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[00:46.170 --> 01:08.030]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a cough We couldn't get much worse But if they could, they would Bum-diddly-bom for the best, expect the worst I hope that's understood Bum-diddly-bom!
[01:08.030 --> 02:24.090]  Bum-diddly-bom for the best, expect the worst, expect the worst, expect the worst And the very good evening, Tried Right program is Off the Hook.
[02:24.330 --> 02:27.690]  Emmanuel, let's stand here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:28.150 --> 02:30.110]  I'm joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:30.290 --> 02:30.630]  Over here.
[02:31.350 --> 02:31.850]  Alex.
[02:33.890 --> 02:34.890]  Alex, you there?
[02:35.650 --> 02:36.850]  You unmuting yourself?
[02:37.530 --> 02:40.050]  No, there we are, I'm here, I'm back.
[02:40.350 --> 02:41.850]  Same buttons as every week.
[02:42.670 --> 02:43.170]  Welcome.
[02:43.830 --> 02:43.950]  Welcome.
[02:44.370 --> 02:44.730]  Rob T.
[02:44.850 --> 02:45.290]  Firefly.
[02:46.010 --> 02:47.530]  Good evening, I'm also here.
[02:47.670 --> 02:48.290]  And of course, Gila.
[02:48.770 --> 02:49.570]  I'm here too.
[02:49.990 --> 02:50.810]  Welcome everyone.
[02:52.410 --> 02:55.230]  Some very sad news to begin the show with.
[02:55.230 --> 03:05.090]  Um, the death of our very first keynote speaker, our very first speaker at the, um, at the HOPE Conference, Robert Steele.
[03:05.390 --> 03:13.210]  I'd like to start just by playing those opening moments from 1994, from, uh, I believe August 13th, 1994.
[03:13.830 --> 03:16.590]  Here's how the situation had, had shaped up.
[03:16.790 --> 03:19.950]  Um, we were, um, um, having our very first conference.
[03:19.950 --> 03:22.070]  We were on the 18th floor of the Hotel Pennsylvania.
[03:22.070 --> 03:23.650]  Some of you might remember this, actually.
[03:24.190 --> 03:26.770]  Um, we only had that, that section.
[03:26.770 --> 03:30.650]  We only had one track and, um, it was chaos.
[03:30.850 --> 03:36.310]  It was pandemonium because, um, we had the bright idea that we were going to take everybody's picture and put it on the badge.
[03:36.390 --> 03:42.370]  And we didn't realize that it would take, um, about five minutes for the, for the Macintosh to, uh, print out each one.
[03:42.370 --> 03:53.770]  And we had a thousand people there and it was just, it really, it got to the stage where people had to, had to walk around collecting cash from people and giving them temporary badges, which were basically a piece of paper saying that I paid.
[03:54.310 --> 03:57.750]  While all that was going on, the conference was supposed to start at, at noon.
[03:58.230 --> 04:00.290]  Um, we obviously were delayed.
[04:00.350 --> 04:05.490]  Uh, we were going to do an intro and then Robert Steele was going to give the keynote of the very first conference.
[04:05.890 --> 04:09.650]  Um, however, he started early because nothing was going on on stage.
[04:09.810 --> 04:11.050]  There was pandemonium in the background.
[04:11.050 --> 04:16.230]  So he, he, I think did the right thing and just started talking to the audience.
[04:16.230 --> 04:21.070]  So there's kind of like a pre keynote address before the actual conference begins.
[04:21.230 --> 04:29.110]  So I just want to play a couple of minutes of the very first moments of the very first hope with Robert Steele.
[04:29.950 --> 04:50.930]  Uh, the information continuum consists of K through 12 universities, libraries, businesses with enormous amounts of encyclopedic information that is not proprietary, um, private investigators, information brokers, media, including journalists with in-depth understanding of many topical issues that are of importance to economic competitiveness,
[04:51.410 --> 04:56.010]  government, including state, local, um, defense and intelligence.
[04:57.790 --> 05:04.650]  There are iron curtains between the sectors, there are bamboo curtains between the institutions, there are plastic curtains between the individuals.
[05:05.270 --> 05:16.550]  Um, the content that those talented people are putting into their localized databases is, as Al Gore once said, rotting, like grain in the silos.
[05:17.370 --> 05:24.330]  Uh, most employees, you know, Robert Reich, great book, uh, Work of Nations, talks about the high-performance workplace.
[05:24.510 --> 05:30.090]  What he doesn't talk about is the fact that the knowledge workers of America, which includes all of you, are on a starvation diet.
[05:31.630 --> 05:33.870]  You have to hack your way to, to information.
[05:34.530 --> 05:41.230]  Um, and I think one of the top priorities in this country needs to be getting content into the information commons.
[05:41.350 --> 05:45.470]  My friend Lee Feldenstein, at Interval, uh, coined the term information commons.
[05:46.030 --> 05:49.030]  Well, that commons is, in fact, a cesspool.
[05:49.650 --> 05:50.250]  All right?
[05:50.370 --> 05:51.430]  And it's empty right now.
[05:51.890 --> 05:56.150]  Most of what we know in these various distributed databases is not easily accessible.
[05:56.150 --> 06:03.310]  We got into a real nice conversation about ergonomics, and how the command line was really a way of making the human a slave to the computer.
[06:03.610 --> 06:10.410]  Because the memory wasn't big enough in the computer, so they had to basically modulately plug in the human, uh, to run the command lines.
[06:10.410 --> 06:17.950]  Well, now we're getting to the point where memory and all this stuff can handle this, but the people building computers still aren't in an ergonomic mode.
[06:18.330 --> 06:20.110]  Uh, I mean, for instance, there are no piano pedals.
[06:20.270 --> 06:21.350]  I mean, why aren't we using our feet?
[06:21.750 --> 06:24.170]  Uh, you know, there's a lot of stuff you could do.
[06:24.610 --> 06:29.870]  Um, and unfortunately, most computers are still being built by the people who grew up during command line times.
[06:30.530 --> 06:34.790]  Um, and lastly, or not lastly, the second, uh, so, connectivity content.
[06:35.190 --> 06:38.990]  Then you have, um, coordination of research and development.
[06:38.990 --> 06:41.010]  And this would need some changes in the antitrust laws.
[06:41.210 --> 06:43.470]  Uh, I'll give you an example from the intelligence community.
[06:43.830 --> 06:50.110]  Uh, I was on the, um, advanced information processing and analysis steering group, uh, of the Intelligence Research Development Council.
[06:50.530 --> 06:54.450]  And I formed the opinion that we had ten different what we call black compartments.
[06:54.530 --> 06:56.750]  These are like ten different closed doors.
[06:56.970 --> 07:02.690]  And they were each spending around ten million dollars a year to build a desktop workstation for their domain.
[07:02.690 --> 07:09.610]  This equates to a hundred million dollars a year to build ten different versions of the same generic information handling requirement.
[07:10.150 --> 07:10.470]  Okay?
[07:10.830 --> 07:18.330]  If you extrapolate that to the rest of government, the rest of the private sector, I think you're looking at two to four billion a year in this country, diddling with end-user computers.
[07:19.230 --> 07:19.570]  Okay?
[07:20.010 --> 07:28.510]  Uh, so coordination of research and development within industries, uh, within, uh, different government departments and so on, I think that needs to be orchestrated a little better.
[07:28.750 --> 07:32.990]  We need to work to move the common denominator of the tools up.
[07:33.590 --> 07:35.610]  Um, and lastly, security.
[07:36.390 --> 07:38.470]  I mean, you know far better than I.
[07:39.050 --> 07:40.030]  Uh, rah, rah.
[07:40.450 --> 07:42.270]  Uh, you know far better than I.
[07:42.690 --> 07:46.090]  Uh, that's, uh, a person who should remain unidentified.
[07:46.690 --> 07:50.250]  Uh, um, security in this country is a joke.
[07:50.710 --> 07:52.270]  Uh, in fact, I just, I love this book.
[07:52.270 --> 07:54.310]  I just read, uh, a Unix haters handbook.
[07:54.470 --> 07:57.530]  And it talked about how Unix security is an oxymoron.
[07:57.770 --> 07:59.390]  And I was told I might be stoned for that.
[07:59.790 --> 08:00.790]  Uh, but it is.
[08:01.290 --> 08:13.810]  Uh, corporations that want to be secure, government departments that want to be secure, individuals that want to be secure, cannot possibly achieve security when they're living in a cesspool.
[08:14.390 --> 08:19.110]  We have a national information environment that is nothing more than a cesspool.
[08:21.630 --> 08:32.030]  And that is, uh, the opening moments of the first hope conference, 1994 with Robert Steele, our first keynote, giving a preamble to all that.
[08:32.370 --> 08:36.090]  And, uh, Robert Steele passed away, um, a couple of days ago.
[08:36.290 --> 08:49.110]  Now, um, listening to that, listening to, um, uh, to, um, the way he addressed the, the, the hacker crowd, um, the way he, uh, ingratiated himself with this community.
[08:49.670 --> 08:58.750]  I, I think you, you, you might understand what was, um, uh, what worked between, uh, somebody who was, uh, formerly part of the government.
[08:59.350 --> 09:04.950]  And a bunch of kids who are breaking into computers and figuring out the, uh, the latest designs.
[09:05.270 --> 09:07.170]  Uh, he appreciated the hacker world.
[09:07.330 --> 09:08.990]  He, uh, was enthusiastic about it.
[09:08.990 --> 09:11.070]  He was a mischief maker, but something happened.
[09:11.990 --> 09:15.190]  Something happened over the, um, over the decades.
[09:16.970 --> 09:20.670]  And he, um, he became almost unrecognizable.
[09:21.630 --> 09:27.790]  Uh, and I'm going to read you, uh, what was in the daily news and, and maybe you'll, uh, you'll see what I mean.
[09:28.030 --> 09:30.050]  Uh, a former CIA agent.
[09:30.050 --> 09:41.190]  Um, actually he was an officer, um, which Alex can probably explain the difference to us, uh, who bought into, uh, QAnon conspiracy culture has seemingly died from COVID.
[09:41.730 --> 09:48.510]  The death of Robert Steele, a guest on the far right program, Infowars, was confirmed by a friend of his on social media Sunday.
[09:49.050 --> 09:55.410]  Uh, Steele prided himself as one of the first people to identify COVID, um, as a hoax.
[09:56.090 --> 10:04.770]  The, uh, 69 year old ex Marine was reportedly hospitalized in Florida earlier this month, but remained skeptical about the virus that was killing him until his dying breath.
[10:05.810 --> 10:07.590]  I will not take the vaccination though.
[10:08.530 --> 10:10.970]  I did test positive for whatever they're calling COVID today.
[10:11.070 --> 10:15.830]  He said on August 17th, the bottom line is that my lungs are not functioning.
[10:16.670 --> 10:19.450]  The good news is that I will survive with a few days off.
[10:20.930 --> 10:30.610]  He did not, uh, uh, still optimistically called his fatal illness, a near death experience that mirrored what he thought was happening in the United States.
[10:30.610 --> 10:33.510]  He believed he pulled through thanks to a sound network of friends.
[10:35.370 --> 10:44.490]  We will never be the same because now we know that we've all been lied to about everything, but now we also know that we can trust each other.
[10:46.970 --> 10:48.570]  There's more, but you get the gist of it.
[10:49.070 --> 11:01.690]  Um, this is what we've been talking about over the past number of months with, um, conspiracy theorists, uh, anti-vaxxers, uh, people who are denying the science.
[11:03.090 --> 11:08.030]  This is the first time it's claimed somebody so close to us.
[11:08.030 --> 11:12.910]  I'm speaking personally, myself, uh, somebody that we know, somebody that we were all familiar with.
[11:13.130 --> 11:14.210]  It killed him.
[11:14.790 --> 11:24.790]  And the poison that got into his system years before COVID killed him is what made him so susceptible to this.
[11:25.290 --> 11:35.850]  You know, Robert always, um, thought that was something nefarious going on in the, in, in, um, the halls of government and there, there always is.
[11:36.790 --> 11:43.890]  And he took great joy in exposing it, sharing it, figuring out ways around it.
[11:46.050 --> 11:57.870]  And that left him open to, um, to ideas that, um, eventually would prove to be self detrimental.
[11:58.430 --> 12:07.850]  Something that would, um, both lose him a lot of respect from a lot of people, but also as we have seen, lose him his life.
[12:08.970 --> 12:15.130]  And, uh, you know, I saw him in a documentary last year.
[12:15.330 --> 12:19.450]  I believe it was last year on vice, uh, where he was talking about Q and I, I couldn't believe it.
[12:19.550 --> 12:23.070]  I couldn't believe the things he was saying, but I still recognized Robert Steele.
[12:23.070 --> 12:27.030]  I still recognized that, that glint of mischief in his eyes.
[12:27.110 --> 12:30.490]  And I thought, you know, he's just playing a game here.
[12:30.670 --> 12:35.810]  He's just hacking the media, trying to get them to go along with the story.
[12:35.970 --> 12:49.130]  And, and one day he's going to emerge from behind this cloud and we'll be able to have a conversation again, the way we used to back in the 1990s and early two thousands.
[12:50.230 --> 12:52.930]  And the last set is not going to happen.
[12:55.230 --> 13:13.670]  And, you know, if anything, I think something like this happening is, is really going to weaponize us to fight even harder, to stop the nonsense that is literally claiming lies, to stop the lies that are being spread everywhere.
[13:14.370 --> 13:14.910]  Everywhere.
[13:15.570 --> 13:21.370]  In our schools, in our workplaces, on the streets, on the radio, even on this frequency.
[13:22.790 --> 13:23.830]  It's everywhere.
[13:25.230 --> 13:26.490]  We have to stop it.
[13:26.610 --> 13:27.430]  We have to fight it.
[13:27.570 --> 13:28.530]  We have to defeat it.
[13:29.850 --> 13:33.050]  Just like we have to conquer this disease.
[13:34.350 --> 13:35.930]  And get back to our normal lives.
[13:39.490 --> 13:44.350]  You know, a lot of people are making light of this.
[13:44.730 --> 13:45.570]  I understand.
[13:45.570 --> 13:48.370]  You know, a lot of people are saying, got what he deserved.
[13:49.110 --> 13:50.330]  He didn't believe in COVID.
[13:50.510 --> 13:51.390]  COVID believed in him.
[13:52.110 --> 13:55.470]  There's a whole, whole page full of comments.
[13:55.470 --> 13:56.070]  And I get it.
[13:56.150 --> 13:56.630]  I understand.
[13:56.630 --> 13:57.810]  I understand the sentiment.
[13:59.130 --> 14:01.870]  But I also feel something here.
[14:02.050 --> 14:06.250]  You know, I feel something for somebody that I used to hang out with.
[14:06.250 --> 14:08.850]  I used to go to conferences that he would host.
[14:08.950 --> 14:10.530]  He came to conferences that we would host.
[14:11.450 --> 14:12.970]  It was a unique relationship.
[14:13.130 --> 14:15.850]  He opened up doors that we never would have gone through ordinarily.
[14:15.850 --> 14:17.350]  And we did the same for him.
[14:19.850 --> 14:21.990]  And I'm sorry those days are gone.
[14:22.550 --> 14:24.150]  And I'm sorry this person is gone.
[14:24.170 --> 14:26.730]  He could have contributed so much more.
[14:27.810 --> 14:34.230]  And I am damn pissed off that this poison thinking has claimed yet another person.
[14:36.210 --> 14:37.170]  I'll shut up now.
[14:37.330 --> 14:39.170]  Anyone else have anything to share?
[14:39.250 --> 14:39.990]  Alex, you had your hand up?
[14:41.990 --> 14:42.710]  Yeah, sure.
[14:42.910 --> 14:48.490]  I mean, it's just, you know, another tragedy, I think, in a very, very long line of tragedies here.
[14:51.490 --> 15:00.190]  It feels to me a lot like, in a sense, it's an avoidable tragedy.
[15:00.810 --> 15:02.290]  But it's more than that.
[15:02.390 --> 15:04.410]  And I think it's more malicious than that, too.
[15:04.550 --> 15:20.110]  Because if you think about it, last year, if it was this time last year, if it was September 1st, 2020, and somebody didn't believe in the virus, or whatever, just the virus took you.
[15:20.270 --> 15:21.030]  You got sick.
[15:22.790 --> 15:24.750]  You quickly went downhill.
[15:24.750 --> 15:27.270]  You either recover or you go downhill.
[15:27.490 --> 15:29.410]  And let's say somebody went downhill.
[15:30.190 --> 15:31.750]  They became intubated.
[15:31.890 --> 15:33.570]  They were on a ventilator and they died.
[15:33.570 --> 15:35.410]  And it was a tragedy then.
[15:36.710 --> 15:45.910]  And we were all eagerly awaiting on September 1st, 2020, the rollout of a vaccine, news of a vaccine, wondering when it was going to hit.
[15:46.230 --> 15:50.170]  And then towards the end of the year, we got that light at the end of the tunnel.
[15:50.310 --> 15:52.250]  So we kept saying, there's light at the end of the tunnel.
[15:52.370 --> 15:53.170]  We're going to get out of this.
[15:53.270 --> 15:54.110]  We're going to get out of this.
[15:55.150 --> 16:00.610]  And when the vaccine became available, a large part of us began to take it.
[16:00.610 --> 16:15.230]  And now that there is a treatment, there is a vaccine that makes it 29 times less likely that you are going to get sick, that you're going to get hospitalized and die from COVID.
[16:15.590 --> 16:17.510]  It's eminently treatable.
[16:17.710 --> 16:20.970]  This is absolutely avoidable now.
[16:21.230 --> 16:25.670]  And because of that, this doesn't necessarily feel like a tragedy.
[16:25.670 --> 16:40.810]  It feels like this person was poisoned by whatever channels of misinformation were out there, were poisoned by the floodgates of misinformation, literal tidal waves of misinformation and established channels coming at him.
[16:41.250 --> 16:49.850]  And then he began to proselytize and espouse the same type of misinformation himself to others, going around and, frankly, poisoning others.
[16:49.850 --> 17:05.530]  And so, to me, this feels a lot like an avoidable death that is something akin, frankly, to manslaughter, perhaps even murder, because murder can come directly from the foreseeable consequences of a reckless act.
[17:06.190 --> 17:22.810]  And I think the spread of this misinformation, the spread of this, frankly, this nonsense about the vaccine, really borders on manslaughter, possibly murder, because we know full well, damn well, what is going to happen.
[17:23.350 --> 17:33.630]  And, you know, it was three weeks ago, I was on the show talking about a 29 year old cousin of mine, who also was unvaccinated and who died.
[17:33.630 --> 17:45.670]  And I remember saying that night that his mother was also very sick and that she was unaware that her son had actually died.
[17:45.810 --> 17:47.790]  They were afraid to tell her that her son had died.
[17:48.310 --> 18:03.110]  Well, that night, three weeks ago on that Wednesday night at around 10 p.m., she, too, died from COVID without even having been told that her son also died from COVID two days before.
[18:03.550 --> 18:14.330]  So, again, you know, just another avoidable tragedy is what I see the Robert Steele death as, is something coming from these floodgates of misinformation.
[18:14.330 --> 18:20.410]  And we absolutely have to fight back, but it's more and more prevalent everywhere you look.
[18:20.410 --> 18:26.870]  It's becoming more mainstream, I'm afraid, to doubt the vaccine, to discuss it on social media.
[18:27.030 --> 18:30.890]  And I believe that the more this is discussed, the more people put it in writing.
[18:31.270 --> 18:33.690]  Go, go to pen and paper on social media.
[18:34.010 --> 18:37.030]  I mean, actually put it out there and start arguing with each other.
[18:37.590 --> 18:41.350]  I feel like the more psychologically entrenched they are to these positions.
[18:42.770 --> 18:46.790]  And I don't know exactly what it is that needs to be done, but I think you're right, Emmanuel.
[18:46.950 --> 18:47.450]  We have to fight.
[18:48.290 --> 18:49.030]  Go ahead, Rob.
[18:50.470 --> 18:53.010]  The thing is, he is a loss.
[18:53.290 --> 19:00.130]  Not just because he used to hang around with us, but, you know, he is a human being and everyone's a loss in some form.
[19:00.310 --> 19:03.310]  But he was not an unintelligent person.
[19:05.230 --> 19:11.970]  So many of the people who we've lost to this through their own disbelief of what was going on are not stupid people.
[19:12.490 --> 19:17.730]  And it's very easy for those pages of comments to gather and say, well, they brought it on themselves, this and that.
[19:17.730 --> 19:28.670]  And the term that's going around is COVID idiots for people who end up end up dying of this because they refuse to get the proper protections.
[19:29.310 --> 19:33.370]  But there is also just a level beyond misinformation.
[19:33.450 --> 19:41.250]  And Robert Steele went over that line because not only did he disbelieve what was going on, he was actively spreading this.
[19:41.390 --> 19:46.910]  He was heading up and conducting a nationwide tour where he was taking a bus from place to place.
[19:47.010 --> 19:47.870]  He was having rallies.
[19:48.110 --> 19:49.190]  He was having gatherings.
[19:49.350 --> 19:51.150]  There are pictures of him shaking hands at these things.
[19:51.970 --> 20:00.810]  And it is so heartbreaking because we know not only did he pick it up somewhere in his travels, but there is every chance that he spread it to others.
[20:01.110 --> 20:05.770]  There is every chance that he is now responsible for other people suffering the same fate as him.
[20:06.230 --> 20:08.910]  And it is so sad.
[20:09.070 --> 20:16.630]  It is so sad to see people who we know are not stupid fall for this stuff and actively spread it.
[20:16.630 --> 20:19.130]  And, yeah, it is tragic.
[20:19.310 --> 20:21.370]  It is tragic, but it was also avoidable.
[20:21.450 --> 20:22.390]  This did not have to happen.
[20:22.690 --> 20:23.790]  None of this had to happen.
[20:25.030 --> 20:27.850]  You know, as Alex said, this is becoming more mainstream.
[20:28.750 --> 20:39.810]  You're seeing this kind of talk, this kind of disbelief of the scientific facts in more and more places, higher and higher up in government circles.
[20:40.150 --> 20:42.230]  So I guess the question is, what do we do?
[20:42.390 --> 20:43.570]  How do we fight this?
[20:43.670 --> 20:44.790]  I know we have to fight this.
[20:44.790 --> 20:48.110]  I know we have to get common sense back.
[20:48.470 --> 20:50.630]  And there are still a number of people.
[20:50.730 --> 20:53.930]  And as you say, Rob, he was an intelligent person.
[20:54.070 --> 20:55.090]  He definitely was.
[20:55.550 --> 20:59.990]  And there are so many intelligent people that are somehow sucked into this world.
[21:00.690 --> 21:01.890]  How do we get them back?
[21:02.090 --> 21:03.870]  Or can we get them back?
[21:07.480 --> 21:09.640]  I wish I had more answers.
[21:09.640 --> 21:11.140]  There was this very story.
[21:11.220 --> 21:18.460]  The other day I posted about Steele's death to a forum that is run by some hope attendees, 2,600 readers and stuff.
[21:19.460 --> 21:22.120]  Just a gathering online for hackers.
[21:22.440 --> 21:23.640]  And I posted this.
[21:23.640 --> 21:32.100]  And posting how I felt about it, much like I've just said, that started an argument.
[21:32.340 --> 21:33.280]  That started a flame war.
[21:33.400 --> 21:39.680]  That started something that led me to back off and not revisit that community sense.
[21:40.780 --> 21:42.160]  And these are hackers.
[21:42.500 --> 21:49.300]  These are people who have every ability, as does the hacker community in general, to seek out the good data.
[21:49.480 --> 21:51.020]  To find their way through the bad data.
[21:51.420 --> 21:56.700]  And to make good decisions based on facts and based on things that we find out and learn.
[21:57.760 --> 22:00.080]  And yeah, it is...
[22:00.080 --> 22:03.160]  Like I said, it's very easy to make light of it.
[22:03.240 --> 22:05.100]  It's very easy to say these people are stupid.
[22:05.220 --> 22:07.200]  But that is not necessarily the case.
[22:07.360 --> 22:10.940]  And in so many cases, it's very obviously not been the case.
[22:11.100 --> 22:16.360]  And I would like some answers as to how to fight the disinformation more effectively.
[22:16.480 --> 22:18.060]  Because it gets disheartening.
[22:18.420 --> 22:19.180]  Go ahead, Kyle.
[22:19.380 --> 22:23.180]  I'm not sure if it's on us to fight, necessarily.
[22:23.180 --> 22:23.980]  I don't know.
[22:24.120 --> 22:32.820]  I find that had people confronted him in this case, they probably, as Rob just said, would have been attacked.
[22:33.300 --> 22:34.740]  Like, ridiculously attacked.
[22:34.960 --> 22:42.480]  Maybe even woven into some new depth of the insane conspiracy.
[22:42.780 --> 22:44.100]  Oh no, we've already been woven into that.
[22:44.220 --> 22:44.760]  We're part of the conspiracy.
[22:45.000 --> 22:49.540]  But E, that's exactly why people do not want to touch any of this stuff.
[22:49.540 --> 22:57.680]  Because the poisonous rhetoric and attitudes and then networks that are supporting it.
[22:57.940 --> 23:03.400]  He talked about a network of people that helped him finally get into a hospital.
[23:03.720 --> 23:13.560]  But I think that these tour stops and these networks of people believing the wrong thing are doing this to one another.
[23:13.560 --> 23:22.760]  The people that, you know, announced this and are claiming some other conspiracy about it or whatever else, they did this.
[23:22.920 --> 23:25.500]  The people that affirmed his belief.
[23:25.500 --> 23:27.220]  There was not enough challenge.
[23:27.480 --> 23:28.480]  I don't know if it's a fight.
[23:28.480 --> 23:31.580]  I think it's challenging bad data.
[23:32.240 --> 23:35.060]  The poisonous information that people are believing.
[23:35.060 --> 23:36.500]  Well, how about consequences then?
[23:36.500 --> 23:40.080]  For the people that helped make this possible, they're responsible.
[23:40.440 --> 23:44.200]  They're held accountable for the deaths, for the hospitalizations.
[23:44.680 --> 23:46.240]  And that includes governors.
[23:46.240 --> 23:48.560]  That includes a congressman.
[23:48.680 --> 23:52.940]  That includes people who ridicule the science and encourage people to act irresponsibly.
[23:53.180 --> 23:59.920]  When there are consequences for these actions, for this tremendous irresponsibility, maybe then we'll see some kind of a shift.
[23:59.920 --> 24:07.440]  But if we simply treat it as something that, okay, we want to avoid that conversation, it's not like, you know, talking to somebody who believes the earth is flat.
[24:07.580 --> 24:09.720]  You know, it doesn't hurt you at all to let them have their say.
[24:10.000 --> 24:18.760]  But when somebody believes that there is no disease, when there is a pandemic going on, that person could kill a lot of people, including people close to you, including yourself.
[24:19.140 --> 24:22.920]  So we can't just, we don't have the luxury of just saying, all right, I don't want to touch that.
[24:23.040 --> 24:24.460]  I'm going to avoid that topic.
[24:24.660 --> 24:25.080]  You can't.
[24:29.920 --> 24:34.720]  One thing that I think is really interesting is looking at the tour itself.
[24:34.960 --> 24:39.060]  And I don't want to, you know, make too much of Robert Steele.
[24:39.160 --> 24:44.020]  But at the same time, that tour that he was on was kind of falling apart.
[24:44.800 --> 24:47.600]  Like, people didn't want to fund it anymore.
[24:47.600 --> 24:49.220]  They had to return the buses.
[24:49.660 --> 24:49.800]  Yeah.
[24:49.800 --> 24:54.780]  It was, people were not interested in going to it, funding it, or being part of it.
[24:54.880 --> 25:00.500]  So Robert Steele was driving around the country in his sad little SUV and zooming people in to these events.
[25:00.500 --> 25:13.660]  And now they are trolling, not trolling, but they're looking for donations to cover this man's debts and finish the tour honorably in his memory.
[25:14.980 --> 25:18.860]  And I think that's its own kind of statement, almost.
[25:19.140 --> 25:25.260]  If the core audience of it didn't want it to continue, how does it continue?
[25:25.260 --> 25:31.440]  If the core audience was starting to get turned off to the message, were they getting turned off to the message?
[25:31.440 --> 25:32.180]  I don't know.
[25:32.360 --> 25:33.360]  I'd like to think so.
[25:33.460 --> 25:45.860]  But at the same time, I'm also seeing people who believe that, you know, a quick Google search, like someone I know posted a hundred links about the vaccine and said, I did a lot of research.
[25:46.060 --> 25:47.000]  No, you didn't.
[25:47.200 --> 25:48.880]  You cut and pasted a bunch of stuff.
[25:49.060 --> 25:49.920]  You don't know anything.
[25:49.920 --> 25:49.940]  Right.
[25:53.600 --> 26:02.720]  And it's also interesting to juxtapose this discussion against the law that went into effect in Texas today.
[26:02.820 --> 26:05.680]  If I sound rattled, it's only because I am.
[26:05.680 --> 26:06.100]  Mm-hmm.
[26:06.760 --> 26:17.700]  And when people are saying, my body, my choice, and they're also enacting laws saying the exact opposite to people, you need to pick.
[26:17.940 --> 26:18.880]  You need to pick.
[26:19.640 --> 26:28.420]  And if you're going to say that I can do whatever I want and it doesn't affect anybody else, then you have to let other people do what they need to do.
[26:30.260 --> 26:37.500]  And it's frustrating and I don't know how we can turn it around at this point.
[26:37.660 --> 26:39.060]  I don't know if there's a way.
[26:39.880 --> 26:40.880]  I wish I knew.
[26:41.540 --> 26:46.140]  You know, those people who say, the anti-vaxxers saying my body, my choice, it's an insult.
[26:46.300 --> 26:50.380]  It's an insult to everybody who is pro-choice because it's not your body.
[26:50.380 --> 26:56.580]  It's the body of people around you, your kids, your family, your neighbors, your co-workers.
[26:57.520 --> 27:05.260]  You are spreading the disease to them by not being responsible, by not wearing a mask, where it's advised that you do so by not getting the vaccine.
[27:05.940 --> 27:10.460]  So it's your body, but you're choosing for everybody else.
[27:10.520 --> 27:12.080]  And that's about the most selfish thing I can think of.
[27:12.140 --> 27:12.560]  Go ahead, Alex.
[27:13.720 --> 27:14.880]  I mean, I think...
[27:15.800 --> 27:19.960]  I tend to agree with Kyle in this and that...
[27:20.760 --> 27:25.900]  Well, I acknowledge your point and agreed with it originally, Emmanuel, that I think we need to fight this.
[27:25.980 --> 27:27.360]  I think we need to fight it in a different way.
[27:27.360 --> 27:42.440]  And I've said this the last two weeks on this show, too, is that I think that we need to give people the space to change their minds, the space to go and get vaccinated and not feel stigmatized by it, to do it without fear, without reproach.
[27:43.460 --> 27:52.760]  And if we don't have that, if we have this stigmatization of those who are unvaccinated, who have changed their minds, they're just going to continue to be entrenched.
[27:52.760 --> 28:06.540]  I think a huge part of this problem is that there are so many publicly available records of the positions, the idiotic positions, frankly, that so many people have taken with respect to the vaccine.
[28:06.540 --> 28:24.900]  Once you start going on to Facebook and arguing with your friends, family, relatives, with whomever, about the vaccine, and you start pasting links and spreading misinformation yourself, this becomes part of who you are and your identity.
[28:25.140 --> 28:32.660]  It becomes part of you, and it becomes very, very difficult for anybody in any situation to admit that they were wrong.
[28:32.660 --> 28:42.440]  But in this situation, to admit that you are so wrong and that your errors have endangered the lives of others is extremely difficult to do.
[28:42.580 --> 28:45.780]  That's like turning around an ocean tanker psychologically.
[28:46.300 --> 29:02.560]  And instead of giving people this space, I feel like the social media algorithms, what we are fed through these content-pushing algorithms that foster nothing really but engagement on their part.
[29:02.660 --> 29:20.440]  are pushing us towards more of this polarization, because what I've seen when I peer into the discussions and conversations of people with whom I went to high school, who are unvaccinated and constantly ranting on Facebook about how horrible it is, is they're discussing this triumphantly now.
[29:20.680 --> 29:26.660]  They are saying, finally, people are coming around now and seeing the truth about this vaccine.
[29:26.660 --> 29:42.820]  And it's absolutely crazy to me, given what's happening in places like Florida and what's happening in places across the South, where there are barely any ICU beds left for anybody, because they're all taken up by people who have COVID and who are unvaccinated.
[29:43.620 --> 29:45.960]  We lost Robert Steele a few days ago.
[29:46.220 --> 29:48.860]  I lost two members of my family a few weeks ago.
[29:48.860 --> 29:51.900]  And there's no end in sight here because of this.
[29:52.080 --> 29:59.040]  We're going to be ping-ponging back and forth because of the high percentage of unvaccinated persons here.
[29:59.680 --> 30:13.880]  So to combat it, I think we almost have to take a Gandhi-like approach to this and using more passive forms of combat to fight this misinformation.
[30:14.620 --> 30:25.480]  Because at root, if we're talking about consequences and accountability for this type of misinformation, I think a lot of that is unfortunately going to have to come from within rather than without.
[30:25.820 --> 30:36.880]  If you criminalize the spread of misinformation, we're going to run into, I think, a lot of thorny issues in a liberal democracy like we have, because we're going to be talking about government content moderation of these private platforms.
[30:36.880 --> 30:43.560]  We're going to be talking about First Amendment issues and the criminalization of what people legitimately believed was the truth.
[30:44.940 --> 30:48.700]  And once we venture down that path, I think that really is a slippery slope.
[30:48.880 --> 30:49.400]  I agree.
[30:49.440 --> 30:50.820]  And I don't want to see us go down that path.
[30:50.820 --> 30:50.960]  Yeah.
[30:51.600 --> 30:56.240]  You know, there's a part of me that is arguing with the other part of me because I don't want to see that either.
[30:56.640 --> 30:57.260]  I totally agree.
[30:57.400 --> 31:00.180]  At this point, it's, you know, these are desperate times.
[31:00.340 --> 31:00.800]  What do you do?
[31:00.940 --> 31:02.240]  And I guess we're looking for answers.
[31:02.300 --> 31:02.700]  Go ahead, Gila.
[31:04.380 --> 31:08.620]  I think, Alex, your ocean tanker metaphor is really apt.
[31:08.620 --> 31:19.440]  I'm thinking about the footage from last week of Trump getting up at one of his rallies and saying, get vaccinated, and the entire crowd booed him.
[31:19.680 --> 31:23.620]  Like, there's nobody who can come out with this information at this point.
[31:23.620 --> 31:31.020]  I think, not I think, I almost know that there's almost no turning back from the place where we are now.
[31:32.160 --> 31:37.000]  Because the voices who said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, cannot suddenly say yes.
[31:37.000 --> 31:38.660]  And people will hear them.
[31:39.200 --> 31:48.100]  And we've gotten to a point where people are so entrenched in what they believe.
[31:48.620 --> 31:52.000]  And we're always there, but it's only more so now.
[31:52.220 --> 31:58.140]  And to hear what people are throwing around in terms of what needs to...
[31:58.140 --> 32:01.680]  I'm sorry, do people, like, not know what the word impeach means?
[32:01.680 --> 32:02.780]  This is the problem.
[32:03.080 --> 32:10.020]  Because people are so set in what they think they know, and they can't learn anything new.
[32:10.140 --> 32:12.380]  And people keep asking, why is the science changing?
[32:12.560 --> 32:14.860]  Why is what the scientists are saying changing?
[32:15.040 --> 32:17.320]  Because that's what science does.
[32:19.180 --> 32:23.740]  Science learns new things, and the science adapts because of new things.
[32:23.740 --> 32:32.920]  And when people are stuck in the cement of their ideas and can't move forward, there's no place to go.
[32:33.060 --> 32:34.920]  And it's absolutely terrifying.
[32:35.500 --> 32:42.040]  Because how are we supposed to move forward if so many people are standing in cement?
[32:43.500 --> 32:48.300]  Where are the truth... the jackhammers of truth to free these people from the cement?
[32:48.580 --> 32:50.720]  I don't know if they even exist.
[32:50.960 --> 32:52.200]  That's a great analogy.
[32:52.200 --> 32:56.340]  But, yeah, you know, what else changes apart from science?
[32:56.520 --> 32:57.260]  Viruses change.
[32:57.660 --> 32:58.520]  Viruses mutate.
[32:59.360 --> 32:59.760]  Viruses...
[33:00.220 --> 33:05.840]  I don't want to say get more intelligent, but they definitely adapt, and they can become more dangerous.
[33:05.880 --> 33:07.440]  And that's what we're seeing with the Delta variant.
[33:07.580 --> 33:11.960]  This is all stuff that if we had been listening to the scientists the whole time, we would know this.
[33:12.180 --> 33:13.180]  It's all...
[33:13.180 --> 33:17.880]  There's nothing here that was not presented as something that was indeed possible.
[33:17.880 --> 33:22.980]  But, you know, I think to your point, with people not changing their minds, it becomes an issue of pride.
[33:23.220 --> 33:29.540]  And if you suddenly go and get the vaccine, well, then you're admitting you're wrong, and you'd rather be dead than admit you're wrong.
[33:29.900 --> 33:34.780]  I just, you know, is there some kind of way we can make it so that they get the vaccine and that proves they were right?
[33:34.780 --> 33:43.900]  You know, is there some way we can just jump through all kinds of logic loops and just make it so that, yeah, this is your victory?
[33:44.340 --> 33:45.080]  I don't know.
[33:45.180 --> 33:47.320]  It might have to come down to something like that.
[33:47.380 --> 33:48.200]  Kyle, I know you had something.
[33:49.280 --> 33:57.720]  Well, yeah, I was thinking as we spoke, and I just feel that I'm hearing such sympathy.
[33:57.720 --> 34:08.340]  And I think that right now maybe isn't the best time to go over various critiques, because I don't think that vaccination was his only issue, especially with this tour.
[34:08.880 --> 34:11.020]  And that needs to be very clear.
[34:11.780 --> 34:14.240]  It was not what he was talking about.
[34:14.480 --> 34:18.280]  He hated Hillary a lot, this much, I would say.
[34:18.460 --> 34:18.600]  Yeah.
[34:18.860 --> 34:20.080]  And that's not hyperbole.
[34:20.080 --> 34:42.240]  And when you're saying wild things about entire political parties or entire classes of people, making generalizations, and then citing your bona fides as some sort of intelligence guy, I think that that is incredibly hostile.
[34:42.240 --> 34:57.960]  And that contributed in a huge way to his alienation and the lack of filters on information, and especially with the advent of algorithmic social media.
[34:58.200 --> 35:04.560]  And that, I think, just bringing it back to something he was really passionate about, which was open source intelligence.
[35:04.560 --> 35:07.800]  Was this ever something we asked enough?
[35:08.040 --> 35:13.900]  Like, how do you filter in an environment where all information is considered?
[35:14.080 --> 35:27.060]  Because he truly believed that was important, or it was a part of American intelligence that was missing, or a part of the intelligence community that was neglected.
[35:27.060 --> 35:49.420]  And I could see in his embracing of hackers, and with all of the kind of leaking and stories that came about in the last 20 years, since 94, when he spoke, I think he saw a lot of potential in getting more information out there and letting people digest it.
[35:49.420 --> 35:59.180]  But I don't know that we fully explored the consequences of not filtering, and not verifying, and not having sources.
[35:59.860 --> 36:16.280]  So, anyway, I think that further alienation, just throwing around stuff, it scares people from challenging ideas, especially when you wind it into violent or other kinds of movements that are based on fear and based on hatred.
[36:16.280 --> 36:20.140]  And that is... I don't want to explore that now.
[36:20.260 --> 36:40.700]  Right now, I'm so concerned about his family, and how perhaps estranged they might be from him, because of maybe many more years of wild ideas that he had floated around the house, or whatever his dynamic is.
[36:40.700 --> 36:41.740]  I know he has children.
[36:41.960 --> 36:48.120]  I know that they also may be dealing with health issues as a result of this.
[36:48.240 --> 36:50.920]  And those concerns, I think, should be front of mind.
[36:51.080 --> 36:55.080]  But I feel a lot of different ways about how this went.
[36:55.320 --> 37:00.000]  Well, you know, you're absolutely right that there was more to this than just anti-vaccine talk.
[37:00.000 --> 37:11.120]  I couldn't care less if he hated Hillary, but I am deeply concerned that he also became a Holocaust denier, was defending January 6th.
[37:11.280 --> 37:16.820]  Everything you could imagine that QAnon stood for, he was right there.
[37:16.840 --> 37:20.620]  And it's part of the same poison, and it's something that we're seeing happen to a lot of people.
[37:20.680 --> 37:26.520]  We have to figure out how to handle this, because it's a disease in and of itself.
[37:28.140 --> 37:32.160]  All right, I'd like to move on to a couple of other things, kind of related, actually.
[37:32.740 --> 37:36.560]  And this is just sickening to read about.
[37:37.680 --> 37:49.840]  The Health and Human Services Office of Inspector General has told ABC News that they're receiving increasing reports of individuals creating, purchasing, and using fake COVID-19 vaccination cards.
[37:51.600 --> 38:00.720]  Now, the proliferation of these cards can leave victims' personal identity vulnerable and threaten the nation's hard-fought game against the virus.
[38:02.360 --> 38:08.800]  According to a special agent in charge of health care fraud, we are seeing it be widespread.
[38:08.800 --> 38:16.800]  And part of that is because it's being done across social media and e-commerce, where anybody who might run into it could become a participant in it.
[38:17.100 --> 38:34.500]  The first... or the illicit niche industry for forged vaccination cards is hitting its stride just as new vaccine requirements are rapidly being implemented at the federal, state, and local levels, and in both the public and private sectors, requiring proof of inoculation in order to work at a hospital,
[38:35.020 --> 38:39.080]  teach or attend school, work out at the gym, or eat inside a restaurant.
[38:39.080 --> 38:48.220]  Yet, despite the new policies and the FDA's full approval this month of Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine, some hesitant Americans still refuse to be vaccinated.
[38:48.340 --> 38:55.020]  And that's interesting because that was the major argument that a lot of people were using against getting the vaccine.
[38:55.160 --> 38:56.340]  It hasn't been approved by the FDA.
[38:56.340 --> 38:57.980]  That means, you know, it's an experiment.
[38:58.180 --> 38:59.340]  Well, now it has been approved.
[38:59.500 --> 39:00.780]  So what's the excuse now?
[39:00.960 --> 39:02.040]  There's another excuse.
[39:02.240 --> 39:03.700]  There's always going to be another excuse.
[39:03.880 --> 39:09.620]  Don't fall for that, that we just have to fulfill this one condition, and then the argument is over.
[39:09.740 --> 39:11.700]  No, that's not how conspiracies work.
[39:11.780 --> 39:12.840]  That's not how cults work.
[39:12.980 --> 39:16.200]  There's always something else that they will fall back on.
[39:16.520 --> 39:23.020]  We have to treat this as a disease itself and figure out how to pull these people out somehow.
[39:24.200 --> 39:25.380]  It's so tragic.
[39:26.040 --> 39:27.560]  So yeah, fake cards everywhere.
[39:29.180 --> 39:30.840]  I don't know what we can do about that.
[39:30.960 --> 39:31.680]  I really don't know.
[39:31.840 --> 39:33.500]  People are going to forge all kinds of things.
[39:33.500 --> 39:41.460]  It's just a horrible scenario that people are willing to put their own health and that everyone around them in great jeopardy.
[39:41.580 --> 39:41.960]  Kyle?
[39:42.140 --> 39:49.120]  I just wanted to add, I heard a woman was arrested for an extra $50 with your fake COVID card.
[39:49.260 --> 39:52.880]  She was entering you in the database somehow, the New York Excelsior database.
[39:53.480 --> 39:54.920]  Yeah, I don't think that's true.
[39:55.240 --> 39:56.420]  I mean, I don't think she could do that.
[39:56.500 --> 39:56.740]  Okay.
[39:56.900 --> 39:59.120]  Unless she worked for New York State and somehow had access.
[39:59.120 --> 40:01.720]  Some story, I can't cite it right now.
[40:01.740 --> 40:04.660]  No, I believe she offered to do that, but I don't think she actually...
[40:04.660 --> 40:05.320]  Is that what she was offering?
[40:05.400 --> 40:05.600]  I don't know.
[40:05.600 --> 40:07.000]  So she couldn't actually do it.
[40:07.000 --> 40:09.880]  I would like to know if she actually could do that, but I doubt it.
[40:09.920 --> 40:12.120]  People are being charged with crimes as a result of this, though.
[40:12.220 --> 40:12.940]  They should be.
[40:13.180 --> 40:14.060]  Absolutely, they should be.
[40:14.100 --> 40:17.460]  And a lot worse than underage drinking at a bar.
[40:17.700 --> 40:19.480]  This is something that could kill people.
[40:19.600 --> 40:19.800]  Rob?
[40:20.460 --> 40:21.920]  Yeah, I saw that story, too.
[40:21.980 --> 40:24.720]  And apparently, I think she was in Brooklyn, and they busted her.
[40:24.820 --> 40:27.980]  I think she was selling the counterfeit cards for like $250.
[40:27.980 --> 40:33.800]  And I just thought, you know, imagine paying that much money to avoid getting free medicine.
[40:35.060 --> 40:39.420]  Yeah, paying that much money to avoid getting a vaccine that will save your life.
[40:39.920 --> 40:45.300]  I mean, I never thought we'd be dealing with issues like this.
[40:45.340 --> 40:48.080]  You know, it's just so bizarre and absurd.
[40:48.580 --> 40:49.680]  Alice, go ahead.
[40:50.540 --> 40:51.000]  Yeah, sure.
[40:51.120 --> 40:52.580]  Two points on this.
[40:52.580 --> 40:58.180]  You know, the first one is that, you know, we knew this was going to happen for a very long time.
[40:58.360 --> 41:01.460]  We knew that, you know, there were going to be fake vaccines, fake vaccination cards.
[41:01.460 --> 41:15.320]  The whole supply chain, when it comes to the virus, from PPE to now the vaccination cards, has been, I think, rife with forgery and fraud since probably about March 2020.
[41:15.860 --> 41:25.980]  And for the last, I guess, eight or nine months or so, that's, you know, an effort in which I've been involved along with the King's College London and Department of Homeland Security.
[41:26.220 --> 41:31.360]  And the work that I do with the domain name is to track all of this type of activity in the DNS.
[41:31.360 --> 41:38.300]  And so, I've been doing that for about, you know, I would guess nine or ten months now.
[41:38.760 --> 41:49.260]  And there is a massive amount of vaccine-related activity, especially when it comes to vaccination cards in the DNS, I would say, over the last month, month and a half.
[41:49.260 --> 42:05.260]  So, you know, also not surprising, but on the fake vaccination card side, what was really interesting to me was the ability to have not just a fake vaccination card, but to have a fake entry put into the New York State database itself.
[42:05.440 --> 42:06.620]  But that's what we're just talking about.
[42:06.820 --> 42:08.360]  Do you really think that's a possibility?
[42:09.200 --> 42:10.040]  It is.
[42:10.220 --> 42:10.560]  Yeah.
[42:11.120 --> 42:12.280]  Oh, it absolutely is.
[42:12.340 --> 42:15.520]  And it was part and parcel with some of these scams.
[42:15.520 --> 42:31.940]  And, in fact, if I recall correctly, and I don't remember which one of the bus with which it was associated, but there was a woman who worked in a doctor's office in Patchogue on Long Island who was part of the scam.
[42:32.560 --> 42:37.620]  And for a fee, she would enter the vaccination data into the New York State database.
[42:39.120 --> 42:39.960]  Scary stuff.
[42:40.180 --> 42:40.880]  So then you can get your...
[42:40.880 --> 42:41.580]  That is unbelievable.
[42:41.940 --> 42:44.760]  That is... I just have no words for that.
[42:44.760 --> 42:50.720]  But, you know, it should be doable to at least find all the people that she entered into the database.
[42:50.920 --> 42:57.980]  There must be a record of the source somewhere and at least find out how many of those people actually got the vaccine and how many didn't.
[42:58.840 --> 43:01.080]  Here's another story out of Quebec.
[43:02.100 --> 43:09.200]  They're set to implement a vaccine passport system in some non-essential services today, actually, September 1st.
[43:09.200 --> 43:17.220]  But cybersecurity experts are saying the QR codes the province is using and the app that's being developed to scan them pose privacy concerns.
[43:17.380 --> 43:25.440]  Patrick Matthews says creating an app that can read the contents of Quebec's digital vaccine passports isn't that hard to do.
[43:25.760 --> 43:31.080]  He's the co-founder of HackFest, which is an annual hacker event in Quebec City, which, for some reason, I don't know about.
[43:31.080 --> 43:32.740]  I'd like to go to that someday.
[43:33.060 --> 43:44.680]  It says two of its members built an app that could access a person's name, date of birth and vaccination status by scanning the QR code provided to Quebecers by the health ministry.
[43:45.040 --> 43:50.720]  Two people that are not experts in this at all built an application where you scan the QR code.
[43:50.940 --> 43:54.000]  He said they built the app in about 20 hours.
[43:54.000 --> 44:01.560]  Now, starting today, Quebecers will have to show proof of vaccination to access certain non-essential activities.
[44:01.740 --> 44:07.800]  Businesses will have access to a free app from the government that simply tells the user whether or not a customer is adequately vaccinated.
[44:08.160 --> 44:22.740]  But Matthews says a less scrupulous business owner or employee could build or purchase a third-party app that instead saves their data, which also includes where a customer received their vaccinations and if they have contracted COVID-19.
[44:22.740 --> 44:31.380]  Now, there's no location data accessible from the QR code, but the risk exists because the government chose technology that's not secure for privacy.
[44:31.780 --> 44:34.000]  It's not just the QR code that could be exploited.
[44:34.140 --> 44:40.900]  Hackfest also found a bug in the app when it was being developed that led to over 300,000 QR codes being exposed online.
[44:41.520 --> 44:49.020]  He says they notified the developer, Akinox, and the issue was resolved in 24 hours, but he doesn't have a lot of confidence in the company.
[44:49.180 --> 44:51.580]  Their development environment is exposed on the web.
[44:51.580 --> 44:52.720]  We can see their source code.
[44:52.840 --> 44:53.480]  They have bugs.
[44:54.920 --> 45:00.580]  Yeah, it's sad to say that a lot of these systems are as insecure as a lot of other systems.
[45:01.280 --> 45:12.700]  But let's not be fooled into thinking that means that the need for the vaccine, the need for confirmation that you've gotten the vaccine is any less important.
[45:12.700 --> 45:16.680]  It's hugely important, and this should not keep you from doing that.
[45:16.840 --> 45:18.560]  But, yeah, we're going to see things like this.
[45:18.880 --> 45:20.240]  Again, not a surprise.
[45:21.680 --> 45:23.080]  Okay, we only have a few minutes left.
[45:23.220 --> 45:25.900]  There's another completely different topic I'd like to touch upon.
[45:26.000 --> 45:29.700]  There was a massive hurricane that hit New Orleans.
[45:30.060 --> 45:31.920]  In fact, she's visiting us right now.
[45:32.040 --> 45:34.060]  Ida is here in the New York metropolitan area.
[45:34.260 --> 45:35.240]  A little bit of rain.
[45:35.520 --> 45:36.780]  Nothing like what hit New Orleans.
[45:36.960 --> 45:37.780]  They're still blacked out.
[45:39.160 --> 45:40.060]  But here's the thing.
[45:40.200 --> 45:51.200]  We've been talking on this show for literally decades about the need for landlines, the importance of landlines.
[45:51.300 --> 45:51.860]  What are landlines?
[45:52.020 --> 45:53.420]  I think I might have to explain that, actually.
[45:54.120 --> 45:58.260]  Landlines are those phones that have wires connected to them, and they go through the telephone network.
[45:58.400 --> 45:59.640]  You know, telephone poles outside.
[45:59.640 --> 46:00.640]  That's why we call them that.
[46:01.160 --> 46:06.360]  Actually, I think they're owned by the electric company, but they connect to a central office.
[46:06.360 --> 46:08.260]  Every community has a central office.
[46:08.420 --> 46:13.200]  It's a brick building that's owned by the phone company, Verizon in our case.
[46:13.400 --> 46:14.440]  It's kind of mysterious.
[46:14.900 --> 46:16.540]  You don't see a lot of people going in and out.
[46:16.740 --> 46:17.700]  Sometimes they don't have windows.
[46:17.980 --> 46:19.900]  And that's where the switching equipment is.
[46:20.040 --> 46:24.540]  And inside those buildings are massive generators that kick in when there's a power failure.
[46:24.880 --> 46:27.400]  And that's why you never lose the landline.
[46:27.820 --> 46:32.960]  We've been through so many hurricanes out on Long Island where the power has gone out for weeks.
[46:32.960 --> 46:36.660]  And in each of those cases, blizzards too, the phone has always been there.
[46:36.920 --> 46:48.940]  Now, here in New Orleans, we're hearing that not only did the cell towers fail, AT&T, massive failure, but with no power, how do you charge your cell phone?
[46:49.440 --> 46:50.560]  How do you do that?
[46:50.880 --> 47:00.700]  So I was watching local coverage and seeing how the reporters were frustrated because they couldn't reach city officials because the cell network was down, because the phones were dead.
[47:00.700 --> 47:03.680]  There was no way to reach these people to get vital updates.
[47:04.020 --> 47:10.220]  I'm hearing reports of elderly relatives that cannot be reached because they only have a cell phone and the cell phone is dead.
[47:10.320 --> 47:13.020]  And even if it wasn't dead, there's no cell tower to communicate with.
[47:14.000 --> 47:16.100]  All they had to do was keep a landline.
[47:17.000 --> 47:19.860]  All the phone companies have to do is maintain the landlines.
[47:20.400 --> 47:21.320]  Yeah, I know.
[47:21.320 --> 47:23.100]  It's old technology.
[47:23.540 --> 47:37.480]  But if you abandon old technology in favor of new technology, and conversely, if you cling to old technology and ignore new technology, those are both very stupid things to do.
[47:37.720 --> 47:41.360]  And we wind up learning the same lesson over and over and over again.
[47:41.640 --> 47:42.860]  This didn't have to happen.
[47:43.000 --> 47:46.820]  And if you don't want to keep a landline in your house, fine.
[47:46.820 --> 47:54.400]  There should at least be a means for you to access the landline network, such as, oh, I don't know, a payphone?
[47:54.640 --> 47:55.460]  How about those?
[47:55.640 --> 47:57.780]  Keep those maintained.
[47:58.240 --> 47:59.600]  Keep those operational.
[47:59.600 --> 48:02.200]  They do serve a purpose in emergencies.
[48:02.700 --> 48:15.820]  And right now, you know, if there were a prevalence of landlines in New Orleans, I can tell you this, a lot of people around the world and a lot of people in New Orleans would feel a lot better because they'd be able to talk to people in other parts of the world.
[48:18.060 --> 48:23.560]  Anyone else want to speak up on behalf of landlines or drive the nail into the coffin?
[48:23.660 --> 48:24.020]  Go ahead, Rob.
[48:24.760 --> 48:25.560]  Yeah, absolutely.
[48:25.780 --> 48:39.280]  I mean, we spoke on this program, I believe it was last week, about the complete inverse of the situation in Australia, where the telephone company basically kept all the payphones out there but just made them free so you can use them in emergencies.
[48:39.520 --> 48:41.800]  That's now their main purpose.
[48:42.280 --> 48:44.020]  And that makes complete sense.
[48:44.020 --> 48:47.860]  You have this stuff, you have this infrastructure, you know, and it works.
[48:48.260 --> 48:54.800]  And it's, you know, I don't think it's an unreasonable cost to maintain the landline network.
[48:55.380 --> 48:59.240]  I think it's still very useful, especially in situations like that.
[48:59.380 --> 49:03.860]  I grew up on Long Island myself, and I remember those hurricanes in which the power was out, the phone kept working.
[49:05.520 --> 49:08.400]  And, yeah, it stinks to not have that option.
[49:08.560 --> 49:12.840]  You know, if the phone companies don't want to do it, give it to the telephone pioneers of America.
[49:12.880 --> 49:19.080]  I'm sure they've still got a lot of energy and can climb those poles and maintain things and would be happy to do it.
[49:19.160 --> 49:27.720]  And if not them, then a bunch of hackers, anyone who is just realizing the importance of this technology, of this means of communication.
[49:27.720 --> 49:39.080]  It just makes no sense to simply turn that off and rely on something that is much, much less able to stand in an emergency like this.
[49:40.700 --> 49:47.380]  Even fiber optic phone lines, they have a battery connected to the phone line that will die in a few hours.
[49:47.420 --> 49:50.040]  It's not in the central office like the old copper lines.
[49:50.640 --> 49:52.160]  So that's a tremendous advantage.
[49:52.460 --> 49:53.080]  Kyle, go ahead.
[49:53.080 --> 50:04.880]  Well, my point would be basically that the viability of the older network is really judged on a profit model.
[50:05.100 --> 50:08.920]  And I think in emergencies, that's not the issue.
[50:09.140 --> 50:28.220]  There's not a whole lot when it comes to regional and local emergency communications that is sitting around discussing just what price point they will deny people a means to get in touch in an emergency.
[50:28.480 --> 50:47.360]  So for whatever it costs, I just think that if the system isn't used, it should be put in some sort of idle state and reform in some way with some kind of operations that don't necessarily see its viability only as whether it is profitable or not.
[50:47.600 --> 50:50.080]  Because again, in an emergency, that's not the point.
[50:50.200 --> 50:50.720]  It doesn't matter.
[50:50.920 --> 50:56.860]  And we are historically a country with many means of communication, a whole variety, a diverse landscape of it.
[50:56.960 --> 50:57.680]  Let's keep it that way.
[50:58.280 --> 50:58.460]  Yeah.
[50:58.680 --> 51:02.320]  And considering the network is already there, it's not like you have to start from scratch.
[51:02.320 --> 51:04.860]  So this is just... it's foresight.
[51:04.980 --> 51:06.160]  We've been talking about this for so long.
[51:06.240 --> 51:07.300]  I don't know if anybody's listening.
[51:07.440 --> 51:09.800]  But really, it's an important thing.
[51:09.880 --> 51:13.140]  And we're seeing it play out as I think we all knew that we would.
[51:15.660 --> 51:16.560]  All right, boys.
[51:17.660 --> 51:18.440]  This is it.
[51:18.600 --> 51:19.200]  Over the hill.
[51:20.600 --> 51:21.620]  We are out of time.
[51:21.780 --> 51:25.180]  But we're going to continue on Off the Hook Over Time, channel 2600 on YouTube.
[51:25.440 --> 51:27.800]  Write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[51:27.980 --> 51:28.720]  See you next week.
[51:29.000 --> 51:29.480]  Good night.
[51:29.880 --> 51:30.000]  Good night.
[51:32.320 --> 51:32.440]  We are out of time.
[51:32.440 --> 51:35.980]  We don't care where
[51:44.310 --> 51:46.110]  you're from or where you're going.
[51:48.930 --> 51:51.610]  All we know is that you can.
[51:54.710 --> 51:57.430]  You're making all our decisions.
[52:00.270 --> 52:03.290]  We have just one request of you.
[52:06.170 --> 52:09.550]  And while you're thinking things over.
[52:12.070 --> 52:15.170]  Yeah, there's something you just better do.
[52:18.010 --> 52:20.410]  Free the people now.
[52:23.350 --> 52:26.010]  Do it, do it, do it, do it, do it now.
[52:29.550 --> 52:31.870]  Free the people now.
[52:34.920 --> 52:37.520]  Do it, do it, do it, do it, do it now.
[52:41.180 --> 52:43.600]  We're caught with our hands in the air.
[52:43.600 --> 52:46.320]  Don't despair, paranoid, if you were.
[52:46.840 --> 52:49.260]  We could shake you for love when we're scared.
[52:49.800 --> 52:51.960]  So let's shout it alive like a prayer.
[52:52.540 --> 52:54.660]  Free the people now.
[52:57.680 --> 52:59.920]  Do it, do it, do it, do it, do it now.
[53:03.900 --> 53:06.180]  Free the people now.
[53:09.140 --> 53:11.840]  Do it, do it, do it, do it, do it now.
[53:13.980 --> 53:17.780]  We understand your paranoia.
[53:19.910 --> 53:23.810]  But we don't wanna play your game.
[53:25.890 --> 53:29.710]  You think you don't know what you are doing.
[53:31.490 --> 53:35.130]  And 666 says your name.
[53:37.900 --> 53:41.240]  So while you're jerking off each other.
[53:43.080 --> 53:45.540]  You better bear this coming
[53:50.370 --> 53:50.770]  up.
[53:50.990 --> 53:52.410]  You better know it.
[53:55.010 --> 53:57.930]  Or maybe you don't need the sign.
[54:00.450 --> 54:02.670]  Free the people now.
[54:02.670 --> 54:03.090]  No,
[54:19.410 --> 54:22.630]  no, no, no, no, no.
[54:22.930 --> 54:26.330]  Oh, you were caught with your hands in the kill.
[54:26.650 --> 54:29.210]  And you still got a spot on your pills.
[54:29.630 --> 54:32.190]  And you slip and you slide down a hill.
[54:32.190 --> 54:34.970]  On the blood of the people you kill.
[54:35.210 --> 54:37.150]  Stop the killin'.
[54:45.980 --> 54:48.300]  Stop the killin'.
[55:13.400 --> 55:24.700]  Delegate elections are underway, and you are invited to leave a voicemail on 510-993-0320 with your questions and comments for candidates running to represent you on the local station board.
[55:24.940 --> 55:30.000]  We will invite all candidates to respond to your questions and produce an on-air election forum.
[55:30.000 --> 55:35.320]  Visit elections.pacifica.org for more information about the delegate election process.
[55:35.480 --> 55:38.780]  And remember to vote before 1159 p.m.
[55:39.320 --> 55:41.660]  Eastern Time on October 15th.
[00:00.540 --> 00:02.940]  And here we are in YouTube land.
[00:02.940 --> 00:05.120]  We're off the hook over time.
[00:06.300 --> 00:07.220]  Did we all make it?
[00:07.300 --> 00:08.060]  Yeah, it looks like we're all here.
[00:08.280 --> 00:08.680]  Great.
[00:09.140 --> 00:09.860]  Welcome, everybody.
[00:10.140 --> 00:13.320]  Our phone number 802-321-4225.
[00:13.400 --> 00:15.560]  If you wish to join the conversation.
[00:15.720 --> 00:17.520]  And Gila, it seems like you want to do that right away.
[00:17.620 --> 00:17.860]  Go ahead.
[00:18.640 --> 00:24.300]  Well, yes, actually, there is a thought I had percolating from the end of the discussion.
[00:24.320 --> 00:26.660]  And sorry, we're just air checking YouTube.
[00:27.040 --> 00:27.800]  We're running on YouTube.
[00:27.900 --> 00:29.620]  I'm hearing the echo and it's a little...
[00:30.560 --> 00:41.100]  Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that what Kyle was saying about the infrastructure and the system of the phone lines.
[00:42.160 --> 00:43.300]  And also, it's true.
[00:43.440 --> 00:51.200]  I think if they can't... if the companies can't figure out a way to upscale it, make it more of a revenue generator, they're not going to want to be interested in it.
[00:51.280 --> 00:57.580]  And I think it's almost going to need to become like... hipsters are going to need to rescue landlines in the same way that they rescued vinyl.
[00:59.800 --> 01:00.160]  Wow.
[01:00.160 --> 01:00.960]  I like that.
[01:01.080 --> 01:01.560]  I like that.
[01:01.680 --> 01:06.560]  If it could be the same energy behind that, then we have nothing to worry about.
[01:07.240 --> 01:07.600]  Exactly.
[01:07.780 --> 01:11.980]  Like, if you can get... you know, it's become such a status symbol.
[01:12.700 --> 01:21.800]  And I think that if we can, you know, almost bring back the same kind of like fancy... not fancy, but fun, like landline phones.
[01:21.920 --> 01:28.680]  Like, you remember when in the 80s when they had like those see-through things and you could see all the wires and they were just the coolest thing that existed?
[01:28.960 --> 01:32.380]  And the phone plane that Rob painted in his phone series?
[01:32.580 --> 01:32.880]  Oh, yeah.
[01:33.160 --> 01:33.800]  That was Canadian.
[01:33.800 --> 01:39.940]  You know, if we can make it hip, like, it needs to become the new vinyl.
[01:40.080 --> 01:49.380]  But the other thing it reminded me of was years ago, my dad, who was a firm believer in landlines, he had to call the cable company because the cable was out.
[01:49.540 --> 01:50.640]  No cable, no internet.
[01:51.220 --> 01:54.400]  And he called and he said, the cable and the internet are out.
[01:55.000 --> 01:56.800]  And they said, thank you for letting us know.
[01:57.100 --> 02:01.880]  Are you interested in upgrading to the triple play so you can have your phone service with us, too?
[02:02.240 --> 02:05.580]  And my dad said, you know who I'm calling you right now?
[02:06.320 --> 02:09.740]  I wouldn't be able to do that if I transferred my phone service to you.
[02:09.880 --> 02:13.020]  And the guy on the other end was like, oh, I guess you're right.
[02:13.460 --> 02:16.160]  Touche is the right word to use, I think, in a situation like that.
[02:16.440 --> 02:17.340]  It was absolutely brilliant.
[02:24.620 --> 02:26.100]  Let's take our first phone call.
[02:26.220 --> 02:27.580]  Good evening, you're on Off the Hook Overtime.
[02:28.740 --> 02:29.780]  Hi, is it me?
[02:31.180 --> 02:31.680]  That's what?
[02:31.980 --> 02:32.940]  Yes, you're on the air.
[02:34.100 --> 02:40.860]  Okay, before I get to my main point, what was the title of the John Lennon song that you played to close out the show tonight?
[02:41.840 --> 02:47.800]  That was called Free the People, Bring on the Lucy, I believe.
[02:48.100 --> 02:51.020]  I don't know what that title means, but that's what it's called, Bring on the Lucy.
[02:51.720 --> 02:54.380]  It's from the Mind Games LP.
[02:55.380 --> 02:56.180]  Oh, okay.
[02:56.300 --> 02:56.660]  Or CD.
[02:56.820 --> 02:58.260]  Okay, nice to hear that.
[02:58.600 --> 03:06.480]  About a month ago, I was browsing through my Google search results, and I don't remember now what the topic was.
[03:06.480 --> 03:15.400]  I was looking up at the time, but one of the sites that was high up on my list was one of Robert Steele's websites.
[03:15.400 --> 03:22.080]  And at first, I was very enthusiastic, because I remember seeing him speak at the HOPE conference.
[03:22.780 --> 03:37.500]  And I was very excited, because he had about 200 book reviews posted on this website, and all various non-fiction titles, all different categories, books about computers and history and science.
[03:37.500 --> 03:42.280]  And I thought, this is a great resource, really great that I found it.
[03:42.420 --> 04:04.580]  And then I was really shocked to discover, he had posted a book review by a guy named David Icke, who's this really lunatic conspiracy theorist, who believes that there's a species of reptiles roaming the earth, disguised as humans that are plotting to overthrow government.
[04:04.580 --> 04:05.440]  Yeah, lizard people.
[04:06.860 --> 04:07.760]  Right, right.
[04:07.880 --> 04:09.620]  And I was like, my heart sank.
[04:09.640 --> 04:12.860]  And I thought, God, what is wrong with Robert Steele?
[04:13.100 --> 04:16.080]  He's saying this is a brilliant, insightful book?
[04:16.240 --> 04:18.360]  I mean, doesn't he know that this guy's a lunatic?
[04:18.520 --> 04:20.300]  And his last name is literally Icky?
[04:21.280 --> 04:22.040]  Right, right.
[04:22.040 --> 04:23.100]  I mean, it's right there.
[04:23.400 --> 04:24.880]  It was right there in front of him.
[04:24.880 --> 04:27.380]  But it's so, it's very sad.
[04:27.560 --> 04:31.640]  I mean, I could really empathize with what you guys were saying tonight.
[04:32.220 --> 04:41.880]  When you discover that somebody that you admire, you have great reverence for, and I could tell by the way you guys were speaking, you really, you liked this guy, you respected him.
[04:41.880 --> 04:47.260]  And I remember attending that keynote he gave, very insightful and impressive.
[04:47.260 --> 04:50.580]  And you wonder, how does a guy, a person go wrong?
[04:50.580 --> 05:02.400]  I mean, so terribly wrong and, and start peddling this nonsense and very dangerous nonsense, you know, about COVID and that Trump is going to be reinstated.
[05:02.460 --> 05:04.860]  And it's very demoralizing.
[05:04.860 --> 05:10.080]  We left out, we left out one that there is a child enslavement colony on Mars.
[05:11.860 --> 05:14.360]  That's, that's, seriously, that's one of the things that he was talking about.
[05:14.520 --> 05:18.240]  Let me just ask you, you said you were at the first Hope keynote?
[05:19.640 --> 05:20.980]  I was, I was indeed.
[05:21.220 --> 05:27.340]  Yeah, I was at the first two, actually, I was at the one where he spoke, and then the one after that with Jello Biafra.
[05:27.340 --> 05:33.380]  Um, so, uh, hopefully Jello Biafra hasn't gone off the, off the deep end.
[05:33.500 --> 05:37.460]  I think he still has his, uh, he's still pretty sane, I suppose.
[05:37.880 --> 05:46.160]  Yeah, I mean, Jello Biafra has been known to say some wacky things, but, but compared to, uh, the, the sorts of things that Robert Steele is embracing, he's Winston Churchill.
[05:46.160 --> 05:48.580]  You know, it's, uh, there's just no comparison.
[05:48.700 --> 05:55.140]  But yeah, you know, as, as you said, we, we respected him, we liked him, but not what he became, not, not what he turned into.
[05:55.420 --> 06:01.560]  And you'll, you'll see the period where we just, we could not accept his, his talks anymore.
[06:01.560 --> 06:03.400]  We could not be a part of that.
[06:03.500 --> 06:10.060]  It just, he always had, um, interesting theories and, and, uh, all kinds of, uh, wacky ways of expressing himself.
[06:10.060 --> 06:16.520]  As, as, as you may recall, he used to do the all night, ask me anything, uh, the spy one-on-one thing at, at the hope conferences.
[06:17.060 --> 06:27.260]  Um, and there was all sorts of, uh, of things he would, he would talk about, but it just got to the point where he was embracing all sorts of insane conspiracy theories.
[06:27.420 --> 06:31.580]  And, you know, it's, it's a, it's a valid question in our community.
[06:31.860 --> 06:34.660]  How do we keep people from getting sucked into that world?
[06:34.920 --> 06:38.360]  Hackers, as a rule, are open to being wrong.
[06:38.360 --> 06:43.100]  They're open to all sorts of different perspectives, but people can take advantage of that.
[06:43.260 --> 06:50.900]  People can, can, um, uh, instill all kinds of, of, uh, uh, craziness and make it seem like it has legitimacy.
[06:51.360 --> 06:56.200]  And then before you know it, there's people walking around saying that there's lizard people, you know, running the government.
[06:56.420 --> 06:56.560]  Yeah.
[06:57.160 --> 06:58.140]  Uh, I don't know.
[06:58.280 --> 06:59.260]  How do we do that?
[06:59.360 --> 07:00.160]  How do we fix this?
[07:00.700 --> 07:06.660]  Well, I, I think maybe direct people towards, uh, some, uh, reputable fact-checking sites.
[07:06.660 --> 07:08.020]  I mean, that's one step.
[07:08.360 --> 07:11.740]  Uh, and also try to encourage people to get vaccinated.
[07:12.220 --> 07:14.340]  Uh, it's a two-pronged approach.
[07:14.340 --> 07:17.960]  I think that's, we do have to focus on getting more people vaccinated.
[07:18.340 --> 07:28.220]  Uh, I just want to say in closing, uh, as far as like people that you admire that, uh, spew really odious, reprehensible views later in life.
[07:28.220 --> 07:39.460]  I have to call out on the carpet, Eric Clapton and Van Morrison, two of my favorite rock musicians, who have, uh, released a bunch of anti-lockdown songs.
[07:39.460 --> 07:51.960]  And I really love what these guys did in the 60s, but I really hate what they've become because they just sound like right-wing idiots denouncing lockdowns as government repression.
[07:51.960 --> 07:57.120]  And I really, I think for two great musicians, they're really tarnishing their legacies.
[07:57.340 --> 07:59.220]  Well, let me, let me ask you this.
[07:59.340 --> 08:00.900]  I mean, I'm anti-lockdown too.
[08:01.000 --> 08:05.020]  I don't want a lockdown, but, uh, you know, I understand it might be the only way out of something.
[08:05.020 --> 08:11.100]  Are they anti-lockdown and anti-vaccine or is it just, they don't want to be cooped up inside and they want to go back on tour?
[08:11.740 --> 08:14.020]  Well, they're, they're anti-mask too.
[08:14.160 --> 08:21.740]  I mean, Clapton more that, you know, he's expressing, uh, great skepticism about the vaccines.
[08:22.120 --> 08:35.000]  And, uh, I mean, he had a bad experience with, uh, with AstraZeneca, but I mean, just if you, if you Google them, you'll just see that like Van Morrison, his last album has like six anti-lockdowns.
[08:35.680 --> 08:43.220]  The whole album is anti-lockdown and they're just talking about the government, that it's a form of brutal government repression.
[08:43.420 --> 08:45.080]  And that's really anti-Trump songs.
[08:45.280 --> 08:48.600]  I was expecting a whole flurry of anti-Trump songs over the last four years.
[08:49.000 --> 08:51.460]  Instead, we're getting a bunch of, of anti-lockdown songs.
[08:51.740 --> 08:53.580]  I mean, come on, musicians, get it together.
[08:53.920 --> 08:54.560]  It's very disheartening.
[08:55.320 --> 08:56.240]  It really is.
[08:56.340 --> 09:02.320]  But, uh, I'm, I'm hoping things get better and, um, um, just keep up the great work, what you're doing.
[09:02.320 --> 09:05.820]  You guys are fantastic and I love tuning into you every week.
[09:05.840 --> 09:06.360]  Thank you so much.
[09:06.440 --> 09:07.120]  And thanks for the support.
[09:07.360 --> 09:08.840]  I think Alex has something to say.
[09:09.020 --> 09:09.460]  Go ahead, Alex.
[09:10.680 --> 09:11.200]  Yeah, sure.
[09:11.240 --> 09:15.100]  I've got a few things to say in response to the, the caller and I, and thank you for the call.
[09:15.200 --> 09:15.960]  I think it was excellent.
[09:16.140 --> 09:29.300]  I want to touch on every, every single one of the people that he mentioned, uh, very briefly with respect to Eric Clapton, funny story, uh, about him is that one of my mentors, uh, somebody who really took me under his wing as a more senior lawyer to me,
[09:29.900 --> 09:38.580]  uh, actually found his wife while she was Eric Clapton's girlfriend and he stole her away from Eric Clapton and married her.
[09:38.780 --> 09:42.080]  So screw you, Eric Clapton and your anti-lockdown song.
[09:42.180 --> 09:42.440]  Wait a minute.
[09:42.680 --> 09:48.360]  Shouldn't Eric Clapton be the one saying screw you if, if he stole, uh, you know, whatever.
[09:48.360 --> 09:48.680]  Okay.
[09:48.880 --> 09:52.300]  Well, you know, look, look, you know, it's water under the bridge at this point, I think.
[09:52.460 --> 10:11.100]  But, um, insofar as I know, I, I, I think there may still be some acrimony, but, uh, going back to the caller's point, these anti-lockdown songs and your points to Emmanuel, um, there are obviously a lot on the other side and I would direct the caller to check out Billy Bragg and some of his recent songs,
[10:11.660 --> 10:15.780]  uh, about the need to stay inside, which is, you know, a pro lockdown song.
[10:16.040 --> 10:16.160]  Okay.
[10:16.380 --> 10:17.080]  I didn't know about this.
[10:17.220 --> 10:17.760]  Billy Bragg.
[10:17.760 --> 10:19.400]  Yeah, it is.
[10:19.420 --> 10:27.000]  He had some, some, it was a great song that came out last year, I think last May or June about, um, not being able to go visit his mother.
[10:27.700 --> 10:35.300]  And, you know, I'm sorry I can't be there on Mother's Day because I don't want to bring that thing in that, you know, we don't really want to bring in.
[10:35.460 --> 10:35.680]  Right.
[10:35.700 --> 10:37.880]  And the, the lyrics of it are really great.
[10:38.020 --> 10:40.780]  They're really moving, especially when you go and think back at that time.
[10:41.020 --> 10:44.580]  Uh, maybe, maybe we can end with that, uh, you know.
[10:44.580 --> 10:52.160]  Yeah, you know, if people can share with us any, uh, pertinent music that's coming out about any of this, please send it to OTH at 2600.com.
[10:52.300 --> 10:53.480]  We have a New York City radio station.
[10:53.620 --> 10:55.060]  We'd be happy to, to play some of this.
[10:55.060 --> 11:07.560]  Yeah, and, uh, maybe we should even have something like a running playlist for, uh, for off the hook, um, on, on something, but in any event, uh, so the, the next person that he mentioned was, uh, was David Ick.
[11:07.800 --> 11:11.800]  You know, I think we're calling him Icky or, uh, I, or some people call him David Icke.
[11:11.900 --> 11:14.920]  It's, uh, his last name is spelled I-C-K-E.
[11:15.300 --> 11:22.740]  So back when I was a student at Oxford, David Ick was invited to speak at the Oxford Union.
[11:23.340 --> 11:24.920]  And, you know, this is a while ago.
[11:25.080 --> 11:30.360]  It was probably about, uh, I don't know, 16, no, not 16, uh, 14 years ago or so.
[11:30.940 --> 11:35.000]  And, um, I mean, we're having the same debates then that we were now.
[11:35.160 --> 11:43.920]  I mean, people did not want David Icke to show up and, and espouse his, uh, crazy theories with respect to lizard people.
[11:44.240 --> 11:50.840]  And, uh, I believe that there was, uh, a major issue about his views on the Holocaust as well.
[11:51.500 --> 11:55.680]  And, um, you know, so ultimately I do believe he came.
[11:55.900 --> 12:10.680]  I don't think it was really well attended, but, um, you know, it did give this guy a lot of credence because you can go and look him up now and see that he went and spoke, uh, at Oxford University and was invited by the Oxford Union and gave a talk there.
[12:10.680 --> 12:15.240]  So, you know, giving a platform to these people can on, on the one hand, legitimize them.
[12:15.480 --> 12:19.960]  And then the caller also mentioned going back in Hope history, Jello Biafra.
[12:20.480 --> 12:28.360]  Well, and I was thinking about him during the show too, uh, cause Jello Biafra, you know, the lead singer of Dead Kennedys when he came and gave the Hope, uh, keynote.
[12:28.360 --> 12:30.780]  And then he wound up actually coming to my law school.
[12:30.940 --> 12:36.600]  I don't even think he was invited, but he showed up and talked to people until about two o'clock in the morning.
[12:36.600 --> 12:45.740]  But one of the main themes, uh, that Jello Biafra had said at, at numerous homes was that, you know, if we can't trust the media, we can't trust their independence.
[12:46.000 --> 12:47.420]  Well, now then we need to become the media.
[12:47.540 --> 12:51.180]  That was always one of his principles was that individuals need to become the media.
[12:51.360 --> 12:54.980]  And this was the time of, you'll remember Emmanuel, indie media, right?
[12:55.800 --> 13:05.380]  And, um, so this notion of becoming the media, well, perhaps we are the media now when we have these massive platforms, we can amass these great followings.
[13:05.380 --> 13:15.260]  We can have people, uh, legitimize our online identity with something like a blue checkmark that then amplifies our voice and our reach.
[13:15.460 --> 13:21.180]  And if we are the media now, then we have the responsibilities of the media as well.
[13:21.240 --> 13:25.200]  And that includes a responsibility to report the facts and to be accurate.
[13:25.480 --> 13:29.440]  Yeah, but Alex, just on that point, I mean, um, that's nothing new.
[13:29.540 --> 13:30.320]  We have been the media.
[13:30.460 --> 13:31.280]  We're on a radio station.
[13:31.380 --> 13:32.240]  We publish a magazine.
[13:32.240 --> 13:39.120]  Um, and when Jell-O says, um, uh, become the media, that's all fine and good for people who are qualified to do so.
[13:39.220 --> 13:56.380]  But when, when you say that, uh, and people hear it who have absolutely no qualification whatsoever, and are going to spread, uh, all sorts of false information, I don't know if become the media is the right message anymore because they're, they're, they're not legitimate media and not everyone has that ability.
[13:56.980 --> 14:05.360]  Oh, I think if you are the media, if you have that kind of, uh, influence on people, if you have that kind of following, obviously, then you have a greater form of responsibility.
[14:05.880 --> 14:12.580]  And maybe this is something that, you know, right now it's morally imposed and, and there's really no consequence to it at all.
[14:12.700 --> 14:22.180]  But perhaps, you know, this is something that will be legally imposed in the future as well as some kind of responsibility to investigate and report only facts.
[14:22.520 --> 14:30.600]  If, if we saw CNN, uh, reports of lizard people running the world and whatnot, I mean, we wouldn't stand for it.
[14:30.720 --> 14:34.600]  You know, it would be obviously false nonsense being reported as news, but you're right.
[14:34.720 --> 14:49.060]  If we are the media right now, maybe that's not such a great thing because we're not all a populace of trained journalists, but if we have that power, we have to have, uh, I think a corollary responsibility to act like the media does as well.
[14:49.620 --> 14:54.980]  And, um, and I just don't see those, those ethical duties matching up right now.
[14:55.260 --> 14:55.820]  Yeah.
[14:55.860 --> 15:15.480]  And I think it's a responsibility really for, um, actual journalists to find contributors and citizen reporters and verify the kinds of things that they're saying and help be, um, less, uh, um, have lower bars, but still verify as sort of gate, gate, gate,
[15:15.580 --> 15:18.580]  gate keepers to sort of mainstream channels.
[15:18.980 --> 15:29.640]  Uh, and I think you're seeing that a lot more, especially with the amount of like people that are brought in to, um, to speak with teleconferencing and, and video.
[15:29.640 --> 15:50.980]  It's been, um, very prevalent of course with distancing and stuff in the last year, but even beyond that, I mean, mainstream entities are, are working and, uh, and active on the ground, but they also, um, are able to talk to people who are familiar as like community organizers or people that are active on the scene,
[15:50.980 --> 15:54.100]  um, and allowing them to be sort of guest contributors.
[15:54.340 --> 16:06.540]  So I think that in that way, um, mainstream institutions are, are becoming a little bit more accessible to the sort of, we are the media crowd in, in that we all have the tools of the media.
[16:06.540 --> 16:22.320]  We're not necessarily as qualified, but when I hear that phrase, I'm, I'm really more, um, uh, thinking of it as, uh, we have the capability of reporting all of us do and could at any one point, if it's a shooting or a priest police brutality or something,
[16:22.460 --> 16:31.020]  it's on us because oftentimes there just isn't a reporter or someone there that can provide that in a, in an authoritative way.
[16:31.020 --> 16:43.120]  But, you know, I think fixing this is as challenging as fixing the cult behavior that people are, are being drawn to because, you know, as, as soon as you, you say, this is valid media, this is legitimate.
[16:43.500 --> 16:45.040]  Well, someone else is going to pop up.
[16:45.140 --> 16:45.980]  There'll be a Fox news.
[16:46.140 --> 16:48.080]  And if there isn't a Fox news, then there'll be a news max.
[16:48.160 --> 16:49.840]  And if that doesn't work, there's going to be something else.
[16:50.320 --> 16:58.580]  There's always going to be in this day and age, uh, a means for people to start a media organization that peddles lies and it's, it's nothing new.
[16:58.580 --> 17:11.560]  You know, this has been going on for, for as long as media existed as, as arms of, uh, propaganda for the governments or, or corporations or, or political parties, all sorts of, of, of, of ways that you can be lied to.
[17:12.080 --> 17:16.360]  Uh, I'm sorry, uh, caller, did you have any other points you wanted to bring up before we move on to somebody else?
[17:17.040 --> 17:17.600]  No, no.
[17:17.840 --> 17:21.740]  Uh, just, uh, thank you very much for a very stimulating, uh, thoughtful discussion.
[17:21.960 --> 17:22.600]  Have a great night.
[17:22.820 --> 17:23.140]  Thank you.
[17:23.440 --> 17:23.980]  Take care.
[17:25.120 --> 17:26.720]  And, uh, please, uh, keep listening.
[17:26.720 --> 17:31.800]  All right, front number 802-321-4225, 802-321-HACK.
[17:32.240 --> 17:34.080]  That is a great point.
[17:34.320 --> 17:41.800]  Um, historically, I think the, the first printing press was used in many ways to, um, find witches and, you know...
[17:41.800 --> 17:42.100]  Lizard people.
[17:42.280 --> 17:43.880]  Yeah, declare the, the...
[17:43.880 --> 17:45.480]  It always comes back to the lizard people.
[17:45.500 --> 17:54.840]  The lizard sorcery of the time was, was used in the first, um, uh, uh, affordable printing, um, mechanisms when they were becoming prevalent.
[17:54.840 --> 17:56.840]  Um, it wasn't just printing Bibles.
[17:57.000 --> 18:05.880]  People were using it for all kinds of, um, specific, uh, ends that may or may not actually be as virtuous as they might reveal themselves.
[18:06.000 --> 18:17.660]  I mean, you've seen this a lot with, like, online newspapers and, uh, um, that seem like they have a storied reputation, but they just haven't existed long enough to kind of match their look.
[18:17.820 --> 18:22.260]  There's a lot of those kinds of fake kind of, just, uh, clone news sites.
[18:22.400 --> 18:23.680]  I like to think of them as clones.
[18:23.820 --> 18:29.760]  And then also, uh, like you said, clone networks of, like, oh, we're not, we're not as left as Fox.
[18:29.940 --> 18:34.080]  We're going to be even more, um, uh, to one side and, and, and, et cetera, et cetera.
[18:34.280 --> 18:37.280]  So that, that is because the barrier and the cost is so low.
[18:37.640 --> 18:41.240]  I believe if I know my area codes, we have a call from Missouri on the phone.
[18:41.680 --> 18:42.100]  Do we?
[18:43.460 --> 18:43.820]  Yeah.
[18:44.580 --> 18:45.560]  This is Missouri on the phone.
[18:45.640 --> 18:45.820]  Okay.
[18:46.020 --> 18:46.340]  Go ahead.
[18:46.600 --> 18:46.760]  Yeah.
[18:47.060 --> 18:48.280]  This is Phil from Missouri.
[18:48.500 --> 18:49.040]  How are you doing?
[18:49.240 --> 18:49.380]  Good.
[18:49.460 --> 18:49.800]  How are you doing?
[18:50.720 --> 18:51.240]  I'm okay.
[18:52.100 --> 18:55.440]  Um, about the conspiracy stuff, it doesn't matter what you tell them.
[18:55.760 --> 18:59.300]  They're just going to make up a conspiracy to come for that conspiracy.
[18:59.600 --> 19:02.060]  They're just going to keep pushing the goalposts back.
[19:03.000 --> 19:03.400]  Yeah.
[19:03.540 --> 19:05.340]  That's why the truth is not the answer.
[19:05.460 --> 19:07.280]  The truth is not going to set anyone free.
[19:07.440 --> 19:08.420]  It's not going to convince them.
[19:08.560 --> 19:09.960]  They're always going to have something else.
[19:10.440 --> 19:12.460]  So, uh, we have to find another means.
[19:13.320 --> 19:17.740]  Well, in Australia, um, they have a, they have a show called Media Watch, right?
[19:18.660 --> 19:22.180]  So they'll review the, uh, week's news or daily or something like that.
[19:22.280 --> 19:30.260]  I don't know how to do it, but they'll go through and, um, like, um, they, uh, ABC, I think, in Australia, sort of like, or Fox News.
[19:31.260 --> 19:33.060]  I, I think they're, they're a bit better than that.
[19:33.140 --> 19:35.200]  I think they're, they're more mainstream than, than Fox News.
[19:35.840 --> 19:36.120]  Yeah.
[19:36.200 --> 19:37.680]  They're owned by the same company, I think.
[19:37.740 --> 19:40.860]  Well, you know, they, they do it every, they do it every week or every day and whatnot.
[19:41.320 --> 19:42.760]  And they call them out on stuff.
[19:42.920 --> 19:46.120]  And they've been, uh, calling out reality shows with their ads and stuff like that.
[19:46.220 --> 19:47.000]  Like, they'll sneak in.
[19:47.560 --> 19:50.480]  Like, um, they have a bachelorette down there, too.
[19:51.020 --> 19:51.880]  So, um...
[19:51.880 --> 19:53.260]  There's a bachelorette everywhere.
[19:54.180 --> 19:54.540]  Yeah.
[20:00.260 --> 20:06.860]  So, they set up a date with the truck and they had the, the guy actually talk about the truck when they were interviewing before the date.
[20:07.940 --> 20:08.960]  Uh, things like that.
[20:09.080 --> 20:16.720]  But, you know, it, it, sometimes it just, I don't know if you ever, go on Facebook, on Fox News Facebook page.
[20:18.040 --> 20:24.140]  Earlier today, they were talking about, oh, Biden left all this equipment behind and everything else and getting everybody riled up on that, right?
[20:24.420 --> 20:24.700]  Mm-hmm.
[20:24.980 --> 20:30.240]  Well, just like a couple hours ago, they also put up a story saying, well, the terrorists are mad.
[20:30.260 --> 20:31.780]  Because none of the equipment is working.
[20:32.560 --> 20:34.100]  And they got people riled up on that.
[20:34.360 --> 20:37.880]  So, they're riling them up against two different sides of the same story.
[20:38.160 --> 20:40.780]  And it's just like your namesake, right?
[20:41.280 --> 20:48.940]  Where, uh, in 1984, where they were throwing cabbage at the, at the movie screen because, um, Manuel Goldstein is up there, right?
[20:49.140 --> 20:49.880]  Yeah, the two-minute hate.
[20:50.120 --> 20:51.320]  It's exactly like it.
[20:51.360 --> 20:52.680]  I mean, it's really freaky.
[20:53.040 --> 20:54.900]  The two-minute hate, my favorite part of the day.
[20:58.020 --> 21:01.580]  Um, but, you know, I, I don't know.
[21:01.600 --> 21:06.140]  Um, have you heard about, um, the, uh, Twitch blackout tomorrow?
[21:06.820 --> 21:08.900]  Uh, no, I don't know anything about that.
[21:09.680 --> 21:12.940]  Okay, they have something going on when they're streaming.
[21:12.940 --> 21:21.940]  They have these, like, uh, hate raids where a bunch of bots go on to their, when they're streaming into their chat room and start streaming, like, racist stuff and stuff like that.
[21:22.120 --> 21:22.540]  Okay.
[21:22.540 --> 21:29.660]  So, tomorrow, everybody on Twitch who's streaming, who's, who's been getting this, they're gonna just shut down for the day.
[21:29.860 --> 21:31.600]  They're boycotting Twitch for a day.
[21:31.800 --> 21:34.380]  Cause, Twitch takes half the revenue they get.
[21:35.100 --> 21:38.540]  Like, if you donate to them, like, a dollar, they get 50 cent in front of them and whatnot.
[21:39.220 --> 21:40.280]  And they add revenue.
[21:40.280 --> 21:43.040]  Um, so, they just decided they just had enough.
[21:43.280 --> 21:53.940]  If, uh, Twitch isn't gonna stop anything like this, um, they'll just, um, stop broadcasting for a day and just see if it hurts Twitch's bottom, bottom line or whatnot.
[21:55.120 --> 21:55.520]  Okay.
[21:55.860 --> 21:57.360]  Well, that's, I don't use Twitch.
[21:57.560 --> 21:59.520]  I, I, I'm not even sure what Twitch is, to be honest.
[21:59.840 --> 22:00.740]  We did stream parts of the...
[22:00.740 --> 22:02.440]  Well, it's a, it's like YouTube for gaming.
[22:02.900 --> 22:03.220]  Okay.
[22:03.420 --> 22:04.460]  That's probably why I don't know.
[22:04.640 --> 22:06.120]  Yeah, the conference was on Twitch for a little bit.
[22:06.120 --> 22:07.940]  Okay, the conference wasn't a game.
[22:07.940 --> 22:10.920]  We had some of the streams, I believe, syndicated.
[22:11.180 --> 22:12.000]  We tried it out.
[22:12.140 --> 22:16.140]  We're not as, um, as, uh, uh, adept at using it.
[22:16.260 --> 22:17.840]  It was, uh, an experiment.
[22:18.420 --> 22:18.780]  Got it.
[22:19.180 --> 22:19.240]  Interesting.
[22:19.240 --> 22:21.160]  Yeah, OBS is real easy to use with that.
[22:21.360 --> 22:22.920]  Yeah, shout out to OBS, man.
[22:23.020 --> 22:23.940]  That is great software.
[22:24.200 --> 22:25.440]  We've, we've had a lot of fun with that.
[22:25.560 --> 22:27.680]  And I know a lot of people, it saved the day for them.
[22:27.880 --> 22:29.780]  Yes, that's, that's, uh, I, I do know that much.
[22:29.860 --> 22:32.720]  The, like, quick setup for it is crazy, crazy good.
[22:32.880 --> 22:33.820]  Can't say enough about it.
[22:34.160 --> 22:35.420]  I'm sure others feel the same way.
[22:36.180 --> 22:37.660]  Any other, uh, thoughts?
[22:37.940 --> 22:38.200]  Caller?
[22:39.180 --> 22:42.420]  Well, um, you ever, uh, seen Barbasium on YouTube?
[22:42.460 --> 22:44.400]  It's like a science channel.
[22:44.980 --> 22:46.680]  I have, I don't spend a lot of time on YouTube.
[22:46.880 --> 22:48.240]  And I certainly don't spend time on Facebook.
[22:48.440 --> 22:50.160]  So, uh, a lot of things I don't know.
[22:51.060 --> 23:00.240]  Well, anyway, um, they were, he was talking about, um, I think it was yesterday when he put it out, that, um, cosmic rays can cause a bit flip on a chip.
[23:01.020 --> 23:01.420]  Yes.
[23:01.420 --> 23:08.500]  And, uh, it actually affected, uh, um, an election in Europe, like, back in 96 or something like that?
[23:09.880 --> 23:19.220]  Um, because it wasn't, it wasn't, um, the Silicon they were using, something weird about it and, that they used to, um, put the chip in itself, right?
[23:20.140 --> 23:27.260]  The, uh, um, a cosmic ray, like, flip it, flip a bit and caused, uh, 4,000 votes to go one way or another.
[23:27.680 --> 23:36.340]  And I was just thinking, I wonder how long it would take for, you know, the Fox News crowd to pick up on that and, and start a conspiracy with that, with the election.
[23:36.340 --> 23:41.440]  Well, it does sound like a conspiracy that, uh, you know, a bit flip because of cosmic rays.
[23:41.760 --> 23:44.400]  It just has that sound to it, but it happens to be scientifically true.
[23:45.520 --> 23:45.720]  Yeah.
[23:46.580 --> 23:55.140]  Yeah, there, there, there's ways of building in, um, mechanisms to prevent, uh, random, like, bit rot and stuff like that happening.
[23:55.460 --> 23:55.780]  Yeah.
[23:56.060 --> 23:58.740]  But it's definitely a, a valid consideration.
[24:01.000 --> 24:02.180]  All right, listen, thanks for your call.
[24:02.300 --> 24:05.900]  We're gonna, we're gonna, uh, try and take some more calls and also try to fix some technical problems.
[24:05.900 --> 24:06.820]  No, don't, don't apologize.
[24:07.120 --> 24:09.080]  It's, it's, it's great hearing from you and, uh, keep listening.
[24:09.940 --> 24:10.260]  Okay.
[24:10.620 --> 24:11.120]  You have a good day.
[24:11.340 --> 24:11.680]  Take care.
[24:11.860 --> 24:12.020]  Bye.
[24:12.020 --> 24:19.240]  Now, I understand, I understand our levels are, we can talk about this because we're not on the radio, so it's not, it's not unprofessional, even though we're not professional there either.
[24:19.700 --> 24:21.700]  Uh, we have low audio on YouTube.
[24:21.700 --> 24:22.700]  Is that correct, Rob?
[24:23.520 --> 24:28.000]  Yeah, we're, um, it's, it's understandable if you peg the volume all the way up, but it's, it's on the low side.
[24:28.180 --> 24:29.000]  It's lower than we want.
[24:29.060 --> 24:32.020]  We have everything turned up and that's, um, should we just talk louder?
[24:32.300 --> 24:32.820]  We could do that.
[24:33.240 --> 24:34.940]  Um, I don't know what else we can, we can try.
[24:34.940 --> 24:36.320]  Oh, Kyle's tearing his hair out here.
[24:36.620 --> 24:40.760]  I mean, I have a couple, a couple of listeners have pinged us to let us know.
[24:41.080 --> 24:41.960]  And, uh, thank you.
[24:42.100 --> 24:42.580]  Thank you there.
[24:42.840 --> 24:51.040]  Um, we're always, we always appreciate your, your emails, your messages, your tweets, um, to let us know when stuff like this is going on or just to let us know what's on your mind.
[24:51.060 --> 24:56.920]  We also have the ability to have the archive be of, uh, a full volume because I see the levels look good on our end.
[24:57.040 --> 25:04.460]  So we can always, uh, maybe not on YouTube, but on the 2600.com archive where we also keep an archive of this.
[25:04.460 --> 25:05.680]  Did you find anything, Kyle?
[25:07.600 --> 25:08.040]  Yes.
[25:08.340 --> 25:09.500]  Wait, you found a solution?
[25:10.640 --> 25:11.080]  Okay.
[25:11.320 --> 25:14.800]  Kyle's walking back to his microphone now, which is about a half mile away from mine.
[25:15.140 --> 25:17.540]  When he gets there, he'll tell us what he found.
[25:17.900 --> 25:23.860]  Um, the input volume is a little bit lower because of some other projects we were working on that were sound related.
[25:23.860 --> 25:24.900]  Oh, wow.
[25:25.160 --> 25:25.480]  Okay.
[25:25.660 --> 25:29.040]  We do other things during the week and sometimes that messes up these things.
[25:29.180 --> 25:30.120]  How does it sound now, Rob?
[25:30.920 --> 25:32.600]  I think it's sounding, it's sounding better now.
[25:32.800 --> 25:33.280]  It sounds better.
[25:33.380 --> 25:33.460]  Okay.
[25:33.500 --> 25:39.620]  That's going to be, uh, problematic because now, uh, uh, it's going to be half low and half high.
[25:39.640 --> 25:41.100]  Uh, but I guess we'll just have to live with it.
[25:41.180 --> 25:42.060]  You know, it's one of these things.
[25:42.540 --> 25:43.320]  It's one of these things.
[25:43.360 --> 25:47.260]  We'll be lucky if the roof doesn't cave in because Ida is pouring rain on us right now.
[25:47.260 --> 25:49.580]  Are you getting rain in Queens, Rob?
[25:50.980 --> 25:56.620]  We've been getting a little bit of rain and, uh, some heavy winds, but, uh, nothing, nothing, uh, nothing worrisome.
[25:56.800 --> 25:57.440]  Au contraire.
[25:57.580 --> 26:00.040]  There was a huge thunderclap in the middle of the show.
[26:00.220 --> 26:00.760]  There was.
[26:00.840 --> 26:01.280]  That was fun.
[26:01.400 --> 26:01.600]  Wow.
[26:01.600 --> 26:02.480]  We heard it through headphones.
[26:02.500 --> 26:02.700]  You got thunder.
[26:02.880 --> 26:03.300]  You got thunder.
[26:03.420 --> 26:04.840]  We have no thunder out here on Long Island.
[26:05.020 --> 26:06.560]  How about, uh, Alex, where are you?
[26:07.500 --> 26:08.440]  I'm in Pennsylvania.
[26:08.680 --> 26:09.220]  Oh, okay.
[26:09.600 --> 26:10.960]  Did you get the storm?
[26:11.000 --> 26:19.540]  I don't know if you saw, but towards the, yeah, towards the end of the, uh, the show, I had to, I had to run out because, uh, a massive tree had fallen.
[26:19.860 --> 26:26.960]  We're having, we were having huge rain, huge rainstorms here, uh, combined with, uh, uh, tremendous amount of wind.
[26:27.440 --> 26:32.140]  And I heard this gigantic thump, just bang, that shook the house.
[26:32.520 --> 26:40.640]  And I was afraid that this huge tree that, you know, we realized, you know, needed to be cut down, uh, might've fallen on the house.
[26:40.640 --> 26:46.720]  And I think it might've actually even, I think a huge portion of it might've actually hit the roof and then rolled off.
[26:47.480 --> 26:49.220]  So hopefully there's no damage.
[26:49.360 --> 26:52.600]  Well, wait, you ran out to see, so you must know if there was any damage.
[26:52.800 --> 26:57.880]  Well, it was dark, windy and rainy and you know, it was, it's the roof, right?
[26:57.980 --> 26:59.140]  So it was hard to tell.
[26:59.380 --> 27:00.600]  Well, isn't that what you expected though?
[27:00.700 --> 27:04.040]  When you ran outside, you knew it was dark and rainy and windy and it was on the roof.
[27:04.600 --> 27:05.040]  Yeah.
[27:05.340 --> 27:12.640]  Well, I, I took a cursory look and everything seemed to be okay, but I think I will have to take a better look in daylight.
[27:12.940 --> 27:22.900]  I also, from the place where I had to stand to look at that, the roof of the house was very close to where this gigantic trunk of the tree had fallen.
[27:23.500 --> 27:26.860]  So I didn't want to be, I didn't want to be over there for too long.
[27:27.000 --> 27:29.020]  Otherwise I may not have returned to the show.
[27:29.880 --> 27:30.320]  Interesting.
[27:30.480 --> 27:32.220]  So we're all going through the same storm.
[27:32.220 --> 27:34.240]  It's still raining out by you in Pennsylvania?
[27:34.860 --> 27:35.680]  It is indeed.
[27:35.940 --> 27:38.880]  So it'll probably keep raining there at least for the next few hours.
[27:38.960 --> 27:40.000]  It's a massive storm.
[27:40.160 --> 27:43.860]  You know, we were watching WWL, which is the local TV station in New Orleans.
[27:44.560 --> 27:59.260]  And of course, a lot of people in New Orleans didn't have power, so they couldn't watch TV, but it was just fascinating to see how well they covered the crises that were going on throughout the entire multi-day crisis that New Orleans was going through,
[27:59.380 --> 28:00.140]  still is going through.
[28:01.440 --> 28:13.900]  And that's where I heard about the landlines, about how landlines pretty much weren't there, and that they had lost communications because cell phones had died, and cell phone towers, particularly AT&T, just simply failed.
[28:14.120 --> 28:17.140]  But all of this, it's all what we expect.
[28:17.380 --> 28:18.700]  You know, we should learn this by now.
[28:18.780 --> 28:20.800]  Just like we should learn to use good passwords.
[28:20.940 --> 28:24.200]  We should learn about ways to protect our identity.
[28:24.960 --> 28:28.320]  It's really not anything late-breaking.
[28:29.500 --> 28:39.360]  It's so sad to hear, too, because we're not even really getting at the corruption and greed that's involved in making these systems and lacking, like, the regulation.
[28:39.600 --> 28:39.840]  I don't know.
[28:39.900 --> 28:46.000]  One of the articles we had, I think it was the Tech Dirt article, was pretty scathing about AT&T's handling of that.
[28:46.160 --> 28:48.480]  And I want to go back to something that...
[28:48.480 --> 28:49.840]  And that's just...
[28:49.840 --> 28:51.180]  We're just so charitable.
[28:51.180 --> 28:55.740]  We're just like, oh, we've been saying this for years, and gosh, we should embrace all kinds of things.
[28:55.980 --> 28:56.240]  No.
[28:56.460 --> 28:57.220]  They're greedy.
[28:57.320 --> 28:58.280]  Their system sucks.
[28:58.500 --> 29:00.980]  Can I just read the headline from that Tech Dirt article?
[29:01.180 --> 29:06.040]  AT&T's 911 Cellular Network's face plant in wake of Hurricane Ida.
[29:06.520 --> 29:07.360]  Yeah, it's a good article.
[29:07.460 --> 29:08.300]  I suggest reading it.
[29:09.480 --> 29:10.140]  So true.
[29:10.360 --> 29:11.320]  And that just, like...
[29:12.080 --> 29:39.300]  We're not even going in hard on the bureaucratic and corporate aspect of it, which is lengthy, storied, and I mean, for such a dominant, powerful, wealthy company to have failed so ingloriously there in an emergency is astounding and kind of makes sense.
[29:39.580 --> 29:40.140]  It's predictable.
[29:40.420 --> 29:40.940]  Yeah.
[29:40.940 --> 29:45.540]  It kind of was bound to happen because that's not where their interests are.
[29:45.540 --> 29:56.340]  They're making shareholders happy, and they set prices with all their other cronies for all the other networks and elbow out any kind of regulation.
[29:56.690 --> 30:05.240]  This is what happened when Ajit Pai was running the FCC for years, and Powell before him into the ground.
[30:06.900 --> 30:07.830]  And it's...
[30:08.240 --> 30:11.740]  Other than selling Spectrum, I don't know what other good they do.
[30:11.740 --> 30:25.980]  Maybe harassing radio stations, but it's really pathetic, and we deserve better as a country, and we're tired of being blue in the face talking about it, and it's not our fault.
[30:26.200 --> 30:35.000]  I'm tired of blaming myself for all of these externalities and being like, oh, well, maybe we just should have messaged better, or...
[30:35.000 --> 30:36.220]  How do you message better?
[30:36.220 --> 30:38.380]  Help people's hands harder, you know?
[30:38.540 --> 30:40.080]  Like, give me a break.
[30:40.300 --> 30:43.780]  This marketplace sucks.
[30:44.060 --> 30:47.040]  I'm tired of commenting on it.
[30:47.220 --> 30:47.920]  It's boring.
[30:48.220 --> 30:54.900]  I want to talk about, you know, making older telephone systems cool and, you know, old technology great, you know?
[30:55.800 --> 31:03.000]  But I'm very frustrated hearing that there's suffering as a result of this, and yet no consequence.
[31:03.000 --> 31:17.000]  No blame, and here we are just expounding in the most aspirational, altruistic terms when there's real failings at the foundation of this, in my view.
[31:17.060 --> 31:17.980]  Well, this might make you feel better.
[31:18.100 --> 31:25.680]  The chief executive of America's second largest wireless network apologized to millions of customers who had their data stolen in a hack of the company's systems.
[31:25.920 --> 31:35.940]  The hack resulted in the exposure of personal information, including names, driver's license numbers, and social security numbers of as many as 40 million current and former T-Mobile customers.
[31:36.400 --> 31:38.200]  No credit card information was lost.
[31:39.200 --> 31:41.740]  You know, they say that as if that's something we should be celebrating.
[31:42.320 --> 31:43.940]  Why do they have our social security numbers?
[31:44.040 --> 31:45.500]  Why do they have our driver's license numbers?
[31:45.660 --> 31:47.380]  There's no reason to give them that information.
[31:47.540 --> 31:49.300]  There's no reason they should ask you for that information.
[31:49.580 --> 31:51.040]  It's a telephone, you know?
[31:51.220 --> 31:53.900]  You pay your bill, you continue to have the telephone.
[31:54.000 --> 31:55.840]  You stop paying it, they disconnect you, period.
[31:56.020 --> 31:56.480]  That's it.
[31:56.560 --> 31:57.640]  They don't need to know where you live.
[31:57.640 --> 31:58.800]  They don't need to know anything.
[31:58.960 --> 32:02.040]  And yet somehow, we've told ourselves we have to give them all this information.
[32:02.220 --> 32:04.240]  Well, this is what happens when you give them the information.
[32:04.420 --> 32:05.300]  They lose it.
[32:05.520 --> 32:08.640]  They share it with people they're not supposed to share it with.
[32:08.980 --> 32:11.540]  And you're the one that winds up paying for it.
[32:13.280 --> 32:21.000]  CEO Mike Sievert said in a blog post on Friday, we didn't live up to the expectations we have for ourselves to protect our customers.
[32:22.800 --> 32:23.360]  Yeah.
[32:24.520 --> 32:25.660]  You sure didn't.
[32:25.780 --> 32:27.000]  And you continue not to.
[32:27.280 --> 32:28.460]  And you're not alone.
[32:28.900 --> 32:30.720]  And that goes for utility companies.
[32:30.720 --> 32:38.660]  That goes for all kinds of media outlets that simply don't keep information as secure as they should.
[32:39.660 --> 32:40.460]  It's not hard.
[32:40.620 --> 32:41.280]  It's not hard.
[32:41.540 --> 32:43.140]  But... Well, I mean, it is hard.
[32:43.520 --> 32:44.560]  It's a hard job.
[32:44.560 --> 32:46.060]  But it's not hard to know this.
[32:46.260 --> 32:49.460]  You know, to realize this is where you have to focus attention.
[32:49.820 --> 32:52.060]  And I just wish they took it more seriously.
[32:52.800 --> 32:53.180]  Alex?
[32:54.600 --> 32:55.300]  Yeah, sure.
[32:55.400 --> 32:57.640]  I mean, I'll push back against that a little bit.
[32:57.680 --> 33:00.860]  I think, you know, we have to be careful of blaming the victim.
[33:01.120 --> 33:02.460]  I know we talked about this already.
[33:02.460 --> 33:03.740]  We are the victim, Alex.
[33:04.020 --> 33:06.260]  T-Mobile and AT&T are not the victims.
[33:06.420 --> 33:07.260]  They're the culprits.
[33:08.500 --> 33:13.700]  They're the ones with the data letting it go and not caring enough to protect it.
[33:13.800 --> 33:15.360]  So they are not the victims here.
[33:15.600 --> 33:16.900]  Well, it's hard to say.
[33:17.100 --> 33:26.660]  I mean, look, as somebody, as a security practitioner, too, you know, it's hard to say whether they're the culprit or not without knowing, you know, what kind of controls they had in place.
[33:26.660 --> 33:27.960]  How did this happen?
[33:28.940 --> 33:32.400]  You know, whether there was some form of negligence involved.
[33:32.480 --> 33:33.260]  But it is.
[33:33.340 --> 33:34.980]  It's a very difficult thing.
[33:34.980 --> 33:36.400]  And I agree.
[33:36.640 --> 33:39.480]  I think data should be minimized to the extent possible.
[33:39.480 --> 33:46.040]  And that's, you know, a lot of what the practice of privacy law and privacy engineering is all about these days.
[33:46.300 --> 33:48.400]  But it's very, very hard.
[33:48.660 --> 33:52.700]  Can you think of a single good reason that a phone company needs your social security number?
[33:53.360 --> 33:59.720]  Yeah, to use it to run some kind of periodic credit check on you, something like that, where that information is required.
[33:59.720 --> 34:00.200]  Your name.
[34:00.200 --> 34:01.740]  Your name can do that.
[34:02.100 --> 34:04.300]  Social security should be for social security.
[34:04.440 --> 34:05.420]  That's my understanding.
[34:05.980 --> 34:07.260]  Well, maybe it's to verify.
[34:07.460 --> 34:10.940]  Maybe it's another piece of information used to verify your identity.
[34:10.940 --> 34:12.900]  Why do they need to verify your identity?
[34:13.080 --> 34:14.940]  Why can't I get a phone under an assumed name?
[34:15.080 --> 34:16.320]  Why is that so important?
[34:16.420 --> 34:16.580]  Gila?
[34:17.160 --> 34:22.740]  Why did... Why have credit scores become the most important thing in the country in the past 30 years?
[34:23.200 --> 34:25.000]  Like, why are we feeding into that?
[34:25.140 --> 34:25.540]  You know?
[34:25.700 --> 34:26.960]  We're not asking the right questions.
[34:27.100 --> 34:28.500]  These are the right questions to ask.
[34:28.760 --> 34:31.300]  We're assuming these things are normal, and they're really not.
[34:33.240 --> 34:38.600]  No, I think that's a huge piece of it, is credit scores didn't really exist before, what, 1989?
[34:39.720 --> 34:41.500]  No, actually, it was about 1984.
[34:42.740 --> 34:50.660]  I know, because 2600 did a report on this in 1984, but I don't know if they were credit scores or simply credit reports at the time with TRW.
[34:50.860 --> 34:55.040]  I think I was saying something, but, like, FICO really came into prominence in 1989.
[34:55.560 --> 34:59.780]  And all of a sudden, that determines so much.
[34:59.780 --> 35:05.720]  Like, if you can have a phone, where you can live, sometimes if you can get a job.
[35:05.900 --> 35:06.180]  Right.
[35:11.500 --> 35:20.100]  Leave the arbiter of what the world is and what our place is in it, and also handing over this kind of personally identifiable information.
[35:20.920 --> 35:21.020]  Yeah.
[35:21.340 --> 35:21.560]  Yeah.
[35:22.620 --> 35:25.780]  As often as possible, I give fake information to these companies.
[35:26.540 --> 35:28.840]  And I sleep well at night.
[35:29.860 --> 35:32.540]  It's morally, I think it's just fine to do that.
[35:32.540 --> 35:35.580]  If the bill is paid, that's all they should care about.
[35:35.860 --> 35:42.120]  It's just insane to have these companies demanding personal information that really is none of their business.
[35:42.420 --> 35:46.560]  Our phone number, 802-321-4225, 802-321-HACK.
[35:46.700 --> 35:48.500]  We're on off the hook over time for another few minutes.
[35:48.740 --> 35:53.540]  If there's something you'd like to share with us or get off your chest, by all means, give us a call.
[35:53.660 --> 35:54.360]  We'd like to hear from you.
[35:54.880 --> 35:56.880]  802-321-4225.
[35:58.240 --> 35:58.860]  Yes, Rob?
[35:59.880 --> 36:05.500]  While we're waiting for a call, I wanted to ask you about today's Lost Audio, which I enjoyed a lot.
[36:05.700 --> 36:06.580]  Oh, you're following that.
[36:06.820 --> 36:11.320]  Yeah, Lost Audio is something that we're doing on 2600.com.
[36:11.500 --> 36:16.460]  Every day since July 15th, we release a snippet of audio that has, one way or another, been lost.
[36:17.000 --> 36:20.940]  Either an interview, an old radio show, various things like that.
[36:21.120 --> 36:26.200]  Today, we released a 1987 interview that I did with two members of Big Audio Dynamite.
[36:26.880 --> 36:29.160]  Which was Don Letts and Dan Donovan.
[36:29.760 --> 36:31.340]  This took place at Irving Plaza.
[36:32.000 --> 36:38.940]  It's interesting because it happened the day after I got back from this week-long trip to Baffin Island up in Iqaluit.
[36:39.120 --> 36:41.660]  In what was then Northwest Territories, what's now Nunavut.
[36:41.940 --> 36:51.840]  So the contrast from going to a remote northern city to the middle of New York City and seeing my favorite band, it couldn't have been more dramatic.
[36:52.260 --> 36:55.440]  And these two guys were just so amazing to talk to.
[36:55.440 --> 36:58.520]  They just were so gracious and open and intelligent.
[36:58.520 --> 37:00.340]  And it was really a cool thing.
[37:00.900 --> 37:11.040]  Unfortunately, you'll hear at the end of that same recording, we made the mistake of asking, was it Adam Yalch of Beastie Boys for an ID?
[37:11.060 --> 37:14.560]  And it was just the most misogynistic, sexist, obscene thing.
[37:14.820 --> 37:17.360]  And we included it because, hey, it was part of the night.
[37:17.540 --> 37:18.300]  You know, it's there.
[37:18.440 --> 37:19.080]  It's what happened.
[37:19.320 --> 37:20.540]  It was unacceptable then.
[37:20.560 --> 37:21.340]  It's unacceptable now.
[37:21.340 --> 37:22.800]  But there it is.
[37:22.940 --> 37:23.820]  It's not always pleasant.
[37:23.960 --> 37:30.420]  But the interview and subsequent interviews that I did with Big Audio Dynamite were simply high points.
[37:30.420 --> 37:34.160]  And I realized just what amazing people they were, more than just musicians.
[37:34.400 --> 37:35.340]  So that's one day.
[37:35.720 --> 37:37.480]  Tomorrow, we'll release something else.
[37:37.780 --> 37:43.200]  And I think this is going to go on well into October, where we have just all kinds of different pieces.
[37:43.340 --> 37:44.320]  Have you been listening to them?
[37:45.520 --> 37:49.000]  I've been listening on and off every so often, catching up on the ones I missed.
[37:49.120 --> 37:51.520]  But yeah, I saw the Big Audio Dynamite interview.
[37:51.780 --> 37:56.960]  And I think you've had like a little snippet of that available before elsewhere.
[37:57.200 --> 37:59.540]  But it's a good interview.
[37:59.760 --> 38:04.380]  And yeah, also Mick Jones, I think, trying to do an ID and calling the station WUSP.
[38:05.200 --> 38:06.360]  Yeah, the station is WUSB.
[38:06.980 --> 38:08.000]  And he said WUSP.
[38:08.040 --> 38:09.480]  That's why we never use that ID.
[38:09.640 --> 38:11.620]  But I didn't have the heart to ask him to do it again.
[38:12.740 --> 38:15.940]  But actually, that interview has never been aired anywhere.
[38:16.160 --> 38:18.540]  Do you think of a 1989 interview I did with them?
[38:19.180 --> 38:20.380]  I was thinking of the IDs.
[38:20.560 --> 38:21.340]  I think you put those up.
[38:21.600 --> 38:21.640]  The IDs.
[38:21.800 --> 38:23.000]  Yeah, some of the IDs made it.
[38:23.420 --> 38:26.360]  Not the Adam Yashwin, but other ones did.
[38:26.800 --> 38:27.940]  But yeah, it's just, it's fascinating.
[38:28.120 --> 38:32.140]  A lot of this came from old tapes or old files that were just sitting around.
[38:32.280 --> 38:36.360]  And it took many months to organize them and get them together and figure out a release schedule.
[38:36.540 --> 38:45.740]  And then, of course, we had our webmaster genius, Olsi, who put together a system where we could have these things released in a way that made sense.
[38:46.740 --> 38:47.440]  And you know what?
[38:47.500 --> 38:48.180]  There might be more.
[38:48.200 --> 38:51.840]  And maybe listeners have more audio that we've lost track of.
[38:52.120 --> 38:53.920]  If you think you have something, write to us.
[38:54.020 --> 38:55.400]  OTH at 2600.com.
[38:55.520 --> 38:59.660]  We'd love to hear just what kinds of material you might have.
[38:59.740 --> 39:07.000]  Yeah, before we do the wax cylinder encoding project, we need to get all the tapes so we can move past tape and we'll switch mediums.
[39:07.000 --> 39:10.480]  You know, we have a wax cylinder machine and we have some wax cylinders.
[39:10.760 --> 39:12.700]  Have you guys ever seen wax cylinders?
[39:13.000 --> 39:15.100]  It's like little Alexas.
[39:15.220 --> 39:18.860]  It's the shape of the tubular Alexa, a little bit shorter.
[39:19.360 --> 39:24.600]  And then they go into a machine and that was pre-vinyl.
[39:25.040 --> 39:29.880]  That's how they got the latest singles or music or whatnot.
[39:30.220 --> 39:34.060]  I've yet to actually hear one, but it's prevalent.
[39:34.060 --> 39:36.300]  You can buy these wax cylinders online.
[39:36.300 --> 39:37.040]  They're pretty cheap.
[39:38.180 --> 39:38.940]  Pretty groovy.
[39:39.580 --> 39:39.920]  Yeah.
[39:40.200 --> 39:45.220]  And it would be fun to learn about it and maybe figure out a way to record our own wax cylinder.
[39:46.700 --> 39:47.600]  Wouldn't that be cool?
[39:47.720 --> 39:48.160]  Okay, so...
[39:48.160 --> 39:49.460]  That's a great premium, right?
[39:49.720 --> 39:50.640]  Yeah, yeah.
[39:51.560 --> 39:55.160]  Who was it who made the album for like a million dollars?
[39:55.860 --> 39:56.360]  Wu-Tang.
[39:56.500 --> 39:57.180]  Yeah, Wu-Tang Clan.
[39:57.740 --> 40:00.500]  Why don't they release their next album on a wax cylinder?
[40:00.840 --> 40:02.900]  That'll be a challenge for people to actually hear it.
[40:02.900 --> 40:04.660]  Yeah, you're probably already working on it.
[40:05.180 --> 40:07.080]  I don't know what the fidelity is.
[40:07.200 --> 40:08.720]  It might not be the best.
[40:09.060 --> 40:09.760]  But whatever.
[40:09.760 --> 40:13.060]  You know, we could drive out to Staten Island and pitch it to the Wu-Tang Clan.
[40:13.080 --> 40:13.320]  You know what?
[40:13.320 --> 40:16.720]  I might as well ask this too, since we have a captive audience, literally.
[40:17.420 --> 40:19.700]  We're working on a vinyl encoding project.
[40:20.340 --> 40:24.140]  Vinyl through USB and digitize some vinyl collections.
[40:24.440 --> 40:27.880]  And we're having a heck of a time finding a good setup.
[40:27.880 --> 40:40.240]  A phonograph with a decent USB output that saves to a WAV format and that doesn't do things like distort or have a tone arm that skips all over the place.
[40:40.420 --> 40:43.960]  You know, a decent turntable with a decent USB output.
[40:44.120 --> 40:45.440]  That's what I'm looking for.
[40:45.560 --> 40:47.660]  If anyone has any suggestions, again, write to us.
[40:47.660 --> 40:49.340]  It's OTH at 2600.com.
[40:49.460 --> 40:52.040]  It's one of many, many projects that we are involved in.
[40:52.900 --> 40:53.960]  Yeah, it's tricky.
[40:54.180 --> 40:59.840]  It's this weird confluence of old and new.
[41:00.000 --> 41:04.120]  Kind of along the lines of what we've been addressing in the show.
[41:04.340 --> 41:11.940]  Just having old stuff but wanting to make an index or make it accessible in a new player.
[41:12.760 --> 41:15.720]  This being computers and file formats.
[41:15.980 --> 41:17.600]  So, it's really exciting.
[41:17.760 --> 41:18.900]  But you also run into all this stuff.
[41:18.960 --> 41:22.300]  And this was partly one of the reasons the input was set low.
[41:22.520 --> 41:26.000]  We were troubleshooting some gain issues.
[41:26.420 --> 41:28.540]  And there's a trade-off.
[41:28.620 --> 41:34.160]  Because you can get, like, the most impressive DAW, which is Digital Audio Workstation.
[41:34.160 --> 41:45.060]  And you can find the most esoteric audiophile turntable in the world that's, like, balanced on fine rare gems and stuff.
[41:45.180 --> 41:47.180]  But we're not quite as interested.
[41:47.180 --> 41:49.200]  We just want it to not sound terrible.
[41:51.380 --> 42:00.440]  And work with some kind of USB encoding so that we don't have to get an expensive audio interface.
[42:00.780 --> 42:02.980]  Which is totally possible.
[42:02.980 --> 42:04.980]  We do a lot with that, anyway, with radio.
[42:05.300 --> 42:06.520]  And there are a couple...
[42:06.520 --> 42:07.120]  We're going to experiment.
[42:07.260 --> 42:09.740]  We're still experimenting and trying to find something we're happy with.
[42:10.120 --> 42:16.900]  But some of the cheaper software and other packages out there work great for what we need.
[42:17.040 --> 42:21.680]  But they don't have as much variability in the kinds of inputs.
[42:22.460 --> 42:23.200]  It's weird.
[42:23.420 --> 42:25.820]  And audio recording with USB is weird.
[42:25.900 --> 42:28.220]  So, we're not totally sold on that, either.
[42:28.220 --> 42:31.440]  It's an interesting project.
[42:31.460 --> 42:37.560]  But it's important because it allows you to know what you have in your collection.
[42:37.720 --> 42:45.760]  Like, if you have a library, you want to quickly search through what titles and go grab an album or find out what album the song was on.
[42:45.880 --> 42:47.500]  It would really complement that.
[42:47.500 --> 42:53.660]  And we know there's so many hackers out there that have done probably way more complicated encodings.
[42:53.660 --> 42:58.560]  And we just want to find out what's worked for people and then maybe share it.
[42:58.620 --> 43:00.720]  Because we also do so much with the radio stations.
[43:00.940 --> 43:08.540]  We've seen what places like WFMU and other places have done with record libraries and stuff.
[43:08.540 --> 43:13.020]  So, it's a really important kind of technical initiative.
[43:13.020 --> 43:18.100]  Kind of like our voicemail system, voice BBS system, where we're organizing all those recordings.
[43:19.340 --> 43:20.160]  That's what you do.
[43:20.300 --> 43:22.700]  You bring it into a new format.
[43:22.860 --> 43:27.420]  Bring it into a new era so that it's not just locked on some media.
[43:28.520 --> 43:28.740]  Yeah.
[43:28.940 --> 43:29.600]  Yeah, absolutely.
[43:31.200 --> 43:32.240]  Have we gotten any calls?
[43:32.540 --> 43:33.680]  802-321-4225.
[43:34.380 --> 43:36.280]  We're going to leave it open for another couple of minutes.
[43:36.280 --> 43:38.320]  I wasn't looking, but I don't think I heard it.
[43:38.540 --> 43:40.140]  If you're in a storm-affected area...
[43:40.140 --> 43:41.380]  As we are right now.
[43:41.740 --> 43:44.480]  But if you just weathered a storm, please call us.
[43:44.740 --> 43:45.480]  Tell us how it went.
[43:45.600 --> 43:46.780]  And we know that the phone works.
[43:47.020 --> 43:49.200]  A landline will work in rain.
[43:49.740 --> 43:52.060]  Can't always say that about cell phones, but...
[43:52.060 --> 43:54.460]  We want to know what kinds of things you're going through.
[43:54.460 --> 44:02.380]  If you need anything, what kind of messages you might want to get out about how hard it is to communicate.
[44:02.640 --> 44:03.300]  We're here.
[44:03.420 --> 44:04.460]  We'd love to share.
[44:04.880 --> 44:11.600]  I'm sure it might be hard to listen to us, but, you know, if you can listen to us, you could probably maybe find a way to reach out.
[44:11.940 --> 44:12.320]  Yeah.
[44:12.620 --> 44:12.800]  Yeah.
[44:12.960 --> 44:13.760]  That's well said.
[44:14.140 --> 44:21.680]  This story here, which I found kind of interesting and perplexing at the same time, a hacker has returned $336,000.
[44:21.940 --> 44:23.500]  A lot of hackers returning money lately.
[44:23.800 --> 44:34.440]  This hacker returned $336,000 to a British collector after he tricked him into buying a fake Banksy NFT advertised through the artist's official website.
[44:35.200 --> 44:35.820]  Yeah.
[44:36.100 --> 44:41.720]  A link to an online auction for the NFT was posted on a now-deleted page of Banksy.co.uk.
[44:42.280 --> 44:47.180]  The auction ended early after the man offered 90% more than rival bidders.
[44:47.600 --> 44:54.240]  Banksy's team told the BBC, any Banksy NFT auctions are not affiliated with the artist in any shape or form.
[44:55.600 --> 45:10.160]  In case you don't know, with NFTs, artwork can be tokenized to create a digital certificate of ownership that can be bought and sold, but they do not generally give the buyer the actual artwork or its copyright.
[45:10.940 --> 45:12.240]  Yeah, we'll come back to that.
[45:12.460 --> 45:18.240]  The Banksy fan who got duped says he thought he was buying the world-famous graffiti artist's first-ever NFT.
[45:19.900 --> 45:32.460]  The man who was in his 30s and wanted to remain anonymous, and I can understand why, explained over Twitter direct messages that he suspects Banksy's site was hacked and he was the victim of an elaborate scam.
[45:32.820 --> 45:39.840]  He says the hacker returned all the money except for the transaction fee of around £5,000 on Monday evening.
[45:39.840 --> 45:46.800]  And honestly, I think whoever charged the £5,000 should return that.
[45:46.940 --> 45:50.400]  Why is it that those guys get to keep it, you know, whoever they are?
[45:50.820 --> 45:52.480]  That's just not right.
[45:53.040 --> 46:02.120]  The prominent NFT collector uses the online name Pranksy, and he said the whole episode was bizarre, but that the hacker may have gotten scared.
[46:02.280 --> 46:02.740]  Or you know what?
[46:02.760 --> 46:05.340]  Maybe the hacker was just honest and wanted to teach you a lesson.
[46:05.480 --> 46:06.680]  Your name is Pranksy, after all.
[46:07.700 --> 46:13.160]  I feel very lucky when a lot of others in a similar situation with less reach would not have had the same outcome.
[46:13.340 --> 46:14.700]  Also, it's your reach that did it.
[46:15.140 --> 46:18.640]  This guy does not want to give the hacker any credit.
[46:18.840 --> 46:22.440]  It's because of who you were and because you scared the hacker.
[46:23.080 --> 46:23.260]  Yeah.
[46:25.280 --> 46:30.660]  So basically, this opens up the whole question of NFTs.
[46:31.640 --> 46:35.600]  People have explained NFTs to me dozens of times, and I still don't get it.
[46:35.600 --> 46:36.920]  I still don't understand it.
[46:37.140 --> 46:39.140]  I don't understand the value, the allure.
[46:39.860 --> 46:41.940]  You don't own the artwork.
[46:41.940 --> 46:43.720]  You don't have the artwork.
[46:43.980 --> 46:50.100]  You own a certificate that says that you're the person that has the certificate or something like that.
[46:51.360 --> 46:53.320]  Alex, you're a legal expert.
[46:53.480 --> 46:53.880]  You're a lawyer.
[46:54.200 --> 46:55.860]  Does this make any sense to you?
[46:57.900 --> 46:58.940]  Oh, God.
[46:59.400 --> 47:00.000]  Good, good.
[47:00.080 --> 47:01.120]  That's why they want to hear.
[47:01.260 --> 47:03.800]  No, I want to hear that tone because that's how I feel.
[47:04.560 --> 47:05.440]  I know.
[47:05.620 --> 47:08.420]  I mean, the whole NFT thing is very...
[47:09.760 --> 47:16.120]  It's bizarre in a lot of ways, and I get it, that you don't own the physical thing itself.
[47:16.340 --> 47:17.660]  But isn't that the whole point?
[47:17.660 --> 47:19.020]  It's the physical thing itself.
[47:19.180 --> 47:20.760]  Why would you want to own anything else?
[47:20.760 --> 47:30.800]  Well, look, there is something to be said, though, about owning this singular digitalization.
[47:31.080 --> 47:47.400]  It's basically creating this spot where the thing exists, where this digital presence of a spot on a blockchain of where this thing exists and you knowing that you own the only digital manifestation.
[47:47.400 --> 47:49.140]  And how do you know that?
[47:49.300 --> 47:50.680]  How do you know you own the only one?
[47:50.800 --> 47:53.440]  How do you know no one else can just do the same thing again somewhere else?
[47:53.640 --> 47:56.920]  Well, you know, that's what I've wondered a lot, too, right?
[47:57.060 --> 48:01.980]  That, you know, sure, you can just, you know, put random data in a blockchain and track it and things like that.
[48:02.260 --> 48:11.120]  But it is, you know, having the scarcity of this one unique and particular digital item, you know, and you may be able...
[48:11.120 --> 48:22.600]  Obviously, you can create other digital incantations of the particular thing itself, but they won't be the official one, that one, that is...
[48:22.600 --> 48:27.180]  Because it's weird for us to say this because we're just so used to things being copied in digital form.
[48:27.180 --> 48:31.660]  But this is a unique thing that exists in a digital space.
[48:31.960 --> 48:41.800]  Even though we may be able to make graphic representations, this one digital incantation, owning that for some reason, you know, attracts a lot of value.
[48:41.800 --> 48:42.900]  Kyle, then Rob.
[48:43.800 --> 49:12.160]  Well, I just think of it as a way of making things that are infinitely copyable, like digital files, making them unique in attaching this token or cryptographic scheme that in itself can allow the owner to verify that they are the owner or allow others that are wanting to verify their ownership or possession of this unique file.
[49:13.540 --> 49:18.380]  But I think it's still emerging and there's a lot of different ways of thinking about it.
[49:18.440 --> 49:23.020]  And it's also as valuable as people...
[49:23.680 --> 49:25.780]  as much value as they attach to it.
[49:25.920 --> 49:34.120]  So at this point, maybe something isn't as sought after or it's just sort of affordable and people are just having fun with it.
[49:34.120 --> 49:38.840]  And maybe the attitude towards that unique item changes over time.
[49:38.900 --> 49:42.500]  And I think that's what people are betting on in a lot of ways, if that makes sense.
[49:42.680 --> 49:43.080]  Go ahead, Rob.
[49:44.360 --> 49:48.980]  Yeah, there's a lot of if that makes sense in the NFT world, but the problem is none of it makes sense.
[49:49.860 --> 50:02.400]  To break it down very simply, NFTs have nothing to do with the actual artwork other than just attaching the fact of their existence to a little number somewhere that you can buy on someone else's list.
[50:02.620 --> 50:09.040]  It's like if I tell you I'm selling the Mona Lisa and you say the Mona Lisa is in the Louvre in Paris, you can't be selling the Mona Lisa.
[50:09.160 --> 50:10.420]  No, I'm selling you the Mona Lisa.
[50:10.700 --> 50:24.660]  And so you give me like $1,000 for the Mona Lisa and I say in exchange for that $1,000, I will write your name on a piece of paper in my little notebook that I have here and say, you know, Gila owns the Mona Lisa because Gila just bought the NFT.
[50:24.920 --> 50:25.600]  Oh, how convenient.
[50:26.180 --> 50:28.240]  Yeah, Gila doesn't get the Mona Lisa.
[50:28.640 --> 50:31.580]  Gila has nothing to do with the Mona Lisa, which is still hanging in the Louvre.
[50:32.340 --> 50:36.440]  But if anyone wants to look at my little notebook and see Gila's name in it, I'll show them too.
[50:36.740 --> 50:38.640]  And that's what Gila's just paid $1,000.
[50:38.720 --> 50:42.040]  Let me ask you, Rob, what gives you the right to do that?
[50:43.520 --> 50:44.340]  Absolutely nothing.
[50:44.740 --> 50:51.520]  There have been cases now of licensed NFTs, like the new Totally Garbage Space Jam movie that came out.
[50:51.680 --> 50:54.920]  The movie studio put out their own NFTs of stuff from the movie.
[50:55.240 --> 51:00.040]  And, you know, they're not selling anything except writing people's names in a little notebook.
[51:00.420 --> 51:05.400]  And the only thing that makes it any flavor of official is that it's the same people who made the movie doing the thing.
[51:05.520 --> 51:08.440]  But still, there is no thing being owned.
[51:08.740 --> 51:11.900]  Apart from bragging rights, you can say, oh, you bought it first.
[51:12.020 --> 51:21.260]  But even if, say, Gila, you bought the Mona Lisa's NFT from me in my little notebook, that's not stopping anybody else in the world from pulling out their little notebook and saying, no, I'm going to sell you the Mona Lisa.
[51:21.800 --> 51:23.020]  How much will you buy for that?
[51:23.020 --> 51:27.660]  So then you're not the official owner because there could be a million official owners.
[51:28.620 --> 51:29.060]  Absolutely.
[51:30.060 --> 51:31.240]  I can't get past this.
[51:31.820 --> 51:34.200]  Yeah, it's the new version of selling the Brooklyn Bridge to people.
[51:34.600 --> 51:36.140]  And it's absolutely...
[51:36.640 --> 51:37.060]  Wait a minute.
[51:37.160 --> 51:38.060]  Has anyone done that?
[51:38.360 --> 51:41.180]  Has anyone actually done an NFT of the Brooklyn Bridge?
[51:41.260 --> 51:42.180]  Because that's perfect.
[51:42.780 --> 51:45.240]  Oh, that must have happened, I'm sure.
[51:45.380 --> 52:01.420]  But, like, as a working artist, as somebody who, you know, has designs of doing artwork in exchange for money to make a living, it baffles me so much that people are willing to pay people with nothing to do with the artist a bunch of money to say, okay,
[52:01.580 --> 52:09.600]  I now have some kind of dibs on that piece of artwork when you can just actually buy art and support people who make these things.
[52:09.800 --> 52:09.940]  Okay.
[52:10.220 --> 52:11.100]  And I have a thing.
[52:11.460 --> 52:11.740]  Idea.
[52:13.360 --> 52:17.580]  WBAI applies to the FCC, changes its call letters to WNFT.
[52:18.700 --> 52:19.160]  Okay.
[52:19.160 --> 52:29.700]  And then they just go around the city making NFTs of everything and selling them for huge amounts of money to people that just don't like their money as much as they like to have digital representations.
[52:30.020 --> 52:31.300]  And then make it part of the fund drive.
[52:31.820 --> 52:32.900]  There won't be a fund drive.
[52:33.020 --> 52:33.800]  There won't be a need for one.
[52:34.340 --> 52:38.740]  There'll just be a constant flow of income from people that I don't understand.
[52:39.900 --> 52:40.260]  Wow.
[52:40.520 --> 52:46.040]  I can't help but wonder, though, if there's an NFT bubble and it's going to burst soon.
[52:47.000 --> 52:51.440]  There seems to be, like, waves of more and more people who got caught up in this whole thing.
[52:51.600 --> 52:56.200]  Now, like this person looking at this NFT thing and going, what have I actually got here?
[52:56.680 --> 52:58.280]  And what did I just pay money for?
[52:58.560 --> 53:00.720]  And ending up dissatisfied with the whole thing.
[53:00.980 --> 53:08.240]  But on what planet would you think that Banksy, of all people, was going to show up in some random place and be like, hey, dude, have an NFT.
[53:08.480 --> 53:08.780]  What?
[53:08.780 --> 53:12.320]  At the same time, he's pulled stunts like that.
[53:12.760 --> 53:13.960]  Yeah, like with the paper shredder.
[53:14.080 --> 53:18.960]  With the paper shredder with, like, just randomly selling artwork out in the street somewhere.
[53:19.140 --> 53:24.040]  Yeah, but this is like the dude on the Catfish show who thought he was dating Katy Perry.
[53:24.260 --> 53:24.580]  Right.
[53:25.820 --> 53:26.780]  It's not happening.
[53:27.240 --> 53:32.040]  Yeah, but it's, and, you know, there are ways to buy art, there are ways to support people who create things.
[53:32.360 --> 53:39.900]  And also, as a working artist, I, you know, the power of the internet and the power of the digital space for artists is that stuff can be copied.
[53:40.100 --> 53:42.340]  You can put your stuff out there and people can build on it.
[53:42.480 --> 53:46.280]  And, you know, you have freely licensed stuff that people are encouraged to remix.
[53:46.680 --> 53:50.380]  And, you know, this is just so far in the other direction it's not even funny.
[53:50.860 --> 54:01.260]  I think for Banksy's site specifically because of his anonymity and stuff that it's managed through other people and it's hosted through a separate provider.
[54:01.600 --> 54:14.280]  So it is entirely likely that somehow that system or a service provider had some kind of vulnerability and someone was able to exploit it and add a page to what is a very small website, essentially.
[54:14.560 --> 54:16.160]  So it's certainly possible.
[54:16.160 --> 54:19.220]  But if you're Banksy, why would you say either way?
[54:19.320 --> 54:24.960]  Why would you say like, oh, my site just got compromised and this NFT isn't really me.
[54:25.000 --> 54:33.900]  He'll probably just ride it out like any other prank he's done and it just sort of fits in perfectly with his sort of persona in a lot of ways.
[54:33.900 --> 54:35.460]  So maybe he is messing with it.
[54:35.520 --> 54:42.920]  Maybe he wants to make a mockery of the very idea of NFTs and high art because that's kind of his thing.
[54:43.160 --> 54:43.300]  Yeah.
[54:43.560 --> 54:46.900]  Well, maybe the hacker is Banksy or somebody that...
[54:46.900 --> 54:49.040]  But something tells me that...
[54:49.760 --> 54:50.520]  I don't know.
[54:50.700 --> 54:51.900]  Was his website hacked?
[54:51.980 --> 54:52.980]  There's a lot of questions here.
[54:53.200 --> 54:56.200]  You know, I might have shaken Banksy's hand once, you know?
[54:56.420 --> 55:00.660]  But that time in New York, remember when he was putting out a different art installation every day?
[55:00.860 --> 55:02.260]  It was a magical time.
[55:02.260 --> 55:06.560]  There was this one time where there was this truck going around with...
[55:06.560 --> 55:07.000]  What was it?
[55:07.380 --> 55:07.780]  Little...
[55:07.780 --> 55:14.780]  They were animatronic animals singing and they were all like laughing but they were in a meat truck.
[55:14.880 --> 55:15.620]  In a meat truck.
[55:15.860 --> 55:26.760]  And I saw it coming by and I just was so happy to see that and the person driving it I just, you know, reached my hand out and shook his hand and it could very well have been Banksy because that's the kind of thing Banksy would do is drive his own truck.
[55:27.560 --> 55:28.040]  Yeah.
[55:28.240 --> 55:28.980]  I could totally see that.
[55:29.180 --> 55:30.440]  That's details.
[55:30.660 --> 55:31.400]  Let me have that.
[55:31.540 --> 55:31.720]  Okay.
[55:31.820 --> 55:32.300]  All about details.
[55:32.680 --> 55:32.760]  That's a possibility.
[55:33.220 --> 55:37.020]  But, you know, just a conclusion to this story how serious this could have been.
[55:37.880 --> 55:50.800]  Tom Robinson from cryptocurrency analysts or analysis of a company Elliptic confirmed there was nothing the buyer could do once they placed their bid on the auction platform OpenSea.
[55:50.920 --> 55:52.660]  OpenSea is the eBay of NFTs.
[55:53.180 --> 55:54.960]  I'll say that again for dramatic effect.
[55:54.960 --> 55:57.980]  OpenSea is the eBay of NFTs.
[55:58.320 --> 56:01.980]  Boy, I can imagine a 1990s version of me wondering what the hell I just said.
[56:02.420 --> 56:07.760]  It allows anyone to sell digital art that they own or have created themselves.
[56:08.340 --> 56:14.160]  Once a bid has been placed the seller can accept and the cryptocurrency is irreversibly transferred.
[56:14.980 --> 56:23.180]  That is just so scary when you consider all the money that was involved here and the person didn't even own the art that he allegedly sold.
[56:23.520 --> 56:24.100]  Wow.
[56:25.060 --> 56:26.260]  Be careful of NFTs.
[56:26.440 --> 56:27.360]  I don't see the advantage.
[56:27.720 --> 56:29.680]  It just sounds like a complicated receipt.
[56:30.300 --> 56:31.160]  It does.
[56:31.160 --> 56:32.300]  That's pretty much what it is.
[56:32.660 --> 56:37.140]  But if you have ideas for interesting uses for NFTs we're all ears.
[56:37.260 --> 56:38.720]  We'll definitely listen.
[56:39.400 --> 56:44.000]  You can write to us OTH at 2600.com I guess we're going to wrap it up for tonight.
[56:44.160 --> 56:46.380]  Any final words from anybody out there?
[56:46.640 --> 56:47.900]  Alex, Gila, Rob?
[56:49.360 --> 56:54.300]  2600 meetings are happening in various forms throughout the world on Friday.
[56:55.660 --> 56:58.920]  If your local meeting is happening in person again you have that option.
[56:59.160 --> 57:01.500]  Otherwise a lot of meetings are still doing online alternatives.
[57:01.800 --> 57:02.260]  Yes.
[57:02.760 --> 57:07.340]  In fact, tomorrow there will be an updated list on 2600.com slash meetings.
[57:08.240 --> 57:24.440]  If you're in a country where the vaccination rate is 40% or above then it's okay in our eyes to start your meetings again as long as you observe some some cautionary behavior and we're slowly starting to populate the meetings again.
[57:24.620 --> 57:25.640]  I know New York is...
[57:25.640 --> 57:27.400]  How have the meetings gone in New York so far, Rob?
[57:28.500 --> 57:29.520]  They've been going well.
[57:30.360 --> 57:44.420]  We've done two of them now in person in an outdoor space out in the front entrance in front of the front entrance of the atrium on 53rd Street and 3rd Avenue and we're going to do that again this week and it's been going well.
[57:45.080 --> 58:10.100]  I know unfortunately and I don't have I don't have permission to give out names or anything but unfortunately there are a couple of people who are regulars at our events and have been for ages who are now fighting Delta so you know just anonymously going to send some good vibes out in that direction but yes you're encouraged to if you're vaccinated and if you're interested in meeting up in person
[58:10.100 --> 58:16.520]  again come out to the atrium on Friday and check it out The info will be on nyc2600.net.
[58:16.660 --> 58:22.400]  And if you're not into coming out in person, there will still be an online teleconference version for people to do from home.
[58:22.540 --> 58:26.780]  And not to get too much personal information here, but do you know if those people were vaccinated?
[58:28.400 --> 58:29.560]  I know one of them was.
[58:29.680 --> 58:31.940]  I'm not sure if both of them were.
[58:32.000 --> 58:32.740]  I've heard of two people.
[58:33.000 --> 58:35.280]  But one of them is definitely a breakthrough case.
[58:35.500 --> 58:35.660]  Yeah.
[58:35.840 --> 58:40.940]  And, you know, it's something that happens and is provably would have been much worse had they not been vaccinated.
[58:40.940 --> 58:49.580]  Yeah, the breakthrough cases, which I'm seeing more of than I think we all expected, it doesn't prove that the vaccine doesn't work.
[58:49.580 --> 58:54.580]  It proves that the virus is mutating into something stronger.
[58:54.780 --> 58:55.800]  That's what it proves.
[58:56.000 --> 59:00.520]  And that, as you said, it would have been so much worse if people were not vaccinated.
[59:01.420 --> 59:12.780]  So I hope people who have not yet gotten the vaccination, please spare no time and get it ASAP because it could get a lot worse before it gets better.
[59:12.780 --> 59:19.920]  And, you know, my other thought is that perhaps the answer to the virus is the virus.
[59:20.340 --> 59:26.960]  In other words, a mutation that cancels out a previous mutation that isn't as harmful to us.
[59:27.100 --> 59:29.480]  That might be the only way that it disappears.
[59:29.480 --> 59:43.320]  And that is how viruses of the past have somehow petered out, not through human intervention, but just somehow it – I don't want to say it defeats itself, but sometimes it goes in a better direction.
[59:43.620 --> 59:49.100]  And it doesn't always get worse for spreading or for fatalities or things like that.
[59:49.240 --> 59:50.720]  That is not something to count on.
[59:50.760 --> 59:52.440]  That's definitely not something to count on.
[59:52.440 --> 01:00:04.160]  But in this day and age where, you know, we're meeting such resistance, I have to hold out a hope that there'll be some kind of solution that we haven't thought of yet.
[01:00:08.080 --> 01:00:19.120]  Well, with such wishful thinking for virus mutations, I think probably a great, great spot to end the evening and say good night, everybody.
[01:00:19.400 --> 01:00:22.320]  And thank you for listening and be nice to each other.
[01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:27.860]  Let's get vaccinated and be nice to the unvaccinated if you're around them.
[01:00:28.280 --> 01:00:29.740]  Be nice to each other.
[01:00:30.220 --> 01:00:36.320]  Have a safe and healthy long weekend if you're off for Labor Day.
[01:00:36.580 --> 01:00:43.060]  If you are celebrating a new year next week, we wish you happy and healthy.
[01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:46.640]  And please be careful, right?
[01:00:48.780 --> 01:00:49.380]  Yeah.
[01:00:49.720 --> 01:00:51.320]  Happy New Year to those people for whom it applies.
[01:00:51.320 --> 01:00:53.720]  Enjoy your Labor Day for those whom it doesn't.
[01:00:54.380 --> 01:00:55.180]  That's all I got.
[01:00:56.360 --> 01:00:56.800]  Okay.
[01:00:57.740 --> 01:00:59.380]  And we'll see you guys next week.
[01:01:00.280 --> 01:01:00.960]  Night, everybody.