[00:00.000 --> 00:07.740]  The previous program was Economic Update with Richard Wolff, heard Wednesdays at 6.30 p.m.
[00:08.600 --> 00:11.180]  right after the WBAI Evening News.
[00:11.760 --> 00:13.860]  Stay tuned for Off the Hook.
[00:14.300 --> 00:21.460]  This is WBAI New York 99.5 FM and WBAI.org Online.
[00:22.700 --> 00:24.540]  It is 7 p.m.
[00:36.240 --> 00:40.000]  Hello, you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:40.180 --> 00:41.140]  It's 7 o'clock.
[00:41.300 --> 00:41.960]  It's a Wednesday night.
[00:42.120 --> 00:43.760]  It's time for Off the Hook.
[01:10.440 --> 01:10.880]  No!
[02:23.590 --> 02:24.990]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:25.070 --> 02:26.930]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:27.210 --> 02:33.090]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this delightful Wednesday evening, joined by Kyle.
[02:33.790 --> 02:34.710]  Yes, I'm over here.
[02:35.370 --> 02:36.070]  Oh, you moved.
[02:36.210 --> 02:36.430]  Okay.
[02:36.650 --> 02:37.130]  Welcome.
[02:37.510 --> 02:37.970]  Yeah, still.
[02:38.350 --> 02:41.010]  I see in Skypeland, I see we have Alex.
[02:43.010 --> 02:44.370]  Good evening, everybody.
[02:45.050 --> 02:46.330]  And I see Gila.
[02:47.150 --> 02:47.450]  Hello!
[02:48.050 --> 02:49.710]  Yeah, I called on you first this time.
[02:49.990 --> 02:51.230]  Usually I put Rob first.
[02:51.610 --> 02:53.730]  And Rob, next to you.
[02:53.930 --> 02:54.590]  How you doing?
[02:55.290 --> 02:55.850]  Good evening.
[02:56.110 --> 03:00.350]  Yeah, a mad scramble, as always, to get on the air.
[03:00.450 --> 03:01.090]  But we did it.
[03:01.170 --> 03:01.570]  We did it.
[03:02.030 --> 03:03.970]  And we have a lot of things to discuss tonight.
[03:04.190 --> 03:07.330]  A lot of fun things, I think.
[03:07.350 --> 03:11.210]  In fact, I think that we have earned this.
[03:25.660 --> 03:31.120]  And that, of course, being the Victory March from Ben-Hur, which is played anytime something is accomplished.
[03:31.120 --> 03:35.020]  And here at WBAI, I believe we have accomplished something.
[03:35.340 --> 03:41.940]  Over the past few years, maybe even decades, you may have noticed that we have been scrambling to survive.
[03:42.280 --> 03:55.040]  And in fact, as recently as a couple of years ago, we had commandos storm into the radio station and kick the doors in and intimidate people and replace all the programming.
[03:55.040 --> 03:58.660]  I might be exaggerating that a little bit, but that's basically what happened.
[03:59.180 --> 04:00.620]  You remember that, right, guys?
[04:00.640 --> 04:01.640]  I'm not just making that up.
[04:02.100 --> 04:03.460]  Oh, yeah, that definitely happened.
[04:03.540 --> 04:03.920]  That happened.
[04:04.660 --> 04:12.240]  And at the time, it was reported in all the papers and all the TV stations and all the other radio stations that WBAI was done.
[04:12.380 --> 04:12.960]  It was history.
[04:14.020 --> 04:16.460]  And financial situation was dire.
[04:17.220 --> 04:19.400]  And that was before COVID even hit.
[04:19.580 --> 04:21.380]  So it's been rough.
[04:21.380 --> 04:22.560]  It's been really rough.
[04:22.560 --> 04:30.260]  But I'm happy to say that for the first time in a long, long time, WBAI actually is in the black.
[04:30.760 --> 04:38.000]  And not only that, we are looking to pay the transmitter bill for the next year, 2022.
[04:38.480 --> 04:53.180]  And we are doing that by having this massive fundraiser in the last few days of December, where we need to raise $250,000 in order to pay the transmitter bill for the next year.
[04:53.320 --> 04:53.940]  Now, think about that.
[04:54.060 --> 04:59.700]  Think of where we are now as compared to where we were a couple of years ago, where we were scrambling just to survive.
[04:59.700 --> 05:06.660]  And we had all kinds of debt and all kinds of really dire situations facing us.
[05:07.180 --> 05:16.060]  And now we're talking about paying off a bill in advance so that we can get back to work and not have to worry about this kind of thing constantly.
[05:16.540 --> 05:28.920]  So we are encouraging people to pledge by calling 212-209-2950 and pledging whatever you can afford, which will definitely help us out.
[05:28.920 --> 05:32.340]  You can become a BAI buddy and pledge every month.
[05:32.630 --> 05:37.920]  You can go to WBAI's website, give2wbai.org.
[05:38.660 --> 05:40.860]  That's give2wbai.org.
[05:41.400 --> 05:42.600]  What do you guys think?
[05:42.880 --> 05:44.100]  Is it amazing?
[05:44.340 --> 05:44.760]  Surprising?
[05:45.120 --> 05:46.640]  I always knew we could do it.
[05:47.740 --> 05:48.760]  It's fabulous.
[05:49.140 --> 05:59.340]  I will say that in my, I don't know, off-radio life, I do work in non-profit development and fundraising.
[05:59.860 --> 06:05.380]  So the fact that we are, we as a station are in this position right now is amazing.
[06:06.160 --> 06:12.100]  With the understanding that everyone is raising funds right now.
[06:12.260 --> 06:21.520]  I know that everyone since Giving Tuesday, everyone has, since before Giving Tuesday, everyone who's got an email address has been absolutely bombarded with requests for support.
[06:21.520 --> 06:33.660]  But with that said, we really hope that you're willing to donate to the Tower Fund because the quicker we can do this, the less we have to bug you for money next year, which is amazing.
[06:34.040 --> 06:38.900]  And the less we have to bug you for money, the fewer times we get preempted during the year.
[06:39.220 --> 06:40.060]  Everybody wins.
[06:40.220 --> 06:41.180]  We stay on the air.
[06:41.300 --> 06:42.600]  We get to talk to you more frequently.
[06:42.600 --> 06:49.840]  So, if you have a moment, please visit towerfund.wbai.org and give until it hurts.
[06:50.000 --> 06:50.620]  Wait, that works?
[06:50.920 --> 06:52.540]  Towerfund.wbai.org?
[06:53.000 --> 06:54.000]  I haven't actually visited that yet.
[06:54.080 --> 06:54.720]  Okay, that's great.
[06:54.880 --> 06:56.800]  So, it's all there in front of you.
[06:58.040 --> 07:02.900]  You know, when I think about where we were only a couple of years ago, we were on the Empire State Building.
[07:03.700 --> 07:06.120]  We weren't threatening to jump, but it was close.
[07:06.120 --> 07:09.200]  Our transmitter was on the Empire State Building.
[07:09.680 --> 07:16.280]  And we were paying a fantastic amount and not the good kind of fantastic.
[07:16.660 --> 07:21.200]  I think it was something like over $50,000 a month just to be on there.
[07:22.480 --> 07:26.300]  And we could not survive that kind of a challenge.
[07:27.100 --> 07:33.440]  And we could not keep up with the spiraling rent that the people at Empire were charging us.
[07:34.780 --> 07:37.700]  Fortunately, we found a much better home, four times square.
[07:39.040 --> 07:40.720]  And that saved us.
[07:40.880 --> 07:42.020]  That really saved us.
[07:42.120 --> 07:45.300]  And we have done good.
[07:45.300 --> 07:49.840]  We have fulfilled the promise and are being responsible.
[07:50.060 --> 07:54.960]  You may have noticed there are less of these shows where we're constantly fundraising.
[07:54.960 --> 08:03.400]  We get preempted every now and then, but we're able to do what we want to do on WBAI, which is a radio show about technology.
[08:03.560 --> 08:16.400]  Now, this is an exception, obviously, because we're going to spend a few minutes just trying to get people enthused about this so that they call in and support the notion of us moving forward rather than falling behind.
[08:16.620 --> 08:25.700]  And also just recognize that we got here because of you, because of listeners, because of the belief in us that you have.
[08:25.700 --> 08:32.400]  And that's why 99.5 FM still exists in New York City and is broadcasting to the tri-state area.
[08:33.660 --> 08:38.560]  Nobody would have predicted this outside of a few people like us.
[08:38.740 --> 08:40.640]  But back in...
[08:40.640 --> 08:41.580]  What was it?
[08:41.700 --> 08:45.020]  It was 2018 that the coup happened?
[08:46.080 --> 08:46.600]  Yeah.
[08:46.860 --> 08:47.500]  It was 2019.
[08:47.880 --> 08:48.820]  Was that 2019?
[08:49.380 --> 08:50.140]  It was.
[08:50.520 --> 08:51.420]  Only two years ago.
[08:51.500 --> 08:52.900]  It was the end of October 2019.
[08:53.340 --> 08:53.900]  My goodness.
[08:55.700 --> 08:57.340]  You know, the writing seemed to be on the wall then.
[08:58.740 --> 09:02.600]  And fortunately, it wasn't made by a permanent marker.
[09:02.600 --> 09:03.600]  And we erased it.
[09:03.740 --> 09:05.560]  And now there's new writing on the wall.
[09:05.880 --> 09:15.180]  So please, join everybody who has called in so far and shown support over the past couple of weeks and until the end of the month.
[09:15.180 --> 09:16.700]  We can raise $250,000.
[09:16.900 --> 09:17.500]  It sounds daunting.
[09:17.860 --> 09:19.660]  But let me explain how it works.
[09:19.660 --> 09:27.900]  If somebody pledges $100 and we talk about that and we say, hey, someone pledged $100, maybe you can pledge $100 too.
[09:28.000 --> 09:28.760]  And three more people do.
[09:28.860 --> 09:30.100]  That's $400 right there.
[09:30.280 --> 09:30.920]  We're one show.
[09:31.520 --> 09:34.040]  And you multiply that by the hours of the day.
[09:35.100 --> 09:42.180]  Inside of a few weeks, yeah, you've raised $250,000 because there are so many people who listen to WBAI and who care.
[09:42.180 --> 09:46.620]  And this goes not only for New York City, it goes throughout the entire world.
[09:47.360 --> 09:57.400]  And if you're listening on WBAI.org, if you're listening to Off the Hook in the future, you can still call 212-209-2950 and pledge whatever you can afford.
[09:57.520 --> 10:01.660]  You can still go to give to WBAI.org and pick a premium.
[10:01.880 --> 10:04.260]  Pick something that will say thank you.
[10:06.480 --> 10:22.120]  And not only do you get the satisfaction of supporting the largest non-commercial radio station, community radio station, true community radio station in New York City or anywhere close to New York City, but you will also get a gift from us.
[10:22.300 --> 10:26.060]  And that's a reminder of the cool person you are.
[10:27.060 --> 10:29.220]  And all these contributions are tax deductible?
[10:29.440 --> 10:30.260]  Oh, absolutely.
[10:30.560 --> 10:30.820]  Absolutely.
[10:30.920 --> 10:32.080]  We're non-profits, so yes.
[10:32.080 --> 10:38.440]  If you're doing end-of-year giving, this is a great opportunity to make that contribution to a worthy cause.
[10:38.600 --> 10:46.080]  Yeah, if your kids and relatives are a bunch of ingrates that, you know, you don't really want to go shopping for, hey, here at WBAI, we're anything but ingrates, okay?
[10:46.120 --> 10:50.140]  We are there for you 24-7 with all kinds of content.
[10:50.240 --> 10:52.260]  And you can be a part of it.
[10:52.400 --> 10:52.900]  You can vote.
[10:53.100 --> 10:56.700]  You can take part in call-in shows.
[10:57.520 --> 11:01.980]  You can even get your own show, probably, if you really devote yourself to it.
[11:02.080 --> 11:02.580]  Go ahead, Rob.
[11:04.220 --> 11:05.020]  Yeah, that's great.
[11:06.220 --> 11:11.000]  As you said, our tower rent used to be over $50,000 a month over at Empire State.
[11:11.220 --> 11:12.200]  And that was nuts.
[11:12.320 --> 11:13.320]  We could not keep up with that.
[11:13.380 --> 11:14.220]  We fell behind in that.
[11:14.400 --> 11:16.420]  But we are at a much better place right now.
[11:16.540 --> 11:17.920]  But we still pay a lot of rent.
[11:18.100 --> 11:24.720]  We are a radio station right in the sweet spot of the FM dial in one of the biggest radio markets in the country, if not the biggest.
[11:25.120 --> 11:26.500]  And that costs a lot.
[11:26.640 --> 11:35.620]  So we do pay about $17,000 a month just for this transmitter, just to keep our equipment on the air and be able to broadcast to you, because that's our job.
[11:35.700 --> 11:36.500]  We're a radio station.
[11:36.620 --> 11:38.460]  And if we can't do that, then what are we doing?
[11:38.940 --> 11:41.600]  And yeah, that's well over $200,000 a year.
[11:41.600 --> 11:49.280]  And as much of that as we could prepay for the next coming year, that would be so amazing for us.
[11:49.360 --> 11:54.720]  So if you go to towerfund.wbai.org, you could see our special campaign page just for the Tower Fund.
[11:54.820 --> 12:00.960]  Or you could call 212-209-2950 and share what you can to help keep us doing what we're doing.
[12:01.120 --> 12:05.980]  And if I could just share a little bit of dirty laundry here, because I'm told I can share this.
[12:06.500 --> 12:10.600]  Back in the day, back around 2000 or so, when we moved to Wall Street...
[12:10.600 --> 12:13.720]  Okay, there was a lot of unrealistic expectations then.
[12:14.180 --> 12:20.900]  A, that we should be on Wall Street with this mega office complex that had spiraling rent costs as well.
[12:21.280 --> 12:25.420]  But also on the Empire State Building, we had...
[12:25.420 --> 12:36.240]  The deal was worked out by the Pacifica Network that actually owns this and four of the radio stations throughout the country, rather than locally.
[12:36.240 --> 12:45.380]  And in so doing, they inadvertently, I don't think it was on purpose, but inadvertently signed a really bad deal.
[12:45.780 --> 12:58.120]  You know, one that the people at WBAI, I don't think, would have agreed to because it allowed for what's known as an elevator clause, where the rent went up by a certain percentage every year.
[12:59.020 --> 13:05.320]  And if you look at a piece of paper, you could see that there's no way we could afford that after a few years.
[13:05.320 --> 13:06.520]  And that's what happened with Empire State.
[13:07.440 --> 13:08.640]  Anybody could have seen it coming.
[13:08.980 --> 13:09.800]  And it happened.
[13:10.040 --> 13:11.160]  And it was very unpleasant.
[13:11.860 --> 13:13.500]  And it could have gone a lot worse.
[13:13.720 --> 13:16.100]  We're not even talking about the coup from a couple of years ago.
[13:16.160 --> 13:17.980]  We're talking about the debt to Empire State Building.
[13:18.100 --> 13:19.300]  That could have gone a lot worse.
[13:19.780 --> 13:21.640]  They could have shut us down.
[13:21.820 --> 13:23.700]  They probably could have come in and taken over the station.
[13:23.820 --> 13:24.240]  Who knows?
[13:24.740 --> 13:25.960]  Fortunately, that didn't happen.
[13:26.040 --> 13:28.600]  All kinds of dire circumstances we're able to avoid.
[13:28.600 --> 13:34.280]  So now we're in a position where, as Rob said, we're paying closer to $17,000 a month.
[13:36.180 --> 13:38.480]  And Pacifica did not make the same mistake.
[13:39.400 --> 13:41.040]  WBAI made the deal locally.
[13:42.180 --> 13:43.600]  And it's a good deal.
[13:43.620 --> 13:44.780]  And we're happy with it.
[13:44.860 --> 13:45.660]  We're happy where we are.
[13:46.280 --> 13:51.060]  And now we can get back to what WBAI was founded for back in 1960.
[13:51.520 --> 13:56.520]  And I want people to congratulate themselves for helping us to get there.
[13:56.520 --> 14:00.140]  Because that is an incredible accomplishment.
[14:00.340 --> 14:01.980]  You won't see it in the newspapers.
[14:01.980 --> 14:04.680]  You won't hear about it on TV and on the other radio stations.
[14:05.080 --> 14:08.000]  They like to report when it's all doom and gloom.
[14:08.080 --> 14:10.840]  And when the coup happened, they were all there.
[14:10.960 --> 14:12.680]  We were on all the stations.
[14:12.680 --> 14:15.780]  It was kind of cool seeing WBAI being reported like that.
[14:16.020 --> 14:18.560]  These retrospectives just came out of nowhere.
[14:18.560 --> 14:27.280]  So excitedly telling the story of the station, giving all kinds of real estate in their publications for this demise.
[14:27.280 --> 14:31.120]  But then we went to court and we won in court.
[14:31.120 --> 14:34.840]  We got the station back from those bastards over on the West Coast.
[14:34.920 --> 14:38.480]  You know, I'm not going to get into specifics.
[14:38.480 --> 14:42.000]  There were a lot of good people that helped us from all different fronts.
[14:43.280 --> 14:44.620]  And we won.
[14:44.800 --> 14:45.420]  We got it back.
[14:45.620 --> 14:49.300]  They didn't report that, but it doesn't matter because we're here.
[14:49.300 --> 14:50.820]  And we're here because of you.
[14:50.940 --> 14:51.880]  Please keep us here.
[14:52.200 --> 14:57.140]  And now that we have rounded the corner, let's accelerate.
[14:57.440 --> 15:02.140]  Let's make it better because stations like WBAI are so needed in this day and age.
[15:02.320 --> 15:04.620]  212-209-2950.
[15:05.160 --> 15:07.420]  Give to WBAI.org.
[15:07.420 --> 15:08.600]  You can pledge any amount.
[15:08.720 --> 15:10.000]  You can become a BAI buddy.
[15:10.000 --> 15:12.380]  The people on the phone will be happy to guide you through that.
[15:12.620 --> 15:14.420]  There are premiums of all sorts.
[15:14.780 --> 15:17.660]  And also, spread the word about WBAI.
[15:17.820 --> 15:18.460]  Tell your friends.
[15:18.580 --> 15:19.100]  Tell your neighbors.
[15:19.220 --> 15:19.760]  Tell your enemies.
[15:19.940 --> 15:21.460]  Tell everybody you can think of.
[15:21.880 --> 15:23.120]  And listen.
[15:23.360 --> 15:27.700]  Listen to the station at different times because who knows what you'll hear.
[15:28.040 --> 15:29.880]  You'll hear programs you didn't know about.
[15:30.400 --> 15:34.320]  I'll hear programs I didn't know about because there's times I don't listen to the radio.
[15:34.900 --> 15:40.820]  We have the archives on WBAI.org where you can listen to shows at other times too.
[15:40.820 --> 15:42.760]  So you don't have to change your schedule.
[15:43.600 --> 15:45.180]  It's really an incredible place.
[15:45.260 --> 15:46.640]  And you can go up and down the dial.
[15:46.800 --> 15:49.260]  And then you can switch over to AM and go up and down that dial.
[15:49.400 --> 15:51.780]  You won't find anything like WBAI.
[15:51.780 --> 15:55.460]  And that's a sad state of affairs.
[15:56.060 --> 15:57.940]  You know, Kyle and I recently traveled across the country.
[15:58.420 --> 16:00.620]  There are no stations like WBAI.
[16:00.700 --> 16:03.380]  The most you can hope for is an NPR repeater.
[16:03.600 --> 16:04.660]  And that's it.
[16:04.800 --> 16:07.840]  With very little community involvement.
[16:08.120 --> 16:09.160]  Here, we're local.
[16:09.340 --> 16:11.160]  We are live right now.
[16:11.320 --> 16:13.820]  It's 442 on July 17th.
[16:13.840 --> 16:14.840]  That proves that we're live.
[16:14.960 --> 16:15.580]  No, I'm kidding.
[16:15.700 --> 16:16.000]  I'm kidding.
[16:16.060 --> 16:18.260]  It's actually 716 p.m.
[16:18.600 --> 16:20.200]  on December 15th, 2021.
[16:20.860 --> 16:21.180]  Yeah.
[16:21.780 --> 16:23.180]  I thought I was...
[16:23.180 --> 16:23.240]  No.
[16:24.560 --> 16:26.300]  212-209-2950.
[16:26.740 --> 16:29.060]  Give to WBAI.org.
[16:29.200 --> 16:30.360]  We are going to get into our show.
[16:30.540 --> 16:32.980]  But I'm going to open it up for any last words on this.
[16:35.220 --> 16:40.300]  All I was going to say is that there are no supply chain issues.
[16:40.380 --> 16:41.380]  There's no weight.
[16:41.600 --> 16:47.860]  If you make a gift to WBAI in someone's name, you can do it.
[16:47.880 --> 16:51.400]  And you can send them a card and say, a gift has been made in your honor.
[16:51.400 --> 16:53.280]  It's the WBAI Tower Fund.
[16:53.500 --> 16:55.560]  It's the gift that keeps on giving.
[16:56.420 --> 17:08.540]  And I think if you're still looking to get someone a gift for the winter solstice or any other occasion that is coming up this month, I think a gift in someone's name to the WBAI Tower Fund.
[17:08.820 --> 17:10.980]  Keep the airwaves moving.
[17:10.980 --> 17:14.240]  I think it's a really wonderful opportunity to take advantage of.
[17:14.420 --> 17:17.940]  Visit towerfund.wbai.org to learn more.
[17:19.720 --> 17:21.840]  Also, you know, you just gave me an idea, Gila.
[17:22.520 --> 17:25.440]  The fact that you can make a gift in someone else's name.
[17:25.860 --> 17:34.220]  Picture somebody who maybe is not quite on board with the various things that we talk about on this station.
[17:35.500 --> 17:44.260]  The right, you know, right of free speech, freedom of choice, pro-choice, all sorts of other things.
[17:45.040 --> 17:47.980]  You know, that nasty uncle you see once a year.
[17:49.240 --> 17:50.940]  Maybe make a donation in their name.
[17:51.880 --> 17:52.540]  I don't know.
[17:52.720 --> 17:53.280]  That's nasty.
[17:53.440 --> 17:54.160]  But you know what?
[17:54.220 --> 17:55.620]  I can be nasty when necessary.
[17:56.360 --> 17:56.840]  Rob, go ahead.
[17:57.860 --> 17:59.100]  It's the good kind of nasty.
[17:59.540 --> 18:05.620]  And yeah, as I often like to remind our listeners, and we really have to say a big thank you to everyone who got us to this point.
[18:06.100 --> 18:15.600]  That really bears recognizing that without you listening to this, we would not have gone to such a place where we could even be thinking about the future instead of digging us out of old holes.
[18:16.060 --> 18:17.540]  And that is thanks to you.
[18:17.540 --> 18:20.860]  That is the only thing that has kept this station running since 1960.
[18:21.620 --> 18:23.480]  And, you know, we don't have commercials.
[18:23.680 --> 18:28.020]  We don't get paid by anybody to tell you what brand of sodas to drink or anything like that.
[18:28.140 --> 18:32.720]  All we do here is make radio, the best radio we can, and we make it for you.
[18:32.780 --> 18:40.680]  And no one tells us what to do or what we can't talk about because we are powered directly by our listeners.
[18:40.940 --> 18:53.860]  This is a product of the listeners, and you can be one of those listeners if you go to towerfund.wbai.org or call 212-209-2950 and help us out and throw in your bit and be part of what goes on here at WBAI.
[18:58.300 --> 19:04.420]  I echo all of the sentiments of all of you gentlemen and gentle ladies as well.
[19:04.680 --> 19:09.860]  And, you know, I'm very excited about the idea of WBAI being in the black.
[19:10.080 --> 19:12.480]  I mean, this is a great moment.
[19:12.480 --> 19:15.400]  I think it was worthy of the Ben-Hur anthem.
[19:16.200 --> 19:17.940]  We don't do that lightly.
[19:18.400 --> 19:19.180]  You know, that's something...
[19:19.300 --> 19:19.880]  It's earned.
[19:20.060 --> 19:21.460]  It's not something we just throw around.
[19:21.660 --> 19:24.500]  So that victory march, that's something to savor.
[19:24.620 --> 19:26.340]  And I can't remember the last time we ever did that.
[19:26.920 --> 19:38.100]  And I just want to say one quick thing, which is thank you to all of the listeners that have supported WBAI over the several decades that I've been hanging around this crazy place.
[19:38.280 --> 19:50.620]  And I want to thank the people who are calling right now, 2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0, I'm pledging whatever they can afford, making those gifts and keeping WBAI strong, making us even stronger.
[19:50.980 --> 19:51.500]  Wow.
[19:51.900 --> 19:52.740]  Good day.
[19:53.200 --> 20:00.620]  So now, shifting gears a little bit, still something rather triumphant out of chaos and misery.
[20:02.820 --> 20:18.340]  We were in dire shape ourselves a few years ago, a couple of years ago even, with both the impending loss of the Hotel Pennsylvania for the HOPE Conference, not because it was about to be destroyed, as supposedly it will be next month.
[20:18.340 --> 20:19.660]  We'll talk about that in a little bit.
[20:20.280 --> 20:30.800]  But because they were raising their prices to a point that we could not possibly afford if we were going to keep the HOPE Conference as something that people could afford to attend.
[20:31.260 --> 20:41.720]  Yeah, you know, they have conferences that cost thousands of dollars to attend that last a couple of days, corporate conferences where the company pays, and it's not for individual people.
[20:41.720 --> 20:43.540]  We never want to do something like that.
[20:43.580 --> 20:44.640]  That's not who we are.
[20:45.840 --> 20:51.120]  We were at a loss trying to find a place to have the conference.
[20:51.120 --> 20:55.800]  Without Hotel Pennsylvania, there really didn't seem to be any other place.
[20:55.900 --> 21:12.680]  But then we started getting suggestions from attendees, from listeners, from readers, and we did some investigation, a lot of research, and we found what we believe to be a new home at St. John's University, which is where we planned for HOPE 2020 to be.
[21:13.000 --> 21:18.940]  Of course, that didn't happen because of the pandemic, but 2022, it will happen.
[21:19.100 --> 21:37.280]  Now, I realize everybody who is here right now, Alex, Rob, Gila, Kyle, myself, we all visited the site a few days ago just to check in, make some plans, and we had a whole bunch of other people joining us too, coordinators of various committees at the conference.
[21:37.880 --> 21:40.940]  And I know a couple of you have seen the place for the first time.
[21:41.420 --> 21:47.040]  I got to say for myself, I'm just absolutely thrilled with the potential here, what we can do.
[21:48.420 --> 22:04.900]  And we basically will be announcing all kinds of things in, I guess, within the next month or so, including ticket sales, a call for participation, all kinds of other ways that people can become involved, and just new ideas.
[22:05.020 --> 22:14.880]  Because this is a space where there is just so much more potential than there was in the confines of a hotel in Midtown Manhattan.
[22:14.880 --> 22:16.940]  Yes, it's not in Midtown Manhattan, and it's in Queens.
[22:17.660 --> 22:19.000]  But it's easy to get to.
[22:19.160 --> 22:23.980]  There's so much happening there and around the site.
[22:24.620 --> 22:26.660]  It's a new chapter for us.
[22:27.080 --> 22:31.740]  And that's why we're calling it A New Hope, because this is something historic.
[22:32.280 --> 22:40.760]  And we hope that people from all over will be a part of that, will help us build something incredibly different and unique.
[22:42.240 --> 22:42.920]  I don't know.
[22:43.000 --> 22:48.240]  I guess I'll leave it to people who have seen the place for the first time, maybe you have some perspective.
[22:50.400 --> 22:52.860]  Yeah, it was my first time going to see this place.
[22:53.020 --> 22:56.740]  I was not in the group that was starting to explore last time around.
[22:56.980 --> 23:00.940]  So when I went along this time, I was really pleasantly surprised.
[23:00.940 --> 23:02.400]  I didn't know what we were getting into.
[23:02.700 --> 23:04.720]  I had heard a little bit from folks who had been there.
[23:06.320 --> 23:12.780]  But just the sheer scope of the things we can do, the infrastructure that is there, it is a university.
[23:13.080 --> 23:13.920]  They have networking.
[23:14.060 --> 23:19.860]  We don't have to sort of jerry-rig things as we got used to doing at the hotel.
[23:21.800 --> 23:33.740]  The stuff that is there for us to use, the space that's there for us to use, and the people there, we cannot oversell how wonderful these people are being to us.
[23:33.740 --> 23:40.420]  The staff there just seem really, really interested in what we're doing, really excited about how they can help us do what we're doing.
[23:41.020 --> 23:45.740]  And it seems like a really, really good situation.
[23:45.740 --> 23:46.820]  There is just so much potential.
[23:47.000 --> 23:49.140]  It's going to be different from Hotel Pennsylvania.
[23:49.600 --> 23:51.060]  It's definitely going to be different.
[23:51.120 --> 23:54.540]  And there's going to be a lot of things that we're figuring out as we go along.
[23:54.940 --> 24:05.420]  But that's all hope ever was, is a great big, sort of wacky project that all of us have been figuring out as we went along for the last couple of decades.
[24:05.760 --> 24:07.760]  And this is going to be a lot of fun.
[24:08.020 --> 24:08.380]  Go ahead, Gail.
[24:08.380 --> 24:12.540]  I was not there for the first time when we went to visit.
[24:12.800 --> 24:13.760]  I had been there before.
[24:14.120 --> 24:18.420]  But one thing that I really enjoyed was getting to see the spaces we're going to be in.
[24:18.580 --> 24:20.200]  And the thing is, it's a university.
[24:20.440 --> 24:21.400]  This is the middle of December.
[24:21.580 --> 24:23.040]  They're in finals right now.
[24:23.220 --> 24:28.760]  So the energy was not entirely dissimilar to what hope is like.
[24:28.920 --> 24:34.360]  There are a lot of people who are really, really seriously focused on one very specific thing.
[24:34.460 --> 24:37.260]  Hang on, you just compared our conference to final exams?
[24:37.940 --> 24:38.360]  Wow.
[24:38.800 --> 24:42.440]  Because I still have nightmares about final exams from college.
[24:43.080 --> 24:43.720]  Me too.
[24:43.740 --> 24:47.160]  And we walked past a group of students who were preparing for a final.
[24:47.340 --> 24:48.220]  I saw their notes.
[24:48.220 --> 24:50.900]  I began to panic because I didn't understand any of them.
[24:51.020 --> 24:52.760]  I knew I was going to fail that final.
[24:52.760 --> 24:54.380]  So I'm glad we got out of the room when we did.
[24:54.800 --> 25:01.720]  But I think there's also a lot to be said for the excitement of being in this place and seeing people in these spaces.
[25:01.900 --> 25:05.960]  Because the last time we went to visit, we saw a lot of empty spaces, which was great.
[25:06.340 --> 25:19.180]  But seeing the people in the spaces where we're going to be having a mental picture of what this is going to look like, of all these amazing opportunities we're going to have, and absolutely the infrastructure that is in place there is going to give us a huge leg up.
[25:19.300 --> 25:22.940]  And yeah, things are going to be different because they have to be.
[25:23.080 --> 25:24.500]  By definition, they have to be different.
[25:24.700 --> 25:30.280]  But I think the opportunities that we have working in this new space, I'm so incredibly excited.
[25:30.860 --> 25:31.640]  Go ahead, Alex.
[25:32.360 --> 25:36.740]  I thought this was, this is going to be great.
[25:36.880 --> 25:37.820]  There's so much potential.
[25:38.060 --> 25:39.720]  It's so easy to get to.
[25:40.640 --> 25:41.800]  Driving there is easy.
[25:41.940 --> 25:43.020]  Taking the bus there is easy.
[25:43.160 --> 25:47.820]  Getting to the, you know, getting to St. John's via the subway was easy.
[25:48.040 --> 25:59.920]  But, you know, more than anything else, and building on what Gila was saying with respect to this being a university, it just felt particularly appropriate to be in a place that's a center of learning, that's going to be the situs of hope.
[26:00.800 --> 26:07.840]  Hope is all about learning and sharing and that's the kind of atmosphere where I think we're really going to flourish.
[26:08.080 --> 26:18.720]  And, you know, we talked a lot about Hotel Pennsylvania and it being, you know, not in the best shape, being a little bit run down, and that being part of its charm.
[26:18.720 --> 26:26.080]  On the other hand, I have to say, St. John's facilities and where we're going to be in particular are absolutely stunning.
[26:26.320 --> 26:27.120]  They're fantastic.
[26:27.120 --> 26:28.000]  They're new.
[26:28.260 --> 26:29.240]  They're up to date.
[26:29.460 --> 26:41.180]  And we're going to have so much space, not only for vendors, for hanging out, but what I thought was particularly promising is the fact that we're going to have a whole bunch of classrooms.
[26:41.820 --> 26:46.080]  and we don't even know exactly what we're going to do with all this space just yet.
[26:46.360 --> 26:51.020]  And that's why this goes back to the fact that there being so much potential.
[26:51.320 --> 27:00.740]  And not only every one of these classrooms, I mean, it's different from when we went to school because, you know, we're not old by any means, but certainly we didn't have...
[27:00.740 --> 27:01.200]  We are.
[27:01.340 --> 27:01.940]  We are old.
[27:02.140 --> 27:04.820]  Well, I guess, you know, maybe that is the case.
[27:05.100 --> 27:09.820]  I just refuse to accept it or acknowledge it, but I certainly do feel it.
[27:10.320 --> 27:15.820]  But every single desk has got an outlet and power to it.
[27:15.880 --> 27:17.440]  It's very, very cool.
[27:17.620 --> 27:20.780]  What I could have done with that in school with an outlet by my desk.
[27:21.220 --> 27:22.520]  Oh, forget about it.
[27:22.700 --> 27:25.640]  Yeah, there would have been brownouts all around Stony Brook.
[27:26.200 --> 27:39.980]  But, you know, what you say about classrooms, yeah, you know, think of them as spaces for all kinds of different projects and workshops and things that we haven't going to be a lot more exciting than just a classroom.
[27:40.200 --> 27:43.680]  It's going to be, you know, a unique space, a different community.
[27:44.140 --> 27:51.220]  And I see this as a lot closer to some of the European conferences we've been to where they just seem to go on endlessly.
[27:51.540 --> 27:56.720]  And the thing is, you know, we have the ability to make it even bigger the next time, too.
[27:56.820 --> 28:02.580]  I think this time it'll be big, but there's so much space on this campus, both inside and outside.
[28:04.060 --> 28:11.360]  And that's, you know, what we do with it this time, I think, will be the defining factor, you know, as to what the true potential is.
[28:11.520 --> 28:12.480]  You have something else, Alex?
[28:13.080 --> 28:15.520]  Yeah, I'm very optimistic about it.
[28:15.620 --> 28:18.480]  I think we're on the right track to get back there in person.
[28:19.700 --> 28:26.540]  And, you know, who knows, maybe we could even host some final exams there in some of those classrooms for Gila.
[28:26.700 --> 28:28.660]  There will probably be radio exams.
[28:28.880 --> 28:40.280]  So, as a part of workshops and the HAM radio certification, that we've done in the past, there's those kinds of considerations.
[28:40.560 --> 28:48.320]  It is a lot of spreading out in new dynamic spaces that we've never really utilized before.
[28:48.320 --> 28:53.860]  So, it is going to take a considerable amount of coordination and creativity.
[28:53.860 --> 29:09.300]  and I think the group and the excitement we had at the hotel and, of course, last time we created talks and stuff for people to stream.
[29:09.460 --> 29:19.320]  We'll be able to come at this with the same spirit but all kinds of differences and changes that are really, really exciting.
[29:19.320 --> 29:36.760]  so I hope I'm glad to hear everyone's reaction because that's part of why the scouting it and experiencing it and sharing it with people has been necessary because it's unfamiliar whereas with the hotel I think a lot of volunteers might be able to do it with their eyes closed or something.
[29:37.300 --> 30:05.840]  I should point out that it is an expansion so we are going to need so many more people to help in various ways both with their ideas their skills their time to make this work and I think we can really do that and start a new chapter in the hacker world where we have this really positive event taking place locally so I'm very much looking forward to that we're going to have more information on
[30:05.840 --> 30:15.060]  accommodations both off campus and on campus and so So many things, but it's all manageable and doable.
[30:15.220 --> 30:17.660]  And I think it's going to be a thrilling time.
[30:17.880 --> 30:18.660]  Go ahead, Gila.
[30:19.300 --> 30:22.820]  The other thing I was going to say is that, yes, there's a lot to be done.
[30:23.060 --> 30:24.440]  It's really exciting.
[30:25.440 --> 30:27.000]  Looking forward to all of hope.
[30:27.220 --> 30:28.280]  I'm very excited.
[30:28.460 --> 30:36.000]  However, I honestly think that one of the most exciting parts about the site visit on Monday was getting to see you guys again.
[30:36.000 --> 30:48.400]  As much as we spend time together on this Skype call every week, having the opportunity to actually be in the same physical space as you guys.
[30:48.520 --> 30:51.140]  Like, I got to hug you guys for the first time in a really long time.
[30:51.300 --> 30:53.940]  And that was... that might be my favorite part of hope.
[30:54.060 --> 30:54.920]  30 seconds.
[30:55.060 --> 30:55.620]  30 seconds.
[30:55.760 --> 30:57.300]  I think 45 seconds.
[30:57.480 --> 30:58.760]  Yeah, it was hard to let go.
[30:58.980 --> 31:01.840]  But first time in so long.
[31:01.840 --> 31:06.460]  And not only us, but a lot of other people traveled from much further to be there.
[31:07.680 --> 31:10.560]  Our coordinator, Greg Newby, came from the Yukon.
[31:11.120 --> 31:14.500]  He actually traveled from the Yukon to be there.
[31:14.580 --> 31:15.720]  That's how important this is.
[31:15.840 --> 31:17.740]  So, yeah, I'm looking forward to this.
[31:17.880 --> 31:25.340]  July 22nd through 24th is the date of the conference, St. John's University here in New York, in Queens.
[31:25.540 --> 31:28.020]  It's going to be awesome, as we alluded to.
[31:28.260 --> 31:29.460]  Easy to get to by car.
[31:29.460 --> 31:39.280]  And what that means is it's accessible by the airports in ways that you have to fight all kinds of things to get to Manhattan from JFK or LaGuardia.
[31:40.260 --> 31:43.380]  It's a 10-minute drive, I think, from either one of those.
[31:43.500 --> 31:45.560]  So it's very conveniently located for people who are traveling.
[31:45.740 --> 31:49.080]  For those who are already in New York, it's still easy to get to.
[31:49.200 --> 31:55.140]  It's not in midtown Manhattan, but that is a plus as far as the things that we want to be able to do.
[31:55.280 --> 31:55.480]  Alex?
[31:56.560 --> 32:10.620]  And one other selling point of this, I think we all noticed, was that from one of the main buildings where Hope is going to be situated, you do have this lovely view of the entire skyline of Manhattan, which you don't get when you're in Manhattan.
[32:10.940 --> 32:12.900]  I mean, look, you're a little farther out.
[32:12.960 --> 32:15.120]  You can't throw a stone or a rock and hit the city.
[32:15.120 --> 32:22.280]  But it is a pretty gorgeous view, and I'm very excited for our Hope participants to get to explore another borough of Manhattan.
[32:22.280 --> 32:27.220]  And you also get trees and fields and things like that, which you don't get by the hotel.
[32:27.400 --> 32:27.780]  Go ahead, Gila.
[32:28.640 --> 32:29.280]  They're trees.
[32:29.540 --> 32:30.080]  They're fields.
[32:30.280 --> 32:35.700]  When you're outside at night, you will be able to see stars, because that is a cool thing you can do in Queens.
[32:35.980 --> 32:43.520]  I will also say, having lived in Queens the entire time I've lived in New York City, I'm definitely a Queens fan.
[32:43.520 --> 32:50.500]  And I would like to remind everyone that Queens County is the most ethnically diverse county in the country.
[32:50.580 --> 32:58.060]  You are guaranteed to see something, learn something new and exciting, just by coming and adventuring around in the neighborhood.
[32:58.240 --> 32:58.820]  It's going to be great.
[32:58.960 --> 33:03.760]  One thing we did that we hadn't done before is explore some of the food options off campus.
[33:03.760 --> 33:08.020]  And we were very happy with what we found within a block of the university.
[33:08.020 --> 33:09.540]  So that's great.
[33:09.720 --> 33:12.200]  You know, we're learning more every time we see the place as well.
[33:12.400 --> 33:14.560]  So with a couple of thousand people...
[33:14.860 --> 33:16.460]  You know, we didn't go the other way up the street.
[33:16.480 --> 33:16.880]  That's true.
[33:16.980 --> 33:17.920]  There's plenty more that we didn't see yet.
[33:18.200 --> 33:19.040]  That's very true.
[33:19.300 --> 33:19.740]  Yeah.
[33:19.740 --> 33:29.740]  And so I guess what we're saying here is, if all goes according to plan, we hope you will join us in this new space.
[33:29.740 --> 33:42.580]  And we are planning all kinds of activities, both at the event and we're going to be looking for places and things to do in the neighborhood as well.
[33:43.100 --> 33:56.140]  And just ways to integrate all of the kinds of things we've showcased and shared with people at previous events and getting to know what's available.
[33:56.140 --> 34:05.040]  And for volunteers and attendees alike, I think there's going to be some really, really fun stuff that we'll be able to celebrate in person with people.
[34:05.160 --> 34:08.800]  The website to keep up to date with all this is hope.net.
[34:08.820 --> 34:10.140]  That's for Hackers on Planet Earth.
[34:10.580 --> 34:14.960]  Hope.net has really nothing on it right now, but that's going to change.
[34:15.060 --> 34:16.260]  That's going to change very quickly.
[34:16.700 --> 34:19.980]  And we'll have all kinds of updates and ways that you can get involved.
[34:20.100 --> 34:22.920]  And, of course, calls for participation, ticket information, all of that.
[34:22.920 --> 34:38.720]  And so over the holidays and prior to the new year here, as you're celebrating, think of things that you might want to do next year and be ready to share and explore with us what is possible.
[34:38.980 --> 34:39.560]  Go ahead, Rob.
[34:40.420 --> 34:46.040]  And there is one other thing that we need to do to ensure that we can do this and do this well.
[34:46.340 --> 34:50.000]  And that's the thing that we have to do to create the world.
[34:50.160 --> 34:53.260]  And I'm going to get really close to my microphone here because this is very important.
[34:53.540 --> 34:53.980]  Create the world.
[34:54.160 --> 34:58.040]  We need to create a world in which something like hope can happen.
[34:58.300 --> 35:01.180]  Something like a gathering of people in a physical space can happen.
[35:01.180 --> 35:04.060]  So be sure to have your vaccinations.
[35:04.320 --> 35:05.460]  Take care of yourselves.
[35:05.680 --> 35:07.300]  Take care of those you love.
[35:07.480 --> 35:08.720]  Make sure they get their shots.
[35:08.900 --> 35:16.420]  And do what you can to act responsibly and constructively through this period that we're going through.
[35:16.580 --> 35:20.880]  And make sure that it doesn't get worse before it's time for us to do this.
[35:21.200 --> 35:21.600]  Absolutely.
[35:22.300 --> 35:24.560]  I could not emphasize that more.
[35:25.500 --> 35:27.800]  Well, so that's some good news.
[35:27.900 --> 35:29.460]  Alex, you have some closing thought on that?
[35:30.000 --> 35:44.160]  One closing thought I'd like to leave you guys with was the feedback that my son, my eight-year-old son that I brought to St. John's University for the site visit with you all, that he shared with me as soon as we left.
[35:44.340 --> 35:50.260]  And he said to me, Daddy, oh, my God, can those guys talk?
[35:50.420 --> 35:52.520]  Do they ever stop talking?
[35:52.820 --> 35:53.240]  All right.
[35:54.580 --> 35:57.680]  I don't know if that's a positive outlook.
[35:57.680 --> 36:00.040]  Look, it was a meeting.
[36:00.380 --> 36:02.840]  We had to address a lot of issues.
[36:03.040 --> 36:03.840]  There was a lot of talking.
[36:04.000 --> 36:04.600]  Yes, I know.
[36:05.120 --> 36:06.440]  Well, there's a lot of planning.
[36:06.560 --> 36:07.380]  I explained that to him.
[36:07.380 --> 36:12.200]  When it was his turn to talk, I noticed he had a lot to say for what he's coordinating there.
[36:13.360 --> 36:13.980]  That's true.
[36:14.060 --> 36:14.740]  That is true.
[36:14.880 --> 36:15.120]  Yeah.
[36:16.120 --> 36:17.280]  But I told him the truth.
[36:17.280 --> 36:19.560]  I said, no, they never stop talking.
[36:19.700 --> 36:20.920]  That's the whole point.
[36:20.920 --> 36:23.300]  Sometimes you have to talk to stop talking.
[36:23.640 --> 36:26.280]  You know, ask me if I wanted to talk necessarily.
[36:26.660 --> 36:28.200]  You know, it's a game.
[36:28.300 --> 36:28.680]  That's true.
[36:28.780 --> 36:30.620]  But it was cool to hear what he had to say.
[36:31.280 --> 36:31.440]  Yeah.
[36:31.800 --> 36:36.040]  And he is the child coordinator, too, because, you know, there's space to have kids there.
[36:36.120 --> 36:39.220]  And we're going to do all kinds of things with Legos and...
[36:39.220 --> 36:39.680]  Lego.
[36:40.520 --> 36:40.880]  What?
[36:40.920 --> 36:42.720]  The plural of Lego is Legos, isn't it?
[36:42.960 --> 36:43.620]  No, it's Lego.
[36:43.780 --> 36:43.980]  Really?
[36:44.560 --> 36:45.600]  Who decides that?
[36:45.740 --> 36:46.340]  It's a company.
[36:47.000 --> 36:48.140]  I don't want to get into that.
[36:48.220 --> 36:49.240]  We have other stuff going on here.
[36:49.240 --> 36:49.680]  All right.
[36:49.780 --> 36:50.240]  Yeah, we do.
[36:51.540 --> 36:53.020]  And this is the future.
[36:53.640 --> 36:55.280]  Let's focus now on the past.
[36:55.440 --> 36:57.160]  We've done the present with WBAI.
[36:57.420 --> 36:58.900]  We've done the future with Hope.
[36:59.060 --> 37:03.020]  And now let's look at our previous home for Hope, Hotel Pennsylvania.
[37:03.380 --> 37:11.220]  There was a webinar, I guess is the best way to describe it, by the Empire Station Coalition.
[37:12.640 --> 37:14.380]  And that happened...
[37:14.380 --> 37:15.160]  When did that happen?
[37:15.180 --> 37:15.860]  A couple of weeks ago?
[37:16.540 --> 37:21.760]  It was basically a bunch of people that are concerned with what's going on in that region.
[37:22.020 --> 37:38.980]  And there's a massive, massive plan to destroy lots of buildings and, in my opinion, build a lot of useless office towers while claiming to improve mass transit, claiming to improve Penn Station and things like that.
[37:39.300 --> 37:44.960]  I maintain you can improve Penn Station fine without destroying the history that is around it.
[37:45.160 --> 37:53.720]  And I think there's no better place in the city to know that lesson because of the old Penn Station that was destroyed at that very site in the early 1960s.
[37:54.880 --> 38:07.880]  What I'm going to do is play a little bit of that meeting that took place just to give you a sense as to the other people that are interested in what's going on there.
[38:08.760 --> 38:10.620]  It's not a hopeless situation.
[38:10.800 --> 38:13.680]  I think there is still something that we can do about it.
[38:14.320 --> 38:19.020]  But let's listen to what these people had to say for a few minutes, and we'll be back right afterwards.
[38:20.060 --> 38:23.780]  It's like Paris or London or Rome or, you know, you name it, right?
[38:24.400 --> 38:26.720]  So on the one hand, that's what strikes me.
[38:26.820 --> 38:34.800]  And what's astounding about what's going on right now with the Hotel Pennsylvania is that the exact same arguments were used.
[38:35.000 --> 38:37.220]  So we have people from Agbenny on this call.
[38:38.400 --> 38:44.080]  The exact same arguments are being used by Steve Roth and Bernardo right now that were used back then.
[38:44.220 --> 38:53.740]  And for all the protesting and having Mr. Johnson there and, you know, eventually getting Jackie Kennedy involved, thank God, to save Grand Central, right?
[38:53.940 --> 38:58.860]  We lost the station because we couldn't influence the process.
[38:59.160 --> 39:02.860]  So the thing I would say is that I think we need to revise the approach.
[39:03.040 --> 39:04.080]  I mean, it's fine to protest.
[39:04.340 --> 39:05.420]  It's fine to call your politicians.
[39:05.420 --> 39:06.960]  It's fine to get your voice out there.
[39:07.060 --> 39:07.840]  It's fine to do whatever.
[39:08.480 --> 39:14.260]  But I was actually looking down the list of the board of directors of Fornado Realty Trust tonight.
[39:14.320 --> 39:30.780]  And I think everyone on this call ought to look down that list and see if they know anyone on that list and call them up and find out if they can get to them or to Steve Roth, who's the chairman, or, you know, buy some shares in Fornado and show up to a shareholder meeting because until we can affect Fornado,
[39:31.260 --> 39:36.740]  we won't stop another venal developer from giving us a fifth-rate city.
[39:37.860 --> 39:44.140]  And my call to action is, like, take some action that will actually affect the outcome here.
[39:44.140 --> 39:52.020]  Because otherwise, come January or February, Steve Roth has had a demolition permit for the Hotel Pennsylvania in hand since 2008.
[39:53.080 --> 39:59.020]  And, you know, according to the latest websites, you know, they've cleared out the mattresses, they've cleared out the rooms, they've cleared everything.
[39:59.120 --> 40:02.120]  They're going to start demolition in January or February of next year.
[40:03.220 --> 40:10.300]  And going out there and chaining ourselves with the building and protesting and getting in the New York Times, if we even could do that, won't affect the outcome.
[40:10.800 --> 40:21.700]  So we're going to have to actually go and try to affect the people that have control of this and get them to understand that we do live in the greatest city on Earth, and it should look like that.
[40:23.040 --> 40:24.780]  And that's really my only point.
[40:25.060 --> 40:25.720]  But thank you.
[40:28.020 --> 40:28.880]  Thank you, Richard.
[40:29.080 --> 40:30.020]  I appreciate that.
[40:30.560 --> 40:33.240]  Okay, Sam, I think we're ready to go to the Q&A.
[40:38.040 --> 40:39.340]  Okay, I think that's right.
[40:39.340 --> 40:48.700]  And the members of the Empire Station Coalition can turn their videos on, and Ann will help direct questions.
[40:49.180 --> 40:55.940]  As I said, we'll take one or two live questions, and then take some of the written questions that have been building up as well.
[40:56.020 --> 40:57.500]  And we will try to get to everyone.
[40:57.900 --> 41:01.840]  And if we don't tonight, please keep you after us, and we will make sure to get to you.
[41:03.140 --> 41:04.620]  So do we want to start with...
[41:04.620 --> 41:07.160]  We'll start with the first question that was asked quite a while ago.
[41:07.160 --> 41:18.660]  From what I've read and heard, Vernado's big influencing excuse is that they're having financial difficulties and can't afford to restore the white elephants, like the Hotel Pennsylvania.
[41:18.960 --> 41:22.640]  So the poor deers have to destroy everything to make a profit, to stay aloft.
[41:22.860 --> 41:23.960]  Any comments on that?
[41:24.880 --> 41:25.420]  Brad?
[41:25.800 --> 41:27.800]  Yeah, I'd be happy to jump in on that.
[41:27.940 --> 41:32.680]  I think that is, to put it mildly, completely bunk.
[41:32.680 --> 41:37.540]  Look, there are all kinds of examples around the country.
[41:37.540 --> 41:45.560]  If you look at the NTCIC, it's the National Trust Community Investment Corporation.
[41:45.820 --> 41:49.980]  This is a wing of the National Trust for Historic Preservation.
[41:50.500 --> 42:02.200]  And it's focused specifically on using various tax credits to put together a package that can restore large-scale historic buildings and adaptively reuse them.
[42:02.420 --> 42:10.680]  And hotels, I can tell you from my time in New Orleans, post-Katrina, are absolutely part of what they focus on.
[42:10.800 --> 42:17.920]  There are many examples in New Orleans, Baton Rouge, Baltimore, all over the country.
[42:18.740 --> 42:27.620]  It is about whether the owner decides that they have a will to adaptively reuse a building.
[42:27.620 --> 42:33.360]  That is what makes the decision for the fate of buildings like Hotel Pennsylvania.
[42:34.000 --> 42:39.900]  We, unfortunately, have a situation where the owner just does not want to go down that path.
[42:40.860 --> 42:49.460]  But it is eminently possible, it is absolutely something that can be done, and there are ways to do it, and there are precedents all around the country.
[42:51.540 --> 42:52.320]  Thanks, Brad.
[42:53.800 --> 43:00.440]  I would just say, Joy, I think you asked what's the best argument that would flatten this overinflated excuse.
[43:00.440 --> 43:18.460]  And I would say the Hotel Martinique, which is being funded by Midwestern investors, you know, we should get the same renderer who did that rendering, and the Hotel Pennsylvania could be.
[43:18.620 --> 43:21.220]  And actually, Richard did some work a while back for Blonado.
[43:21.600 --> 43:25.540]  It could be a wonderful hotel, or any number of other uses.
[43:25.540 --> 43:40.080]  And so, but I think the Hotel Martinique, to me, which is a block away, on a neighborhood that's growing and improving and maintaining much of the history, albeit there are some solar hotels going in below 30th Street.
[43:40.900 --> 43:46.860]  But they're doing some interesting things over there, and that New York character and feel is a winner.
[43:47.540 --> 43:49.480]  Can I add something to that?
[43:50.440 --> 43:50.740]  Go ahead.
[43:51.920 --> 43:56.140]  Well, first of all, why is anybody worried about Fernando?
[43:58.080 --> 44:05.800]  They wouldn't know how to do a preservation project if it fell in their lap.
[44:06.080 --> 44:18.020]  They are totally new, development-oriented, and who cares if what they say, short of money, give me a break.
[44:18.020 --> 44:19.920]  I'm not interested in them.
[44:19.920 --> 44:27.660]  It's the politicians, it's the governor, those are the people who need to be targeted.
[44:28.380 --> 44:48.600]  And furthermore, one of the things occurred to me as the presentations went on, one of the most interesting things, and I've referred to this in various points, the most interesting thing happening in the city is the moving into old buildings, often historic buildings,
[44:48.840 --> 44:56.040]  of the biggest tech companies in the country, Amazon, Google, all of them, Apple.
[44:56.040 --> 45:14.520]  And this is scaring the daylights out of the new developers, because the real interest in people with people with taste is for existing buildings that have character.
[45:14.520 --> 45:21.560]  You don't see them flocking to Hudson Yards so quickly, but they are moving into Lord and Taylor's.
[45:21.660 --> 45:24.920]  They're moving into all of Chelsea.
[45:24.920 --> 45:30.800]  They're moving into the existing historic buildings designated or not.
[45:31.060 --> 45:38.420]  Secondly, forget trying to persuade the Landmarks Commission to do anything.
[45:38.420 --> 45:46.840]  They are the worst they have been in years, and they would never touch anything as politically sensitive as this.
[45:47.140 --> 45:50.980]  Go to the places where you can have an impact.
[45:51.280 --> 45:59.720]  And that is clearly on the politicians involved and some of the others.
[45:59.720 --> 46:06.740]  But don't waste your breath on advocating a historic district.
[46:07.060 --> 46:18.060]  That commission now wouldn't know how to declare a historic district in some of the most fundamental districts that we exist.
[46:18.280 --> 46:23.280]  And as far as Bernardo is concerned, I wouldn't believe a word they say.
[46:23.280 --> 46:37.040]  And someone in the chat said that the Empire State Development Corporation made a survey of the district like I was referring to.
[46:37.280 --> 46:39.080]  Do you believe their numbers?
[46:39.080 --> 46:56.200]  I have not, in 50 years of covering this city, ever seen a report from a planning agency, state or local, that it was not filled with, if not lies, at least errors.
[46:56.520 --> 47:00.300]  They're going to give you the information they want you to have.
[47:00.560 --> 47:05.320]  It's your own information is the only information you can trust.
[47:07.460 --> 47:09.000]  Thank you, Roberta.
[47:09.080 --> 47:11.080]  Well, I appreciate that.
[47:12.520 --> 47:13.380]  All right.
[47:13.540 --> 47:15.260]  And that was an excerpt.
[47:15.380 --> 47:18.700]  I could listen to that all night long from the Empire State Coalition.
[47:19.000 --> 47:22.460]  You can find that on YouTube, Empire State Coalition Public Forum.
[47:22.780 --> 47:24.600]  It's public forum number five.
[47:24.780 --> 47:27.700]  Demolishing our cities doesn't make them better.
[47:28.520 --> 47:34.580]  And it's just, it kind of shows that there are more people who care about this than we might think.
[47:34.580 --> 47:41.700]  You know, I feel sometimes like we're alone when we bemoan the various injustices that take place.
[47:41.840 --> 47:46.120]  And the demolition, you know, impending demolition of Hotel Pennsylvania is one of them.
[47:46.300 --> 47:51.900]  But there are lots of people who are trying to save not only that structure, but the entire neighborhood.
[47:52.940 --> 47:56.060]  What do we know about the Empire Station Coalition?
[47:56.440 --> 47:57.780]  Rob, do you know something about them?
[48:01.280 --> 48:01.900]  You're muted, Rob.
[48:04.360 --> 48:05.180]  Sorry about that.
[48:05.640 --> 48:08.240]  Yeah, the, the, just a small correction.
[48:08.420 --> 48:11.240]  It is the Empire Station Coalition, not the Empire State Coalition.
[48:11.440 --> 48:15.900]  But if you go on YouTube and look up the Empire Station Coalition, you can find their channel.
[48:16.120 --> 48:23.840]  You can see the video that we just played a segment of, if you go to the most recent video as of today's date when we're broadcasting.
[48:23.840 --> 48:26.700]  And they, they are an interesting organization.
[48:26.700 --> 48:42.600]  They're, they're basically a coalition of lots of smaller community organizations, local history organizations that have all banded together to basically try and get people in power to rethink this, this big plan for the, for the Penn Station area.
[48:42.600 --> 48:53.860]  And that voice you heard at the beginning was Richard Cameron, who himself is an architect of renown and an architecture historian, he, he, and someone who knows of what he speaks with this stuff.
[48:54.160 --> 49:03.740]  And, yeah, they're, they're doing work still to try and get this word out and try and get the attention of people who are actually in a position to change what's going on.
[49:04.660 --> 49:07.040]  And, and, yeah, it's worth keeping an eye on what they do.
[49:07.140 --> 49:09.280]  The Empire Station Coalition, find them on YouTube.
[49:10.080 --> 49:12.180]  Yeah, I definitely recommend watching that.
[49:12.180 --> 49:13.320]  It's, it's intriguing.
[49:13.540 --> 49:21.380]  I almost was late to the show because I was, I was just so captivated by what they were saying and, and the intelligence and, and the, the measuredness of it all.
[49:21.840 --> 49:28.460]  Yeah, chaining yourself to the hotel probably isn't going to help, but putting pressure on politicians, that will.
[49:28.660 --> 49:36.140]  And I, I, I really understand what people are saying when they say, don't, don't care about Vernado.
[49:36.340 --> 49:37.600]  Why should we care about them?
[49:37.920 --> 49:39.340]  They certainly don't care about us.
[49:39.560 --> 49:39.980]  Yes, Alex.
[49:39.980 --> 49:52.440]  Yeah, building upon the recording that we just heard, I, I completely echo the sentiments of the wonderfully wise woman who claimed that the Landmarks Preservation Commission was utterly useful.
[49:52.440 --> 49:55.320]  I will take any opportunity to bash those people.
[49:55.540 --> 50:07.760]  I mean, if you look at what the LPC, the Landmarks Preservation Commission, has been landmarking over the last several years, they have no qualms about landmarking very architecturally unremarkable buildings.
[50:08.220 --> 50:14.260]  If they have some kind of cultural or historical significance, that is the definition of Hotel Pennsylvania.
[50:14.520 --> 50:16.220]  I don't know why they've been sitting on their hands.
[50:16.380 --> 50:17.200]  Why can they do nothing?
[50:17.340 --> 50:24.440]  And why did they go for the jugular when it came to the Strand Building and the, the, the dispute that we had with them?
[50:24.440 --> 50:31.500]  The other thing I want to mention, and I think this is a very good point, which is to go after the politicians that are sitting idly by and letting this happen.
[50:31.500 --> 50:38.300]  Well, the city councilman, in whose district Hotel Pennsylvania resides, is none other than Corey Johnson.
[50:38.780 --> 50:49.120]  And Corey Johnson was somebody to whom we sought counsel and, and hopefully help during our word dispute with the Landmarks Preservation Commission and the Strand.
[50:49.440 --> 50:52.060]  And let me tell you what he did to help us out.
[50:52.500 --> 50:53.520]  Absolutely nothing.
[50:54.180 --> 50:55.500]  Absolutely nothing.
[50:55.500 --> 51:03.340]  It took about six or seven emails over the course of, I would say, at least a week, even to just get a meeting with this guy.
[51:03.540 --> 51:05.360]  And then he didn't even show up to the meeting.
[51:05.500 --> 51:07.740]  He sent over some members of his staff.
[51:08.080 --> 51:18.960]  So, I mean, it doesn't surprise me that he's sitting around and, and, and similarly doing nothing while a absolutely, wonderfully historic building is about to be demolished.
[51:19.260 --> 51:20.560]  It's, it's very, very sad.
[51:20.720 --> 51:22.660]  But, hey, give Corey Johnson a call.
[51:22.940 --> 51:23.920]  Ask him what's going on.
[51:24.060 --> 51:25.300]  I think he'd love to hear from you.
[51:26.080 --> 51:35.760]  And, uh, if you follow the, um, um, the, the links, you know, to, uh, to these organizations, uh, Empire Station Coalition, did I get it right this time, Rob?
[51:36.360 --> 51:36.900]  Yes, indeed.
[51:37.420 --> 51:38.460]  You know, talk to them.
[51:38.940 --> 51:40.240]  Uh, maybe there is hope.
[51:40.360 --> 51:45.980]  Maybe there, there is something that, uh, somebody with connection, somebody that does take an interest in this sort of thing.
[51:46.320 --> 51:54.540]  Uh, you know, maybe, uh, maybe some, some super rich person will just buy the hotel and, and, and, and preserve it or restore it.
[51:54.540 --> 52:01.240]  Because, you know, having, having a hotel with over a thousand rooms in that location is a good thing for the city.
[52:01.340 --> 52:05.740]  There's just no question about that because those are tourists who are staying here.
[52:05.740 --> 52:10.540]  And to simply demolish it and put up an office tower instead, who does that serve?
[52:11.100 --> 52:16.900]  You know, uh, after the pandemic, many people are not coming into the city to work anymore.
[52:17.140 --> 52:20.120]  They are coming to the city to be tourists, though.
[52:20.120 --> 52:24.000]  And if you have affordable options for those people, there will be more of them.
[52:24.140 --> 52:26.560]  And the entire economy benefits from that.
[52:26.700 --> 52:28.560]  You know, I'm not an economist, but I know that much.
[52:28.700 --> 52:30.400]  I also know something about greed.
[52:30.660 --> 52:40.160]  And those people who have all of this real estate, uh, all of this, uh, uh, income, um, they don't really care about paying taxes.
[52:40.380 --> 52:44.260]  They don't really care about the economies that surround them and that they influence.
[52:44.260 --> 52:48.440]  They care about simply making more and more and more.
[52:49.340 --> 52:52.720]  And this is, this is a sad example of that.
[52:53.300 --> 52:54.100]  It's unfortunate.
[52:54.280 --> 52:58.900]  It's also potential demolition of some real history in New York City.
[52:59.000 --> 53:00.660]  New York City, that's known for its history.
[53:00.900 --> 53:03.780]  The, the old buildings that are right next to the brand new buildings.
[53:03.820 --> 53:05.780]  That's, that's the magic of New York.
[53:06.140 --> 53:08.360]  And, and we can't let that be, uh, be destroyed.
[53:08.760 --> 53:09.580]  Uh, you know what?
[53:09.600 --> 53:10.480]  We're almost out of time.
[53:10.660 --> 53:13.620]  So, um, we're going to have to continue our conversation on overtime.
[53:14.260 --> 53:15.080]  How do you get to overtime?
[53:15.280 --> 53:21.440]  You simply go to youtube.com slash channel 2600, channel 2600.
[53:22.080 --> 53:27.080]  And, uh, you can also follow the link that's on the main 2600.com webpage.
[53:27.460 --> 53:30.160]  I know, uh, Kyle, you had, you had one thing to, uh, to announce or.
[53:30.480 --> 53:30.780]  Oh yeah.
[53:30.780 --> 53:30.980]  Yeah.
[53:30.980 --> 53:33.200]  I got my, uh, Christmas card from AT&T.
[53:33.820 --> 53:34.720]  Um, you did.
[53:34.860 --> 53:35.140]  Yeah.
[53:35.360 --> 53:35.600]  Yeah.
[53:35.820 --> 53:38.320]  And it says, uh, we've updated your contract terms.
[53:39.260 --> 53:52.300]  Any account you have with us will be governed by AT&T CSA agreement, including updates for our agreement that we will resolve any disputes by individual arbitration and not by jury trial or class action.
[53:52.480 --> 53:54.280]  What in hell are you talking about?
[53:55.440 --> 54:01.540]  If I continue to do business with them, I agree and am bound by their new CSA.
[54:01.760 --> 54:02.700]  And that's great.
[54:02.840 --> 54:03.340]  That's great.
[54:03.340 --> 54:09.480]  Um, uh, and this may not be applicable, but, um, I used to use a BlackBerry.
[54:09.800 --> 54:10.040]  Oh yeah.
[54:10.120 --> 54:10.800]  Are you familiar with that?
[54:10.860 --> 54:11.440]  We all are familiar with that.
[54:11.440 --> 54:12.440]  It's a type of phone.
[54:12.640 --> 54:12.920]  Uh-huh.
[54:13.040 --> 54:16.940]  And I know other people have other types of phones and this may not, and nobody cares.
[54:16.940 --> 54:19.400]  People with BlackBerrys probably don't care anymore, but.
[54:19.940 --> 54:20.960]  BlackBerry doesn't care anymore.
[54:20.960 --> 54:27.760]  Yeah, well, one of those services that I would love to sue someone about is just being shut down.
[54:27.980 --> 54:28.500]  Uh-huh.
[54:28.580 --> 54:32.360]  Kind of like what we were warning about with radio stations and different technologies.
[54:32.800 --> 54:39.400]  And, and so anyway, um, the last vestiges of BlackBerry 10 will be shut down January 4th.
[54:39.560 --> 54:40.140]  Oh no.
[54:40.760 --> 54:43.400]  You know, the, the, the show has taken kind of a negative turn.
[54:43.680 --> 54:48.540]  And along with that, there's a couple other shutdowns just in the world of wireless and phones.
[54:48.540 --> 54:52.520]  AT&T is shutting down 3G, February, 2022.
[54:53.660 --> 54:54.380]  Let's discuss this.
[54:54.380 --> 54:56.060]  T-Mobile is shutting it down at the end of March.
[54:56.440 --> 55:03.580]  Let's discuss this on overtime because we don't have to censor ourselves on overtime and you can really exert your passion.
[55:03.760 --> 55:04.080]  That's a good idea.
[55:04.180 --> 55:04.480]  You're right.
[55:04.640 --> 55:04.860]  You're right.
[55:05.260 --> 55:08.120]  Again, overtime, overtime beginning at 8 p.m.
[55:08.180 --> 55:12.960]  just in a few minutes on channel 2600 over on youtube.com.
[55:13.220 --> 55:15.580]  And please support WBAI.
[55:15.760 --> 55:16.560]  Keep us strong.
[55:16.560 --> 55:22.180]  Help us move into 2022 with renewed strength and, and paying bills in advance.
[55:22.500 --> 55:23.160]  Imagine that.
[55:23.400 --> 55:28.600]  212-209-2950 or give to WBAI.org.
[55:28.620 --> 55:32.500]  And you can go to those places around the clock.
[55:32.500 --> 55:38.800]  But please, show your support, spread the word, and write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[55:39.320 --> 55:40.340]  That's our email address.
[55:40.540 --> 55:42.500]  We'll be back again at 7 p.m.
[55:42.780 --> 55:44.220]  on WBAI next week.
[55:44.460 --> 55:47.200]  Again, stay tuned for overtime in a few minutes over on YouTube.
[55:47.720 --> 55:47.980]  Good night.
[55:49.140 --> 55:54.080]  Oh yeah, and I should probably say rest in peace to Robbie Shakespeare, who we're hearing right now.
[55:54.820 --> 55:58.280]  Probably the greatest bass player ever.
[55:59.280 --> 56:02.180]  And, um, half of Sly and Robbie.
[56:02.620 --> 56:05.040]  Basically played on every reggae song ever made, it seems.
[56:06.800 --> 56:08.540]  Yeah, another, another sad note.
[56:09.160 --> 56:09.860]  We'll see you next week.
[56:09.980 --> 56:10.100]  Good night.
[56:35.720 --> 56:36.240]  Good night.
[00:00.720 --> 00:03.420]  And welcome to everybody over on YouTube.
[00:04.080 --> 00:10.320]  We are hopefully broadcasting properly over the internet.
[00:11.580 --> 00:13.340]  I'm trying to raise our levels a little bit.
[00:13.400 --> 00:18.100]  I know they've been somewhat low on YouTube, so we're doing our best to fix the situation.
[00:18.100 --> 00:21.120]  We sound good on the radio, and sometimes on YouTube we sound low.
[00:22.600 --> 00:25.700]  And we're still waiting for confirmation from Rob that we are in fact on you.
[00:25.780 --> 00:26.160]  We are, okay.
[00:26.160 --> 00:29.440]  Okay, so now we can continue our conversation.
[00:29.640 --> 00:36.540]  Oh, Kyle, you had some impassioned things to say about BlackBerry or AT&T or T-Mobile or all the phone companies.
[00:36.780 --> 00:40.260]  Well, yeah, I just think there's a couple things going on there.
[00:41.120 --> 00:44.420]  And the last date, I guess, was Verizon.
[00:44.420 --> 00:46.820]  They're shutting down 3G at the end of 2022.
[00:46.820 --> 01:03.120]  In other parts of the world, they're keeping predecessors to 3G for low power situations or low bandwidth, a la like an emergency and disaster relief, so on and so forth.
[01:03.280 --> 01:04.540]  So it's interesting.
[01:04.760 --> 01:12.860]  I'm curious if we're going to see smaller installations like low power versions or private versions using that.
[01:12.860 --> 01:26.160]  I know the major characters are reallocating some of the spectrum at the levels of power they use to fit more channels of 5G, the next evolution in wireless.
[01:26.420 --> 01:34.520]  So there's going to be some repurposing of it, at least insofar as the commercial licensing of that spectrum.
[01:34.520 --> 01:45.280]  But there are smaller kit and low power versions and ways to make use of...
[01:45.280 --> 01:51.000]  That's my main thing, I think, is just how will hardware not become waste immediately?
[01:51.300 --> 01:59.500]  Because there have been in the past people that didn't have service but used older handsets to make emergency calls.
[01:59.520 --> 02:01.080]  We've covered a lot of this stuff over and over again.
[02:01.080 --> 02:04.740]  I don't want to get, you know, do retrospective necessarily.
[02:05.120 --> 02:16.680]  And the OS thing, yeah, just having an entire phone system shut down or be shut down because the curator of it wants to go in a different direction.
[02:16.880 --> 02:23.500]  And I'm not really expecting a whole lot of, like, technical advice from people or input or...
[02:23.500 --> 02:27.240]  I mean, I am curious, like, what people that really like the handsets are doing.
[02:27.240 --> 02:33.140]  I know you can run your own enterprise version of a BlackBerry and control the handset that way.
[02:33.540 --> 02:41.020]  Of course, again, getting spectrum and using the frequencies that it uses, you would have to be at a very low power to even experiment.
[02:41.200 --> 02:48.240]  You probably have to have, like, a technician's license of sorts to even demonstrate it, like, at a hacker conference.
[02:48.380 --> 02:49.260]  But there's...
[02:49.260 --> 02:52.720]  So anyway, there's all this hardware that's just kind of going to sit idle.
[02:52.720 --> 03:02.360]  And I just say others should heed it as a warning that, like, hey, like, what if Apple was just like, you know, we don't want to support iOS anymore.
[03:02.360 --> 03:03.500]  We're going in a different direction.
[03:03.840 --> 03:03.980]  But that's what they do.
[03:04.080 --> 03:05.260]  Apple does that all the time.
[03:05.460 --> 03:07.720]  That's why people have to buy 20 iPhones in their lifetime.
[03:07.980 --> 03:08.200]  Yeah.
[03:08.780 --> 03:09.180]  Or...
[03:09.180 --> 03:10.580]  But it just seemed...
[03:10.580 --> 03:10.980]  It just...
[03:10.980 --> 03:11.660]  Yeah, exactly.
[03:11.880 --> 03:14.540]  So it, I guess, does happen and it isn't so unique.
[03:14.700 --> 03:15.840]  But this was...
[03:15.840 --> 03:20.100]  And this was in the works anyway for that particular operating system.
[03:20.160 --> 03:22.100]  And the user base was just not there.
[03:22.100 --> 03:31.200]  Like, it was diminishing and the features of some of the newer handsets and the operating systems they use were just that much more desirable.
[03:31.240 --> 03:47.100]  And as soon as businesses started integrating them and allowing them to be a part of their networks more regularly and they could accommodate for them in the mixed environments of, you know, people using them for work and, of course, going back and forth or telecommuting,
[03:47.260 --> 03:54.860]  whatever it was, as they adopted it and got better at it, these business-oriented devices just fell further out of favor.
[03:55.060 --> 03:57.480]  So I just think it's kind of an interesting thing.
[03:57.580 --> 03:58.280]  So I don't know.
[03:58.360 --> 03:59.560]  I don't want to keep going on about it.
[04:00.260 --> 04:01.940]  Well, it's important to let people know.
[04:02.060 --> 04:05.400]  And it's kind of sad, actually.
[04:05.640 --> 04:06.240]  Well, it's...
[04:06.240 --> 04:09.900]  I'm kind of used to it at this point because everything I seem to...
[04:09.900 --> 04:16.220]  I go for some of the weirder, different paths in these, at least in wireless.
[04:16.540 --> 04:17.160]  And so I...
[04:17.160 --> 04:18.160]  You shouldn't be punished for that.
[04:18.300 --> 04:18.520]  Yeah.
[04:18.600 --> 04:19.980]  It's weird how it's just...
[04:19.980 --> 04:22.820]  Like, they were planning on discontinuing it and it was like...
[04:22.820 --> 04:24.460]  But you're really left with nothing.
[04:24.600 --> 04:30.520]  Like, they kind of barely supported it and then pushed some of the deadlines a little bit.
[04:30.720 --> 04:33.280]  And, like, they did security stuff for a little bit.
[04:33.420 --> 04:33.680]  There was...
[04:34.540 --> 04:47.100]  But, of course, their direction was going into smart vehicles and offering their sort of security service platform more so than the traditional handset that they're known for.
[04:47.120 --> 04:50.160]  So maybe spin off and have a company that just deals with that.
[04:50.400 --> 04:56.540]  You know, it's just such a waste to have a technology that people want to be able to use and there's no support for it.
[04:56.720 --> 04:56.900]  Yeah.
[04:56.980 --> 04:59.700]  And another trend that's kind of really common is licensing.
[04:59.700 --> 05:04.180]  And so licensing a type of handset and having someone manufacture it.
[05:04.320 --> 05:09.840]  And there were talks of creating a new or several newer versions of the BlackBerrys.
[05:09.980 --> 05:23.840]  But, you know, as someone who has used it, if you have this, like, unique, proprietary, different sort of OS and it's lauded for certain features, but then, like, there's no real support.
[05:23.980 --> 05:27.340]  Like, it's great if somebody stands up to get the handset manufactured.
[05:27.340 --> 05:34.580]  But if just, if it's only going to disappoint, like, when that falls out of favor or they don't want to support it.
[05:34.660 --> 05:36.580]  And this is common with so much hardware.
[05:36.820 --> 05:38.500]  There's no support for firmware.
[05:38.760 --> 05:40.680]  There's, they lose interest.
[05:40.680 --> 05:42.160]  They want to move to the next model.
[05:42.340 --> 05:44.080]  They stop supporting parts.
[05:44.200 --> 05:45.700]  I've seen this with televisions now.
[05:45.860 --> 05:48.020]  I've seen, like, we see it over and over and over again.
[05:48.160 --> 05:58.720]  So with phones, it's like, yeah, you're going to give me this special kind of push email or whatever BlackBerry was known for, but what happens when you go away and it just doesn't work?
[05:59.160 --> 06:07.100]  You know, I'm left to figure out all this proprietary stuff or I have to get an enterprise license for something for it to work at all.
[06:07.240 --> 06:12.480]  Like, it's just structured in a really hostile way for the average person to carry on with it.
[06:12.540 --> 06:25.460]  So why would anybody who has had this particular OS, why would they want to, like, throw good money after bad, when even this new version of whatever handset that it might be licensed, it's not even certain.
[06:25.640 --> 06:28.960]  Like, they were supposed to have something by now and it's, there's no word.
[06:29.080 --> 06:30.080]  There's nothing about it.
[06:30.140 --> 06:32.040]  It's just, it just feels like vaporware.
[06:32.080 --> 06:33.340]  It's definitely going away.
[06:33.420 --> 06:40.060]  This kind of mentality just makes me not want to buy new things because they're just going to have obsolescence built into them.
[06:40.460 --> 06:43.740]  And I'll be expected to do the same thing in a couple of years.
[06:44.200 --> 06:48.260]  And no, I'm too cynical to believe that's a good idea.
[06:48.520 --> 06:51.920]  If I want to use something, I want it to last a while.
[06:52.060 --> 07:01.500]  And if I'm going to get something else, I don't want to feel like the thing I'm leaving behind is completely worthless or has slowed down to the point where it's painful to use.
[07:01.980 --> 07:03.340]  You know, there should be an option.
[07:03.480 --> 07:14.240]  There should always be an option for people who are happy with what they have now, whether it's software, hardware, or a particular type of technology, like copper lines, for instance, you know, pots lines.
[07:14.920 --> 07:15.400]  Yeah.
[07:15.500 --> 07:18.060]  And you shouldn't just break people off like that.
[07:18.220 --> 07:20.920]  Just leave them with no follow-up, no nothing.
[07:21.120 --> 07:23.380]  Like what happens to your accounts on these various things?
[07:23.520 --> 07:26.100]  And we've talked about that with online web services.
[07:26.240 --> 07:31.120]  And that's essentially what all of the backend or whatever other features you would get is.
[07:31.220 --> 07:32.720]  It's just an account somewhere.
[07:32.900 --> 07:34.680]  And that all just sort of disappears.
[07:34.680 --> 07:43.100]  And you're left with no options, but to consume more.
[07:43.320 --> 07:44.900]  Are we turning into the cranky old people?
[07:45.060 --> 07:51.460]  I'd just be moaning the way things used to be, whether it's GeoCities or the Hotel Pennsylvania.
[07:52.000 --> 07:52.900]  I don't know.
[07:53.040 --> 07:54.660]  I never liked GeoCities in the first place.
[07:54.660 --> 08:03.540]  But the point is, sometimes there are things in the past that work that shouldn't just be abandoned, but new things can also be used.
[08:03.540 --> 08:06.300]  And we can kind of bounce off each other.
[08:06.380 --> 08:09.380]  And I think it's good to have, you know, a mixture.
[08:09.640 --> 08:12.120]  I think how it's done is the real critique.
[08:12.120 --> 08:19.860]  And just, I think I'm marking time in, I know, our words in what we record and discuss here.
[08:19.860 --> 08:26.520]  And with all the stories, with everything that we cover and things that are going on, I do want to just bring it up.
[08:26.520 --> 08:33.180]  Because it is a part of the evolution of communications technology.
[08:33.580 --> 08:45.420]  And looking back, I'll be glad that, you know, we took an opportunity to just look at how it went for some people.
[08:45.420 --> 08:47.740]  I guess that's, I'm bearing witness.
[08:48.040 --> 08:52.760]  And just, you know, got insight and heard what other people, what their take is on it.
[08:53.860 --> 08:56.720]  I'm both optimistic and terribly cynical.
[08:56.720 --> 08:59.880]  So I was curious.
[08:59.880 --> 09:01.080]  I got a lot out of it.
[09:01.200 --> 09:07.660]  But it's on to the next for anyone who was even passively involved in that.
[09:08.140 --> 09:08.940]  And analog TV.
[09:09.400 --> 09:10.940]  You know, I miss that too.
[09:12.120 --> 09:13.220]  There's just so many things.
[09:13.300 --> 09:14.500]  I'm sorry, Rob, you had your hand up.
[09:15.900 --> 09:24.260]  Yeah, first, I want to take a brief sidestep and just say thank you to Pete on Twitter, who informs us that our YouTube levels are much better than they've been.
[09:24.500 --> 09:24.960]  Oh, good.
[09:25.060 --> 09:25.420]  So thanks, Pete.
[09:26.240 --> 09:26.640]  Wow.
[09:27.000 --> 09:28.580]  And, which is good to hear.
[09:28.740 --> 09:40.920]  But also, this is all part of, I think, something very sad about the way just the commercial space has developed, where it used to be, you make a product, and if people want it, they buy it.
[09:41.040 --> 09:43.480]  And the market dictates what people are getting.
[09:43.480 --> 09:45.380]  If people want a new thing, they'll get the new thing.
[09:45.540 --> 09:48.060]  And if they don't want the old thing anymore, they'll stop making the old thing.
[09:48.260 --> 09:55.200]  But we've gotten to a point where companies are routinely so powerful that they say, no, this is what you're getting from us now.
[09:55.400 --> 09:59.880]  The thing you want from us, too bad, because you're buying this newer, flashier thing.
[09:59.880 --> 10:02.920]  And, you know, it seems a little backwards.
[10:03.160 --> 10:12.120]  I was recently watching, on YouTube, I was watching strings of old TV commercials, when there were multiple phone companies who were all competing with each other for our business.
[10:12.120 --> 10:15.000]  And so they would bicker in public.
[10:15.200 --> 10:18.860]  They would take potshots at each other, and they would talk about how great their service was.
[10:18.860 --> 10:25.180]  You want our service because the sound is very clear, or it's very convenient, or it's very affordable, or something.
[10:25.460 --> 10:28.500]  And, you know, they would have these reasons to go with them.
[10:28.600 --> 10:38.600]  And when there's a big company that just has a bunch of customers under their control, and they're telling them what they're buying from them, yeah, it makes me sad.
[10:40.940 --> 10:52.460]  Yeah, and they're, like, maneuvering to survive in making profit versus continuation of their craft and their core business.
[10:52.460 --> 11:03.220]  And we've seen the creep, like, the scope change for many of these firms in the space and in other tech realms.
[11:03.220 --> 11:04.700]  But it's typical.
[11:04.700 --> 11:06.940]  It's typical that it gets out of hand.
[11:06.940 --> 11:22.520]  And then the continuation of a product to retain those customers ends up, you know, you can't connect the dots because there isn't a deal or there's no way to build the hardware because no one can get computer chips in time or whatever.
[11:22.740 --> 11:25.520]  So you end up, it kind of falls apart.
[11:25.680 --> 11:30.080]  And there's many of these things that, I don't know, I just, I think heeding the warning.
[11:30.760 --> 11:35.140]  There's, sometimes these things go away, and it's sobering.
[11:35.140 --> 11:36.400]  It is.
[11:36.600 --> 11:37.380]  It certainly is.
[11:39.020 --> 11:47.960]  Something else that people are warning us about is something called Manifest V3 that Google Chrome is introducing.
[11:48.280 --> 11:54.680]  EFF put out a statement about this saying that, Chrome users, beware, Manifest V3 is deceitful and threatening.
[11:55.280 --> 11:56.620]  Yeah, them's fighting words.
[11:57.300 --> 12:10.680]  Manifest V3, Google Chrome's soon-to-be-definitive basket of changes to the world of web browser extensions has been framed by its authors as a step in the direction of privacy, security, and performance.
[12:10.680 --> 12:14.240]  But we think these changes are a raw deal for users.
[12:14.420 --> 12:34.240]  We've said that since Manifest V3 was announced, and continue to say so as this implementation is now imminent, like Flock and Privacy Sandbox before it, Manifest V3 is another example of the inherent conflict of interest that comes from Google controlling both the dominant web browser and one of the biggest internet advertising networks.
[12:34.600 --> 12:40.300]  Basically, Manifest V3, or MV3 for short, is outright harmful to privacy efforts.
[12:40.300 --> 12:51.560]  It will restrict the capabilities of web extensions, especially those that are designed to monitor, modify, and compute alongside the conversation your browser has with the websites you visit.
[12:51.720 --> 13:01.140]  Under the new specifications, extensions like these, like some privacy-protective tracker blockers, will have greatly reduced capabilities.
[13:01.440 --> 13:10.520]  Google's efforts to limit that access is concerning, especially considering that Google has trackers installed on 75% of the top 1 million websites.
[13:10.820 --> 13:14.180]  It's also doubtful MV3 will do much for security.
[13:14.500 --> 13:23.900]  Firefox maintains the largest extension market that's not based on Chrome, and the company has said it will adopt MV3 in the interest of cross-browser compatibility.
[13:24.260 --> 13:40.300]  Yet, at the 2020 Adblocker Dev Summit, Firefox's add-on operations manager said about the extension security review process, for malicious add-ons, we feel that for Firefox, it has been at a manageable level, since the add-ons are mostly interested in grabbing bad data.
[13:40.780 --> 13:45.020]  They can still do that with the current web request API that is not blocking.
[13:45.160 --> 13:56.020]  In plain English, this means that when a malicious extension sneaks through the security review process, it's usually interested in simply observing the conversation between your browser and whatever websites you visit.
[13:56.220 --> 14:00.220]  The malicious activity happens elsewhere after the data has already been read.
[14:00.220 --> 14:05.120]  A more thorough review process could improve security, but Chrome hasn't said they'll do that.
[14:05.300 --> 14:09.660]  Instead, their solution is to restrict capabilities for all extensions.
[14:11.210 --> 14:28.500]  Yeah, this worries me because, you know, Google has this habit of just implementing its own default settings or standards and expecting everybody else to simply follow along, oftentimes at great inconvenience to them.
[14:28.500 --> 14:33.940]  And there is definitely a conflict of interest here, as they are one of the leading advertising companies out there.
[14:34.660 --> 14:37.620]  I was wondering if people have any thoughts on that.
[14:38.960 --> 14:45.800]  Especially because it's software and because it might inhibit some of their kind of side hustle.
[14:45.980 --> 14:48.420]  I think that that is absolutely conflicting.
[14:48.420 --> 15:05.820]  And going back, I think, to what I was saying, proprietary and, like, OSs that are designed that are not modifiable, necessarily, that a lot of the wireless carriers supply people with, often have things on them that you can't remove.
[15:05.960 --> 15:07.900]  You can't take away or add an extension.
[15:07.900 --> 15:10.560]  You can't install software that they don't approve of.
[15:10.560 --> 15:17.420]  It's the same thing in a browser, where they make it so that you can create customized things.
[15:17.640 --> 15:28.940]  And, you know, so you're essentially, you're only able to use it the way they want you to use it throughout the life of you, throughout the life cycle of the package.
[15:29.100 --> 15:31.000]  But then it might just be gone.
[15:31.000 --> 15:34.140]  And so you were never able to use it or modify it the way you want.
[15:34.380 --> 15:38.400]  So you're kind of stuck with it the way they see fit, and that's it.
[15:38.420 --> 15:40.500]  Unless you either get it their way or not.
[15:40.660 --> 15:47.180]  And I just find that that's what I think really infuriates people, especially with something like a browser extension, where you can customize.
[15:47.400 --> 15:52.520]  You can make really innovative, cool things that help a lot of other users on the web.
[15:53.380 --> 16:00.840]  I'd like to read a quote from a couple of people who are experts in the field, from Helen Nissenbaum and Daniel Howe.
[16:00.840 --> 16:04.540]  They're the creators of Ad Nauseam, a great name, and TrackMeNot.
[16:04.940 --> 16:19.260]  They say Manifest V3 positions Chrome as the all-powerful arbiter of what software lives and what dies, shattering the ideal of a diverse array of extensions serving the legitimate preferences and values of equally diverse users.
[16:19.500 --> 16:33.900]  In 2017, when Google banned Ad Nauseam from the Chrome store, it summarily cut off tens of thousands of users from data they had accumulated and deprived them of a free and open-source extension to counter online profiling and manipulation.
[16:34.220 --> 16:45.680]  In hindsight, Ad Nauseam was the canary in the coal mine, as MV3 is now poised to cut off users from a range of invaluable privacy tools, including ad blockers, that thousands, if not millions, rely on.
[16:45.800 --> 16:55.620]  A browser that plays favorites to advance its owner's interest effectively chokes out innovative, independent developers, while shrinking the options for individuals to shape their online experiences.
[16:56.540 --> 16:57.600]  This is scary.
[16:57.840 --> 17:00.320]  This is something that is definitely a step backwards.
[17:01.080 --> 17:02.560]  Guys in Skype land, what do you think?
[17:03.640 --> 17:05.020]  This is very worrying.
[17:05.260 --> 17:08.660]  I mean, Google, at the heart of it, Google is an advertising company.
[17:08.780 --> 17:10.860]  They make money from showing you ads.
[17:11.000 --> 17:19.260]  They make money from collecting info on you so they can show you ads with more precision and sell your info to other people who show you ads and want to sell you things.
[17:19.260 --> 17:38.840]  And so, of course, one of the early casualties of this was an ad blocking plugin, because I am sure it has just really annoyed them this whole time that the most popular add-ons for their browsers are the ones that let you block the ads, let you decide what the web gets to show you,
[17:39.140 --> 17:46.180]  let you take control of your web browsing experience rather than handing it over to this advertising company who makes their money selling you crap.
[17:46.180 --> 17:54.340]  And that has always been a danger when putting commercial interests like these in charge of the web browsing experience of most people.
[17:54.520 --> 18:03.060]  And it blows my mind that Mozilla is looking to follow suit with Firefox, them being ostensibly an open-source software company.
[18:04.500 --> 18:09.040]  It's a real blow to the entire landscape of the web as we know it.
[18:09.040 --> 18:14.180]  And I'm not being, you know, I don't think I'm being a fear-mongering when saying this.
[18:14.320 --> 18:15.580]  It's that is what it is.
[18:15.720 --> 18:17.160]  And nobody's talking about it like that.
[18:17.320 --> 18:20.440]  Does anyone in this see the security implications?
[18:20.560 --> 18:26.140]  Because so many of these tools are used to prevent malicious ads.
[18:26.620 --> 18:39.300]  I mean, ad networks have been really hostile and have been hijacked by people that want a way to distribute surreptitious or other kinds of packages of software.
[18:39.960 --> 18:43.080]  And ad networks, turns out, are a really great way to do that.
[18:43.080 --> 19:00.980]  So by crippling the ability of users to protect themselves from this particular method of distributing content that could have malicious stuff encapsulated or encoded in it, is really egregious.
[19:01.160 --> 19:05.560]  It's setting people up for a lot of problems in the next couple of years or months.
[19:05.740 --> 19:06.480]  Well, you know, interesting.
[19:06.620 --> 19:09.920]  On that point, there's another story that I saw this week from the U.S.
[19:10.020 --> 19:10.240]  Sun.
[19:10.520 --> 19:11.580]  What is the U.S.
[19:11.680 --> 19:11.940]  Sun?
[19:12.020 --> 19:13.080]  Does anybody know what that is?
[19:14.240 --> 19:17.420]  It's either a web page or it's a newspaper or it's something else.
[19:17.520 --> 19:21.440]  That sounds like one of those newfangled, like, vapor...
[19:22.900 --> 19:25.520]  Well, it looks kind of like the U.K.
[19:25.640 --> 19:25.880]  Sun.
[19:26.020 --> 19:27.200]  You know, the Sun in London.
[19:27.340 --> 19:28.340]  Nah, but that's the thing.
[19:28.340 --> 19:30.360]  It has the same font, but it just says the U.S.
[19:30.460 --> 19:31.040]  Sun over it.
[19:31.400 --> 19:31.780]  Okay, whatever.
[19:32.420 --> 19:33.960]  Maybe they're a bona fide publication.
[19:34.080 --> 19:40.840]  But they say Google has taken action against a major hacking operation that it thinks has infected more than one million devices.
[19:40.840 --> 19:48.200]  The tech giant is coming down hard on the so-called Gluptaba botnet, suing two Russians who are allegedly behind it.
[19:48.460 --> 19:53.140]  It's a notorious piece of malware known for taking control of people's Windows PC.
[19:53.140 --> 19:54.300]  But here's the interesting part.
[19:54.300 --> 19:55.760]  I mean, that's interesting, too.
[19:55.920 --> 20:09.940]  But Google said it has disrupted the operation by terminating about 63 million Google Docs detected to be sharing Gluptaba, more than 1,100 Google accounts, and even 870 Google ads.
[20:10.440 --> 20:15.720]  Yeah, so Google ads could be used to spread malware as well.
[20:16.940 --> 20:18.460]  It's a very real danger.
[20:19.160 --> 20:24.260]  But we should have the ability to determine what we want to see and what we don't want to see.
[20:24.320 --> 20:32.440]  If we don't want to see ads, then we should have that ability and not have it taken away from us or defeated by these massive companies.
[20:32.580 --> 20:33.720]  Alex, do you have any thoughts on this?
[20:35.820 --> 20:36.180]  Yes.
[20:36.900 --> 20:38.820]  I'm kind of tired of giving my thoughts.
[20:38.960 --> 20:54.800]  My thoughts are that we should get the thoughts of the listeners and give out the telephone number, 802-321-4225, I believe is the correct number, 802-321-HACK.
[20:55.180 --> 21:00.800]  Well, that's a really controversial stance you've taken, so we'll see if anybody disagrees with that.
[21:01.020 --> 21:01.740]  You want to test that?
[21:02.080 --> 21:02.620]  Test what?
[21:02.760 --> 21:03.260]  The phone?
[21:03.480 --> 21:04.220]  Is it there?
[21:04.900 --> 21:05.620]  No, it's not.
[21:05.700 --> 21:06.060]  Where is it?
[21:06.740 --> 21:08.240]  Did you lose the phone somehow?
[21:09.860 --> 21:10.560]  There it is.
[21:10.560 --> 21:11.720]  Okay, we found the phone.
[21:11.880 --> 21:12.420]  Okay, I found it.
[21:12.900 --> 21:14.080]  How did we lose the phone?
[21:14.080 --> 21:15.480]  I just want to make sure it was there.
[21:15.860 --> 21:16.800]  Sometimes it goes away.
[21:16.940 --> 21:18.580]  This is the thing I've been saying all night.
[21:18.700 --> 21:30.440]  Can I just say, we prefer to get calls from people who haven't called before only because we want to, you know, open it up and a lot of people complain that they can't get through and they hear the same three people and we don't want that.
[21:31.460 --> 21:33.980]  We want the three people, but we also want more people.
[21:34.240 --> 21:38.080]  So if you haven't called before, this is us asking you to give us a call now.
[21:38.080 --> 21:41.140]  8-0-2-3-2-1-4-2-2-5.
[21:41.400 --> 21:43.480]  8-0-2-3-2-1-HACK.
[21:43.600 --> 21:44.960]  I don't know if you can hear the phone ringing, Kyle.
[21:45.020 --> 21:45.140]  Okay.
[21:45.900 --> 21:48.520]  And let's see who's out there.
[21:48.660 --> 21:49.000]  Good evening.
[21:49.000 --> 21:50.420]  You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
[21:51.680 --> 21:52.440]  Hey, guys.
[21:52.440 --> 21:57.940]  I got a nine-year-old that is curious about hacking and would like to ask you some questions.
[21:58.280 --> 21:59.140]  Go right ahead.
[22:00.580 --> 22:01.080]  All right.
[22:01.080 --> 22:01.840]  I'm putting him on.
[22:03.340 --> 22:03.760]  Hi.
[22:04.040 --> 22:04.300]  Hello.
[22:05.100 --> 22:05.520]  Hi.
[22:05.520 --> 22:06.200]  Hey, who's this?
[22:07.160 --> 22:13.500]  I'm just wondering what is a hacker and how can you tell if it's good or bad?
[22:15.660 --> 22:17.080]  That's a great question.
[22:17.440 --> 22:18.640]  Alex, you have a kid.
[22:19.020 --> 22:19.860]  Why don't you answer this?
[22:21.300 --> 22:21.900]  Sure.
[22:22.180 --> 22:22.780]  Absolutely.
[22:23.220 --> 22:30.080]  I mean, I like to think of there being a very big difference between a hacker and somebody who's a criminal.
[22:30.400 --> 22:31.640]  A hacker...
[22:31.640 --> 22:33.180]  And it's funny you ask this question.
[22:33.180 --> 22:52.840]  My son, who's eight years old, and I were just talking about this, a hacker is somebody who likes to think differently, who's not afraid to ask questions, who's not afraid to take things apart and figure out how they work, even if he can't get it always back together in exactly the same way again.
[22:53.140 --> 23:04.980]  And a hacker is somebody who's willing to maybe cross some lines and break some boundaries all in the interest of acquiring knowledge.
[23:05.460 --> 23:09.560]  And then once you learn something, when you're a hacker, you don't keep it to yourself.
[23:10.040 --> 23:14.100]  Hackers like us, like we're doing right now, we love to talk.
[23:14.440 --> 23:21.220]  So we're going to talk about what we find, we're going to talk about the information that we learn, and we're going to share that information.
[23:21.220 --> 23:25.060]  Remember when you were younger and you learned that sharing is caring?
[23:25.500 --> 23:32.180]  Well, the hackers really, really do believe that sharing is caring, and we share all of the information that we learn.
[23:32.280 --> 23:33.800]  We never keep it to ourselves.
[23:34.040 --> 23:35.620]  We're big, big sharers.
[23:35.820 --> 23:39.020]  And on the other hand, sometimes hackers are...
[23:39.020 --> 23:42.520]  people use the term hacker in a bad way, right?
[23:42.520 --> 23:53.460]  When they're referring to somebody who broke the law or broke a system or took down a service on the internet or something like that.
[23:53.480 --> 23:56.240]  We're hearing a lot about that right now on the news.
[23:56.520 --> 23:58.160]  But those people aren't hackers.
[23:58.440 --> 24:00.860]  Those people, they're not sharing information.
[24:00.860 --> 24:04.260]  They're not caring about each other and trying to learn.
[24:04.700 --> 24:07.000]  Those people, we already have a word for them.
[24:07.100 --> 24:10.280]  Those people are called criminals when they cross the line.
[24:10.500 --> 24:16.860]  And when they steal something or when they break into a system because they want to steal information, those people aren't hackers.
[24:17.040 --> 24:17.940]  Those people are criminals.
[24:18.100 --> 24:24.980]  Hackers are people and it comes from a term of an original hacker and Emmanuel, So correct me if I'm wrong.
[24:25.220 --> 24:36.140]  An original hacker was somebody who was a very artful or really thoughtful programmer who came up with a fix to a software bug that was really cool.
[24:36.520 --> 24:37.960]  And it was called a hack.
[24:38.120 --> 24:42.640]  And so somebody who was a really good programmer or a really good thinker was called a hacker.
[24:43.000 --> 24:46.020]  And that's still to this day what a hacker is.
[24:46.140 --> 24:49.180]  So I hope that explains it somewhat to you.
[24:49.400 --> 24:51.340]  Do you have any other questions for us?
[24:52.380 --> 24:53.460]  Uh, no.
[24:53.760 --> 24:54.720]  But thank you.
[24:55.340 --> 24:56.140]  Thank you.
[24:56.740 --> 24:57.480]  Thank you.
[24:57.560 --> 24:58.980]  That's really awesome for you to call.
[24:59.200 --> 25:02.600]  You're very welcome to call back anytime you have any other questions.
[25:03.900 --> 25:04.420]  Okay.
[25:04.760 --> 25:06.020]  That was a really good question.
[25:06.140 --> 25:06.900]  Yeah, great question.
[25:07.200 --> 25:08.940]  There's lots of ways to tell, though.
[25:09.060 --> 25:12.960]  It's just like finding out about good and bad people.
[25:13.200 --> 25:15.120]  You know, you have to get to know people.
[25:15.300 --> 25:17.720]  You have to understand people.
[25:17.860 --> 25:19.700]  But you can't necessarily trust everyone.
[25:19.700 --> 25:24.180]  You have to... that's part of asking questions and learning about other people yourself.
[25:24.580 --> 25:34.000]  So if they say they're that type of person on the internet, one way or the other, it's good to make sure you know that you can trust them before you do.
[25:34.180 --> 25:39.260]  And when we say we share information, let's be clear that we don't overshare.
[25:39.260 --> 25:42.840]  And part of that involves our own private information.
[25:43.140 --> 25:45.320]  We learn how to keep that private.
[25:45.480 --> 26:00.540]  Whereas what's going on in the world basically encourages you to share every bit of information about yourself and your private life so that there's nothing, whether it's the music you're listening to or the places that you go or the people who are your friends,
[26:00.700 --> 26:01.700]  it's all out there.
[26:01.780 --> 26:02.380]  It's all public.
[26:02.380 --> 26:03.800]  You don't have a thought to yourself.
[26:04.280 --> 26:10.900]  And I think hackers are very keen to preventing that from taking over their lives.
[26:11.160 --> 26:17.900]  And that's why, you know, a lot of people who are hackers, and I've also found a lot of people who are younger, avoid social networks.
[26:17.900 --> 26:19.160]  They avoid Facebook.
[26:19.480 --> 26:25.520]  They don't want their every interaction to be logged and kept track of and fed ads.
[26:25.520 --> 26:32.540]  Because, you know, they want to live lives like kids and adults have done for many, many centuries.
[26:33.100 --> 26:38.420]  So there's good in technology, but there's also some bad that we have to be careful of.
[26:39.840 --> 26:47.180]  Yeah, and a very big part of being a hacker is hackers are very interested in learning about the world around them, about how things work.
[26:47.320 --> 26:53.420]  And once they know how, once they've learned something, they're very interested in helping other people to learn that same thing.
[26:53.420 --> 26:56.260]  So that's what we've all been saying about sharing information.
[26:56.840 --> 27:03.320]  So if you know how to do something and somebody else near you is struggling with it, you can help them.
[27:03.320 --> 27:07.160]  Because that's the hacker way of doing things is we help each other.
[27:07.660 --> 27:08.820]  We help each other learn.
[27:08.940 --> 27:09.780]  We help each other grow.
[27:10.120 --> 27:15.020]  And everyone at the end is doing better, is better off for it.
[27:15.340 --> 27:18.580]  Our nine-year-old has hung up and now somebody else is calling you.
[27:18.660 --> 27:19.620]  That was a new call.
[27:19.720 --> 27:21.300]  You see how cool new calls can be?
[27:21.800 --> 27:25.400]  So yes, if you're out there, if you're out there, please call us and you haven't called before.
[27:25.620 --> 27:26.860]  We definitely would like to hear from you.
[27:26.920 --> 27:27.820]  We have somebody else on the phone.
[27:28.160 --> 27:28.740]  Good evening.
[27:28.920 --> 27:30.020]  You are on Off the Hook Overtime.
[27:31.200 --> 27:35.500]  Yes, I wish Off the Hook and Off the Hook Overtime was around when I was 10 years old.
[27:35.540 --> 27:38.340]  Yeah, Rebel, you know, you are one of the regular callers, Rebel.
[27:38.420 --> 27:40.180]  So we'll give you a minute, all right?
[27:40.260 --> 27:43.980]  But that's in direct contradiction to my advisement.
[27:43.980 --> 27:44.780]  But go ahead.
[27:45.720 --> 27:50.600]  You know, I was doing the same thing when I was there, you know, playing with the phone.
[27:50.940 --> 27:51.680]  You still do it.
[27:53.540 --> 27:54.480]  We all know that.
[27:54.540 --> 27:55.680]  You're probably doing it right now.
[27:56.880 --> 27:57.240]  Yeah.
[27:57.520 --> 27:59.700]  And, you know, but there's nothing to play with anymore.
[27:59.900 --> 28:00.500]  Oh, please.
[28:00.780 --> 28:01.660]  There's plenty to play with.
[28:02.360 --> 28:03.740]  We play with things all the time.
[28:04.680 --> 28:07.440]  Well, I used to, like, play with computer terminals in college.
[28:07.440 --> 28:11.240]  And even before then, I used to play with, you know, phone systems and things like that.
[28:11.340 --> 28:13.200]  It was like, I was, you know, a hacker.
[28:13.600 --> 28:15.600]  Yeah, it's a shame that there's no computers or phones anymore.
[28:17.200 --> 28:18.700]  Well, but those kinds...
[28:18.700 --> 28:20.300]  Those kinds, yeah, but it changes.
[28:20.300 --> 28:21.340]  It always changes.
[28:21.480 --> 28:26.240]  I mean, people were saying this in the 1980s, that it's not the same as it was in the 1960s.
[28:26.300 --> 28:28.420]  And they were saying it wasn't the same as it was in the 40s.
[28:28.560 --> 28:30.280]  But there's always something new to hack.
[28:30.420 --> 28:31.620]  There's always something new to play with.
[28:31.760 --> 28:33.400]  We just have to open up our minds to it.
[28:34.520 --> 28:35.040]  That's true.
[28:35.040 --> 28:37.540]  So it's like, you know, like, there's no more computer terminals.
[28:37.780 --> 28:40.500]  I mean, there's kind of is, but there's these, like, cloud services.
[28:40.780 --> 28:41.820]  And it's not the same.
[28:41.960 --> 28:42.940]  There's no more mainframes.
[28:43.100 --> 28:43.920]  Everything's on, like...
[28:43.920 --> 28:44.780]  Check the dumpsters.
[28:45.100 --> 28:46.300]  They might show up there.
[28:46.420 --> 28:47.080]  But, yeah, you're right.
[28:47.160 --> 28:48.100]  Things do change.
[28:48.240 --> 28:51.400]  But they also, they improve in some ways.
[28:51.820 --> 28:56.700]  But the knowledge that you have from the old technology, you can apply that to all kinds of new things.
[28:56.760 --> 29:01.380]  You can also teach people the theory and how technology used to work.
[29:02.600 --> 29:03.000]  Right.
[29:03.540 --> 29:04.080]  That's true.
[29:04.080 --> 29:05.620]  Well, that's what HOPE conferences are for.
[29:05.800 --> 29:06.640]  That's one of the reasons.
[29:06.820 --> 29:06.940]  Yeah.
[29:07.020 --> 29:07.700]  One of the things we do.
[29:08.500 --> 29:10.660]  Rebel, I'm going to give you one more statement to make.
[29:10.700 --> 29:12.140]  Then we're going to open up to a new caller.
[29:13.760 --> 29:14.300]  I don't know.
[29:14.420 --> 29:23.740]  I guess, you know, like when I hear in the news that the hackers are creating this, like, Trojan horse or whatever.
[29:23.740 --> 29:35.740]  You know, that's, you know, that's, you know, not really, I mean, they call them hackers, people who create these things to take over your computer and demand money from you to fix it and things like that.
[29:35.740 --> 29:42.960]  Well, the creation, the creation definitely can be a hack because it involves being clever and defeating security.
[29:43.100 --> 29:47.880]  It's the actual, it's using it and threatening people and trying to make money off of it.
[29:48.060 --> 29:52.420]  That's where you depart from the hacker world and you merge into the criminal world.
[29:53.580 --> 29:54.420]  Right, that's true.
[29:55.320 --> 29:55.760]  All right.
[29:56.800 --> 29:57.120]  Okay.
[29:57.340 --> 29:58.140]  Good hearing your voice.
[29:58.300 --> 29:59.860]  And I'll talk to you again in future weeks.
[29:59.880 --> 30:00.920]  Oh, by the way, make it louder.
[30:01.120 --> 30:01.840]  Make it louder.
[30:02.200 --> 30:03.720]  We were just told it's okay.
[30:04.800 --> 30:05.680]  It's better, right?
[30:05.920 --> 30:06.740]  We'll work on it.
[30:06.780 --> 30:07.380]  We'll work on it.
[30:07.840 --> 30:08.920]  How about we just shout?
[30:08.920 --> 30:09.640]  We can do that.
[30:10.060 --> 30:11.520]  Why don't we, I mean, you're a hacker.
[30:11.680 --> 30:13.580]  You can hack the system to try and make it.
[30:13.660 --> 30:14.480]  That's what hacking is.
[30:14.720 --> 30:15.920]  Us being here is a hack.
[30:15.940 --> 30:16.300]  Good thing about it.
[30:16.480 --> 30:16.800]  Uh-huh.
[30:17.220 --> 30:17.520]  All right.
[30:23.240 --> 30:25.240]  8-0-2-3-2-1-4-2-2-5.
[30:25.440 --> 30:33.840]  Again, please, if you're a new caller, we want to hear from you first because we want to hear from our people who we have not heard from before or haven't heard from in a very long time.
[30:33.920 --> 30:34.380]  How about that?
[30:34.660 --> 30:36.620]  8-0-2-3-2-1-4-2-2-5.
[30:36.740 --> 30:37.440]  Alex, did you have something?
[30:38.340 --> 30:40.320]  Yeah, I tend to agree with Rebel, though.
[30:40.420 --> 30:47.840]  I mean, I get nostalgic about the olden days when we could red box, when there were pay phones, when we could do things anonymously.
[30:48.140 --> 30:50.120]  I mean, it's definitely a lot tougher now.
[30:50.320 --> 30:52.280]  I can respect this stuff.
[30:52.280 --> 30:52.720]  Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[30:52.740 --> 30:53.060]  Hold on.
[30:53.060 --> 30:53.780]  Hold on a second.
[30:54.080 --> 30:55.400]  It's a lot tougher now.
[30:55.540 --> 30:57.060]  Sounds to me like it's a challenge.
[30:57.120 --> 30:59.660]  And that sounds to me like something worthy of a hacker.
[30:59.920 --> 31:05.840]  Yeah, it's hard to make a free phone call back in the 1980s, but we figured out ways to do it.
[31:05.960 --> 31:07.120]  Okay, now, guess what?
[31:07.180 --> 31:08.280]  We won that battle.
[31:08.360 --> 31:10.340]  And everybody can make free phone calls now.
[31:10.640 --> 31:13.080]  So now, anonymity, that's the challenge.
[31:13.380 --> 31:16.840]  And yes, we're meeting some formidable opponents on that front.
[31:17.240 --> 31:19.460]  But I think we can defeat them.
[31:19.660 --> 31:20.560]  What do you think, Alex?
[31:21.440 --> 31:28.960]  Yeah, I think anonymity, or as you say, anonymity, is definitely the challenge these days.
[31:29.080 --> 31:32.020]  And that's actually what I really had in mind when I made that statement.
[31:33.080 --> 31:35.900]  Because everywhere you go, you're on camera.
[31:36.200 --> 31:43.480]  It's just the physical presence of cameras and surveillance and ring cameras, everything everywhere.
[31:43.720 --> 31:46.080]  I got to say, and your kid knows where all the cameras are.
[31:46.220 --> 31:51.340]  We saw him a few days ago, and he's basically pointing them all out.
[31:51.440 --> 31:54.000]  I don't know how you have him programmed to do that.
[31:54.000 --> 31:55.960]  But he's telling you where the cameras are.
[31:56.120 --> 31:57.880]  So, I mean, kids are really aware of this.
[31:58.700 --> 31:59.660]  They really are.
[31:59.760 --> 32:00.380]  They're really aware.
[32:00.520 --> 32:03.400]  He's very good at spotting surveillance cameras everywhere.
[32:03.400 --> 32:06.220]  He was really interested in cameras and how they would work.
[32:06.320 --> 32:12.320]  And years ago, we would talk about PTZ cameras versus stationary cameras and things like that.
[32:12.380 --> 32:13.420]  He got pretty into it.
[32:13.460 --> 32:14.560]  He understands it.
[32:14.600 --> 32:16.120]  He's very good at spotting these things.
[32:16.200 --> 32:16.900]  Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
[32:16.980 --> 32:17.780]  Your kid is eight.
[32:24.000 --> 32:31.380]  We were going into PTZ, pan-tilt-zoom discussions of surveillance cameras when he was probably five, maybe.
[32:31.740 --> 32:32.180]  Yeah.
[32:32.380 --> 32:33.760]  I would say he was probably about five.
[32:34.580 --> 32:57.000]  But it does sadden me to think that as a result of this awareness of all of these cameras, he's also aware that he's always being watched and that there's somebody on the other side of these cameras, and that makes it really difficult to fool around, to do something as a prank,
[32:57.240 --> 33:09.400]  to, you know, do the hypothetical, you know, soap or laundry detergent in a fountain, you know, these days is deterred by the presence of overt and covert surveillance cameras everywhere.
[33:09.400 --> 33:17.980]  Well, can I just say, though, there's a good way to counter that, and that's to not be so afraid of being punished for doing these things.
[33:17.980 --> 33:24.340]  So, yeah, you know, pour the detergent in the fountain, see who comes after you and say, yeah, okay, I won't do that again, I'll do something else.
[33:24.960 --> 33:30.020]  I think if we live in fear of being punished all the time, I think that's the real crippling effect.
[33:30.200 --> 33:40.840]  But yeah, I hear you as far as cameras, because kids, you know, just like, you know, mass shooting drills, it becomes normal, becomes something that they think is the way it's always been, and it hasn't.
[33:40.840 --> 33:49.000]  And we've been witnessing this kind of thing for decades, where people just are told this is the way it always has been.
[33:49.000 --> 33:52.360]  And we know better, we know it wasn't that way, and it shouldn't be that way.
[33:52.460 --> 34:09.320]  Yeah, and it can become a kind of social conditioning where you go so far in another direction where there's like anxiety if there aren't cameras, if there isn't surveillance, and there isn't metal detectors, and everything is, you know, locked down and patrolled and monitored and checked and rechecked.
[34:09.460 --> 34:13.980]  Yeah, or you feel that if there's no camera, that means there's going to be crime, or that you can commit a crime.
[34:14.140 --> 34:16.440]  It's just, it's programming, it's all programming.
[34:16.680 --> 34:19.640]  And how we counter that is so key.
[34:20.040 --> 34:21.240]  Yes, Alex, let me have a call, I believe.
[34:22.300 --> 34:22.740]  Sure.
[34:22.920 --> 34:38.360]  Just a quick anecdote, an anecdote about this is, you know, a long time ago, when I was over at Oxford, I showed around Professor Theodore Mehran, who was the head judge of the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia.
[34:38.520 --> 34:40.940]  I mean, he had a massive undertaking of a job.
[34:41.040 --> 34:44.800]  And I had to walk him around from one part of the city to the other.
[34:44.980 --> 34:50.540]  And we got past the Radcliffe camera, and he was in, which is just iconic building in Oxford.
[34:50.600 --> 34:54.040]  It's a science library, actually, actually, but it's really very well known.
[34:54.300 --> 34:55.980]  And we're walking past it.
[34:56.180 --> 35:01.320]  And I showed Professor Mehran, the head of the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia.
[35:01.580 --> 35:11.720]  I showed him that those light fixtures that were around the square here and going around the street and around the camera were not actually light fixtures.
[35:11.900 --> 35:13.200]  Inside of them were not lights.
[35:13.340 --> 35:15.260]  They were covert surveillance cameras.
[35:15.800 --> 35:26.140]  And he was absolutely appalled by the presence of these covert surveillance cameras focused on students in Oxford going into a goddamn science library.
[35:26.220 --> 35:29.200]  And this is a guy from an Iron Curtain country being appalled by that.
[35:29.840 --> 35:35.840]  Well, he wasn't he wasn't from Yugoslavia, but he was head of the criminal tribunal for Yugoslavia.
[35:36.000 --> 35:36.800]  Oh, okay.
[35:36.840 --> 35:38.820]  He was prosecuting Yugoslavia and war criminals.
[35:39.300 --> 35:40.100]  That's actually correct.
[35:40.380 --> 35:40.380]  Okay.
[35:40.600 --> 35:40.780]  Yes.
[35:41.100 --> 35:41.280]  Yeah.
[35:41.600 --> 35:41.740]  Yeah.
[35:41.980 --> 35:44.900]  Well, I still think people from Iron Curtain countries were appalled by that.
[35:45.380 --> 35:47.320]  No, he was, you know, it just it.
[35:47.560 --> 35:49.440]  This is somebody who'd seen a lot.
[35:49.560 --> 35:50.920]  And it really it shocked his conscience.
[35:50.920 --> 35:53.640]  And I, I always appreciated that sentiment.
[35:53.860 --> 35:56.520]  And he had to be late 70s, early 80s at the time.
[35:56.680 --> 35:58.200]  So it's a different perspective.
[35:58.540 --> 36:01.620]  I think this is, it's an importance that spans generations.
[36:01.960 --> 36:03.400]  All right, let's, let's go to the phones.
[36:03.720 --> 36:04.180]  Good evening.
[36:04.320 --> 36:05.040]  You're on off the hook over time.
[36:06.840 --> 36:07.720]  Hello, everybody.
[36:07.920 --> 36:09.540]  Um, my name is Jim.
[36:09.700 --> 36:14.100]  I'm my old school hacker from back in the day and a school board member.
[36:14.320 --> 36:14.980]  Oh, wow.
[36:15.960 --> 36:17.060]  Life has been interesting.
[36:17.340 --> 36:18.060]  That's a full plate.
[36:19.280 --> 36:22.260]  Yeah, it's, it's always been a fun job.
[36:22.380 --> 36:22.920]  I've liked it.
[36:23.220 --> 36:25.660]  You know, it's a volunteer work, but it's been good.
[36:25.900 --> 36:28.660]  Did you have angry parents coming after you with making demands?
[36:29.740 --> 36:30.540]  Yeah, we do.
[36:30.880 --> 36:34.560]  Um, it's, you know, uh, and it's all sorts of things.
[36:34.640 --> 36:38.280]  So you've got parents making demands in opposition to other parents making demands.
[36:38.460 --> 36:38.680]  Right.
[36:38.960 --> 36:41.040]  And they all speak, they all speak for everybody.
[36:42.200 --> 36:42.600]  Yeah.
[36:42.600 --> 36:43.960]  You're representing the community.
[36:44.360 --> 36:44.560]  Uh-huh.
[36:44.600 --> 36:45.960]  Well, you know, we got elected.
[36:47.060 --> 36:49.160]  You know, we're representing the community.
[36:49.160 --> 36:50.500]  You're here representing yourself.
[36:51.120 --> 36:53.600]  Can I ask what part of the country or what country you're from?
[36:53.600 --> 36:55.620]  Oh, I'm, I'm in upstate New York.
[36:55.800 --> 36:56.200]  Um, okay.
[36:56.540 --> 37:00.120]  I, I, I don't want to give too much, uh, detail about me because yeah, I don't want to.
[37:00.280 --> 37:00.800]  That's smart.
[37:00.800 --> 37:04.540]  I don't want to get crap, but I, I have been on the show before, um, um, in person.
[37:04.760 --> 37:05.880]  It's been, it's been a long time.
[37:06.120 --> 37:07.000]  Well, welcome back.
[37:07.940 --> 37:08.640]  Well, thank you.
[37:09.320 --> 37:10.460]  So did you have a question?
[37:11.540 --> 37:24.440]  Um, I was just, uh, we were talking about, um, you know, the, uh, the outrage that seems to always be lacking when it comes to the gun violence, uh, that, that just came up a few minutes ago.
[37:25.200 --> 37:41.160]  And, uh, you know, it, it, it floors me that in all of the time that I've, I, you know, I've been on the school board for about 10 years and in all of the time I've been sitting there and not, never have I had an angry parent come in demanding that we keep their kids safe from gun violence.
[37:41.360 --> 37:47.740]  And, um, um, I, I am, I am getting people threatening us, uh, to keep them safe from a mask.
[37:47.940 --> 37:52.900]  So, yeah, you know, um, I, I, I, I thank you guys for your sentiments there.
[37:53.220 --> 37:54.520]  You're, you're, you're quite welcome.
[37:54.720 --> 37:56.280]  And we thank you for doing what you do.
[37:56.400 --> 37:57.480]  I don't think I could do that.
[37:58.040 --> 38:07.740]  Um, but it goes to show you what we're talking about, the normalization people just say, yeah, there's nothing you can do about gun violence, but I'm going to fight to keep a mask off my, my five-year-old.
[38:08.200 --> 38:09.040]  It's insane.
[38:09.080 --> 38:10.340]  And that's not normal.
[38:10.560 --> 38:12.420]  And we have to never stop saying that.
[38:13.920 --> 38:14.280]  Absolutely.
[38:14.620 --> 38:15.380]  Well, thank you very much.
[38:15.500 --> 38:15.920]  Thank you.
[38:16.440 --> 38:16.720]  Take care.
[38:17.580 --> 38:19.420]  See, we're getting great calls, right?
[38:19.740 --> 38:19.960]  Yeah.
[38:20.080 --> 38:21.100]  Love the, love the insight.
[38:21.240 --> 38:25.000]  That's something, uh, direction of the conversation wouldn't have gone without, uh, without taking that.
[38:25.100 --> 38:26.880]  So I'm so glad for that, uh, discussion.
[38:27.120 --> 38:32.920]  I'm not saying that the other callers, the callers that call, you know, weekly or biweekly are, are, are bad callers.
[38:33.140 --> 38:35.320]  It's just, it's a huge community.
[38:35.460 --> 38:38.680]  So a lot of people out there and I want to hear from more people.
[38:38.880 --> 38:41.540]  I want to hear more perspectives, you know, you don't have to agree with us.
[38:41.640 --> 38:43.420]  You can, uh, you know, say all kinds of things.
[38:43.460 --> 38:46.680]  And we're thanking our regular callers who are abstaining.
[38:46.900 --> 38:47.980]  We're thanking them for not calling.
[38:48.180 --> 38:48.400]  Yeah.
[38:48.920 --> 38:52.360]  Well, we know they're out there and look, they're kind of say, we'll do you one better.
[38:52.460 --> 38:57.680]  We'll stop listening to being well-behaved as they, uh, as they rip their radio out of the wall.
[38:57.680 --> 38:59.160]  They're yelling at the, throw it out the window.
[38:59.420 --> 38:59.500]  Of course.
[38:59.660 --> 39:00.060]  I don't know radio.
[39:00.180 --> 39:00.780]  It's a computer now.
[39:00.920 --> 39:01.060]  YouTube.
[39:01.220 --> 39:01.340]  Yeah.
[39:01.480 --> 39:02.420]  They're throwing their workstation.
[39:02.640 --> 39:03.500]  It could be an Alexa device.
[39:03.680 --> 39:04.120]  Okay, fine.
[39:04.200 --> 39:05.580]  They're, they're a talking robot.
[39:06.440 --> 39:06.800]  Yeah.
[39:06.980 --> 39:07.100]  Yeah.
[39:07.460 --> 39:07.620]  Okay.
[39:07.700 --> 39:14.700]  But our phone number for, for those people who have not called us before or haven't called us in a long time, 802-321-4225.
[39:15.360 --> 39:16.520]  And I hear the phone ringing.
[39:16.720 --> 39:18.820]  So we have, uh, another person out there.
[39:19.340 --> 39:22.660]  Um, and we, we'd like to hear, uh, what they have to say as well.
[39:22.800 --> 39:23.320]  Are they on Kyle?
[39:23.520 --> 39:23.580]  Okay.
[39:23.680 --> 39:24.020]  Good evening.
[39:24.180 --> 39:25.140]  You're on off the hook over time.
[39:26.620 --> 39:28.140]  Hi, I'll be less than a minute.
[39:28.280 --> 39:30.300]  You wanted me to call back with an update.
[39:30.300 --> 39:33.680]  No, well, actually, you know, it's interesting how you're framing that.
[39:33.940 --> 39:37.120]  You're basically, we're asking specifically that regular call is not calling this week.
[39:37.180 --> 39:42.540]  And you're telling us that we asked you to call, but yeah, we asked for an update on your, on your situation.
[39:42.540 --> 39:47.420]  So we will give you a minute to tell us an update on, on your, uh, I assume copper line situation.
[39:49.660 --> 39:50.100]  Yes.
[39:50.100 --> 39:53.840]  I've called every phone company I can.
[39:54.100 --> 39:56.180]  They, none of them use copper.
[39:56.180 --> 40:05.300]  However, Verizon has changed their date to January 1st is the deadline that I have to agree to switch or I get disconnected.
[40:06.340 --> 40:13.220]  I'm trying to call various elected officials, uh, see if that makes a difference.
[40:13.420 --> 40:17.840]  Did you, did you call the, did you follow our advice and call the public service commission?
[40:18.680 --> 40:19.700]  Yes, I did.
[40:19.900 --> 40:26.100]  And that's what got Verizon to call back and say, we'll extend the time to January.
[40:26.500 --> 40:26.620]  Okay.
[40:26.900 --> 40:27.280]  All right.
[40:27.460 --> 40:38.460]  Now I know it's... Public service commission sent me to a different, uh, uh, a different, um, agency.
[40:39.940 --> 40:40.340]  Agency.
[40:40.780 --> 40:40.820]  Yes.
[40:41.020 --> 40:42.520]  Do you know what, do you know what they're called?
[40:44.480 --> 40:46.920]  Oh, I had it written down somewhere.
[40:47.100 --> 40:47.340]  Okay.
[40:47.400 --> 40:48.140]  Well, here's the thing.
[40:48.140 --> 40:50.220]  You can, you can always call them again.
[40:50.440 --> 40:53.280]  Uh, it's, it's not like they're going to say, Oh, you called us already.
[40:53.640 --> 40:55.620]  You know, they'll, they'll take another complaint.
[40:55.840 --> 41:03.600]  The fact that Verizon changed the date because you call the public service commission indicates that yes, indeed, they do have power.
[41:03.700 --> 41:04.960]  You couldn't have done that by yourself.
[41:05.120 --> 41:07.580]  If you call them again, maybe they'll postpone it more.
[41:07.760 --> 41:10.520]  If more people call them, that's pressure.
[41:10.740 --> 41:13.640]  And, and Verizon feels the pressure from the public service commission.
[41:13.800 --> 41:15.240]  Now it's still, it's a long shot.
[41:15.420 --> 41:23.160]  It's, you know, it's very unlikely that you'll be able to change their policy and their direction, but it's definitely unlikely if you don't try.
[41:24.420 --> 41:30.500]  Well, I'm calling every elected official I can to bug them and hoping that that will have an effect.
[41:30.720 --> 41:31.520]  You're doing the right thing.
[41:33.020 --> 41:33.500]  Okay.
[41:33.780 --> 41:34.000]  All right.
[41:34.320 --> 41:34.600]  All right.
[41:34.680 --> 41:35.020]  Good luck.
[41:35.600 --> 41:37.780]  So crucial just to keep pushing.
[41:38.020 --> 41:51.900]  And, uh, I just, I laud the effort and it is that, um, the, the more they understand that that is, you know, uh, uh, an option, it should be an option should remain an option for people that are not interested in it.
[41:51.960 --> 42:06.580]  Cause otherwise it's, it's honestly, they're, they're taking the power they have and, and basically harvesting customers by yanking service away from them for something that those customers don't necessarily want in the first place.
[42:06.740 --> 42:06.860]  Right.
[42:07.040 --> 42:07.080]  Right.
[42:07.080 --> 42:09.700]  They're building in customers for a new service.
[42:09.820 --> 42:11.800]  That's going to have unknown costs.
[42:11.800 --> 42:13.460]  They're not being upfront about any of that.
[42:13.560 --> 42:23.640]  They're just breaking people away, leaving them stranded so that they need to come back and be a customer for some, for some other service that is, that is lesser or, or different.
[42:23.900 --> 42:26.020]  And, and, uh, and that's really unfortunate behavior.
[42:26.220 --> 42:30.200]  Let me, uh, just quickly outline, uh, why we feel this is an issue.
[42:30.580 --> 42:42.800]  Um, it's basically, um, when, when, when you lose power, whether because of a storm or, or some other reason, oftentimes, if you have a landline, you don't lose the landline.
[42:42.920 --> 42:43.980]  You have a landline.
[42:44.100 --> 42:49.980]  There's many storms that I've been through blizzards, hurricanes, where I haven't had power for a week.
[42:50.260 --> 42:55.120]  Sometimes several weeks, but the landline is almost always there.
[42:55.300 --> 42:57.560]  This is not true of a cable line.
[42:57.720 --> 42:59.980]  This is not true of a VoIP line.
[43:00.140 --> 43:03.420]  This is not true of a ISDN or fiber.
[43:03.640 --> 43:04.280]  Why?
[43:04.620 --> 43:08.780]  Because those require power on your end.
[43:09.220 --> 43:13.240]  Whereas a copper line has the power in the central office.
[43:13.360 --> 43:14.040]  What's the central office?
[43:14.200 --> 43:30.520]  It's this big brick building that every community has where the phone company basically used to be if, and they usually are still there, uh, just in a, in a reduced capacity because switches have gotten smaller and more people are using only cell phones and great,
[43:30.700 --> 43:32.800]  you know, that should make the job easier.
[43:32.940 --> 43:52.000]  If less people are using the network, what the phone companies want to do is just simply stop with the, um, the central office with, with the, um, uh, with the generators that keep power in the central office and hence has it sent to, um, uh, to every single phone line and allows you to,
[43:52.100 --> 43:52.980]  uh, to stay connected.
[43:53.120 --> 43:56.100]  What we're saying is don't cut those people off.
[43:56.220 --> 43:57.400]  Don't cut off the pay phones.
[43:57.540 --> 43:58.880]  Don't cut off the landlines.
[43:59.000 --> 44:01.180]  Those people who want to continue using them.
[44:01.720 --> 44:02.160]  Yeah.
[44:02.300 --> 44:11.460]  They'll have to pay a phone bill that no one else is paying, but when they do get a storm or some other kind of outage, they will be the ones that have landlines that work.
[44:11.580 --> 44:12.680]  Same thing with pay phones.
[44:13.040 --> 44:20.940]  It's so important to have that because the cell phone networks go down when you lose power in a community, they lose power too.
[44:21.540 --> 44:26.960]  And, you know, you can't charge your phone if you don't have power, even if the cell towers are still up.
[44:27.700 --> 44:32.460]  So there's all kinds of reasons why this is something that should be supported.
[44:33.200 --> 44:39.340]  And, uh, we just think it's very, very, um, uh, short-sighted to just say, okay, we have something new.
[44:39.500 --> 44:46.620]  It's kind of what we were saying before, only on a much bigger scale, uh, because we have something new, this means that something old can exist too.
[44:46.840 --> 44:48.400]  You can have both.
[44:48.800 --> 44:49.240]  Yeah.
[44:49.420 --> 44:53.460]  The, the, the attitude that it's a direct competition is just wrong.
[44:53.600 --> 44:55.320]  There are still customers for files.
[44:55.540 --> 45:06.840]  It's, and it's not, uh, that there aren't, aren't ways around fiber or, um, you know, the shortcomings of fiber or, uh, that people can't customize, uh, the, the utility of it in an outage.
[45:07.040 --> 45:10.580]  It's just that some people, not everyone is all in for that.
[45:10.740 --> 45:11.440]  They're not ready.
[45:11.560 --> 45:14.480]  They don't, they don't have the other elements that would make it work for them.
[45:14.780 --> 45:18.980]  And they're not there there, but it does not mean that others are not interested.
[45:20.080 --> 45:20.440]  Okay.
[45:20.500 --> 45:22.080]  So, uh, I think we have a phone call.
[45:22.180 --> 45:23.120]  I heard the phone ring a few times.
[45:23.600 --> 45:25.080]  Um, no, we have a dial tone.
[45:25.280 --> 45:25.800]  Uh, okay.
[45:26.040 --> 45:34.220]  You know, if you're war dialing us, it's not going to work because people, uh, people keep calling on and you'll go to voicemail, which we can't even get.
[45:35.080 --> 45:36.580]  802-321-4225.
[45:37.180 --> 45:37.960]  New callers.
[45:38.060 --> 45:39.100]  People haven't called us in a while.
[45:39.220 --> 45:39.760]  Let's hear from you.
[45:39.960 --> 45:41.940]  802-321-4225.
[45:42.920 --> 45:45.140]  4225 spells hack, by the way.
[45:45.440 --> 45:50.460]  Uh, you know, we were talking about, um, uh, hackers, um, defeating security.
[45:51.180 --> 45:52.700]  And, and this is kind of an interesting story.
[45:52.860 --> 45:56.360]  The Department of Homeland Security is launching this bug bounty program.
[45:56.580 --> 46:06.540]  Um, they'll pay between $500 and $5,000, depending on the gravity of the vulnerability and the impact of the remediation.
[46:06.800 --> 46:11.080]  Uh, it's a scalable amount of money, but we consider that to be quite significant.
[46:11.080 --> 46:19.160]  Uh, said Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas, uh, at the Bloomberg Technology Summit.
[46:19.660 --> 46:20.940]  Never heard of that before.
[46:21.360 --> 46:26.340]  Uh, we're really investing a great deal of money, as well as attention and focus on the program.
[46:26.440 --> 46:30.860]  Hackers will earn the highest bounties for identifying the most severe bugs.
[46:31.040 --> 46:34.900]  DHS said some private companies offer much higher bounties for uncovering vulnerabilities.
[46:34.900 --> 46:39.780]  For instance, um, uh, payouts from Apple can range from $25,000 to a million dollars.
[46:39.900 --> 46:41.940]  Microsoft offers up to $200,000.
[46:42.700 --> 46:44.260]  Um, but this is interesting.
[46:44.360 --> 46:49.100]  You know, with one thing that's not in this story though, is how do you, how do you start?
[46:49.360 --> 46:56.100]  You just start hacking, uh, DHS and say, Oh, you know, by the way, I found this, give me money now.
[46:57.000 --> 47:04.000]  Uh, you know, I, I think you really need to be clear about, uh, how to do this without having your door kicked in by federal agents.
[47:04.340 --> 47:22.820]  Um, so if we get that information, we'll, we'll, I think what they mean is you, uh, acquire software or evidence of, of, uh, exploits that in the, the auditing of, of various systems or services that you encounter, um, it's not necessarily breaking into DHS.
[47:22.820 --> 47:24.180]  How do you encounter it?
[47:24.260 --> 47:25.560]  You have to go to their site.
[47:25.960 --> 47:26.340]  All right.
[47:26.380 --> 47:29.320]  And then you have to start testing some things, right?
[47:29.820 --> 47:30.460]  I don't know.
[47:30.500 --> 47:32.480]  Are they providing the stuff that they want to value?
[47:32.480 --> 47:33.220]  It's not clear.
[47:33.500 --> 47:34.480]  I mean, I'll give you the story.
[47:34.580 --> 47:37.520]  If it's a bug bounty program, it's just any, anything out there.
[47:37.520 --> 47:39.660]  Uh, so they, they want to know about everything.
[47:39.880 --> 47:55.140]  This is for the cybersecurity, uh, uh, initiative there to, to, uh, get, have advanced warning of, of exploits, I think before, uh, bad actors as they're referred to get, get ahold of them.
[47:55.340 --> 47:56.500]  Alex, you have something that we'll go to our caller.
[47:57.280 --> 47:57.680]  Yeah.
[47:57.900 --> 47:58.020]  Yeah.
[47:58.140 --> 47:58.560]  Very quickly.
[47:58.700 --> 48:08.600]  I, I think, um, it, it sounds like it could be a strange line, but, but there certainly is a line there because it's possible to identify vulnerabilities without gaining unauthorized access.
[48:08.940 --> 48:20.840]  Now, there would still be bad to do something without authorization on somebody else's system, but it is certainly also possible to identify flaws, vulnerabilities, configuration errors, things like that from just looking at the outside too.
[48:21.340 --> 48:22.280]  They hung up again?
[48:23.040 --> 48:23.480]  What?
[48:23.500 --> 48:23.640]  Yes.
[48:24.400 --> 48:24.780]  You sure?
[48:24.860 --> 48:25.100]  Who's that?
[48:25.240 --> 48:27.120]  Is anybody on the, uh, on the phone?
[48:28.020 --> 48:29.100]  No, there's nobody on the phone.
[48:29.260 --> 48:29.480]  Wow.
[48:29.820 --> 48:30.160]  Okay.
[48:30.220 --> 48:36.220]  Well, somebody either has no patience or is, uh, is, uh, is, is, is trying to prank us and it's not going to work.
[48:37.180 --> 48:38.200]  We invented this.
[48:38.320 --> 48:38.420]  Okay.
[48:38.860 --> 48:41.680]  802-321-4225, 802-321-HACK.
[48:41.800 --> 48:49.720]  All the more reason why, if you haven't called us, call us now because, uh, um, that's how it, all right, let's pick up fast and now we'll start talking.
[48:50.440 --> 48:51.120]  It's Dalton.
[48:51.220 --> 48:52.200]  Dalton just called us.
[48:52.360 --> 48:52.540]  Wow.
[48:53.340 --> 48:54.560]  Um, okay.
[48:54.700 --> 48:56.360]  Well, you know, we could just stop too.
[48:56.500 --> 48:57.000]  Is that what you want?
[48:57.060 --> 48:58.580]  You want us to just stop taking calls?
[48:58.760 --> 49:00.260]  Uh, then nobody gets to talk.
[49:00.520 --> 49:01.560]  Uh, Rob, you have something?
[49:02.640 --> 49:05.460]  Uh, while we're waiting for a caller, I'll just let you know that the U.S.
[49:05.540 --> 49:07.860]  Sun is actually a U.S.
[49:08.020 --> 49:10.640]  online edition of the Sun from, from the U.K.
[49:10.780 --> 49:11.080]  Uh-huh.
[49:11.180 --> 49:11.920]  That's what I thought.
[49:12.200 --> 49:12.600]  Okay.
[49:12.600 --> 49:16.860]  It is the British newspaper putting together an online edition for the U.S.
[49:17.500 --> 49:17.900]  Wow.
[49:18.140 --> 49:18.440]  Okay.
[49:18.580 --> 49:20.480]  And I just stumbled upon them by accident.
[49:20.920 --> 49:22.200]  It sounds made up.
[49:22.380 --> 49:23.040]  That's my point.
[49:23.160 --> 49:23.320]  Yeah.
[49:24.060 --> 49:28.560]  Oh, I'm going to give it another 30 seconds and then I'll have an announcement about phone calls.
[49:28.660 --> 49:30.260]  802-321-4225.
[49:30.380 --> 49:36.840]  We, uh, appreciate those people who have not called us before or have called us a long time ago, uh, to call in now.
[49:36.980 --> 49:38.900]  802-321-4225.
[49:42.360 --> 49:44.080]  Am I the only one who has something to say?
[49:45.240 --> 49:45.680]  Okay.
[49:46.300 --> 49:47.100]  We have a phone call?
[49:48.060 --> 49:48.500]  Hello.
[49:48.760 --> 49:50.380]  You're on overtime.
[49:51.100 --> 49:54.000]  And this sounds like Bobson, you are a regular caller.
[49:54.120 --> 49:55.780]  I guess my words mean nothing, do they?
[49:56.860 --> 49:58.140]  Okay, Bobson, go ahead.
[50:00.620 --> 50:11.940]  I was glad to hear about the dates for Hope next July, but I have a question relating to that.
[50:12.400 --> 50:19.080]  Are you planning on streaming the Dutch Hacker Camp at Hope?
[50:19.080 --> 50:21.200]  Well, uh, that's an interesting question.
[50:21.200 --> 50:27.280]  We, we have not yet been in touch with the Dutch, uh, Hacker Camp people, but that is certainly something that we could do.
[50:27.600 --> 50:32.040]  Uh, we could have a whole area devoted to the Dutch Hacker Conference.
[50:32.160 --> 50:39.460]  So you could attend the Dutch Hacker Conference without leaving the country, uh, if, if, uh, they're amenable to that and, and vice versa.
[50:39.680 --> 50:48.000]  So, um, uh, having that happen the same weekend is reminiscent of 1997 when, uh, we had a Dutch Hacker Conference at the same time as Beyond Hope.
[50:48.420 --> 50:53.840]  And, um, I think we're a lot better suited to, uh, uh, to simulcast it than we were back then.
[50:55.640 --> 51:03.080]  They are very likely to be streaming, so it shouldn't be too complicated to get around it.
[51:03.240 --> 51:09.520]  But yeah, it's a conflict of some in the timing of it.
[51:09.720 --> 51:21.560]  But no, I, I don't think so because of, uh, you know, the people, um, uh, traveling from far away, uh, it's more convenient if you're going to something local, but you can also connect to another event.
[51:21.560 --> 51:29.880]  And that's, that's how we're looking at this right now, because there are plenty of people, uh, in, in this country and in neighboring countries that will want to attend Hope.
[51:30.400 --> 51:34.540]  Uh, but also it's a way to see the Dutch Hacker Conference at the same time.
[51:34.680 --> 51:36.220]  We won't be streaming the Dutch Hacker Conference.
[51:36.480 --> 51:37.740]  Obviously they'll be doing that.
[51:37.960 --> 51:42.120]  Uh, but, uh, it's a way for our attendees to also share in that event.
[51:42.760 --> 51:46.960]  And they're six hours away time-wise anyway.
[51:47.280 --> 51:47.820]  Right, right.
[51:48.200 --> 51:51.880]  So it's going to make it easier, but... Mm-hmm.
[51:52.280 --> 51:57.760]  Well, that's, that's why having 24-hour conference, you know, around the clock is a good thing.
[51:59.920 --> 52:00.420]  Yep.
[52:01.080 --> 52:01.900]  And anything else?
[52:03.920 --> 52:10.500]  Well, no, uh, thank you for the show and, uh, it's been fun.
[52:12.060 --> 52:13.460]  Well, thank you for listening.
[52:13.680 --> 52:16.520]  And, uh, it's very late over there in, in Bulgaria.
[52:16.720 --> 52:21.580]  I think I'm partially using copper telephone wire at some point.
[52:21.780 --> 52:23.880]  Now, are they pulling this over there in Bulgaria?
[52:24.040 --> 52:26.140]  Are they trying to get people to disconnect their copper lines?
[52:28.100 --> 52:35.500]  I think they attempted to do it at some point, but, uh, I don't know how far they got to do it.
[52:36.860 --> 52:37.040]  Uh-huh.
[52:37.700 --> 52:40.900]  Well, over there, people tend to, uh, rise up and stop things.
[52:42.780 --> 52:50.220]  Or, you, we can just get together and just help them disconnect it and just start pulling and pulling it out, taking down all the wires.
[52:50.220 --> 52:53.200]  If they don't need it, we should just help.
[52:53.340 --> 52:55.260]  If they don't want it, give it to somebody who does.
[52:55.540 --> 52:58.340]  Let's have hackers run copper lines throughout the country.
[52:58.460 --> 52:59.760]  I actually, I would prefer that, too.
[52:59.760 --> 53:01.100]  Take over the central offices.
[53:01.800 --> 53:03.020]  We'll take over the wires.
[53:03.240 --> 53:05.760]  We'll answer the complaints from the customers.
[53:07.440 --> 53:09.940]  It's, you know, it's a better idea than disconnecting it.
[53:10.320 --> 53:20.960]  As far as I know, the power situation at, uh, central offices is not big generators, but big batteries in recent years.
[53:21.240 --> 53:22.140]  Yes, that's true.
[53:22.360 --> 53:22.860]  It's always...
[53:22.860 --> 53:23.460]  Yes, big batteries.
[53:23.460 --> 53:35.780]  It's always been batteries because it's a negative 48-volt DC, uh, power system for the switching, the, the older, um, copper analog switching.
[53:36.120 --> 53:39.380]  But I've seen them bring in generators when that's an extended outage.
[53:39.520 --> 53:41.160]  I've, I've seen that happen at central offices.
[53:41.300 --> 53:45.160]  Yes, that's, uh, that's, uh, typical in outages to power the batteries.
[53:45.440 --> 53:45.620]  Oh.
[53:45.940 --> 53:46.160]  Yeah.
[53:46.740 --> 53:47.100]  Fig.
[53:48.680 --> 53:49.960]  What, what, what's that, Bobson?
[53:51.920 --> 54:03.040]  The generators brought in addition, in addition to present capacities is, uh, uh, supplemental in case of an emergency.
[54:03.340 --> 54:06.260]  Right, because they usually have power, so there's no, there's no need for that.
[54:06.340 --> 54:08.640]  But what, the batteries will last a very long time.
[54:08.800 --> 54:09.840]  It'll last weeks.
[54:10.240 --> 54:12.380]  So, uh, yeah, that's a good thing.
[54:15.060 --> 54:16.640]  And they weigh tons.
[54:17.780 --> 54:19.340]  Well, yes, they're very heavy.
[54:19.340 --> 54:25.160]  I say, uh, people think creatively, start a cooperative telephone company.
[54:25.420 --> 54:26.100]  They have those.
[54:26.200 --> 54:27.560]  Like we are, we're starting one.
[54:27.660 --> 54:30.580]  There are, okay, I'd like to, this is, this is a challenge to listeners.
[54:31.060 --> 54:33.400]  There are places, in fact, we, we saw one.
[54:33.660 --> 54:38.760]  We took a picture outside a cooperative, uh, uh, telephone company somewhere as we were driving across the country.
[54:38.960 --> 54:39.240]  We did.
[54:39.440 --> 54:40.860]  They exist all over the place.
[54:40.980 --> 54:50.800]  So if you're near one of those, like it's citizens telephone company or something like that, find out, are they yanking the copper or are they preserving the copper?
[54:50.940 --> 54:54.840]  Or can they be convinced to preserve the copper when you have something smaller?
[54:55.060 --> 54:57.520]  And this is another reason why smaller can be better.
[54:57.940 --> 54:59.680]  Um, that might be the hope.
[54:59.800 --> 55:04.420]  What if, what if every, uh, community simply ran its own phone company?
[55:04.860 --> 55:06.380]  Hey, I think that would be cool.
[55:06.580 --> 55:06.720]  Okay.
[55:06.760 --> 55:08.860]  Maybe not hackers, but just the community.
[55:09.340 --> 55:17.680]  So, you know, you have the Brooklyn phone company and they're responsible for keeping the, the, the wired customers happy.
[55:18.080 --> 55:18.720]  What do you think?
[55:18.780 --> 55:19.500]  Copper, huh?
[55:19.700 --> 55:19.920]  Yeah.
[55:20.060 --> 55:20.260]  Copper.
[55:21.180 --> 55:27.440]  Well, I think it's that it's worthy of some, some creative uses of, uh, old technology.
[55:27.440 --> 55:30.780]  And, and I, I know people will, will, it will be weird.
[55:30.820 --> 55:34.000]  I hope, I hope it'll be very strange, whatever happens.
[55:34.000 --> 55:38.120]  And it doesn't just go into complete dilapidation and disrepair.
[55:38.240 --> 55:49.800]  I think it's, it's ripe for some, some kind of cool alternatives that aren't run on the same model that that infrastructure was run in the past, like that same business model.
[55:49.960 --> 55:55.620]  It's not going to be the same exact technology as it was back in the forties or something like that, but the basics will be there.
[55:55.780 --> 56:04.680]  You know, the, the basic idea of you have a phone line that will stay up when other things go down, but it doesn't have the same capabilities as something newer.
[56:04.980 --> 56:12.400]  And the customer understands that that's plumbing that they agree to in exchange for having that dependability when they want it.
[56:12.780 --> 56:15.820]  It's, you know, I just think it's something that we should not throw away.
[56:16.020 --> 56:19.400]  And like bookstores will regret it if we do throw them away.
[56:20.420 --> 56:21.380]  Anything else, Popsin?
[56:23.260 --> 56:24.700]  Well, nothing for now.
[56:25.320 --> 56:33.260]  I'm trying to plan the streaming in of various conferences for the coming July now.
[56:33.540 --> 56:33.780]  Okay.
[56:33.820 --> 56:36.420]  Well, I don't know if CCC is happening this year.
[56:36.680 --> 56:37.540]  Are you planning that one?
[56:38.780 --> 56:40.360]  Well, that's in December.
[56:40.760 --> 56:41.640]  This is December.
[56:41.820 --> 56:41.940]  Yeah.
[56:43.360 --> 56:44.740]  It's not happening in anything.
[56:44.920 --> 56:47.420]  CCC happening in a few weeks, maybe?
[56:47.580 --> 56:51.020]  No, I don't think it, well, if it is happening, it's, it's only online.
[56:51.020 --> 56:51.700]  Well, that's what I'm asking.
[56:51.820 --> 56:52.920]  Is it happening online?
[56:54.620 --> 56:59.560]  Well, it's likely to be if they are doing it this year, but I'm not sure they are.
[56:59.780 --> 56:59.980]  Okay.
[57:00.500 --> 57:02.840]  Well, I guess we'll find out and report back.
[57:02.960 --> 57:06.140]  Somebody will know because people are presenting things if it is happening.
[57:07.540 --> 57:09.000]  Anyway, good to hear your voice.
[57:09.160 --> 57:11.600]  And we might take one more phone call.
[57:12.300 --> 57:12.520]  Thanks.
[57:12.820 --> 57:13.680]  Have a great evening.
[57:13.780 --> 57:17.800]  Thanks for calling in, even though you're a regular caller, but that's okay.
[57:17.940 --> 57:19.540]  It's always good to hear Popsin's voice.
[57:20.240 --> 57:20.940]  So, okay.
[57:21.280 --> 57:22.720]  We'll have time for one more phone call.
[57:22.820 --> 57:23.860]  And I guess it can be anybody.
[57:24.380 --> 57:25.820]  802-321-4225.
[57:27.600 --> 57:29.740]  And then we'll be saying good night.
[57:30.340 --> 57:31.760]  You're reading Hacker Happenings, Kyle?
[57:32.240 --> 57:32.600]  Yes.
[57:32.900 --> 57:34.960]  In 2600, the Hacker Quarterly...
[57:34.960 --> 57:36.200]  Did you see the new issue came out?
[57:36.300 --> 57:36.520]  Yeah.
[57:36.680 --> 57:37.140]  Yeah, it did.
[57:37.260 --> 57:38.080]  It's really cool.
[57:38.200 --> 57:38.920]  What a cover, huh?
[57:38.920 --> 57:39.580]  I like this cover.
[57:39.580 --> 57:40.260]  That's a good cover.
[57:40.280 --> 57:41.120]  It's very clever.
[57:41.340 --> 57:42.240]  There's a reference...
[57:42.240 --> 57:43.300]  Well, I don't want to give it away.
[57:43.300 --> 57:50.060]  Anyway, page 61, it describes various events.
[57:50.340 --> 57:51.840]  And it says the chaos...
[57:51.840 --> 57:52.160]  The hacker events.
[57:52.280 --> 57:53.140]  Hacker Happenings.
[57:53.260 --> 57:53.340]  Yes.
[57:53.360 --> 57:53.780]  That's right.
[57:54.000 --> 57:55.300]  Chaos Communication Converse.
[57:55.580 --> 57:55.960]  What does it say?
[57:56.160 --> 57:59.760]  December 27th, 30th, as usual, and in-person event canceled.
[57:59.980 --> 58:01.340]  So, more information.
[58:01.620 --> 58:02.340]  What as usual?
[58:02.360 --> 58:03.300]  I didn't hear the first part.
[58:03.480 --> 58:04.400]  Something as usual?
[58:05.620 --> 58:07.340]  December 27th to the 30th.
[58:08.040 --> 58:09.620]  Their dates never change.
[58:09.800 --> 58:10.280]  Oh, yeah.
[58:10.280 --> 58:11.540]  But it's not in person.
[58:11.760 --> 58:12.120]  Not in person.
[58:12.240 --> 58:13.660]  That's confirmed according to...
[58:13.660 --> 58:14.640]  According to 2600.
[58:14.760 --> 58:15.540]  Okay, well, that's...
[58:15.540 --> 58:16.220]  Good magazine.
[58:16.380 --> 58:16.920]  It's okay.
[58:17.080 --> 58:18.160]  Yeah, it's good.
[58:18.160 --> 58:18.800]  I do things better.
[58:19.540 --> 58:21.200]  Anyway, let's see if we have a phone call.
[58:21.620 --> 58:22.260]  Good evening.
[58:22.420 --> 58:23.900]  You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
[58:24.440 --> 58:24.760]  Hello.
[58:25.180 --> 58:27.220]  This is a special offer for people with...
[58:27.220 --> 58:28.340]  Okay, you called already.
[58:29.360 --> 58:32.740]  And you called against our advice.
[58:34.320 --> 58:35.200]  And, unfortunately...
[58:35.200 --> 58:37.280]  This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you.
[58:37.480 --> 58:38.480]  Yeah, it's...
[58:39.040 --> 58:41.400]  Let's give one more person a chance.
[58:41.980 --> 58:44.880]  Anyone but Rebel or anyone who has called in tonight.
[58:45.000 --> 58:45.640]  I did kind of want to...
[58:45.640 --> 58:46.200]  Well, he did call in already.
[58:46.200 --> 58:47.880]  I did kind of want to hear the rest of that, but...
[58:47.880 --> 58:49.960]  802-321-4225.
[58:50.220 --> 58:53.000]  If the next call is Rebel, then we will take no more phone calls.
[58:53.200 --> 58:54.000]  How about that?
[58:54.080 --> 58:55.980]  That's the power that people have.
[58:57.460 --> 59:01.740]  But, again, if you haven't called or even if you have in the past, you may call us now.
[59:01.820 --> 59:03.480]  But we're going to be saying goodnight very soon.
[59:04.020 --> 59:06.820]  That's who you get to do your recordings if you start a telephone company.
[59:06.820 --> 59:08.320]  We have Rebel do all the recordings.
[59:09.300 --> 59:09.660]  Okay.
[59:10.340 --> 59:12.020]  I don't kind of phone count that you're planning.
[59:12.140 --> 59:14.360]  But, yeah, that would be interesting for sure.
[59:14.560 --> 59:15.900]  802-321-4225.
[59:16.240 --> 59:17.320]  802-321-HACK.
[59:18.960 --> 59:19.940]  And we'll give it a minute.
[59:20.620 --> 59:21.740]  Rob, looks like you have something to say.
[59:22.900 --> 59:31.160]  I'm just going to throw in, even though we're on YouTube here, we still appreciate our home at WBAI and think you should do what you can to keep it going.
[59:31.420 --> 59:41.040]  212-209-2950 or give to WBAI.org or towerfund.wbai.org to help us keep doing what we're doing.
[59:41.040 --> 59:48.400]  Yeah, you know, and radio is another example of technology that a lot of people say, yes, it's past its time.
[59:48.640 --> 59:50.340]  You know, you can get everything online.
[59:50.720 --> 59:51.960]  But, no, you can't.
[59:52.080 --> 01:00:00.260]  You can't really just turn on the Internet and listen the same way you can a radio.
[01:00:00.260 --> 01:00:07.480]  Radio, in so many different places, so many different environments, radio will always be different.
[01:00:07.940 --> 01:00:11.660]  And it will always be low-tech, something that anybody can access.
[01:00:11.820 --> 01:00:15.480]  When we do a show, we have no idea how many people are listening.
[01:00:15.660 --> 01:00:17.540]  There's anonymity in that as well.
[01:00:17.680 --> 01:00:23.780]  You can't watch the people looking at their IP addresses and say, oh, we have this many people tuning in.
[01:00:24.160 --> 01:00:30.020]  No, radio always will have that magic to it where you just don't know who's actually out there.
[01:00:30.020 --> 01:00:37.980]  And you find out years later, somebody was listening at a particular key moment as they were driving in their car because they just pressed one button, and there we were.
[01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:39.940]  You know, that's the magic.
[01:00:40.220 --> 01:00:43.340]  And I hope that never goes away.
[01:00:43.700 --> 01:00:44.620]  Yes, Rob, you had something else?
[01:00:45.180 --> 01:00:47.660]  That magic, too, just to speak on that for a bit.
[01:00:48.800 --> 01:00:52.660]  I use a site that's got a lot of subforums, and one of them is about radio.
[01:00:53.060 --> 01:01:01.980]  And I am seeing sort of an influx of posts from, I think, younger people who are asking, so what sort of stuff can I find on my radio airwaves?
[01:01:02.160 --> 01:01:10.040]  And, of course, this being on the Internet, and they don't say where they are or anything, so there's not much people in random places can do to answer that question for them.
[01:01:10.140 --> 01:01:11.620]  But the advice is always the same.
[01:01:12.040 --> 01:01:13.220]  You know, get a radio.
[01:01:13.420 --> 01:01:14.480]  Start at one end of the dial.
[01:01:14.740 --> 01:01:16.380]  You know, work your way to the other end.
[01:01:16.500 --> 01:01:17.180]  See what's there.
[01:01:17.260 --> 01:01:18.340]  See what's there to listen to.
[01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:19.720]  What you receive.
[01:01:19.860 --> 01:01:20.820]  Maybe there's some cool stuff.
[01:01:20.920 --> 01:01:22.780]  Maybe there's some interesting stuff, weird stuff, whatever.
[01:01:22.780 --> 01:01:26.660]  But it seems like people are still taking an interest.
[01:01:27.420 --> 01:01:30.000]  You know, radio is far from dead.
[01:01:30.600 --> 01:01:34.900]  You know, and I say this while we stream on the Internet, but, you know, radio is still very important.
[01:01:35.140 --> 01:01:39.500]  Analog terrestrial radio is still very important, and there is so much stuff out there.
[01:01:39.760 --> 01:01:44.480]  And, you know, wherever you're listening to this from, check out your local area.
[01:01:44.700 --> 01:01:50.580]  Check out what's going on on that dial and see what's, like, blazing around the spectrums around you that you never even knew about.
[01:01:50.580 --> 01:01:58.620]  But if radio was dead, then all those companies that own radio stations would give them up, and they wouldn't sell for tens of millions of dollars each.
[01:01:59.180 --> 01:02:00.280]  That's rule number one.
[01:02:00.460 --> 01:02:01.800]  Okay, let's see who we have on the phone.
[01:02:02.120 --> 01:02:02.720]  Good evening.
[01:02:02.860 --> 01:02:03.960]  You're on off-took over time.
[01:02:05.720 --> 01:02:06.660]  Hello, am I on the line?
[01:02:06.760 --> 01:02:07.260]  Yes, you are.
[01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:09.480]  Okay, yeah.
[01:02:09.560 --> 01:02:11.580]  And I just want to give you all a shout-out.
[01:02:11.700 --> 01:02:12.840]  I'm all the way in South Africa.
[01:02:13.340 --> 01:02:14.240]  Oh, my goodness.
[01:02:14.380 --> 01:02:15.140]  And I'm here in South Africa.
[01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:15.760]  Wow.
[01:02:15.760 --> 01:02:18.060]  I don't think we've ever gotten a call from South Africa before.
[01:02:19.080 --> 01:02:27.260]  I just thought it would be kind of wild to just call in, because your show is actually on in the lobby, and everybody's listening to it in the lobby.
[01:02:27.520 --> 01:02:30.620]  Wait, what lobby are we broadcasting in?
[01:02:31.740 --> 01:02:37.260]  Well, it's a hotel lobby, and the guy at the desk, he says he listens to this show on the computer every week.
[01:02:37.400 --> 01:02:40.140]  Okay, you are in the coolest hotel in South Africa.
[01:02:40.300 --> 01:02:41.560]  Let me just say that right now.
[01:02:42.500 --> 01:02:44.500]  Maybe offline we'll find out or something.
[01:02:44.500 --> 01:02:48.980]  If you want to tell us the name, and everybody in the community will stay there from now on.
[01:02:50.160 --> 01:02:51.120]  I'll get him in trouble.
[01:02:51.120 --> 01:02:51.680]  Maybe I don't want to.
[01:02:51.880 --> 01:02:52.840]  Okay, no problem.
[01:02:53.180 --> 01:02:54.240]  He might get in trouble or something.
[01:02:54.500 --> 01:02:55.240]  Yeah, we don't want that.
[01:02:55.360 --> 01:02:59.560]  Well, I just thought it would be kind of wild to just call in, but great show, though.
[01:02:59.720 --> 01:03:00.140]  Great show.
[01:03:00.220 --> 01:03:00.800]  Very entertaining.
[01:03:01.380 --> 01:03:02.160]  Thank you very much.
[01:03:02.180 --> 01:03:04.220]  Is there much of a hacker community in South Africa?
[01:03:06.140 --> 01:03:07.220]  You know, I don't know.
[01:03:07.400 --> 01:03:08.040]  I don't know.
[01:03:08.440 --> 01:03:09.040]  I don't know.
[01:03:09.060 --> 01:03:10.680]  I know there is in Nigeria, for sure.
[01:03:10.940 --> 01:03:11.180]  Really?
[01:03:11.360 --> 01:03:12.300]  I'm not sure about South Africa.
[01:03:12.580 --> 01:03:13.820]  Yeah, I know there is in Nigeria.
[01:03:14.780 --> 01:03:15.220]  Wow.
[01:03:16.980 --> 01:03:18.360]  I guess, Rob, you have a question.
[01:03:19.300 --> 01:03:21.600]  Caller, you're in South Africa, but you're in a hotel.
[01:03:21.600 --> 01:03:23.620]  Are you local, or are you visiting South Africa?
[01:03:24.500 --> 01:03:25.440]  What's your story?
[01:03:25.600 --> 01:03:26.300]  I'm just visiting.
[01:03:26.520 --> 01:03:27.320]  I'm just visiting.
[01:03:27.460 --> 01:03:30.140]  My neighbor moved down here, so I just came out here to see him, basically.
[01:03:30.360 --> 01:03:30.920]  I'm just visiting.
[01:03:31.160 --> 01:03:32.520]  And where are you from normally?
[01:03:33.620 --> 01:03:34.340]  I'm from here.
[01:03:34.500 --> 01:03:35.700]  I'm from New York, from New Jersey.
[01:03:35.980 --> 01:03:36.160]  Okay.
[01:03:36.660 --> 01:03:37.060]  Wow.
[01:03:39.100 --> 01:03:41.020]  But I've never heard this show before.
[01:03:41.260 --> 01:03:44.360]  I've never heard of this show until I came here.
[01:03:44.500 --> 01:03:46.120]  And I just heard it in the lobby.
[01:03:46.280 --> 01:03:47.140]  And I was like...
[01:03:47.140 --> 01:03:48.240]  So, wow.
[01:03:48.440 --> 01:03:50.420]  Have you heard of WBAI before?
[01:03:51.800 --> 01:03:55.120]  No, I have heard of the other one, NPR.
[01:03:55.460 --> 01:03:55.800]  Okay.
[01:03:55.980 --> 01:03:56.240]  All right.
[01:03:56.280 --> 01:03:57.040]  I thought this was NPR.
[01:03:57.340 --> 01:03:58.540]  I thought this was NPR.
[01:03:58.540 --> 01:04:00.520]  Yeah, NPR would never let us do this.
[01:04:00.640 --> 01:04:03.380]  But we're not actually on the radio right now.
[01:04:03.520 --> 01:04:06.480]  We're on the internet, but we were on the radio before and the internet.
[01:04:07.100 --> 01:04:13.480]  But when you get back to New York, when you get back to New York, be sure to tune to 99.5 FM, especially on Wednesday at 7 p.m.
[01:04:14.780 --> 01:04:15.140]  Right.
[01:04:15.300 --> 01:04:16.240]  That's what he just told me.
[01:04:16.420 --> 01:04:17.460]  Somebody here just told me that.
[01:04:17.640 --> 01:04:17.900]  Uh-huh.
[01:04:19.040 --> 01:04:19.400]  Wow.
[01:04:19.500 --> 01:04:20.100]  Well, if I...
[01:04:20.100 --> 01:04:27.200]  I am so happy that you, a New Yorker, went down to South Africa just to be introduced to a bunch of New Yorkers making New York radio.
[01:04:27.800 --> 01:04:29.520]  That makes me so happy.
[01:04:29.640 --> 01:04:30.800]  Thank you so much for calling us.
[01:04:32.320 --> 01:04:35.040]  Caller, is it your first time visiting down there?
[01:04:35.180 --> 01:04:36.120]  And what are your impressions?
[01:04:36.120 --> 01:04:38.820]  What's going on other than hacking?
[01:04:39.100 --> 01:04:41.600]  What would you have to say about the area or your experience there?
[01:04:42.820 --> 01:04:43.560]  It's just...
[01:04:43.560 --> 01:04:44.780]  It's so beautiful down here.
[01:04:44.960 --> 01:04:45.600]  Very nice.
[01:04:45.780 --> 01:04:46.400]  Very nice.
[01:04:46.720 --> 01:04:49.140]  But, you know, there's a lot of crime here too.
[01:04:49.380 --> 01:04:52.900]  But if you're in the right locations, it's so nice.
[01:04:53.180 --> 01:04:54.040]  It's not even...
[01:04:54.040 --> 01:04:55.860]  You won't even know you're in Africa, honestly.
[01:04:56.100 --> 01:04:57.240]  It's very nice here.
[01:04:58.080 --> 01:04:59.140]  It's very nice here.
[01:04:59.140 --> 01:05:02.200]  There's a lot of anxiety with the COVID thing going on right now.
[01:05:02.500 --> 01:05:02.600]  Right.
[01:05:02.600 --> 01:05:04.160]  And I'm anxiety with that, but...
[01:05:04.160 --> 01:05:05.000]  Oh, I imagine.
[01:05:05.000 --> 01:05:06.740]  And I imagine there's a lot of concern.
[01:05:06.900 --> 01:05:09.860]  The UK just took them off the list today, so they're able to travel again.
[01:05:09.920 --> 01:05:15.460]  Yeah, that was horribly unfair because, you know, they discovered the Omicron variant in South Africa.
[01:05:16.080 --> 01:05:18.200]  It's not like that was the only place it was coming from.
[01:05:18.320 --> 01:05:22.480]  It was coming from all different countries as well who were not banned as far as travel.
[01:05:23.180 --> 01:05:25.540]  So I'm glad the UK has taken that step.
[01:05:26.740 --> 01:05:27.100]  Yeah.
[01:05:28.180 --> 01:05:28.660]  All right.
[01:05:28.780 --> 01:05:29.520]  Enjoy your show.
[01:05:29.700 --> 01:05:30.220]  Thanks a lot.
[01:05:30.380 --> 01:05:31.140]  Thank you for calling.
[01:05:31.480 --> 01:05:32.000]  Appreciate you.
[01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:35.280]  Thank you.
[01:05:35.400 --> 01:05:36.560]  And give them our best.
[01:05:36.700 --> 01:05:36.880]  Yeah.
[01:05:37.160 --> 01:05:37.840]  Keep listening.
[01:05:38.620 --> 01:05:38.840]  Wow.
[01:05:39.100 --> 01:05:39.280]  Okay.
[01:05:39.880 --> 01:05:43.440]  That's why you hold out for the new callers, okay?
[01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:47.380]  We got a nine-year-old kid and we got somebody from South Africa.
[01:05:47.580 --> 01:05:51.140]  And sandwiched in between all that, we have a lot of cool callers as well.
[01:05:51.140 --> 01:05:55.320]  Thanks, everyone out there for streaming and catching us on the radio.
[01:05:56.380 --> 01:05:58.560]  I think we're going to call it a night.
[01:05:58.760 --> 01:06:15.260]  We'll be back with more stories, more news and updates about the HOPE Conference and everything going on on the WBAI airwaves as well as in the Northeast and America and the rest of our world.
[01:06:21.540 --> 01:06:22.800]  And we will be updating it.
[01:06:22.900 --> 01:06:23.920]  Yeah, there's nothing there now.
[01:06:24.060 --> 01:06:28.280]  We're very little there, but there's going to be a lot more and ways that you can get involved.
[01:06:28.600 --> 01:06:33.460]  And it's going to be an amazing conference in July at St. John's University.
[01:06:33.740 --> 01:06:37.240]  You can write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[01:06:37.380 --> 01:06:43.460]  And you can donate to WBAI at give to WBAI.org or by calling 212-209-2950.
[01:06:44.140 --> 01:06:49.980]  We will be back on WBAI next Wednesday, 7 p.m., also broadcast on the Internet.
[01:06:50.140 --> 01:06:54.860]  And, of course, we will be on our YouTube Overtime next week at 8 p.m.
[01:06:54.940 --> 01:06:56.180]  on Channel 2600.
[01:06:57.320 --> 01:06:59.940]  So I guess that's it.
[01:07:00.120 --> 01:07:01.320]  Alex, looks like you have something to say.
[01:07:01.400 --> 01:07:02.280]  You have your finger raised.
[01:07:02.600 --> 01:07:09.320]  Yeah, I'm just amazed that we're able to have a whole bunch of hackers together for over two hours now.
[01:07:09.320 --> 01:07:12.340]  And nobody talked about Log4j.
[01:07:12.520 --> 01:07:14.400]  I think that deserves actually...
[01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:18.840]  You know, I was going to bring that up, but I realized if I did, it's going to be another 25 minutes of discussion.
[01:07:18.980 --> 01:07:23.540]  But do you want to maybe just give it a one-minute summation and we can talk about it next week?
[01:07:23.600 --> 01:07:30.760]  I think we should end it right there because I think it's wonderful that we haven't talked about Log4j because it's so annoying.
[01:07:30.900 --> 01:07:32.300]  It's driving everybody freaking crazy.
[01:07:32.760 --> 01:07:33.900]  Let's not even mention it.
[01:07:34.040 --> 01:07:35.300]  I have no idea what it is.
[01:07:35.380 --> 01:07:38.500]  It's something that can infect billions of computers, I understand.
[01:07:39.580 --> 01:07:40.420]  Billions, yes.
[01:07:41.140 --> 01:07:48.020]  Massive remote code execution vulnerability based on a Java library that's in almost everything.
[01:07:48.340 --> 01:07:50.100]  So it's a big deal.
[01:07:50.280 --> 01:07:52.980]  But it was nice not to talk about it.
[01:07:53.060 --> 01:07:55.280]  It was nice to talk about other things tonight, I have to say.
[01:07:55.440 --> 01:07:56.120]  I mean that sincerely.
[01:07:56.320 --> 01:07:58.760]  I'm not taking any dig at the show or us.
[01:07:59.000 --> 01:08:00.640]  I think it's a good thing.
[01:08:00.680 --> 01:08:01.640]  I think he might be.
[01:08:01.880 --> 01:08:02.280]  No doubt.
[01:08:02.680 --> 01:08:03.740]  Yeah, he might be.
[01:08:03.840 --> 01:08:04.780]  He's got his fingers crossed.
[01:08:04.780 --> 01:08:05.160]  Look at him.
[01:08:05.160 --> 01:08:09.800]  I'm certainly being covered at holiday parties all over.
[01:08:09.980 --> 01:08:15.500]  Do you think maybe people might be looking to us to say something about this and are very disappointed that we have not?
[01:08:16.040 --> 01:08:17.520]  Well, we have now.
[01:08:18.100 --> 01:08:19.500]  We didn't say anything though.
[01:08:19.500 --> 01:08:21.980]  We just identified what it's called.
[01:08:24.080 --> 01:08:24.680]  Log4j.
[01:08:24.680 --> 01:08:27.260]  Now we're calling it log4shell, right?
[01:08:27.500 --> 01:08:33.080]  I mean, look, it's a terrible, incredibly dangerous vulnerability.
[01:08:33.080 --> 01:08:35.580]  And everybody needs to take account of this right now.
[01:08:36.180 --> 01:08:38.980]  Log4j is the Java library that's vulnerable.
[01:08:39.380 --> 01:08:42.060]  Log4shell is what we're calling the exploit itself.
[01:08:42.060 --> 01:08:47.820]  So, okay, quickly, what can people do to keep themselves more safe other than turning off their computers?
[01:08:48.880 --> 01:08:50.960]  Well, look, I mean, there's...
[01:08:50.960 --> 01:08:57.560]  If you're running a network that has log4j as a vulnerability, this is a very contested topic.
[01:08:57.740 --> 01:08:59.200]  There's lots of things that you can look for.
[01:09:00.120 --> 01:09:02.400]  There's certain things that you might just need to shut down.
[01:09:02.540 --> 01:09:05.060]  You need to update and patch if possible.
[01:09:05.060 --> 01:09:09.480]  If your vendors are giving you patches, you need to install and update them right away.
[01:09:09.920 --> 01:09:12.880]  But, you know, other than that, there's going to be...
[01:09:12.880 --> 01:09:22.980]  If you need to run a critical system that doesn't have an update and that's public-facing, there's going to be a very severe remote code execution vulnerability on that system.
[01:09:22.980 --> 01:09:27.700]  And you need to isolate it and monitor it and make sure that it's not popped.
[01:09:27.900 --> 01:09:47.880]  And I think that, you know, one of the very dangerous things is that we anticipate that very soon this could turn into some kind of worm that propagates itself from one vulnerable system to another vulnerable system, incorporating automation, automated detection of the vulnerabilities and then automated exploitation of them.
[01:09:48.060 --> 01:09:50.300]  So it's a problem.
[01:09:50.460 --> 01:09:51.100]  It's a problem.
[01:09:51.180 --> 01:09:55.500]  Is there a particular type of system that's vulnerable to this more than others?
[01:09:56.100 --> 01:09:56.680]  No.
[01:09:56.680 --> 01:10:12.860]  The problem is, this is a, like Rob had said, it's a really, really popular open source logging library, meaning this is a library that software developers will call and use things from to record what's happening on their applications.
[01:10:13.380 --> 01:10:17.120]  And during their applications, what's the computer doing during this function call?
[01:10:17.600 --> 01:10:18.560]  You know, things like that.
[01:10:18.720 --> 01:10:22.960]  All of this type of logging is, it's a free and open source product.
[01:10:22.960 --> 01:10:32.520]  So it's incorporated in a gigantic amount of things from, from services to IOT devices to, you know, it's, it's, it's everywhere.
[01:10:33.260 --> 01:10:39.740]  So has a security fix been issued or is there any kind of advice being given to people that might have this?
[01:10:39.980 --> 01:10:46.760]  Well, because it's incorporated in all these different products, all of these different products need to address the vulnerability themselves.
[01:10:47.200 --> 01:10:47.760]  Wow.
[01:10:47.860 --> 01:10:54.580]  So you need to have all, you need to have updates from every single vulnerable piece of software out there that incorporates this.
[01:10:54.880 --> 01:10:56.860]  There's not just one universal fix.
[01:10:57.040 --> 01:11:01.840]  Are there examples of the software that, that, uh, use this, that people might typically be running themselves?
[01:11:02.560 --> 01:11:03.000]  Oh yeah.
[01:11:03.100 --> 01:11:09.820]  I mean, this, this was found to even be, you know, this was actually the found, the finding of this originated in Minecraft servers.
[01:11:10.360 --> 01:11:25.640]  It was being passed, you know, this vulnerability I think was being exploited by, by having the chat function send this over so that it was, so that the, with a string of characters that's used in this vulnerability was then recorded to the log files in the Minecraft servers.
[01:11:25.920 --> 01:11:37.220]  And, and that's the other thing that's very scary about this is that the exploitation for the remote code exploitation is a very, very low barrier to entry with regard to sophistication.
[01:11:37.400 --> 01:11:46.440]  It's simply a long string of letters and numbers and you replace certain letters and numbers, you know, and IP addresses with where your malicious code is going to reside.
[01:11:47.300 --> 01:11:54.360]  And, um, and that's it and any number of things that, that can be, um, popped in this way.
[01:11:54.540 --> 01:11:58.400]  So it's, it's a very severe and very easy exploit.
[01:11:58.900 --> 01:12:02.960]  And, uh, is there any indication as to what happens when it is exploited?
[01:12:03.140 --> 01:12:04.920]  Is it, is it, is it ransomware?
[01:12:05.120 --> 01:12:06.720]  Is it systems crashing?
[01:12:06.940 --> 01:12:07.780]  Is it data stolen?
[01:12:07.920 --> 01:12:08.280]  What is it?
[01:12:08.880 --> 01:12:09.180]  Yeah.
[01:12:09.340 --> 01:12:22.120]  I mean, it could be anything we've, uh, you know, we, we've seen reports now from lots of different sources saying, you know, at first, the, the first exploitation of this actually happened before it was publicly released, apparently about there were,
[01:12:22.200 --> 01:12:24.880]  there, there were signs of this nine or 10 days before.
[01:12:25.100 --> 01:12:34.420]  So there may have been some, some leak of this, um, ahead of time, or perhaps another, uh, uh, sophisticated threat actor had found it.
[01:12:34.840 --> 01:12:47.840]  But, um, when the code was, had been used maliciously, apparently the first exploits involved, crypto mining, using some, you know, uh, servers processing power to mine cryptocurrency.
[01:12:48.660 --> 01:12:53.100]  But, uh, then it quickly evolved into other more serious things.
[01:12:53.220 --> 01:12:56.300]  And I, and I believe that there were reports of ransomware events already.
[01:12:57.360 --> 01:12:57.800]  Interesting.
[01:12:58.440 --> 01:12:58.700]  Yeah.
[01:12:58.860 --> 01:13:02.640]  Well, uh, you know, congratulations to whoever figured out how to do this.
[01:13:02.940 --> 01:13:13.120]  Uh, now we have to clean up the mess and, um, it's, it's going to be interesting, but you know, it's, it's what we always say that, uh, we can't become too dependent on technology or we will pay the price.
[01:13:13.420 --> 01:13:16.940]  And here's an example of something that apparently we were not prepared for.
[01:13:17.420 --> 01:13:20.840]  Uh, I mean, you, you said that every piece of software has to be updated.
[01:13:20.920 --> 01:13:26.060]  What if you're using a piece of software that no longer has updates that you're happy with, that you want to keep using?
[01:13:26.240 --> 01:13:27.380]  Yeah, that's a big problem.
[01:13:27.540 --> 01:13:27.960]  That's a problem.
[01:13:28.500 --> 01:13:28.660]  Yep.
[01:13:29.300 --> 01:13:38.640]  And at that point, if it's not updated, you would probably have no indication from the, the developer, the manufacturer of the software that it contained any remote code.
[01:13:41.040 --> 01:13:53.380]  indication whatsoever that you had this vulnerability inherent in your system, but there's going to have to be, you know, better ways of scanning for this vulnerability within your, your software that are developed as well, because, you know, like, uh,
[01:13:54.320 --> 01:14:04.620]  you know, much like the Corona virus, I guess, you know, this is, this could be something that's with us for a very long time and we may need to learn to live with this vulnerability as opposed to simply eradicate it.
[01:14:05.380 --> 01:14:05.620]  Wow.
[01:14:05.880 --> 01:14:07.380]  That's quite a parallel there, Alex.
[01:14:07.380 --> 01:14:09.200]  That's, uh, that's something.
[01:14:10.080 --> 01:14:10.460]  All right.
[01:14:10.540 --> 01:14:11.060]  That's something.
[01:14:11.140 --> 01:14:11.200]  Yeah.
[01:14:11.260 --> 01:14:12.120]  Maybe we could end on that.
[01:14:12.560 --> 01:14:13.040]  Uh, yeah.
[01:14:13.140 --> 01:14:13.860]  Cheery not to end on.
[01:14:13.940 --> 01:14:14.780]  Rob, did you have something else?
[01:14:15.820 --> 01:14:22.780]  Uh, just that if you go to Wikipedia and look up the article for this log for shell, that's the word log, the numeral for, and the word shell.
[01:14:23.120 --> 01:14:29.780]  Um, there's been a very good article put together over there over the past few days about all this with, uh, you know, excellent resources at the end of it.
[01:14:29.780 --> 01:14:35.920]  But so, uh, if you're, if you're curious and we don't have time to go even more into this, but if you're curious, uh, that's a good starting place.
[01:14:36.120 --> 01:14:37.960]  Well, that's, I'm going to visit that right now.
[01:14:38.180 --> 01:14:40.300]  So, uh, thanks for, uh, for bringing that up.
[01:14:40.380 --> 01:14:41.540]  We will talk about it more next week.
[01:14:41.640 --> 01:14:42.020]  I'm sure.
[01:14:42.300 --> 01:14:43.660]  And there'll be a lot of changes by then.
[01:14:44.180 --> 01:14:47.360]  Um, again, write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[01:14:47.540 --> 01:14:48.620]  We will see you next week.
[01:14:49.920 --> 01:14:50.400]  Good night.