[00:00.000 --> 00:04.520]  ...this radio station by calling 212-209-2950.
[00:04.520 --> 00:13.440]  Again, the number is 212-209-2950 or go to give2, the number to wbai.org online.
[00:14.120 --> 00:15.560]  All right, it's 7 p.m.
[00:15.700 --> 00:18.060]  Stay tuned for Off the Hook, coming up.
[00:43.240 --> 00:49.900]  Due to local telephone company trouble in the area you are calling, your call cannot be completed at this time.
[00:50.120 --> 00:51.400]  Please try your call later.
[00:52.380 --> 00:53.000]  078P.
[00:58.790 --> 01:03.350]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:04.230 --> 01:08.810]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[01:09.530 --> 01:17.040]  We couldn't get much worse, if it would, but the best is back from worst.
[01:17.620 --> 01:20.460]  I hope that's understood, but the best is back from worst.
[01:20.460 --> 01:20.680]  I hope that's understood, but the best is back from worst.
[02:34.140 --> 02:35.990]  And a very good evening to everyone.
[02:36.100 --> 02:37.560]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:38.360 --> 02:42.430]  It's Emmanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:42.960 --> 02:43.490]  Yes, indeed.
[02:43.660 --> 02:44.860]  I'm present.
[02:45.120 --> 02:45.560]  Good, good.
[02:45.740 --> 02:47.780]  And over on Skypeland, we have Rob T.
[02:47.900 --> 02:48.280]  Firefly.
[02:49.000 --> 02:49.920]  Good evening.
[02:49.920 --> 02:50.760]  We have Gila.
[02:51.320 --> 02:51.920]  Good evening.
[02:52.300 --> 02:53.080]  And we have Alex.
[02:53.800 --> 02:54.360]  Good evening.
[02:57.760 --> 02:59.080]  Well, you're signaling, McCall.
[02:59.160 --> 03:00.060]  I don't know what you want me to do.
[03:00.220 --> 03:00.800]  Please tell me.
[03:00.880 --> 03:02.440]  Well, the Skype is a little bit hot.
[03:02.580 --> 03:03.140]  A little bit hot.
[03:03.220 --> 03:03.480]  Thank you.
[03:03.580 --> 03:04.060]  Yes, you're welcome.
[03:04.280 --> 03:06.920]  You're waving your hands as if that's English, and I don't know what that means.
[03:06.920 --> 03:08.860]  That's radio semaphore.
[03:08.920 --> 03:10.360]  I know, but I didn't know what you meant.
[03:11.000 --> 03:11.320]  Okay.
[03:11.500 --> 03:12.020]  Sorry, folks.
[03:12.720 --> 03:14.800]  Yeah, we haven't been on the air in a while, so we're out of practice.
[03:14.800 --> 03:16.500]  Yeah, another two-week gap.
[03:17.320 --> 03:22.060]  I guess we should welcome all our new listeners, because the only people tuning in now probably tuned in by accident.
[03:22.260 --> 03:23.320]  So, yeah, this is off the hook.
[03:23.740 --> 03:28.240]  We've been on the air since 1988, but occasionally you'll find us at 7 p.m.
[03:28.340 --> 03:28.920]  on Wednesdays.
[03:29.460 --> 03:34.960]  And we talk about technology and hackers and security and all kinds of fun things like that.
[03:34.960 --> 03:37.960]  And we aren't afraid to say what's on our mind.
[03:38.960 --> 03:39.360]  Right?
[03:39.640 --> 03:39.920]  Ever.
[03:40.360 --> 03:40.620]  Yeah.
[03:42.400 --> 03:44.660]  Anybody have any business I want to take care of before we get started?
[03:45.280 --> 03:45.760]  No?
[03:46.600 --> 03:47.260]  We good?
[03:47.760 --> 03:48.500]  Go ahead, Rob.
[03:49.180 --> 03:50.140]  Go ahead.
[03:50.840 --> 03:52.160]  There are things on our mind.
[03:52.320 --> 04:10.120]  I'm just, you know, sort of generically grateful for the people who have kept us going here on WBAI over those years since 1988 and how important it is to keep WBAI going and doing its thing with us, but also with everyone else and all our other colleagues at WBAI.
[04:10.260 --> 04:10.740]  That's right.
[04:10.740 --> 04:19.880]  Every hour of every day, actually, except for the middle of the day for the next week or so, I believe, when they're doing transmitter maintenance.
[04:20.420 --> 04:24.440]  Except for that, this radio station always has something different on.
[04:24.980 --> 04:28.380]  And if you don't like one program, just wait a little bit and something else will come on.
[04:28.470 --> 04:32.440]  And you might not like that, too, but then you'll like something a lot, and then you'll like something even more after that.
[04:32.440 --> 04:42.060]  And before you know it, you're calling all the time to support WBAI because we've been on the air since 1960 doing things like this when nobody else would dare.
[04:43.600 --> 04:44.880]  Yeah, let that sink in.
[04:45.420 --> 04:45.590]  Okay.
[04:45.760 --> 04:51.590]  We have some interesting news that's coming down the pike.
[04:53.230 --> 04:54.560]  Where do we start?
[04:56.850 --> 05:01.260]  I'm going to go out on a limb here and talk about this particular thing.
[05:01.320 --> 05:02.780]  I might not land on the right side.
[05:02.970 --> 05:04.740]  I might have some disagreements with people here.
[05:04.850 --> 05:07.600]  But there's this new TV show apparently called Ring Nation.
[05:08.040 --> 05:10.280]  And there was a piece in Vice that just ran.
[05:11.000 --> 05:12.160]  I'll just read the beginning of it.
[05:12.210 --> 05:27.680]  On Tuesday, 40 civil rights groups published an open letter calling on MGM television executives to cancel the studio's upcoming reality show, Ring Nation, which will feature former NSA employee and comedian Wanda Sykes.
[05:27.760 --> 05:29.220]  Wanda Sykes worked for the NSA?
[05:31.160 --> 05:32.640]  Yeah, I'm sure...
[05:32.640 --> 05:33.340]  You knew that?
[05:33.480 --> 05:34.140]  I didn't know that.
[05:34.260 --> 05:35.020]  I thought she was a comedian.
[05:35.280 --> 05:36.760]  It's a great way to get into comedy.
[05:36.920 --> 05:37.920]  No, I didn't know that.
[05:38.000 --> 05:38.780]  I didn't ever know that.
[05:38.820 --> 05:39.600]  Don't make like you do then.
[05:39.760 --> 05:41.940]  Okay, so does anybody know Wanda Sykes used to work for the NSA?
[05:43.210 --> 05:43.520]  Okay.
[05:44.160 --> 05:45.360]  Well, that's what it says here.
[05:46.180 --> 05:47.600]  This is the first time seeing that.
[05:47.600 --> 05:54.420]  Uh, former NSA employee and comedian Wanda Sykes presenting humorous surveillance footage captured from Ring doorbell cameras.
[05:54.600 --> 06:16.280]  Now, the group say the studio is normalizing and promoting Amazon Ring's dangerous network of surveillance cameras, uh, which along with the Neighbors app violate basic privacy rights, uh, fuel surveillance-based policing that disproportionately targets people of color and threatens abortion seekers and enables vigilantes to surveil their neighbors and racially profile bystanders.
[06:16.280 --> 06:29.710]  Um, okay, you know, this is the kind of thing that I, I, I, I really think makes us look bad, uh, because what would, I mean, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a program where people have their little Ring doorbell things.
[06:29.860 --> 06:32.300]  They see something funny and they send it in.
[06:32.450 --> 06:37.140]  And here, uh, here we're, we're, we're basically bringing up, uh, privacy rights.
[06:37.330 --> 06:49.740]  We're bringing up, uh, um, all kinds of surveillance, abortion seekers, uh, people who are disenfranchised, people of color and all that, uh, it's, it's, they're sending them in voluntarily.
[06:49.950 --> 06:53.580]  It's not like they're being taken from their homes without their consent.
[06:53.710 --> 06:54.660]  They bought the product.
[06:54.800 --> 06:55.900]  Yes, I know it's owned by Amazon.
[06:55.900 --> 07:06.180]  I know Amazon is evil, but when, when, when you put yourself out here like this, all the rest of the country sees is that these people are trying to cancel a popular TV show just because they don't like the product.
[07:06.180 --> 07:19.880]  Look, there are important issues here and, and ring surveillance is an important issue, but it doesn't mean that we should just, uh, uh, try and shut down anything related to it that involves what people are doing themselves with the devices that they bought.
[07:19.980 --> 07:20.830]  Now, am I getting this wrong?
[07:20.880 --> 07:22.600]  Am I, am I not understanding the story?
[07:22.950 --> 07:23.840]  Uh, Gila, go ahead.
[07:24.580 --> 07:30.070]  Oh, well, the first thing I was going to say was Wanda Sykes worked for the NSA 30 years ago.
[07:30.210 --> 07:30.450]  Okay.
[07:30.520 --> 07:32.280]  She has not worked for the NSA since 1992.
[07:32.380 --> 07:33.660]  It was her first job out of college.
[07:33.780 --> 07:34.620]  She worked there for five years.
[07:34.620 --> 07:36.580]  Then her comedy career started taking off.
[07:36.660 --> 07:37.340]  She left the NSA.
[07:37.580 --> 07:38.360]  So that's piece number one.
[07:38.500 --> 07:39.840]  It's 30 years ago.
[07:40.000 --> 07:43.580]  So I think job out of, out of college was, was, uh, NSA.
[07:43.710 --> 07:46.330]  My first job out of college was a dishwasher.
[07:47.120 --> 07:47.520]  Wow.
[07:48.340 --> 07:49.120]  Okay, fine.
[07:49.240 --> 07:49.780]  I'm sorry.
[07:49.860 --> 07:50.080]  Go ahead.
[07:51.240 --> 07:52.830]  So I think that's a piece of it.
[07:52.920 --> 08:08.300]  And honestly, you know, if we're going to be talking about what Amazon thinks will be an interesting corporate synergy, cross promotional version of America's funniest home videos, which I'm assuming is assuming is where they're trying to go with ring nation.
[08:08.520 --> 08:08.720]  Right.
[08:09.450 --> 08:21.040]  You know, is that more or less problematic than something like cops, than something like PD, live PD, um, all these pieces that really people have no control over appearing in.
[08:21.680 --> 08:29.330]  Um, I, I think that's an interesting, pardon me, um, yes, but it looked like you were going to say something.
[08:29.600 --> 08:40.780]  Well, um, um, if, you know, cops, I definitely have issues with, uh, but again, if, if you try and, and, and, and take cops off the air, it doesn't land right with most people in the country.
[08:40.920 --> 08:52.300]  They just see people taking a TV show off the air because they don't like what they, what they see on it rather than attacking what's wrong with the show week by week and, and, and offering counterpoints and things like that.
[08:52.360 --> 08:55.020]  But just, you know, silencing it because you don't like the product.
[08:55.340 --> 08:57.330]  Uh, I just don't think that's, that's the right move.
[08:57.380 --> 09:02.020]  Now, you know, one thing I, I would have a problem with, uh, this is called ring nation.
[09:02.020 --> 09:12.380]  Does that mean that if you have a different kind of doorbell app that records people coming to your door and yes, they do have control if they're on the, on the thing, if they come to your door, uh, they're going to be recorded.
[09:12.720 --> 09:17.800]  I mean, you know, I, I, I wouldn't be surprised if I was recorded knocking on somebody's door.
[09:17.920 --> 09:19.080]  I just wouldn't be surprised these days.
[09:19.500 --> 09:24.080]  But, uh, if you use something else, that's not ring, does it, is it disqualified because it's not the right brand?
[09:24.240 --> 09:25.300]  I'd have a problem with that.
[09:25.800 --> 09:29.000]  So, you know, that's how I could get on board this, this, uh, this bandwagon.
[09:32.060 --> 09:32.380]  Yeah.
[09:33.420 --> 09:34.080]  Go ahead, Kyle.
[09:34.240 --> 09:34.400]  Sorry.
[09:43.700 --> 09:50.360]  Things that are surveilled privately and, uh, depends on how they're talking about this particular service.
[09:50.680 --> 10:02.340]  And maybe they under the people's understanding will be a little bit deeper of, of the, the issues at play instead of people, uh, tearing it down necessarily like before it's even been out there at all.
[10:02.480 --> 10:03.160]  Well, that's the thing.
[10:03.240 --> 10:04.060]  It hasn't aired yet.
[10:04.060 --> 10:06.940]  So, uh, you know, I don't know what the format is going to be.
[10:07.100 --> 10:10.400]  I mean, this whole thing of Wanda Sykes working for the NSA.
[10:10.400 --> 10:12.060]  Why, why did they mention that in the story?
[10:12.180 --> 10:20.920]  Why they say former NSA employee, if, if that was her first job out of college and, and it was, it was 30 years ago, was it 30 years ago and a long time ago.
[10:21.100 --> 10:24.140]  And, uh, I don't think she carries that around with her today.
[10:24.240 --> 10:25.220]  And I never heard that before.
[10:25.460 --> 10:31.820]  It just seems like kind of unfair ammunition to be using in the story, uh, to make you think, okay, this is, this is bad.
[10:32.140 --> 10:44.620]  And, uh, you know, I certainly believe that the ring, um, a network that police use is a very bad thing where, where they basically, uh, is it without the permission of the people who have the cameras or do they, do they consent to it?
[10:44.780 --> 10:46.640]  See, I don't have a ring device.
[10:46.760 --> 10:47.400]  I don't know these things.
[10:47.540 --> 10:48.020]  Alex, do you know?
[10:48.720 --> 11:00.520]  I think in certain instances, or at least there, there's been reporting that in certain instances, the ring surveillance footage was provided to law enforcement without the consent or knowledge of the customer.
[11:01.080 --> 11:04.920]  Uh, and that's because a lot of that data is stored in Amazon's cloud.
[11:05.140 --> 11:07.940]  So, you know, it's not necessarily on a local device.
[11:08.060 --> 11:09.160]  So they have access to that.
[11:09.500 --> 11:28.780]  And my, my, my beef here is, uh, uh, I think similar to yours, Emmanuel, in that I, I don't see it necessarily as inherently evil or bad, but there is this something that's deeply unsettling to me, which is the, the notion of surveillance as, as entertainment.
[11:29.540 --> 11:48.880]  And, and the normalization of the fact that we're always on camera everywhere we go at any time forever, when you come up to somebody's house, you have, I mean, just this, this expectation of privacy that we had 20, 30 years ago doesn't exist and can't even be fathomed by people that were born,
[11:49.020 --> 11:50.380]  I think, you know, after 1990.
[11:50.460 --> 11:54.160]  So it's a, it's, it's a terrible thing, I think, to normalize.
[11:54.340 --> 11:55.380]  Well, that's a great point.
[11:55.380 --> 11:59.300]  But if you don't air something like this, the cameras are still there.
[11:59.500 --> 12:03.140]  All you're doing is making so people aren't aware that the cameras are there.
[12:03.240 --> 12:05.600]  If you have a show like this, everyone's going to know there's cameras everywhere.
[12:05.920 --> 12:08.980]  Doesn't change the circumstance, but it does raise awareness about it.
[12:09.180 --> 12:10.380]  Yeah, perhaps.
[12:10.700 --> 12:14.940]  But I mean, the, the flip side of that is the cameras are out there and Hey, they're funny.
[12:15.380 --> 12:16.060]  This is great.
[12:16.200 --> 12:17.060]  This is entertainment.
[12:17.060 --> 12:22.020]  And so it, it normalizes it and makes it fun or funny in the sense and, and entertainment.
[12:22.020 --> 12:29.720]  And I think that's, that's the danger here from a privacy perspective is that, you know, the cameras are still there, but they're not seen as dangerous anymore.
[12:29.720 --> 12:31.080]  They're seen as fun.
[12:31.360 --> 12:35.380]  Well, that it's, it's really the, the opinion of the person who owns the camera.
[12:35.420 --> 12:44.820]  If they think it's fun, you know, if they, it's, it's, if the police department was, was the ones sending in the footage saying, look, look what happened at this particular door.
[12:45.360 --> 12:46.400]  Yeah, that'd be a huge problem.
[12:46.480 --> 12:50.460]  But these are people that have their own cameras saying, uh, this is, I thought this was funny.
[12:50.620 --> 12:56.800]  The other day out on long Island, this cat came home after several weeks out and rang the doorbell and it was captured on ring.
[12:57.520 --> 13:00.680]  I mean, do you want us to be deprived of moments like that?
[13:01.140 --> 13:01.740]  I know.
[13:01.820 --> 13:03.340]  What a great time to be alive, huh?
[13:03.520 --> 13:04.640]  There's a smart cat too.
[13:04.740 --> 13:05.120]  Rob, go ahead.
[13:05.960 --> 13:07.200]  Talking of smart cats.
[13:07.420 --> 13:12.960]  Um, this is a huge sort of forceful leveraging of Amazon's monopolies.
[13:13.080 --> 13:17.440]  Um, Amazon owns big fish entertainment, which is the production company that's making the show.
[13:17.820 --> 13:20.260]  Amazon owns MGM, which is distributing the show.
[13:20.420 --> 13:23.460]  Amazon owns Amazon prime where they're probably going to air the show.
[13:23.580 --> 13:25.880]  Um, and also Amazon owns rings.
[13:26.040 --> 13:30.360]  So they're using basically their powerful media empire to push their own security product.
[13:30.800 --> 13:41.980]  Um, and, uh, you know, talking about America's funniest home videos, we all remember people back in those days, uh, those of us who were around and watching that show, how many people bought camcorders because of America's funniest home videos.
[13:42.220 --> 13:47.100]  And they wanted to, they wanted to tape the next big funny thing that, uh, went that era's version of viral.
[13:47.320 --> 13:55.320]  Um, it, it sort of demystified camcorders for a lot of people and really normalized it as a thing that you should have as a, you know, red blooded American consumer.
[13:55.720 --> 14:00.960]  And, uh, this is doing this with ring, which is, uh, you know, it's, it's power, it's powerful.
[14:01.260 --> 14:02.400]  It's a, it's a powerful tool.
[14:02.640 --> 14:04.420]  It's also a powerfully misused tool.
[14:04.560 --> 14:21.940]  And it's in the hands of a production company, which has a history of making the show live PD, which was, um, which, which had its own sort of, um, really, really, uh, really prominent, uh, problems in how it was produced because it was streaming interactions with cops live,
[14:22.120 --> 14:29.740]  which, uh, was not giving the, um, people captured, you know, sort of their, their fair share at, uh, being innocent until proven guilty.
[14:29.740 --> 14:33.180]  It was just, Hey, look at these yokels and the hero cops are busting them.
[14:33.340 --> 14:42.280]  It was canceled in the, in the wake of the George Floyd protests last year or, or the year before last rather, but, uh, they've quietly brought it back as another show called, uh, on patrol, which is the same thing.
[14:42.460 --> 14:54.140]  Well, you know, I can see, I can see a risk like what you're discussing here, where people are so enthralled by this, that they not only have ring, but they have cameras all over their house and outside because they think something funny might happen somewhere.
[14:54.340 --> 15:03.120]  So they're constantly filming that, that could definitely be a social problem, but, you know, I think we're kind of moving in that direction without Amazon's help already.
[15:03.120 --> 15:06.000]  We have cameras every place where it's, it's being normalized.
[15:06.320 --> 15:13.420]  And, you know, when we say that, yeah, they own the distributor, they own the production company, they own the method of getting the video out, they own the cameras.
[15:14.040 --> 15:16.260]  I mean, they own it all already.
[15:16.700 --> 15:20.100]  Can we really say, uh, no, you shouldn't be allowed to use all of that.
[15:20.220 --> 15:23.600]  I mean, the real question should have been raised when they were buying all these things.
[15:23.860 --> 15:30.340]  Uh, you know, if there's some kind of monopoly that, that, uh, they're, they're, they're engaging in, that's where you raise the question.
[15:30.440 --> 15:34.820]  Well, when they actually start to use these tools that they already own, I'm not I'm sure it's a really good argument.
[15:35.020 --> 15:35.360]  Go ahead, Gila.
[15:35.620 --> 15:41.920]  I think beyond that, at least for me, there's issues of monopoly, but also of balkanization.
[15:42.160 --> 15:57.000]  And I think the fact that every media company and their mother decided to set up a 24-hour on-demand streaming service, there's not enough content to support all of these things, unless... I think we're heading for the Truman Show soon.
[15:57.000 --> 16:00.580]  I really do, because we're running out of program ideas.
[16:00.580 --> 16:03.680]  So Amazon's like, hey, we can do this.
[16:04.000 --> 16:04.440]  Cool.
[16:04.700 --> 16:06.700]  We've got all these cameras everywhere.
[16:06.700 --> 16:13.180]  And yeah, this is also going to demystify it and defang it in a lot of ways, which make it scarier.
[16:13.320 --> 16:19.760]  But then when they run out of content, are they just going to go into the bank by themselves and say, oh, hey, this looks fun?
[16:20.400 --> 16:26.860]  You know, I knew someone who had a Ring doorbell years ago on their apartment.
[16:27.860 --> 16:36.760]  They lived in a 24-hour doorman building, but also wanted a Ring doorbell and would just sometimes check in from work to see if anybody was at their door.
[16:38.260 --> 16:39.120]  I don't know why.
[16:39.260 --> 16:41.840]  Like, this was their very own Ring Nation program.
[16:42.040 --> 16:42.780]  Wait, they would check in?
[16:42.880 --> 16:44.640]  Wouldn't it contact them if somebody was at their door?
[16:45.160 --> 16:46.380]  They would have to check themselves?
[16:47.000 --> 16:50.460]  No, just, you know, they would just check the feed throughout the day for funsies.
[16:51.040 --> 16:52.920]  And yes, then if someone checked in.
[16:53.020 --> 17:00.900]  But again, if you have a 24-hour doorman at your building, probably not going to be a lot of people at your door in the first place, except your neighbors.
[17:01.080 --> 17:02.100]  Are you spying on your neighbors?
[17:02.220 --> 17:02.820]  Is this the plan?
[17:03.020 --> 17:04.060]  Well, who else are you going to spy on?
[17:04.080 --> 17:04.880]  Of course you're going to spy on them.
[17:04.880 --> 17:05.640]  Clearly, but...
[17:05.640 --> 17:10.660]  You've been spying on their neighbors for years, but yeah, now they can save what they are spying on.
[17:11.700 --> 17:12.340]  Time shift.
[17:12.600 --> 17:16.580]  It is a sort of voyeurism that is out of our control.
[17:16.580 --> 17:25.340]  We're not buying a standalone camcorder or something that is, you know, completely self-contained and so forth.
[17:25.500 --> 17:36.760]  These are machines that are communicating and running software that you don't have the same level of access to.
[17:36.900 --> 17:41.480]  And you're relinquishing much of how it operates to how this company is dictating.
[17:41.600 --> 17:44.480]  And then, of course, using it as content.
[17:44.480 --> 17:53.580]  Well, you know, apart from a cat coming home and ringing the doorbell, I'm wondering what kind of content these people are going to find to fill an entire TV show.
[17:53.760 --> 17:57.460]  I mean, people aren't going to be jumping on trampolines in front of your front door.
[17:58.040 --> 18:00.880]  There won't be all kinds of humorous accidents and things like that.
[18:01.060 --> 18:08.840]  It's, you know, most of the time it's people either trying to break in or, you know, friends or just people doing boring things.
[18:08.840 --> 18:12.840]  So, I mean, apart from animals, okay, that's probably the number one draw.
[18:13.360 --> 18:15.240]  What else do they think they're going to capture?
[18:15.840 --> 18:16.280]  Alex?
[18:16.580 --> 18:21.640]  I mean, I think content is the primary motivation here.
[18:21.720 --> 18:23.500]  I think you got it absolutely right.
[18:23.500 --> 18:28.480]  And I don't want to seem overly pugnacious towards the privacy advocates here.
[18:28.480 --> 18:36.000]  But I think that what Amazon has stumbled upon is essentially an inexhaustible and incredibly fertile source of content.
[18:36.140 --> 18:43.660]  Because it's not just people delivering packages or UPS personnel doing funny dances down the porch or something like that.
[18:43.740 --> 18:46.360]  I mean, think about back to the 4th of July.
[18:46.360 --> 19:01.260]  There was this massively viral video that came from somewhere in suburbia, presumably from a ring camera, fireworks going off behind a car that exploded and caused people to run from their porch.
[19:01.360 --> 19:03.160]  I mean, there's any... there's car accidents.
[19:03.480 --> 19:05.800]  There's any number of things that happen on the street.
[19:05.940 --> 19:06.760]  Right, but that's not funny.
[19:06.860 --> 19:07.920]  There's nothing funny about that.
[19:08.180 --> 19:08.680]  I think...
[19:08.680 --> 19:09.700]  Well, it could be.
[19:09.920 --> 19:12.280]  Or, you know, it could be a kangaroo jumping on the porch.
[19:12.800 --> 19:13.420]  Anything that happens...
[19:13.420 --> 19:14.100]  Again, animals.
[19:14.100 --> 19:16.680]  Yes, animals will be the leading content provider here.
[19:16.780 --> 19:18.860]  But what else can you do in the front door?
[19:19.360 --> 19:22.300]  Anything that happens outside can happen on a ring camera.
[19:22.640 --> 19:25.040]  That's a massive amount of opportunity.
[19:26.340 --> 19:26.940]  Gila, go ahead.
[19:27.440 --> 19:32.420]  Yeah, it could be, you know, a truck is driving down your street and it gets a flat tire.
[19:32.720 --> 19:34.320]  But... and, you know, it spins out.
[19:34.620 --> 19:35.120]  That's funny.
[19:35.420 --> 19:35.820]  Is it?
[19:35.880 --> 19:36.860]  Is that really funny?
[19:38.040 --> 19:40.120]  I think it's funny when people fall down.
[19:40.120 --> 19:41.500]  I am a terrible person.
[19:42.480 --> 19:42.820]  But...
[19:43.160 --> 19:55.560]  I think there's also an element of what this could turn into if you think about things like the Citizen app that is a bunch of people like, someone suspicious is standing outside.
[19:55.660 --> 20:00.560]  Like, you guys heard about the pastor in Alabama?
[20:01.300 --> 20:08.300]  There was a pastor in Alabama who was watering the flowers of his neighbors who were out of town.
[20:09.040 --> 20:11.020]  Oh, yeah, the guy got arrested for doing that.
[20:11.160 --> 20:11.540]  He got...
[20:11.540 --> 20:15.980]  This man got arrested for watering the flowers because his...
[20:15.980 --> 20:17.920]  because people in the neighborhood thought it looked strange.
[20:18.500 --> 20:18.720]  Mm-hmm.
[20:18.820 --> 20:20.180]  Well, it's also that neighborhood...
[20:20.180 --> 20:21.360]  This is going to be writ large on...
[20:21.360 --> 20:22.320]  That neighborhood is 1962.
[20:23.380 --> 20:24.700]  They didn't mention that in the story.
[20:25.040 --> 20:26.080]  They never advanced.
[20:27.220 --> 20:27.700]  Um...
[20:27.700 --> 20:34.280]  So, take that and have it writ large when what you see on cameras lacks any kind of context.
[20:34.280 --> 20:36.480]  And that could be problematic as well.
[20:36.620 --> 20:45.280]  Well, the other potential issue here, which I think maybe is more worthy of focusing on, do you give the right to use your image?
[20:45.760 --> 20:56.580]  If something happens to you in view of someone's ring camera and they send it in because it's humorous, it seems to me that's a violation of your rights.
[20:57.000 --> 21:02.600]  You know, walking down the street, you're not consenting to having your image grabbed and saved.
[21:03.240 --> 21:05.240]  Maybe if you go up to the front door, I don't know.
[21:05.460 --> 21:07.680]  I'm not sure, Alex, if the course decided.
[21:07.920 --> 21:12.020]  If you go up to someone's front door, do you have the expectation of privacy?
[21:12.100 --> 21:18.480]  I know in Texas, there have been instances where people have killed somebody just for knocking on their door and they've gotten away with it.
[21:18.580 --> 21:21.260]  So, you know, your mileage may vary.
[21:22.140 --> 21:23.700]  Yeah, I mean, it's different.
[21:23.860 --> 21:38.780]  I mean, you think about when we walk around the streets of New York and if they're doing any kind of filming, there's always some kind of disclaimer placed up that says there'll be filming here and by going down the sidewalk or the street, you consent to your image being used and whatever is actually being filmed,
[21:38.900 --> 21:39.000]  right?
[21:39.160 --> 21:42.680]  So there's usually some kind of consent required in a public place.
[21:42.800 --> 21:54.020]  I think it's going to be a little bit different from a licensing perspective, I think possibly based on the jurisdiction where the cameras are located and the fact that they are very likely to be on private property.
[21:54.180 --> 22:14.640]  That raises a great question because what have they established as a criteria for signage of recording in progress or, you know, you're being surveilled or smile, you're on a ring television show, tune in on this night, you know, for season four or whatever,
[22:14.780 --> 22:24.500]  you know, it's like it doesn't seem like those are, you know, across the board required to have any kind of like lawn sign or sign next to it.
[22:24.660 --> 22:27.260]  So in many cases, that defeats the purpose.
[22:27.260 --> 22:31.860]  They want to catch, you know, or they want you to trigger some kind of light or something.
[22:32.280 --> 22:40.700]  So if, but that, as Alex pointed out, could be a situation that varies across different states, wherever the camera is placed.
[22:40.700 --> 22:46.880]  Is it a public street or what percentage of the frame is private versus public?
[22:47.840 --> 22:48.320]  I don't know.
[22:48.560 --> 23:03.040]  It just see, it raises a lot of concerns because I've never really seen like a ring sign that says recording is going on, not in the same way that security systems or something would say, hey, you know, you better be mindful that you're being recorded.
[23:03.240 --> 23:14.860]  I think that might be a very good idea, you know, and maybe this is something that the people who are fighting this can push for is some kind of notice saying that, you know, ring surveillance is on from this door.
[23:14.860 --> 23:16.620]  Or if you walk past this area, you will be filmed.
[23:16.840 --> 23:26.180]  And I see nothing wrong with that because that's the equivalent of having, you know, burglar alarm sign warning people that you're under surveillance, but let people know about it.
[23:26.260 --> 23:28.920]  And that has been required in other places, other countries.
[23:29.100 --> 23:31.620]  I know in England, there are certain rules about that.
[23:31.760 --> 23:37.040]  So that might be something worth battling for to actually get some changes.
[23:37.120 --> 23:37.400]  Go ahead, Rob.
[23:38.480 --> 23:47.520]  Yeah, the consent issue is also going to be very interesting with this because entertainment lawyers know all about things like image rights, personality rights, and things like that.
[23:47.700 --> 23:54.040]  And the whole industry is built on extensive contracts that you have to sign before something can get out there.
[23:54.160 --> 24:09.620]  But in the case of something like this, you know, if I'm walking up the stairs to somebody's front door and I, you know, fall comedically on my ass and it goes viral, like, who then owns that, who then gets to sell that footage, it's going to be the person who owns the house,
[24:09.620 --> 24:10.480]  who owns the camera.
[24:10.860 --> 24:12.480]  But, you know, what if I...
[24:12.480 --> 24:13.120]  Yeah, but it's your ass.
[24:13.340 --> 24:14.000]  You should get a taste.
[24:14.080 --> 24:15.100]  You should get a taste at least.
[24:15.380 --> 24:21.340]  I should get a piece of that action or at least the option to say, no, I'd rather not have this, you know, broadcast everywhere.
[24:22.060 --> 24:24.600]  What kinds of activities will this encourage, too?
[24:24.740 --> 24:31.740]  I mean, people might want to have sort of exhibition attention, exhibition, a whole soap opera.
[24:31.920 --> 24:32.360]  Ring theater.
[24:32.360 --> 24:35.860]  Yeah, you do like it across neighborhoods and people tune in.
[24:36.100 --> 24:37.180]  Alex, can you copyright this one?
[24:37.320 --> 24:40.420]  Because the listeners go too fast sometimes and they get our ideas before we do.
[24:40.600 --> 24:41.220]  We're going to need this.
[24:41.340 --> 24:52.460]  Ring theater, spelled R-E, and basically it's a traveling troupe, a traveling troupe that goes from city to city and puts on little performances, kind of like they did this years ago with surveillance camera players.
[24:52.600 --> 24:53.600]  Yeah, the surveillance camera players.
[24:54.080 --> 24:55.660]  Maybe we could work with them as well.
[24:55.740 --> 25:03.160]  But we just go, you know, to people's private homes and stand in front of their front doors and engage in little plays and, you know, miniature comedy scenes.
[25:03.300 --> 25:03.820]  It's what they want.
[25:04.000 --> 25:05.600]  Well, obviously, that's where we're moving.
[25:05.820 --> 25:10.000]  But okay, you know, this is going to be interesting to see how this plays out.
[25:10.100 --> 25:18.260]  I just don't think trying to shut it down is the right approach because educating people is far better getting people to reject it.
[25:18.260 --> 25:27.160]  That's a better method rather than saying, we don't like you because you're Amazon and because this is, you know, indicative of a bigger problem.
[25:27.740 --> 25:29.120]  You need people to reach that.
[25:29.260 --> 25:32.460]  You need people to reach that conclusion, not talk down to them.
[25:33.320 --> 25:36.680]  The other question I had from all this, ring cameras.
[25:36.800 --> 25:40.080]  I'm not very familiar with them, but can you tell if a ring camera is on a door?
[25:40.380 --> 25:44.760]  Does it show anything on the outside or is it only on the inside or is it even on the inside?
[25:45.020 --> 25:45.460]  Gila, do you know?
[25:46.980 --> 25:58.540]  There's a thing that looks like it's a doorbell and it's about, I don't know, it's the size of a doorbell and there's a circle on it.
[25:59.300 --> 26:00.840]  That's the lens.
[26:01.700 --> 26:06.360]  And I think it lights up blue much in the same way as an Echo device.
[26:06.600 --> 26:09.020]  So you can tell pretty easily that...
[26:09.020 --> 26:09.400]  100%.
[26:09.400 --> 26:09.820]  Okay.
[26:10.120 --> 26:10.600]  All right.
[26:10.800 --> 26:12.200]  Well, that's good, I guess, right?
[26:12.980 --> 26:15.060]  Yeah, they have a pretty wide product range.
[26:15.060 --> 26:18.080]  And I don't want to, you know, be an infomercial for it at all.
[26:18.220 --> 26:23.240]  But the ability to identify is crucial, you know, know what you're looking at.
[26:23.360 --> 26:30.760]  And maybe there's different kinds of wearable lighting and things that can mess with them a little bit.
[26:30.840 --> 26:39.500]  Well, look, since these things are going out and grabbing images of people in the public, how about the public also grab all the ring cameras and make a little map as to where they all are?
[26:39.500 --> 26:42.420]  And maybe, you know, a Google Maps overlay or something like that.
[26:42.600 --> 26:45.640]  I mean, you know, if you're going to accept one, you really should accept the other.
[26:46.040 --> 26:46.660]  Okay, moving on.
[26:47.560 --> 26:50.960]  Another surveillance issue that I kind of have an issue with.
[26:51.580 --> 26:58.020]  Privacy groups are outraged at New York's plan to install cameras on all subway cars in a bid to stop crime.
[26:58.020 --> 27:05.860]  The proposal was announced by Governor Hochul yesterday as an expansion of an earlier pilot project that the governor said was working very well.
[27:06.040 --> 27:11.440]  Under her expanded plan, there will be two cameras in each of New York's 6,455 subway cars.
[27:11.620 --> 27:13.940]  Now, the reason I have an issue with this, I thought this was already done.
[27:14.600 --> 27:17.360]  I thought there were cameras already in all the subway cars.
[27:17.520 --> 27:19.400]  There seemed to be cameras in all the buses.
[27:19.900 --> 27:21.960]  You know, I fought caller ID.
[27:22.560 --> 27:26.340]  And there came a time where I realized, you know what, that battle is over.
[27:26.340 --> 27:27.300]  And I lost.
[27:27.640 --> 27:30.260]  I think we're at a similar point here.
[27:30.500 --> 27:33.020]  I don't know what the point of getting outraged at this is.
[27:33.160 --> 27:34.060]  It's going to happen.
[27:34.260 --> 27:35.460]  People embrace it.
[27:35.620 --> 27:37.600]  It's happened in a lot of places already.
[27:39.740 --> 27:45.360]  I really think we should just make our peace with it and fight the abuse of this.
[27:45.600 --> 27:49.960]  But to say don't put surveillance cameras in subway cars, I don't know.
[27:50.020 --> 27:50.580]  What do you guys think?
[27:51.900 --> 28:05.660]  I mean, this one's an interesting one, too, because I think we have to be somewhat on the fence here, but also question the timing, the motivation, and the reasoning behind this particular proposal.
[28:05.920 --> 28:17.860]  I think it's very clear that having cameras on the subway would certainly have some form of deterrent effect on crime that happens on subway cars.
[28:18.000 --> 28:21.700]  I think we can all agree that there would be a deterrent effect.
[28:21.700 --> 28:23.840]  And that's one of the motivations here.
[28:24.720 --> 28:37.020]  But the subway crime issue really got out of hand during the first stages of the pandemic, when people weren't really riding the subway because of COVID.
[28:37.540 --> 28:40.160]  And then crime got out of hand.
[28:40.160 --> 28:48.220]  And then as people started to come back to work slowly but surely, there was much, much more crime happening on the subways.
[28:48.320 --> 28:53.640]  And the subways, I think we can also all agree, were a bit of a scary and weird place in the middle of the pandemic.
[28:53.840 --> 28:56.540]  It wasn't a fun place to be at all.
[28:56.620 --> 29:00.320]  There was always, you know, some jerk on every subway car not wearing a mask.
[29:00.440 --> 29:02.680]  And it was strange, right?
[29:03.460 --> 29:08.200]  But now, you ride the subway, and it's almost like we're back to normal, in a sense.
[29:08.380 --> 29:13.580]  You know, there are very few people wearing masks because, you know, I don't want to say we're totally through the pandemic.
[29:13.580 --> 29:15.640]  That's not the argument, and it's a bit of a point.
[29:15.900 --> 29:18.980]  Somebody already said that, so you wouldn't be alone if you said that now.
[29:19.140 --> 29:19.840]  Yeah, I agree.
[29:20.120 --> 29:21.340]  I'm not sure I agree with that.
[29:21.340 --> 29:38.780]  But the issue I'm raising, and the point I'm making here, is that I think that the subway camera proposal is trying to solve a problem that is already being solved, or maybe doesn't even exist anymore, which is rampant crime on the subway.
[29:39.240 --> 29:51.940]  And that initiatives like this, things that impact privacy, should really not be taken lightly, even though we might have thought that there were cameras before, and there are cameras on almost every single subway platform.
[29:52.260 --> 29:56.140]  I think that, you know, the public here should really be included in the discussion.
[29:56.300 --> 30:10.520]  And much like when you're erecting a new building, or excavating a new site, or some kind of environmental impact analysis that has to be done before you can erect a new building, or drill a well, or something like that, I think that for these types of initiatives,
[30:10.920 --> 30:18.820]  there should be some kind of privacy impact analysis or assessment that weighs the public benefit against the detriment of personal privacy.
[30:19.120 --> 30:35.200]  And that if we do agree, and I think it wouldn't be an unreasonable proposal to put cameras in subway cars, that this data, and I think you're right about this, Emmanuel, that on the back end of it, the data should be very highly controlled.
[30:35.680 --> 30:37.760]  Access to the data needs to be audited.
[30:38.000 --> 30:46.040]  There needs to be long trails and logs of who had, who touched that data, why and for what purpose, and on whose authority was access granted.
[30:46.240 --> 30:47.760]  Was it judicial authority?
[30:47.900 --> 30:49.020]  Was it executive authority?
[30:49.280 --> 30:53.960]  So the data itself, I think, has to be really highly regulated, and certainly secure.
[30:54.120 --> 31:01.300]  It wasn't too long ago, I think it was just last year, we were talking about a massive breach of security cameras through Verkata.
[31:01.960 --> 31:11.200]  And I think that there have to be very highly specific and narrow reasons why that data and that footage could be accessed.
[31:11.380 --> 31:16.980]  And it includes some kind of real-time monitoring of law enforcement.
[31:17.300 --> 31:30.160]  So I think accessing, or rather auditing accesses to this data and having some kind of transparency report open to the public is going to keep these subway cameras continuously in the public debate.
[31:30.440 --> 31:43.520]  Yeah, I think that's a good point that I think MTAs, law enforcement, they probably are the first people to handle all the video anyway, and as a normal part of operating.
[31:43.760 --> 31:55.920]  So, and the point you raise about platforms, they're already chock full of cameras, like ridiculously, along with everything that's above ground, and on the street level, going to above ground platforms included.
[31:56.160 --> 31:58.680]  So it's like, this is just adding coverage.
[31:58.780 --> 32:04.780]  And I think it's an intentional look at how, where there are blind spots.
[32:04.960 --> 32:10.840]  And I think these subway cars end up being blind spots when crime occurs on the cars themselves.
[32:11.040 --> 32:19.000]  And you have a great point that, you know, that a lot has to be considered as far as the overall impact and long-term handling of all of this.
[32:19.100 --> 32:23.960]  But one thing that strikes me is that it's not necessarily going to be a lot of retrofitting.
[32:24.280 --> 32:33.120]  It's more that a lot of, as the subway changes some of their rolling stock and gets newer cars, this is like the default.
[32:33.380 --> 32:37.000]  It's built into most new subway carriages.
[32:37.320 --> 32:37.660]  That's true.
[32:37.820 --> 32:38.420]  Gila then, Rob.
[32:39.100 --> 32:44.400]  So I guess my other question is, what is the ultimate point of this existing?
[32:44.640 --> 32:52.080]  Is somebody going to be monitoring each of the 10,000 plus feeds that's happening at any minute?
[32:52.260 --> 32:54.940]  Is someone going to say, hey, something is happening?
[32:55.160 --> 33:01.800]  And then dispatch law enforcement to a car in the middle of a tunnel underneath the river?
[33:02.340 --> 33:04.240]  Like, how is this going?
[33:04.980 --> 33:06.560]  I'm not even thinking about privacy concerns.
[33:06.600 --> 33:10.540]  I'm just thinking about how on earth this is going to work and what ultimately the end game is here.
[33:10.820 --> 33:18.040]  Because if cars are, excuse me, cameras are on platforms, is that accomplishing anything.
[33:18.240 --> 33:27.380]  Now I'm concerned that if our train is stopped and I lean up against my husband because it's 11 o'clock at night and now I'm taking up two seats, am I going to get a ticket in the mail?
[33:28.400 --> 33:32.060]  Like, are they going to match that to my Omnicard and say, hey, that was you.
[33:32.360 --> 33:37.960]  And I'm going to get a ticket for taking up two seats on an empty subway car because there's a camera and it's on me.
[33:38.540 --> 33:39.640]  At last, Justice.
[33:40.000 --> 33:40.400]  Go ahead, Rob.
[33:41.580 --> 33:48.320]  That ties a bit into my concern with this because, Alex, you mentioned us all basically agreeing that cameras will deter crime.
[33:48.500 --> 33:49.200]  I disagree.
[33:49.780 --> 33:51.940]  I don't think cameras are deterrents.
[33:52.040 --> 33:54.060]  They're not going to stop a crime from taking place.
[33:54.360 --> 33:56.020]  This has been borne out by studies.
[33:56.200 --> 34:02.820]  I'm looking at a study from 2008, a release from 2008 by the ACLU who has concerns with this situation.
[34:03.620 --> 34:06.960]  And basically, cameras don't have any appreciable effect.
[34:07.200 --> 34:11.680]  They have not been found to have any appreciable effect on whether or not crime happens.
[34:11.900 --> 34:16.880]  Yes, if a crime happens, you can use the recording and try and track down who did it.
[34:17.080 --> 34:18.780]  If you're lucky, maybe it'll help.
[34:18.900 --> 34:26.360]  If you're not, like with the subway shootings in spring of this year, the cameras will be there, but people will find out afterward that half of them don't work.
[34:26.600 --> 34:33.740]  The MTA has already demonstrated that they're unable to keep the cameras they have working, and now we want to add thousands more.
[34:34.060 --> 34:40.040]  I don't understand that argument, though, because saying that they're inept and they don't work properly.
[34:40.360 --> 34:45.360]  And that's the reason why we shouldn't have more because you're not good enough at keeping them operating.
[34:45.620 --> 34:50.240]  It just sounds like you want them to do a better job so that they can have more cameras.
[34:50.780 --> 34:57.200]  I'm not saying that that's a reason we shouldn't have them, but I'm saying that the MTA has already demonstrated they don't know how to use these things properly.
[34:57.480 --> 35:03.080]  But if they do, if in some perfect world these are all working, it's not going to protect people in the subway car.
[35:03.220 --> 35:05.200]  It's not going to stop the crime from taking place.
[35:05.320 --> 35:17.980]  And the sort of people who attack people on subways, who cause all kinds of mayhem and damage and things, I don't think that's the sort of person who's going to look up, see a camera, and rethink their life decisions.
[35:18.120 --> 35:21.500]  Well, let's not generalize criminals because they're all different.
[35:21.660 --> 35:22.780]  They come from all different backgrounds.
[35:23.080 --> 35:26.440]  And one person might see a camera and say, okay, I'm not going to commit this crime there.
[35:26.620 --> 35:30.580]  I mean, in England, not to keep harping on England, they're a surveillance state.
[35:30.760 --> 35:37.060]  They found that most criminals just commit their crimes off camera, but they still commit the crime.
[35:37.200 --> 35:39.140]  They just know where the camera is, and they go somewhere else.
[35:39.460 --> 35:44.020]  So, you know, we can't say for certain that it's not going to have a deterrent effect.
[35:44.040 --> 35:44.740]  But I agree.
[35:44.740 --> 35:47.040]  This is mostly for after the fact.
[35:47.180 --> 35:51.760]  Like, for instance, the subway shooter is what everyone's pointing at, knowing if those cameras did work.
[35:51.880 --> 35:55.160]  I think we all wanted them to work at that point so they could find the guy quicker.
[35:55.500 --> 36:01.160]  But eventually they did find the person because people were looking out for a particular image.
[36:02.000 --> 36:12.420]  But I do think if they're working properly and something happens, they can see, okay, where did this person go and where they go after that.
[36:12.620 --> 36:16.040]  But that can also be a problem for somebody who didn't commit a crime.
[36:16.140 --> 36:21.800]  But are we thinking that is what they are going to do with the information?
[36:21.800 --> 36:25.520]  Are they going to start tracking people who aren't suspected of committing crimes?
[36:25.700 --> 36:28.200]  How is our privacy in danger here specifically?
[36:29.640 --> 36:40.860]  Well, I think that that's the reason why the data has to be extremely highly controlled and audited and can only be accessed for certain narrow reasons.
[36:41.280 --> 36:54.660]  You know, I think that, you know, other than crime, there's also going to be some other reasons, legitimate reasons why I think there should be access to this particular footage if it does, in fact, exist in the subway car.
[36:54.780 --> 37:09.100]  I mean, for instance, you know, what if something happened to a child, if the child went missing, or let's say there's, you know, a person with Alzheimer's who is lost, or something happens to something, there's somebody innocuous, or something is even lost,
[37:09.280 --> 37:10.900]  let's say, on a subway platform.
[37:11.040 --> 37:13.040]  Somebody left something valuable.
[37:13.380 --> 37:19.640]  You know, there's all these other reasons why I think the CCTV footage could be helpful in certain ways.
[37:19.860 --> 37:38.280]  But I also, I tend to disagree, you know, with the ACLU's commissioned, you know, report on this as well, Rob, in the sense that I can agree to a certain extent that, yes, there's still going to be crime on subways, and cameras aren't going to solve it all.
[37:38.420 --> 37:45.500]  But I do think it will deter certain people from committing offenses that they would, they know they would otherwise have gotten away with.
[37:45.600 --> 37:51.940]  And I think it will also deter people from minor annoyances, things like, you know, harassment.
[37:51.940 --> 38:02.840]  I think it will also decrease the, the type of that, and severity of harassment that, that women are, would be subjected to on, on subway cars as well.
[38:02.900 --> 38:08.060]  Because if you know you're being monitored, you're going to regulate your own behavior.
[38:08.400 --> 38:24.280]  But it does not get away from the fact that, you know, again, for the very same reason that I oppose, you know, the notion of ring cameras being everywhere, that we are living this life now, where every single thing we do, we have to assume is being inspected,
[38:24.500 --> 38:26.880]  audited, and perhaps retained forever.
[38:27.060 --> 38:29.540]  But let's also remember, this is a two way street.
[38:30.120 --> 38:43.440]  Look at what happened in Hong Kong a couple of years ago, where the police or these ununiform security people burst onto a subway train and beat the living crap out of innocent people.
[38:43.620 --> 38:46.580]  And that was captured, that was captured on surveillance.
[38:47.060 --> 39:00.700]  And, you know, these things, you know, all the injustices that we see perpetrated against innocent people, a lot of it is captured by security cameras, and certainly by, by our phones too, which is another form of, of, of surveillance.
[39:00.980 --> 39:01.340]  Go ahead, Gila.
[39:01.700 --> 39:20.820]  So I think, uh, Alex, just seizing on something that you said, a lot of, as you know, the woman here, I can say that sometimes the harassment that women face, isn't going to get captured on video, because if it's just some dude, it looks like he's on his phone,
[39:20.900 --> 39:29.900]  but it turns out he's upskirting you, or it turns out that he's creeping on you while ostensibly playing Pokemon Go on his phone.
[39:29.900 --> 39:31.080]  This is just a hypothetical.
[39:31.360 --> 39:32.220]  It didn't happen to me.
[39:32.420 --> 39:36.640]  But these are things that cameras aren't going to help us find.
[39:36.820 --> 39:39.040]  But you guys, I have an idea.
[39:39.420 --> 39:40.320]  More cameras.
[39:41.180 --> 39:42.500]  Well, sort of, yeah.
[39:42.700 --> 39:48.380]  I think we could solve the MTA's budget problem, create unlimited content.
[39:49.080 --> 40:02.880]  What if the MTA and Amazon got into partnership and all the cameras on the trains were ring cameras, thus creating unlimited content for ring nation, fixing the MTA's money problems.
[40:03.020 --> 40:06.820]  You guys, I think I may have just like, this is it solved, solved everything.
[40:06.960 --> 40:08.120]  This is the one ring transit.
[40:08.240 --> 40:09.300]  Alex, get on this one right away.
[40:09.420 --> 40:10.140]  Ring transit.
[40:10.300 --> 40:10.940]  That's the idea.
[40:11.100 --> 40:12.460]  That's the, that's the show right there.
[40:12.540 --> 40:13.000]  Ring transit.
[40:13.180 --> 40:13.820]  And you know what?
[40:13.820 --> 40:14.820]  It doesn't have to be in New York.
[40:14.960 --> 40:15.460]  It can be in Chicago.
[40:15.660 --> 40:16.100]  It can be in Tokyo.
[40:16.240 --> 40:16.980]  It can be all over the place.
[40:17.160 --> 40:20.440]  We basically record people as they do funny things on the train.
[40:20.600 --> 40:22.580]  And if they want to get somewhere, they have to agree to be filmed.
[40:22.880 --> 40:24.420]  And, and we get all the profit.
[40:24.880 --> 40:25.840]  Let's talk about this out there.
[40:25.900 --> 40:32.580]  It's not like swiping your MetroCard is, swiping your, your MetroCard or, you know, hitting your Omni or whatever, getting into the system.
[40:33.260 --> 40:36.220]  That is your blanket consent for being filmed.
[40:36.600 --> 40:39.500]  Well, we can also put a wrap on the train that is the release.
[40:39.800 --> 40:41.980]  So you read it as the door opens.
[40:41.980 --> 40:44.140]  And my more advertising that, uh, okay.
[40:44.800 --> 40:45.060]  Uh, yes.
[40:45.060 --> 40:46.120]  And clear the closing doors.
[40:46.300 --> 40:47.320]  Everything you do is on camera.
[40:47.480 --> 40:49.800]  Just make the button on a checkbox or something.
[40:49.840 --> 40:51.240]  We come up with some great ideas on this show.
[40:51.380 --> 40:51.800]  Go ahead, Alex.
[40:52.360 --> 40:53.400]  Another great idea.
[40:53.580 --> 40:57.720]  I think the title of the show can be, it's showtime.
[40:59.960 --> 41:01.560]  I came up with ring transit.
[41:01.680 --> 41:02.220]  You don't like that?
[41:02.300 --> 41:02.420]  Yeah.
[41:02.480 --> 41:03.460]  I think that's already used.
[41:03.800 --> 41:04.300]  All right.
[41:04.340 --> 41:05.460]  I mean, ring transit, all right.
[41:05.540 --> 41:06.840]  But yeah, it's showtime.
[41:07.060 --> 41:10.660]  A phrase all New Yorkers who are familiar with who ride the subway.
[41:10.960 --> 41:11.420]  All right.
[41:11.520 --> 41:13.260]  Believe it or not, there are other stories going on.
[41:13.420 --> 41:24.680]  Um, and by the way, uh, when we run out of time, which will be soon, uh, you can join us at eight o'clock on off the hook overtime over on YouTube, youtube.com slash channel 2600 is how you get there.
[41:25.240 --> 41:29.620]  And, um, you can just also just click on the link on the 2600.com webpage.
[41:30.180 --> 41:34.840]  And please write to us here at off the hook O T H at 2600.com.
[41:34.840 --> 41:43.660]  And don't forget to continue supporting WBAI go to WBAI.org or give to WBAI.org.
[41:43.660 --> 41:47.220]  Give the number to WBAI.org and, uh, support the place.
[41:47.220 --> 41:53.740]  So we can continue having spirited conversations like this, where we test our, uh, belief systems and all sorts of other things.
[41:53.900 --> 42:02.140]  So, um, U S government officials are adding data from as many as 10,000 electronic devices every year to a massive database.
[42:02.500 --> 42:12.200]  They've compiled from cell phones, iPads, and computers seized from criminals at the count, uh, the country's airports, seaports, and border crossings.
[42:12.500 --> 42:13.800]  Oh, wait, I read that wrong.
[42:13.900 --> 42:14.480]  I said criminals.
[42:14.620 --> 42:15.400]  I meant travelers.
[42:16.100 --> 42:17.200]  They're not criminals.
[42:17.460 --> 42:25.160]  Uh, the rapid expansion of the database and the ability of 2,700 customs and border patrol officers to access it without a warrant.
[42:25.440 --> 42:41.780]  Two details, uh, not previously known about the database have raised alarms in Congress about what use the government has made of the information, much of which is captured from people not suspected of any crime, not even suspected of any crime.
[42:42.160 --> 42:50.520]  CPB officials, uh, I'm sorry, CBP officials, uh, told congressional staff, the data is maintained for only 15 years.
[42:51.200 --> 42:59.600]  Details of the database were released last Thursday in a letter to CBP commissioner, Chris, uh, Magnus from Senator Ron Wyden.
[42:59.820 --> 43:02.400]  Why is it always Senator Ron Wyden that's on top of these things?
[43:02.500 --> 43:03.880]  Why does nobody else seem to care?
[43:05.080 --> 43:06.080]  It's depressing.
[43:06.440 --> 43:15.080]  He, uh, uh, criticized the agency for allowing indiscriminate rifling through Americans, private records and call for stronger privacy protections.
[43:15.240 --> 43:18.880]  I'm sorry, if you're a Senator out there and I just defended you, prove me wrong.
[43:19.140 --> 43:19.320]  Okay.
[43:19.440 --> 43:25.040]  Just express an interest in it and, and, you know, stand behind Ron Wyden because, uh, this is, this is wrong.
[43:25.260 --> 43:34.020]  I mean, you know, you're at the border, you're, you're crossing from one country to another and they, they take your phone, they take your computer and, um, they, they, they scan it.
[43:34.080 --> 43:36.920]  They look through your contacts who knows what they do.
[43:37.120 --> 43:43.400]  Uh, and if you refuse, they just take it, they take it and they can keep it for months and, and really go through it at that point.
[43:44.000 --> 43:46.000]  And, uh, that's not right.
[43:46.180 --> 43:48.220]  Under any circumstance, that is not right.
[43:48.340 --> 43:54.480]  I've never had to deal with that myself, but I imagine if I did, I, I would, I would not give it, uh, give it up easily.
[43:54.800 --> 44:02.460]  I would try to wipe it probably because, you know, regardless of what's on it, any device, it's none of their damn business.
[44:02.780 --> 44:08.480]  Unless you are suspected of a specific crime and you're under investigation, they should not be able to do that.
[44:08.800 --> 44:11.420]  Alex, is this fantasy that I'm engaged in here?
[44:11.580 --> 44:13.460]  Is it, or has, has reality changed?
[44:14.240 --> 44:33.040]  Uh, it's, it's a, a unique factual circumstance, I think, that we're dealing with here where, you know, it's been called for a long time, you know, airports and borders are, are, uh, infamously known as fourth amendment free zones.
[44:33.240 --> 44:47.580]  And so what I see happening here is there are CBP, Customs and Border Protection, is utilizing this essentially fourth amendment free zone to inspect and seize travelers as devices.
[44:48.120 --> 44:52.320]  And then it collects that data and it puts it into a different context.
[44:52.680 --> 45:01.560]  And now that that data is in, let's say a database or it's searchable or it's indexable, it might be tied to a certain person's name, identity, context, et cetera.
[45:02.340 --> 45:07.940]  You're no longer storing that data within the confines of this fourth amendment free zone.
[45:08.440 --> 45:17.420]  It's now in a place that should reasonably be subject to the fourth amendment and, and should only be accessible upon the showing of probable cause.
[45:17.640 --> 45:22.080]  And there should be some form of judicial oversight, you know, for access to this type of data.
[45:22.220 --> 45:40.600]  I think the fact that it was acquired in a context where the fourth amendment does not necessarily have as strong a reach as, uh, as it wouldn't let's say your house is just a way of the government performing an end run around our privacy rights.
[45:40.800 --> 45:43.280]  But yeah, I can't say, I can't say I'm surprised.
[45:43.380 --> 45:48.580]  I don't think anybody should be that the data is being abused, uh, at this stage.
[45:48.880 --> 45:52.380]  You know, my objection was taking the data in the first place.
[45:52.460 --> 45:54.480]  And I, I, I feel like we've given up on that.
[45:54.560 --> 46:01.840]  I feel like we're saying that for some reason at the border, you don't have the same constitutional rights as you do in your home.
[46:02.220 --> 46:04.300]  And I, I, when did that get decided?
[46:04.560 --> 46:14.940]  When, when, when was it, uh, decided for us that, yeah, they can, they can go through all your, your, your personal electronic data if you're standing over here in this country, as opposed to over there.
[46:18.930 --> 46:19.370]  Yeah.
[46:19.530 --> 46:34.130]  This, this whole thing is really strange to be honest with you, because you know, how, how people's devices are being seized and inspected and uploaded and data retained is, is, is something I think that these articles don't necessarily touch upon as well.
[46:34.310 --> 46:40.110]  And I think that, you know, that, that to me is a threshold issue that needs to be investigated.
[46:40.330 --> 46:41.810]  And it's something that's been going on for a while.
[46:41.810 --> 46:50.430]  So it's not as sexy a story as this, this new database, but the very fact that, uh, of the data collection itself is, is really problematic to me.
[46:51.910 --> 46:53.990]  Uh, I've gotten an update actually.
[46:54.210 --> 46:58.070]  Ron Wyden apparently is not the only senator, uh, who cares about this.
[46:58.510 --> 47:12.470]  Um, there was a bill introduced, um, basically, um, um, to, to require, this happened last year to require border officials to get a warrant before searching a traveler's device.
[47:12.790 --> 47:16.210]  And that, uh, bill was introduced by Senator Ron Wyden.
[47:16.370 --> 47:17.950]  And also, are you ready?
[47:18.670 --> 47:20.110]  Senator Rand Paul.
[47:20.950 --> 47:21.350]  Yeah.
[47:21.470 --> 47:33.590]  I, I, I, I, I saw that simultaneous look of disappointment and despair on everyone's face, but you know, occasionally, occasionally he comes up with a decent idea or proposal, but, uh, everybody else, where are you?
[47:34.050 --> 47:34.850]  How about that?
[47:34.990 --> 47:36.570]  Do you want Rand Paul to take credit for this?
[47:36.990 --> 47:38.790]  Come on, we can do better.
[47:39.390 --> 47:40.190]  This is wrong.
[47:40.310 --> 47:40.870]  This is wrong.
[47:41.050 --> 47:45.230]  And, uh, we'd like to hear from anybody who has experienced something like this and what, what you went through.
[47:45.510 --> 47:47.010]  OTH at 2600.com.
[47:47.170 --> 47:47.510]  If you did.
[47:47.510 --> 47:48.470]  Yeah.
[47:48.630 --> 47:54.450]  I really am interested in the, uh, notion of, uh, being secure in your papers, uh, your documents.
[47:54.590 --> 48:14.770]  This is no different in, in the, uh, fourth, um, fourth amendment, uh, search and seizure, uh, uh, clauses and that, that, that stuff itself seems to me to apply regardless of the, the actual medium with which it's stored and, and whether you're going through this zone or not,
[48:15.370 --> 48:19.410]  um, just being a traveler, you should not be suspected of being a criminal.
[48:19.710 --> 48:28.090]  I think that is a really bad, uh, um, uh, way to treat people that are going out and going across borders.
[48:28.310 --> 48:30.190]  They even say they're not suspected of being a criminal.
[48:30.430 --> 48:34.510]  You know, what's to stop a customs agent from saying, Hey, you know, she looks hot.
[48:34.610 --> 48:39.490]  I'd like to see her contacts and, and basically just doing that because he can, you know, that's wrong.
[48:39.550 --> 48:40.370]  And that's an abuse.
[48:40.550 --> 48:44.650]  And don't be surprised when that happens, because we all know that's going to happen.
[48:44.890 --> 49:05.790]  Well, and especially since this medium itself is imminent, uh, imminently more, uh, uh, or infinitely more, sorry, uh, uh, copyable and, and, um, modifiable like this, uh, chain of custody, how it is physically handled, um, can be interfered with a lot more readily,
[49:05.790 --> 49:07.590]  uh, and authenticating things.
[49:07.750 --> 49:14.450]  And you're, you're creating, um, a situation where someone who is not prepared to defend themselves.
[49:14.710 --> 49:20.950]  And as Alex stated, are in a historical, uh, um, legal zone that is distinct.
[49:21.190 --> 49:27.470]  Um, it's a way of victimizing people that is, uh, really, really, uh, insidious.
[49:27.470 --> 49:42.390]  So we only have one minute left, but, um, uh, and in that minute, um, ways of preventing this, if you're traveling, um, I mean, can you put everything on your phone onto a SIM card and just simply hide that SIM card somewhere else, or maybe swallow it and get it back in a couple of days?
[49:42.610 --> 49:44.350]  What, uh, what do we suggest quickly?
[49:44.510 --> 49:46.790]  I've heard over the years, a lot of different ways to do it.
[49:46.850 --> 49:59.730]  Um, but you could have multiple devices and, um, basically bring one that is, uh, uh, uh, unused to, uh, the location you're going and, uh, use secure methods to download it, uh, onto the new device.
[49:59.850 --> 50:00.350]  Once you get there.
[50:00.450 --> 50:01.130]  Alex, very quickly.
[50:01.770 --> 50:01.910]  Yeah.
[50:02.030 --> 50:10.270]  I think it's be very difficult to repeat this because it's a CBP directive that gives officers the authority to look at essentially anyone's device and scroll through it.
[50:10.550 --> 50:16.410]  If they, if you refuse or try to frustrate that your device could be seized apparently for up to five days.
[50:16.530 --> 50:17.410]  The way to do... Okay, fine.
[50:17.530 --> 50:23.430]  But, uh, you, you, you frustrated, uh, well beforehand and you put your data somewhere else safe to, to avoid this kind of thing.
[50:23.490 --> 50:24.610]  That's if you care about your privacy.
[50:24.750 --> 50:26.610]  Uh, Rob, if you can do this in 15 seconds.
[50:27.170 --> 50:27.490]  Yeah.
[50:27.530 --> 50:33.110]  If you factory reset your phone backing everything up first that you want to keep, but, uh, factory reset it, uh, right before your trip.
[50:33.390 --> 50:37.350]  Then, uh, when they, when they ask you why, why your phone has nothing on it, just say, I'm a nervous traveler.
[50:37.490 --> 50:40.370]  I don't want to lose my, you know, have my identity stolen or anything like that.
[50:40.770 --> 50:44.450]  I did that once where I, I came through absolutely nothing, no baggage, no phone, no nothing.
[50:44.850 --> 50:48.610]  I got a weird look, but they said, okay, welcome to the USA.
[50:48.970 --> 50:49.970]  Don't make something up.
[50:50.110 --> 50:56.250]  We are, we are out of time, but we're going over to YouTube over time, uh, channel 2600.
[50:56.590 --> 50:58.530]  We'll see you there and we'll see you next week.
[50:59.230 --> 51:01.790]  OTH at 2600.com.
[51:01.910 --> 51:02.150]  Good night.
[51:02.150 --> 51:24.780]  He made his way to the border, in the shadow, under the trees, down by a stream, in a hollow.
[51:26.120 --> 51:31.820]  Turn your head, feel the breeze.
[51:35.040 --> 51:39.920]  And the red queen was waiting for the news.
[51:41.160 --> 51:44.880]  For the white king to move.
[51:47.180 --> 52:01.780]  And the balance hung upon the head of one who tried to stand in the shadows and keep his own become a secret of times.
[52:07.930 --> 52:19.230]  They let him in by a back way, into a chamber, reserved for the queen.
[52:22.210 --> 52:34.390]  She took the note that he gave her, opened it slowly, and started to read.
[52:36.850 --> 52:42.190]  Run to the treasury, and bring me back some gold.
[52:43.470 --> 52:47.070]  Give it to the poor new game, she cried.
[52:49.910 --> 52:55.350]  She says, the white king thinks the game of chess is wrong.
[52:56.270 --> 52:59.430]  The poor, the poor, she's crowded down.
[52:59.710 --> 53:01.810]  But this is what she told.
[53:02.210 --> 53:03.930]  You got the way to go.
[53:09.250 --> 53:15.150]  Go to the stone by the dungeon.
[53:15.990 --> 53:18.650]  Take all the red paint.
[53:19.270 --> 53:21.670]  Take all the white.
[53:24.700 --> 53:30.020]  Make up a new one color.
[53:31.160 --> 53:33.180]  Cover your neighbor.
[53:34.280 --> 53:36.960]  We'll be all right.
[53:39.240 --> 53:44.740]  There'll be no game today, she cried across the board.
[53:45.920 --> 53:49.160]  Every day will be a holiday.
[53:52.480 --> 53:57.800]  And all the pieces cheer, there's tiny spread of more.
[53:58.420 --> 54:01.240]  And the pink green sat.
[54:01.680 --> 54:06.580]  And the smile on the cat, we smile on the black.
[00:00.620 --> 00:01.940]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[00:02.080 --> 00:04.140]  The program is off the hook over time.
[00:04.400 --> 00:05.380]  It's 8 p.m.
[00:05.800 --> 00:06.280]  Eastern Time.
[00:07.180 --> 00:12.560]  And, um... Yes, I think I've made it.
[00:12.600 --> 00:13.180]  Have I made it, Kyle?
[00:13.300 --> 00:15.400]  You came over here to adjust some things.
[00:16.100 --> 00:17.240]  No, it's just double-checking.
[00:17.280 --> 00:18.100]  Double-checking, okay.
[00:18.440 --> 00:19.440]  I just got here, too.
[00:19.620 --> 00:23.800]  It was a long transition for me.
[00:24.840 --> 00:26.800]  It's a malfunction, but I'm here now.
[00:26.800 --> 00:28.920]  I wouldn't call it a malfunction, just a double-checking.
[00:29.640 --> 00:31.360]  Did our Skype friends make it?
[00:31.540 --> 00:32.120]  I just want to see levels.
[00:32.480 --> 00:33.340]  Rob, are you okay?
[00:34.020 --> 00:35.020]  I am fine.
[00:35.260 --> 00:36.800]  Okay, and Gila, you're there, too?
[00:36.900 --> 00:37.400]  Also fine.
[00:37.660 --> 00:38.140]  Also fine.
[00:38.360 --> 00:40.740]  And YouTube seems to be fine, as well.
[00:41.040 --> 00:43.220]  I don't see Alex anywhere.
[00:44.540 --> 00:45.140]  You don't?
[00:45.200 --> 00:45.680]  I'm right here.
[00:45.780 --> 00:46.580]  I don't hear him, either.
[00:46.800 --> 00:48.120]  I don't see or hear Alex.
[00:49.000 --> 00:49.380]  No, I'm kidding.
[00:49.640 --> 00:50.040]  I'm kidding.
[00:50.220 --> 00:52.700]  I both see and hear you, but I wanted to message you a little bit.
[00:53.000 --> 00:53.400]  All right.
[00:54.180 --> 00:55.160]  All in good fun.
[00:55.280 --> 00:57.360]  We kid ourselves sometimes.
[00:57.620 --> 00:58.440]  It's going to be one of those overtimes.
[00:58.460 --> 00:59.840]  It's going to be one of those overtimes.
[01:00.480 --> 01:04.260]  Rob, can you verify, in fact, that we made it?
[01:05.800 --> 01:08.300]  We have indeed made it, and we sound good.
[01:09.240 --> 01:09.560]  Okay.
[01:10.300 --> 01:13.440]  Oh, I see you moved the table that I used to hold all my stories, Kyle.
[01:13.520 --> 01:14.000]  Thank you for that.
[01:14.100 --> 01:17.360]  Now I have nothing to put my stories on.
[01:17.660 --> 01:18.160]  That's okay.
[01:18.300 --> 01:19.360]  No, you don't have to run and get it.
[01:20.580 --> 01:23.420]  Actually, you moved my stories, too, though, so I don't have the stories to read.
[01:23.780 --> 01:24.120]  Wow.
[01:24.580 --> 01:25.160]  You're just taking...
[01:25.160 --> 01:26.620]  You know how he gets when he doesn't have his stories?
[01:27.280 --> 01:28.500]  I have nothing to talk about.
[01:29.600 --> 01:31.820]  If I'm not scripted, I've got nothing.
[01:32.020 --> 01:33.780]  I just can't... I can't wing it.
[01:35.460 --> 01:38.860]  Oh, you moved the table that had the stories on top of them out of the room.
[01:39.400 --> 01:40.320]  Very thorough there.
[01:40.400 --> 01:40.900]  Thank you for that.
[01:41.580 --> 01:47.540]  So we have all kinds of compromising of sites and things like that.
[01:47.640 --> 01:49.360]  That's so much fun.
[01:49.560 --> 01:51.420]  Did you hear about Grand Theft Auto?
[01:51.940 --> 01:52.380]  Yeah.
[01:52.680 --> 01:54.700]  Well, if you didn't hear about Grand Theft Auto, maybe you heard about Uber.
[01:54.880 --> 01:55.880]  Apparently, they're related.
[01:56.420 --> 01:58.280]  Uber got hacked, I think, last week.
[01:58.800 --> 02:02.580]  And that was followed by Grand Theft Auto, supposedly by the same people.
[02:03.340 --> 02:08.580]  Uber believes the hacker behind last week's breach is affiliated with the Lapsus...
[02:09.280 --> 02:10.000]  Am I pronouncing that?
[02:10.080 --> 02:11.420]  How do you pronounce a dollar sign?
[02:11.600 --> 02:13.620]  It's L-A-P-S-U-S dollar sign.
[02:13.700 --> 02:14.220]  How do you pronounce that?
[02:14.240 --> 02:15.340]  It's Lapsus.
[02:15.620 --> 02:16.940]  Yeah, but how do you pronounce the dollar sign?
[02:17.300 --> 02:18.000]  As an S.
[02:18.380 --> 02:20.060]  But there's already an S there.
[02:20.880 --> 02:21.100]  Yeah.
[02:21.440 --> 02:28.260]  You pronounce it similar, you know, I guess according to the letter of the alphabet to which it is most similar.
[02:28.860 --> 02:30.260]  Yeah, but then this...
[02:30.780 --> 02:32.500]  You know, I don't want to piss off these people.
[02:32.580 --> 02:33.400]  They're extortionists.
[02:33.700 --> 02:35.700]  Okay, I want to make sure I pronounce their name right.
[02:36.060 --> 02:36.880]  It's important.
[02:37.620 --> 02:42.860]  So, with all due respect, Lapsus people, just please send us a memo if we pronounce that wrong.
[02:42.860 --> 02:43.640]  We'll get it right.
[02:44.480 --> 02:52.720]  They are known for breaching other high-level tech companies such as Microsoft, Cisco, NVIDIA, Samsung, and Okta.
[02:52.920 --> 02:53.400]  Okta?
[02:54.160 --> 02:55.840]  I don't think I ever said Okta before.
[02:57.060 --> 02:58.020]  The company...
[02:58.020 --> 02:58.440]  What?
[02:58.600 --> 02:58.900]  Okta.
[02:59.060 --> 02:59.480]  Okta.
[02:59.480 --> 02:59.900]  Okta.
[03:00.020 --> 03:01.260]  I don't care if I mispronounce them.
[03:01.260 --> 03:11.040]  The company added that the attacker used the stolen credentials of an Uber EXT contractor in an MFA fatigue...
[03:11.040 --> 03:12.300]  Ok, what's with all the acronyms?
[03:12.380 --> 03:13.920]  I don't know what the acronyms mean.
[03:14.460 --> 03:16.000]  What's an EXT contractor?
[03:16.120 --> 03:16.740]  Someone tell me that?
[03:17.200 --> 03:17.640]  External.
[03:18.100 --> 03:19.580]  Well, why wouldn't they just say external?
[03:19.760 --> 03:21.240]  They capitalized EXT.
[03:21.520 --> 03:24.220]  Maybe it's an official program that they're titling.
[03:24.720 --> 03:26.260]  And I'm supposed to know about that.
[03:26.360 --> 03:26.880]  Referring to...
[03:26.880 --> 03:28.420]  Oh, what's an MFA fatigue attack?
[03:28.720 --> 03:30.160]  A multi-factor authentication.
[03:30.480 --> 03:30.740]  That's right.
[03:30.820 --> 03:31.500]  Yeah, I should have known that.
[03:31.600 --> 03:31.740]  Ok.
[03:33.660 --> 03:36.120]  I just get, you know...
[03:36.120 --> 03:38.180]  Also could be a master of fine arts attack.
[03:38.400 --> 03:39.720]  I doubt that very much.
[03:40.340 --> 03:41.180]  I really do.
[03:41.580 --> 03:42.860]  But I get acronym happy.
[03:43.000 --> 03:43.400]  You know, I just...
[03:43.400 --> 03:46.300]  There are too many of them, and I just don't know what any of them mean anymore.
[03:48.620 --> 03:49.420]  Anyway, so...
[03:49.420 --> 03:56.180]  MFA fatigue attack where the contractor was flooded with two-factor authentication login requests until one of them was accepted.
[03:56.380 --> 04:00.260]  So basically, a lot of two-factor authentication, that makes it a multi-factor authentication attack.
[04:00.560 --> 04:01.720]  Or fatigue attack.
[04:01.840 --> 04:02.900]  You just say, you know what?
[04:02.940 --> 04:03.460]  I give up.
[04:04.520 --> 04:05.680]  Kind of how I feel now.
[04:05.960 --> 04:15.820]  This social engineering tactic has become very popular and has been used in recent attacks targeting well-known companies worldwide, including Twitter, Robinhood, MailChimp, and Okta.
[04:16.440 --> 04:16.900]  Wait a minute.
[04:17.160 --> 04:18.300]  They were targeted before.
[04:18.300 --> 04:21.080]  Or they're going to end every single list of companies.
[04:21.080 --> 04:23.400]  It's going to be Okta, because they've always been targeted.
[04:23.940 --> 04:33.540]  Anyway, from there, the attacker accessed several other employee accounts, which ultimately gave the attacker elevated permissions to a number of tools, including G Suite and Slack.
[04:34.220 --> 04:36.020]  That's according to Uber's explanation.
[04:36.280 --> 04:47.080]  The attacker then posted a message to a company-wide Slack channel, which many of you saw, and reconfigured Uber's OpenDNS to display a graphic image to employees on some internal sites.
[04:47.080 --> 04:49.940]  I don't even want to speculate what the graphic image was.
[04:50.260 --> 05:05.080]  The company added that it found no evidence that the threat actor could access production systems that store sensitive user information, including personal and financial data, like credit card numbers, user bank account info, personal health data, or trip history.
[05:05.740 --> 05:08.800]  Why would you have personal health information for a customer?
[05:09.100 --> 05:15.920]  If you need assistance of some kind, or you have a condition, like you're hearing impaired, or maybe a visual impairment of some sort of...
[05:15.920 --> 05:16.500]  Oh, you tell Uber that?
[05:16.580 --> 05:17.160]  Okay, all right.
[05:17.160 --> 05:17.720]  Uber cares.
[05:19.080 --> 05:22.360]  Not enough to keep their system secure, apparently, but all right, fine.
[05:22.780 --> 05:26.460]  At the moment, the company is investigating the incident with help from the FBI and the U.S.
[05:26.800 --> 05:29.300]  Department of Justice as soon as they finish with Trump.
[05:29.300 --> 05:30.300]  It's going to take a while.
[05:31.660 --> 05:37.160]  So, anyway, as far as Grand Theft Auto, is anybody surprised by this?
[05:37.200 --> 05:38.420]  Somebody hacked Grand Theft Auto?
[05:38.920 --> 05:48.660]  I mean, for God's sake, it's a game about stealing cars and just doing whatever the hell you please, and somebody stole their site and did whatever the hell they pleased.
[05:48.840 --> 05:54.200]  And I think it's probably good publicity, you know, because more people are talking about Grand...
[05:54.200 --> 05:56.600]  I didn't know Grand Theft Auto was still around, but apparently it is.
[05:57.440 --> 06:10.380]  The hacker there claims to have stolen GTA V and VI source code and assets, GTA VI testing build, but is trying to extort Rockstar games to prevent further data from being released.
[06:11.120 --> 06:25.660]  However, the threat actor says they are accepting offers over $10,000 for the GTA V or Grand Theft Auto V source code and assets, but are not selling the Grand Theft Auto VI source code at this time.
[06:25.960 --> 06:28.580]  Because, folks, this is integrity, all right?
[06:28.740 --> 06:31.460]  You basically... you sell the old stuff first.
[06:31.460 --> 06:32.740]  You hold on to the new stuff.
[06:33.020 --> 06:37.280]  And you hold it and hope that it means something to the company.
[06:37.560 --> 06:42.000]  And you only release it if they don't treat you with the respect that you deserve.
[06:42.040 --> 06:44.160]  And that's how it works.
[06:44.600 --> 06:45.840]  Yeah, it's decorum.
[06:45.960 --> 06:46.960]  It's tradition.
[06:49.380 --> 07:11.280]  So, after members of a particular forum showed disbelief that the hack was real, the threat actor claimed he was behind the recent cyber attack on Uber and leaked screenshots of source code from both Grand Theft Auto V and Grand Theft Auto VI as further proof.
[07:11.940 --> 07:19.620]  Rockstar Games, the makers of Grand Theft Auto, have not released a statement or responded to any email concerning the attack.
[07:20.040 --> 07:21.220]  And this is from Bloomberg.
[07:21.560 --> 07:27.880]  And they have confirmed the attack, that the leak was valid after speaking to sources at Rockstar.
[07:30.820 --> 07:33.220]  I think people are still going to buy the game, you know?
[07:33.320 --> 07:35.640]  I think people are going to be excited about it and all that.
[07:36.460 --> 07:39.620]  It's just, there's more talk about it.
[07:39.700 --> 07:46.660]  I think that, though, it is one thing to mess with the group question here.
[07:47.780 --> 07:48.300]  Lazarus.
[07:48.920 --> 07:49.440]  Lazarus.
[07:50.400 --> 07:50.920]  Lazarus.
[07:52.400 --> 07:58.140]  But I think Rockstar might be pretty mad about this.
[07:58.300 --> 08:00.260]  I mean, mad enough to not even comment.
[08:00.560 --> 08:01.420]  Mad enough to kill?
[08:01.840 --> 08:02.820]  Oh, I don't know.
[08:02.880 --> 08:06.060]  I mean, what kind of formidable adversary are they?
[08:06.200 --> 08:09.340]  I mean, they're not necessarily your average lemonade stand.
[08:09.660 --> 08:10.680]  Alex, another idea here.
[08:11.540 --> 08:16.000]  Video game about a video game that gets hacked, all right?
[08:16.120 --> 08:32.580]  And basically, the executives at the video game company turn into these iconic figures that go out and do battle with the hackers that took over the previous video game that was part of the previous release.
[08:32.580 --> 08:34.060]  And that's the game.
[08:34.380 --> 08:35.660]  We just need a name for it.
[08:35.720 --> 08:37.900]  But that's our third idea tonight.
[08:39.300 --> 08:39.860]  Oh.
[08:40.200 --> 08:42.040]  I'm not exactly following.
[08:42.260 --> 08:43.420]  We can take that one offline.
[08:44.100 --> 08:44.440]  Hmm.
[08:44.900 --> 08:46.200]  We'll discuss this afterwards.
[08:46.400 --> 08:47.300]  Rob, go ahead.
[08:48.100 --> 08:50.820]  There was an update on this story on Monday.
[08:50.920 --> 08:52.300]  Rockstar did comment.
[08:52.520 --> 08:55.100]  They confirmed the intrusion.
[08:56.180 --> 08:56.980]  They're not mad.
[08:56.980 --> 08:58.400]  It seems just disappointed.
[08:59.720 --> 09:04.140]  They said, we're extremely disappointed to have any details of our next game shared with you all in this way.
[09:05.120 --> 09:10.880]  Our work on the next Grand Theft Auto game will continue as planned, and we remain as committed as ever to delivering an experience, yada, yada, yada.
[09:10.980 --> 09:11.980]  No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[09:12.060 --> 09:14.620]  What they should have said was, okay, yeah, you caught us.
[09:14.700 --> 09:15.160]  We did it.
[09:15.600 --> 09:17.420]  This was our attempt to get more publicity.
[09:17.780 --> 09:18.860]  What do you think of our hack?
[09:18.980 --> 09:19.880]  That's what they should have said.
[09:26.600 --> 09:27.820]  But the answer was very mad.
[09:28.260 --> 09:29.400]  But what would they have done?
[09:29.460 --> 09:29.980]  Hacked them again?
[09:30.120 --> 09:33.120]  They've already been hacked, so... I think they've already thought through some of these options.
[09:33.260 --> 09:40.520]  I mean, these are probably all the stages of reaction they're going through as they sort out their next steps.
[09:40.580 --> 09:42.000]  The 12 stages of being hacked.
[09:42.640 --> 09:44.300]  Oh, write that one down, Alex.
[09:44.340 --> 09:44.860]  That's number four.
[09:44.960 --> 09:45.760]  That's another good idea.
[09:45.940 --> 09:46.900]  That's like a pocket book.
[09:47.080 --> 09:48.200]  We're hot tonight, aren't we?
[09:48.200 --> 09:49.140]  I know, like...
[09:49.140 --> 09:50.100]  Christmas Carol.
[09:50.280 --> 09:51.620]  We could write it as a Christmas Carol.
[09:52.220 --> 09:53.240]  Oh, that's good, too.
[09:53.340 --> 09:54.900]  Yeah, and there's just enough time for that.
[09:55.260 --> 09:58.980]  I mean, they come out next month, so yeah, we should be able to put that together.
[09:59.400 --> 10:02.360]  Hey, our phone number is 802-321-4225.
[10:02.520 --> 10:02.820]  That's right.
[10:02.860 --> 10:03.860]  You can join the conversation.
[10:04.080 --> 10:04.800]  You can talk to us.
[10:04.880 --> 10:05.920]  802-321-HACK.
[10:06.720 --> 10:10.840]  No matter where you are, no matter who you are, we want to hear from you.
[10:10.900 --> 10:18.500]  So please give us a call and tell us what's on your mind or react to something that we might have said or correct us if we were wrong about something.
[10:20.640 --> 10:22.340]  We are interested in all of this.
[10:22.540 --> 10:24.080]  We want to know what's on your mind.
[10:24.280 --> 10:25.420]  We want to know what you're thinking.
[10:25.660 --> 10:34.540]  We want to know what you're thinking about any of the stories we talked about on Off the Hook Prime over on the radio in the past hour or anything else we're talking about here.
[10:34.740 --> 10:36.240]  Yeah, let's not make it to Aurelian.
[10:36.300 --> 10:37.320]  We don't want to know what you're thinking.
[10:37.640 --> 10:42.060]  We want to know what you're saying, you know, and I'm not going to do a mind probe or anything like that.
[10:42.200 --> 10:43.360]  We don't have that technology yet.
[10:44.000 --> 10:44.840]  Maybe you don't.
[10:45.320 --> 10:45.680]  Okay.
[10:45.840 --> 10:46.120]  All right.
[10:47.060 --> 10:47.880]  We have a call, Kyle?
[10:48.460 --> 10:48.760]  All right.
[10:49.040 --> 10:49.440]  Good evening.
[10:49.620 --> 10:50.380]  You're on Off Talk Overtime.
[10:50.460 --> 10:50.660]  Go ahead.
[10:53.840 --> 10:54.160]  Hello?
[10:54.160 --> 10:54.940]  Is anybody there?
[10:55.620 --> 10:56.060]  Hello, guys.
[10:56.120 --> 10:56.660]  How are you doing today?
[10:56.820 --> 10:57.360]  Hey, how are you doing?
[10:58.840 --> 11:10.920]  I just want to say, you guys, I'm just happy you still have that show on BAI, man, because like I told Rich Johnson, I said, at worst comes to worst, man.
[11:11.500 --> 11:14.540]  The station should try to get a SiriusXM channel.
[11:15.100 --> 11:16.060]  But that's another topic.
[11:16.080 --> 11:18.080]  I want to talk about, like, the MTA situation.
[11:18.400 --> 11:18.560]  Okay.
[11:18.560 --> 11:20.120]  I would like a SiriusXM channel.
[11:20.360 --> 11:23.480]  In fact, you know, back when they first started, I think we were on the verge of getting one.
[11:23.620 --> 11:26.140]  And then the person that was going to get us one got fired.
[11:26.320 --> 11:27.320]  So we never got one.
[11:27.400 --> 11:32.060]  But boy, there's a lot of crap on SiriusXM that could be replaced by something like BAI.
[11:32.200 --> 11:33.040]  I'd like to see that.
[11:34.340 --> 11:34.880]  Precisely, man.
[11:36.180 --> 11:41.560]  So the thing with the MTA, man, the MTA, they always shoot themselves in the foot, man.
[11:41.960 --> 11:43.840]  They don't know how to order buses.
[11:44.760 --> 11:48.400]  They put chains on the buses' tires during the wintertime.
[11:48.840 --> 11:50.600]  Nor the transit agency does this.
[11:51.300 --> 11:56.820]  And that depreciates the structural integrity of the buses.
[11:57.280 --> 11:57.840]  Really?
[11:57.980 --> 11:58.480]  I didn't know that.
[11:58.600 --> 11:59.880]  That's just one example.
[12:00.140 --> 12:00.380]  Wow.
[12:00.900 --> 12:06.740]  So from 2000 to, like, 2017, the MTA ordered tech trains.
[12:07.060 --> 12:10.400]  They ordered R-142s starting from, like, 2000.
[12:10.600 --> 12:14.100]  Then it was the R-160s for, like, the BMT-90 divisions.
[12:14.700 --> 12:19.000]  And the latest ones they ordered was the R-179s, which are on the J-train.
[12:19.500 --> 12:20.740]  You know your trains.
[12:20.880 --> 12:21.440]  You know your trains.
[12:21.880 --> 12:22.920]  Did you work for them?
[12:23.120 --> 12:24.500]  Do you know all about this?
[12:24.580 --> 12:29.060]  No, I'm like... Well, I'm like one of these guys that are, like, real fans.
[12:29.160 --> 12:29.600]  Oh, okay.
[12:29.960 --> 12:31.920]  And it's like a small community of us.
[12:32.000 --> 12:33.140]  We have, like, videos on YouTube.
[12:33.460 --> 12:35.140]  Oh, we see these videos all the time.
[12:35.360 --> 12:38.860]  In fact, we have them up sometimes where basically just trains are passing all night long.
[12:39.200 --> 12:39.940]  And they're great.
[12:40.200 --> 12:40.440]  Exactly.
[12:40.560 --> 12:43.300]  And we see some people who just go around filming things in the system.
[12:43.460 --> 12:45.920]  There's one where people go to abandoned stations.
[12:45.920 --> 12:46.820]  It's really pretty awesome.
[12:48.400 --> 12:48.840]  Yes.
[12:49.020 --> 12:49.880]  Yes, that is true.
[12:50.680 --> 12:55.960]  So they ordered, like, over 1,000 tech trains from, like, 2000.
[12:56.780 --> 13:01.140]  Started with the R-142s, and the latest order was the R-179s for the J-train.
[13:01.840 --> 13:09.160]  And they're actually supposed to get the R-211s, which will replace the R-68 trains on the A-train.
[13:10.000 --> 13:11.180]  Those are from the 70s.
[13:11.460 --> 13:11.620]  Right.
[13:11.720 --> 13:23.320]  Now, all these tech trains they ordered from, like, 2000, they couldn't have Kawasaki or Bombardia already have cameras installed while they were building the trains.
[13:23.340 --> 13:25.240]  This way, the intake could just program the cameras.
[13:26.140 --> 13:28.780]  And this way, people would be... I'm sorry, I'm outside now.
[13:28.780 --> 13:31.240]  So people would be indoctrinated not to do anything.
[13:31.760 --> 13:33.740]  If they had started this thing 20 years ago.
[13:34.240 --> 13:35.720]  Now, they have cameras on all their buses.
[13:36.060 --> 13:36.320]  Yes.
[13:36.480 --> 13:38.620]  They have a fleet of almost 6,000 buses.
[13:38.920 --> 13:40.480]  We have the biggest network in the nation.
[13:42.440 --> 13:42.880]  Wow.
[13:43.100 --> 13:46.980]  But I think the NTA, they just make these dumb decisions, man.
[13:47.560 --> 13:56.440]  You know, they do something good, and then they turn around and they just make decisions that defeats the purpose.
[13:57.380 --> 14:10.380]  You know, one good thing that I think almost everybody agrees on, in fact, I think there was a New York Times article about this, a really good article, about the MetroCard machines and how people are going to be sorry to see those go because they were just so solid and they worked.
[14:10.600 --> 14:11.860]  And it's one of those rare...
[14:11.860 --> 14:12.060]  They shouldn't get rid of them.
[14:12.300 --> 14:12.540]  Sorry?
[14:13.660 --> 14:14.580]  They shouldn't get rid of that.
[14:14.620 --> 14:18.140]  That's a dumb decision because the MetroCard itself, it came out in 97.
[14:18.420 --> 14:19.080]  I was in college.
[14:19.080 --> 14:20.200]  I remember when it first came out.
[14:20.840 --> 14:24.680]  Before they actually had, believe it or not, people would know they had the MetroCard, the white and blue cards.
[14:25.140 --> 14:25.540]  Yes.
[14:25.620 --> 14:26.620]  They came out in 94.
[14:26.840 --> 14:35.820]  That was just for, like, people that really, like, corporate people that had, like, worked in Manhattan.
[14:36.880 --> 14:41.820]  And you could, they just needed that because of their community from Jersey.
[14:42.060 --> 14:49.400]  You should check out our first Hope video, one of our first Hope videos in 1994, which is about hacking the MetroCard.
[14:49.620 --> 14:52.700]  And you can see how much things have changed over the decades.
[14:52.700 --> 14:52.940]  Yes.
[14:53.260 --> 14:54.560]  It's really incredible.
[14:55.720 --> 15:01.480]  I think it's dumb because that'd be a waste of money because they spent how many millions putting kiosks in every station?
[15:01.640 --> 15:01.820]  Mm-hmm.
[15:02.200 --> 15:06.960]  From the stations, like, in the worst neighborhoods in East New York to, like, Wall Street.
[15:07.180 --> 15:11.740]  Every station, I think it's four, like, about 500 stations, they have kiosks now.
[15:11.940 --> 15:12.100]  Right.
[15:12.580 --> 15:17.800]  You got to keep that because there's still, that's still, it's still an innovative apparatus.
[15:18.380 --> 15:23.260]  The MTAs shouldn't get rid of what they should do, keep that, and have Omni.
[15:23.700 --> 15:24.100]  Yeah.
[15:24.100 --> 15:25.340]  The token thing was wonderful.
[15:25.740 --> 15:27.900]  And I think what they should do, they should ban coins.
[15:28.080 --> 15:32.340]  No, just worry, they should just worry about banning coins because of the coin shortage.
[15:33.540 --> 15:41.280]  Because they're doing, they're going to do all this stuff and then they're going to waste money when they could have people from the community making suggestions.
[15:41.900 --> 15:42.320]  Yeah.
[15:42.420 --> 15:43.380]  You know, they don't...
[15:43.380 --> 15:44.360]  That's a good suggestion.
[15:44.600 --> 15:54.880]  And, you know, those machines, I didn't realize they were so artistically put together by color and just like, you know, a natural flow of progression as you're buying something or updating something.
[15:54.880 --> 15:57.140]  It really, you know, you see that so rarely.
[15:57.340 --> 16:00.860]  And, unfortunately, the decision's already been made to get rid of them and to replace them with something else.
[16:00.940 --> 16:05.620]  And I just hope it's not something terrible that we're used to, that the MTA comes up with.
[16:06.380 --> 16:06.700]  Yeah.
[16:06.700 --> 16:08.020]  I mean, I've used Omni on the bus.
[16:08.180 --> 16:13.340]  I mean, it's very convenient because I have a SoFi card and I have a Credit Karma card.
[16:13.460 --> 16:26.040]  Like a lot of these bank cards now, they have the magnetic strip, which they're retaining that and they have the chip and they have that Wi-Fi symbol, the tap-and-go symbol.
[16:26.560 --> 16:26.920]  Yes.
[16:27.100 --> 16:27.700]  So it's very...
[16:27.700 --> 16:29.400]  I've used Omni several times.
[16:29.520 --> 16:30.340]  It's very convenient.
[16:31.080 --> 16:35.480]  And also, it's a pretty good deal, too, if you use it a certain amount of times.
[16:35.540 --> 16:39.940]  I don't know what the exact number is, but if you use it a certain amount of times, you don't have to pay any more for that week.
[16:40.820 --> 16:41.020]  Yeah.
[16:41.180 --> 16:41.780]  Yeah, exactly.
[16:41.960 --> 16:42.740]  Just like EasyPass.
[16:43.260 --> 16:43.620]  Yes.
[16:43.940 --> 16:45.000]  Wait, EasyPass?
[16:45.440 --> 16:47.020]  I don't think there's a maximum on EasyPass.
[16:47.020 --> 16:49.260]  I think you can spend a lot of money on that.
[16:51.840 --> 16:54.060]  Yeah, so that's all I had to say.
[16:54.160 --> 17:01.180]  With the cameras and the MTA, they messed up big time, man, because they could have been doing this 20 years ago when they first got the R142.
[17:01.780 --> 17:04.120]  Well, you know, they have to listen to people like us, for one thing.
[17:04.200 --> 17:04.380]  Okay.
[17:04.560 --> 17:06.960]  You know, when they first introduced those...
[17:06.960 --> 17:09.620]  I don't know the model numbers, but you probably do.
[17:10.320 --> 17:11.040]  The first...
[17:11.040 --> 17:15.440]  We called them the Evil 6 trains, because they had the red circle and the 6 in the middle.
[17:15.900 --> 17:16.340]  Yeah.
[17:16.340 --> 17:17.640]  But they had...
[17:17.640 --> 17:18.000]  Yeah.
[17:18.000 --> 17:21.180]  The stops had this lit up arrow.
[17:21.400 --> 17:24.460]  And oftentimes, it would tell you which way the stations were going.
[17:24.580 --> 17:28.160]  But many times, that arrow was pointing the opposite way that the train was moving.
[17:28.260 --> 17:30.160]  And it was very confusing to people from out of town.
[17:30.700 --> 17:36.100]  They replaced that with something better, you know, that has all the stations up by the ceiling.
[17:36.100 --> 17:43.660]  And they basically are able to change the next station or, say, the next five stations or whatever.
[17:43.820 --> 17:44.880]  It's a better system.
[17:44.880 --> 17:47.120]  But I've seen much better in other countries as well.
[17:47.880 --> 17:49.340]  Yeah, man, I've seen that.
[17:49.760 --> 17:50.920]  I'm only 43.
[17:51.440 --> 17:54.160]  Actually, I'll be 45 in December.
[17:54.760 --> 17:55.700]  I've seen that.
[17:55.700 --> 17:56.860]  I mean, I remember...
[17:56.860 --> 17:59.500]  I've seen that whole operation transition.
[17:59.800 --> 18:01.120]  Like, you know, before they had...
[18:01.700 --> 18:02.660]  We had tokens.
[18:04.640 --> 18:05.640]  We didn't have...
[18:05.640 --> 18:07.040]  Everything was analog, man.
[18:07.140 --> 18:08.060]  Now they have...
[18:08.060 --> 18:08.220]  Yeah.
[18:08.800 --> 18:11.400]  You know, going to every station, you have that automated announcement thing.
[18:11.480 --> 18:15.320]  You have the LED signs in the stations telling...
[18:15.320 --> 18:16.860]  You know, they have...
[18:16.860 --> 18:18.140]  All the stations have real-time now.
[18:18.860 --> 18:20.180]  But my other topic...
[18:20.180 --> 18:20.560]  I'm gonna have...
[18:20.560 --> 18:21.780]  I need some help, guys.
[18:21.900 --> 18:26.180]  I have this wonderful Windows Nokia 1520 phone.
[18:26.660 --> 18:27.100]  Okay.
[18:27.820 --> 18:32.680]  I understand that Windows said something about they won't provide updates for Windows phones.
[18:35.720 --> 18:38.440]  I think Windows 10 was like the last go-around.
[18:38.640 --> 18:43.200]  I was able to update my Nokia 1520 last summer.
[18:43.200 --> 18:43.760]  Mm-hmm.
[18:44.440 --> 18:48.120]  But I noticed that, like, some websites, they don't load up all the way.
[18:48.320 --> 18:49.460]  It's missing a lot of graphics.
[18:50.100 --> 18:50.820]  So I tried.
[18:50.820 --> 18:59.400]  I went to a Wi-Fi area, and I went to Upgrade Advisor, and they said that there's no updates available at this time.
[19:01.140 --> 19:02.120]  And so I guess...
[19:02.120 --> 19:03.060]  I guess...
[19:03.060 --> 19:04.480]  Damn, I'm hoping that...
[19:04.480 --> 19:06.320]  I was hoping I could still update...
[19:06.320 --> 19:07.380]  Get updates for that phone.
[19:08.580 --> 19:08.980]  Yeah.
[19:08.980 --> 19:11.580]  But I think Microsoft said...
[19:11.580 --> 19:12.880]  I think Microsoft, they're really...
[19:13.460 --> 19:16.220]  They're serious about, you know, they're not doing updates for those phones.
[19:16.360 --> 19:17.840]  Because I love my Nokia 1520, man.
[19:18.460 --> 19:18.700]  Yeah.
[19:18.840 --> 19:26.840]  I mean, look at some of the support forums for the model specifically, but also that mobile OS within the Microsoft knowledge base.
[19:26.840 --> 19:30.760]  So a lot of times there are patches and things that you can manually otherwise...
[19:30.760 --> 19:40.880]  I don't know exactly how the operating system works, but maybe you can transfer some things over that aren't necessarily a part of whatever update suite is in the phone itself.
[19:41.340 --> 19:42.700]  I know that's really frustrating.
[19:42.860 --> 19:46.880]  And congrats for having an operating system such as that.
[19:47.040 --> 19:48.440]  This day and age when...
[19:48.440 --> 19:53.720]  I mean, a lot of the alternatives from the big two are few and far between.
[19:53.720 --> 20:00.660]  I know there are projects and there are free phone OSs and stuff, but absolutely back up what you have too.
[20:00.920 --> 20:03.580]  Make sure you copy and clone that.
[20:03.740 --> 20:06.440]  I've had BlackBerrys and other devices.
[20:06.680 --> 20:10.040]  One thing I'm trying to figure out now is how to copy contacts out of a SIM.
[20:10.820 --> 20:21.440]  So, ideas, ways people do some of the stuff to at least make a clone of it and have something that is not on the device that you can keep.
[20:22.940 --> 20:25.460]  And, you know, don't ask Border Patrol to do it.
[20:25.580 --> 20:26.200]  Do it yourself.
[20:27.900 --> 20:28.880]  Yeah, I guess that's...
[20:28.880 --> 20:30.400]  It's really easy, man.
[20:30.520 --> 20:35.320]  You know, you just have to have a Wi-Fi connection, which doesn't make any sense because it's...
[20:35.320 --> 20:37.660]  I don't know why you can't use your own mobile data to do updates.
[20:37.660 --> 20:38.820]  I never understood that.
[20:40.840 --> 20:42.220]  Yeah, that's peculiar.
[20:42.620 --> 20:43.580]  That's peculiar.
[20:43.760 --> 21:00.360]  I don't know if that's a setting in the phone OS or somehow the way they've set that particular operating system to work on the network through some of the controls and how the SIM and the baseband operate on the actual chip itself.
[21:00.360 --> 21:03.160]  But it's worthy to keep around.
[21:03.160 --> 21:08.860]  And especially if your data is there, make sure you're protecting yourself and getting at least a copy.
[21:09.080 --> 21:10.300]  I think Rob has something to add.
[21:10.380 --> 21:10.660]  Go ahead, Rob.
[21:11.320 --> 21:11.960]  Yeah.
[21:12.340 --> 21:12.460]  Yeah.
[21:12.480 --> 21:21.540]  As far as Windows phones as a platform go, Microsoft got out of the Windows phone operating system business in 2019.
[21:21.880 --> 21:26.940]  The last version of the Windows mobile operating system reached its end of life and end of support.
[21:26.940 --> 21:30.820]  So basically, they aren't going to have anything for you.
[21:31.820 --> 21:44.880]  And their official recommendation on the Microsoft dot com frequently asked questions page about the the end of life of Windows 10 mobile is their official recommendation is, well, try Android or iOS or other things.
[21:44.880 --> 21:48.340]  So they basically are not going to be of help.
[21:48.500 --> 22:00.700]  So any any further use that you get of that you get out of your device on Windows is not really going to be considered safe as far as security patches as far as the safety of your of your data.
[22:02.000 --> 22:14.680]  And any and so any any real future that your device has is going to have to be from some kind of alternative operating system if one exists that you would have to install yourself like like I was talking about.
[22:14.680 --> 22:19.480]  You know how Linux rose up, you know, and and and basically enthralled so many people.
[22:19.620 --> 22:24.200]  We need something like that in the phone spectrum where we're basically we control it.
[22:24.480 --> 22:25.720]  You know, we design it.
[22:25.840 --> 22:26.580]  We update it.
[22:26.840 --> 22:30.900]  There are things like that in the Android sphere because Android is based on Linux.
[22:31.080 --> 22:38.940]  And so there are several free community supported community built alternatives to the stock Android operating system.
[22:39.140 --> 22:41.960]  And a lot of older phones still run well with those.
[22:41.960 --> 22:43.360]  A lot of current phones.
[22:43.820 --> 22:48.580]  You know, maybe it takes some time to for people to get them running, but they do exist and they are out there.
[22:48.760 --> 22:50.100]  Can you delete the Facebook app?
[22:50.260 --> 22:51.040]  Can you delete it?
[22:51.140 --> 22:52.140]  Not just disable it.
[22:52.760 --> 22:53.600]  That's the test.
[22:54.920 --> 23:02.940]  Generally, you can because the community operating systems are very good at giving you total control of your device and letting you decide what's on there and what's not.
[23:02.940 --> 23:28.040]  Yeah, I really want to see I'm eager to see more collaborations people pulling a lot of these sort of separated and specious little projects that are way, you know, way interesting doing awesome stuff with different hardware and really pulling it together into something that is sort of a sturdy competition to the dominant players right now.
[23:28.180 --> 23:49.200]  And I think the biggest challenge is what is the interest of all of those groups collaborating or coordinating or what is the interest of someone who would pick the best of those projects and the most ideal configurations and development styles for the need you're trying to replace.
[23:49.200 --> 23:58.880]  And I think that's a really hard question because there's a lot of different attitudes towards it, even though we have more control than ever over what's running on your phone.
[23:59.180 --> 24:00.640]  Hey, caller, two final questions.
[24:01.360 --> 24:08.440]  I know they were planning on introducing a new subway car where you could see from one side to the other, you know, from the front to the back.
[24:10.420 --> 24:11.500]  That's the R211.
[24:11.580 --> 24:12.940]  They're supposed to replace the A trains.
[24:13.100 --> 24:13.840]  Okay, that's the one.
[24:14.160 --> 24:15.000]  Yeah, yeah.
[24:15.240 --> 24:16.260]  And where are those?
[24:16.260 --> 24:18.520]  Are they being introduced anytime soon?
[24:19.300 --> 24:23.500]  I think they're testing one now because they're going to be made by Kawasaki.
[24:24.040 --> 24:27.320]  And, you know, they have a plant right here in Yonkers.
[24:27.700 --> 24:28.280]  Oh, really?
[24:28.280 --> 24:28.960]  Westchester County.
[24:29.120 --> 24:29.900]  Wow, that's close.
[24:30.360 --> 24:31.980]  Yeah, final assembly plant.
[24:32.220 --> 24:33.300]  They come from Japan.
[24:33.460 --> 24:33.820]  Uh-huh.
[24:34.080 --> 24:42.680]  And the final assembly location is on Yonkers over there by the train station by Larkin Plaza.
[24:43.040 --> 24:43.300]  Uh-huh.
[24:43.800 --> 24:45.720]  Okay, can we drop by for a visit, you know?
[24:47.720 --> 24:48.980]  Well, I don't work there, you know.
[24:49.340 --> 24:54.360]  But you can, I mean, I guess you're welcome to view it from the Hudson Line.
[24:54.560 --> 25:03.780]  You know, we discovered when traveling across the country last year that there's a lot of cities, I think Oklahoma City is one of them, that have trams like they do overseas, you know, street cars.
[25:03.780 --> 25:04.060]  Yeah.
[25:04.140 --> 25:07.180]  And they're made, I think, in Pennsylvania, which is pretty awesome.
[25:07.300 --> 25:08.380]  I want to visit that place as well.
[25:09.420 --> 25:10.940]  One final question for you.
[25:11.480 --> 25:13.100]  You mentioned YouTube.
[25:13.100 --> 25:16.040]  Do you have any videos you'd like to point us to, or channels?
[25:18.200 --> 25:19.620]  Yeah, I have a channel.
[25:20.200 --> 25:23.120]  My YouTube channel is on Milestone underscore Achiever.
[25:24.120 --> 25:24.560]  Okay.
[25:26.340 --> 25:28.180]  And it's just like a recreational thing.
[25:28.260 --> 25:28.880]  I'm not doing nothing.
[25:29.060 --> 25:34.060]  I don't have a, like a channel like Casey Neistat or something like that, someone like that, you know?
[25:34.520 --> 25:35.000]  Uh-huh.
[25:35.240 --> 25:44.300]  You know, I just, I think it's just bus fanning, rail fanning, and just into my electric scooters.
[25:44.740 --> 25:45.140]  Cool.
[25:45.720 --> 25:48.240]  Self-balanced scooters, and I'm doing some modifications with those.
[25:48.460 --> 25:49.020]  Wear your helmet.
[25:49.020 --> 25:49.980]  Yeah, wear your helmet.
[25:50.200 --> 25:55.100]  And for those who might not be familiar with the whole concept of rail fanning, can you describe it briefly?
[25:57.220 --> 26:01.500]  Well, rail fanning does not, people think it pertains to people that work for transit.
[26:01.500 --> 26:02.420]  That is not true.
[26:03.380 --> 26:10.400]  You got tons of people that, that they just had like a, they just fell in love with trains and buses from childhood.
[26:12.080 --> 26:24.580]  And, um, with the advent of YouTube now, since, you know, the way we can, um, put stuff out there has become so, um, technology advanced.
[26:25.700 --> 26:28.420]  You know, anyone could just do a YouTube and the whole world could see it.
[26:29.140 --> 26:29.340]  Right.
[26:31.100 --> 26:31.940]  Don't we know it?
[26:32.040 --> 26:32.140]  Yeah.
[26:32.340 --> 26:33.140]  It's incredible.
[26:34.000 --> 26:34.260]  Yeah.
[26:34.520 --> 26:38.460]  And some of the live feeds are really entertaining as well, because you never know what's, what's going to happen.
[26:38.460 --> 26:42.580]  Um, there, there are, they're all over the country, all over the world, in fact.
[26:42.820 --> 26:48.940]  And there's so many different and new unique things that you almost, you wonder like, oh, this has been around forever.
[26:49.140 --> 26:57.220]  You can't imagine a time when you didn't have these kinds of interesting, um, audiovisual presentations right at your fingertips.
[26:57.400 --> 27:03.340]  The, the, anything you can think of, uh, to search for it, the implications are, I think, still unfolding.
[27:03.720 --> 27:03.880]  Yep.
[27:04.700 --> 27:05.020]  Yeah.
[27:05.020 --> 27:05.680]  Well, thanks for calling.
[27:05.960 --> 27:08.460]  I would say check out, yeah, I would say check out Trevor, Trevor Logan.
[27:08.680 --> 27:08.840]  Yeah.
[27:08.940 --> 27:14.400]  He has, he's really, he knows a lot about transit and he has like a big website, man.
[27:15.400 --> 27:15.720]  Okay.
[27:15.840 --> 27:16.960]  Well, we're going to check into all these channels.
[27:17.520 --> 27:17.900]  All right.
[27:17.920 --> 27:18.460]  Thanks for the info.
[27:18.640 --> 27:21.820]  Thanks for calling and for all the information and, uh, keep doing what you're doing.
[27:22.060 --> 27:22.180]  Yeah.
[27:22.240 --> 27:22.520]  Good luck.
[27:24.220 --> 27:24.760]  All right.
[27:24.860 --> 27:28.620]  Now front number 8 0 2 3 2 1 4 2 2 5 8 0 2 3 2 1.
[27:28.720 --> 27:28.900]  Heck.
[27:29.520 --> 27:30.780]  It was a entertaining call.
[27:31.260 --> 27:31.860]  Informative too.
[27:32.940 --> 27:34.140]  Alex looks like you have something to say.
[27:35.480 --> 27:37.440]  I just echo the same sentiment.
[27:37.860 --> 27:41.940]  I think, uh, yeah, it's always nice to get calls from new callers as well.
[27:42.500 --> 27:43.280]  Well, you don't know.
[27:43.380 --> 27:44.080]  He never called before.
[27:45.340 --> 27:48.800]  I checked my voice database and, uh, there were no matches.
[27:48.800 --> 27:51.820]  Nothing that rose above, uh, 85% certainty.
[27:52.960 --> 27:55.300]  So, um, I don't think he's called before.
[27:55.840 --> 27:56.100]  Mm-hmm.
[27:57.840 --> 27:58.360]  All right.
[27:58.500 --> 28:02.100]  Again, our front number 8 0 2 3 2 1 4 2 2 5 8 0 2 3 2 1 hack.
[28:02.700 --> 28:04.260]  Um, is there anything Kyle?
[28:05.140 --> 28:05.520]  Yes.
[28:05.620 --> 28:05.680]  No.
[28:06.160 --> 28:06.500]  Yes.
[28:06.640 --> 28:06.860]  Okay.
[28:07.200 --> 28:07.720]  And good evening.
[28:07.860 --> 28:08.140]  You're on.
[28:09.120 --> 28:10.840]  He said there was something there.
[28:11.060 --> 28:11.960]  Did they hang up?
[28:13.040 --> 28:14.260]  Or did you make a loud click?
[28:14.820 --> 28:15.640]  I just answered.
[28:16.180 --> 28:16.460]  Okay.
[28:17.040 --> 28:18.440]  8 0 2 3 2 1 4 2 2 5.
[28:18.440 --> 28:19.520]  I think we have a caller online.
[28:19.800 --> 28:20.560]  Is there somebody there?
[28:21.660 --> 28:22.060]  Yes.
[28:22.400 --> 28:23.060]  Hey, how you doing?
[28:24.740 --> 28:25.140]  Surviving.
[28:25.440 --> 28:26.100]  And you?
[28:26.380 --> 28:27.300]  Uh, listen.
[28:27.300 --> 28:28.500]  I know you're surviving.
[28:28.700 --> 28:28.940]  You're...
[28:28.940 --> 28:29.460]  We've survived.
[28:29.820 --> 28:30.940]  So yeah, I guess we're still surviving.
[28:32.280 --> 28:32.680]  Good.
[28:33.680 --> 28:34.600]  What's, what's on your mind?
[28:34.680 --> 28:35.160]  Good to hear.
[28:36.340 --> 28:45.340]  I was wondering when, oh, when, oh, when, oh, when, oh, when are you going to remember to thank me by my full name on the air on off the hook?
[28:45.400 --> 28:45.680]  Okay.
[28:45.680 --> 28:46.480]  We did this already.
[28:46.760 --> 28:52.180]  Well, we don't, we don't thank full names on the air, and we're not going to, because that's just, we've always done that.
[28:52.300 --> 28:55.240]  That's, that's, uh, we, we do thank you for your support.
[28:55.380 --> 28:56.280]  We did thank you on the air.
[28:56.980 --> 28:58.600]  We, we have to move on to other things.
[28:58.600 --> 29:07.280]  But, but that is the custom when the person requested you, the way you did it, it might as well have been anonymous.
[29:08.420 --> 29:13.780]  Caller, caller, what if we say thank you right now, and then you say your full name?
[29:16.060 --> 29:18.000]  I'd like it to be on the air, please.
[29:18.000 --> 29:18.260]  Okay.
[29:18.920 --> 29:27.480]  We, we, we, we really, really want to move on from this conversation because, look, if you're donating just to get thanked, that's the wrong reason to donate.
[29:27.780 --> 29:28.080]  All right?
[29:28.340 --> 29:28.460]  Seriously.
[29:28.460 --> 29:41.320]  No, I was not donating just to be thanked, but I donated for your program to support it because it was attacked in front of the FCC, and I would like to be thanked.
[29:41.740 --> 29:45.280]  And that is the option that everyone is offered.
[29:45.280 --> 29:46.120]  You were thanked.
[29:46.200 --> 29:46.640]  Everybody.
[29:47.020 --> 29:47.760]  You were thanked.
[29:47.760 --> 29:48.540]  We thank you.
[29:49.280 --> 29:50.560]  No, you did not.
[29:50.560 --> 29:52.960]  We do not give out people's, we do not give out people's full information.
[29:53.140 --> 29:54.280]  We will not do that.
[29:54.280 --> 29:57.260]  Even if you ask us to do that, you're welcome to call in and say your full name.
[29:57.260 --> 30:00.240]  You can do that, but it probably won't be a very entertaining call.
[30:00.480 --> 30:03.020]  And that's, that's, that's just our policy.
[30:03.020 --> 30:05.240]  We have never done anything other than that.
[30:06.020 --> 30:06.500]  Okay?
[30:06.820 --> 30:07.520]  Is that understood?
[30:09.660 --> 30:10.140]  No.
[30:10.540 --> 30:11.580]  Okay, I'm sorry then.
[30:11.580 --> 30:13.640]  You're making up a policy that does not apply.
[30:13.640 --> 30:14.640]  We're not making up a policy.
[30:14.800 --> 30:16.160]  This has always been the way we've done it.
[30:16.220 --> 30:18.280]  Go listen to all the years of programs.
[30:18.280 --> 30:19.000]  You're one program.
[30:19.000 --> 30:20.540]  You're making up a policy.
[30:20.780 --> 30:22.240]  It doesn't apply to all the rest.
[30:22.360 --> 30:25.060]  Then call the rest, but our policy is our policy.
[30:27.220 --> 30:28.220]  Seriously, that's that.
[30:28.280 --> 30:29.700]  We do it for a reason because we're aware.
[30:29.980 --> 30:34.020]  We, you don't want to give out all your information to people over the radio.
[30:35.120 --> 30:36.940]  It's, it's not something that we're...
[30:36.940 --> 30:37.780]  I'm willing to give out all my information.
[30:37.860 --> 30:39.240]  I am an open book.
[30:39.320 --> 30:40.860]  And like I said, you can do that.
[30:41.120 --> 30:42.920]  But we're not going to do that ourselves.
[30:44.140 --> 30:45.080]  That's just our policy.
[30:45.580 --> 30:46.860]  This shouldn't be such a big deal.
[30:47.040 --> 30:48.580]  It really shouldn't be such a big deal.
[30:50.040 --> 30:50.400]  But...
[30:50.400 --> 30:52.320]  It is ungracious of you.
[30:52.420 --> 30:52.720]  Okay.
[30:52.860 --> 30:54.100]  Well, I don't think it is.
[30:54.100 --> 30:54.780]  And it's...
[30:54.780 --> 30:55.820]  We're thanking you.
[30:55.920 --> 30:57.740]  We're just not thanking you the way you want us to thank you.
[30:57.820 --> 30:58.360]  But I'm sorry.
[30:58.740 --> 30:59.100]  That's...
[30:59.100 --> 31:00.680]  The way everybody else gets to be thanked.
[31:01.060 --> 31:02.600]  We are wasting time here.
[31:02.940 --> 31:03.300]  Let's...
[31:03.680 --> 31:04.860]  Do you have anything else to say?
[31:09.940 --> 31:12.320]  Whatever it was, I've forgotten it by now.
[31:13.040 --> 31:13.500]  All right.
[31:13.580 --> 31:14.080]  I'm afraid.
[31:15.000 --> 31:15.360]  We'll...
[31:15.360 --> 31:16.360]  We'll pick it up in the future.
[31:16.540 --> 31:16.760]  Thanks.
[31:16.940 --> 31:17.700]  Thanks for your call.
[31:18.380 --> 31:19.340]  Let's move on.
[31:20.260 --> 31:21.760]  802-321-4225.
[31:22.060 --> 31:22.520]  Good God.
[31:24.560 --> 31:25.280]  I mean...
[31:26.400 --> 31:27.100]  Thanks for...
[31:27.100 --> 31:28.560]  Thanks for your support back there, guys.
[31:29.000 --> 31:30.860]  Anything you want to add now that the caller's gone?
[31:31.920 --> 31:32.720]  Oh, we...
[31:32.720 --> 31:34.120]  I don't think we wanted to interrupt.
[31:35.360 --> 31:35.720]  But...
[31:35.720 --> 31:37.360]  That was such a good rapport you guys had going.
[31:37.520 --> 31:37.960]  I didn't want to get in the way of that.
[31:37.960 --> 31:38.080]  Oh, thank you.
[31:38.180 --> 31:38.740]  Thank you for that.
[31:38.880 --> 31:39.980]  Just pile all on me.
[31:40.040 --> 31:41.680]  This is always what we've done.
[31:41.820 --> 31:42.920]  We've never done anything different.
[31:43.540 --> 31:45.160]  Well, you were doing so well.
[31:45.400 --> 31:46.160]  You did.
[31:46.280 --> 31:46.980]  You did very well.
[31:47.180 --> 31:47.580]  I mean...
[31:47.580 --> 31:58.440]  We are grateful to that caller who is called Eleanor and everyone else who helps WBAI stick around because, like, we couldn't do it without them.
[31:58.640 --> 32:05.840]  But, yes, like you said, if the reason you're donating is to get a loud thank you with your full name on the air, that's not going to happen.
[32:05.840 --> 32:06.640]  We don't do that.
[32:06.640 --> 32:08.920]  But we are thankful.
[32:08.920 --> 32:09.760]  We are grateful.
[32:09.960 --> 32:13.260]  We are feeling that gratitude in our radio producer hearts.
[32:13.400 --> 32:13.500]  Yeah.
[32:13.540 --> 32:18.980]  People are welcome to come on the air, do a show, or call in and bark out their entire name if they want.
[32:18.980 --> 32:21.040]  Like I said, it won't be that entertaining if you do.
[32:21.840 --> 32:27.800]  But we are not going to engage in that ourselves because, you know, it's a bad precedent.
[32:28.100 --> 32:29.440]  It's a bad precedent to set.
[32:30.120 --> 32:34.800]  Then all of a sudden we're saying someone else's name, and then it turns out that wasn't the person's name.
[32:34.960 --> 32:38.100]  And someone else is giving us that name and get into all kinds of battles.
[32:38.540 --> 32:41.600]  We've been doing this for decades on multiple radio stations.
[32:41.780 --> 32:45.220]  It's always been the policy of the people who broadcast you.
[32:45.320 --> 32:45.980]  That's how we do it.
[32:46.160 --> 32:49.560]  And if you don't like that, there's another show that probably will do it differently.
[32:49.560 --> 32:50.760]  And you can ask them.
[32:50.960 --> 32:51.780]  It's as simple as that.
[32:51.980 --> 32:52.100]  Okay.
[32:52.160 --> 32:52.620]  We have another phone call.
[32:53.000 --> 32:53.480]  Good evening.
[32:53.880 --> 32:54.200]  Sorry.
[32:54.480 --> 32:54.980]  Sorry, Rob.
[32:55.080 --> 32:55.300]  Good evening.
[32:55.400 --> 32:55.720]  You're on the air.
[32:55.800 --> 32:55.940]  Okay.
[32:59.500 --> 33:02.580]  While that person's figuring out how to use the phone, go ahead, Rob.
[33:02.640 --> 33:03.220]  What are you going to say?
[33:03.220 --> 33:12.680]  I mean, we just happen to be of a community that has a very sort of particular, unique relationship with names, especially full names.
[33:12.840 --> 33:13.320]  Exactly.
[33:13.320 --> 33:18.180]  And so, like, we don't want to accidentally disrespect that by doing something different.
[33:18.180 --> 33:21.040]  What if someone insisted we say their social security number on the air?
[33:21.320 --> 33:21.740]  You know?
[33:22.540 --> 33:25.240]  Look, if you want to do that, go ahead and do it.
[33:25.420 --> 33:27.120]  But we're not going to do it.
[33:27.240 --> 33:28.720]  It's very personal information.
[33:28.940 --> 33:30.240]  What if you want your address given out?
[33:30.620 --> 33:33.080]  Again, not something we're comfortable giving out.
[33:33.220 --> 33:38.740]  But maybe you want to do that because you're having a bake sale or something and you want people to come over.
[33:39.080 --> 33:39.480]  Fine.
[33:39.680 --> 33:40.640]  You have that power.
[33:40.900 --> 33:42.600]  But please don't ask us to do it.
[33:42.940 --> 33:43.340]  Okay.
[33:43.380 --> 33:44.320]  I think we have another phone call.
[33:44.440 --> 33:44.760]  Good evening.
[33:44.920 --> 33:46.080]  You're on off the hook.
[33:46.340 --> 33:46.620]  Overtime.
[33:47.280 --> 33:48.040]  Can you hear me fine?
[33:48.200 --> 33:48.820]  We hear you now.
[33:49.120 --> 33:49.500]  Go ahead.
[33:50.080 --> 33:50.420]  Okay.
[33:51.220 --> 33:51.960]  How you guys doing?
[33:52.120 --> 33:55.340]  It's Phillip again from Virginia via Missouri via Virginia.
[33:55.620 --> 33:56.860]  How you doing down there?
[33:57.620 --> 33:58.380]  I'm all right.
[33:58.380 --> 33:58.420]  Great.
[33:59.160 --> 34:07.540]  I took your advice and I called, I wrote a letter to the paper and they came and cleaned up all the brushes.
[34:07.820 --> 34:08.220]  Oh my God.
[34:08.220 --> 34:08.840]  Look at that.
[34:08.920 --> 34:09.440]  Look at you.
[34:09.580 --> 34:10.560]  You actually got that done.
[34:10.760 --> 34:11.380]  That's incredible.
[34:12.100 --> 34:12.540]  Congratulations.
[34:12.540 --> 34:12.720]  Congratulations.
[34:13.060 --> 34:13.200]  Yeah.
[34:14.160 --> 34:18.260]  Well, I'm going to write them another one called, we need stuff to do around here.
[34:18.480 --> 34:21.440]  Maybe have like a pit parade or Halloween parade.
[34:22.080 --> 34:22.260]  Okay.
[34:22.380 --> 34:24.340]  You know, like a zombie run or something like that.
[34:24.420 --> 34:25.240]  Just something to do.
[34:26.300 --> 34:27.980]  Well, this is my suggestion.
[34:28.260 --> 34:35.080]  Make sure you thank the people that got it done and space your letters out so you're not writing every day or every week.
[34:35.660 --> 34:42.120]  You know, you don't want to be too insistent, but it sounds like you hit the right people and that's really good.
[34:42.240 --> 34:44.960]  So you're not being whacked in the face by branches anymore.
[34:45.900 --> 34:46.700]  That's true.
[34:48.120 --> 34:57.900]  Also, we were talking about the extortion over the source code for Transcept Auto 6.
[34:58.640 --> 35:03.720]  I mean, there's nothing to gain from that other than people just being jerks.
[35:03.860 --> 35:05.420]  I just don't understand it.
[35:05.620 --> 35:10.880]  I don't understand why they even call it hacking because all they did was what?
[35:10.880 --> 35:20.440]  They just like pounded like a lady for their like two-factor syndication or whatever.
[35:20.920 --> 35:23.360]  Yeah, credentials for logging in.
[35:24.560 --> 35:27.180]  Yeah, there's nothing to gain from that.
[35:27.180 --> 35:28.420]  They weren't getting any knowledge.
[35:28.680 --> 35:30.380]  They weren't exposing any vulnerability.
[35:30.700 --> 35:32.220]  They were just doing it to try to get money.
[35:32.460 --> 35:34.140]  Yeah, Phil, this is their core business.
[35:34.380 --> 35:35.020]  Yeah, it isn't.
[35:35.140 --> 35:36.060]  It's their core business.
[35:36.560 --> 35:39.320]  You know, they have other games and stuff, but it's not like...
[35:39.320 --> 35:45.260]  It's not like they just sort of like opened one little storage closet and took some stuff.
[35:45.460 --> 35:47.880]  Like, they're probably really annoyed by this.
[35:48.200 --> 35:49.020]  Grand Theft Auto.
[35:49.260 --> 35:49.380]  Yeah.
[35:49.920 --> 35:50.580]  Or Rockstar.
[35:50.620 --> 35:51.640]  What else does Rockstar make?
[35:52.080 --> 35:53.660]  It's ironic, but yeah.
[35:53.800 --> 35:54.520]  Does Rockstar make other games?
[35:54.520 --> 35:55.560]  I think they have other series.
[35:55.800 --> 35:57.220]  It is a studio, right?
[35:57.360 --> 35:57.580]  Uh-huh.
[35:57.760 --> 35:59.000]  So I don't know what they're up to.
[35:59.080 --> 35:59.600]  Red Dead Redemption.
[36:00.240 --> 36:00.620]  Uh-huh.
[36:00.820 --> 36:01.360]  Yeah, yeah.
[36:01.840 --> 36:03.580]  Well, see, we're talking about them now.
[36:03.700 --> 36:04.560]  This has got to be good.
[36:05.960 --> 36:06.400]  Publicity.
[36:07.440 --> 36:08.320]  It's unintentional.
[36:08.320 --> 36:13.000]  Well, you know, it's just like the most outrage I've heard on YouTube about it.
[36:13.100 --> 36:14.980]  It's like, oh, they're talking about the spoilers.
[36:15.380 --> 36:17.660]  It's like, who cares about the spoilers?
[36:17.800 --> 36:24.980]  I mean, they're saying Rockstar is more upset over their spoilers than in the leaked footage or whatever, in the leaked source code.
[36:24.980 --> 36:29.900]  Yeah, but, you know, when the first person plays the game, that person can tell everybody.
[36:30.240 --> 36:31.320]  So it's really...
[36:31.320 --> 36:31.860]  Oh, no.
[36:31.860 --> 36:32.680]  It's not as big a deal.
[36:32.940 --> 36:32.980]  What's that?
[36:33.240 --> 36:35.500]  It's like, you know, a book getting out.
[36:35.600 --> 36:36.360]  You're still gonna...
[36:36.360 --> 36:38.000]  You know, if you're a fan, you're gonna buy the book.
[36:39.100 --> 36:39.500]  Yeah.
[36:39.660 --> 36:42.040]  I mean, I just think...
[36:42.040 --> 36:44.380]  I just think that the whole...
[36:44.380 --> 36:46.880]  Oh, the spoilers is what's really the problem is.
[36:46.980 --> 36:47.940]  It's just BS.
[36:50.160 --> 36:55.340]  You know, these people who complain, oh, there's a woman protagonist in it.
[36:55.520 --> 36:56.640]  Or an antagonist.
[36:56.720 --> 36:58.480]  I don't know how you would characterize it.
[36:58.580 --> 36:58.980]  Protagonist.
[36:59.000 --> 36:59.700]  Because they're like a...
[36:59.700 --> 37:00.300]  Yeah.
[37:00.760 --> 37:05.100]  Well, protagonist to the story, but, you know, you're going around robbing people.
[37:05.620 --> 37:06.240]  So wait, what?
[37:06.280 --> 37:08.160]  People are upset when it's a woman doing that?
[37:09.320 --> 37:09.720]  Yeah.
[37:10.000 --> 37:12.720]  Yeah, there's like this outrage over...
[37:12.720 --> 37:16.900]  It's like the black mermaids thing.
[37:16.900 --> 37:20.200]  Yeah, but they're saying women can steal cars?
[37:20.200 --> 37:21.320]  That's really what their belief?
[37:22.380 --> 37:24.740]  I really don't understand it either.
[37:24.980 --> 37:26.140]  It's just...
[37:26.140 --> 37:26.320]  Wow.
[37:26.320 --> 37:29.400]  If they're upset over it, why don't they just learn to code their own game?
[37:29.500 --> 37:38.120]  Because I made a cheap version of Star Fox one time just using GoDot, which uses Perl.
[37:40.120 --> 37:41.040]  No, Python.
[37:41.260 --> 37:42.000]  Python, sorry.
[37:43.920 --> 37:49.220]  And, you know, if I could pull that off, surely they could pull off their own Grand Theft Auto and put whatever they want in it.
[37:49.420 --> 37:51.860]  You could keep from going to Twitter and complaining about it.
[37:53.200 --> 37:56.700]  I just wonder, how many different ways can you steal a car?
[37:56.840 --> 37:58.380]  I mean, how long has it been going on for?
[37:58.680 --> 37:59.020]  You know?
[37:59.280 --> 38:03.340]  It's just they keep stealing cars and the cops never seem to learn from it.
[38:04.300 --> 38:05.000]  Yeah, I know.
[38:05.520 --> 38:11.120]  Well, the Red Dead, I would go around, like, on the dirt roads and everything, away from town.
[38:11.260 --> 38:16.000]  I'd, like, take people off their... shoot them off their horses.
[38:16.820 --> 38:17.100]  Uh-huh.
[38:17.220 --> 38:20.560]  Drag the body out to, like, the lake somewhere and just drop it off.
[38:20.880 --> 38:21.240]  Wow!
[38:21.520 --> 38:22.720]  You definitely explored.
[38:23.200 --> 38:23.240]  It's morbid.
[38:23.460 --> 38:24.960]  I got out of the car and just...
[38:24.960 --> 38:25.780]  It's morbid, I know.
[38:26.000 --> 38:30.220]  I got out of the car and just ran for, like, miles down the street just to see what happened.
[38:30.380 --> 38:30.520]  Yeah.
[38:30.680 --> 38:31.900]  And eventually I got to the end of it.
[38:32.840 --> 38:33.240]  Um...
[38:33.240 --> 38:37.700]  Well, there's, like, a UFO in Grand Theft Auto you can find.
[38:38.120 --> 38:38.460]  Mm-hmm.
[38:39.880 --> 38:40.280]  Um...
[38:40.280 --> 38:41.000]  There's, uh...
[38:41.000 --> 38:42.520]  In Red Dead, there's, like, um...
[38:42.520 --> 38:43.580]  There's, like, a...
[38:44.340 --> 38:45.480]  There's, like, a...
[38:45.480 --> 38:46.960]  There's, like, a ghost and, like, a...
[38:47.440 --> 38:51.040]  Like, a clan that's in there that are actually burning crosses.
[38:51.600 --> 38:53.400]  You know, this is...
[38:53.400 --> 38:53.720]  This is...
[38:53.720 --> 38:54.540]  I mean...
[38:55.000 --> 38:56.360]  Who has time for all this?
[38:56.500 --> 39:00.400]  I barely have time to drive my own car, let alone one in cyberspace.
[39:01.880 --> 39:07.360]  Well, when you're like me, like, no girlfriend, no money, no friends, no nothing.
[39:07.400 --> 39:09.380]  You got all the time in the world to go do this stuff.
[39:09.860 --> 39:10.220]  Wow.
[39:10.660 --> 39:12.560]  So, you know, I don't know.
[39:12.600 --> 39:13.420]  I just think it's...
[39:13.420 --> 39:15.520]  I can understand the source code part.
[39:15.760 --> 39:16.160]  Uh-huh.
[39:16.160 --> 39:20.160]  But I don't understand the whole, oh, no, there is spoilers released.
[39:20.400 --> 39:20.680]  No.
[39:21.140 --> 39:29.480]  I mean, it's just, like, we're at a point where we're a country that get upset over the little things anymore.
[39:29.840 --> 39:30.360]  Mm-hmm.
[39:30.440 --> 39:41.020]  We got politicians on Twitter, like I keep saying, going on there to complain about Muppets taking vaccines and stuff like that, and doing...
[39:41.840 --> 39:43.280]  Can I ask a question, though?
[39:43.720 --> 39:51.840]  I mean, because I'm really not that attuned to the video game world, but has there ever been a video game that's all about hijacking a plane?
[39:51.840 --> 39:53.740]  Or is that considered bad taste?
[39:53.900 --> 40:01.180]  Because if it is considered bad taste, why is it okay to steal a car and kill people and run people over, but not hijack a plane?
[40:01.320 --> 40:06.840]  Or maybe there's a whole industry of plane hijacking games I don't know about, but people aren't talking about them.
[40:06.940 --> 40:13.160]  You can't sneak into an airport or into a military base and steal a plane.
[40:15.220 --> 40:17.100]  In video land, you can, probably.
[40:18.280 --> 40:23.480]  Yeah, Modern Warfare 2, you were deep under cover, and you had to shoot down civilians.
[40:23.920 --> 40:24.520]  Oh, wow.
[40:24.620 --> 40:24.780]  Okay.
[40:25.660 --> 40:30.040]  A part of Russian terrorists is trying to frame the United States for the terror.
[40:30.040 --> 40:40.380]  Yeah, I'm just saying, with the realism in Grand Theft Auto, you know, if you could get onto a plane and fly different parts of the world and then interact with people there, just saying, it could be a real cultural exchange.
[40:41.740 --> 40:42.140]  Yeah.
[40:43.280 --> 40:45.820]  You know, Alex, that's the next idea.
[40:45.820 --> 40:47.000]  Can you write that one down, too?
[40:47.180 --> 40:49.980]  That's the hijack a plane video game.
[40:50.100 --> 40:51.160]  I think there's something there.
[40:51.660 --> 40:51.760]  Yeah.
[40:51.760 --> 40:52.480]  Angry Diplomats.
[40:52.700 --> 41:03.460]  Well, I want to see a video game where Trump is tracking down the Illuminati and the lizard people and the elites.
[41:05.340 --> 41:11.020]  Okay, you have cable TV, turn on Fox News Channel, you'll get all that and more.
[41:11.900 --> 41:16.420]  There is a movie on TV called Trump versus the Illuminati.
[41:16.760 --> 41:17.500]  No joke.
[41:18.260 --> 41:18.600]  Wow.
[41:19.820 --> 41:20.420]  All right, cool.
[41:20.660 --> 41:20.860]  It's free.
[41:21.060 --> 41:22.120]  Everybody go check it out.
[41:23.720 --> 41:24.200]  Yeah.
[41:24.200 --> 41:41.500]  And this whole Trump keeping nuclear secrets thing, and he kind of bit up working too on this one, because the judge that they went to that they clamored for so much said, well, you need to present some evidence of this or else.
[41:42.680 --> 41:44.180]  They gave him to, like, two states.
[41:44.660 --> 41:46.700]  His own judge in Florida said that?
[41:47.740 --> 41:51.640]  No, the one that they appealed to and they agreed to appeal to on.
[41:51.720 --> 41:52.380]  Oh, the appeals court.
[41:52.840 --> 41:53.020]  Okay.
[41:53.720 --> 41:53.960]  Yeah.
[41:54.160 --> 41:54.900]  The Special Master.
[41:55.120 --> 41:56.200]  Oh, the Special Master.
[41:56.340 --> 41:56.560]  Okay.
[41:57.060 --> 41:57.360]  Yeah.
[41:57.840 --> 41:58.020]  Yeah.
[41:58.360 --> 41:58.780]  New York.
[42:01.340 --> 42:03.760]  It's just a bunch of stupid garbage.
[42:03.760 --> 42:04.720]  I hope he goes to jail.
[42:05.180 --> 42:13.060]  Well, there's so many possibilities, because, you know, I saw a list of all the different cases right now against him, and, you know, they almost ran out of space on the screen.
[42:13.240 --> 42:14.380]  There's that many.
[42:14.580 --> 42:19.440]  So, if he doesn't go to jail, he's going to be living in hell for quite a long time.
[42:20.680 --> 42:21.140]  Yeah.
[42:21.400 --> 42:22.240]  It's just unbelievable.
[42:22.300 --> 42:26.380]  Did you see Whistle thing over the weekend in Ohio?
[42:27.700 --> 42:28.160]  Yes.
[42:29.420 --> 42:32.180]  Apparently, QAnon has a theme song now.
[42:32.400 --> 42:33.000]  Oh, yeah.
[42:33.240 --> 42:34.040]  We talked about this.
[42:34.280 --> 42:35.020]  And now they're doing salutes.
[42:35.220 --> 42:37.940]  Where did the theme song come from?
[42:37.940 --> 42:40.140]  I never heard of a theme song, let alone heard it.
[42:40.400 --> 42:40.960]  I don't know.
[42:41.180 --> 42:43.460]  But they said it was a theme song, and then he was playing it.
[42:43.980 --> 42:45.580]  And now they're, like, saluting?
[42:46.380 --> 42:49.260]  Like, with two hands and two fingers pointed up?
[42:49.440 --> 42:49.800]  Well, no.
[42:49.840 --> 42:50.800]  So, one finger salute.
[42:50.960 --> 42:52.380]  Which, you know, I have a version of.
[42:52.420 --> 42:52.660]  Oh, okay.
[42:52.900 --> 42:56.100]  I use a version myself on a regular basis, but not the one they were doing.
[42:56.780 --> 42:57.800]  It's scary to see.
[42:57.960 --> 43:01.540]  A whole bunch of people pointing their arms straight outwards like that.
[43:03.480 --> 43:04.140]  It's hilarious.
[43:04.360 --> 43:06.400]  They don't seem to know that that is crazy looking.
[43:07.520 --> 43:09.260]  Just how bad a Nazi is.
[43:09.420 --> 43:15.340]  Disney was afraid to show Nazi saluting in Captain America, so they had them do a dual hand salute.
[43:16.620 --> 43:17.100]  Wow.
[43:17.560 --> 43:18.220]  Do you remember that?
[43:18.420 --> 43:19.180]  I think so.
[43:19.300 --> 43:19.980]  I think so.
[43:20.480 --> 43:20.740]  Yeah.
[43:21.400 --> 43:21.600]  All right.
[43:21.640 --> 43:23.280]  Hey, we're going to move on.
[43:23.360 --> 43:24.240]  Any final thoughts?
[43:25.420 --> 43:26.040]  Oh, no.
[43:26.240 --> 43:28.520]  I'm going to beg them for more stuff.
[43:28.680 --> 43:31.200]  I'm going to get this place there, and then I'll get back to it.
[43:31.200 --> 43:31.580]  All right.
[43:31.960 --> 43:33.940]  You're definitely on a good path.
[43:34.120 --> 43:36.640]  And, you know, people are going to notice the change.
[43:36.740 --> 43:39.540]  And they'll find out it's you that is responsible.
[43:41.080 --> 43:41.320]  Yeah.
[43:42.220 --> 43:45.320]  Organizing the neighborhood and well on your way to ombudsmanship.
[43:45.320 --> 43:45.760]  Mm-hmm.
[43:45.820 --> 43:46.760]  You'll be running the place soon.
[43:48.020 --> 43:48.260]  Yeah.
[43:48.500 --> 43:51.780]  I mean, with the pet parade, they can get, like, the animal shelter involved.
[43:52.000 --> 43:52.380]  Mm-hmm.
[43:53.240 --> 43:56.000]  Get free-stating and neutering going on.
[43:56.520 --> 43:57.380]  That's a great idea.
[43:57.920 --> 43:58.380]  Great idea.
[43:58.860 --> 43:59.220]  Absolutely.
[43:59.280 --> 44:01.500]  They can do a boat or drive while they're at it.
[44:01.760 --> 44:02.080]  Uh-huh.
[44:02.520 --> 44:02.860]  Yeah.
[44:03.340 --> 44:03.640]  Cool.
[44:03.640 --> 44:04.580]  Well, you know...
[44:04.580 --> 44:06.160]  Well, I'm sorry to bother you guys.
[44:06.300 --> 44:06.900]  I hope you have a good night.
[44:06.900 --> 44:07.660]  No, it's not a bother at all.
[44:07.740 --> 44:11.800]  Just please keep us updated on these things and keep making the place better.
[44:11.880 --> 44:12.360]  It sounds great.
[44:13.560 --> 44:13.960]  Okay.
[44:14.480 --> 44:15.140]  You have a good, man.
[44:15.320 --> 44:15.480]  All right.
[44:15.560 --> 44:15.800]  Take care.
[44:17.140 --> 44:17.640]  All right.
[44:18.180 --> 44:18.860]  One or two more.
[44:19.060 --> 44:20.520]  802-321-4225.
[44:21.380 --> 44:23.820]  802-321-HACK is our telephone number.
[44:25.800 --> 44:27.060]  It's so nice to hear from him.
[44:27.300 --> 44:28.100]  Yeah, it is.
[44:28.260 --> 44:29.140]  It's uplifting.
[44:29.960 --> 44:30.320]  Yeah.
[44:30.420 --> 44:31.280]  I'm having a fun evening.
[44:32.400 --> 44:34.540]  Can I tell a story about the special master?
[44:34.800 --> 44:35.440]  Yes, please.
[44:35.740 --> 44:36.240]  The more the better.
[44:36.260 --> 44:36.680]  I made him laugh.
[44:36.960 --> 44:38.620]  You made the special master laugh?
[44:38.760 --> 44:38.860]  How?
[44:39.160 --> 44:39.520]  Twice.
[44:40.320 --> 44:42.300]  You guys remember when I had jury duty in May?
[44:43.140 --> 44:43.660]  Yeah.
[44:43.760 --> 44:44.720]  It was that judge?
[44:45.020 --> 44:45.500]  Yeah.
[44:45.860 --> 44:46.340]  Really?
[44:46.700 --> 44:48.320]  I voirdeered in his courtroom.
[44:49.620 --> 44:50.140]  Wow.
[44:51.260 --> 44:51.780]  Yeah.
[44:52.300 --> 44:52.680]  That's...
[44:52.680 --> 44:53.700]  What can you tell us about him?
[44:53.800 --> 44:54.460]  What, you know...
[44:54.460 --> 44:54.920]  He...
[44:55.640 --> 44:56.680]  He's very...
[44:56.680 --> 44:58.660]  No nonsense, but very kind.
[44:58.940 --> 44:59.180]  Mm-hmm.
[44:59.180 --> 45:06.980]  And when he was, you know, interviewing each of the jurors, the prospective jurors, he was going down the list, and he...
[45:07.740 --> 45:18.720]  You know, we were in federal court in Brooklyn, so it was pulling a lot from Brooklyn and Queens, and there were a lot of names that might have proved difficult for people to pronounce on first guess.
[45:18.980 --> 45:19.100]  Okay.
[45:19.100 --> 45:19.900]  He was...
[45:19.900 --> 45:21.040]  Mine included.
[45:22.040 --> 45:26.660]  And he got mine right on the first go, and I said, well done, Your Honor.
[45:26.660 --> 45:28.680]  And he laughed, and he said, thank you.
[45:30.700 --> 45:32.920]  So, you know, nice guy.
[45:32.920 --> 45:38.460]  I made him laugh with some of the answers to the questions, and he then excused me from jury duty.
[45:38.660 --> 45:41.140]  So, two thumbs up for Judge Raymond Gilles.
[45:41.140 --> 45:43.500]  Because he was afraid you were going to keep making him laugh during the trial.
[45:44.000 --> 45:44.840]  Eminently possible.
[45:45.140 --> 45:46.940]  So, well done, Gila.
[45:47.500 --> 45:47.900]  Thank you.
[45:48.040 --> 45:50.000]  You got out of jury duty by making the judge laugh.
[45:50.180 --> 45:52.460]  I made John Cleese laugh, so that's something.
[45:52.660 --> 45:53.680]  That's very impressive.
[45:53.680 --> 45:56.680]  I said something, and he liked it on Twitter, which means he laughed.
[45:57.060 --> 45:57.360]  Or he...
[45:57.360 --> 45:57.840]  Absolutely.
[45:58.020 --> 45:58.140]  That's what that means.
[45:58.140 --> 45:59.080]  At least he didn't feel bad.
[45:59.080 --> 46:01.640]  So, if you can make John Cleese laugh, I think that's it.
[46:01.720 --> 46:02.880]  There's nothing more you can accomplish.
[46:03.020 --> 46:03.380]  I really...
[46:03.380 --> 46:03.660]  No.
[46:03.840 --> 46:04.620]  It's the end, really.
[46:04.860 --> 46:05.060]  Yeah.
[46:05.220 --> 46:06.140]  We have another phone call.
[46:06.200 --> 46:06.520]  Good evening.
[46:06.540 --> 46:07.720]  You're on Off The Hook Overtime.
[46:09.400 --> 46:10.380]  Good evening, gang.
[46:10.540 --> 46:11.460]  This is Tim from Connecticut.
[46:11.460 --> 46:12.040]  How you doing?
[46:12.040 --> 46:12.760]  Hey, what's up?
[46:14.080 --> 46:19.000]  Oh, I wasn't going to say anything, but I noticed on a little website, CNN.
[46:19.000 --> 46:25.840]  CNN.com, says that the DOJ can resume the criminal program of classified documents from Mar-a-Lago, the appeal court says.
[46:26.120 --> 46:27.640]  That happened tonight?
[46:28.300 --> 46:29.020]  While we were on the air.
[46:29.020 --> 46:31.940]  That came out at 739.
[46:32.700 --> 46:33.200]  Wow.
[46:33.200 --> 46:33.420]  Hell yeah.
[46:34.020 --> 46:34.360]  Wow.
[46:35.020 --> 46:36.240]  Less than an hour ago.
[46:36.420 --> 46:41.020]  Yeah, we've been unplugged offline and on air, so that's interesting.
[46:41.020 --> 46:43.080]  So, let me ask Alex.
[46:43.420 --> 46:48.420]  I wasn't going to call up to steer the phone conversation that way, but...
[46:48.420 --> 46:51.000]  No, you've made us very happy, so that's good to know.
[46:51.060 --> 47:01.800]  But Alex, let me ask you, so now with this happening, is there any chance that they can freeze it again and say, we're going to the Supreme Court, or we'll just keep going if they do go to the Supreme Court?
[47:04.000 --> 47:07.620]  They can go to the Supreme Court now and ask the same question.
[47:07.940 --> 47:10.460]  That's scary because of the way it's loaded, I think.
[47:10.460 --> 47:17.760]  But my question is, would the investigation have to stop while they're waiting for the Supreme Court, or will it continue until they get to the Supreme Court?
[47:17.940 --> 47:20.880]  Well, that would be up to the Supreme Court whether they grant a stay.
[47:21.020 --> 47:23.320]  They would have to make an application for a stay...
[47:23.320 --> 47:23.600]  Okay.
[47:23.900 --> 47:41.800]  ...to essentially preserve the status quo, preserve the status as things exist at this particular moment, and then depending upon the merits of the case and the rights that are at issue, the Supreme Court would determine whether or not to grant that stay.
[47:41.980 --> 47:45.940]  So right now, the Supreme Court could say, all right, stop.
[47:46.020 --> 47:48.380]  No more investigating until it gets to us.
[47:48.500 --> 47:54.980]  They could do that, or they can just let it play out, or they can rule on it a month from now.
[47:54.980 --> 47:57.880]  So I guess now we kind of wait.
[47:58.040 --> 48:06.140]  But meanwhile, while the investigators are able to actually look at the evidence, they can go 24-7, right?
[48:06.280 --> 48:07.540]  They can move pretty fast.
[48:07.940 --> 48:09.140]  Yeah, they could.
[48:09.480 --> 48:10.640]  I mean, if...
[48:10.640 --> 48:12.720]  Look, they would have to...
[48:13.420 --> 48:17.920]  It's not certain at all, by any means, that the Supreme Court would even take this case, right?
[48:18.320 --> 48:21.260]  The parties would have to petition for certiori.
[48:21.680 --> 48:26.540]  And then if the Supreme Court takes the case, they would determine...
[48:27.400 --> 48:29.180]  Well, then it would decide it on the merits.
[48:29.180 --> 48:46.980]  But I would think that what Trump's lawyers would probably have to do in the...near immediately would be to petition for a stay at the Supreme Court and then file for certiori, which would be for them to actually, you know, certify the issues in the case.
[48:47.160 --> 48:51.680]  That would take them a lot longer, and the court would have to vote on it in order to take that particular case.
[48:51.800 --> 48:53.680]  But they could ask for a stay.
[48:54.440 --> 48:58.100]  And if a stay were granted, they would...
[48:59.200 --> 49:02.120]  You know, that would be a clear signal, obviously, that they would take the case.
[49:03.780 --> 49:12.020]  I think, you know, they might be able to go to the circuit court and ask for a stay, too, perhaps if they're asking for a rehearing en banc, maybe.
[49:12.160 --> 49:20.380]  If you're asking for the whole court to reconsider the issue, rather than a panel of three judges, you know, that might be a possibility.
[49:20.380 --> 49:24.740]  So there might be some procedural wrangling that they could do.
[49:25.260 --> 49:26.340]  But what...
[49:26.340 --> 49:27.840]  If I were...
[49:27.840 --> 49:29.520]  And I hate to even say this.
[49:29.720 --> 49:31.360]  If I were Trump's lawyers...
[49:31.360 --> 49:31.820]  Oh, boy.
[49:32.400 --> 49:33.320]  Yeah, I know.
[49:33.960 --> 49:35.020]  First of all, you're not getting paid.
[49:35.720 --> 49:35.920]  Yeah.
[49:36.240 --> 49:37.100]  Yeah, don't turn on that.
[49:37.500 --> 49:38.180]  Cut his mic.
[49:38.940 --> 49:39.960]  That was funny.
[49:41.220 --> 49:41.740]  The...
[49:42.200 --> 49:58.380]  If I were Trump's lawyer, what I would do is signal to the government that despite the ruling, they probably should not resume, because that would prejudice Trump's rights, and let them know that you plan on petitioning for certiorari and filing a stay.
[49:58.860 --> 50:03.780]  And you could signal the government by blinking your eyes a certain amount of time, just like any hostage would.
[50:04.360 --> 50:07.780]  But you could just ask them to stay just a little bit longer.
[50:08.440 --> 50:08.860]  No.
[50:08.860 --> 50:09.920]  Please, please.
[50:10.180 --> 50:10.560]  Please.
[50:10.560 --> 50:12.220]  All right, Jackson Brown, that's enough of that.
[50:14.000 --> 50:16.680]  Caller, any more details or any other subject you want to discuss?
[50:16.800 --> 50:17.360]  No, no, no.
[50:17.500 --> 50:18.060]  I just...
[50:18.060 --> 50:22.480]  Like I said, I didn't mean to push it off into a political conversation, but...
[50:22.480 --> 50:23.760]  This is about justice.
[50:24.100 --> 50:25.100]  So, since I didn't initiate it...
[50:25.100 --> 50:43.820]  Oh, and I wanted to just say to the lady that wanted to be acknowledged on air with full name of all the programs that are played on BAI, this is not exactly the program I'd want my full information out on.
[50:45.500 --> 50:47.080]  That's probably wise, yeah.
[50:47.440 --> 50:51.140]  I probably wouldn't care, but I mean, here...
[50:51.140 --> 50:52.040]  I would...
[50:52.040 --> 50:56.840]  Wouldn't you be able to say that not necessarily every nice person on Earth is listening to this particular program?
[50:56.840 --> 50:58.000]  Well, it's not so much that.
[50:58.020 --> 50:59.840]  It's just this is what we're comfortable with.
[50:59.920 --> 51:00.680]  It's what we've always done.
[51:00.680 --> 51:02.680]  Please don't ask us to change what we do.
[51:02.680 --> 51:05.260]  You know, unless there's a really good reason for it.
[51:05.400 --> 51:07.160]  And I think the caller's hitting it...
[51:07.160 --> 51:10.140]  Well, just like the letter sections of the, you know, 2600 magazine.
[51:10.140 --> 51:11.700]  It's not like everybody's name and address.
[51:11.780 --> 51:14.900]  No, we always try and obscure that, you know, unless told otherwise.
[51:15.300 --> 51:15.420]  Yeah.
[51:15.760 --> 51:25.980]  And another way to put it would be that it's just contrary to all of the kinds of advice we give around some of these big issues on security and privacy.
[51:25.980 --> 51:30.580]  So it would be very odd for us to make that a practice.
[51:30.980 --> 51:31.200]  Yeah.
[51:32.480 --> 51:32.880]  Yeah.
[51:33.820 --> 51:34.220]  Intentionally.
[51:34.680 --> 51:34.920]  Yeah.
[51:35.160 --> 51:35.900]  It's really weird.
[51:38.560 --> 51:38.960]  Okay.
[51:39.040 --> 51:39.940]  Well, have a good night, guys.
[51:40.160 --> 51:40.380]  Thanks.
[51:40.480 --> 51:41.980]  Thanks for the info and thanks for calling.
[51:42.160 --> 51:42.420]  Take care.
[51:43.100 --> 51:43.320]  Sure.
[51:43.680 --> 51:43.920]  Bye-bye.
[51:44.080 --> 51:44.180]  Bye.
[51:45.320 --> 51:45.720]  Wow.
[51:46.100 --> 51:47.340]  So now how...
[51:47.340 --> 51:51.020]  First of all, Alex, did you ever appear before the special master?
[51:52.660 --> 51:53.440]  No, I didn't.
[51:53.580 --> 51:53.780]  Okay.
[51:53.780 --> 51:55.980]  I've been before the Supreme Court, but not the special.
[51:55.980 --> 51:56.020]  Yeah.
[51:56.020 --> 52:01.000]  But, you know, Gila's been in front of that judge and made him laugh twice, and you've never appeared before him.
[52:01.460 --> 52:01.880]  No.
[52:01.880 --> 52:04.400]  So I just think that's something to relish at the moment.
[52:04.400 --> 52:09.440]  Not that I recall, but yeah, I don't think I have.
[52:09.560 --> 52:13.420]  But you have appeared before many judges, because you're a lawyer, not because you're engaged in crime.
[52:14.100 --> 52:14.640]  That's correct.
[52:14.980 --> 52:24.780]  But one judge you did appear before was the judge that sentenced our friend Virgil to five years in prison, who I understand you saw recently.
[52:24.780 --> 52:26.060]  Can you tell us something about that?
[52:28.700 --> 52:29.860]  Well, I didn't see him.
[52:29.980 --> 52:34.040]  You're talking about Judge Castell in the Southern District of New York.
[52:34.440 --> 52:37.920]  No, I saw a different judge, by the way.
[52:38.200 --> 52:38.620]  Oh, you did?
[52:38.740 --> 52:38.920]  Okay.
[52:40.640 --> 52:42.300]  I thought you were familiar with that judge.
[52:42.820 --> 52:45.940]  Yeah, you're talking about the ETH.link saga, presumably.
[52:46.240 --> 52:47.060]  Well, no, I'm not talking about that.
[52:47.120 --> 52:52.520]  I'm talking about Virgil's case, you know, when he got sentenced by the judge.
[52:52.920 --> 52:54.880]  Oh, yeah, I saw him, yeah.
[52:55.220 --> 52:56.320]  That's what I'm talking about, yeah.
[52:56.840 --> 53:03.120]  We didn't even bring up the ETH.link thing, but now we'll get into that after you tell us how Virgil is, because you saw him.
[53:04.020 --> 53:04.680]  Yeah, that's correct.
[53:04.680 --> 53:06.820]  I did see Virgil last week.
[53:07.100 --> 53:19.000]  And, you know, I don't want to go into, obviously, everything that we discussed, but he's doing much better, and I think was in really good spirits, and was deeply, deeply appreciative of all the support from the community.
[53:19.000 --> 53:24.200]  And I think I'm just making a real measurable difference for him.
[53:24.420 --> 53:29.760]  And, you know, he really wanted me to reach out and thank everybody.
[53:30.160 --> 53:35.340]  You know, it would be great if we can get him on this show sometime, somehow, if we can figure out how to do that.
[53:35.700 --> 53:36.060]  Yeah.
[53:36.340 --> 53:37.320]  If he's open to it.
[53:37.920 --> 53:42.440]  It'll be difficult, I think, in the short term, but, you know, maybe in the long term.
[53:43.460 --> 53:50.800]  You know, and that's essentially what he's got to do is really just, you know, blend in and get through this.
[53:51.580 --> 53:58.660]  But, you know, it was, you know, it was an ordeal getting over there and seeing him, but I'm really glad that I didn't.
[53:58.820 --> 54:07.160]  I have to say, you know, you know, having a conversation with Virgil is always interesting.
[54:07.160 --> 54:12.680]  Well, he's miles ahead of you in so many ways, not you specifically, but just in general.
[54:12.900 --> 54:13.280]  No doubt.
[54:13.460 --> 54:17.720]  No, I mean, it's very clear you're not the smartest guy in the room whenever you're talking with him, right?
[54:17.920 --> 54:22.700]  That's why the judge was so angry with him, because he's just so dwarfed in comparison.
[54:23.120 --> 54:28.340]  He's so goddamn smart, such a fascinating guy, and, you know, and inherently kind, too.
[54:28.340 --> 54:31.480]  So, yeah, it was good to see him.
[54:31.620 --> 54:38.600]  I'm glad that I did, and I'm glad that I can report that he's doing well, and everybody should, I think, you know, continue to support him.
[54:38.720 --> 54:45.060]  He's got a ways to go, but if we're all here for him, it's going to make a difference.
[54:45.360 --> 54:49.380]  Now, can you tell us the whole ETH.Link story, whatever you're able to tell us?
[54:50.000 --> 54:51.740]  Yeah, well, we talked about it a couple of weeks ago.
[54:51.740 --> 54:56.780]  I'll just, you know, talk about where things stand now, at the moment.
[54:57.520 --> 55:06.760]  So, we actually filed a lawsuit on behalf of the Ethereum Name Service and Virgil in Federal District Court in Phoenix, Arizona.
[55:06.760 --> 55:26.700]  And we had successfully argued for the return of the domain name to go back to the plaintiffs, Virgil Griffith and the Ethereum Name Service, by obtaining a preliminary injunction against GoDaddy, Dynadot, and the purchaser of the domain name when it was sold at auction for 852,
[55:26.900 --> 55:30.900]  around, I believe, $852,000 manifold capital.
[55:31.200 --> 55:32.760]  So, that's where things stand now.
[55:33.020 --> 55:35.040]  I think it was a great result.
[55:35.220 --> 55:35.960]  Huge win.
[55:36.540 --> 55:39.480]  Big win for Virgil and the Ethereum Name Service.
[55:39.480 --> 55:50.180]  And I think really is, hopefully, an indication that things are on the right track for this matter to be disposed of in the right way.
[55:54.120 --> 56:01.080]  Well, it was really something that, you know, you went all the way down there to take care of this.
[56:01.080 --> 56:02.060]  Yeah.
[56:02.300 --> 56:04.080]  We had to go to Phoenix.
[56:04.320 --> 56:12.020]  So, I had just come back from Corsica in Italy and then had to get on a plane to Phoenix.
[56:13.140 --> 56:14.420]  But, look, we did it.
[56:14.440 --> 56:19.380]  And I worked with an absolutely amazing team at my firm with Kroll.
[56:19.540 --> 56:22.940]  And we were able to put this together over Labor Day weekend.
[56:23.300 --> 56:25.800]  We put the labor, unfortunately, into Labor Day.
[56:25.800 --> 56:26.120]  Right.
[56:26.600 --> 56:30.980]  Got this filed, got called into court, flew over there, and won the motion.
[56:31.500 --> 56:33.980]  So, yeah, that's where things stand.
[56:33.980 --> 56:39.960]  I think there's still a lot of activity on this front and more to report in future weeks.
[56:40.520 --> 56:40.720]  Cool.
[56:41.380 --> 56:42.100]  All right.
[56:42.540 --> 56:45.660]  Should we try to take one more phone call?
[56:46.740 --> 56:47.820]  Yeah, I think so.
[56:48.120 --> 56:48.240]  Yeah.
[56:48.600 --> 56:48.860]  All right.
[56:48.940 --> 56:50.660]  802-321-4225.
[56:51.580 --> 56:53.040]  That's our phone number.
[56:54.840 --> 56:55.200]  And...
[56:55.600 --> 56:56.540]  Do we have...
[56:56.540 --> 56:56.920]  Do we have...
[56:56.920 --> 56:58.260]  Why am I so low all of a sudden?
[56:58.600 --> 56:59.580]  I didn't do anything.
[57:00.160 --> 57:01.940]  I'm just sitting here and my volume changed.
[57:02.040 --> 57:02.700]  There's something...
[57:02.700 --> 57:04.380]  Something going on with the board over here.
[57:06.840 --> 57:07.460]  You know what?
[57:07.560 --> 57:08.160]  It was this.
[57:08.880 --> 57:09.620]  This is it.
[57:10.280 --> 57:13.320]  Kyle, when you told me to turn this level down, you also were turning me down.
[57:13.520 --> 57:14.220]  It was...
[57:14.220 --> 57:14.880]  Oh, wow.
[57:15.300 --> 57:15.660]  So...
[57:15.660 --> 57:16.060]  Because of that...
[57:16.060 --> 57:17.420]  I'm not going to listen to you anymore.
[57:17.420 --> 57:18.500]  That thing where it jumps.
[57:18.840 --> 57:18.920]  Mm-hmm.
[57:19.320 --> 57:19.660]  Uh...
[57:19.660 --> 57:23.340]  It has something to do with us looping audio back to them so they can hear us.
[57:24.120 --> 57:24.800]  But, uh...
[57:24.800 --> 57:26.400]  I don't have time to play with it.
[57:26.580 --> 57:26.760]  No.
[57:26.860 --> 57:27.760]  None of us have any time.
[57:27.960 --> 57:28.540]  Do we have a phone call?
[57:30.120 --> 57:30.460]  No.
[57:30.720 --> 57:32.540]  Okay, so our listeners don't have time to call us either.
[57:32.560 --> 57:37.140]  Well, we only have about a minute left before we're contractually obligated to stay.
[57:37.700 --> 57:38.140]  Uh...
[57:38.140 --> 57:42.340]  So, if anyone wants to call us, 802-321-4225, 802-321-HACK.
[57:43.920 --> 57:44.800]  And, um...
[57:44.800 --> 57:45.600]  Yeah.
[57:47.520 --> 57:48.560]  I'm out of things to say.
[57:49.560 --> 57:54.940]  Well, while we're waiting, I'll also just throw out there, you can find us on Twitter, at HackerRadioShow.
[57:56.120 --> 57:57.000]  And, uh...
[57:57.000 --> 58:10.760]  A listener called Ryan sent us a picture over Twitter, which is not really something we can relate well over audio, except to describe it as a picture of a bottle of barbecue sauce with off-the-hook written on it, which, uh...
[58:10.760 --> 58:11.040]  Wow.
[58:11.320 --> 58:11.460]  Yeah.
[58:11.580 --> 58:13.820]  I appreciate the gift of this photo.
[58:13.960 --> 58:14.380]  Thank you, Ryan.
[58:14.520 --> 58:21.100]  That can be sent in to articles at 2600.com and possibly printed on the back cover of the magazine.
[58:21.640 --> 58:22.380]  So, consider that.
[58:22.380 --> 58:24.060]  Yes, Ryan, if you're listening, you should do this.
[58:24.060 --> 58:24.480]  Yes.
[58:24.680 --> 58:29.160]  Before you disqualify yourself by sharing it with too many people, so it becomes well-known before you send it in.
[58:29.680 --> 58:30.440]  We have a call?
[58:30.540 --> 58:32.100]  We need marinating instructions, too.
[58:33.560 --> 58:34.340]  Yes, there's a call.
[58:34.360 --> 58:34.740]  There's a call.
[58:34.840 --> 58:35.000]  Okay.
[58:35.640 --> 58:36.380]  And good evening.
[58:36.380 --> 58:37.740]  You're on off-the-hook overtime.
[58:40.620 --> 58:41.860]  Carl, you said we had a call.
[58:43.300 --> 58:45.400]  If this is a call, it's a very quiet call.
[58:48.380 --> 58:50.120]  Okay, that was not funny.
[58:51.540 --> 58:52.720]  That was an off-the-hook tone.
[58:56.220 --> 58:57.040]  So meta.
[58:57.620 --> 59:03.900]  There was a network intervention at the top of the hour, and we...
[59:03.900 --> 59:06.500]  We'll give it another minute, and then we're out of here.
[59:06.500 --> 59:12.420]  We'll wait, but the future is also waiting, and we can't spend it here with you.
[59:12.420 --> 59:29.160]  No, but speaking of the future, not entirely hacking-related, but confidential to everyone who is celebrating next week, best wishes for happy, healthy, sweet new year.
[59:30.680 --> 59:31.280]  Oh, yes.
[59:31.420 --> 59:35.300]  I thought it was the Mets who we were going to be celebrating, because maybe they'll be still in first place then?
[59:35.900 --> 59:36.680]  Anything is possible.
[59:36.920 --> 59:36.980]  Yeah.
[59:36.980 --> 59:38.920]  Also, I hear Aaron Judge has something percolating.
[59:39.220 --> 59:43.640]  But, um, no, just shouting out my jews.
[59:43.980 --> 59:44.340]  Uh-huh.
[59:44.580 --> 59:44.780]  Uh-huh.
[59:44.860 --> 59:45.920]  Shana Tova, everybody.
[59:46.160 --> 59:46.560]  Very cool.
[59:47.980 --> 59:49.780]  Now, Kyle, you made another mysterious motion.
[59:49.880 --> 59:50.540]  Does that mean we have a call?
[59:50.540 --> 59:50.740]  Yes.
[59:50.920 --> 59:51.140]  Okay.
[59:51.320 --> 59:51.980]  We have another call.
[59:52.100 --> 59:52.680]  Let's try this one.
[59:52.700 --> 59:53.020]  Good evening.
[59:53.160 --> 59:53.880]  You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
[59:53.940 --> 59:54.140]  Go ahead.
[59:55.500 --> 59:56.040]  Hey, guys.
[59:56.180 --> 59:56.960]  How's it going tonight?
[59:57.140 --> 59:57.680]  Hey, what's up?
[59:58.520 --> 59:59.520]  Hey, my name's Dave.
[59:59.780 --> 01:00:07.020]  Uh, I thought I'd chime in on the, the, uh, apple kerfuffle that's been going on the last few weeks.
[01:00:07.160 --> 01:00:08.380]  Oh, I didn't know that was still going on.
[01:00:08.520 --> 01:00:10.280]  Okay, but yeah, chime in, by all means.
[01:00:11.900 --> 01:00:17.460]  Um, yeah, I, I, I think that there's, I, I, I want to defend Gila a little bit.
[01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:28.040]  Um, and I, I know that, uh, sometimes the frameworks and the software can be confusing and stuff, but I'm not an apple fan boy.
[01:00:28.240 --> 01:00:30.160]  I'm not calling it as an apple fan boy.
[01:00:30.580 --> 01:00:35.400]  I'm an old Commodore IBM guy from the early days.
[01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:39.600]  Um, but, uh, it's a hardware company essentially.
[01:00:39.600 --> 01:00:41.060]  And I don't know.
[01:00:41.160 --> 01:00:52.020]  I wanted to hear your thoughts on if you're going for like a security minded point of view, wouldn't you want a hardware company to be on your side instead of a, instead of an advertising company?
[01:00:52.620 --> 01:00:53.600]  Oh, that's a good point.
[01:00:53.900 --> 01:00:54.320]  Yeah.
[01:00:54.680 --> 01:01:03.920]  Electrical, electrical engineering and, uh, other, um, areas of expertise are maybe not, not, uh, staffed in the same way as a, uh, uh, alphabet.
[01:01:04.720 --> 01:01:04.940]  Huh?
[01:01:05.140 --> 01:01:05.480]  Interesting.
[01:01:05.780 --> 01:01:07.160]  Any, any, any thoughts Gila?
[01:01:07.560 --> 01:01:09.680]  I just appreciated the defending Gila part.
[01:01:09.820 --> 01:01:11.020]  I very much appreciate that caller.
[01:01:11.180 --> 01:01:11.480]  Thank you.
[01:01:17.940 --> 01:01:20.820]  No, I mean, I don't want to have to go through a second step.
[01:01:21.120 --> 01:01:29.120]  I don't know why I have to run everything through iTunes and I can't just like, there's an MP3 file somewhere on my phone and I can't just hit a button and play it.
[01:01:29.220 --> 01:01:29.960]  That's all I want to do.
[01:01:30.300 --> 01:01:31.000]  That's all I want to do.
[01:01:31.060 --> 01:01:33.020]  I want to listen to our wedding song on a regular basis.
[01:01:33.160 --> 01:01:34.080]  Is that so wrong?
[01:01:35.720 --> 01:01:37.460]  Well, that's the question, I guess.
[01:01:38.280 --> 01:01:38.460]  Yeah.
[01:01:38.720 --> 01:01:42.320]  I think that's the un-user friendly aspect of it.
[01:01:42.460 --> 01:01:55.560]  I think at, at the core of it though, we're talking about like a Unix-based system from security, which is, you know, like, Linux and Unix kind of have that under control, whereas Windows took years to catch up.
[01:01:58.560 --> 01:02:09.940]  And, you know, how you get your files around can be annoying, but I would think at the end of the day, we would want to support the more security-minded platforms.
[01:02:10.840 --> 01:02:17.880]  And I'm of the mindset that now, at least, Apple is more in tune with that.
[01:02:18.160 --> 01:02:19.160]  That could change.
[01:02:19.480 --> 01:02:22.420]  And it may not have always been the case, but I think that's where we're at.
[01:02:24.900 --> 01:02:28.980]  I'm not wading into this one, but any thoughts from you guys?
[01:02:29.120 --> 01:02:32.400]  And we'll leave it, I guess.
[01:02:33.380 --> 01:02:39.860]  I just have an intrinsic distaste for any time I'm using a computer that is trying to hide from me what it's doing.
[01:02:41.460 --> 01:02:41.860]  Wow.
[01:02:42.780 --> 01:02:43.640]  On any level.
[01:02:44.180 --> 01:02:48.220]  It's like a car when it has one thing that's like something is wrong with your car.
[01:02:48.800 --> 01:02:49.900]  It's the same kind of thing.
[01:02:51.640 --> 01:02:52.260]  Tell me.
[01:02:52.620 --> 01:02:53.140]  Be specific.
[01:02:53.440 --> 01:02:54.080]  Let me know what you're doing.
[01:02:58.320 --> 01:03:00.280]  But yes, thank you for coming to my defense caller.
[01:03:00.580 --> 01:03:02.660]  We're all so terrified to talk about this.
[01:03:03.880 --> 01:03:05.860]  But yeah, thanks for, thanks for attending my call.
[01:03:06.240 --> 01:03:06.800]  I'll call back.
[01:03:07.060 --> 01:03:07.340]  All right.
[01:03:08.740 --> 01:03:09.140]  Yeah.
[01:03:10.220 --> 01:03:11.100]  Thanks for listening.
[01:03:11.340 --> 01:03:15.240]  And if any of your observations are totally welcome.
[01:03:15.380 --> 01:03:16.080]  Anytime, please.
[01:03:16.560 --> 01:03:17.160]  Others are...
[01:03:17.160 --> 01:03:17.260]  Oh, thanks.
[01:03:17.420 --> 01:03:17.720]  Yeah.
[01:03:17.800 --> 01:03:19.420]  I've been listening for 25 years.
[01:03:19.500 --> 01:03:21.440]  I'm going to keep listening as long as you have to do it.
[01:03:21.920 --> 01:03:22.320]  Wow.
[01:03:22.520 --> 01:03:23.580]  You might need a break.
[01:03:23.720 --> 01:03:25.940]  I mean, 25 years, that's a long time to deal with us.
[01:03:26.880 --> 01:03:28.220]  Not continuously, Emmanuel.
[01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:30.460]  Even so.
[01:03:30.620 --> 01:03:30.960]  Wow.
[01:03:31.060 --> 01:03:32.360]  Thank you for your support.
[01:03:33.440 --> 01:03:33.640]  Yeah.
[01:03:33.880 --> 01:03:34.140]  Take care.
[01:03:34.140 --> 01:03:34.560]  All right.
[01:03:34.640 --> 01:03:34.880]  Take care.
[01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:36.200]  Wow.
[01:03:36.400 --> 01:03:37.580]  Oh, that's a good call to end on, I think.
[01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:38.020]  Yeah.
[01:03:38.160 --> 01:03:39.740]  I was just going to add further insights.
[01:03:39.980 --> 01:03:43.280]  Please write us, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[01:03:43.480 --> 01:03:47.200]  I was very serious about my question about accessing SIM.
[01:03:47.200 --> 01:03:49.160]  Like, what kinds of software?
[01:03:49.160 --> 01:03:54.600]  What do people do when you're moving information from a SIM, or you just want to interrogate a SIM?
[01:03:54.760 --> 01:03:58.000]  You want to have a real stern conversation about what kind of data is there.
[01:03:58.780 --> 01:04:04.080]  I have a couple I'm playing around with, and I'm really curious what the state of the art is.
[01:04:04.220 --> 01:04:07.940]  And I like the idea of keeping your data on a SIM.
[01:04:07.940 --> 01:04:15.200]  That way, you can just take it out of the phone whenever you want, if you're going through a border, and just put it somewhere else, or mail it to yourself, or something.
[01:04:15.340 --> 01:04:16.460]  Of course, you know, encrypt it.
[01:04:17.220 --> 01:04:25.060]  But maybe that's a better way than keeping things on your phone, if they're going to basically violate your rights and search it without a warrant.
[01:04:25.660 --> 01:04:25.960]  Yeah.
[01:04:25.960 --> 01:04:29.820]  Although, if you're using the next generation of iPhone, I think they've announced that it's going to be SIM-less.
[01:04:30.080 --> 01:04:30.260]  Right.
[01:04:30.260 --> 01:04:30.520]  You see?
[01:04:30.660 --> 01:04:32.200]  Now, here we go again with Mac.
[01:04:32.520 --> 01:04:32.800]  You know?
[01:04:33.040 --> 01:04:33.340]  Apple.
[01:04:34.000 --> 01:04:35.120]  That's so true, Rob.
[01:04:35.260 --> 01:04:35.780]  I mean, you're right.
[01:04:35.900 --> 01:04:36.860]  These decisions.
[01:04:37.040 --> 01:04:46.200]  It's all virtual SIM now, or assigned numbers or serialization instead of a physical piece of hardware.
[01:04:46.340 --> 01:04:46.880]  How about this?
[01:04:47.260 --> 01:04:52.920]  I'm sure this software exists, where you just basically hit a button, and your entire phone is encrypted, and that's it.
[01:04:53.040 --> 01:04:55.080]  And it can't be unencrypted, period.
[01:04:55.080 --> 01:04:55.920]  For real encrypted.
[01:04:56.160 --> 01:04:56.660]  For real encrypted.
[01:04:56.800 --> 01:05:04.200]  Not just, you know, a passcode to open up, unlock your phone that they can guess, but a passphrase, is something, you know, really difficult.
[01:05:04.740 --> 01:05:08.680]  Are they saying that you have to basically give up your phone if you won't tell them what it is?
[01:05:09.460 --> 01:05:11.740]  You know, has this been tested?
[01:05:11.900 --> 01:05:12.500]  I'm sure it has.
[01:05:13.960 --> 01:05:14.320]  Yeah.
[01:05:14.380 --> 01:05:21.500]  I mean, all the encryption in the world won't help you if you're in a situation in which an authority figure is telling you, you have to unlock this for me now.
[01:05:22.360 --> 01:05:28.620]  Yeah, I would refuse to do that, but I would prefer it if it was backed up someplace else so I could still get to it.
[01:05:28.620 --> 01:05:29.200]  Yeah.
[01:05:29.360 --> 01:05:31.000]  Play the game the way they're playing it.
[01:05:31.040 --> 01:05:36.540]  I mean, if they're creating a choke point with devices, just make it so that you're not bringing devices through that.
[01:05:36.700 --> 01:05:43.920]  I mean, that's the way to not be considered disrupting it, and you just have to work around this stuff.
[01:05:44.120 --> 01:05:45.240]  It's a physical network.
[01:05:45.380 --> 01:05:49.880]  There's, of course, a huge virtual network that we're all using all the time.
[01:05:49.880 --> 01:06:01.120]  So I think that you must act accordingly until these things have built in protections so we actually understand who actually is accessing some of this stuff.
[01:06:01.120 --> 01:06:19.760]  And really, if there is real justification or if it's being considered an accident and all that kind of stuff, you know, or just sort of, oops, we just took everything and we have some loss somewhere or it's somebody's call in the moment and no accountability.
[01:06:20.340 --> 01:06:20.940]  I know.
[01:06:21.260 --> 01:06:27.360]  What if we made our own SIM card, okay, for those phones that use SIMs?
[01:06:27.740 --> 01:06:36.480]  And we simply populated it with all kinds of messages and contacts and things like that, but it's just, you know, our version.
[01:06:36.680 --> 01:06:42.460]  It's just we create a fake persona and a history and life, and we basically sell that to people.
[01:06:42.620 --> 01:06:46.640]  And then when they come into a border, they take their SIM card out, they put ours in, and they have a whole new identity.
[01:06:47.220 --> 01:06:52.580]  And before you know it, Cousins and Border Patrol are getting all these phones from people that are all the same person.
[01:06:52.740 --> 01:06:53.380]  That drives them crazy.
[01:06:53.680 --> 01:06:54.480]  Alex, write that one down.
[01:06:54.560 --> 01:06:55.460]  That's my best one yet.
[01:06:55.580 --> 01:06:57.520]  That's the one I want to go with tonight.
[01:06:57.680 --> 01:06:58.660]  I got it, I got it, I got it.
[01:06:58.680 --> 01:06:59.280]  What do we call that one?
[01:06:59.720 --> 01:07:00.220]  Spartacus SIM.
[01:07:00.640 --> 01:07:01.180]  Spartacus SIM.
[01:07:01.380 --> 01:07:02.120]  I am Spartacus.
[01:07:02.140 --> 01:07:02.760]  I love it.
[01:07:02.820 --> 01:07:03.420]  That's beautiful.
[01:07:03.580 --> 01:07:04.080]  That's amazing.
[01:07:04.660 --> 01:07:07.640]  Okay, we got to cut off because we're coming up with too many ideas and the listeners are going to take them all.
[01:07:08.200 --> 01:07:08.980]  Thank you, listeners.
[01:07:09.720 --> 01:07:11.080]  Yeah, that and the algorithms.
[01:07:11.460 --> 01:07:11.640]  Yes.
[01:07:12.280 --> 01:07:14.920]  And please write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[01:07:14.920 --> 01:07:16.020]  We'll see you next week.
[01:07:16.220 --> 01:07:16.620]  Really?
[01:07:16.760 --> 01:07:17.760]  We want two weeks in a row?
[01:07:18.360 --> 01:07:19.280]  Are they mad?
[01:07:19.500 --> 01:07:20.680]  That hasn't happened in a while.
[01:07:21.160 --> 01:07:21.640]  Keep hacking.
[01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:22.180]  Yeah.
[01:07:22.360 --> 01:07:27.160]  And we'll be back on BAI at 7pm and on YouTube at 8pm.
[01:07:29.000 --> 01:07:34.400]  And write to us, OTH at 2600.com and keep alert and awake and let us know what you find out.
[01:07:34.660 --> 01:07:35.320]  Thanks for listening.
[01:07:35.620 --> 01:07:35.880]  Good night.
[01:07:35.880 --> 01:07:35.960]  All right.
[01:07:36.680 --> 01:07:36.840]  Bye.