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[00:05.820 --> 00:09.180]  Now, stay tuned for Off the Hook.
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[00:52.090 --> 00:56.530]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:57.450 --> 01:02.070]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[01:02.670 --> 01:04.830]  We couldn't get much worse,
[01:08.700 --> 01:10.300]  best expect the worst.
[01:10.940 --> 01:13.640]  I hope that's understood one bit more.
[02:41.990 --> 02:42.630]  Wow.
[02:48.400 --> 02:50.180]  It's finally good to be home.
[02:54.850 --> 02:57.910]  Well, first of all, I want to thank everyone for showing up for my talk.
[02:57.910 --> 03:00.350]  It's great to be back home again.
[03:01.070 --> 03:05.810]  And I want to thank everyone for all their support they've given me over the years.
[03:06.290 --> 03:09.250]  And today, my talk is going to be a little bit different.
[03:09.250 --> 03:12.730]  I usually talk for companies and conventions and stuff like that.
[03:12.790 --> 03:21.190]  But I'm going to talk about me and the stuff that I've been through and where I'm going and some entertaining stories I think everyone will relate to and enjoy.
[03:22.770 --> 03:26.730]  And I guess I am the only first hacker to bring my mom and grandmother to a conference.
[03:26.730 --> 03:31.670]  And so, it's kind of interesting.
[03:32.310 --> 03:33.730]  Anyway, I think I was born...
[03:34.730 --> 03:39.430]  Oh, by the way, my talk is going to last for about probably an hour, 15 minutes to an hour and a half.
[03:39.530 --> 03:41.070]  And I'm going to have a 30-minute Q&A.
[03:41.190 --> 03:43.870]  Just so everyone's aware of the time constraints here.
[03:44.610 --> 03:51.190]  I think I was born as a hacker because at 10 years old, I was fascinated with magic.
[03:51.190 --> 03:52.070]  I love illusions.
[03:52.430 --> 03:59.130]  And I would hang out at the corner magic store for hours and hours just to find out the secret to a magic trick.
[03:59.750 --> 04:03.430]  I always wanted a bite of the forbidden fruit, the forbidden apple.
[04:03.730 --> 04:08.530]  And I always was in pursuit of information that should be secret, but for entertainment.
[04:08.790 --> 04:09.690]  I loved doing illusions.
[04:09.690 --> 04:12.630]  I loved pulling pranks on friends and family.
[04:14.290 --> 04:19.350]  So about two years later, the first system I hacked wasn't a computer.
[04:19.670 --> 04:20.950]  It wasn't a telephone.
[04:21.470 --> 04:24.070]  But it was the Los Angeles RTD.
[04:24.390 --> 04:25.370]  You know what RTD is?
[04:25.570 --> 04:27.330]  The Rapid Transit District.
[04:28.010 --> 04:31.010]  So as a young kid, my hobby was riding buses.
[04:31.410 --> 04:35.590]  I used to ride buses around all the way through Los Angeles and San Bernardino.
[04:35.990 --> 04:39.310]  My mom worked long hours as a single mother supporting me.
[04:39.410 --> 04:41.390]  So Kevin had to find something entertaining to do.
[04:42.450 --> 04:44.770]  So one day I'm sitting at the back of the bus.
[04:45.710 --> 04:47.250]  And I'm looking at the transfer.
[04:47.410 --> 04:50.770]  You know how you could pay a certain fee and you can buy a transfer to transfer on a different line?
[04:51.190 --> 04:54.590]  I'm looking at it and it has a special punch.
[04:54.590 --> 04:56.670]  And it's punched with the date and the direction you're going.
[04:57.250 --> 04:59.550]  And you could use this as a ticket to go on the next bus.
[05:00.150 --> 05:05.050]  So I'm thinking to myself, about 11, 11 and a half years old, this is kind of interesting.
[05:05.930 --> 05:09.210]  So I go up to the bus driver as I'm about to get off the bus.
[05:09.290 --> 05:12.490]  And I go, hey, sir, where do you get these punches?
[05:12.630 --> 05:14.470]  I'm doing a special project for school.
[05:15.430 --> 05:17.050]  And I like the kind of shapes these are.
[05:17.110 --> 05:18.130]  These are really cool shapes.
[05:18.230 --> 05:19.470]  Where can I buy one of these punches?
[05:20.870 --> 05:24.050]  And he told me the name of the store in downtown Los Angeles.
[05:24.330 --> 05:24.670]  I get that.
[05:24.730 --> 05:26.070]  It's the first time I did social engineering.
[05:26.350 --> 05:26.970]  11 years old.
[05:28.170 --> 05:31.890]  So I go to the store in downtown LA and I buy myself a nice shiny punch.
[05:32.250 --> 05:33.570]  And I go, wow, this is cool.
[05:33.590 --> 05:34.790]  I can punch my own transfers.
[05:35.970 --> 05:37.750]  Problem was, is I didn't have any transfers.
[05:39.090 --> 05:44.230]  So I was thinking, my grandmother lived about two miles away from the RTD bus depot.
[05:44.450 --> 05:46.990]  And I was thinking, you know, human nature, people are lazy.
[05:47.310 --> 05:53.290]  So I think these bus drivers, probably after a long day of riding that bus, they take these transfers they haven't used and they just throw it in the trash.
[05:54.550 --> 05:57.190]  So Kevin, at 11 and a half, became a dumpster diver.
[05:58.810 --> 06:02.370]  And I went into the RTD trash and fished out all these blank transfers.
[06:02.730 --> 06:05.170]  And I used to punch my own transfers and ride the bus system.
[06:06.030 --> 06:11.290]  Bus drivers knew what I was doing because they'd see me boarding the bus and I'd have the outline of the punch, right?
[06:12.830 --> 06:17.390]  And I'd be so bold sometimes to punch another transfer on the bus for somebody else.
[06:19.450 --> 06:22.610]  And the driver thought it was cute, right?
[06:23.970 --> 06:25.130]  Everyone thought it was cute.
[06:25.490 --> 06:27.890]  No one told me I was defrauding RTD, right?
[06:29.850 --> 06:37.450]  And I guess I have a little bit of a photographic memory because I actually ended up memorizing the entire schedule for every bus in Los Angeles County.
[06:37.450 --> 06:43.650]  So if I knew I had to go from point A to point B, I knew what time to be at what place without referencing any type of schedule.
[06:44.630 --> 06:46.070]  So that was kind of interesting.
[06:47.490 --> 06:50.670]  One day I was riding the bus and I met this other guy who was a ham radio operator.
[06:51.350 --> 06:56.230]  And this bus driver says, Hey, kid, I found this radio on the back of a bus.
[06:56.290 --> 06:56.730]  Do you know what it is?
[06:56.810 --> 07:00.270]  And he held up an HT, Motorola HT.
[07:00.330 --> 07:01.970]  And I go, Oh, that's a police radio, I'm thinking.
[07:02.130 --> 07:02.610]  Well, that's cool.
[07:02.650 --> 07:03.610]  I'd like to listen to police.
[07:05.350 --> 07:07.110]  And he goes, No, this is a ham radio.
[07:07.210 --> 07:10.650]  So he introduced me to the hobby of amateur radio.
[07:11.670 --> 07:16.670]  And I was so intrigued, not with the radio, but of the auto-patch capability.
[07:16.670 --> 07:18.430]  That's making phone calls over radio.
[07:18.510 --> 07:19.830]  I thought the auto-patch was cool.
[07:20.050 --> 07:21.810]  I could have this little HT handheld.
[07:22.010 --> 07:23.370]  This was like 20 years ago.
[07:23.510 --> 07:25.130]  And I could dial any phone number.
[07:25.470 --> 07:27.850]  And I thought that was, Wow, I want to be able to do that.
[07:28.270 --> 07:28.490]  Right?
[07:29.870 --> 07:32.310]  So, I won't go into my auto-patch stories.
[07:32.450 --> 07:33.590]  That will be for the next talk.
[07:33.910 --> 07:43.070]  But the most fun I had with a radio, before I get into phones and computers, was the drive-up windows at McDonald's.
[07:44.630 --> 07:51.990]  Because you can clip a wire in certain radios, like the Alenco radio, and you can go out of band and transmit on any frequency.
[07:52.410 --> 07:54.210]  So we used to have fun at McDonald's.
[07:54.370 --> 07:57.050]  So the customer would drive up to the drive-up window.
[07:57.050 --> 08:00.770]  And we now become the McDonald's employee, because we have more power.
[08:01.830 --> 08:02.670]  Can I take your order, sir?
[08:03.270 --> 08:05.070]  Yes, I'd like a Big Mac, Large Fry, Large Coke.
[08:05.430 --> 08:06.090]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[08:06.210 --> 08:07.430]  We have changed our menu.
[08:07.530 --> 08:09.870]  And now we offer Super Taco, burritos.
[08:10.450 --> 08:12.570]  And we don't offer any sodas anymore.
[08:12.590 --> 08:13.290]  It's only juices.
[08:13.590 --> 08:15.110]  We drive customers crazy.
[08:15.330 --> 08:17.010]  Even to the point...
[08:17.010 --> 08:18.650]  And don't forget, we're young at this time, right?
[08:18.690 --> 08:19.410]  So we're a little bit crazy.
[08:19.650 --> 08:26.730]  We actually, with a micro-casset tape recorder, record ourselves, like one of us recorded ourselves, urinating in the toilet.
[08:26.730 --> 08:27.770]  So you have the sound on tape.
[08:29.430 --> 08:30.190]  Driver comes up.
[08:31.010 --> 08:31.830]  Yes, sir, may I help you?
[08:32.190 --> 08:34.470]  Yes, I'd like to get a Big Mac and a Large Soda.
[08:34.670 --> 08:37.130]  Well, sir, we only have apple juice today.
[08:37.430 --> 08:38.570]  And our ice machine's broken.
[08:39.370 --> 08:41.630]  But we can get you a Large Apple Juice, and it's on the house.
[08:41.770 --> 08:42.170]  Would you like that?
[08:42.250 --> 08:42.770]  Oh, yes, sir.
[08:42.850 --> 08:43.030]  Okay.
[08:43.390 --> 08:43.770]  Well, hold on.
[08:43.990 --> 08:45.770]  Is that small, medium, or large?
[08:45.850 --> 08:47.250]  And we play the tape, right?
[08:49.810 --> 08:53.670]  We drove one McDonald's so crazy that the manager came out.
[08:53.670 --> 08:56.230]  We're like a block away doing this, right?
[08:56.670 --> 08:57.590]  Manager comes out.
[08:57.790 --> 08:59.230]  He's looking in the parking lot.
[08:59.430 --> 09:01.450]  He sees no one, right?
[09:01.790 --> 09:06.770]  And he's looking around, and he's scratching his head, and he walks up to the speaker, right?
[09:07.510 --> 09:10.550]  And he has his face on the speaker, and I go, What the F are you looking at?
[09:10.750 --> 09:11.350]  This guy's...
[09:13.410 --> 09:16.050]  This guy, drubbed back 30 feet.
[09:21.590 --> 09:23.050]  Don't tell the FCC on me.
[09:23.190 --> 09:24.010]  They already don't like me.
[09:26.850 --> 09:29.150]  So let's fast forward a little bit to high school.
[09:29.150 --> 09:44.790]  From the archives of the HOPE Conference, July 9th, 2004, Kevin Mitnick, in his first appearance at a Hacker Conference, giving a talk about what it was all about all those years.
[09:45.950 --> 09:51.590]  We lost Kevin on July 16th of this year to pancreatic cancer.
[09:52.610 --> 09:56.890]  And it's been a real shock to so many people around the world.
[09:58.250 --> 10:01.350]  And we're going to be talking about about Kevin tonight.
[10:01.530 --> 10:02.530]  We're going to be remembering Kevin.
[10:03.590 --> 10:12.170]  And for over time, following the show on YouTube, you'll have the opportunity to call in if you have any memories or thoughts that you'd like to share as well.
[10:12.430 --> 10:13.390]  I want to welcome everybody.
[10:13.390 --> 10:14.170]  This is Manuel.
[10:14.710 --> 10:15.370]  Kyle's here.
[10:15.950 --> 10:16.510]  Yeah, I'm right here.
[10:16.970 --> 10:17.570]  We have Rob T.
[10:17.690 --> 10:18.090]  Firefly.
[10:18.790 --> 10:19.530]  Good evening.
[10:19.790 --> 10:20.550]  And Alex.
[10:21.310 --> 10:22.330]  Good evening, everyone.
[10:23.410 --> 10:35.950]  Yeah, that news, although somewhat expected, was still extremely shocking, surprising, dismaying.
[10:36.270 --> 10:40.570]  And I think everybody in the community has felt that.
[10:42.710 --> 10:43.510]  Absolutely.
[10:44.010 --> 10:45.830]  The loss of Kevin has...
[10:45.830 --> 10:51.130]  it's reverberated throughout the community since word of it started getting out.
[10:51.130 --> 11:01.890]  And we have seen such a swell of support and fond memories and everything on various social media, on Twitter, on Mastodon, on Lemmy.
[11:03.170 --> 11:05.350]  And it's just been...
[11:05.350 --> 11:13.390]  like, there are so many in our community who knew of Kevin as sort of this cause to rally around in the old days.
[11:14.490 --> 11:18.470]  You know, the whole Free Kevin movement and everything else.
[11:18.730 --> 11:26.810]  But there are also those in our community who have had the chance to see him speak, to speak with him, to meet him, to work with him.
[11:27.450 --> 11:30.530]  And it was always a joy.
[11:30.670 --> 11:39.170]  He was a great guy to be around, above and beyond the significance that his life had to the hacker community.
[11:39.170 --> 11:42.890]  He was just a totally decent dude.
[11:43.210 --> 11:46.290]  And he's going to be very missed by very many.
[11:47.930 --> 11:48.590]  Absolutely.
[11:49.030 --> 11:50.130]  Alex, did you have something?
[11:51.250 --> 11:51.870]  Yeah.
[11:52.250 --> 11:53.110]  I mean, I...
[11:53.850 --> 12:00.510]  I have, I guess, so many different memories and thoughts about Kevin Mitnick.
[12:00.610 --> 12:08.630]  Because when I first came into contact with the name Kevin Mitnick, he was already a legend, I think.
[12:08.630 --> 12:11.250]  And it was probably around 1994.
[12:12.470 --> 12:17.710]  And I remember the first Hope Conference, right, when he was a wanted man.
[12:17.870 --> 12:18.150]  Mm-hmm.
[12:18.510 --> 12:24.050]  And one of the greatest things, I guess, I guess, I hope people still have these, too.
[12:24.290 --> 12:25.530]  But I don't know.
[12:25.650 --> 12:28.170]  I don't know if you did this, Emmanuel, or whoever did it.
[12:28.210 --> 12:28.950]  It was brilliant.
[12:29.210 --> 12:32.250]  But they made these face masks of Kevin Mitnick.
[12:32.330 --> 12:32.590]  Oh, yeah.
[12:32.630 --> 12:33.070]  I remember those.
[12:33.470 --> 12:38.130]  And everybody was, you know, walking around the conference with a face mask of Kevin Mitnick on it.
[12:38.130 --> 12:42.070]  And I remember thinking, wow, that is so cool, right?
[12:43.090 --> 12:46.770]  But the reason behind that was because he was on the run.
[12:47.470 --> 12:49.750]  I was talking to him pretty regularly at that point.
[12:50.030 --> 12:51.130]  Didn't know where he was.
[12:51.650 --> 12:53.230]  And the feds were looking for him.
[12:53.350 --> 12:58.490]  And, of course, they were looking for him at the very first massive hacker conference, which was the HOPE conference.
[12:58.630 --> 13:00.770]  Over a thousand hackers gathered in one place.
[13:00.870 --> 13:01.570]  That never happened before.
[13:02.830 --> 13:04.490]  And you knew they were looking for Kevin.
[13:04.630 --> 13:08.790]  So what better way to mess with their heads for everybody to wear a Kevin Mitnick mask?
[13:09.670 --> 13:10.970]  It was pretty funny.
[13:11.150 --> 13:17.610]  And then I think my first actual interaction with him was when he was a wanted man.
[13:17.610 --> 13:18.450]  He was on the run.
[13:20.210 --> 13:25.950]  And you would pass me into like a conference call or something where he was on the line.
[13:26.370 --> 13:27.830]  I don't know if you even remember this.
[13:28.010 --> 13:29.070]  I shouldn't have done that.
[13:29.410 --> 13:30.570]  You probably shouldn't.
[13:30.690 --> 13:34.590]  You were probably underage at the time and I was corrupting your mind with...
[13:34.590 --> 13:35.030]  No doubt.
[13:35.210 --> 13:36.210]  And look what became of you.
[13:36.270 --> 13:37.190]  You became a lawyer.
[13:38.290 --> 13:39.230]  Yeah, nobody...
[13:39.230 --> 13:40.110]  Let me tell you.
[13:40.830 --> 13:42.710]  Yeah, that's what happens.
[13:43.230 --> 13:47.050]  But I remember thinking like, oh my God, that was just so cool.
[13:47.050 --> 13:48.310]  You know, like...
[13:48.310 --> 13:50.470]  You know, I said hello to Kevin Mitnick once.
[13:50.870 --> 13:52.130]  You know, when I was...
[13:52.130 --> 13:52.730]  When he was on the run.
[13:52.810 --> 13:58.810]  It was a very neat experience for somebody like, you know, 15, 16 years old.
[13:59.170 --> 14:02.530]  And then, of course, you know, he was caught.
[14:02.910 --> 14:13.470]  I don't want to jump ahead in the story, but he was caught and sentenced and spent time and I guess it was federal president, I believe, right?
[14:13.730 --> 14:14.930]  Can I say one thing?
[14:15.010 --> 14:18.670]  You said caught and sentenced as if those two things happened anywhere near each other.
[14:18.870 --> 14:21.690]  It was years before he was sentenced after he was caught.
[14:22.310 --> 14:22.410]  Yeah.
[14:22.710 --> 14:23.990]  It was a long time.
[14:25.810 --> 14:26.330]  And...
[14:26.330 --> 14:31.570]  But during that time, the Free Kevin movement was, you know, really extraordinary.
[14:31.950 --> 14:33.870]  And it was another thing that you did, Manuel.
[14:34.310 --> 14:47.070]  And I think that the image of the yellow bumper sticker, kind of yellowish-orange bumper sticker with the black lettering of Free Kevin on it, is still iconic to this day.
[14:47.850 --> 14:48.330]  Yeah.
[14:48.530 --> 14:48.670]  Yeah.
[14:48.730 --> 14:53.290]  I remember conversations we had while we were starting that.
[14:53.430 --> 15:08.250]  I had some involvement in activism in the past and it was my feeling that, no, nobody's going to know who's Kevin was when you say Free Kevin because the argument was, okay, we have to put a website there so people can, or explain what the case is.
[15:08.530 --> 15:10.150]  You can't do that on a bumper sticker.
[15:10.150 --> 15:16.270]  Basically, what you want to do is just get that phrase out so people start asking who's Kevin.
[15:16.510 --> 15:17.450]  And that's what happened.
[15:17.530 --> 15:21.050]  People started asking who Kevin was and Free Kevin became kind of a mantra.
[15:21.450 --> 15:24.110]  There were some black bumper stickers too that had the website.
[15:24.690 --> 15:30.690]  In fact, he's holding one of those in one of our covers of 2600, I believe in 95.
[15:32.070 --> 15:49.170]  And it was just a really weird time because all these people around the world started getting involved because they identified with somebody who was basically being demonized the way Kevin was being demonized and blamed for everything that went wrong with technology,
[15:49.510 --> 15:51.010]  with telephones, with computers.
[15:52.030 --> 16:05.530]  And basically, you could see why he was running for so long because the way they treated him afterwards, after he was actually caught in 1995, they put him in solitary confinement.
[16:05.530 --> 16:09.550]  They basically did not sentence him for years.
[16:09.890 --> 16:12.110]  He eventually got out in 2000.
[16:12.970 --> 16:20.510]  But what we were trying to find out when we were making our documentary, Freedom Downtime, was what is it that he did?
[16:20.650 --> 16:22.250]  What are you alleging that he did?
[16:22.350 --> 16:24.610]  And that was the question we kept asking so many people.
[16:25.450 --> 16:27.210]  And we never got a straight answer.
[16:27.410 --> 16:31.470]  We just got people saying this is what he could have done.
[16:31.790 --> 16:33.050]  This is the potential.
[16:33.230 --> 16:34.210]  This is why he's dangerous.
[16:34.210 --> 16:41.850]  And it's kind of a microcosm of how hackers are treated as a community, as people, as the threat.
[16:42.010 --> 16:53.750]  You still read it to this day in news stories about some horrible security snafu where everybody's private information is suddenly exposed.
[16:54.050 --> 16:59.110]  But the story always goes, a hacker could have done this or a hacker could get access to it.
[16:59.270 --> 17:01.950]  Never mind hackers, anybody could get access to it.
[17:02.090 --> 17:04.970]  The worst criminals in the world, the worst terrorists in the world.
[17:05.050 --> 17:08.350]  Hackers are likely the ones that will discover it and patch the holes.
[17:08.730 --> 17:13.490]  And that was the point that I think all of us were trying to make at that period in time.
[17:13.910 --> 17:23.650]  And Kevin, he really, you know, victim that he was of this ignorance, of this hostility towards intelligent people.
[17:24.170 --> 17:25.810]  He got that message.
[17:26.130 --> 17:34.330]  He knew that there was a bigger battle going on and he really, he was so strong.
[17:34.490 --> 17:37.110]  You know, he had so much taken from him.
[17:37.710 --> 17:48.730]  He lost so much of his life behind the walls when he really should have been out there sharing his knowledge, sharing his skills, which eventually he was able to do.
[17:49.070 --> 17:53.230]  And I was so happy to see him able to prosper like that.
[17:53.310 --> 17:57.390]  But just, it made me angry because of all the years that he wasn't allowed to do that.
[17:57.850 --> 18:07.510]  And I only hope that through his, you know, the tragedy that he lived through, maybe others were spared.
[18:08.150 --> 18:12.630]  Maybe some prosecutor somewhere said, this is not the right way to go.
[18:12.730 --> 18:13.130]  I don't know.
[18:13.450 --> 18:15.930]  You would probably know better than me, Alex, if that's even possible.
[18:16.070 --> 18:22.850]  But he definitely was not as angry as I would have been having gone through all that.
[18:23.070 --> 18:29.190]  I mean, perhaps inside he was, but he was so gracious so sharing, so giving.
[18:30.110 --> 18:33.090]  And I think that's how we'll always remember Kevin.
[18:35.510 --> 18:37.610]  Yeah, I tend to agree.
[18:37.850 --> 18:39.290]  He was a great guy.
[18:39.690 --> 18:44.550]  I remember one night when we all hung out.
[18:44.830 --> 18:47.910]  I think it was at Juniors or something, right?
[18:47.910 --> 18:50.210]  Didn't we go out for cheesecake or something like that?
[18:50.950 --> 18:52.850]  That would have been the right thing to do.
[18:53.930 --> 18:55.210]  I'm sure we did.
[18:55.730 --> 18:57.670]  Yeah, I think it was that.
[18:57.790 --> 19:03.870]  I think it was Juniors and it was really the first time that I had hung out with him as a person.
[19:03.990 --> 19:05.670]  I remember thinking, what a great guy.
[19:05.830 --> 19:07.270]  He's just a good dude.
[19:08.130 --> 19:11.530]  And he became also kind of famous for his business cards.
[19:11.690 --> 19:13.550]  Do you remember the business cards that he used to hand out?
[19:13.810 --> 19:14.430]  Oh my God.
[19:14.510 --> 19:16.110]  Rob is holding one up right now.
[19:17.050 --> 19:18.770]  Rob, describe that business card to us.
[19:19.330 --> 19:24.050]  Okay, first for the listeners, I'll flick it with my finger and you can hear this.
[19:25.510 --> 19:26.470]  Don't hurt yourself.
[19:27.730 --> 19:30.050]  This is a metal business card.
[19:30.230 --> 19:42.250]  But not only is it a metal business card, it is a set of lockpicks basically that you could pop out of the frame here and you have a set of lockpicks.
[19:42.670 --> 19:44.370]  And it's also his real business card.
[19:44.510 --> 19:50.130]  It's got his name, address, contact info, and everything for Mitnick security consulting.
[19:50.710 --> 19:54.750]  And these became sort of coveted in the hacker scene.
[19:55.130 --> 19:57.930]  You can find pictures of these online if you look around.
[19:58.710 --> 20:07.710]  And yeah, they were great and it's just one example of the spirit he had and the sense of fun around the things he did.
[20:10.250 --> 20:17.430]  Yeah, I've been taking a lot of this time to reflect a little bit and those were some of the mementos.
[20:17.690 --> 20:43.110]  He was always handing them out and I just remember learning about his story through things like Freedom Downtime and really growing around some of the real life stories that hacking and the news and, you know, that were going on in real life because I think a lot of that prior to that,
[20:43.110 --> 21:05.290]  I mean, with the fictional movie hackers, a lot of the way the media was sensationalizing and kind of remystifying this whole identity as a young person realizing that, okay, actually there are people that get accused of this kind of stuff, they get labeled this way,
[21:05.450 --> 21:08.690]  and they actually suffer real consequences.
[21:08.690 --> 21:30.810]  and then sort of watching the documentary and realizing, wow, this isn't anything like what you would see in the movies or what the media wants you to think of these, this sort of scary character, caricature of what we come to understand as hacking, which is people that are really passionate,
[21:30.970 --> 21:45.730]  people that evangelize and share about what they know and yearn with fierce curiosity to understand how things work, whether it's a magic trick or whatever other system they're facing.
[21:46.030 --> 22:00.450]  So it's been just great to hear other people's stories about Kevin and how they've sort of come to know him and what kind of impact it's had on their trajectory and what they've been doing.
[22:00.830 --> 22:05.590]  And I think, yeah, this story is going to live on in so many ways.
[22:05.770 --> 22:20.510]  And it's just been a bit jarring and it makes you kind of also get a little deep and stuff about health and looking in on others and making sure that you do your best out there.
[22:21.090 --> 22:46.570]  But yeah, he bore so much pain, I think, through incarceration and standing up, I think, just for himself and putting even his own skill and acumen when he was on the run to his own self preservation, knowing he was right deep down that this was being totally blown out of proportion,
[22:48.110 --> 22:50.350]  the survival instinct there.
[22:50.490 --> 23:11.430]  I mean, it's emblematic, I think, of what a lot of hackers feel deep down when they're feeling confronted and threatened by different systems or just by merely knowing something and then trying to get a story out.
[23:11.850 --> 23:13.810]  It can be a real battle.
[23:14.950 --> 23:29.990]  Now, because it has been a couple of decades since that part of Kevin's story and the whole Free Kevin movement, I think it's safe to say that not everyone out there listening and not everyone in our community knows what it was all about anymore.
[23:30.670 --> 23:40.030]  But I think, Emmanuel, you can claim a great deal of the credit for publicizing that, for first getting that out there and getting the movement going.
[23:40.350 --> 23:44.530]  I wonder if you could speak a little bit about what that was like for you at the beginning.
[23:45.170 --> 23:48.370]  Well, I mean, I don't think I get the credit for it.
[23:48.430 --> 23:50.790]  I think the credit goes to all the people who responded.
[23:51.290 --> 23:53.350]  Because, you know, we talk about a lot of things.
[23:53.570 --> 23:56.750]  We're always talking about some cause or some injustice.
[23:57.670 --> 24:02.710]  But if people don't respond to it, then it remains an injustice.
[24:02.910 --> 24:09.270]  And I think it's the reason that this basically, that Kevin's life changed.
[24:09.270 --> 24:18.750]  It's because of our communities, because people responded and stood up and literally demonstrated in streets all around the world.
[24:19.070 --> 24:20.830]  You know, in Moscow, there were demonstrations.
[24:21.250 --> 24:22.950]  In Los Angeles, there were demonstrations.
[24:23.170 --> 24:25.250]  Chicago, everywhere, there were demonstrations.
[24:25.250 --> 24:27.330]  It was incredible to see that.
[24:28.770 --> 24:37.110]  And we were just able to use technology, use various skills, make a film, get on the radio.
[24:37.690 --> 24:40.850]  WBAI is massively responsible for helping to get the word out.
[24:43.570 --> 24:48.570]  And I don't know, it just, there were many stories of injustice at the time.
[24:48.730 --> 24:50.070]  There was fiber optic, there was Bernie S.
[24:51.530 --> 24:55.670]  There seemed to be a lot of things going on in the mid-90s for some reason.
[24:55.670 --> 24:57.530]  And of course, there still are today.
[24:57.530 --> 25:01.130]  There's all kinds of other injustices, and some of them are much, much worse.
[25:03.690 --> 25:06.530]  But I just think the stars aligned.
[25:06.830 --> 25:08.510]  I think that's really what it was.
[25:09.150 --> 25:10.470]  We had a magazine.
[25:11.650 --> 25:22.890]  We had the desire and ability to tell a story and actually interview people and go across the country and try and document this story.
[25:24.040 --> 25:31.790]  And of course, there was the movie that was coming out that we were protesting, Takedown.
[25:32.150 --> 25:32.890]  Do you remember that?
[25:32.990 --> 25:52.970]  That was basically what had happened was Hollywood had decided to make a movie about Kevin's life without consulting Kevin to the degree where he was still sitting in jail, in prison, not even being sentenced.
[25:53.630 --> 25:56.010]  No idea what the future was going to be.
[25:56.230 --> 26:01.490]  I can't describe, I can't imagine the kind of hell that is, but he was living it.
[26:01.970 --> 26:08.110]  And that was a problem for the screenwriters as well, you know, because how do you tell the story if there's no sentence?
[26:08.490 --> 26:11.210]  So they basically, they made him guilty.
[26:11.450 --> 26:17.010]  They said, okay, he was found guilty in a trial that never happened and he was sentenced.
[26:17.010 --> 26:18.390]  So they just kind of made that up.
[26:18.470 --> 26:20.690]  And we thought that was rather unfair.
[26:21.190 --> 26:25.370]  And that was, I think, the final motivating factor.
[26:25.550 --> 26:33.450]  So, you know, I got to give those people, those people who wrote that horrible screenplay and made that horrible movie, which eventually came out.
[26:33.570 --> 26:35.590]  It didn't come out in this country for a number of years.
[26:35.970 --> 26:38.710]  It did come out and was widely panned.
[26:38.970 --> 26:40.510]  And that's a nice word for it.
[26:41.970 --> 26:48.310]  Had it not been for that terrible action of theirs, maybe we wouldn't have been so angry.
[26:48.590 --> 26:59.490]  We would have been angry, but not as angry as that because, boy, you know, you're basically writing fiction about somebody's real life when they're sitting in prison.
[27:00.090 --> 27:01.730]  It just was so wrong.
[27:01.870 --> 27:10.090]  And somehow, somehow, and I'd like to think that we still have this ability, we were able to get copies of every single revision of the script.
[27:10.170 --> 27:12.450]  So every time they made a change, we found out about it.
[27:12.450 --> 27:14.490]  it drove them crazy.
[27:15.370 --> 27:22.090]  How were the hackers finding out about this film and the new scene that even the actors don't know about yet?
[27:23.230 --> 27:28.490]  It was really kind of crazy.
[27:29.190 --> 27:36.170]  What's funny is Takedown was being filmed in North Carolina because that's where a lot of Hollywood productions are filmed.
[27:36.430 --> 27:41.090]  And North Carolina happened to be the state that Kevin Mitnick had been caught in 1995.
[27:41.630 --> 27:43.410]  So there were all these parallels.
[27:43.690 --> 27:50.250]  We were able to go down there and talk to the people making the film and then take a drive and see Kevin's apartment where he had been caught.
[27:50.730 --> 27:55.710]  It was just all these weird coincidences that were happening.
[27:56.650 --> 28:00.970]  It felt like this is what we have to be doing at this point in time.
[28:00.970 --> 28:08.890]  And I hope that listeners and other people in the hacker community see themselves in a similar light.
[28:08.890 --> 28:14.650]  like they're in the right place at the right time and they are the right person to be doing something of significance.
[28:15.270 --> 28:21.990]  And even though other people will say it's not going to make any difference, it's a waste of time, you do it anyway.
[28:22.390 --> 28:26.030]  You do it anyway because it will make a difference.
[28:26.370 --> 28:28.530]  You might not even feel it immediately.
[28:28.770 --> 28:32.690]  It might take years, decades, maybe even past your lifetime.
[28:33.590 --> 28:35.210]  But I guarantee it's going to matter.
[28:35.430 --> 28:36.330]  It's going to mean something.
[28:36.330 --> 28:45.550]  And just being able to see Kevin come out of prison in January of 2000.
[28:45.750 --> 28:58.050]  And literally the day after he was released from prison, we were sued by the motion picture people for having the ECSS.
[28:58.330 --> 29:01.870]  It was like a TV show that went from one chapter to another.
[29:02.670 --> 29:06.030]  So yeah, the synchronicity was something to behold.
[29:07.750 --> 29:13.890]  Go ahead, You know, I want to go back to the protests for a moment.
[29:14.150 --> 29:21.010]  Do you remember, I guess it might have been 1997, 1998, when we had the protest in Manhattan?
[29:21.210 --> 29:22.270]  I remember very well.
[29:22.790 --> 29:40.870]  It was in front of the federal courts, so down in Pearl Street, where, by the way, I was in that building today, that's why listeners can't see me, but I'm wearing a suit because I was actually in federal court today, where, just about 25 years ago, I can't believe it was that long.
[29:40.970 --> 29:41.650]  Was it that long?
[29:42.010 --> 29:43.590]  It was longer, actually.
[29:43.790 --> 29:45.530]  Well, no, it was about 25 years ago.
[29:45.570 --> 29:47.010]  1998 was 25 years ago.
[29:47.330 --> 29:49.170]  My God, that's crazy.
[29:49.590 --> 30:01.450]  Anyhow, where we were 25 years ago, when I was in college, before I was a lawyer, and this was a really formative experience for me, because we all came together.
[30:01.450 --> 30:03.030]  We had pre-Kevin banners.
[30:03.230 --> 30:03.770]  We were over there.
[30:03.890 --> 30:06.670]  People didn't know what the hell we were talking about or what we were doing.
[30:06.850 --> 30:13.430]  And we had flyers that we were handing out about his case that people were actually reading.
[30:13.790 --> 30:16.570]  We were making people change their minds.
[30:16.870 --> 30:18.150]  They were on our side.
[30:18.850 --> 30:21.870]  But you remember, Emmanuel, the day was hot as hell.
[30:22.010 --> 30:23.870]  It was such a hot day, right?
[30:24.090 --> 30:26.130]  And we kept...
[30:26.130 --> 30:39.930]  And this was something I thought was really just kind of magical that happened while we were protesting that day was we kept going back and buying drinks from the same hot dog guy that was outside the federal courts.
[30:40.110 --> 30:40.530]  That's right, yes.
[30:41.030 --> 30:46.190]  And we befriended him in a sense.
[30:46.190 --> 30:50.250]  And he came to trust me for a little while with his cart.
[30:50.430 --> 30:55.730]  He actually asked me to watch over his hot dog cart because he had to run out for a few minutes.
[30:56.310 --> 30:59.490]  So I thought, okay, sure, I'll watch your cart.
[31:00.030 --> 31:02.890]  And I said, maybe, you know, give the guy a rest.
[31:03.050 --> 31:06.890]  He can go and use the bathroom, you know, whatever he has to do.
[31:07.090 --> 31:08.830]  But he was gone for a while.
[31:09.150 --> 31:17.790]  And remember, I was over there at the cart and the protest is going on and there's people coming up to me trying to buy hot dogs and things like that from me.
[31:17.850 --> 31:22.610]  And so now I'm just watching the cart, you know, and so many people started coming up to me.
[31:22.610 --> 31:29.810]  I wound up starting to sell them drinks so I could figure that out and then ultimately hot dog and then handed the guy money when he came back.
[31:30.090 --> 31:34.650]  I had said to him, I said, you know, where did you go?
[31:34.790 --> 31:37.990]  You were gone for like 20 minutes, a half an hour or something.
[31:39.010 --> 31:43.030]  And he said, well, I went to pray.
[31:43.570 --> 31:48.150]  You know, he said, you know, I thought you guys looked trustworthy and I could leave you with my cart.
[31:48.510 --> 31:52.750]  And so I took the opportunity that I don't usually have during the day and I went to pray.
[31:53.130 --> 31:56.690]  And I said, oh my God, that's extraordinary.
[31:56.690 --> 32:01.030]  Here we are, a whole bunch of hackers hanging out and protesting at the federal court.
[32:01.250 --> 32:03.910]  And this is the guy, and he trusted us.
[32:04.090 --> 32:06.030]  This guy trusted us with his livelihood.
[32:06.490 --> 32:09.230]  I thought it was, I thought there was something magical about that.
[32:09.410 --> 32:14.150]  And then we even got some pictures of him with Free Kevin stickers and it became from the archives.
[32:14.650 --> 32:17.010]  He's forever memorialized as well.
[32:17.090 --> 32:24.530]  But I think it's just emblematic of a lot of the magic that happened around these types of demonstrations, these protests, these things.
[32:24.730 --> 32:27.350]  And I think you're selling yourself short, Emanuel.
[32:27.570 --> 32:32.570]  I think you are in very large part responsible for energizing all this.
[32:32.730 --> 32:35.390]  Sure, we may have shown up, but you put it together.
[32:35.530 --> 32:40.770]  You were the organizer, and I think you taught us a hell of a lot about what it means to stand up for what you believe in.
[32:41.390 --> 32:42.830]  Well, I appreciate that.
[32:42.950 --> 32:43.210]  Thank you.
[32:43.350 --> 32:56.370]  And we have some listener response from Stanley, who says, I really was not sure where to properly mourn Kevin's passing, so I thought off the hook would be the appropriate place.
[32:56.870 --> 33:01.230]  I first started reading 2600 magazine when I was 10 years old in early 1993.
[33:02.030 --> 33:09.350]  Both the magazine and Kevin's hacks, social engineering, and later documentaries on his legal case really served as personal inspiration for years.
[33:09.570 --> 33:13.830]  By age 13, I was learning about telecommunications hardware and CPU architecture.
[33:14.130 --> 33:20.390]  I briefly interned at AOL Time Warner in the early 2000s even, but ultimately decided to work in another profession.
[33:20.610 --> 33:21.470]  Wise move, Stanley.
[33:22.350 --> 33:23.990]  This is such a sad day, Kevin.
[33:24.130 --> 33:27.430]  You will be missed, and you had a tremendous impact on so many lives.
[33:29.970 --> 33:31.110]  That's certainly true.
[33:31.370 --> 33:32.070]  That's certainly true.
[33:32.210 --> 33:33.550]  And this is from Jerry.
[33:34.410 --> 33:38.330]  Dear Off the Hook, my deepest condolences to you all for the death of your friend Kevin Mitnick.
[33:38.610 --> 33:43.730]  One of my most cherished Hope Conference memories was attending the screening of Freedom Downtime.
[33:44.830 --> 33:47.510]  From start to finish of the film, I was on the edge of my seat.
[33:48.610 --> 33:52.350]  Emanuel's narration was Pitch Perfect, and to this day, it remains one of my favorite documentaries.
[33:52.550 --> 33:54.030]  I don't know about Pitch Perfect, but thank you for that.
[33:54.110 --> 33:56.090]  That's very, very kind.
[33:56.670 --> 34:00.650]  The New York Times ran a very detailed obituary.
[34:00.810 --> 34:05.950]  In fact, they ran an obituary and said at the bottom they were going to run a more complete one.
[34:06.110 --> 34:07.630]  I didn't really believe them, but they did.
[34:07.750 --> 34:16.430]  They actually ran this three, four page obituary about Kevin's life with many, many details.
[34:16.430 --> 34:26.570]  The original mini-obituary, I guess you could call it, inspired our friend Greg Newby to write a piece to the New York Times.
[34:26.650 --> 34:31.130]  I like to read that piece since they didn't print that and you wouldn't hear it otherwise.
[34:31.990 --> 34:36.030]  Dear Times, I write in reference to your coverage of the death of Kevin Mitnick.
[34:37.330 --> 34:39.650]  The article indicates a complete obituary will follow.
[34:39.750 --> 34:43.950]  I strongly encourage the Times to cover its own role in the Kevin Mitnick story.
[34:43.950 --> 34:54.490]  To fail to do so would effectively ignore or whitewash how the Times, particularly its long-time journalist John Markoff, was involved in Kevin's eventual capture and incarceration.
[34:55.070 --> 35:09.010]  The story in a nutshell is that without the tenacity of John Markoff and the support of the Times editorial staff, Mitnick would have been far less likely to be subject to the extraordinary pursuit that led to his eventual incarceration.
[35:09.010 --> 35:22.110]  The hyperbolic news coverage of the Times, augmented by inflated statements of risk and damages by prosecutors and the businesses Mitnick targeted, elevated the manhunt far beyond what it otherwise would have been.
[35:22.490 --> 35:33.170]  The situation is addressed to some extent in the obituary, which seems to have been written by friends and colleagues, can be found on a website called DignityMemorial.com.
[35:33.650 --> 35:44.050]  It is more thoroughly addressed in Mitnick's 1996 book with Jonathan Littman, The Fugitive Game, the book about Mitnick, that is, The Fugitive Game.
[35:44.610 --> 35:48.610]  Compare this to the book Markoff wrote with Tsutomu Shimomura, A Takedown.
[35:49.410 --> 36:00.350]  In reading both books side by side with the Times coverage of the day, it is evident that Mitnick's exploits, though criminal, were neither malicious nor especially impactful.
[36:00.750 --> 36:09.430]  After Mitnick was captured, some of the main players in the prosecution or from the companies who were said to have damaged spoke out for leniency for Mitnick.
[36:09.590 --> 36:12.190]  The punishment did not fit the crime.
[36:13.010 --> 36:27.830]  The story of the Times' involvement is that it was the Times, not the prosecutor, who targeted companies or rather targeted companies or law enforcement that elevated Mitnick to the world's most dangerous hacker.
[36:27.990 --> 36:29.330]  In other words, the Times did that.
[36:29.510 --> 36:36.250]  A series of articles written by Markoff ensured the pursuit of Mitnick continued long after the main events in question.
[36:37.030 --> 36:48.110]  In the books and news coverage of Mitnick's capture on February 15th, 1995, including the Times article, we find that Shimomura and Markoff were actually part of the FBI's pursuit operation.
[36:48.290 --> 37:00.390]  In fact, if I could just step out of this for a second, I later found out that my phone conversations with Kevin were being listened to by John Markoff and Tsutomu Shimomura as they were trying to track him down.
[37:00.390 --> 37:11.610]  It goes above and beyond what journalism is when you're helping the FBI in tracking down somebody, but that's exactly what was happening.
[37:11.790 --> 37:17.490]  And my conversations were being eavesdropped upon by people who were not law enforcement.
[37:17.690 --> 37:22.310]  It was very interesting and documented in both books, both The Fugitive Game and Takedown.
[37:22.570 --> 37:23.890]  You'll see that.
[37:24.110 --> 37:34.950]  So it was really kind of a bizarre thing to realize that while we were conversing, they were trying to track him down further, and eventually they did.
[37:36.030 --> 37:44.810]  Continuing here, the perspective of the Times' involvement in creating and perpetrating Mitnick's infamy isn't a corner conspiracy theory.
[37:44.810 --> 37:52.690]  It has been widely covered by the mainstream media, including an article in Forbes in 1999, I believe.
[37:52.910 --> 38:04.470]  With Mitnick's death, the Times has an opportunity to revisit how it's important role as a gatekeeper of the news can sometimes result in inflated and hyperbolic coverage of events.
[38:04.610 --> 38:12.610]  In Kevin Mitnick's case, coverage by the Times helped create a perception of risk from Mitnick's behavior far in excess of reality.
[38:12.810 --> 38:14.890]  Thanks for your consideration in this matter.
[38:15.390 --> 38:16.170]  So I'm Greg Newby.
[38:16.290 --> 38:23.010]  Greg, I know that they did not print what you wanted them to print, but I'm glad you wrote that.
[38:23.150 --> 38:28.070]  I'm glad we got to share that with people, and the truth needs to be told.
[38:28.630 --> 38:54.510]  Yeah, I think that's a really, a very strong, I guess, notion that journalists everywhere ought to heed, especially when cultivating sources, because that behavior, it is a form of temptation that I think compromises the integrity that sources trusting you would expect.
[38:55.070 --> 39:07.130]  And, of course, also doing the bidding of what is ultimately in the interests of big business that isn't necessarily...
[39:07.690 --> 39:17.110]  I mean, that may serve their interests, but isn't serving the kind of reporting that needs to be done in that situation.
[39:17.950 --> 39:24.310]  You're sort of taking sides and then going on a mission for what that interest may want.
[39:24.630 --> 39:30.210]  You may feel like a hero in that process, but you're not really doing heroic journalism.
[39:31.850 --> 39:33.650]  Certainly true there.
[39:34.390 --> 39:49.970]  I just want to tell one other story that isn't really remembered all that much, but it's kind of fascinating because it's how we found out that Kevin was on the run in the first place.
[39:50.570 --> 39:55.450]  A bunch of us were at a conference in Chicago.
[39:55.950 --> 40:00.110]  This was in March of 1994.
[40:00.970 --> 40:04.770]  I think late March of 1994.
[40:05.330 --> 40:08.190]  It was called CFP, Computers, Freedom, and Privacy.
[40:08.710 --> 40:12.910]  It would take place in different cities throughout the country year after year.
[40:13.310 --> 40:13.930]  Good conference.
[40:14.370 --> 40:18.870]  And it was one of these conferences where you got to talk to people from law enforcement.
[40:19.150 --> 40:21.290]  And I remember there was this guy from the FBI.
[40:21.490 --> 40:22.690]  I think his name was Jim Settle.
[40:24.530 --> 40:29.390]  He was the FBI guy that was basically on panels and kind of sharing his perspective.
[40:30.130 --> 40:42.750]  In the middle of the night, on one of the nights that we were all out there, three people got arrested or detained or basically questioned aggressively.
[40:43.990 --> 40:45.510]  Robert Steele was one of them.
[40:45.710 --> 40:49.030]  The late Robert Steele, who was our first keynote speaker.
[40:51.950 --> 40:57.710]  Two other people, two other young people were also arrested or detained or questioned.
[40:59.030 --> 41:02.710]  It turned out this had to do with the hunt for Kevin Mitnick.
[41:02.870 --> 41:07.910]  And it's a reminder to those of you out there, the FBI is always on duty.
[41:08.710 --> 41:15.670]  They may pretend to be on a panel at a conference, but they're watching and they're acting.
[41:15.950 --> 41:17.830]  And that's exactly what happened at this conference.
[41:18.290 --> 41:21.810]  Except they messed it up so badly, it was comical.
[41:22.070 --> 41:23.270]  There is a radio show.
[41:23.430 --> 41:24.430]  We did a radio show.
[41:24.550 --> 41:28.270]  Look it up on 2600.com where we keep all our radio shows.
[41:29.050 --> 41:37.230]  And the end of March 1994, you will find, I think we talked to everybody who was involved, who had been questioned, that is.
[41:38.430 --> 41:42.950]  Robert Steele was questioned because his last name was Steele.
[41:43.090 --> 41:45.510]  And they were looking for a hacker known as Agent Steele.
[41:45.670 --> 41:49.450]  It was spelled differently, S-T-E-A-L, not S-T-E-E-L-E.
[41:50.410 --> 41:53.150]  But the FBI thought maybe there was a connection there.
[41:53.290 --> 41:55.690]  So they basically talked to this guy.
[41:56.150 --> 42:00.090]  They talked to another guy who resembled Agent Steele.
[42:00.250 --> 42:04.310]  His name was Justin Peterson, who was also passed away.
[42:04.950 --> 42:09.630]  And then they talked to a third person who resembled physically Kevin Mitnick.
[42:10.130 --> 42:14.290]  Had nothing to do with Kevin Mitnick, but just looked a little bit like him and that was enough.
[42:15.190 --> 42:19.990]  Yeah, and so that's how we found out that Kevin was in fact being sought by the FBI.
[42:19.990 --> 42:21.030]  They really blew it.
[42:21.190 --> 42:24.650]  They really made a mess out of the whole thing.
[42:24.650 --> 42:26.170]  and it was very embarrassing.
[42:26.710 --> 42:33.690]  It resulted in a lot of distrust and bad feelings, but one hell of a story that we should not forget.
[42:34.610 --> 42:46.210]  Another excerpt that I'd like to go back to, this is the day that Kevin Mitnick was captured in Raleigh, North Carolina.
[42:46.570 --> 42:53.410]  And what's interesting is that we were doing a show on Wednesday, February 15, 1995.
[42:55.810 --> 42:59.770]  and we had the story before anybody else had the story.
[43:00.410 --> 43:01.730]  I had been talking to Kevin.
[43:02.050 --> 43:11.030]  I didn't know where he was, didn't want to know where he was, but I found out that he had been captured very early that morning.
[43:12.770 --> 43:21.470]  As the radio show was airing, the New York Times was being printed and had come out by the time we were off the air and it was front page news again.
[43:21.810 --> 43:25.270]  And that's part of the whole thing, the fact that it was front page news throughout.
[43:25.470 --> 43:37.510]  That's why Kevin Mitnick was always somebody that the FBI and authorities were so keen on capturing because, well, when it's on the front page and you're not finding the guy, you look bad.
[43:37.650 --> 43:39.550]  So they redoubled all their efforts.
[43:40.170 --> 43:46.990]  Let's listen to the first five minutes of that show, February 15th, 1995, Off the Hook.
[43:50.650 --> 43:52.090]  And a good evening, everybody.
[43:52.450 --> 44:07.990]  This is Off the Hook, the program that deals with the dreaded term of cyberspace and all kinds of other fun things going on in the net community, the telephone world, the hacker world, the big brother, Orwellian future that lies ahead for all of us.
[44:09.090 --> 44:16.670]  And tonight we have some rather sad news in the world of cyberspace, as it were, in the world of hackers.
[44:17.850 --> 44:23.510]  This is something that has not yet gone out over the wires because I don't think the wires know about it yet.
[44:23.730 --> 44:26.110]  But after tonight they will.
[44:27.110 --> 44:29.330]  Early this morning, Kevin Mitnick was apprehended.
[44:29.510 --> 44:33.630]  Kevin Mitnick being the hacker who was on the run for at least a year.
[44:34.250 --> 44:59.110]  And this happened as a result, starting with a parole violation, probation violation last year, if you recall, we had a show focusing on what happened in Chicago at a convention called Computers Freedom and Privacy, where the Federal Bureau of Investigation investigated three wrong people,
[44:59.350 --> 45:19.310]  including a former CIA operative, thinking that they were on the trail of both Kevin Mitnick and Agent Steele, Justin Peterson, who was someone working for the FBI at one point who was trying to entrap hackers, and then went on the run himself and was committing all kinds of crimes.
[45:19.350 --> 45:23.910]  They caught up with Agent Steele not too long after that.
[45:24.290 --> 45:36.670]  But Kevin Mitnick always remained one step ahead, sometimes two steps ahead, up until this morning when he was apprehended in, from what I hear, North Carolina, our favorite state.
[45:38.990 --> 45:41.390]  And that's really all we know right now.
[45:41.670 --> 45:45.270]  We know this happened at about, I think, three in the morning our time.
[45:48.210 --> 45:53.270]  And what's funny about all this is that I just talked to him only a couple of days ago.
[45:53.370 --> 46:01.110]  Actually, I was talking to him fairly recently before he actually got apprehended.
[46:02.230 --> 46:11.110]  And it's kind of a sad thing when you're talking to somebody that's on the run like that because, you know, there are so many things that they want to do that they just can't do.
[46:11.770 --> 46:19.350]  They can't hang out publicly, they can't go to meetings or see anybody that they might be expected to see.
[46:19.410 --> 46:23.270]  They pretty much have to live a rented car, motel, fast food life.
[46:23.270 --> 46:25.110]  And that's sort of what Kevin was doing.
[46:25.870 --> 46:27.730]  I never asked him where he was.
[46:28.010 --> 46:29.110]  I didn't want to know.
[46:29.970 --> 46:34.430]  I only hoped deep down within me that he had left the country.
[46:35.910 --> 46:36.910]  Obviously, he didn't.
[46:37.630 --> 46:49.530]  I know a few weeks ago, a couple of weeks ago, there was a very close call in Seattle where he almost got picked up and I think he somehow found out about it a half hour afterwards.
[46:49.530 --> 46:54.050]  He basically missed them by about a half hour and they were very frustrated by that.
[46:54.910 --> 47:00.530]  one thing I tried to tell Kevin was that these people are very, very good at what they do.
[47:01.450 --> 47:02.770]  You have to keep that in mind.
[47:03.430 --> 47:05.830]  Somehow, they're able to find people.
[47:06.050 --> 47:16.210]  If they grow facial hair or get a nose job or something, if you get your picture in the paper on America's Most Wanted, they somehow figure out that it's you anyway.
[47:16.750 --> 47:17.250]  You know?
[47:17.630 --> 47:20.270]  When's the last time you heard of the FBI not finding somebody?
[47:20.370 --> 47:24.470]  Well, there was Abby Hoffman, of course, but I think he was the only person that was able to do it and pull it off successfully.
[47:24.630 --> 47:28.130]  Everybody, especially today, with cameras all over the place.
[47:28.750 --> 47:29.130]  You know?
[47:29.210 --> 47:30.370]  You never know when you're being looked at.
[47:31.410 --> 47:35.530]  Actually, you never know when you're not being looked at these days, because most of the time you're being looked at somewhere.
[47:37.090 --> 47:43.670]  And that's the kind of world that Kevin Mitnick had to live in and not be recognized.
[47:43.910 --> 47:45.510]  It could only last for so long.
[47:46.030 --> 47:57.210]  I think we all knew it was going to end at some point and I had this gut feeling that it was going to be soon because it just seemed like things were reaching a crescendo.
[47:58.750 --> 48:02.410]  And when you're on the run for so long, you kind of get sloppy after a while.
[48:02.410 --> 48:09.770]  You kind of don't think to cover your trail quite as neatly.
[48:10.730 --> 48:14.330]  And I was worried that he was calling and that I was talking to him.
[48:14.450 --> 48:17.030]  If my phone was tapped, maybe they could do a trace.
[48:17.150 --> 48:19.090]  If he was talking to me, maybe he was talking to other people.
[48:20.850 --> 48:25.010]  It was rather sad to think of it in that way.
[48:25.990 --> 48:28.330]  Now you might ask, well, this guy is a criminal.
[48:28.630 --> 48:32.450]  How can you talk to someone like that?
[48:32.550 --> 48:33.750]  How can you harbor a fugitive?
[48:33.890 --> 48:35.190]  Well, of course, that's nonsense.
[48:36.770 --> 48:40.110]  Kevin is as much a criminal as any of us, I think.
[48:40.510 --> 48:42.330]  Basically, his crime is knowledge.
[48:42.490 --> 48:44.810]  And I think that's something that really, really frightens people.
[48:45.270 --> 48:50.370]  And it certainly frightens governments, agencies, people in power.
[48:50.850 --> 48:57.930]  Because here's a guy that can do virtually anything on a network involving computers, involving the phone system.
[48:59.110 --> 49:00.570]  Admittedly, he's very good at what he does.
[49:00.730 --> 49:02.330]  Admittedly, he's very good at getting information.
[49:03.410 --> 49:07.250]  And that makes people in high places very, very nervous.
[49:07.810 --> 49:09.170]  No question about that.
[49:09.990 --> 49:14.370]  But is the guy, a criminal worthy of being locked up?
[49:15.030 --> 49:16.170]  I don't think so.
[49:16.970 --> 49:27.990]  And when you think of what is in store for him, you really, really have to wonder if playing by the rules makes any sense at all these days.
[49:30.050 --> 49:40.190]  From the off-the-hook archives, February 15th, 1995, the day that Kevin Mitnick was captured in Raleigh, North Carolina.
[49:41.110 --> 49:45.010]  And those moments where we told the world about that.
[49:46.110 --> 50:01.530]  And yeah, you know, you kind of realize why somebody would run for so long and be determined not to be captured because of what happened to him after that, of the years that were taken from him because of that.
[50:01.650 --> 50:19.210]  And maybe we can understand why people run when the cops say stop, you know, or why people don't just give themselves up and assume that they're going to get a fair trial when it's obvious they won't.
[50:19.410 --> 50:22.930]  There are so many instances of that that we have seen that we continue to see.
[50:24.850 --> 50:27.610]  And Kevin lived that life.
[50:30.070 --> 50:31.890]  We only have a couple of minutes left.
[50:31.890 --> 50:40.430]  I want to invite people to join us on Overtime at 8 o'clock which will be on our YouTube channel which is Channel 2600.
[50:40.610 --> 50:46.650]  It's one word, Channel 2600, or you can just click on the link on the 2600.com webpage up there on the top.
[50:48.370 --> 50:55.150]  I'd like to open it up to Rob, Alex, Kyle, if you have any closing thoughts on Kevin, we have about two minutes.
[50:56.710 --> 50:58.750]  He was very young.
[50:59.010 --> 51:02.190]  It's devastating to lose him so young.
[51:02.990 --> 51:08.150]  And yeah, the best we can do is remember him and remember him well.
[51:12.330 --> 51:25.090]  I think he's going to live on and a lot of us and I think all of us that have met him have had the benefit of his friendship, tutelage and his memory.
[51:25.330 --> 51:33.510]  I think his memory will serve I hope as a comfort and a blessing to so many of us in the community for a very, very long time to come.
[51:33.930 --> 51:46.870]  This is a guy who started in very, very humble origins in California and despite maybe some questionable activities here and there, he changed the world with his life.
[51:47.030 --> 51:55.150]  He changed our attitudes and he made an impact on this world that I think is larger than the size of the crater of the Grand Canyon.
[51:55.890 --> 51:57.630]  He led an extraordinary life.
[51:57.770 --> 52:05.270]  It was cut short by cancer, pancreatic cancer, something that's so unforgiving and so unrelenting.
[52:06.690 --> 52:25.050]  But I think he'll be with us in many, many ways for many, many years to come and I think we need to celebrate his life, his perseverance and his philosophy as well as being a prankster, being a jokester, being somebody who memorizes bus tables, figures things out,
[52:25.330 --> 52:26.810]  shares the information with the community.
[52:27.050 --> 52:30.530]  He embodies the true spirit of the hacker in so many ways.
[52:31.070 --> 52:31.990]  He'll be missed.
[52:32.570 --> 52:47.330]  I just want to thank everyone who has shared and is keeping his memory alive with their recounting and tell other people, tell what you recall in your interactions, if you had some directly or sharing his story.
[52:47.590 --> 53:01.970]  But I just want to thank Kevin for being who he was, for standing up for himself and just sharing what he knew and sharing his time with us.
[53:03.930 --> 53:07.210]  and really giving back as much as he could to the community.
[53:07.370 --> 53:14.430]  And I share the sentiment, I wish he had been able to age and be with us much longer.
[53:14.430 --> 53:20.070]  He deserved that for having so much time taken from him, in our view, unjustly.
[53:20.210 --> 53:25.370]  But we'll keep his memory alive and we'll share some more, I think, as the days and weeks go on.
[53:25.430 --> 53:34.570]  As if this story couldn't get any sadder, word is out that he was going to be a father, a child he will never meet.
[53:35.010 --> 53:38.350]  But Kevin will live on in that way.
[53:38.610 --> 53:40.590]  And that's something.
[53:41.490 --> 53:47.310]  All right, we will see you on YouTube at 8 o'clock for overtime.
[53:50.150 --> 53:57.450]  Kevin was a wanted man for a number of years, but he later became a wanted man of a different sort.
[53:57.670 --> 54:05.730]  Everybody wanted him to speak at their event or their company and share his unique knowledge and we're all so much better off knowing him.
[54:05.870 --> 54:47.710]  Wanted man in California Wanted man in Buffalo Wanted man in Kansas City Wanted man in Ohio Wanted man in Mississippi Wanted man in Old Cheyenne Wherever you might look tonight you might see this wanted man I might be in Colorado or Georgia by the sea working for some man who may not know at all who I might be If you ever see me coming and if you know who I am Don't you breathe it to nobody,
[54:47.810 --> 54:50.530]  cause you know I'm on the lam.
[54:50.910 --> 54:53.390]  Wanted man by Lucy Watson.
[54:53.890 --> 54:56.170]  Wanted man by Jeannie Brown.
[54:56.750 --> 54:59.090]  Wanted man by Nellie Johnson.
[54:59.530 --> 55:01.970]  Wanted man in this text town.
[55:02.410 --> 55:07.630]  Well, I've had all that I wanted, of a lot of things I had.
[55:07.890 --> 55:13.310]  And a lot more than I needed, of something that turned out bad.
[55:35.160 --> 56:01.180]  I got sidetracked in El Paso Stopped to get myself a map Went the wrong way into Juarez With Juanita on my lap Then I went to sleep in Shreveport Woke up in Abilene Wondering why the hell I'm wanted at some town halfway between.
[56:01.710 --> 56:04.280]  Wanted man in Albuquerque.
[56:04.900 --> 56:07.100]  Wanted man in Syracuse.
[56:07.460 --> 56:10.140]  Wanted man in Tallahassee.
[56:10.400 --> 56:12.500]  Wanted man in Baton Rouge.
[56:12.500 --> 56:15.710]  There's somebody set to grab me.
[56:15.940 --> 56:18.200]  Anywhere that I might be.
[56:18.710 --> 56:23.860]  And wherever you might look tonight, you might get a glimpse of me.
[56:24.420 --> 56:26.420]  Wanted man in California.
[56:27.300 --> 56:29.120]  Wanted man in Buffalo.
[56:29.840 --> 56:32.420]  Wanted man in Kansas City.
[56:32.800 --> 56:34.730]  Wanted man in Ohio.
[56:35.540 --> 56:37.640]  Wanted man in Mississippi.
[56:52.660 --> 56:54.480]  This is Ralph Poynter.
[56:54.860 --> 56:59.360]  Join me and others every Wednesday, 8 to 9 p.m.
[56:59.560 --> 57:04.540]  Eastern Time on WBAI 99.5 on your radio town.
[57:05.640 --> 57:18.440]  It would appear the human movement is such that at any moment in history, there are too few that understand possibilities of existence that would benefit all who inhabit this planet.
[57:18.440 --> 57:21.760]  and are willing to act on this understanding.
[57:22.640 --> 57:25.080]  This program will feature that few.
[57:25.780 --> 57:30.040]  What are your views on these issues that impact your life today?
[57:30.320 --> 57:33.660]  What are your views on America today?
[57:34.200 --> 57:37.560]  What are your views on America's future?
[57:38.120 --> 57:39.240]  Can we talk?
[57:39.240 --> 57:44.500]  Call in 212-209-2877.
[57:44.520 --> 57:46.780]  Wednesday, 8 to 9 p.m.
[57:46.900 --> 57:51.300]  on WBAI 99.5 on your radio town.
[00:05.510 --> 00:08.230]  And welcome to everybody here on YouTube.
[00:09.710 --> 00:10.030]  Hello.
[00:10.910 --> 00:12.810]  You're holding the microphone in your hand, Kyle.
[00:12.810 --> 00:13.610]  I forgot to move it.
[00:13.770 --> 00:15.250]  Okay, well, just put it down, put it down.
[00:15.430 --> 00:16.390]  It's going to be loud, though.
[00:16.470 --> 00:17.950]  Oh, that's what people like to hear.
[00:18.110 --> 00:18.810]  Go ahead, put it down.
[00:18.910 --> 00:19.210]  Gently.
[00:20.030 --> 00:20.650]  No, hard.
[00:21.690 --> 00:22.350]  There you go.
[00:23.790 --> 00:24.910]  Rob, did you make it?
[00:25.910 --> 00:26.530]  I've made it.
[00:26.710 --> 00:29.050]  Okay, and Alex, it looks like you're here as well.
[00:30.010 --> 00:31.410]  Yeah, I'm here.
[00:31.590 --> 00:32.690]  I like the suit, by the way.
[00:32.690 --> 00:34.470]  I think you should dress up every week.
[00:36.150 --> 00:38.050]  Yeah, I tend to agree.
[00:38.250 --> 00:41.710]  I just feel like I take the show much more seriously.
[00:43.830 --> 00:47.930]  We've been looking for ways to make you do that, and this seems to be a good step, at least.
[00:48.750 --> 00:49.670]  So there's that.
[00:50.450 --> 00:51.250]  Well, you know what?
[00:51.450 --> 00:56.630]  Let's just give out the phone number right away, so if people have anything they wish to share about Kevin.
[00:56.710 --> 00:58.230]  And we don't have to just talk about that.
[00:58.270 --> 00:59.330]  We can talk about other things as well.
[00:59.330 --> 01:04.070]  Well, 802-321-4225 is our phone number, 802-321-HACK.
[01:04.670 --> 01:06.290]  It's been a while since we've done this.
[01:06.390 --> 01:23.510]  And by the way, we're not doing the chat tonight because we're down a staff member, and it takes all of us, all of our combined mental abilities, to be able to field all the comments that are coming our way to make sure that they're acceptable for our audience and all that.
[01:24.890 --> 01:27.650]  Yeah, so, difficult show.
[01:27.870 --> 01:28.530]  Knew it would be.
[01:31.830 --> 01:32.710]  Yeah, it's...
[01:34.330 --> 01:35.430]  I'm still processing.
[01:35.650 --> 01:38.410]  I'm still processing that Kevin's gone.
[01:39.970 --> 01:42.130]  And it's going to take a while, you know?
[01:43.010 --> 01:44.950]  But this is part of living.
[01:45.190 --> 01:47.750]  Part of living is dealing with loss.
[01:47.750 --> 01:56.090]  And I don't know if we're going to get any better at it, but it's something we're all going through together, so nobody out there should feel like they're alone.
[01:57.290 --> 01:57.870]  Rob, go ahead.
[01:59.210 --> 02:04.510]  Yeah, and as I said on our radio hour, there have been so many reminiscences shared with us.
[02:04.690 --> 02:06.270]  We'd like to hear more, so give us a call.
[02:06.390 --> 02:13.530]  But while we're waiting for calls, I'd like to read one or two things that came in on Mastodon over the past week when we posted the news.
[02:13.530 --> 02:24.870]  As Margaret posts, shocked and saddened to hear of Kevin's passing, I was on the editorial team that published his first book, The Art of Deception, which gave invaluable insights into the human aspects of tech security.
[02:27.470 --> 02:27.970]  Yeah.
[02:28.450 --> 02:31.050]  Code Ripper says, I'm re-watching Freedom Downtime this morning.
[02:32.390 --> 02:33.210]  F cancer.
[02:35.390 --> 02:36.350]  You quite agree.
[02:36.690 --> 02:37.370]  Yeah, yeah.
[02:38.530 --> 02:43.130]  I can't even imagine the hell that he was going through over the past year.
[02:43.650 --> 02:50.530]  You know, because, as we mentioned, pancreatic cancer is so unforgiving and so relentless and so hard to even detect.
[02:51.490 --> 02:57.890]  And it's just, it's so humbling to realize that, you know, on this planet, there was nobody that could help him.
[02:58.330 --> 03:01.850]  That's where we are in our development as human race.
[03:02.470 --> 03:03.990]  One day, that will change.
[03:04.090 --> 03:05.050]  I have no doubt.
[03:05.210 --> 03:09.090]  But right now, yeah, it's a terrible thing.
[03:09.310 --> 03:10.390]  It's a terrible thing.
[03:10.390 --> 03:19.590]  And I just, I hope he found peace during that horrible ordeal as if he hadn't been through enough horrible ordeals.
[03:21.330 --> 03:22.950]  We have a call, Kyle?
[03:23.250 --> 03:24.110]  Okay, let's...
[03:24.990 --> 03:27.810]  No, that's not something we want.
[03:27.930 --> 03:28.870]  It's a regular caller.
[03:29.270 --> 03:30.250]  It's a regular call?
[03:30.330 --> 03:30.930]  What do you mean by that?
[03:31.190 --> 03:32.190]  The fast busy.
[03:32.790 --> 03:34.030]  Oh, the off-hook tone.
[03:34.370 --> 03:34.870]  Yes.
[03:35.510 --> 03:39.610]  The phone line will be open for a couple more minutes.
[03:39.830 --> 03:40.470]  Well, it's open now.
[03:40.790 --> 03:42.370]  802-321-4225.
[03:42.510 --> 03:44.230]  Yeah, that's an anticipation of a call.
[03:44.450 --> 03:46.790]  Please feel free to join our conversation.
[03:47.470 --> 03:51.250]  Otherwise, you can always write us O-T-H at 2600.com.
[03:51.990 --> 03:54.850]  Yeah, we had him on the show a number of times.
[03:54.850 --> 03:59.870]  And it was, it was always so much fun taking calls from, from listeners then.
[04:01.170 --> 04:06.750]  and just giving him, you know, a platform, a way to reach out to people.
[04:07.090 --> 04:16.330]  That first talk at Hope, you know, in 2004, that was a big deal because, remember, 1994, he was on the run, you know.
[04:16.510 --> 04:22.090]  In fact, I remember we were talking to him on wall phones at the hotel, Hotel Pennsylvania.
[04:22.870 --> 04:26.370]  We didn't know where he was, but he was phoning in to see how the conference was going.
[04:26.530 --> 04:29.430]  Again, it was the first big conference in the United States.
[04:29.430 --> 04:31.770]  It was inspired by the Dutch conferences.
[04:32.210 --> 04:36.030]  Then in 1997, he had been caught, but he was in prison.
[04:36.190 --> 04:38.630]  So obviously, he couldn't come to the conference then.
[04:39.190 --> 04:51.990]  In 2000, H2K, he was out, but he was on supervised release for three years, which also kept him from attending in 2002 at H2K2.
[04:52.350 --> 04:57.830]  But the Fifth Hope in 2004 was the period where supervised release ended.
[04:57.830 --> 05:20.010]  and yeah, he showed up and that, I believe, is the first time he ever actually started talking about his life, what he was going through, not just security talks and things like that, which he excelled at and did such an amazing job and helped so many people and companies and institutions throughout the world.
[05:20.010 --> 05:21.570]  It became his mission.
[05:21.710 --> 05:25.790]  And people really started to realize this guy has talent.
[05:25.930 --> 05:26.890]  This guy knows something.
[05:27.030 --> 05:28.610]  This guy should never have been locked away.
[05:28.990 --> 05:29.310]  Go ahead, Rob.
[05:30.170 --> 05:34.110]  And you mentioned 2000, where he couldn't be at the conference.
[05:34.110 --> 05:41.950]  He wasn't allowed to associate with his computer friends, but that was the year that Freedom Downtime premiered at the conference, or at least an earlier cut of it.
[05:41.950 --> 05:53.930]  And at the end, there was a recorded message from Kevin, which I think is his first intentional legal appearance at a HOPE conference.
[05:53.950 --> 05:58.630]  And I remember, and I'm sure you remember, the round of applause that that got when he popped up on the screen.
[05:59.170 --> 05:59.850]  Yeah, absolutely.
[06:00.170 --> 06:01.950]  That was something.
[06:02.090 --> 06:03.050]  That was an incredible time.
[06:03.290 --> 06:03.930]  It really was.
[06:04.290 --> 06:05.150]  Do we have a phone call, Carl?
[06:05.490 --> 06:05.830]  Yes.
[06:06.010 --> 06:06.250]  Okay.
[06:06.650 --> 06:07.450]  And good evening.
[06:07.450 --> 06:09.410]  You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
[06:09.490 --> 06:09.710]  Go ahead.
[06:10.770 --> 06:11.590]  Yes, Emmanuel.
[06:11.590 --> 06:11.750]  Emmanuel.
[06:12.730 --> 06:13.130]  Yes.
[06:13.290 --> 06:14.150]  How old was Kevin?
[06:14.350 --> 06:15.010]  I'm just curious.
[06:15.150 --> 06:15.990]  He was...
[06:15.990 --> 06:17.210]  He was 59.
[06:18.870 --> 06:19.270]  59?
[06:19.710 --> 06:20.130]  Oh, wow.
[06:20.370 --> 06:20.570]  Okay.
[06:20.690 --> 06:21.510]  I'm way older than me.
[06:21.630 --> 06:21.870]  Okay.
[06:22.230 --> 06:25.810]  Well, I'm sorry that that happened.
[06:26.050 --> 06:26.250]  Yeah.
[06:26.490 --> 06:28.350]  You know, first, it was...
[06:28.870 --> 06:29.830]  Who was it, Jim?
[06:30.030 --> 06:30.790]  And then...
[06:30.790 --> 06:33.130]  Yeah, it's been a rough year.
[06:33.290 --> 06:33.830]  It really has been.
[06:34.790 --> 06:36.950]  Had you met Kevin at any of the conferences?
[06:37.630 --> 06:38.630]  I think I did.
[06:38.790 --> 06:42.830]  And now, I took a four, I hope, 2004, I think I did make you meet him.
[06:43.010 --> 06:43.050]  Yeah.
[06:43.050 --> 06:46.190]  Yeah, that's the one we played the excerpt from just earlier.
[06:47.130 --> 06:47.470]  Right.
[06:47.630 --> 06:48.410]  Yeah, I met him there.
[06:48.690 --> 06:49.670]  I don't know if I met him.
[06:49.810 --> 06:51.610]  Well, I don't remember, but I might have...
[06:51.610 --> 06:53.770]  I mean, I did go to the talk, but...
[06:53.770 --> 06:57.030]  I mean, look, he probably would have met you at some point.
[06:57.150 --> 06:58.190]  We wouldn't have been able to stop him.
[06:58.730 --> 07:06.850]  So, not that we would have tried, but I'm just saying, he was very personable and reached out to everybody and would listen to everybody.
[07:07.030 --> 07:10.550]  It didn't matter if you were 12 or 80, he would listen to you.
[07:11.490 --> 07:12.610]  I hope you don't go.
[07:12.950 --> 07:13.770]  Well, thank you.
[07:13.770 --> 07:18.130]  That's the nicest thing you've ever said, but yeah, fingers crossed.
[07:19.790 --> 07:30.170]  Rebel, were you at the 2600 meeting in, I think it was March of 2000 when Kevin was out of prison and he was able to go to the New York City 2600 meeting?
[07:31.070 --> 07:31.930]  March of when?
[07:32.630 --> 07:34.870]  Was it 2000 or would it have been later?
[07:35.010 --> 07:36.950]  I don't think he would have been allowed to go in 2000.
[07:37.870 --> 07:42.010]  Whenever it was, it was his first 2600 meeting and he wrote about it later for the magazine.
[07:42.890 --> 07:56.010]  And he showed up and I don't think he was sure what to expect, but people like recognized him and started speaking with him and at one point they made the shift to asking him for autographs, which I don't think he was quite prepared for.
[07:56.730 --> 08:02.310]  But he, that was the first time I met him in person and I think he might have been there, Rebel.
[08:04.350 --> 08:10.030]  And he was very engaging and great to talk with even then.
[08:11.850 --> 08:13.430]  And now I'm curious when that was.
[08:14.070 --> 08:14.710]  Go ahead, Rebel.
[08:16.130 --> 08:17.190]  You haven't been around.
[08:17.190 --> 08:18.510]  You've been traveling again?
[08:18.710 --> 08:21.770]  I was at the meeting and they said you were traveling again.
[08:22.630 --> 08:23.830]  Who said I was traveling again?
[08:24.750 --> 08:25.390]  Well, I was.
[08:25.390 --> 08:26.190]  I was in Alaska.
[08:26.350 --> 08:26.510]  Yeah.
[08:27.070 --> 08:29.170]  I actually haven't been on the radio since June.
[08:29.390 --> 08:31.530]  So, yeah, I guess they were telling the truth.
[08:32.370 --> 08:37.750]  Well, because we haven't, you haven't had a show since when, the last time I called in was when I was in Russia when I was in St. Petersburg.
[08:37.750 --> 08:38.510]  Uh-huh.
[08:39.570 --> 08:55.010]  I remember when I was in, in Petersburg, they have, you know, National Guard, well, I guess they're a version of National Guard people at the airport and at the train stations, you know, and, you know, like, go to the main transit hub.
[08:55.150 --> 09:11.030]  They have, like, National Guard, like, booking people with, armed people, you know, at the subway, not the subway station, but the, uh, railways, like, like the, the main railway stations and at the airports and things like that.
[09:11.250 --> 09:11.850]  Uh-huh, uh-huh.
[09:12.370 --> 09:16.490]  Well, it must have been a fun experience going, going over there again a second time.
[09:17.310 --> 09:17.750]  Yeah.
[09:20.190 --> 09:21.910]  So, is there anything else you want to share with us?
[09:22.550 --> 09:36.850]  Well, I wanted to mention, I wanted to demonstrate the, well, 1-800-GO-FEDEX because I was trying to order something or, you know, the status of an order or to actually change because I ordered something online which I don't like doing but sometimes you have to when you,
[09:36.950 --> 09:39.410]  you know, when you can't get something in the store.
[09:40.270 --> 09:49.250]  And, uh, they got the wrong address and, uh, they said, well, we delivered the package to you, well, we tried and there was no address or it was incorrect or whatever.
[09:49.590 --> 09:52.330]  The sender said this for people who had bought it them.
[09:52.510 --> 09:58.070]  So I was trying to call FedEx and, um, they demonstrate what happens when you don't, you know, do send it.
[09:58.150 --> 09:59.890]  They don't even connect you anymore.
[10:00.070 --> 10:00.410]  Uh-huh.
[10:00.410 --> 10:00.470]  Uh-huh.
[10:00.610 --> 10:01.170]  Like a representative.
[10:01.870 --> 10:02.410]  Uh, would you like it?
[10:02.490 --> 10:03.010]  Would you want to hold?
[10:03.010 --> 10:05.070]  Well, you're just going to connect this to a recording, right?
[10:05.070 --> 10:07.310]  I mean, we're just going to be as frustrated as you've been.
[10:08.310 --> 10:08.670]  Right.
[10:08.830 --> 10:14.290]  Would you want to hold and I'll demonstrate it but it's voice activated so I'm going to put myself on mute and you shouldn't talk.
[10:14.630 --> 10:14.990]  Okay.
[10:15.090 --> 10:20.590]  So we'll shut up and, uh, we'll just let you run things for a, for a moment.
[10:20.930 --> 10:21.250]  Okay.
[10:21.430 --> 10:21.670]  Uh-uh.
[10:21.770 --> 10:23.090]  Just, uh, you put yourself on mute.
[10:23.210 --> 10:23.550]  Hold on.
[10:23.590 --> 10:23.870]  Okay.
[10:24.190 --> 10:25.210]  Can you refill my glass?
[10:36.250 --> 10:37.290]  Welcome to FedEx.
[10:37.770 --> 10:41.470]  This call may be monitored or recorded for quality assurance.
[10:41.830 --> 10:46.450]  We have new enhanced mobile features you can conveniently access from your phone.
[10:46.910 --> 10:48.850]  Are you calling from a cell phone?
[10:56.340 --> 11:02.480]  Last time, you called about a shipment with a tracking number ending in 5496.
[11:02.620 --> 11:04.340]  Did you want to check on that shipment?
[11:11.310 --> 11:19.030]  If you're calling to get information about the tracking number ending in 5496, say yes or press 1.
[11:19.250 --> 11:21.410]  Otherwise, say no or press 2.
[11:22.090 --> 11:22.450]  Yes.
[11:25.190 --> 11:25.550]  Okay.
[11:27.530 --> 11:29.650]  This FedEx ground shipment...
[11:30.230 --> 11:30.890]  I'm sorry.
[11:30.990 --> 11:31.230]  Go ahead.
[11:31.390 --> 11:31.690]  Sorry.
[11:33.410 --> 11:35.010]  I still didn't understand.
[11:35.130 --> 11:35.730]  No, it's my fault.
[11:35.850 --> 11:36.370]  That's all you need.
[11:36.430 --> 11:37.910]  No, please tell me about the tracking.
[11:38.050 --> 11:38.830]  Give me all the information.
[11:42.150 --> 11:43.570]  Sorry, I'm having so much trouble.
[11:43.990 --> 11:47.390]  Unfortunately, that's all the information we can provide at this time.
[11:47.390 --> 11:48.270]  You didn't tell me anything.
[11:48.270 --> 11:51.490]  To manage your delivery, please visit FedEx.com.
[11:51.510 --> 11:52.450]  Where is it being delivered?
[11:52.770 --> 11:53.410]  Don't tell me.
[11:53.650 --> 11:55.030]  No, don't hang up.
[11:55.170 --> 11:55.870]  Please don't go.
[11:57.650 --> 11:58.450]  You see?
[11:58.650 --> 12:02.350]  I mean, if you don't have buttons on your telephone, like, you know...
[12:02.890 --> 12:03.990]  I feel so rejected.
[12:05.090 --> 12:05.490]  Wow.
[12:05.550 --> 12:07.010]  She was going to drop your docs, though.
[12:07.110 --> 12:12.090]  She was going to tell me all kinds of information as to where that package was going and the full tracking number, maybe.
[12:14.030 --> 12:16.030]  Well, that just went out over the years.
[12:16.210 --> 12:17.490]  It sure did, yes.
[12:17.950 --> 12:20.350]  People are already filling in the numbers.
[12:22.930 --> 12:24.050]  Well, let's see.
[12:24.350 --> 12:27.250]  Well, if they don't say anything, it hangs up.
[12:27.350 --> 12:28.350]  It says, you know...
[12:29.010 --> 12:31.850]  Well, let me demonstrate it when you don't...
[12:31.850 --> 12:32.470]  Actually, no.
[12:33.030 --> 12:35.810]  I think you demonstrated it just fine.
[12:35.950 --> 12:37.190]  You know, I think we get the idea.
[12:40.210 --> 12:42.330]  Yeah, and when you call, they're in the Philippines.
[12:43.010 --> 12:44.450]  Okay, that's also good to know.
[12:45.790 --> 12:46.550]  Rebel, anything else?
[12:46.670 --> 12:47.830]  We're going to try and take some more calls.
[12:49.010 --> 12:50.210]  No, I guess that's it.
[12:50.410 --> 12:50.670]  Okay.
[12:50.950 --> 12:52.630]  I hope nobody hacks my package now.
[12:52.750 --> 12:53.710]  It's only a gaming chip.
[12:54.110 --> 12:57.410]  Well, now you've told us what it is, and you've given us the last few digits.
[12:58.890 --> 13:04.430]  And, you know, it's interesting that they remember that you called before about that particular item.
[13:04.430 --> 13:06.490]  Well, because of my phone number, that's why...
[13:06.490 --> 13:07.670]  Yeah, I didn't know they did that.
[13:07.750 --> 13:08.350]  Now I know that.
[13:09.890 --> 13:10.290]  Yeah.
[13:11.070 --> 13:14.450]  So maybe mask that next time when you're calling a radio station.
[13:15.570 --> 13:16.070]  All right.
[13:16.770 --> 13:18.170]  Rebel, good hearing from you again.
[13:18.470 --> 13:19.370]  It's an 800 number.
[13:19.490 --> 13:20.190]  It's an 800 number.
[13:20.190 --> 13:21.190]  Well, yes, it's an 800.
[13:21.330 --> 13:22.990]  They get your phone number very easily.
[13:23.550 --> 13:23.730]  Yeah.
[13:24.930 --> 13:26.150]  I hope you get your chair.
[13:26.350 --> 13:28.010]  Yeah, I hope it all works out well.
[13:29.930 --> 13:31.170]  It sounds like a Monday.
[13:32.110 --> 13:33.090]  It sounds like a Monday.
[13:33.990 --> 13:34.690]  Excuse me.
[13:34.690 --> 13:34.990]  Yeah.
[13:35.950 --> 13:37.450]  I take care of that first.
[13:38.470 --> 13:41.410]  It's about to come Monday, so it's coming from California.
[13:42.230 --> 13:42.450]  Wow.
[13:42.730 --> 13:43.830]  I hope we didn't give him COVID.
[13:44.110 --> 13:45.590]  You know, we caught COVID on the way back.
[13:46.710 --> 13:48.890]  And it's the kind that goes through telephone lines.
[13:50.290 --> 13:50.930]  The kind.
[13:51.030 --> 13:52.230]  Yeah, there is a kind that does that.
[13:53.730 --> 13:54.250]  Why not?
[13:54.250 --> 13:55.390]  People will believe anything, right?
[13:55.450 --> 13:57.970]  People will believe whatever you say these days, so why not?
[13:58.050 --> 13:59.590]  Yeah, it's COVID that goes through the telephone lines.
[14:00.130 --> 14:02.410]  All right, Rebel, stay healthy, all right?
[14:05.750 --> 14:08.890]  The forthcoming hope, whatever it's called next year.
[14:08.990 --> 14:10.030]  Yeah, whenever it is.
[14:10.110 --> 14:10.670]  It'll be next year.
[14:10.830 --> 14:11.410]  It'll be next year.
[14:11.570 --> 14:11.850]  We promise.
[14:12.290 --> 14:12.790]  Oh, next year.
[14:12.930 --> 14:13.150]  All right.
[14:13.330 --> 14:16.130]  Okay, and I hope to see you at the 2600 meeting in August.
[14:16.250 --> 14:16.650]  You might.
[14:16.790 --> 14:17.450]  You just might.
[14:17.890 --> 14:23.050]  Thank you for calling, and thanks for that wonderful wish of me staying alive.
[14:23.210 --> 14:24.170]  That's a...
[14:24.170 --> 14:25.350]  Hold that close to me.
[14:25.490 --> 14:25.650]  Yeah.
[14:25.930 --> 14:26.530]  All right, be well.
[14:27.530 --> 14:27.890]  Okay.
[14:28.330 --> 14:28.570]  Bye.
[14:28.570 --> 14:32.930]  And, Rob, you'll be pleased to know that I did some research.
[14:33.010 --> 14:42.830]  In fact, I did some research on our own website, on the Off the Hook archives, 2600.com, and I found out that Kevin, in fact, did attend the March 2000 meeting.
[14:43.030 --> 14:45.370]  I'll tell you exactly how it played out.
[14:45.610 --> 14:51.710]  A court TV appearance allows Kevin to be in New York and attend the 2600 meeting there.
[14:52.230 --> 14:53.350]  That is how it happened.
[14:53.610 --> 14:54.090]  Yes.
[14:54.270 --> 15:02.150]  I was looking at the date stamp on the photo that I have from the day of a friend of mine getting something signed.
[15:03.310 --> 15:19.230]  So, yes, it was an interesting day because so many of us had been rallying for so long around the cause of Kevin, and I think for very many people this was the first time that he was an actual human being standing in front of them.
[15:19.690 --> 15:20.790]  Yeah, I remember that.
[15:20.870 --> 15:32.170]  I remember that, you know, in Citigroup, maybe it was called Citicorp back then, basically, yeah, there he was, not making a big deal of being there, but people just came up to him saying, oh, you're Kevin.
[15:32.370 --> 15:40.510]  And that's it, you know, not freaking out or, you know, getting all, like, you know, crazy that there's a celebrity amongst their mitts.
[15:41.210 --> 15:45.350]  Just basically saying, oh, it's good to meet you, you know, and that's all he wanted.
[15:45.530 --> 15:51.990]  That's all he wanted was to be included, was to be part of a community, and this community really opened up to him.
[15:51.990 --> 15:57.110]  It really did, especially after the nightmare was ebbing a bit.
[15:58.170 --> 15:58.730]  So...
[15:58.730 --> 15:58.990]  Absolutely.
[15:59.330 --> 16:18.750]  And, you know, he never asked for the path that brought him into such prominence in our community, but I think he was able to use it well and deal with it well and, you know, remain a contributing and lively part of the hacker community for the decades after.
[16:19.690 --> 16:20.310]  All right.
[16:20.310 --> 16:21.290]  Do we have another phone call?
[16:21.490 --> 16:21.550]  Okay.
[16:21.750 --> 16:22.150]  Good evening.
[16:22.530 --> 16:23.650]  You are on off the hook over time.
[16:23.730 --> 16:23.950]  Go ahead.
[16:25.150 --> 16:25.890]  Yeah, hi.
[16:26.090 --> 16:28.250]  Thanks very much for the past hour.
[16:28.430 --> 16:31.210]  That was a great tribute you gave to Kevin.
[16:31.850 --> 16:42.710]  I know that he took part in at least one social engineering panel, I believe, at Hope, and as well as that keynote that you played before.
[16:42.970 --> 16:49.570]  So besides those two, did he have any other appearances at the Hope conferences or was it just those two?
[16:49.810 --> 16:50.530]  Oh, gosh.
[16:51.090 --> 16:52.370]  You're testing my memory.
[16:52.670 --> 16:55.190]  I mean, I'm sure he was there for a few.
[16:55.450 --> 16:57.350]  I'm not sure if he spoke at all of them.
[16:58.030 --> 17:00.890]  I would say at least two or three, at least.
[17:01.210 --> 17:01.490]  Okay.
[17:01.990 --> 17:02.210]  Yeah.
[17:02.810 --> 17:04.250]  Well, I'll look through YouTube.
[17:04.250 --> 17:19.030]  But what was special about 2004, though, 2004, the Fifth Hope, was basically his mom and his grandmother came with him and it was just, it was such a joyous occasion, them being in New York City and him not being in prison.
[17:19.430 --> 17:23.090]  Of course, they were horrified by the rooms in Hotel Penn, but, you know, they got over that.
[17:23.210 --> 17:24.130]  They said, you know what?
[17:24.130 --> 17:24.650]  It's okay.
[17:25.170 --> 17:28.870]  This is a special occasion and we're all just going to get through the weekend.
[17:29.190 --> 17:30.370]  And we all did.
[17:30.470 --> 17:34.750]  We had a great time and it was just so nice seeing everybody together.
[17:35.350 --> 17:38.110]  And I just wish there could have been more days like that.
[17:39.390 --> 17:48.770]  Well, when I saw on the internet that he passed away, I re-watched Freedom Downtime and it still holds up.
[17:48.870 --> 17:54.010]  I mean, I love it as much just seeing it as I saw when I saw it the first time.
[17:54.150 --> 17:59.630]  And when I saw it at Hope, my first reaction was, I hope you guys will just replay it.
[17:59.710 --> 18:03.350]  I wanted to see it all over again as soon as it ended.
[18:03.510 --> 18:04.410]  It was that great.
[18:04.750 --> 18:06.970]  So, thanks so much for making that film.
[18:07.110 --> 18:08.730]  Thank you for the support.
[18:08.930 --> 18:10.310]  That means a lot to us.
[18:11.190 --> 18:20.510]  And I hope you'll consider making another documentary if some issue moves you as much because you really did a phenomenal job on that film.
[18:20.870 --> 18:22.210]  Well, we broke all the rules.
[18:22.250 --> 18:23.350]  I'll tell you that right now.
[18:23.850 --> 18:27.150]  So, I'm not sure I can get away with it again, but I don't know.
[18:27.230 --> 18:27.450]  Who knows?
[18:27.530 --> 18:28.670]  There certainly are a lot of issues.
[18:28.950 --> 18:31.170]  It's a question of which one do you pick?
[18:31.290 --> 18:32.470]  There's just so much out there.
[18:32.790 --> 18:35.350]  But again, you know, back then, there was no YouTube.
[18:36.070 --> 18:37.290]  There weren't smartphones.
[18:37.770 --> 18:41.750]  Now, so many people can do what we did and probably do a better job.
[18:41.910 --> 18:46.490]  So, I hope that people take advantage of the technology that's at their fingertips.
[18:46.490 --> 18:55.790]  Yeah, the means of producing are that much cheaper to edit, to do all that stuff as was done with Freedom Downtime, including distribution.
[18:56.410 --> 19:01.150]  I think there's still half a pallet of VHS tapes somewhere that we're trying to find a home for.
[19:01.490 --> 19:04.770]  You know, recycling VHS tapes is a really tricky business.
[19:04.850 --> 19:05.890]  Oh my God, that's great.
[19:05.890 --> 19:07.250]  You basically have to incinerate it.
[19:07.530 --> 19:11.290]  But long story long, thank you for the acknowledgement.
[19:11.290 --> 19:17.150]  And we are still walking around with cameras, so to speak, ourselves.
[19:17.650 --> 19:22.370]  So, with any luck, maybe we will have some more filmmaking in the future.
[19:22.670 --> 19:23.670]  Please encourage us.
[19:23.870 --> 19:24.990]  Well, thanks for the great tribute.
[19:25.210 --> 19:29.150]  And I will definitely check out his previous talks on YouTube.
[19:29.510 --> 19:32.070]  So, thanks for paying tribute to him.
[19:32.270 --> 19:33.910]  He'll definitely be missed.
[19:34.130 --> 19:35.670]  And rest in peace, Kevin.
[19:35.830 --> 19:37.730]  And thank you guys for doing such a great job.
[19:37.910 --> 19:38.750]  Thank you very much.
[19:38.870 --> 19:38.910]  Have a great night.
[19:39.230 --> 19:39.610]  Take care.
[19:40.130 --> 19:40.370]  Bye.
[19:41.150 --> 19:42.110]  What a nice call.
[19:42.710 --> 19:43.790]  That was great.
[19:44.050 --> 19:49.770]  I think that persona is pretty much what the community has been feeling in the past week or so.
[19:50.090 --> 19:51.990]  He really did maintain a presence.
[19:51.990 --> 19:54.510]  He would travel a lot.
[19:54.510 --> 19:58.750]  I know he did come as you were reaching for...
[19:58.750 --> 20:01.990]  He was at, at least, in a personal capacity.
[20:01.990 --> 20:03.990]  He would attend every now and then.
[20:04.110 --> 20:08.390]  And, of course, other events and conferences around the country and the world.
[20:08.530 --> 20:14.910]  And he was able to rebuild a consulting career and help people, as you said.
[20:15.150 --> 20:23.950]  He traveled all over the place, met and continued on, persevered, sharing his knowledge and doing it for hire, too.
[20:24.310 --> 20:26.930]  And being able to sustain himself in that way.
[20:27.130 --> 20:30.530]  And to great benefit, I think, of a lot of organizations.
[20:31.030 --> 20:32.090]  And we were...
[20:32.090 --> 20:43.890]  Anybody who was able to see him or catch up with him or hear about his latest ventures, I think, was better for it.
[20:43.970 --> 20:53.690]  And we were really, really lucky to have him after so much for the even short period that we did.
[20:53.810 --> 20:55.010]  You want to hear something crazy.
[20:55.750 --> 20:58.210]  Kevin actually helped us today.
[20:59.210 --> 21:05.710]  It's weird because, you know, I was looking for that clip on one of our Hope websites.
[21:05.890 --> 21:10.850]  And this is something we don't really publicize, but a lot of people have figured it out already.
[21:11.350 --> 21:13.750]  We assign a Roman numeral to each conference.
[21:14.390 --> 21:17.210]  And we used to have a different domain.
[21:17.470 --> 21:19.510]  In other words, we had h2k.net.
[21:19.690 --> 21:20.510]  We might still have that.
[21:21.130 --> 21:21.930]  h2k2.net.
[21:22.130 --> 21:27.210]  Every conference had a different website or different domain that we would have to register.
[21:28.130 --> 21:42.790]  And, you know, it's great when you have two or three conferences, but when they're getting over a dozen, there's a lot of domains you have to keep renewing and eventually you ask yourself the question, why don't we just have it all done locally and we simply make,
[21:42.790 --> 21:47.110]  you know, the fourth conference be iv.hope.net and, you know, et cetera.
[21:47.690 --> 21:53.810]  So, the 5th, the 5th hope.net, I believe, is either 5th hope.net or 5th hope.org.
[21:53.870 --> 21:58.830]  The fact that I can't remember it is one of the reasons why I figured it was time to just let it expire.
[21:59.210 --> 22:00.050]  And that's what we did.
[22:05.130 --> 22:10.430]  everything to go locally, except for some reason we didn't do that.
[22:11.150 --> 22:13.570]  We didn't do it the way we were supposed to do it.
[22:14.530 --> 22:20.450]  And while looking for Kevin's talk today, I was trying to go to v.hope.net for the 5th hope.
[22:20.830 --> 22:25.510]  And it went somewhere else because somebody else grabbed the 5th hope.net or .org.
[22:25.870 --> 22:30.090]  And I, you know, I thought we had some kind of, you know, intrusion or something.
[22:30.090 --> 22:32.450]  I was a little concerned.
[22:33.030 --> 22:35.510]  Then I realized, no, we just hadn't done that yet.
[22:35.510 --> 22:38.510]  We hadn't made sure that everything rerouted locally.
[22:38.730 --> 22:42.630]  But had I not been looking for Kevin's talk, who knows how long that would have been there for.
[22:43.110 --> 22:48.410]  So, and that was the only one, too, of all the conferences, that was the only one that was misconfigured.
[22:48.530 --> 22:49.870]  Hey, that's actually pretty good.
[22:50.010 --> 22:50.250]  Yeah.
[22:52.150 --> 22:53.990]  But also should never have happened.
[22:54.190 --> 22:54.590]  That's true.
[22:54.850 --> 22:58.590]  We'll get after whoever was responsible for that.
[22:58.590 --> 23:06.630]  Similar to how Kevin was blamed for everything that went wrong, I hope he gets credit for everything that goes right in the future because he certainly deserves that.
[23:06.850 --> 23:07.370]  I like that.
[23:07.550 --> 23:14.810]  Something else, you know, we had a machine that we named after his grandmother years ago called Reba.
[23:15.990 --> 23:17.730]  She was just such an incredible woman.
[23:17.890 --> 23:24.030]  She was so inspirational and personified everything that we were talking about that he was going through.
[23:24.410 --> 23:32.850]  And I just think a great tribute would be if you have the ability to name a machine, name it Kevin or name it Mitnick or name it something like that.
[23:32.990 --> 23:35.390]  Just KDM, he was known as that.
[23:37.110 --> 23:45.850]  It's just a good tribute to have something named after, especially if it gets routed in email and things like that and you see it pop up everywhere.
[23:46.070 --> 23:53.210]  I didn't think you were going to mention the machine name just generally, but that's the kind of thing that we did.
[23:53.390 --> 23:59.730]  Reba's the most powerful machine we ever worked with too, still vital in some ways.
[24:00.010 --> 24:00.730]  I had like 20 hard drives.
[24:00.830 --> 24:01.990]  It was just, it was amazing.
[24:02.070 --> 24:02.870]  It was a workhorse.
[24:03.030 --> 24:07.490]  It does a lot to this day still in many ways.
[24:07.730 --> 24:08.390]  I didn't know we still had it.
[24:08.470 --> 24:08.630]  Okay.
[24:08.870 --> 24:09.350]  No, no.
[24:09.550 --> 24:17.110]  It is still involved in the production and we use it all the time.
[24:17.230 --> 24:20.210]  So those kinds of little things though are just for us.
[24:20.330 --> 24:21.810]  Like, who would get that?
[24:21.810 --> 24:30.230]  it would be something that you would mention to him or that, you know, when his grandmother, it was grandmother, right?
[24:30.510 --> 24:32.070]  Now I'm blanking, of course.
[24:32.750 --> 24:35.630]  When she passed, it was like immediate.
[24:35.630 --> 24:39.210]  We were in the middle of building that the first time it was built.
[24:39.370 --> 24:40.350]  It's been rebuilt a couple times.
[24:40.370 --> 24:41.310]  Yeah, it had to be named that.
[24:41.370 --> 24:41.570]  Absolutely.
[24:41.630 --> 24:43.290]  It's in a new whatever.
[24:43.290 --> 24:45.710]  We changed all kinds of things, enclosures, all that.
[24:45.830 --> 24:58.650]  But every time it stayed and it's the kind of thing only he would get or that we would remind ourselves and that anybody else saying, oh, we named this certain machine or they wouldn't really know why you'd have to explain the whole thing.
[24:58.770 --> 25:13.350]  But it was so intimate and it made so much sense to us at the time that he would have immediately understood the importance to us and that it was in her honor and in respect for his impact on what we do.
[25:13.590 --> 25:14.830]  So do that.
[25:14.970 --> 25:15.610]  Yes, please.
[25:15.990 --> 25:39.050]  Honor, name a machine, name a domain or a project, whatever you can, find ways to, at least for yourselves, to carry that on, to remember and to just give some little corner of your infrastructure to the memory of someone so powerful.
[25:39.370 --> 25:41.610]  And just know that he would laugh at that.
[25:41.810 --> 25:44.030]  He would approve most definitely.
[25:45.710 --> 25:47.270]  Okay, do we have any other phone calls?
[25:48.310 --> 25:48.670]  Yes.
[25:48.870 --> 25:49.130]  Oh, we do.
[25:49.270 --> 25:49.750]  I'm sorry.
[25:49.850 --> 25:51.470]  Someone's been on hold all that time.
[25:51.710 --> 25:52.570]  They're patiently waiting.
[25:52.570 --> 25:53.270]  I'm so sorry.
[25:53.430 --> 25:53.950]  Good evening.
[25:54.110 --> 25:55.070]  You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
[25:55.150 --> 25:55.370]  Go ahead.
[25:57.750 --> 25:58.510]  Hello, you there?
[25:58.750 --> 25:59.830]  I think I might have fallen asleep.
[26:00.270 --> 26:01.150]  Is anybody there?
[26:03.350 --> 26:03.710]  Caller?
[26:04.530 --> 26:05.250]  Caller, are you there?
[26:05.970 --> 26:06.590]  Yeah, sure.
[26:06.730 --> 26:07.450]  Ah, there you are.
[26:07.550 --> 26:07.790]  Okay.
[26:08.690 --> 26:09.710]  Where are you calling from?
[26:10.990 --> 26:11.650]  New York.
[26:12.130 --> 26:12.630]  New York.
[26:12.630 --> 26:13.310]  I've heard of it.
[26:14.250 --> 26:14.690]  No?
[26:17.410 --> 26:18.590]  I got you there.
[26:18.870 --> 26:20.450]  Is that funny, Alex?
[26:20.490 --> 26:24.210]  You just tie up a phone line and you're there on the screen as well?
[26:26.010 --> 26:29.770]  Callers, please know that the phone lines are open.
[26:30.270 --> 26:30.430]  Yeah.
[26:30.550 --> 26:30.690]  Yeah.
[26:30.950 --> 26:32.610]  I wasn't even on the phone line.
[26:32.710 --> 26:33.410]  I was just speaking.
[26:33.930 --> 26:34.990]  You can't tell it.
[26:35.150 --> 26:36.830]  Wait, so you're not on the phone?
[26:37.330 --> 26:37.670]  No.
[26:37.870 --> 26:38.330]  Oh, okay.
[26:39.650 --> 26:42.150]  I'm not as angry, but somebody is on the phone.
[26:43.110 --> 26:44.870]  Okay, so is anybody...
[26:44.870 --> 26:45.530]  I hear noises.
[26:45.790 --> 26:47.210]  Everybody else, please be quiet.
[26:47.890 --> 26:48.910]  Is anyone there?
[26:49.710 --> 26:50.610]  They're not hearing me.
[26:50.830 --> 26:51.070]  Yes.
[26:51.310 --> 26:52.690]  No, no, it's...
[26:52.690 --> 26:53.830]  That was me, yeah.
[26:54.350 --> 26:55.990]  All right, Alex, disconnect it.
[26:56.070 --> 26:57.170]  Cut his mic off.
[26:57.350 --> 26:58.450]  I want his mic cut.
[27:01.740 --> 27:03.360]  All right, so we're going to have to start over.
[27:03.960 --> 27:05.460]  802-321-4225.
[27:06.400 --> 27:09.840]  Apologies to the caller who might have been trying to speak, but we couldn't hear them.
[27:11.720 --> 27:13.560]  All right, 802-321-4225.
[27:15.380 --> 27:18.500]  Those kind of shenanigans, yeah, that's exactly the kind of thing Kevin would have done.
[27:18.720 --> 27:18.960]  I know.
[27:19.200 --> 27:19.820]  Yeah, exactly.
[27:20.480 --> 27:21.000]  Yeah.
[27:21.320 --> 27:23.840]  Well, now we know there's a weak spot here, right?
[27:23.840 --> 27:26.220]  So with your headphones, you can't tell.
[27:26.520 --> 27:29.900]  There's no different channel or sound for the...
[27:29.900 --> 27:33.680]  You just figured that out now that the board is...
[27:33.680 --> 27:38.120]  We can't tell what channel is being used for input?
[27:38.360 --> 27:38.480]  Yeah.
[27:38.480 --> 27:39.560]  How would you tell that?
[27:39.700 --> 27:40.640]  You need video for that.
[27:40.980 --> 27:43.680]  I have no idea, yeah, but I guess it all just sounds the same to you.
[27:44.680 --> 27:45.040]  So...
[27:45.040 --> 27:47.000]  Well, be that as it may, we have another call.
[27:47.340 --> 27:47.480]  Yeah.
[27:47.660 --> 27:47.920]  All right.
[27:48.380 --> 27:48.980]  And good evening.
[27:49.080 --> 27:49.900]  You're on Off The Gover Time.
[27:51.540 --> 27:52.160]  Good evening.
[27:52.560 --> 27:53.020]  How you doing?
[27:53.120 --> 27:53.620]  Where are you calling from?
[27:55.440 --> 27:56.520]  London, England.
[27:56.940 --> 27:58.000]  Oh, is this Zap?
[27:59.460 --> 28:01.100]  Yeah, it's me.
[28:01.860 --> 28:05.180]  You know, it's a little sad that we know if it's calling...
[28:05.180 --> 28:09.700]  If it's a call from London, it's Zap because nobody else in London would call us.
[28:10.020 --> 28:11.660]  But we're glad that you're on the phone.
[28:13.100 --> 28:14.920]  Well, it is 1.30 in the morning.
[28:15.120 --> 28:16.440]  Most people are working tomorrow.
[28:17.060 --> 28:19.180]  Well, yeah, some people are working now.
[28:19.320 --> 28:21.060]  They could call us in the middle of their work day.
[28:22.780 --> 28:23.540]  Yeah, true.
[28:24.120 --> 28:25.920]  But I'm finding out because of Kevin.
[28:26.460 --> 28:27.380]  Of course, yes.
[28:29.420 --> 28:30.300]  Sad times.
[28:31.040 --> 28:31.920]  It's really...
[28:31.920 --> 28:33.440]  Everyone, I suppose, is really bad.
[28:35.380 --> 28:38.380]  He was, you know, quite a force in the hacking community.
[28:39.340 --> 28:43.120]  But I just want to recall one of the memories or a couple of memories I have of Kevin.
[28:44.500 --> 28:50.660]  First time I spoke to Kevin was in 1997 when he was in prison.
[28:51.700 --> 28:54.980]  And I think you were the one that passed me your cellular phone.
[28:56.480 --> 29:10.540]  And he was asking some questions because I know Tom, T-0-R-M, had said some things to him and gave him a lot of promises which unfortunately, Tom being the person he was, those promises were not going to happen.
[29:10.760 --> 29:18.820]  And that was the first time I spoke to Kevin and started to tell him the truth and laid down on the line that Tom wasn't going to deliver what he'd promised.
[29:19.360 --> 29:21.740]  So that's one of the memories I have.
[29:23.060 --> 29:24.080]  Yeah, 1997.
[29:26.800 --> 29:27.200]  Wow.
[29:28.420 --> 29:30.240]  Well, you said more than just that, I hope.
[29:32.500 --> 29:39.520]  Well, I spoke to Kevin but it's difficult when he's signing from prison because he's going to be on a limited time and it's just a matter of getting the information he wanted.
[29:39.920 --> 29:40.160]  Right.
[29:40.160 --> 29:42.020]  It wasn't really a social call.
[29:42.300 --> 29:45.700]  It's more like a business call trying to give him the help that I could give him.
[29:47.080 --> 29:49.200]  But there's some memories that come with that.
[29:49.340 --> 29:59.840]  I mean, I remember all the demonstrations all around the world when we were demonstrating outside the American embassies and I think, you know, there was all the ones done.
[30:00.060 --> 30:01.420]  There was one in Russia that I remember.
[30:01.980 --> 30:03.880]  There was one in London that I organized.
[30:04.520 --> 30:06.740]  So we had a representation in London.
[30:09.100 --> 30:12.120]  But, yeah, it's just a bit of a shock.
[30:13.280 --> 30:14.360]  Yeah, definitely.
[30:16.900 --> 30:18.660]  But you were saying about naming computers.
[30:19.820 --> 30:22.280]  I don't think anyone's mentioned one of these handles.
[30:22.460 --> 30:23.220]  I think it was Condor.
[30:23.680 --> 30:24.280]  That's right.
[30:24.420 --> 30:27.760]  Condor was from the movie, right?
[30:28.740 --> 30:28.920]  Yeah.
[30:29.280 --> 30:29.440]  Yep.
[30:29.840 --> 30:30.760]  Three days of the Condor.
[30:30.920 --> 30:31.720]  Three days of the Condor.
[30:32.740 --> 30:34.000]  Robert Redford, I believe.
[30:34.420 --> 30:40.000]  There's actually a little scene in there with the telephones and I can understand why Kevin chose that as a handle.
[30:40.180 --> 30:40.840]  It's a pretty good movie.
[30:41.000 --> 30:41.640]  It's one of my favorites.
[30:42.460 --> 30:43.440]  It's a great movie.
[30:44.880 --> 30:45.280]  Yeah.
[30:46.480 --> 30:48.680]  I think I saw Kevin finally.
[30:48.680 --> 30:49.700]  I never saw him at Hope.
[30:49.860 --> 30:54.260]  I've been to about two and a half Hopes in England.
[30:54.260 --> 30:58.060]  He was actually a keynote speaker for one of the shows that I went to, a trade show.
[30:58.460 --> 31:01.320]  And I finally got to speak to Kevin and met him.
[31:01.520 --> 31:02.880]  And I reminded him about the phone call.
[31:03.000 --> 31:05.600]  He didn't remember and he did say it was like 20 years ago.
[31:07.400 --> 31:09.700]  So, yeah, so I did actually meet the guy.
[31:09.860 --> 31:11.280]  So I was quite happy about that.
[31:11.740 --> 31:12.820]  I'm glad you got to meet him.
[31:14.160 --> 31:18.300]  I was going to say, wearing my 2600 hat that I always wear when I go to these trade shows.
[31:18.620 --> 31:20.480]  In fact, that's how I met Alex, the lawyer.
[31:21.040 --> 31:22.160]  I don't know if he recalls.
[31:22.820 --> 31:23.460]  That's right.
[31:23.700 --> 31:25.140]  Yeah, of course I do.
[31:25.220 --> 31:31.260]  That was at the, it was like the information security conference, Europe.
[31:32.040 --> 31:34.060]  Might have been at the Olympia or something.
[31:34.200 --> 31:36.120]  It was at some giant convention center, wasn't it?
[31:37.440 --> 31:39.380]  I can't, I think it was at the Excel center.
[31:39.540 --> 31:40.140]  I'm not too sure.
[31:40.260 --> 31:41.800]  All the shows were running to one another.
[31:42.460 --> 31:55.680]  I can't remember if it was IP Expo or, I think it might have been IPXO in October, but I remember you said cool hat and I was talking about 2600 and that's when I said there's one in London, there's a meeting in London and he was like, how did I not know this?
[31:56.140 --> 31:58.180]  And then he started turning up while you were over here.
[31:59.300 --> 32:01.800]  Yeah, that's exactly right.
[32:02.020 --> 32:03.140]  That is exactly right.
[32:03.300 --> 32:08.180]  I think this is actually the kind of stuff that I talk about in the latest issue, isn't it?
[32:08.240 --> 32:10.000]  In my article.
[32:10.620 --> 32:12.880]  So, yeah, you should pick it up and read it.
[32:13.180 --> 32:14.060]  It's pretty funny.
[32:15.680 --> 32:18.440]  Okay, I'll try and look out for that when the issue comes through.
[32:19.280 --> 32:19.600]  Yeah.
[32:21.120 --> 32:22.880]  That's all the memories I've got really of Kevin.
[32:25.180 --> 32:26.120]  Can't really think of it.
[32:26.260 --> 32:31.360]  I mean, he was very limited because being in the UK, I was just lucky to meet him when he came over.
[32:31.500 --> 32:35.520]  It's a shame that he died so young and to be an expectant father as well.
[32:35.660 --> 32:36.800]  I believe he's got a son on the way.
[32:37.040 --> 32:39.080]  So, it's like, it's difficult.
[32:39.540 --> 32:40.500]  Is it a son?
[32:40.640 --> 32:42.440]  Do they know if it's a son or a daughter?
[32:42.520 --> 32:42.880]  I didn't know that.
[32:43.060 --> 32:46.560]  I believe I read it on Twitter but don't hold me today.
[32:46.680 --> 32:47.940]  You've got a 50-50 chance.
[32:49.360 --> 32:53.900]  But I believe he's expecting a son which he'll never meet which is a shame.
[32:53.900 --> 32:54.360]  I know.
[32:54.540 --> 33:04.340]  It's just, it's such a tragedy on that level alone but also there's something happy about that too because a part of Kevin will live on.
[33:05.740 --> 33:07.380]  Yeah, the legacy will go on.
[33:08.040 --> 33:12.680]  I'm thinking about the first time I heard of Kevin I think was in that terrible book called Cyberpunk.
[33:13.600 --> 33:14.660]  Cyberpunk, yes.
[33:15.000 --> 33:20.280]  Which John Markoff was also involved in and his ex-wife Katie Hefner.
[33:21.560 --> 33:25.900]  Yeah, I think that's the first time I read about Kevin Mitnick and his antics when he was younger.
[33:26.720 --> 33:28.260]  Didn't put a very good light on it.
[33:28.940 --> 33:32.220]  Heard more things through 2600 the magazine which was better.
[33:33.060 --> 33:35.220]  I actually watched Freedom Downtime again.
[33:35.380 --> 33:36.560]  I think that's something you have to do.
[33:37.660 --> 33:40.240]  It's just watch Freedom Downtime if you haven't seen it already.
[33:40.240 --> 33:43.700]  go find it on YouTube or something.
[33:45.500 --> 33:57.900]  But yeah, I think at the next meeting which will be the August meeting now I think we'll get the group the guys and the girls to raise a glass to Kevin as we always do when one of us has fallen.
[33:59.360 --> 34:01.040]  That's a very good sentiment.
[34:01.280 --> 34:03.140]  I do appreciate that.
[34:03.240 --> 34:04.180]  I'm very inspired by that.
[34:05.500 --> 34:05.980]  Yeah.
[34:06.700 --> 34:09.680]  Actually, can I just ask are any of you guys going to DEF CON?
[34:11.200 --> 34:14.910]  I am not because I've got all kinds of work to do.
[34:15.040 --> 34:17.080]  I went to Alaska and that took a lot out of me.
[34:17.240 --> 34:21.100]  But Alex, your finger is raised so I guess that means...
[34:21.100 --> 34:23.520]  Yeah, I'll be going to DEF CON.
[34:23.760 --> 34:25.120]  I'll be there for a couple of days.
[34:25.660 --> 34:27.320]  Are you heading over that way, sir?
[34:28.870 --> 34:34.580]  No, I've never been to DEF CON which surprises a lot of people because I've been in this game for many and many a year.
[34:35.600 --> 34:42.520]  I try to stay loyal and go to Hope and I've only been to like two and a half or three and a half How do you go to a half Hope?
[34:42.830 --> 34:43.850]  How do you go to a half Hope?
[34:44.040 --> 34:45.730]  Well, it's a virtual Hope.
[34:46.060 --> 34:46.770]  Oh, okay.
[34:46.850 --> 34:47.560]  It's a virtual Hope.
[34:47.750 --> 34:48.080]  Okay.
[34:48.200 --> 34:50.200]  So I classify those as a half, you know.
[34:50.370 --> 34:53.020]  I haven't been back since about 2000, unfortunately.
[34:53.330 --> 34:53.660]  Uh-huh.
[34:53.660 --> 34:56.890]  Um, I'm due back at some point if I ever get a passport.
[34:57.580 --> 35:02.080]  Um, but yeah, I should sort of, uh, go along to one of these DEF CONs.
[35:02.200 --> 35:04.390]  It's on my bucket list so hopefully I'll go one day.
[35:04.680 --> 35:09.230]  Yeah, you should do it before Las Vegas melts completely because, what, it's 120 degrees now?
[35:09.310 --> 35:09.960]  It's insane.
[35:09.960 --> 35:13.620]  I know, I actually saw something on Euronews yesterday.
[35:14.000 --> 35:15.520]  Uh, I thought I misheard.
[35:15.620 --> 35:19.450]  I thought they said that the planet is hotter than it's been in 120 years.
[35:19.640 --> 35:22.430]  No, they said in 120,000 years.
[35:23.120 --> 35:27.580]  The planet is hotter than it has ever been throughout all of humankind.
[35:28.370 --> 35:29.080]  Think about that.
[35:29.580 --> 35:32.040]  I mean, I just, I can't even wrap my head around that.
[35:32.620 --> 35:32.850]  Yeah.
[35:33.310 --> 35:33.980]  It's crazy.
[35:35.980 --> 35:37.000]  And it's our fault, too.
[35:37.390 --> 35:39.080]  If I didn't make that clear, it's our fault.
[35:39.290 --> 35:42.540]  So, it's, you know, we're messing the whole place up.
[35:42.640 --> 35:52.500]  And if people are standing in the way and saying, oh, you know what, I'm not going to do anything and climate change be damned, treat them as if they're condemning the entire human race to oblivion.
[35:52.770 --> 35:53.700]  You know, just do that.
[35:53.790 --> 35:55.040]  That might change their attitude a little.
[35:57.100 --> 35:57.460]  Yeah.
[35:58.680 --> 36:00.330]  Sorry, I didn't mean to get off on that.
[36:01.750 --> 36:03.960]  I'm going to get off the line and let somebody else phone in.
[36:04.040 --> 36:05.140]  Hopefully, they'll talk about Kevin.
[36:05.410 --> 36:06.750]  So, Rebel, please don't phone again.
[36:07.280 --> 36:09.000]  He talked about Kevin a little bit.
[36:10.660 --> 36:13.540]  Yeah, but Rebel's famous for phoning up all the time.
[36:13.680 --> 36:17.790]  And then he's, I mean, while he was doing that FedEx thing, you had dead air on YouTube.
[36:17.790 --> 36:19.080]  I don't know what was going on there.
[36:19.290 --> 36:20.520]  Well, that's what he asked us to do.
[36:20.600 --> 36:23.040]  He asked us to not say anything, so we were respecting that.
[36:23.140 --> 36:29.390]  But I realized after a while, I had an opportunity to divert his package if I said the right things to the computer.
[36:29.660 --> 36:31.390]  But I didn't talk fast enough.
[36:33.100 --> 36:39.040]  Well, with any luck, somebody would do that because that's the shenanigans that Kevin would love to muck around with.
[36:39.290 --> 36:39.730]  Absolutely.
[36:40.180 --> 36:40.730]  It's a practical joke.
[36:40.930 --> 36:41.370]  Absolutely.
[36:41.500 --> 36:42.660]  Which I like doing myself.
[36:43.080 --> 36:44.250]  It's harmless fun.
[36:45.480 --> 36:45.930]  Maybe...
[36:45.930 --> 36:46.830]  As long as it's not malicious.
[36:47.310 --> 36:48.870]  Yeah, Zap, maybe that's what we can do.
[36:50.200 --> 36:54.140]  Embarking as many harmless pranks as you possibly can in the name of Kevin.
[36:54.270 --> 36:55.520]  I think he would appreciate that.
[36:57.080 --> 37:03.020]  I don't know if my fellow crew from London 2600 would appreciate it because I tend to get the near to getting arrested sometimes.
[37:03.750 --> 37:06.180]  It's just shenanigans, you know, mischief.
[37:07.330 --> 37:11.640]  But yeah, we're still suffering from Master Vic's passing, to be honest with you.
[37:11.770 --> 37:12.750]  We're still not feeling it.
[37:12.950 --> 37:14.520]  It's like the heart's been ripped out.
[37:14.870 --> 37:15.180]  Yeah.
[37:15.830 --> 37:17.460]  So we've got a few things to do.
[37:17.640 --> 37:18.910]  So yeah, not a very good year.
[37:19.870 --> 37:21.830]  But you know, so that's the way he's life.
[37:22.560 --> 37:23.200]  That's true.
[37:23.370 --> 37:23.790]  That's true.
[37:24.500 --> 37:24.960]  All right.
[37:25.060 --> 37:26.410]  Well, Zapp, it's always great hearing from you.
[37:26.700 --> 37:27.750]  And please be well.
[37:27.830 --> 37:28.750]  I'll be in touch.
[37:28.890 --> 37:30.080]  Well, we'll see you at some point.
[37:30.480 --> 37:31.230]  Thanks for calling.
[37:31.520 --> 37:31.890]  Hopefully.
[37:32.290 --> 37:32.520]  All right.
[37:32.600 --> 37:32.890]  Take care.
[37:33.040 --> 37:33.180]  Bye.
[37:33.390 --> 37:33.700]  Bye-bye.
[37:35.310 --> 37:36.390]  That's Zapp from London.
[37:37.300 --> 37:42.560]  You know, I forgot until he reminded me that that's how we met.
[37:42.790 --> 37:48.270]  Literally, he was walking past me in a conference center wearing a 2600 hat.
[37:48.720 --> 37:49.680]  I stopped him.
[37:49.790 --> 37:53.960]  You know, I should have written about that anecdote in the article this month.
[37:54.100 --> 37:58.770]  And Zapp, I'm sorry I didn't recall it to put it in there, but it would have totally fit.
[37:58.960 --> 38:01.310]  When you read it, you know what I'll mean.
[38:01.480 --> 38:05.640]  Well, you didn't recall it, but we can recall all the issues and print it again.
[38:06.040 --> 38:06.680]  You could do that.
[38:06.730 --> 38:07.730]  And get it right this time.
[38:07.730 --> 38:08.310]  That would be nice.
[38:08.700 --> 38:09.580]  You wouldn't mind?
[38:10.290 --> 38:12.390]  No, it's part of the publishing game.
[38:12.450 --> 38:12.960]  You can do that.
[38:13.330 --> 38:15.450]  By the way, we didn't mention this on the radio.
[38:15.560 --> 38:16.390]  We probably should have.
[38:16.520 --> 38:24.060]  It was so bad at self-promotion, but now you can get 2,600 PDF subscription and Kindle subscription directly from us.
[38:24.200 --> 38:25.620]  In other words, you don't need Amazon anymore.
[38:25.850 --> 38:28.700]  We'll talk more about that on the radio, though, in a future time.
[38:28.830 --> 38:30.350]  But that was a lot of work, too.
[38:30.700 --> 38:33.460]  That was part of what we were doing up in Yukon and all.
[38:34.060 --> 38:35.660]  So there's that.
[38:35.910 --> 38:39.830]  And, you know, Alex, though, wouldn't you have met Zapp at Beyond Hope?
[38:39.950 --> 38:41.040]  Because that was 1997.
[38:41.910 --> 38:46.310]  And you were pretty much an active hacker then.
[38:46.640 --> 38:47.980]  And he was at that conference.
[38:49.260 --> 38:50.950]  Yeah, I don't think I met him, though.
[38:51.180 --> 38:51.350]  Huh.
[38:51.730 --> 38:53.480]  I don't think that I did.
[38:55.330 --> 39:02.020]  Well, add that to your list of regrets, because it was so much fun hanging out with the Brits when they came over in 1997.
[39:02.390 --> 39:03.460]  I'll never forget that.
[39:04.750 --> 39:05.600]  Of course.
[39:06.000 --> 39:07.060]  Do we have a call?
[39:07.450 --> 39:08.180]  I think we do.
[39:08.370 --> 39:08.870]  Do we have a call?
[39:09.690 --> 39:10.250]  Yes.
[39:10.520 --> 39:10.680]  Okay.
[39:11.250 --> 39:11.810]  And good evening.
[39:11.930 --> 39:12.660]  You're on Off Talk Overtime.
[39:12.750 --> 39:12.950]  Go ahead.
[39:14.270 --> 39:15.390]  Hello, everyone.
[39:15.410 --> 39:16.830]  This is Johnny Fusion.
[39:17.200 --> 39:18.290]  Hey, Johnny Fusion.
[39:18.330 --> 39:18.850]  How are you doing?
[39:19.930 --> 39:21.450]  I'm doing really great.
[39:21.450 --> 39:27.960]  I'm finally living somewhat independently, no longer in the medical facility.
[39:28.350 --> 39:29.160]  That's awesome.
[39:29.330 --> 39:29.960]  Living life.
[39:29.960 --> 39:30.580]  Okay.
[39:30.580 --> 39:32.930]  Well, it's good to hear some good news for a change.
[39:34.630 --> 39:35.270]  Yeah.
[39:37.650 --> 39:48.870]  I never met Kevin, but, like, I followed him from afar, and a lot of the times I felt, but for the grace of the gods go I, right?
[39:48.870 --> 40:08.640]  Because a lot of the stuff that he was accused of doing, I did for fun, but I never got caught, you know, either because of good OPSEC or just dumb luck is what I really think it was, you know?
[40:08.870 --> 40:17.460]  And Kevin kind of, I feel, took the heat for hackers like me and hackers all over the country.
[40:17.680 --> 40:20.660]  Are you familiar with the concept of a whipping boy?
[40:21.430 --> 40:30.850]  I've heard that phrase in many contexts, but, yeah, I think, I think Kevin was unjustly treated and blamed for a lot of things.
[40:30.950 --> 40:41.120]  As you say, many of us did, whether it's making free phone calls or, you know, accessing computers we're not supposed to access or just not obeying when we're supposed to obey.
[40:41.460 --> 40:53.620]  You know, if you piss off the wrong people and they make it their life's mission to make you suffer, yeah, you're going to feel that, unfortunately.
[40:54.040 --> 40:57.160]  And that's what I feel happened to Kevin.
[40:57.290 --> 41:09.290]  And a great deal of that was, as our friend Greg said, due to the New York Times, due to what they did, due to how they escalated the story and put him on the front page and made him, you know, target number one.
[41:09.540 --> 41:12.290]  So the FBI pretty much had to make that a priority.
[41:13.660 --> 41:14.060]  Right.
[41:14.080 --> 41:24.370]  And really, just to enrich Markov's career, you know, he found something he could write about and sensationalize and make a name for himself.
[41:24.620 --> 41:33.890]  And I really feel that it was Markov's pursuit of a story he could sell.
[41:33.890 --> 41:45.540]  And he did sell it all over the place that made Kevin infamous instead of just another merry prankster with technical acumen.
[41:47.890 --> 41:49.930]  Yeah, I can't disagree with that.
[41:50.100 --> 41:52.310]  It certainly had that effect.
[41:52.850 --> 41:58.080]  And when you consider, you know, as somebody who writes for a newspaper, there are so many stories.
[41:58.230 --> 41:59.870]  You don't really need that.
[41:59.980 --> 42:08.620]  You don't really need to cash in and tell this story that's going to make a movie out of it and all that, especially if it's about a human being.
[42:08.750 --> 42:13.890]  You know, your job is to tell the story and be accurate and not be a part of the story yourself.
[42:15.540 --> 42:19.600]  Yeah, I mean, he was there when Kevin got apprehended.
[42:20.310 --> 42:22.560]  Yeah, he even said in court, I wish you luck, Kevin.
[42:24.480 --> 42:27.910]  Kevin heard that and could not believe that he would say that.
[42:28.040 --> 42:30.430]  But yeah, that was definitely something.
[42:31.890 --> 42:38.870]  Yeah, and I think, I really think that Markov kind of made him a symbol for all hackerdom.
[42:38.870 --> 42:53.600]  you know, it's like the mythology of him being this art hacker and if you punish Kevin and you're punishing the community by proxy.
[42:57.650 --> 42:58.750]  Mm-hmm.
[42:59.490 --> 43:19.210]  I remember going to the Stockton Public Library the day after that New York Times article came out and going there and getting the library copies of the New York Times because, you know, there weren't websites back then.
[43:20.270 --> 43:22.270]  Well, there were, but they were very primitive.
[43:22.590 --> 43:22.710]  Right.
[43:23.650 --> 43:25.790]  You know, newspapers weren't online.
[43:26.450 --> 43:34.410]  And sitting there in the library reading this sensationalist piece in the New York Times.
[43:36.030 --> 43:49.470]  You know, far, you know, right near the card catalogs that I, you know, they were just terminals but I figured out a way to hack them and tell that out to other places from the public library.
[43:50.130 --> 43:50.950]  You know?
[43:53.510 --> 43:54.030]  And
[43:57.610 --> 44:02.870]  yeah, you know, it was something like the last caller said, I did read that book Cyberpunk.
[44:03.910 --> 44:04.570]  Mm-hmm.
[44:04.610 --> 44:04.990]  You know?
[44:06.110 --> 44:20.390]  As a young person who was, you know, just into hacking and I came very close to meeting Kevin, actually.
[44:21.470 --> 44:26.550]  Because you know how you said how you wish when he called that he was out of the country?
[44:27.150 --> 44:27.310]  Right.
[44:29.230 --> 44:49.090]  When I landed in Amsterdam in 1995 and made friends with the hackers there that did Hack-Tic and XS4ALL, Rop told me that before he got caught, they were planning for him to escape to Amsterdam.
[44:49.630 --> 44:58.350]  And were he not apprehended, we would have been there in the same time with the same circle couple of friends, you know?
[44:59.690 --> 45:02.190]  But fate didn't have that in mind.
[45:02.490 --> 45:05.150]  Well, I don't think he would have really done that.
[45:05.270 --> 45:08.490]  I think he would have wanted to stay in his home country.
[45:08.490 --> 45:11.770]  He wouldn't want to leave his family even though he was still on the run.
[45:12.590 --> 45:21.250]  Making that change where maybe you can never go back again a la Snowden or something, I don't think he would have been comfortable doing that.
[45:21.410 --> 45:23.030]  That's just my personal observation.
[45:24.770 --> 45:28.850]  Yeah, maybe it was just one possibility he was thinking.
[45:28.850 --> 45:31.170]  I don't know, but that's what I was told.
[45:31.670 --> 45:34.130]  I know that was what they wanted to do.
[45:34.210 --> 45:35.750]  That's what a lot of us wanted him to do.
[45:36.210 --> 45:39.530]  But I don't think he would have ever actually left.
[45:39.810 --> 45:40.470]  Rob, did you have something?
[45:41.190 --> 45:53.790]  Yeah, I think that just speaks to the esteem that the community has held him in where he had people across the world willing to wrangle that sort of thing for him had he chose to go through with it.
[45:59.910 --> 46:03.670]  Yeah, so, well, that's about it this week.
[46:03.830 --> 46:18.070]  I got other stuff like, you know, because when I went to Amsterdam, I met Bill Squire, Bill SF, and how he hacked BART, and now I ride BART every week.
[46:18.830 --> 46:21.770]  And I don't think it's hackable anymore.
[46:23.270 --> 46:25.690]  Oh, everything's hackable, but maybe in a different way.
[46:25.850 --> 46:26.270]  I don't know.
[46:27.050 --> 46:29.130]  I'm not going to get involved in that.
[46:31.290 --> 46:44.650]  Yeah, but thank you, and thank you for the lovely tribute, and I'll probably be going to my first 2600 meeting on next Friday.
[46:44.930 --> 46:47.030]  You mean you've never gone to a 2600 meeting?
[46:48.310 --> 46:52.090]  I've never lived anywhere where they were really close by.
[46:52.150 --> 46:54.390]  Okay, that's great then.
[46:54.390 --> 46:56.790]  I hope you have a great time.
[46:57.630 --> 47:02.270]  And for those who don't know, they take place the first Friday of every month in various cities.
[47:02.270 --> 47:05.210]  Go to 2600.com slash meetings, you'll get a full listing.
[47:05.570 --> 47:08.210]  And you can start your own if you want to start one.
[47:08.390 --> 47:11.030]  There's a list of guidelines on how to do that.
[47:14.090 --> 47:20.410]  But I'll let you guys go now and thank you again for the lovely tribute to Kevin.
[47:20.890 --> 47:24.570]  And I'm very sorry that you lost your friend.
[47:24.890 --> 47:25.630]  Thank you.
[47:26.690 --> 47:27.330]  Thanks.
[47:27.850 --> 47:28.470]  You be well.
[47:29.750 --> 47:30.710]  I will.
[47:31.790 --> 47:32.130]  Take care.
[47:33.330 --> 47:34.430]  Nice calls tonight.
[47:34.730 --> 47:36.670]  Really very touched by them.
[47:36.850 --> 47:37.350]  Yeah, heartfelt.
[47:37.770 --> 47:40.650]  And we just were right there with you.
[47:41.650 --> 47:44.110]  might have time for one more if it comes quickly.
[47:44.470 --> 47:46.290]  802-321-4225.
[47:46.450 --> 47:47.590]  802-321-HACK.
[47:48.330 --> 47:49.530]  Looks like you have something to say, Rob?
[47:50.690 --> 47:59.710]  Yeah, while we're waiting for a call, I was thinking a lot lately about the last time I saw Kevin, which is the last time he came to the studio to do this program with us.
[47:59.830 --> 48:06.850]  It was March 1st, 2017, and he had a new book out, The Art of Invisibility, and he came down.
[48:06.950 --> 48:07.890]  We were doing a fundraiser.
[48:07.970 --> 48:12.410]  He was kind enough to donate many copies of his book as premiums.
[48:13.870 --> 48:17.430]  And, yeah, he was there in the studio with all of us.
[48:18.990 --> 48:21.130]  And it was, you know, it's a good episode.
[48:21.290 --> 48:22.390]  You can go back and listen to it.
[48:22.750 --> 48:25.730]  But, also, it was a good hang.
[48:26.210 --> 48:27.590]  Afterward, we all went out to dinner.
[48:28.070 --> 48:30.590]  He was kind enough to pick up the check for all of us, that I remember.
[48:30.790 --> 48:31.190]  Oh, wow.
[48:32.010 --> 48:37.990]  And, yeah, I didn't realize how long it had been until I went back and looked up the episode.
[48:38.330 --> 48:43.570]  But, yeah, it is mind-blowing that he's not there anymore.
[48:43.870 --> 48:47.310]  And, you know, he will be terribly missed.
[48:47.470 --> 48:48.770]  Terribly missed by very many.
[48:49.290 --> 48:53.210]  He's not there in the sense that we knew him as being there.
[48:53.370 --> 48:58.370]  But, he is very much there as far as how we think of him, how we remember him.
[48:58.950 --> 49:07.410]  I think, you know, we'll continue to feel his effects on our lives every day.
[49:07.630 --> 49:09.310]  I think it changes us.
[49:09.950 --> 49:17.270]  So, I hope that's what we get out of all this, that nobody has ever completely gone.
[49:17.790 --> 49:20.410]  You know, they live on in one way or another.
[49:21.450 --> 49:24.090]  What studio were we in that last time?
[49:24.390 --> 49:25.470]  We were in Brooklyn.
[49:25.690 --> 49:30.410]  We were in Brooklyn where we would be now had we not started doing this from home.
[49:30.650 --> 49:30.910]  Okay.
[49:31.130 --> 49:31.470]  All right.
[49:31.810 --> 49:32.290]  Interesting.
[49:32.890 --> 49:33.410]  Yeah.
[49:34.690 --> 49:34.990]  Wow.
[49:35.090 --> 49:37.970]  So, we haven't been in Harlem since before 2017.
[49:38.210 --> 49:40.270]  That's hard to believe.
[49:41.430 --> 49:44.590]  Yeah, I think it was 2016 we finished in Harlem.
[49:44.750 --> 49:44.970]  Okay.
[49:45.330 --> 49:45.990]  Off the top of my head.
[49:48.890 --> 49:50.490]  Doesn't seem like that long ago.
[49:50.630 --> 49:53.230]  Yeah, time is something I'm having trouble with lately.
[49:53.590 --> 49:55.190]  It just seems to be out of control.
[49:55.610 --> 50:01.450]  Recall that it wasn't completed as far as the studio that we would recognize today.
[50:01.450 --> 50:06.350]  we didn't move into the big studio, but it was in Brooklyn at that time, so that is something.
[50:06.530 --> 50:09.630]  It took several years for it to be built out the way it is now.
[50:09.990 --> 50:10.210]  Yeah.
[50:10.790 --> 50:21.730]  I remember the excerpt we played earlier, the February of 1995, we were on 8th Avenue then, 505 8th Avenue was where the radio station was, right by Penn Station.
[50:22.310 --> 50:28.950]  And I just remember doing that show and a bunch of us went out and got New York Times.
[50:29.110 --> 50:30.910]  The New York Times was out by the time our show was over.
[50:31.190 --> 50:36.130]  And we just spent an hour or two in the station reading that article, that front page article.
[50:36.150 --> 50:49.650]  It was just so much crap that came out that was basically condemning Kevin to basically be thought of as this monster criminal.
[50:49.950 --> 50:52.170]  It was unfair.
[50:53.910 --> 50:55.870]  And I remember listening to that episode live.
[50:56.330 --> 50:56.630]  Wow.
[50:58.570 --> 50:59.190]  There's something.
[50:59.550 --> 50:59.690]  All right.
[50:59.730 --> 50:59.970]  You know what?
[50:59.990 --> 51:00.950]  I think we're done with calls.
[51:01.250 --> 51:02.150]  Yeah, there are no more calls.
[51:02.230 --> 51:02.470]  All right.
[51:02.570 --> 51:03.050]  That's fine.
[51:03.190 --> 51:03.670]  That's fine.
[51:03.930 --> 51:05.830]  I want to thank everybody for listening.
[51:06.030 --> 51:07.570]  It looks like Alex you have something to say.
[51:08.610 --> 51:11.170]  Yeah, before we start, I just wanted to take a poll here.
[51:13.110 --> 51:22.870]  Who around the room, I guess, or the screen here, thinks that Emmanuel, his voice has gotten a lot deeper over the decades?
[51:23.470 --> 51:26.230]  You sounded like your voice to me sounded a lot higher.
[51:26.770 --> 51:29.530]  Do you want me to play your voice from 1995?
[51:31.250 --> 51:32.710]  Because I can do that.
[51:33.270 --> 51:34.810]  I can do that, Alex.
[51:35.090 --> 51:35.730]  That's true.
[51:35.890 --> 51:36.970]  I'm sure you can dig it up.
[51:37.050 --> 51:43.310]  There are many judges and fellow lawyers who would gather around the radio and be highly entertained for many an hour.
[51:43.710 --> 51:44.810]  So I'm sure.
[51:45.390 --> 51:46.290]  I am sure.
[51:46.510 --> 51:49.230]  Proceed with caution as you are told in court, I believe.
[51:49.930 --> 51:50.130]  Yeah.
[51:52.530 --> 51:56.030]  It's crazy to think that that is definitely out there, isn't it.
[51:56.370 --> 51:56.550]  Uh-huh.
[51:56.730 --> 51:56.910]  Uh-huh.
[51:57.410 --> 51:57.790]  Yeah.
[51:58.090 --> 52:00.750]  I think we all sounded younger 29 years ago.
[52:01.290 --> 52:01.550]  Yeah.
[52:02.250 --> 52:08.930]  It is amazing though, but you don't think of your voice changing after puberty, I guess, but it does.
[52:09.510 --> 52:09.870]  Yeah.
[52:10.070 --> 52:11.130]  Things happen to voices.
[52:11.530 --> 52:12.050]  Yeah.
[52:12.050 --> 52:24.050]  They get raspy, you know, and the thinking behind it sometimes changes as well, you know, it becomes more conservative perhaps, or slower, or faster.
[52:24.270 --> 52:24.650]  I don't know.
[52:24.910 --> 52:25.410]  People change.
[52:26.010 --> 52:27.850]  Definitely your case, more conservative.
[52:28.170 --> 52:28.510]  All right.
[52:28.610 --> 52:31.790]  You know, it's time that we clamp down on those people.
[52:32.530 --> 52:33.610]  Yeah, those people.
[52:33.910 --> 52:34.290]  Exactly.
[52:34.810 --> 52:36.050]  You know who I'm talking about.
[52:36.050 --> 52:37.830]  It seemed like a true Republican.
[52:38.310 --> 52:38.610]  I know.
[52:38.930 --> 52:41.170]  Except I'm talking about Republicans, so, yeah.
[52:41.450 --> 52:49.210]  Oh, just, I'm just thankful that nobody was talking about you-know-who on the show today and the hearing and all that nonsense.
[52:50.810 --> 52:51.570]  Hunter Biden.
[52:52.570 --> 52:56.870]  Well, thanks for ruining it after almost making it, but...
[52:56.870 --> 53:00.730]  Well, you were giving me a strange look, like, you know, you didn't know what I was talking about.
[53:00.870 --> 53:02.350]  I wasn't even looking at you.
[53:02.410 --> 53:03.510]  I was looking across the room.
[53:03.670 --> 53:05.470]  I thought you were talking about the UAP hearing.
[53:06.570 --> 53:07.490]  Yeah, UFO...
[53:07.490 --> 53:09.450]  Why did they rename UFOs?
[53:09.450 --> 53:10.170]  For God's sake!
[53:11.470 --> 53:15.430]  That's part of some kind of plot, I think, to keep UFOs, like, secret.
[53:15.730 --> 53:17.010]  Like, call them something else.
[53:18.490 --> 53:19.530]  So what is it now?
[53:19.830 --> 53:21.630]  Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon?
[53:21.710 --> 53:22.430]  Is that what it is?
[53:23.430 --> 53:23.890]  Yes.
[53:25.310 --> 53:27.350]  Because UFO was wrong somehow?
[53:28.590 --> 53:29.770]  Unidentified flying?
[53:30.250 --> 53:31.370]  It had to use...
[53:31.370 --> 53:31.970]  I don't know.
[53:32.050 --> 53:33.510]  Are they walking objects now?
[53:33.590 --> 53:35.710]  I mean, are they in the air or not?
[53:35.710 --> 53:36.350]  Where are they?
[53:36.910 --> 53:51.990]  It's just that they wanted to broaden it so that it wasn't specifically aeronautical vehicles, because some of this stuff is theorized to be not necessarily spacecraft or a flying vehicle.
[53:52.210 --> 53:54.730]  Some of it is stuff that's capable of being submerged.
[53:54.950 --> 53:57.990]  And so they want all the domains of space and water.
[53:58.170 --> 53:59.150]  Unidentified boats?
[53:59.690 --> 54:03.450]  Unidentified anything in any matter, air or water.
[54:03.450 --> 54:06.790]  So they just broadened it.
[54:07.170 --> 54:17.750]  And it's actually really fascinating because this whistleblower, they're basically people whistleblowing on the DOD side.
[54:18.290 --> 54:24.270]  And there's all these sort of other groups like the NASA-led group.
[54:24.270 --> 54:27.990]  And it's a paradox.
[54:27.990 --> 54:34.090]  It's a very, very bizarre, fascinating, bipartisan hearing.
[54:34.250 --> 54:35.910]  And it's very strange.
[54:36.090 --> 54:36.930]  Strange times.
[54:37.170 --> 54:38.330]  I'd like to go to one of those hearings.
[54:38.650 --> 54:39.030]  Yeah.
[54:39.410 --> 54:41.070]  But anyway.
[54:41.410 --> 54:42.770]  I'm still not speaking to Amtrak.
[54:42.910 --> 54:43.630]  Test your hearing.
[54:43.870 --> 54:45.850]  Definitely preserve your hearing.
[54:47.110 --> 54:47.590]  Okay.
[54:48.090 --> 54:49.870]  That's good advice to end on.
[54:50.110 --> 54:51.530]  Thank you, everybody, for listening.
[54:51.850 --> 54:55.990]  OTH at 2600.com is our email address if there's anything you'd like to share with us.
[54:56.310 --> 54:58.530]  We will be back next week.
[54:58.710 --> 54:59.610]  Is that the plan?
[54:59.770 --> 55:00.630]  We're going to do this again next week?
[55:00.710 --> 55:00.870]  Okay.
[55:01.330 --> 55:06.930]  And we'll have other things to talk about and we'll have overtime again, hopefully with the online chat.
[55:07.110 --> 55:07.310]  We'll see.
[55:08.030 --> 55:08.550]  Indeed.
[55:08.770 --> 55:12.710]  We will return to that feature as soon as we have the capacity.
[55:12.970 --> 55:14.890]  But please, thank you.
[55:15.110 --> 55:19.410]  Please continue to and thanks so very much for listening tonight.
[55:19.950 --> 55:20.450]  Yes.
[55:20.590 --> 55:33.550]  And let's all remember, Kevin, let's all try and do things that he would find funny and productive because that's the kind of person he was.
[55:33.830 --> 55:34.910]  That's the kind of person he always was.
[55:36.350 --> 55:39.610]  And through us, he will live on in one way or another.
[55:40.570 --> 55:41.090]  All right.
[55:41.450 --> 55:41.970]  See you next week.
[55:42.090 --> 55:42.250]  Good night.
[55:42.830 --> 55:43.190]  Good night.