[00:00.000 --> 00:02.640]  ...of what WBAI brings to the table.
[00:02.960 --> 00:16.380]  And if you appreciate what we do here on a regular basis, please consider becoming a financial supporter to this radio station by calling 212-209-2950 or go to give to WBAI.org online.
[00:16.940 --> 00:18.620]  It is now 7 p.m.
[00:18.700 --> 00:20.020]  Stay tuned for Off the Hook.
[00:20.220 --> 00:22.240]  Coming up, stay tuned.
[00:44.300 --> 00:51.000]  Due to local telephone company trouble in the area you are calling, your call cannot be completed at this time.
[00:51.280 --> 00:52.480]  Please try your call later.
[00:53.040 --> 00:54.080]  078-P.
[00:56.440 --> 00:57.460]  We're sorry.
[00:57.480 --> 01:03.760]  The number you have reached, 99.5 WBAI, is now Off the Hook.
[01:08.980 --> 01:13.500]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:14.400 --> 01:16.440]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:16.880 --> 01:19.000]  Now I can't make a cough.
[01:19.620 --> 01:21.840]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:24.610 --> 01:27.250]  Bum-diddly-bum for the best expect from worst.
[01:27.810 --> 01:29.770]  I hope that's understood.
[01:30.090 --> 01:30.790]  Bum-diddly-bum!
[02:55.380 --> 02:57.760]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:57.880 --> 02:59.540]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:59.780 --> 03:05.320]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Kyle.
[03:05.660 --> 03:06.260]  Yo, everybody.
[03:06.260 --> 03:09.640]  You know, I forgot to hit this button here.
[03:09.740 --> 03:12.740]  And what happens when I hit this button, our audio changes.
[03:13.040 --> 03:18.080]  So, we sound good now, but as soon as I hit this button, who knows what's going to happen.
[03:18.160 --> 03:18.600]  You ready, Kyle?
[03:19.360 --> 03:19.940]  I'll try.
[03:20.140 --> 03:20.460]  All right.
[03:20.540 --> 03:22.140]  I'm going to do it in the middle of a sentence.
[03:22.140 --> 03:24.500]  That way you can see the dramatic difference when I start.
[03:25.040 --> 03:25.760]  Oh, no.
[03:26.540 --> 03:27.320]  That's awful.
[03:27.420 --> 03:27.780]  Wow.
[03:28.380 --> 03:28.740]  Okay.
[03:28.980 --> 03:29.720]  Is this okay?
[03:29.900 --> 03:30.920]  How do you sound now, Kyle?
[03:31.400 --> 03:32.340]  I think I'm okay.
[03:32.340 --> 03:32.720]  All right.
[03:32.780 --> 03:35.960]  Now, our friends over in Skypeland, they're the variable here.
[03:36.800 --> 03:38.480]  Let's say hello to Rob T.
[03:38.680 --> 03:39.120]  Firefly.
[03:40.320 --> 03:41.500]  Hello, from a variable.
[03:41.740 --> 03:41.920]  Okay.
[03:41.920 --> 03:42.620]  He sounds all right.
[03:42.700 --> 03:43.300]  He sounds all right.
[03:43.360 --> 03:46.200]  Now, Gila, let's hear how you sound.
[03:47.040 --> 03:49.080]  Hello, from a slightly different variable.
[03:49.400 --> 03:49.660]  Okay.
[03:49.860 --> 03:50.260]  All right.
[03:50.460 --> 03:51.840]  And, um...
[03:51.840 --> 03:52.680]  Okay.
[03:52.720 --> 03:53.500]  There's no avoiding it.
[03:54.960 --> 03:58.400]  Alex, let's see what you bring to the table.
[03:59.760 --> 04:00.160]  Yep.
[04:00.460 --> 04:02.240]  Good evening, from another variable.
[04:02.440 --> 04:03.640]  You could be a little louder.
[04:04.240 --> 04:05.380]  I don't often say that.
[04:05.500 --> 04:07.880]  I don't often say that, but you could be a little louder.
[04:08.400 --> 04:08.940]  All right.
[04:09.060 --> 04:09.320]  Interesting.
[04:09.480 --> 04:12.140]  I'm using a different setup tonight, because I'm in another location.
[04:12.340 --> 04:12.660]  Okay.
[04:12.720 --> 04:13.260]  Where are you now?
[04:13.340 --> 04:14.780]  Always around the world.
[04:15.500 --> 04:15.900]  Yeah.
[04:16.060 --> 04:17.140]  Well, I'm in Florida now.
[04:17.380 --> 04:20.880]  I'm, uh, I'm, I'm visiting with my mother and here with the family.
[04:21.020 --> 04:24.520]  And, uh, yeah, it said it's been a little cold, I have to say.
[04:24.760 --> 04:25.160]  Okay.
[04:25.240 --> 04:27.480]  A little cold in Florida means what?
[04:27.680 --> 04:28.700]  55 degrees?
[04:29.520 --> 04:31.140]  No, it's been below freezing.
[04:31.280 --> 04:31.660]  Really?
[04:31.820 --> 04:31.900]  Yeah.
[04:32.180 --> 04:32.400]  Wow.
[04:32.540 --> 04:32.760]  Yeah.
[04:33.000 --> 04:35.380]  I mean, this whole bomb cyclone thing was no joke.
[04:35.520 --> 04:40.960]  It is, uh, it is extended, you know, latitude wise, as far down as Florida.
[04:41.120 --> 04:44.640]  I mean, it, it, it was literally below freezing gear.
[04:44.820 --> 04:45.860]  People were freaking out.
[04:46.660 --> 04:47.520]  It's just unheard of.
[04:47.740 --> 04:52.640]  It's, um, uh, I think it's by decree, by the governor's decree, uh, people don't have heaters.
[04:53.440 --> 04:54.020]  Is that right?
[04:54.680 --> 04:55.880]  Uh, I don't know.
[04:56.040 --> 04:58.980]  I don't know what this governor is decreeing and what he's not decreeing.
[04:59.180 --> 05:00.360]  He's not my favorite guy.
[05:00.360 --> 05:00.780]  It's believable.
[05:01.020 --> 05:01.380]  For sure.
[05:01.460 --> 05:02.160]  He could, he could do that.
[05:02.240 --> 05:06.660]  But I know a lot of homes in Florida do not have heaters because they don't expect it to get this cold.
[05:07.420 --> 05:07.780]  Yeah.
[05:08.000 --> 05:08.160]  Yeah.
[05:08.220 --> 05:09.300]  I mean, why would they?
[05:09.500 --> 05:09.640]  Right?
[05:09.780 --> 05:11.660]  I mean, it's just, it's usually the other way around.
[05:11.760 --> 05:15.700]  I mean, usually we come down here in December, hang out with my mother and it's 80 degrees.
[05:15.700 --> 05:16.680]  We're at the pool.
[05:17.040 --> 05:22.980]  I mean, it was, and even today we were, we were at the pool, but it was below freezing.
[05:23.120 --> 05:23.640]  Hold on a second.
[05:23.800 --> 05:26.060]  It's below freezing, but you still went to the pool.
[05:26.580 --> 05:27.580]  Well, not today.
[05:27.800 --> 05:29.620]  Today was about 60 something degrees.
[05:29.820 --> 05:31.440]  I'm, I'm around the Tampa area.
[05:31.440 --> 05:33.160]  So it's starting to heat back up again.
[05:33.360 --> 05:38.160]  So it was maybe 65 degrees, but the water in the pool, which is a heated pool was around 85.
[05:38.360 --> 05:39.300]  I think it was.
[05:39.480 --> 05:43.180]  So the temperature in the pool was much warmer than the temperature outside.
[05:43.720 --> 05:46.100]  It was an interesting, uh, it was an interesting feeling.
[05:46.800 --> 05:47.300]  All right.
[05:47.360 --> 05:50.340]  Well, we're five minutes into the show now we've covered the weather and Florida.
[05:50.820 --> 05:53.820]  So let's, uh, let's try and move on because we, we're not on that often.
[05:54.060 --> 05:57.720]  You might've noticed we weren't on last week and folks, I got bad news.
[05:57.840 --> 05:58.920]  We're not gonna be on next week either.
[05:59.200 --> 06:02.140]  There's a lot of different, uh, emergency fundraisers going on.
[06:02.220 --> 06:13.240]  And we need to also remind people to please pledge what you can afford to WBAI so that we can continue to transmit, which is very, very important in, um, in, in the life of any radio station.
[06:13.400 --> 06:14.500]  We don't have commercials.
[06:14.640 --> 06:16.280]  We have alternative programming.
[06:16.480 --> 06:22.060]  And, um, when we are on the air, we try and cover as much of that as possible tonight.
[06:22.420 --> 06:23.900]  It's the last show of the year.
[06:24.560 --> 06:41.780]  And as we believe this tradition, even though every time I do this, there doesn't seem to be any, any, uh, history of it, but I thought that we were predicting things for the year ahead and, um, reminiscing over things that just happened this year.
[06:42.240 --> 06:49.920]  So what we are asking everybody to do as is this alleged tradition, which I think maybe we did it on overtime last year.
[06:50.020 --> 06:53.440]  Maybe that's why, uh, it's not on the actual recording of the show.
[06:53.680 --> 07:10.980]  Um, I'm going to ask people to, um, uh, basically tell the audience what the most important story you thought this year was in the world of technology or hacking and also, uh, a prediction for something in the world of technology coming up in the next year.
[07:11.080 --> 07:11.860]  Who would like to start?
[07:11.980 --> 07:12.660]  Who's prepared?
[07:14.500 --> 07:16.900]  I did, I did warn you a couple of days ago, so.
[07:19.280 --> 07:25.680]  I can, I can, uh, start because I did, uh, I did look through a bunch of the stories we covered, uh, over this past year.
[07:26.340 --> 07:35.740]  And I don't know if this is the most important one in the greater technological sphere, but it's one which, uh, meant rather a lot to me.
[07:36.320 --> 07:43.800]  Um, and it was the story about the end of an era in New York City as the final pay phones were removed.
[07:44.280 --> 07:57.800]  And then the update to that story, um, and this was back in May, the update to that story soon after where people were still finding pay phones everywhere that worked and the big announcement was basically nothing, uh, for no reason.
[07:57.940 --> 08:05.980]  I think, I think that big announcement was, um, uh, propaganda that was, uh, fed to the media and they bit.
[08:06.380 --> 08:13.120]  I think it had, I think LinkNYC had something to do with it, where basically they were saying, uh, I, I forget where I got that information from.
[08:13.340 --> 08:18.760]  Uh, someone told me, and I, I know that's not, uh, you know, extremely reliable source.
[08:18.980 --> 08:20.080]  Kyle, you know more about that?
[08:20.080 --> 08:30.440]  Well, now that you mention it, what I recall of it was that the, um, the servicing of existing ones was no longer going to be happening.
[08:30.440 --> 08:33.160]  Is that, is that how, uh, we covered it at the time?
[08:33.280 --> 08:33.700]  Do you remember?
[08:34.180 --> 08:38.340]  I think, I think we covered it with, with, uh, you know, a lot of doubt at the time.
[08:38.340 --> 08:38.400]  Right.
[08:38.480 --> 08:44.400]  The, I think it was Titan, some of the ad companies that were sort of more or less maintaining them as ashtrays.
[08:44.640 --> 08:44.800]  Yeah.
[08:44.960 --> 08:49.280]  Some of them definitely were pulled, uh, and, and on the west, uh, west side of Manhattan.
[08:49.360 --> 08:57.660]  I believe some were taken away, but people were sending us pictures as, uh, there's a pay phone in Rockefeller Center in the subway that people keep sending us pictures of.
[08:57.780 --> 08:59.540]  They, there's, and, and working too.
[08:59.880 --> 09:01.480]  So they do still exist.
[09:01.620 --> 09:02.480]  They're few and far between.
[09:02.640 --> 09:04.200]  I think there should be so many more of them.
[09:04.340 --> 09:19.260]  And, and, you know, the, the emergency situations that we've been experiencing in this state, uh, are, are one reason why, uh, every time there's, there's a hurricane or a storm or a blackout or something, people realize the importance of pay phones, landlines,
[09:19.460 --> 09:21.860]  things like that, things that are up when everything else is down.
[09:22.220 --> 09:24.840]  And yeah, you know, you don't make money off of it.
[09:25.180 --> 09:26.420]  The phone company has to make a profit.
[09:26.860 --> 09:28.120]  It shouldn't be about that.
[09:28.240 --> 09:33.560]  It should be about the public service and you may only need to use a pay phone once a year or less.
[09:34.080 --> 09:35.440]  It's good to know it's there.
[09:35.660 --> 09:41.140]  Imagine if, if every village had one pay phone that you knew where it was and it was kept working.
[09:41.680 --> 09:43.020]  I think that would be a good idea.
[09:44.160 --> 09:44.520]  Yeah.
[09:44.620 --> 09:47.900]  What really struck me about this story was the big deal they were making of it at the time.
[09:48.100 --> 09:53.560]  They were, they pulled out, um, pay phones, uh, let's see on seventh Avenue between 49th and 50th streets.
[09:53.720 --> 09:55.640]  They had press there, they made announcements.
[09:55.640 --> 09:56.480]  It was a whole to do.
[09:57.000 --> 10:04.920]  And, uh, after that, um, a site called Hellgate, uh, NYC, um, called themselves from a pay phone and, uh, reported on the results.
[10:05.080 --> 10:06.460]  Everything was still working.
[10:06.580 --> 10:09.000]  This was a pay phone, I think in a 14th street subway station.
[10:09.720 --> 10:13.980]  And, uh, of course there are, there are others still all over the place.
[10:14.620 --> 10:18.440]  And, uh, it, it just, it strikes me how it was a big deal.
[10:19.220 --> 10:21.060]  As you said, it was a PR move.
[10:21.180 --> 10:27.400]  It was an announcement that they were making to drum up interest in link NYC and all this stuff and like end of an era and everything.
[10:27.700 --> 10:33.160]  But, uh, you know, there was this disconnect from the reality of, um, the technical world out there.
[10:35.300 --> 10:35.820]  Yeah.
[10:35.980 --> 10:44.880]  I think it was also drumming up publicity for the exhibit at the museum of the city of New York that the city's last pay phone was being transported to.
[10:45.820 --> 10:57.700]  Um, yeah, this was definitely, I think, an interesting sort of situation where everybody kind of seized on a moment and it turned out not to be the case.
[10:57.700 --> 11:09.180]  But I think they were saying it was the last city sponsored phone that, you know, there could still be pay phones that were not municipal in the same way.
[11:09.400 --> 11:14.220]  I don't think the average person cares about that if it's municipal or run by a company.
[11:14.600 --> 11:22.360]  Well, the solution I think we kicked around was this should be something as a priority in some form or another, like one designated one that is maintained, et cetera, et cetera.
[11:22.460 --> 11:24.940]  And we're a year on and still nothing has emerged.
[11:25.180 --> 11:25.380]  Uh-huh.
[11:26.520 --> 11:29.360]  All right, Rob, did you have a prediction?
[11:29.360 --> 11:30.080]  A prediction.
[11:31.060 --> 11:34.800]  I'm going to predict that pay phones continue to stick around for 2023.
[11:34.980 --> 11:36.240]  We're still going to find them out there.
[11:36.440 --> 11:39.260]  We're not going to get rid of the last, uh, few stragglers.
[11:39.520 --> 11:51.620]  Um, there's still going to be, there's still going to be at least one working pay phone in the city, which, uh, I think is a prediction that not everyone will agree with, but, uh, maybe I, it's, it's what I think is the case.
[11:51.720 --> 11:56.180]  What's interesting is, uh, you know, uh, in 2600, the magazine that we all are affiliated with.
[11:56.440 --> 11:58.460]  Um, we've been printing pictures.
[11:58.460 --> 12:02.000]  It started, uh, way back, uh, eighties maybe.
[12:02.260 --> 12:03.220]  Was it that far back?
[12:03.520 --> 12:04.300]  Definitely the nineties.
[12:04.460 --> 12:08.740]  Uh, we just printed a foreign pay phone and then people started sending in pictures of foreign pay phones.
[12:08.940 --> 12:15.240]  And we have two, uh, color pages that are devoted to, um, um, pay phones for, for pay phones per page.
[12:15.840 --> 12:20.660]  And that is the feature that we still get the most mail on.
[12:20.860 --> 12:25.720]  People still send, even with all the pay phones being disconnected and dying.
[12:26.000 --> 12:30.540]  We still get all these, uh, pictures of pay phones that managed to exist somehow.
[12:30.680 --> 12:32.280]  So I hope you're right, Rob.
[12:32.400 --> 12:37.780]  I hope you're right that the pay phones continue to, uh, to exist or we'll have to fill two more pages with something else.
[12:38.100 --> 12:40.460]  Uh, but people are very enthusiastic about it.
[12:40.500 --> 12:42.640]  And some of those pay phones are real works of art as well.
[12:42.720 --> 12:48.860]  And it's, it's, it's fascinating to see them and people are enthralled by them and we need to have them around.
[12:48.980 --> 12:49.840]  They do serve a purpose.
[12:50.420 --> 12:50.860]  Okay.
[12:50.940 --> 12:55.760]  I'm going to do, um, uh, my, my reminiscing first and, and my prediction.
[12:55.860 --> 12:56.300]  I'll make it quick.
[12:56.560 --> 13:08.280]  Um, the story for this year for me, and I, I'm kind of embarrassed to say this because I don't want this to be the story, but the story is Elon Musk's taking over of Twitter.
[13:08.940 --> 13:12.660]  Now it's not, you know, for personality reasons, like he would want it to be.
[13:12.780 --> 13:15.340]  It's, it's basically about what it means to society.
[13:16.460 --> 13:35.700]  And, you know, I, I, looking at, um, uh, the level of discourse, um, uh, in the past few days, past few weeks, seeing it, seeing it go down so dramatically, uh, just looking at the, um, uh, the anti-vax propaganda that's, that's, that's out there, uh,
[13:35.780 --> 13:37.300]  is, is, is so disturbing.
[13:37.580 --> 13:48.100]  You know, basically health is being affected by the misinformation that is now being encouraged on Twitter, which was not being encouraged in, in, in years past.
[13:48.120 --> 13:56.520]  In fact, it was, it was being acted against because we're dealing with a health emergency and we still are, we still are dealing with this.
[13:56.640 --> 13:57.500]  It's not over yet.
[13:57.500 --> 14:01.980]  Look around, look at what is happening in other parts of the world and what is happening here as well.
[14:02.400 --> 14:05.000]  You know, it's, it's, it's not normal yet.
[14:05.120 --> 14:06.060]  It's improved.
[14:06.240 --> 14:06.400]  Sure.
[14:06.620 --> 14:13.720]  But the facts of, um, of medicine, the facts of science have not changed no matter how much you may want them to.
[14:14.720 --> 14:20.280]  Uh, and unfortunately what Elon Musk has done is allow these people who don't know what they're talking about.
[14:20.380 --> 14:28.960]  You know, I, I, I caught one guy, uh, basically spreading misinformation, uh, saying that the, the vaccines are causing more people to die than anything else.
[14:29.120 --> 14:32.480]  And he had a doctor in front of his name, making it seem really official.
[14:32.600 --> 14:35.440]  And all these people were retweeting him and saying, Oh yeah, you know what you're talking about.
[14:35.620 --> 14:36.400]  I looked him up.
[14:36.480 --> 14:38.280]  He's a doctorate in artificial intelligence.
[14:38.280 --> 14:38.960]  That's it.
[14:39.100 --> 14:46.300]  And there's nothing about medicine, knows nothing about diseases, but this kind of thing is, is, is basically being encouraged now.
[14:46.400 --> 14:58.960]  So you not only have, uh, liars and, and, and scum like Donald Trump Jr. and, and all the others that are out there, uh, just basically saying the most vile things and, um, uh, getting attention for that.
[14:59.400 --> 15:01.120]  Now you're being rewarded for it.
[15:01.200 --> 15:04.440]  You're being encouraged to be the lowest common denominator.
[15:05.020 --> 15:06.800]  That to me was the biggest story.
[15:06.940 --> 15:14.320]  The fact that something that, you know, it, it wasn't a great place to hang out Twitter, uh, but it, it, it served a purpose.
[15:14.740 --> 15:18.540]  And now it seems to be serving a really bad purpose.
[15:19.100 --> 15:20.840]  I don't think we should abandon it.
[15:20.920 --> 15:22.060]  I don't think we should run away.
[15:22.280 --> 15:23.460]  I think we should fight.
[15:23.660 --> 15:32.880]  We should, um, uh, you know, challenge these people at every opportunity, uh, and, and, and not let them get away with just spreading lies.
[15:33.240 --> 15:49.620]  And, and, and that goes, uh, that, that, that's true in any forum, whether it's here on the radio, uh, whether it's in your workplace, whether it's in the newspaper, wherever you see lies and, and, and misinformation being encouraged and spread, you keep in mind,
[15:49.800 --> 15:52.420]  a lot of people don't know the facts.
[15:52.660 --> 15:55.200]  They'll believe the people who sound the most authoritarian.
[15:55.960 --> 15:57.160]  It's a real danger.
[15:57.500 --> 15:59.580]  And that is how you lose democracy.
[16:00.140 --> 16:08.400]  That is how you spiral into, um, uh, literally very unhealthy, um, uh, place to live.
[16:09.120 --> 16:14.500]  And, um, it's just, it's just a really negative development, a really negative development.
[16:15.020 --> 16:16.500]  Now, you know, that could have been good.
[16:16.640 --> 16:17.180]  That could have been good.
[16:17.340 --> 16:20.240]  That came out of, um, uh, his takeover of the company.
[16:20.460 --> 16:25.240]  He could have, um, um, basically added features that people wanted.
[16:25.260 --> 16:27.080]  And in fact, you know, he is doing that to a degree.
[16:27.740 --> 16:43.320]  If he stuck to that, and, uh, I mean, just today there was this ridiculous, um, uh, picture that he posted where basically he's accusing anyone who believes in black lives matter, vaccines, uh, or literally anything.
[16:43.600 --> 16:44.740]  CNN was one of them.
[16:45.280 --> 16:47.320]  Uh, they are brainwashed.
[16:47.520 --> 16:55.000]  Those people are brainwashed and people who basically, uh, dismiss all of that are the enlightened ones.
[16:55.360 --> 16:59.980]  He's gone full right wing and, um, it's, it's really, it's really sad and disgusting.
[17:00.560 --> 17:10.060]  Um, my prediction for next year, you know, it's, um, it's kind of related.
[17:10.260 --> 17:18.840]  Like, like Rob's, it's kind of related because I think, um, I think truth is going to really be something that we're going to see as valuable.
[17:19.060 --> 17:20.040]  It's going to be redefined.
[17:20.360 --> 17:27.700]  It's going to be fought over, but it's going to be the theme, you know, what is true and what is a lie.
[17:27.860 --> 17:33.560]  We just had this guy elected, uh, in, um, uh, Long Island, uh, for Congress.
[17:34.060 --> 17:36.460]  Turns out he's lied about everything.
[17:36.600 --> 17:43.340]  He's lied about where he worked, where he went to school, how much money he has, you name it.
[17:43.480 --> 17:44.700]  He has lied about it.
[17:45.420 --> 17:47.080]  He hasn't said he lied.
[17:47.080 --> 17:50.000]  He said he embellished, which is a big difference.
[17:50.460 --> 17:57.060]  Um, basically trying to minimize it, but try that on a, on a job interview.
[17:57.100 --> 18:10.200]  If you go to a job interview and you, you lie about where you went to school and what your experience has been and just about every other detail imaginable, you think you're going to get the job when they find out?
[18:10.200 --> 18:10.960]  Probably not.
[18:11.900 --> 18:14.520]  And why should it be any different in this particular case?
[18:14.680 --> 18:28.360]  So I think things like this, as we see the Marjorie Taylor Greene's of the world start to get more power, um, we're going to realize that just because we say something is true and we know it's true, doesn't mean that it's true.
[18:28.620 --> 18:29.480]  It's 1984.
[18:30.320 --> 18:33.780]  You know, all somebody has to do is say, nope, I don't agree with that fact.
[18:34.140 --> 18:35.980]  I don't agree two plus two equals four.
[18:37.560 --> 18:38.660]  What are you going to do about it?
[18:39.240 --> 18:43.160]  I think 2023 is when we're going to have to do something about it.
[18:44.580 --> 18:47.560]  So a little bit dark, but that's how I see it.
[18:47.680 --> 18:48.120]  Who's next?
[18:51.020 --> 18:51.680]  Gila, go ahead.
[18:52.520 --> 19:03.980]  Although, because unfortunately, um, maybe not unfortunately, but Emmanuel, I also think that Elon Musk and what's been happening at Twitter has been, that's my biggest story of the year.
[19:04.080 --> 19:05.180]  You can't use my story.
[19:05.740 --> 19:06.880]  Well, I'm sorry.
[19:07.080 --> 19:08.400]  I've been thinking about it all day long.
[19:08.520 --> 19:10.040]  You said we needed to be prepared.
[19:10.140 --> 19:13.220]  And I've been thinking about this since you said we needed to be prepared.
[19:13.360 --> 19:15.800]  You cannot pull this kind of last minute switcheroo on me.
[19:15.900 --> 19:17.280]  So I'm stealing your story.
[19:17.420 --> 19:17.700]  I'm sorry.
[19:17.920 --> 19:19.620]  But you just said you're stealing my story.
[19:19.900 --> 19:21.660]  That means it's not an original idea.
[19:23.360 --> 19:26.560]  I'm approaching it from a slightly different perspective, though, if that helps.
[19:26.760 --> 19:27.200]  All right, go ahead.
[19:27.200 --> 19:35.040]  And I would like to begin by sharing a, an, an, uh, illustrative story.
[19:36.340 --> 19:36.820]  Illustrative.
[19:37.660 --> 19:50.460]  Anyway, do you guys remember there was a thing that would be, like, in a store sometimes and you could put a penny in it and it would, like, make circles around until it fell into the coin collector?
[19:51.960 --> 19:53.200]  Anybody know what I'm talking about?
[19:53.380 --> 19:55.540]  Yeah, it's like a donation bin or something.
[19:55.980 --> 19:56.020]  Yeah.
[19:56.020 --> 19:56.320]  Yeah.
[19:56.620 --> 19:56.760]  Yeah.
[19:57.260 --> 19:57.580]  Right?
[19:57.660 --> 19:59.640]  Like they were collecting money for the Shriners or something.
[19:59.920 --> 20:00.120]  Sure.
[20:00.420 --> 20:03.560]  I don't know why you couldn't just give it to them, why you had to do all that, but...
[20:03.560 --> 20:04.960]  Because it makes it exciting.
[20:04.960 --> 20:05.460]  It's fun.
[20:06.440 --> 20:12.040]  So you put the penny in and it would make very large, slow circles.
[20:12.520 --> 20:14.960]  And then it would get faster as it approached the center.
[20:15.860 --> 20:19.240]  And I sort of feel like Elon Musk and Twitter has been like that.
[20:19.420 --> 20:20.340]  We knew this was coming.
[20:20.480 --> 20:22.820]  He started talking about it for a while and he was trying to get rid of it.
[20:22.900 --> 20:25.240]  He was trying to get out of the promise he had made.
[20:25.240 --> 20:28.800]  And those are the really big circles at the outside.
[20:29.520 --> 20:37.720]  And as time has gone on and he had to go through with it and then he took it over and then he fired all the staff and the circles have been getting quicker and quicker and quicker.
[20:37.720 --> 21:01.220]  And I'm just waiting for the penny to drop because it has become such a mess with everything that has happened, with the firing of all the staff, with things he's doing that are skirting legality, certainly in the European Union, I believe, in terms of employment and privacy and things of that nature.
[21:02.460 --> 21:14.180]  As we have discussed, it is not a fun time to be someone who does not identify as a cis, straight, white, male with far-right politics on Twitter.
[21:16.220 --> 21:22.060]  And as a person who does not identify as those things, it's a scary time to be on Twitter.
[21:24.860 --> 21:36.280]  And it's interesting to see the Fediverse and watching people trying to get into more decentralized social media.
[21:36.700 --> 21:45.120]  And I was actually saying to Rob last night, can someone be the main character on Mastodon in the same way that someone can be the main character of the day on Twitter?
[21:53.100 --> 22:02.140]  And so my... that was my big story of the year, is watching Elon Musk melting down and melting down Twitter.
[22:02.900 --> 22:08.940]  My prediction for next year is that it's just going to keep getting worse.
[22:09.780 --> 22:14.200]  And it's not going to continue to exist in the same form for much longer.
[22:14.200 --> 22:19.580]  And I don't think he will be the owner and or the CEO, probably by June.
[22:19.740 --> 22:21.100]  Well, he's not supposed to be the CEO now.
[22:21.100 --> 22:23.220]  He got voted out by his own poll.
[22:23.240 --> 22:24.900]  Well, I know he got voted out.
[22:25.100 --> 22:29.880]  And then he said if he can find somebody crazy enough to take it over, like, he...
[22:29.880 --> 22:31.360]  That wasn't part of the vote, though.
[22:31.580 --> 22:32.460]  That wasn't part of the vote.
[22:32.780 --> 22:32.800]  No, it wasn't.
[22:32.800 --> 22:35.420]  He has to step down by his own rules.
[22:36.220 --> 22:39.300]  But it's also been interesting watching people...
[22:39.700 --> 22:41.340]  I saw somebody say something recently.
[22:41.880 --> 22:47.200]  You know, everybody said he was a genius, and I didn't know anything about electric cars, so I assumed he was a genius.
[22:47.200 --> 22:49.580]  And I didn't know anything about rockets, and I assumed he was a genius.
[22:49.760 --> 22:52.800]  And now he's talking about stuff I actually know about, and, oh, not a genius.
[22:53.620 --> 22:55.800]  I think that's true of many, many fields.
[22:56.060 --> 22:58.720]  Because, and, you know, we get this all the time.
[22:58.820 --> 23:01.080]  People will say, I know nothing about technology or computers.
[23:01.080 --> 23:02.000]  You guys know everything.
[23:02.380 --> 23:04.000]  And no, we don't know everything.
[23:04.300 --> 23:08.800]  You know, it staggers my imagination how little I know about some things.
[23:10.340 --> 23:19.120]  And it's basically, I think you just have to remember that somebody who has studied a particular field for a long time is going to know more about it.
[23:19.200 --> 23:23.300]  It's going to seem like magic to you, but they are a human being just like you.
[23:23.500 --> 23:29.480]  And I guarantee there's a subject that you each know the same amount of, and there's something that you know more than they know about.
[23:29.480 --> 23:45.840]  So that's incredible that you bring this up because, I mean, for me personally, that's the whole reason I got involved with and was interested in hacking and telephone systems and computers is because I didn't know anything.
[23:45.840 --> 23:47.460]  I didn't have as much access.
[23:47.460 --> 23:52.460]  I wasn't on the same academic trajectory, so to speak.
[23:52.460 --> 24:00.280]  I didn't have the acumen to study computer science the way other people can do readily now.
[24:00.480 --> 24:20.040]  And I just followed my curiosity and tried to soak up as much as anyone would ever teach me, whether it was something I was reading about, conversing or hearing about online, reading information, websites early on.
[24:20.040 --> 24:22.800]  And that is critical.
[24:23.000 --> 24:23.640]  That's why we're here.
[24:23.740 --> 24:25.160]  We're not here to be experts.
[24:25.460 --> 24:37.300]  And I think we get really lost in the news cycle and this sort of PR celebrity culture we have in this country.
[24:37.300 --> 24:38.920]  It does not apply.
[24:39.520 --> 24:49.880]  Technology should not be something that is full of just soul superstars.
[24:50.040 --> 24:53.800]  Here and there, and all the other people are just workers.
[24:54.120 --> 24:59.820]  You know, to emphasize that point, and we're not going to name names, but just think of some superstars.
[25:00.020 --> 25:01.120]  Have they let you down?
[25:01.300 --> 25:04.080]  Or have you basically rejected them at some point?
[25:04.700 --> 25:08.680]  Inevitably, that is what happens when you live in a world of superstars.
[25:08.860 --> 25:10.100]  They get torn down.
[25:10.100 --> 25:11.760]  They turn out to be human.
[25:12.220 --> 25:13.980]  And you're disillusioned by that.
[25:14.940 --> 25:17.380]  It's best to not even go down that road.
[25:17.380 --> 25:38.680]  The importance of what people are saying, what they're talking about, what we're doing in general in the discussion, what kinds of things are we addressing, how are we changing our approaches and the ways we think about technology technology and its effects on our society,
[25:38.940 --> 25:42.660]  on our families, on our workplaces, etc.
[25:43.680 --> 26:02.520]  And it just so happens it involves security and or software and different emerging things when we talk about it or when we encourage people to write and share what they've experienced or what they've seen.
[26:02.860 --> 26:07.900]  So that is the spirit that I think gets a little bit...
[26:07.900 --> 26:24.120]  It becomes either an assumption or it's like stating the obvious, but we should restate that we should not aspire to be telling others how things are and being the expert and, like, shooting down or just, like, barreling through organizations.
[26:24.160 --> 26:31.260]  Like, we should be there to grow and have a little bit more listening in the process.
[26:31.320 --> 26:33.240]  But, yeah.
[26:34.880 --> 26:40.520]  That's one thing that bothers me about the age we're in right now is that we've all been equalized.
[26:41.080 --> 26:55.340]  If you're reading a story in a newspaper online, people are given the opportunity to comment on it and their words mean just as much as the person who poured their life into researching the story and putting it into words and publishing it.
[26:55.480 --> 26:57.480]  You get somebody who knows nothing about it.
[26:57.580 --> 27:02.600]  Basically, they get to completely dismiss everything that that person has done in their research.
[27:02.840 --> 27:05.360]  And somehow that's considered to be fair.
[27:05.520 --> 27:06.520]  And it's not.
[27:06.880 --> 27:07.920]  It's not fair at all.
[27:07.920 --> 27:22.480]  Well, we need to be able to defer to people who have studied something more than we have, who have more knowledge in a particular field as they should when it's about something that we know something about.
[27:22.800 --> 27:23.620]  You know, it's...
[27:23.620 --> 27:25.700]  We seem to have lost that skill.
[27:26.000 --> 27:30.620]  And just beware of tech industry PR.
[27:31.080 --> 27:33.160]  It's pretty filthy.
[27:33.580 --> 27:35.520]  Yeah, like pay phones are gone when they're not.
[27:35.740 --> 27:35.940]  Yeah.
[27:36.500 --> 27:37.500]  All right, Kyle, you're next.
[27:37.920 --> 27:38.460]  Oh, gosh.
[27:38.840 --> 27:41.200]  So a story from 2022.
[27:43.140 --> 27:51.460]  Well, off the top of my head, and I know this is something I've repeated over and over again this year, and I can tie it into deep philosophical things.
[27:51.460 --> 27:52.300]  Don't be Elon Musk.
[27:52.420 --> 27:53.280]  Please, not Elon Musk.
[27:53.280 --> 27:54.900]  No, it's right to repair.
[27:55.140 --> 27:55.500]  Oh.
[27:55.880 --> 27:56.960]  I talked about it a lot.
[27:57.100 --> 27:58.280]  I guess I'll use the story.
[27:58.360 --> 28:00.760]  I didn't look back through as many stories as I would have liked to.
[28:00.760 --> 28:04.980]  But we talked about heated seats as a service.
[28:05.220 --> 28:15.760]  This broadly parallels so many software as a service and Web 2.0 things, what we're building on top of the infrastructure that we've come to know as the Internet.
[28:17.000 --> 28:22.980]  And kind of coming off the last topic, like, yeah, this grand networking experiment, socializing and networking.
[28:22.980 --> 28:28.060]  And we've realized, you know, zero trust is actually where we're headed.
[28:28.060 --> 28:43.320]  Like, it's maybe not ideal to have complete connectivity to everyone, because everyone is not necessarily going to have your interests necessarily in mind.
[28:43.320 --> 28:48.520]  And it can become chaotic very quickly.
[28:48.720 --> 29:03.740]  But my thought really behind right to repair in a deeper philosophical sense has to do with, in our Western society, the tendency towards monopoly.
[29:04.070 --> 29:10.340]  That is something that is a very real aspect of the capitalist system.
[29:10.340 --> 29:38.400]  And what we are experiencing is when firms consolidate for the sake of shareholders, instead of creating better products and care for the kinds of customers they're having, and built on the sort of disposable planned obsolescence, I mean, abject consumption for the sake of more transactions,
[29:38.400 --> 30:04.800]  instead of investing in our society deeply, and having a broader base of firms instead of single firms, that can then marshal their monopolistic tendencies to influence how oversight and regulation takes place on their empires, and in turn, on our ability to own things.
[30:05.360 --> 30:07.480]  So, like, if car companies...
[30:07.480 --> 30:10.380]  Like, right to repair was talked about a lot this year, but nothing happened.
[30:10.500 --> 30:14.160]  It hasn't really happened in New York yet, because there's been stiff resistance.
[30:14.420 --> 30:15.620]  And it keeps coming up.
[30:15.720 --> 30:17.180]  There keeps being stories about it.
[30:17.300 --> 30:29.400]  But the long and the short of it is, these are monopolistic firms that are not interested in opening up their systems as much as consumers would like.
[30:29.540 --> 30:39.200]  And, in fact, their business models have much more to do with predation of their customers' right to own things.
[30:39.200 --> 30:49.020]  And I think this is a critique that this year has been shown for what it is, which is predatory and not in the interest of people.
[30:49.160 --> 30:54.100]  Can I just illustrate what has happened with this, Bill, over the past year, to illustrate your point?
[30:54.240 --> 30:54.360]  Sure.
[30:54.360 --> 31:02.340]  The final version enjoyed rare bipartisan support, passing the State Assembly 147 to 2.
[31:02.760 --> 31:06.020]  And the Senate, 59 to 4.
[31:06.220 --> 31:07.420]  It's pretty powerful.
[31:07.860 --> 31:10.620]  Now, there's a big stipulation here, though.
[31:10.700 --> 31:15.120]  The bill doesn't include vehicles, home appliances, farm equipment, or medical devices.
[31:15.320 --> 31:18.540]  All the useful stuff you rely on and we need access to.
[31:18.540 --> 31:24.000]  Yeah, but that's why it got such huge support, because it didn't include these controversial things.
[31:24.000 --> 31:26.100]  That's a short list of the first things we want access to.
[31:26.100 --> 31:27.040]  It's not even controversial.
[31:27.040 --> 31:32.920]  It's just basically where the objections were loudest from those powerful entities.
[31:33.640 --> 31:37.680]  You can list a couple companies for every single one of those off the top of your head, I'm sure.
[31:37.880 --> 31:41.660]  But the people behind it were hoping to add these provisions later on.
[31:41.660 --> 31:46.060]  But getting the bill as written into law has proven to be difficult.
[31:46.480 --> 31:51.220]  The bill has been parked for months without any movement on the desk of New York Governor Kathy Hochul.
[31:51.660 --> 31:56.300]  I don't know what's going on up there, but obviously it's got the support.
[31:56.620 --> 31:57.880]  It should pass.
[31:58.280 --> 32:02.920]  Sitting on a desk, let's find it, let's get it signed, and let's improve it.
[32:02.920 --> 32:23.640]  Okay, and just as an example, on the flip side of that, think of Facebook in its heyday, when it was making all kinds of ad money, okay, and was politically valuable and propped up with a lot of money.
[32:23.640 --> 32:30.820]  They had things like the Open Compute Initiative, where they were giving away schematics for switching hardware.
[32:31.080 --> 32:33.320]  Like, if you can put this together, take it.
[32:33.440 --> 32:34.260]  You know, that kind of thing.
[32:34.780 --> 32:57.820]  Like, the imperative to open up hardware frameworks to contribute protocols to build on the network we've built, instead of just selling cheap versions of aspects of the service, it is possible.
[32:57.820 --> 33:16.860]  There have been movements and precedents towards this that, you know, whatever these firms need, like, they clearly are mostly interested in profit and not necessarily fixing some of the consequences of the technologies that are being put forth.
[33:16.860 --> 33:25.840]  And I just think my prediction going forward is, what are we doing at this level of production?
[33:25.840 --> 33:32.020]  And what are we doing with the development capabilities that we have?
[33:32.260 --> 33:43.840]  And the intellectual properties, the ideas that we create and care for in this country are valuable.
[33:43.840 --> 33:51.020]  And this goes right down to photolithography and all the semiconductor stuff that's been talked about as well.
[33:51.160 --> 34:16.980]  And what we're building upon in the future, you know, we need to have a very clear-eyed idea of the consequences of, you know, what and how we build those things, whether they're open or, you know, where we place our emphasis in technological advances going forward.
[34:17.100 --> 34:17.940]  What's the prediction?
[34:18.240 --> 34:25.940]  The prediction is that it will be sort of a continuation of not trusting people.
[34:25.940 --> 34:32.820]  You know, this idea that we were all networked and it was all great, that we're all, like, socially connected and that's better for society.
[34:33.280 --> 34:33.940]  No, no.
[34:34.200 --> 34:34.640]  It's...
[34:34.640 --> 34:37.300]  This is now, like, maximum...
[34:38.420 --> 34:48.060]  Or, like, maximum lack of trust, zero trust models and the like, along with this unfreeing of the internet, right?
[34:48.940 --> 34:55.220]  We're closing off, in many ways, networks to... you pick a part of the world.
[34:56.020 --> 35:02.080]  We're tiering service levels with, like, net neutrality.
[35:02.380 --> 35:04.080]  We don't even talk about that anymore.
[35:04.100 --> 35:07.400]  I can't even talk to people on instant messaging anymore because everyone's using a different system.
[35:07.440 --> 35:14.260]  We're fragmenting because platforms are becoming radicalized in one sense and there's churn and people leaving and going.
[35:14.260 --> 35:15.580]  There's monetization.
[35:15.780 --> 35:20.300]  Like, how many people do you know now that have blogs that are... they charge independently?
[35:20.360 --> 35:21.200]  That's great.
[35:21.600 --> 35:26.360]  That was very much a direction we've talked about at home.
[35:26.360 --> 35:28.760]  Let Kyle finish this point, but first, like and subscribe.
[35:29.120 --> 35:31.680]  And please, won't you visit our donation page?
[35:31.960 --> 35:40.420]  You know, but that is a new model, but it's hard because everyone is, in the legacy sense, on this everything is free but ad-powered.
[35:40.420 --> 35:51.140]  Well, yeah, so we're in that transitional period again about what are we going to do with our ability to create technology?
[35:51.380 --> 36:00.020]  Because whether it's a network or a lithographic design, like, we care about where it goes and how it's used now in a much more visceral sense.
[36:00.020 --> 36:11.740]  So my prediction is information is going to become ever more valuable and contested in what is, I would say, a theater of warfare.
[36:12.480 --> 36:13.360]  Okay, good.
[36:13.540 --> 36:25.720]  I was kidding just now about the donation page, but I'm not kidding when I say you should visit WBAI's donation page, because your contributions are what make this radio show and this radio station possible.
[36:25.880 --> 36:33.000]  So go to give2wbai.org, give the number 2, wbai.org, donate whatever you can.
[36:33.000 --> 36:38.480]  It's the end of the year, so there's all kinds of tax reasons why a nice donation would make sense.
[36:38.620 --> 36:42.640]  You can also call 212-209-2950, assuming there are people there.
[36:42.640 --> 36:46.900]  You can talk in person and get all kinds of amazing thank you gifts.
[36:47.040 --> 37:01.420]  The biggest thank you gift of all is 99.5 FM in New York City, continuing to broadcast at full power, reaching, I believe, four states at this point, and, of course, the entire world over WBAI.org.
[37:01.880 --> 37:02.960]  This is Off the Hook.
[37:03.060 --> 37:04.340]  We talk about technology.
[37:04.340 --> 37:05.400]  We talk about hacking.
[37:05.620 --> 37:08.820]  We talk about privacy and all kinds of security abuses.
[37:08.820 --> 37:13.020]  And tonight we are talking about the end of the year, the beginning of the new one.
[37:13.360 --> 37:21.720]  And, Alex, it is now your turn to give your idea of the most important story of 2022 and a prediction for 2023.
[37:23.520 --> 37:24.060]  Sure.
[37:24.060 --> 37:34.680]  I'm going to carry on the theme of the evening, which is, I think, about implosions and collapses and various calamities like that.
[37:34.680 --> 37:50.320]  And I'm going to say that one of the most interesting stories of the year for me happened very recently in November, and that was the collapse of FTX, the cryptocurrency exchange, that we had discussed at some length here on Off the Hook, also on Overtime.
[37:50.420 --> 37:53.500]  I think we devoted quite a bit of time to that.
[37:53.500 --> 38:05.200]  And I think it's so fascinating to see that collapse so quickly because there are so many lessons to be learned from the demise of FTX.
[38:05.220 --> 38:14.900]  And I think we learned really clearly that governance matters in an internal cryptocurrency platform like that.
[38:15.040 --> 38:26.840]  You know, governance and controls over who can do what with what currency and how money is changing hands and moving around and how that's logged and audited.
[38:27.000 --> 38:28.280]  That really, really matters.
[38:28.280 --> 38:36.080]  And I think that we also learned that transparency is key when it comes to how governance mechanisms work.
[38:36.640 --> 38:48.360]  And I also think a really, really important lesson that we learned from the collapse of FTX is that there is no such thing as smart money.
[38:48.920 --> 38:59.800]  You cannot follow the investors that have been putting money in, like Sequoia and all of these others that, you know, you would ordinarily say, hey, these are the smart guys.
[38:59.940 --> 39:00.620]  They know what they're doing.
[39:00.760 --> 39:02.000]  They're investing in these platforms.
[39:02.180 --> 39:03.120]  They're investing in these companies.
[39:03.600 --> 39:06.800]  Therefore, they must have done their due diligence and they must have...
[39:06.800 --> 39:08.500]  They must know that this is a good thing.
[39:08.500 --> 39:09.800]  So I'm going to pile on.
[39:09.800 --> 39:21.400]  And that indicates some kind of trustworthiness or at least some kind of maturity, I think, with respect to whatever the product or where the company is.
[39:21.660 --> 39:24.460]  You know, as we saw with FTX, that just really isn't the case.
[39:24.580 --> 39:27.880]  There's no such thing as following the smart money anymore.
[39:28.960 --> 39:35.400]  And I'll jump right into my predictions, unless anybody has anything else to add about FTX.
[39:35.400 --> 39:37.900]  Well, you know, I think you made some really good points there.
[39:38.200 --> 39:46.120]  And just watching Bankman-Fried as he's making his way into court or prison or whatever fate holds for him.
[39:46.960 --> 39:55.120]  I just see a kid who basically got way too much power and just let it run away.
[39:55.800 --> 39:59.100]  Billions and billions of dollars and the Playboy lifestyle and all that.
[39:59.640 --> 40:01.080]  It never should have happened.
[40:01.200 --> 40:02.160]  Never should have happened.
[40:02.160 --> 40:08.440]  And, you know, I see how he now realizes how over his head he actually was.
[40:08.620 --> 40:13.020]  I wonder how many other people are out there right now who have way too much power.
[40:13.020 --> 40:20.040]  And that when they finally lose control, so many innocent people wind up paying for their mistakes.
[40:20.540 --> 40:21.720]  You know, it's...
[40:21.720 --> 40:24.020]  Do you have any opinion on what should happen to him?
[40:26.140 --> 40:30.420]  I mean, well, I don't want to, you know, preempt a trial here.
[40:31.300 --> 40:33.760]  And, you know, there's still a lot of facts that are shaking out.
[40:33.880 --> 40:36.320]  There's a lot going on with the creditor situation.
[40:36.360 --> 40:38.720]  So I don't want to make any predictions there.
[40:38.800 --> 40:44.900]  But I will, you know, sort of comment on the, you know, the facts of what have happened in recent weeks.
[40:44.900 --> 40:54.820]  Or rather, really, within the last week or so, which is that, you know, SPF agreed to be extradited to the United States and actually received bail.
[40:54.940 --> 40:56.940]  So he's out in California on bail.
[40:57.660 --> 41:03.980]  But he's going to be going to trial in the Southern District of New York at some point in 2023.
[41:03.980 --> 41:12.040]  And probably facing the same cadre of prosecutors that our dear friend Virgil Griffith had faced in his trial.
[41:12.360 --> 41:16.220]  And this is, you know, this is a very, very tough place to go to trial.
[41:16.360 --> 41:21.840]  There are extraordinarily talented lawyers in the Southern District of New York and the U.S.
[41:22.140 --> 41:22.900]  Attorney's Office there.
[41:23.340 --> 41:31.180]  And what I thought was really interesting, too, is that, you know, there are very close people connected to SPF.
[41:31.180 --> 41:38.380]  You know, I think it was the woman who ran Alameda Research and I believe one of his closest confidants had already pleaded guilty.
[41:38.920 --> 41:39.760]  And the U.S.
[41:40.120 --> 41:48.760]  Attorney's Office had not allowed that fact to come out to the public while SPF was weighing whether or not to agree to extradition.
[41:49.840 --> 41:57.720]  And because they, obviously, if we knew that people were collaborating with the government, he would have been less likely to agree to extradition and would have fought that over in the Bahamas.
[41:57.760 --> 41:59.700]  Can you plead guilty secretly, though?
[41:59.700 --> 42:03.200]  Oh, yes, they can.
[42:03.460 --> 42:03.580]  Yeah.
[42:04.300 --> 42:04.440]  Yeah.
[42:04.760 --> 42:04.920]  Yeah.
[42:05.260 --> 42:12.520]  Or they can agree to plead guilty, you know, and the plea doesn't have to happen in court until a certain period of time.
[42:12.740 --> 42:20.980]  But the fact that they had agreed to plead guilty was not released to the public while SPF was weighing whether or not to agree to extradition.
[42:21.280 --> 42:21.580]  Alex?
[42:22.540 --> 42:23.380]  Yes, go ahead.
[42:23.380 --> 42:33.120]  Is that part of his responsibility to weigh the likelihood of people he interacted with in his dealings?
[42:33.560 --> 42:39.520]  Like, that's a possibility he has to judge that possibly they've already pled guilty.
[42:40.000 --> 42:45.800]  That's partially why they don't reveal that, because they want his judgment to be the fulcrum of that?
[42:46.680 --> 42:47.120]  Yeah.
[42:47.380 --> 42:47.380]  Yeah.
[42:47.380 --> 42:52.840]  I mean, it definitely is something that he has to factor into, whatever calculus is going on in his head, right?
[42:52.840 --> 42:57.800]  I mean, this is the classic prisoner's dilemma, quite literally.
[42:58.120 --> 42:58.200]  Yeah.
[42:58.200 --> 43:02.420]  You know, where you don't know who's collaborating and who's getting the benefit of collaboration.
[43:02.820 --> 43:08.100]  And, you know, the idea, I guess in the process, still, I'm not a game theory expert, right?
[43:08.140 --> 43:17.440]  I think would be for everybody to not cooperate would, I think, drive the best—would drive the greatest benefits to all of those parties, right?
[43:17.840 --> 43:23.720]  But if you are a collaborator, if you do collaborate with the government, you're the first one to do it, then you get the greatest benefit, right?
[43:24.320 --> 43:29.040]  I think the parties we should be concerned about are all the parties that lost so much money.
[43:29.220 --> 43:30.200]  What happens to them?
[43:30.300 --> 43:31.940]  They're just out of luck forever?
[43:32.440 --> 43:33.380]  No, no, no.
[43:33.460 --> 43:34.460]  They're creditors.
[43:34.640 --> 43:52.620]  And John Ray III, who is now the CEO who's taken over FTX, and he's in charge of winding up its affairs and trying to get access to all of the funds that were misappropriated or converted and spread around to various places.
[43:52.620 --> 43:54.280]  And you think about what happened.
[43:54.400 --> 43:56.080]  I mean, I think there's going to be substantial fallout.
[43:56.200 --> 43:58.180]  This is part of my predictions here.
[43:58.340 --> 44:05.920]  But the fallout from FTX, you can kind of move right into this, I think, quite naturally, is going to be really, really substantial.
[44:06.040 --> 44:24.160]  And I think there are going to be political ramifications of this on both sides of the aisle because these creditors, and John Ray III, who's in charge of making sure the creditors get what's due to them, is being very aggressive when it comes to trying to wind back this money.
[44:24.480 --> 44:41.780]  And looking at what went out of that exchange, I think about 90 days prior to the declaration of bankruptcy in November, is going to be really, really interesting, especially because that encompasses the time period leading up to the midterm elections.
[44:41.780 --> 44:58.780]  And we know that SBF and some of his closest confidants at FTX had sent a gigantic amount of money over to the Democrats and had funded a huge number of Democrats' political campaigns ahead of the midterm elections.
[44:58.780 --> 45:00.500]  But let's be clear here.
[45:00.500 --> 45:02.060]  It wasn't just the Democrats.
[45:02.580 --> 45:05.880]  It was also the Republicans.
[45:06.100 --> 45:13.780]  The Republicans received, I think, I don't remember exactly, but I think it was close to $20 million worth of funds coming from FTX.
[45:13.880 --> 45:15.500]  So that's no insubstantial amount either.
[45:15.500 --> 45:20.060]  Was there any indication that either Democrats or Republicans knew the source of this?
[45:20.760 --> 45:22.000]  Oh, they knew the source.
[45:22.040 --> 45:24.160]  Yeah, I mean, it was coming from FTX.
[45:24.160 --> 45:41.100]  I don't know exactly how they did it, but one of the charges that the Southern District has levied against SBF, in addition to essentially financial fraud, wire fraud, is, interestingly enough, a violation of campaign finance laws.
[45:41.580 --> 45:48.020]  By donating all of this money in excess of what he was allowed to donate by law.
[45:48.160 --> 45:52.720]  But did the people he was donating to know that he was violating the law by doing that?
[45:52.760 --> 45:53.540]  That's my question.
[45:54.160 --> 45:55.360]  Well, that I'm not sure.
[45:55.560 --> 46:02.600]  That I don't think... I think it would be hard for them to know that unless they understood the mechanisms by which he was getting them the money.
[46:02.720 --> 46:16.960]  So I don't think that will... I don't think that they're going to allege some kind of campaign finance crime against any of the members of Congress or the sitting politicians or candidates who had received these funds.
[46:17.000 --> 46:18.900]  I think that would be highly unusual.
[46:18.900 --> 46:30.000]  But what's interesting is, once they realized that the money came from FTX and it might be tainted, instead of returning it to FTX, they donated it.
[46:30.140 --> 46:33.240]  A lot of these candidates had donated it to various causes.
[46:33.720 --> 46:41.620]  And John Ray III had said that, well, that's not going to stop them from seeking to enforce their creditors' rights here.
[46:41.620 --> 46:52.880]  That even if they donated these funds to some kind of charity, some charity forward on in the chain, they're going to then ask for the money back from whatever that charity is.
[46:53.280 --> 46:57.860]  Because the money ultimately did not belong to the candidates or the politicians that received it.
[46:58.140 --> 47:01.440]  If they pushed it on, they didn't actually have the right to do that.
[47:01.440 --> 47:04.460]  So they're going to try to unwind all of these transactions.
[47:04.460 --> 47:09.640]  It's going to be very interesting to see where that money has gone.
[47:10.200 --> 47:22.620]  But I think part of my predictions here, though, is that we're going to see more of a collapse of, I think, other cryptocurrency exchanges and coins and ventures.
[47:22.620 --> 47:34.180]  And part of that, Emmanuel, is because all of these guys were so highly leveraged with each other that the collapse of FTX is going to have this domino effect or this cascading effect.
[47:34.300 --> 47:42.140]  And I think because of that, we're going to see more and more breaches and thefts of, more and more breaches of exchanges and thefts of digital assets.
[47:42.340 --> 47:49.440]  And this crosses over directly with what we care about on this show, which are cybersecurity issues and hacking issues.
[47:49.440 --> 48:06.180]  I think we're going to see that a lot of these exchanges and platforms, how we're operating with insufficient security controls in place, that there may be issues with the smart contract code that underlies a lot of these particular assets.
[48:06.540 --> 48:20.280]  But I think, you know, and here's where, you know, and I've said this before directly on our show, or maybe it was overtime, but I think, I'll say it again, I think emerging from this rubble are going to be projects that could be considered, you know,
[48:20.400 --> 48:24.520]  relatively to be on more terra firma, to speak.
[48:24.820 --> 48:46.360]  And I think that, you know, as you see a lot of the hype and a lot of this excessive money draining away from the cryptocurrency platforms and these nascent blockchain ventures, I think we're going to see more and more kind of mundane projects that actually have,
[48:46.400 --> 48:48.660]  you know, real utility to people's lives.
[48:48.800 --> 48:57.880]  I think we're going to see even things like NFTs begin to have more actual utility in people's lives other than just some kind of speculative investment.
[48:57.880 --> 49:04.760]  I think we're going to see more innovative uses of smart contracts, and we're going to see that type of code really evolve.
[49:04.960 --> 49:20.560]  And I think that, you know, quite frankly, you know, because Ethereum is at the core of how smart contracts have been operating, and that even though it's a currency, it's almost an ancillary form of what the Ethereum Foundation is interested in.
[49:20.560 --> 49:27.160]  I think Ethereum and the Ethereum name service are really going to be at the core of a lot of these developments in 2023.
[49:27.160 --> 49:35.400]  So I think it's going to get worse, but I think in the latter half of 2023, we're going to start to see things, you know, really get better.
[49:36.000 --> 49:36.140]  Okay.
[49:36.260 --> 49:36.940]  Interesting prediction.
[49:37.060 --> 49:38.000]  We're going to hold you to that.
[49:38.620 --> 49:39.860]  We're in our last two minutes.
[49:39.960 --> 49:41.220]  Rob, it looked like you might have something to say.
[49:41.300 --> 49:42.460]  Did you have something to add?
[49:45.120 --> 49:59.840]  Earlier today, I was waiting a very interesting discussion on Reddit, which kind of ties all this together, what Alex was saying, and the Elon Musk situation, because, and I preface this with, I don't know a lot about the stock market and things like that,
[49:59.920 --> 50:07.440]  but I was reading this discussion about how Tesla's at a low for the year, and it was driven by Elon's antics on Twitter.
[50:07.620 --> 50:22.740]  But a lot of people are looking at this as the price of Tesla correcting itself and just becoming in line with it's another car manufacturer, now that it's not fueled by the whole mystique of, oh, there's this genius in charge with all these ideas and all this hype.
[50:23.360 --> 50:40.900]  Now that it's been revealed that, basically, it's a car company led by this person who is now acting in this manner, like, the Tesla is now losing the hype of being the Tesla and becoming just a car that's got to be judged alongside all the other ones out there now,
[50:41.020 --> 50:45.680]  now that all the other car manufacturers are in the electric vehicle space and things like that.
[50:45.820 --> 50:46.500]  So, yeah.
[50:46.740 --> 50:47.220]  Okay.
[50:47.740 --> 50:49.680]  Well, that's going to have to be the last word for now.
[50:49.840 --> 51:02.000]  But it's not the last word tonight because we are continuing the conversation over on Overtime, which you can get to by going to Channel 2600 on YouTube or clicking on the link on top of the 2600.com webpage.
[51:02.800 --> 51:11.760]  Again, let me remind people to support WBAI by going to give to WBAI.org or calling 212-209-2950.
[51:12.420 --> 51:17.920]  Remember, none of this conversation will be possible without a radio station to transmit it all over the place.
[51:18.180 --> 51:27.780]  And there are so many other worthwhile programs that are broadcast over 99.5 FM in the course of a typical week.
[51:31.180 --> 51:31.540]  All right.
[51:31.620 --> 51:32.680]  That's going to do it for us here.
[51:32.880 --> 51:37.440]  We are not on next week, but we are on Overtime in just a few minutes, 8 o'clock, Channel 2600 on YouTube.
[51:39.140 --> 51:39.880]  We'll see you soon.
[51:39.880 --> 51:53.580]  Sharper than the straight razor shave Cooler than the steel to put the blade to a point It's worldwide currency, they wishing well coins It's high fidelity bang, they speak a leak noise And now that's Chuck D level Y'all at fatigue level Have guns, do travel,
[51:53.740 --> 52:15.680]  spread love, beat devils Walk short and carry the chrome magnum Size glove and smash in the sharp rainy fragment Free fire, spit smoke, blow away ashes Smarten up dumbass This ain't bum class Atmosphere barf that You can't touch that Real, forever real They can hate it or love that It's bigger than hip-hop Hypes and wicked government Brooklyn a war winnin' and I'll give a f*** in this You winnin'
[52:15.740 --> 52:37.800]  for the most suckarest Dumbiest No gettin' lovin' and some real riders up in this biatch Dudes more bitch than bitch Reeboks They arms King B-Ocks The base 7-3-Ocks These dudes doped in this detox So you ain't clean up your act You act like crack, ha I've been out loud and I will never be that I got the right and exact And a trap for the rats The liars and the saps The posers and the hacks Lay out
[52:37.800 --> 52:56.280]  my mainline The spine go snap Bay Van-Glorious Fantasmagoria Crack Pandoria On each and every all of ya Whoever you can call them You better start callin' em Then call a car in a white jay for all of ya's Greatest ain't greater than Strongest ain't strong enough Biggest ain't bigger than a real small portion Another legendary trilogy,
[52:56.360 --> 52:57.600]  top-ranked officer.
[52:57.740 --> 53:00.160]  Get lost, big boss, this boss, boss, yeah.
[53:00.340 --> 53:02.940]  Chip on your shoulder, I'ma knock it right off your bae.
[53:03.280 --> 53:05.040]  Torpedo, blast, smash the ego.
[53:05.360 --> 53:07.560]  Sniper on the range, sniper banged off, reload.
[53:08.080 --> 53:10.080]  RPG to get free, power people.
[53:10.280 --> 53:10.520]  Blop!
[53:10.740 --> 53:12.520]  One clip and they evil done with.
[53:12.660 --> 53:15.040]  Fuckin' like they want trouble and I really want sh**.
[53:15.280 --> 53:17.600]  They probably want a trick like a skier on the strip.
[53:17.780 --> 53:19.640]  Get money in your midst, snuff a p**k.
[53:19.740 --> 53:25.040]  Kill a pimp, loud mouth rhetoricals and they said, you can talk till you die and you ain't said dick.
[53:25.040 --> 53:27.880]  Unless you repeatin' the phrase of Y'all Peasius.
[53:28.240 --> 53:30.400]  Seventeenth verse of the twenty-fifth Ezekiel.
[53:30.560 --> 53:33.660]  Let us pray for the souls of these suckers.
[53:34.060 --> 53:35.320]  I am back, mother f*****g.
[53:35.460 --> 53:36.700]  Yeah, January, February.
[53:37.040 --> 53:37.960]  Marchin' with the people.
[53:38.220 --> 53:38.600]  April.
[53:38.820 --> 53:39.980]  May I have a black star?
[53:40.160 --> 53:41.340]  Sequel to the black caucus.
[53:41.460 --> 53:42.920]  June, July, the black August.
[53:43.120 --> 53:45.420]  September to October, you find me where black thought is.
[53:45.640 --> 53:47.120]  November when we come for that office.
[53:47.260 --> 53:47.960]  The black potus.
[53:48.080 --> 53:49.620]  Black lotus flower fall in December.
[53:49.780 --> 53:50.620]  Go ask the weatherman.
[53:50.920 --> 53:51.940]  Colder than the winter wind.
[53:52.100 --> 53:53.280]  Day after the 17th.
[53:53.280 --> 53:55.680]  We sell them with an EIC birthday.
[53:55.880 --> 53:56.840]  Brooklyn, New York City.
[53:56.900 --> 53:58.360]  That's the scene of my birthplace.
[53:58.580 --> 54:00.780]  I'm so entoppin' us boppin' from anthropologists.
[54:00.920 --> 54:03.320]  Frolicking with the populace, topplin' all the charlatans.
[54:03.620 --> 54:08.280]  My songs acknowledge the heroes that need honor and the promise we demolishin' all confederate monuments.
[54:08.580 --> 54:10.960]  I'm noticin' how these Nazis become congressmen.
[54:11.080 --> 54:13.380]  It's orphans and moccasins away fakin' and collagen.
[54:13.780 --> 54:16.040]  It doesn't matter if these scholars have got doctorates.
[54:16.100 --> 54:19.440]  I hide it behind fake names like Tommy Robinson abominum.
[54:19.520 --> 54:20.840]  Plus the sleeve is monogram.
[54:20.980 --> 54:23.200]  If I die, I come back and perform as a hologram.
[54:23.280 --> 54:25.120]  Can't tell if it's a boy or a girl.
[54:25.200 --> 54:25.780]  Get a sonogram.
[54:26.080 --> 54:28.500]  My name is floatin' up and down the ab like dollar vans.
[54:28.860 --> 54:29.220]  Fam.
[54:29.600 --> 54:30.800]  My syrup is maple leaf.
[54:30.880 --> 54:32.120]  Eatin' falafo in Morocco.
[54:32.140 --> 54:33.360]  I'm packin' this tray of cheese.
[54:33.540 --> 54:35.980]  And the pipers are passin' and stabin' these stakin' seeds.
[54:36.080 --> 54:37.140]  They start from makin' them bleed.
[54:37.300 --> 54:38.340]  I happen to make believe.
[54:38.340 --> 54:40.980]  I come from a place of peace but they only respect the violence.
[54:41.540 --> 54:43.220]  You get arrested for domestic solace.
[54:43.580 --> 54:44.640]  Rappers is vampires.
[54:44.780 --> 54:45.320]  We the likens.
[54:45.380 --> 54:46.080]  Even the vikers.
[54:46.200 --> 54:48.380]  No match against attacks from the conqueror lions.
[54:48.500 --> 54:50.360]  Bring it together like a hyphen to flyers.
[54:50.400 --> 54:51.120]  Testin' my patience.
[54:51.260 --> 54:53.560]  Never stop it cause my parents had never had a vacation.
[54:54.220 --> 54:54.620]  Relocatin'.
[54:54.620 --> 54:56.160]  Lookin' at places along the ocean.
[54:56.260 --> 54:57.460]  Smokin' trees under trees.
[54:57.600 --> 54:59.300]  The shadiest rap emotic calamities.
[54:59.300 --> 55:00.440]  Flash catastrophe.
[55:00.800 --> 55:01.800]  Add an apostrophe.
[55:02.000 --> 55:03.820]  Your whole philosophy is mediocrity.
[55:03.960 --> 55:04.460]  Atrocities.
[55:04.520 --> 55:06.300]  Committed in the name of owning property.
[55:06.540 --> 55:07.220]  Monopolies.
[55:07.420 --> 55:08.700]  That's my hypothesis.
[55:09.680 --> 55:10.260]  Amen.
[55:10.260 --> 55:24.060]  A little pause.
[00:00.000 --> 00:02.080]  And a very warm welcome to everybody.
[00:02.360 --> 00:04.860]  This is Off The Hook Overtime.
[00:05.420 --> 00:10.120]  And we are now on YouTube, broadcasting over the internet.
[00:11.160 --> 00:12.460]  Kyle, I see you've made it safely.
[00:12.860 --> 00:14.740]  Yeah, I'm just going to check that level.
[00:15.660 --> 00:17.760]  Check whatever levels you need to check.
[00:18.200 --> 00:23.700]  While I greet Rob and Gila, who hopefully have made it in Skypeland into Overtime.
[00:24.520 --> 00:25.400]  We have indeed.
[00:25.580 --> 00:26.060]  We have indeed.
[00:26.180 --> 00:26.580]  We are here.
[00:26.700 --> 00:26.900]  Good.
[00:26.980 --> 00:27.180]  Okay.
[00:27.240 --> 00:28.540]  And I hear us on YouTube.
[00:28.540 --> 00:29.540]  We don't sound bad.
[00:29.540 --> 00:29.540]  Good.
[00:29.740 --> 00:30.180]  Okay.
[00:30.460 --> 00:31.460]  That doesn't happen often.
[00:31.660 --> 00:32.480]  So that's good.
[00:32.580 --> 00:34.840]  And Alex is joining us now from Florida?
[00:35.940 --> 00:37.100]  I am indeed here.
[00:37.360 --> 00:37.720]  All right.
[00:37.860 --> 00:38.160]  Wow.
[00:38.300 --> 00:39.440]  That's remarkably smooth.
[00:40.200 --> 00:41.060]  Good conversation.
[00:41.060 --> 00:41.660]  Good predictions.
[00:41.840 --> 00:43.800]  We'll see how many of them come true.
[00:44.780 --> 00:45.680]  Looking forward to it.
[00:46.940 --> 00:47.960]  Yeah, very interesting.
[00:48.860 --> 00:53.120]  Just the conversation got me thinking of other things that went on.
[00:53.560 --> 00:54.800]  Virgil's case, for instance.
[00:54.800 --> 01:03.440]  And the sort of parallels and distinctions between that story and other cryptocurrency, NFT-related things.
[01:03.700 --> 01:03.920]  Yeah.
[01:04.060 --> 01:04.680]  It's fascinating.
[01:04.820 --> 01:05.320]  A lot of parallels.
[01:05.400 --> 01:06.080]  I forgot about some of that.
[01:06.640 --> 01:09.740]  Except that Virgil didn't steal billions of dollars from somebody.
[01:09.860 --> 01:11.140]  But there's that.
[01:11.280 --> 01:16.140]  No, but it was, you know, what information and who knows things.
[01:16.140 --> 01:17.800]  I saw a lot of points.
[01:17.800 --> 01:25.320]  Well, it's the same hostility and suspicion that I think we're going to see come out of people who are smart, who know things, and maybe don't know everything.
[01:25.740 --> 01:28.060]  But I think you're going to see a lot of that hostility coming out.
[01:28.100 --> 01:34.940]  You know, with good reason in this case, if billions of dollars are lost, not so much good reason in Virgil's case.
[01:36.480 --> 01:38.760]  Yeah, I completely agree.
[01:38.940 --> 01:45.880]  I mean, when you look at the merits and the demerits of each individual case, you begin to see, wow, you know.
[01:46.400 --> 01:50.320]  In Virgil's case, you've got to remember, it was sliced.
[01:50.700 --> 01:53.180]  The government's case was sliced so thinly.
[01:53.460 --> 02:03.180]  Because remember, they actually stipulated that everything that Virgil said while he was over in North Korea did not actually help the government of North Korea.
[02:03.180 --> 02:11.440]  That it didn't give them any knowledge that they didn't already have with respect to cryptocurrency, blockchain, money laundering, sanctions, evasion, etc.
[02:12.620 --> 02:21.940]  However, there were individuals that were in the audience that may have learned something from what Virgil had said that they didn't know before.
[02:22.220 --> 02:25.960]  And that, therefore, that was some kind of transfer of knowledge.
[02:26.200 --> 02:30.660]  That's the risk we take every week on the radio, that somebody might learn something that didn't know something before.
[02:31.020 --> 02:33.120]  It doesn't happen often, but sometimes it can happen.
[02:33.180 --> 02:43.600]  I think it's also the space of, yes, people that are smart knowing things, and then what are we doing with that information?
[02:43.920 --> 03:12.940]  And I think that some of this is the, how shall I say, the intersection or collision of national priorities, industry, what is the point of all of everything, and what we're doing in various parts of the world and national priorities with, you know, people who know things and move and live amongst those competing priorities and aren't really,
[03:12.940 --> 03:17.140]  you know, thinking necessarily in the same terms.
[03:17.140 --> 03:38.880]  And having those discussions align in any way is where I think a lot of the disconnect has occurred with communities of smart individuals wanting to share and think the best of being networked and growing and pushing technology with the realities, the de facto world we're operating in.
[03:38.880 --> 03:53.880]  Yeah, it's interesting when you say that, people who want to share, I notice in our legal system, no offense, Alex, but I notice in our legal system, people who want to share are treated almost as harshly as people who want to steal, you know, because the people in charge,
[03:53.880 --> 03:56.600]  they don't want certain things shared.
[03:56.600 --> 03:59.140]  They don't want knowledge to be distributed amongst the masses.
[03:59.360 --> 04:15.440]  They want to maintain their control by maintaining that ignorance that they push onto everybody else, not telling them how particular systems or security works, not realizing that that is how you build better systems, by understanding how they work.
[04:15.440 --> 04:17.680]  Down to our very government.
[04:18.040 --> 04:19.900]  Down to civics.
[04:20.140 --> 04:24.560]  Like, it's not clear enough.
[04:24.740 --> 04:44.420]  The functioning aspect of a republic and a democracy, a representative institution such as our own, and people not cherishing and having a complete understanding of the value of it and it in a healthy state.
[04:45.440 --> 04:48.020]  I don't think has been more pronounced than this year.
[04:49.580 --> 04:50.380]  Alex, go ahead.
[04:51.260 --> 05:07.780]  Yeah, I think, you know, we're really onto something here because hopefully, and maybe this could be considered another prediction of mine in 2023, but hopefully what we can do here on this program, on Off the Hook, as part of 2600 and the hacker community,
[05:07.780 --> 05:15.420]  is that I think we need to bridge the gap between the cryptocurrency world and the hacker community.
[05:15.440 --> 05:23.580]  The world of cyber security professional things because we are very much living in an interrelated system right now.
[05:23.740 --> 05:28.920]  That ecosystem of Web 3 digital assets, cryptocurrency, etc.
[05:29.440 --> 05:44.040]  is all reliant on what we would ordinarily consider this Web 2 type of infrastructure that requires security, that requires minds like ours in order to secure it to keep terrible things from happening to a lot of these digital assets in the Web 3 world.
[05:44.040 --> 05:47.100]  And, you know, I talked to Virgil quite a bit.
[05:48.620 --> 05:51.440]  And, you know, we talk at least a couple of times a week.
[05:51.440 --> 06:04.220]  And when we do, this is something that he actually always brings up to me, which is that he hopes that we can begin to bridge that gap and to bring into the fold a lot of these people that we would otherwise consider to be outsiders.
[06:04.220 --> 06:16.100]  And there seems to be this weird animosity between the hacker subculture and what we would ordinarily consider, you know, crypto bros, you know, or just, you know, people that are, you know, looking to make a quick book.
[06:16.100 --> 06:24.960]  But they're because there are some real legitimate technologies there, people trying to pick things apart, people trying to figure out how systems work and how to make them better.
[06:25.420 --> 06:33.400]  And those are the people that I think we do need to take into the fold of the hacker community of our subculture and try to nurture them.
[06:33.400 --> 06:36.800]  And I think there's a lot to be learned on both sides of the fence here.
[06:37.000 --> 06:43.000]  So hopefully that's something that we can begin to make happen a bit more frequently in 2023.
[06:43.920 --> 06:45.040]  That's a good wish.
[06:45.200 --> 06:47.180]  Good wish for that period ahead.
[06:47.600 --> 06:48.500]  And we're going to need it.
[06:48.600 --> 06:50.420]  We're certainly going to need that kind of mentality.
[06:50.780 --> 06:55.820]  Hey, there was a story I wanted to get to, didn't have time on the radio, but here we are in overtime.
[06:56.040 --> 07:02.100]  I'd like to just touch upon this before we open up the phone lines, which, by the way, we are not picking up the phone until we give out the phone number.
[07:02.100 --> 07:03.420]  In fact, we have the ringer turned off.
[07:03.540 --> 07:08.000]  So if anyone's calling, you're wasting your time because it's not even going to count.
[07:08.300 --> 07:10.700]  We don't even know if it's going to work if we take your call.
[07:10.700 --> 07:17.040]  Well, what we're going to do is when we give the phone number out, if anybody is calling at that time, we're going to cut them off so that everybody gets an equal shot.
[07:17.180 --> 07:22.520]  I am predicting a 30%, no, 70% chance of a high-pitched squeal.
[07:22.860 --> 07:23.620]  That can happen.
[07:23.820 --> 07:24.600]  That can happen.
[07:24.600 --> 07:29.000]  But it's better than somebody, you know, cutting the place in line and getting on the air.
[07:29.000 --> 07:31.180]  Yeah, we won't get to that until the aforementioned number.
[07:31.180 --> 07:35.800]  Yank that phone cord out of the wall if we have to, just to maintain our integrity.
[07:36.240 --> 07:36.320]  Okay.
[07:36.640 --> 07:42.400]  Speaking of maintaining integrity, this is not what's happening in New York City here.
[07:43.060 --> 07:44.580]  You might have heard about this story.
[07:44.880 --> 08:01.140]  Over the past month, multiple attorneys whose firms have litigation against the Madison Square Garden venue have said that Madison Square Garden has used facial recognition tech to find them and kick them out of shows.
[08:02.460 --> 08:02.620]  Yeah.
[08:02.980 --> 08:05.580]  And this is...
[08:05.580 --> 08:06.820]  Here's an example.
[08:06.960 --> 08:07.700]  I'm going to read you one example.
[08:07.700 --> 08:21.480]  Barbara Hart was celebrating her wedding anniversary, waiting for Brandi Carlile to take the stage of Madison Square Garden on October 22, when a pair of security guards approached her and her husband, by their seats, asked for the couple to follow them.
[08:21.480 --> 08:27.780]  At first, she said to Rolling Stone that she was excited, thinking it was some kind of surprise before the concert started.
[08:28.040 --> 08:30.300]  Her excitement, though, turned to anxiety.
[08:30.300 --> 08:39.960]  Soon after, as she spoke with security and gathered that she'd been identified using facial recognition technology, they escorted her out of the venue.
[08:40.360 --> 08:41.460]  Did she get a refund?
[08:42.720 --> 08:44.780]  I imagine she must have gotten a refund.
[08:45.200 --> 08:48.060]  Now, she was initially confused, having no idea why she was flagged.
[08:48.120 --> 09:02.780]  She says security informed her that she was being ejected because of her job as an attorney at Grant and Eisenhofer, a law firm currently litigating against Madison Square Garden's parent company, in a Delaware-class action suit involving several groups of shareholders.
[09:03.480 --> 09:06.640]  Now, Madison Square Garden Entertainment is owned by James Dolan.
[09:06.660 --> 09:07.640]  You might have heard that name.
[09:08.200 --> 09:12.980]  He's been known to kick out fans who anger him at various games of the teams he owns.
[09:14.660 --> 09:15.160]  He...
[09:15.900 --> 09:25.640]  Madison Square Garden Entertainment confirmed to Rolling Stone that it enacted a policy in recent months forbidding anyone in active litigation against the company from entry to the company's venues.
[09:25.860 --> 09:29.860]  Now, those venues include Madison Square Garden.
[09:30.060 --> 09:31.540]  They include Radio City Music Hall.
[09:31.640 --> 09:32.740]  They include the Beacon Theater.
[09:32.980 --> 09:35.760]  They include the Chicago Theater, which, for some reason, is in New York.
[09:35.760 --> 09:47.560]  The company's use of facial recognition tools itself dates back to at least 2018, when the New York Times first reported on it, anyone who enters a venue is subject to scanning.
[09:47.880 --> 09:52.960]  But that practice now seems to coincide with the policy against opposing litigants.
[09:54.220 --> 09:56.360]  You know, this...
[09:56.360 --> 10:01.320]  First of all, this particular attorney was not involved in the case.
[10:01.320 --> 10:02.200]  She worked for the firm.
[10:02.420 --> 10:15.860]  So, apparently, anybody who works for the firm is being kept out of a particular venue because the owner of that venue is being sued by lawyers who work for that firm.
[10:17.000 --> 10:18.840]  Alex, this doesn't seem fair, right?
[10:18.840 --> 10:20.800]  This is not how the legal world is supposed to work.
[10:20.900 --> 10:22.490]  I mean, you know, can you...
[10:23.040 --> 10:26.700]  If you were suing New York City, could they keep you from coming to New York City?
[10:26.700 --> 10:27.900]  You know, it's the same logic.
[10:29.440 --> 10:32.380]  I mean, yeah, this is really insane.
[10:32.640 --> 10:34.500]  I mean, it's really nutty.
[10:34.600 --> 10:36.820]  I mean, look, I want to...
[10:36.820 --> 10:50.160]  You know, the headline here is I think this is an egregious misuse of facial recognition technology, you know, to gain some kind of almost just petty tactical advantage in litigation.
[10:50.160 --> 10:54.680]  The whole thing just seems really, really petty and childish.
[10:55.900 --> 10:59.000]  But it has really serious ramifications here.
[10:59.440 --> 11:16.920]  You know, and I want to play devil's advocate on the one hand here, too, because we have to acknowledge, just in the same way that we acknowledge Twitter is a private platform and it has its own First Amendment rights, and it can kick off lunatics, you know,
[11:17.200 --> 11:24.240]  alt-right lunatics that are espousing hateful things or pushing out disinformation about vaccines.
[11:25.420 --> 11:33.260]  A venue in this particular instance, a corporation, also has a First Amendment right to deny entry to certain persons.
[11:34.640 --> 11:42.260]  And, you know, so long as they don't do it in some kind of discriminatory fashion or, you know, on the basis of an immutable characteristic like...
[11:43.020 --> 11:43.540]  Being a lawyer?
[11:44.760 --> 11:45.820]  Yeah, that's right.
[11:45.960 --> 11:47.280]  Well, that is...
[11:47.280 --> 11:54.520]  Some might say it's a genetic calling, but I would probably dispute that.
[11:54.520 --> 11:56.680]  But I think it's...
[11:57.320 --> 12:00.060]  So, on the one hand, I mean, look, they're a private entity.
[12:00.260 --> 12:03.800]  They can say, you know, we don't want you in here, and you're out.
[12:03.880 --> 12:05.740]  Yeah, but Alex, who is you?
[12:05.920 --> 12:09.260]  I mean, in this particular case, it seems like anybody who's an employee of that company.
[12:09.420 --> 12:11.520]  That seems pretty discriminatory to me.
[12:11.760 --> 12:20.160]  Hey, look, if you go to the Metropolitan Opera, right, and you run on stage and you defecate on stage, I'm going to expect that the Metropolitan Opera will say, you know what, we don't want you coming here anymore.
[12:20.260 --> 12:21.060]  And that makes sense.
[12:21.200 --> 12:22.000]  There's a reason for it.
[12:22.000 --> 12:31.880]  But to say that because you work for the same company that somebody they are opposed to or fighting with, I mean, where does it end?
[12:32.000 --> 12:33.420]  Is it the families as well?
[12:33.620 --> 12:36.120]  It can just keep mushrooming.
[12:36.420 --> 12:41.920]  Yeah, I do want to say I don't agree with what Madison Square Garden is doing at all.
[12:41.920 --> 12:53.380]  But there is an argument to be made that lawyers that are acting on behalf of an opposing litigant in a case are adverse to Madison Square Garden.
[12:53.500 --> 12:59.780]  If you do let them into your venue, they can begin to collect information that might be relevant to whatever the lawsuit is.
[12:59.780 --> 13:16.920]  However, I think you would have to, in order to do this in a way that makes sense, where there's a rational basis for your exclusion of certain personnel would be to say, okay, well, only lawyers that are working on this particular case at a particular law firm where issues of,
[13:17.040 --> 13:41.380]  let's say, premises liability or like, let's say that, you know, it might have been a slip and fall case where the conditions of, you know, stairs in the in the in the auditorium are at issue where there's some kind of physicality or some kind of evidence that could be gleaned from being inside that could give that litigant some advantage by having a lawyer inside the venue.
[13:41.860 --> 13:45.980]  You know, there'd be a reason then, I think, to keep out certain lawyers.
[13:46.140 --> 14:02.740]  But as a lawyer yourself, as a partner in a firm, I mean, on any given case, what firm would would feel obliged to disclose who exactly down to the staff level is working on any particular case.
[14:02.920 --> 14:08.620]  I mean, I feel like that would be, that's like a form of self disclosure, no firm would really agree to.
[14:09.380 --> 14:10.860]  Well, in that scenario.
[14:11.820 --> 14:14.200]  Yeah, in the sense that you wouldn't have to, right?
[14:14.400 --> 14:20.400]  Because the lawyers that are going to be working on a particular case, they're going to have their names on the pleadings.
[14:20.500 --> 14:21.040]  On the docket.
[14:21.400 --> 14:21.740]  Okay.
[14:22.100 --> 14:38.800]  But you're right, though, Kyle, because, you know, very often, the names that you see on pleadings in a docket are going to be the names of the partners or the more senior people at the firm, as opposed to the younger associates, the younger lawyers that are working in the day in and day out of the case.
[14:39.000 --> 14:40.420]  So, you are right there.
[14:40.580 --> 14:55.340]  I guess the reverse would be, okay, other, I guess, properties that perhaps an entity, a legal firm might have a jurisdiction over, like no Madison Square Garden employees may become clients.
[14:55.340 --> 15:09.200]  You know, they set their own sort of private rules, and that goes to the sort of mushrooming you were talking about, how this just goes from one space to another until everybody's sort of paralyzed and can't go anywhere for all their different reasons.
[15:09.280 --> 15:10.720]  Let me just bring up a hypothetical here.
[15:10.720 --> 15:17.420]  If I were to say right here that, oh, I don't know, on February 14th, Billy Joel is going to be playing in Madison Square Garden.
[15:17.760 --> 15:28.980]  If this legal firm gives me a ticket to that show, I'll walk around and inspect all the staircases and bathrooms, whatever else you want me to look at, as long as I get to see the show, you know?
[15:29.160 --> 15:30.800]  And what are they going to do about that?
[15:31.380 --> 15:35.380]  Are they going to take me saying this right now and get my face somehow?
[15:35.380 --> 15:40.320]  And if I try to go into Madison Square Garden on that day or any day, I'll be flagged.
[15:40.400 --> 15:41.180]  Where does it end?
[15:41.840 --> 15:43.460]  Well, you're absolutely right.
[15:43.620 --> 15:52.400]  And that's why I think a lot of this isn't about protecting Madison Square Garden from lawyers collecting evidence or information about their venue.
[15:52.660 --> 15:55.400]  I think a lot of... because you could do exactly that.
[15:55.480 --> 16:00.060]  You could hire a private investigator to go in and start taking photos of the venue.
[16:00.060 --> 16:02.020]  That's what any good law firm would do.
[16:02.100 --> 16:06.760]  You're not going to send your lawyers out to go and collect evidence about Madison Square Garden.
[16:06.840 --> 16:08.080]  They're not really equipped to do that.
[16:08.160 --> 16:16.860]  You would want to send somebody who has that particular type of training, and you would want to send somebody in who could then testify as a witness in court about that.
[16:16.940 --> 16:19.400]  You never want to have lawyers testifying as witnesses.
[16:19.640 --> 16:24.380]  That's a very, very rookie mistake that you would not want to make.
[16:25.180 --> 16:25.580]  But...
[16:25.580 --> 16:26.520]  Why is that a mistake?
[16:27.440 --> 16:30.080]  Well, you just... you want your lawyers to be advocates.
[16:30.080 --> 16:34.520]  You don't want them to be fact witnesses because then their character could be impugned as well.
[16:34.680 --> 16:34.900]  Okay.
[16:35.440 --> 16:35.640]  Right?
[16:35.720 --> 16:48.820]  So, if you have lawyers from your firm being put on the witness stand subject to cross-examination, it could taint the overall character of the law firm that's handling the particular case.
[16:48.820 --> 16:58.620]  And just to be clear, you know, I would prefer to see Bruce Springsteen on April 1st, just in case anybody is taking this seriously, you know, much more than Billy Joel on Valentine's Day.
[16:59.240 --> 17:15.260]  But, you know, look, when we're talking about these things, you know, we're joking in a sense, but I think what Madison Square Garden is doing possibly could be to try to discourage a lot of these larger law firms from taking up, from becoming opposing counsel,
[17:15.260 --> 17:20.880]  because that means that every single lawyer in that firm is not going to be allowed to enter Madison Square Garden.
[17:20.880 --> 17:21.220]  Exactly.
[17:21.620 --> 17:26.900]  And the reason being is that, you know, you look at, you know, my firm is almost 700 lawyers.
[17:27.200 --> 17:32.000]  You know, a lot of other, a lot of firms that, you know, are even larger than that.
[17:32.180 --> 17:32.280]  Right?
[17:32.420 --> 17:43.660]  And so, you know, all of a sudden you have, you know, 1,100 people in New York that can't go and access a concert venue with their kids, their wife, for pleasure, you know, and it's the venue in New York.
[17:43.820 --> 17:46.440]  I think it's the biggest concert venue in the city.
[17:46.700 --> 17:57.620]  So the flip side of this, too, is that it's very easy for Madison Square Garden or for anybody to begin to facial profile lawyers in particular.
[17:57.960 --> 18:03.400]  Because if you go to any law firm's website, they're going to have pictures of their attorneys.
[18:03.600 --> 18:11.280]  Every single lawyer generally has a picture on their website of their face, along with biographical information.
[18:11.280 --> 18:23.660]  So you could very easily scrape that information, feed it into your facial recognition system, and deny access to every single lawyer who works at one particular law firm, probably within minutes.
[18:23.660 --> 18:24.520]  Rob Dengila.
[18:25.640 --> 18:26.080]  Okay.
[18:26.280 --> 18:29.020]  It's very important to note that this is not an isolated incident.
[18:29.180 --> 18:31.040]  This is a pattern of behavior now by MSG.
[18:31.240 --> 18:45.320]  There's a second story that came out not too long after the first one where Radio City Music Hall, also owned by MSG and Dolan, kicked out a lawyer called Kelly Conlon, who was there with her daughter and her daughter's Girl Scout troop to see a show.
[18:45.320 --> 18:54.460]  And they removed her from the group she was with, removed her from her daughter, because she worked for a different firm that has something to do with the case against MSG.
[18:54.940 --> 18:59.460]  And so this is not a one-time misstep or weird decision.
[18:59.680 --> 19:05.100]  This is obviously what's being told to the employees of this organization to do.
[19:05.100 --> 19:16.140]  And a very good point that was brought up in one of the articles about all this was places like Radio City, Madison Square Garden, their landmarks, their public institutions.
[19:16.700 --> 19:21.680]  And what is the requirement of having a place like that and admitting the public?
[19:22.700 --> 19:25.560]  They're getting all sorts of tax breaks from the city, the state, whoever.
[19:27.320 --> 19:32.900]  They exist to bring in tourism, to be part of the whole New York City experience for people.
[19:33.520 --> 19:37.540]  Do they have a responsibility to let people in, even people they might not like?
[19:37.700 --> 19:45.880]  They have things like the liquor license requirements to worry about and things like that, which require, in the letter of the law, you have to admit the public.
[19:46.460 --> 19:51.140]  And so there's very interesting things going on with this, and I really want to see how this shakes out.
[19:51.540 --> 19:57.900]  I'm also very interested in the possible technical implications of, like, what if we all print these lawyers' faces on t-shirts and go see a show?
[19:58.160 --> 19:59.820]  Like, how is that going to jam the radar?
[20:00.100 --> 20:00.360]  Wow.
[20:01.160 --> 20:02.320]  That's a great idea.
[20:02.600 --> 20:07.900]  The other thing that it brought up for me was the whole thing about, I think, Kyle, you were saying this also, about consolidation.
[20:08.920 --> 20:13.980]  And we're talking about the MSG network of venues.
[20:13.980 --> 20:22.980]  So we're talking about Madison Square Garden, all the venues at Madison Square Garden, Radio City Music Hall, the Beacon Theater, the Chicago Theater in Chicago.
[20:23.000 --> 20:23.960]  I'm sorry about that.
[20:24.080 --> 20:24.740]  Yeah, it's in Chicago.
[20:24.860 --> 20:25.480]  It's not in New York.
[20:25.580 --> 20:26.500]  I made a misassumption.
[20:26.880 --> 20:31.000]  And they're opening a venue in Las Vegas in 2023.
[20:32.780 --> 20:36.960]  So we are now... it's reaching out across the world.
[20:37.160 --> 20:40.220]  And I'm also going to... not across the world, across the country, but bear with me.
[20:40.400 --> 20:49.740]  And also to say, the story that Rob was talking about, it wasn't just that this woman went to a show with her daughter's Girl Scout troop.
[20:49.900 --> 20:54.860]  She got kicked out of the Rockettes Christmas show in front of her child.
[20:54.860 --> 21:04.060]  So now we're talking about people who are traveling to come to these events that... I mean, I think they're from Connecticut, but just go with me here.
[21:05.700 --> 21:17.080]  And where... the idea of all the consolidation, that all these venues are owned by the same people, and the same situation applies to all these... you know, and then where does it end, right?
[21:17.180 --> 21:19.680]  James Dolan also owns the Knicks, am I right?
[21:20.060 --> 21:20.340]  Mm-hmm.
[21:21.280 --> 21:22.320]  Is he gonna start...
[21:22.320 --> 21:23.240]  Is it the Knicks or the Nets?
[21:23.260 --> 21:23.720]  I'm not sure.
[21:23.720 --> 21:24.940]  It's the Knicks.
[21:25.100 --> 21:25.640]  It's the Knicks, okay.
[21:25.640 --> 21:26.240]  Jay-Z owns the Nets.
[21:26.440 --> 21:26.540]  All right.
[21:27.320 --> 21:29.400]  Also, the Knicks play out of Madison Square Garden.
[21:29.780 --> 21:30.260]  It's...
[21:30.260 --> 21:30.560]  That's...
[21:31.160 --> 21:33.420]  It's own sort of dog food there.
[21:33.460 --> 21:36.200]  He's got a business working within a venue, but...
[21:36.540 --> 21:36.880]  Go ahead.
[21:37.280 --> 21:38.460]  But here's my question.
[21:38.800 --> 21:47.560]  Is he gonna start trying to compel the venues outside of his control?
[21:47.560 --> 21:53.100]  Is he gonna say, oh, if the Knicks are playing somewhere else, are we gonna apply these same rules?
[21:53.840 --> 21:58.520]  To anybody who is in my sphere of influence in any way?
[21:58.720 --> 21:59.000]  Mm-hmm.
[21:59.220 --> 22:01.800]  I think that's a really excellent point.
[22:01.800 --> 22:20.580]  In what ways this is tangling up athletic teams in wholly distinct separate business practices, simply be cut by virtue of that ownership allowance that the market has deemed acceptable.
[22:20.580 --> 22:31.140]  To what end is this audience going to be victimized by Mr. Dolan's entanglements and whims?
[22:31.140 --> 22:33.180]  That is a problem.
[22:33.480 --> 22:54.380]  That a team is captive to that and will become known kind of for that recourse possibly occurring, whether, yes, in that particular venue or if they try to move with the team, God forbid, imposing that just because of his business practices and so forth.
[22:54.380 --> 23:13.440]  I really hope that if anywhere, if he shows his face somewhere, which I doubt there's any place else, you know, that other people control where he actually shows his face, but assuming there is a place where he does that, I really would be interested to see how he responds to being treated the same way.
[23:13.440 --> 23:27.380]  And, um, and I just feel like it's, uh, it's just an offshoot of that, um, that kind of, uh, control, uh, that maybe teams could say, Hey, we're not really on board for this.
[23:27.480 --> 23:33.480]  Now, if they're owned by these guys, then again, this speaks to like Gila saying monopoly, like, what is the problem?
[23:33.480 --> 23:42.840]  I mean, we, we get into ticket master too, you know, like, are you noticing a recurring theme where all of us are having our lives up ended by temper tantrums of the very rich?
[23:43.600 --> 23:43.940]  Yeah.
[23:44.100 --> 23:44.120]  Yeah.
[23:44.120 --> 23:51.120]  And, and the technology, I mean, look at the technology being abused in ways that I guess I didn't even predict this.
[23:51.260 --> 23:54.660]  I knew it was going to be abused, but wow, this is a level of infancy.
[23:54.840 --> 23:55.860]  I was not expecting.
[23:56.120 --> 23:56.740]  Go ahead, Alex.
[23:58.420 --> 24:03.080]  You know, I think you are, uh, 100% right there.
[24:03.080 --> 24:03.740]  Emmanuel.
[24:04.400 --> 24:12.460]  And, and I want to build off what Kyle was saying, which is, you know, how, how would Dolan himself respond to this type of discriminatory behavior?
[24:13.040 --> 24:17.740]  And, and I think that's the real danger here too, though, is that there will be tit for tats.
[24:18.300 --> 24:31.740]  If this, if the use of this technology goes on unchecked and unregulated, you know, for the foreseeable future, that's, it's the inevitable consequence here that there will be tit for tat types of discrimination.
[24:31.740 --> 24:44.520]  And it's going to get out of hand really, really quickly because it, it will spiral into something utterly crazy and inane because it will become a game for billionaires to be playing with each other and their lawyers.
[24:44.520 --> 24:47.760]  And it's just ridiculous and foul.
[24:47.960 --> 24:57.280]  And it's a complete abuse of this type of technology, you know, and I, I think that there has to be local regulation of this thing.
[24:57.280 --> 25:13.560]  I think, you know, to, to wish for, for some kind of overarching federal law about facial recognition technology and its uses is, is, is really a pipe dream because, you know, Congress just can't get it exact together and even to put together some overarching data privacy type bill.
[25:13.780 --> 25:18.000]  So, uh, but you know, at the local level, even if they were threatened.
[25:19.020 --> 25:19.460]  Yeah.
[25:19.760 --> 25:19.840]  Yeah.
[25:19.840 --> 25:21.360]  Well, you, you, you, you never know, right?
[25:21.580 --> 25:26.000]  It's surprising how little they care when even their own are at risk.
[25:26.560 --> 25:27.680]  That's, that's true.
[25:27.840 --> 25:28.320]  That is true.
[25:28.660 --> 25:40.000]  But what, what is interesting though, is, you know, at the, at the local level, and even at the, the New York City level, there have actually been some really interesting laws that the city council have passed within the, in the past year.
[25:40.000 --> 25:51.240]  And in particular, regulating the use of artificial and, uh, artificial intelligence technologies in the, in the use of automated employment decision making type of, uh, scenarios.
[25:51.620 --> 26:07.760]  And in fact, Emmanuel, I think there's even, you know, if I can, um, you know, give a little foreshadowing, there's even a, an article coming out in the next 2600 magazine about that particular local law and, uh, the regulation of artificial intelligence technology.
[26:07.760 --> 26:10.900]  And then I know the article kind of bleeds into some other issues.
[26:11.040 --> 26:11.940]  I won't give it all away.
[26:12.060 --> 26:12.980]  I'm sworn to secrecy.
[26:13.100 --> 26:14.140]  So you won't get anything out of it.
[26:14.320 --> 26:15.700]  Yeah, exactly.
[26:16.200 --> 26:26.260]  But, you know, I was, I was really impressed that the New York City council actually did something, you know, uh, that regulated technology in, in a somewhat rational way.
[26:26.380 --> 26:31.580]  I mean, they're, they're still tweaking how it's going to work and there's a lot of unanswered questions and things like that.
[26:31.660 --> 26:35.300]  And, you know, look, it's, it's an interesting issue and it makes work for lawyers.
[26:35.300 --> 26:52.140]  So, you know, I'm happy with that, but it goes to show you that this type of technology can be regulated by cities in a reasonable and a rational way, uh, that prevents this kind of misuse and this kind of spiraling, uh, abuse of, of the technology.
[26:52.140 --> 27:01.160]  So, you know, I would love to see the city council get off its butt and act before James Dolan creates the tit for tat situation that Kyle had described.
[27:01.160 --> 27:08.900]  Well, you know, it seems like we've just leapfrogged over the whole debate as to whether or not it's a good idea to have your face scanned and identified when you walk into venues.
[27:09.000 --> 27:10.600]  That just seems to be normal now.
[27:10.820 --> 27:13.300]  And, uh, the, is there anything we can do about it?
[27:14.920 --> 27:16.780]  Uh, maybe, I don't know.
[27:16.960 --> 27:28.360]  I mean, I, I feel, I, I hate to say, but I feel like that the horse has left the barn and in, in a lot of ways because of the overarching need for physical security of these venues.
[27:28.360 --> 27:42.380]  And, you know, we haven't said this word in a while, but, you know, in a post nine 11 world, I feel like with, with this technology being so readily available, it's going to be used for that type of, um, that type of purpose.
[27:42.380 --> 27:45.960]  I, I would just, uh, say it hasn't the reaction.
[27:45.960 --> 27:52.920]  I think though, I mean, the implementation, the ubiquity is there now, but the reaction hasn't been, um, uh, really seen yet.
[27:52.920 --> 28:01.780]  And I, I, I do think there are things like, yes, the horse is out of the stable, but it's not out of the, uh, corral, so to speak.
[28:01.940 --> 28:09.020]  Is there any kind of, um, is there any kind of rule concerning the list of names or, or, or faces they're keeping?
[28:09.820 --> 28:15.200]  Can, can, can, uh, people find out, am I on that list or who is on that list?
[28:15.200 --> 28:22.400]  Can we analyze that and, and basically have that be made public since they are basically targeting these people?
[28:23.620 --> 28:24.280]  Yeah.
[28:24.420 --> 28:39.520]  I mean, uh, arguably some of these businesses, you know, businesses like Madison square garden and whatnot, because of their size, they would probably have to comply with state privacy laws like the CCPA.
[28:40.160 --> 28:49.940]  No, I say probably because, you know, I don't, I would have to take a look at all of, all of the facts and circumstances, uh, and, uh, the CCPA, the California consumer privacy act.
[28:50.140 --> 29:01.940]  And, uh, which would allow somebody, you know, who is a California resident to make a request to figure out whether or not their name was on their particular list and what type of data they were holding about, uh, an individual.
[29:02.560 --> 29:08.980]  But again, it's, it's kind of scattershot and how privacy rights are distributed in this country.
[29:08.980 --> 29:11.360]  And it's done on a state by state basis.
[29:11.560 --> 29:23.020]  We don't have any overarching federal privacy law that would, uh, provide us that information upon request, you know, of a, of a particular data owner or data controller like, uh, MSG.
[29:23.440 --> 29:26.720]  So, you know, right now in New York, I think it would be tough.
[29:26.920 --> 29:35.220]  I don't think there is a law on the books that would allow an individual to make that request, but a California resident probably could.
[29:35.220 --> 29:42.280]  Well, you know, I'm just thinking if, if you're going to travel to a different city, uh, and, and see some kind of show, wouldn't you like to know in advance?
[29:42.480 --> 29:44.280]  Are you going to have trouble getting into this venue?
[29:44.620 --> 29:47.700]  There should be a way you can ask and say, Hey, am I going to have trouble?
[29:48.120 --> 29:49.720]  And they should give you an answer.
[29:49.940 --> 29:52.360]  Otherwise, uh, you know, you've wasted a lot of money and time.
[29:53.120 --> 29:53.520]  Yeah.
[29:53.900 --> 29:53.960]  Yeah.
[29:54.080 --> 30:09.180]  I mean, one, one could even argue that at the point of sale, if your name matches the name and other, uh, identifying criteria of, of a particular person who's on a blacklist, you shouldn't be, they, they shouldn't sell you the ticket.
[30:09.320 --> 30:09.400]  Yeah.
[30:09.440 --> 30:10.860]  The transaction should be halted.
[30:11.100 --> 30:11.260]  Right.
[30:11.280 --> 30:15.300]  Well, it's quite possible the person, uh, being targeted in this case was the guest of somebody else.
[30:15.420 --> 30:20.960]  So there's really, unless you want to identify everybody who comes into the place, uh, it's going to be tough to, uh, to cover that.
[30:21.140 --> 30:21.460]  Okay.
[30:21.540 --> 30:23.720]  Hey, um, I, I guess we should open up phone lines.
[30:23.920 --> 30:27.540]  Uh, Kyle, first make sure the phone is not ringing so that we...
[30:27.540 --> 30:27.740]  It's not.
[30:27.860 --> 30:28.300]  It's not ringing.
[30:28.420 --> 30:28.500]  Okay.
[30:28.580 --> 30:29.680]  So we're going to give out the phone number now.
[30:30.720 --> 30:32.060]  802-321-4225.
[30:32.360 --> 30:34.560]  802-321-HACK is our telephone number.
[30:34.560 --> 30:36.780]  If anybody wants to call in and join the conversation.
[30:37.000 --> 30:38.220]  First time callers get priority.
[30:38.840 --> 30:40.380]  Well, I don't know how, how do we do that?
[30:40.500 --> 30:40.820]  I don't know.
[30:40.960 --> 30:43.920]  We, we can't control who calls, but, uh, we, we prefer first time...
[30:43.920 --> 30:44.400]  We can tell by the ring.
[30:44.540 --> 30:51.140]  We prefer, not that we have anything against our, our, our, our old time callers, but our, uh, new callers, obviously we should be encouraging new people as well.
[30:51.320 --> 30:54.200]  So if you've never called before, by all means, try calling now.
[30:54.440 --> 30:56.440]  Uh, 802-321-4225.
[30:56.980 --> 30:59.740]  The area code is in Vermont, but we're not.
[30:59.940 --> 31:02.420]  And I understand the phone is, is ringing Kyle.
[31:03.140 --> 31:03.620]  Yes.
[31:04.300 --> 31:04.580]  Okay.
[31:04.580 --> 31:04.880]  Sort of.
[31:05.040 --> 31:07.780]  Would you like me to answer now or should I let it warm up?
[31:08.220 --> 31:08.540]  Are you sure?
[31:08.540 --> 31:09.720]  It's probably Rebel, but let's go.
[31:11.500 --> 31:14.620]  And you are on off the hook overtime.
[31:14.620 --> 31:15.060]  Go ahead.
[31:18.770 --> 31:19.710]  Is anybody there?
[31:21.150 --> 31:25.270]  Kyle, you put a piece of green tape on this, but I can't move the level any higher.
[31:26.230 --> 31:27.710]  I guess that's, that's a good level.
[31:28.510 --> 31:28.910]  Okay.
[31:29.890 --> 31:32.250]  You decided that's how, that's how loud I can go.
[31:32.930 --> 31:33.490]  All right.
[31:35.490 --> 31:36.890]  802-321-4225.
[31:37.250 --> 31:38.530]  It was a recommendation.
[31:39.010 --> 31:39.350]  Okay.
[31:39.430 --> 31:40.670]  But it hasn't been tested.
[31:40.670 --> 31:41.510]  It's more than a recommendation.
[31:41.510 --> 31:42.250]  It's a piece of tape.
[31:42.390 --> 31:43.250]  I can't get past it.
[31:43.350 --> 31:45.510]  It just, it won't go, but I hear the phone ringing.
[31:45.710 --> 31:47.870]  So let's, uh, let's see who's there.
[31:48.090 --> 31:49.190]  Be careful with that channel.
[31:49.190 --> 31:50.170]  I don't trust it.
[31:50.230 --> 31:50.950]  That's why I had it.
[31:51.110 --> 31:51.730]  I don't trust any of the channels.
[31:51.910 --> 31:53.010]  It's going to be broken.
[31:53.330 --> 31:53.390]  Mm-hmm.
[31:53.490 --> 31:53.690]  There.
[31:53.870 --> 31:54.050]  All right.
[31:54.210 --> 31:54.690]  And good evening.
[31:54.850 --> 31:56.310]  You are on off the hook overtime.
[31:57.710 --> 31:58.190]  Go ahead.
[32:00.470 --> 32:01.290]  I hear myself.
[32:01.290 --> 32:02.310]  I don't hear anybody else.
[32:04.090 --> 32:04.410]  Okay.
[32:04.470 --> 32:05.230]  You gotta, you gotta speak.
[32:05.390 --> 32:07.190]  That's, uh, maybe they're not hearing me.
[32:07.190 --> 32:08.310]  Is that possible?
[32:09.150 --> 32:09.230]  Okay.
[32:09.370 --> 32:10.310]  Kyle's nodding his head.
[32:10.770 --> 32:13.070]  Meaning that, um, okay.
[32:13.270 --> 32:20.110]  Uh, it seems we have a situation here where there's somebody on the phone, but they can't hear me because somebody changed something on the damn board.
[32:20.310 --> 32:21.530]  It worked last time.
[32:22.630 --> 32:23.150]  Okay.
[32:23.430 --> 32:27.070]  Um, if this person is listening on, yeah.
[32:27.190 --> 32:27.310]  Okay.
[32:27.410 --> 32:30.250]  They hear me probably about 30 seconds after I say something.
[32:30.810 --> 32:32.830]  Um, and they hung up again.
[32:34.910 --> 32:35.390]  Hmm.
[32:36.210 --> 32:37.310]  What do you recommend, Kyle?
[32:37.650 --> 32:39.810]  That, that's, that sounded like rebel.
[32:40.270 --> 32:44.490]  Well, maybe, but, um, regardless, whoever it was couldn't hear us.
[32:45.150 --> 32:46.650]  Kyle's trying to figure this out right now.
[32:47.110 --> 32:50.290]  So while he's figuring that out, anybody else have anything they'd like to say?
[32:52.750 --> 32:54.710]  Not successfully figuring it out.
[32:56.750 --> 32:57.230]  Okay.
[32:57.230 --> 32:59.010]  You guys are a world of help here.
[32:59.010 --> 33:02.970]  Uh, what, what, what changed since the last time we used it?
[33:03.130 --> 33:04.310]  I don't even want to talk about it.
[33:04.470 --> 33:07.570]  Is there another radio show that comes in here and, and, and messes with the board?
[33:07.750 --> 33:09.570]  Uh, cause I want to have no words with them.
[33:09.770 --> 33:14.930]  No, there was a problem with, uh, feedback we'd, uh, we'd experienced.
[33:15.210 --> 33:21.670]  So what I had done is try to, try to alleviate some of that.
[33:21.790 --> 33:25.390]  And it does not appear to have had the effect that I would have liked it to have.
[33:25.390 --> 33:30.910]  So if you can be understanding, um, maybe we can take a call.
[33:31.250 --> 33:33.030]  Well, how can I be understanding if it doesn't work?
[33:33.330 --> 33:35.070]  I mean, I understand it doesn't work.
[33:35.210 --> 33:38.510]  Well, you're asking and seem confused.
[33:38.510 --> 33:39.810]  For the benefit of the audience.
[33:39.870 --> 33:40.090]  Yeah.
[33:40.090 --> 33:41.710]  They haven't been privy to this.
[33:41.970 --> 33:42.030]  So is that clear?
[33:42.970 --> 33:45.090]  As clear as almost anything else.
[33:45.250 --> 33:45.850]  So do we have a call?
[33:46.670 --> 33:46.990]  Yeah.
[33:47.250 --> 33:47.450]  Okay.
[33:47.550 --> 33:48.610]  But I don't think they can hear you.
[33:48.710 --> 33:49.690]  Well, then what's the point of taking it?
[33:49.690 --> 33:50.310]  Is anybody there?
[33:50.770 --> 33:51.270]  Can you hear me?
[33:52.290 --> 33:53.070]  Yeah, they can't hear me.
[33:53.090 --> 33:53.490]  What's the point?
[33:54.790 --> 33:55.090]  Hello?
[33:55.090 --> 33:55.270]  Hello?
[33:55.570 --> 33:55.790]  Yeah.
[33:56.130 --> 33:56.490]  Okay.
[33:56.850 --> 33:57.930]  That is rebel, isn't it?
[33:58.610 --> 33:58.790]  Hello?
[33:59.570 --> 34:02.090]  Do we just give him the microphone without...
[34:03.290 --> 34:03.650]  Hello?
[34:04.250 --> 34:04.530]  Hello?
[34:04.810 --> 34:05.570]  Boy, this is great.
[34:06.890 --> 34:07.030]  Hello?
[34:08.290 --> 34:10.150]  2022 has been a very rough year, hasn't it?
[34:10.230 --> 34:11.890]  Well, it's good that it goes out this way.
[34:11.910 --> 34:12.750]  That's for sure.
[34:14.610 --> 34:15.050]  All right.
[34:15.090 --> 34:16.390]  Well, we don't have to take calls, I guess.
[34:16.690 --> 34:19.490]  I feel bad, though, because, you know, we haven't taken calls in so long.
[34:19.770 --> 34:21.830]  And won't be here next week.
[34:22.390 --> 34:27.170]  I have every confidence that we'll be able to... that Kyle won't be able to fix this somehow.
[34:27.590 --> 34:35.370]  What if one of you guys calls in and you can basically just raise your hand when you hear us coming through the phone?
[34:35.470 --> 34:37.630]  That way... would that help, Kyle?
[34:37.970 --> 34:39.190]  Would that...
[34:39.190 --> 34:39.950]  Okay.
[34:40.250 --> 34:41.830]  He seems to indicate that it might help.
[34:41.990 --> 34:43.470]  So can one of you try calling?
[34:43.630 --> 34:47.550]  I must ask that nobody else call at this point in time.
[34:48.710 --> 34:53.130]  So, Kyle, you have to look at caller ID and make sure it's... it's... I believe Rob T.
[34:53.230 --> 34:54.290]  Firefly is calling in now.
[34:55.670 --> 34:56.070]  And...
[34:58.470 --> 34:59.350]  Is it ringing, Rob?
[35:01.370 --> 35:02.110]  It is ringing.
[35:02.250 --> 35:02.410]  Okay.
[35:02.490 --> 35:02.930]  It is ringing.
[35:04.130 --> 35:04.530]  Okay.
[35:04.670 --> 35:05.830]  And Kyle's going to pick it up.
[35:07.570 --> 35:08.210]  And... okay.
[35:08.610 --> 35:09.930]  So now you're connected.
[35:10.150 --> 35:12.070]  Can you... can you say something into the phone, right?
[35:12.350 --> 35:12.530]  Nope.
[35:12.790 --> 35:13.470]  You're not connected.
[35:14.430 --> 35:15.010]  That's right.
[35:15.210 --> 35:16.270]  It's still ringing over here.
[35:16.270 --> 35:16.730]  It's still ringing.
[35:16.890 --> 35:18.250]  I mean, somebody else was calling.
[35:18.430 --> 35:18.790]  Don't...
[35:18.790 --> 35:19.790]  Please, people, don't call.
[35:19.850 --> 35:20.830]  We won't be able to take any calls.
[35:21.950 --> 35:24.670]  You're going to have to call back, Rob, because it's never going to reach us.
[35:25.110 --> 35:26.230]  That's... that's the system.
[35:26.230 --> 35:26.670]  I'm sorry.
[35:26.750 --> 35:27.370]  That's how it works.
[35:28.350 --> 35:31.550]  So, no calls at the moment because we're trying to figure out...
[35:31.550 --> 35:33.030]  This is live troubleshooting over the air.
[35:33.210 --> 35:34.750]  Just let us know when it starts ringing, Rob.
[35:35.510 --> 35:36.050]  It's ringing.
[35:36.290 --> 35:36.550]  Okay.
[35:36.810 --> 35:37.670]  Let's try this again.
[35:39.130 --> 35:39.490]  Okay.
[35:39.730 --> 35:40.250]  Did it pick up?
[35:41.350 --> 35:42.430]  I believe it picked up.
[35:42.590 --> 35:42.710]  I believe it picked up.
[35:42.830 --> 35:43.070]  Okay.
[35:43.070 --> 35:45.650]  And we have you on the phone and we have you over the air at the same time.
[35:47.050 --> 35:47.330]  Kinky.
[35:47.550 --> 35:47.630]  Kinky.
[35:47.830 --> 35:49.670]  Now, you can't hear me over the phone.
[35:50.310 --> 35:51.810]  I cannot hear you over the phone now.
[35:51.850 --> 35:52.870]  But you hear me over the radio.
[35:52.990 --> 35:53.090]  Okay.
[35:53.090 --> 35:54.650]  So, we're going to continue doing the show.
[35:55.690 --> 35:58.690]  Don't you say anything because when you do...
[35:58.690 --> 35:59.690]  Unless you can mute your phone.
[35:59.810 --> 36:00.290]  That might be good.
[36:00.390 --> 36:01.170]  If you have a mute button.
[36:01.410 --> 36:01.790]  I can do that.
[36:01.990 --> 36:02.070]  I can do that.
[36:02.070 --> 36:02.330]  Okay.
[36:02.410 --> 36:02.970]  So, mute your phone.
[36:03.010 --> 36:04.390]  That way you can participate in the show.
[36:04.830 --> 36:13.150]  When you start hearing us, if you start hearing us, just raise your hand and then we'll know that Kyle has fixed the problem, which he always does at some point.
[36:13.150 --> 36:13.610]  Keep you...
[36:14.090 --> 36:14.970]  I will keep you posted.
[36:15.270 --> 36:15.530]  All right.
[36:15.750 --> 36:17.070]  Now, we just need something to talk about.
[36:18.770 --> 36:19.950]  Oh, you hear us.
[36:20.170 --> 36:20.450]  Wait.
[36:20.710 --> 36:21.650]  You can say you hear us.
[36:21.670 --> 36:22.590]  You don't just hold your thumb up.
[36:22.690 --> 36:23.290]  When did that happen?
[36:23.350 --> 36:23.930]  You hear us now?
[36:24.030 --> 36:24.170]  Okay.
[36:24.950 --> 36:25.470]  Just now.
[36:25.590 --> 36:25.830]  Okay.
[36:26.310 --> 36:27.830]  I don't know why you were giving me a silence.
[36:27.990 --> 36:28.150]  But now I'm not hearing.
[36:28.150 --> 36:28.790]  Now you're not hearing.
[36:29.370 --> 36:31.490]  You see, if you had said, I hear you now.
[36:31.490 --> 36:31.870]  There it is.
[36:31.930 --> 36:32.390]  There it is.
[36:32.470 --> 36:32.650]  Okay.
[36:32.750 --> 36:33.110]  That's good.
[36:33.610 --> 36:37.110]  The one quarter inch doesn't have to go...
[36:37.110 --> 36:40.290]  It shouldn't go all the way down, I think, because it's stereo in a mono.
[36:40.630 --> 36:40.890]  All right.
[36:40.890 --> 36:44.570]  Let's log this for all time so that people can remind us what the problem is.
[36:44.750 --> 36:49.110]  So, auxiliary out two has to go halfway down because it's a mono cable.
[36:49.310 --> 36:52.830]  Could all the listeners just write that down so that they can tell us if we forget in the future?
[36:52.830 --> 36:57.890]  Auxiliary one and three, which we're really only using one, I think, because that's left...
[36:57.890 --> 36:58.830]  I'm going to hang up on you guys.
[36:59.030 --> 36:59.370]  Left and right.
[36:59.450 --> 37:00.370]  That's nice, Rob.
[37:00.490 --> 37:01.410]  Thank you very much for that.
[37:02.070 --> 37:06.430]  Auxiliary one and three are for them on that machine.
[37:06.950 --> 37:06.990]  Can you believe that guy?
[37:07.130 --> 37:10.510]  And then auxiliary two is what's going to the phone.
[37:10.530 --> 37:17.170]  And that was pressed all the way in, I think, in a mono channel or a stereo channel, and it's mono or something.
[37:17.270 --> 37:17.470]  Whatever.
[37:17.650 --> 37:18.570]  That's good that it works.
[37:19.850 --> 37:21.910]  Yeah, I guess it does work.
[37:21.910 --> 37:23.010]  In the end, it works.
[37:23.310 --> 37:26.610]  But mostly, Kyle, you work hard to make this work.
[37:26.610 --> 37:29.370]  I think I got the levels right, because I was reading them vertically.
[37:30.290 --> 37:33.410]  Those red, all that four rows of red.
[37:33.510 --> 37:34.350]  I was reading them vertically.
[37:34.350 --> 37:35.570]  They're set up horizontally.
[37:35.890 --> 37:36.130]  I see.
[37:36.230 --> 37:38.050]  So that's why we would get this squeal.
[37:38.910 --> 37:39.350]  All right.
[37:39.410 --> 37:42.290]  I think we have a phone call, a real phone call from a real listener.
[37:42.290 --> 37:42.630]  Yeah.
[37:42.930 --> 37:44.570]  And let's talk to them.
[37:44.690 --> 37:45.050]  Good evening.
[37:45.190 --> 37:46.310]  You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
[37:48.050 --> 37:49.010]  Oh, thank you.
[37:49.190 --> 37:51.030]  It's Jacob from Denmark.
[37:51.450 --> 37:52.470]  Jacob from Denmark.
[37:52.750 --> 37:53.990]  Are you a new caller?
[37:55.950 --> 37:57.290]  I'm a new caller, yeah.
[37:57.450 --> 37:57.910]  All right.
[37:58.010 --> 37:59.230]  Well, this is exactly what we wanted.
[37:59.390 --> 38:00.690]  So thank you for calling.
[38:00.690 --> 38:03.910]  What's your number came across as a fraudulent.
[38:04.190 --> 38:06.950]  So can you confirm that you're fraudulent?
[38:06.970 --> 38:07.990]  What do you mean fraudulent?
[38:08.210 --> 38:09.190]  Wait, what's going on, Rob?
[38:09.770 --> 38:11.050]  We cannot hear the caller.
[38:11.290 --> 38:12.210]  You can't hear the caller.
[38:12.390 --> 38:12.610]  Wow.
[38:13.430 --> 38:14.930]  Yet another variable here.
[38:15.550 --> 38:15.850]  Okay.
[38:16.530 --> 38:17.790]  But you can hear me calling.
[38:17.790 --> 38:18.550]  You can hear me, Emmanuel.
[38:18.910 --> 38:19.450]  I hear you.
[38:19.750 --> 38:21.070]  No, I can't hear me.
[38:21.130 --> 38:21.430]  There you are.
[38:21.690 --> 38:22.390]  Okay, they're good.
[38:22.590 --> 38:23.310]  Now I can hear the caller.
[38:23.570 --> 38:25.230]  My microphone is cut out now.
[38:25.570 --> 38:25.690]  Wait.
[38:26.290 --> 38:26.570]  Okay.
[38:26.750 --> 38:27.730]  Something happened with my level.
[38:28.930 --> 38:30.630]  Can you hear me now, caller?
[38:32.030 --> 38:33.170]  I can hear you now.
[38:33.370 --> 38:33.490]  You can.
[38:33.630 --> 38:33.810]  Okay.
[38:34.290 --> 38:35.490]  Rob, can you hear the caller?
[38:36.130 --> 38:37.330]  I can hear the caller, yes.
[38:37.450 --> 38:37.590]  Okay.
[38:37.810 --> 38:39.490]  And caller, you heard Rob just now.
[38:40.810 --> 38:41.710]  I heard Rob.
[38:41.850 --> 38:42.090]  Okay.
[38:42.090 --> 38:42.830]  Let us begin.
[38:43.010 --> 38:45.090]  We can actually have a conversation.
[38:45.550 --> 38:46.670]  How is Denmark?
[38:46.910 --> 38:47.570]  Just be gentle.
[38:48.970 --> 38:50.130]  Oh, Denmark is good.
[38:50.310 --> 38:53.250]  It's a little bit windy, but not that cold.
[38:53.890 --> 38:54.450]  Uh-huh.
[38:54.450 --> 38:58.170]  It's about six or seven degrees Celsius grade here.
[38:58.530 --> 38:58.970]  Okay.
[38:58.970 --> 39:02.330]  That's kind of warm for winter, but I don't know what's normal in Denmark.
[39:02.630 --> 39:02.830]  Yeah.
[39:04.250 --> 39:07.970]  Oh, we go down to minus 20 degrees Celsius grade.
[39:08.830 --> 39:09.390]  Wow.
[39:09.510 --> 39:09.770]  Yeah.
[39:09.870 --> 39:10.950]  You know, I kind of prefer that.
[39:11.610 --> 39:13.970]  I like it to be cold in the wintertime.
[39:13.970 --> 39:15.050]  I think that's appropriate.
[39:15.870 --> 39:16.710]  Oh, yeah.
[39:17.090 --> 39:25.510]  And what happened good here in 2022 is that I finally got my house built.
[39:25.930 --> 39:26.630]  Oh, wow.
[39:26.910 --> 39:27.130]  Okay.
[39:28.010 --> 39:28.310]  Congratulations.
[39:29.030 --> 39:32.270]  I've been living in a camper trailer for 12 years, saving up.
[39:32.690 --> 39:33.290]  Wow.
[39:33.550 --> 39:33.710]  Whoa.
[39:33.990 --> 39:34.990]  That's awesome.
[39:35.190 --> 39:37.850]  Did you design the place and what was involved?
[39:38.370 --> 39:38.970]  No.
[39:38.970 --> 39:40.130]  The house, the home you built.
[39:41.950 --> 39:42.550]  Sorry?
[39:42.550 --> 39:49.450]  Did you design it or what was involved in that process of saving and planning this for so long?
[39:49.590 --> 39:50.370]  Oh, I designed it.
[39:51.230 --> 39:56.730]  Actually, I started in 21, but I had to wait 10 months for the permit.
[39:57.270 --> 39:57.730]  Uh-huh.
[39:59.470 --> 40:06.510]  So, and it's actually, the roof system is made from a North American bracket system.
[40:06.510 --> 40:07.550]  It's a dome roof.
[40:08.410 --> 40:08.990]  Okay.
[40:10.170 --> 40:10.450]  Mm-hmm.
[40:11.070 --> 40:24.750]  So, and now I finally got a place where I can invite a lot of people that I repair electronics and it's a little bit of hacking, you know, fixing stuff and making it better and so on.
[40:25.350 --> 40:26.230]  That's great.
[40:26.390 --> 40:26.610]  Wow.
[40:27.250 --> 40:27.710]  Brilliant.
[40:27.950 --> 40:30.150]  What was it like living in a trailer for 12 years?
[40:33.110 --> 40:34.350]  It was okay.
[40:34.350 --> 40:37.150]  It was a little bit cold in the winter.
[40:37.410 --> 40:37.710]  Uh-huh.
[40:38.190 --> 40:41.130]  Waking up and need to get the wood fire going and so on.
[40:42.210 --> 40:42.550]  Wow.
[40:43.430 --> 40:45.390]  Was it a problem finding a place?
[40:45.470 --> 40:48.650]  Was it a problem finding a place for you to park your trailer?
[40:50.610 --> 40:51.110]  No.
[40:51.290 --> 40:53.850]  Actually, I live in an eco-village.
[40:54.270 --> 40:54.770]  Okay.
[40:55.090 --> 40:56.290]  Called Freeland.
[40:57.830 --> 40:59.050]  I think I've heard of it.
[41:00.590 --> 41:03.850]  Yeah, it's pretty known.
[41:04.250 --> 41:05.850]  It's alternative buildings.
[41:06.150 --> 41:06.510]  Uh-huh.
[41:07.670 --> 41:09.590]  So, it's a straw bale house.
[41:09.890 --> 41:14.650]  The ground floor walls are compacted straw in a wooden frame.
[41:15.770 --> 41:16.350]  Wow.
[41:16.670 --> 41:18.710]  So, but it's half a meter thick.
[41:18.910 --> 41:21.750]  So, it's pretty thick.
[41:22.050 --> 41:23.130]  One and a half feet.
[41:23.330 --> 41:23.910]  That's great.
[41:25.570 --> 41:26.990]  But well insulated.
[41:27.270 --> 41:30.930]  So, I'm happy to get into the house this Christmas.
[41:31.950 --> 41:32.550]  Yeah.
[41:32.730 --> 41:38.290]  And making it really, the interior, a proper home for yourself.
[41:38.490 --> 41:42.010]  That itself will just moving in and getting comfortable.
[41:42.390 --> 41:48.630]  And you'll probably spend lots of time changing things and making it just right for you going forward.
[41:48.790 --> 41:50.170]  But that's so, so exciting.
[41:50.170 --> 42:03.770]  And I think a lot of people really, they love that story because the idea of raising a building yourself and having a place to call home like that, it's, it's getting hard for people.
[42:03.890 --> 42:04.290]  It's rare.
[42:05.250 --> 42:06.690]  People renting so much.
[42:07.030 --> 42:07.050]  Oh yeah.
[42:07.190 --> 42:07.490]  Oh yeah.
[42:07.750 --> 42:09.290]  And finding...
[42:09.290 --> 42:12.830]  Also, the material prices have gone up.
[42:13.030 --> 42:13.090]  Yeah.
[42:13.270 --> 42:15.490]  Finding ways to live in enclaves like that.
[42:15.630 --> 42:16.470]  It's important.
[42:16.790 --> 42:19.110]  So, that's interesting and incredible.
[42:20.490 --> 42:21.030]  Accomplish.
[42:21.270 --> 42:21.450]  Oh yeah.
[42:21.450 --> 42:29.510]  But it's good that I finally got space for people that come with their computers or amplifiers or whatever electronics they want to have repaired.
[42:30.270 --> 42:30.490]  Uh huh.
[42:30.850 --> 42:35.610]  So, they come for a cup of tea and we sit down and talk about it.
[42:35.810 --> 42:41.050]  And I find them cheap, parts cheap online and yeah.
[42:41.690 --> 42:44.110]  Now, are you, are you near Copenhagen?
[42:46.590 --> 42:51.950]  Uh, I'm about two to three hundred kilometers from Copenhagen.
[42:52.170 --> 42:52.330]  Okay.
[42:52.350 --> 42:53.470]  So, not very close at all.
[42:53.730 --> 42:54.300]  Um, but...
[42:55.070 --> 42:55.750]  No, no.
[42:55.950 --> 42:58.110]  It's, it's on the other side of the country.
[42:58.310 --> 43:00.910]  It's, uh, Sealand and I'm in Jutland.
[43:01.090 --> 43:01.530]  Got it.
[43:01.610 --> 43:01.830]  Okay.
[43:01.850 --> 43:02.630]  Just at the nose.
[43:03.350 --> 43:06.170]  Now, uh, they have a hacker camp in Denmark.
[43:06.170 --> 43:07.330]  Have you been part of that?
[43:09.030 --> 43:09.750]  No, no.
[43:10.070 --> 43:12.350]  Sadly, I, I don't come around much.
[43:13.390 --> 43:16.750]  People mostly come to me with, with, uh, electronics and so on.
[43:16.870 --> 43:17.250]  I see.
[43:17.350 --> 43:17.570]  Okay.
[43:18.370 --> 43:22.110]  So, if, if, if you have broken electronics in Denmark, you're the guy to go to.
[43:24.870 --> 43:27.790]  Well, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm one of the guys.
[43:29.150 --> 43:34.870]  So, I, I support the local area with fixing stuff and so on for cheap.
[43:35.470 --> 43:35.550]  Uh huh.
[43:35.810 --> 43:42.330]  I'm kind of like, it's sad that they kind of like, if something is broken, they just toss it out and go out and buy something new.
[43:43.370 --> 43:45.430]  It's way cheaper to prepare.
[43:45.650 --> 43:47.050]  It cost a couple of dollars.
[43:47.590 --> 43:56.070]  It's so important just to, yeah, the resources, the cost to put in energy to create a material like that.
[43:56.250 --> 44:03.830]  And then to just have it thrown is, it's great for the bottom line of a company, but the society that those products are put into suffer.
[44:04.070 --> 44:11.550]  People don't have the, the, the function that they're, they're, they're needing in their lives from whatever these things are.
[44:11.670 --> 44:13.530]  And we end up with more waste.
[44:13.830 --> 44:21.490]  And, um, like you're saying, this cheap repair does a world of good for someone and extends the, the, the cost of those materials.
[44:23.990 --> 44:24.830]  Oh yeah.
[44:25.170 --> 44:25.450]  Oh yeah.
[44:26.410 --> 44:34.350]  But we, we've got a good recycling center here nearby where people, they find stuff and they come by with it and so on.
[44:36.370 --> 44:42.430]  So it's, it's, you can, if you can recycle it, you can have it for free down there.
[44:44.330 --> 44:45.170]  Very cool.
[44:45.470 --> 44:45.610]  Wow.
[44:45.970 --> 44:48.010]  So that, that's pretty cool.
[44:48.410 --> 44:48.730]  Uh huh.
[44:48.730 --> 44:48.750]  Yeah.
[44:49.330 --> 44:50.610]  And how long have you been?
[44:50.770 --> 44:50.870]  Yeah.
[44:51.710 --> 44:52.230]  Go ahead.
[44:52.810 --> 44:52.970]  Yeah.
[44:53.990 --> 44:54.490]  Go ahead.
[44:56.350 --> 44:58.950]  Uh, I also want to say thank you for your program.
[44:59.190 --> 45:02.470]  I've been listening for about 20, 25 years now.
[45:02.570 --> 45:03.730]  Well, that was actually my question.
[45:03.730 --> 45:05.570]  I was going to ask how long you've been listening to off the hook.
[45:05.670 --> 45:05.750]  Wow.
[45:05.850 --> 45:06.610]  25 years.
[45:08.450 --> 45:08.970]  Yeah.
[45:09.190 --> 45:14.030]  It was one of my old friend, uh, death that, uh, got me into it.
[45:14.270 --> 45:21.090]  He, he, he, uh, had some, uh, on a CD, some, uh, shows and I found it online and so on.
[45:21.090 --> 45:24.870]  Um, it was about in year 2000 or something like that.
[45:25.070 --> 45:25.430]  Uh huh.
[45:26.410 --> 45:26.870]  Wow.
[45:27.410 --> 45:35.990]  So, and it, it's, you really good entertainment and also good information about different things and so on.
[45:36.170 --> 45:39.770]  And I liked, uh, listening to the podcast and so on.
[45:40.170 --> 45:41.550]  Well, that's, that's so great to hear.
[45:41.630 --> 45:42.210]  It really is.
[45:42.210 --> 45:49.170]  It's a, it's a little bit late over here, so it's not every day that I stay up to 2am in the morning.
[45:49.670 --> 45:53.850]  It's funny because, you know, we, we get a lot of calls from where it's really late.
[45:53.910 --> 45:56.690]  We get calls from Bulgaria, from the United Kingdom, Denmark.
[45:57.690 --> 46:00.270]  So it's, um, it's, it's really nice.
[46:00.490 --> 46:00.850]  Yeah.
[46:00.930 --> 46:04.150]  Real treat when people do stay up and, uh, get in touch with us.
[46:04.410 --> 46:06.170]  So thanks so much for listening.
[46:06.170 --> 46:11.010]  And we really, we love, uh, getting feedback and, uh, keeps us going.
[46:11.010 --> 46:18.530]  Keeps, keeps us interested and curious in, in what's on the horizon and figuring out what, what kind of crazy things are coming our way.
[46:18.730 --> 46:22.750]  So we, we love to, to hear that from, from people that, that appreciate us.
[46:24.590 --> 46:25.430]  Oh, you're welcome.
[46:26.350 --> 46:29.390]  And, uh, we, we hope to make it over to Denmark again sometime soon.
[46:29.410 --> 46:30.230]  I've been there a few times.
[46:30.350 --> 46:30.550]  Yeah.
[46:30.730 --> 46:31.270]  I'd love to go back.
[46:31.270 --> 46:31.550]  Yeah.
[46:31.590 --> 46:32.730]  You're welcome to stop by.
[46:33.210 --> 46:36.070]  And we'll bring, we'll bring some electronic equipment if it's broken.
[46:36.230 --> 46:36.810]  Or components.
[46:37.450 --> 46:38.190]  No problem.
[46:38.670 --> 46:40.350]  I probably got the spare parts.
[46:40.350 --> 46:41.970]  What can you, can you, Oh, you got them.
[46:42.210 --> 46:44.630]  Can you give us an example of something typical you might be fixing?
[46:46.910 --> 46:56.030]  Oh, an amplifier or, uh, a, uh, a plug for, uh, the power into a computer or maybe a hard drive.
[46:56.370 --> 47:01.730]  I got a little clean room where I can take it apart and, uh, put the discs over in another.
[47:02.890 --> 47:03.370]  Transplant.
[47:03.630 --> 47:04.490]  Chassis and so on.
[47:04.490 --> 47:05.210]  Cool, cool.
[47:05.390 --> 47:05.550]  Wow.
[47:05.670 --> 47:07.250]  That's like, that's good stuff.
[47:07.370 --> 47:11.350]  Just, uh, make a designated spot and someone needs it.
[47:11.470 --> 47:15.690]  You can get in there and, and do what they might not be able to do on their kitchen counter.
[47:18.450 --> 47:25.730]  Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's small, precise work, but, uh, I've done a couple of them.
[47:26.510 --> 47:32.720]  So, but, uh, otherwise just, uh, electronics that's broken or, yeah.
[47:32.720 --> 47:33.360]  Uh, yeah.
[47:34.120 --> 47:42.240]  And, uh, we'll try to get the parts and regulators and whatever and, uh, try to help people out.
[47:43.440 --> 47:43.840]  Wow.
[47:44.220 --> 47:45.100]  Now, what was your name again?
[47:47.120 --> 47:47.520]  Jacob.
[47:47.940 --> 47:48.160]  Jacob.
[47:48.360 --> 47:48.460]  Okay.
[47:48.660 --> 47:53.320]  Jacob, um, uh, does anybody in the Skype line have any questions for our call with Jacob?
[47:53.500 --> 47:54.260]  Alex, it looks like you do.
[47:55.140 --> 47:55.940]  Yeah, Jacob.
[47:56.120 --> 47:56.420]  Thank you.
[47:56.800 --> 47:57.200]  Sorry.
[47:57.360 --> 47:58.320]  Thank you so much for the call.
[47:58.320 --> 48:17.800]  I'm wondering, you know, given your, your, your line of work and your, your constant repairing of, uh, electronic equipment, do you, do you have any thoughts on the, the right to repair, the right to essentially get under the hood and, and try to figure out and understand how these technologies work?
[48:17.800 --> 48:25.720]  Like what we were talking about earlier and Kyle had brought up as one of his, uh, I think fondest stories and, and predictions for 2023.
[48:27.960 --> 48:31.160]  I think everybody should have the right to repair.
[48:31.960 --> 48:35.920]  They should at least try themselves and, uh, but do it safely.
[48:36.540 --> 48:40.360]  You know, it's, it's, uh, it's, um, electric.
[48:40.880 --> 48:48.760]  So, uh, there's some hazards to it, but, uh, third part repair shops and so on.
[48:48.760 --> 48:56.240]  They should just should definitely be legal and kind of like free the schematics on it and so on.
[48:56.440 --> 48:57.500]  Make, make a large database.
[48:57.500 --> 49:02.960]  So people, they can get the knowledge that they need to know to repair it properly.
[49:03.700 --> 49:05.100]  I, yeah, fully agree.
[49:05.240 --> 49:09.520]  Like just some system, some mechanism for like schematics, service repair.
[49:09.520 --> 49:15.960]  If you have people sign up, whatever you want to do to manage it and, uh, build in that to the cost of the production of the stuff.
[49:17.660 --> 49:18.220]  Yeah.
[49:18.600 --> 49:18.680]  Yeah.
[49:18.960 --> 49:19.280]  Yeah.
[49:19.840 --> 49:29.120]  Also the EU have, have, uh, they kind of like, uh, if you produce a product, I can't remember if it's all products and so on.
[49:29.580 --> 49:34.120]  This, you, you also need to produce parts so it can be repaired.
[49:34.900 --> 49:35.420]  Yeah.
[49:36.340 --> 49:37.440]  There's been a law.
[49:37.720 --> 49:43.300]  I think it was 2021 or something like that, where it kind of like went into process.
[49:44.800 --> 49:56.760]  So you, you should be able to get the parts or the, uh, board units or whatever you needed, the components or so on to repair different stuff that's sold in the EU.
[49:58.900 --> 49:59.640]  Go ahead, Alex.
[50:00.820 --> 50:08.180]  You know, you, you had actually answered the question I was about to ask you, which is, you know, what are, what are the local laws there with regard to the right to repair?
[50:08.180 --> 50:20.300]  And it does seem like there is some, at least minor obligation to, to furnish some of the components of, of, uh, of a piece of equipment that would enable somebody to, to repair it, which I think is great.
[50:20.600 --> 50:26.920]  Is, is there any other legislation in Denmark that relates to the, the right to repair?
[50:29.620 --> 50:31.940]  Well, not as far as I know.
[50:31.940 --> 50:39.760]  So, it's kind of like if, if, if you can fix it and it, it works well and don't burn down your house, it's, it's totally acceptable.
[50:42.520 --> 50:43.220]  Fair enough.
[50:44.000 --> 50:44.120]  Yeah.
[50:44.240 --> 50:45.380]  Rob Gila, do you have anything?
[50:46.100 --> 50:46.720]  Go ahead, Alex.
[50:46.780 --> 50:47.520]  Go ahead, Gila, sorry.
[50:48.200 --> 50:48.720]  Go ahead.
[50:49.720 --> 50:50.120]  Yeah.
[50:50.300 --> 50:52.500]  I was, uh, I was wondering, you mentioned amplifiers.
[50:52.500 --> 50:53.880]  Uh, do you make music color?
[50:56.200 --> 50:57.300]  I make music.
[50:57.500 --> 50:57.520]  What?
[50:58.580 --> 50:59.800]  Do you, do you make music?
[51:00.100 --> 51:00.600]  Sorry?
[51:01.200 --> 51:02.400]  I think he's asking.
[51:03.480 --> 51:08.300]  Oh, I, I, I, I, I done a long time ago on, uh, when, when I had an Amiga.
[51:09.360 --> 51:10.100]  Oh, wow.
[51:10.360 --> 51:15.580]  But I got a couple of friends that, that, that, that makes music sampling and, and so on.
[51:15.580 --> 51:21.840]  So, uh, uh, I'm a, I'm educated as an artificial mechanics engineer.
[51:23.260 --> 51:28.280]  And, uh, yeah, it was in, in, in, in the industry.
[51:28.840 --> 51:30.960]  It's mostly, uh, modular based.
[51:31.200 --> 51:36.380]  So if a module breaks and so on, you just toss it out and put in a new module.
[51:37.720 --> 51:47.580]  But, uh, I got the interest in, uh, repairing the modules and so on, but I've been mangling with electronics since it was about 12 or 13 years old.
[51:47.860 --> 51:48.420]  Cool.
[51:49.500 --> 51:49.980]  Wow.
[51:50.620 --> 51:53.880]  Any, uh, words of advice for, uh, young hackers out there?
[51:56.540 --> 52:03.060]  Oh, uh, be safe, but, uh, definitely explore out the opportunities that is available.
[52:05.500 --> 52:06.320]  Sounds good.
[52:06.880 --> 52:11.060]  Jacob, I want to thank you for calling us and, uh, all the best to you over there in Denmark.
[52:11.060 --> 52:17.620]  Please call us again and keep us updated and, uh, definitely would, um, would love to see you in, uh, Denmark sometime next time we're over there.
[52:19.300 --> 52:19.820]  Thank you.
[52:19.960 --> 52:21.400]  And thank you for a great program.
[52:21.660 --> 52:24.060]  And, uh, remember to support WBAI.
[52:24.960 --> 52:25.560]  Thank you.
[52:25.700 --> 52:26.460]  Thank you very much.
[52:26.860 --> 52:28.380]  You have a good night or good morning.
[52:28.780 --> 52:29.380]  Take care.
[52:29.720 --> 52:30.200]  Talk to you soon.
[52:30.400 --> 52:31.080]  Yeah, you too.
[52:31.300 --> 52:31.440]  Bye.
[52:32.820 --> 52:33.180]  Wow.
[52:33.780 --> 52:36.580]  Thank you, Kyle, fixing the phone line so we could have that awesome call.
[52:36.800 --> 52:37.460]  That was a great call.
[52:37.540 --> 52:38.220]  That was a great call.
[52:38.220 --> 52:38.460]  Wow.
[52:38.640 --> 52:41.740]  And thank you old callers for letting a new caller get through.
[52:41.900 --> 52:44.640]  See how, how cool that can be when, when, when you get new voices.
[52:46.580 --> 52:46.940]  Yep.
[52:47.120 --> 52:54.640]  And, and I just want to say too, that I think my first prediction of this show has already come through because I had predicted Kyle.
[52:55.180 --> 52:58.800]  I had said, you know, I have every faith that you will get this thing fixed.
[52:59.040 --> 52:59.500]  Yeah, you did.
[53:00.180 --> 53:01.000]  And you did it.
[53:01.220 --> 53:04.460]  So, you know, was that a prediction for next year or for this year?
[53:05.540 --> 53:07.180]  It was a prediction for this show.
[53:07.480 --> 53:08.020]  Oh, okay.
[53:08.380 --> 53:09.440]  But we got to iron it out.
[53:09.700 --> 53:11.420]  Because I didn't ask for predictions for the show.
[53:11.540 --> 53:12.640]  I asked for predictions for next year.
[53:12.700 --> 53:14.260]  So maybe next time you follow the assignment.
[53:14.260 --> 53:15.680]  I appreciate the vote of confidence.
[53:17.220 --> 53:17.540]  Yeah.
[53:17.760 --> 53:21.000]  So, you know, if that's any indication of all my other predictions.
[53:21.600 --> 53:26.000]  I appreciate that the phone is ringing and we need to pick it up and see who else is out there.
[53:26.140 --> 53:27.100]  Maybe it'll be another new caller.
[53:27.200 --> 53:27.980]  Maybe it'll be an old caller.
[53:28.080 --> 53:28.340]  Good evening.
[53:28.420 --> 53:29.320]  You're on off talk over time.
[53:29.440 --> 53:30.040]  It's a dial tone.
[53:30.200 --> 53:30.660]  How nice.
[53:31.600 --> 53:33.140]  Our old friend, the dial tone.
[53:33.260 --> 53:35.080]  The dial tone just won't let us along, will it?
[53:37.900 --> 53:38.300]  Phones.
[53:38.520 --> 53:39.140]  What would we do without them?
[53:39.220 --> 53:40.280]  Well, we got another call that quickly.
[53:40.500 --> 53:40.820]  Good evening.
[53:40.940 --> 53:41.880]  You're on off the hook over time.
[53:42.420 --> 53:42.820]  Yes.
[53:43.540 --> 53:43.940]  Yes.
[53:43.940 --> 53:45.060]  I'm here, Emmanuel.
[53:45.180 --> 53:45.480]  Okay.
[53:45.480 --> 53:46.520]  It's an old caller.
[53:46.700 --> 53:50.740]  This is Rebel calling us for about the 1,050th time.
[53:51.740 --> 53:52.200]  Of course.
[53:52.320 --> 53:55.000]  I've been listening for like over 25 years.
[53:55.260 --> 53:56.960]  Someone needs to add up all your phone calls.
[53:57.040 --> 53:58.620]  See how many calls you actually have made.
[53:59.080 --> 53:59.880]  That would be interesting.
[53:59.880 --> 54:00.440]  I don't know.
[54:01.440 --> 54:02.240]  Well, anyway...
[54:02.240 --> 54:04.460]  Tell us what's new while we sit back and just relax.
[54:04.700 --> 54:04.840]  Let's see.
[54:05.020 --> 54:05.480]  What's new?
[54:05.540 --> 54:07.960]  Let me go to the notes and just see.
[54:08.520 --> 54:08.920]  Okay.
[54:10.340 --> 54:11.980]  When you call a number...
[54:11.980 --> 54:13.380]  Well, I could three-way to this number.
[54:13.420 --> 54:14.020]  I'll tell you what it does.
[54:14.180 --> 54:16.540]  It doesn't tell you what you're called.
[54:16.540 --> 54:19.760]  And when you press two, this poor company...
[54:19.760 --> 54:23.800]  Listen to what this poor company has to do on their voicemail.
[54:23.980 --> 54:30.780]  Because, you know, scammers are like calling people with this company's phone number.
[54:31.600 --> 54:32.740]  Hold on.
[54:33.220 --> 54:33.980]  Wait a minute.
[54:34.140 --> 54:35.420]  Let me just...
[54:35.420 --> 54:36.460]  See if I can do this.
[54:39.640 --> 54:40.200]  Um...
[54:40.200 --> 54:40.980]  All right.
[54:41.060 --> 54:41.620]  You want to hold?
[54:41.760 --> 54:42.380]  Hold on.
[54:43.360 --> 54:44.600]  I'm going to add a call.
[54:58.080 --> 54:59.560]  This live holding action.
[55:02.680 --> 55:03.220]  Holding.
[55:04.580 --> 55:05.780]  I'm just relaxing.
[55:06.800 --> 55:07.100]  Calling.
[55:07.460 --> 55:10.140]  Schedule a new service or appointment to press one.
[55:10.280 --> 55:11.460]  We're here, but we're trying to relax.
[55:12.920 --> 55:14.220]  Thank you for calling.
[55:14.480 --> 55:14.920]  Hello.
[55:15.200 --> 55:19.660]  We apologize that you are receiving these calls, but they are not originating from our office.
[55:20.080 --> 55:25.840]  Please either block this number or place it on the do not call list while we resolve this with our carrier company.
[55:25.840 --> 55:27.640]  Sorry for the inconvenience.
[55:28.540 --> 55:34.080]  What do you think that poor company has to do to, you know, because scammers are using that company?
[55:34.580 --> 55:40.940]  Due to telephone company facility trouble in the area you are calling, your call cannot be completed at this time.
[55:41.120 --> 55:42.500]  Please try your call later.
[55:43.580 --> 55:44.120]  078P.
[55:44.360 --> 55:45.880]  What's, what's, what's the big deal?
[55:46.060 --> 55:47.300]  What's, what's going on here?
[55:48.320 --> 55:49.180]  I don't know.
[55:49.420 --> 55:50.320]  That poor company...
[55:50.320 --> 55:51.440]  Weird recording you're playing.
[55:51.660 --> 55:51.920]  People call...
[55:53.200 --> 55:55.300]  Your party is not answering.
[55:55.300 --> 55:55.860]  All right.
[55:56.000 --> 55:56.820]  Please try your call later.
[55:57.040 --> 55:57.360]  All right.
[55:57.360 --> 55:59.660]  We're sorry, but your call will now be disconnected.
[56:00.320 --> 56:00.620]  078P.
[56:00.620 --> 56:00.760]  Okay.
[56:00.880 --> 56:03.860]  You could disconnect because, as long as it's a manual, it's not disconnected.
[56:04.000 --> 56:05.120]  I don't know what's going on.
[56:05.180 --> 56:08.380]  The operator just keeps barging in here, saying all kinds of nonsense.
[56:09.560 --> 56:11.880]  That's the, uh, the, uh, AT&T recording.
[56:12.100 --> 56:13.240]  You might have recognized that.
[56:13.260 --> 56:15.660]  The phone-free number you have dialed has been disconnected.
[56:15.980 --> 56:19.100]  No further information is available about this number.
[56:20.280 --> 56:20.800]  074T.
[56:22.840 --> 56:23.360]  Okay.
[56:23.780 --> 56:25.100]  Now, dead people...
[56:25.100 --> 56:26.360]  Your call did not go through.
[56:26.680 --> 56:27.600]  Please try your call...
[56:28.940 --> 56:32.000]  All circuits at the location you are calling are been...
[56:33.520 --> 56:34.100]  All right.
[56:34.200 --> 56:35.400]  Let's call another number.
[56:35.760 --> 56:39.460]  Due to the emergency in the area you are calling, your call cannot be completed at this time.
[56:39.720 --> 56:40.980]  Please try your call later.
[56:42.040 --> 56:42.560]  078P.
[56:43.360 --> 56:43.760]  Hold on.
[56:43.760 --> 56:44.500]  Hold on.
[56:44.980 --> 56:45.960]  What's going on here?
[56:46.000 --> 56:46.600]  I'm so confused.
[56:46.920 --> 56:49.120]  This is going to turn into a Negative Lance song, like...
[56:49.120 --> 56:49.740]  At some point.
[56:49.860 --> 56:50.360]  It already is.
[56:50.480 --> 56:51.860]  I'm probably recording it as we speak.
[56:52.040 --> 56:52.140]  Mm-hmm.
[57:01.060 --> 57:02.180]  9 to continue.
[57:03.280 --> 57:03.480]  Okay.
[57:03.480 --> 57:04.480]  Press 9 to get in.
[57:04.480 --> 57:05.040]  Are you there?
[57:06.280 --> 57:07.250]  Unfortunately, I am.
[57:07.600 --> 57:08.460]  Press 9 to continue.
[57:08.840 --> 57:09.120]  9.
[57:09.460 --> 57:09.820]  Oh, wait.
[57:09.900 --> 57:10.120]  Thank you.
[57:10.360 --> 57:11.880]  This call may be recorded.
[57:12.400 --> 57:13.680]  What did I call though?
[57:13.900 --> 57:15.620]  I don't know, but you better not record me.
[57:15.710 --> 57:17.000]  I don't, I don't consent to this.
[57:17.780 --> 57:19.020]  No, I'm not recording it.
[57:19.020 --> 57:20.120]  I'm three-waying you.
[57:20.840 --> 57:23.820]  If I find out you recorded this, there'll be hell to pay.
[57:25.980 --> 57:26.460]  Hell.
[57:26.460 --> 57:27.900]  Don't you record all the shows anyway?
[57:28.180 --> 57:29.040]  That's not the point.
[57:30.080 --> 57:30.280]  Okay.
[57:30.360 --> 57:32.400]  By the way, this is a 9901 number.
[57:32.520 --> 57:33.920]  You have to borrow audiology clinic.
[57:34.300 --> 57:36.080]  Our hours are 9 a.m.
[57:36.230 --> 57:37.160]  to 5 p.m.
[57:37.400 --> 57:38.420]  Monday through Friday.
[57:38.420 --> 57:41.540]  Why in the name of heaven, Rebel, are we calling a clinic?
[57:42.560 --> 57:43.040]  Okay.
[57:43.230 --> 57:47.000]  Now that's, that's 718 something 9901.
[57:47.000 --> 57:51.020]  Is your point that 9901 is sometimes not used by the phone company?
[57:51.140 --> 57:51.860]  Because we know that.
[57:52.200 --> 57:53.460]  And in fact, we've talked about that before.
[57:54.340 --> 57:54.700]  Right.
[57:54.700 --> 57:59.160]  And now Frontier Airlines does not have customer service, phone customer service anymore.
[57:59.480 --> 58:00.280]  No airline does.
[58:00.440 --> 58:01.420]  They, they all suck.
[58:02.380 --> 58:03.210]  No, they do.
[58:03.320 --> 58:03.710]  I mean, no.
[58:03.860 --> 58:08.400]  I mean, they have, but Frontier Airlines doesn't have, they say, oh, does the French reach front?
[58:08.400 --> 58:09.620]  I heard this on the news story.
[58:10.580 --> 58:12.580]  Please text us or go to our website.
[58:12.860 --> 58:15.340]  Now you got to text them or go to their website.
[58:15.440 --> 58:15.540]  Yeah.
[58:15.580 --> 58:18.640]  They don't want to talk to you because their customers are always hostile towards them.
[58:18.840 --> 58:18.960]  You know?
[58:19.100 --> 58:21.200]  So they, they don't want to have those hostile conversations.
[58:21.200 --> 58:23.160]  So they don't speak to any customers anymore.
[58:23.250 --> 58:24.560]  And hopefully they won't have any soon.
[58:25.460 --> 58:33.320]  You know, I wish, I wish Bernie F was here because I'm thinking about going to like citizens band radio, like, you know, like handheld radios.
[58:34.060 --> 58:36.480]  I don't think anything's stopping you from doing that.
[58:37.480 --> 58:37.880]  Right.
[58:37.960 --> 58:43.210]  But it's, I'm just wondering, you know, like how things work and like, you know, what, what's the best one to get and things like that.
[58:44.480 --> 58:44.880]  Yeah.
[58:45.080 --> 58:47.200]  But get a, get a, uh, uh, Fisher price.
[58:48.200 --> 58:52.040]  Um, no, cause they only have a quarter mile range.
[58:52.040 --> 58:52.540]  Yeah.
[58:52.540 --> 58:53.600]  Remember the radio shack ones.
[58:54.980 --> 58:55.320]  Okay.
[58:55.320 --> 58:56.040]  Again, we're good radio.
[58:56.700 --> 58:59.200]  You know, uh, Harris, over Harris.
[58:59.640 --> 58:59.840]  Yeah.
[58:59.880 --> 59:00.660]  You want a Harris.
[59:03.750 --> 59:07.020]  Um, what about, um, uh, FM radio?
[59:07.320 --> 59:08.140]  You know, what is this?
[59:08.230 --> 59:09.480]  FM is going on CB.
[59:10.100 --> 59:11.560]  FM is going on CB.
[59:12.620 --> 59:13.060]  Yeah.
[59:13.210 --> 59:17.080]  That's the CB radio was on AM mode.
[59:17.300 --> 59:21.000]  You're telling me that we're going to hear truckers in full stereo sound.
[59:21.500 --> 59:22.400]  With high fidelity.
[59:22.750 --> 59:22.800]  No, no.
[59:22.820 --> 59:26.640]  I mean, well, it's not, but it's to prevent interference.
[59:26.640 --> 59:30.520]  Like, like when you go under an overpass on, um, you know, AM.
[59:30.680 --> 59:30.710]  Yeah.
[59:30.750 --> 59:34.750]  Like you, sometimes he would be listening to an AM station and you go under an overpass.
[59:34.880 --> 59:40.180]  It would like fade out until you, you, you know, cross, you know, not under the overpass.
[59:40.360 --> 59:40.500]  Right.
[59:40.500 --> 59:41.600]  FM does not do that.
[59:41.800 --> 59:42.480]  That's true.
[59:43.780 --> 59:48.320]  But, um, I don't know if that's really a major issue on CB.
[59:49.770 --> 59:58.180]  Well, I mean, like, I guess to, to, for that interference from like, you know, like, uh, buildings and like the hills and stuff, maybe that's why they did it.
[59:58.340 --> 59:59.320]  It's, it's possible.
[01:00:01.230 --> 01:00:07.900]  You are returning a call to a prepaid calling service system and the party that called you cannot be reached at this number.
[01:00:15.210 --> 01:00:16.500]  It's off the hook on CB.
[01:00:17.860 --> 01:00:22.980]  You can't, you can't broadcast a radio show on CB.
[01:00:23.750 --> 01:00:24.780]  That's what you think.
[01:00:24.980 --> 01:00:25.320]  No, no, no.
[01:00:25.460 --> 01:00:26.320]  That's it's after that.
[01:00:26.480 --> 01:00:27.730]  No, it's just the frequency.
[01:00:28.160 --> 01:00:29.100]  Just holding the button that long.
[01:00:29.250 --> 01:00:30.080]  Your thumb would turn blue.
[01:00:30.080 --> 01:00:32.180]  Your limited view of the world.
[01:00:32.500 --> 01:00:32.600]  Yeah.
[01:00:32.960 --> 01:00:33.300]  Yeah.
[01:00:33.520 --> 01:00:34.000]  Some people do it.
[01:00:34.020 --> 01:00:34.300]  Actually.
[01:00:34.480 --> 01:00:35.540]  I've heard, you know, some people.
[01:00:35.710 --> 01:00:41.440]  You just get thousands of truckers to hold the button for an hour once a week.
[01:00:41.700 --> 01:00:42.960]  What's the problem with that?
[01:00:44.880 --> 01:00:46.420]  Rebel, uh, this has been fun.
[01:00:46.500 --> 01:00:49.620]  Is there anything else you'd like to, um, uh, to conclude with?
[01:00:49.730 --> 01:00:49.900]  Yeah.
[01:00:50.040 --> 01:00:51.230]  I miss pay phone.
[01:00:51.380 --> 01:00:56.340]  You know, you were talking about pay phones and you know, that pay phone's still there at the, uh, Rockefeller center subway station.
[01:00:56.340 --> 01:00:57.250]  So we keep hearing.
[01:00:58.540 --> 01:01:00.900]  And, uh, when I call, and operators are still there.
[01:01:01.040 --> 01:01:01.250]  I care.
[01:01:01.380 --> 01:01:04.460]  Oh, I went to a phone that I know that, you know, is a Verizon phone.
[01:01:04.620 --> 01:01:05.380]  It's a business line.
[01:01:05.730 --> 01:01:10.320]  And I, it's a regular, like, you know, single line phone.
[01:01:10.620 --> 01:01:12.040]  It's not like a PBX or anything.
[01:01:12.200 --> 01:01:14.390]  And I dialed 411 and I got information.
[01:01:15.160 --> 01:01:17.600]  I mean, it says, you know, local and national 411.
[01:01:17.840 --> 01:01:18.080]  What city?
[01:01:18.250 --> 01:01:19.250]  And I just press zero.
[01:01:19.520 --> 01:01:21.160]  And then I got a real person.
[01:01:21.320 --> 01:01:23.380]  Well, here, here's, here's an assignment for you Rebel.
[01:01:23.380 --> 01:01:27.400]  And that next show that we do in two weeks, how about you call us from that pay phone?
[01:01:27.620 --> 01:01:29.140]  In fact, we'll give you the toll free number.
[01:01:29.360 --> 01:01:29.540]  I'm not going to be here.
[01:01:29.640 --> 01:01:32.860]  I'm going to be in, I think I'll be in California then or Florida or something like that.
[01:01:32.980 --> 01:01:34.200]  That's really inconsiderate.
[01:01:34.300 --> 01:01:34.460]  Okay.
[01:01:34.620 --> 01:01:35.940]  Well then how about the week after that?
[01:01:36.820 --> 01:01:38.100]  The week after that maybe.
[01:01:38.420 --> 01:01:41.840]  Um, but I'm going to the 2600 meeting in Arizona next week.
[01:01:41.980 --> 01:01:43.280]  Well, not on a Wednesday night.
[01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:43.700]  You're not.
[01:01:44.280 --> 01:01:45.250]  It'd be awfully early.
[01:01:45.520 --> 01:01:45.710]  Friday.
[01:01:46.230 --> 01:01:46.780]  Well, right.
[01:01:47.210 --> 01:01:48.620]  We're asking you to call on a Wednesday.
[01:01:50.390 --> 01:01:52.860]  And there's no place to have 2600 meetings on a Wednesday.
[01:01:54.040 --> 01:01:54.360]  Yeah.
[01:01:54.400 --> 01:01:55.400]  But he's going to travel.
[01:01:55.600 --> 01:01:57.000]  I mean, that, that takes time.
[01:01:57.230 --> 01:01:57.820]  That's his concern.
[01:01:58.040 --> 01:01:58.360]  Right.
[01:01:58.540 --> 01:01:58.660]  Right.
[01:01:58.780 --> 01:02:00.940]  He's letting us know that he can't make it.
[01:02:01.300 --> 01:02:01.800]  Why not?
[01:02:01.940 --> 01:02:02.780]  To call in on the show.
[01:02:03.000 --> 01:02:05.230]  Next, not this Friday, a week from Friday.
[01:02:05.320 --> 01:02:06.940]  Cause not this Friday is the 26th.
[01:02:07.020 --> 01:02:07.460]  No, wait a minute.
[01:02:07.660 --> 01:02:07.900]  Yes.
[01:02:08.210 --> 01:02:09.200]  I don't care about Friday.
[01:02:09.620 --> 01:02:10.840]  We're talking about Wednesdays.
[01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:12.730]  He'll fit us in when he can.
[01:02:13.250 --> 01:02:14.500]  Well, that's what I'm asking him to do.
[01:02:14.930 --> 01:02:17.900]  And at the end of the month, then I'll, uh, you know.
[01:02:18.060 --> 01:02:19.580]  You know, Rebel, you keep up with this attitude.
[01:02:19.710 --> 01:02:20.780]  There's not gonna be a pay phone left.
[01:02:22.750 --> 01:02:25.100]  They're being purged in case you haven't heard.
[01:02:25.360 --> 01:02:26.860]  You know, they were talking about pay phones.
[01:02:27.250 --> 01:02:29.680]  You know, they were saying about the city pay phones and municipal.
[01:02:30.060 --> 01:02:31.000]  Those are not...
[01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:35.360]  Remember when pay phones were run by like 9X and, and, you know, Verizon and all that?
[01:02:35.560 --> 01:02:35.730]  Yes.
[01:02:35.800 --> 01:02:36.400]  The phone company.
[01:02:37.250 --> 01:02:37.640]  Yeah.
[01:02:37.750 --> 01:02:38.280]  I remember that.
[01:02:38.280 --> 01:02:46.020]  It became like, you know, the Verizon got out of the pay phone business and, you know, and it, you know, sold it to the private companies.
[01:02:46.180 --> 01:02:46.280]  Right.
[01:02:47.730 --> 01:02:48.980]  We're all living in the same world.
[01:02:49.060 --> 01:02:49.710]  We all know these things.
[01:02:49.840 --> 01:02:49.960]  Yes.
[01:02:50.060 --> 01:02:51.280]  We've, we've, we've witnessed this.
[01:02:51.400 --> 01:02:59.460]  We've commented on it for, for, for years now, but there is a pay phone still at Rockefeller Center in the subway station, I believe.
[01:02:59.460 --> 01:03:01.500]  And, um, hopefully we can use it sometime.
[01:03:01.980 --> 01:03:13.120]  You could call, but you cannot dial one, like at the pay, at the regular phone that I, um, was mentioning, you could dial one, zero, whatever, NYT or whatever, and get the operator, like, or an operator.
[01:03:13.320 --> 01:03:13.380]  Mm-hmm.
[01:03:13.540 --> 01:03:14.750]  The pay phone, you cannot.
[01:03:14.980 --> 01:03:20.450]  I think if you call from a pay phone to the operator now, it just won't go through because operators are just too...
[01:03:20.980 --> 01:03:21.960]  They don't really do anything.
[01:03:22.060 --> 01:03:26.250]  I said, can I have the rates of calling, you know, 212 or 516 or whatever?
[01:03:26.340 --> 01:03:27.780]  They said, oh, you have to call the business owner.
[01:03:27.780 --> 01:03:31.000]  Remember when the operator used to give you the rates of, you know, calls?
[01:03:31.180 --> 01:03:31.300]  Yeah.
[01:03:31.420 --> 01:03:31.860]  Rate and route.
[01:03:31.940 --> 01:03:33.750]  Rate and route operator is what they were called.
[01:03:34.520 --> 01:03:35.060]  And they were...
[01:03:35.060 --> 01:03:35.300]  No, no, no, no.
[01:03:35.380 --> 01:03:35.840]  I mean, that's...
[01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:36.200]  No.
[01:03:37.250 --> 01:03:38.210]  That's TFTS operators.
[01:03:38.460 --> 01:03:39.160]  How did that work?
[01:03:39.300 --> 01:03:41.230]  Is rate and route and route or rate and route?
[01:03:41.750 --> 01:03:45.700]  It was just one of many, uh, uh, many departments inside the phone company.
[01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:48.160]  You know, you would, you would get a kick out of this on YouTube.
[01:03:48.160 --> 01:03:53.480]  You can find all these old films that were made by the phone company from the 1940s, the 1950s.
[01:03:53.730 --> 01:03:54.160]  I see them.
[01:03:54.320 --> 01:03:54.780]  I've seen them.
[01:03:54.780 --> 01:03:55.660]  It's incredible.
[01:03:56.140 --> 01:04:01.460]  I, and listeners, you really should, uh, just go to YouTube and explore and find, find old phone company.
[01:04:01.660 --> 01:04:02.400]  Films are amazing.
[01:04:02.620 --> 01:04:02.780]  Yeah.
[01:04:02.820 --> 01:04:05.600]  Bell system archives has, has a great channel.
[01:04:05.730 --> 01:04:05.880]  Yeah.
[01:04:06.540 --> 01:04:06.580]  Yeah.
[01:04:08.100 --> 01:04:09.040]  It's just me.
[01:04:09.080 --> 01:04:10.200]  Are they a monopoly again?
[01:04:10.200 --> 01:04:11.420]  And we're just not customers.
[01:04:11.860 --> 01:04:17.200]  You know, they're, their customers are all like industry people, but like, they're definitely a monopoly again.
[01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:17.420]  Yeah.
[01:04:17.420 --> 01:04:17.960]  I don't know what they do.
[01:04:18.040 --> 01:04:19.340]  Like divestiture happened.
[01:04:19.400 --> 01:04:27.920]  They got rid of all the businesses that have people as customers, became a monopoly again, and then just made a bunch of ISPs customers.
[01:04:28.300 --> 01:04:28.880]  How's that work?
[01:04:28.880 --> 01:04:31.750]  All I know is they took one company and broke it into what?
[01:04:32.040 --> 01:04:33.230]  Uh, six, seven pieces.
[01:04:33.520 --> 01:04:35.100]  Oh, they make local telephone companies customers.
[01:04:35.160 --> 01:04:37.000]  And they all turned into corporate giants.
[01:04:37.200 --> 01:04:37.340]  Yeah.
[01:04:37.460 --> 01:04:40.160]  And now they're all owned by one big company again.
[01:04:40.160 --> 01:04:40.420]  Right?
[01:04:40.620 --> 01:04:41.140]  Okay.
[01:04:41.140 --> 01:04:41.800]  Just checking.
[01:04:41.800 --> 01:04:44.800]  I just, just want to make sure I had that right.
[01:04:44.900 --> 01:04:45.020]  I remember.
[01:04:45.020 --> 01:04:45.820]  Rebel, this has been fun.
[01:04:46.060 --> 01:04:46.900]  Uh, we must do it again.
[01:04:47.000 --> 01:04:47.600]  Oh, I remember.
[01:04:47.730 --> 01:04:49.080]  I was just going to mention one last thing.
[01:04:49.200 --> 01:04:55.100]  I remember when I was like a kid, like, you know, like in the seventies, um, I used to dial zero.
[01:04:55.300 --> 01:04:58.560]  I used to call the operator and ask her for rates or for something like that.
[01:04:58.660 --> 01:05:04.180]  And I remember a recording that the operator would call into that said rate step one, one or repeat.
[01:05:04.340 --> 01:05:04.440]  Yeah.
[01:05:04.440 --> 01:05:06.100]  It was like a computerized voice.
[01:05:06.620 --> 01:05:12.420]  If you listen to some of our really, really old shows from the early eighties, you'll hear a couple of recordings where that's captured.
[01:05:13.250 --> 01:05:15.060]  You know, it's a rate step.
[01:05:15.420 --> 01:05:17.560]  And then also, how did that work?
[01:05:17.730 --> 01:05:18.160]  What did you do?
[01:05:18.160 --> 01:05:23.080]  Is that just like a thing where they tell her where to look on her, that multi-leaf folder thing?
[01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:25.100]  You know, I'm not an operator.
[01:05:25.250 --> 01:05:26.250]  I wouldn't know the answer to that.
[01:05:26.680 --> 01:05:27.580]  Only an operator would.
[01:05:27.700 --> 01:05:36.400]  And I'm sure there are some operators right now who are gripping the, the, the arms of their rocking chairs as they hear your voice and recognize you from the 1970s when he used to torment them.
[01:05:37.160 --> 01:05:38.480]  And they can answer that question.
[01:05:39.960 --> 01:05:41.460]  Well, another story.
[01:05:41.700 --> 01:05:44.440]  My phone number used to be, begin with a nine.
[01:05:44.900 --> 01:05:48.500]  Like at the end, it would be 9567.
[01:05:48.940 --> 01:05:56.200]  But the phone number for the P phones used to begin with 90, like 9872 9626.
[01:05:56.540 --> 01:06:06.320]  So I remember back in the seventies, when I would call collect to home, the operator would have to call this computer and it'd say, a coin, repeat coin or valid repeat.
[01:06:07.000 --> 01:06:13.500]  Cause that was before, you know, the, the top system where it's a terminal and they know right away, whether it's a coin phone or not.
[01:06:14.890 --> 01:06:15.250]  Interesting.
[01:06:15.680 --> 01:06:15.700]  Interesting.
[01:06:15.700 --> 01:06:15.860]  Yes.
[01:06:16.140 --> 01:06:23.980]  These are all, these are all true facts and, uh, worth remembering, but rather we're going to move on now because, uh, we're going to try for one more phone call.
[01:06:24.580 --> 01:06:24.900]  All right.
[01:06:24.900 --> 01:06:26.000]  So thank you for calling us.
[01:06:26.120 --> 01:06:26.780]  Good hearing from you.
[01:06:26.920 --> 01:06:29.710]  Enjoy wherever you travel to and hope to hear from you from a pay phone someday.
[01:06:31.640 --> 01:06:42.120]  Well, no, it's so much easier to call from a sofa, you know, instead of standing on the cold and a pay phone and, you know, and then worrying about quick, quick, quick, quick, please deposit five cents.
[01:06:43.040 --> 01:06:43.750]  Five cents.
[01:06:43.880 --> 01:06:45.230]  Rebel fades off into the distance.
[01:06:46.460 --> 01:06:47.380]  Thank you for calling.
[01:06:47.520 --> 01:06:48.480]  Let's give out the phone number.
[01:06:49.730 --> 01:06:52.640]  It's eight zero two, three, two, one, four, two, two, five.
[01:06:52.940 --> 01:06:56.520]  If we have one last call to take because we're getting tired.
[01:06:56.800 --> 01:06:58.200]  We've been at this for quite some time now.
[01:06:58.660 --> 01:07:01.280]  Um, this is off the, off the hook over time.
[01:07:02.230 --> 01:07:07.180]  And, um, nobody has anything to say, apparently.
[01:07:07.360 --> 01:07:10.860]  Well, while we're waiting, I'll just say it's, it's been quite a year.
[01:07:11.300 --> 01:07:18.400]  And, uh, you know, I think, uh, I think all of us here at, uh, off the hook at WBAI at Pacifica, we're grateful for all of you.
[01:07:18.400 --> 01:07:31.800]  You out there who continue to welcome us into your homes and your ears and, uh, keep, uh, allowing us to do what we do by going to WBAI, give to WBAI.org and, uh, doing what you can to help us keep going.
[01:07:31.960 --> 01:07:40.300]  It's kind of cool that our voices are transmitted, uh, from, uh, four times square, uh, throughout the whole New York metropolitan area while we do our radio show.
[01:07:40.400 --> 01:07:47.540]  And then right after that, our voices get transmitted over all kinds of other, uh, communication, um, um, uh, pathways.
[01:07:47.540 --> 01:07:52.640]  Um, I guess, um, fiber and, um, copper maybe.
[01:07:53.140 --> 01:07:54.980]  And, and, and through the air.
[01:07:55.380 --> 01:07:55.730]  Microwave.
[01:07:56.080 --> 01:07:56.440]  Microwave.
[01:07:56.840 --> 01:07:57.080]  Yeah.
[01:07:57.620 --> 01:07:58.340]  5G, 6G.
[01:07:58.500 --> 01:07:59.230]  I hear the phone ringing.
[01:07:59.500 --> 01:07:59.680]  Yeah.
[01:07:59.700 --> 01:08:00.210]  You want that?
[01:08:00.320 --> 01:08:00.460]  Yeah.
[01:08:00.460 --> 01:08:00.780]  Why not?
[01:08:00.880 --> 01:08:02.520]  Let's, let's, let's do one more call.
[01:08:02.980 --> 01:08:03.380]  Okay.
[01:08:03.400 --> 01:08:03.730]  Good evening.
[01:08:03.880 --> 01:08:04.580]  You're on off the hook over time.
[01:08:04.660 --> 01:08:04.880]  Go ahead.
[01:08:07.440 --> 01:08:07.840]  Hello.
[01:08:07.840 --> 01:08:08.160]  You there?
[01:08:09.520 --> 01:08:09.920]  Hi.
[01:08:10.250 --> 01:08:11.180]  Hey, what's going on?
[01:08:11.660 --> 01:08:12.230]  Who's this?
[01:08:12.600 --> 01:08:14.230]  Hey, this is Johnny Fusion.
[01:08:14.580 --> 01:08:15.460]  Hey, Johnny Fusion.
[01:08:15.520 --> 01:08:15.900]  How are you doing?
[01:08:17.040 --> 01:08:17.360]  Good.
[01:08:17.520 --> 01:08:19.420]  I'm actually a writer for the magazine.
[01:08:19.720 --> 01:08:21.840]  I've had four articles put in.
[01:08:21.840 --> 01:08:22.600]  Well, congratulations.
[01:08:22.730 --> 01:08:23.400]  That's awesome.
[01:08:23.520 --> 01:08:23.760]  Wow.
[01:08:27.370 --> 01:08:28.830]  And I'm a first time caller.
[01:08:29.890 --> 01:08:30.270]  Uh huh.
[01:08:30.730 --> 01:08:31.910]  And, and where are you calling from?
[01:08:33.190 --> 01:08:35.050]  From the Bay Area in California.
[01:08:35.310 --> 01:08:35.530]  Awesome.
[01:08:35.690 --> 01:08:35.810]  Wow.
[01:08:35.910 --> 01:08:37.210]  We're pretty much covering the globe tonight.
[01:08:37.630 --> 01:08:43.770]  Um, I, I, are you a, um, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, we're trying to bring you up cause you're kind of low.
[01:08:43.770 --> 01:08:45.810]  If you can get closer to the phone, that would be helpful.
[01:08:46.390 --> 01:08:46.490]  Sure.
[01:08:46.650 --> 01:08:47.870]  I can get closer to the phone.
[01:08:48.050 --> 01:08:48.390]  Okay, great.
[01:08:48.970 --> 01:08:51.130]  Um, so, uh, are you a long time listener?
[01:08:52.790 --> 01:08:53.510]  I am.
[01:08:53.810 --> 01:08:55.010]  For, for a couple years.
[01:08:55.210 --> 01:08:55.390]  Uh huh.
[01:08:55.390 --> 01:08:56.010]  A couple years.
[01:08:56.230 --> 01:08:56.410]  Yeah.
[01:08:56.930 --> 01:09:02.170]  Well, I'm mostly a reader of the magazine for like 20 years or so.
[01:09:03.910 --> 01:09:04.510]  Oh, wow.
[01:09:05.390 --> 01:09:06.010]  That's awesome.
[01:09:06.750 --> 01:09:07.990]  Uh, tell us something about your articles.
[01:09:09.850 --> 01:09:13.750]  Um, well, my first article was like 10 years ago.
[01:09:13.750 --> 01:09:15.010]  Uh huh.
[01:09:15.010 --> 01:09:18.330]  About hacking, alt detection and second life.
[01:09:18.690 --> 01:09:22.490]  And then, I did three articles this past year.
[01:09:22.790 --> 01:09:22.990]  Uh huh.
[01:09:23.210 --> 01:09:25.670]  I didn't, um, two were opinion pieces.
[01:09:26.510 --> 01:09:34.810]  One was called, um, something like, I thought the cyberpunk dystopia would be a hacker paradise.
[01:09:35.910 --> 01:09:38.630]  I failed to heed the cautionary tale.
[01:09:38.910 --> 01:09:39.170]  Uh huh.
[01:09:39.350 --> 01:09:42.570]  You know, cause cyberpunk is kind of hip again.
[01:09:43.830 --> 01:09:44.430]  Uh huh.
[01:09:44.430 --> 01:09:51.410]  And, uh, yeah, and we're kind of living in the cyberpunk dystopia and it really sucks.
[01:09:52.290 --> 01:09:52.470]  Yeah.
[01:09:52.670 --> 01:09:52.850]  Yeah.
[01:09:52.990 --> 01:09:53.630]  I can see that.
[01:09:53.910 --> 01:09:54.330]  Absolutely.
[01:09:55.110 --> 01:10:01.410]  And then, and then one I'm kind of embarrassed about, I, I kind of ranted about tick tock activism.
[01:10:01.850 --> 01:10:03.530]  Oh, we need more rants like that.
[01:10:03.830 --> 01:10:06.310]  We, we need people to rant as much as possible about these things.
[01:10:07.410 --> 01:10:24.770]  Yeah, because, um, this is when, um, epic posted that, uh, abortion bounty website, um, the other year, when Texas put that, uh, horrible anti-abortion legislation through.
[01:10:26.070 --> 01:10:26.850]  Mm hmm.
[01:10:27.490 --> 01:10:45.630]  And there was, there was some real hacktivism going on, but then some kid for the lights or something talked about it on tick tock and you know, they saw that and they just made it impossible for anyone else to do any work.
[01:10:45.630 --> 01:10:46.450]  Uh huh.
[01:10:47.390 --> 01:10:55.830]  So, so, uh, instead of doing a well, well intentioned action wound up causing something bad to happen.
[01:10:56.970 --> 01:10:57.450]  Right.
[01:10:57.610 --> 01:11:00.870]  Cause they wanted bragging rights instead of actually getting the work done.
[01:11:01.190 --> 01:11:01.430]  Yeah.
[01:11:01.510 --> 01:11:03.490]  That's, that's a common theme in our communities.
[01:11:03.490 --> 01:11:08.450]  Uh, you know, people who've jumped the gun and try to get bragging rights and wind up making things worse.
[01:11:08.670 --> 01:11:10.170]  It does happen too often.
[01:11:12.150 --> 01:11:12.630]  Yeah.
[01:11:12.630 --> 01:11:12.730]  Yeah.
[01:11:13.130 --> 01:11:18.070]  And so, um, the last article was in the summary issue.
[01:11:19.050 --> 01:11:24.590]  And, um, I actually wrote it last year, like, uh, like September, November.
[01:11:26.090 --> 01:11:27.830]  And then I had a lung transplant.
[01:11:28.590 --> 01:11:29.270]  Oh my God.
[01:11:29.630 --> 01:11:30.030]  Whoa.
[01:11:30.270 --> 01:11:31.290]  That's, that's pretty big.
[01:11:31.410 --> 01:11:38.850]  And then I actually got, I, I got the acceptance email while I was in the ICU recovering from the lung transplant.
[01:11:39.130 --> 01:11:39.450]  Wow.
[01:11:39.910 --> 01:11:42.270]  I'm amazed you got email in the ICU.
[01:11:44.190 --> 01:11:52.930]  Well, I had my phone, you know, but I was kind of out of it and loopy on, on the drugs cause I was on heavy pain medications.
[01:11:53.570 --> 01:11:53.830]  Uh huh.
[01:11:53.830 --> 01:11:53.970]  But.
[01:11:55.550 --> 01:11:56.110]  Wow.
[01:11:56.330 --> 01:11:57.930]  And that's, that's, that's something.
[01:11:59.170 --> 01:11:59.730]  Yeah.
[01:12:00.610 --> 01:12:10.550]  And that, that one was on dark matter and project Raven, which was the most unethical hacking I've ever come across.
[01:12:10.550 --> 01:12:14.750]  This was this outfit in the United Arab Emirates.
[01:12:14.750 --> 01:12:37.810]  Um, where they were ponying iPhones with no click iMessage messages and, um, and you know, they had, uh, basically Americans who worked for the NSA through, uh, contractors like Booz out.
[01:12:37.810 --> 01:12:38.550]  Right.
[01:12:40.270 --> 01:12:51.350]  They get recruited by this outfit called dark matter, and they get shipped over to the UAE to work for their state equivalent of the NSA.
[01:12:52.050 --> 01:12:56.010]  And they set up like this surveillance state on steroids.
[01:12:57.650 --> 01:13:06.270]  And because of their hacking, dissidents and journalists are disappeared off the street.
[01:13:06.470 --> 01:13:07.630]  They're tortured.
[01:13:08.030 --> 01:13:20.170]  They're tried in secret, you know, and this, you know, it's like, like I've been in the hacking scene since the late eighties and most of it is just like curiosity.
[01:13:20.170 --> 01:13:21.490]  Can I do this?
[01:13:21.750 --> 01:13:31.890]  You know, this is the fun technical hack, but this put real people's lives in hell, right?
[01:13:32.410 --> 01:13:37.010]  People were hurt, you know, because of hacking.
[01:13:41.020 --> 01:14:03.780]  Yeah, I've, um, I've, uh, really enjoyed some of your writing about, and, uh, a lot of these different topics, but that in particular, um, the concept that, um, zero days and, uh, malware and, um, various forms of software are, um, and exploits essentially are not fixed,
[01:14:03.820 --> 01:14:08.880]  but rather sold to the highest bidder and used in essentially military operations.
[01:14:09.420 --> 01:14:28.540]  And that is what we're talking about when we're talking about the militarization of the internet and, um, you know, what the, um, the treatment of this network as, um, you know, for the social good only as an afterthought to its militarized aspects.
[01:14:28.540 --> 01:14:44.040]  And, you know, the, the fantasy that it is this, um, this utopia of just protocols that have no allegiance or, and, and so forth is just that is a bygone fantasy.
[01:14:44.040 --> 01:15:05.780]  We need to really appreciate what the environment of this network is, how it's, how it's used, how it's exploited for private interests and that the actors using this network, uh, alongside industry and commercial interests are very much interested in military ends.
[01:15:05.940 --> 01:15:08.580]  And this, this goes for every nation in the world.
[01:15:08.680 --> 01:15:20.600]  They all have, um, uh, information operation arms, like you're describing, you know, uh, NSA equivalents on up through military now.
[01:15:20.960 --> 01:15:34.120]  And the idea that hackers can have day jobs where they're just doing a small part of something and don't really have a say in this, it's a lot less debatable these days.
[01:15:34.440 --> 01:15:41.080]  And, um, I think people need to stop kidding themselves around these issues.
[01:15:41.080 --> 01:15:46.100]  And I think that's what you're pointing out, but, um, you know, we also...
[01:15:46.100 --> 01:16:05.240]  Yeah, I made the argument about the ethics around like what you're doing for a payday, you know, cause the UAE recruited these hackers, you know, who formerly worked for the NSA through contractors and stuff, you know, cause it was a big payday, no taxes in the UAE,
[01:16:05.440 --> 01:16:17.480]  you know, and, uh, and, uh, the American whistleblower only caught her scruples when they started going after American targets.
[01:16:17.800 --> 01:16:22.120]  It was, she thought she was a good spy as long as it was against brown people.
[01:16:22.680 --> 01:16:23.220]  Right.
[01:16:23.680 --> 01:16:24.180]  Okay.
[01:16:24.180 --> 01:16:29.740]  But as soon as it, as soon as it was, um, oh, we're doing this to Americans too.
[01:16:29.740 --> 01:16:42.040]  Oh, I guess I'll, I'll finally, uh, get a spine and sit in, oh, maybe I'm a bad, you know, like, like there's like, like, like there's such a thing as a good spook, you know?
[01:16:43.100 --> 01:16:43.540]  Yeah.
[01:16:43.540 --> 01:17:03.040]  And I think our coziness with people, like if you, after a while are involved in techno, you know, computers and telephony and, in that world, like you inevitably hear stories and bump energy about it, you know, and that right there is your first, uh,
[01:17:03.260 --> 01:17:14.560]  clue that you should probably, you know, just at least appreciate who you're talking to and why they are the way they are and what motives, what, what things might be at play.
[01:17:14.780 --> 01:17:33.340]  And this extends to like our discussion of law in the past, like 10 years, it's been a factor, uh, in all of this, but you're, um, you're right in, in, in, um, that like you, especially to young people getting involved, I know it's hard to find employment.
[01:17:33.340 --> 01:17:41.440]  I know you want to be, um, you know, uh, testing systems and doing all this stuff, but just appreciate who you're doing that for.
[01:17:41.620 --> 01:17:50.220]  And if you enlist and do it somewhere, be a little bit, um, more informed about what that entails and what kinds of things you'll be tasked with doing.
[01:17:50.220 --> 01:18:02.420]  There are people right now living with PTSD from, uh, their involvement in, um, in, in past conflicts where some of this stuff was tried out for the first time.
[01:18:02.420 --> 01:18:13.860]  And we didn't really know what the consequences on people, um, operating autonomous systems and, and, and having access to, um, uh, interconnected systems and so forth.
[01:18:14.120 --> 01:18:31.740]  Um, but, uh, so anyway, I, for me, I just, just the awareness and this, this like uneven ease of proximity of communities, because in a lot of like hacker events, there have been sort of issues with national security and intelligence community stuff.
[01:18:31.740 --> 01:18:41.580]  And then there's also been this like coziness and it's, it's always been a, it's always been a gray, like back and forth.
[01:18:41.580 --> 01:18:49.420]  And it's, um, becoming ever more poignant to appreciate the interplay of all of that.
[01:18:49.420 --> 01:18:50.620]  I think go on.
[01:18:50.780 --> 01:18:53.920]  I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm just building on what you're saying, but please continue.
[01:18:54.240 --> 01:19:06.560]  Cause like dark matter, um, the company that, that, that had these Americans work for the Emirati government recruited at hacker conventions.
[01:19:07.000 --> 01:19:08.480]  They were at black hat.
[01:19:08.720 --> 01:19:12.420]  If you went to black hat, you might've gotten some dark matter swag.
[01:19:13.620 --> 01:19:14.460]  You know?
[01:19:17.000 --> 01:19:17.480]  Yep.
[01:19:17.960 --> 01:19:23.760]  And the, you know, and you know, and you know, and it's a game at DEF CON to spot the fed.
[01:19:24.720 --> 01:19:25.020]  Right.
[01:19:26.280 --> 01:19:26.760]  Yeah.
[01:19:26.940 --> 01:19:30.260]  I was, I, that's a, uh, an interesting thing to talk about.
[01:19:30.500 --> 01:19:41.700]  Just like the, the things that 10 years ago were like a joke and sort of funny, I don't think are as funny now, especially at conferences and the way we treat one another.
[01:19:41.700 --> 01:19:46.060]  And the prejudice is we bring to a lot of these events around one another.
[01:19:46.340 --> 01:19:51.160]  It is, um, you know, meeting in person is still awkward for hackers.
[01:19:51.460 --> 01:20:07.840]  And with some of these things, um, uh, top loading, some of those interactions, it, it is, it can be contentious and yes, our playfulness and our, our footsie with, with agencies that definitely want to recruit, like, should they not be allowed to recruit?
[01:20:07.840 --> 01:20:19.640]  Like, I don't agree that, that, you know, all of, of, uh, the defense capabilities and all the private entities in the U S just shouldn't be able to recruit hackers.
[01:20:19.820 --> 01:20:20.760]  I don't agree with that.
[01:20:20.820 --> 01:20:23.960]  And I think a lot of people want to be able to work wherever the hell they want to work.
[01:20:25.360 --> 01:20:36.620]  But so, and I, you know, these get to broader questions and we're, this is part of, I think, what we're looking at in a bigger sense, like, what is the point of Western society?
[01:20:36.620 --> 01:20:54.020]  These are, we're being, um, I think internalizing a lot of these philosophical things and, and, uh, to come back with some confidence about, um, the questions other parts of the world has, has about these systems.
[01:20:54.240 --> 01:20:57.860]  So, you know, do we, should we have employed hackers?
[01:20:57.860 --> 01:21:13.600]  Well, I think, and, and a lot of my, um, sort of willingness around that to tolerate people being able to work wherever the hell they want is that I don't think unemployed hackers are very good for networks either.
[01:21:13.960 --> 01:21:16.800]  You know, people then get desperate.
[01:21:17.140 --> 01:21:21.800]  They, they try to, you know, make a quick buck, make ends meet.
[01:21:21.800 --> 01:21:26.700]  And then you, you know, you, you don't end up with better, stronger networks.
[01:21:27.020 --> 01:21:29.740]  If, if you, you can't get a job.
[01:21:30.180 --> 01:21:36.960]  I knew, I know that I, I'm, you know, I don't kid myself one minute how hard it is out there.
[01:21:37.200 --> 01:21:55.980]  Um, especially if education and, and other things, you know, were sort of stacked up against you, the competitiveness of, you know, where monopolies can get talent and, and how they can, um, how much power they can bring to, um, universities or, you know,
[01:21:56.100 --> 01:21:57.500]  wherever the talent is.
[01:21:57.780 --> 01:22:02.120]  Um, but at the same time, we need to be, yeah, critical.
[01:22:02.420 --> 01:22:14.160]  Like, I, I think, um, hearing stories about what some of these places do is the best way to have people informed.
[01:22:14.160 --> 01:22:28.340]  Like, that's the only way, like, if people are going to be in a place that, that people are going to be recruiting for private entities that are involved in, in violence, um, you know, they should have as much information about that.
[01:22:28.500 --> 01:22:47.980]  And, and, uh, the willingness to let them make it seem like a, you know, it's just another, uh, tech company where everybody's on like, you know, bouncy balls and, and, uh, you know, has all sorts of, you know, whimsical, um, uh, perks.
[01:22:48.320 --> 01:22:51.400]  That's not what the, the, the reality is.
[01:22:51.520 --> 01:23:06.260]  Even at a lot of these, uh, tech companies that, uh, attracted a lot of talent and, and had a huge boom in, in acceptance to get people to stare at iPhones.
[01:23:06.260 --> 01:23:10.840]  You know, they had to have a reason for people to use 4g networks.
[01:23:11.100 --> 01:23:14.880]  So let's give them some, something to do with it.
[01:23:15.020 --> 01:23:15.140]  Right.
[01:23:15.160 --> 01:23:18.000]  So that's what that technology was sold as.
[01:23:18.100 --> 01:23:36.320]  And so like what 6g, what the next stuff, who, which monopoly is going to victimize us with that technology next, and which of you will be recruited to, um, to either do that commercially or take the job that you can't talk about and, uh, won't admit to among your hack,
[01:23:36.500 --> 01:23:41.860]  among your hacker friends, because if it's transparent, they're going to judge you for it.
[01:23:42.400 --> 01:23:48.980]  Um, I think those are very real aspects of industry and, and the kind of world we're stepping into.
[01:23:49.300 --> 01:23:53.060]  So I'm, I'm really appreciative of your writing and those are my reactions.
[01:23:53.380 --> 01:23:54.540]  I don't know if that helps.
[01:23:54.980 --> 01:23:55.440]  Thank you.
[01:23:55.460 --> 01:23:56.300]  Thank you very much.
[01:23:56.400 --> 01:24:10.300]  It's humbling, you know, to, you know, to get that feedback, especially from people, you know, involved with the home organization, so to speak, you know, cause you know, it's kind of like writing out into the void.
[01:24:10.460 --> 01:24:17.880]  You know, I get a little bit of feedback on the discord on the 2600 discord server, which I recently joined and stuff.
[01:24:18.040 --> 01:24:26.840]  But you know, it's hard, you know, it's like, unless, unless someone writes a letter into the magazine, you know, I really don't know how well it was, uh, received.
[01:24:27.380 --> 01:24:30.280]  Yeah, it's, it's, you know, feedback is a, is a tricky thing.
[01:24:30.280 --> 01:24:31.960]  You never really know how many people are out there.
[01:24:32.040 --> 01:24:35.780]  It's, it's like the radio, you know, because, uh, we heard from a guy in Denmark tonight.
[01:24:35.780 --> 01:24:37.300]  We had no idea we were getting out there.
[01:24:37.500 --> 01:24:38.780]  We always are hearing from people.
[01:24:39.280 --> 01:24:44.200]  It's kind of the magic of both publishing and broadcasting is you don't really know how many people are out there.
[01:24:44.300 --> 01:24:54.620]  But let me just ask you, um, is there something you could say to people out there who maybe are considering writing something and, uh, aren't sure if it's a good idea?
[01:24:55.120 --> 01:24:56.420]  Any, any advice you can offer them?
[01:24:58.520 --> 01:25:01.500]  Just write and submit, you know?
[01:25:01.780 --> 01:25:05.600]  Um, I haven't had anything rejected yet.
[01:25:05.940 --> 01:25:06.540]  Okay.
[01:25:06.540 --> 01:25:07.000]  You know?
[01:25:07.220 --> 01:25:07.800]  That's good.
[01:25:07.800 --> 01:25:16.060]  So, you know, and, um, and be patient because, you know, it's only a quarterly magazine.
[01:25:16.360 --> 01:25:25.300]  And sometimes that acceptance letter takes a long time to get in and the publishing cycle is slow because it's every three months.
[01:25:25.460 --> 01:25:25.840]  True.
[01:25:26.100 --> 01:25:28.800]  You know, so it takes a long time to see your story in print.
[01:25:29.620 --> 01:25:35.360]  But, um, it's like that Grisky quote, you know, you miss all the, all the shots you don't take.
[01:25:35.900 --> 01:25:36.620]  Very true.
[01:25:36.620 --> 01:25:37.300]  Very true.
[01:25:37.300 --> 01:25:37.600]  Very true.
[01:25:37.840 --> 01:25:44.660]  And if you have, if you have something to say, you know, 2600 is a good forum to say it for the hacker community.
[01:25:44.660 --> 01:25:50.820]  I think it's one of the most, I think it's one of the oldest and best established magazines.
[01:25:50.820 --> 01:25:55.760]  You can buy it in Barnes and Noble, you know, or on Amazon or...
[01:25:56.840 --> 01:25:58.440]  Well, there's a story about Amazon.
[01:25:58.440 --> 01:26:12.160]  We're not going to get to tonight, but, uh, suffice to say, yeah, when, when, when, when you deal with big companies, uh, sometimes, uh, you don't have any control over what they do, but that's, that's a part of the course is what we talk about all the time.
[01:26:12.160 --> 01:26:14.780]  But what your point is very well taken.
[01:26:15.380 --> 01:26:23.300]  Um, basically you're so much better off having written something than not having written something, even if it doesn't get published, at least you have written something.
[01:26:23.720 --> 01:26:27.520]  And, um, that's what we try to impart to people, uh, who are out there.
[01:26:27.860 --> 01:26:31.520]  And, um, you know, the thing with the magazine is it's, it's, it's permanent.
[01:26:31.680 --> 01:26:32.260]  It's always out there.
[01:26:32.320 --> 01:26:32.680]  It's printed.
[01:26:32.840 --> 01:26:35.880]  It's, it's something that people will come back to in 20, 30 years.
[01:26:36.060 --> 01:26:40.780]  And, and, you know, it'll, it'll still read just as well as it did the day it came out.
[01:26:41.240 --> 01:26:48.880]  Uh, you don't get that as much with, with, um, bulletin boards or news groups or, or, uh, uh, social media.
[01:26:48.880 --> 01:26:54.040]  Uh, it's very hard to find things from particular times or covering particular topics.
[01:26:54.360 --> 01:27:01.240]  Um, so there's something magical about both radio and, and publishing, which, uh, I think many, many people get.
[01:27:02.420 --> 01:27:02.980]  Yeah.
[01:27:03.260 --> 01:27:21.280]  I mean, it's nice to have it in hard copy and print, you know, like Phrack is just as old, but you know, it lives on hard drives and floppy disks and websites, you know, and, you know, it's kind of more ephemeral, so to speak.
[01:27:21.620 --> 01:27:22.080]  It's magic.
[01:27:22.220 --> 01:27:22.880]  Phrack is magic.
[01:27:23.160 --> 01:27:25.140]  It's definitely something that has lived through the ages.
[01:27:25.420 --> 01:27:41.180]  And, uh, it's, I think it's an exception because they have, um, uh, you know, they have a volume numbers and you know, if you're missing one, uh, whereas, you know, people just posting on Reddit or something like that, you know, it's, it's, it's not the same thing.
[01:27:41.380 --> 01:27:44.180]  You know, things will disappear and you'll never find them again or Facebook.
[01:27:44.620 --> 01:27:50.900]  You know, I, I look for things on Facebook all the time, you know, whenever I, I sign on and I can't find them.
[01:27:51.160 --> 01:27:56.640]  I can never find something that somebody said or, or a contact, uh, that I want to make.
[01:27:57.080 --> 01:28:01.480]  Um, whereas, you know, just, or it can be removed or moderate.
[01:28:01.900 --> 01:28:02.060]  Absolutely.
[01:28:02.900 --> 01:28:03.100]  Yeah.
[01:28:03.380 --> 01:28:06.460]  Or a billionaire can buy the platform and it can all go to hell.
[01:28:06.640 --> 01:28:06.940]  Uh huh.
[01:28:14.800 --> 01:28:15.240]  Yeah.
[01:28:15.380 --> 01:28:17.540]  I got back issues going back decades.
[01:28:18.000 --> 01:28:18.380]  Mm hmm.
[01:28:18.540 --> 01:28:18.840]  Yeah.
[01:28:19.100 --> 01:28:22.140]  It's been, it's been, uh, we're hitting off 40th year next year.
[01:28:22.300 --> 01:28:23.260]  Can you believe that?
[01:28:23.880 --> 01:28:24.680]  That's unbelievable.
[01:28:24.780 --> 01:28:25.000]  Wow.
[01:28:25.100 --> 01:28:25.580]  That's amazing.
[01:28:25.680 --> 01:28:25.840]  Yeah.
[01:28:25.900 --> 01:28:26.820]  It's kind of scary.
[01:28:27.860 --> 01:28:28.300]  Yeah.
[01:28:28.340 --> 01:28:29.800]  I've been reading since the nineties.
[01:28:29.980 --> 01:28:31.500]  So actually more like 30 years.
[01:28:31.680 --> 01:28:31.920]  Uh huh.
[01:28:33.440 --> 01:28:33.880]  Yeah.
[01:28:34.100 --> 01:28:34.300]  Yeah.
[01:28:34.940 --> 01:28:38.380]  Well, listen, it's been great hearing from you and, uh, please continue to write.
[01:28:38.380 --> 01:28:52.720]  And, um, I hope other people are inspired by this and they, they write as well, because that is really the magic of the whole operation is, is, you know, the voice, you know, that's in the, in the very early days in the mid eighties, that's what inspired the magazine was,
[01:28:52.740 --> 01:29:02.200]  um, the stories that were being told on bulletin boards, but not being shared outside of that small community and, uh, putting something on paper made it so much bigger.
[01:29:02.780 --> 01:29:08.180]  And, uh, I dare say it, it, it grew exponentially for, for, for quite a while after that.
[01:29:08.380 --> 01:29:11.220]  And, uh, certainly proved that people want to hear these stories.
[01:29:12.260 --> 01:29:12.860]  Yeah.
[01:29:12.960 --> 01:29:16.560]  I love writing for the magazine and I plan on continue doing it.
[01:29:16.720 --> 01:29:17.320]  Okay.
[01:29:17.980 --> 01:29:22.120]  I've just gotten in my recovery where I can write again.
[01:29:22.320 --> 01:29:23.860]  I just wrote an essay on medium.
[01:29:24.220 --> 01:29:24.460]  Wow.
[01:29:24.640 --> 01:29:27.860]  About the AI art moral panic.
[01:29:28.180 --> 01:29:28.460]  Uh huh.
[01:29:28.660 --> 01:29:53.520]  And, um, so I was thinking about maybe doing something about that for the magazine from, um, uh, you know, on, you know, cause people are, have been so used, all they've seen in the tech is surveillance capitalism for like 20 years now that they forgot that technology can be liberating,
[01:29:53.820 --> 01:29:56.740]  that it can make things more accessible.
[01:29:57.560 --> 01:30:03.740]  You know, like the hacker ethic is all but forgotten by most people.
[01:30:03.980 --> 01:30:11.820]  And all they see of technology is oppression and trying to sell you stuff and track your data.
[01:30:11.820 --> 01:30:24.460]  Uh, and they, they don't know about the free software movement or open source or libre software and how it can be so empowering.
[01:30:25.720 --> 01:30:35.980]  And AI has this, uh, has this potential to be that, but people are scared because it's a disruptive technology.
[01:30:38.420 --> 01:30:38.940]  Yeah.
[01:30:39.120 --> 01:30:39.760]  And it's so true.
[01:30:39.920 --> 01:30:51.600]  Like until it's commodified and sold back as something flashy, people won't accept it, but really it's, uh, uh, capability that's just emerging and it can, like you're saying, take all forms.
[01:30:51.600 --> 01:30:58.060]  And I, I don't want to be so deterministic about, um, what the network has become in my predictions.
[01:30:58.240 --> 01:30:59.160]  Cause you're right.
[01:30:59.160 --> 01:31:07.780]  I, the, the ethos and the spirit of like, uh, technology having a liberating, um, capability is it's still there.
[01:31:07.780 --> 01:31:10.860]  It's just not, it doesn't, it's formless.
[01:31:10.860 --> 01:31:26.280]  Like it's not a brand that, that, um, the sort of, um, Gen Z, like people who've known nothing else can access when they need to realize the network is there for them to define.
[01:31:26.280 --> 01:31:41.040]  And, and I think all people need to realize that, um, these collections of companies are just innovating in certain areas of it, but the, the network still exists and, um, we can design things around it.
[01:31:41.140 --> 01:31:45.940]  And mostly the power is in ways that firms do not function.
[01:31:45.940 --> 01:32:00.080]  Like they all throw their weight around and think they're a big deal sort of in the, in the face of victimizing their audience or their public until the public shows the scale with which they can throw their weight around.
[01:32:00.300 --> 01:32:01.660]  That's a market force.
[01:32:01.880 --> 01:32:07.800]  So don't let the monopolies scare you too much because they are much more vulnerable than they would have.
[01:32:07.840 --> 01:32:14.480]  You think they're designed to just compete with one another on the terms that they compete, um, against one another.
[01:32:14.480 --> 01:32:24.300]  If there is anybody else and, and the modes, the other modes they exploit in, uh, politics and elsewhere, the public has just as much access to those avenues.
[01:32:24.560 --> 01:32:28.800]  So yeah, it's, it's not a sort of a pre preordained thing.
[01:32:28.900 --> 01:32:29.980]  And we should get back to that.
[01:32:30.160 --> 01:32:30.940]  What are the tools?
[01:32:31.080 --> 01:32:47.920]  What are the, what are the things, um, we haven't thought of that could be prototyped with free software and, and, uh, what kinds of like, even with social media, we're seeing, what does it look like to graft onto, you know, decentralized networks and transform all of that.
[01:32:48.080 --> 01:32:52.880]  Um, please keep reminding us cause, uh, your, your stories are, are apt.
[01:32:53.100 --> 01:32:56.700]  So that, that's just a great direction that, that you're going in.
[01:32:57.820 --> 01:32:58.260]  Yeah.
[01:32:58.420 --> 01:33:00.480]  I'm no longer black hat or white hat.
[01:33:00.620 --> 01:33:01.580]  I'm old hat.
[01:33:02.140 --> 01:33:02.760]  That's good.
[01:33:02.860 --> 01:33:03.440]  That's good.
[01:33:03.480 --> 01:33:03.940]  I like that.
[01:33:04.140 --> 01:33:04.960]  That's the best hat.
[01:33:04.960 --> 01:33:05.340]  Yeah.
[01:33:05.680 --> 01:33:11.940]  And about, about the, the, the whole thing, you know, capitalism ruins everything it touches.
[01:33:12.400 --> 01:33:15.320]  And unfortunately it touches everything.
[01:33:15.820 --> 01:33:19.420]  Well, that's, uh, sounds negative, but it's probably true.
[01:33:20.380 --> 01:33:20.940]  Yeah.
[01:33:21.280 --> 01:33:34.660]  You, the, the best way to, um, to prevent that from, uh, uh, seeping in is to, um, design everything else around other modes that don't necessarily have the same vulnerability.
[01:33:34.660 --> 01:33:40.560]  Uh, fill in the, the gaps, so to speak with stuff that is not designed the same, structured in the same way.
[01:33:41.100 --> 01:33:42.340]  Hey, uh, we gotta go.
[01:33:42.340 --> 01:33:45.280]  We just realized we've been on for an hour and a half, just on overtime alone.
[01:33:45.700 --> 01:33:47.140]  So, uh, okay.
[01:33:47.380 --> 01:33:48.240]  Thank you so much.
[01:33:48.260 --> 01:33:49.240]  No, thank you for calling.
[01:33:49.240 --> 01:33:50.660]  Thanks for calling.
[01:33:50.900 --> 01:33:51.620]  Thanks for writing.
[01:33:51.960 --> 01:33:57.420]  And, uh, best of, best of luck with your recovery and hope to, uh, see many more articles from you.
[01:33:59.060 --> 01:34:00.020]  I'll get to writing.
[01:34:00.300 --> 01:34:00.460]  Okay.
[01:34:01.100 --> 01:34:01.600]  All right.
[01:34:01.660 --> 01:34:02.040]  Be well.
[01:34:03.360 --> 01:34:03.760]  Bye.
[01:34:05.020 --> 01:34:05.420]  Wow.
[01:34:05.560 --> 01:34:07.080]  We had good calls tonight, huh?
[01:34:07.320 --> 01:34:08.900]  That was, uh, that was really something.
[01:34:10.420 --> 01:34:10.800]  Yeah.
[01:34:11.680 --> 01:34:13.040]  Good, good way to end the year.
[01:34:13.800 --> 01:34:15.120]  It is the end of the year.
[01:34:15.120 --> 01:34:17.780]  Our last show, our last overtime for 2022.
[01:34:17.980 --> 01:34:21.680]  And the first one won't be for another couple of weeks for 2023.
[01:34:24.520 --> 01:34:27.500]  Well, so happy new year, everyone.
[01:34:28.400 --> 01:34:28.820]  Yes.
[01:34:29.040 --> 01:34:29.860]  Happy new year.
[01:34:30.240 --> 01:34:34.200]  And, um, I guess that's a better one.
[01:34:34.600 --> 01:34:35.080]  Yeah.
[01:34:35.340 --> 01:34:44.140]  I was trying to think of that holiday, uh, in Switzerland with the, the Kings that you that are in the cake and two Kings day, three Kings day or something like that.
[01:34:44.140 --> 01:34:44.660]  Three Kings day.
[01:34:44.820 --> 01:34:45.300]  Three Kings day.
[01:34:45.400 --> 01:34:45.920]  Is that what it is?
[01:34:46.380 --> 01:34:46.780]  Okay.
[01:34:47.020 --> 01:34:47.180]  Yeah.
[01:34:47.520 --> 01:34:48.880]  Well, that's, I think the second, right?
[01:34:49.880 --> 01:34:53.680]  It's around there somewhere, but anyway, whatever holiday you're having, have a happy one.
[01:34:53.920 --> 01:34:54.920]  Uh, write to us.
[01:34:55.100 --> 01:34:57.720]  O th at 2600.com off the hook.
[01:34:57.800 --> 01:34:59.860]  We'll be back in two weeks, 7.
[01:35:00.040 --> 01:35:01.360]  PM on WBA.
[01:35:01.480 --> 01:35:03.780]  I also broadcast over the net.
[01:35:03.960 --> 01:35:08.840]  And of course, over time at 8 PM on channel 2600 over on YouTube.
[01:35:10.080 --> 01:35:10.820]  Good night, everyone.
[01:35:11.380 --> 01:35:11.720]  Bye.
[01:35:11.720 --> 01:35:11.800]  Good night.
[01:35:12.220 --> 01:35:12.800]  See ya, Google?
[01:35:12.800 --> 01:35:13.240]  So you took a lot more time.
[01:35:13.580 --> 01:35:13.680]  There's a great news報告 on that it is.
[01:35:13.680 --> 01:35:14.200]  This is probably not an exciting story for our next co-liing path, but it's some way to nature as opposed to a team on service that has come down or help us.
[01:35:14.200 --> 01:35:14.320]  Absolutely.
[01:35:14.320 --> 01:35:14.460]  Super good to make sure.