The WBAI Evening News. The time is almost 7pm, which means it's time, once again, for Off The Hook. And that's coming up. Stay tuned.
And the time is just about 7pm. You are listening to WBAI 99.5 FM, New York, and it's time for
another exciting edition of Off The Hook.
But if they could, they would.
Bum diddley bum, but the flesh is red for worse.
I hope that's understood.
Bum diddley bum!
A very, very good evening to you. The program is Off The Hook. Rob T. Firefly here with
you. And I am joined by Gila.
Hello.
And over in Skypland, we have Alex.
Good evening.
And also over in Skypland, we have Emmanuel and Kyle.
Hey there. Howdy.
Still in parts unknown, out on assignment. How are you guys holding up?
We know where we are. We always know where we are. In fact, you can know where we are, too. You have but to ask.
Guys, where are you?
Oh, glad you asked.
Well, last week, actually, interesting story.
We thought we were doing a show last week up until, what was it, six minutes to the hour, and then we suddenly realized this was the week that we were preempted.
Last week, we were literally on the banks of the Mississippi River, watching barges go by.
It was pretty incredible.
But you know what?
It worked out.
It was kind of an inconvenient place to do a radio show from for us.
This week, we've made it further west.
We're in the wonderful but mysterious city of Seattle, which is located in the state of Washington here in the United States.
We know about Seattle.
Yes, it's also known as the Pacific Northwest.
Absolutely.
In your travels, talking of time gone by, you guys actually had an appearance at an event a couple of weeks ago.
Well, yes.
I gave a keynote address at a hacker conference known as SlopCon, P-H-O-T-Con, in Chicago.
Amazing conference.
My God.
I'd never been to one before.
It's been going on for some time.
I've been trying to attend for the past number of years.
Unfortunately, they always were scheduled for the first weekend of May.
That coincided with the five-year-old bike ride, which I enjoy being a part of.
Finally, they worked it out so that it was the second weekend of May, and that was in the year 2020.
We all know what happened in the spring of 2020.
It got rescheduled a whole bunch of times.
Finally, it was rescheduled for October of 2021.
A group of people.
It's weird talking to a crowd where everyone is wearing masks.
I said it looked like I was talking to a bunch of surgeons.
You don't really realize how strange it is until you do it.
Just talking to people who understand the importance of taking precautions, embracing science.
When I mention science, people applaud.
That's the kind of thing that really gives you some energy to keep going.
All throughout this trip that we've been taking, we've noticed the different ways that people respond.
People are very conscientious about it.
The Midwest, I love the people there, but they kind of act like there is no virus.
Everyone walks around without masks inside and out.
By everyone, I'm grossly exaggerating.
The exception being at this particular conference.
I felt this, and many of the other people attending spoke to this feeling of,
Yeah, we're doing this because we remember that we used to gather like this.
If we do the right thing, we can have a bit of fun and socialize and be with one another.
Which so many people had not been doing.
This was sort of a first outing since.
In that way, it helps it be a success.
There was a really good turnout.
A lot of people showed up.
Everyone had to show that they were vaccinated.
Everyone had to wear a mask throughout.
The exception being people who were on stage giving talks.
After that, we took the train out to Seattle.
Which was, as always, an amazing thing to do.
The people of Amtrak are very good as far as keeping everyone safe.
Making sure masks are worn on the train.
If you book a room.
My God, their roommates are so tiny.
Especially west of the Mississippi where there are double-decker trains.
If you can look past that, it's a very safe environment to be in.
Because you're enclosed and you're able to live your life there.
Walk around the train with a mask on.
When we got to Seattle, I noticed people were taking it even more seriously than in New York.
People wearing masks outside on the street.
Everywhere they go.
There's that.
Also, if you look at the statistics, Washington State has one of the best records.
Whatever they're doing, it's working.
Being out here in Seattle is always an amazing experience.
We've noticed a couple of things.
Wow.
Seattle is full of activists.
It's full of Black Lives Matter signs everywhere.
Just kind of this feeling that something is in the air.
That change is afoot.
And that people are busy doing things.
But then you also have a really serious problem with people who either don't have homes or have serious drug problems.
Not at all related to legalization of marijuana.
This is serious stuff.
And that needs to be dealt with.
There needs to be more support.
More funding for these kinds of programs.
Obviously.
Because you can't have this kind of situation.
There are projects.
I think there was one where people can get a hot shower if they're on the streets and not housed.
Little signs and attempts, I think, to organize and help people who are really in need.
But it is a far cry from the actual need when you really take a hard look at some of the areas.
And I'm talking visibly, audibly disturbed individuals in almost every direction you look in some places.
You will see someone who is in a very bad way and confrontational, aggravated, irritated.
And it's really difficult.
It's not a Democrat, Republican thing.
This is a human thing.
It's not pervasive in every part of the city.
But it's in enough parts of the city for it to be an issue.
And again, this is something that we as a society need to be addressing first and foremost everywhere.
Not just in Seattle.
The other thing that I think is unique to Seattle is super disturbing.
And that is Amazon.
Amazon is everywhere in ways that I had never imagined.
To give you an example, we rode a streetcar.
Amazing streetcar they have here in Seattle.
And the streetcar is branded.
At least one of the streetcars is branded with Amazon logos everywhere.
The stops are sponsored by Amazon.
I guess the whole streetcar line was created by Amazon.
I don't understand that.
It's just everywhere you see.
And you're passing Amazon buildings.
You're passing Amazon drop boxes.
But it gets worse.
Because the propaganda is just unbelievable.
Let's say you're streaming something on the internet.
A TV program perhaps.
And you know how you get the commercials?
You can't really skip past them.
But you get the commercials at the breaks.
You cannot avoid all the Amazon propaganda commercials.
The ones that say, we pay people $15 an hour.
We pay more in places where it's more expensive.
We are so great.
And you see people telling their life stories about how their tuition was paid for.
It's like being in the People's Republic of China.
And bowing down to a great leader.
I'm sorry.
The great leader is in North Korea.
But you know what I mean.
It's just something that maybe you don't see it when you live here.
I think people do though.
It's kind of frightening.
It's very offensive.
And I think it's going to get worse.
Kyle, you grew up here.
It just feels like they're taking over in so many ways.
Yeah, I think the biggest example was that trolley system.
Having sponsored stops.
And in many ways the construction of it was contested.
Or at least criticized.
Because the route itself catered specifically to Amazon.
In a lot of ways.
But the irony is now Amazon has given workers the indefinite ability to work remotely.
So all of the complexes and all of the office buildings that they wanted to fill up with employees.
Are probably going to sit vacant.
And it just goes to show you how much the city has bent over backwards.
And into all kinds of pretzel shapes to accommodate them.
And just as quickly they could just say.
Well, we don't care about this transportation anymore.
Because everyone is remote.
And we're not interested in these buildings anymore.
Because we don't need them.
And can much better afford to enjoy the productivity.
That they're realizing in virtual employment schemes.
So then it only begs the question.
What happens when these transportation projects and so forth.
Aren't extended, aren't completed.
Are just sort of run empty.
I'll tell you what happens.
Detroit happens.
With the auto industry.
When they abandoned that place.
And the roads fell into disrepair.
And there was no mass transit.
Amazon has been given that same level of power.
Yeah, we sat on that trolley and rode it.
As we rode as many systems and lengths of it.
We were looking into all of it at every turn.
But this particular line.
As we explored.
Was empty.
We were the only ones on it.
In the middle of the week.
In the middle of the day.
And it's pretty stark.
And telling.
And those are the things that we were thinking.
As we're taking it in.
Seeing how much sprawl.
Like urban sprawl.
Still continues.
And of course.
Looking at the timing between that.
And those who are unemployed.
And so forth.
We even were overhearing.
A parent.
Oh boy.
That had sort of an unruly child with her.
And well.
We were on a bus.
Heading past one of the fulfillment facilities.
And as sort of a threat.
To get this child to behave.
The mother.
Without skipping a beat.
I'll drop you off at Amazon.
Do you want to go work?
It's true.
I heard.
It's like that Charles Dickens type of a thing.
This is what you threaten your kids with.
Sending you to Amazon.
Where you'll be in slave labor.
It's funny.
But it really isn't.
And the thing is.
If I didn't love Seattle so much.
Maybe it wouldn't bother me so much.
To see how it's being treated by this corporation.
They're becoming so dependent on them.
That Amazon can do whatever it wants.
And it's very disturbing to see that happen.
And I just hope that a lot of this activism.
And revolutionary spirit.
Is focused upon that.
Because that is really a big threat.
Yeah.
Less angst.
And more organization.
And meaningful action.
This feels like.
I'm kind of hearing.
Of news from an alternative source.
I'm kind of hearing of news from an alternate universe.
Because a couple of years ago.
As we discussed on this program.
There was a push by Amazon.
To set up shop not too far from where we are.
In Queens.
And the city government.
Was bending over backwards.
To give them all sorts of breaks.
So they could build their building.
And have their hub here.
And again.
It was mooted at the last minute.
And they pulled out of it.
I mean I was a little bummed.
We didn't get the Queens helicopter back.
It's not just New York.
It's everywhere.
You know.
You see these centers opening everywhere.
And you know.
In a sane amount of space.
Perhaps it's okay.
But when you see it on every block.
When you see it on every bus.
When you see it on every TV program.
You realize.
This is not healthy.
It's not something that is capitalism.
It's not something that's democratic.
It's just all pervasive.
It's really sad.
And I just hope.
That we're able to do something about it.
We talk week after week.
About how these major companies.
Like Facebook.
Google.
Amazon.
My God.
They're all here aren't they?
Getting bigger and bigger.
Expecting more and more.
Whether it's presidential elections.
Or the economy.
We need to make sure that people keep control.
And that they never give it up.
The way they seem to be doing now.
I was just reading this story.
That one of you posted it to the list.
About how Amazon has been copying products.
And rigging search results.
To promote its own brands over in India.
Did you guys have more info on that?
Yeah, it was a big investigation by Reuters.
Which is a very fascinating story.
Very long.
But worth a look.
And yes, they are basically.
If a product succeeds on Amazon.
They will knock it off.
And promote their own version over yours.
And if you're an independent seller.
Who has to use Amazon.
Because you can't not use Amazon.
Because they're so monolithic.
And pervasive.
It's like your venue competing with you.
For your own sales.
And that's not a healthy state of affairs.
But they've been able to do so.
Mostly unchecked.
And are only starting to be slightly called out.
Based on stories like this.
But it's something they have the power to do.
They're the 900 pound gorilla.
Well, this happened.
Because of thousands of pages.
Of internal Amazon documents.
That Reuters got a hold of.
I'm not sure exactly.
How this was released to them.
But it shows that the company.
Ran a systematic campaign.
Of creating knock-offs.
And manipulating search results.
To boost its own product lines in India.
I'm not exactly sure.
If we have specific examples.
Of what a knock-off actually is.
I don't know if it's a counterfeit.
Or is it just something.
That looks similar.
You know what this reminds me a lot of.
Is the publishing copies.
I know we did a couple stories.
In the last year or so.
That had basically publishers.
Who had an account.
Or an item.
That was being distributed by Amazon.
And they were.
Printing and publishing copies.
That's counterfeit.
Is that what we're talking about here?
Yeah.
There are examples given in the Reuters story.
There is a company called William Sonoma.
Which is a furniture manufacturer.
Who filed photos.
In a federal court.
Of a chair of theirs.
With a very unusual looking design.
A desk of theirs.
That unfolds in a particular peculiar way.
And examples right next to them.
Of Amazon's own brand versions.
That came out afterward.
And looking at these in the catalog.
You could be forgiven for thinking.
They're the same product.
And it's basically.
They want to compete with you.
And put out their version.
Which will.
Because they control the advertising.
On their product listings.
They will advertise their own version over yours.
When people find it via searches.
When you said compete.
I hope you did air quotes.
Because it's not competing.
If you can undercut.
Because you run the store.
That's basically stealing an idea.
Taking it over.
Very true.
We now live in a generation.
Anything to say about this Alex?
Go ahead Alex.
I've always got something.
To say about anything.
If given the opportunity.
But.
What's all the big fuss about this?
Come on guys.
Isn't imitation.
The supremest form of flattery.
Isn't that what Amazon is doing.
They like these products so much.
They're going to make them themselves.
What's so wrong about that?
I hope you realize.
You're really going out.
You're going out on a ledge today.
Aren't you?
Yeah.
Obviously I was being sarcastic.
And facetious.
And many other things.
And disingenuous as well.
But look.
Obviously it's a very big problem.
Even I think major houses.
Like Williams Sonoma.
And others who have had their designs copied.
And they have rights to these designs.
They can assert them.
They're intellectual property.
And frankly they should.
The problem with IP rights too.
Is that if you don't use them.
You can tend to lose them.
If you sit on your hands.
If you sit on your rights.
Then you don't have the right to assert them.
Much later on.
You can't delay with these types of things.
I don't think there's a point of litigation.
Over this type of activity.
What I think could further complicate things.
Is if I understand it correctly.
This is happening outside of the United States.
Is that correct?
Yes.
This is mostly India.
This is talked about in this story.
That's an interesting wrinkle to me.
Because I've been involved in some IP litigation.
In India.
And it's a bit of a mess.
Frankly.
This is going to be interesting.
To see how it shakes out.
And perhaps they're strategically choosing.
Jurisdictions within which.
It may be difficult.
Or at least more difficult.
For designers and brand owners.
To assert their rights against Amazon.
So we'll see.
We'll see how this shakes out.
I think it's going to be an interesting legal battle.
As I was saying.
We live in a generation where most people know.
What the deal is when you sell something online now.
It's no longer a novelty.
In the age of things like eBay.
And Craigslist.
And all sorts of online marketplaces.
In which people can list things for sale.
Whether it's a one-off.
Or whether it's something you want to make your living selling.
And the individual seller.
Has very little power.
When it comes to competing with massive corporations.
That want to take what makes the small seller special.
And just knock it off.
Well I wish they would knock it off.
Because it's just making things terrible.
On so many fronts.
And I don't like constantly demonizing one entity.
Because there's so much room to go around.
To demonize so many.
But boy.
Amazon is really.
It's turning into a monster.
I don't want to sound hysterical here.
But all these independent stores.
We walk through.
You know.
We walk through.
Where was that?
Chicago.
Where there was an Amazon bookstore.
And you know.
I walked into this Amazon bookstore.
I felt so dirty.
Because it wasn't a bookstore.
It was what put the bookstores.
Out of business.
Because they're undercutting.
Because they have more access.
And the bookstores they put out of business.
Are the chains that put the independent bookstores.
Out of business.
So we're two levels removed.
From where we should be.
With independent business people.
Doing their own thing.
It's a really sickening situation.
But I just hope.
That our individual spirit.
Is able to be resurrected here.
And that we can do something.
To fight this.
Because this is super unhealthy.
It's funny you mention that.
We got our mail today.
Gila what did we get?
The Amazon Christmas toy catalog.
The paper Amazon Christmas toy catalog.
Which is.
I mean addressed to current residents.
So neither of us actually got it.
But it's.
You know.
It's perfect bound.
It's on heavy paper.
That it is.
It's fascinating.
You know.
It's like the Sears catalog.
From a long time ago.
Oh and there's paper dolls in it.
I think there's a lot going on.
Some activities in here.
Stickers.
Oh cool.
But it's interesting because.
Emmanuel what I'm hearing you describe.
Is like an old school company town.
And there's.
You know been a lot of businesses in Seattle.
Over the years I'm assuming.
And no one's really taken it to that.
Extent again I'm assuming.
I mean are there Amazon banks.
I'm very serious.
They do have Amazon pay.
Which is a payment processor.
So that's a thing.
Right.
But you know I'm thinking about.
When mining companies used to pay in script.
So you didn't have money.
You had company money.
Right.
We keep seeing all these Amazon branded things.
I suppose Amazon 2.
Or was it Amazon 1.
Or 10.
Or Amazon Go.
Which is what I want to say to them.
I don't know what these things are.
But they're just everywhere.
You just find another Amazon something.
And it's spooky.
Yeah you can't even tell what the product is.
You're just like.
Okay this does something.
Tangentially related to.
Whatever their core business is this week.
I mean it is truly bizarre.
Unless you're in on this.
Collective.
Hallucination.
You don't really.
You don't really understand.
What they're useful for.
And they do that through.
Opening a bookstore.
That's a parody of the bookstores they killed.
And sending out catalogs.
That's a parody of the catalogs they killed.
And they use this money to.
Send famous blowhards into space.
I guess.
What gets me is.
The space part I like.
Because I like exploring.
And I like pushing technology.
And I'm actually one of the few people.
Who thinks it was cool that William Shatner.
Went up into space.
But not this way.
Not using this kind of.
Just horrible method.
Of taking over.
And putting others out of business.
That's just so wrong.
But let's move on.
Because we can talk.
All day about Amazon.
And it's evil.
You have to come to Seattle.
To really see it in action.
And just propaganda commercials.
And they're on TV too.
If you turn on a TV channel.
You won't go a few minutes.
Without an Amazon commercial.
Popping up saying how great they are.
And how everybody should work for them.
Just remember they're all cutthroat.
Until their necks are on the line.
Yeah.
Facebook.
They're also here.
But I understand.
Maybe you guys know more about this.
Because I can't get past the headline of this.
I'm just laughing too hard.
But Facebook is planning to rebrand the company.
With a new name.
A new name.
Like Washington football team.
Or something.
The sub headline.
Mark Zuckerberg wants to be known.
For building the metaverse.
I said to myself.
Silicon Valley is back on the air.
Because this is so absurd.
So crazy.
So ridiculous.
I kind of want to see where it goes.
Are they really going to call Facebook something else?
And think that's going to solve anything?
Yeah.
The artist formerly known as Facebook.
There is a lot of chatter around this story.
Some of it seems to believe.
That Facebook is going to rebrand itself.
Metaverse.
Which would be hilarious if it happened.
Because for those unfamiliar.
The metaverse is a term coined in.
Very dystopian science fiction.
Snow crash by Neal Stephenson.
Somewhat similar to ready player one.
Which came out more recently.
And is not very good.
A metaverse is basically.
A VR shared reality type thing.
Where the real world.
Outside is very dystopian.
Everything is broken down.
Everything is terrible.
And they want the metaverse to escape.
And live some kind of enjoyable life.
Because there is nothing for them in reality.
And so if Facebook.
Is like actually deliberately.
Taking on that name.
That would be really funny.
On certain levels.
Alex you are kind of chuckling.
Hang on.
Go ahead Alex.
Oh sure.
I think it's real.
I think it's a real thing.
But the way Rob had described it.
I think it's accurate.
I think there is going to be valuable properties here.
If you combine.
All of the craziness.
That we have been exposed to.
With respect to NFTs.
These non fungible tokens.
Cryptocurrency.
Blockchain technology.
Pandemics.
Mask wearing.
The political climate.
Riots.
It's conspiring I feel like.
To make the online world.
Seem a little bit more attractive.
Than our physical lives.
And I think that.
What Facebook is doing is.
I wouldn't call it prescient.
Because I just think it's really a sign of the times.
It's a zeitgeist.
But it's a natural progression.
To this other world.
That is going to have valuable properties.
And I think a lot of.
Value in interacting.
With each other.
Also you think about.
How horrendous it's been to.
Constantly be in.
Zoom meeting after zoom meeting.
Or maybe every once in a while.
You change it up.
And you have a Webex or Microsoft teams.
Or a Google meet up.
It's just been exhausting.
So to have an alternative space.
Where you can meet people.
Something that's centralized.
Something that's.
To a certain extent regulated.
And moderated.
Is going to be valuable.
And so it doesn't shock me at all.
This is where they go.
It's the same thing though.
It's the same thing.
You're just looking at a screen.
Communicating with icons or avatars.
And I think real life.
Has been screwed up a lot.
By social media.
But I think real life still.
Holds a significant edge.
Is it a mask or no mask?
Maybe.
It feels similar now.
But I think as technology.
Is going to evolve.
And we're going to be part of this metaverse.
We may be utilizing certain.
VR types of technology.
To fully immerse ourselves.
In this metaverse.
And where the meet space.
Becomes completely untenable.
Or perhaps because of climate change.
And other horrendous things.
We may be much better.
And much more enjoyable.
And we may have more freedom.
To do things online.
I don't think we're going to be.
Living our entire lives like this.
In some matrix focused.
Dystopia.
I certainly hope not.
But I see there being.
A lot of value.
In where Facebook is heading.
I think it is to a certain extent.
Laughable because.
The idea of rebranding.
May help them escape.
Some of their residual.
Brand dilution.
From things like Cambridge Analytica.
The last round of whistleblowers.
Coming out all of this.
That's been happening to the company.
Really for the last four or five years.
Since the 2016 election.
But there is.
I think a lot of validity.
To this type of move.
And I think we're going to see.
Other online platforms.
Making this migration.
And Facebook will be the bellwether for that.
But I think there's also a significant.
Difference in what they're trying to accomplish here.
Because if we're looking at the article.
From the verge.
Which Rob very helpfully has up here.
The rebrand would likely position.
The blue Facebook app.
As one of many products under a parent company.
Overseeing groups like Instagram.
WhatsApp, Oculus and more.
To become a slightly different entity.
I think it's trying to spin it out differently.
In the same way that AOL.
Time Warner.
Had AOL and Time Warner cable.
And CNN.
And look how all that ended up.
But we were talking this morning.
Did you know today is a Facebook holiday?
I'm very serious.
What in the world is a Facebook holiday?
Thank you for asking Emmanuel.
I'll tell you.
Today is international pronoun day.
And.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So this morning I said to Rob.
What do you think is more insidious?
A Hallmark holiday.
Which is designed to part people with their money.
Or a Facebook holiday.
Which is designed to part people with their PII.
Because when they have.
International son's day.
And everyone's posting pictures of themselves with their kids.
Or international daughter's day.
Or international siblings day.
Or international pronoun day.
And people are just like.
Oh I'm going to share this cute picture.
And you know.
The way that this Facebook.
The tentacles of Facebook.
Or whatever metaverse horizon.
Whatever this company is going to become.
The way that it allows its tentacles.
Or we allow its tentacles.
Into every area of life.
I think that is really the insidious part.
Of what this is all going to do.
And when everything is tied.
The maps of what companies own.
What food brands.
And everything goes back to four center circles.
Ultimately I think that is where we are headed.
Right?
So there is going to be the Amazon octopus.
The Facebook octopus.
The Twitter octopus.
And everything is going to belong to one of the.
Well more than octopus.
But you know what I mean.
I kind of hope.
Go ahead Rob.
I kind of hope.
They do call themselves metaverse.
Because.
Imagine your grandparents.
Saying.
Hey do you see the newest pictures.
Of our cruise on metaverse.
I want to hear them say that.
I want to hear.
Everybody.
In the entire world.
That uses these services.
Start referring to it.
In such a cyberpunk.
Type of way.
This announcement.
To me isn't too surprising.
I have a lot of different takes on it.
But a couple things that strike me.
Just in our conversation here.
First I think the reorganization.
Is an active.
Defense move.
To shield the board.
And the primary actors.
In Facebook.
From what they know is coming.
And generally protect them.
In the liability that.
They're responsible for.
Or be found to be responsible for.
In the future.
If they're broken up.
In any way.
Or there's hearings and so forth.
They've been to enough hearings.
That they would not be.
I think.
Given as much leeway.
Because there's so much on the record.
So I think this is a.
Purely a strategy to.
Distance the parent actors.
From Facebook as an entity.
Spin off all these other little things.
In much the same way.
Other conglomerates do.
To try different ventures.
And if they fail.
They don't actually.
They don't actually affect the principle.
Of the corporation.
But that aside.
I think this platform.
Is itself probably going to become.
The new opioid.
You've seen what they've done.
To get people's eyes.
And attention.
Now they actually want to be.
On top of your face.
And get you addicted.
To being in this verse.
Versus real life.
And I think you're going to have.
Profound effects.
People who are even less functional.
In normal real life situations.
Because they're conditioned.
Not to be a part of that anymore.
And unless people are.
Using this technology.
To actively affect the real world.
In positive ways.
I don't see it as much more.
Than gambling.
And those sorts of vices.
And on top of that.
I just feel like.
Yeah.
It is itself.
You know.
It's a nice.
Distraction.
In most regards.
But we'll have to see.
How it plays out.
And the prediction.
I would finally make.
Is that they're.
Going to pay people to be there.
Because it will not be a network.
It will not be desirable.
Unless people are there.
So expect celebrities.
And people to start.
Appearing there.
In like sort of weird collaborations.
And oh isn't this kind of.
New and different.
And they're also selling me.
Some kind of head gear.
Hardware or something.
That works with my phone.
And then maybe they'll phase out.
Or send invites via Facebook.
To get people on to this thing.
To seed it.
And continue to seed it.
With more and more people.
And basically astroturf it.
Into existence.
The interesting part of this.
I don't know about VR so much as it seems.
Because yes Facebook's in the VR business.
They own Oculus.
Which is a popular VR program.
Platform.
But the tentacles.
As was being described.
Are kind of already out there.
Facebook has already been.
Experts in getting people.
To use crappy interfaces.
To access crappy services.
They have Facebook.
And how many people are Facebook famous.
How many people are Instagram famous.
And draw other people into Instagram.
To follow their celebrity feeds of things.
And people have been.
Signing up to do these.
Without getting paid.
They have been signing up to join the service.
Put their personally identifying information in there.
Feed the PII machine.
That actually powers.
Where all the money comes from for Facebook.
And they've been doing this willingly.
Because they like the things it connects them to.
And one of our biggest criticisms of Facebook.
And Instagram for years and years.
Has always been how they want to centralize things.
And have everything go through them.
Like why would people use email.
When there's Facebook messages.
Why would people use third party.
Or distributed chat platforms.
When there's Facebook chat.
Why do people keep their own pictures.
If you can upload them to Facebook.
Exactly.
And Google does the same thing.
And other services do the same thing.
And we have an entire.
People who use social media type things.
Are already well versed in.
Oh I'll sign up for this thing.
I'll get to use it for free.
It will feed me ads.
It will collect my data.
But that all seems to be a good trade off for people so far.
And if you add you know.
It's just going to keep going.
You have no right to complain.
Because you're not paying anything for this.
Absolutely.
You're not the customer.
You're the product that's being sold to the customers.
You know the personal information banks.
Like Cambridge Analytica and all the rest of them.
And so this is a thing.
That they have been doing.
That they're very good at.
And they will only keep getting better at.
Go ahead Alex.
Anybody have any more digs to get in.
For Facebook.
Because we're kind of running out of time.
Well one insight.
That I'd like to share too.
And it's not necessarily a dig at Facebook.
And on this type of.
I guess innovation.
Is one way to phrase it.
But it's an evolution.
In a lot of respects.
And what remains to be seen.
And what's unknown right now.
Is what kind of data.
This type of system.
Will generate about us.
Because it's not necessarily going to be.
The same type of data.
That you would ordinarily.
Be sharing with a social media platform.
Just on the internet.
Or from a mobile device.
This is going to be.
Data about our movements.
Perhaps data maybe even about our health.
Or about spatial relationships.
And there's going to be.
An entirely new classification of data.
That is going to be shared.
With all of these platforms.
That right now.
Is completely unregulated.
So the more they venture.
And I say they.
Facebook, Twitter, Google.
Whoever the platform is.
That is venturing into this territory.
The more they are going into uncharted waters.
With respect to.
What they can do with the data.
That they are collecting.
And that can be extremely powerful.
Especially at the early onset.
Of this type of venture.
Before.
Legislatures catch up.
With this type of thing.
Before we even really know.
What we are collecting.
Or whether there's any harms.
That can result from this type of data collection.
So without some kind of overarching framework.
Or even knowledge about.
What's going to be collected.
This is completely uncharted.
It has a tremendous amount of.
Potential for profit.
And also for abuse.
So I think it's something that.
We and a lot of others.
Should be watching carefully.
I want to read an email that we got.
It's via email.
OTH at 2600.com
We're still not able to take your phone calls.
That's still on hiatus.
But we want to hear from you.
Email us.
Tweet at us.
Everything else.
So Bob from Minneapolis.
Our frequent caller.
Wrote to us after our show two weeks ago.
And wrote thank you for the show last week.
I will however say that Facebook.
At the end of the day is a corporation.
They do everything morally.
And they stretch the rule of law.
If they care about anything.
It's the entrepreneur culture.
That has taken over America.
And perhaps the world.
In some ways.
It is a logical conclusion.
To capitalism.
So none of Facebook's antics.
Should be a surprise.
They are the penultimate.
Next generation business.
They buy other businesses.
The discussion about mental health.
And the mental health crisis.
That has many causes.
And social media plays a big role in that.
Online social media platforms.
Are one of the most useless things.
The rabid entrepreneur culture has given us.
Look at ring doorbell for example.
Their marketing campaign.
Is geared toward rich people of means.
That live in very safe neighborhoods.
That are convinced by ring.
That their neighborhoods are safe.
So they must have ring doorbells.
Thank you very much for your thoughts.
Everyone else.
If you have any thoughts about things we are talking about.
Email us at OTH at 2600.com.
I would like to turn to another story.
We have to cover this.
This story was meant for us.
Mike Parsons.
The governor of Missouri.
Perhaps you have heard about him.
This is the guy.
He is the guy.
Who basically responded to a discovery.
That his state's department of elementary.
And secondary education.
Was leaking teachers private information.
Via the source code.
Of a webpage.
Around 100,000 security numbers.
Were able to be exposed.
When the web app was loaded.
In a user's browser.
And the web app.
Was able to be exposed.
And the web app.
Was able to be exposed.
And the web app.
Was able to be exposed.
And the web app.
Was able to be exposed.
And the web app.
Was able to be exposed.
And the web app.
Was able to be exposed.
And the web app.
Was able to be exposed.
And the web app.
Was able to be exposed.
And the web app.
Was able to be exposed.
And basically what happened.
Is that a reporter.
At the St. Louis Post Dispatch.
Noticed this.
And basically.
Told them about it.
Contacted the Missouri Department of Education.
And held off.
Doing a story about this.
So that officials could fix it.
And you know.
That's above and beyond.
What you need to do.
At 2600 oftentimes.
Is publish something that will embarrass the corporation.
Without warning them first.
Without telling them.
Oh this is how you fix it.
Because you shouldn't have gotten into that situation in the first place.
You were entrusted with data.
And this is what happened.
These guys they went further.
They went to the Board of Education.
And said yeah you have a problem here.
And then afterwards they wrote a story about it.
The governor.
Of Missouri.
Is demanding.
The prosecution.
Of this reporter.
For and I quote.
Decoding HTML source code.
When they reported the data.
Oh my God.
It's clear he has no comprehension whatsoever.
As to how a web page works.
But basically.
You can hit F12.
On your computer.
And see source code.
That's all you have to do.
In fact somebody tweeted this.
Come and take it.
All caps.
NRA style.
I don't know.
Where this story is going to go.
It kind of illustrates.
Or it very well illustrates.
The massive gap.
Between people who.
Understand and operate technology.
And the people who make our laws.
In this country.
And it's scary sometimes.
There are people who could literally be in prison.
For this kind of mentality.
And I wonder.
How many have been.
What's extraordinary about this too.
Is that this hit social media.
And of course went instantly viral.
Among people who know what it means.
And people were trying to correct.
Governor Parson on his Twitter account.
Which is GovParsonMO.
And he doubled down.
He said we want to be clear.
This hack was more than a simple right click.
And he goes the facts.
And then went a step further.
To convert and decode that data.
In order to obtain Missouri teachers personal information.
That is wrong.
He is completely wrong about what happened here.
And he is just doubling down, tripling down.
Quadrupling down.
Not accepting that he is completely incorrect.
About how this and the web.
And websites work.
And the voices.
In response to these tweets.
Are mostly from.
A lot of people in the hacker community.
And things like that.
And everyone is trying to correct him.
And he is just not hearing it.
So this is the guy.
That is in control of the state of Missouri.
The show me state.
And he is showing his whole ass on the net over this.
Let's stop trying to correct him.
And just let him talk.
Let's keep on talking governor.
We want to hear more.
Go ahead Alex.
Chiming in on this.
Rather interesting story here.
I think a lot of this is just.
A fundamental misunderstanding.
Like you mentioned Emmanuel.
Of HTML.
Hypertext markup language.
And I think a lot of this probably relates.
To the fact that.
HTML.
On a webpage is called.
HTML source code.
Because the governor is obviously conflating.
Proprietary source code with public.
HTML source code that is available.
Like you mentioned by pressing F12.
From within your browser.
And anybody can see the inner workings.
Of any webpage.
In fact.
That is the premise on which the web was built.
Is read access.
To all of this data.
On web servers all around the world.
Without having read access to these types of things.
We would have no web.
So it is a fundamental misunderstanding.
I think of the technology at issue.
But more to the point.
And I think this is a really critical issue here.
Is that the reporter.
In the news outlet here.
Had really followed.
I think all of the legal.
And ethical touch points.
That relate to the disclosure.
Of some kind of vulnerability.
They found the vulnerability.
The reporter found the vulnerability.
He then verified the vulnerability.
Not just by asking his colleagues.
By going over and finding.
Cyber security experts.
Web development experts.
They then updated and verified.
The fact that yes.
There were exposed social security numbers.
Within the HTML source code of these websites.
He then disclosed the vulnerability.
To the state.
And then waited for the state.
To remediate the vulnerability.
And not just remediate the vulnerability.
That the reporter had found.
But to go and look for other problems.
Of the same sort.
Across the entire state.
Of that state.
Because.
If this was a problem.
With respect to teachers.
It could have been a problem.
Let's say with respect to lawyers.
Or some kind of other regulated profession.
And only then.
After all of this was done.
Did they run a story.
About this vulnerability.
After it was already corrected.
So I don't see there.
Having been much more.
For the reporter to have done here.
They've really done everything right.
And yet.
The governor has come after him.
And I think.
This is particularly problematic as well.
Because the information.
Ecosystem that we have right now.
Is just so.
Already fragile.
It's so fragile.
And this kind of.
I think at this point.
When you have as Rob you mentioned.
This flood.
Twitter trying to correct him.
Trying to educate the governor.
This type of disingenuous recrimination.
Against a journalist.
For journalistic activity.
Is just absolutely reckless.
I mean to the point where.
I think it can have.
A real negative and spillover effect.
On our press freedoms.
On fundamental freedoms.
Guaranteed by the first amendment.
And it's sad commentary.
That a governor of the state.
Has to deal with this type of massive erosion.
Of press freedoms.
Absolutely.
And it's well known.
There is this concept of responsible disclosure.
That is well known to all in cyber security.
Any sort of digital space.
This reporter did everything right.
Did it the way you're supposed to do it.
And for that they're being labeled a criminal.
By the governor of the state.
And it is a ridiculous situation.
And F12 is now a meme.
In pretty much.
In the replies to anything he posts.
So it's going to be interesting.
To see where this goes.
And if the person who is in charge of advising.
This governor on cyber security.
Has a job for much longer.
Or maybe gets a nap or something.
But in any case.
This will be interesting to look at.
And we are going to have to.
I think wrap things up very soon.
We're running out of time.
We're taking your phone calls off the hook over time.
It's still on hiatus.
While our colleagues are running around the country.
So email us.
OTH at 2600 dot com.
Or send us tweets.
At Hacker Radio Show.
Or send us toots on Hacker Radio Show.
At Mastodon dot social.
And get in touch with us.
Tell us what's on your mind.
And we will be back next week.
Yes go ahead.
Just to give you a closing.
We just found out that we're about to get something.
Known as a bomb cyclone.
I think is what it's called Kyle.
Yeah there's a bunch of rain.
Coming for the west coast.
And it's going to be relentless.
So we're putting on galoshes.
And preparing ourselves.
For this bomb cyclone of water.
Which is sorely needed.
In many parts of the country.
It may even lead to some snowfall.
And that's.
Always exciting for us.
We love the crazy weather.
Yeah I just can't believe they have a bomb cyclone.
But that's how it is out here.
That is fascinating.
And on that note.
We will be back next week.
Everyone have a good week.
OTH at 2600 dot com.
Music.
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Yeah, yeah!
We're monsters!
Ooh!
Magic and technology
Who don't cause a chance
Electricity will make it go
Science!
Who's had a dose of a
Freakin' dose, baby
You better call
We're monsters!
Ooh!
Go science!
Ooh!
Pictures from a magazine
Diagrams and charts
Mending broken hearts
And making
Go science!
Go science!
Something like the recipe
Let me tell you something
Rusting makes me feel good
My creation
Is it real?
It's my creation
I'm afraid I'm gonna
Say I'm patient
I'm a ghost
There's flesh and blood
I ain't afraid of no ghost
Oh, Gary!
Don't get caught alone, oh no
Back off, man
I'm a scientist
We're monsters!
When it comes through your door
Unless you just want some more
I think you better call
We're monsters!
Ooh!
Who you gonna call?
We're monsters!
I've never seen before
Who you gonna call?
Go science!
We're monsters!
Not what teachers said to do
Bits and pieces
Bits and pieces
Bits of my creation
I will never call
Call me anything
Call me your song
In your head
Don't get caught alone
No hesitation
Your heart is gold
There's flesh and blood
I do not know
There's something very important I forgot to tell you
What?
Don't cross the streams
Total protonic reversal
Right, that's bad