[00:00.000 --> 00:04.520]  ...that org online, which usually airs on Wednesdays at 6.30 p.m.
[00:05.580 --> 00:07.340]  Stay tuned for Off the Hook.
[00:07.880 --> 00:12.420]  That is coming up, and it's now 7 p.m.
[00:12.820 --> 00:13.640]  Stay tuned.
[00:30.500 --> 00:32.740]  Hello, it's WBAI New York.
[00:32.900 --> 00:33.880]  It's Wednesday evening.
[00:34.040 --> 00:35.160]  It's 7 o'clock.
[00:35.580 --> 00:36.600]  It's Off the Hook.
[00:42.170 --> 00:46.670]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:47.610 --> 00:49.630]  I cut myself while shaving.
[00:50.230 --> 00:52.210]  Now I can't make a cough.
[00:53.050 --> 00:55.010]  We couldn't get much worse.
[00:57.770 --> 01:00.430]  From Diddly Bump, but the best is back from worst.
[01:01.010 --> 01:02.930]  I hope that's understood.
[01:03.110 --> 01:04.030]  From Diddly Bump!
[02:08.860 --> 02:10.620]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:10.800 --> 02:12.600]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:13.740 --> 02:15.080]  Emanuel Goldstein over here.
[02:15.780 --> 02:16.900]  Kyle over there.
[02:17.260 --> 02:17.800]  Yo, what's up?
[02:18.120 --> 02:20.860]  We have over in Skypeland, Rob T.
[02:21.140 --> 02:21.600]  Firefly.
[02:22.420 --> 02:23.160]  Good evening.
[02:23.520 --> 02:24.360]  We have Alex.
[02:26.940 --> 02:28.200]  I can't hear you, Alex.
[02:29.480 --> 02:30.220]  What do you think?
[02:30.480 --> 02:32.120]  Okay, you're going to have to improve your microphone.
[02:32.400 --> 02:32.980]  And we have Gila.
[02:33.520 --> 02:34.180]  Good evening.
[02:34.420 --> 02:35.700]  Didn't expect to be third, did you?
[02:36.380 --> 02:39.420]  Yeah, Alex, your microphone is something really messed up with it.
[02:39.980 --> 02:40.740]  Is that right?
[02:40.740 --> 02:42.700]  Okay, much better now.
[02:42.860 --> 02:43.180]  Much better.
[02:44.100 --> 02:44.940]  That's terrible now.
[02:45.020 --> 02:46.320]  I think you have to lean forward.
[02:46.460 --> 02:47.020]  All right.
[02:47.160 --> 02:48.560]  Like it's the 1990s or something.
[02:49.320 --> 02:51.180]  Yeah, there's a proximity effect here.
[02:51.320 --> 02:53.700]  Yeah, I don't know what kind of hardware you're using there, but it's...
[02:53.700 --> 02:55.460]  You are coming in, though.
[02:55.580 --> 02:56.180]  We see you.
[02:56.700 --> 02:58.680]  That doesn't help the radio audience, does it?
[02:58.680 --> 02:59.060]  Yeah, okay.
[02:59.120 --> 03:01.000]  Looks like he's got some hardware.
[03:01.140 --> 03:03.420]  He's still tidying up there.
[03:03.580 --> 03:04.220]  Did you guys...
[03:04.220 --> 03:05.760]  It's a tin can and some string.
[03:06.000 --> 03:07.000]  He's getting soup out of the can.
[03:07.120 --> 03:08.340]  I just was alerted to this tweet.
[03:08.580 --> 03:10.260]  Do you guys look at Twitter at all?
[03:10.980 --> 03:15.020]  Well, somebody tweeted that they're not going to listen to Off the Hook anymore because we're too anti-Putin.
[03:17.740 --> 03:19.460]  I mean, thank you for that.
[03:19.580 --> 03:21.220]  That was the humor that I needed today.
[03:21.360 --> 03:23.620]  But oh my goodness, we're too anti-Putin.
[03:24.000 --> 03:25.640]  Can you be too anti-Putin?
[03:26.020 --> 03:26.760]  I don't know.
[03:26.980 --> 03:28.040]  Apparently around here you can.
[03:29.880 --> 03:33.020]  Well, this is as good a time as ever to test my new hardware.
[03:33.140 --> 03:33.680]  Is this any better?
[03:34.120 --> 03:35.300]  I hope you got the receipt.
[03:37.240 --> 03:37.560]  Seriously?
[03:37.820 --> 03:38.240]  It's that bad?
[03:38.360 --> 03:39.360]  Well, it's a little distorted.
[03:39.580 --> 03:40.700]  But then again...
[03:40.700 --> 03:42.480]  I think you went too far the other way.
[03:42.640 --> 03:44.260]  Alex, you get kind of distorted sometimes.
[03:44.260 --> 03:45.160]  It might be too close.
[03:45.340 --> 03:46.560]  You know, just back it up a little.
[03:46.860 --> 03:47.980]  And then you're just right.
[03:48.120 --> 03:48.980]  It's like...
[03:48.980 --> 03:50.240]  Are there radio shows?
[03:50.620 --> 03:53.020]  Test things out before they go on the air?
[03:53.120 --> 03:53.700]  No, let him try it.
[03:53.720 --> 03:54.120]  Let him try it.
[03:54.120 --> 03:54.540]  He's got it.
[03:54.620 --> 03:55.360]  I think he's got it now.
[03:56.200 --> 03:57.120]  Well, testing, testing.
[03:57.320 --> 03:57.980]  How are we doing here?
[03:58.000 --> 03:58.340]  That's fine.
[04:04.160 --> 04:04.780]  All right.
[04:04.880 --> 04:08.760]  We got all the lightheartedness out of the way.
[04:08.860 --> 04:09.940]  Some lightheadedness as well.
[04:10.660 --> 04:13.380]  On to the serious subject matter.
[04:13.600 --> 04:22.460]  And we had the day in court yesterday for our friend Virgil Griffith, who... It's been a long time coming.
[04:22.740 --> 04:36.640]  You know, we expected this back in September when he was convinced to plead guilty and sentencing was pushed back to, I think, December, then to January and then all the way to April at his lawyer's behest.
[04:36.780 --> 04:37.880]  We'll get into that later.
[04:39.920 --> 04:40.880]  And it wasn't good.
[04:41.160 --> 04:44.300]  We didn't expect it to be good, but it really wasn't good.
[04:45.260 --> 04:55.320]  He was sentenced to around five years in federal prison and forced to pay a $100,000 fine.
[04:55.540 --> 05:02.120]  I'd like to just read a couple of excerpts from a couple of different stories.
[05:02.260 --> 05:06.320]  First, this story from Coindesk.com.
[05:06.780 --> 05:10.740]  I'm going to read the opening paragraph to this story, and I'm going to read an opening paragraph to a different story.
[05:12.160 --> 05:23.820]  Former Ethereum developer Virgil Griffith will serve 63 months in prison and pay a $100,000 fine for helping North Koreans use cryptocurrencies to evade sanctions.
[05:26.080 --> 05:29.140]  Yeah, that's how the story is being reported in most of the mass media.
[05:29.320 --> 05:32.760]  You even saw that on BBC, and it's wrong, because that's not what he did.
[05:32.900 --> 05:36.920]  He did not help North Korea use cryptocurrencies to evade sanctions.
[05:37.080 --> 05:43.620]  Now, I'd like to read you the opening paragraph to a story from the Daily Beast, written by our friend Jose Pagliari.
[05:44.540 --> 05:57.480]  Virgil Griffith, a computer programmer known for his contributions to Wikipedia and the digital currency, Ethereum, was sentenced to 63 months in prison on Tuesday for speaking at a cryptocurrency conference in North Korea.
[05:59.600 --> 06:00.080]  Boom.
[06:00.680 --> 06:01.340]  That's it.
[06:01.820 --> 06:02.720]  That's the story.
[06:03.820 --> 06:06.560]  It's amazing what you can convey in an opening paragraph.
[06:06.700 --> 06:18.200]  And I think, you know, most people who, and I got to say, most people have no sympathy for Virgil because of the way it's been presented, because they believe that is what he was doing, that he was helping North Korea.
[06:18.960 --> 06:39.500]  When, in fact, he went to North Korea, spoke at a conference, answered some questions, which is what you do when people ask you questions in North Korea, and then got involved, and to his own admission, a bit over-involved in trying to figure out how to crack the security that would allow North Korea to evade sanctions.
[06:40.260 --> 06:41.780]  It was a mental exercise.
[06:42.560 --> 06:46.860]  There's no reason on earth he would be interested in helping the North Korean regime.
[06:46.860 --> 06:48.160]  It was a challenge.
[06:48.740 --> 06:56.280]  And that's something that so many people, unfortunately, in the legal system don't seem to understand.
[06:56.500 --> 06:57.540]  Alex, you're a rare exception.
[06:59.000 --> 07:04.500]  I'm going to read a little bit more from this story until I physically can't take it anymore.
[07:04.980 --> 07:06.440]  The coin desk story, that is.
[07:07.240 --> 07:10.740]  Most of it's not badly written, but the facts just are really upsetting.
[07:11.340 --> 07:20.320]  Though the crime carried a maximum penalty of 20 years, Griffith's plea deal with federal prosecutors brought the sentence down to a range of 63 to 78 months.
[07:21.360 --> 07:24.860]  So I guess we're supposed to feel grateful for that.
[07:25.620 --> 07:26.100]  Yeah.
[07:27.200 --> 07:36.240]  He spent approximately two years in custody, though he was released on bail for 14 of those months, and the court will count the remaining 10 months as time served.
[07:36.420 --> 07:44.180]  So even though his life has been living hell since 2019, those three years or so, 10 months, that's what he gets.
[07:45.200 --> 07:46.920]  The sentence was handed down by U.S.
[07:47.260 --> 07:51.480]  District Judge Kevin Castell of the Southern District of New York.
[07:53.180 --> 07:57.680]  And as mentioned, it's on the lower end of the prosecution's suggested sentencing guidelines.
[07:58.240 --> 08:00.420]  So let's all bow down and give thanks for that.
[08:01.700 --> 08:09.540]  Before he was sentenced, Virgil and his attorneys had a chance to address the court with any last objections or remarks.
[08:12.260 --> 08:27.880]  Brian Klein, who is Griffith's lead attorney, urged Judge Castell to consider factors that he believed had not been accounted for in the prosecution's sentencing guidelines, including the harsh conditions at Brooklyn's Metropolitan Detention Center, where he has been held,
[08:27.880 --> 08:29.120]  where I believe he's being held right now.
[08:30.160 --> 08:48.400]  A client described, and listeners prepare yourselves, described several really trying and inhumane conditions that Virgil experienced at MDC, including extended solitary quarantines due to COVID-19 outbreaks, no family visits, limited access to blankets and warm clothing,
[08:48.800 --> 08:51.240]  even being forced to use his sink as a toilet.
[08:52.740 --> 09:02.780]  He said that Virgil has been limited to two or less meals a day, usually peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, because gangs in MDC control the kitchens and the commissary.
[09:04.040 --> 09:18.000]  And because of those harsh conditions, Klein asked the judge to consider counting the 10 months that he has spent in prison as double, and also asked that his client be moved to Allenwood in Pennsylvania, where he might be closer to extended family.
[09:18.000 --> 09:22.620]  I don't know how the second request went, but the first request denied.
[09:25.220 --> 09:30.240]  Klein also informed Judge Castell of a recent psychological assessment of Griffith, etc., etc.
[09:34.000 --> 09:37.940]  He was found by a psychiatrist to be treatable, not likely to re-offend.
[09:39.300 --> 09:39.960]  Didn't matter.
[09:41.660 --> 09:52.400]  When Virgil himself was given an opportunity to speak, he told the court that he had spent time in prison thinking about how he genuinely, arrogantly, and erroneously thought I knew better than his loved ones who warned him against going to North Korea.
[09:53.140 --> 09:54.240]  I've learned my lesson.
[09:54.820 --> 09:58.520]  I'm still profoundly embarrassed that I am here and of what I have done.
[09:58.660 --> 10:00.040]  Why is that not enough?
[10:00.500 --> 10:02.120]  The hell he has gone through already.
[10:05.340 --> 10:10.140]  And basically owning up to what he did, what he actually did.
[10:10.880 --> 10:12.860]  Why doesn't that seem to matter at all?
[10:13.640 --> 10:21.600]  I want to read some things the judge said, because I think this is really, really important and revealing.
[10:22.460 --> 10:23.840]  This is what Judge Castell said.
[10:24.280 --> 10:28.900]  There is an argument that Virgil Griffith is a kind and thoughtful man.
[10:33.260 --> 10:37.020]  He goes on to say, But those are not the facts.
[10:38.780 --> 10:40.060]  How dare he?
[10:40.480 --> 10:41.540]  This is my friend.
[10:41.760 --> 10:43.260]  This is somebody I know well.
[10:43.480 --> 10:46.760]  Did you even have a conversation with this guy?
[10:47.720 --> 10:59.540]  And you preach from your bench and condemn him to five years in prison based on ignorance, based on hatred and ignorance.
[10:59.960 --> 11:02.000]  Because you do not know him.
[11:02.520 --> 11:04.460]  You didn't bother to find out.
[11:05.060 --> 11:06.880]  You might as well just be reading Fox News.
[11:10.160 --> 11:19.600]  What you see here, Castell continued, is an intentionality and a desire to educate people on how to evade sanctions.
[11:20.840 --> 11:22.000]  Note the words there.
[11:23.020 --> 11:24.140]  Educate people.
[11:25.320 --> 11:28.440]  Not just educate North Korea.
[11:29.060 --> 11:29.620]  People.
[11:29.840 --> 11:30.580]  All of us.
[11:30.680 --> 11:31.060]  You.
[11:31.300 --> 11:33.700]  You, Judge Castell, could have heard something.
[11:33.800 --> 11:34.980]  You could have learned something from this.
[11:34.980 --> 11:36.480]  The FBI could have learned something.
[11:37.320 --> 11:40.240]  We all could have benefited from this knowledge.
[11:41.220 --> 11:42.020]  But no.
[11:42.480 --> 11:47.280]  He had this desire to educate people on something that you don't want people to know about.
[11:47.700 --> 11:49.740]  The security holes he's talking about?
[11:49.900 --> 11:50.500]  Still there?
[11:51.360 --> 11:52.920]  You're not going to learn about them now.
[11:54.960 --> 12:01.700]  And you can't blame him for things that happen when he's not around to point out the security holes in the first place.
[12:02.440 --> 12:13.740]  Judge Castell read a series of text messages and emails from Virgil, which he admits to sharing information with North Korea for the express purpose of helping the repressive Kim regime evade sanctions.
[12:13.880 --> 12:22.260]  Well, I'd like to see those very messages and interpret them the way they were intended.
[12:22.580 --> 12:25.400]  Because text messages are not broadcast to the world.
[12:25.580 --> 12:27.260]  They're sent to individuals.
[12:27.260 --> 12:29.300]  And they can contain sarcasm.
[12:29.660 --> 12:31.700]  They can contain exaggeration.
[12:31.840 --> 12:33.960]  They can be completely fictionalized.
[12:34.920 --> 12:37.580]  But I don't expect the federal judge to understand that.
[12:39.260 --> 12:41.780]  We're just looking at the literal interpretation.
[12:42.900 --> 12:46.080]  And when you do that, you can condemn somebody for almost anything.
[12:47.000 --> 12:49.960]  But this is what really apparently upset Judge Castell.
[12:50.640 --> 12:51.460]  More than anything.
[12:51.740 --> 12:57.620]  A photo of Virgil at the conference wearing a traditional North Korean suit.
[12:57.720 --> 12:59.060]  Hey, I got news for you, Judge.
[12:59.660 --> 13:00.500]  Can I call him Judge?
[13:00.560 --> 13:01.680]  Is that too disrespectful?
[13:01.920 --> 13:02.240]  Your Honor.
[13:02.740 --> 13:03.380]  Your Honor.
[13:03.480 --> 13:04.060]  And I'm air quoting.
[13:05.840 --> 13:07.660]  That's what you get when you go to North Korea.
[13:07.660 --> 13:08.480]  You get a suit.
[13:08.600 --> 13:09.760]  And that's what you have to wear.
[13:10.000 --> 13:10.400]  Okay?
[13:10.500 --> 13:11.320]  It's not a choice.
[13:11.780 --> 13:13.420]  It's not Virgil being a wise guy.
[13:13.860 --> 13:15.120]  Although he could be a wise guy.
[13:15.260 --> 13:16.140]  And there's nothing wrong with that.
[13:16.240 --> 13:19.240]  But he was wearing what he was told to wear over there.
[13:19.360 --> 13:24.740]  Because that is the respectful way of presenting yourself in those situations.
[13:24.920 --> 13:26.800]  I did the same thing when I went over there.
[13:28.100 --> 13:29.700]  So anyway, that pissed him off.
[13:29.840 --> 13:31.200]  Wearing a traditional North Korean suit.
[13:31.380 --> 13:36.960]  And standing in front of a blackboard on which it read, No sanctions with a smiley face.
[13:37.560 --> 13:42.900]  Hey, you know, obviously humor is not something I'm going to be able to successfully explain here.
[13:43.800 --> 13:49.520]  But it's clear that this was something that was spur of the moment.
[13:49.640 --> 13:50.520]  I don't know if he wrote it.
[13:50.780 --> 13:52.040]  I hadn't heard about this before.
[13:53.380 --> 13:59.200]  But writing no sanctions with a smiley face doesn't seem like a federal crime to me.
[13:59.280 --> 14:02.080]  It seems just like a bit of whimsy and mischief.
[14:03.560 --> 14:04.780]  Is it right?
[14:04.980 --> 14:07.460]  You know, it's a stupid question.
[14:08.500 --> 14:11.300]  Is it right to write a smiley face and say no sanctions?
[14:13.040 --> 14:13.820]  It's silly.
[14:14.680 --> 14:18.220]  That's the most that it possibly can be defined as.
[14:19.420 --> 14:27.420]  Castell goes on to say, The fact of the matter is Virgil Griffith hoped to come home to Singapore, which is where he lived, by the way, or elsewhere as a crypto hero.
[14:28.700 --> 14:30.380]  Apparently the worst thing could possibly be.
[14:30.380 --> 14:35.820]  To be admired and praised for standing up to government sanctions, for his fearlessness and nobility.
[14:36.800 --> 14:40.640]  He blasted Virgil's history of cooperation with the government.
[14:43.460 --> 14:48.220]  He's blasting Virgil's history of cooperation with our government.
[14:48.460 --> 14:49.800]  Look how fast they sell you out.
[14:49.900 --> 14:51.060]  What the hell?
[14:52.480 --> 14:55.580]  Castell, both before and after his trip to Pyongyang.
[14:56.880 --> 15:00.400]  Which the defense rightfully held up as evidence of his good nature.
[15:01.120 --> 15:03.620]  But Judge Castell called it narcissism.
[15:03.900 --> 15:09.080]  This guy is willing to play both sides of the street as long as he is a center of attention.
[15:10.260 --> 15:11.160]  Castell said.
[15:11.660 --> 15:15.640]  To a room of people that were hanging on to his every word.
[15:15.740 --> 15:17.000]  You're a damn federal judge.
[15:17.000 --> 15:18.200]  You're the center of attention.
[15:18.200 --> 15:19.440]  You know what it feels like.
[15:19.580 --> 15:22.000]  It's not a crime to want attention.
[15:22.280 --> 15:23.740]  Okay, he's guilty of that.
[15:23.840 --> 15:24.960]  He was on a reality show.
[15:25.080 --> 15:27.760]  And I know that, you know, boosted his ego a bit once.
[15:28.480 --> 15:30.900]  And, you know, he figures things out.
[15:31.040 --> 15:33.680]  And when he does, he gets praised.
[15:33.840 --> 15:34.660]  And he likes the praise.
[15:34.880 --> 15:35.700]  That's not a crime.
[15:35.700 --> 15:38.060]  And to imply that it is.
[15:39.060 --> 15:43.640]  Simply because he was proud of what he was able to figure out.
[15:43.740 --> 15:46.760]  And he was willing to share it with the FBI.
[15:47.540 --> 15:48.480]  With the U.S.
[15:48.540 --> 15:48.840]  government.
[15:50.340 --> 15:52.420]  But this judge considers that a bad thing.
[15:53.100 --> 15:54.940]  No, you just want to be the center of attention.
[15:56.020 --> 16:01.460]  Obviously, you want Kim Jong-un to be the winner in all this.
[16:01.460 --> 16:03.420]  What is this based on?
[16:03.880 --> 16:04.960]  It's fantasy.
[16:05.320 --> 16:05.780]  It's fiction.
[16:07.940 --> 16:16.600]  Both the judge and the prosecution, get this, referenced the ongoing war in Ukraine, as well as the U.S.
[16:16.660 --> 16:25.160]  government's use of sanctions against Russia to justify the need for a harsh sentence to prevent future violations of U.S.
[16:25.600 --> 16:25.600]  sanctions.
[16:26.900 --> 16:45.660]  How dare you imply that Virgil would ever, ever take the side of Russia against Ukraine and basically help people get slaughtered and help in the invasion of powerless countries next to superpowers?
[16:45.660 --> 16:46.040]  No.
[16:46.380 --> 16:47.460]  That is not who he is.
[16:47.460 --> 16:53.060]  But implying that with these words is so damn offensive.
[16:56.970 --> 17:02.810]  I'd like to now go over to the other story that is a little bit more fair from the Daily Beast.
[17:05.470 --> 17:07.410]  At a federal court in New York City, U.S.
[17:07.910 --> 17:13.250]  District Judge P. Kevin Castell handed down the stiff five-year sentence.
[17:13.550 --> 17:15.070]  Yeah, it's a stiff sentence.
[17:15.070 --> 17:17.090]  It's not a minimal sentence.
[17:17.710 --> 17:26.430]  It's a stiff sentence, as well as a $100,000 fine marking an end to an FBI investigation that at times seemed like a heavy-handed crackdown.
[17:26.930 --> 17:27.710]  Thank you.
[17:28.570 --> 17:30.250]  You won't get that from the mass media.
[17:30.950 --> 17:44.470]  To North Korea watchers aware of the lengths that Kim Jong-un's henchmen will go to learn about cryptocurrency and blockchain in order to skirt sanctions and boost the country's nuclear weapons program, the spread of knowledge on cryptocurrency seems dangerous.
[17:45.950 --> 17:48.030]  Yeah, the spread of knowledge is always dangerous.
[17:48.270 --> 17:49.470]  This is something we know.
[17:49.590 --> 17:51.150]  We've been spreading knowledge for a good long time.
[17:51.690 --> 17:53.850]  And people are always trying to stop us from doing it.
[17:55.110 --> 17:57.250]  Because knowledge is power.
[17:57.830 --> 17:59.030]  And that can be dangerous.
[18:00.570 --> 18:05.010]  North Korea's obsession and dependency on cryptocurrency has no bounds.
[18:05.470 --> 18:10.510]  And they'll be quick to take advantage of a misjudgment made by otherwise smart and capable individuals.
[18:10.510 --> 18:16.810]  That's what Vikram Thekir, technical director at Symantec, told the Daily Beast.
[18:17.330 --> 18:24.930]  Under the bite of harsh international sanctions, North Korea has been hacking cryptocurrency-related entities for years to generate revenue for the regime.
[18:25.470 --> 18:27.610]  From 2019 to 2020 alone.
[18:27.830 --> 18:29.970]  This is before Virgil could have even helped.
[18:30.610 --> 18:38.510]  Kim's hackers stole $316.4 million worth of virtual assets to fund North Korea's weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missile programs.
[18:38.570 --> 18:40.050]  It's according to a United Nations investigation.
[18:40.330 --> 18:41.910]  And, you know, maybe they used the money for something else, too.
[18:41.930 --> 18:45.110]  I don't know if it's necessarily just used for the evil things.
[18:45.210 --> 18:48.170]  But the point is, the sanctions are there for a reason.
[18:48.290 --> 18:48.990]  We all know that.
[18:50.130 --> 19:01.070]  Kimberly Jane Ravener, federal prosecutor with the Southern District of New York, said Virgil's actions, is, quote, struck at the heart of the United States sanctions regime, unquote.
[19:02.230 --> 19:10.230]  And pointed out several text messages where Virgil made clear his intention was to teach North Korea how to dodge restrictions.
[19:10.410 --> 19:12.370]  Again, show me the text messages.
[19:12.650 --> 19:14.770]  Because I bet they don't say that.
[19:15.410 --> 19:21.670]  According to his lawyers, after his North Korean speaking engagement, Virgil actually went straight to the U.S.
[19:21.730 --> 19:27.330]  Embassy in Singapore, where he was residing at the time, to tell them all about the experience.
[19:28.010 --> 19:29.770]  Can't really get more open than that.
[19:30.110 --> 19:35.050]  He also chose to meet with the FBI, without a lawyer, in New York.
[19:35.390 --> 19:36.310]  I was there.
[19:37.090 --> 19:39.270]  Well, I wasn't at the FBI meeting.
[19:39.270 --> 19:42.770]  I was there in New York, urging him to get a lawyer before he went there.
[19:44.630 --> 19:45.930]  And that was a big mistake.
[19:46.510 --> 19:48.510]  Trusting the FBI was a huge mistake.
[19:48.630 --> 19:55.110]  And anyone out there, anyone out there who ever gets a call from the FBI saying, we just want to talk to you, do not trust them.
[19:55.330 --> 19:58.530]  This is proof right now, that you cannot trust them.
[19:58.770 --> 20:04.050]  They will tell you, oh yeah, nothing's no problem at all, and thank you for being honest with us, and please tell us more.
[20:04.850 --> 20:10.610]  And then a few months later, they'll arrest you at an airport, when you're trying to visit your family on Thanksgiving.
[20:11.610 --> 20:12.730]  They'll make things up.
[20:13.950 --> 20:16.210]  Go with a lawyer, or don't go at all.
[20:17.390 --> 20:27.030]  The arrest immediately generated criticism, as the exceedingly eccentric and devoted community of cryptocurrency enthusiasts cast their prosecution as a crackdown on free speech.
[20:27.530 --> 20:29.470]  We are exceedingly eccentric, I guess.
[20:31.070 --> 20:34.730]  Meanwhile, the federal government played right into that, by shrouding the case in secrecy.
[20:34.910 --> 20:47.370]  So many court files were kept sealed, that journalist Matthew Russell Lee, who runs the publication Inner City Press, asked the judge to reconsider, in a letter that noted, the ceilings and withholding here are unacceptable, and go beyond those requested,
[20:47.530 --> 20:54.130]  even in the Central Intelligence Agency trial, of accused WikiLeaks leaker, Joshua Schult.
[20:55.530 --> 21:07.770]  During his chats with FBI agents, Virgil came clean, and offered to help the feds explore his North Korean contacts and activities, according to a source close to Virgil.
[21:08.310 --> 21:16.570]  The source described, at length, his willingness to cooperate with the American intelligence agencies, and the potential to become something of a spy asset.
[21:17.850 --> 21:21.890]  Those hopes were dashed, obviously, when they pounced on him.
[21:24.730 --> 21:38.070]  His defense team also noted that in similar cases, where people visited sanctioned countries to speak at business and academic conferences, Americans typically got off with a cautionary letter from the Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control.
[21:38.950 --> 21:53.130]  But federal prosecutors countered that Virgil did more than appear as a guest for a single event, citing his months-long conversations with co-conspirators, where he detailed his willingness to help the brutal North Korean regime.
[21:53.310 --> 21:54.830]  Well, who are these co-conspirators?
[21:55.750 --> 21:56.530]  Am I one?
[21:56.590 --> 21:57.350]  Because I've talked to them.
[21:57.830 --> 22:08.430]  And, you know, theoretically, you know, you say, well, I wonder if this would work if this particular chain of events was followed.
[22:08.830 --> 22:10.470]  Is the system that insecure?
[22:12.530 --> 22:14.870]  That's absolutely how conversations go.
[22:15.010 --> 22:16.310]  It doesn't make people co-conspirators.
[22:16.470 --> 22:17.690]  It makes people co-thinkers.
[22:18.590 --> 22:29.930]  In one text message, Virgil explained the value of setting up a computer node in North Korea that would allow the country to take part in the computer network that processes transactions of the digital currency, Ethereum.
[22:29.930 --> 22:34.970]  It'll make it possible to avoid sanctions on money transfers, he wrote in another text.
[22:35.190 --> 22:37.790]  Boy, that sounds like something you might want to look at.
[22:38.650 --> 22:41.510]  That's how these flaws are found.
[22:41.870 --> 22:44.490]  It could cause all kinds of problems.
[22:45.530 --> 22:48.010]  But, no, we don't want to read it that way.
[22:48.070 --> 22:56.310]  We want to read it as some James Bond villain who just wants to cause harm to his country, which he doesn't even live in.
[22:56.590 --> 22:59.230]  Boy, what a hateful, horrible person he must be.
[23:01.650 --> 23:11.010]  And, um, Judge Castell continued on his, um, on his rant against Virgil saying, you have to look at the text messages, which I want to do.
[23:11.550 --> 23:12.070]  Release them.
[23:12.170 --> 23:12.670]  I'd like to see them.
[23:13.030 --> 23:15.270]  Uh, he has to do a lot of work on himself.
[23:16.510 --> 23:16.830]  Yeah.
[23:18.610 --> 23:21.610]  All right, well, you know, that's the situation.
[23:22.950 --> 23:26.570]  Alex, I assume I'm allowed to criticize a federal judge on the air, but I don't know anymore.
[23:26.710 --> 23:30.430]  You know, for the last few years, we've all been kept on a short leash.
[23:30.690 --> 23:32.830]  You know, we didn't want to do anything that could hurt Virgil.
[23:33.010 --> 23:34.990]  I've not talked to Virgil in all this time.
[23:36.470 --> 23:43.910]  And, um, you know, we've been advised by his legal team to not say or do anything to avoid pissing off the judge.
[23:43.910 --> 23:48.970]  I hope it's time where we can finally speak honestly because that's what I've been doing the last few minutes.
[23:50.450 --> 23:57.150]  And I'm fed up with being told that, you know, we have to be careful and it could get much worse.
[23:57.870 --> 23:58.750]  It's worse.
[23:59.030 --> 24:01.010]  It can't really get much worse than this.
[24:01.190 --> 24:02.150]  He should be out.
[24:02.230 --> 24:04.130]  He should be in academia.
[24:04.130 --> 24:05.530]  He should be teaching people.
[24:05.630 --> 24:06.690]  He should be living his life.
[24:07.110 --> 24:15.530]  This is tantamount to torture, barbaric conditions, and I'm just ashamed to be in any way a part of a system like that.
[24:18.170 --> 24:29.390]  Well, let me chime in here and respond to quite a few of the things that you said and let me first say that I agree with that last statement.
[24:30.030 --> 24:49.850]  I think Virgil, even though he pleaded to this crime, has been sufficiently punished, sufficiently deterred and I think that what has happened to him has sufficiently deterred any others from engaging even in activity that barely resembles what Virgil did.
[24:50.130 --> 25:03.030]  You know, this is a very clear warning shot to researchers, to scientists, to academics all around the world about being extremely careful with the people with whom, about the people with whom you collaborate.
[25:04.070 --> 25:22.630]  I do want to say with respect to the criticism of federal judges, now, I'm a member of the bar, I'm a member of the bar of the Southern District of New York and also was working on behalf of Virgil with some of the defense team since last summer.
[25:23.010 --> 25:39.270]  I was not counsel of record, neither was my firm, but we had been working in the background and so, for that reason, I want to say quite clearly that I don't join in your criticism of Judge Castell or the federal judiciary.
[25:39.270 --> 25:42.910]  These are people in front of whom we have to continually stand up.
[25:42.990 --> 25:49.410]  So I'm sure that you will understand when I separate myself from your personal opinions of the judge.
[25:49.530 --> 25:49.910]  Of course.
[25:50.150 --> 25:50.690]  That being said...
[25:50.690 --> 25:52.230]  But you don't have to praise him either.
[25:53.370 --> 25:54.910]  I'm not going to praise him either.
[25:55.110 --> 26:02.410]  I've had quite a few matters in front of Judge Castell and he's certainly a tough but extraordinarily smart judge as well.
[26:03.010 --> 26:04.550]  I will say this though.
[26:04.670 --> 26:16.190]  With regard to the sentence of 63 months, the plea agreement established, I believe it was 63 to 78 months was the range and the government here was really, really going for the jugular.
[26:16.490 --> 26:19.490]  They wanted a higher sentence than they got yesterday.
[26:20.130 --> 26:21.970]  And I was in the courtroom.
[26:22.310 --> 26:25.510]  I took the train up actually from D.C.
[26:25.830 --> 26:45.570]  yesterday morning and despite some Amtrak snafus that we can discuss perhaps on overtime later tonight, Amtrak snafus and then the what would look like a terrorist attack in Brooklyn, I did miss about the first 10 minutes of the hearing and then popped in and was there.
[26:46.070 --> 26:50.290]  But it was very, very clear that the government was going for a higher sentence.
[26:50.290 --> 26:55.210]  That was clear from their submission with respect to sentencing, their sentencing memorandum.
[26:55.210 --> 27:03.670]  they were going for 78 months or higher and they were going for a fine of not $100,000, a million dollars that they wanted to find at the top of the spectrum here.
[27:04.370 --> 27:18.290]  And so, you know, as Judge Castell was reading out his reasoning and identifying the materials that he relied on in meeting out the sentence to Virgil, it was pretty harsh.
[27:18.290 --> 27:25.510]  and we were all expecting possibly an upwards departure, something that might have been higher than 78 months.
[27:26.230 --> 27:37.450]  And when he read out 63 months, I have to say, given the harsh treatment that Virgil had received in the minutes prior to that, it was a bit of a relief.
[27:38.290 --> 27:48.530]  But on the other hand, the defense team, you know, that was Council of Record and everybody that was there, myself included, were very disappointed that there wasn't a downward departure.
[27:48.790 --> 27:59.850]  If you read the memorandum submitted on behalf of Virgil, we were asking for, I think it was 28 months or 24 months, something like that, whatever was in the memorandum.
[28:00.630 --> 28:06.950]  So, the judge stuck very clearly to the parameters of 63 to 78 months.
[28:07.550 --> 28:22.090]  There is a reason for that as well because the, I believe the agreement had some kind of term about, you know, they're not being really a right to an appeal if the sentence was within those parameters.
[28:22.350 --> 28:29.530]  If it went higher than that, I believe Virgil may have had some right to appeal the sentence component, but here it doesn't look like it.
[28:29.610 --> 28:43.150]  But a couple of things have factored into this that Judge Castell had identified during his monologue about Virgil before he muted up the sentence were under the bail revocation that happened last summer.
[28:43.790 --> 28:54.250]  That did not factor into the equation very well for Virgil at all, as well as the fact that he pleaded guilty to the crime right on the eve of trial.
[28:54.470 --> 29:00.050]  You know, you get some points credits under the federal sentencing guidelines.
[29:00.050 --> 29:13.510]  I think you lose two points for pleading to the crime, but I don't think the judge appreciated it and the prosecution brought it up that he had done this on the eve of trial, essentially after litigating the case.
[29:14.390 --> 29:30.590]  I think that with respect to the cooperation issue there, that was really disheartening for me to hear Virgil's cooperation and the fact that he self-reported to the embassy being used against him.
[29:30.870 --> 29:35.390]  And it goes to show you that the prosecution here was very adept.
[29:35.510 --> 29:36.370]  They're very smart lawyers.
[29:36.370 --> 29:37.150]  They're very good.
[29:37.330 --> 29:49.810]  They're able to take that information and use it in a context together with text messages and other activities of Virgil to make it look like it wasn't innocent, that it wasn't something for which he should be given some credit.
[29:50.010 --> 29:51.350]  And they did that effectively.
[29:53.270 --> 30:11.110]  However, in most cases where people go go to other countries as you noted Emmanuel and as the defense brought up during their argument, most people that go to other countries and speak to, let's say, Iran or others, especially in an academic setting, and they come back and self-report and say,
[30:11.210 --> 30:14.210]  oh my goodness, I shouldn't have done that, they usually get a cautionary letter.
[30:14.950 --> 30:16.330]  That was brought up.
[30:16.470 --> 30:17.630]  This was...
[30:17.630 --> 30:19.650]  And Virgil did in fact self-report.
[30:20.290 --> 30:22.410]  He didn't hide this either.
[30:22.790 --> 30:28.230]  I mean, the fact that the visa wasn't in his passport, I think, was also brought up.
[30:28.750 --> 30:30.050]  They don't put it in your passport.
[30:30.230 --> 30:31.790]  I've been there, they don't put it in your passport.
[30:32.570 --> 30:38.710]  Number one, they don't put it in your passport, but number two, he wasn't trying to hide this, if I recall correctly, he posted it on Twitter.
[30:39.750 --> 30:40.650]  Isn't that crazy?
[30:40.670 --> 30:41.110]  Absolutely.
[30:41.370 --> 30:43.230]  No, everybody knew this.
[30:43.390 --> 30:44.950]  It wasn't a secret at all.
[30:45.510 --> 30:46.650]  I know, I know.
[30:47.030 --> 30:50.030]  You did mention this issue of educating people, right?
[30:50.150 --> 30:52.410]  People in quotes here around air quotes.
[30:52.530 --> 30:55.270]  Now, that certainly was an odd word that stuck out in my mind, too.
[30:55.350 --> 31:04.250]  And I think the reason why Judge Castell chose the word people is because of the way in which the prosecution had framed their case.
[31:04.430 --> 31:12.670]  This was rather interesting because there was a stipulation that the government engaged in during the lead-up to trial.
[31:13.130 --> 31:21.450]  And that stipulation was that what Virgil said at the conference did not give North Korea any additional capabilities.
[31:21.450 --> 31:22.710]  than they already had.
[31:22.990 --> 31:23.070]  Absolutely.
[31:23.150 --> 31:24.450]  That's the government of North Korea.
[31:24.590 --> 31:29.410]  That's a very, very important stipulation, I think, to recall in the context of this case.
[31:29.730 --> 31:34.390]  Because that means that Virgil didn't teach the country of North Korea anything at all.
[31:34.510 --> 31:42.270]  It was the government's theory that there were certain individuals, certain people in the audience that benefited from the things that he said at the conference.
[31:42.510 --> 31:45.190]  Not the country itself, but certain people.
[31:45.370 --> 31:49.090]  And I think that's probably why Judge Castell chose the term people.
[31:49.330 --> 31:55.130]  But couldn't those people have gotten that same information from other people in their country that already knew the answers?
[31:56.730 --> 32:03.090]  Possibly, but that's, I think, a distinction without a difference for our present purposes, unfortunately.
[32:05.110 --> 32:13.510]  One thing that also stuck out in my mind here, too, was the procedure at the sentencing hearing itself.
[32:14.270 --> 32:21.150]  There is no set prescription for how these things work, and different courts and different judges will do it in different ways.
[32:21.310 --> 32:25.530]  But the order here was that the government was able to speak first.
[32:25.710 --> 32:32.490]  They had the right to make their case with regard and contest the government's sentencing memorandum, the government's positions.
[32:33.250 --> 32:42.650]  At the conclusion of the government's, I'm sorry, at the conclusion of the defense's statement, that was when Judge Castell gave Virgil the opportunity to speak.
[32:43.150 --> 32:50.510]  And I will tell you this, Judge Castell listened and hung on to every single word that Virgil said.
[32:50.510 --> 32:55.270]  He listened more astutely to Virgil than anybody else in that courtroom.
[32:55.410 --> 33:10.170]  And he even had interrupted Virgil at the outset of his statement and asked him to clarify what exactly it was that he was saying in his first sentence because he wanted to make sure he understood it and then he even read back some of his words be in his sentencing pronouncement.
[33:10.710 --> 33:14.290]  And I thought that was a good thing.
[33:14.330 --> 33:16.350]  You want a judge to listen to the defendant.
[33:16.550 --> 33:23.030]  But the procedure here was defense first, then the defendant, Virgil, got to speak, and then the government got to go.
[33:23.170 --> 33:26.510]  And that means that the government really had the last word here.
[33:26.630 --> 33:34.890]  And the government at that point had the opportunity then to speak to the points that Virgil spoke about when he was talking to the judge.
[33:35.010 --> 33:41.990]  And in a lot of cases, as I understand it, in a lot of different courts, it's the defendant who usually gets the last word.
[33:42.150 --> 33:44.850]  But there's no set prescription on how these things work.
[33:44.910 --> 33:49.350]  But I think it's just a matter of course, it's the defendant's liberty at stake here.
[33:50.090 --> 33:54.810]  And I think it just makes more sense to have the defendant speak last.
[34:02.350 --> 34:15.210]  It was brought up in the government's case that certain representatives of Virgil's had gone onto the radio and were trying to drum up support for his cause.
[34:15.430 --> 34:16.010]  Okay, hang on.
[34:16.090 --> 34:17.570]  So obviously they're talking about us.
[34:17.930 --> 34:20.170]  And we're representatives of...
[34:20.170 --> 34:21.370]  See, this is what I mean.
[34:21.650 --> 34:27.250]  They distort, they make things up, and they paint a picture which is completely untrue.
[34:27.410 --> 34:28.670]  We're not representatives
[34:32.130 --> 34:39.570]  a friend of ours, but to make it sound like he had us do his bidding, which is what I take from this statement, that's completely inaccurate.
[34:40.350 --> 34:46.010]  Well, I don't think it's too inaccurate because Virgil was also my client, still is my client.
[34:46.030 --> 34:48.050]  But did he tell you what to say on the radio?
[34:48.970 --> 34:51.950]  No, he of course didn't give me direction of what to say on the radio.
[34:52.230 --> 34:57.830]  He sure didn't tell me because I haven't talked to him since 2019, so he didn't tell me what to say.
[34:58.370 --> 35:02.310]  And, you know, I've been pretty much the most outspoken one here as far as this was.
[35:02.870 --> 35:10.810]  So, you know, just painting that picture in a courtroom, I think, is very, very unfair and just not accurate.
[35:11.370 --> 35:13.170]  Well, I just don't see how it's relevant.
[35:13.410 --> 35:18.510]  I mean, I don't take any offense to the characterization of me being representative.
[35:18.510 --> 35:19.350]  Why did they bring it up?
[35:19.410 --> 35:20.070]  They brought it up.
[35:20.330 --> 35:22.930]  They brought it up to gain an advantage of some sort, right?
[35:23.310 --> 35:30.950]  They brought it up to gain an advantage to show that, you know, Virgil had, was trying to use the media to drum up support.
[35:31.370 --> 35:43.210]  They had this notion in their sentencing memorandum that he was trying to use this case as a cause celeb to, you know, to promote himself as a form of self-promotion.
[35:43.430 --> 35:46.390]  They seemed to bring it up in that type of context.
[35:46.610 --> 35:53.790]  You know, there were podcasts, there were radios, you know, his representatives were out there, you know, banging the drum and trying to get supporters.
[35:53.910 --> 36:00.110]  I mean, it was, we were on this radio station several times talking about this case.
[36:00.250 --> 36:08.730]  You had opined for, I recall, maybe 40 minutes after Virgil pleaded guilty on 27th of September, 2021.
[36:09.030 --> 36:09.370]  I'm sorry.
[36:11.210 --> 36:18.510]  And we were asking for nothing other than people to reach out and write support letters for Virgil.
[36:18.610 --> 36:19.330]  That's what we were doing.
[36:19.330 --> 36:39.130]  We were asking people that had some contact with him that knew him to contact us and tell us in a support letter about how Virgil may have helped you, how he may have contributed to your charity, contributed to your education, done something helpful, because all of that helps the court form a better and richer picture of the defendant.
[36:39.130 --> 36:39.790]  Except it didn't.
[36:40.590 --> 36:42.790]  He didn't pay attention to any of those letters.
[36:43.190 --> 36:44.670]  Not one of them made a bit of difference.
[36:45.210 --> 36:50.870]  What I don't like is the fact that what we were doing was not ill-intentioned in any way.
[36:51.030 --> 37:02.570]  We were trying to generate a more full and rich picture of who Virgil is as a person so that he could be properly sentenced before the judge so that justice could be served.
[37:02.790 --> 37:16.170]  And taking that kind of action, that kind of innocent activity, where we're out asking for support for somebody whose liberty is imminently to be taken away for a number of years and whose liberty had been taken away since last summer.
[37:16.350 --> 37:18.350]  And we're out there speaking on his behalf.
[37:18.630 --> 37:25.250]  That should not be something that comes up in the context of a negative characteristic, something for which he should be sent.
[37:25.450 --> 37:28.530]  You know, but frankly, it wasn't something that factored into at all.
[37:28.530 --> 37:32.650]  I think it was because look at what Judge Castile said.
[37:32.850 --> 37:35.610]  He said that Virgil wants to be the center of attention.
[37:35.610 --> 37:36.930]  He wants to be some kind of a hero.
[37:37.190 --> 37:44.970]  And that factors in directly with him having his representatives basically paint them in a good light on the radio.
[37:45.230 --> 37:46.090]  It's nonsense.
[37:46.290 --> 37:47.370]  It's not accurate.
[37:47.370 --> 37:48.010]  It's false.
[37:48.950 --> 37:52.250]  Let's give some other people on the show a chance to weigh in.
[37:52.410 --> 37:53.370]  Kyle, I know you had something to say.
[37:54.750 --> 38:06.250]  Well, oh gosh, there's a lot of different responses I had just listening to all of the coverage you were citing and your kind of reaction personally.
[38:07.950 --> 38:16.010]  I just I don't think that this has fixed things quite as much as the government might think it has.
[38:16.210 --> 38:28.270]  I don't think that you know the speaking of sanctions in general like the country of North Korea has been evading them for quite some time and well before the advent of cryptocurrency.
[38:28.270 --> 39:08.410]  And I think this idea that future crimes that and this is sort of a core tenant of the criminal justice system or sham or whatever you know you want to think of it as in society it is about sort of preventing other further crime because these will be the consequences and And citing an ongoing war with a different adversary that did not... that preceded... that was after this activity,
[39:08.610 --> 39:27.030]  this speaking at an event, that I think seems like he's paid the cost and is going to pay the price for the possibility, the mere possibility that sanctions or someone will transfer technology in the future.
[39:27.030 --> 39:29.510]  And I mean, that's... I don't know.
[39:29.630 --> 39:33.330]  I mean, this isn't... this is someone who self-reported.
[39:33.390 --> 39:45.870]  This was not like a quid pro quo or like some kind of scheme of where he was being, you know, financed or for hire in some way.
[39:45.950 --> 39:47.750]  He was simply sharing ideas and stuff.
[39:47.870 --> 39:49.450]  So that kind of irks me.
[39:49.550 --> 39:53.170]  That bothers me a bit because I know that stuff is going to continue to go on.
[39:53.170 --> 40:01.750]  And ultimately, I think it seems like the government are like with the self-reporting stuff didn't need him.
[40:01.890 --> 40:11.250]  Maybe already knew what they wanted and or had their other... had other avenues to contain cryptocurrency.
[40:11.250 --> 40:32.150]  But I think the things that he was sharing, like having a server hosting there, you know, I'm not saying, you know, that they should have been, you know, planting ideas with him and immediately like setting up some kind of sting or having him be... orchestrate something like on behalf of the government,
[40:32.330 --> 40:39.330]  on behalf of the US or intelligence or private security or other agencies.
[40:39.330 --> 40:45.550]  I just... I don't see that that was his intent.
[40:45.550 --> 40:54.690]  He was just saying like what he had observed and just so that he could be like cleared for having traveled and done it.
[40:54.690 --> 41:00.270]  And I think he had researched a little bit beforehand, before he had traveled.
[41:00.530 --> 41:20.170]  Like he was... from how I heard his story of traveling and making this talk, it seemed to me, my impression was that he had been on the up and up beforehand or, you know, afterward.
[41:21.570 --> 41:33.670]  And, and then of course, when he was traveling, visiting on the East coast, and then was intercepted, once they had a sort of a little bit different case than maybe he thought was going on.
[41:33.850 --> 41:34.710]  Give you an example.
[41:34.790 --> 41:35.410]  He asked me to go.
[41:35.630 --> 41:37.610]  You know, I don't know anything about cryptocurrency.
[41:37.610 --> 41:39.070]  I'm not in any way an expert.
[41:39.750 --> 41:42.070]  And, you know, this wasn't about that.
[41:42.190 --> 41:44.590]  This was about seeing a crazy place like North Korea.
[41:44.590 --> 41:46.010]  I'd already been to North Korea.
[41:46.190 --> 41:46.930]  Didn't need to go back.
[41:46.930 --> 41:47.530]  I've seen it.
[41:47.610 --> 41:50.890]  I get how crazy it is, but I do recommend it to people.
[41:51.210 --> 41:58.630]  And the whole like Trump spur of the moment ban of Americans being allowed to go to North Korea.
[41:58.970 --> 42:00.610]  It wasn't seen as a serious thing.
[42:00.730 --> 42:03.550]  I don't think anyone has been prosecuted for that up until this.
[42:04.230 --> 42:09.650]  And, you know, it didn't seem like the kind of thing that anybody was really going to take that seriously.
[42:10.390 --> 42:17.730]  And going to a conference as an excuse to go to North Korea, answering a few rudimentary questions, again, didn't seem like a big deal.
[42:17.870 --> 42:18.090]  I know.
[42:18.190 --> 42:25.710]  I talked to him at the time, and the only thing I was worried about was that he might say something in North Korea that would get him in trouble over there.
[42:25.970 --> 42:31.450]  Never thought for a second that the people he had to worry about were the people in this country.
[42:32.190 --> 42:35.130]  That really... that's a very sobering thing for me to realize.
[42:35.130 --> 42:50.410]  Yeah, a lot of backward stuff, like our counterintuitive things that just seemed just to be the way that wove a narrative other than the sort of honest and...
[42:53.130 --> 42:54.970]  I don't know, just brave.
[42:55.170 --> 42:57.770]  I mean, it's brave to make that trip in the first place.
[42:57.830 --> 42:59.770]  And I don't think I would touch it with a 10-foot pole.
[42:59.930 --> 43:02.590]  I think that's a different decision for different people.
[43:02.590 --> 43:06.630]  I think the concerns about, like, how you go about doing that kind of travel.
[43:07.090 --> 43:09.330]  But it's not unheard of for people to travel there.
[43:10.230 --> 43:11.030]  Even journalists.
[43:11.310 --> 43:11.610]  Of course.
[43:11.770 --> 43:15.030]  But so much is going on there with people who have visited.
[43:15.310 --> 43:19.910]  And I don't think it would be... I don't think it was a wise decision.
[43:19.910 --> 43:22.730]  I mean, I don't have the kind of options.
[43:22.950 --> 43:25.890]  And personally, it wouldn't have been my decision.
[43:25.890 --> 43:33.170]  But just saying that, like, you're open to something like that shouldn't be a suspicious thing.
[43:33.310 --> 43:42.090]  And it just seemed like at every step, even being open and researching it, he was reframed to fit something that served other purposes.
[43:42.270 --> 43:43.250]  That has been established.
[43:43.250 --> 43:44.110]  He made a mistake.
[43:44.310 --> 43:45.470]  It was bad judgment.
[43:45.710 --> 43:48.490]  How much do you make somebody suffer for that mistake?
[43:48.630 --> 43:49.810]  That is really what the question is.
[43:50.250 --> 43:51.330]  Robin Gila, floor is yours.
[43:53.610 --> 44:05.390]  Yeah, so if the judge said that Virgil sent representatives, plural, to go talk him up on the radio, I mean, we've only got one Alex and nobody else was working in any way on this case.
[44:05.590 --> 44:07.430]  So, you know, that's already incorrect.
[44:08.530 --> 44:18.190]  But also, and I have not passed the bar, but I know a little bit, I do not speak for anyone but myself when I say this.
[44:18.950 --> 44:21.150]  I think this verdict is full of crap.
[44:21.330 --> 44:27.130]  And I think this, a great wrong has been done.
[44:28.470 --> 44:37.030]  As we've discussed on this program time and again, he was over there not working for an enemy government to do all sorts of high-level crypto stuff.
[44:37.030 --> 44:42.670]  He was at an event for enthusiasts, you know, kicking around Wikipedia-level knowledge of this stuff.
[44:42.850 --> 44:45.390]  They did not need Virgil Griffith for that information.
[44:45.590 --> 44:46.910]  People had that information.
[44:46.910 --> 44:57.070]  People had access to that information, and it was certainly nothing beyond where they already were on an organizational level, on a governmental level, with this technology.
[44:57.070 --> 45:14.770]  So what we are seeing, I believe, is something that we are all too familiar with in the hacker community, which is somebody gets set up by a prosecution into just a big example of what happens when you do something naughty, when you go against the rules,
[45:14.970 --> 45:16.150]  when you hack.
[45:17.010 --> 45:22.570]  And I think, you know, we've been seeing this for generations now in the hacker world.
[45:22.730 --> 45:30.490]  We have seen people get sentenced ridiculous amounts of time for crimes which, you know, shouldn't perhaps have even been crimes in the first place.
[45:30.490 --> 45:49.970]  And this is affecting somebody who does not deserve this, and I'm looking into the facility, he's in MDC Brooklyn, and even just the visitation situation over there is extremely restrictive, even for a federal prison, as I understand it.
[45:49.970 --> 46:07.170]  And it does not paint a good picture of his future in this facility, so I want to know from Alex, what do you feel about the chances of him being moved somewhere else from where he is?
[46:07.470 --> 46:11.950]  Well, he will be moved somewhere else, and hopefully in short order.
[46:11.950 --> 46:16.070]  The MDC is essentially a holding facility for people pending trial.
[46:16.610 --> 46:26.630]  Once you have been sentenced, or you've been acquitted, you leave the MDC, and it is a pretty terrible place, I will tell you.
[46:28.030 --> 46:35.670]  You know, I can't obviously go into things that Virgil has said to me directly, but some of the stories are absolutely horrendous.
[46:36.710 --> 46:47.510]  And I've been there numerous times, and it's visiting Virgil, and on one occasion, they turned away a colleague of mine, even though he was on the cleared list.
[46:47.610 --> 46:54.330]  On another occasion, I showed up there, cleared the whole morning, whatever, and the place was on lockdown.
[46:54.530 --> 46:58.250]  And they said, nope, can't come in on lockdown, and that just happens.
[46:58.490 --> 47:02.490]  I mean, it becomes very difficult sometimes to get in touch with your clients.
[47:02.490 --> 47:13.190]  And while, and look, it's no secret now, but, you know, Virgil had contracted coronavirus last year, and was on a pretty severe lockdown.
[47:13.370 --> 47:20.110]  And because the coronavirus was running rampant through the facility, everybody was on lockdown for an extended period of time.
[47:20.290 --> 47:25.130]  And it was really horrendous conditions for him to endure.
[47:26.130 --> 47:31.230]  He will be transferred to a new facility, though, to answer your question, Rob.
[47:31.230 --> 47:36.310]  And Judge Castell did agree to make the recommendation for Allenwood in Pennsylvania.
[47:36.510 --> 47:40.970]  That carries with it a great deal of weight, especially since Virgil has family connections over there.
[47:41.230 --> 47:47.030]  In all likelihood, within a month, and fingers crossed, he will be transferred there.
[47:47.390 --> 48:00.630]  Because it's Allenwood, my understanding in discussing with others who are more familiar with this type of situation than I am, is that because it doesn't involve a flight, it doesn't involve transferring through other facilities, and it's just a few hours away,
[48:00.810 --> 48:10.390]  and accessible through a bus, or via a bus, Virgil could be on his way over to Allenwood in a short period of time.
[48:10.390 --> 48:14.510]  Maybe within a week, maybe two weeks, but very certainly, hopefully within a month.
[48:14.510 --> 48:17.770]  And I think the sooner that he leaves MDC, the better.
[48:18.490 --> 48:24.470]  And Allenwood, I think, would be a good place for him, too, because this is a pretty bad sentence.
[48:24.550 --> 48:25.970]  It's a long sentence.
[48:26.150 --> 48:26.850]  It's 63 months.
[48:27.010 --> 48:27.370]  It's harsh.
[48:29.270 --> 48:33.290]  In federal prison, you generally will do about 85% of that time.
[48:33.470 --> 48:42.050]  However, there are other therapies and programs that you can take advantage of during your sentence that can help you reduce that sentence even further.
[48:42.350 --> 48:51.950]  So, if he takes advantage of all of those things that are available to him, hopefully at Allenwood, I think it's possible he might be able to get his sentence further reduced.
[48:52.230 --> 48:57.570]  And I think the sooner we get Virgil out of there, the sooner he can begin to contribute back to society.
[48:57.570 --> 49:05.990]  This is a person that Judge Castile himself acknowledged during sentencing has a great deal to give back to the world, a great deal of skills.
[49:05.990 --> 49:15.330]  And I think somebody who not only has contributed, in my opinion, a tremendous amount to others, to our community, but who also has tremendous potential.
[49:15.330 --> 49:22.030]  This is not going to be the defining moment of Virgil's life if he has any say about it.
[49:25.770 --> 49:26.610]  Well said.
[49:26.810 --> 49:32.610]  And just to be clear, Virgil pled guilty, so the verdict was pretty much decided at that point.
[49:32.770 --> 49:36.090]  It's the sentencing that seems overly harsh.
[49:36.090 --> 49:46.950]  And as to what you just said, Alex, you know, I really, I wish the judge had had a conversation, like a 20-minute, half-hour conversation with Virgil in his chambers.
[49:47.030 --> 49:48.050]  He would have gotten to know him.
[49:48.210 --> 49:51.730]  He would have gotten to understand a little better who it was he was dealing with.
[49:51.870 --> 49:52.510]  We know him.
[49:52.590 --> 49:53.770]  We know he's a unique individual.
[49:53.770 --> 49:59.330]  We know his quirks and things that you just cannot sum up on paper.
[49:59.850 --> 50:02.550]  But you can make someone look really, really bad.
[50:02.730 --> 50:13.750]  And that is what has happened here, and why there is so little sympathy for Virgil, because people read what is said in newspapers, on the Associated Press.
[50:14.030 --> 50:22.710]  And if they get particular facts wrong, like the story I read, where they got basically the opening sentence wrong, that's how you're going to judge the person.
[50:23.130 --> 50:25.450]  And it's not fair.
[50:25.570 --> 50:30.650]  When somebody is accused of spying for North Korea, that's hard to come back from.
[50:31.130 --> 50:33.250]  And it doesn't matter that it isn't true.
[50:35.830 --> 50:36.870]  Gila, did you have anything?
[50:36.870 --> 50:42.870]  Well, I'm just, I'm overtaken by sadness in this whole thing.
[50:43.090 --> 51:04.950]  Sadness about feeling hopeless, in that what is there to say, what is there to do, the concept of the carceral system, and this whole sense of making him an example, in the hope of stopping people further from this sort of activity, whatever activity they've decided it was.
[51:06.910 --> 51:07.930]  I'm sad.
[51:08.330 --> 51:09.910]  I'm not even too angry yet.
[51:10.030 --> 51:10.690]  I'm just sad.
[51:11.090 --> 51:15.190]  And it's almost paralyzing sadness.
[51:15.470 --> 51:17.290]  And I've never even met Virgil.
[51:17.450 --> 51:18.130]  I'm just sad.
[51:18.850 --> 51:20.130]  And you know what?
[51:20.790 --> 51:25.870]  The person who would comfort you in this situation is Virgil himself.
[51:26.470 --> 51:30.810]  He would be the one out there telling you it's going to get better.
[51:31.190 --> 51:32.950]  He has that amazing ability.
[51:32.950 --> 51:34.910]  You know, he sent me a Christmas present.
[51:35.090 --> 51:35.830]  He was in prison.
[51:36.350 --> 51:40.530]  And he somehow was able to send me this really complex mathematical thing.
[51:42.110 --> 51:43.550]  Kyle, I think you can describe it better.
[51:43.710 --> 51:45.250]  I couldn't understand it, of course.
[51:45.470 --> 51:51.730]  But to take the time, and I know I wasn't the only one, to take the time to actually think of somebody when you're going through this hell.
[51:53.170 --> 52:03.850]  Yeah, he sent us a couple books, and a geode, or it's like a specific shape, a mathematical shape, and it doesn't stay upright.
[52:05.410 --> 52:07.110]  I don't know how else to describe it.
[52:07.150 --> 52:07.390]  Exactly.
[52:07.670 --> 52:10.930]  These are the kinds of things that he values.
[52:11.430 --> 52:12.370]  It's a puzzle.
[52:12.590 --> 52:14.970]  It's kind of a spectacle.
[52:15.410 --> 52:21.330]  And, you know, I couldn't even respond to him for fear of saying the wrong thing that might get him in more trouble.
[52:21.970 --> 52:24.970]  You know, I like to think at this stage, okay, it's done.
[52:25.150 --> 52:30.130]  I can finally, A, express myself, and B, hopefully talk to him and maybe see him in person.
[52:31.210 --> 52:33.790]  You know, it's the very least that I think I can do.
[52:36.590 --> 52:52.590]  Yeah, well, I think, you know, let's, yeah, let's keep our fingers crossed here that Virgil gets his assignment, goes over to Allenwood, gets out of the MDC, and begins, I think, a productive sentence over there.
[52:52.590 --> 53:06.650]  I have no doubt in my mind that he's going to be doing good things for other people, will be making the most of his time, and that, as I said before, I think he still has a great deal to give to this world and to give to our community, and I look forward to that.
[53:07.530 --> 53:08.390]  Yeah, absolutely.
[53:08.930 --> 53:13.150]  I cannot believe, well, I guess I can believe we took the entire hour to talk about this.
[53:13.250 --> 53:14.530]  It's an important case.
[53:15.730 --> 53:19.210]  We're going to talk about other things on Overtime in a few minutes over on YouTube.
[53:19.210 --> 53:24.390]  Check the link on the top of 2600.com or just go to YouTube channel 2600.
[53:24.830 --> 53:27.130]  The channel is called Channel 2600.
[53:27.570 --> 53:29.250]  We'll be on there at 8 o'clock.
[53:29.250 --> 53:33.310]  You can write to us, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[53:33.470 --> 53:34.210]  That's our email address.
[53:34.410 --> 53:38.430]  Give us your thoughts, opinions, whatever you feel like saying.
[53:38.710 --> 53:46.030]  And, of course, don't forget to support WBAI, because without this radio station, we couldn't even talk about this and reach people.
[53:46.350 --> 53:53.310]  Give a call to 212-209-2950, pledge whatever you can afford, and encourage other people to do the same.
[53:53.410 --> 53:57.290]  Or go and visit give2wbai.org.
[53:57.290 --> 54:00.050]  That's give2wbai.org.
[54:00.710 --> 54:05.030]  And you can pledge for all kinds of interesting premiums on that website.
[54:05.430 --> 54:11.610]  But having a voice like this in the middle of the FM dial, in the middle of New York City, it matters.
[54:12.090 --> 54:13.230]  It really matters.
[54:13.230 --> 54:15.510]  Just like so many things we talk about.
[54:16.290 --> 54:17.750]  And try to appreciate.
[54:18.190 --> 54:19.330]  They matter as well.
[54:20.210 --> 54:21.050]  So, all right.
[54:21.890 --> 54:25.690]  We'll see you over on Overtime, or we'll see you next week at 7 p.m.
[54:26.750 --> 54:27.350]  Good night, everybody.
[00:00.820 --> 00:13.260]  And welcome everybody on YouTube to Off the Hook Overtime, where we continue the conversation and maybe even take phone calls from our listeners.
[00:13.900 --> 00:14.980]  Did we make it to YouTube, Kyle?
[00:15.220 --> 00:16.920]  I'm still checking, but I am here.
[00:17.380 --> 00:18.420]  You're here in person.
[00:18.680 --> 00:19.040]  I'm in YouTube, yeah.
[00:19.040 --> 00:29.100]  I could have told you that, but since we don't have Rob and Gila tonight, they had a previous engagement they must be off to, we have to check this ourselves on our end.
[00:29.100 --> 00:30.560]  And I think we... Alex, you're on Skypland.
[00:31.180 --> 00:34.080]  You have a phone up to your ear, so maybe you can tell us as well.
[00:35.220 --> 00:36.900]  Yeah, I'm listening right now.
[00:37.060 --> 00:37.580]  Okay, good.
[00:37.900 --> 00:38.000]  We're on.
[00:38.000 --> 00:38.340]  We're on.
[00:38.460 --> 00:39.120]  That's awesome.
[00:39.700 --> 00:40.040]  Wow.
[00:40.280 --> 00:42.700]  I think our level...
[00:43.480 --> 00:46.340]  Your levels are messed up, because we only heard the first part of that sentence.
[00:46.720 --> 00:48.920]  I think our levels are a little high.
[00:49.120 --> 00:50.280]  They're high this week.
[00:50.580 --> 00:53.220]  Usually they're low on YouTube.
[00:54.280 --> 00:56.120]  Kyle, does that seem to make sense to you?
[00:56.320 --> 00:57.840]  Are they in fact high?
[00:57.940 --> 00:58.760]  Should I bring them down?
[00:59.860 --> 01:00.720]  Maybe a little bit.
[01:00.900 --> 01:01.100]  Okay.
[01:01.160 --> 01:03.560]  Maybe just a little bit, but it sounds great.
[01:03.760 --> 01:05.880]  It sounds like overtime.
[01:06.260 --> 01:06.600]  Okay.
[01:06.700 --> 01:07.880]  Well, people don't like them when we sound great.
[01:08.440 --> 01:09.960]  Well, we sound okay, you know.
[01:10.040 --> 01:11.360]  Yeah, we want to sound okay, not great.
[01:11.500 --> 01:12.220]  We sound like enough.
[01:12.940 --> 01:13.300]  Yeah.
[01:13.940 --> 01:15.340]  We always are enough.
[01:16.120 --> 01:18.600]  All right, that was quite a show.
[01:19.660 --> 01:22.600]  Alex, how much trouble am I in for bashing a federal judge?
[01:22.600 --> 01:26.100]  I mean, I just, you know, no disrespect intended.
[01:26.300 --> 01:31.640]  Well, maybe a little, but I just, you know, I feel like I've been bottled up and I can't say what's on my mind.
[01:31.640 --> 01:36.980]  And then you just hear things that aren't true coming from someone who you expect to get it right.
[01:38.020 --> 01:40.240]  And it's just too much to bear.
[01:40.780 --> 01:42.040]  I wouldn't be good in court.
[01:42.240 --> 01:46.940]  You know, I would be trying to say something that I guess I'm not allowed to say.
[01:48.380 --> 01:49.380]  Well, I don't know.
[01:49.620 --> 01:55.960]  I think, I think with some discipline, you'd probably, and I don't mean to insult you, but you'd probably make a pretty good lawyer-y.
[01:56.400 --> 01:58.360]  Well, yeah, shock therapy is very effective.
[01:58.360 --> 02:01.800]  And I do know that my behavior could be modified.
[02:02.580 --> 02:03.920]  Yeah, no doubt.
[02:04.220 --> 02:12.500]  I mean, look, we are, we live in that country where you can still speak your mind about any kind of federal official.
[02:13.580 --> 02:15.300]  And that's exactly what you did.
[02:15.300 --> 02:27.260]  And, and I think that, um, you know, as Jose Pagliari indicated in his article that, you know, what had happened is, is certainly subject to lots of different types of criticism.
[02:27.260 --> 02:43.440]  And, and let's not forget that during the, the dependency of Virgil's case, it had come out that certain bits of evidence that were collected through search warrants of his were being made accessible to the wider FBI.
[02:43.440 --> 02:45.500]  Yeah, what was that all about?
[02:46.160 --> 02:47.440]  That was never brought up.
[02:48.360 --> 02:57.880]  That, this is something that, um, unfortunately, when Virgil pleaded, uh, to this, this really was no longer an issue in his case.
[02:58.260 --> 03:15.020]  But if I recall correctly, the government did make the representation to the court that it would follow up with the court based on a wider investigation to determine the extent of the different types of evidence that were, uh, being accessed through this erroneously configured Palantir system.
[03:15.200 --> 03:27.840]  And I believe Palantir, again, uh, if I recall correctly, had indicated that this wasn't designed improperly, but had been, uh, configured improperly.
[03:28.680 --> 03:33.720]  But we don't know, I, to, to my knowledge, there hasn't been an update about this.
[03:33.880 --> 03:36.800]  It would be great to, to learn a bit more.
[03:36.920 --> 03:51.580]  And I, I think that, um, frankly, I think, I think it would be great if the court had inquired, uh, of the government, what was happening in that particular matter in that, in that issue in Virgil's matter, uh, before sentencing.
[03:52.580 --> 03:53.580]  Yeah, I agree.
[03:54.440 --> 04:02.260]  Um, maybe some other case will bring it up, but, uh, it just seemed like this case was designed to be a headline, to be a lesson.
[04:02.780 --> 04:05.780]  And, uh, it didn't matter, you know, about facts.
[04:05.920 --> 04:08.500]  They could just be, um, manipulated in various ways.
[04:09.140 --> 04:11.580]  Yeah, it took long enough to cook this up.
[04:11.760 --> 04:12.340]  It sure did.
[04:12.660 --> 04:12.860]  Yeah.
[04:13.180 --> 04:16.240]  A couple of years, get it looking just right.
[04:16.600 --> 04:17.600]  I mean, think about that.
[04:17.600 --> 04:25.300]  Um, this has been going on since late 2019, you know, Thanksgiving when, when they, you know, it just shows you the, the callousness of it.
[04:25.420 --> 04:28.660]  He's on his way from Singapore to visit his family on the East coast.
[04:29.160 --> 04:39.100]  And that's when they grab him, you know, uh, and, and, uh, after, after he's talked to them, after he's told them everything he knows and offered to help them, that's when they start making his life a living hell.
[04:39.260 --> 04:47.360]  And since that day in, in 2019, it's now 2022, three years of hell equals 10 months.
[04:47.840 --> 04:50.740]  In their eyes and another five years to go.
[04:51.060 --> 04:51.760]  It's crazy.
[04:52.660 --> 04:57.900]  Of course, you know, I know Virgil is going to make the most of it and I know he's going to be strong and inspirational.
[04:58.640 --> 05:03.680]  And, um, if anyone can get something positive out of what's ahead, it's him.
[05:03.680 --> 05:07.800]  Um, I'm just pissed off because, uh, you know, I want him to be outside.
[05:07.800 --> 05:15.540]  I want him to be, you know, able to enjoy himself and, and, and, um, to share his knowledge and learn things from the rest of us.
[05:16.080 --> 05:18.900]  You know, I feel that way whenever something bad happens to any of my friends.
[05:18.900 --> 05:27.760]  And, um, this is, uh, one of the worst things, one of the worst, because you just hear the lies and, and you realize people aren't getting it.
[05:28.260 --> 05:29.300]  They don't want to get it.
[05:29.440 --> 05:29.980]  They're not listening.
[05:30.300 --> 05:33.800]  They're not trying to, um, see who he really is.
[05:34.420 --> 05:34.560]  Yeah.
[05:35.220 --> 05:40.600]  Let, let me, let me make something clear here too, because we, we didn't discuss this during the show.
[05:40.760 --> 05:41.840]  Maybe we should have, but.
[05:41.840 --> 05:53.680]  Uh, you know, when Virgil pleaded to this, uh, on the 27th of September last year, that was a very, very painful and emotional day for him.
[05:54.060 --> 06:00.840]  I mean, you could feel the pain in his voice, uh, in, in pleading to the, to the, to the charge.
[06:01.000 --> 06:05.500]  And, um, it, it, it was, it was hard for him.
[06:05.660 --> 06:06.460]  You could see it.
[06:06.640 --> 06:08.760]  It was rough yesterday.
[06:09.660 --> 06:11.460]  Virgil was very strong.
[06:12.020 --> 06:17.780]  I mean, he sat there, he looked up at the judge, he looked at the prosecution, he didn't flinch.
[06:18.120 --> 06:20.380]  He wasn't even emotional.
[06:20.980 --> 06:26.720]  He was, he stood there and he admirably took the sentence that was meted out to him.
[06:27.300 --> 06:38.480]  And the sense, I think, you know, it was what he expected given the position of the government and how the case had, had gone up until that point.
[06:38.480 --> 06:43.040]  I think there was also some hope, but this was all within the realm of expectation.
[06:44.980 --> 06:47.580]  And I was watching him.
[06:47.760 --> 06:53.260]  I was right there in the front row with, uh, his parents sitting right next to his mother and his father.
[06:53.260 --> 06:56.400]  And Virgil was strong.
[06:56.760 --> 06:58.140]  He stood up.
[06:58.340 --> 06:59.840]  He was sat upright.
[07:00.340 --> 07:02.140]  He looked everybody in the eye.
[07:02.280 --> 07:12.480]  And you could tell that this is somebody who has a seriousness of purpose, who will go and do what is expected of him and will come out even stronger.
[07:12.480 --> 07:15.340]  I have no doubt in my mind.
[07:15.340 --> 07:18.940]  And I, I told him as much as that, uh, as well.
[07:19.120 --> 07:27.360]  So, um, I, I think, um, I think he's come a long way as a person during this whole ordeal.
[07:27.940 --> 07:38.320]  Um, and, and I don't, um, I'm not saying that, you know, he wasn't a good person before or anything, but I think this has certainly changed him in a lot of ways.
[07:38.320 --> 07:43.660]  Um, and he is going to continually get stronger through this process.
[07:46.040 --> 07:46.640]  Yeah.
[07:46.820 --> 08:02.500]  I, I find it interesting, um, that, uh, beforehand and be prior to this, um, he had been, uh, really trying to get this technology to so many different parts of the world, places in need.
[08:02.700 --> 08:05.900]  I remember, um, you know, I, I met him a couple of times.
[08:05.900 --> 08:13.720]  I knew him, um, from, uh, uh, uh, hacker events, of course, and, and, uh, your relationship Emanuel.
[08:13.960 --> 08:16.920]  And of course, um, he would be stopping in town.
[08:17.080 --> 08:33.680]  So yeah, I mean, I remember him talking about, um, going to places that had, had been disaster ridden and trying to implement this technology, going to places where people didn't have the ability to, to process transactions and, uh, and could make use of this.
[08:33.680 --> 08:45.760]  Um, and outside of all kinds of systems, all kinds of systems, uh, um, capitalist, uh, governmental, uh, working ad hoc building stuff.
[08:45.980 --> 08:50.040]  And I think him not being involved is a real loss.
[08:50.180 --> 08:57.280]  You know, there was a story recently too, about what was the deal with Ethereum being, uh, sort of distanced early on.
[08:57.280 --> 09:01.780]  Um, and then, um, and then I think there was some statements recently.
[09:01.780 --> 09:10.260]  I don't know if anybody has any updates about that, but it's just seems like they were also afraid to say, yeah, this is the kind of thing we want to be behind.
[09:10.460 --> 09:16.700]  This is the kind of place that could use this for good because of the harshness of sanctions and so forth.
[09:16.860 --> 09:17.720]  Well, let's, let's just be clear though.
[09:17.880 --> 09:27.560]  He wasn't advocating for North Koreans to be, um, uh, uh, you know, other than theoretically, uh, to be evading sanctions and, and using cryptocurrency.
[09:27.960 --> 09:36.940]  He obviously was helping those, uh, um, countries that are facing disasters, uh, and, and, uh, in our own country, Puerto Rico being one of them.
[09:37.460 --> 09:43.960]  Um, but, um, it was in his blood to figure out how to make a system work in this particular case.
[09:44.080 --> 09:50.360]  North Korea was very different than say Haiti, Puerto Rico, or, uh, you know, other impoverished places that were dealing with disasters.
[09:50.360 --> 09:54.300]  This was something that was, uh, you know, more of a political type thing.
[09:54.560 --> 09:56.960]  Um, but it was a, a mental exercise.
[09:57.360 --> 09:58.640]  And he'd never been, right?
[09:58.660 --> 09:59.920]  It was also, it was curiosity.
[10:00.140 --> 10:00.340]  Exactly.
[10:00.460 --> 10:06.240]  And if, you know, if he wanted to do that, he could have easily hidden everything that he was up to.
[10:06.360 --> 10:07.520]  He didn't have to tell anybody.
[10:07.720 --> 10:10.780]  You can go to North Korea and nobody will ever know.
[10:11.180 --> 10:12.740]  I'm telling you that right now.
[10:12.740 --> 10:13.740]  This is how you do it.
[10:13.800 --> 10:16.720]  You go to China and from China, you go to North Korea.
[10:17.060 --> 10:18.840]  There's no visa in your passport.
[10:18.840 --> 10:21.140]  There's no record of it any place.
[10:21.140 --> 10:27.660]  You just need to have an invitation from North Korea, which is fairly easy to arrange.
[10:28.140 --> 10:32.980]  And, um, when you're back, your passport will not show anything.
[10:33.200 --> 10:37.020]  So unless you tell somebody that you went there, nobody will know.
[10:37.280 --> 10:38.700]  He told everybody.
[10:39.260 --> 10:41.080]  He told the U S government.
[10:41.300 --> 10:44.860]  He, he was, he was wanting to share what he learned.
[10:45.560 --> 10:48.380]  And that was his mistake being open.
[10:49.200 --> 10:51.080]  So what message does that send?
[10:51.400 --> 10:52.160]  Yeah, I think you're right.
[10:52.280 --> 10:57.280]  That wasn't emphasized enough that he was bringing back a lot more, um, from there.
[10:57.360 --> 11:04.120]  And it's sad, even like, I think he's not going to be able to contribute and continue to be a part of that community and do work that way.
[11:04.120 --> 11:19.620]  I is one thing, but to think he hasn't even really been able to process what, what he did find out when he was presenting there, the kinds of questions, the things that people were asking, I'm sure he's thought about it personally, but, um, this has been just surviving in this,
[11:19.760 --> 11:41.060]  this, uh, um, uh, case is preoccupied, uh, what he was doing there, um, and, and, and trying to learn and, and, uh, share and, and, and do for himself, you know, that this, this became the focus because of, uh, the ends that I think the prosecution and the,
[11:41.180 --> 11:43.860]  the, those investigating were, were seeking.
[11:44.040 --> 11:51.840]  And the fact that, um, it was mentioned, um, uh, yesterday that, um, uh, there were co-conspirators that he was talking to.
[11:52.240 --> 11:53.980]  Um, Alex, what does that mean?
[11:54.120 --> 11:56.000]  Why didn't they go after these co-conspirators?
[11:56.100 --> 11:58.320]  Were they just trying to send the message with Virgil?
[11:58.720 --> 12:05.840]  I, what does that say to you that there are these other people that they think, they say were plotting with Virgil?
[12:07.440 --> 12:16.320]  Uh, well, uh, first, let me say, um, I, I don't want to, uh, and I don't, I don't think any of us are encouraging anybody to go to North Korea.
[12:17.500 --> 12:23.480]  No, I, I, I, I'm simply saying how, how it is, how easy it is to do that and not tell anybody.
[12:23.780 --> 12:30.220]  We're not encouraging anybody to go and, you know, violate sanctions on, on North Korea or, or, or do anything like that.
[12:30.220 --> 12:36.020]  But I, um, um, with respect to the, the, uh, the co-conspirators, sure.
[12:36.160 --> 12:42.760]  I think, uh, I can't recall exactly from the papers, but I think there were five or six co-conspirators and they were described.
[12:43.340 --> 12:58.740]  Um, I, I, I want to be very careful about how I, um, address that because some of this, obviously I, I know who they are, but you know, there are various reasons why they haven't been, uh, charged in this case.
[12:59.580 --> 13:04.580]  Um, and some of them may be, you know, outside the reach of, of jurisdiction, things like that.
[13:04.700 --> 13:06.600]  There's, there are a number of, of reasons.
[13:06.920 --> 13:08.540]  It seems to me they don't really care.
[13:08.820 --> 13:10.940]  Am I, am I right in, in, in saying that?
[13:12.260 --> 13:13.540]  No, I wouldn't say that.
[13:13.680 --> 13:15.200]  I wouldn't, I wouldn't characterize it as that.
[13:15.320 --> 13:26.580]  I think that they, I think that they care about it, but I think that the, the facts and circumstances surrounding the other co-conspirators are materially different than, than Virgil's situation.
[13:26.900 --> 13:29.660]  I, I need to be, you know, careful about how I address that, so.
[13:31.460 --> 13:31.900]  Okay.
[13:32.140 --> 13:39.900]  Well, just, um, it, it, it really seems like, um, they were focusing primarily on him and that's, that's the message they wanted to send.
[13:40.320 --> 13:46.360]  Uh, also I, I, I should point out, I should point out, uh, it's not a violation of sanctions to visit North Korea.
[13:46.640 --> 13:53.980]  Uh, it's a violation of Trump's decree where basically he said, you know what, I don't want anybody from America going to North Korea except me.
[13:54.620 --> 14:04.000]  Uh, and, um, when, when, when I went to North Korea, I went as, as a European citizen, but I could have gone as an American citizen and it would not have been a violation of the sanctions at all.
[14:04.120 --> 14:11.320]  It's different than Cuba where they make it much more difficult or they did make it much more difficult for you to go there, um, in any way.
[14:11.460 --> 14:14.900]  But North Korea was easy to get to, uh, before Trump.
[14:15.300 --> 14:17.780]  And, and I don't know why it hasn't reverted back.
[14:17.780 --> 14:21.840]  It should, it should still be, uh, easy for people to visit any place in the world.
[14:21.840 --> 14:22.280]  I think.
[14:23.480 --> 14:29.580]  Yeah, and what's in place right now is, is still that Trump-based travel ban on, on North Korea.
[14:29.700 --> 14:33.120]  So going there would, would in fact, you know, be a violation of the law.
[14:33.520 --> 14:37.140]  Um, and we don't encourage people to violate the travel ban.
[14:37.260 --> 14:42.240]  If you're an American citizen, if you're a Canadian, if you're a Brit, you know, anyone else basically can go there.
[14:43.460 --> 14:43.900]  Exactly.
[14:44.360 --> 14:55.460]  It's important to, uh, remember that that was not in effect when, um, I know it's probably immaterial, but when Virgil was there, this was...
[14:55.460 --> 14:56.100]  No, it was in effect.
[14:56.360 --> 14:57.700]  Trump's, Trump's decree was in effect.
[14:57.900 --> 14:58.640]  Did, did it occur?
[14:58.860 --> 14:58.980]  Absolutely, yeah.
[14:58.980 --> 15:00.380]  Right when he, was it right before?
[15:00.380 --> 15:01.780]  It was, it was shortly before.
[15:02.080 --> 15:04.580]  I'm not sure exactly if it was a year or less.
[15:05.020 --> 15:08.400]  Uh, but I wasn't really tapped into that because he was living in...
[15:08.400 --> 15:09.700]  It was, yeah, he, he lived in Singapore.
[15:09.700 --> 15:12.540]  You know, he had, he, he didn't come to the United States very often.
[15:12.620 --> 15:13.380]  He lived in Singapore.
[15:13.540 --> 15:15.480]  He was very close to North Korea geographically.
[15:16.140 --> 15:21.820]  Imagine, you know, the silliness of saying, oh my God, you know, Trump says I can't do this, even though it's so easy for me to do this.
[15:21.820 --> 15:22.600]  He said a lot of stuff.
[15:22.620 --> 15:27.100]  But then he, he basically asked permission anyway, because he never thought that they would say no.
[15:27.420 --> 15:28.580]  And then they did say no.
[15:28.980 --> 15:32.500]  And, um, you know, his, his mistake was, um, doing it anyway.
[15:33.280 --> 15:38.240]  But like I said, that shouldn't be a mistake that, um, you pay for for so long and in such a horrible way.
[15:38.400 --> 15:39.500]  Hey, let's give out our phone number.
[15:39.500 --> 15:42.580]  We're 802-321-4225, 802-321-HACK.
[15:42.880 --> 15:48.520]  Uh, if anyone wants to call in and, uh, be part of a conversation or start a different conversation, that's fine with us as well.
[15:48.960 --> 15:52.640]  Didn't mean to spend all night talking about this, but hey, it's a human life.
[15:52.760 --> 15:54.620]  It's something important and it's a friend of ours.
[15:55.180 --> 16:01.400]  And, um, I don't really feel like talking about anything else, to be honest, because, uh, it's, it's just very upsetting.
[16:01.860 --> 16:03.720]  Um, I wish I could have been there yesterday.
[16:03.720 --> 16:05.720]  We had so many things happening at the same time.
[16:05.780 --> 16:07.400]  It just was impossible physically to get there.
[16:07.400 --> 16:10.340]  But, Alex, what was the, um, uh, the courtroom?
[16:10.560 --> 16:11.780]  Were there, were there a lot of people there?
[16:12.900 --> 16:15.120]  Yeah, it was, it was pretty much packed.
[16:15.320 --> 16:22.640]  And because of the COVID restrictions, there were, um, you know, not even as many seats available as before.
[16:22.640 --> 16:32.480]  Or in one, one of the things that I thought was interesting, you know, when you get into the courthouse now, if you don't have a KN 95 mask, they will give you one to, to wear.
[16:32.760 --> 16:36.680]  Everybody had to wear those KN 95 masks in, in the courtroom.
[16:37.420 --> 16:41.960]  Um, and I, I'll tell you this, I almost missed the entire hearing.
[16:42.680 --> 16:45.080]  And, you know, I, I came in a little bit late.
[16:45.320 --> 16:59.660]  I alluded to this during the show, but I had, I traveled to DC the day before the, um, the hearing to, to go down for a conference and, uh, a dinner, the, uh, IAPP conference.
[16:59.660 --> 17:14.220]  And, and then I had to take a very, very early train back up to New York, uh, a six 50 AM Amtrak train to get back to New York that was supposed to get me in at nine 52 AM to Penn station.
[17:14.820 --> 17:23.180]  And then, uh, the hearing would have been at 11, which is way more than enough time to get downtown, uh, to the Southern district of New York.
[17:23.340 --> 17:28.160]  I mean, you can, you can walk down there, uh, within an hour easily.
[17:29.500 --> 17:43.460]  So I get on the train at six 50 AM and shortly thereafter, I think, you know, right around Wilmington, the conductor makes an announcement that, you know, you may have noticed, but the train is running a little bit more slowly than it ordinarily does.
[17:43.620 --> 17:52.580]  And our max speed is capped, uh, uh, I think it was around 79 miles per hour because there was some kind of mechanical failure with the engine.
[17:52.740 --> 17:53.320]  Oh dear.
[17:54.000 --> 17:55.760]  And I asked, Oh my God, are you kidding me?
[17:55.760 --> 18:03.660]  So we're losing time the entire way that we're going and they started announcing, well, there's going to be substantial delays on this train.
[18:03.840 --> 18:05.420]  I'm thinking, Oh my God, are you kidding me?
[18:05.780 --> 18:08.820]  And then they start announcing that there's going to be excessive delays.
[18:09.000 --> 18:15.340]  We, so we moved from substantial then to excessive and everybody's freaking out on the train because, you know, we've got stuff to do.
[18:15.440 --> 18:20.720]  You know, we're, we're on a six 50 AM train because you know, you have places you have to be in New York.
[18:20.720 --> 18:25.300]  You don't take that train because it's a, it's a convenient time for you to leave.
[18:26.280 --> 18:29.700]  So at some point, the next train is going to pass you too, isn't it?
[18:30.760 --> 18:31.560]  Yeah, probably.
[18:31.840 --> 18:35.420]  I'm not sure how that works, but there's got to be a train behind you that, that isn't being delayed.
[18:36.060 --> 18:40.020]  So then we, we finally get to Philadelphia, you know, slowly, but surely.
[18:40.300 --> 18:45.220]  And then they make an announcement as we're pulling into Philadelphia, that they're going to do something with the train's engine.
[18:45.220 --> 18:50.860]  They're going to take the one from the back and put it on the front or some kind of fix for this.
[18:50.920 --> 18:51.580]  They can do that.
[18:51.680 --> 18:52.400]  They can do that.
[18:52.800 --> 19:02.220]  You know, I've seen on the West coast, what they do sometimes when an Amtrak engine fails is a, they use a union Pacific freight train engine and just haul the whole thing that way.
[19:02.300 --> 19:03.240]  That happens sometimes.
[19:03.420 --> 19:06.240]  I don't know if they do that on, on the Northeast corridor though.
[19:06.780 --> 19:09.720]  Well, however they fix it and whatever they do, it takes time.
[19:09.720 --> 19:21.160]  And I estimated that the time to take this, uh, to fix this issue would have been 30 to 50 minutes, which means that, you know, it's definitely going to take over an hour if they're estimating, you know, up to 50 minutes.
[19:21.160 --> 19:22.820]  Why couldn't they just put you on another train?
[19:22.940 --> 19:24.260]  They have trains there in Philadelphia.
[19:24.480 --> 19:25.660]  I see them parked all the time.
[19:27.020 --> 19:27.420]  Yeah.
[19:27.820 --> 19:28.140]  Yeah.
[19:28.580 --> 19:32.280]  The, uh, well, the, that, that wasn't what they intended to do.
[19:32.380 --> 19:33.560]  That wasn't what they were planning to do.
[19:33.740 --> 19:48.020]  So then if there was a 50 minute delay on top of all the other delays and we're leaving Philadelphia that late, there was no way that I was going to get to New York in time to see even probably the last 10 minutes of the hearing.
[19:48.540 --> 19:53.840]  So I started freaking out and I was looking at the timetable and the schedules are, what the hell can I do?
[19:54.100 --> 19:59.420]  Talking to the conductor turns out there was a regional training that was following us that was behind us.
[19:59.460 --> 20:00.320]  You took SEPTA?
[20:01.820 --> 20:03.400]  Uh, no, it was still Amtrak.
[20:03.640 --> 20:04.040]  Oh, okay.
[20:04.080 --> 20:06.380]  I thought you took the local transit because you can do that.
[20:06.380 --> 20:11.060]  Yeah, you could take SEPTA up to Trenton and then get on a, uh, New Jersey transit train to Penn Station.
[20:11.660 --> 20:12.560]  Oh, that would have been interesting.
[20:12.560 --> 20:15.280]  It's slow and it's cheap, but, uh, it, it does get you there.
[20:16.160 --> 20:16.520]  Yeah.
[20:16.720 --> 20:22.860]  So I hopped off the train in Philadelphia and the, the regional train was leaving in nine minutes.
[20:23.000 --> 20:23.080]  Okay.
[20:23.080 --> 20:24.840]  It arrived and it was leaving in nine minutes.
[20:24.940 --> 20:31.760]  So I was able to get a ticket, book a ticket, get back on the regional train and then get into Penn Station around 1045.
[20:32.080 --> 20:34.060]  Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
[20:34.120 --> 20:35.020]  What do you mean you had to get a ticket?
[20:35.100 --> 20:35.940]  You already had a ticket.
[20:35.940 --> 20:37.020]  Why couldn't you use that ticket?
[20:37.700 --> 20:40.620]  Can't use that same Amtrak ticket to get on a different train.
[20:40.800 --> 20:41.640]  I had to pay a new fee.
[20:42.240 --> 20:42.880]  That's wrong.
[20:43.020 --> 20:43.600]  No, I'm sorry.
[20:43.680 --> 20:44.020]  That's wrong.
[20:44.180 --> 20:45.280]  Especially if it's their fault.
[20:46.360 --> 20:46.900]  Of course.
[20:47.060 --> 20:48.880]  I mean, I'm, I'm going to try to contest this.
[20:49.000 --> 20:52.520]  I'll represent you in Amtrak court, which I can do, by the way, you can't, but I can.
[20:52.940 --> 20:54.820]  And this is another story we can get into today.
[20:54.940 --> 21:01.020]  I was actually, I was in, I was a defendant in court today and, um, and I can talk about that a little bit later.
[21:01.140 --> 21:02.640]  Wait, you were a defendant, not a lawyer.
[21:03.520 --> 21:04.560]  I was, that's right.
[21:04.560 --> 21:06.260]  And I was representing myself pro se.
[21:06.440 --> 21:07.700]  Well, we can get into that later.
[21:08.080 --> 21:08.300]  Okay.
[21:08.740 --> 21:09.800]  You've had an interesting day.
[21:10.720 --> 21:11.940]  Yeah, I definitely did.
[21:12.040 --> 21:12.180]  Yeah.
[21:13.300 --> 21:29.300]  So, uh, I get in, well, I'm, I'm poised to get into New York at 10 45, which is still not enough time for me to get right down to the Southern district of New York in 15 minutes, you know, for the, the hearings to start, but at least I will have only missed a few of it.
[21:29.380 --> 21:29.460]  Right.
[21:29.460 --> 21:37.240]  So I get on the regional train, I sit next to this guy and then I get a CNN alert, um, about the attack that had occurred in Brooklyn.
[21:37.720 --> 21:41.360]  And I think to myself, oh my God, now, now this has happened here.
[21:41.420 --> 21:41.520]  Right.
[21:41.700 --> 21:45.340]  So when I pull into Penn station, the subways are snarled.
[21:45.680 --> 21:46.660]  That's very difficult.
[21:46.660 --> 21:52.060]  And because the subways are snarled, all of the traffic outside is completely snarled up.
[21:52.060 --> 21:55.720]  And I wind up, you know, getting into a cab that's available right out of Penn station.
[21:56.340 --> 21:56.840]  Russia's down.
[21:56.960 --> 21:58.000]  The guy is Russian.
[21:58.380 --> 21:59.560]  He barely speaks any English.
[22:00.120 --> 22:03.120]  Um, and it doesn't really know where he's going.
[22:03.780 --> 22:08.180]  I had to, to, to use ways to tell him the most efficient way to get down there.
[22:08.460 --> 22:15.980]  Uh, and, and, you know, this took about like, uh, probably about, you know, a half an hour or something to get down to the Southern district.
[22:15.980 --> 22:21.200]  And it should have taken, you know, 10 minutes, uh, or 15, maybe at the most.
[22:21.200 --> 22:24.320]  But, uh, it was a crazy situation.
[22:24.320 --> 22:26.260]  And then I had to go through the metal detector.
[22:26.500 --> 22:34.660]  It's a little bit expedited for attorneys, but, um, finally got up to the Southern district in the courthouse around 11, 15 or 11, 20.
[22:34.880 --> 22:37.100]  Wait, after all that, you're only 15 minutes late.
[22:37.680 --> 22:39.380]  After that, it was only 15 minutes late.
[22:39.380 --> 22:43.820]  And it was insanely stressful because, you know, I'd been, this is obviously a very important hearing.
[22:44.020 --> 22:50.060]  It's why I, you know, traveled back and forth to DC in, in a single day in less than 24 hours.
[22:50.800 --> 22:53.660]  Uh, and something I've been working on for quite a while.
[22:53.840 --> 22:59.980]  And to see an Amtrak malfunction about to screw up, you know, your entire ability to get there.
[23:00.100 --> 23:11.140]  And, you know, and more importantly, you want Virgil to see you there, you know, that knows that you care and that, you know, he has your support, uh, especially as, you know, one of his quote unquote representatives.
[23:11.300 --> 23:16.100]  We got to see you burst through the door and then your briefcase fell open and all the papers on the floor and everyone laughing.
[23:16.240 --> 23:17.180]  It was a lighthearted moment.
[23:17.180 --> 23:23.920]  Well, because I was the latest person to come in and, and I was looking around for a seat and there were no seats.
[23:24.080 --> 23:25.180]  Every single seat was taken.
[23:25.660 --> 23:29.620]  And then one of the marshals said to me, if you can't find a seat, you're going to have to leave.
[23:29.860 --> 23:30.200]  Wow.
[23:30.840 --> 23:34.300]  I said, well, you know, there's no way I'm not finding a seat after that ordeal.
[23:34.300 --> 23:36.180]  So I walked straight up to the front of the galley.
[23:36.300 --> 23:46.680]  I saw that there was, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, as an open seat, probably a little bit too close for comfort for maybe, you know, COVID, but it was right next to Virgil's mom and dad.
[23:46.980 --> 23:51.920]  And, um, you know, I went over there, they recognized me despite the KN95 mask.
[23:52.240 --> 23:57.180]  Uh, I gave them a hug and sat down next to them and, uh, and nobody bothered me.
[23:57.380 --> 23:59.040]  So I got there.
[23:59.160 --> 24:01.440]  Quite an entrance, quite an entrance, Alex.
[24:02.320 --> 24:04.100]  Yeah, it was definitely an entrance.
[24:04.380 --> 24:21.820]  And, um, uh, let me tell you, I mean, you just can't rely on Amtrak, you know, to get well, look, this happens on any mode of transit, you know, airplanes, certainly in buses, but Amtrak people are amazing people and they always are trying to help you in one way or another.
[24:22.020 --> 24:27.700]  And if, if more money was just poured into that infrastructure, you wouldn't have these kinds of problems.
[24:27.700 --> 24:35.820]  Maybe we could have actual high-speed rail and you could get from DC to New York in a couple of hours and, um, you know, like other countries.
[24:36.420 --> 24:36.780]  Yeah.
[24:36.940 --> 24:42.600]  I mean, look, that would be great, you know, if it, if it was more, uh, efficient and more reliable.
[24:42.820 --> 24:49.480]  Um, but yeah, this happens to you one too many times and you don't want to take it anymore.
[24:49.660 --> 24:52.800]  Then you, you may want to start taking flights and, and, and I hate taking flights.
[24:52.900 --> 24:53.020]  Yeah.
[24:53.040 --> 24:54.540]  Well, tell me how that works out, Alex.
[24:54.540 --> 25:00.300]  So tell me about the, uh, the streamlined service that you get by, by, uh, getting jam-packed onto a sardine can.
[25:01.140 --> 25:01.260]  Yeah.
[25:01.440 --> 25:06.800]  There, there should be a, a, a, a more reliable and efficient way to get between New York and DC.
[25:07.080 --> 25:09.200]  I'm telling you, you know, driving is horrendous.
[25:09.780 --> 25:11.000]  Trains can be unreliable.
[25:11.640 --> 25:18.560]  Flying is like, the logistics of it are, are just too, um, uh, I want to say, you know, torturous to deal with.
[25:19.640 --> 25:20.960]  You're flying at a LaGuardia.
[25:20.960 --> 25:25.200]  Flying, flying is not gonna get any, flying is not gonna get any, any better.
[25:25.360 --> 25:26.660]  They're not gonna make planes go any faster.
[25:27.080 --> 25:29.680]  Uh, and, and highways are going to be congested.
[25:30.120 --> 25:31.200]  Trains can be improved.
[25:31.500 --> 25:32.600]  The, the rail can be improved.
[25:32.740 --> 25:33.740]  The speed can be improved.
[25:33.840 --> 25:36.120]  And that's what I hope that, um, uh, that happens.
[25:36.460 --> 25:37.800]  Uh, we have a caller.
[25:38.100 --> 25:39.200]  I, hopefully we still have a caller.
[25:39.420 --> 25:40.700]  I didn't hear the phone ring, Kyle.
[25:40.780 --> 25:43.800]  I guess we're on silent mode, but, uh, we do have somebody who's been patiently waiting.
[25:43.800 --> 25:45.300]  Yeah, it was, but it's back on now.
[25:45.620 --> 25:46.100]  It's back on now.
[25:46.160 --> 25:48.940]  Okay, so we will hear the gentle sound of the phone ringing.
[25:49.260 --> 25:49.960]  And good evening.
[25:49.960 --> 25:51.600]  You're on Off Talk Overtime.
[25:51.860 --> 25:52.400]  Thank you for waiting.
[25:52.940 --> 25:54.320]  Hello, it's Phillip from Missouri.
[25:54.440 --> 25:54.940]  How are you guys?
[25:55.040 --> 25:55.520]  Hey, what's up?
[25:56.920 --> 25:57.700]  Nothing much.
[25:57.880 --> 25:59.860]  I'm sorry to hear about Virgil and everything.
[26:00.160 --> 26:01.620]  Yeah, it's terrible.
[26:01.860 --> 26:02.380]  I have a question about that.
[26:02.960 --> 26:04.340]  I have a question about that, though.
[26:04.520 --> 26:15.280]  If he had held that presentation, like, virtually, instead of being there in person, would he have faced any kind of repercussions for that?
[26:15.560 --> 26:16.480]  Oh, interesting question.
[26:16.580 --> 26:17.920]  What do you think about that, Alex?
[26:18.000 --> 26:19.340]  What if he had done it from his house?
[26:19.600 --> 26:23.500]  What if he had answered questions from people in North Korea at his house?
[26:25.240 --> 26:31.440]  This is a fact situation that I have considered numerous times, and in different permutations as well.
[26:33.120 --> 26:45.620]  What if the situation were perhaps that, let's say, he was giving a presentation, in Geneva, and there happened to be a North Korean in the audience.
[26:45.800 --> 27:08.740]  And that singular North Korean person was able to derive some kind of benefit from what he said, similar to what the government's case, the theory of their case was, was that there was one individual, and remember the stipulation was that what Virgil said and did in North Korea did not give them any additional capabilities that they did not already have,
[27:08.740 --> 27:11.800]  but there were certain individuals in the audience who benefited from that.
[27:12.020 --> 27:16.800]  So I think, I think, I think Phil is, is absolutely right to bring up this analogy.
[27:17.040 --> 27:22.180]  It's something I've thought about many times over, you know, since last summer.
[27:22.540 --> 27:25.620]  And I don't know the answer to it.
[27:25.680 --> 27:33.520]  I mean, I, I think based on the government's theory, you would have the same result, that you have benefited somebody in North Korea.
[27:33.520 --> 27:44.740]  The difference being, though, is what Judge Castile focused on in his pronouncement at the end of the hearing, which was the intentionality component of this.
[27:44.900 --> 27:58.000]  If you unintentionally help somebody who, you know, may be North Korean in your audience, that seems to me as being less morally culpable than intentionally going there and intentionally speaking to certain people.
[27:58.000 --> 28:08.680]  I think that's what the distinction under the law would be, the difference between something that was an intentional act and an unintentional consequence of an innocent act.
[28:08.740 --> 28:18.520]  But what if, you know, you're over there in North Korea, and as it was said in the, in the judges on statements, he was helping people, not representatives of the North Korean government.
[28:19.200 --> 28:32.280]  If, if you believe that these people out there are innocent people that aren't affiliated with an evil regime, would that not, by, by this logic, be an excuse to, to, to say that your intentions were good?
[28:33.680 --> 28:40.180]  No, not given the blanket sanctions that, that applied to North Korea as a whole.
[28:40.420 --> 28:48.720]  So just because they're North Koreans, and he, he answered their questions and, and benefited them as a result, that is reason enough.
[28:50.000 --> 28:52.320]  Well, I think, I think it could be.
[28:52.880 --> 28:57.720]  I think, I think the context is what would drive a decision here.
[28:57.980 --> 29:09.440]  You know, if you were at, you know, it was a blockchain conference, and the audience was known to be, you know, people that worked in, I guess, the technology sector and, or the government, things like that.
[29:10.220 --> 29:20.000]  If you were talking at, I don't know, a Care Bear convention or something like that, then I, I think that, you know, and you happened to mention something about cryptocurrency.
[29:20.840 --> 29:27.920]  And it may be, you know, depending upon the intention and your knowledge of what the audience was, and, you know, maybe that could work the same result.
[29:28.080 --> 29:41.280]  But I think, but I think to Phil's point, and, and to your point as well, Emmanuel, there are lots of permutations of the fact patterns here that call into question the legitimacy of the government's theory.
[29:45.210 --> 29:46.000]  Anything else, caller?
[29:47.220 --> 29:55.860]  Well, here's, here's another thing, like, say, for instance, he did the whole presentation as, like, a TED Talk that was put on YouTube, right?
[29:56.560 --> 29:58.210]  Because that's basically what this sounds like.
[29:58.300 --> 30:01.320]  It's just, like, something that would be in a TED Talk, right?
[30:03.070 --> 30:09.260]  Say, for instance, a North Korean saw it on YouTube, what, what would, I mean, what would happen?
[30:09.580 --> 30:10.760]  I mean, anything, or?
[30:13.870 --> 30:17.930]  Yeah, I mean, I, I think it's the same situation here, right?
[30:18.110 --> 30:32.610]  You know, you can have, there are all of these streaming platforms, and, and if, and if they're accessible to somebody else, but I, I think it goes back to this, this notion of, uh, what was intended by the act, you know, and, and the greater the intentionality,
[30:33.010 --> 30:37.250]  the, the greater the level of, of, uh, culpability for the act.
[30:37.510 --> 30:53.930]  So, intentionality and culpability in mathematical terms would be directly proportional to each other, the less, and, and, you know, unintentional consequences, you know, uh, or rather, if you have an unintentional act that has unintentional consequences,
[30:54.150 --> 31:01.210]  or an intentional act that has unintentional Then there's less culpability for that particular act and its consequences.
[31:01.490 --> 31:09.670]  So I think if you were focusing the YouTube video to a North Korean audience, I think, yeah, certainly, absolutely, a government's theory would probably apply.
[31:10.010 --> 31:13.390]  But if it happened to accidentally reach a North Korean?
[31:13.830 --> 31:18.210]  I think it would be much flimsier, much more tenuous case.
[31:18.210 --> 31:20.970]  See, it's the whole thing about intent.
[31:21.310 --> 31:23.330]  You know, we understand Virgil's intent.
[31:23.550 --> 31:24.090]  We know him.
[31:24.290 --> 31:36.530]  And to see it misrepresented in court and his sentence basically being decided because of someone else's interpretation of what he intended to do, that's so disturbing and just unsettling.
[31:38.110 --> 31:41.350]  I think we should have a North Korea track at Hope.
[31:42.530 --> 31:44.910]  Yeah, something that only gets fed into North Korea.
[31:45.370 --> 31:48.090]  You know, even joking about that, we could probably get in trouble.
[31:48.210 --> 31:49.490]  In this climate.
[31:49.790 --> 31:51.170]  I'm not living in that world, no.
[31:51.770 --> 31:52.530]  Yeah, okay.
[31:52.650 --> 31:53.550]  Let's tell ourselves that.
[31:53.870 --> 31:54.710]  Anything else, caller?
[31:56.230 --> 31:56.650]  Oh, yeah.
[31:56.970 --> 31:58.950]  You know, been watching the convoy again.
[31:59.450 --> 32:01.610]  This time they got kicked out of his casino.
[32:01.790 --> 32:03.350]  Wait, are they still out there?
[32:03.470 --> 32:04.850]  The convoy is still out there?
[32:05.030 --> 32:07.390]  Well, they were pounding the pavement today.
[32:07.650 --> 32:13.050]  They had to go walk around on concrete and hand out flyers, and they didn't like that very much.
[32:13.050 --> 32:13.370]  Uh-huh.
[32:14.010 --> 32:15.150]  A lot of people left.
[32:15.710 --> 32:21.550]  One dude left, and I did a YouTube video how they're not going to reimburse the fuel cost anymore.
[32:24.310 --> 32:35.070]  Another guy went back home to Oklahoma, and he went on a rant about something that turned out to be about a sex crime he did with his sister or something like that.
[32:35.070 --> 32:35.130]  Yeah.
[32:35.210 --> 32:36.930]  We don't need to hear that.
[32:37.150 --> 32:39.130]  We don't need to even think about that.
[32:39.870 --> 32:45.370]  Yeah, I mean, it's weird seeing a live stream about that, and he's gotten so paranoid about it.
[32:45.410 --> 32:49.830]  He's been, like, literally live streaming himself sleeping now.
[32:51.210 --> 33:08.490]  But, um, the other guys, uh, the new place they moved to is, like, a place in Manning, um, California, and it happens to be right next to a nuclear, uh, nuclear waste dump that one of the streamers just happened upon just walking around the property, you know,
[33:08.530 --> 33:09.630]  checking the place out.
[33:09.910 --> 33:13.510]  He was looking at some hills, and he's like, oh, there's a sign that says there's radiation here.
[33:13.690 --> 33:14.590]  We shouldn't go here.
[33:16.170 --> 33:18.450]  So, it's not, it's not going well at all for him.
[33:18.850 --> 33:24.750]  Um, um, Mike Landis, the leader of it, he just, like, had a bunch of them, like, show up at a waste station.
[33:24.890 --> 33:32.070]  Apparently, they just sat there in trucks at a waste station all day, doing nothing, honking horns, saving what's the one.
[33:32.070 --> 33:36.930]  Well, I mean, it's kind of the theme, what they do anyway, just not at a waste station, just honking horns and doing nothing.
[33:37.430 --> 33:48.170]  I, you know, I can, I can rent, right now, I can rent for, like, 50 bucks, like, a billboard, a digital billboard somewhere that can, put the message up at certain times of the day, you know?
[33:48.310 --> 33:48.610]  Uh-huh.
[33:49.090 --> 33:53.650]  Um, also, well, you know, just watching this stuff, I ran into something else.
[33:53.890 --> 34:06.090]  Um, did you know that the, that the Minneapolis, um, Sheriff's Department, or it might be the police department, I can't remember which one, they did this thing called patrol, patrol live, where they actually live streamed their patrols at night.
[34:07.310 --> 34:09.550]  Okay, that doesn't sound like it could go wrong.
[34:11.130 --> 34:15.830]  Well, yeah, well, you know, I was watching it because I was like, well, I never heard of this.
[34:16.010 --> 34:18.910]  It just showed up in one of the, one of the recommended things.
[34:18.990 --> 34:21.130]  I guess because I wasn't watching this comedy crap, but...
[34:21.130 --> 34:22.250]  I mean, I'm not opposed to it.
[34:22.290 --> 34:26.430]  I think, I think watching the cops, you know, live would be, uh, beneficial.
[34:26.870 --> 34:29.550]  They, they, they took free food from bars.
[34:29.830 --> 34:32.510]  I mean, they actually took free food from bars.
[34:32.690 --> 34:32.910]  Wow.
[34:33.030 --> 34:35.550]  And it's a couple of domestic disputes from what I saw.
[34:36.310 --> 34:49.510]  Uh, one dude said he had a gun, stuff like that, and they, they, they thought they were, they were upon a, um, a stolen car called, um, the lady driving it, didn't know enough to put her tag on the outside of the car.
[34:49.710 --> 34:53.270]  Yeah, but don't, don't, don't the people that they encounter have to give permission to be broadcast?
[34:55.750 --> 34:57.670]  Um, you know, I'm not sure.
[34:57.810 --> 34:59.830]  I know they did not put the camera up on them.
[34:59.850 --> 35:03.890]  I guess because of the way body counts are done, I don't think they would have to do that.
[35:04.110 --> 35:06.910]  I think I would count as a dash cam or something like that.
[35:08.310 --> 35:13.770]  But, um, but, you know, I mean, they, they have free food.
[35:14.650 --> 35:29.810]  It just, and also, uh, last night on one of these streams, um, with the Conway thing, they had a, you should see this, there's one called Fry TV, where they got like 20 screens up of other streamers that they restream.
[35:30.750 --> 35:36.390]  And I'm still doing the, um, still messing with them up and restreaming them as they gave me a ride along.
[35:37.070 --> 35:40.710]  I actually met my way onto Zillow and talked to them a little bit.
[35:40.890 --> 35:41.130]  Mm-hmm.
[35:41.170 --> 35:42.090]  And they got mad at me.
[35:43.250 --> 35:44.090]  Yeah, they'll do that.
[35:44.110 --> 35:45.270]  They got some questions about stuff.
[35:45.530 --> 35:45.790]  Huh?
[35:45.990 --> 35:46.650]  They'll do that.
[35:46.730 --> 35:50.230]  They'll get mad if they don't recognize somebody on, uh, on, on Zillow.
[35:50.230 --> 35:50.370]  Yeah.
[35:50.570 --> 35:53.350]  I started playing the Convoy song, you know, the old...
[35:53.350 --> 35:54.610]  Yeah, from the 70s.
[35:54.750 --> 35:55.890]  Song from the 70s.
[35:55.990 --> 35:56.110]  Right.
[35:56.110 --> 35:57.730]  They got mad and kicked me off for that.
[35:57.950 --> 35:58.210]  Uh-huh.
[35:58.210 --> 36:06.630]  But, um, but anyway, um, another thing I ran into is, like, something called Texas Storm Chasers, where they, um, they're professional storm chasers.
[36:07.410 --> 36:09.050]  Yeah, they chase tornadoes.
[36:09.170 --> 36:11.130]  Yeah, they do some interesting things.
[36:12.270 --> 36:13.390]  Yeah, it was pretty cool.
[36:13.610 --> 36:15.470]  I thought it was cool, from what I could see of it.
[36:16.110 --> 36:17.850]  Oh, something just showed up on CNN, too.
[36:18.070 --> 36:23.510]  Shooting suspect called in tip that led to his arrest.
[36:23.730 --> 36:24.310]  No, he did.
[36:24.830 --> 36:27.130]  The subway shooter turned himself...
[36:27.130 --> 36:29.230]  Well, he, he gave the tip that turned himself in.
[36:29.350 --> 36:30.390]  I guess he gets the reward now?
[36:30.610 --> 36:31.490]  Is that how it works?
[36:31.690 --> 36:32.290]  I guess.
[36:32.590 --> 36:32.690]  Yeah.
[36:32.770 --> 36:33.770]  He used forced bail.
[36:34.070 --> 36:34.390]  Uh-huh.
[36:34.750 --> 36:36.030]  Yeah, that's, it's smart.
[36:36.310 --> 36:36.670]  Yeah.
[36:37.430 --> 36:39.870]  But, um, interesting couple of days in New York.
[36:40.530 --> 36:42.210]  Did anybody die from here yet, or...
[36:42.210 --> 36:42.690]  I mean, I don't know.
[36:42.810 --> 36:44.990]  It's kind of my own question to ask, but...
[36:44.990 --> 36:45.350]  Don't know.
[36:46.410 --> 36:48.490]  You know, it's been a while since I've been to New York.
[36:48.690 --> 36:50.310]  I was there in 2015 or whatnot.
[36:51.110 --> 36:55.950]  But, um, do they still have the National Guard hanging out in the subways?
[36:56.170 --> 36:57.810]  I believe so, in some places.
[36:57.810 --> 37:01.730]  I haven't been in that region for a little while, but I think they're still there.
[37:02.090 --> 37:10.030]  Yes, there are a lot of different agencies that cooperate and coordinate in various locations all over Manhattan.
[37:10.030 --> 37:19.610]  Yeah, and everyone from the State Patrol to the National Guard to NYPD to MTA PD, and especially when people are setting off smoke bombs in the subway.
[37:19.830 --> 37:20.210]  Yeah.
[37:20.510 --> 37:22.270]  Yeah, there's a bunch of that.
[37:22.310 --> 37:23.870]  Well, yeah, this happened in Brooklyn, though.
[37:24.090 --> 37:26.550]  I mean, I remember going to the Bronx and I didn't see anybody.
[37:26.810 --> 37:27.290]  Uh-huh.
[37:27.390 --> 37:35.450]  And I went to, I got off at Yankee Stadium, and I saw the biggest rat I ever saw in my life there.
[37:35.850 --> 37:37.870]  The size of a cat, and I was like, oh my God.
[37:38.350 --> 37:39.090]  It's true.
[37:40.610 --> 37:45.150]  Um, but yeah, I mean, um, just hanging in with that.
[37:45.390 --> 37:56.350]  Uh, what we need, that's for the, for the cyber crimes and whatnot, it's just, um, an educated legislator, legislative and, um, judicial system.
[37:57.350 --> 38:01.290]  We definitely need a cyber court to deal with all this stuff.
[38:02.530 --> 38:12.430]  Um, as far as the tribal ban thing, I, I don't know how, the only thing I could think of, he could have done it without getting in trouble, like, doing it virtually.
[38:13.850 --> 38:14.310]  Right.
[38:14.690 --> 38:21.530]  But I don't know if that would count as doing, like, transaction stuff or something like that with sanctions.
[38:21.530 --> 38:28.510]  I mean, I mean, I mean, if I was to make the phone call, right, to North Korea, would I get in trouble for that, or?
[38:29.170 --> 38:32.210]  I don't think so, but it's, it's hard to do in the first place.
[38:34.070 --> 38:34.470]  Yeah.
[38:35.230 --> 38:45.110]  We, we just need to, we just need to go out there and vote for people who, who actually know what they're doing and try to change some of this stuff.
[38:45.590 --> 38:51.550]  Also, did you hear about California trying to pass a law to, um, make a work week 32 hours?
[38:52.010 --> 38:53.390]  Uh, I did not hear about that.
[38:54.270 --> 38:56.490]  Yeah, I heard about it on Kim a little bit at night.
[38:56.870 --> 38:57.210]  Uh-huh.
[38:59.750 --> 39:02.350]  Something else for corporate America to get mad at everybody about.
[39:03.150 --> 39:03.510]  Wow.
[39:04.410 --> 39:07.630]  All right, listen, we're going to move on to another phone call, but, uh, thanks, uh...
[39:07.630 --> 39:08.070]  Okay, I'm sorry.
[39:08.230 --> 39:08.950]  Thanks for calling in.
[39:09.050 --> 39:09.970]  Oh, no, no, don't apologize.
[39:10.330 --> 39:11.310]  We're happy to hear from you.
[39:11.810 --> 39:12.270]  Keep listening.
[39:12.550 --> 39:18.310]  Yeah, uh, our phone number, 802-321-4225, uh, and we're going to hear the phone this time, I believe, if it does ring.
[39:18.910 --> 39:20.150]  802-321-HACK.
[39:20.830 --> 39:23.170]  Uh, on for a few more minutes.
[39:26.900 --> 39:27.860]  And there it is.
[39:27.860 --> 39:29.200]  It's just like clockwork.
[39:33.230 --> 39:33.910]  Are we connected?
[39:34.170 --> 39:34.490]  Okay.
[39:34.970 --> 39:35.530]  And good evening.
[39:35.690 --> 39:36.810]  You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
[39:38.170 --> 39:38.890]  Hi, Emmanuel.
[39:39.390 --> 39:39.830]  It's Rebel.
[39:39.930 --> 39:40.270]  How you doing?
[39:41.330 --> 39:41.670]  Yeah.
[39:42.110 --> 39:46.550]  So, kind of still disappointed that I can't go to Russia, but, um...
[39:46.550 --> 39:47.250]  Oh, okay.
[39:47.270 --> 39:47.910]  So, wait.
[39:48.010 --> 39:49.330]  You decided not to go to Russia.
[39:49.450 --> 39:49.850]  That's news.
[39:50.890 --> 39:52.550]  Well, it's not that I decided not to go.
[39:52.670 --> 39:52.770]  I can't.
[39:52.910 --> 39:53.990]  It's just the logistics of it.
[39:54.130 --> 39:56.570]  It's just, you know, it'll be just too much.
[39:56.710 --> 39:57.650]  That is a decision.
[39:57.850 --> 39:58.710]  You made a decision.
[39:58.870 --> 39:59.770]  You made a good decision.
[40:00.770 --> 40:01.090]  Right.
[40:01.270 --> 40:01.970]  Well, maybe next year.
[40:02.050 --> 40:03.530]  Well, the visa's good for three years.
[40:03.810 --> 40:07.510]  You know, I got the visa, and, you know, it's still in the process of getting the visa.
[40:07.630 --> 40:08.330]  It's good for three years.
[40:08.430 --> 40:10.270]  So, if I can't go this year, maybe I'll go next year.
[40:10.270 --> 40:11.530]  I didn't know it lasted three years.
[40:11.890 --> 40:12.210]  Wow.
[40:12.790 --> 40:13.330]  That's amazing.
[40:13.330 --> 40:17.590]  Well, you know, and then if I can't go next year, then maybe I could go the next year.
[40:17.690 --> 40:19.730]  I thought it lasted three months, but maybe I'm wrong.
[40:20.110 --> 40:23.610]  That's really smart, Rebel, because you're keeping your options open.
[40:24.910 --> 40:25.270]  Right.
[40:26.270 --> 40:33.030]  Now, how did you go to North Korea and Cuba and all when you couldn't exchange money and they don't take American credit cards?
[40:33.150 --> 40:33.910]  How did you do it?
[40:34.710 --> 40:40.150]  When I went to North Korea, first of all, I went as a European citizen because I have a European passport, but I could have gone as an American citizen.
[40:40.150 --> 40:41.690]  It was open at that point.
[40:41.910 --> 40:42.990]  Not everybody has that option.
[40:43.710 --> 40:44.250]  As what?
[40:44.370 --> 40:45.350]  To go as...
[40:48.150 --> 40:48.790]  Different passport.
[40:49.250 --> 40:50.190]  Yeah, but I could have gone as an American.
[40:50.270 --> 40:51.690]  My point is I could have gone as an American, too.
[40:51.850 --> 40:53.670]  It was open to Americans up until Trump.
[40:53.870 --> 41:02.610]  And all you had to do was go to China and meet up with the people that ran the tour group, and they would fly you over, and you were there.
[41:02.770 --> 41:03.770]  I hate to be a pest.
[41:03.910 --> 41:07.290]  But you just randomly chose the European one.
[41:07.450 --> 41:10.310]  Tell me you didn't consciously say, you know what?
[41:10.870 --> 41:13.330]  I don't want to use this option.
[41:13.730 --> 41:16.690]  I'm choosing chocolate because I don't want to choose vanilla.
[41:16.910 --> 41:18.370]  I have no idea what you're talking about.
[41:18.470 --> 41:19.710]  Why choose one or the other?
[41:19.950 --> 41:21.230]  I mean, obviously, you're motivated.
[41:21.590 --> 41:23.910]  Why did I choose using my European passport instead of my American passport?
[41:24.090 --> 41:26.030]  I'm saying some people don't have options.
[41:26.030 --> 41:27.090]  You had the option.
[41:27.270 --> 41:28.310]  You chose one.
[41:28.930 --> 41:30.690]  I chose the option.
[41:30.910 --> 41:31.170]  Right.
[41:31.170 --> 41:36.090]  But say your only option is the one you didn't choose.
[41:36.330 --> 41:37.070]  That's what I mean.
[41:37.170 --> 41:38.070]  Not everybody has the option.
[41:38.190 --> 41:38.950]  That's all I'm saying.
[41:39.230 --> 41:39.710]  Okay, look.
[41:40.110 --> 41:43.390]  It's like you have standard, and then you have deluxe.
[41:43.390 --> 41:45.150]  And you choose standard.
[41:46.150 --> 41:46.870]  Come on.
[41:47.030 --> 41:54.110]  The European passport is better for going into that country because you're trusted more as a European citizen than an American citizen.
[41:54.790 --> 41:57.350]  But my point is that I didn't have to do that.
[41:57.390 --> 42:01.690]  I could have gone in as an American, and I wouldn't have been able to take the train out of the country.
[42:01.830 --> 42:04.550]  That was one of the options that Europeans had that Americans did not have.
[42:04.670 --> 42:06.250]  They had to fly in and out.
[42:06.750 --> 42:12.410]  But once you got there, I believe all the expenses were taken care of by the travel agents.
[42:12.550 --> 42:17.810]  So you paid them, and they covered all your meals and travel and all that.
[42:17.810 --> 42:21.710]  So you weren't actually exchanging money with people in North Korea.
[42:21.830 --> 42:23.290]  So I think that's how they got around that.
[42:24.290 --> 42:24.490]  Okay.
[42:24.610 --> 42:25.750]  Now, what about Cuba?
[42:26.470 --> 42:32.610]  Cuba was a little bit more complicated because we were able to go as journalists.
[42:33.310 --> 42:35.510]  The American government was happy with that.
[42:36.010 --> 42:40.730]  And unfortunately, in Cuba, they don't like journalists.
[42:41.050 --> 42:48.530]  So there was this weird kind of gap between my status when I left and my status when I arrived.
[42:48.730 --> 43:00.850]  There were a few questions being asked in Havana when I got there, and they seemed to be sort of fixating on how are you a tourist that flew in from Florida when tourism isn't allowed.
[43:00.850 --> 43:14.130]  But eventually, the tour guide, the person that was basically in charge of transporting people to hotels, got so impatient, she started yelling at the customs guy, and he got intimidated and just kind of let me go.
[43:14.930 --> 43:16.030]  It was that simple.
[43:16.530 --> 43:17.950]  So somehow, I was able...
[43:17.950 --> 43:22.390]  Well, we have money, and how about money, and using, you know, you can use credit cards there.
[43:22.430 --> 43:33.990]  I think, you know, I don't remember, this was a number of years ago, but I'm pretty sure that when you have a reason to go there, you obviously have to pay for things like food and a place to stay.
[43:34.130 --> 43:37.210]  I think that's allowed if you're allowed in the country.
[43:37.410 --> 43:44.290]  You're not able to make, you know, massive gifts and, you know, purchase homes or things like that, but I think the daily...
[43:44.290 --> 43:45.930]  No, I mean, like paying for hotels.
[43:46.130 --> 43:56.810]  You can't use an American Express card or a Visa card to pay for a hotel or use, you know, like a, you know, their currency to pay for like a subway ride or a, you know, like a snack or whatever.
[43:56.970 --> 43:57.210]  Right.
[43:57.250 --> 44:02.090]  Well, we probably, you know, again, this was a while ago, probably had to exchange currency.
[44:02.410 --> 44:03.770]  There are two different kinds of currency.
[44:03.890 --> 44:11.930]  There is a currency for people who lived in Cuba, and there's a currency for people who did not live in Cuba, and totally different prices, depending on which you were.
[44:11.990 --> 44:21.730]  But like I said, because if you qualify to go there as a particular, in my case, a journalist, you're able to spend money there.
[44:22.110 --> 44:25.790]  Just, you know, not an extravagant amount, but enough to get by.
[44:27.150 --> 44:27.230]  Hmm.
[44:27.370 --> 44:35.090]  I wonder if the Soviet Union, like back in the Soviet days, like in the, like before the 90s, I had a, there was a thing called interest, where if U.S.
[44:35.170 --> 44:39.650]  citizens wanted to visit the Soviet Union, they could go to this tourist agency.
[44:39.870 --> 44:41.870]  I guess, I wonder how they did that with the ruble.
[44:42.110 --> 44:45.210]  Yeah, there are similar things in Belarus, I'm pretty sure.
[44:45.410 --> 44:51.690]  So if you want to go back to the Soviet Union, try, try, well, don't try it now, after all these shenanigans are over.
[44:51.690 --> 44:53.570]  Well, no, I mean, you still need a visa to get to Belarus, also.
[44:54.010 --> 44:55.930]  And you can get imprisoned in Belarus.
[44:56.070 --> 45:01.610]  If you take a train from Poland, and you wind up in Belarus, they will throw you in prison if you don't have a visa.
[45:01.810 --> 45:02.390]  So be careful.
[45:04.910 --> 45:10.770]  I'm glad I'm not getting, I don't think I'm going to go anywhere this year, and maybe the Hope Conference will be my highlight.
[45:11.050 --> 45:12.590]  There you go, that's the right thinking.
[45:13.030 --> 45:17.010]  The Belarusian passport is installed in your passport.
[45:17.010 --> 45:17.730]  You mean the visa?
[45:18.050 --> 45:19.210]  I'm sorry, yeah, visa.
[45:19.550 --> 45:19.670]  Yeah.
[45:19.850 --> 45:24.430]  The Belarusian visa to get into the country is affixed to your passport.
[45:24.610 --> 45:26.850]  You know, crazy, crazy thought here.
[45:27.170 --> 45:28.850]  There's nothing wrong with getting a visa.
[45:29.170 --> 45:32.310]  I mean, get a Belarusian visa, get a Russian visa, just don't go.
[45:32.550 --> 45:33.450]  Well, that's what rebels do.
[45:33.450 --> 45:35.070]  But fill your passport, fill your passport with visas.
[45:35.070 --> 45:35.510]  Why not?
[45:36.170 --> 45:38.050]  That's a nice, safe way to travel.
[45:38.410 --> 45:39.490]  Except you're not going anywhere.
[45:39.490 --> 45:51.490]  Well, you know, to European, let's say I went to Portugal and European Union and Germany and London and Paris and, you know, I went to Ukraine like two years ago and...
[45:51.490 --> 45:52.230]  Uh-huh.
[45:52.590 --> 45:54.830]  You're mentioning unions and countries and cities.
[45:56.030 --> 45:58.630]  Europe is comprised of all of that, so yeah.
[45:58.930 --> 46:03.730]  Yeah, yeah, but I'm saying I went to Ukraine two years ago, you know, just Ukraine two years ago.
[46:03.730 --> 46:05.350]  Uh-huh, it was a different place then.
[46:06.430 --> 46:06.730]  Yeah.
[46:07.670 --> 46:14.250]  But I'd like to, this year, go to Poland and Italy and Switzerland and Ireland.
[46:14.430 --> 46:15.230]  No reason you can't.
[46:16.190 --> 46:17.290]  I know I can't.
[46:17.390 --> 46:23.070]  I mean, well, it's a lot of money and I'd like to save it for, you know, other...
[46:23.070 --> 46:31.110]  I'd like to go to odd countries, but, you know, I'd like to visit like Europe and the common countries that people visit, but...
[46:31.110 --> 46:31.350]  Rebel.
[46:31.350 --> 46:48.550]  Well, you say, I'm sorry, you say, uh, it's, it's costly, but don't get, don't get into that trap because that is the most common reason Americans say they can't go somewhere or they don't have time or that it's, yeah, too expensive.
[46:49.110 --> 46:50.630]  That, that is made up.
[46:50.650 --> 46:55.650]  That is like resort travel or like all inclusive, that kind of thing.
[46:55.770 --> 46:59.710]  It does not have to be expensive if you don't, if you don't make it expensive.
[46:59.710 --> 47:01.350]  Yeah, and, and there's tricks too.
[47:01.550 --> 47:04.610]  You know, but I like to, but I like to enjoy the finer things in life.
[47:04.690 --> 47:06.270]  Of course you do, but, you know, there's...
[47:06.270 --> 47:07.170]  Oh, come on, you're not like...
[47:08.090 --> 47:09.310]  No, he's, he's high class.
[47:09.490 --> 47:11.650]  But it's not the lion's share of your trip.
[47:11.790 --> 47:12.390]  There's certain things.
[47:12.490 --> 47:18.110]  Like if you ride an overnight train, well, then you don't, you don't have a plate, you don't have to worry about a hotel room because you're sleeping on the train.
[47:18.110 --> 47:21.750]  You have a room on the train so that you get your, your travel and your accommodations.
[47:21.750 --> 47:27.530]  Like, you know, we took the, the QM2 across the damn Atlantic ocean that took like a seven or eight days.
[47:27.850 --> 47:39.190]  And you might say, oh, you took an ocean line, but if you divide what we spent on it by what we would spend in a hotel for each one of those nights and the travel, it actually, it's not that much.
[47:39.190 --> 47:40.630]  So it depends on how you think about it.
[47:40.630 --> 47:51.690]  And also rebel, just putting this out there, when you go places, you can, um, you can often, you know, spend money in places where the exchange rate is to your advantage.
[47:51.830 --> 47:56.010]  You're supporting, you're, you're going to a strange place.
[47:56.010 --> 47:57.770]  You're supporting the economy there a little bit.
[47:57.870 --> 47:59.190]  You're learning about it.
[47:59.370 --> 48:18.190]  And, uh, and, and many of the places when we were visiting former Soviet, um, former Yugoslavia, uh, countries that, that were a part of that, um, many times we would be like amazed at just the quality and how, um, how good people were to you, the hospitality that was extended to you,
[48:18.310 --> 48:26.950]  even though you're some, you're from a far flung place or, or, um, you know, you, you're not completely like, uh, familiarized with the area.
[48:27.450 --> 48:30.610]  That stuff is, is so priceless when you're traveling.
[48:30.610 --> 48:37.930]  And, um, those little, little ways to be smart about it, um, can really make it quite affordable.
[48:38.070 --> 48:50.190]  I remember as a child, uh, there, there was some kind of, um, uh, it was an airline or a travel agency or somebody that was advertising going to Europe and, and talking to those people who would always make excuses and, and their line, their pitch was,
[48:50.530 --> 48:57.590]  you know, if you keep making excuses every year, you make excuses for not going to Europe because it's too expensive because you think you can't afford it.
[48:57.590 --> 49:04.850]  You're one year closer to never going such a dark way of selling travel to Europe, but it was effective.
[49:05.030 --> 49:12.510]  But we just, we hear a lot, especially with people that are professionals, they work, you know, in, in, you know, regular hours and stuff like that.
[49:12.510 --> 49:14.190]  And they're like, yeah, I just can't get away.
[49:14.330 --> 49:16.890]  I can't get away from the holiday or from families and this and that.
[49:16.950 --> 49:22.310]  Oh, the job, you know, sometimes all of those things they're, they're valid, but cost shouldn't be it.
[49:22.410 --> 49:26.390]  Cause there are so many cool things you can do to make it worth your while or make it work for your situation.
[49:26.490 --> 49:27.250]  That's all I'm saying.
[49:27.350 --> 49:28.410]  Don't let it bar you from travel.
[49:28.550 --> 49:38.910]  Look at what you're not spending here when you're, when you're over there, especially if you're able to rent out, you know, your apartment or your house or something while you're away, uh, and then apply that to, um, to travel.
[49:38.990 --> 49:50.010]  But rebel, you know what I would suggest if you're looking for interesting places to go, try former Yugoslavia, like Kyle mentioned, because that's a bunch of really unique, different countries and it is cheap as hell.
[49:50.250 --> 49:55.270]  I mean, you will find quality hotel rooms for like, you know, $40 or something.
[49:55.550 --> 49:58.770]  Uh, food is, is plentiful and, and, and cheap and good.
[49:59.290 --> 50:03.350]  And, um, there were just so many different places to, to explore.
[50:03.530 --> 50:04.130]  They're all different.
[50:05.870 --> 50:06.270]  Right.
[50:06.490 --> 50:10.810]  And, um, yeah, I would, uh, I mean, I actually, I would never go on a cruise.
[50:10.930 --> 50:13.950]  I wouldn't, I don't think I would want to sleep on a boat or sleep on a train.
[50:14.150 --> 50:15.510]  I mean, like, you know, things like that.
[50:15.730 --> 50:16.450]  You should try it.
[50:16.490 --> 50:18.890]  At least the trains, you know, they're, they're, they're quite comfortable.
[50:19.590 --> 50:22.730]  I mean, I never slept on like a room in a train.
[50:22.750 --> 50:23.510]  You should try it.
[50:23.610 --> 50:24.650]  You, you want adventure.
[50:24.850 --> 50:25.450]  That's adventure.
[50:27.090 --> 50:29.890]  Well, you mean keeping Amtrak like across the United States?
[50:30.150 --> 50:33.810]  Oh, we've done that a few times, but I'm talking about in Europe where they actually, you know, know how to do it.
[50:33.950 --> 50:39.230]  Well, you can get a really nice room and it's very comfortable and you, you go right to sleep on the rail.
[50:39.650 --> 50:43.570]  Or, or you, uh, test the waters there.
[50:43.570 --> 50:44.670]  A little pun for you.
[50:45.290 --> 50:45.290]  Mm-hmm.
[50:45.290 --> 50:47.890]  Um, remember the Liverpool to Belfast ferry.
[50:48.070 --> 50:48.610]  That was overnight.
[50:48.850 --> 50:49.330]  That's true.
[50:49.410 --> 50:49.570]  Yeah.
[50:49.590 --> 50:50.510]  That's what I wanted to take.
[50:50.690 --> 50:51.390]  That's a short one.
[50:51.570 --> 50:51.970]  All right.
[50:52.170 --> 50:52.290]  Easily.
[50:52.430 --> 50:53.270]  That was a great one.
[50:53.350 --> 50:53.990]  That would be really fun.
[50:54.170 --> 50:54.170]  Okay.
[50:54.170 --> 51:04.290]  You take that and get a room or or the, um, the hookaharwich the hookaharwich Um, uh ferry that goes from England to uh, New Orleans, that's uh, that's an overnight ferry, too.
[51:04.790 --> 51:06.410]  That's, that's, uh, you can get a room on that one.
[51:07.190 --> 51:09.590]  No, I was gonna take I was gonna fly into Ireland.
[51:09.910 --> 51:11.490]  And then, uh, uh, go from Dublin.
[51:11.810 --> 51:20.370]  Uh, like, Northern England or Central England on a boat that takes like three or four hours across the English Channel or whatever it's called.
[51:20.370 --> 51:21.450]  Well, there's a faster boat, too.
[51:21.550 --> 51:25.450]  But, you know, they actually brought back the slow boat because people were complaining it wasn't as much fun.
[51:25.630 --> 51:28.710]  So that gives you an idea of the spirit of travel.
[51:28.910 --> 51:29.790]  Something else you could do?
[51:29.870 --> 51:35.850]  You could drive to Nova Scotia, a place called Sydney, and get on a ferry there.
[51:35.970 --> 51:38.230]  Get on a ferry there and take it to St. John's, Newfoundland.
[51:38.270 --> 51:39.070]  That's an overnight ferry.
[51:39.230 --> 51:42.430]  And, you know, you can do the whole thing just by driving.
[51:42.430 --> 51:43.910]  But I have been to Newfoundland.
[51:44.110 --> 51:45.590]  I mean, no, I haven't been to Nova Scotia.
[51:45.630 --> 51:46.470]  I've never been to Newfoundland.
[51:47.530 --> 51:51.050]  I think last week you said you were in Newfoundland, so you must have meant Nova Scotia.
[51:51.370 --> 51:52.310]  But mixing and matching.
[51:52.310 --> 51:52.910]  Probably Nova Scotia.
[51:52.910 --> 51:53.150]  Yeah.
[51:53.290 --> 51:54.210]  Newfoundland you should check out.
[51:54.450 --> 51:54.690]  Probably Nova Scotia, yeah.
[51:54.770 --> 51:55.830]  Because Newfoundland's an island.
[51:57.370 --> 51:58.070]  They're similar.
[51:58.250 --> 51:59.950]  Newfoundland used to be its own country.
[52:00.330 --> 52:04.210]  And, in fact, TV and radio stations there still begin with V, some of them.
[52:04.850 --> 52:06.870]  Make sure you try different modes, though.
[52:06.910 --> 52:08.190]  That's another great technique.
[52:08.190 --> 52:14.230]  Because you get to put a little bit of space in between your connections, but you go from one mode of transport.
[52:14.510 --> 52:18.870]  And you just... it kind of keeps you moving, keeps you traveling.
[52:19.750 --> 52:24.630]  And that pace will... I think it's something that travelers grow to enjoy.
[52:24.750 --> 52:25.670]  Now I want to travel.
[52:25.950 --> 52:26.430]  Damn it, Rebel.
[52:26.590 --> 52:28.210]  You made me get into a traveling mode.
[52:28.650 --> 52:32.390]  Alex, do you have any advice for Rebel on his potential journeys here?
[52:33.110 --> 52:36.510]  Oh, I think you guys have nailed it, mostly.
[52:37.530 --> 52:42.270]  You know, I can certainly attest to the fact that you can travel on the cheap.
[52:42.470 --> 52:51.770]  I mean, I have been all over Western Europe, parts of Eastern Europe, just taking trains, staying in hostels, you know, literally living off dollars per day.
[52:52.690 --> 53:00.130]  You know, not very recently, of course, but, you know, back in the 90s and in the early 2000s.
[53:00.190 --> 53:04.450]  I mean, I even was in Russia in 1999.
[53:05.530 --> 53:08.370]  And just, you know, I think back in it, too.
[53:08.530 --> 53:16.610]  I was about, you know, 20 years old and, you know, flew with a friend of mine and my girlfriend into Moscow.
[53:17.690 --> 53:19.450]  And we didn't really have a plan.
[53:19.650 --> 53:25.370]  We knew we wanted to get to St. Petersburg and then maybe go into the Baltic states and we're just sort of figuring it out from there.
[53:25.770 --> 53:26.950]  And we had a few weeks.
[53:27.190 --> 53:36.770]  And so, you know, we just, with no smartphones, no GPS, nothing but a guidebook, got on a plane, went to sleep and landed in Moscow.
[53:37.050 --> 53:39.550]  Why did you fly into St. Petersburg if that's where you wanted to go?
[53:40.270 --> 53:41.870]  Well, we wanted to go to Moscow first.
[53:41.870 --> 53:47.370]  We wanted to travel up to St. Petersburg and then go from there either to the Baltic states or into Scandinavia.
[53:48.490 --> 53:50.410]  And, you know, and we did it.
[53:50.510 --> 53:52.770]  And we did it really, really on the cheap.
[53:53.270 --> 54:00.450]  And we were able to make our way around, you know, Russia without any GPS and not really speaking the language.
[54:00.450 --> 54:04.790]  I could speak a bit, but, you know, it was pretty awesome.
[54:04.790 --> 54:11.710]  And I have some of my best memories and best stories from these crazy times where that were completely unscripted.
[54:11.810 --> 54:14.670]  You just had a destination and you figure it out as you go.
[54:14.790 --> 54:16.370]  It's still my favorite way to travel.
[54:16.550 --> 54:18.110]  They totally stick with you, the memories.
[54:18.270 --> 54:20.410]  I was just thinking about Brasislava the other day.
[54:20.910 --> 54:24.830]  You remember the places you ate, you know, or, you know, that you traipsed in.
[54:24.950 --> 54:31.290]  The first night where you're trying to get your bearings and what the town was like once you got more familiar with it.
[54:31.290 --> 54:32.370]  Yeah, it's amazing.
[54:32.430 --> 54:36.310]  When you first arrive in a place, it's completely different than the next day when you wake up and start exploring it.
[54:36.410 --> 54:38.810]  It seems alien and hostile.
[54:39.230 --> 54:40.990]  And then you become really familiar with it.
[54:41.230 --> 54:43.190]  You know, we felt that way in Sarajevo.
[54:43.310 --> 54:46.610]  We took a bus from Croatia and wound up in Sarajevo.
[54:46.710 --> 54:48.890]  And it was so intimidating when we arrived there at night.
[54:49.010 --> 54:50.430]  We had no idea where we were.
[54:50.630 --> 54:58.990]  And then the next day was the most incredible thing, just going through this huge market with people from all different parts of the country, all different religions.
[54:59.810 --> 55:01.070]  It was really cool.
[55:01.290 --> 55:02.690]  It was one of the most amazing moments.
[55:03.550 --> 55:10.450]  What I like about Russia is I see videos of everything, like the food service, like the McDonald's and the restaurants and the cafes.
[55:10.710 --> 55:11.690]  They're all clean.
[55:11.910 --> 55:17.170]  It's like in a picture-perfect clean.
[55:17.850 --> 55:24.310]  You see videos of Russia and probably other countries, too, in Europe, in Western Europe.
[55:24.470 --> 55:25.590]  It's so clean.
[55:26.650 --> 55:30.310]  Unlike here in the United States where people don't care about cleanliness.
[55:30.310 --> 55:31.250]  Well, hold on a second.
[55:31.930 --> 55:35.750]  That may be the case for Switzerland or the Netherlands or something like that.
[55:35.810 --> 55:38.970]  But I can tell you there are parts of Russia that are very, very dirty.
[55:39.190 --> 55:41.290]  And also London and even Paris.
[55:41.690 --> 55:42.950]  They have dirt.
[55:43.950 --> 55:58.930]  Yeah, I know, but, you know, well, my plan was to go to Ireland and see Ireland a little and then go take a boat to England and then, like, drive up to, like, Scotland and not drive up to, take a bus or train up to Scotland.
[55:58.930 --> 56:00.310]  Yeah, that's a lot of fun.
[56:00.550 --> 56:02.470]  Have you ever driven on the other side of the road?
[56:03.250 --> 56:04.650]  That's why I'm not going to do that.
[56:04.850 --> 56:05.110]  Why not?
[56:05.110 --> 56:05.610]  I'm not going to try.
[56:05.930 --> 56:06.690]  No, you should try.
[56:06.890 --> 56:08.530]  It's surprisingly easy.
[56:08.550 --> 56:09.410]  It really is.
[56:09.490 --> 56:10.410]  You just adapt.
[56:10.410 --> 56:11.190]  You'll be surprised.
[56:12.150 --> 56:14.490]  And oftentimes, you have to drive a standard, too.
[56:14.490 --> 56:16.570]  So, you're shifting with one hand and...
[56:16.570 --> 56:17.110]  Yeah, I know.
[56:17.110 --> 56:17.870]  The shifting's harder.
[56:18.030 --> 56:19.230]  I know, but I'm trying to scan it.
[56:19.510 --> 56:19.690]  Uh-huh.
[56:19.710 --> 56:23.670]  And then I was going to go to Switzerland and go to Switzerland and see Switzerland.
[56:23.950 --> 56:28.950]  Then I was going to go to, like, you know, maybe Italy and Rome and then, you know, Poland.
[56:29.030 --> 56:31.490]  But it's going to cost, like, $6,000 for all this.
[56:31.490 --> 56:32.110]  Oh, no, no.
[56:32.370 --> 56:34.430]  It should not cost anything like that.
[56:34.490 --> 56:35.290]  It really shouldn't.
[56:35.390 --> 56:36.190]  Get your train book.
[56:36.410 --> 56:36.570]  Yeah.
[56:36.790 --> 56:39.210]  Get your budget for train tickets.
[56:39.430 --> 56:43.310]  You know, you should get the train book, like Kyle suggested.
[56:43.310 --> 56:43.830]  I forget what it is.
[56:43.870 --> 56:46.070]  It used to be the Thomas Cook Train Timetable.
[56:47.570 --> 56:48.010]  It's...
[56:48.010 --> 56:48.950]  The European Rail...
[56:48.950 --> 56:50.950]  Yeah, just look up the European Rail Timetable.
[56:51.110 --> 56:51.750]  It's a book.
[56:51.910 --> 56:52.830]  It comes out every month.
[56:53.310 --> 56:56.230]  And you can just have a copy sent to you.
[56:56.570 --> 57:00.610]  And it's, you know, the times usually stay about the same throughout the year.
[57:01.510 --> 57:02.230]  What is it?
[57:02.450 --> 57:04.310]  Yeah, the European Rail Timetable.
[57:04.850 --> 57:06.110]  It's published every month.
[57:06.310 --> 57:09.130]  It used to be called the Thomas Cook European Rail Timetable.
[57:09.470 --> 57:10.290]  Get this book.
[57:10.430 --> 57:14.310]  Even if you don't go anywhere, if you study this, You'll see all the possibilities.
[57:14.630 --> 57:15.850]  And it's really fascinating.
[57:16.030 --> 57:16.190]  Right.
[57:16.590 --> 57:20.470]  But I'm not going to take the train from London, England to Switzerland.
[57:20.750 --> 57:21.390]  I mean...
[57:21.390 --> 57:21.710]  You can.
[57:21.930 --> 57:22.650]  You probably can.
[57:22.750 --> 57:23.350]  Absolutely can.
[57:23.470 --> 57:24.350]  You take a Eurostar.
[57:24.530 --> 57:29.010]  And even the best plans can account for maybe some change.
[57:29.210 --> 57:32.030]  Maybe there's a reason you want to stay somewhere longer.
[57:32.190 --> 57:51.270]  If you have a resource at your fingertips where you can just flip through it that doesn't rely on cell service or foreign, you know, SIMs and stuff, you can just flip through it, change your plans, go get the tickets, make your arrangements, and all of a sudden you're traveling with a different itinerary on the fly.
[57:52.370 --> 57:53.170]  Because you never know.
[57:53.350 --> 57:56.250]  I don't have to worry about airlines, like going through the airlines and changing things.
[57:56.450 --> 58:02.410]  Like, you know, I have a flight from London to Switzerland on, like, Swiss Air and then Switzerland to the country.
[58:02.570 --> 58:04.750]  Rebel, there's a great website I'm going to give you right now.
[58:04.910 --> 58:05.570]  You got a pen?
[58:06.070 --> 58:07.050]  You might already know it.
[58:07.150 --> 58:07.510]  Yes.
[58:07.790 --> 58:07.970]  Okay.
[58:07.970 --> 58:10.110]  It's called seat61.com.
[58:11.070 --> 58:11.410]  Okay?
[58:12.130 --> 58:12.930]  Seat61.com.
[58:13.070 --> 58:18.230]  It's a thorough guide to rail systems all around the world, including prices and possibilities.
[58:18.790 --> 58:20.870]  And you just basically click on any country.
[58:20.870 --> 58:25.290]  This guy will explain how their trains work, how you connect to them, how you get the cheapest ticket.
[58:25.630 --> 58:26.970]  It's just fascinating to read.
[58:27.130 --> 58:29.310]  Even if you don't go, it's fascinating to read this.
[58:31.670 --> 58:32.570]  So check that out.
[58:34.550 --> 58:37.070]  And there are buses, too, that you can, you know...
[58:37.070 --> 58:39.070]  I don't know much about buses, but yeah, there are buses.
[58:41.090 --> 58:41.970]  That's about all I know.
[58:42.750 --> 58:47.510]  Anyway, Rebel, we're going to move on because there are other people who might want to get through and we're almost done tonight.
[58:47.670 --> 58:49.190]  But keep us updated.
[58:50.710 --> 58:51.030]  Yeah.
[58:51.410 --> 58:51.630]  All right.
[58:51.850 --> 58:52.150]  Take care.
[58:52.990 --> 58:53.170]  Okay.
[58:54.390 --> 58:59.810]  I admire his enthusiasm, you know, and I hope he gets to travel a lot.
[58:59.890 --> 59:00.430]  I hope we all do.
[59:01.070 --> 59:01.390]  All right.
[59:01.450 --> 59:02.990]  The calls are coming in fast and furious.
[59:05.770 --> 59:07.270]  I can't see the screen, Kyle.
[59:09.090 --> 59:09.850]  It doesn't matter.
[59:09.990 --> 59:11.110]  We're going to pick up and not who it is.
[59:11.210 --> 59:13.870]  So it's not like it's a guest pass or something like that.
[59:13.950 --> 59:14.690]  I almost hung up.
[59:15.470 --> 59:16.370]  Because of who they are?
[59:16.750 --> 59:20.650]  No, I hit the wrong button because I was trying to show you some information.
[59:20.650 --> 59:24.790]  I just, I like to give you the area code, at least a little hint about where the call is coming from.
[59:24.850 --> 59:24.890]  Yeah.
[59:24.990 --> 59:29.550]  Unfortunately, that caller ID device, when you pivot it, the light glares off it.
[59:29.650 --> 59:29.990]  I know.
[59:29.990 --> 59:30.770]  It's not backlit.
[59:30.970 --> 59:31.290]  Yeah.
[59:31.290 --> 59:31.930]  It's terrible.
[59:32.250 --> 59:32.390]  Old school.
[59:32.610 --> 59:32.930]  Good evening.
[59:33.110 --> 59:34.130]  You're on Off the Oak Overtime.
[59:36.010 --> 59:36.450]  Seriously?
[59:36.850 --> 59:37.210]  Yeah.
[59:37.270 --> 59:37.970]  You're seriously on.
[59:39.110 --> 59:40.310]  Well, hey, Emmanuel.
[59:40.470 --> 59:42.170]  It's good to hear from you and talk to you.
[59:42.430 --> 59:43.770]  This is your old friend, Pam.
[59:44.210 --> 59:44.570]  Hi, Pam.
[59:44.690 --> 59:45.970]  I'm calling in to old...
[59:45.970 --> 59:46.410]  Hey, man.
[59:46.750 --> 59:47.950]  It's nice to hear your voice.
[59:48.090 --> 59:49.230]  And the whole show was great.
[59:49.750 --> 59:49.970]  Thank you.
[59:50.090 --> 59:53.230]  Your old buddy, Red Balaclava, a.k.a.
[59:53.750 --> 59:56.230]  Jeopardy Jim, is really not doing well.
[59:56.510 --> 59:57.270]  So we heard.
[59:57.430 --> 01:00:01.050]  Rob and Alex and Emmanuel, he's much worse.
[01:00:01.050 --> 01:00:04.030]  He's like 123 pounds at six foot five.
[01:00:04.830 --> 01:00:06.250]  His spirits are good.
[01:00:06.270 --> 01:00:08.950]  I sent you all his actual phone number.
[01:00:09.050 --> 01:00:14.010]  You can dial it like an old modem with commas in the middle to get right to his extension and his bed.
[01:00:14.010 --> 01:00:18.570]  I thought that would make everybody, like, giggle a little and then do it.
[01:00:18.670 --> 01:00:23.990]  Is there information you can give to the general public so that...
[01:00:23.990 --> 01:00:25.050]  Yes, absolutely.
[01:00:25.210 --> 01:00:28.010]  He wants me to, and I'm happy to read the number right now.
[01:00:28.010 --> 01:00:28.750]  Go right ahead.
[01:00:29.790 --> 01:00:37.810]  Okay, Jim's direct number is 1-718-205-8100.
[01:00:38.250 --> 01:00:42.070]  His extension is 405.
[01:00:42.410 --> 01:00:47.610]  So you could put comma, comma, 405 and get right to his bed.
[01:00:47.610 --> 01:00:52.110]  Or you can ask the operator for extension 405.
[01:00:52.870 --> 01:00:54.950]  Or Jim Vichensch.
[01:00:55.330 --> 01:00:56.530]  That's his last name.
[01:00:56.570 --> 01:00:57.470]  It's hard to say.
[01:00:57.790 --> 01:01:01.030]  V-I-C-H-E-N-C-H.
[01:01:01.410 --> 01:01:07.030]  He doesn't speak very well, but he absolutely understands everything everybody says.
[01:01:07.550 --> 01:01:09.650]  And he would love to hear from you guys.
[01:01:09.750 --> 01:01:12.750]  Anybody who wants to call him, it doesn't matter who.
[01:01:13.810 --> 01:01:16.370]  He's probably only got two to six months to live.
[01:01:16.490 --> 01:01:17.790]  We'll know more at the end of the month.
[01:01:18.750 --> 01:01:19.190]  But...
[01:01:19.190 --> 01:01:20.070]  That's awful.
[01:01:21.030 --> 01:01:21.630]  Call him.
[01:01:21.770 --> 01:01:22.210]  Please.
[01:01:22.550 --> 01:01:23.370]  Please call him.
[01:01:23.590 --> 01:01:23.810]  Yeah.
[01:01:23.970 --> 01:01:25.150]  He's listening now, too.
[01:01:25.570 --> 01:01:26.010]  Oh, he is?
[01:01:26.170 --> 01:01:26.810]  Shout out to Jim.
[01:01:26.890 --> 01:01:28.150]  He's listening to Overtime.
[01:01:28.950 --> 01:01:30.070]  I sent him...
[01:01:30.070 --> 01:01:31.550]  Yes, I sent him Chinese food.
[01:01:31.690 --> 01:01:33.690]  I always do when he listens to the show.
[01:01:33.910 --> 01:01:38.270]  And I was talking to him, and I said, go watch Overtime.
[01:01:38.450 --> 01:01:39.310]  He has YouTube.
[01:01:39.530 --> 01:01:40.150]  That's what he has.
[01:01:40.270 --> 01:01:41.130]  He doesn't have email.
[01:01:41.550 --> 01:01:42.950]  They didn't install his Twitter.
[01:01:43.310 --> 01:01:45.010]  I'm working with their IT to get it.
[01:01:45.210 --> 01:01:45.590]  But...
[01:01:45.590 --> 01:01:50.230]  So, we'll get email and Twitter and everything else set up for him within the week.
[01:01:50.390 --> 01:01:53.970]  But I was just there, and it's really bad conditions.
[01:01:53.970 --> 01:01:57.110]  And I might actually break him out and just take care of him myself.
[01:01:58.190 --> 01:02:00.270]  And he's allowed to, so it's okay.
[01:02:00.470 --> 01:02:00.690]  Okay.
[01:02:00.910 --> 01:02:02.450]  We won't go into details on that.
[01:02:02.730 --> 01:02:05.990]  But thanks for the information as far as just...
[01:02:05.990 --> 01:02:06.970]  For you, Jim Patench.
[01:02:07.190 --> 01:02:08.450]  And please call him.
[01:02:08.570 --> 01:02:09.390]  Just give him a call.
[01:02:09.570 --> 01:02:10.930]  Shout out on the show.
[01:02:11.090 --> 01:02:11.890]  Whatever you can do.
[01:02:12.850 --> 01:02:15.370]  He would love to hear from anybody who wants to talk to him.
[01:02:15.810 --> 01:02:16.350]  Thank you.
[01:02:16.430 --> 01:02:16.830]  All right, Pam.
[01:02:16.910 --> 01:02:17.590]  Thank you so much.
[01:02:18.470 --> 01:02:18.970]  Hey, man.
[01:02:19.070 --> 01:02:20.050]  Thanks for taking the call.
[01:02:20.330 --> 01:02:20.450]  Of course.
[01:02:20.450 --> 01:02:21.730]  It's been a long time.
[01:02:22.030 --> 01:02:22.310]  Thanks.
[01:02:22.310 --> 01:02:22.430]  All right.
[01:02:22.530 --> 01:02:23.090]  You take care.
[01:02:24.770 --> 01:02:26.570]  Well, that's so sad to hear.
[01:02:27.030 --> 01:02:33.110]  You know, those of you who have listened to the show for a while will remember that Jim was a part of the show for a number of years.
[01:02:34.030 --> 01:02:39.030]  Back in the early 21st century, I think before that as well, he was at the First Hope.
[01:02:39.030 --> 01:02:45.750]  In fact, that's, I think, where we first got to know him as Red Balaclava, the guy who was talking about hacking the MetroCard.
[01:02:46.610 --> 01:02:50.650]  And just has been a part of our lives for so many years after that.
[01:02:50.770 --> 01:03:01.750]  And boy, you know, he had suffered a stroke, continued to come to the radio station, continued to be a part of the hacker community, continued to come to the meetings and to the conferences.
[01:03:03.710 --> 01:03:11.270]  And I'm going to hold out hope that there's some kind of miracle that is in store for him.
[01:03:11.290 --> 01:03:12.170]  He certainly deserves that.
[01:03:12.270 --> 01:03:16.330]  But please reach out if you're able to.
[01:03:16.490 --> 01:03:17.010]  Please reach out.
[01:03:20.050 --> 01:03:26.290]  Adding to that, if I could, is, you know, speaking directly to Jim, you know, we love you.
[01:03:26.430 --> 01:03:26.970]  We miss you.
[01:03:27.890 --> 01:03:39.270]  And I always look fondly on the times, and I thought it was just awesome of him to, when it was so difficult for him to get around and to communicate, to come and meet us for dinner after Off the Hook.
[01:03:39.990 --> 01:03:52.490]  Some really great times where, you know, we're this crazy band of misfits packing into the car, getting in, you know, driving from Brooklyn into Manhattan and walking around, arguing about places to eat and what to drink.
[01:03:52.670 --> 01:03:55.690]  And, you know, those were really good times.
[01:03:56.550 --> 01:04:02.690]  And I know he still has his independent spirit and is still aware of all the things going on around him.
[01:04:02.890 --> 01:04:03.090]  Yeah.
[01:04:03.190 --> 01:04:06.930]  I'll just remind everyone, he was the token Republican on Off the Hook.
[01:04:07.150 --> 01:04:08.090]  So he says.
[01:04:08.310 --> 01:04:14.710]  He would remind people often, and I want people to be very clear that he had a very firm political position.
[01:04:14.730 --> 01:04:18.390]  But, you know, I enjoy talking to him more than other Republicans.
[01:04:18.570 --> 01:04:22.490]  So that's why, you know, it's hard to imagine him in that camp.
[01:04:22.690 --> 01:04:24.790]  Our beloved token Republican.
[01:04:24.790 --> 01:04:25.230]  All right.
[01:04:25.310 --> 01:04:25.910]  We have another phone call.
[01:04:26.050 --> 01:04:26.350]  Good evening.
[01:04:26.530 --> 01:04:27.390]  You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
[01:04:27.490 --> 01:04:27.710]  Go ahead.
[01:04:29.470 --> 01:04:29.830]  Hello.
[01:04:30.110 --> 01:04:30.870]  You're talking to me now.
[01:04:30.950 --> 01:04:31.070]  Yeah.
[01:04:31.150 --> 01:04:31.490]  Talking to you.
[01:04:31.590 --> 01:04:31.790]  Go ahead.
[01:04:32.930 --> 01:04:34.130]  Hey, what's going on, Eric?
[01:04:34.270 --> 01:04:37.730]  This is Adam from Stornybrook Country Corner, WSB.
[01:04:38.010 --> 01:04:40.410]  And I'm now in Germany calling you.
[01:04:40.610 --> 01:04:41.430]  I know who you are.
[01:04:41.530 --> 01:04:41.750]  Okay.
[01:04:41.850 --> 01:04:42.210]  Yes.
[01:04:42.310 --> 01:04:43.250]  How are you doing?
[01:04:44.510 --> 01:04:45.090]  Very well.
[01:04:45.210 --> 01:04:49.970]  This is, uh, I turn on my YouTube and I saw that Off the Hook Overtime was on.
[01:04:49.970 --> 01:04:50.350]  Uh-huh.
[01:04:50.910 --> 01:04:53.350]  And I figured out the number and I called you.
[01:04:53.410 --> 01:04:55.210]  I haven't thought this through, but here we are.
[01:04:55.570 --> 01:04:55.930]  Hello.
[01:04:56.370 --> 01:04:57.130]  How are you doing?
[01:04:58.650 --> 01:04:59.510]  Quite all right.
[01:04:59.790 --> 01:05:00.090]  Uh-huh.
[01:05:00.730 --> 01:05:08.970]  And, uh, this is wild because, uh, I, I've sent you an email about it, but you're kind of a, I don't know if we're allowed to talk about foreign radio stations on WBAI.
[01:05:09.710 --> 01:05:10.130]  Oh, of course.
[01:05:10.190 --> 01:05:11.570]  But we're not on WBAI right now.
[01:05:11.710 --> 01:05:12.090]  We're on YouTube.
[01:05:12.490 --> 01:05:12.850]  Yeah.
[01:05:12.850 --> 01:05:13.570]  Yeah, it's, it's overtime.
[01:05:13.870 --> 01:05:24.810]  Yeah, um, I started, um, uh, I'm in Germany, down in Bavaria, and I started, uh, my Corona project, uh, exactly two years ago was to start an internet radio station here.
[01:05:24.990 --> 01:05:25.290]  Uh-huh.
[01:05:26.150 --> 01:05:31.230]  And, uh, and I started alone, and now we have like 40 people making shows.
[01:05:31.450 --> 01:05:31.790]  Oh, wow.
[01:05:31.950 --> 01:05:36.230]  But very often, late night, we play old brain damages.
[01:05:36.510 --> 01:05:37.010]  Oh, my God.
[01:05:37.190 --> 01:05:39.050]  That we download from 2600.
[01:05:39.810 --> 01:05:40.250]  Wow.
[01:05:40.250 --> 01:05:45.410]  For those who don't know, brain damage is a show that I used to do back in the 1980s and early 90s.
[01:05:45.530 --> 01:05:47.770]  And yeah, it's all available on 2600.com.
[01:05:47.910 --> 01:05:48.610]  Boy, how embarrassing.
[01:05:49.850 --> 01:05:50.250]  Yep.
[01:05:50.470 --> 01:05:56.930]  I did ask your permission at some point, but yeah, we play these old brain damages, let it run.
[01:05:57.470 --> 01:06:10.870]  Um, and you know, they'll talk about, they'll be talking about Tawana Brawley case or just the, the primary election from 1988, uh, or just whatever was going on in the day.
[01:06:11.050 --> 01:06:12.350]  And it's, and it's wild.
[01:06:12.470 --> 01:06:16.090]  There were a lot of Satan, Satan music, uh, on the, you know.
[01:06:16.350 --> 01:06:16.670]  Uh-huh.
[01:06:16.910 --> 01:06:17.150]  Uh-huh.
[01:06:17.910 --> 01:06:19.890]  There was, there was, there was, uh...
[01:06:19.890 --> 01:06:22.350]  People are here, uh, it, they love it.
[01:06:22.550 --> 01:06:23.770]  It's really just wild.
[01:06:24.010 --> 01:06:26.830]  There was a period where we, we, we went Christian for a while.
[01:06:26.950 --> 01:06:28.170]  We did Christian brain damage.
[01:06:28.170 --> 01:06:29.730]  Yeah, we played those too, yeah.
[01:06:30.310 --> 01:06:32.810]  That, that was, uh, I, I felt enlightened.
[01:06:33.010 --> 01:06:33.450]  It was wonderful.
[01:06:33.690 --> 01:06:33.950]  Uh-huh.
[01:06:34.930 --> 01:06:37.210]  It just, it demonstrates the fun you can have.
[01:06:37.350 --> 01:06:38.450]  The fun you can have with radio.
[01:06:38.450 --> 01:06:46.650]  And I think, you know, what, uh, the folks over at WUSB, where we still do a show on Tuesdays, uh, they just, uh, inspired me to be creative.
[01:06:46.710 --> 01:06:50.750]  And a lot of what I do now is, is a direct result of that when I was in college.
[01:06:53.290 --> 01:06:55.970]  It's, it's been an inspiration for us here.
[01:06:55.970 --> 01:07:00.470]  Um, we, we, we do a weekly, uh, local politics show.
[01:07:00.710 --> 01:07:00.990]  Uh-huh.
[01:07:01.570 --> 01:07:06.170]  Um, that, we talk about all the corruption, because corruption's everywhere.
[01:07:06.710 --> 01:07:11.430]  Even in, in the promised land of Europe and Germany, there's corruption everywhere.
[01:07:11.710 --> 01:07:14.970]  You know, we're building a street, but it'll cost three million dollars if you let us.
[01:07:15.130 --> 01:07:17.290]  You know, um, same old stuff.
[01:07:18.050 --> 01:07:25.210]  But, uh, our opening, uh, uh, music to it is, is still the, uh, Philip Glass, uh, your opening.
[01:07:26.430 --> 01:07:26.830]  Wow.
[01:07:27.170 --> 01:07:27.570]  Okay.
[01:07:27.730 --> 01:07:28.790]  We used that, we stole it.
[01:07:28.970 --> 01:07:29.490]  It's wonderful.
[01:07:29.770 --> 01:07:31.790]  From Pauakatsi, I believe, is where that comes from.
[01:07:32.310 --> 01:07:33.030]  That's the one.
[01:07:33.150 --> 01:07:38.510]  But actually, took one where, where you threw lots of effects on and echoes and messed with it.
[01:07:38.630 --> 01:07:38.830]  Yeah.
[01:07:39.150 --> 01:07:41.870]  We, we, we, we cut that out of a brain damage and used that.
[01:07:42.030 --> 01:07:43.130]  It's sort of an homage.
[01:07:43.430 --> 01:07:47.470]  That is so amazing to hear that, uh, that show lives on after so long.
[01:07:47.790 --> 01:07:54.010]  And, uh, you know, that, that's why we, we try to, we try to archive everything because you never know who it's going to speak to years down the road.
[01:07:54.010 --> 01:08:03.630]  I know there are people who listen to shows almost randomly and they, they send an email to us arguing points that we made 30 years ago or, you know, 10 years ago.
[01:08:03.990 --> 01:08:06.490]  And, uh, sometimes they say, Hey, you were right about this.
[01:08:06.610 --> 01:08:07.850]  So this is exactly what happened.
[01:08:07.950 --> 01:08:12.110]  And sometimes we were completely wrong, but it's just, it's fascinating that it still works.
[01:08:12.410 --> 01:08:17.670]  Can you tell people the name of, of your, uh, uh, radio, uh, station or whatever you call it?
[01:08:18.330 --> 01:08:22.010]  Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's called ghost town radio, ghost town radio.
[01:08:22.350 --> 01:08:25.810]  Um, it's based out of Regensburg, Germany.
[01:08:26.090 --> 01:08:26.310]  Okay.
[01:08:26.830 --> 01:08:29.870]  And, uh, ghost, uh, dash Mina, uh, ghost.
[01:08:30.130 --> 01:08:37.430]  Go, I can do this ghost dash town dash, uh, radio, uh, dot D E.
[01:08:38.090 --> 01:08:39.610]  Um, but we're only on live.
[01:08:39.730 --> 01:08:40.530]  We have no archives.
[01:08:40.530 --> 01:08:51.910]  It's live or never, but, uh, and, uh, we have a lot of people who just make shows and, and we do, uh, uh, some live stuff.
[01:08:52.770 --> 01:08:55.410]  Um, we do a lot of live stuff.
[01:08:55.570 --> 01:09:04.690]  Basically for, for two years, my apartment was a radio station and we did almost pirate shows cause everyone had to stay home at night.
[01:09:04.690 --> 01:09:08.410]  Um, but we'd still come here and do these shows.
[01:09:08.410 --> 01:09:09.590]  It was really weird.
[01:09:10.410 --> 01:09:17.450]  And, uh, different guests would come and we'd just hang out all night because you couldn't be on the street after nine o'clock.
[01:09:17.630 --> 01:09:18.990]  It was a lockdown until five in the morning.
[01:09:19.170 --> 01:09:19.310]  Right.
[01:09:19.410 --> 01:09:23.190]  So we were stuck from nine in the morning till five in the morning or nine at night till five in the morning.
[01:09:23.350 --> 01:09:25.170]  And we just do radio all night.
[01:09:25.330 --> 01:09:25.850]  It's great.
[01:09:26.050 --> 01:09:30.490]  It's a, it's an amazing, uh, take calls and, and just play music and talk about it.
[01:09:30.590 --> 01:09:31.030]  It was wild.
[01:09:31.270 --> 01:09:32.810]  It was a pretty punk rock.
[01:09:32.810 --> 01:09:50.810]  What's so fantastic about what you're saying is that this is not, it's, there's elements of it that are very, um, very vintage, very old school kind of, um, I'm hearing like last century stuff about this where it's, uh, uh, lockdowns or curfews or, you know,
[01:09:50.910 --> 01:09:55.850]  and, and, uh, people are just, uh, uh, seeking that, that comfort in the radio.
[01:09:55.850 --> 01:10:01.210]  But what's fascinating too, is how, um, so many other elements can be connected.
[01:10:01.210 --> 01:10:18.270]  I mean, much in the way we have calls here or in the radio stations, but being able to, um, tell those stories to people in all kinds of places, uh, over the internet, but also bring in people, bring in stories, bring in, um, other forms of technology and,
[01:10:18.270 --> 01:10:25.350]  and, uh, story storytelling, things that augment that storytelling is fascinating because we have so much more that we can connect up and do now.
[01:10:25.550 --> 01:10:29.110]  So I love that you're, you're playing and, and, and exploring this medium.
[01:10:30.290 --> 01:10:31.190]  Well, we did it.
[01:10:31.270 --> 01:10:31.790]  Yeah, we did it.
[01:10:31.830 --> 01:10:32.890]  You know, we could take calls.
[01:10:33.070 --> 01:10:34.610]  I figured out a way to wire that in.
[01:10:34.790 --> 01:10:37.250]  And then we could take Facebook calls or whatever.
[01:10:37.830 --> 01:10:41.030]  We will, you know, we'd always expand what we could do.
[01:10:41.550 --> 01:10:47.970]  And then, you know, we're in Germany, we have shows that are being made from Northern Germany and Switzerland and Sweden.
[01:10:48.170 --> 01:10:49.510]  Some people jumped in.
[01:10:49.610 --> 01:10:51.450]  They found us and made their own show.
[01:10:51.550 --> 01:10:52.290]  It's pretty cool.
[01:10:52.510 --> 01:10:54.270]  And you get listeners from all around the world?
[01:10:55.410 --> 01:10:55.770]  Yeah.
[01:10:56.210 --> 01:10:57.950]  But most of it, most of it's local.
[01:10:58.110 --> 01:10:58.870]  Most of it's in Germany.
[01:10:59.030 --> 01:11:00.090]  But, you know, you'd be surprised.
[01:11:00.250 --> 01:11:03.050]  I can see where the, there's people who pop in from everywhere.
[01:11:03.270 --> 01:11:03.610]  It's cool.
[01:11:03.870 --> 01:11:11.110]  Now, I know you said that you don't keep archives, but, but, you know, you're taking shows from the 1980s that I did and using them.
[01:11:11.550 --> 01:11:13.050]  Somebody could do the same thing with you.
[01:11:13.190 --> 01:11:15.430]  So I, I suggest you, uh, you keep archives.
[01:11:16.150 --> 01:11:17.550]  I know I keep archives.
[01:11:17.770 --> 01:11:20.270]  I've recorded every second we've ever, we've ever broadcast.
[01:11:20.710 --> 01:11:20.890]  Okay.
[01:11:20.990 --> 01:11:30.230]  Because of the way things are here, um, with, um, um, I can't have archives because then you have to pay.
[01:11:30.750 --> 01:11:32.910]  Um, I can't have it on our site.
[01:11:34.010 --> 01:11:35.570]  Because, because of the hosting.
[01:11:36.090 --> 01:11:36.170]  Music.
[01:11:36.530 --> 01:11:36.550]  Yeah.
[01:11:36.710 --> 01:11:37.410]  Copyrighted music.
[01:11:37.610 --> 01:11:39.430]  And Germany is actually really strict with this stuff.
[01:11:39.730 --> 01:11:40.250]  Extremely strict.
[01:11:40.270 --> 01:11:40.450]  Yeah.
[01:11:40.570 --> 01:11:46.210]  You notice that on YouTube, sometimes things are available to every country except Germany because they have, they have strict laws.
[01:11:46.370 --> 01:11:46.870]  Yeah, it's really bad.
[01:11:47.130 --> 01:11:53.890]  But like, uh, you know, I, I intend to, to load, you know, load it up to the, uh, internet archive, which I'm a big fan of.
[01:11:53.970 --> 01:11:54.250]  Yes.
[01:11:54.410 --> 01:11:55.370]  And just get it up there.
[01:11:55.710 --> 01:11:56.090]  Uh-huh.
[01:11:56.090 --> 01:11:57.790]  Or, or, or just make our own archive.
[01:11:57.910 --> 01:12:03.050]  We, you know, we, we have now just tons of time, um, that'll come.
[01:12:03.290 --> 01:12:10.070]  But right now, it's also my philosophy, the problem, we, we do radio and, and people always ask us, do you have archives?
[01:12:10.330 --> 01:12:11.250]  I say no.
[01:12:11.470 --> 01:12:16.930]  Because right now, uh, the idea is, you know, you listen live or you don't.
[01:12:17.090 --> 01:12:17.310]  Mm-hmm.
[01:12:17.310 --> 01:12:20.370]  And as soon as people know, oh, I can listen later.
[01:12:20.370 --> 01:12:24.610]  And then they, then I know they won't listen now and they won't listen later.
[01:12:24.810 --> 01:12:25.050]  Okay.
[01:12:25.250 --> 01:12:25.350]  Yeah.
[01:12:25.350 --> 01:12:28.150]  If we're talking in a, in a time span of weeks, you know what I mean?
[01:12:28.330 --> 01:12:31.210]  That's a, that's a valid, uh, uh, approach.
[01:12:31.430 --> 01:12:38.370]  And it's, it's, um, uh, I mean, it makes people, uh, uh, uh, it's a style.
[01:12:38.490 --> 01:12:40.250]  I think it's a stylistic choice almost, right?
[01:12:41.010 --> 01:12:41.690]  Oh, definitely.
[01:12:41.930 --> 01:12:42.230]  Totally.
[01:12:42.650 --> 01:12:47.670]  The, the live, uh, warmness of radio, just, we're all talking to each other.
[01:12:47.850 --> 01:12:48.350]  We're all here.
[01:12:48.370 --> 01:12:49.710]  It's a shared experience.
[01:12:50.450 --> 01:12:53.750]  Um, and there's not that much left of that in the world these days.
[01:12:53.970 --> 01:12:54.150]  So.
[01:12:54.890 --> 01:12:55.510]  Very true.
[01:12:55.890 --> 01:12:56.210]  Very true.
[01:12:56.450 --> 01:12:58.530]  We catch it together or we don't catch it at all.
[01:12:59.350 --> 01:13:04.710]  And then, you know, in a few years, I'll load it up, you know, I'll get it out there.
[01:13:05.090 --> 01:13:07.570]  But right now, day to day.
[01:13:07.770 --> 01:13:08.050]  Mm-hmm.
[01:13:09.210 --> 01:13:14.430]  Because I really, I really believe, yeah, as soon as they, people know, yeah, you can listen to it at your convenience.
[01:13:14.750 --> 01:13:15.930]  Then their convenience is never.
[01:13:17.230 --> 01:13:21.850]  Interesting, because that is how a lot of, um, uh, a lot of, uh, stations operate.
[01:13:21.990 --> 01:13:28.210]  They do have archives, but I, I see your point where, you know, if you want people to listen live, that might dissuade them from doing that.
[01:13:28.330 --> 01:13:33.690]  My, my only advice is just make sure you have backups of all those archives because, you know, media always goes bad.
[01:13:33.690 --> 01:13:36.110]  I have two hard drives in two different houses.
[01:13:36.410 --> 01:13:36.610]  Good.
[01:13:36.770 --> 01:13:36.930]  Okay.
[01:13:38.050 --> 01:13:44.130]  Now, do you, do you do regular scheduling or are, um, like, are there regular programs?
[01:13:44.270 --> 01:13:46.850]  Because that may, may make it also a little bit easier.
[01:13:47.110 --> 01:13:54.230]  And in other words, places that are archiving people are, maybe can't actually listen to one or the other program in the grid, so to speak.
[01:13:55.630 --> 01:14:00.130]  Well, individual DJs can, can load and they can do whatever they want with their show.
[01:14:00.130 --> 01:14:03.490]  You know, that's fine, but we, we did a hybrid thing.
[01:14:03.590 --> 01:14:06.150]  Cause really, we had a really hard lockdown here in Germany.
[01:14:06.650 --> 01:14:10.050]  Like it was, or at least in Bavaria, we were the hardest there was.
[01:14:10.290 --> 01:14:14.990]  We had six months where you just, you could only have one person at your house.
[01:14:15.210 --> 01:14:26.390]  Uh, everything was closed for six months, uh, back in 20, you know, fall of 2020 to the, the spring of 2021, you just couldn't have guests.
[01:14:26.470 --> 01:14:28.870]  You couldn't do anything, uh, for six months.
[01:14:29.910 --> 01:14:40.750]  And so we did, our format was, I would do live shows out of my place, but everyone else like, um, Hey, you make a radio show, send me your hour, record it.
[01:14:41.050 --> 01:14:45.170]  You've got to, you've got to talk and tell us what music you're playing or whatever you're doing.
[01:14:45.290 --> 01:14:51.330]  And you send me, um, uh, a wave file and I'll program it in, in your slot.
[01:14:51.770 --> 01:14:58.110]  So basically they were recorded podcasts, um, but in a schedule that everyone was listening to.
[01:14:58.310 --> 01:15:08.930]  And the thing was also, because I, I'm paying the fees for music we can actually use because people were using Twitch and YouTube for a little while until they said, Nope, copyrighted music, you're out, you know?
[01:15:09.650 --> 01:15:18.850]  Um, and so here everyone, you know, they would do their show, you know, once a week we'd have the punk rock show and we'd have the, we'd have the, the, the grindcore show and all these people, their thing.
[01:15:18.990 --> 01:15:27.110]  And they, I, they had to, you know, do it like a radio show, but they send me the hour and I plug it into their, to their hour, you know?
[01:15:27.850 --> 01:15:29.670]  And, uh, that's how we did it for a long time.
[01:15:29.670 --> 01:15:32.610]  And then the live shows would come out of my apartment.
[01:15:33.130 --> 01:15:33.810]  That's great.
[01:15:33.950 --> 01:15:40.510]  Especially under the circumstance that really probably complimented, um, what people were going through and that intimacy.
[01:15:40.910 --> 01:15:45.550]  And, uh, it's seems like it's created, it's, uh, become a real community for you.
[01:15:46.530 --> 01:15:47.350]  Oh, totally.
[01:15:47.470 --> 01:15:48.830]  I was, I was shocked.
[01:15:48.950 --> 01:15:49.570]  It was really cool.
[01:15:49.930 --> 01:15:54.270]  Um, and, uh, yeah, I started really alone to two friends, three shows.
[01:15:55.110 --> 01:15:58.890]  And then in two weeks it was every day because people just jumped in.
[01:15:58.890 --> 01:15:59.390]  Uh-huh.
[01:15:59.390 --> 01:16:00.130]  And now they're all addicted.
[01:16:00.690 --> 01:16:01.530]  That's amazing.
[01:16:01.690 --> 01:16:02.050]  They make shows.
[01:16:02.670 --> 01:16:07.270]  You know, maybe someday over there they'll give you a frequency you can broadcast over the actual airwaves.
[01:16:08.530 --> 01:16:09.670]  No, no, no.
[01:16:09.750 --> 01:16:10.510]  I'd never want one.
[01:16:10.730 --> 01:16:11.370]  You wouldn't want that?
[01:16:11.670 --> 01:16:15.950]  Um, because here it's, it's, it's so regulated.
[01:16:16.210 --> 01:16:20.870]  It's so, every 10 minutes I have to tell you what the weather's going to be.
[01:16:21.010 --> 01:16:21.430]  It's...
[01:16:21.430 --> 01:16:21.650]  Really?
[01:16:21.790 --> 01:16:26.770]  There's no, like, free radio, um, freedom here.
[01:16:27.130 --> 01:16:28.430]  Um, I don't know.
[01:16:28.430 --> 01:16:29.090]  Well, I mean...
[01:16:29.090 --> 01:16:30.250]  Everything is tightly controlled.
[01:16:30.550 --> 01:16:30.770]  Really?
[01:16:30.770 --> 01:16:33.350]  The public airwaves are, it's no fun at all.
[01:16:33.890 --> 01:16:41.190]  I, I, I'd like to know more about that because I always had the impression that pretty much every place, you know, you could broadcast more things than you can here in the States.
[01:16:41.190 --> 01:16:43.710]  So maybe everyone just has that perception of their country.
[01:16:44.850 --> 01:16:46.690]  Yeah, no, and Germany's terrible.
[01:16:47.010 --> 01:16:47.230]  Huh.
[01:16:47.490 --> 01:16:57.790]  Um, yeah, you know, because they really have to make sure that they, it's not as free here as it, on paper it's free, but not at all.
[01:16:58.090 --> 01:17:00.090]  The media here is very top down.
[01:17:00.290 --> 01:17:01.630]  We'll take care of you.
[01:17:01.750 --> 01:17:04.230]  It's, you know, it's all basically BBC stuff.
[01:17:04.510 --> 01:17:06.750]  Uh, yeah, but that's, that's the public channels.
[01:17:06.750 --> 01:17:08.670]  What about, what about commercial channels?
[01:17:08.910 --> 01:17:10.610]  Are they, they have to do the same thing?
[01:17:10.750 --> 01:17:11.250]  Oh, they're terrible.
[01:17:11.430 --> 01:17:12.130]  They're, they're the worst.
[01:17:12.310 --> 01:17:12.510]  Uh-huh.
[01:17:12.990 --> 01:17:18.930]  Um, but they still, you know, every 15 minutes, they're going to give you a little bit of news and they just have to do all this stuff.
[01:17:20.470 --> 01:17:21.110]  And, oh.
[01:17:21.130 --> 01:17:22.690]  All right, then a pirate frequency.
[01:17:22.690 --> 01:17:23.470]  Let's do that.
[01:17:24.230 --> 01:17:25.550]  Just not obey any rules.
[01:17:25.630 --> 01:17:27.230]  I'd love to, man, but I'm not messing with it.
[01:17:27.410 --> 01:17:28.890]  They'll find me in a heartbeat, man.
[01:17:29.010 --> 01:17:29.410]  That's true.
[01:17:29.570 --> 01:17:29.710]  Yeah.
[01:17:30.590 --> 01:17:32.090]  Well, I'm glad you're doing what you're doing.
[01:17:32.090 --> 01:17:33.070]  Right now the internet works.
[01:17:33.170 --> 01:17:34.310]  You can throw it on your cell phone.
[01:17:34.450 --> 01:17:38.910]  You can, I do love the idea of, uh, of real radio where you can hear it wherever you are.
[01:17:39.070 --> 01:17:39.970]  It's in the air around you.
[01:17:40.090 --> 01:17:45.750]  But right now with, with Wi-Fi and just with cell phone stuff, you can listen wherever you are, man.
[01:17:45.990 --> 01:17:46.490]  That's true.
[01:17:46.650 --> 01:17:47.270]  And you know what?
[01:17:47.270 --> 01:17:50.430]  You can rebroadcast it over your airwaves somewhere.
[01:17:51.410 --> 01:17:53.210]  So that's, that's always the magic of radio.
[01:17:54.730 --> 01:17:56.930]  Yeah, no, it's, it was, it's really cool.
[01:17:56.930 --> 01:18:03.210]  And, and that's the thing over here in Germany, they don't really have a community radio, um, tradition.
[01:18:04.390 --> 01:18:05.490]  They don't have that.
[01:18:06.550 --> 01:18:10.970]  Um, and that's why a lot of people jumped in and they were like, what, I can just do a show?
[01:18:11.670 --> 01:18:12.030]  Yeah.
[01:18:12.210 --> 01:18:13.090]  You know, whatever I want.
[01:18:13.230 --> 01:18:13.610]  I'm like, yeah.
[01:18:13.910 --> 01:18:15.050]  So I can play whatever I want.
[01:18:15.170 --> 01:18:15.630]  Like, yeah.
[01:18:16.270 --> 01:18:17.010]  That's really cool.
[01:18:17.110 --> 01:18:17.650]  You have to talk.
[01:18:17.810 --> 01:18:19.070]  It's not a Spotify playlist.
[01:18:19.230 --> 01:18:22.250]  You have to talk and, you know, tell us why.
[01:18:22.570 --> 01:18:24.690]  And, you know, so the personality.
[01:18:24.690 --> 01:18:28.930]  So Adam, I'm going to ask you, I'm going to ask you to give out the, um, none of that.
[01:18:29.030 --> 01:18:30.550]  They don't have the bottom of the dial.
[01:18:30.870 --> 01:18:31.090]  Right.
[01:18:31.390 --> 01:18:32.250]  Um, college.
[01:18:32.950 --> 01:18:34.430]  They don't have that here at all.
[01:18:35.090 --> 01:18:41.850]  I'm going to ask you to give out the address one more time and, and, and tell us, uh, are you on the air 24 seven or what hours you are at all?
[01:18:42.070 --> 01:18:42.390]  Okay.
[01:18:42.470 --> 01:18:43.730]  So what hours can people hear you?
[01:18:43.810 --> 01:18:46.430]  Right now on a week, because I do everything.
[01:18:46.430 --> 01:18:58.070]  So we're, we're doing a break till Easter, but it's, um, ghost dash town dash, uh, radio dot D E Deutschlands, you know, Germany.
[01:18:58.410 --> 01:19:07.230]  We, we usually broadcast, we, we broadcast our shows live in the evening here, which we afternoon at you by, you know, in your time zone.
[01:19:07.390 --> 01:19:08.630]  And then we repeat it the next day.
[01:19:09.470 --> 01:19:13.490]  Um, but the, every day I post the schedule for that day.
[01:19:13.850 --> 01:19:20.710]  So I see you call yourselves the moral airwaves, the moral airwaves.
[01:19:20.910 --> 01:19:23.810]  Actually right now, wait, let me check, let me check my website.
[01:19:24.250 --> 01:19:26.030]  What is, are we still the moral airwaves?
[01:19:26.090 --> 01:19:26.750]  That's what it says.
[01:19:26.950 --> 01:19:27.530]  The moral airwaves.
[01:19:27.630 --> 01:19:31.530]  But right now, actually our, our, our motto is culturally appropriate.
[01:19:32.110 --> 01:19:32.510]  Okay.
[01:19:33.050 --> 01:19:33.450]  Wow.
[01:19:34.190 --> 01:19:35.270]  I love the typeface.
[01:19:35.670 --> 01:19:36.510]  We change it every month.
[01:19:36.690 --> 01:19:36.970]  Uh huh.
[01:19:37.550 --> 01:19:38.130]  Well, good.
[01:19:38.290 --> 01:19:38.450]  Good.
[01:19:39.250 --> 01:19:40.550]  Adam, it was great hearing from you.
[01:19:40.730 --> 01:19:41.710]  It's a really cool thing.
[01:19:41.890 --> 01:19:44.370]  And we got people just jumping in and doing stuff.
[01:19:44.910 --> 01:19:52.670]  I, you know, it's amazing that, you know, you're from, you're from the local area on Long Island and, uh, here you are in Germany now, uh, doing radio over there.
[01:19:53.150 --> 01:19:54.610]  Uh, it's, it's, it's incredible.
[01:19:57.090 --> 01:19:57.690]  Oh yeah.
[01:19:57.970 --> 01:20:02.550]  I, I caught the bug, you know, you know, from my dad, he did radio at WSB a long time too.
[01:20:02.730 --> 01:20:06.390]  I remember the classical show, the classical shows that he did were, were, were phenomenal.
[01:20:07.570 --> 01:20:07.970]  Yeah.
[01:20:07.970 --> 01:20:09.310]  That was, he was top notch.
[01:20:09.550 --> 01:20:16.650]  We've actually played some of them and they were a big hit here too, cause I have a bunch of his cassettes and we actually did classical Mondays for a while.
[01:20:16.750 --> 01:20:17.030]  Oh wow.
[01:20:17.110 --> 01:20:20.770]  Where every Monday we play like one side of a tape cause he recorded everything as well.
[01:20:20.870 --> 01:20:21.170]  Uh huh.
[01:20:21.170 --> 01:20:22.330]  We just played one side.
[01:20:22.550 --> 01:20:34.630]  So for a month, for a month we played the Schubert special, which is a three hour show, but it takes, uh, four sides, you know, you know, every, every, every Monday, 45 minutes of it, you know?
[01:20:34.810 --> 01:20:35.150]  Uh huh.
[01:20:35.150 --> 01:20:37.210]  And, uh, people loved it.
[01:20:37.690 --> 01:20:38.130]  Yeah.
[01:20:38.270 --> 01:20:41.270]  He was incredibly popular, uh, on Long Island.
[01:20:41.610 --> 01:20:42.090]  Absolutely.
[01:20:43.650 --> 01:20:43.790]  Wow.
[01:20:43.790 --> 01:20:49.090]  But also, yeah, your, your brain damage is also just the people call like, wow, this is so amazing.
[01:20:49.090 --> 01:20:53.190]  Just how free it was, how the people would talk and call the children would talk.
[01:20:53.190 --> 01:20:56.550]  And also the politics, like, you know, it's amazing.
[01:20:56.670 --> 01:21:09.690]  Even back then it was, you know, dude, a lot of the calls are really reactionary, um, or really just really just, you know, really totally offensive, like, wow.
[01:21:10.110 --> 01:21:16.430]  But instead of freaking out and say, and, and calling them enough, you're like, yeah, you'd ask them like, oh yeah, why do you think that?
[01:21:16.550 --> 01:21:16.790]  Okay.
[01:21:16.930 --> 01:21:17.230]  Where are you?
[01:21:17.550 --> 01:21:25.070]  And it was with tongue in cheek and you let them dig their own grave and all pretty much and just the act of letting them talk about it.
[01:21:25.290 --> 01:21:27.850]  Then suddenly they weren't so angry as when they started.
[01:21:28.130 --> 01:21:28.730]  That's true.
[01:21:28.750 --> 01:21:31.770]  It was a really wild show.
[01:21:32.090 --> 01:21:32.550]  Mm-hmm.
[01:21:33.310 --> 01:21:36.250]  Well, it's bringing back a lot of memories just hearing you describe it.
[01:21:36.410 --> 01:21:37.530]  So, um, wow.
[01:21:37.690 --> 01:21:38.630]  I'm glad it had that effect.
[01:21:38.730 --> 01:21:50.050]  And the best part is always the, uh, concert billboard right at the beginning, just to hear what was playing at the Roseland, you know, uh, April 2nd, 1991, you know?
[01:21:50.290 --> 01:21:50.770]  Right, right.
[01:21:51.790 --> 01:21:53.610]  The concert billboard was ridiculous.
[01:21:53.890 --> 01:21:58.230]  What, how, how it was so, it was just every night was bands you've heard of.
[01:21:58.450 --> 01:21:58.770]  Crazy.
[01:21:59.170 --> 01:21:59.430]  Uh-huh.
[01:22:00.090 --> 01:22:07.290]  Well, the way to get to it, just go to 2600.com and, um, hover over the radio selection and you'll see an other selection.
[01:22:07.430 --> 01:22:09.070]  Click on that and you'll see brain damage.
[01:22:09.170 --> 01:22:13.650]  You can listen to every episode and, uh, relive the eighties and the nineties.
[01:22:13.830 --> 01:22:13.930]  Check them out.
[01:22:14.050 --> 01:22:14.790]  They're so wild.
[01:22:15.590 --> 01:22:15.970]  Wow.
[01:22:16.270 --> 01:22:17.330]  Well, thank you so much, Adam.
[01:22:17.450 --> 01:22:18.190]  It was great hearing from you.
[01:22:18.190 --> 01:22:21.010]  I hope, uh, you come back to, uh, the States at some point or maybe...
[01:22:21.010 --> 01:22:21.850]  I'll be back in July.
[01:22:21.850 --> 01:22:22.470]  I'll let you know.
[01:22:22.630 --> 01:22:23.930]  And just, I'll ask you here.
[01:22:24.250 --> 01:22:29.470]  Um, at one point, um, I'd love to have you as a guest on our radio live.
[01:22:29.610 --> 01:22:30.570]  The people would love it.
[01:22:30.710 --> 01:22:31.070]  Absolutely.
[01:22:31.270 --> 01:22:31.590]  Absolutely.
[01:22:31.850 --> 01:22:32.010]  Definitely.
[01:22:32.250 --> 01:22:32.910]  We'll work that out.
[01:22:33.270 --> 01:22:36.610]  And maybe when you're in New York, you can, you can, uh, you can come to our...
[01:22:36.610 --> 01:22:38.270]  Thanks for taking my call and keep doing what you do.
[01:22:38.370 --> 01:22:38.990]  This is fantastic.
[01:22:39.270 --> 01:22:39.390]  All right.
[01:22:39.390 --> 01:22:42.050]  Maybe we'll see you at the Hope Conference when, uh, you come to New York in July.
[01:22:42.050 --> 01:22:43.590]  So, uh, look forward to that.
[01:22:43.830 --> 01:22:45.850]  And Joe, uh, what's the date on that?
[01:22:46.010 --> 01:22:48.050]  Uh, the 22nd through the 24th.
[01:22:49.550 --> 01:22:50.750]  I might just be there.
[01:22:50.850 --> 01:22:51.110]  Okay.
[01:22:51.250 --> 01:22:51.930]  And then I'll show up.
[01:22:52.010 --> 01:22:52.450]  That'll be great.
[01:22:52.550 --> 01:22:53.790]  Hope.net, all the details.
[01:22:53.990 --> 01:22:56.890]  But, uh, great hearing from you and, um, and keep the spirit alive.
[01:22:58.510 --> 01:22:58.830]  Always.
[01:22:59.050 --> 01:22:59.270]  All right.
[01:22:59.490 --> 01:23:00.750]  First station of the 90s, baby.
[01:23:01.210 --> 01:23:02.830]  Good night, good luck, sleep well, dream well.
[01:23:02.990 --> 01:23:03.290]  All right.
[01:23:03.470 --> 01:23:03.770]  Be well.
[01:23:05.210 --> 01:23:05.530]  Okay.
[01:23:05.530 --> 01:23:06.410]  That's going to be the last call.
[01:23:06.630 --> 01:23:08.970]  I know that we have a lot of calls coming in, but, uh...
[01:23:08.970 --> 01:23:09.930]  That was awesome.
[01:23:12.050 --> 01:23:13.290]  It was awesome to hear from him.
[01:23:13.370 --> 01:23:13.590]  Yes.
[01:23:13.830 --> 01:23:16.350]  And, uh, be thrust back into that.
[01:23:16.430 --> 01:23:19.230]  Well, just, you realize you don't know who's out there, you know?
[01:23:19.390 --> 01:23:20.630]  And who you have an effect on.
[01:23:21.490 --> 01:23:25.570]  That was, uh, that was like being, uh, retweeted from the 80s or something.
[01:23:25.750 --> 01:23:26.950]  You remember Brain Damage, right, Alex?
[01:23:27.530 --> 01:23:28.450]  Yeah, I remember it.
[01:23:28.510 --> 01:23:28.950]  I do.
[01:23:29.150 --> 01:23:29.510]  Uh-huh.
[01:23:29.510 --> 01:23:29.570]  Yeah.
[01:23:30.110 --> 01:23:35.290]  And, and I love that he brought up the concert billboard, because I can hear it in my head now.
[01:23:35.470 --> 01:23:35.630]  Uh-huh.
[01:23:35.630 --> 01:23:37.610]  And I haven't heard it in 20-something years.
[01:23:37.630 --> 01:23:40.110]  And, I mean, I remember that from the 90s.
[01:23:40.110 --> 01:23:43.730]  The concert billboard on WUSB was amazing.
[01:23:44.570 --> 01:23:47.130]  And wasn't it Christina that recorded it?
[01:23:47.230 --> 01:23:48.850]  Well, it had a whole bunch of different people who did it.
[01:23:49.450 --> 01:23:49.850]  Yeah.
[01:23:49.890 --> 01:23:51.990]  But basically, it's people listing concerts that are playing.
[01:23:52.170 --> 01:23:55.930]  I guess that's entertaining now to hear what, what and who was playing where.
[01:23:56.350 --> 01:24:00.290]  But, but it was how you learned about who was playing where back then, too.
[01:24:00.410 --> 01:24:01.370]  You listened to the radio.
[01:24:01.370 --> 01:24:07.190]  You know, somebody told you that, you know, at the Roseland or the Wetlands was this band or that band.
[01:24:07.190 --> 01:24:09.390]  And it was Long Island and it was the city.
[01:24:10.050 --> 01:24:14.070]  So, you know, it was, it covered a very wide geographic area.
[01:24:14.530 --> 01:24:17.390]  I, I, yeah, I would love to hear the concert billboard again.
[01:24:17.490 --> 01:24:20.570]  Well, you can just go to the website and click on one of those shows.
[01:24:20.750 --> 01:24:23.510]  And, and we have shows, we have shows that are even earlier than that.
[01:24:23.670 --> 01:24:25.550]  Voice of Long Island was the early 80s.
[01:24:25.550 --> 01:24:27.850]  So, oh boy, it's a real trip down memory lane.
[01:24:28.010 --> 01:24:30.630]  It'd be interesting to just have a, you know, a podcast.
[01:24:30.790 --> 01:24:31.430]  We're not taking that.
[01:24:31.510 --> 01:24:32.110]  I'm sorry, caller.
[01:24:32.310 --> 01:24:33.010]  We're not taking that.
[01:24:34.330 --> 01:24:36.410]  You know, I think that would be amazing.
[01:24:37.410 --> 01:24:40.970]  But before we sign off though, I do want to explain something.
[01:24:41.130 --> 01:24:46.550]  If we have a few minutes because I left hanging out there that I was a defendant today in court.
[01:24:46.670 --> 01:24:47.130]  Oh yeah, yeah.
[01:24:47.230 --> 01:24:47.690]  Tell us more.
[01:24:47.890 --> 01:24:48.430]  What did you do?
[01:24:48.830 --> 01:24:49.950]  What were you alleged to have done?
[01:24:50.850 --> 01:25:00.170]  So I have, I got a, I got a ticket, a traffic ticket over two years ago, you know, right before COVID started.
[01:25:00.350 --> 01:25:00.610]  Wow.
[01:25:00.850 --> 01:25:00.970]  Right.
[01:25:02.070 --> 01:25:02.990]  When was it?
[01:25:03.150 --> 01:25:09.550]  It was, you know, it was in late February or kind of mid February, I guess, of 2020.
[01:25:10.130 --> 01:25:14.270]  And I was, I was going over the Williamsburg bridge where I was about to go over the Williamsburg bridge.
[01:25:14.270 --> 01:25:22.470]  And I, uh, I got pulled over for not having a front license plate on my car, you know, and I bought the car in Pennsylvania where you don't need it.
[01:25:22.590 --> 01:25:23.770]  So they didn't have the hardware there.
[01:25:23.910 --> 01:25:26.090]  And I'd been driving it around for a really long time.
[01:25:26.210 --> 01:25:27.690]  Then never had a front license plate.
[01:25:27.750 --> 01:25:32.750]  So this cop, this particular day decided, uh, well, you know, that was it.
[01:25:32.890 --> 01:25:36.130]  And then it was my turn to get a ticket for not having a front license plate.
[01:25:36.210 --> 01:25:37.210]  Hang on one second, Alex.
[01:25:37.330 --> 01:25:39.310]  Is it Pennsylvania plates or New York plates?
[01:25:40.210 --> 01:25:41.070]  New York plates.
[01:25:41.290 --> 01:25:45.170]  Well, I'm going to have to side with the cop on that because New York, you do require fire on both sides.
[01:25:45.690 --> 01:25:47.030]  But how did he wait for the car?
[01:25:47.310 --> 01:25:50.910]  Did he wait for the car to pass by and check to see if it was New York or Pennsylvania?
[01:25:52.190 --> 01:25:52.550]  Probably.
[01:25:53.210 --> 01:25:53.550]  Yeah.
[01:25:53.650 --> 01:25:57.410]  Well, I mean, he did come up from the, you know, behind me.
[01:25:57.590 --> 01:26:00.310]  So yeah, it was right before I got on the bridge.
[01:26:00.450 --> 01:26:05.910]  So I almost escaped to Brooklyn, you know, where of course I have no jurisdiction.
[01:26:06.130 --> 01:26:06.210]  Right.
[01:26:06.790 --> 01:26:13.990]  But, uh, so any of it, so he, he gives me this ticket, he writes me a ticket, tells me why, you know, turns his body cam on.
[01:26:13.990 --> 01:26:16.370]  And all this, you know, makes a big spectacle, the whole thing.
[01:26:17.130 --> 01:26:21.490]  And, uh, and I, and I have to say the guy was just such a jerk.
[01:26:21.830 --> 01:26:28.270]  He was really, you know, uh, arrogant, you know, nasty, kept me waiting for forever.
[01:26:28.270 --> 01:26:31.790]  And I'm going out to Brooklyn to do this training thing, this surveillance thing.
[01:26:31.910 --> 01:26:36.730]  And, um, in any event, he, uh, he comes back and he's nasty.
[01:26:36.890 --> 01:26:38.010]  I get the, get the fricking ticket.
[01:26:38.190 --> 01:26:39.270]  And I decided, you know what?
[01:26:40.490 --> 01:26:49.770]  Uh, I'm going to contest the ticket and try to see if I can negotiate it down because I, I think it was going to be a moving violation, which would then increase my insurance and all this.
[01:26:49.970 --> 01:26:51.850]  And, you know, it would be a pretty significant fine.
[01:26:52.130 --> 01:26:53.750]  So I was like, forget this, you know?
[01:26:54.170 --> 01:26:56.970]  So I, I, uh, I pleaded not guilty.
[01:26:57.290 --> 01:27:02.210]  I was going to try to negotiate the fee and then, uh, COVID hit.
[01:27:02.890 --> 01:27:06.510]  So the hearing was pushed back and then COVID got worse.
[01:27:06.510 --> 01:27:09.130]  It was pushed back and it was pushed back like three or four times.
[01:27:09.410 --> 01:27:16.210]  And then I rescheduled it and rescheduled it until finally today was the day where I had this hearing and it was online.
[01:27:16.950 --> 01:27:28.770]  And so I show up for this online hearing, uh, on time because your driver's license will be suspended if you fail to show up for this online hearing, which seems insane.
[01:27:29.010 --> 01:27:33.010]  You know, if you can't get WebEx to work, you're, you're going to lose your driver's license.
[01:27:34.110 --> 01:27:37.850]  So I, uh, I show up to the online hearing and you're, you're just waiting there.
[01:27:38.150 --> 01:27:39.170]  It's dot, dot, dot.
[01:27:39.350 --> 01:27:46.170]  Your hearing will begin momentarily, dot, dot, dot, you know, on, on a website and it's not refreshing or you don't have a queue number.
[01:27:46.350 --> 01:27:47.030]  You have no idea.
[01:27:47.150 --> 01:27:56.810]  You're just, you have faith that this website is ultimately going to refresh and bring you to a page where magically you're going to have a virtual hearing about your ticket.
[01:27:57.650 --> 01:28:08.350]  Um, and there was some, there was some message that had a timestamp from, like 12 hours before that instructed you to, uh, download WebEx.
[01:28:08.550 --> 01:28:10.410]  So I put WebEx on as the client.
[01:28:10.910 --> 01:28:21.110]  Finally, after waiting like 25 minutes without any kind of counter, the page indicates that it's now going to redirect me to the hearing and the hearing is going to begin.
[01:28:21.110 --> 01:28:24.290]  Um, and then it forces a download of WebEx.
[01:28:24.410 --> 01:28:29.690]  So if you don't have it installed, you install it then while everybody's waiting for your hearing.
[01:28:30.310 --> 01:28:32.370]  Um, but I had it installed.
[01:28:32.530 --> 01:28:39.110]  So the hearing went into it, not seamlessly, I would say, but, uh, there were some weird video and sound problems.
[01:28:39.230 --> 01:28:44.210]  And then all of a sudden you're in the hearing and you see this hearing officer, he begins to ask you who you are.
[01:28:44.410 --> 01:28:47.890]  You know, it's the ticket number, blah, blah, you know, we're on the record.
[01:28:47.890 --> 01:28:58.250]  There's going to be hearing, and then I realized this isn't a negotiation with like, uh, an ADA to try to get something dropped down to maybe like, you know, a broken taillight or something like that.
[01:28:58.990 --> 01:29:00.490]  This is the actual trial.
[01:29:00.730 --> 01:29:06.570]  And they had the police officer who gave me the ticket there to give testimony.
[01:29:06.970 --> 01:29:12.510]  Now, when you say there, first of all, this, this hearing officer, was he in a hearing room?
[01:29:12.590 --> 01:29:13.430]  Was he at his house?
[01:29:13.610 --> 01:29:15.210]  And was the cop in the same room as him?
[01:29:15.950 --> 01:29:23.550]  The cop was in the same room as him, except it seemed like a big room where they have individual booths that, where you can go in and have these hearings.
[01:29:24.570 --> 01:29:25.930]  Doesn't that seem a bit unfair though?
[01:29:26.030 --> 01:29:29.550]  The cop is in the same room as the, as the person is going to decide if you're guilty or innocent.
[01:29:29.750 --> 01:29:30.930]  How come you're not in that room?
[01:29:30.950 --> 01:29:33.270]  Because I had pleaded not guilty of this thing so many times.
[01:29:33.270 --> 01:29:34.910]  This was like the actual trial.
[01:29:35.190 --> 01:29:41.190]  I didn't realize this, but it was like the actual trial where, you know, they're going to determine based on testimony.
[01:29:41.190 --> 01:29:43.110]  You realize you required him to be there.
[01:29:43.710 --> 01:29:45.370]  The cop was required to be there.
[01:29:45.370 --> 01:29:46.330]  Because you contested it.
[01:29:46.930 --> 01:29:47.290]  Yeah.
[01:29:47.470 --> 01:29:47.570]  Yeah.
[01:29:47.870 --> 01:29:48.770]  Because I contested it.
[01:29:48.890 --> 01:29:52.250]  They had to take this cop off duty and bring him there.
[01:29:52.370 --> 01:29:52.570]  Uh-huh.
[01:29:52.670 --> 01:29:52.790]  Right?
[01:29:53.230 --> 01:29:59.290]  So, the hearing officer says to me, all right, well, you know, this is how it's going to work.
[01:29:59.950 --> 01:30:02.970]  I'm going to take testimony from the, from the responding officer.
[01:30:02.970 --> 01:30:04.970]  And that's when I realized, like, what?
[01:30:05.890 --> 01:30:07.710]  The guy is even there, right?
[01:30:08.210 --> 01:30:09.850]  So, you know, or where is he?
[01:30:09.930 --> 01:30:11.410]  I thought he was virtually somewhere else.
[01:30:11.890 --> 01:30:13.710]  And then we're going to hear testimony from you.
[01:30:13.770 --> 01:30:19.990]  And then if I find you guilty, we're going to look at your driving history and figure out, you know, what an appropriate penalty is.
[01:30:20.810 --> 01:30:28.010]  So, according to what I see on the website here, that's $200 plus a $93 surcharge for not having a front license plate in New York.
[01:30:28.090 --> 01:30:29.270]  But you don't get points on your license.
[01:30:29.270 --> 01:30:33.550]  Yeah, and what the hell does it have, what does that have to do with your driving history?
[01:30:33.690 --> 01:30:34.290]  It's not driving.
[01:30:34.570 --> 01:30:34.710]  Yeah.
[01:30:35.590 --> 01:30:38.370]  I thought, you know, I thought you got points on your license for that.
[01:30:38.470 --> 01:30:41.270]  But if it, but it was basically a $300 fine, right?
[01:30:41.410 --> 01:30:41.570]  Right.
[01:30:41.850 --> 01:30:42.030]  Yeah.
[01:30:42.710 --> 01:30:49.050]  So, I, uh, said to me, yeah, the guy tells me, you know, this is how it's going to work.
[01:30:49.450 --> 01:30:50.450]  I said, uh, okay.
[01:30:50.690 --> 01:30:52.390]  And then he asked me, you know, do you have an attorney?
[01:30:53.170 --> 01:30:56.790]  So, I said to him, well, you know, I am an attorney.
[01:30:57.190 --> 01:30:59.190]  And he said, well, he's like, well, that's not what I asked.
[01:30:59.270 --> 01:31:01.710]  You know, do you have somebody who's here to represent you?
[01:31:01.890 --> 01:31:05.990]  Do you realize you could have just gone off screen and put on a hat or something and pretended to be somebody else?
[01:31:06.170 --> 01:31:07.970]  Like, you know, Roger on American Dad does.
[01:31:09.970 --> 01:31:13.510]  Why, yes, uh, your honor, I am, uh, representing.
[01:31:14.350 --> 01:31:17.390]  Oh, I mean, this is, this is, this could be a whole YouTube series.
[01:31:17.390 --> 01:31:19.390]  Can't do that in court, but you can do that online.
[01:31:19.790 --> 01:31:21.430]  Hold your finger up for a mustache.
[01:31:23.370 --> 01:31:23.910]  That's right.
[01:31:24.010 --> 01:31:26.210]  The mustache, nose glasses, you put them on.
[01:31:27.690 --> 01:31:29.810]  No, no, that guy has a different color mustache.
[01:31:30.270 --> 01:31:31.870]  Or you can have one of your kids be your lawyer.
[01:31:31.990 --> 01:31:36.630]  I mean, you don't have to show a certification that you're actually a lawyer because it's all online.
[01:31:37.390 --> 01:31:38.230]  That's, that's true.
[01:31:38.570 --> 01:31:39.090]  That's right.
[01:31:39.170 --> 01:31:41.030]  Well, I just turned my face into a cat.
[01:31:41.170 --> 01:31:48.090]  Like the lawyer who actually was in a hearing with a judge accidentally had that became a viral sensation in 2020.
[01:31:48.550 --> 01:31:49.610]  That really was a good one.
[01:31:49.990 --> 01:31:55.790]  Um, so in any event, this guy, uh, he asked me, yeah, so, you know, do you, do you have a lawyer?
[01:31:56.030 --> 01:31:57.170]  I said, well, I am a lawyer.
[01:31:57.270 --> 01:31:59.510]  That's not what I asked you is, you know, is somebody going to represent you?
[01:31:59.590 --> 01:32:01.270]  So I, I, I laughed a little bit.
[01:32:01.350 --> 01:32:05.350]  I said, I'm, I'm, I'm happy to go pro se here, you know, you know what I mean?
[01:32:05.370 --> 01:32:07.310]  You know, for, for yourself or by yourself.
[01:32:07.430 --> 01:32:09.350]  So he, he had a little chuckle about that.
[01:32:09.350 --> 01:32:17.630]  And then he goes in, starts taking testimony from the police officer where he just turns the camera around and there's the guy standing behind this thing.
[01:32:17.730 --> 01:32:20.250]  He says, you know, you state your name, you know, you know, who are you?
[01:32:20.410 --> 01:32:21.150]  I'm a responding officer.
[01:32:21.610 --> 01:32:27.030]  He said, you know, okay, tell me your, uh, tell me what happened, you know, on February, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[01:32:27.090 --> 01:32:34.350]  You know, the, the, the respondent was driving a vehicle eastbound, uh, on Delancey street.
[01:32:34.690 --> 01:32:36.710]  And I noticed he didn't have a front license plate.
[01:32:36.710 --> 01:32:38.490]  So I pulled him over and issued the citation.
[01:32:38.490 --> 01:32:39.750]  That's essentially what he said.
[01:32:40.210 --> 01:32:46.710]  And the hearing officer then, uh, asked him, is that the, uh, full sum and substance of your testimony?
[01:32:46.910 --> 01:32:48.410]  And the officer said, yes, it is.
[01:32:49.330 --> 01:32:52.230]  And then the hearing officer turned the camera back to himself.
[01:32:52.330 --> 01:33:02.870]  And he said, uh, Mr. Rebellis, um, I find the testimony of the hearing officer to have certain material deficiencies.
[01:33:02.870 --> 01:33:06.310]  And I find the charging instrument to have certain material deficiencies.
[01:33:06.310 --> 01:33:11.570]  And I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and declare you not guilty.
[01:33:11.850 --> 01:33:12.330]  Wait a minute.
[01:33:12.590 --> 01:33:13.110]  Hold on a second.
[01:33:13.150 --> 01:33:17.570]  I don't normally take the side of cops, but what's deficient about what he said?
[01:33:17.650 --> 01:33:18.670]  What he said is what happened.
[01:33:19.690 --> 01:33:20.770]  How is that deficient?
[01:33:21.730 --> 01:33:24.730]  Well, there are certain deficiencies on the ticket.
[01:33:24.910 --> 01:33:28.790]  I don't think that he tied the registration directly over to me.
[01:33:29.230 --> 01:33:34.770]  And his testimony also didn't name me as the owner of the car.
[01:33:34.770 --> 01:33:43.050]  So he may have failed to establish a material element, which was that I own the vehicle that he had pulled over, quite possibly.
[01:33:43.430 --> 01:33:52.310]  But in any event, I just think that the hearing officer realized this was a two-year-old ticket for something really stupid and gave me a little bit of...
[01:33:52.310 --> 01:33:56.110]  I don't know if it was professional courtesy or if it was just being a decent human being.
[01:33:56.410 --> 01:33:58.590]  I hope it was the latter rather than the former.
[01:33:58.590 --> 01:34:11.130]  But he just discounted the testimony of the cop, declared me not guilty, and it gave me such great joy because, again, that cop was such a jerk.
[01:34:11.190 --> 01:34:21.950]  He was really rude, really arrogant, and he was forced to go in and give testimony in this inconsequential matter that was then summarily dismissed, and I was declared not guilty.
[01:34:21.950 --> 01:34:30.450]  And think of the awkwardness afterwards, because they're in the same room, and he just said, you know what, without the defendant saying a single word, I don't believe you.
[01:34:31.710 --> 01:34:32.650]  Have a good day.
[01:34:32.930 --> 01:34:39.770]  Or, you know, sometimes what they do in hearings with cops, the cop has to go in and do all his tickets on the same day.
[01:34:40.090 --> 01:34:44.730]  So he might have just gone to the next person, and the cop might have stayed in the room with that hearing officer.
[01:34:45.090 --> 01:34:45.630]  Oh, maybe.
[01:34:45.810 --> 01:34:50.210]  That'd be an efficient way of doing it, you know, if he had lots of contested tickets, for sure.
[01:34:50.210 --> 01:34:54.710]  I can't imagine so many of them get that far down the road, though, but I don't know.
[01:34:55.030 --> 01:35:02.330]  But it was a... yeah, it was a great... I feel like, you know, I've had a lot of wonderful legal victories so far.
[01:35:02.410 --> 01:35:06.530]  Well, can I ask... can I ask, did you ever put a front license plate on that car?
[01:35:07.250 --> 01:35:08.650]  Yeah, I did, almost immediately.
[01:35:08.810 --> 01:35:09.470]  Oh, you did?
[01:35:09.590 --> 01:35:10.930]  Okay, so you did learn something.
[01:35:11.550 --> 01:35:12.750]  Of course, yeah.
[01:35:13.010 --> 01:35:13.430]  All right.
[01:35:13.750 --> 01:35:14.770]  Absolutely, yeah.
[01:35:15.830 --> 01:35:21.110]  But, yeah, that was the story of my virtual hearing today.
[01:35:21.270 --> 01:35:21.730]  It was pretty good.
[01:35:22.570 --> 01:35:30.630]  On that note, we started with horrors in the courtroom, and we end with triumph in the courtroom of sorts, I guess.
[01:35:31.730 --> 01:35:32.550]  And victories.
[01:35:32.930 --> 01:35:33.230]  Yeah.
[01:35:33.510 --> 01:35:36.890]  So I guess we're going to sign off all the time tonight.
[01:35:37.130 --> 01:35:42.470]  You know, one day I'm going to forget to sign off and broadcast everything that happens after the show for hours and hours.
[01:35:42.470 --> 01:35:44.330]  But I think that's it for tonight.
[01:35:44.550 --> 01:35:45.570]  Any closing remarks?
[01:35:46.810 --> 01:35:54.090]  I just want to thank everyone for listening and send out lots of warmth and love to Jim.
[01:35:55.190 --> 01:35:56.090]  Yeah, absolutely.
[01:35:57.350 --> 01:35:59.110]  It's hard to even fathom.
[01:36:00.050 --> 01:36:01.090]  That entirely.
[01:36:01.390 --> 01:36:01.790]  Yeah.
[01:36:01.970 --> 01:36:02.710]  We miss you, Jim.
[01:36:02.830 --> 01:36:09.310]  And, you know, we weren't sure if we could announce anything publicly about your health, which is why we didn't.
[01:36:09.310 --> 01:36:11.310]  I think that's worth mentioning, too.
[01:36:12.830 --> 01:36:19.250]  You know, but for COVID and everything, I think we all would have been, you know, back together a hell of a lot sooner.
[01:36:19.490 --> 01:36:20.470]  We'll hope to see you soon.
[01:36:20.770 --> 01:36:27.230]  Yeah, and I think, speaking for Rob and Gila, the sentiment would probably, definitely be extended from them as well.
[01:36:28.230 --> 01:36:31.190]  Also, Virgil, front of mind for us.
[01:36:31.390 --> 01:36:35.330]  I hope for many of you, you can share, you can learn from his story.
[01:36:35.330 --> 01:36:41.970]  I hope, you know, what now is what I've been thinking as I've been sitting and listening to a lot of this.
[01:36:42.170 --> 01:36:49.250]  So, I'll try to shake the headache and we can hopefully look ahead to something better.
[01:36:49.390 --> 01:36:50.650]  But please share the story.
[01:36:50.870 --> 01:36:57.770]  Let's try to learn from this and all be better for it, if that's even possible.
[01:36:58.750 --> 01:37:01.150]  Okay, on that note, we're going to say goodnight.
[01:37:01.410 --> 01:37:04.610]  We will see you next week, Off the Hook, at 7 p.m.
[01:37:04.630 --> 01:37:05.430]  on WBAI.
[01:37:05.950 --> 01:37:07.850]  And Off the Hook, Overtime, 8 p.m.
[01:37:07.890 --> 01:37:09.010]  on Channel 2600.
[01:37:09.150 --> 01:37:10.930]  Everything is on 2600.com.
[01:37:11.770 --> 01:37:15.470]  Archives, live shows, and more.
[01:37:15.710 --> 01:37:19.850]  Hope.net for anything regarding the conference.
[01:37:19.850 --> 01:37:26.110]  Yeah, the HOPE conference coming up, a new HOPE, July 22nd through 24th, St. John's University in Queens.
[01:37:26.290 --> 01:37:27.010]  It's going to be awesome.
[01:37:27.210 --> 01:37:33.650]  And we have plenty of room still for more speakers and workshops and all sorts of ideas of ways you can participate.
[01:37:33.650 --> 01:37:35.430]  All the details on hope.net.
[01:37:35.570 --> 01:37:37.410]  More to come in the days and weeks ahead.
[01:37:38.270 --> 01:37:39.510]  Again, see you next week.
[01:37:39.630 --> 01:37:39.730]  Goodnight.