[00:00.000 --> 00:05.500]  The program was Economic Update with Richard Wolff, heard Wednesdays at 6.30 p.m.
[00:05.580 --> 00:08.360]  right after the WBAI Evening News.
[00:09.240 --> 00:11.520]  Stay tuned for Off the Hook coming up.
[00:11.520 --> 00:13.240]  It is now 7 p.m.
[00:28.400 --> 00:31.540]  And the time is just about 7 p.m.
[00:31.760 --> 00:38.540]  You're listening to WBAI 99.5 FM here in New York, WBAI.org everywhere.
[00:39.120 --> 00:42.860]  And it's just about time for another exciting edition of Off the Hook.
[01:35.500 --> 01:37.900]  And a very good evening to you.
[01:38.000 --> 01:40.060]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:40.640 --> 01:41.300]  Rob T.
[01:41.440 --> 01:44.260]  Firefly here with you, and I am joined here by Gila.
[01:44.460 --> 01:44.880]  Good evening.
[01:45.580 --> 01:49.980]  And out in Skypeland, in parts all over the place, we have Alex.
[01:51.340 --> 01:52.960]  Good evening from Chicago.
[01:53.840 --> 01:56.740]  And in parts unknown, we have Emmanuel and Kyle.
[01:58.180 --> 01:58.700]  Yeah.
[01:58.940 --> 02:00.300]  Wait, we're in Skypeland now?
[02:00.500 --> 02:02.060]  You guys are still in Skypeland.
[02:03.120 --> 02:06.980]  Yeah, I think that's coming in loud and clear on this end.
[02:07.800 --> 02:09.100]  I couldn't tell the difference.
[02:09.340 --> 02:12.560]  I felt like I'm present.
[02:13.100 --> 02:13.920]  How are you?
[02:15.740 --> 02:17.160]  We're present as well.
[02:17.360 --> 02:18.220]  We're in the moment.
[02:18.700 --> 02:19.200]  We're...
[02:19.200 --> 02:20.500]  Still dancing to the theme song.
[02:20.500 --> 02:20.980]  Yeah.
[02:21.720 --> 02:27.320]  Yeah, we're dancing to the theme song, which Skypeland cannot hear because of the way everything's looped around here.
[02:27.340 --> 02:32.860]  But we've got all kinds of other interesting things going on besides this theme song, though it's a very good theme song.
[02:33.580 --> 02:45.400]  It's totally, totally magical, and we're just wanting to say hello to everyone from this magical land, and you all sound wonderful, so it has worked.
[02:45.620 --> 02:46.320]  I'm confused.
[02:46.500 --> 02:47.400]  Where is everybody?
[02:48.240 --> 02:50.620]  Because obviously Kyle and I are not in New York.
[02:51.860 --> 02:52.280]  Nope.
[02:52.920 --> 02:54.400]  Gila and I are in New York.
[02:54.460 --> 02:55.220]  We are in New York.
[02:55.420 --> 02:56.660]  In our standard home base.
[02:57.680 --> 02:58.040]  And...
[02:58.040 --> 02:58.600]  Alex worked.
[02:59.000 --> 02:59.200]  Yeah.
[03:01.020 --> 03:02.300]  I'm not in New York.
[03:02.300 --> 03:03.660]  That's correct, Emanuel.
[03:04.340 --> 03:05.440]  I don't see you here.
[03:07.260 --> 03:08.440]  I'm sorry, what was it?
[03:09.120 --> 03:11.540]  I don't see you here, because we're not in New York either.
[03:12.280 --> 03:12.760]  Yeah.
[03:13.360 --> 03:16.120]  I'm actually in Chicago today, so I'm...
[03:16.740 --> 03:17.220]  Yeah.
[03:17.940 --> 03:19.920]  I'm over here just for the day.
[03:20.160 --> 03:23.800]  I flew out this morning, flew a fly back to New York tomorrow.
[03:24.280 --> 03:25.360]  Oh, you just...
[03:25.360 --> 03:25.840]  Yeah.
[03:26.120 --> 03:27.800]  You just missed us two weeks ago.
[03:28.520 --> 03:29.380]  I know.
[03:29.580 --> 03:29.960]  I know.
[03:29.960 --> 03:33.800]  I feel like I'm eating your dust, so to speak, here.
[03:34.720 --> 03:40.080]  But weirdly enough, I also have a ThoughtCon t-shirt on this evening.
[03:40.320 --> 03:49.460]  So, in honor of your keynote and that wonderful little Midwestern conference, I've done this type of apparel this evening.
[03:50.000 --> 03:52.500]  How did you know I was wearing a ThoughtCon t-shirt?
[03:52.500 --> 03:55.180]  But there's no video, and I am definitely wearing it.
[03:56.200 --> 03:57.180]  Wait, hang on a second.
[03:57.260 --> 03:58.540]  You're wearing a ThoughtCon t-shirt?
[03:59.080 --> 04:00.120]  I certainly am.
[04:00.520 --> 04:02.420]  I'm also wearing a ThoughtCon t-shirt.
[04:03.780 --> 04:04.940]  Did you guys call each other?
[04:05.020 --> 04:05.720]  This is so embarrassing.
[04:05.900 --> 04:06.580]  It's a party full of...
[04:06.580 --> 04:07.960]  No, I feel like, you know...
[04:08.540 --> 04:12.640]  Usually when we coordinate outfits, you know, we do it, you know, way ahead of time.
[04:12.640 --> 04:15.460]  But, you know, this just happens to be...
[04:15.460 --> 04:17.860]  This is the pinnacle of serendipity, I would say.
[04:18.220 --> 04:19.360]  I'm not changing.
[04:20.540 --> 04:21.060]  Yeah.
[04:21.460 --> 04:22.360]  Don't change.
[04:23.120 --> 04:23.360]  All right.
[04:23.580 --> 04:24.220]  Yeah, I'll take that.
[04:24.880 --> 04:27.100]  Kyle and I are in western Washington.
[04:27.560 --> 04:33.420]  In fact, we just visited the rainforest in western Washington.
[04:33.420 --> 04:35.160]  Have you guys ever been to a rainforest?
[04:36.800 --> 04:37.300]  Yes.
[04:37.680 --> 04:37.880]  No.
[04:38.100 --> 04:41.040]  I've been to a forest in the rain, but never to an actual rainforest.
[04:41.640 --> 04:46.220]  I have been to the rainforest at the Henry Dorley Zoo in Omaha, Nebraska.
[04:46.960 --> 04:49.920]  Not a naturally occurring rainforest, but it works.
[04:50.680 --> 04:53.060]  Well, yeah, we can talk about that.
[04:53.440 --> 04:55.140]  Kyle, why don't you explain the rainforest?
[04:55.460 --> 04:58.020]  Because I'm still pretty much in awe of it.
[04:58.140 --> 05:04.240]  And I strongly recommend anyone who can get out this way to see this.
[05:04.240 --> 05:06.820]  So it will change around just about everything.
[05:07.120 --> 05:12.080]  Well, I just would say it's a different type of terrain.
[05:12.660 --> 05:17.260]  It is an important part of the hydrologic system.
[05:17.800 --> 05:27.160]  And it kind of speaks to the interrelatedness of different species, both plants and animals, in the forests.
[05:27.760 --> 05:32.140]  Some forests are way up high and others are in lower areas.
[05:32.140 --> 05:36.280]  Others have different attributes in this one.
[05:36.520 --> 05:38.140]  And then there's lots of rainforests.
[05:38.800 --> 05:39.720]  Don't get me wrong.
[05:39.820 --> 05:41.140]  There's tropical rainforests.
[05:42.320 --> 05:47.480]  There's even within the area we've been exploring, there's many of them.
[05:47.740 --> 05:54.100]  So it is usually best experienced on a rainy day because that's what it's all about.
[05:54.100 --> 05:58.700]  And we definitely found the right storm to go and explore.
[05:58.700 --> 06:04.260]  Yeah, this was a bomb cyclone, which I understand New York also just got hit with a bomb cyclone.
[06:04.360 --> 06:06.260]  So I guess bomb cyclones are in the news.
[06:06.620 --> 06:08.260]  But we were in the rainforest.
[06:08.260 --> 06:10.820]  It was pouring rain pretty much the whole time.
[06:11.100 --> 06:13.240]  But I didn't mind at all.
[06:13.540 --> 06:16.360]  The trees were just so spectacular.
[06:17.040 --> 06:20.560]  We went to a rainforest called the Hull Rainforest, H-O-H.
[06:21.880 --> 06:23.940]  And we went to, what was it called?
[06:24.020 --> 06:25.580]  The Hall of Moss or something?
[06:25.840 --> 06:32.760]  Yeah, one of the trails is called, affectionately, I believe, and officially, the Hall of Mosses.
[06:32.760 --> 07:00.900]  And it shows you how moss and lichen and various forms of fungi form on tree limbs, how various trees will grow out of what's called a nursery log, and that kind of strange root system and how all that interacts and behaves on the forest floor.
[07:00.900 --> 07:10.680]  And you can really learn a lot about your surroundings, especially with the parks and all the educational stuff that you can get on a marked trail.
[07:10.800 --> 07:14.340]  So we did one hike, and it was spectacular.
[07:14.560 --> 07:15.360]  It was really, really fun.
[07:15.900 --> 07:19.820]  We didn't see any elk, which apparently are in these parts.
[07:20.000 --> 07:24.620]  But we did see a whole lot of vegetation, a whole lot of trees, a whole lot of the ecosystem.
[07:24.880 --> 07:28.900]  And you realize this just goes on for a vast expanse.
[07:29.760 --> 07:33.100]  It's huge, and it's vital.
[07:33.380 --> 07:34.720]  It's vital for our planet.
[07:35.000 --> 07:40.940]  And it's kind of ironic, too, that we escaped to a rainforest to get away from Amazon.
[07:41.460 --> 07:50.540]  Because, you know, I mean, as you mentioned last week, Amazon is just everywhere in the Seattle area, and increasingly in other parts of the world, too.
[07:51.220 --> 07:53.020]  So they were not in the rainforest?
[07:54.360 --> 07:55.420]  Not yet, no.
[07:56.300 --> 07:59.540]  And we want to keep Amazon out of this rainforest, for sure.
[07:59.800 --> 08:01.800]  But you can bet they've...
[08:01.800 --> 08:04.760]  They're probably figuring out how to put a warehouse there or something.
[08:05.380 --> 08:06.340]  It's really...
[08:06.860 --> 08:07.800]  It's really sad.
[08:07.920 --> 08:25.340]  But, okay, before we move into the negative, again, please, if you have a chance to go to one of these rainforests that are in western Washington, or elsewhere, in Omaha, perhaps, definitely take the opportunity and do that, because it really is awe-inspiring.
[08:25.600 --> 08:37.280]  Yeah, you really get a greater appreciation for the waterways and the things like fisheries and all those important things, economic or otherwise, they're all related.
[08:37.660 --> 08:45.780]  And this stuff's so important to our natural surroundings and our overall health as a species.
[08:46.260 --> 08:55.080]  And if I could just mention one other thing, too, we will be heading back towards New York and we're going to be driving, but we don't know how we're going to be driving yet.
[08:55.160 --> 08:57.020]  In other words, we don't know what route we'll be taking.
[08:57.240 --> 09:02.840]  And we're open to suggestion if listeners have things that they think we should see.
[09:02.840 --> 09:23.260]  And by things that they think we should see, unusual things, you know, weird, not so much tourist-type things, but just strange towns or places where there are strange habits or just weird kind of thing that we might appreciate.
[09:24.180 --> 09:31.700]  We're not really going to be stopping in and visiting with people because of all the COVID crap that continues to go on.
[09:32.420 --> 09:37.320]  But we will be making plenty of observations and doing some recordings as well.
[09:37.480 --> 09:49.260]  So if you have suggestions as to a particular path we should take or something we should see on the way back from Washington to New York, and again, we can pretty much go any route.
[09:49.260 --> 09:59.440]  We can go to the south, we can go to the north, we can go in the middle or zigzag or whatever, write to us, OTH at 2600.com with your suggestions.
[09:59.900 --> 10:06.260]  And if we stop in something you recommend, we will give you credit and make a recording.
[10:07.100 --> 10:10.020]  This is a very interesting opportunity, too, for listeners.
[10:10.220 --> 10:22.480]  Like, not only if you think there are interesting things that Emanuel and Kyle should see on their travels, but if you just want to send them somewhere, yeah, send us your suggestions, OTH at 2600.com.
[10:22.480 --> 10:28.200]  See, I was just going to say you should stop in Omaha and go to the rainforest at the Henry Dorley Zoo in Omaha, Nebraska.
[10:29.220 --> 10:37.840]  And let me quickly say that current staffers of Off the Hook or WBAI or 2600 are not eligible to tell us where to go.
[10:38.320 --> 10:38.720]  Man!
[10:41.420 --> 10:43.400]  But we get all sorts of chances to do that.
[10:46.620 --> 11:00.000]  So I'll judge various hidden gems for ourselves if it's, you know, the type of gem we would like to go and visit and learn more about.
[11:00.420 --> 11:02.080]  And our opinion might differ, too.
[11:02.160 --> 11:04.980]  You might say something is cool, and we might say it's lean.
[11:05.460 --> 11:07.800]  And that's just something we're going to have to live with.
[11:07.800 --> 11:08.060]  Hmm.
[11:08.860 --> 11:17.680]  So if you out there listening think Emanuel and Kyle should go see the biggest ball of twine in Minnesota, then by all means, send us those emails, OTH at 2600.com.
[11:18.500 --> 11:20.580]  And it's just mutual respect.
[11:20.580 --> 11:29.120]  You would only expect the same if we suggested you go somewhere, you know, go take a hike over, yonder.
[11:30.260 --> 11:32.500]  We would allow you the same.
[11:32.600 --> 11:34.860]  This is starting to sound combative for some reason.
[11:35.140 --> 11:39.420]  No, we want all the pleasant things and share good experiences.
[11:39.720 --> 11:44.220]  And please, help us not kill each other on the way back home.
[11:44.660 --> 11:46.080]  Sweet drive for many reasons.
[11:47.240 --> 11:48.700]  Yeah, so it's going to be fun.
[11:48.980 --> 11:54.040]  But let's steer back to Amazon because, boy, we love talking about Amazon.
[11:54.500 --> 11:59.060]  And as we mentioned last week, we mentioned how much they were pervasive in this area.
[12:00.020 --> 12:01.200]  We have some audio.
[12:01.460 --> 12:08.680]  We have something that is basically people are being barraged with here on their television stations.
[12:09.180 --> 12:16.100]  Or if you are streaming something online and, you know, you have to sit through commercials in order to get to the content.
[12:16.460 --> 12:18.220]  Well, it knows where you are.
[12:18.360 --> 12:19.740]  The systems know where you are.
[12:19.800 --> 12:25.240]  And they will send you commercials that are, quote unquote, relevant to the area.
[12:25.860 --> 12:31.040]  And there is a particular Amazon commercial that they just keep hitting us with.
[12:31.200 --> 12:37.980]  And it's meant to show how benevolent a corporation Amazon is.
[12:38.180 --> 12:44.200]  But if you watch this commercial, and you won't see the video, obviously, but you can hear what the people are saying.
[12:45.060 --> 12:50.420]  You just are struck with, wow, Amazon employees are terrible people.
[12:50.420 --> 12:52.340]  They just keep demanding things.
[12:52.540 --> 12:54.740]  And Amazon just keeps giving it to them.
[12:54.840 --> 12:56.040]  That's poor corporation.
[12:56.280 --> 12:57.220]  We really should help them.
[12:57.940 --> 13:00.940]  And with that set up, Rob, if you're ready.
[13:01.280 --> 13:02.040]  I am ready.
[13:02.240 --> 13:03.120]  Let's have a listen to this.
[13:04.500 --> 13:06.660]  I drop off and pick up my kids from school.
[13:06.660 --> 13:08.840]  So I can't work early or late.
[13:09.500 --> 13:11.380]  And I need to make enough to make it worthwhile.
[13:11.760 --> 13:13.500]  I can only work two days a week.
[13:13.800 --> 13:15.860]  And it can't interfere with my other job.
[13:15.860 --> 13:18.500]  I can do full time, just not daytime.
[13:18.860 --> 13:20.460]  And I need benefits.
[13:20.940 --> 13:21.840]  Good ones.
[13:22.240 --> 13:24.720]  And you know, it'd be nice if you paid for my tuition.
[13:25.360 --> 13:26.180]  Like all of them.
[13:29.080 --> 13:30.540]  Wow, that's not at all creepy.
[13:31.700 --> 13:32.840]  Actually, what's the opposite of that?
[13:32.920 --> 13:33.820]  No, that is creepy.
[13:34.000 --> 13:35.020]  That is very creepy.
[13:35.940 --> 13:41.020]  It's just, you know, especially the guy saying, yeah, it'd be nice if you pay for my tuition.
[13:41.260 --> 13:41.760]  All of it.
[13:42.160 --> 13:46.420]  Like, you know, just go take a hike yourself, man.
[13:46.580 --> 13:47.040]  I mean, what?
[13:47.740 --> 13:48.620]  How dare you?
[13:49.340 --> 13:51.080]  That's sort of the fee you get.
[13:51.260 --> 13:53.700]  Like, these people are just so, so demanding.
[13:53.960 --> 13:55.960]  And such crybabies.
[13:56.140 --> 13:57.160]  Of course, they're right.
[13:57.340 --> 14:00.000]  Of course, they should get benefits.
[14:00.400 --> 14:03.420]  They should be able to work at a schedule that works for them.
[14:03.500 --> 14:08.240]  But just the way it's presented, I find myself saying, wow, Amazon, you put up with a lot.
[14:08.320 --> 14:09.880]  And I know that's not what I should be thinking.
[14:10.500 --> 14:11.920]  Yeah, it's the reading of it.
[14:12.400 --> 14:20.060]  After you've heard it once, and then a couple times, the repetition, your hearing of them changes, I think.
[14:20.300 --> 14:28.400]  Because on the one hand, it means the sort of two things, depending on the perspective of the employer or the laborers.
[14:28.540 --> 14:34.720]  And in this case, they're presenting it as though, these are the type of employees we want to attract.
[14:34.720 --> 14:39.240]  These are the type of employees that are available in the market.
[14:39.540 --> 15:03.900]  You know, this is what, as he was saying, you should sympathize with us over that, you know, we have such particular types of people that we have to screen through and put up with, as opposed to people that wouldn't be making all these sort of special requests and accommodations and so forth.
[15:04.040 --> 15:11.180]  And it really takes a different tone as you really listen deeply to the message and see the way they make those statements.
[15:11.560 --> 15:14.460]  Yeah, they just look like they're troubled.
[15:14.860 --> 15:16.580]  And they never say thank you.
[15:16.960 --> 15:19.260]  They never seem to actually be happy.
[15:19.380 --> 15:20.400]  They're just making demands.
[15:20.700 --> 15:22.400]  And I know that's not the case.
[15:22.660 --> 15:25.900]  You know, I know Amazon workers deserve everything they can get.
[15:26.100 --> 15:35.240]  But the way this is presented, it's just, especially after you see it about 40 times, it gets under your skin and you start saying, wow, Amazon, how can you put up with all these people?
[15:35.400 --> 15:42.480]  And it's cloaked in this sense of empowerment, that they're somehow taking control over their employment.
[15:42.840 --> 15:50.220]  But it isn't necessarily the only message within this statement, the commercial itself.
[15:50.900 --> 15:54.780]  No, and it seems pretty dystopian on the face of it.
[15:54.980 --> 16:00.900]  And I mean, even after seeing that ad, and we do get it here too, in between streaming things.
[16:01.400 --> 16:06.940]  And my mental image of an Amazon employee is still someone in a warehouse peeing in bottles.
[16:07.520 --> 16:09.200]  So that hasn't helped with that either.
[16:09.580 --> 16:14.640]  I still don't think that's maybe an accurate picture of what it's like to work for this company.
[16:17.520 --> 16:22.060]  I'm thinking we've, you know, been talking a lot about multi-level marketing a lot.
[16:22.160 --> 16:29.400]  And I wonder if that, if there's a difference in the foothold it has there because of the ubiquity of Amazon.
[16:29.820 --> 16:32.760]  And I also don't like what it says about me that that's where my head went.
[16:33.240 --> 16:36.820]  But no, it's interesting because it's honestly a lot of the same selling points.
[16:36.940 --> 16:40.140]  You can work on your own schedule, you can make your own time.
[16:40.560 --> 16:45.680]  And they're also incredibly predatory is how multi-level marketing works.
[16:46.000 --> 16:48.240]  So, again, don't know.
[16:48.560 --> 16:48.760]  Yeah.
[16:49.540 --> 16:50.660]  Great example.
[16:50.860 --> 16:53.980]  No, historic observation and a parallel.
[16:54.220 --> 17:11.120]  I'm sure there are psychological elements of this kind of strategy, but with like a sort of relevant 21st century twist where they're taking it in a different direction in this sort of large logistics operation.
[17:11.510 --> 17:11.960]  Great.
[17:12.730 --> 17:13.180]  Yeah.
[17:13.400 --> 17:16.320]  I didn't know they were showing that particular ad in New York.
[17:16.460 --> 17:23.920]  I don't know if they're showing it over the air or if they're showing it on streaming platforms, but it's something that you can't get away from here.
[17:24.060 --> 17:25.460]  And here's something else that's kind of funny.
[17:26.400 --> 17:33.940]  If you see those ads, if you're watching something on some network and you're streaming, you get a whole bunch of ads.
[17:34.230 --> 17:45.900]  But if you have somewhat low bandwidth, the ads that try and take up too much bandwidth wind up slowing everything down.
[17:46.320 --> 17:51.440]  In fact, they stutter and you can only see maybe five seconds at a time and pauses, refreshes.
[17:52.000 --> 17:53.260]  Well, Amazon is one of those.
[17:53.440 --> 18:00.320]  So every time this Amazon ad comes on, everything grinds to a halt as it struggles to play its 30 seconds.
[18:00.840 --> 18:07.100]  You also see that with movie premieres where they try to get the best picture possible, but they don't take into account people with lower bandwidth.
[18:07.620 --> 18:13.740]  So it's just kind of ironic that Amazon is adding how great they are and slowing everything down by bragging.
[18:14.380 --> 18:16.920]  Amazon is crushing itself under its own weight, you would say?
[18:17.640 --> 18:20.840]  I hope that's not a harbinger of things to come.
[18:21.580 --> 18:23.640]  It's crushing the end user more, I think.
[18:25.600 --> 18:42.820]  Hey, so there's a brand new social app that was announced, I think, right after our last show that the Trump people in their everlasting search for relevance announced or came out with.
[18:43.000 --> 18:44.280]  It's called Truth.
[18:44.640 --> 18:50.440]  And in fact, it's kind of like Twitter, but it's not Twitter because it's Truth.
[18:51.200 --> 18:54.080]  And you won't be sending tweets, you'll be sending Truths.
[18:55.500 --> 18:56.460]  That's hard to say.
[18:56.710 --> 18:57.140]  Truths.
[18:57.710 --> 18:57.710]  Hmm.
[18:58.460 --> 19:05.580]  Okay, so you'll be sending out Truths, but you can't send out a truth that criticizes Truth.
[19:06.280 --> 19:07.060]  Is that clear?
[19:07.240 --> 19:07.800]  I mean, if you...
[19:07.800 --> 19:18.280]  You can say, you know, it's freedom of speech, you can say whatever you want, but you just can't criticize the Truth platform that enables you to say whatever you want, except for that.
[19:19.120 --> 19:20.420]  Does that... Any questions?
[19:21.500 --> 19:26.440]  It all seems fairly straightforward in a dark and frightening way.
[19:26.440 --> 19:37.820]  Um, but yes, Truth Social is the, uh, is the, the social network that, uh, is being, uh, trumpeted by former president, uh, so on and so on.
[19:38.600 --> 19:49.420]  And there's a, there's a very interesting thing about that network because, uh, you know, when, before, before this was announced, if you asked me, what would you think about a clone of something like Twitter?
[19:49.640 --> 19:50.780]  I would say that exists.
[19:50.800 --> 19:51.800]  It's called Mastodon.
[19:51.960 --> 19:56.320]  It's open source and anybody can start one and it's out there and they all talk to each other and it's great.
[19:57.120 --> 20:01.180]  Um, you can find us on Mastodon at hackerradioshow at mastodon.social.
[20:01.620 --> 20:11.860]  But, uh, then Truth Social came up and it was a brand new thing, a brand new alternative to Twitter, but they were using the Mastodon, the Mastodon software.
[20:12.240 --> 20:13.440]  They're running Mastodon.
[20:13.560 --> 20:14.540]  It's a Mastodon instance.
[20:14.820 --> 20:24.160]  And, uh, this was found out when it went, uh, public ahead of schedule and people were able to access the site and, uh, start up accounts and all sorts of fun stuff happened.
[20:24.360 --> 20:40.280]  But, um, an interesting, an interesting point of this is that Mastodon is an open source software with free licenses and you have to obey those licenses if you're running a Mastodon server or you're in violation of the, uh, the terms of use of this thing.
[20:41.160 --> 20:49.860]  Truth is in violation of the terms of use because they erased the references to Mastodon from their code and from their, uh, from their documentation.
[20:50.560 --> 21:03.040]  They, uh, are basically running something that is obviously forked from Mastodon, which you're allowed to do if you, uh, give proper credit basically for, for what it is, but they have not done that.
[21:03.120 --> 21:06.280]  They have chosen to mask it as something that they have created from whole cloth.
[21:06.540 --> 21:12.200]  And that is against the, uh, general public license, which is the free license that the software is released under.
[21:12.400 --> 21:15.180]  So basically they're running stolen code.
[21:16.060 --> 21:22.320]  So I understand they have 30 days, uh, to stop breaking these rules or else.
[21:22.520 --> 21:24.960]  And I'm very curious what the, or else could be.
[21:25.520 --> 21:29.640]  Yeah, fewer now that 30 days from, uh, I think this broke on the 22nd.
[21:30.180 --> 21:40.160]  Um, so, uh, they, they've got around 25 days left to bring themselves into, uh, compliance with the license that the software comes with, or they could, uh, they could suffer penalties.
[21:40.160 --> 21:48.400]  They're being, uh, sued by the software freedom conservancy, which is, uh, a nonprofit that uh, enforces the, the GPL and such things.
[21:48.760 --> 21:49.160]  Alex.
[21:49.640 --> 21:51.280]  Well, a guy asks.
[21:52.420 --> 21:53.420]  Yeah, sure.
[21:53.800 --> 22:03.960]  The, you know, the, the, the, or else in this, I think is, is somewhat interesting in that we don't necessarily know what the, or else is, but it could be any number of things.
[22:04.600 --> 22:17.900]  Uh, you know, the, the SFC, the software freedom conservancy could be seeking some kind of damages for the violation of their copyright, um, for the intentional violation of the and as well as some kind of evasive activity.
[22:18.100 --> 22:20.040]  So damages could be solved.
[22:20.180 --> 22:28.540]  But what I think would be much more interesting here is if the SFC was seeking some kind of, uh, equitable relief.
[22:28.540 --> 22:46.980]  Um, and by equitable relief, I mean an injunction, you know, basically an order compelling the, this new social media truths nonsense to stop using its code because it did not properly attribute the code is not using it.
[22:47.140 --> 22:54.980]  Uh, it was, uh, in violation of the copyright license and, and continues to be in violation of the copyright license.
[22:55.600 --> 22:57.880]  But, um, so that would be very interesting.
[22:57.880 --> 23:16.360]  If, if I were the lawyer for the SFC, uh, and I'm not, and again, and this is not necessarily legal advice, but, um, I think it would be really interesting to see some kind of motion for an, uh, an injunction here because that would bring this battle right to the forefront of the court injunction.
[23:16.480 --> 23:20.560]  Injunctive relief is something that courts here, uh, on an expedited basis.
[23:20.840 --> 23:29.300]  And the, the merits of this particular case would rise very quickly in the briefs and be in front of the judge and be in front of the public as well.
[23:30.300 --> 23:45.200]  And I think pending the outcome of the actual litigation, if there is a likelihood of success on the merits and the equities fall in favor of the SFC, which they probably do, uh, a court could grant an injunction and shut this site down.
[23:45.540 --> 23:54.860]  Or they would have to find a completely new, uh, framework or completely new source code from which to run their own social media platform.
[23:55.140 --> 23:58.880]  But it's not clear exactly what it is, what, what they're going after right now.
[23:59.320 --> 24:00.980]  Can I just ask a question though?
[24:01.220 --> 24:16.240]  What, what is so hard apart from them being complete jerks, but what is so hard with simply giving credit to the, uh, the source code that they're using, uh, how hard would it be for them to physically do that?
[24:16.440 --> 24:26.540]  The, the funny part about that is that it's more difficult to do what they did and try and scrub the references than it would be to just install the software off the shelf as it were and, and let it run.
[24:26.860 --> 24:35.340]  Because, uh, doing that and, uh, publishing their version of the source code, which is another, uh, uh, term of the license, um, doing that is easy.
[24:35.480 --> 24:43.180]  And there are tons of guides on how to do it for people who want to set up their own Mastodon instances, but, uh, they, they went to the trouble of trying to erase it.
[24:43.280 --> 24:47.420]  They went to the trouble of trying to mask, uh, what they're using and, uh, how they're using it.
[24:47.560 --> 24:50.200]  And yeah, this, this was a concerted effort.
[24:50.300 --> 24:50.940]  I misspoke earlier.
[24:51.080 --> 24:51.780]  I said they were being sued.
[24:51.860 --> 25:08.040]  They're not being sued yet by the Software Freedom Conservancy, but, uh, from a blog post on sfconservancy.org, which is their site, um, they are in, they are, uh, uh, following the issue very closely and insisting that Trump's group give the corresponding source to all who use the site.
[25:08.960 --> 25:09.360]  Alex?
[25:09.360 --> 25:13.320]  Well, Alex, maybe this is your chance to, um, to...
[25:14.420 --> 25:17.880]  Hey, look, I, I'd be happy to consult with the, uh, with the SFC.
[25:18.060 --> 25:22.080]  If they want to reach out to me, um, we can certainly have a chat about their, their various options.
[25:22.260 --> 25:29.380]  And I think they have many, uh, given that this is a copyright violation, they could get right into federal court.
[25:29.480 --> 25:34.780]  So this one could be a lot of fun, uh, for, for whoever the lawyer is that's going to be handling this.
[25:34.880 --> 25:43.980]  And I, I'm not a copyright expert, but I have handled my fair share of, uh, applications for injunctions and defending against them as well.
[25:44.180 --> 25:47.080]  And so this one really could be quite interesting.
[25:47.340 --> 25:54.780]  Um, but I'm glad you mentioned that, Rob, because, uh, I was, my next question was going to be, you know, do you have any idea where there is a lawsuit filed?
[25:54.980 --> 26:14.840]  So my guess is that at the expiration of this 30 day period, the SFC then would probably file some kind of complaint, hopefully seeking injunctive relief against the, uh, the, the Trump media truth group, the TMTG that there's this new entity that, that I believe was formed as well.
[26:15.100 --> 26:18.300]  Um, did I get the right Trump media truth group?
[26:18.460 --> 26:18.860]  Is that what it is?
[26:19.120 --> 26:26.720]  I mean, this, this whole thing just sounds with truth and taking over the notion of truth, just like they took over the flags and then had their own flags.
[26:26.860 --> 26:33.960]  It, the whole thing is, is positively Orwellian sounding to me, uh, and, and not in a good sense.
[26:36.120 --> 26:36.520]  Yeah.
[26:36.700 --> 26:38.160]  And the Conservancy know what they're doing.
[26:38.300 --> 26:40.020]  They have, uh, they have a history of these things.
[26:40.160 --> 26:47.700]  In, uh, 2010, they, uh, they actually won in a court case against Westinghouse Digital, uh, involving enforcement of the GPL.
[26:48.140 --> 26:50.480]  And, uh, yeah, they're, they're stocked with experts.
[26:50.540 --> 26:52.680]  They're, uh, keeping an eye on this.
[26:52.780 --> 26:58.080]  And it seems like from the tone of their, uh, announcements and things regarding this, they're, they're, they're raring to go.
[26:58.380 --> 27:01.620]  So it will be very interesting to see how, how this all shakes out.
[27:02.160 --> 27:08.180]  Um, Alex, to confirm, it's the Trump media and technology group, although this was the only thing they were doing.
[27:08.880 --> 27:19.160]  Um, and there was also some sort of early, like people found it early and were signing up, creating accounts at Donald Trump, at Mike Pence.
[27:19.940 --> 27:26.500]  Um, I'm trying to think of ways that the rollout and design of this whole project could have been worse.
[27:27.720 --> 27:29.460]  I'm not doing terribly well at that.
[27:29.660 --> 27:35.660]  The only, I was just, we got off the air last week at eight o'clock and I think at eight 30, this news started to break.
[27:35.660 --> 27:41.380]  And I was a little frustrated that we hadn't been able to talk about it on the air, but tonight.
[27:41.620 --> 27:48.260]  Well, it, it, it took, um, less than two hours, I believe for the site to be completely brought to its knees.
[27:48.400 --> 27:52.240]  Um, which tells you something about their security, uh, preparedness.
[27:52.960 --> 27:55.160]  And, uh, it's just, it's just another joke.
[27:55.400 --> 27:56.440]  I mean, it really is.
[27:56.560 --> 27:59.640]  It's, um, it's, it's, it's, it's pathetic to see this kind of thing.
[28:00.080 --> 28:07.680]  Uh, and, and just the very idea of it, the first place coming up with something, uh, called truce where you're not allowed to criticize the platform.
[28:07.920 --> 28:10.480]  It's just, you can't make the stuff up.
[28:10.840 --> 28:17.180]  Uh, so, um, I don't know what the next chapter will bring, but undoubtedly we'll be, we'll be laughing at that in a couple of weeks.
[28:17.460 --> 28:38.040]  My thought with this is that it's, it's for, uh, ostensibly everyone, but it's really in this sort of, um, uh, uh, kind of deifying it, the, the sort of anchor, um, celebrity, uh, uh, uh, being this, uh, former president.
[28:38.400 --> 28:52.100]  And in that way, it, it, it has a lot of the trappings of, um, just this, this, um, following and, and blind following as you get the truth from this, uh, uh, messenger.
[28:52.520 --> 28:58.440]  And it just, it's taking on almost a religious, uh, tone when you think about it that way.
[28:58.940 --> 29:16.140]  Uh, of course, many other people are on the platform and maybe there's going to be many different messiahs and so forth on this, uh, uh, whole, uh, social platform that, that, um, people will follow and not question and won't criticize the platform for letting them say whatever kind of awful things,
[29:16.140 --> 29:28.180]  uh, uh, or, or, um, you know, uh, incendiary things that of course are the main reasons he was kicked off the other platforms and had to create this in the first place, you know?
[29:28.300 --> 29:33.020]  And I just, I can't get over the, the, the, the deliberate use of the word truth.
[29:33.020 --> 29:46.020]  Cause it has, I mean, it has a lot of that religious usage, like, you know, hearing the truth or, or that, uh, uh, scripture is, is, uh, a source of the truth for, for some and so forth.
[29:46.120 --> 29:58.820]  So I, I just, I see that conflation of it and it just, it's more of this, uh, uh, self aggrandizement and, and it's again for everyone, but really we know who it's for.
[29:58.920 --> 30:03.200]  It's just to, to pet this, this, um, wounded ego.
[30:05.460 --> 30:18.840]  Well, look on that point, Kyle, I think, uh, I think you really hit it right on the head here because it, this isn't about creating an alternative media site that's going to compete with Facebook and Twitter and whatnot.
[30:19.040 --> 30:28.440]  It's about re acquiring the megaphone that Trump was denied in the wake of the January 6th insurrection.
[30:28.800 --> 30:30.100]  He's not allowed on Twitter.
[30:30.300 --> 30:31.520]  He's not allowed on Facebook.
[30:31.720 --> 30:45.500]  And if you think about the following that Trump had on Twitter at the time that he was banned on, you know, at the time of the January 6th insurrection, he had over 88 million followers on Twitter.
[30:45.780 --> 30:52.840]  That is a massive megaphone of people whom you can reach anytime you tweet out any of your nonsense.
[30:53.140 --> 31:01.020]  It's absolutely, uh, astronomical in, uh, in comparison, the New York times.
[31:01.740 --> 31:02.820]  Well, just take a guess.
[31:03.160 --> 31:04.800]  Uh, does anybody care to venture a guess?
[31:05.120 --> 31:07.500]  How many subscribers the New York times actually has?
[31:09.060 --> 31:12.560]  I would say probably about 10 million, maybe 20.
[31:13.080 --> 31:13.560]  Okay.
[31:13.940 --> 31:14.240]  All right.
[31:14.320 --> 31:16.140]  Well, that, that's a pretty wide range.
[31:16.220 --> 31:16.460]  Okay.
[31:16.620 --> 31:19.240]  But 10 or 20 million, Rob, 15, yes.
[31:19.980 --> 31:20.720]  Uh, $1.
[31:21.060 --> 31:22.000]  Um, I don't know.
[31:22.000 --> 31:22.880]  I'm terrible at these things.
[31:24.320 --> 31:25.720]  It's not the price is right.
[31:25.940 --> 31:26.680]  12 million.
[31:27.780 --> 31:28.460]  12 million.
[31:28.640 --> 31:28.860]  Okay.
[31:29.300 --> 31:29.600]  All right.
[31:29.820 --> 31:31.680]  Well, uh, Kyle, what about you?
[31:31.740 --> 31:33.300]  You want to throw in a, a guess?
[31:33.760 --> 31:36.320]  You're saying subscribers, not readers.
[31:36.760 --> 31:37.540]  There's subscribers.
[31:38.840 --> 31:39.080]  Yeah.
[31:40.080 --> 31:41.120]  Oh, subscribers.
[31:41.420 --> 31:43.860]  There's a lot of different types of subscriptions nowadays.
[31:44.120 --> 31:57.180]  And of course, with the circulation, the New York, New York times has, I think there's, you know, there's various levels to this, but I'll, I'll say, uh, 8 million or, or so, uh, that you, Kyle, you got it exactly right.
[31:57.420 --> 31:58.920]  They have 8 million subscriptions.
[31:59.260 --> 31:59.700]  Wow.
[32:00.400 --> 32:05.020]  And are hoping to have 8.5 at the end of the year, apparently.
[32:05.300 --> 32:11.200]  But if you think about Trump's reach in relation to the New York times subscription base, it is 10 times larger.
[32:11.200 --> 32:13.380]  And that's just on one social media platform.
[32:13.940 --> 32:15.060]  It's absolutely incredible.
[32:15.500 --> 32:21.880]  However, is it fair to compare a number of Twitter followers to a number of subscribers to an entire publication?
[32:22.120 --> 32:31.980]  Well, that's, that's what I'm, that's what I'm getting at is that, you know, a lot of these stories are amplified and pushed out other ways because the New York times is going to have their reporters have certain followers that push this out.
[32:32.120 --> 32:35.540]  The times itself is going to have a certain number of followers and whatnot.
[32:35.920 --> 32:48.420]  But in relation to a major media organization that is known and trusted around the world, Donald Trump had over 10 times the amount of Twitter followers and their subscriptions.
[32:48.900 --> 32:51.060]  There's something to be said about that.
[32:51.200 --> 33:01.820]  And he's trying to reacquire this megaphone now at any cause, but you know, before 2024, another thing, Alex, um, a show of hands.
[33:02.380 --> 33:03.280]  Oh, wait, that's not going to work.
[33:03.440 --> 33:07.000]  Um, let's just, uh, let us know by voice.
[33:07.300 --> 33:10.280]  How many people here followed Donald Trump?
[33:10.500 --> 33:10.840]  I did.
[33:11.360 --> 33:12.160]  I did not.
[33:12.340 --> 33:12.880]  I never did.
[33:14.000 --> 33:14.740]  I didn't.
[33:15.120 --> 33:16.080]  Mindfully, I did not.
[33:16.660 --> 33:17.260]  I did.
[33:17.280 --> 33:19.440]  I did at the beginning and then had to stop.
[33:20.500 --> 33:20.780]  Yeah.
[33:21.000 --> 33:21.200]  Okay.
[33:21.340 --> 33:22.040]  Well, you know what?
[33:22.040 --> 33:25.160]  I didn't stop because I wanted to see just what was going on.
[33:25.540 --> 33:27.500]  And, uh, I keep abreast of all this.
[33:27.620 --> 33:32.020]  I, I still follow some reprehensible people because I want to know what they're up to.
[33:32.480 --> 33:41.680]  And, um, not all of those 80 million people were Donald Trump followers, uh, just because they were, they were following his Twitter account.
[33:42.040 --> 33:44.000]  But, um, how many of them were real people?
[33:44.200 --> 33:44.880]  That's my question.
[33:45.080 --> 33:57.920]  How many of those 80 million, like, you know, I'm assuming 8.8 million New York times subscribers are people or coffee shops or entities that are paying for it?
[33:58.160 --> 34:02.680]  Entities that are not bots, farmed bots?
[34:03.600 --> 34:04.240]  Like... Yeah.
[34:04.500 --> 34:09.920]  If, if you can get a bot to subscribe to your newspaper, I think you're doing all right, you know?
[34:10.880 --> 34:11.340]  Yeah.
[34:11.440 --> 34:12.260]  But I mean, that's my question.
[34:12.420 --> 34:18.540]  Of those 88 million Twitter followers, how many were legit human beings?
[34:19.050 --> 34:19.320]  Hmm.
[34:19.820 --> 34:22.690]  I'll tell you what I did follow during his... Well, legit human beings.
[34:22.880 --> 34:24.380]  What's, a legit human being?
[34:24.540 --> 34:25.040]  I mean, yeah.
[34:26.000 --> 34:35.190]  Or... I'll tell you what I did follow during his presidency was numerous accounts sprang up that would re, uh, repost, but recontextualize somehow his tweets.
[34:35.440 --> 34:41.050]  Like, there was an account that would, uh, explain his tweets in, like, straightforward English versus the language he used.
[34:41.190 --> 34:47.760]  There was another bot that, for a while, that, uh, uh, showed video of a printout of that tweet happening and then being lit on fire.
[34:47.900 --> 34:55.330]  There was some great stuff, uh, being done out there with, uh, alternative ways to follow what was going on on his Twitter without being one of those followers.
[34:56.050 --> 35:11.980]  Well, they have yet to recover in a, in a very, uh, meaningful way and, and capture this, this, um, sort of amorphous, uh, uh, collection of, of, uh, followers and, and or commentators, whether they're boss or not.
[35:12.360 --> 35:30.150]  Remember that, uh, the fall of Parler, that was quickly after the, the January 6th event and, and then reforming there, uh, took some time, then their host fell through and then now it has continued to be something they're a bit fumbling a bit with and,
[35:30.150 --> 35:35.480]  um, centralizing it with something they're actually hosting doesn't seem to have helped either.
[35:36.090 --> 35:48.790]  So, um, however powerful or, um, uh, uh, uh, loyal this group may be, it certainly is not hearing, uh, the, the message or the truth, uh, at least directly.
[35:48.790 --> 36:08.570]  I think a lot of it is more indirect and, uh, and a lot of people, uh, loyalists and, and, uh, diehard people, um, kind of spreading their own takes and trying to keep, um, certain, uh, specific issues in, in, in the, the limelight as, uh, sort of part of his legacy,
[36:08.570 --> 36:21.590]  not really too concerned with, uh, keeping much of his, his platform, um, and the integrity of, of, of his administration's accomplishments together because, well, there weren't that many of them.
[36:21.750 --> 36:41.360]  I mean, there, there may have been, uh, some, some various, uh, milestones in the, in the timeline, so to speak, but it's certainly, I mean, you're not going to find a lot of cohesion around, um, uh, a lot of the hot button things and like, and, and things that are now actually looking pretty bad in retrospect,
[36:41.880 --> 36:51.500]  uh, I'm talking about immigration and, and other domestic priorities, uh, they didn't really age so well, so they're jumping to other, um, buzzwords and things, but it seems more diffuse.
[36:51.500 --> 37:13.310]  It's not central in the way, in the way that power was wielded when Twitter was validating, uh, uh, him and in so much of, uh, so much of the, the hatefulness and, and, uh, uh, uh, caustic, uh, demeanor that, that was put up with for so long by so many of us.
[37:13.790 --> 37:19.090]  But, you know, there's one thing that, that, that still bothers me about Trump being removed from Twitter.
[37:19.460 --> 37:22.650]  And, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm very glad that he was removed.
[37:22.810 --> 37:25.590]  I think that the, the overall atmosphere has improved.
[37:25.830 --> 37:31.290]  Uh, misinformation has gone down a significant amount and there's still way too much of it out there.
[37:32.040 --> 37:35.150]  Uh, but, um, uh, the overall tone I think has improved.
[37:35.270 --> 37:39.150]  But in addition to getting rid of Trump, they got rid of all of Trump's tweets.
[37:39.880 --> 37:40.940]  Am I correct in this?
[37:40.960 --> 37:43.170]  You cannot see the history.
[37:43.480 --> 37:49.040]  And I think that's something that does need to be preserved, that we need to look at as evidence.
[37:49.810 --> 37:50.670]  That is correct.
[37:50.670 --> 37:58.380]  And I, I believe there were efforts by, uh, people like the Internet Archive and, uh, and organizations like that to make sure they were stored somewhere.
[37:58.810 --> 38:01.050]  Um, and, uh, there was also that project.
[38:01.230 --> 38:09.020]  We, we spoke about this, uh, this project on this, uh, program years ago when the Library of Congress announced that they were going to be archiving tweets.
[38:09.520 --> 38:16.050]  And I don't, I don't recall exactly how that, uh, shook out or whether they were still doing that or whether the president's tweets were part of that archive.
[38:16.250 --> 38:19.270]  But, um, it would seem to make sense if it were.
[38:20.170 --> 38:24.690]  I think they, they definitely have some pull, uh, down there in, in Washington, D.C.
[38:24.750 --> 38:28.500]  I'm sure they, they could talk to the right people and, uh, get a good copy.
[38:29.290 --> 38:34.270]  You know, why don't we just contact Trump and say, can you send us all of your tweets?
[38:34.480 --> 38:36.540]  You know, uh, maybe print it out or something.
[38:36.980 --> 38:39.750]  If everybody, well, actually it's probably bad for trees if you do that.
[38:39.860 --> 38:45.670]  But if you just waste their time by getting them to send you all their tweets over and over again, that might be a bit of fun.
[38:46.330 --> 38:48.830]  You're just in the rainforest and you want to do that to the trees.
[38:48.830 --> 38:51.050]  Yeah, I just realized how bad that was.
[38:51.330 --> 38:57.400]  Hey, Rob, you, you discovered something this week, uh, speaking of, uh, things being archived and, and forever lost.
[38:57.770 --> 39:01.590]  Um, first of all, you discovered that Usenet still exists.
[39:01.830 --> 39:02.130]  Indeed.
[39:02.210 --> 39:05.590]  Okay, something that, that I kind of, uh, uh, wasn't aware of.
[39:05.960 --> 39:11.520]  Uh, but, um, a particular news group on Usenet is about to not exist anymore.
[39:11.630 --> 39:12.330]  You want to give us more info?
[39:12.810 --> 39:13.540]  Yes, indeed.
[39:13.900 --> 39:27.230]  Um, for those, uh, for those unfamiliar, Usenet is, um, uh, an online forum that, uh, goes back through the decades, uh, through the early, uh, through the early internet, um, when people, when, when the geeks had access to the internet and nobody else,
[39:27.610 --> 39:28.500]  Usenet was going on.
[39:28.670 --> 39:30.770]  And it offered all sorts of forums.
[39:30.900 --> 39:34.670]  You could start a news group, um, as it was known for basically anything.
[39:34.980 --> 39:38.480]  And some were sort of the wild west and some were more tightly moderated.
[39:38.670 --> 39:43.650]  And one of the, one of the longest running moderated ones, um, is coming to an end.
[39:44.050 --> 39:55.900]  Uh, rec.radio.broadcasting, which is a Usenet news group about radio, the radio world, the broadcasting world, um, all sorts of subjects, uh, involving it, is being shut down.
[39:56.190 --> 39:57.440]  It was started in 1992.
[39:58.110 --> 40:08.130]  And at the end of this month, it will no longer function because the moderation team, uh, has basically, uh, decided to let it, uh, let it go.
[40:08.330 --> 40:21.710]  Um, a message posted to the news group on October 2nd of this year by, uh, Paul Schleck, one of the moderation team, uh, writes, this is an announcement that the moderated rec.radio.broadcasting Usenet news group will no longer be active.
[40:21.960 --> 40:28.630]  The remaining moderation team has decided not to renew the account at Panix due to low news group activity and their belief that Usenet is obsolete.
[40:29.000 --> 40:33.460]  The account will be permanently shut down next month and no new articles will be approved after that.
[40:33.650 --> 40:42.290]  Uh, any questions or concerns until final account turnoff may be directed to, uh, and there's an email address here, which will not be active for many more days.
[40:43.070 --> 40:48.380]  But, um, yeah, and this, this feels like I, I used Usenet a lot.
[40:48.540 --> 40:50.880]  Um, I basically did a lot of growing up on Usenet.
[40:51.000 --> 40:54.810]  And although it's been a long time since I left it behind, this feels like a loss.
[40:55.000 --> 41:05.730]  I wasn't a user of this particular news group, but hearing about this, uh, shutting down via another radio forum that, uh, that I take part in, um, really, really felt, uh, it felt big.
[41:05.830 --> 41:06.360]  It felt heavy.
[41:06.550 --> 41:18.520]  And so I took a look at the group and yeah, right up until, uh, I mean, right now there's still, uh, a pages full of posts from, uh, from the month of October on all sorts of subjects.
[41:18.900 --> 41:22.210]  Um, here's a radio station in Michigan hiring a program director.
[41:23.020 --> 41:27.690]  Um, here's, uh, here's someone, uh, advertising their DJing.
[41:27.860 --> 41:39.000]  Here's, uh, stuff about the things moving around schedules and just people involved in the radio world and interested in the radio world, interested in the technology of the radio world, um, discussing it in, uh, in various threads.
[41:39.920 --> 41:40.310]  And...
[41:40.310 --> 41:41.520]  Well, hang on, hang on, Rob.
[41:41.630 --> 41:44.750]  So you're saying this group is actually still being used by people.
[41:44.920 --> 41:51.330]  I assume that it was just taken over by spam or, or lack of interest, but people are still posting?
[41:52.110 --> 42:01.770]  Apparently, um, a few people are still posting and it, and it looks more and more like those are the holdouts from what used to be a much more active, uh, forum with, uh, with a thriving community behind it.
[42:02.190 --> 42:08.980]  Um, now it seems like the fate, the, the same few accounts, just, uh, posting things that pop up, uh, relevant news stories, that sort of thing.
[42:09.190 --> 42:11.460]  But there isn't really discussion happening anymore.
[42:11.670 --> 42:14.420]  The threads are basically the initial post and that's it.
[42:14.900 --> 42:16.770]  And, uh, with nobody commenting on them.
[42:17.590 --> 42:19.360]  So now my question is this.
[42:19.440 --> 42:23.040]  Usenet seemed like such a good idea back in the nineties.
[42:23.230 --> 42:27.790]  And I still think it's, the, the, the idea of it is, is still a good one.
[42:28.520 --> 42:30.230]  Why, why do you think it failed?
[42:31.520 --> 42:38.150]  I think, uh, it, for, for one thing, it was always a bit fiddly to get through if you were not, uh, a technical person.
[42:38.380 --> 42:44.310]  Um, unlike the web, which, uh, was basically intuitive for people, um, to just get onto and begin using.
[42:44.460 --> 42:45.810]  You start up the browser and there it is.
[42:45.960 --> 42:49.110]  Um, things like Usenet involved setting up another server.
[42:49.420 --> 42:53.830]  It involved, uh, setting up another piece of software to, uh, check every, you know, on the regular.
[42:54.130 --> 43:01.170]  It involved other things that maybe you wouldn't hand to the average consumer of, uh, internet service in the modern era.
[43:01.500 --> 43:12.020]  Um, I think it's one of the things that if you were using the internet in the nineties, when it was just us nerds, um, you were likely to be interested in this sort of thing, but, uh, it's just a, it's an extra hassle.
[43:12.330 --> 43:19.090]  And I think it was also, uh, replaced by just a lot of the sort of, uh, forums that happen on, uh, on the internet nowadays.
[43:19.230 --> 43:24.360]  A lot of people moved, um, from news groups to things like email lists, uh, back in their day.
[43:24.630 --> 43:25.960]  And those kind of faded out.
[43:26.090 --> 43:28.090]  And now everything's on social networks.
[43:28.210 --> 43:28.830]  Things are on Reddit.
[43:29.000 --> 43:34.810]  Things are on, uh, other sites that have the community building features where you can just start things on, uh, all sorts of subjects.
[43:34.960 --> 43:37.330]  But each one of those sites is a centralized thing.
[43:37.520 --> 43:39.330]  Usenet was always decentralized.
[43:39.440 --> 43:40.360]  It was everywhere.
[43:40.520 --> 43:46.960]  You could get to it and, uh, post to it from, uh, wherever you were as long as you had an internet connection and could access a server.
[43:48.100 --> 43:48.460]  Exactly.
[43:48.960 --> 43:54.790]  Uh, rec.radio.broadcasting, that was a news group to, to discuss broadcasting.
[43:55.160 --> 43:59.180]  Um, you just listed a, a bunch of replacements, but it's a bunch.
[43:59.330 --> 44:00.060]  It's not one.
[44:00.310 --> 44:01.810]  Uh, which one do you go to?
[44:02.000 --> 44:03.700]  How do you keep in touch with different people?
[44:03.940 --> 44:05.560]  Uh, are you in the right one?
[44:05.770 --> 44:11.080]  It just seems like we're becoming more and more fractured and, and, and split apart.
[44:11.400 --> 44:15.420]  Um, whereas Usenet was a way of bringing people together.
[44:15.640 --> 44:16.520]  I, I know it didn't work.
[44:16.620 --> 44:21.520]  I know it, um, it, it wasn't well maintained and, and spammers took over.
[44:21.770 --> 44:23.750]  I mean, we had Alt.2600.
[44:23.960 --> 44:25.360]  I haven't looked at that in ages.
[44:25.540 --> 44:30.980]  I don't even know if it's still around, but, um, it, it, it served a very valuable purpose for, for a spell.
[44:31.180 --> 44:36.940]  Uh, it just seems a shame that these kinds of things aren't able to be preserved in some manner.
[44:38.020 --> 44:38.660]  Yes, indeed.
[44:38.810 --> 44:40.900]  I mean, like they were, this, this one's about radio.
[44:41.060 --> 44:46.700]  There were ones about so many subjects, uh, from the technical to, you know, entertainment shows and films people liked.
[44:47.140 --> 44:55.040]  Uh, I, I made friends on Usenet that I have to this day, but we now keep in touch by other means because there's just nothing happening on the, on the news groups anymore.
[44:55.700 --> 45:05.140]  Um, the last time I tried to look at one of the recreational unmoderated, uh, news groups that I used to frequent, it was just pages and pages of spam bots talking to each other, no humans to be found.
[45:05.920 --> 45:08.210]  And, uh, yeah, it does, it feels like the end of an era.
[45:08.440 --> 45:13.250]  And when a, when a group like this that was moderated, so the spam didn't get anywhere.
[45:14.020 --> 45:20.880]  Um, but, uh, it, uh, it, it maintained a community for almost 30 years, uh, 29 years it looks like.
[45:21.100 --> 45:32.460]  And, uh, I communicated a little bit with, uh, with Paul Schleck, this moderator, and, uh, he spoke a little bit about just the things he was involved in, other news groups, um, things like that.
[45:32.580 --> 45:39.680]  But, but, uh, the scene in general, he and the rest of the moderation team for this news group agree, um, just Usenet is done.
[45:39.860 --> 45:43.770]  It's finished and it's not, it's no longer a useful thing to put the work into maintaining.
[45:46.210 --> 45:46.700]  Wow.
[45:47.250 --> 45:50.380]  Um, I'd like to read a letter from one of our listeners.
[45:50.700 --> 45:54.830]  It's from PRD, uh, question about communications as well.
[45:55.040 --> 46:09.710]  Uh, hi, I keep running into an issue when sending SMS messages to people who have installed or tried Signal, but don't use it to their systems or as their system's default SMS application or ever open it.
[46:09.920 --> 46:14.440]  Uh, this may also affect communication with people who've uninstalled Signal.
[46:14.750 --> 46:16.710]  I am able to verify this though.
[46:17.040 --> 46:27.000]  The SMS messages effectively go into a black hole because Signal routes them to the user's signal account via their phone number from within my Signal client.
[46:27.160 --> 46:30.830]  And the recipient, depending on their settings, may never be notified.
[46:31.020 --> 46:32.440]  Has anyone else run into this issue?
[46:32.680 --> 46:42.810]  Are there any clever workarounds that don't involve reverting to a standard SMS application on my end or somehow coercing my contacts into making Signal their default SMS app?
[46:43.360 --> 46:45.250]  Uh, PRD, I've noticed the same thing.
[46:45.480 --> 46:59.000]  I, I really have, uh, there are people I have, uh, sent Signal messages to who, uh, don't respond and they, they, they should respond, but for some reason they don't get the message.
[46:59.230 --> 47:12.100]  And then when I finally do, uh, catch up to the person at some point, they say they never got the message or they stopped using Signal and, um, and, and the message wasn't forwarded to them, uh, on their, on their phone.
[47:12.380 --> 47:13.660]  So there's something going on.
[47:13.860 --> 47:16.040]  There is definitely a problem at some point.
[47:16.140 --> 47:18.860]  Signal has a bunch of issues that kind of annoy me.
[47:19.000 --> 47:22.620]  For one thing, it seems every day there's a new version and you have to reboot the thing.
[47:23.000 --> 47:23.940]  Uh, fine.
[47:24.060 --> 47:24.230]  Okay.
[47:24.400 --> 47:24.600]  Whatever.
[47:24.860 --> 47:32.480]  The other thing I don't like, which I've talked about is whenever you install Signal, it alerts all your contacts that you're now using Signal.
[47:32.810 --> 47:35.770]  Uh, it also alerts people that you might not know.
[47:36.000 --> 47:38.810]  I, I've gotten messages from complete strangers saying, Hey, welcome to Signal.
[47:39.310 --> 47:42.420]  I don't want people knowing when I start using a piece of software.
[47:42.750 --> 47:44.940]  So, uh, be nice to turn that off.
[47:45.600 --> 47:52.020]  Well, I know exactly what's happening here, um, with this issue because I've run into it myself and, uh, dug up what was going on.
[47:52.160 --> 48:02.830]  And what happens is when somebody tries Signal, decides that, you know, installs it on their device, decides they don't like it, they have to shut down their Signal account through the Signal website.
[48:02.940 --> 48:07.520]  Because if they simply uninstall the app, Signal will think they're still a Signal user.
[48:08.160 --> 48:20.460]  And so then what happens is when you use Signal, it, uh, it, you, it handles your SMS messages, your regular text messages, but it also handles Signal messages, which are from a Signal user to another Signal user.
[48:20.460 --> 48:26.180]  And those are different on the technical side from regular text messages, from regular SMS messages.
[48:26.790 --> 48:33.660]  And so what happens is when Signal realizes that you're sending a message to another Signal user, it goes by that route.
[48:33.770 --> 48:38.020]  It uses the Signal, uh, system rather than the standard texting system.
[48:38.250 --> 48:51.180]  And what happens is if the recipient is somebody who installed Signal, tried it out, set themselves up as a Signal user, but then just deleted the app without ending their account, without closing their account on the Signal service.
[48:51.920 --> 48:55.520]  Signal thinks that they're still using it and sends your message to them that way.
[48:55.660 --> 48:58.000]  And since they don't have the app, they no longer see it.
[48:58.730 --> 49:07.900]  So the recipient has to bring a close to their experimentation with Signal by shutting down their Signal account through the Signal website.
[49:08.380 --> 49:15.330]  Otherwise, Signal will not know that they've left the service and will keep sending their messages to a Signal app that is not there.
[49:16.210 --> 49:16.860]  And they just won't happen.
[49:16.860 --> 49:25.640]  So Rob, how in God's name do I contact this person to tell them that they have to, they have to, uh, open up Signal again to get my message?
[49:26.040 --> 49:27.020]  This is a nightmare.
[49:27.250 --> 49:33.750]  I went through this with, uh, with a family member and yeah, you have to contact them by other means because they're not going to get your text messages.
[49:34.180 --> 49:45.900]  Um, I, I found out that, uh, I found out that this person, you don't, uh, you don't, and that's, that's, uh, that's a real usability problem with the Signal software.
[49:46.290 --> 49:49.700]  And, uh, so what you have to do is, uh, is just get in touch with them.
[49:49.860 --> 49:54.380]  Um, but when you do a group text, I've I learned this when I was dealing with this.
[49:54.560 --> 49:58.790]  When you do a group text with multiple people and that person is on it, it won't go through Signal.
[49:58.980 --> 50:01.700]  It'll go through regular, Um, SMS, MMS messaging.
[50:02.250 --> 50:09.140]  So, um, you can get to, you can get to them that way if it's on a group message, but, uh, whoever else is on the group message will get it as well.
[50:09.500 --> 50:16.860]  So that's, that's one kind of easy workaround, but mostly you just have to get in touch with that person and tell them, Hey, close your Signal account so we can text again.
[50:17.620 --> 50:17.980]  Okay.
[50:18.100 --> 50:18.440]  Hang on.
[50:18.620 --> 50:19.200]  I got a question.
[50:19.500 --> 50:29.620]  So you're saying if I send a message to somebody on Signal and they've, they've uninstalled Signal or just signed, signed off from it, they haven't deleted themselves.
[50:29.750 --> 50:33.460]  from Signal's database or whatever, they won't get the message.
[50:33.640 --> 50:38.360]  But if I include another person, it'll go through SMS and they will get the message on SMS.
[50:38.620 --> 50:38.980]  Correct?
[50:39.270 --> 50:42.200]  That, that seemed to be the case when I was, uh, when I was dealing with this.
[50:43.360 --> 50:46.960]  Will that work if the other person is also using Signal?
[50:47.660 --> 50:50.660]  That is an interesting question and I, not one I came up against.
[50:50.830 --> 50:52.810]  So I would be interested in hearing if that works.
[50:53.500 --> 50:56.980]  You know, a message to Signal, do better.
[50:56.980 --> 50:57.680]  Yeah.
[50:57.920 --> 50:59.750]  This is not, this is not serving the community.
[51:00.000 --> 51:02.120]  This is really causing some mayhem.
[51:02.440 --> 51:08.810]  I'm glad this, uh, the listener wrote in to ask about this, because I had noticed something similar, um, but I didn't know it was, it was this pervasive.
[51:09.380 --> 51:09.580]  Yeah.
[51:09.730 --> 51:14.960]  And it's, it, a lot of people have run into this and, um, I'm a fan of what the Signal app is trying to do.
[51:15.100 --> 51:26.500]  And I use the software, but, uh, I really, I really think so much of the, uh, open source world kind of tends to skimp on the usability end of things because they assume everyone's as technical as they are and they're the programmers making it.
[51:26.680 --> 51:33.480]  And when something has to be usable by non-experts to really, um, be important and be, uh, be worth putting out there.
[51:33.660 --> 51:36.290]  So, yes, Signal, uh, please do better.
[51:36.560 --> 51:37.040]  Alex?
[51:39.200 --> 51:47.250]  Yeah, I didn't realize that Signal would somehow interject itself in between your SMS messages as well.
[51:47.250 --> 51:51.770]  That, that, that's new...
[51:52.810 --> 51:59.270]  Okay, uh, we started providing into it and, and, and, and did not interject itself in any way.
[51:59.360 --> 52:02.230]  I mean, I, I see that as somewhat problematic, frankly.
[52:02.420 --> 52:13.140]  I mean, if, if it's doing that, I feel like I didn't reasonably consent to allow it to do that or to interject itself into any other messages other than through the Signal platform.
[52:13.140 --> 52:22.940]  But with respect to, to your concern, Emmanuel, about the, uh, the, uh, the constant updates to Signal, um, I think you're referencing the desktop client.
[52:23.080 --> 52:25.920]  The desktop client does appear to be updated all the time.
[52:26.040 --> 52:32.750]  But I would say, you know, from an operational security perspective, the desktop client is just really not a good idea.
[52:33.000 --> 52:46.960]  For something that is end-to-end encrypted, to put it on an endpoint, like a desktop computer, that is just rife with vulnerabilities, especially if it's, if you're, if you're not running the latest version of the OS, you don't have the right patch or something like that.
[52:47.210 --> 52:56.200]  I think from a security perspective, it's just much better to have Signal only on a mobile device, uh, like an iPhone that is inherently unknown to be secure.
[52:59.160 --> 53:02.420]  It certainly, uh, gives us a lot to think about.
[53:03.350 --> 53:08.060]  And, uh, we're, we're coming to the end of, uh, this particular edition of Off the Hook.
[53:09.080 --> 53:12.040]  But, we want you to, uh, keep letting us know what you think.
[53:12.360 --> 53:16.710]  Send us email at oth at 2600 dot com.
[53:17.420 --> 53:19.060]  Uh, tweet at us at Hacker Radio Show.
[53:19.540 --> 53:24.940]  Uh, send us Mastodon Toots at Hacker Radio Show at Mastodon dot social.
[53:25.460 --> 53:36.730]  And, uh, for those of you out there celebrating Halloween this week, have, uh, or this weekend rather, have a safe one, have a sane one, um, have fun with all the scary stuff that we know is not real.
[53:37.520 --> 53:38.160]  And, uh...
[53:38.160 --> 53:39.980]  Can I just break in and say one thing?
[53:40.330 --> 53:40.560]  Of course.
[53:40.600 --> 53:44.500]  Please, people, vote, vote if you are, are eligible on Tuesday.
[53:45.120 --> 53:48.640]  These elections are way more important than you think.
[53:48.810 --> 53:53.230]  Uh, the off years are when people don't turn up, and that's when evil can happen.
[53:53.520 --> 54:00.380]  So, wherever you are, if you, and I'm not telling people how to vote, if you are eligible, get out there and vote.
[54:00.540 --> 54:02.210]  Don't let that opportunity pass by.
[54:02.360 --> 54:03.000]  That's next Tuesday.
[54:04.140 --> 54:04.540]  Absolutely.
[54:04.860 --> 54:06.900]  And, uh, a good, uh, note to end things on.
[54:07.710 --> 54:09.250]  For Off The Hook, this is Rob T.
[54:09.380 --> 54:09.700]  Firefly.
[54:10.040 --> 54:10.750]  Have a good week.
[54:22.830 --> 54:29.190]  I surrender all my love to you.
[54:32.990 --> 54:36.130]  Midnight, what a sweet romance.
[54:38.410 --> 54:43.370]  I know, all my whole life is true.
[54:49.660 --> 54:56.640]  Whatever is that true, these guys were the strongest.
[56:29.960 --> 56:43.460]  When trumpets were mellow, and every gal only had one fellow, no need to remember...
[56:43.460 --> 56:47.180]  Hi, I'm David Kenney of Everything Old is New Again, every Sunday night at 10.
[56:47.460 --> 56:57.080]  Please join me then and please support WBAI at our brand new old number, which is 212-209-2950.
[56:57.480 --> 57:01.600]  Again, that's 212-209-2950.
[57:01.980 --> 57:04.800]  Hey, it's our old number, but it's new again.
[57:04.800 --> 57:08.120]  Because everything old is new again.
[57:08.440 --> 57:09.200]  I like it.
[57:09.200 --> 57:12.900]  Because everything old is new again.
[57:12.900 --> 57:12.920]  Yeah.
[57:12.920 --> 57:13.140]  display!!!
[57:13.140 --> 57:13.640]  key music