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Stay tuned for Off the Hook here on WBAI New York 99.5 FM and WBAI.org
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We're sorry the number you have reached 99.5 WBAI is now off the hook.
And a very good evening to everybody. The program is Off the Hook. Emmanuel Goldstein
here with you on this Wednesday evening joined tonight by Kyle. Yes, right here.
Over in Skype land we have Rob T. Firefly. Good evening. We have Gila. Good
evening. And we have Alex. Good evening. Alex, are you in some exotic place this
week? I guess it's slightly exotic. It's Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Pittsburgh. Okay, that's great. Wow. Yeah, I'm here for the National Cyber
Forensics Training Alliance disruptions 2023 conference and I gave a
presentation earlier today and I'll be here until tomorrow. I was at a Pirates
game last night with a bunch of colleagues and then actually took the
weird little subway that they have in Pittsburgh. Have you ever been on the
Pittsburgh subway? No, no. I'm sorry. I just I took one look at that and I just
I just couldn't. It's like the Detroit people mover. It's just, yeah, it's nice.
You know, it's a concept but, you know, call me when you have a bunch of
lines and some transfers and, you know, I don't want to sound, you know, all high
and mighty here but it's a city. Deserves a real subway, doesn't it? I think that's
true. I mean, they don't even call it the subway, right? They call it the T and
that's in Boston. Boston calls it the T and that's they have a decent system. It
could be better but it's decent. Yeah, it could be a lot better in Boston. But you
in Pittsburgh, you've got the 412 area code, okay? And the reason why you're 412
is because when they started inventing area codes, they gave the lower numbers
to the the cities that were the most important or at least the ones that you
were gonna dial the most so that you wouldn't have to have your finger go
all around the the rotary dial. So that's why New York has 212, Los Angeles had
213, Chicago was 312, Pittsburgh 412. We had high hopes. Yeah, we did. I guess, yeah,
right in the middle of the rotary dial there. I didn't realize that that the
distance that the rotary had to dial, it had to travel, determined area codes. I
was not aware of that. Look how much I'm learning tonight. Yeah, well, I
mean, if you look at, you know, things like 907, 808, Alaska, Hawaii, you know,
it's way up there. You can just take your time dialing those numbers. No one's in a
rush. Well, it was funny. I was in the elevator with an FBI agent who was from
Anchorage, Alaska. And I saw that on his badge. It said, you know, FBI Anchorage.
And I said, Oh, you're from the 907. Wow. And he said, Yeah, yeah, I am. He said,
you've been to Anchorage? You've been to Alaska? And I said, No. I said, But you're
in Anchorage. And I'm pretty sure there's an exchange there 243. Right. And he used
to have a 907-243 number. He looked at me like I was some kind of freak. And yes, I
totally blew this FBI agent's mind by knowing this area code and exchange.
Well, I know how you know the area code. How did you know this exchange?
Well, because way back in the day, you know, when blue boxing was, not blue
boxing, but red boxing was a thing. We used to call numbers in Alaska, because
it was the farthest phone call that you could make. That was still, you know, by
virtue of that wasn't an international call. So you could dial 907, we had to
figure out what the exchanges were in Alaska. And we just call up people in
Anchorage and talk.
Wow.
Yeah, I know. That's part of my misspent youth.
No, actually, I think that was not a waste of time at all. That was some of my
fondest memories was doing similar things. I was more of a blue box type than a red
box type. And to me, red boxing just seemed too easy. Just hold a box up to a
payphone, because beep five times, you get a free call. Okay, but, but blue
boxing, you had to route things you had to, you know, you heard it in the
recording before the show, you heard what were known as multi frequency tones, MF
tones. Those are the tones I described to people, you know, in the Pink Floyd song
where they make the phone call those tones. Everyone recognizes that they don't
remember the tones from their from their lives so much. But those were the actual
phone company routing tones. And if you could do that, if you could seize a line
using 2600 hertz, and enter those multi frequency tones, you could not only route
free calls in in your area or in the country, you could route all around the
world and talk to internal operators and get to numbers that you could never reach
otherwise.
Yeah, those were the days those were the days you know, if blue boxing was still
possible, when I was a teenager, I would have done it, for sure. But it was a
distant memory. I think you know, those analog switches were, were long gone, we
had switched over to the digital five ESS switches. And, you know, yeah, that's
all history.
You know, this, this is actually a very good opportunity to mention something.
Kyle and I visited a very interesting place over the weekend. We didn't even
know this existed. It's the Long Island telephone museum. It's located in the
central office in Comac, New York, that's in Suffolk County. And these guys, they're
open the first Sunday of every month from one to 4pm. And it's the most amazing
thing. They have all kinds of old pay phones, they have all sorts of models of
desk phones and key systems. I mean, it was it blew me away the amount of
memorabilia they have collected. And it is just such an incredibly positive
experience to just see all this on display. You know, you can take your time
looking it over, examining it, taking pictures, you meet other people that are
there for the same reasons we brought the 2600 van within within five seconds of
parking. We had an old guy coming up to us saying, Yeah, I knew about boxing back
in the day. They're everywhere there. We parked the van on any corner and we're
going to get people like that walking up. It's great. But Long Island telephone
museum, their website is, believe it or not, Long Island telephone museum.com.
And all the details are there.
Yeah, I hope they keep expanding. And those places tend to because the interest
is strong and it takes the kind of curiosity and random visits and support. I
know they also probably do like special events and educational tours and stuff
like that. That's really important because it teaches people about
communication systems. And even like Alex said, stuff that's outdated. I think for
me, it was very instructive and exciting because it made me think about other ways
and other systems that I could learn how they worked and have fun with tinkering and
playing around with them anew in ways that hadn't been explored yet. So that kind
of fun with electronic and electromechanical systems that are all
around us can be really, really exciting and lead other things too. You can get
involved in these places. You can learn more about administering these kinds of
systems and all the different types of expertise it takes to run it.
Yeah, if you're a teacher, and I know a lot of teachers listen to us, you can bring
your class out to this place, arrange a field trip, and they'll be happy to give
you a tour. It'd be most amazing. Yes, Rob?
So you said this place is in a central office. Is this like a working central
office? Like is this still a telephone company place?
It is a working central office, but they have very thick walls between the museum
and the actual central office part. Not that there's a whole lot in the central
office anymore, and people might not know this. Every community has what's known as
a central office. Usually it's a building that's comprised of brick entirely, might
not even have any windows, and it has a logo of one of the names the phone company
went by, New York Telephone, 9X, Bell Atlantic, Verizon, you name it. And inside
there is the switching equipment for your local telephone exchange. I know a lot of
people use cell phones now. You might not even use a landline, but that equipment is
still there. It's gone from mechanical equipment, which took up an entire
building, to electronic and digital equipment, which takes up a fraction of
that space. But the buildings are still there. In every community there is one,
and this one happens to be in Comac, which is on the north shore of Suffolk County.
And yeah, they've got a good amount of space devoted to this. There are full size
payphone booths with mannequins inside them, making phone calls, obviously. There
are representations of what an operator station was like, answering machines, old
answering machines, huge, big answering machines that you would not believe.
All kinds of tooling and some really good hands-on displays that show you the
different types of cable, outside plant equipment, the stuff that it takes to get
the calls from place to place. All of that's kind of interesting. Oh, and some
examples of modern installations and old literature, statements, bills, historical
stuff that, I don't know, just it has its own sense of mystique around it. You get
this feeling of livelihood of all the kinds of ways people were using this
equipment and how sort of every day it is. We all use the same kinds of technology or
maybe pay the same kinds of bills to this day, albeit maybe at a much greater expense.
But just exploring that and seeing how much it has changed and how much it hasn't
at all, I think is really fun. There's also a lot of stuff from inside, like if you
never worked in the telephone conglomerates, I guess, any one of the companies or for a
large one, or maybe you had relatives, you realize there's this whole culture within
that is kind of interesting, awards and achievements. There was a great display of
all the pins and various things that would be given to managers and people along the
way in their careers and stuff. That's kind of fun to see.
Absolutely. Alex, go ahead.
What I don't understand about this place is that I grew up on Long Island. I was a
phone freak in the 90s. I mean, how did neither I nor you guys know about this place
until this last week?
Yeah, I had heard about it before through Newsday, the Long Island newspaper. But it
was weird because the story they printed said that the telephone museum was reopening
after the pandemic. And it was kind of Orwellian because, well, I don't remember it
ever being open. I don't remember it ever existing. But I'm just going to accept that
there's a part of that history I just didn't know about. They certainly do have a
museum there. It is real. It's real equipment and they know what they're doing.
Gila, go ahead.
I was deep diving because I still consider myself the research department. So I was
reading some stuff. And it appears that the museum has been closed since before the
pandemic. It said reopening after four years. So mapping it out, it's been longer than
that. I mean, the fact that this is completely volunteer produced is incredible. And, you
know, the new vision pioneers, I'm just fascinated by that conceptually, like they're
the folks who are running this organization. But yeah, I am baffled that all you people
on Long Island had no idea that this was in your own backyard.
Oh, no, no, no, no. Don't make it about us on Long Island. All phone freaks everywhere,
that includes you guys. None of us knew about this. And it's pretty incredible. But
they didn't know about us either. So, you know, it's like we're living in different
isolated worlds. They were amazed by the phone company van that we have. But what's
even amazing is that they have an even older phone company van. Do you know that? I
don't think you guys are old enough for this, but I just I just had this memory jarred
recently. But New York telephone trucks used to be green, used to not have stripes on
them at all. Used to be kind of like an olive green. I remember those trucks as a
child, but I had not thought about that in many, many years. And I can't find pictures
of them anywhere. But these folks have one. They have one. And it's it's it's pretty
incredible. Beats the 2600 van.
I just want to add that these places are very hard to run and this place is growing. So I
think it was it's a kind of thing that it was a chapter for the pioneers or that it
was a meeting space and a place that was collecting things like phones. And the the
possibility is really, really inspiring. And it takes people checking it out. And we
found it was pretty well attended to when the doors were open this weekend. So that
itself is a good sign. But it's the kind of place that needs more interest, more building
and stuff and that people will come around projects and and get together if someone
drops off a big piece of equipment or if they're doing something like more outreach
oriented. The place itself attracts that kind of interested, I don't know, affinity
group. And that that is the best part, getting people that don't know much about it.
They're hands on checking stuff out so that they can tell friends and they can maybe
explore stuff. But expanding that makes it easier to work on stuff together, whether it
is like a service project in the community or something like building on site as far as
like an exhibit or something you can take to to have as a spectacle at like other events
to promote the place. But it all takes so much to volunteer and put it together. So the
fact that they're able to reopen and get get people through there is is a good sign
because it'll galvanize that in the future.
Absolutely. And there is a connection with the Telephone Pioneers of America, which I
believe you had a T-shirt of. You gave a talk at HOPE about the Telephone Pioneers.
Oh, yeah. They're a national organization of people that have worked in in the telephone
industry. And so I believe this was a chapter. The museum itself seems to have an
affiliation. I didn't chat them up about it and I'm sure they could tell you exactly who
has membership. But that definitely is, as I think, a group throughout the kind of
fledgling national network of telephone museums. They're a strong steering group.
Basically, the types of folks that can help basically guarantee space through through
like working central offices and come up with people to staff it and lead the tours and so
forth. Alex, you had something?
Yeah, I just wanted to say, you know, it it seems like it's not open very often. You said
the first Sunday of every month and it's only open for three hours. Is that right?
Well, yeah, but it's open by appointment. If like I said, if you have a bunch of third
graders or something wants to see a telephone, some telephone history, they can make a
arrangements with you. But yeah, it's a volunteer. It's a volunteer job. Look, we only
have meetings once a month, you know, for about the same amount of time. It takes time.
It takes work. The fact that this place exists at all is a miracle.
I'm in agreement with you there. It sounds like there should be a twenty six hundred field trip
there. Well, there was one this past weekend.
Honestly, there were a lot of people there. So check it out if you're in the area or if you
have a telephone museum near you. Take some people and just have fun looking at some.
And it reminds me of the Telecommunications Museum out in Seattle, which is famed for for
what it brings to people.
Oh, absolutely. That's kind of what I mentioned is like these places, you know, every once
in a while the weekends are there.
Somebody stops by and says, you know, I've got this five ESS.
I need to drop off. I'm I don't know where to store it.
They do not got to clean out my garage.
Stuff like that happens in these collections grow over time.
So, well, the difference there is it's incredible.
It's called what's the official name?
The Telecommunications Museum.
Is that is that its name?
Yeah, it's changed names over the years.
But the Museum of Communications, they have a history museum.
They have working equipment there where you can actually place calls using old equipment,
which is kind of cool. Oh, yeah.
It's very cool. It's yeah.
It's got demonstrations, basically negative 48 volt power supply from the central office.
And then it also connects.
I'll bet they could do that.
A couple of phone lines.
There's many different teletype and all working UNIX systems even.
I could go on and on about that.
That's also in a central office, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
It's got two floors and they're basically connected.
And the exhibit, you can basically go up and down through different displays and see each
generation of functioning switch, see it work, see it in like test states and maybe even
some of the working demonstrations.
It's got smaller switches.
It's got some really, really interesting stuff.
But it's been something that people have been contributing to for for a really long time.
And it's it takes a lot of work and a lot of energy to collect that.
I mean, they've got an incredible library of all the BSP manuals, which are the Bell system
protocols. I mean, just just like the microfilm and all the information and history at
these places. It's incredible just what what people have saved.
I mean, it would have been thrown out and dumped if if it wasn't taken care of and
people didn't appreciate that it has sort of a place in people's understanding of what it
took in a corporate sense to in a business sense to to have this technological
like abundance emerge and then now, you know, be what it is today.
I just want to read a couple of lines from their website and then we'll move on to other
things. But in many other museums, things can only be seen in our museum.
Visitors can handle, listen to and touch authentic, interactive exhibits and artifacts.
Long Island Telephone Museum has numerous mannequins and animatronics to showcase our
many displays on operations, service and the history of communications.
The Pioneers Telephone Pioneers of America, founded in 1911 with the help of Alexander
Graham Bell, now consists of active and retired employees who volunteer thousands of
hours of community service each year.
And again, their website is Long Island Telephone Museum dot com.
And I understand also they have an Instagram account, Long Island Telephone Museum.
And the address is 445 Comack Road, Comack, New York, again, open first Sunday of every
month from 1 to 4 p.m. and by appointment.
So look them up.
Pretty, pretty amazing.
And it makes me wonder what else is out there that we don't know about.
OK, some of the news this week, last week we talked about how the MTA has abandoned
Twitter because Twitter wanted them to pay $50,000 a month for something they were using
for free, namely a means of getting a schedule notifications out to the public.
MTA felt it wasn't right to be charging $50,000 for the privilege of being able to tell
people things like that.
And Twitter has now backtracked a week after announcing it would stop using Twitter to
post updates on delays, service outages and other travel information.
The agency has reversed course after Twitter dropped its demand that government
agencies like the MTA pay 50 grand a month for access.
The MTA had also earlier said it was worried the service had become unreliable under the
ownership of Elon Musk.
But officials said Thursday they received assurances riders could count on the alerts.
The MTA informed Twitter senior management that it would not pay to provide the public
with critical service information.
Twitter got the message and reversed its plan to charge the MTA more than half a million
dollars per year for for these alerts.
So now no transit agency will need to pay.
Well, that's good news, right?
So apparently, if you speak loudly enough, these these companies will hear you and will
actually take action or stop taking bad actions.
It's really interesting, though, because so many of these moves by Twitter management and
by that it I primarily mean the the really impulsive dude who has been in control of it.
Um, you know, they they have made so many things that were seen as bad moves and they're
like, oh, yeah, OK, we won't do that then.
But they have really lost the trust of people who had grown to depend on this sort of thing
from them.
So, yeah, they they could they could invite like, you know, radio stations back on that
it decided to leave.
They can invite, you know, public utilities back on that it decided to leave.
But, you know, when when anyone goes back onto the service, they're still under the
threat of like what if he changes his mind someday and we find ourselves, you know, crap
out of luck.
And so this is this is really this is really just, I think, opened our eyes to what it
means to depend upon sort of an unrelated third party for information like this.
Absolutely.
Now, how do I get my blue check back?
That's that's the big challenge at this stage.
But we'll get to that.
We'll get to that at some point.
Yeah, the craziness continues.
Gila, go ahead.
But one thing I did discover is that during the period of time when the MTA was not using
the API, a user, a random user, a man named Will Davis jumped in to use the user level
API, the $100 tier, basically just feeding it straight in from other updates.
Sorry, I'm looking, calling it the MTA alert bot, pulling data from the MTA's general transit
feed specification and basically just doing this in, you know, in the hacker spirit and
was not pardon me, not pulling in bus information because, you know, it would have broken the
API, but at the $100 level, I thought it was a very interesting way that this dude
jumped in to kind of stop gap.
Well, how did people get his updates?
They just subscribe to this.
I think he's gone.
Is it still up?
I see it.
The second one down there has not tweeted in a week.
So I think it may have once the API, once the MTA got back on the API, I think he may
have dropped out.
Or maybe everything is running on time for a week.
That could happen.
It could.
It could happen.
It's to the world where you're living, if that is the case.
But yes.
The screen name of this account that he had set up is MTA underscore alerts underscore
bot.
And did it have a blue check?
Because you can just buy them now.
Here's the thing.
Imagine this Will Davis character was evil.
OK, and just wanted to spread bad information, was able to get a blue check, have a username
that says MTA and it's somewhere.
How would you know the difference?
You know, the only way you could possibly know is if you look into the history, saw
who had more followers, who was around longer.
But, you know, the problem with Twitter right now is that there is no actual verification
that something is real as opposed to completely made up and bogus.
And I don't know how they're going to get that trust back.
Nor do I.
And the fact that they're now talking about getting purging accounts that haven't been
used in however long, how I'm, again, thinking about people who used to have Twitter accounts
who are no longer living, you know, and how we're not going to have a mass impersonation
of dead people.
This is so simple to solve, though.
You can have archived sites of people who have passed away.
You know, there's simply a way of coordinating that.
But they have to take an interest in doing it so that those sites are preserved, not
taken over by fake people, not presumed to be inactive simply because the people aren't
alive anymore.
But at the same time, other accounts which just were abandoned by people for lack of
interest, yeah, they shouldn't just be lying around for 10 years.
And, you know, a great example of that is one that we've been trying to get for years.
And this is something Elon Musk could actually help with if he was truly interested in this,
because the old Twitter wasn't able to do anything about it.
But there is the Twitter account called Hope.
And we run a conference called Hope Hackers on Planet Earth.
We would love to have that Twitter account.
It has not tweeted in years.
It's not run by anybody.
How do we get it?
We've tried.
We've asked.
We've done all kinds of things.
And I just know it's going to wind up in the hands of somebody who is going to squat on
it or try to sell it for millions of dollars or something like that.
But boy, that would be nice.
That would be nice if we could actually get something out of this.
At what cost?
At what cost?
No cost.
Twitter doesn't cost anything except for your brain cells.
All right.
Thank you to our program director, Linda, for forwarding this piece of news to us.
New York Attorney General Letitia James has secured $615,000 from three companies,
LCX, LeadID, or is it LeadID?
Not really sure.
And Efficient, spelled wrong.
Spelled with an I instead of an E, which I don't know if that makes many less efficient.
But anyway, they supplied millions of fake public comments to influence a 2017 proceeding
by the Federal Communications Commission to repeal net neutrality rules.
Remember that?
We reported on this.
Fake comments.
Lots and lots of fake comments.
Now, net neutrality prohibits broadband providers from blocking, slowing down, or charging companies
to prioritize certain content on the internet.
An investigation by the Office of the Attorney General found that the fake comments use the
identities of millions of consumers, including thousands of New Yorkers, without their knowledge
or consent.
Collectively, the three companies have agreed to pay $615,000 in penalties and disgorgement.
Okay.
Alex, I'm going to ask you.
One, in God's name, is disgorgement.
And where does the $615,000 go?
And how does it help the situation?
Well, the disgorgement essentially means that it was money that they made from the activity
that they shouldn't have been performing.
And so now they're being disgorged, right?
Now it's being taken away from them.
This is fascinating, though, because, yeah, this really confirms what we were talking
about several years ago, which we had all suspected that there was astroturfing of these
particular comments.
But what's really odd to me, and I'm not aware of the story until you just read it moments
ago, what's odd to me is that there are some corporate structures associated with that
astroturfing, so that this was some kind of service that people had purchased.
Perhaps as a massive scale, what would be really interesting to me is, you know, for
what else did they provide these bogus comments?
Yeah, that's a great point, because the logic might follow that, okay, so who were the clients?
Because if that's their business, this might be just a cost of doing business that they're
going to write off based on their clientele already having foot the bill for whatever
activities they were doing.
Can I just read a bit of this press release?
Because it really, I think, gives an idea of how sleazy this was.
Basically, this is all part of an investigation by OAG, the Office of the Attorney General.
It uncovered widespread fraud and abusive practices surrounding efforts to sway the
FCC in the agency's 2017 net neutrality rulemaking proceeding.
As detailed in a report by OAG, the nation's largest broadband companies funded a secret
campaign to generate millions of comments to the FCC in 2017.
These comments provided cover for the FCC to repeal net neutrality rules.
To help generate these comments, the broadband industry engaged commercial lead generators
that used advertisements and prizes like gift cards and sweepstakes entries to encourage
consumers to join the campaign.
However, nearly every lead generator that was hired to enroll consumers in the campaign
instead simply fabricated consumers' responses.
As a result, more than eight and a half million fake comments that impersonated real people
were submitted to the FCC and more than half a million fake letters were sent to Congress.
How are people not going to jail for this?
I don't get that.
$615,000 seems like nothing as a penalty for this kind of fraud.
And, you know, the FCC ruled on this and they did not rule in a good way.
Should this be reversed as a result of all this?
Yeah, that's light as far as charges.
Yeah, I agree.
I agree with Kyle.
$615,000 does not seem like a success story here for the Attorney General, I have to say.
I had no idea that they actually concluded that the clientele were the broadband companies here
that actually profit from the repeal of net neutrality rules.
This is totally insane.
I mean, this should be a much, much bigger story.
It sounds like they were insulated by having contracted them and, I mean, to that end,
it sounds like they got away with it.
Straight up because we know how the FCC ruled.
Yeah.
I mean, the only way in which I think that would be a reasonable conclusion of this investigation
would be if the broadband companies contracted with this lead company, whatever it is,
this corporate entity that provided essentially astroturfing as a service,
and the broadband companies had no idea what they were doing on their behalf.
But you do have to assume some responsibility for the actions of your agents, right?
I mean, you hired them to do something.
What did the contract say?
What was it that they thought they were going to be doing and was there any auditing?
I mean, I'd love to see the communications about this at the time because this really does seem
like an issue of public trust, and if an agency action was predicated on those comments,
coming from what they thought were real people, then the agency action, to me, seems to be
invalid.
I think there would be grounds to bring a lawsuit alleging that the agency action was,
in fact, arbitrary and capricious or not predicated properly.
Yeah.
It doesn't seem nearly strong enough, as far as I'm concerned, a reaction to this should
be outrageous, not just on the part of the attorney general, on the part of all of us.
This is outrageous.
And yeah, you're right.
It should be much more in the news.
It should be headlines in every newspaper.
Go ahead, Rob.
It should definitely be much more in the news, but about the $615,000 not being enough punishment,
I think if you look at it as this was the attorney general of New York getting it back for
the New Yorkers who were affected by this, and there are 49 more states in the union
with their own attorneys general who can now follow suit, so to speak.
And so if this piles up, if more states take the lead on this and follow up, this could
turn out to be a lot more of a punishment for them.
Have you seen some of the attorneys general in, did I say that right, Alex?
Attorneys general in other states?
They're too busy fighting the trans community and making sure nobody ever gets an abortion
again to care about people actually being defrauded in this manner.
You know, my hopes are high, but realistically, I don't know.
Okay.
Well, we have this update for Google.
You know, if you try this, folks, if you go to Google News, right, there's a technology
section.
I just tried this a little before the show.
I know about that section.
You know about that section?
Okay.
So you get a bunch of technology headlines, maybe six of them, but you can click on the
word technology.
Then you get a whole lot of stories.
Yeah, that's all of them.
But I noticed that the first at least 10, maybe a dozen stories are only about Google.
Yeah.
Have you noticed that?
And then below that, there's nothing about it.
It's all Apple.
It's all Twitter.
It's other companies, but they really put themselves up on top.
Now, I don't think that was a coincidence.
No, not at all.
This section in general for news, I've found it's hard to take.
It really is.
It's a lot.
It's all sort of industry self-aggrandizement or something.
Like you said, it's these four companies.
It's very highly concentrated, just certain types of technology, and that's it.
And I feel like it really narrows what technology is.
I find and in fact, prefer the science category over technology because it's just so commercial.
And now, yeah, just one company, the very company that you're using this news filter on.
Yes, Rob.
Yeah, I pulled it up just now.
And even allowing for different people getting different Google results, because that's how
it works now.
The first eight results on this page are Google's releasing this.
Google's producing that.
Google's doing this.
Isn't it great?
And the eighth story is not about Google.
Instead, it's about Elon Musk slamming Meta's WhatsApp.
So it's not about Google, but it's about how terrible their competition is.
And look out for Android, too.
Sometimes the Android story will slip in there, which is also Google.
Yeah, after that, the ninth story is now about a vulnerability in Windows.
But it's a vulnerability.
Again, it's something bad.
It's not Microsoft is releasing this.
And I'm not saying Microsoft needs any more positive platforms.
But I think this is kind of an abuse of a news aggregator.
Well, and you're so focused on your own brand.
It seems like you could maybe reserve that for what everybody else is doing.
You know, that make it kind of fresh.
People that might see a lot of Google stuff because you're in that ecosystem.
How kind of eye-opening would it be to just maybe not have so much of that in that particular
section so you can compare and see what the rest of the so-called technology category is up to?
You know what I prefer, though?
Google's busy.
They have all kinds of things going on.
Everything's simmering on the oven there.
And they're important.
Let's take, you know, they don't have to do this.
Let's instead have another company come up with a news aggregator
that does a better job than Google News, because, boy, Google News has become so useless.
Every story you click on, they want money to read.
You know, you can't subscribe to every newspaper in the world.
So what is the point of having an aggregator that shows you all these
stories you could read if you were a subscriber to that particular newspaper?
Used to be that if you went there through Google News,
that you'd be able to read the story.
That was the whole point.
And now it's kind of pointless.
You can see the headlines, not much more.
Subscribe to a newspaper.
You don't have to subscribe to all of them, but maybe like a local one that
you got a soft spot for.
Especially a local one.
Absolutely.
Everyone did that.
You might have a lot more free stories on Google.
Subscribe to a newspaper that you believe in.
Let's say the Washington Post or the New York Times or somebody you think is, you know,
maybe they do a bad job occasionally, but mostly they do a good job.
But also something local that covers your community.
That's run by human beings.
That's run by human beings that basically you're supporting them rather than just
looking online and having, you know, artificial intelligence do it.
Because that's what's going to happen.
Alex?
I mean, I think you can bring this right back full circle to the Long Island
Telephone Museum because apparently you guys learned about the museum from Newsday.
Yes.
So there you go.
There's the cause and effect.
Anyway, the story I wanted to read about Google.
Yeah, I'm glad we took that long to get to it.
They are announcing major generative AI-powered updates to their search engine.
What the hell does that mean?
Well, it means that Google is now moving its BARD, artificial intelligence entity,
into the Google search bar.
So according to this particular story.
How do we even know Google is in control of that?
Maybe BARD just decided it was taking over.
This could be straight from BARD, yeah.
But this story, which came from Yahoo or a bot that works at Yahoo,
says that if you search for something like,
good bike for five-mile commute with hills,
search will then provide you with the generative AI page,
which will provide you with a list of suggestions for things to look for
when searching for bikes for commuting.
And below that, you'll see potential follow-up questions you can ask,
which will pull you into a conversation panel,
complete with the ability to link directly to bike retailer websites.
Yeah, during a live stage demo,
BARD pulled up answers for why do whales like to sing.
The app quickly provided a list of potential reasons for why whales sing,
provided images of whales, and allowed the user to ask follow-up questions.
Google is positioning generative AI as a future of search.
And as the company's most important product and largest revenue source,
it's no wonder it's moving fast to add the capability to the platform.
Um, yeah, this is going to be interesting.
You're going to be pulled into a conversation every time you ask a question now,
uh, in, in Google, might even remember previous questions that you asked.
So, um, I don't know, good, bad, scary.
What do you guys think?
Do we think anything?
Look, I, I think, I think it's inevitable, right?
I mean, I think this is something that,
that Microsoft had been, uh, already putting in place.
And I think that we see Google getting really scared about this.
So I think that they're rushing to get BARD connected into the search engine too,
because people's conception of what it means to search for information on the internet
has really changed over the last couple of months.
I mean, since the beginning of 2023, when we started talking about
chat GPT and all that it's been up to and all the amazing things that you can do.
And I think that maybe it wasn't even the beginning of 2023,
maybe it was the last quarter of 2022 when things started to really change.
But if you think about it, and we've talked about this in the past too,
but you do a search for anything on Google and you have to scroll through,
you know, a whole bunch of paid advertisements that nobody trusts anymore.
Some of them might even be malicious.
Some of them are definitely misleading.
And it does seem like, and I'm sure Google feels like,
their search engine is quickly becoming outdated.
So they have to migrate over to this natural language searching and still have the veneer
of a technology company that's on the cutting edge.
And they can't do that without plugging into the BARD system.
So I see them doing this as almost as an emergency measure
to save the relevance of Google searches.
But I also wonder about whether it's premature.
I kind of hear that.
Like it may be like too early, the whole diving in to it.
But there's another thing that I'm getting out of this.
I think it's sort of overdue and appropriate.
Like it is the technological tool that I think people are,
that we have been using in a way that this evolution is really conducive to.
Like natural language in search, people have been talking to Google
as though it was sort of AI or sentient.
I mean, maybe not without all the like arguments and pluses
and things that you can do to sort of guide Google to give you better results,
which there are things, ways you can type and enter.
That's an entire field of study we could go off on.
But the point is now it's sort of here.
It's actually here.
And whenever I actually, it's just to me a good fit.
And I think they were pushed in a lot of ways by Microsoft,
maybe because of their own cautiousness.
So in other words, maybe what we think might be rushed
has actually been a long, long time coming from the inside,
looking out as far as product development goes.
So there is kind of an excitement that I have for this at the same time.
I got to say, though, as far as artificial intelligence,
search results and explanations of various things that you ask it,
I think Bard is lagging.
I really do.
I think Chad GPT is doing a much better job.
I just asked Bard right now, briefly, tell me the history of WBAI.
I got so many facts wrong.
It said WBAI's first broadcast took place on May 1st, 1955.
Well, it didn't.
It took place in 1960.
I believe in January.
It just made up a date.
Yeah.
And I get this.
Here are some programs that have aired over WBAI.
Democracy Now.
Okay, they got that right.
The Lionel Hampton Show, jazz program hosted by Lionel Hampton.
Lionel Hampton do a show on WBAI?
I mean, if they did, I didn't know about it.
The Takeaway, a daily news and interview program hosted by John Hockenberry.
I thought he was on NPR.
But you'll see things like this all the time, where all kinds of things that sound right,
they sound credible, but they're wrong.
They're fake.
And yet it's presented as truth.
And I just worry that people are going to start believing this.
And you can basically ask any question.
For instance, I was asking for a list of monarchs in the United Kingdom in the
19th century, and I was told there were none.
And I know that's not true.
And I even confronted Bart about this saying, but look, this person was a monarch.
How do you explain that?
And Bart said, oh, I made a mistake.
I'm sorry.
That's not good enough because it continues to do the same thing even after you've corrected it.
So it's going to be a very interesting adventure that we're all embarking on right now.
I'm all for embarking upon it.
But let's not take it too seriously.
Let's realize what we're getting into.
Yeah.
I think because it could become very close to home.
How long before your home assistant device is asking Bart questions or somehow fused with it,
and all of a sudden you're having this much more powerful conversation
with your home assistant device, you can see the pathway.
I mean, Siri on your smartphones and so forth.
There's a lot of stuff here that has been sort of sizzling,
and it's now the foundation for something anew.
Okay.
So this weekend is Eurovision.
I don't know how many people in the United States know this,
but Eurovision is an annual song contest.
And experts from the National Cyber Security Center have been called in
after the government and Eurovision organizers raised concerns that the competition could
become a digital front of the Ukraine war.
If you recall, last year, Ukraine won the contest,
which meant that the contest should have been held in Ukraine this year,
instead of being held in England,
because obviously you don't want to have Eurovision in a war zone.
A senior Whitehall official said the biggest worry was the potential hacking of the voting system.
Like last year, when police in Italy, where the contest was staged,
said the Killnet Hacker Group targeted the first semifinal and the grand final.
This year's contest will be held in Liverpool.
It will have reinforced cyber defenses by NCSC experts
working with the Home Office and the Department for Science.
In 2022, Italian police managed to thwart attacks by pro-Russian hackers
at the competition in Turin,
especially during performances of the Kalish Orchestra,
which represented Ukraine and won the contest.
We are actually going to go out with that particular song from the Kalish Orchestra,
the winner of last year's Eurovision.
This year's Eurovision contest will be held in Liverpool, I believe on Saturday, the final,
which I'm pretty sure you can watch on YouTube.
Not entirely certain about that, but it's a lot of fun.
It really is.
Music might not be your cup of tea,
but the enthusiasm certainly is something we can all get behind.
Next week, maybe we'll play the winner of that particular contest.
We're coming back in just a few minutes over on YouTube.
Go to channel 2600 or simply click on the link on the 2600.com webpage.
It's your opportunity to give us a call if there's something you'd like to talk to us about,
or to just hear our voices for another few minutes.
You can write to us, oth at 2600.com,
and you can tune in again next week at 7pm on WBAI
for another exciting broadcast of Off The Hook.
But again, at 8 o'clock, we will be on YouTube, channel 2600, for overtime.
And now, from Ukraine, last year's Eurovision winner, the Kalish Orchestra.
Good night.
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, 
Mama, where are you? I'm plowing the field, and it blooms. Sing to me, mama, a lullaby.
I want to feel your wind again.
Mama, where are you? I'm plowing the field, and it blooms.
Sing to me, mama, a lullaby.
I want to feel your wind again.
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, 
WBAI's Local Station Board, the Pacifica Foundation Board responsible for local management and operations, is holding its next regular meeting on Wednesday, May 10th at 7 p.m.
As events unfold within the Pacifica Network and multiple stations cope with financial weakness, it's important for the LSB to identify and keep up with what local priorities should be.
We're working to ensure that a robust WBAI 99.5 FM remains where the 99.5% can find it on the dial.
Again, the LSB meeting is Wednesday, May 10th at 7 p.m.
The meeting will be held through the Zoom remote meeting service.
The meeting, accessible to the public, includes an opportunity for public comment.
The fastest and easiest way to join the meeting is by using the link on the Pacifica calendar at kpftx.org and on the WBAI website.
You can also access the meeting by calling 929-205-6099.
That's 929-205-6099.
And enter this meeting ID, 922-457-2995.
Enter your meeting ID again, 922-457-2995.
And as if that wasn't enough numbers, we also have a password.
The password is 995, like BAI's frequency.
So it's 995-995-99.
Do you have to contribute to WBAI to access the meeting?
No, but we sure hope that you do.
212-209-2950 to support WBAI in New York City.
And welcome to everybody on YouTube, it's off-the-hook
overtime
Emanuel here Kyle you make it. Okay. Yes
Rob
Good evening. Hello and Gila. Hi there. I
Understand Alex was called at the last minute to attend the the the Trump Town Hall
Which is taking place opposite us right now and priorities are priorities after all. I hope he gets his questions
Well, he's got he's got somebody's got to take charge
What do you think about that
Do you know I know right now at this moment
CNN is is hosting a so-called
Donald Trump Town Hall in New Hampshire
But what I just found out was that it's not really a town hall because they're only letting Republicans in
So, how is this not a Trump rally that CNN is just coordinating? It's a town
Pander it's terrible. It's absolutely awful
I
Guess I know I know a lot of mainstream news outlets really miss having their you know, cash cow of a
Candidate in office, you know, there was something happening every day something I catching a headline grabbing every single day
Look George Santos got arrested today. Isn't that enough? Come on?
It was a good day. We can we can you know, we don't need this. Nobody needs this. Okay, but honestly
Define Republican, you know as far as who they're letting in. I mean, how's that gonna go pretty much?
Any anybody anybody is allowed at this point? Well, what is the criteria anymore?
You just say like a certain few
Of the talking points and like is there some kind of fist bump or whatever? I
Don't know. I think they put swatches up on you
Like when they used to do your colors and if you look okay in red, you can get in. Oh, okay. Okay
well, that's what's happening right now and that might be why our
Listenership is is down a bit than what it usually is. Well, the phone lines open are the phone lines open?
Okay, 802-321-4225 is our telephone number in case everybody wants to call us and if nobody wants to call us
Nobody wants to say anything. We'll make it a quick night. That's fine. That's that's what you can do on YouTube
You can just stop any time you want you can take it. Yeah
Yes, what's going on in the rest of the world and any any news from anybody else
There is there is some sad news to share just about a member of the WBA I family
Some some of our listeners may know that we had to say goodbye to Tony Ryan
who was a who was a member of BAI staff for a very long time hosted the soul central station music program and
he passed away about a week ago and
There is a call for help with expenses that is set up by his children
So if any of you out there are able to help with such a thing
Go to go fund me calm and do a search for Tony Ryan
You'll find you'll find the the fundraiser for his final expenses. He will be much missed by all of us at BAI
Absolutely. Always a friendly face that greeted us whenever we would come by in the studios
and
Mr. Kind soul and not just there everywhere. We would see him out and about. Mm-hmm
down at protests or whatever he'd bring like
He I remember seeing him with a guitar. I think Wow walking around one just recognize us
acknowledge us, you know friends from the from the
Control room that kind of thing and the hallways
Getting enough fun premiums to people and stuff and yeah, and you know all the things it takes to do the
Community radio thing and he was so dedicated. He he was great. Yeah
Robin any any other news? I do go to the meeting this this week. I
Did it was it was very well populated a lot of older faces that?
Have not been to the 2600 meetings in a long time have been showing up lately
and it's really nice to see people catch up with them, you know, what you've been up to for the past 20 years and
It is it is all around a good time. I'm you know, I I am always happy to go
I'm always happy to speak with people and it's always just a very
refreshing and fulfilling experience
yeah, Kayla, yeah, you're making a
face of possible
Possible addiction there. I I smiled. I I heard it was lovely
I was not able to be there, but I heard it was lovely and I'm looking forward to the June meeting
That's all and the June meeting of course as all 2600 meetings take place on the first Friday of the month
Usually about 5 p.m. But time starting times can vary
Go to 2600 comm slash meetings to see what what time the meeting in your area starts
And if you don't have a meeting in your area, there are instructions on how you can start one
What is the 2600 meeting it's not, you know a meeting with with an agenda and
People sitting in chairs and raising their hands and anything like that
No, it's basically a gathering where you talk to the people you want to talk to
You meet people you stay as long as you want. It's very informal and
You know hearing from people who have gone to meetings over the years say from the 80s or 90s
You realize how much that meant to people, you know
We had space rogue on here a bunch of weeks ago talking about how in the early days of the loft
2600 meetings were how people got together. I had no idea that it carried that kind of weight
but it really is it's something to realize how much it means for people just to be able to get together and
That's why we continue to do the hope conferences
It's it's just something important for the hacker community and it is such an incredible community always
Always giving back always building always being creative and
Happy to be a part of it. All right. I believe we have a phone call. Do we have a phone call Kyle?
Yeah, okay. The phone number for future reference is
eight zero two three two one
four two two five the four two two five of course spells hack and
Good evening. You are on overtime
Hi there
Great topic at the beginning and I'm going to spend on that
Well, Alex has made some questionable choices in the past whom I called him on
online on this on this forum and
This seems to be another one
But I think it's an historical moment because this may be the very night
when Trump becomes radioactive
And we will know
If as I predict in this very moment and thank you for producing this authority that made me realize this
CNN which is already in trouble
It's finally auctioning off its credibility
for a very limited return its ratings are going to go down in the drain, I believe and
You know
Alex unknowingly is going to witness the beginning of the end of CNN. I
Think that you know, it's not just a verdict per se. It's the whole
momentum is
finally turning around against Trump because people are starting to realize and
CNN is performing a public service. Hang on. Wait, hold on a second. Was that Alex on camera just now?
Did we just see him? He's waving. No, I think I saw him in the crowd. I mean, he might be okay. I'm sorry
If a friend of ours is at a major event like this you kind of want to see you know
Maybe he'll take this. Okay, maybe maybe he'll be the one to keep Trump from attacking somebody else
You know, he might be the person to save someone's life
Well, he'll put himself in the line of fire like that. He's like to stand up kind of a guy
And and Trump is easy to attack
Okay, we'll find we'll find out but you know
I think one thing that won't be lacking there is pro-trump security of all kinds
So I hope Alex doesn't get in trouble in that regard, but he's a lawyer. He knows what's what?
At least in terms of what is that's right. What is legal and what's not legal and
Well, depending if he's looking for publicity or not, I don't think he's going to do anything
Hazardous or hazardous whichever way you want to put the accent, but no, I really believe that
yeah, the tide is turning and
The people who have been profiting especially in the media
Following this so to say Trump phenomenon
You know, I've been in New York more than 40 years and I remember
When I first arrived and people were talking about this
So to say young ski on he was in his 30s then
this
dubious real estate tycoon
his father
Who was trying to build on Fifth Avenue? I forget if he
He evicted gimbals from Fifth Avenue or some other big-name
Department store, but I think it was in my opinion
And he started to build this
eponymous tower, which is you know, just
Reflects his value glitz everywhere value nowhere except for in the rent he charges
and
Location location location that's really the philosophy of the guy
Which I found, you know, I found basically as a reason immigrant back then
I found the
How can I say the excess of all what's wrong about American society and it was very clear to me
Ever since I might have already said on this program that to my great surprise once I was in his presence and
In spite of my I wouldn't call it hatred but in
Sufferance towards that character and what he represents he makes you feel good when you are
You know in the same room and I was very surprised and I said, okay
I really can't stand the guy but I have to give him this he does have charisma
Wait, so hold on a second. You were in the same you're in the same room as
As Trump, you know, and he made you feel good
Yes
Interesting, he has this quality about him, you know, we were at a restaurant
Literally four or five yards away at separate tables. He was entertaining
You could you could you could hit him with a we could have him with a dinner roll easily
I could have well, you know in in an ideal world if this had been the matrix I
I dreamt of going back to the same place, you know shooting him and then then making off and
Well, and you know I'm being interviewed by the police and saying oh the guy looked exactly like me yeah, that's that's
that's going over the line, but
yeah, we
We all have our dreams. I suppose I mean
Exactly. Yes
Can we move the subject to something other than this guy because I just brought it up just for fun at the top of
The hour and and you did right but I really think it's it's a pivotal moment in that
you know mark my words and maybe I will be proven wrong, but I think that
CNN has crossed the line and considering the fact that you know, at least in their rhetoric and in their
PRs they have appeal to sensible audience
People will really count on them today
Well, what I what I found out what I found out recently and I was surprised by this is that MSNBC has far higher
Ratings and CNN I thought it was the other way around and I found I found MSNBC to be a lot more palatable recently
first of all
they have about half as many commercials CNN is always having commercials and every I turn them on and
They're not trying to both sides everything, you know, I could I could see if it was a race, you know
Biden versus Trump if that's what it turns into. Yeah, Trump is gonna get some airtime, but that's not the case not yet
Anyway in this particular case
You have many people that are saying they're going to run and they're thinking about running
So to give this guy all of this free attention and then on top of that to simply exclude anybody who might criticize him
So that's only Republicans in the room with him. No or independents that are likely to vote Republican. That's insane
I don't know what kind of but but that those are the terms Trump insisted on and
Because of that he is running the show. He is literally running the show and
He went to CNN and not Fox for something like this. That's very telling
Well, you you say that yourself. My question is rhetorical. Where is the both side is in other words?
where's the other side and
So, you know their pretense of being the objective the thinking network
It's total crap and this this shows it for what it is
I mean they have already showing it and that's why their attendance would say is down
And but it's going to be much lower because I think what they're doing is an unashamed play
for
Tucker Carlson
You know because I I'm not sure about this, but I think he went on at the same time not having a TV
I will never know but I think he went on at this time
So it's like saying hey Trumpers
you are missing your your front man will bring you the real thing and
Come what may and what may you know?
Maybe they did actually do
Although I think even the advertiser a little more sophisticated not in terms of politics
But in terms of simply saying who are we selling to how many people are really going to watch and what are we selling to whom?
You know considering also the very short notice. I don't know that it's going to be such a fantastic
commercial return on this
Quite the contrary so it will be really interesting to see but I think that you know with this they lose
to any claim of objectivity that they might have ever had and
As I said, they were already wobbling in terms of credibility, but this this is really a watershed moment
They're not just for CNN because a lot of people are starting to realize and I'm talking middle-of-the-road people not you know
Trumpers or
Die hard pink
Democrats or that you know, this is all being about ratings
We you know this this wreck of a personality aside from his charisma was wrought
over us by
Advertisers or not the advertisers but the people who pander to the advertisers the media saying oh this sells
Hey, do you want to buy some space here? We're having this clown that is running for president and the joke
Unfortunately became not very funny once he got quote elected because you know as I like to say
He still convinced he won in 2020 and he has an argument because he lost in in 2000
Well, he didn't lose right technically won
But this is the only country in the world where you wind up with three million less votes than your opponent
And you're the winner everywhere else. You're called the loser, but here you are the winner
So he says wow this time I got even more votes less. I got eight million less
So, of course in fairness in fairness
In fairness though, there are the countries that do it similarly to us like Belarus North Korea places like that
Where no matter how many votes you get
You will never go democracy, right? Yes, North Korea and and yellow some of the most
Lauded democratic countries in the world
So there we are. We're on the same level at the same the same system as North Korea and Belarus
Thank you for pointing that out. Well, it's it's logical unfortunately and anything else before we move on to another call
No, that's great. I'm glad someone else called. So I hope I started the ball rolling enjoy and thank you so much for all your
Work. Thank you for your call
Take care of it
Did someone else call how would he know if someone else called and we only have one lines
The line is now open the line is now open and the phone number remains
802 3 2 1 4 2 2 5
Yes, Gila. Well while we wait for the next call, we did have an update on a news story from last week. Oh
Tell us yes when last week when we spoke about the fact that Pornhub
Decided that it was just blacking out in Utah in response to the new law that went into effect a week ago today
I forgot to VPN to Utah to try and log on to Pornhub. I forgot to do that
Interestingly enough the governor we're looking at a story on tech dirt right now. The governor is said cool. That's great
You don't want to be here. We don't want you here get out
The guy who sponsored the bill was like I didn't know this was going to happen. This is shocking
What are you saying, but then wait it gets better the
Public Affairs arm the trade group, excuse me of the adult entertainment industry
Is suing the state of Utah?
On First Amendment grounds, okay, and
They say that
All right, check it out. The act violates the First Amendment several respects
Violates the 14th Amendment and violates the Equal Protection Clause. I found this very interesting
The acts exemption of certain news organizations draws impermissible content based distinctions among persons engaged in free space
violating the Equal Protection Clause
so
Will be interesting to see where this goes
But yes, I did think it was very interesting that
Utah is now being sued over this new law
Interesting now you said the guy who sponsored the bill seemed surprised by but what's happening. It's almost sounded like he was
Kind of regretting it, but why would he oh
No, no. So, okay. He said to Ars Technica when I ran the legislation last February
I didn't expect adult porn sites to be blocked at Utah
Not at all, then he spoke to a local TV affiliate and said they're complying with Louisiana's law
Which is essentially the same so I expect they'll eventually comply with Utah's as well. And then he told the LA Times
I think this is a strategy
They're trying to put the pressure on me and other legislators to repeal this and I don't think that's gonna work. So he's just basically
Playing all sides with this response right now
But yes, there is an official legal challenge to it and I will be interested to see where we go from here
Interesting any of our listeners in Utah
Would like to let us know if this is something they're aware of or if it's affecting them in any way
please either write to us OTH at
2600 comm or call us 802 3 2 1 4 2 2 5 and we'll leave the phone lines open for another couple of minutes
See if anyone else is out there
Yes, get up. Also. I had another which has nothing to do with porn, but it doesn't do what we talked about earlier
which is the
local the transit in Pittsburgh
The husband of one of my best friends is now obsessed with Pittsburgh's we're all talking about it a lot and in Pittsburgh
They have the light rail, which is great, but they also have inclines they have the oldest
funicular railroad in the country funiculars are great is in Pittsburgh Wow
Yeah, now how would you would describe what that is to somebody who doesn't know?
If I'm not mistaken
It is a rail car that like climbs up the outside of a mountain pretty much and it terrifies me conceptually
I'm definitely afraid of heights
But I did think it was an important thing to mention that in addition to buses and light rail the Pittsburgh
municipal
Transit organization is in charge of these two funicular railroads. There's one in Quebec City, which is also really impressive and
There's all throughout you in Lisbon, yes, they're they're all over the place not so many in the States. I wish there were more
Used to be a bunch more
Both around and in Pittsburgh, but
Again, 802 3 2 1 4 2 2 5 8 0 2 3 2 1 hack. Give another couple of minutes. Hey, it's
Funicular early night for us. I'd be that'd be kind of a welcome. Well not having Alex, of course
But people people don't want to call Alex isn't here because there's nobody to argue with
That's it's Alex's own fault. I mean he was all excited to go to the what is it the cyber security gathering of the juggalos or?
Yeah, they didn't bring us with him so, you know
Something disturbance. Yeah, I mean, it's not like disruption disruption con or something. How do you schedule for that? I have so many questions
Yeah, I
Guess schedule at the same time as another event that's going on and you just barge in on it. I
Guess that qualifies. Yeah, that makes sense
That or just think edgy thoughts
Absolutely
The phone line is still open is it
So it is no longer ringing now though
Shall we
Sorry accept this call. We're all so excited. Yes. Let's accept it. Please. Good evening. You're on off the go for time. Go ahead
Hi, Johnny fusion. Hey, Johnny fusion. How you doing?
I'm doing pretty good. Okay, that's good to hear
Barred business going on with Google that you talked about on the radio. Yes bard boy
That's gonna be something
You know and you know my latest article I talked a little bit about AI but I didn't you know
I talked about it, you know more about how it's impacting creative and we have the
you know, the writer guild strike right now, and that's one of the
points about
Not having AI written scripts
And and stuff, you know, they don't want to be replaced by AI writers
you know, but with
But with such results as you said these things
Hallucinate they make up crap all the time
because
You know, they're called AI because they use kind of like this neural net for
These large language models, but they're not really
Intelligent they're not doing cognition
You know, they're not really
self-aware at all
they're just
following grammar and syntax
Yeah, I was just gonna say playing patient playing with the syntax in a nonsensical way
But in a way that fits structurally from from pattern recognition really, right?
Yeah, yeah, and you know
It appears to make sense because their data set is so large
I mean, they're called large language models. I think people don't really realize
What the large really means? I mean, these are like
Peter bite of
Sample text. Yeah, they're drawing from
Every way of saying things in every kind of context and in on any different kind of subject matter
Yeah
Yeah, even when we say Peter bite
That doesn't like people don't fathom how large
That actually is
You know, it's just like and it's multiple Peter bite
You know, it's like it's literally everything on the internet ever and
it's
ridiculous amounts of
Information with no understanding. It's it's basically black boxing language
Yeah, absolutely it's
It was well described in a disgusting in a discussion that I saw on mastodon yesterday
Which described it as snapping together word Legos and random strings that happen to make smooth shapes
This was by someone called Mikey at Soylent green on mastodon
Basically describing this as this is a text sequence extender. It doesn't lie. It doesn't learn it's basically just
Slaps things together that seem to fit based on what it knows about language. It doesn't know the facts
It doesn't know with if things are correct or incorrect. It is just very able to put together a confident sounding sentence
And it was further described as you're not learning anything. You're arguing with a distorted echo
Yeah, yeah, I mean
And
You know, it's it's basically a magic trick
Right. It's just Eliza writ large
Yes
Yes, you know Eliza being the very first
AI chat bot, you know, which was written in basic
run on
Very primitive hardware like I had a copy of Eliza on running on the Apple to
Right with 16 kilobytes of RAM, you know, well that will few plots had 16 kilobytes that was the upgrade, right?
Loaded off the cassette tape
You know and if you use tricks to talk like
like a therapist
yes, you know and
And I think it was invented in the 60s or 70s
And
We talked to these would talk to this program for hours, you know, maybe that talks to something about you know, the mindset of
computer nerds and how lonely we are for interaction that we would talk to a primitive program for hours, but
You know these large language models are just a more convincing
Illusion of this but there's no they're there
you know, which is and and it's unfortunate because it comes because it is
It rose with the same time with these art programs which I think shows real creativity
You know
Which is a whole different phenomenon because this has
Interactive neural nets that actually does show
understanding of language because it's taking language and interpreting it artistically even though I
Don't know. It's just like playing with with
With the art generators, you know, there's just some
Creepy things maybe I'm falling for the illusion with the art but you know with people that have worked with it
You know, it seems to be a real creativity because there's things that it's creating that work in the original data set
you know
Even then and on on the subject of the visual art AI as a visual artist myself
I have some feelings about that, but I wanted to bring it back to you mentioned Eliza and
Yeah, it was created in the 1960s and
it was so persistent and it blew people's minds at the time because people didn't you know have the experience of talking to a
computer in sentences and getting sentences back so much so that people basically being fooled by a
computer conversation and attributing human characteristics to it is now known as the Eliza effect and
I encourage anyone listening to look into this if you haven't it's Eliza spelled with a Z and
You could just look that up on Wikipedia and find the software and it is it is a really fascinating piece of history
Or already been examples, I think in some of the interviews and the like employees that were working that were let go
in the Google case, but a lot of different
stories I've seen
from
local news and
I think even vice at one recently it's kind of scary when they talk to people who've like had strong connections with these
things you kind of are
Sympathetic on one hand and you're like, how did this unravel? Like how did you let it get to this or how did you spend?
so much time
and becoming so
absorbed in this but I think like
Johnny said that
the
The geekiness I guess the the intrigue and
Isolation maybe to a degree also and trying to find an affinity groups or
People that get you
That this might be a diversion
Useful one perfect form of isolation during the pandemic. Oh that too
This period of time is the perfect, you know
It's like the perfect storm for this technology to arise where everybody's isolated
You know
So yeah, but it's a built-in need
Yeah
But you know and with the you know, and then you know, there's the whole phenomenon of
The replica AI which they market as a romantic part
You know where that where they feed it where they literally market into that loneliness and then there
a
mother to back there was like a whole thing where I
Italy said hey, this isn't safe and
They walked it back and then there was outcry from the rest of the world and these people that were
I would say addicted to their
Relationships with their replica girlfriends and boyfriends. Yeah, that was the vice story. I was thinking about they were covering that
story you're talking about and
Yeah, you know and that's who they slowly turned it back on without much fanfare and
If you ever want to go down the rabbit hole
All you have to do is look at the the replica subreddit on reddit and
That's all I'm gonna say about that, I mean you can look for yourself, you know, because there there are people there that are really into it
Yeah, and there was also an issue
Last last year. I believe one quarter. We we ran a story on on replica. I think
Someone was talking about that in one of the articles
All right, well, it's good hearing from you
Please guys updated to keep writing articles and we hope to hear from you again soon
yeah, you know and
I'm thinking about writing some more. I was gonna
Branch out. I wasn't gonna write for
I was gonna branch out right for Star Trek calm because they pay
But I'm gonna show some solidarity for the writers
Guild and hold off even though it's not technically TV, but they're you know a TV company
So I'm gonna show some solidarity. I mean, it'll keep Star Trek and AI is not going anywhere, right? So
Looking for other avenues. Well, you can always write you just you know, just don't release it to
anybody who could benefit from it, but
You know
You're not you're not breaking any rules by just writing, you know to yourself
True enough, but how they work, you know, they don't want finished
Essays they want pitches and then you write it. It's how they work. That's true
But so I'm not gonna pitch till the strikes over to them, but I might publish on medium or you know
You know or
other
zines or stuff that's not owned by CBS Paramount
Or I'm not owned by studios. And of course, I'll still be writing for the magazine as soon as the inspiration hits
Okay, look forward to seeing what you come up with
All right. Thank you. All right. Take care
You know, it's interesting the the writer's strike which is going on right now
One of the major concerns is artificial intelligence, you know chat GPT and I just wonder what
Specifically is artificial intelligence
doing in the
TV movie writing world
that
That is affecting human writers. Are they actually, you know, scripting TV shows and movies?
Rob, do you know something about this?
A little bit basically, it's not that it's being done right now in the field of mainstream TV and movies, but it's that it will be
And it's it's TV and movies. It's the TV and movie industry
Those who do the work for once wanting to get out ahead of something like this
because any AI that would be writing like a Star Trek episode or whatever else would be doing it by being trained on the writings of
Human writers and this is about those human writers wanting to be able to say don't use my stuff to train a robot to take
my job away from me, especially in the attempt of
Excuse me. The studio's wanted to continue to use existing IP
So you can you know continue writing?
Another Star Wars movie until the end of time. So one of my favorite signs. I've seen a picture of so far
Says a I didn't have childhood trauma
Yeah
Which I thought was very interesting but no I
They
Were moving
New York area members of all the guilds today to try to block some filming locations
but yes, the fact that the writers said we want specific discussions about how AI will be used going forward and
The AMP TP said we'll have one meeting a year to talk about it
Going forward. Uh-huh. Yeah, so
that
It's it's it's an interesting sort of situation
Can we get Chad GPT or Bart or any of those entities to promise?
Not to do anything that would hurt somebody who was on strike, right? I don't know how to ask the question
I don't know how to specifically phrase it. But I
Would like to get them on record saying yes, I won't be a scab
I mean they can say it all they want
But as we as we know what they say doesn't mean a whole lot
But it's also interesting a couple weeks months ago. What is time?
Alan Alda was did a whole episode of his podcast where he was just interviewing different AI
Robots basically and had them then spoken by different
voiceover bots the same way that you have done Emmanuel
But the thing that he didn't that he did that you didn't do was ask
one of the AI bots to write a new episode of mash and then he and Mike Farrell read it on his podcast and
It was bad. It was a I still doesn't get humor, which is interesting. Mm-hmm
AI as we have discovered is unfunny
so
You know, it was interesting to listen to that happen but
you know to
Have those pieces come back. I thought was interesting Wow
Go ahead Kyle. We have a call. Okay. Good evening. You're on off the govertime. Go ahead
Yes. Hi, it's rebel. How you doing rebel?
Good. Let's see. Hold on. Let me get my notes. You have notes. Really? Yeah. Wow
I'm honored that that we're deserving of notes. That's that's great
Maybe the other callers could have notes too so that we don't stray off topic
But you do you stray off topic more than anybody so how your notes well stick to your notes, how about that?
Okay
Yeah
You know, they have a call like if you ever had a call the phone company like Verizon or something like 1-800 Verizon
So like, you know
You know
If you like then they still have to call the business office
If you had a problem with your bill or a question or something like that. Yes
You know, I guess I won't call and demonstrate it or you know, but you know
Demonstrated over the air, but thank you. What it does is that if you don't have if you don't say anything
Well, maybe I should demonstrate. No, no, you shouldn't do it. It's not a good idea. Well, if you don't say anything, you know what it's
It says
We're aware we will
Your call may be monitored to train our systems and
Representatives meaning they're training their AI
You know
They're training their AI now
Well, they're training their students the newcomers. I guess that could be
Yeah, they're training the representatives, but they're training they have artificial intelligence now
That's true
So maybe artificial intelligence is listening in you don't know
Yeah, and if you don't know if you don't push button, like if you don't have a touch-tone phone, you know, it just hangs up
It just says we're sorry. You're having problems. You may want to try again later or something like that
Yeah, and it's very literal you were having problems and not embracing the technology
They want you to embrace and maybe try later when you've learned how to do that
That's what they're saying
Yeah, and you know
Many hundred numbers of the path
I can't listen to some of the old off-the-hook shows like when you call an 800 number of some sort like, you know
Would you call some 800 number back in like in 90s and some I try calling these, you know
The same 800 number it's the same thing. It just goes to the same
Recording that says, you know
Please listen carefully to this special offer or whatever. It's an offer from the 1990s
But
Five to one core, you know, maybe I won't demonstrate something
Is it really necessary rebels? Oh, let's let's make this fast and let's pull that band-aid off. Come go ahead
Wait a minute
Hold on
Again, they put on hold being put on hold by the callers raises a good point though
Like if you're talking to a billing system or you're talking to something that's handling customer info
and it's it got a back-end sort of
Modulized version of one of these machine learning group think cloud
What happens here? Sorry, I could not find this option
To reach Ryan Scott Preston. Okay. Sorry. I did not find this option. Is she responding to us to reach Ryan Scott?
Sorry, I could not find this option. No, what are we doing before? No never is
That's that's that's why I could not find this option demonstrate things on the air like this to reach Ryan
She find this option before sorry, I could not this option
Sorry, I could not option. In other words. Sorry, I could not find this
Don't you want to hang up on this
Sorry
You can hang up on us, you know, I'm willing to take that risk
Sorry, I could not find this this this rebel is a special kind of hell that you've never brought to us before
They give you 20 megabytes of sorry, I could not find this out like tethering
To reach the ring. Is there a button I can press? Yeah tethering
Yeah, they give you 20 gigabytes of megabytes something and then they don't you know, I used to be like 50 megabytes
Let's just be from my sprint. Now. It's like T-Mobile now
It gives you 20 megabytes now and then you know what it does when it when you know, it goes it goes to like 20
I could not
Rebel you're gonna have to get ready a friend here. She's driving me crazy. Well, I don't know
Sorry, I could not find this out you're responsible for her you brought her into this conversation you got to take her out
Yeah, okay, did you get rid of her no, yeah, all right, she's not coming back I hope
No
I said I don't think it's a good idea for you to connect to something on the air. Was I not proven, right?
Oh, yeah, maybe next time. You'll listen
Maybe next time you'll listen
When you get 20 you but it's a 288 he's like
Like it gets to 288 wouldn't if you like after like 20 megabytes of free tethering
Okay
What are you gonna tether for 20 minutes for 20 megabytes of today?
I I fell off this conversation a while back when when 20 megabytes for if it's 20 megabytes for 20 gig
Gigabytes
Yeah
Wireless carrier like T-Mobile. They will throttle you after you go over a certain amount and it becomes incredibly slow
And that's a terrible thing, especially if you're traveling. Yes happen to us
Always good to have a backup. This is one of the reasons, you know having a prepaid or a local cell phone
288 hello. We're not in the 90s. It's crazy. No, they really do they throw its punishment. They're like they're so
Overbearing about it. Some carriers will give you warning fair warning and all of that
so I I really I
Feel for you. That's why it's good to look for Wi-Fi to some warn you when you're at 90%
And that's not much time for you to change your habits and and avoid being throttled
Right, but then you get 50 you get Sprint you get 50 megabytes per month
Oh, this is something this is something worth comparing and maybe publicizing a little bit saying how many?
Megs or gigs or terabytes or whatever you get for each each phone company
Yeah
Mm-hmm. Yeah, because I know T-Mobile was offering
Unlimited data, but is that to
2g rates
That's ridiculous. No 5g. It's unlimited data when you're on your phone, but not when you're using your phone. It's a tethering thing
Yeah, when the speeds were much slower unlimited and larger packages seemed much more
They had they were they had less control over the devices in some ways
As far as turning features on and off the granularity, of course, and there was less
High bandwidth content it would have mainly been sort of like email and communications and so forth
So as it's sort of shifted the control over a lot of that stuff whether you can become a hotspot whether you can tether
That's changed too. And a lot of that is the upgrades and changes in handsets
allowing them to
Program and and set the terms of their their network
What was a lot of people and it feels like punishment in a lot of ways?
Well a lot of people swear by or and swear at actually our cable companies
But they do have hotspots all over the place
And if you log into one of those you get pretty high speeds if you don't have a cable account
You can always borrow somebody's password
Oftentimes it's it's it's not that big a deal to share that and then you can go virtually anywhere in in the area
And and always be assured of some kind of a connection
Right, but then they don't have touch-tone service like when I now you get like
You know, they don't give me touch-tone service after like like a few minutes, you know
Cuz now I when I make a call it like takes so long to dial now because you only get sir
You know, they give you touch-tone service for so many calls a month now, you know, you don't get wait
Hold on a sec. Who's cutting off touch-tone service?
I'm sure I sprint a piece of
T-mobile if you like a certain amount of minutes, you know, they give you a pulse dialing
It's that's not right. Hold on us on your cell phone. You're getting pulse dialing
Some kind of a joke you get
Yeah, you gotta pay per month, you know, if you want to call them about the fix it
Oh, you can get you know for next to $10, you know, you can get to you know, post I
You're making fun of us aren't you yeah, there's no such thing as pulse dialing on a goddamn cell phone
I'm sorry, and why we have
288 connections on a
Heather and I don't know but it's not related to this because it's data is a different part of the baseband
You know it or maybe it's the same
How are you expected to make a rotary phone call on a cell phone? That doesn't have a rotary dial
Yeah, I think about that
Let's see
When I hand it, oh, let's demonstrate 1 800 million. Oh, yeah. No. No no more demonstrations. Oh my god. I think
We've revoked your
permissions
Yes
Rebel one final thing from you and then we're gonna move on. Okay next more next month. Okay, let's see
Well next week I'll be here. But next I'm going to Russia in Russia again. Are you coming back? Wait, you went to Russia
in the middle of the war last year and
Got away with that now you're going back
I'm going to be a st. Petersburg. Well, that's Russia. So yeah, you're going back
Beautiful city, but boy, you know, I don't know. I don't know if it's a good idea
But I said that last time he didn't listen. So what can I do?
Well, I had a great time last time. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
Now if you had a great time once you know, you're gonna have a great time every time so I can't argue with that kind
of logic
So when when do you go?
June 1st for like like maybe 10 days. Let's hope it's 10 days
Go to Finland. Yeah, if you're gonna go to st. Petersburg, you know, I could go through Finland
Well, yeah, you know you can't get they're not doing the ferry thing. Otherwise, I would what's very what's my Estonia. Oh
Yeah, I don't know what you have all the way to Estonia and all this way I
Don't know where the ferry is. The only ferry I know of is between Estonia
There used to be a ferry from St. Petersburg. No, why would there be a ferry? It's a land route
You can take a train I'm sorry what you can take a train from Helsinki to st. Petersburg
It gets a little contentious at the border. But once you get past that everything's fine
They might not they they might have they might have canceled that because everyone's angry but
Yeah, I don't know the ferry that goes between the two cities that that would be
But Finland this is a great place to visit
Yeah, I'd like to go visit that maybe next year. I'd like to go visit Ireland and Sweden not Sweden Switzerland and
in Italy and
Yeah, just do it in the right order because otherwise you're bouncing all over all over Europe well, yeah
That's that's what I go to Ireland first, but that's closer and I go to you know, England and then to like Switzerland and then
Italy
So to both freedom is give you the same recording, you know, we're like 1800 like my a and I is
You know, it gives you the same because I forgot to I forgot what it is. You want to hold an alum
Someone else answer him he's not he's not no we're not playing this game anymore
But I think you find out your a and I wait a minute
But we're gonna keep ours to ourselves
Wait, let me see glad you're having fun with us though. Yes
800
All right, then so it's been good hearing from you rebel we're gonna move on thank you for your call and please won't you call back
again
All right, have a good night I
Had this
This exchange while that was going on I was multitasking I was doing some other things I specifically asked barred
if they would
Basically promise not to replace a striking Hollywood worker or a writer rather
It's quite intriguing I am a large language model also known as a conversational AI or chat bot
Trained to be informative and comprehensive
I am trained on a massive amount of text data and I'm able to communicate and generate
Human-like text in response to a wide range of prompts and questions
For example, I can provide summaries of factual topics or create stories. I
Do not have the ability to replace a striking Hollywood writer or writer
I do not have the ability to replace a striking Hollywood writer
I am NOT a writer and I do not have the skills or experience necessary to create high-quality content
I am also not affiliated with any Hollywood studios or production companies
So I would not be able to offer any work to striking writers
Not exactly what I asked, but okay. I support the striking Hollywood writers and
I hope that they are able to reach a fair agreement with the studios
I believe that the writers are essential to the creation of high-quality content and they deserve to be compensated fairly for their work
Kind of surprised to hear Bard saying that about striking Hollywood workers
But Bard seems to be up-to-date on on the strike or maybe that's just a canned phrase that Barb will always say about
About the striking striking writers more striking anybody
Well, it's also it's also a matter of just it found that text somewhere out there
It seems like text that would fit in a response to this particular query
But Bard being a large language model is a computer program. It does not support anything. It does not believe anything
It doesn't get pissed off. It doesn't you know fall in love. It just runs programs and
so
Even even reading a response like that. It's it's it's
Playing it more humanity than is actually going on
Yeah, and I think the the conversation we had earlier with rebel it kind of got me thinking about this too
It's like it's about how people are using it and who exactly is using it
So you're using it and it's responding that way because you've prompted it someone else could prompt it and get something
entirely different for an entirely different end
based on a
wholly different
Subject matter and Bard isn't going to take a stance or it be in solidarity in any way
and the scenario that rebel brought up got me
intrigued because
we might individually be warned by Google or
Chat GPT that they're different projects
different degrees of willingness and capability to
Have certain conversations or divulge certain things and the the idea that was raised about
customer service and companies
Hooking quote hooking this up. Now. There's no evidence. We don't have a story about that necessarily
but
Like I mentioned earlier the ability to add this to things that are already like IV our systems or home assistance stuff
We talked to is not
Totally like out of the realm of possibility at this point, it's kind of just sort of waiting to be
snapped in so to speak
so my point
companies that implement this they want to
Cut costs there. They're there impetus is mostly out of an organizational
Need an ability to
you know have customer retention and basically
Maximize the human resources they do have
As they scale up and and you know provide a good or service on mass and they'll use this if it is
integrated someday into customer service
They'll use this with with
You know their goals in mind not necessarily the same goals when you're signing the agreement using it personally
So I'm kind of intrigued by that like third-party use like you're talking to it giving it
Personal info to pay your utility bill or do something
But how well are they containing it if their goal isn't the same as like when you agree?
Personally their goal is to use it in ways and you know
How much how much resources then if if their goals are being met how much how are they not?
Implementing things that actually like safety and security protocols and and even if they did say they were implementing it
how could they even guarantee it if it's being loaded up with account numbers and
personally identifiable information and so on and so forth, so
It just occurred to me in that conversation that how you use it and who's using it it whether but the info
becomes
Part of data sets a new and and retrains and as it refines it
Going forward so
it just seems like it's it's it may be easy for them to implement, but it's hard to use in a safe way and
just as examples is
One scenario imagine all the different companies and places that might be trying to save on
Human customer service or something like that and all of a sudden all these different ways you
You might ordinarily have a private conversation or instead being integrated into this large language
Network of neural network and so forth
We have no more calls, sorry, I just checked
Okay, well, that's fine with me because we're just about at the end of this hour. Is it? Yeah, we're
Any any closing thoughts from from people
I'm just
You know, keep your eyes open be aware of what's going on when you talk to a computer
You're not talking to a human. You're not talking to a mind
and
Use use things that are fun and stop doing them when they stop being fun
Yes, and don't expect anyone else to agree with you. I would say get spring projects together in addition to that. That's right
Hack some stuff, you know things you've been putting off. Mm-hmm get to it get to work. There's lots lots to do and
it'll keep you away from the
Artificial intelligence. I have an audio cassette. I have to fix so I'm looking forward to that project
Is that a spring project?
Absolutely. All right. Good get it together. I'm gonna do that. There are springs in one of those
Several. Yeah. Yeah
Yeah, so all sorts of other things we're back next week with another edition of off the hook at 7 p.m
And over time at 8 p.m. And
Again, you can write to us OTH at 2600 comm with your your thoughts
criticisms suggestions whatnot
We always enjoy hearing from our listeners
Good night, everyone