And it's open to everybody this week.
[00:43.480 --> 00:45.420]  Sometimes you put restrictions saying only new people.
[00:45.540 --> 00:47.420]  Sometimes people haven't called before.
[00:47.520 --> 00:48.580]  Anybody can call right now.
[00:48.740 --> 00:50.260]  802-321-4225.
[00:50.380 --> 00:53.220]  The only thing is we can only take one phone call at a time, obviously.
[00:53.220 --> 00:58.420]  So if somebody gets through, well, that means you can't get through at that moment, but you can get through later.
[01:02.500 --> 01:05.420]  So, was there any conversation that we needed to continue?
[01:05.420 --> 01:07.900]  Or should we start on some new topics?
[01:08.240 --> 01:08.960]  Because... All right, go ahead.
[01:09.640 --> 01:10.940]  I had a question.
[01:10.940 --> 01:15.680]  And I'm sorry it's going to bring us back to the whole class action lawsuit thing.
[01:15.680 --> 01:19.120]  But I did have a question, which is this.
[01:19.680 --> 01:23.540]  Because of the copyright, or not... I'm not the copyright, sorry.
[01:23.560 --> 01:29.540]  The takedown notice that you got on the Off the Hook Overtime show a couple weeks ago.
[01:29.720 --> 01:35.180]  Oh, where the show got taken down saying that we were spreading misinformation about medical things?
[01:35.560 --> 01:35.960]  Correct.
[01:36.100 --> 01:39.980]  With absolutely no basis in reality whatsoever, and they apologized later and put it back up?
[01:40.380 --> 01:41.160]  Yeah, that one.
[01:41.160 --> 01:41.780]  That one, okay.
[01:42.180 --> 01:47.420]  Would that, however, make you a party to the class?
[01:48.080 --> 01:50.220]  I'm not saying any of this has any merit.
[01:50.220 --> 01:51.900]  I'm not saying it makes any sense.
[01:51.960 --> 01:57.240]  But what I am saying is, it seems to me that we may have an opportunity to view this from the inside.
[01:57.900 --> 02:01.460]  If we are indeed part of the class.
[02:01.640 --> 02:03.380]  Well, I wouldn't want to be part of the class.
[02:03.380 --> 02:07.920]  I mean, you know, this is something that YouTube did in error.
[02:08.080 --> 02:11.300]  But if they had done it and they meant it, it's their right.
[02:11.520 --> 02:14.380]  But it's my right to let people know about it.
[02:14.460 --> 02:21.240]  And also, because we operate our own website at 2600.com, we can just put it up there independently.
[02:21.240 --> 02:23.140]  We don't need YouTube to do that.
[02:24.840 --> 02:26.560]  But it's their playground.
[02:26.840 --> 02:29.260]  So if they want to make crazy rules like that, fine.
[02:29.460 --> 02:35.080]  But in fact, what it turned out to be was some kind of automated thing that was taken advantage of by one of our detractors.
[02:35.940 --> 02:39.140]  And it was revealed and it was resolved.
[02:39.600 --> 02:40.240]  Redhack, you have something?
[02:40.480 --> 02:40.740]  Yeah.
[02:40.880 --> 02:45.120]  Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, I think part of it is like willfulness, right?
[02:45.260 --> 02:48.540]  So I think in the case, we're talking about the Trump social media accounts, right?
[02:48.540 --> 02:58.180]  But so in I mean, in relation to this, so in that case, right, like the company specifically decided, okay, you're we're taking away, you know, your your podium.
[02:58.520 --> 03:05.220]  Whereas I assume that this was, you know, somebody reporting violation or got bots to report a violation or something like that.
[03:05.320 --> 03:11.780]  And once it was revealed that that was, you know, not the case, then then the content was restored.
[03:11.780 --> 03:16.560]  So, you know, versus the company saying, oh, we don't like this content, we're going to take you down, right?
[03:17.340 --> 03:17.780]  Right.
[03:20.260 --> 03:20.620]  Okay,
[03:23.940 --> 03:26.040]  I guess, I guess we've said everything we can on the subject.
[03:26.060 --> 03:26.420]  I'm just curious for a minute.
[03:26.640 --> 03:27.060]  Yeah, that's fine.
[03:27.320 --> 03:27.480]  Uh-huh.
[03:27.740 --> 03:29.820]  You want to join as a party to Trump's lesson?
[03:30.420 --> 03:32.080]  I would not ever want to do that.
[03:32.260 --> 03:34.120]  You should not hear the inside pieces of it.
[03:34.340 --> 03:34.680]  Yeah.
[03:36.020 --> 03:39.460]  Also, you could get a check for $7 eventually, maybe at some point, right?
[03:39.720 --> 03:42.560]  Yeah, that would be something worth looking forward to.
[03:43.860 --> 03:45.040]  Any phone calls come in?
[03:45.220 --> 03:46.400]  The lawsuit party.
[03:46.740 --> 03:47.740]  Now that's something.
[03:47.900 --> 03:48.360]  Any phone calls?
[03:48.360 --> 03:51.460]  Um, I don't have any coming in.
[03:51.620 --> 03:51.880]  Did you?
[03:52.320 --> 03:53.380]  I gave out the phone number.
[03:53.560 --> 03:54.040]  Did I do it wrong?
[03:54.400 --> 03:56.260]  802-321-4225.
[03:57.120 --> 03:58.520]  802-321-4225.
[03:58.880 --> 04:02.680]  Hearing from listeners is the highlight of my day, so I hope that we get phone calls.
[04:03.140 --> 04:04.320]  Do you need to check it?
[04:04.740 --> 04:05.620]  Do I need to check what?
[04:06.140 --> 04:08.200]  That the line is functioning?
[04:08.560 --> 04:10.400]  Oh, I think Rob can confirm that.
[04:10.540 --> 04:12.360]  We are, in fact, on YouTube, right?
[04:12.440 --> 04:12.820]  Okay, good.
[04:13.120 --> 04:15.280]  Well, I was talking about the phone line, but that too, that's important.
[04:15.380 --> 04:16.460]  It's important to check these things.
[04:16.460 --> 04:16.780]  It helps.
[04:16.780 --> 04:20.900]  It took us almost 10 minutes to get on the radio, and that's why the show went so fast.
[04:21.020 --> 04:21.700]  I don't want to talk about that.
[04:21.760 --> 04:24.720]  But here, we're on the internet, and I think we're connected.
[04:25.180 --> 04:38.280]  But, you know, on the subject of connectivity, the local, one of the local providers out here on Long Island is known as Altice, also known as Optimum, also known as Cablevision.
[04:38.280 --> 04:42.080]  And they've been in the news recently because what they are doing is reducing.
[04:42.340 --> 04:47.480]  When others are raising speeds, they're taking the bold move of reducing speeds.
[04:47.840 --> 04:53.140]  And they will be reducing cable internet upload speeds by up to 86% this month.
[04:53.140 --> 04:56.600]  And, best of all, they're going to do it without telling you.
[04:56.900 --> 05:11.340]  If you actually go and try to either downgrade or upgrade your service, you will find that the whopping 35 megabit upload speed that you have will be reduced to 5.
[05:11.740 --> 05:17.900]  And they're doing this because they say they want to bring it in line with what other companies throughout the nation are doing.
[05:19.500 --> 05:23.860]  That is what we are dealing with out here as far as connectivity.
[05:24.000 --> 05:25.160]  Now, if you have fiber, great.
[05:25.340 --> 05:27.800]  But so few people have access to fiber.
[05:28.380 --> 05:29.100]  It's insane.
[05:29.280 --> 05:34.060]  But I just, you know, have you guys heard of anything like this ever where a company can just go and do this?
[05:34.420 --> 05:35.720]  They're doing it because they can.
[05:35.960 --> 05:36.700]  Yeah, because they can.
[05:36.880 --> 05:38.700]  That's the benefit of having a monopoly.
[05:39.300 --> 05:51.580]  And, you know, on the flip side, and I don't know if you covered this, but I read recently about, I don't remember if it was a law or something, but in terms of restricting or eliminating public broadband, right?
[05:51.780 --> 05:56.760]  Getting rid of public broadband, which, of course, you know, I'm sure that the cable companies would love to see, right?
[05:56.920 --> 06:04.680]  I mean, public broadband networks tend to be cheaper, faster, and, you know, their competition, right?
[06:05.860 --> 06:19.600]  You know, I think what was interesting was back in the day when I was in broadband, you know, watching how when higher-speed broadband entered a market, suddenly the competitors raised their speeds, right?
[06:19.660 --> 06:24.820]  The competition literally forced their hand because otherwise people wouldn't want to buy their product.
[06:25.040 --> 06:31.460]  And so rather than improve their product, it seems like the idea is, ah, let's just get rid of the competition, right?
[06:32.600 --> 06:33.640]  Not unsurprisingly.
[06:33.980 --> 06:36.160]  No, that's pretty much modus operandi.
[06:37.620 --> 06:39.900]  Alex, what kind of speed do you have out there in the sticks?
[06:41.700 --> 06:44.180]  Alex, I'm pretty good.
[06:44.400 --> 06:46.480]  I mean, it's not 35 down.
[06:47.080 --> 06:48.020]  No, 35 up.
[06:48.220 --> 06:53.480]  It would be like 100 or 200 down or more, regardless of...
[06:54.600 --> 07:00.000]  I mean, I'm with a company called Blue Ridge Communications, and they're okay.
[07:00.360 --> 07:04.440]  It's pretty terrible when it comes to upload speed as well.
[07:05.260 --> 07:13.720]  But I think I usually only get about, you know, maybe 12 or 14 megabits down as well.
[07:13.880 --> 07:16.720]  So it's a lot slower than you have over there.
[07:17.920 --> 07:37.560]  But I wonder if this cap on uploading perhaps has something to do with piracy or streaming or not running servers, or really, if, frankly, anybody would notice it who wasn't doing something like that, because what are you going to be uploading if not,
[07:37.560 --> 07:38.880]  you know, these sort of giant files?
[07:39.000 --> 07:41.380]  Most people are just downloading things.
[07:41.480 --> 07:42.020]  We're consumers.
[07:42.180 --> 07:43.040]  We're consuming content.
[07:43.340 --> 07:46.740]  We're streaming things on our iPads and devices.
[07:47.420 --> 07:55.900]  We're not creators pushing things back out, you know, unless we're doing some kind of massive file share, or perhaps we're doing something wrong.
[07:56.100 --> 07:59.080]  Well, how about now, where we're talking to each other using a video connection?
[07:59.320 --> 08:00.240]  Yeah, I don't know about that.
[08:00.340 --> 08:01.500]  Like, encryption and stuff.
[08:01.500 --> 08:10.680]  There's all kinds of reasons why your upstream connectivity would be, you know, it would be useful for it to match it, or at least be something usable.
[08:11.720 --> 08:13.080]  Or even producing content.
[08:13.320 --> 08:15.580]  I mean, I've uploaded stuff to YouTube.
[08:16.120 --> 08:17.600]  That stuff can be pretty massive.
[08:17.780 --> 08:20.660]  You know, you upload an HD video that's three minutes long.
[08:20.660 --> 08:21.520]  That's like two gigabytes.
[08:21.520 --> 08:24.480]  I mean, on a five-megabit connection, that'll take you ages.
[08:24.760 --> 08:25.380]  You know what?
[08:25.400 --> 08:27.060]  That's a fair point, actually.
[08:27.400 --> 08:41.680]  And that's the other side of this, too, I guess, is that if we are uploading something that we're creating on these phones, and I hadn't thought about it this way, but if we're uploading something that we're creating on these phones that record in extraordinarily high definition,
[08:42.200 --> 08:47.060]  then those files are going to be really difficult to pass around.
[08:47.320 --> 08:50.080]  But I think for a lot of us, we probably won't even notice.
[08:50.080 --> 08:59.820]  I think most users of Altice probably won't see a big difference in those particular speeds, especially when their phones are connected to a 5G network.
[08:59.960 --> 09:07.620]  You know, when they're off Wi-Fi, that's so much faster, both, you know, in terms of downloading and uploading.
[09:08.200 --> 09:13.840]  One thing to note, though, is that it's not like they are completely independent, right?
[09:13.840 --> 09:17.060]  When you're downloading something, there's also a fair amount of data going up.
[09:17.240 --> 09:26.240]  And not having the proper upstream capacity can actually limit how fast your downloads operate as well, because there is a back and forth communication with the server.
[09:26.240 --> 09:30.700]  So, it's not one-to-one, obviously, right?
[09:30.900 --> 09:32.700]  But it does have an effect.
[09:32.820 --> 09:45.460]  I've definitely been in scenarios where I've had a very fast download pipe and a very slow upload pipe, and it has tremendously affected the ability to download, certainly for multiple servers, if not just a single one.
[09:45.540 --> 09:46.960]  You froze while you were saying that.
[09:46.960 --> 09:50.580]  Just to add emphasis, I think, to slow bandwidth.
[09:50.880 --> 09:52.600]  Isn't some of that, like, error correction?
[09:52.940 --> 09:54.240]  And just, it's normal, right?
[09:54.380 --> 10:02.140]  And it's, you're sort of, like, you're describing crippling aspects of that communications, right?
[10:02.840 --> 10:03.120]  Yeah.
[10:03.540 --> 10:08.940]  I think another motivation here might be also just being able to support more users with less.
[10:09.040 --> 10:14.460]  Not necessarily the bandwidth, but also, if you're looking at, you know, cable connections, those are shared across multiple users.
[10:14.460 --> 10:17.300]  They're doing time division, multiplexing, and things like that.
[10:17.420 --> 10:23.620]  And so, the larger the pipe they give an individual user, the harder it is to support all of them at once.
[10:23.820 --> 10:27.700]  That's why you see slowdowns with cable connections when lots of people are using them.
[10:27.980 --> 10:32.700]  I have a business connection at home because it's faster.
[10:33.020 --> 10:37.600]  And part of the reason I believe it's faster is that they use different frequencies than the residential network.
[10:38.060 --> 10:39.080]  It's a cable connection.
[10:39.080 --> 10:40.300]  I've never had a problem with it.
[10:40.380 --> 10:41.180]  I've never had a slowdown.
[10:41.200 --> 10:43.120]  And I'm almost positive that's why.
[10:44.460 --> 10:48.740]  If there was a good explanation, like technical reason, like, you know, we're really out there.
[10:48.880 --> 10:49.380]  We're trying.
[10:49.600 --> 10:51.160]  We're going to do something new.
[10:51.360 --> 10:51.980]  It's going to be great.
[10:52.080 --> 10:52.860]  They're not selling it.
[10:52.960 --> 10:54.540]  They're just like weird jerks.
[10:54.980 --> 10:55.680]  Pretty much.
[10:55.820 --> 10:56.240]  Pretty much.
[10:56.500 --> 10:57.800]  Without actually saying it.
[10:57.940 --> 10:58.740]  But here's the thing.
[10:58.840 --> 11:04.680]  You know, when I was comparing this with a friend of mine, I was convinced that there was something wrong with the connection.
[11:05.220 --> 11:15.760]  I was only getting 100, 200 down and something like 30 up, which is exactly what I was supposed to be getting, but it just seems super slow.
[11:16.020 --> 11:22.980]  And what he was getting in New Jersey was close to 1,000 up and 1,000 down at the same time.
[11:23.040 --> 11:26.940]  He had a fiber connection, which we cannot get.
[11:26.940 --> 11:41.440]  It's forbidden by law in some parts of Long Island because Verizon cannot offer it, even though they've wired the neighborhoods, they're not allowed to offer it because the cable company has been giving them a monopoly.
[11:41.580 --> 11:44.780]  They don't say that, but that is what is being practiced.
[11:45.240 --> 11:48.100]  Why else would you prevent them from actually offering the service?
[11:48.280 --> 11:56.880]  But the fact that they can, when they do offer fiber, when the cable company offers fiber, they're advertising speeds of 940 up, 940 down.
[11:56.880 --> 12:16.540]  So when we say that, well, 30 should be fast enough or 5 should be fast enough because that's what they're lowering it to, I'm not sure about that because, you know, having 940 available to people who want to get fiber, it seems like that opens up a lot of doors for things that you can do that you don't even know you can do now.
[12:17.440 --> 12:29.440]  Yeah, you know, technologically too, again, I mentioned before I used to be in broadband and technologically, you know, there's not really, I think, a very strong reason why people shouldn't be able to get high bandwidth connections.
[12:29.680 --> 12:37.380]  One of the things that I observed while I was in that space was that, you know, a lot of the work that, you know, fiber is very difficult to install, okay?
[12:37.380 --> 12:40.040]  It's expensive, it's hard to run, the wiring is...
[12:40.040 --> 12:46.080]  So it's not surprising to me that a broadband provider would be hesitant to roll out fiber to everybody.
[12:46.080 --> 12:47.260]  It's just really difficult.
[12:47.260 --> 12:49.280]  So that I can forgive them for.
[12:49.280 --> 12:56.600]  However, the thing that was happening when I was in that industry was that they were figuring out ways around this where they could get fiber pretty close.
[12:56.820 --> 13:04.820]  And then they had developed technologies that could get, you know, hundreds of megabits or maybe even a gigabit, if I remember correctly, over copper, right?
[13:05.060 --> 13:16.060]  And so the idea was, okay, get the high speed drop as close to the resident, the people as you can, and then use the existing infrastructure for the remaining hop.
[13:16.220 --> 13:17.840]  And that was much, much cheaper to do.
[13:17.840 --> 13:21.740]  I don't know why that hasn't happened, because I've been out of that industry for five years.
[13:21.920 --> 13:23.920]  And clearly it's gotten worse.
[13:24.940 --> 13:31.280]  And so, but I don't, I definitely don't think that technology is a factor here.
[13:31.400 --> 13:33.960]  I think it's business, it's capitalism.
[13:34.340 --> 13:40.440]  I do know that in some parts of Europe, this is just, it's standard to have super high speed.
[13:40.560 --> 13:47.700]  In fact, I think it was in Slovenia, where there were people who would basically work from home because the connectivity was faster there than at the office.
[13:48.400 --> 13:49.940]  And that's just the way of life.
[13:50.780 --> 13:53.160]  It should be the way of life here as well.
[13:53.280 --> 13:55.280]  It should be something that we expect.
[13:55.760 --> 13:57.180]  Have we really gotten no phone calls?
[13:57.260 --> 13:58.020]  Do we have no listeners?
[13:58.820 --> 13:59.720]  That's hard to believe.
[14:00.040 --> 14:02.400]  Maybe people feel we're not talking to them.
[14:03.760 --> 14:05.260]  But we are talking to you.
[14:05.560 --> 14:06.860]  And you can talk to us.
[14:07.040 --> 14:11.340]  I see someone is somehow calling in with a number of zero.
[14:11.580 --> 14:12.400]  I don't know how they did that.
[14:12.400 --> 14:12.940]  It's not ringing.
[14:13.060 --> 14:13.660]  Do you want me to answer?
[14:13.880 --> 14:17.500]  Well, try to answer it and see if maybe somebody is hacking the entire system.
[14:17.860 --> 14:19.320]  Do you normally get callers?
[14:19.480 --> 14:20.760]  Yes, we always get callers.
[14:21.680 --> 14:23.840]  Well, the only thing that's different is having you here.
[14:24.080 --> 14:26.600]  I don't know how you could have scared people away.
[14:26.760 --> 14:29.920]  But the phone number again, hopefully it works.
[14:30.660 --> 14:32.240]  802-321-4225.
[14:32.460 --> 14:34.800]  Area code 802-321-4225.
[14:35.260 --> 14:36.660]  Country code 1 if you're overseas.
[14:37.260 --> 14:38.580]  We do want to hear from you.
[14:38.660 --> 14:40.820]  If we don't hear from people, hey, we'll just sign off early.
[14:40.960 --> 14:41.780]  You know, scan off our nose.
[14:41.780 --> 14:44.580]  But this allows us to speak to our listeners.
[14:44.700 --> 14:49.960]  We can't do that when we're doing remote shows on the radio station because we don't have access to the delay system.
[14:49.960 --> 14:52.000]  And it gets very complicated with the FCC.
[14:52.520 --> 14:54.440]  But here we can do this.
[14:54.500 --> 14:57.300]  And we've rigged up a system where it's possible.
[14:57.380 --> 15:00.060]  Again, phone number 802-321-4225.
[15:00.060 --> 15:01.000]  There is a phone call.
[15:01.340 --> 15:02.620]  It's from a private caller.
[15:02.820 --> 15:04.860]  So somebody who knows how to block their caller ID.
[15:05.000 --> 15:05.380]  Congratulations.
[15:05.460 --> 15:06.140]  Good evening.
[15:06.140 --> 15:08.160]  You're on, off the hook.
[15:08.520 --> 15:08.780]  Overtime.
[15:10.220 --> 15:10.780]  Speak up.
[15:10.840 --> 15:10.880]  Hello.
[15:11.280 --> 15:13.860]  It's Checklist Day from So-Called Oregon.
[15:14.200 --> 15:14.940]  Oh, okay.
[15:15.020 --> 15:15.860]  Well, that's interesting.
[15:16.800 --> 15:18.500]  How's the temperature out there?
[15:19.500 --> 15:20.760]  It is...
[15:20.760 --> 15:22.980]  We're looking at 80 today.
[15:23.440 --> 15:23.640]  Okay.
[15:23.860 --> 15:29.480]  We've been enjoying co-residency with Sun for last week.
[15:29.480 --> 15:30.720]  Yeah, you've had...
[15:30.720 --> 15:31.680]  Three days in a row.
[15:31.860 --> 15:34.880]  You've had Venetian temperatures, I believe, is a good way to describe it.
[15:35.660 --> 15:39.680]  Yeah, you know, when lead melts on the sidewalk, you know, you call it, oh, Venus Day.
[15:40.500 --> 15:40.900]  Wow.
[15:40.900 --> 15:46.640]  Three days in a row that were record days since records were taken.
[15:48.100 --> 15:48.500]  Yes.
[15:50.480 --> 15:53.800]  Well, what's on your mind besides the hell you've just endured?
[15:55.900 --> 16:06.240]  Well, there was some reference to taking out the law against the municipal broadband, and I believe that was Ohio.
[16:07.160 --> 16:23.780]  And the really, the crux of it was they defined broadband as, you know, they said, okay, if, you know, commercial services are offering acceptable broadband, then you cannot have a municipal internet.
[16:24.200 --> 16:35.220]  And they defined acceptable broadband as 10 megabit or something like that, which they described as barely enough to keep a Zoom call going.
[16:35.720 --> 16:39.880]  But I would say it sounds like about USB-1 speeds.
[16:41.220 --> 16:41.820]  Yeah.
[16:42.060 --> 16:43.800]  Yeah, I don't think there's any argument there.
[16:44.940 --> 16:53.140]  And, and that speed was, that speed or greater was offered by commercial entities for 98% of Ohio.
[16:53.140 --> 16:57.540]  So it was basically outlawing municipal broadband.
[16:57.540 --> 16:59.960]  And Cincinnati was threatening to sue them.
[17:00.180 --> 17:04.520]  And they, they got a lot of pushback and they, they dropped it.
[17:04.660 --> 17:14.940]  And it was one of those things where no one knows who stuck the writer in that, you know, on some other bill that, that made this happen, which seems pretty strange in and of itself.
[17:15.200 --> 17:42.520]  But also regarding fiber, we, we have, you know, we are under the thrall of Xfinity here in Salem, but in most of Oregon, but in nearby Independence and Monmouth, affiliated with Western Oregon University, they've gone in together and offered fiber to everyone.
[17:42.520 --> 17:46.160]  And they offer TV and phone and internet over it.
[17:46.260 --> 17:48.480]  And it's super fast, super cheap.
[17:48.480 --> 17:50.620]  And so, you know, it's out there.
[17:50.820 --> 17:52.640]  It's, it's not easy to offer.
[17:52.640 --> 18:02.700]  I understand that, um, you know, there, especially if it's already working, it's, it, it, it kind of feels like a crime against humanity.
[18:02.980 --> 18:10.560]  If, um, you know, someone tries to outlaw it, you guys know a lot about setting up these things because you have to do it for hope.
[18:10.980 --> 18:19.280]  Um, but, uh, yeah, I wish there was something like, um, radio Statler for, for internet just going around and setting up municipal systems.
[18:20.200 --> 18:24.680]  Uh, the hacker mentality of just making something work and building something out of nothing.
[18:24.980 --> 18:25.580]  Yeah.
[18:25.640 --> 18:34.760]  We've learned a lot and seen other examples and been inspired by hackers around the world who've done really inspiring things for events.
[18:34.760 --> 18:41.440]  And that, that got us definitely, um, more focused on how best to implement something like a network.
[18:41.680 --> 18:56.120]  And, um, it, it is like costly and hard in a lot of ways, but, um, it, it is like costly um, it's an investment that you can continue to maintain and, and rely on in many ways.
[18:56.260 --> 19:14.760]  Um, so that, that, um, that implementation and outlawing because of legacy offerings like DSL or coax, uh, really is cynical, uh, and about like we'd been insinuating like profits really definitely profits more than, uh, the public interest.
[19:15.440 --> 19:19.840]  So those examples are profits and profits from lack of service.
[19:20.120 --> 19:20.200]  Yeah.
[19:20.640 --> 19:36.800]  I, it sounded like a joke headline, but, uh, you know, I'm in the current context, I'm not surprised you're saying, Oh, we're lowering our standards to, you know, be competitive with other, with other, uh, uh, companies, which I think they mean, uh, as profitable as.
[19:36.800 --> 19:37.580]  Yes.
[19:37.940 --> 19:40.420]  And they're not actually going out and saying it that loudly.
[19:40.580 --> 19:41.460]  You have to sort of dig.
[19:41.960 --> 19:48.820]  Um, it was, I think an Ars Technica article that revealed this, uh, and, um, they didn't deny it.
[19:50.820 --> 19:58.400]  I know that, um, I heard on one podcast of someone having good results with just the continuity of their internet service.
[19:58.640 --> 20:06.160]  They, they stuck a Raspberry Pi on that just regularly did, uh, connection and bandwidth tests.
[20:06.440 --> 20:12.940]  And then, uh, was able to use that data to get some refunds from cable internet for their frequent outages.
[20:12.940 --> 20:15.520]  Like here, we get 1 AM every day.
[20:15.880 --> 20:16.700]  The internet goes out.
[20:17.060 --> 20:17.540]  Really?
[20:17.740 --> 20:30.940]  And that's, yeah, that's so, so I have no idea, but you know, if it's happening at the same time, that's somebody somewhere saying, Oh, we're going to do X when no one is, you know, using the network value of nowhere.
[20:31.140 --> 20:32.360]  You know, it's, it's interesting.
[20:32.640 --> 20:37.260]  Uh, and the provider, is it a, a cable company or just an internet company?
[20:37.940 --> 20:39.120]  Um, yeah, yeah.
[20:39.240 --> 20:43.120]  Xfinity is like the cable company and the internet provider.
[20:43.120 --> 20:47.640]  Do you ever get, do you ever get emergency alert tests in the middle of the night?
[20:49.360 --> 20:51.040]  I have not gotten those.
[20:51.340 --> 20:56.180]  Um, I guess my health service is crummy enough that I've never been connected to a tower.
[20:56.660 --> 21:00.020]  Well, I, I, I mean for, for television, not, not for phones.
[21:00.420 --> 21:01.740]  Oh yes, absolutely.
[21:02.460 --> 21:03.480]  Uh, what are those like?
[21:05.000 --> 21:08.780]  Uh, it's, it's, uh, the, the sound goes out on the current program.
[21:09.200 --> 21:23.620]  You get some very loud, annoying, uh, you know, kind of, uh, noises and you get, uh, uh, automated message plus white on black blocks of text over the TV show picture.
[21:23.620 --> 21:24.200]  Wow.
[21:24.500 --> 21:26.460]  So you get the same thing that we get out here in Long Island.
[21:26.820 --> 21:32.200]  Altice, uh, almost every night at about two o'clock or three o'clock in the morning, they block out every channel.
[21:32.200 --> 21:34.520]  If you're watching a DVR, they block that out too.
[21:34.700 --> 21:49.300]  And basically it's just, uh, this is a required, uh, test from a provider and without any concern for the people who might be, you know, riveted to something on the television, they're just a big blue screen with this text.
[21:49.480 --> 21:52.420]  And in many cases it doesn't go away for about a half hour.
[21:52.720 --> 21:56.520]  So it's really super annoying and it never used to happen before.
[21:56.680 --> 22:04.920]  They would have tests, but it would just be a little scroll on the screen and, and, you know, maybe a, a, a slight interruption of the audio, but that was it.
[22:05.000 --> 22:08.720]  But now it's like you can count on it almost every night and it's really, really disruptive.
[22:09.860 --> 22:13.520]  Yeah, I can, that almost makes me want to count that.
[22:13.680 --> 22:15.700]  It's like, okay, can I get a refund for that time?
[22:16.080 --> 22:17.280]  Yeah, absolutely.
[22:18.940 --> 22:21.380]  That's, that's true.
[22:21.520 --> 22:29.840]  Or at least in the, in the middle of the day, if they happen in the middle of the day, a lot more people would complain, but I guess they figure whoever's watching TV at three o'clock in the morning, they're dispensable.
[22:31.860 --> 22:36.780]  I like that idea of logging, uh, with different tools though.
[22:37.300 --> 22:38.040]  It's your network.
[22:38.220 --> 22:39.500]  You can do with it what you'd like.
[22:39.740 --> 22:50.720]  And, and, um, like any other kind of equipment, it's, it's worthwhile maybe to set up a little testing or some kind of way to monitor your uptime as you described.
[22:51.060 --> 22:56.860]  Uh, those kinds of ideas will help people get more information about what their neighborhoods like or what they're dealing with.
[22:56.960 --> 23:07.140]  And I just hope in this case out, um, in this area that it's all just a big misunderstanding and they're going to offer something way better, way cheaper.
[23:07.940 --> 23:19.340]  And, um, you know, there, the pricing thing was a huge mistake, but the past has taught us to be a less trustworthy of that kind of thing with providers like this.
[23:19.440 --> 23:25.420]  Cause with billing and stuff like that, you know, like even getting those refunds is, is, um, an uphill battle, right?
[23:26.220 --> 23:26.860]  Yes, absolutely.
[23:26.860 --> 23:37.740]  Uh, that one was not so bad cause they, you know, they, they, they do tend to react to, uh, like, I think I'm going to just cancel this.
[23:37.820 --> 23:40.480]  I can get most of my stuff on over the top anyway.
[23:40.800 --> 23:41.520]  It's always worth trying.
[23:41.840 --> 24:01.100]  And, uh, then they always, they offered lots of stuff, but my, my pet peeve with the late night content is all these ads that are targeting the, the elderly and the, uh, sales vulnerable with, you know, oh, you need to get this warranty on your car or you need these,
[24:01.100 --> 24:03.480]  you know, magic pills to stop your arthritis.
[24:03.800 --> 24:05.220]  How about a reverse mortgage?
[24:05.500 --> 24:08.240]  You know, reverse mortgage is really a handy thing to have.
[24:08.480 --> 24:09.200]  Give away your house.
[24:09.700 --> 24:15.760]  Um, that's the only form of wealth that transfers between generations for most people.
[24:15.960 --> 24:20.420]  Oh, you, you probably don't have Joe Namath showing up on your TV every five minutes trying to sell you something though.
[24:21.840 --> 24:23.260]  No, we missed that.
[24:23.340 --> 24:25.000]  Yeah, we get that all the time in New York.
[24:25.720 --> 24:37.520]  I think what we need in, in terms of monitoring is, uh, you know, and this is an open call for anyone who wants to, to hack this together is a network that, uh, turns the video to the puppy channel.
[24:37.740 --> 24:38.940]  Every time a commercial comes on.
[24:39.360 --> 24:40.460]  Is there a puppy channel?
[24:41.500 --> 24:42.480]  We can make one.
[24:42.840 --> 24:48.320]  Oh, you know, we were discussing this last night, the, the TV channels we would like to see.
[24:48.620 --> 24:50.500]  And, and, um, but yeah, puppy channel.
[24:50.640 --> 24:50.800]  Definitely.
[24:50.960 --> 24:51.760]  I would add to that list.
[24:52.660 --> 24:53.020]  Yeah.
[24:53.180 --> 24:53.260]  Yeah.
[24:53.400 --> 24:53.400]  Yeah.
[24:53.440 --> 24:54.660]  And kitty cat, hang in there.
[24:54.780 --> 24:55.360]  That'd be good too.
[24:56.040 --> 24:57.380]  I don't want to discriminate.
[24:57.740 --> 24:58.040]  Yes.
[24:58.180 --> 25:03.380]  It's like a visual mute, sort of, but it's activated by the, uh, that...
[25:03.380 --> 25:05.320]  Wasn't there a fish tank channel at one point?
[25:05.720 --> 25:07.340]  I think, I think somebody offered that.
[25:07.480 --> 25:07.620]  Yeah.
[25:07.780 --> 25:09.280]  The, uh, or the, uh, the cat channel.
[25:09.420 --> 25:09.520]  Yeah.
[25:09.520 --> 25:09.880]  Yeah.
[25:10.640 --> 25:14.600]  Anything, anything else, uh, anything else you want to, uh, add from Oregon?
[25:15.660 --> 25:16.060]  All right.
[25:16.060 --> 25:21.000]  Well, I will, uh, I will continue to, uh, work overtime here and, uh, not Oregon.
[25:21.420 --> 25:21.760]  Okay.
[25:21.760 --> 25:22.580]  Well, thanks for your call.
[25:22.700 --> 25:23.080]  Stay cool.
[25:23.540 --> 25:25.080]  And, um, we'll talk to you again.
[25:27.440 --> 25:29.740]  And that's our, um, our first call of the night.
[25:29.840 --> 25:30.740]  Hopefully we get more calls.
[25:30.800 --> 25:31.800]  I saw we got calls.
[25:31.960 --> 25:37.080]  It's weird because we see the calls come in, even though we can't answer them while we're talking to somebody else.
[25:37.260 --> 25:40.140]  But other people were calling while that person was on the phone.
[25:40.860 --> 25:43.820]  Now that person is not on the phone, will they call back?
[25:43.940 --> 25:45.180]  That's, that's the question I have.
[25:45.360 --> 25:50.940]  Uh, well, the phone number is remains 802-321-4225-802-321-HACK.
[25:51.300 --> 25:55.640]  Uh, and, uh, we're wide open for anybody who wants to, uh, to call in Kyle.
[25:55.820 --> 25:56.700]  Am I hearing thunder again?
[25:56.800 --> 25:57.700]  Are we having another thunderstorm?
[25:58.300 --> 26:02.580]  Oh, you, I think you don't really think, well, should I go check that?
[26:02.780 --> 26:06.000]  We, we did a show last night, uh, for a different radio station.
[26:06.000 --> 26:09.540]  And there was a thunderstorm in the middle of it, which I thought was a lot of fun.
[26:09.940 --> 26:13.860]  Uh, in fact, we even went outside with a microphone, which probably was not the smartest thing in the world.
[26:14.400 --> 26:15.720]  You're asking me to do that again.
[26:15.740 --> 26:17.620]  I'll do that for the show as well.
[26:17.720 --> 26:20.420]  No, I don't want, I'll do it because you have to answer the phone.
[26:20.860 --> 26:21.680]  Oh, that's right.
[26:21.760 --> 26:22.100]  That's right.
[26:22.480 --> 26:22.780]  All right.
[26:22.940 --> 26:24.000]  Well, you might be right.
[26:24.200 --> 26:25.380]  That's assuming we get a phone call.
[26:25.700 --> 26:26.100]  You know what?
[26:26.160 --> 26:27.040]  We'll wait for the phone call.
[26:27.160 --> 26:30.120]  That way I can greet the caller and then I can go outside.
[26:30.720 --> 26:31.840]  Uh, go ahead red hacked.
[26:32.620 --> 26:41.660]  So I wanted to return actually to the conversation we were having at the end of the, the, the main show, uh, and just get maybe Alex's input or anyone's input really.
[26:42.200 --> 26:45.920]  Um, you know, we're talking about how we were talking about right to repair.
[26:46.300 --> 26:54.080]  Um, and I brought up the fact that, you know, a lot of these systems that we view as consumer systems or vehicles or whatever they are, are getting more complex over time.
[26:54.280 --> 26:54.420]  Right.
[26:54.480 --> 27:01.940]  And they have their own security requirements and you have, you know, uh, uh, I'll just scope it to vehicles.
[27:01.940 --> 27:04.860]  You have components that need to identify each other, et cetera, et cetera.
[27:05.020 --> 27:05.140]  Right.
[27:05.260 --> 27:17.300]  So there's going to be this tension that comes up between wanting to be able to fix something and having to kind of break the security models that are in place intentionally.
[27:17.540 --> 27:17.620]  Right.
[27:17.640 --> 27:22.100]  Like I don't necessarily want, let's say my car has a, I don't know, a built in camera.
[27:22.100 --> 27:22.700]  Right.
[27:23.460 --> 27:33.000]  And, and it's communicating with another system in the car, uh, you know, using, uh, encryption and, and, and, and, and, you know, certificate based authentication, for example, right.
[27:33.580 --> 27:44.620]  At what point do you say, okay, well that is sufficiently complex or, or, or we don't want to break that security model simply to let somebody, you know, fix that.
[27:45.580 --> 27:47.680]  What, what's this, what's, what's your take on that?
[27:47.820 --> 27:48.340]  I'm, I'm curious.
[27:49.600 --> 27:50.980]  I don't know the answer.
[27:51.080 --> 27:51.720]  I wish I did.
[27:52.820 --> 27:53.340]  Yeah.
[27:54.080 --> 27:54.520]  Difficult.
[27:54.740 --> 28:09.980]  I think, uh, impossible and intractical problem you've presented here, but you know, it is, it's interesting, but where to draw that line between what you do have a right to tinker with and then what would be as essentially a regulation of, of health and safety issues.
[28:10.160 --> 28:10.280]  Right.
[28:10.380 --> 28:24.400]  And that there's, you could be causing major problems on the road if you tinker with this, but you know, we, we still have the right to go under the hood and do whatever the hell we want to do to our engines and nobody can stop us.
[28:24.620 --> 28:25.040]  Right.
[28:25.040 --> 28:34.700]  Nobody can stop us from modifying our axles or our wheels and all of that cause death, destruction, utter mayhem on, uh, on the highways and the roadways.
[28:35.100 --> 28:50.040]  But so, so why should that on principle be any different from software, um, or some kind of source code, um, or, you know, configuration settings at the very least, I think.
[28:50.340 --> 28:57.940]  Um, but on the other hand, look, I, I completely see your point too, because I think that people are going to be much more likely to brick their cars.
[28:58.300 --> 28:58.740]  Right.
[28:58.860 --> 29:04.500]  If they have access to this probably then to actually, uh, you know, cause murder mayhem on the highways.
[29:05.220 --> 29:13.040]  So it's probably, Alex, they're bricking their cars because the, the, the people in charge say, if you do this, we're going to brick your car.
[29:13.200 --> 29:14.680]  It's not like they did something wrong.
[29:15.820 --> 29:16.260]  Right.
[29:16.560 --> 29:25.100]  Well, no, we're, we're talking about if you go in under the hood, under this right to repair act and you, you start tinkering with something that essentially bricks your car.
[29:25.620 --> 29:25.980]  Right.
[29:26.100 --> 29:37.340]  That, that, that, that's more likely to happen to perhaps than somebody going out there and, you know, crashing into a bus full of nuns, uh, you know, heading, heading to a religious, you know, convention in Miami or something like that.
[29:37.480 --> 29:41.760]  I mean, that, that would be, you know, a lot, a lot different, but I don't know where you would draw that line.
[29:42.240 --> 29:49.300]  Um, I, I think that, you know, maybe there could be some kind of demarcation based on, on certain functions.
[29:49.540 --> 29:56.420]  Um, you know, that could be considered inherently dangerous, but again, getting back to the issue of how he classified these things.
[29:56.540 --> 29:56.720]  Hang on.
[29:56.820 --> 29:58.260]  I think Kyle's drawing the line right now.
[29:58.660 --> 29:59.840]  I, I, no, I'm listening.
[29:59.840 --> 30:09.960]  I'm following along and I, I, I, I hear some of the, the positions there, like being, you know, totally of concern to, to everyone.
[30:10.020 --> 30:15.960]  I think we keep, um, coming back to examples like tinkering with something.
[30:16.460 --> 30:26.360]  Um, when I think that really points to not having reasonable access in the first place, that's not the same thing as repairing something.
[30:26.620 --> 30:28.900]  And I think that's, there's some conflation going on there.
[30:29.040 --> 30:38.160]  I also, um, I, I, I think there's a, something that a worthy discussion around it.
[30:38.360 --> 30:38.600]  Hold on.
[30:38.700 --> 30:44.240]  There's a call around it being, um, designed in a way.
[30:44.360 --> 30:53.680]  I mean, there's maybe designing something for safety and the sake of security, but also being designed to be harder to repair.
[30:54.000 --> 30:56.920]  Um, the manufacturer has a lot of that control.
[30:57.100 --> 31:05.020]  And I think what right to repair is asking for is a lot more in the realm of reasonable access to repair things yourself.
[31:05.400 --> 31:12.920]  And, and let's be honest, like the, the dealership is not doing micro soldering.
[31:13.080 --> 31:17.320]  They're not like, you know, writing code for your car.
[31:17.480 --> 31:18.460]  They're using tools.
[31:18.460 --> 31:19.720]  They're software tools.
[31:20.060 --> 31:24.620]  They're, you know, licensed and controlled by the dealer themselves.
[31:24.880 --> 31:33.240]  But let's not kid ourselves into the complexity and scariness being something that only the worthy mechanics can do.
[31:33.420 --> 31:38.300]  I find that a misnomer around repair as well, but I'd love to hear some thoughts.
[31:38.520 --> 31:44.100]  No, I think that's a fair observation because actually, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking a little bit about modularity, right?
[31:44.220 --> 31:54.780]  Like, yes, these things are going to be collections of complex systems and, and, and, you know, essentially, I mean, to put it very bluntly, you know, cars are going to be sort of like their own little internets.
[31:54.840 --> 31:58.420]  They already are, but that, that's, that's, you know, going further.
[31:58.580 --> 32:04.040]  And so, um, but that being said, right, you should be able to swap out this piece for that piece, right?
[32:04.140 --> 32:06.680]  At the very least that, that, that, that, that is reasonable.
[32:07.200 --> 32:14.320]  Um, and not have, and not break some magical scary, I mean, important key server somewhere in the process.
[32:14.320 --> 32:19.020]  It's like, no, you don't have to see any of what security protocols are.
[32:19.240 --> 32:28.080]  If you have a reasonable tool for third party, if you're your mechanic, or if you're a home self-taught that that's, I think the ask there.
[32:28.220 --> 32:32.520]  And it's important that I think my, in my opinion, that we go in that direction as they get more complex.
[32:32.700 --> 32:35.600]  So there are good tools, not shady, shifty stuff.
[32:35.800 --> 32:38.120]  You coddle together or tinker together.
[32:38.340 --> 32:43.560]  Uh, we'll get to the call in just a second, but we have a, a tool that we use, uh, on a car we drive.
[32:43.960 --> 32:52.600]  Occasionally the, uh, check engine light comes on and rather than just go to the, the dealer to have them deal with it, we run a test to see, okay, what does that mean?
[32:52.760 --> 32:54.940]  What, what code just got, got thrown.
[32:55.420 --> 32:57.280]  And it's very handy to be able to do that.
[32:57.440 --> 33:08.560]  And, uh, they would prefer that you not do that because then you don't have information in advance or you, you can't make a choice and say, okay, it's this, I'm going to, I'm going to have that fixed by this person instead of the dealer.
[33:09.080 --> 33:11.060]  So, uh, you know, it's all about control.
[33:11.200 --> 33:17.800]  They still like to like slip the diagnostic charge in there, even though you tell them exactly what is failing or needs replacement or where to look.
[33:17.980 --> 33:18.120]  Uh-huh.
[33:18.220 --> 33:18.360]  Yeah.
[33:18.420 --> 33:19.160]  Always an extra charge.
[33:19.300 --> 33:19.980]  Let's take this phone call.
[33:20.040 --> 33:20.340]  Good evening.
[33:20.460 --> 33:21.460]  You're on off the hook overtime.
[33:22.580 --> 33:23.260]  Good evening.
[33:23.540 --> 33:24.120]  How are you?
[33:24.340 --> 33:24.540]  Good.
[33:24.620 --> 33:24.920]  How are you?
[33:25.660 --> 33:26.560]  Not too bad.
[33:26.700 --> 33:27.560]  Calling from Connecticut.
[33:28.280 --> 33:32.080]  Uh, on the right to repair, uh, you know, I bought it.
[33:32.200 --> 33:32.940]  It's mine.
[33:33.140 --> 33:35.960]  I should be able to crush it into a cube if I want to.
[33:36.220 --> 33:36.880]  Yes, exactly.
[33:37.220 --> 33:41.200]  Of course, if I peel off the magic sticker, it's no longer under warranty.
[33:41.200 --> 33:42.260]  And that's on me.
[33:42.380 --> 33:42.720]  Uh-huh.
[33:42.940 --> 33:48.260]  What it will do though, is it'll make me decide not to maybe buy that car.
[33:49.300 --> 33:49.780]  Yeah.
[33:49.800 --> 33:53.360]  You know, I might go for a different model or something that I can fix.
[33:53.420 --> 33:56.380]  And plus, what about our local repair shops?
[33:56.860 --> 34:01.780]  You know, maybe I don't want, uh, I don't know, Ferrari to change my tire.
[34:02.120 --> 34:06.060]  Maybe Al's garage down the street would be better for me.
[34:06.880 --> 34:07.680]  Right, right.
[34:07.820 --> 34:16.780]  And instead of saying it's too complex for your local mechanic to deal with, why not give them the tools so they can deal with these complex parts of cars that are coming out these days?
[34:17.520 --> 34:18.000]  Certainly.
[34:18.160 --> 34:19.280]  There used to be ingenuity.
[34:19.540 --> 34:25.420]  I mean, they're not mysterious devices that nobody can figure out.
[34:25.420 --> 34:26.060]  Mm-hmm.
[34:26.280 --> 34:27.240]  Well, that's what they'd like.
[34:27.360 --> 34:28.600]  They'd like for it to be mysterious.
[34:29.200 --> 34:30.060]  Oh, absolutely.
[34:30.800 --> 34:42.780]  I mean, just like there are, I'm told, some people that will remove a catalytic converter to run straight pipes because they like the noise or put headers on it, they would fail an emission check.
[34:44.040 --> 34:51.140]  There are various things that people can do to use or modify it, and we have checks and balances around that.
[34:51.460 --> 34:56.160]  So, I mean, safety checks should still be considered.
[34:56.460 --> 35:02.220]  I mean, police can pull you over and do a safety inspection if they see something wrong.
[35:02.440 --> 35:02.680]  Yes.
[35:02.900 --> 35:04.220]  They're still checking emissions.
[35:05.820 --> 35:07.020]  In most states.
[35:07.160 --> 35:09.400]  Some states, they don't do that, which I find unbelievable.
[35:10.280 --> 35:11.880]  But, Kyle, you had something.
[35:12.200 --> 35:14.840]  Oh, I just thought of an example.
[35:15.980 --> 35:17.280]  It's specific to parts.
[35:17.420 --> 35:30.840]  Like, finding replacement parts, I actually had a situation with a car where I was replacing one of the headlight enclosures, which itself seems designed to break and become an expensive brake.
[35:32.960 --> 35:43.560]  Beside that, though, replacing it, I called a place that you could get parts from that was a third-party retailer that I had a relationship with previously.
[35:43.860 --> 35:59.300]  And they normally can take down the information, but because this was a foreign car, it was a complex car in a lot of ways, they refused, actually, the ability for a third party to order that part for me.
[35:59.320 --> 36:03.040]  So, I had to go and do it the way the dealer wanted.
[36:03.180 --> 36:04.400]  In this case, it was a Canadian car.
[36:04.520 --> 36:08.360]  We've told stories about that car for a lot of fun over the years.
[36:08.600 --> 36:19.140]  But examples like that, yeah, it's just, it's that control aspect we're always fighting with and talking about with systems and machines like this.
[36:19.920 --> 36:41.820]  I mean, by the same token, if I want to change out my own water heater in my house or a toilet or a sink, there are inspections that I have to go through, just local law, to make sure that I don't blow up my house or somebody else's house, I mean, those checks and balances would still need to be maintained.
[36:41.960 --> 36:48.940]  But one person to fix my car, the fastest thing it would do is make sure that I never buy that car.
[36:49.260 --> 36:51.080]  Yeah, that's your choice.
[36:51.260 --> 36:54.320]  And it's based on what they're telling you.
[36:54.540 --> 37:05.440]  But yeah, imagine if, you know, your toilet breaks and there's nothing you can do except call the toilet central people and they're the only ones with the codes to be able to replace this and no one else can touch it.
[37:05.660 --> 37:06.320]  That's insane.
[37:07.960 --> 37:10.160]  I'm going to jump off a call and let somebody else call in.
[37:10.200 --> 37:10.760]  Thanks for your call.
[37:10.920 --> 37:11.220]  Take care.
[37:11.420 --> 37:11.760]  Righto.
[37:11.840 --> 37:12.080]  Bye-bye.
[37:12.420 --> 37:18.720]  You know, I'm reminded, you were talking about the smart car, obviously, which is a Canadian licensed diesel smart car.
[37:20.100 --> 37:23.720]  We took it up there once to have the computer fixed.
[37:24.020 --> 37:30.040]  This is something that I still can't get my head around because I don't know what the computer does.
[37:30.720 --> 37:33.940]  It wasn't something that was in a previous car, but it broke.
[37:34.100 --> 37:40.280]  And because it broke, lots of things didn't work, and we had to spend a lot of money to get a new computer put in.
[37:40.440 --> 37:47.600]  And I remember we were up there in Canada and they needed codes from Mercedes of the United States.
[37:47.840 --> 37:49.260]  Daimler, specifically.
[37:49.580 --> 37:49.840]  Oh, Chrysler.
[37:49.960 --> 37:50.060]  Okay.
[37:50.200 --> 37:51.320]  Well, they're the parent.
[37:51.620 --> 37:51.980]  All right.
[37:52.120 --> 37:54.600]  So they couldn't get the codes themselves.
[37:54.760 --> 37:57.060]  They had to get the codes faxed to them.
[37:57.160 --> 37:59.820]  And they kept trying the codes.
[38:00.020 --> 38:02.520]  And they would only get a certain amount every day.
[38:02.920 --> 38:05.620]  And they'd try the codes and they wouldn't get the right codes.
[38:05.660 --> 38:07.060]  And then the next day, they'd fax them some more.
[38:07.120 --> 38:09.340]  It was the most ridiculous system I ever saw.
[38:09.580 --> 38:20.180]  But that was what we were... you know, instead of going and getting a car actually fixed by a mechanic with tools, we were dealing with fax machines and going over borders and codes for nothing.
[38:20.180 --> 38:24.420]  The kicker with that was the faxes were coming from Detroit.
[38:24.680 --> 38:24.860]  Yeah.
[38:25.020 --> 38:26.500]  So they were coming from the U.S.
[38:26.560 --> 38:28.560]  for a car that we could not fix in the U.S.
[38:28.660 --> 38:31.640]  like legally or for, you know, whatever control reasons.
[38:31.780 --> 38:39.080]  But they themselves had to get the, I don't know, adaptation code or whatever it was for this part.
[38:39.100 --> 38:39.100]  Yeah.
[38:39.100 --> 38:43.420]  If you brought the smart car to a smart car dealer in the United States, they could not fix it.
[38:43.500 --> 38:44.600]  Not because they couldn't.
[38:44.720 --> 38:46.080]  They didn't have permission to.
[38:46.280 --> 38:54.760]  So we literally had to drive the thing across the border to Canada to get them because they had authorization to use the codes that came from the United States in the first place.
[38:55.440 --> 38:57.140]  I'm sorry, I'm still getting upset by that.
[38:57.520 --> 38:59.840]  It had to be like 15 years ago, but wow.
[39:01.860 --> 39:02.840]  Yes, Alex, go ahead.
[39:05.500 --> 39:06.520]  Alex, I think you're muted.
[39:06.940 --> 39:07.860]  Yeah, I was muted.
[39:07.980 --> 39:09.580]  It has to happen at least once, right?
[39:10.080 --> 39:38.180]  So, you know, I think the gentleman from Connecticut called, I think, you know, a lot of his comments, and yours too, Emmanuel, especially about, you know, the access that one mechanic has and doesn't have, you know, led me to think about this a little bit more in terms of that very difficult question about where you draw this line as to what the public should have access to do and what they can't
[39:38.180 --> 39:40.180]  or what they shouldn't have.
[39:40.420 --> 39:46.820]  And I think that really there should be perhaps maybe two principles here that could guide where this line is.
[39:47.000 --> 39:59.120]  And I think it can, it doesn't necessarily have to be a clear line that never moves, but I think parity should drive where that line is, what the public has the right to do and what it has a right to tinker with.
[39:59.300 --> 40:03.380]  And parity specifically of what the dealer's mechanics would have.
[40:03.760 --> 40:10.500]  That whatever they have should be access, perhaps, accessible, perhaps to the public as well as, you know, to, to mechanics.
[40:10.740 --> 40:23.620]  And then, of course, the other one, and this is a clear line for anything, is that, you know, the rights of the public to see or inspect something are always going to end where somebody else's intellectual property rights begin.
[40:24.140 --> 40:24.580]  Right.
[40:24.720 --> 40:30.760]  And so they, they may be, have a lot of the source code that's closely guarded as a trade secret or something like that.
[40:30.840 --> 40:40.480]  So obviously, you know, that should be a pretty clear line when there's IP rights that are, um, uh, clear and unassailable.
[40:40.500 --> 40:45.140]  I think, you know, of course, the public shouldn't have, have access to, to violate that.
[40:45.380 --> 40:51.760]  But I think those two principles, parity and, and, um, you know, the public's rights ends where the, where IP begins.
[40:52.120 --> 40:52.820]  Rob, I'm sorry.
[40:52.900 --> 40:53.260]  I didn't see it.
[40:53.340 --> 40:53.900]  You had your hand up.
[40:53.960 --> 40:54.940]  It was just so still.
[40:55.160 --> 40:58.820]  And I thought that was just like a statue, but, uh, yes, you, you have something.
[40:58.880 --> 40:59.000]  Go ahead.
[40:59.360 --> 41:07.280]  The, the, the intellectual property end of this is fascinating to me because, um, and as, as the caller was suggesting, you know, well, this, this stuff will make me not buy that car.
[41:07.620 --> 41:22.300]  And we're still in an era where you kind of have that choice, but it's like, you know, if you've bought a television in the past 20 years and, uh, you can't, you can't, uh, practice, you practically don't have the ability to walk into a store right now and buy a television that is not a smart TV with its own apps,
[41:22.360 --> 41:28.360]  with its own, you know, asking for internet access so it can show you its own ads on top of, uh, whatever television's already showing you.
[41:28.700 --> 41:32.100]  And, uh, it's also something that you can't just open up and fix yourself.
[41:32.560 --> 41:45.020]  And, uh, you know, cars, they were, you know, for the longest time, they were basically analog devices and every single mechanic could walk into the, you know, tool store and buy, uh, the same wrenches and pliers and duct tape and whatnot that they needed to fix the things.
[41:45.160 --> 41:53.560]  But now we're in an era where you can have a car that is basically a computer with wheels and that computer contains closed intellectual property.
[41:53.760 --> 41:57.280]  It contains stuff that you're not allowed to fix if you don't have the right permission.
[41:57.560 --> 42:00.140]  And, uh, this, this to me is just fascinating.
[42:00.140 --> 42:02.000]  And I, I didn't like cars before.
[42:02.100 --> 42:03.300]  This is not making me like them now.
[42:03.400 --> 42:09.260]  No, to me, it's just depressing because I mean, think of all the hackers that came out of technology like telephones.
[42:09.360 --> 42:10.160]  You could take it apart.
[42:10.320 --> 42:20.140]  You could figure out how it works, uh, uh, clocks or, or, uh, cars or all sorts of mechanical devices that you could, uh, take apart and put back together again, or maybe not.
[42:20.520 --> 42:23.000]  But now it's all these closed systems.
[42:23.140 --> 42:24.440]  You're not supposed to open it or touch it.
[42:24.540 --> 42:25.580]  And it works by magic.
[42:25.720 --> 42:27.820]  I mean, who knows how a cell phone works?
[42:27.840 --> 42:31.300]  You know, you can't open it up and, and, and put it back together again.
[42:31.640 --> 42:34.880]  Uh, I don't think you can, but, uh, you're certainly encouraged not to.
[42:35.160 --> 42:49.340]  So I just worry what kind of people will come out of this decades in the future without access to being able to get your hands onto something, figure out how it actually is working, maybe make it better and put it back together again.
[42:49.620 --> 42:50.360]  Go ahead, Redhack.
[42:51.960 --> 42:53.980]  Yeah, no, I mean, I, I agree with that.
[42:54.100 --> 42:58.160]  I mean, it's, it's definitely, you know, things have gotten more and more complex over time.
[42:58.320 --> 43:01.400]  Rob made the point that I was going to make, I mean, in terms of that caller, right?
[43:01.460 --> 43:05.620]  The caller was talking about, well, you know, switching this part for that part.
[43:05.760 --> 43:13.200]  And yeah, that work, you know, when cars were basically, you know, an engine and an exhaust and all of that, but that's not the case anymore.
[43:13.380 --> 43:15.660]  They have very, uh, they've gotten smarter.
[43:15.880 --> 43:18.120]  They have all kinds of features in them, right?
[43:18.260 --> 43:27.840]  And, and, and doodads now that are not so simple to replace and that are based on, you know, similar levels of technology that you have in a smartphone that you have in a computer, et cetera.
[43:28.280 --> 43:32.500]  Um, and then throw in, of course, you're going to have self-driving vehicles and things like that, right?
[43:32.720 --> 43:34.060]  The complexity explodes.
[43:34.220 --> 43:37.120]  So again, I'm not against right to repair.
[43:37.260 --> 43:41.100]  If you want to do something, to your car, I think you should have a right to do it.
[43:41.180 --> 43:48.020]  But I think that there's, I think part of what I was trying to bring up was that that gets harder as time goes on.
[43:48.100 --> 43:49.280]  It's just not as simple.
[43:49.480 --> 43:52.780]  You know, I mean, we're, we're way past OBD ports at this point.
[43:52.840 --> 43:54.220]  Of course, the cars still have them, et cetera.
[43:54.360 --> 43:55.620]  And you can reset the check engine light.
[43:55.680 --> 44:03.880]  But I'm just saying that the systems that are in play here are, are much more complex and it's not so simple as just, I want to take it to a particular mechanic.
[44:04.020 --> 44:07.800]  Now to, to Alex's point, he said, well, we should have parity.
[44:08.000 --> 44:09.500]  And I think that's reasonable, right?
[44:09.640 --> 44:19.700]  I think that if, you know, having regulations that said, okay, any mechanic should be able to, you know, have access to the tools that are required to do these is, is totally reasonable.
[44:20.080 --> 44:22.940]  Um, and even individuals, they really want.
[44:23.100 --> 44:26.060]  Um, but, but even so, there's going to be a limit to that, right?
[44:26.160 --> 44:29.240]  There's all, you know, just like, uh, you know, we have APIs on the internet.
[44:29.240 --> 44:37.240]  It's going to be some sort of, uh, uh, interface that you have access to and, and not every piece of the car because you just simply can't do that anymore.
[44:37.520 --> 44:37.900]  They're there.
[44:37.960 --> 44:40.260]  They've got more than one computer in them now.
[44:40.440 --> 44:40.940]  Well, okay.
[44:41.080 --> 44:41.840]  Yes and no.
[44:42.120 --> 44:46.200]  Um, things are more complex, but things don't have to be more complex.
[44:46.300 --> 44:50.100]  What if you prefer to drive something that isn't filled with computers?
[44:50.200 --> 44:53.760]  What if you prefer, uh, to use vinyl instead of a CD player?
[44:53.840 --> 44:59.280]  What if you prefer an old fashioned, you know, analog piece of equipment rather than digital, you should still be able to do that.
[44:59.440 --> 45:06.420]  I know, you know, it, it flies in the face of quote unquote progress, but there is a certain symmetry and beauty to that as well.
[45:06.420 --> 45:13.180]  And I think, you know, if we, if we cast aside old technology in favor of new technology, I think that's almost always a mistake.
[45:13.180 --> 45:22.640]  Look at, for instance, pay funds, you know, how many times, uh, have there been situations where, um, the cell network has gone down and there's an emergency and there's no phone around.
[45:22.740 --> 45:25.220]  You can't call the cops or whatever it is you need to do.
[45:25.360 --> 45:31.600]  It's always good to have that backup technology there in some form or a way to do something a little bit differently.
[45:31.880 --> 45:39.720]  If nothing else, so that you have an ability to learn how it all fits together, how the technology can work in different ways.
[45:39.900 --> 45:50.840]  And you have some knowledge rather than just turning it all over to some mysterious, um, um, technician someplace that can replace something that you have no idea what it even is.
[45:51.280 --> 45:52.400]  Well, you can do that.
[45:52.520 --> 45:56.780]  You can go buy, uh, an old gas car and you can do it if you want to it.
[45:56.940 --> 46:02.120]  But I mean, the, the, you know, that that's still possible, at least for now.
[46:02.280 --> 46:02.640]  For now.
[46:02.780 --> 46:02.880]  Yeah.
[46:02.980 --> 46:03.800]  But it's not encouraged.
[46:03.980 --> 46:07.260]  And, and for other bits of technology, it's not possible anymore.
[46:07.520 --> 46:13.140]  Uh, a lot of things have just simply, um, stopped being produced or, or supported.
[46:13.720 --> 46:15.640]  And, um, I think that's a mistake.
[46:15.780 --> 46:23.620]  I think we should always have the old technology around so that we can learn from it, design things better and not just, you know, accept what we're told without question.
[46:24.040 --> 46:26.200]  You know, I, I feel we're doing that more than ever.
[46:26.420 --> 46:45.420]  It seems, it seems awful convenient too, that at a time when a lot of people are transitioning and, uh, the desirability to have vehicles that are electric and offer many of the features that are pretty normal now that we're being pat on the head and told it's so complicated and we can't possibly,
[46:45.420 --> 46:47.700]  like, maintain the future somehow.
[46:48.300 --> 46:57.480]  I, I find that really, uh, uh, disingenuous and, and it really doesn't put a lot of, uh, trust in people who have an interest.
[46:57.900 --> 47:05.180]  You're kind of like, you're saying like, oh yeah, we all have to get rid of cars and like, uh, that, that are, uh, this older technology.
[47:05.180 --> 47:13.540]  Or if you want to still work on a car, it has to be an older car, even though none of this stuff has been in place for cars that you, that still had computers.
[47:14.160 --> 47:32.700]  And, uh, so like that, that ability to, uh, do things retroactively when people are still sort of going to be making use of used cars for a little bit, at least as things progress, but when they're getting more complex to, um, to just sort of rule out the possibility because,
[47:33.400 --> 47:34.860]  well, it's just far too complex.
[47:34.860 --> 47:36.680]  You need to relinquish all control.
[47:36.960 --> 47:39.960]  It seems a little suspicious to me.
[47:40.160 --> 47:41.620]  I'm not suggesting that by the way.
[47:41.740 --> 47:43.540]  And I, and I don't think there's anything willful here.
[47:43.660 --> 47:48.380]  I'm just highlighting the fact that these things are getting more complex.
[47:48.380 --> 47:51.600]  And so the, the ability to repair them does become more difficult.
[47:51.600 --> 47:54.100]  I'm not saying that it's an intentional thing to lock people out.
[47:54.220 --> 48:03.900]  That's just like, in order to provide things like this, you have to have more complicated systems and you have to have that, that, you know, it's not a, I don't think it's an, you know, like they're trying to do it.
[48:04.260 --> 48:08.400]  Well, things are, I'm sure there are people who are trying to do that, but, uh, yeah, I agree.
[48:08.620 --> 48:20.640]  Uh, I don't think there's a conspiracy, but, um, I think, you know, as things get more complex, we should be going along for the ride and learning how these complex things work ourselves, just having more access to the technology.
[48:20.760 --> 48:25.600]  Many times it's, it's completely closed off to us, uh, trade secrets and all that.
[48:25.840 --> 48:32.600]  And it should be something that if we can't actually physically touch ourselves, we should at least understand every element of it.
[48:32.720 --> 48:33.540]  We have a phone call.
[48:33.740 --> 48:34.780]  Let's take this phone call.
[48:34.860 --> 48:35.120]  Good evening.
[48:35.260 --> 48:36.080]  You're on off the hook overtime.
[48:37.360 --> 48:38.120]  Hi, Bobcat.
[48:38.440 --> 48:39.000]  Hey, Bobcat.
[48:39.080 --> 48:39.320]  How are you doing?
[48:41.160 --> 48:41.840]  Hold on a second.
[48:42.040 --> 48:42.220]  Yes.
[48:42.460 --> 48:43.080]  Yes, we hear you.
[48:43.180 --> 48:43.620]  Do you hear us?
[48:44.680 --> 48:45.000]  Yes.
[48:45.180 --> 48:46.940]  Your, your, your volume is really low.
[48:47.140 --> 48:48.040]  Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
[48:48.180 --> 48:49.580]  I'm talking as loud as I can.
[48:50.580 --> 48:50.900]  Okay.
[48:51.100 --> 48:52.760]  Well, I've got, uh, five things.
[48:52.900 --> 48:54.120]  I'm going to go through them really quick.
[48:54.220 --> 48:54.580]  Five things.
[48:54.980 --> 48:57.520]  I heard the word oligarch earlier today on your show.
[48:57.660 --> 49:04.580]  And I heard it when I applied for a bank account today, they asked if I was an associate of any foreign government officials or oligarchs.
[49:04.640 --> 49:05.000]  Wow.
[49:05.320 --> 49:11.340]  And, uh, uh, and so I lied and said, no, um, uh, I understand you're using Jitsi.
[49:11.600 --> 49:12.720]  You're using zoom.
[49:13.420 --> 49:15.820]  Uh, you can use Jitsi, J I T S I.
[49:16.040 --> 49:20.900]  It's open source, Apache license, very stable video and audio sharing system.
[49:21.580 --> 49:24.460]  Uh, J I T S I, just look it up and try it out.
[49:24.700 --> 49:26.660]  It's better than zoom and it's, it's free software.
[49:27.680 --> 49:32.000]  Um, Altus optimum has been a nightmare for me for years.
[49:32.840 --> 49:39.360]  Uh, Altus lets you use supposedly millions of hotspots all over, uh, their coverage area.
[49:39.480 --> 49:39.560]  Yeah.
[49:39.620 --> 49:41.200]  They say that they say that, don't they?
[49:41.280 --> 49:41.460]  Yeah.
[49:41.600 --> 49:48.940]  They're that's, if you have an Altus router in your house, they are using your electricity to serve, uh, anybody walking by.
[49:49.920 --> 49:58.100]  Now what, what the thing is, they turned off their 2.4 gigahertz band, uh, a couple of years ago.
[49:58.420 --> 49:59.400]  They didn't tell anyone.
[49:59.560 --> 50:00.880]  Now I use it all the time.
[50:01.720 --> 50:04.520]  And so I called and said, what, why, why can't I connect?
[50:04.720 --> 50:06.280]  And they couldn't figure it out there.
[50:06.440 --> 50:08.920]  They were only using the five gigahertz wifi band.
[50:09.080 --> 50:09.480]  Wow.
[50:09.620 --> 50:11.940]  So they're like, well, just use your five gigahertz devices.
[50:11.940 --> 50:13.320]  Like I don't have any.
[50:14.120 --> 50:17.300]  The iPhones have had five gigahertz for 12 years.
[50:17.680 --> 50:18.740]  So great.
[50:18.880 --> 50:21.400]  I'm not going to buy an iPhone, but I, I got a Linksys router.
[50:21.700 --> 50:24.800]  Now I can use their Altus garbage.
[50:25.160 --> 50:28.760]  And you get that free with your, your, uh, optimum online account.
[50:29.120 --> 50:33.080]  Uh, there is a hack to, uh, increase your bandwidth up and down.
[50:33.280 --> 50:40.900]  Uh, so I connect to my home, uh, wifi router with my regular, uh, a PC, uh, fine.
[50:41.120 --> 51:02.820]  Uh, if I connect to the wifi, the, the, the Altus open wifi that they're providing, uh, on my dime with another device, and I never register that to my home SSID, I get a double bandwidth because those are separate channels that they're using.
[51:03.880 --> 51:14.980]  You're saying that if you, if you use something that's not part of your home network on, on that device, you'll get faster speeds than, than your devices inside your home will get.
[51:15.860 --> 51:24.060]  You'll get, I think you might get the same speed, but so I'll have my, my Android phone would connect to the Altus wifi everywhere.
[51:24.140 --> 51:30.500]  And if I'm not using, uh, my phone to control the device inside the house, then it's never a problem.
[51:30.920 --> 51:39.840]  Uh, you only have to have, uh, your, your app that's connect, controlling your TV connected to your home network so that it, it can find your TV.
[51:41.480 --> 51:41.960]  Wow.
[51:42.520 --> 51:44.400]  Um, here's an, here's another one.
[51:44.560 --> 51:56.260]  Uh, so you, you go to, uh, someplace, uh, they actually still do have 2.4 gigahertz, uh, uh, uh, hotspots around, but they're like on the major roads and in public buildings.
[51:56.580 --> 52:04.600]  So you connect to Altus wifi and ask you for your, uh, uh, uh, uh, email and, and, and password for your, your optimum online account.
[52:05.000 --> 52:12.220]  And it registers your Mac address of your phone or your, your laptop to the Altus system.
[52:12.280 --> 52:19.100]  And now you're, you can get on every time you see that SSID without, uh, entering your email and password again.
[52:19.300 --> 52:26.700]  So if it's recording your Mac address, you can just give that Mac address to other people who know how to spoof a Mac address.
[52:26.820 --> 52:40.380]  So if they have a rooted Android phone or, or, or a laptop that, that allows this, they can go anywhere and they can connect to, uh, uh, the Altus hotspots, uh, Xfinity, uh, uh, what's the one would I ask?
[52:40.520 --> 52:41.560]  Spectrum, et cetera.
[52:41.800 --> 52:42.580]  There's several of them.
[52:42.660 --> 52:46.220]  What happens if two, what happens if two of your Mac addresses show up at the same time?
[52:46.940 --> 52:47.700]  I don't know.
[52:47.780 --> 52:49.400]  I haven't tried that, but that would be great.
[52:49.460 --> 52:51.340]  Well, if you tell enough people, you won't have to try it.
[52:51.400 --> 52:52.000]  It'll just happen.
[52:53.120 --> 52:53.480]  Right.
[52:54.100 --> 52:58.280]  I'm, I'm, I'm sure I tried, uh, entering, uh, all zeros as a Mac address.
[52:59.060 --> 53:00.040]  Uh, it didn't like that.
[53:00.120 --> 53:01.300]  No, I didn't think it would.
[53:01.680 --> 53:02.120]  Dead beef.
[53:02.240 --> 53:03.280]  I think I did dead beef.
[53:03.460 --> 53:04.760]  So you might want to try dead beef.
[53:05.080 --> 53:05.480]  Okay.
[53:06.700 --> 53:07.100]  Wow.
[53:07.400 --> 53:08.120]  Uh, here's another one.
[53:08.200 --> 53:08.320]  Okay.
[53:08.580 --> 53:13.600]  Now the, uh, Puppy Channel, someone mentioned Puppy Channel, uh, This American Life did a whole thing on Puppy Channel.
[53:13.840 --> 53:17.520]  It was like a 25 minute story that came up with Puppy Channel back in the nineties.
[53:18.000 --> 53:21.320]  Uh, it, it never managed to make it, but it was a great idea.
[53:21.540 --> 53:27.280]  There's a theme song, which I won't sing, but I highly recommend the Friends of D-Line Rescue Center in Defiance, Ohio.
[53:27.600 --> 53:28.720]  No cage, no kill.
[53:29.220 --> 53:35.280]  Uh, they have a YouTube channel and there are cats and kittens running around 24 seven.
[53:35.560 --> 53:36.580]  It's, it's great.
[53:37.100 --> 53:37.640]  Wow.
[53:38.020 --> 53:38.280]  Okay.
[53:38.440 --> 53:39.480]  Well, that's, that's good to know.
[53:39.660 --> 53:40.700]  Uh, Alex, you had something?
[53:41.520 --> 53:45.560]  Yeah, I, I, the caller brings up an interesting, uh, idea to me.
[53:45.680 --> 54:03.840]  So if spoofing the Mac address of another device would allow you to properly authenticate essentially as that device on the, the Altice networks, their, uh, their SSIPs, I think it would be, uh, a funny, uh, murder story or something, right?
[54:03.940 --> 54:12.560]  If you had a, uh, or a detective story where you have a spoofed Mac address, you know, that essentially framed somebody else for murder, right?
[54:12.680 --> 54:15.120]  Because that's being associated with somebody's account.
[54:15.300 --> 54:26.320]  That's that activity, you know, and there's this assumption of non-repudiation for activity that originates from one particular device, even though that address could be spoofed.
[54:26.340 --> 54:27.740]  This is the first thing you think of.
[54:28.620 --> 54:29.340]  Yes, absolutely.
[54:29.580 --> 54:29.700]  Yes.
[54:29.940 --> 54:30.120]  Yeah.
[54:30.600 --> 54:34.780]  Well, I know to be, to be honest, you know, the, the first thing was, would this work?
[54:35.040 --> 54:36.560]  Uh, and then the second one, yeah.
[54:36.640 --> 54:37.780]  How do you, how do you exploit this?
[54:40.880 --> 54:42.360]  Well, you, you talked to the right guy.
[54:42.640 --> 54:44.040]  I'll, I'll murder someone and let you know how it goes.
[54:44.180 --> 54:44.360]  Yeah.
[54:44.760 --> 54:45.600]  Do tell us.
[54:47.000 --> 54:47.700]  That's great.
[54:48.540 --> 54:49.500]  There's one more thing, right?
[54:49.620 --> 54:49.920]  To repair.
[54:50.220 --> 54:54.540]  Um, I don't know if anyone there is familiar with Lewis Rossman, a Rossman repair group.
[54:54.640 --> 54:57.520]  He has a, uh, uh, he repairs MacBooks.
[54:57.780 --> 55:00.580]  He's over on, uh, West 27th Street near 7th Avenue.
[55:01.280 --> 55:03.820]  And, uh, he, he does no fix, no fee repairs.
[55:04.000 --> 55:08.160]  So unlike the Geek Squad or whatever, or the Apple store where they just tell you, oh, you're screwed.
[55:08.340 --> 55:09.740]  They're, you're going to charge you $35.
[55:10.340 --> 55:12.200]  Uh, you just go in there and he'll fix there.
[55:12.300 --> 55:13.260]  You can mail on your MacBook.
[55:13.500 --> 55:16.820]  But he, he streams repairs of MacBooks.
[55:16.860 --> 55:19.080]  He teaches, uh, how to repair MacBooks.
[55:19.120 --> 55:20.600]  He's got hundreds and hundreds of videos.
[55:20.760 --> 55:23.200]  He's got a million and a half, uh, YouTube subscribers.
[55:23.560 --> 55:25.900]  One of which is Steve Wozniak.
[55:26.220 --> 55:26.700]  Wow.
[55:27.000 --> 55:36.640]  And Steve Wozniak, uh, made a video for Lewis because Lewis asked him if he would support, uh, a ballot initiative in Massachusetts for right of repair.
[55:37.440 --> 55:49.040]  And if you go to, uh, Rossman, R-O-S-S-M-A-N-N on YouTube, you'll see the video that where he's talking about Woz sending him a video and there's a link to Woz's video.
[55:49.720 --> 55:59.180]  And, uh, uh, Woz recommends, uh, uh, uh, like the original Apple II, when you got it, it had a hand-drawn schematic by Woz.
[55:59.380 --> 56:06.920]  It had the, uh, the monitor listing, the operating system, all listed in the manual that came with the thing.
[56:07.120 --> 56:13.280]  And back in the day, you could like open a TV and there was a schematic inside, uh, you could fix things.
[56:13.480 --> 56:14.840]  And that was a regular thing to do.
[56:14.960 --> 56:16.300]  So Woz is all for that.
[56:16.880 --> 56:27.480]  Um, but like I said, R-O-S-S-M-A-N-N, uh, Lewis has raised $700,000 already to, uh, a flight for a ballot initiative in Massachusetts.
[56:28.040 --> 56:36.880]  And he's, he's working on some millionaires like Woz to, uh, contribute more and contribute their names to, to get this done.
[56:36.880 --> 56:37.760]  That's pretty awesome.
[56:38.160 --> 56:38.980]  Uh, Rob, did you have something?
[56:39.860 --> 56:46.120]  Uh, yeah, just to quickly address, uh, Bobcat's point about, uh, Jitsi, which, uh, I like, I, I've used it for a lot of things.
[56:46.240 --> 56:52.140]  That's J-I-T-S-I and it's a free and open source video conferencing, uh, system, an alternative to Zoom.
[56:52.340 --> 56:59.460]  The only reason we weren't using it for the virtual 2,600 meetings, we tried it at the beginning of, uh, lockdown and everything, and it just didn't scale up.
[56:59.600 --> 57:04.460]  Uh, once, once, uh, it got near the amount of people that we needed to support, it, it choked out.
[57:04.680 --> 57:11.280]  And it also didn't offer the telephone, uh, number accessibility that Zoom does, which was important to a few people.
[57:11.580 --> 57:18.760]  So in the interest of accessibility, I used Zoom, you know, choked back my, uh, you know, distaste for proprietary things and set it up that way.
[57:18.920 --> 57:24.680]  But, uh, that, that might change now that, uh, now that we're doing, uh, hybrid meetings, uh, in person and virtually.
[57:25.160 --> 57:31.340]  And, um, we'll, we'll see, uh, we'll see what the virtual side of that needs as, uh, as we go forward.
[57:33.320 --> 57:33.720]  Okay.
[57:33.820 --> 57:37.560]  There is a, uh, another, uh, product that the JITSI is associated with.
[57:38.020 --> 57:41.200]  It's eight, it's eight times eight by eight dot com or something like that.
[57:41.380 --> 57:51.900]  If you go to the JITSI site, you'll see it, uh, where it, you can do call-ins and call-outs and it does scale because I, I don't know what they charge, but there's a, there's a free, uh, uh, trial for that.
[57:51.980 --> 57:53.840]  But that's for, that's for like big corporate stuff.
[57:53.980 --> 57:54.780]  So it'll probably work.
[57:55.800 --> 57:56.120]  Okay.
[57:56.220 --> 57:57.060]  Well, thanks for your call.
[57:58.160 --> 57:58.480]  All right.
[57:58.600 --> 57:58.760]  Thanks.
[57:59.040 --> 57:59.240]  All right.
[57:59.320 --> 57:59.620]  Take care.
[58:00.300 --> 58:03.300]  And I think, uh, that's going to do it for, uh, phone calls tonight.
[58:03.420 --> 58:05.460]  I mean, uh, a good number, good variety.
[58:06.100 --> 58:07.180]  Um, yes, red hacked.
[58:07.320 --> 58:07.540]  Go ahead.
[58:07.820 --> 58:09.680]  Oh, I just, you, you jogged my memory early.
[58:09.700 --> 58:13.200]  I don't know if you saw my email manual, but I actually saw a wild pay phone last week.
[58:13.340 --> 58:14.360]  No, I don't think I saw this.
[58:14.840 --> 58:15.160]  Yeah.
[58:15.420 --> 58:16.160]  I, I didn't.
[58:16.320 --> 58:16.620]  Yeah.
[58:16.960 --> 58:18.340]  You mean a wild pay phone?
[58:18.500 --> 58:19.200]  What's a wild pay phone?
[58:19.200 --> 58:20.020]  It was in Yosemite.
[58:20.320 --> 58:20.640]  Okay.
[58:20.840 --> 58:23.240]  And there's an area, part of Yosemite called Glacier Point.
[58:23.380 --> 58:26.660]  It's like basically at the top of the valley and then you can see the whole valley from there.
[58:27.000 --> 58:29.180]  And right next to the parking lot, there was a pay phone.
[58:29.440 --> 58:32.700]  I, in retrospect, I didn't pick it up to see if there was a dial.
[58:32.860 --> 58:34.260]  I really wish I had.
[58:34.580 --> 58:34.900]  Yes.
[58:35.160 --> 58:38.900]  Um, but, uh, but yeah, it was just, I was very surprised.
[58:39.180 --> 58:39.840]  I had to take a picture.
[58:40.020 --> 58:40.700]  You did take a picture.
[58:40.820 --> 58:41.460]  Okay, good, good.
[58:41.560 --> 58:42.740]  Well, maybe it'll show up in the magazine.
[58:43.080 --> 58:43.400]  Maybe.
[58:43.760 --> 58:43.940]  Wow.
[58:44.460 --> 58:45.500]  You know, it's, it's amazing.
[58:45.820 --> 58:51.980]  Uh, you would think that, uh, with the way pay phones have been, uh, uh, on the decline, that we get less photos of pay phone.
[58:52.040 --> 58:53.860]  We get more photos than ever of pay phones.
[58:54.100 --> 58:58.240]  Uh, a lot of them aren't working, but still they look pretty amazing and pretty awesome.
[58:58.440 --> 59:00.500]  And, uh, I hope they stick around for some time to come.
[59:00.960 --> 59:02.960]  Well, they're more surprising now, right?
[59:03.180 --> 59:03.400]  Yeah.
[59:03.560 --> 59:06.260]  When pay phones were everywhere, then you didn't notice them.
[59:06.380 --> 59:06.760]  That's true.
[59:07.260 --> 59:13.140]  When I saw a pay phone, I said, whoa, do, do kids know how to use them?
[59:13.340 --> 59:20.880]  I mean, uh, at, at maker fairs, we we'd show regular desk phones to kids and say, can you figure out how to dial, you know, rotary dial?
[59:21.020 --> 59:21.700]  A lot of them couldn't.
[59:22.720 --> 59:23.920]  Yeah, probably not.
[59:24.160 --> 59:24.380]  Right.
[59:24.400 --> 59:25.040]  I don't know.
[59:25.420 --> 59:27.500]  Uh, I didn't, I didn't test it.
[59:27.860 --> 59:28.800]  Less and less.
[59:29.040 --> 59:29.740]  Yeah, for sure.
[59:29.980 --> 59:32.100]  And that's, that's the kind of thing I think we're talking about here.
[59:32.200 --> 59:37.500]  You should know how it works, how the old technology works, uh, because it's, it's still valid.
[59:37.500 --> 59:42.680]  It still gets the desired result and you get more of an understanding of, of how it all fits together.
[59:43.080 --> 59:43.520]  Yeah.
[59:43.600 --> 59:56.020]  That's one of the, one thing is I learned and loved so much about like museums and telephones, specifically the history, because it's informing you about what is going on in the kinds of systems running it today.
[59:56.580 --> 01:00:13.960]  And I think that, that scene, the evolution of, of how problems were solved mechanically or electromechanically, it's important because you can imagine, I think, imagine better some of the complexities of stuff that does not have, uh, uh, mechanics associated with it in the same way.
[01:00:14.100 --> 01:00:20.260]  Well, think of photography, for instance, you know, people should still be able to go into a dark room and, and develop things.
[01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:20.480]  Yeah.
[01:00:20.540 --> 01:00:30.320]  Everybody has a phone that takes pictures and you probably don't need to do that anymore, but, uh, still, uh, understanding how it works using that technology.
[01:00:30.320 --> 01:00:32.440]  I think, I think you're better off knowing it.
[01:00:32.640 --> 01:00:33.200]  Absolutely.
[01:00:33.380 --> 01:00:38.040]  That's a incredible example because of, um, the basics you learn.
[01:00:38.120 --> 01:00:56.620]  The first thing you do in a dark room is put shapes on photographic paper, little found objects and things, and you make, um, basically a silhouette and you learn, you start, and applying, uh, design skills from, you know, space like, uh, negative and positive space and contrast,
[01:00:56.960 --> 01:01:16.100]  learning those, um, forms and so forth and aspects of, uh, the art, bringing that into the, the science of photography, it, it absolutely helps you in your composition because if you're understanding of balance and prints or gray, uh, tonal ranges and so forth,
[01:01:16.100 --> 01:01:23.260]  if it's black and white, which is a great way to learn, you bring that to your composition of something with a digital platform.
[01:01:23.320 --> 01:01:27.900]  You're looking for balances and contrast and light and shape and pattern.
[01:01:28.120 --> 01:01:28.240]  Yeah.
[01:01:28.240 --> 01:01:30.360]  It helps you with the new technology as well.
[01:01:30.580 --> 01:01:31.600]  Understanding the old technology.
[01:01:31.700 --> 01:01:41.620]  Another example, uh, you know, drum machine, uh, you know, knowing how to, how to operate a program that has it, but also knowing how to play the drums that definitely will help you.
[01:01:41.740 --> 01:01:46.320]  Uh, so we should never just cast it aside or say it's irrelevant or outdated.
[01:01:46.740 --> 01:01:47.760]  It's always relevant.
[01:01:47.980 --> 01:01:49.100]  It always has something to offer.
[01:01:49.380 --> 01:01:52.020]  And, um, you know, it's, it's part of the learning process.
[01:01:52.620 --> 01:01:55.660]  Um, hey, I, you know, I think this is it for, uh, for overtime.
[01:01:55.800 --> 01:01:57.780]  I want to thank people for, uh, being a part of it.
[01:01:58.160 --> 01:01:59.600]  Uh, we will be back.
[01:01:59.820 --> 01:02:03.720]  I believe we'll be back next week with, uh, both off the hook and off the hook over time.
[01:02:03.800 --> 01:02:05.200]  And red hacker was great seeing you.
[01:02:06.640 --> 01:02:07.920]  I think, I think you're muted.
[01:02:08.240 --> 01:02:08.240]  Wonderful.
[01:02:08.500 --> 01:02:08.620]  Okay.
[01:02:08.820 --> 01:02:08.960]  Yeah.
[01:02:08.960 --> 01:02:11.860]  Um, things have changed a bit, right?
[01:02:12.020 --> 01:02:15.940]  I mean, uh, I guess new cast of characters and, um, and just technology is different.
[01:02:16.060 --> 01:02:16.260]  Certainly.
[01:02:16.940 --> 01:02:17.300]  Yeah.
[01:02:17.600 --> 01:02:17.820]  Yeah.
[01:02:18.060 --> 01:02:24.100]  You know, lots of things have changed, but, uh, no, this is, this is definitely like, just, I felt like dropping right back in.
[01:02:24.180 --> 01:02:27.360]  It didn't, didn't feel like, uh, difficult at all.
[01:02:27.460 --> 01:02:27.640]  Cool.
[01:02:27.680 --> 01:02:28.800]  Well, it's not difficult.
[01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:32.360]  You can be in another part of the world and, um, it's not in the studio.
[01:02:33.020 --> 01:02:34.820]  What a, what a amazing opportunity.
[01:02:34.820 --> 01:02:40.640]  I mean, remember when I was traveling around and people had to try to connect to me on a telephone and that was a challenge.
[01:02:41.200 --> 01:02:42.520]  Uh, it's gotten easier.
[01:02:42.920 --> 01:02:51.140]  I listened to one of those, one of the episodes I was listening back to, and I was in the studio trying to keep things together and we had you on a satellite phone.
[01:02:51.300 --> 01:02:51.760]  Oh, wow.
[01:02:51.860 --> 01:02:54.500]  And of course you were on the Trans-Siberian railroad.
[01:02:54.780 --> 01:02:55.000]  Uh huh.
[01:02:55.000 --> 01:02:55.500]  Like, wow.
[01:02:55.640 --> 01:02:57.060]  Oh no, I think you were on GSM actually.
[01:02:57.260 --> 01:03:00.060]  And you said something like, I'm amazed that this GSM connection is working.
[01:03:00.200 --> 01:03:02.620]  And then five minutes later we were, you know, okay, well we lost him.
[01:03:02.740 --> 01:03:02.740]  Yeah.
[01:03:02.780 --> 01:03:03.560]  That's the last thing I said.
[01:03:04.820 --> 01:03:08.220]  But I did use a satellite phone when I was on the freighter going across the Pacific Ocean.
[01:03:08.260 --> 01:03:08.860]  And that was fun.
[01:03:08.940 --> 01:03:09.040]  Yeah.
[01:03:09.640 --> 01:03:11.480]  So, uh, that was very interesting.
[01:03:11.580 --> 01:03:12.620]  I would, I would do that again.
[01:03:12.620 --> 01:03:16.540]  I would, I would, I would use that kind of technology as well because, uh, it's, it's definitely interesting.
[01:03:17.260 --> 01:03:18.600]  Um, well, thanks everybody.
[01:03:19.020 --> 01:03:24.000]  Uh, we will, uh, see you again and, uh, our email address, OTH at 2600.com.
[01:03:24.580 --> 01:03:24.820]  Good night.