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The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
One did it, but the best is back from worst.
I hope that's understood.
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We have Rapti Firefly.
Good evening.
We have Gila.
Good evening.
And we have Alex.
You do.
Good evening.
And where are you tonight, Alex?
I am not in New York.
I'm not in Pennsylvania.
I am overseas in London.
Could have just said you were in London.
Okay.
That's great.
I mean, it's not in my usual places.
Wonderful place to be, and it's good to see you.
You might have heard back here in the States, we've had some news today, the U.S. House of Representatives, you've heard of them.
Sometimes they do things.
Today, they passed a bill with what they call broad bipartisan support that would force TikTok's Chinese owner to either sell the hugely popular video app or have it banned in the United States.
Now, this is an escalation.
It's a showdown between Beijing and Washington over control of wide-range technologies.
It could affect national security, free speech, social media industry.
Now, it's interesting, too, because, you know, we don't know who to give credit to or blame, depending on your outlook.
This is something that, of course, Trump started years ago.
It's something that Republicans have mostly supported.
It's something that Trump recently commanded Republicans to stop supporting.
However, some of them actually defied his orders and approved this bill.
The vote was 352 to 65, and there seems to be backing on both sides.
It's a bipartisan coalition behind the measure, included Republicans, who, as I said, defied former President Donald Trump in supporting it,
Democrats, who also fell in line behind a bill that President Biden has said he would sign.
It still has to go through the Senate, and it's a difficult road there.
But before we really go into this, any thoughts, feelings, emotions about this?
Kyle, have you got something?
Yeah, I kind of take issue with it being characterized as his brainchild.
I think it surfaced under his administration, and he went along with it.
But I think we're giving him a lot of credit just in the headline or whatever you were reading there.
Well, yeah, you could say that.
I mean, is it not a priority were he not the instigator at the time or putting it out in the public sphere at the time?
I mean, can we take the personality out of it and think of this as something that could potentially be a software vulnerability,
unlike anything we've understood previously with packaged and other forms of software distribution?
Yeah, I mean, there are ways of looking at this.
There are ways of interpreting what happened today and what this all means.
But I think this might not be something that Democrats want to have listed to their credit.
And I say that because there is some pushback to this, and there is some strong pushback to this.
Let me just give you an example.
Eighth graders might not seem like much now, but they will become a force.
Eighth graders in Joe Latour's Lunchtime Book Club rushed into his Oceanside, Long Island, middle school classroom today.
Outraged.
This is ridiculous, they said about the potential ban on TikTok.
The kids came in steaming mad about this, said Latour, an English teacher.
I have middle school students who at recess are going out to call the lobbying numbers right now.
That level of engagement is rare.
They're mad.
They're really mad.
This is from Newstay.
Now, look, I know eighth graders can't vote, but if you get a bunch of middle schoolers pissed off at you, that's going to continue to snowball.
And you might want to back away from whatever it is you're doing.
And I think this might be something that Trump actually is sensing, and maybe he wants to cast the blame, because it will turn into blame, onto Democrats and get a whole lot of new young voters on his side.
All I'm saying is this isn't going to pass through the Senate easily or in the near future.
Democrats might just want to not be affiliated with this until it's certain that this is what people generally want.
Go ahead, Rob.
The thing that strikes me about this whole controversy is that the uproar is about TikTok being beholden to Chinese interests.
But what they're actually doing is the same thing that every centralized commercial for-profit social media app does.
It's okay when, I guess, Twitter does it to its users or Facebook does it to its users.
That information that they get is being sold to advertisers and that whole ecosystem of information brokerage that happens all over the net and that we've pointed out time and time again on this program has the real potential to mess with people.
But the instant it's something with ties to another country doing it, that's when there's an uproar.
That's when the politicians get them in a twist.
And if they ban this one app, I mean, first of all, have we learned nothing?
Kids are going to be brewing apps in their basements.
They're going to be a secret door down a flight of stairs you have to use to watch videos on your phone.
And it's not going to be received well.
And especially now when you're hitting young people where they live, Emmanuel, I think you make a really good point that this is going to wake up a kind of political activism in the younger class, age group, in a way that nothing else really could.
You're hitting people where they live right now.
You're hitting the digital natives where they live in a really significant way.
I hope they're mad.
I really hope that.
I hope to see it.
I really I'm not afraid of this at all.
You want you want mad eighth graders?
There are so many good aspects of them getting getting involved in calling.
I hope they do put pressure, eighth grade pressure on on legislators.
That is engagement.
That's political.
That that is exciting.
Even if I don't agree with it, that is fantastic.
It is.
But if they're going and making phone calls to get rid of Democrats because they somehow perceive that this is a Democratic led initiative, when really it was Trump with his nationalism and anti China rhetoric who spearheaded this way back.
And now he's backing off.
I think for once, let's give him the credit he deserves.
I really think he should be the one to be fielding those phone calls.
I think we can be in agreement that all of these apps really are due.
But this kind of scrutiny, they're not getting it because they are American companies for the exact same corrupt reasons.
I think we're all aware of, you know, they get special treatment, though, because they're domestic.
So let's be honest about the kind of lobbying that allows them preference and and garners this kind of scrutiny to a foreign entity.
You know, I agree.
I mean, they are these apps should definitely be scrutinized.
I just don't think that the redneck who represents me in Congress is the person to do that.
I think we should be scrutinizing these apps all the time.
And that includes apps that are made right here in the good old USA, you know, and and we should be demanding what we want from them or driving them out of business in the old fashioned way.
Now, Alex, I know you've got some opinions on this.
But yeah, I do.
Can you guys hear me OK?
If you speak, we can hear you.
Yes, you haven't been speaking.
You sound fine, Alex.
OK, no, I'm getting some some poor connection signals here and I was losing audio for a little while.
So I don't know exactly what what everybody had said.
But the I wrote about this years ago.
And if you remember, I wrote in an article for the Philadelphia Inquirer when Trump tried to ban TikTok.
And I essentially made the same argument that Rob had made earlier, which is that a lot of other apps are doing the exact same thing.
And that quite literally until we have some kind of overarching consumer protection law when it comes to the collection, use and sale of our personal and private information from these apps.
And it's kind of silly and really idiotic in a way to think that we can stop China or stop some foreign adversary from acquiring that particular data because they can simply buy it from other social media platforms or other data brokers and put it all together.
And then combine that with all the data that they have from various data breaches.
And you begin to paint a really interesting mosaic, a useful mosaic of what's going on in Americans' lives.
So there are plenty of easier ways for China to acquire information about the youth of America, what's going on.
It's already being collected.
This ban seems silly.
It seems offensive to the First Amendment.
It seems potentially to violate other provisions of the Constitution, in particular with respect to the impairment of contracts.
And so I think it should be abandoned and seen for what it is, silly and a political stunt.
Go ahead, Kyle.
Are you idiotic?
I mean, so that whenever is that there have been breaches, there have been vulnerabilities, we have other private unregulated or under-regulated industries that are alternative forms that can get us maybe slower or less high-frequency information about people,
but that that information could be found in other ways, it's worthy of us being brain-dead about policy going forward?
I really disagree with that.
I mean, I think we're being a little harsh on the scrutiny because the data brokers should be scrutinized as well.
I really don't think that, you know, this is that stupid of an idea, considering the kinds of technologies we're experiencing now and going to be using in the future.
And that's part of this, is that we have been asleep at the wheel, and somehow we're arguing that we should just be even more comatose about this whole thing.
That's brilliant. I love the fantasy, but I'm not on board with it at all.
Oh, I love disagreement. This is what makes things interesting. Go ahead, Alex.
But I don't think we're disagreeing. I think we actually are fundamentally in agreement there, Kyle, which is that what we need is an overarching regulation of this type of data
and the usage of this data and the sale of this type of data, especially when it comes to third parties.
We've tried this on in California. It hasn't worked exactly well.
But until we have some kind of federal overarching privacy law that protects consumers, this type of data is going to be available,
and it's going to be available not just to China. It's going to be available to Russia.
It's going to be available to anybody who wants to purchase this data from any social media company.
Remember, go back not too many years ago, and Facebook was giving away our personal information to any person who wanted to create some kind of survey
or some kind of quiz on their platform. That's how the Cambridge Analytica scandal started out.
So I don't think that we are in agreement.
I think that what I'm saying is idiotic here is the notion that this is going to help anything.
I think you meant to say you don't think you're in disagreement, right?
Oh, yes. That's what I meant to say, yes. I agree with that.
Just not to confuse us anymore.
But, okay, so let's look at it this way.
If TikTok was not controlled by a Chinese company, would any of this be happening?
If they were doing the exact same collection of data and sending it to a friendly government or a friendly corporation, would Congress care?
And I think we know the answer.
I think it's pretty obvious that they wouldn't.
So can we look at this and say this is simply a way of striking out at anything that's controlled by China?
And, you know, I'm not saying that's not something we should be concerned about.
But there are so many other instances that we seem to be giving a free pass to.
And maybe we should be looking at all of them.
But, you know, I have a problem with Congress being the entity to do this.
I think, you know, people like us, people like the EFF, we're going to hear their point of view in a second.
And many others should be part of this.
And these companies should be exposed for what they're doing.
Yeah.
Who's got their hand up?
Rob, go ahead, Rob.
Yeah, I mean, the bill in question that just passed the House, the name of this is the Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act.
And this is not about privacy.
This is not about the information about you or your kids or whoever is using these apps shouldn't be out there.
This is about just we don't want applications controlled by certain other countries to have this information.
And this is really if you when you look into this, this is really just on the face of it, foolhardy.
Because, as you said, like if China wants that information, China can buy it from from Facebook, from, you know, anything else from Google.
Any anyone that buys and sells this info about you.
But if Singapore wanted to do this, if Singapore is friendly with the U.S., you know, if they wanted to – I'm not picking on them for any particular reason.
But, you know, if, say, a right-wing regime someplace, they wanted to do exactly what China is doing, Congress wouldn't have a problem with that?
Is that what we read into this?
In the text of the bill, it specifies that the bill prohibits distributing, maintaining, or providing Internet hosting services for a foreign adversary controlled application.
Go ahead, Kyle.
I just – I'm astonished again because what in the hell is legal precedent?
Like, what better use case scenario than this, than with a foreign adversary that – I mean, these companies that own other apps, like they don't – they aren't militarizing technology in the same way, right?
We aren't at the mercy of persistent, like, real economic downsides to active activity that is meant to completely undermine our entire being.
Like, that's not necessarily what any individual social media – some of them, you know, they're a bit maniacal, I think, and would love that.
But I really feel like this is about setting a tone with one of the very largest markets in the world, okay?
So, we're working on this, like, 90s idealism that I think is out of control because, hello, like, wake up with whatever else is going on geopolitically.
Like, why give an inch?
Why now?
Maybe 20, 30 years ago?
Sure.
Sure.
NAFTA, all that.
But wake up.
You know, I think the thing is, though, even if we do wake up and do this, it's so easy to get around it.
I think that's some of the points that are being made.
That's exactly right.
That's why industry – that's why people need to understand what we are dealing with and at least set a precedent for transparency.
And if people don't play by those rules, then don't allow them in the market.
I mean, these algorithms, all the private data share, all of that stuff – like, it all deserves as much scrutiny.
We don't know how a lot of this stuff was working.
People had to reverse engineer stuff.
And I just feel like if – and this, like, oh, politicians don't know.
Well, I think they do, actually.
Like, who has clearances on some of these matters?
I think there are committees.
I think there is knowledge that maybe we don't fully understand, and we should appreciate that they do do some level of reading into some of this that we're not exactly clear on.
I wish I could believe that, but I've seen them acting or not acting over the past few years, and I support –
So it's an entire farce.
Like, they really don't care at all.
Congress, yes, but I support –
So why are they using language like adversary?
Somebody told them that.
But, look, the point is I think that technological experts should definitely be involved in this and should be scrutinizing all of these companies and nation states and whatever to see what's happening to our data.
Absolutely.
I just – you know, I think these guys, they're not going to – they're not going to do the full job.
They're going to do what gets them votes, what gets them headlines, what gets us talking about it, and they're going to stop after that.
Maybe I'm jaded.
This is technological self-immolation.
Well, that's a sound, Mike.
Go ahead, Alex.
I mean, I think I understand what you're saying, Kyle.
But if you're arguing what I think you're arguing is that this is broader.
We need to think about this realistically and pragmatically in some respects.
But I think if we're taking the –
Alex, you're in a major European city.
How is it you have such lousy internet connections?
We can't hear you at all.
You're breaking up.
This is nuts.
It's 2024.
Do we want to blame the Chinese?
Do we want to blame – I mean, say what?
We can't hear you.
You're breaking up.
I don't know.
Can you call us on a telephone or something?
Yeah.
I just think we – so we shouldn't have –
Let's give him a chance.
Oh, go ahead.
Go ahead, Alex.
You're groaning.
I'm hearing it.
Yeah.
Sorry.
This is painful over here.
I don't know why the connection is so bad.
It was actually a pretty fast connection.
Maybe it's the Chinese.
I don't think it's a fast connection.
I don't think it is.
Well, it was earlier.
All right.
Let's stop talking about the connection.
We seem to be able to talk about that.
Okay.
Let's talk about the issue before we move on to something else.
Exactly.
I think the issue is broader here, and it's about data sharing and making sure our data, whatever the provenance of it is, wherever it comes from, should not fall into the hands of foreign adversaries.
I think we need to think about this more broadly as opposed to focusing on one Chinese-oriented company.
Because let's say it was an Italian.
Let's say TikTok, for the sake of argument, was an Italian company.
Well, then they could collect all this data, and they could just package it up and sell it right back to China, which may, in fact, be what is happening through data brokers and other social media platforms.
So I think if it's about the data and protecting Americans and whatnot, then I think we have to think about this more broadly.
But, you know, Alex, I'm trying to see Kyle's point now because, well, you say that the Italians could just do this, and I'm sorry, Italy, we're not picking on you in particular.
But it sounds like the gun argument where basically we shouldn't ban guns because criminals will always be able to get guns.
So why have any laws whatsoever?
That's not true at all.
I know that's not true, but that's what people say.
That's what the right wing says.
I'll take this one.
Okay.
I marvel.
I marvel at the idea.
But let's look at any big, broad, rules-based, big, global thing where we sort of say, we're going to get together collectively, and we're all going to agree on this.
Well, how many instances does that get flouted?
Like just, they don't play ball.
They say they will, and they don't.
I mean, look at the UN right now.
How many paralyzed global organizations do we have that are well-meaning and functionally useless?
I mean, that's great.
We can say globally, everybody do this.
Don't use plastic.
There's still going to be plastic.
I think specific targeted things set a precedent so that people say, huh, maybe we should advocate more for our users because, well, they're our citizens after all.
We should maybe protect them instead of interconnecting everything at the lowest cost with no protections and letting them all be victimized, like just completely flayed and gutted online.
It's so silly to me.
Okay, Alex, try to say something, and I'm going to read the EFF position, then we're going to move on.
Go ahead.
Sure.
Sure.
I think TikTok is painted with a very tainted brush.
I think if we go back just a couple of years, too, we were talking on this very show about the fact that it was incredibly suspect that TikTok examines clipboard data from its users.
I don't know if you remember this, but this was a long discussion that we had.
We said, well, that's really crazy.
There could be passwords.
There could be stored information about people.
Well, I looked into this, and this is one of the things that I wrote about in the Philadelphia Inquirer opinion piece, and it turns out that there are really good reasons for looking at clipboard data.
You want to prevent spam posts.
You want to prevent people from posting the same data over and over and over again.
It turns out that TikTok had actually stopped doing that, so they engaged in better data privacy and data security practices with respect to their users.
It turns out that so many other apps, like the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal and Fox News, if I understand correctly, and the ironic thing is I tried to find the article that I wrote for the Philadelphia Inquirer, but I can't access it because it's behind a paywall now, which is ridiculous.
But if I recall correctly from that article, all these other apps, all these American apps were doing the very same thing that we had condemned TikTok for doing, and it is a wider problem as well.
It's more systemic in that the very same business that has made American companies like Face.
I totally agree with that, and I just want to say, like, maybe it's the wrong law.
Maybe it's a bad law.
That is part of our process, too.
Okay, let's meet there.
Let's meet there.
It's a bad law.
I think there are better ways of saying it.
We learn from these things, and they develop and become better legislation, ultimately, and hopefully affect society.
Alex, do you want to try to finish that thought or maybe call us on the phone or something?
Yeah, I'll try.
I don't know.
What the hell is going on here?
What was the last thing that you heard me say?
Do you even recall?
Well, but in a sense, the thought that I was trying to finish, the point that I was trying to make is that TikTok is engaged in the very same practices and the very same business models that have made U.S. companies literally billions of dollars exploiting the personal information and web browsing habits and social media habits of Americans.
And so we're condemning them for the very same practices that American companies have utilized for so many years now.
And until we address the wider systemic issue of making billions of dollars off of essentially surveillance capitalism, we're going to be finding ourselves in the same boat over and over and over again.
This seems xenophobic.
It seems unconstitutional.
It seems offensive to the First Amendment.
And I think it's a political charade.
OK, and my only point on that is that if it is seen that way in the end and if it never gets passed by the Senate, do Democrats really want that on their shoulders if it can be used against them by Republicans?
The ultimate irony, you know, who is attacking freedom of speech more?
Who is, you know, the risk to democracy more?
So it's just, you know, politically, let's let's think this through.
Now, what EFF said about this quickly, they put out a piece about this.
Congress's unfounded plan to ban TikTok under the guise of protecting our data is back, this time in the form of a new bill.
The Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act, H.R. 7521, which has gained a dangerous amount of momentum in Congress.
This bipartisan legislation was introduced in the House just a week ago and is expected to be sent to the Senate after a vote this week, which has already taken place.
A year ago, supporters of digital rights across the country successfully stopped the Federal Restrict Act, commonly known as the TikTok ban, TikTok ban bill.
It was that and a whole lot more.
Now, we must do the same with this bill as a first step.
H.R. 7521 would force TikTok to find a new owner that is not based in a foreign adversarial country within the next 180 days or be banned until it does so.
It would also give the president the power to designate other applications under the control of a country considered adversarial to the U.S.
to be a national security threat.
If deemed the national security threat, the application will be banned from app stores and web hosting services unless it cuts all ties with the foreign adversarial country within 180 days.
The bill would criminalize the distribution of the application through app stores or other web services, as well as the maintenance of such an app by the company.
Ultimately, the result of the bill would either be a nationwide ban on TikTok or a forced sale of the application to a different company.
Make no mistake, though, this law starts with TikTok specifically.
It could have an impact elsewhere.
Tencent's WeChat app is one of the world's largest standalone messenger platforms with over a billion users and is a key vehicle for the Chinese diaspora generally.
It would likely also be a target.
The bill's sponsors have argued that the amount of private data available to and collected by the companies behind these applications and, in theory, shared with the foreign government makes them a national security threat.
But like the Restrict Act, this bill won't stop this data sharing and will instead reduce our rights online.
User data will still be collected by numerous platforms, possibly even TikTok after a forced sale, and it will still be sold to data brokers who can then sell it elsewhere just as they do now.
The only solution to this pervasive ecosystem is prohibiting the collection of our data in the first place.
Ultimately, foreign adversaries will still be able to obtain our data from social media companies unless those companies are forbidden from collecting, retaining, and selling it, full stop.
And to be clear, under our current data privacy laws, there are many domestic adversaries engaged in manipulative and invasive data collection as well.
That's why EFF supports such consumer data privacy legislation.
Now, Congress has also argued this bill is necessary to tackle the anti-American propaganda that young people are seeing due to TikTok's algorithm.
Both this justification and the national security justification raise serious First Amendment concerns.
And last week, EFF, the ACLU, CDT, and Fight for the Future wrote to the House Energy and Commerce Committee urging them to oppose this bill due to its First Amendment violations,
specifically for those across the country who rely on TikTok for information, advocacy, entertainment, and communication.
The U.S. has rightfully condemned other countries when they have banned or sought a ban on specific social media platforms.
And it's not just civil society saying this.
Late last year, the courts blocked Montana's TikTok ban, SB 419, from going into effect on January 1st,
ruling that the law violated users' First Amendment rights to speak and to access information online,
and the company's First Amendment rights to select and curate users' content.
EFF and the ACLU had filed a friend-of-the-court brief in support of a challenge to the law brought by TikTok
and a group of the app's users who live in Montana.
That pretty much sums it all up.
But, Kyle, you want a final word on this?
Then we're going to move on to some other stories because there are other things going on.
There's no final, but, I mean, I would just say if there is zero risk, prove it.
All the way around with any of these things.
And that, I think, is the consumer interest standpoint.
All right.
Well, if you have an opinion on this, you can either call us on Overtime later at 8 o'clock on YouTube
or write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
And we will be happy to read all of our listeners' e-mail and perhaps read it over the air as well.
Now, speaking of social media and restrictions and clampdowns and things like that,
I hear about this story involving Elon Musk yet again.
He basically managed to cancel a new show that was appearing through X
because he didn't like how an interview went.
Yeah, in the wake of a testy interview with Elon Musk,
the former television anchor Don Lemon's deal for a new talk show on,
I'm not saying X, on Twitter.
It's Twitter.
Combusted just days before it was scheduled to air.
Mr. Musk called off Mr. Lemon's partnership with Twitter
the day after filming an hour-and-a-half-long interview
with the former news anchor at SpaceX's office in Austin, Texas.
The conversation was occasionally tense, according to Mr. Lemon,
as he asked probing questions about the upcoming U.S. presidential elections,
Mr. Musk's reported drug use, and his various business ventures.
Mr. Lemon said he would release the interview on March 18th on YouTube
and would continue to share his content on Twitter.
My questions were respectful and wide-ranging,
covering everything from SpaceX to the presidential election,
Lemon said.
We had a good conversation.
Clearly, he felt differently.
His commitment to a global town square
where all questions can be asked and all ideas can be shared
seems not to include questions of him from people like me.
You know, I think that just goes to show that
when someone has control of something really, really powerful,
like Twitter, or whatever they call it today,
that power almost inevitably will be abused.
And I think that's what we're seeing here.
Thoughts?
Go ahead, Gail.
I mean, first of all, I'm just entertained by we Googled this.
And most people are saying Don Lemon's show was abruptly canceled,
except the New York Post starts.
Don Lemon was fired again.
So God bless the New York Post.
But also, no, is anybody surprised by this?
Elon Musk is a free speech absolutist.
Are you kidding me?
No, it's what he likes and what he's okay with.
And his feelings got hurt.
And let's remember, this is all happening because he got his feelings hurt.
Right?
He bought Twitter because he got broken up with and he was sad.
And he couldn't just go buy a sports car, so he bought Twitter.
However, this is all happening because this is a petty man who gets his feelings hurt really, really easily.
Can we be careful here because we still have a Twitter account and, you know, we use it sometimes.
Can you walk that back maybe?
I mean, probably not anymore.
Keep him happy.
No, I mean, we're living in an age of big babies that have so much control
and are unleashing their rage on everybody around them.
Why do we keep accepting this?
Why do we keep saying this is normal and okay?
You know, we don't have to do this.
It's the theme of the evening.
Sorry, Kyle.
I think people are really unaccountable, generally.
And there's a lot of...
Certain people.
A lot of stuff that they might present as evidence for allowing them to behave as they are
and that, you know, we aren't considerate or understanding enough of them.
And I kind of get that.
I think that, you know, people have to do work at, you know, being who they are,
especially if they're responsible for other people and how things operate.
And we think we've seen some of that myopic management from a lot of the titans we've witnessed over the years, shall I say.
They really do not behave like adults at all.
They behave like children.
That's what you were saying, Gil.
It's basically they have their big toys.
And, you know, if us, you know, the mobs of people at the bottom,
if we don't give them the, I guess, reverence that they demand of us, then we get punished.
I mean, this is, you know, it's no different than being a serf back in the old days,
except it's with modern technology now.
And maybe we can talk about it a little bit more amongst ourselves.
But the mentality is still the same.
These people have way too much power, way too much control,
and they need to be brought down a few pegs, hard.
Go ahead, Gil.
Absolutely.
But that was the thing that, and I'm sorry to bring this back for a moment,
but I was looking at the text of the bill as it stands right now.
And what it reminds me of more than anything else in the whole entire world
is when elementary schoolers decide they're going to make a club out of hating someone.
Again, this is the I hate TikTok club writ large and about to get signed into,
well, probably not about to get signed into law,
but theoretically possibly going to be able to get signed into law at some point.
Because what it says is we hate TikTok and anything else that TikTok might turn into.
And if anybody else wants to pile on top of this at some point in the future, that's fine.
But TikTok really sucks.
And we want that enacted into law.
Somehow we veered back into TikTok.
How did that happen?
We were talking about Twitter and Elon Musk and Don Lemon.
Right.
But it's all the, it's not infantilization, but it is the dogged childishness of so much
of what the national discourse has turned into.
And Twitter has become, if you hurt my feelings, you're off my platform.
This place that was the de facto town square for the entire world for a long time.
And then Congress standing together saying, we hate this person.
And if you don't hate this person, then you're a bad American.
It's like, why is the entire world in kindergarten right now?
Why?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, it goes well beyond that.
It goes towards, you know, immigration and right-wing hatred of all that that is different,
attacks on the trans community, attacks on the gay community.
We don't have enough time.
It's just very dark times.
And that's why we have to stay awake.
We have to not allow ourselves to be tricked into using language and Orwellian ways that
are exactly, you know, mean exactly the opposite of what the truth actually represents.
And that happens a lot in the world of politics.
You have to be careful.
You'll find yourself being accused of somehow attacking somebody's freedom of speech when
what they're trying to do is something filled with hatred and violence.
Um, and then you become the enemy of freedom.
You know, it's, you have to be very careful because, you know, the people that we see as
dangerous to the future of our country are very good at what they do.
They really are.
They know what they're doing.
They know how to get the sound bites and to make it seem like people are doing the opposite
of what they are actually doing.
And to basically get us so upset that we become unhinged and we have to be careful in the next
few months.
Boy, we have to be careful to, to get it right and to participate and to always remember the
power that we have.
Yeah.
I think things can easily become polar, like because of the hyperbolic environment, politically
co-opted, I think is what Gila is getting at and, and mutate into this like broader unrest
in, um, that may have deeper kind of, uh, anger and roots.
Exactly.
And just to localize it for a moment for our New York audience.
And, you know, since we are on terrestrial radio right now, um, the Shen Yun posters,
right?
They're up all over the place because Shen Yun is coming back and it's not that it's, you
know, I remember a few years ago when it was just like a weird dance thing and now all
you know, all the posters say now.
What?
China before communism.
They all say China before communism.
And that's why you should come see Shen Yun because that's, I mean, I always thought it
was weird and I was never like super on board with it.
And then I started hearing weird things about what it was, but like, what, how is going to
see this dance performance, a strike against the Chinese communist party, which is how they're
trying to frame it.
I don't understand.
I think, uh, we can see that in, uh, in so many other examples as well.
Anything that is at all controversial or in the news is being politicized in one form or
another.
And, um, you're wrong if you don't support everything that is said on a poster or in a
speech or, or, or, or whatever.
Hey, uh, a little bit of business we have to do here because, um, we are, uh, on WBAI
on a radio station.
And we mentioned this last week that it's, um, uh, important for us to raise a certain
amount of money each month.
And we hope that people are, um, phoning in or going to the website, the phone number
212-209-2950 or the website, give to WBAI.org.
And pledging whatever they can afford in the name of off the hook so that we reach that
$350 goal for the month, which is really not that much to ask for.
Um, Jim writes in, um, uh, is that $350 by the end of the month going to be for every
month?
And, and Jim, you titled your email WBAI ransom.
So I kind of get, get the feeling that you're not happy about this.
Uh, listen, uh, yes, it is every month.
Um, it's not much to ask for, but think of the alternative.
How would a radio station raise money?
Otherwise they do it through advertising.
They do it through, uh, basically selling time and, um, not having conversations like
this.
Look, we're having a very spirited conversation this hour and it's, it's great fun.
I imagine a lot of listeners are yelling at their radio right now.
And that's what it's all about.
Um, in order to keep that going, we need to keep the radio station going.
It's been, it's been on the air pretty much nonstop since 1960 and completely through the
donations of listeners like you and unlike you as well.
So, um, thanks for asking.
And yes, we hope we have your support.
Um, here's a letter from Tom who wants to know if, uh, uh, we found out about, uh, his
donation.
Actually, you know what?
We didn't.
Uh, so, uh, we need to find out from the station how many donations we've gotten so
far, because maybe we've already reached a $350 goal.
I don't know.
Uh, but, um, please keep those donations coming in 212-209-2950 or give to WBAI.org.
And we have to raise $350 a month, March, April, May.
And if we don't do that, you might not hear us in June.
Simple as that.
And I understand it.
Go ahead, Rob.
And, uh, on, on the note of, uh, that note we got, that was very sweet for you to forward
us that time.
And we very much appreciate your donation, your support, and, uh, what you wrote to
us, uh, which, uh, Tom wrote for years, OTH has been vital for understanding privacy and
security concerns.
There is nowhere else this type of free discussion is found.
And it's, it's, uh, it's sentiments like that that mean so much to us.
And of course, we're on the radio, we're online.
We don't get a lot of direct feedback outside of that we invite, uh, in phone calls and emails
and stuff.
So, yes, we love hearing this sort of thing from you.
And if you, if you, uh, go to give2wbai.org and show your support, and yes, we would love
it if you would forward us, uh, your receipt as well.
And yeah, thanks.
Thank you.
Thank you for letting us keep doing what we're doing on this show and on this station.
Okay.
Getting back to, uh, what's been going on in the world of tech.
Uh, and this is, this is an unbelievable story.
Uh, uh, British Columbia Supreme court judge says a class action lawsuit can move forward
over alleged privacy breaches against the company that made an app to track users, menstrual
and fertility cycles.
Uh, the ruling was published Friday says the action against flow health incorporated alleges
the company shared users, highly personal health information with third parties, including
Facebook, Google, and China.
No, I'm kidding.
Or am I?
Uh, the ruling says the company's flow health and period tracker app is available in more
than 100 countries with millions of users around the world, assisting women by tracking
all phases of their reproductive cycle.
Uh, the, uh, decision that certifies the class action says it would cover more than 1 million
users who added personal information about their menstrual cycles and other data, including
their bodily functions and when and how often they had sexual intercourse.
Um, so, uh, the, the lawsuit alleges that flow health misused users personal information
for its own financial gain, uh, claiming breach of privacy, breach of confidence, uh, yeah,
breach of confidence and intrusion upon seclusion, which is a phrase I don't think I've ever
heard before, but boy, that's, that sounds kind of interesting.
Um, folks, do you have any, uh, Gila, go ahead, some comments on this?
Oh, boy, do I have feelings.
Um, as I'm reasonably willing to posit the one of us who really has skin in this particular
game.
Um, oh my God.
Okay.
First of all, let's start with the fact that people who menstruate have been tracking these
kinds of things since before time and will continue to do so afterward.
I will tell you, there was a discussion in our home and I said, seriously, get, take this
off your phone.
Don't put it in your calendar app.
Don't put it in a third party app.
Get yourself a paper pocket calendar and a pen.
And that is how you track this.
This is terrifying.
And the idea that more companies are going to have access to this data and they're going
to track where I happen to be in a particular, let's say 28 day cycle.
And they're going to say, oh gosh, it's two weeks out here.
Gila have some ads for chocolate.
No, I am livid about this.
And if I lived in Canada and frankly had been dumb enough to use this app, I would be in
that class so fast.
It would make your head spin.
I, I lack words for how bad and how intrusive this whole thing is.
And again, if you are a person who is listening, who is a person who menstruates or who loves
a person who menstruates or knows one, get them a pocket app, get them a pocket calendar
and a pen.
This is data that is, we're talking about sensitive data.
This is it.
This is beyond sensitive.
This is not something you want to run into any possible way to wind up sharing with other
people.
And oh my God, I, clearly I'm head up and I have a lot of feelings about this.
It is the most private thing you can be thinking of in the idea of intrusion upon seclusion,
which I also had never heard before, but is now my new favorite phrase.
No, there are places where apps should stop.
There are places beyond which privacy should be sacrosanct.
And this absolutely has to be one of them.
You know, you just said, I think we should record and put as a public service announcement
because yes, people need to think before they add something like this to their phone.
And you know, this happened in Canada, but are we sure it's not happening in our country?
We know it is.
We, there are so many, it, uh, and with the trend toward reusable period product because
they're better for the environment, that's great.
When the day comes that you're out there buying a disc that comes with an app, do not enable
that app.
If it's not coming yet, it will be coming soon.
And that is scary.
We do not need internet of things, period products.
We just don't.
I just want to add like the generally, like the trend as Gila's example points out, isn't
going like towards less interconnectedness or capability.
And, um, it just, it, as this progresses and enhances, we have to like guard things more,
not like be cavalier or say, well, it's, it's, it's, we have to give up.
Like that's the, the, the point is, um, like these companies could be set up now with the
example of, um, laws change.
I don't think Canada is at risk of any kind of abortion, uh, situation changing, but in
the U S that was, I think we have covered a couple of stories about apps that, that immediately
gave alerts or guidance to people about, or, and other, uh, advocacy groups were telling
people what to do, what to, to delete things.
And I think that immediately happened after, um, uh, the, um, Dobbs decision came down.
So, um, that's just the point, like, okay, we, again, we can have this altruistic thing
of like the market is what, what we plan for it to be when we do our product design life
cycle.
But as hackers, like we know unintended uses are what the name of the game is.
And there's a huge troll in other entities, companies, whatever, who don't want to play
ball and they will troll.
In other words, play our game, but use it in ways we hadn't thought of in the design
process.
You know, everything we've talked about tonight, great ideas for hope talks and panels.
And, um, we just sent out a major announcement today about some, some really, um, um, great
updates as far as places to stay and all that hope is happening this July, uh, at St.
John's university, July 12th to the 14th, right?
Yeah.
Uh, and, um, we're going to be talking about all kinds of technological issues and, uh,
there'll be workshops, there'll be villages, there'll be all sorts of discussions and,
and ideas and brainstorming and things like that.
Hope.net is where you can find more information about that.
Um, we are going to continue this conversation over on YouTube.
You can go to the link at 2600.com.
It's right there on the front page or just mosey on over to channel 2600 and, uh, find us
there.
You can call us, you can, um, um, listen to us banter away with, uh, more people.
Uh, and please write to us.
O T H at 2600.com.
Hey, any, uh, Laurie Anderson fans in our, in our crowd tonight.
Yeah.
You like early Laurie Anderson.
Well, I was lying in bed one morning, trying to think of a really good reason to get up
and the phone rang and it was Jerry and she said, Hey, hi, how are you?
What's going on?
How's your work going?
Oh, fine.
You know, just waking up, but it's fine.
It's going okay.
How's yours?
Oh, a lot of work.
You know, I'm trying to make some money too.
Listen, I've got to get back to it.
Uh, just thought I'd call to see how you are.
I say, yeah, you know, we really should get together next week, you know, have lunch and
talk.
And then she says, yeah, I'll be in touch.
Okay.
Okay.
Listen, take care.
Take it easy.
See you soon.
Bye bye.
Bye now.
And I get up and the phone rings again and it's a man from Cleveland and he says, Hey,
hi, how are you?
Listen, uh, I'm doing a performance series and I'd like you to do something in it.
You know, you can make a little money.
I don't know how I feel about your work, you know.
It's not really my style.
Can I try it?
But listen, it's just my opinion.
Don't take it personally.
So listen, I'll be in town next week.
I got to go now, but I'll give you a call.
We'll have lunch.
We can discuss a few things.
I hang up and it rings again and I don't answer it.
And I go out for a walk.
They drop in at the gallery and they say, Hey, hi, how are you?
Fine.
You know, how's your work going?
Okay.
You know, it's just not like it was in the sixties.
Those were the days.
There's just no money around now.
You know, survive, produce, stick it out.
It's a jungle out there.
So just keep working.
And the phone rings and she says, Oh, excuse me.
Will you?
Well, hi, how are you?
How's your work?
Good.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Well, stick it out.
Oh, it's not the sixties.
You know, listen, I got to go now.
Lunch would be great.
Next week?
Yeah.
Great.
Very busy now, but next week could be fine.
Okay.
Bye now.
And I go to Magoo's for a bite and I see Frank.
And I go over to his table and I say, Hey, Frank.
Hi, how are you?
How's your work?
Good.
Okay.
Yeah, mine's okay, too.
You know, I'm broke, you know, but working.
Listen, I got to go.
Okay.
Listen, we should really get together.
Why don't you drop by sometime?
That had to be great.
Listen, take care.
Take it easy.
Take it easy.
Take it easy.
I'll see you.
I'll call you.
Bye-bye.
Bye now.
And I go to a party and everyone's sitting around wearing these party hats and it's really awkward
and no one can pick up anything to say.
So we all move around fast.
And it's, Hi.
How are you?
Hey, listen, where have you been?
Nice to see you.
Sorry I didn't make your performance last week.
Listen, we should really get together next week.
You know, I'll call you.
I'll see you.
Okay.
Bye-bye.
And I go home and the phone rings and it's Alan.
And he says, Hey, hi.
Listen, I'm going to have a show on cable TV and it's going to be about loneliness.
You know, people in the city who, for whatever sociological, psychological, philosophical reasons,
just can't seem to communicate.
You know, the gap.
The gap.
You know, it'll be a talk show and people will phone in.
But we will say at the beginning of each program, listen, don't call in with your personal problems
because we don't want to hear them.
And I'm going to sleep and it rings again and it's Mary and she says, Hey, Lori.
Hi.
How are you?
Listen, just call to say hi.
And don't worry.
Listen, just keep working.
I've got to go now.
I know it's late, but we should really get together next week.
And listen, Lori, if you want to talk, I'll leave my answering machine on and just give
me a ring anytime.
Thank you.
And welcome everybody over on YouTube
Where I seem to have made it. Okay. Yeah, Kyle. Are you here in YouTube land? I made it. All right
Rob I
Made it as well. We seem to be okay and Gila you're there
Indeed and welcome to the 24 people who are here with us too and Alex
Oh my god, not again, it it seems we lost areas there is there he goes, okay
There you are Alex. How's how's your connection doing?
I don't know you tell me it's a bit spotty. It's it sounds fine now
Can can you know without being too intrusive? Can can we ask how are you connecting?
Through Wi-Fi, ah
Okay
Wi-Fi sucks. Sometimes it really does
Well, my data connection in London since I've been here has been absolutely horrendous for some reason
I don't understand what's going on
But I'll lose data and I think it was when I was I think the Wi-Fi connection
Did sometimes suck here?
I would drop that and then reverting to whatever my data connection is through the telecom companies here
Was pretty horrendous
I don't know what happened. I went to
I don't know what happened. I went to uh, I was in oxford yesterday and uh, and from this morning
And ever since I visited oxford
It has been
Uh pretty horrible in terms of my data connectivity
well, that's um
Sad news to hear but um, there are alternatives. Like I said, it's 2024
um, I miss the days where we just made phone calls, you know, because we could hear each other and uh,
Especially with landlines. Yeah, it costs something but
Uh, well, you know
And this this goes for everybody. It's not just us. It's you know, you're watching somebody being interviewed on cnn
And you know, it's not a good connection. It sounds terrible, you know a newscast from the 1950s would have sounded better
I don't know. It's uh
Usually sometimes it's like we we we don't finish the technological upgrades that we start out. I do
Yeah, you do
You want to get to work on this then because nobody else is
All right, uh any uh remaining thoughts people want to get out of their systems before we move on to new material and phone calls
Um, I just have a quick listener question
Um a question to a listener or a question a question from a listener. Oh, okay
Yeah, we have a a chat question
Um, we are asked and I quote are y'all ever gonna get club mate back in the store?
Oh good question. Uh, no, we we don't okay
And the reason I i'm i'm so um, uh blunt about that is because we did it
We got it into the country. We did our bit and one day we realized you know what we're magazine publishers
We're not soda distributors and we're becoming more and more soda distributors
And uh, that's just not who we are. You know, we're good at it. We did a good job
It was fun. I learned a hell of a lot, but I don't want to do that
It's backbreaking and we are used to because moving a lot of paper that's definitely more of a publisher thing
But we want to stick with paper liquids and uh, you know
Heavy, you know a pallet rolled over my foot once that was not pleasant. It's uh, yeah, and it did
Emerge and get started in the country such that you can find it in places. We were just mentioning at the um,
there's a berliner of
Restaurant my god at the meeting at the new york city 2600 meetings
You can buy a club monte right there because they've gotten it into a store that's at the meeting location. That's brilliant. Um,
we don't want to get into all the you know, the timeline of everything but there are good people that are that are
interested and working on it and
The long and the short of it is a lot of people really have to be into whatever drink is successful
otherwise
You gotta have a lot of money to really distribute it everywhere and and there's it's so
Saturated in general like energy drinks in the u.s. Come on. I mean
big big corn syrup is is is well entrenched so
Uh, I don't know we we differentiate it and it is it is around it's around the world, which is spectacular
You can go to so many other different places canada
um many places we've been to so
please
Seek it out support it if if it interests you and um, there will be more of it. Uh, if you uh,
if you consume it, but it's not something that we want to be like
Responsible for we got it started. We got people interested
Yeah, and you know, um, I didn't really get to uh go into much of the updates with hope we have
um
All kinds of food options that we are working out for on campus this time for the for the hope conference
Uh, and uh, we have a bunch of them and it's possible. I mean, you know, this is something that I could see happening
Maybe we can get whoever is distributing club mate now
uh to to uh, uh send a bunch over or maybe even sell it themselves
um, if um, we can get somebody to take that on and and look into the possibility of doing it without
Burdening us with more soda distribution. We'll be happy to uh, you know open it up there
That said though that said I don't want to be a debbie downer here
Soda is not good for you. If you drink soda all the time, it's not good for you
And there's a study recently, right? Okay. Okay. What's the study?
Wait, which is this if you drink one soda a week or something or one soda a day?
It's it's supposed to be bad for you. Y'all look it up
Yes, there's uh, there's stuff that has been found out, uh, I think
um
Just generally and water is a fantastic
Uh drink if if um, you're at all interested in hydrating yourself gila go
um, really quickly as a
diet coke fiend myself
um
Listener, I will say that I hopped on the club mate website really quickly
um
and
apparently
Uh cost plus world market carries it
nationally
um, you can order it from them online if you're so inclined and
Seeing that you are in detroit. I will tell you that the world market
in
ann arbor
um
Carries it there are four world market locations in the state of michigan all four carry it also consider ordering it online
um, and if anybody has
Yeah, again
People are saying club mate booth at hope would rule. Yes, it would find someone to do it and that would be great
Yeah report back to us on um, if a lot of that is is updated because we've we've fielded inquiries
We've looked uh offhand
Ourselves and seen as much when we look around we're you know
We're excited when when people try to to to get get it into different retailers. I know retail itself is difficult
So, uh, we we had done mail order for a long time and uh, you know, it it it is
Uh, it's interesting to know what's update up to date and what's working where people are actually finding it and as far as
uh booth, you know, we we still have uh,
The uh palettes we have the ability to move it around. We we even have some
Uh reusable crates some of those yellow crates. We have those if people are interested in buying those
That would free up some space for us. Yeah, we actually have
a lot of them, uh, I was gonna
Bring them to some they're useful. They're useful for all kinds of things. I don't know
I think people that go to camping or like car shows, you know, uh barbecues
uh sporting events like tailgate parties, maybe you you want one of these crates, but um
yeah, we have a bunch of those and if it was uh, you know, we we could bring uh all the
the uh soda related
Infrastructure to manage that but we would um, you know, we would want to find out. Uh,
The best retailer or distributor that maybe could manage it themselves instead of us, you know
They they could have a spot like we offer
um, you know space for any kind of vendor at the event and they could um
Be able to offer it to this. This is something we have to make sure it's okay with the university
Let's make sure it's okay with the other food vendors there
And maybe we just have one of the food vendors deal with it. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know, you know
We don't want to get too, uh drawn into that
But uh if we can make it simple and easy to understand and uh, you know people just handle it
Uh, then that's something that could you know
It shouldn't be the main thing that gets you to a conference though is drinking soda
So and it's going to be hot you need water, you know, that's true water is again
It's always good and water new york city water is better than any waters. That's that is a fact
Um, okay. So we do have those. Um, actually the updates about food have not yet gone out, but yeah, it's it's it's very positive
Uh, it's uh, some one of the things that we took away from 2022
Where people had to walk off campus not too far, but you know across the street and and a block over
uh, those places are still there obviously, but of course you
You'd like to have places nearby in the actual place where you're attending the conference and that's what we're going to have this year
Uh, but hotels we um, we mentioned this a few weeks ago and it's been it's been torture
Trying to make connections with the right people, but we finally did and we have a really super good deal
Uh at the nearby marriott hotels, uh, these are um,
Down the block aways. It's a couple of bus stops away a direct route that goes directly to the um the conference
uh from the hotel
um, and um
If you go to hope.net and click on lodging you'll see the rates and and they're really good compare the rates to what they are
Normally and what other places are offering and you'll see wow
This is this is a pretty good deal for the period of the conference
Uh, and we also have the um the off-campus dormitory
Uh, which is uh even cheaper than that
And that's that's in a different direction. That's also very easy to get back and forth from uh, and it's you know
We we likely will have more options coming up in the weeks ahead. We'll announce that but that's what we have right now
So we can't really say what about this? What about that? You know right now?
This is what we've worked out hotels two hotels
Uh, they're next to the emerald pub which is a great dive bar and a favorite place for people to hang out
And and trade stories and and get reacquainted and things like that
And we have the uh, the dormitory, uh, which is just good for um, uh
you know if you're coming in from far away and you just want to stay in a cheap place and
Spend most of your time at the conference
I couldn't think of a more perfect place than that because under 100 bucks a night you get to put your head down someplace
And and just make your way back and forth
Uh, it'll be it'll be fun. It'll be an adventure
That's all I got are there any other questions there, um, yeah
Um, we could open up. We're we're good. Carry on. All right. Well hope.net. That's where you get all the updates on that and um,
You want to just open up phones? We can do i'm ready to go other stories, but you know, uh, i'd rather hear from listeners
Um, okay. 802-321-4225 802-321-HAC is our telephone number
Uh, feel free to call. Um, please keep in mind. There's other people that want to call as well. So, uh,
You know 45 minute phone calls don't really help many people
uh, and um
About to hear what you're up to any any feedback on things we've discussed any questions ideas
uh experiences
Yeah, and and the ringer is on right carl
Is it hot or not
It wasn't on but there were no calls. We would have heard it
From a distant handset, but it's now on it's going to be very loud when someone does call
So maybe that sweetens the deal a little so if you want to make us jump out of our seats
Uh, this is your opportunity 802-321-4225. Does anybody have that toll free number? Somebody was mentioning
I think I think we're having a phone call. I'm picking up. Yes something. What's the toll free number?
The toll free number is one eight three three seven five five twenty six hundred
All right. All right, you can try calling that from overseas, but I don't think it's going to work
Let's uh, take a phone call. Good evening here on off the govertime. Go ahead
Yes, um, yes, you know bike dances who's this I mean a bike i'm sorry well you got to identify who is this
Who's on the line who's calling who's on the line
A caller id this is a fcc requirement that callers identify themselves
You don't have to give you a real name. Just whatever name you're comfortable with something we can call you
My name is bernie s no, it's not
It's not
And if you're not gonna if you're not gonna take this telephone call seriously, we're going to have to terminate it
Okay, do you not like your name rebel do you not like your name because
Is it wrong for us to call you rebel because that's what you've been known by for almost a century now
Yeah, yeah, is that his self-styled name or was that yeah, i'm not sure maybe we just called him that as as you know
An insult and i'd like to make sure that that's not how his name came to be
Well, if you'd like to you know, well no little history of the rich the rebel name, you know, I got it in college
Rich the rebel that's okay. Okay. You got it in college. What did you do in college to be called a rebel?
well, actually, no, no, no because I had uh, I when I went to texas, I uh got a uh,
confederate flag and you know, because I just
We don't want to hear this
That's why that's what they call me and that's you know
There was some playing with the computers and the phones and the you know, and like, you know
so that's like kind of got the handle from that, you know, just like
You know rebellious of you know
The rebellious kid, you know playing with the phones and the computers, you know, okay
It's a assorted etymology, but aren't we all rebels in our own way?
But not that kind of rebel, but you know, just you know a different uh our own unique rebels
All right, anyway this rebel here, uh, what's what's on your mind and let's let's make it fast well
Okay, I was calling I was going to go to a restaurant on long island. That's now closed
I didn't know this. I looked on google, but it still has the phone number
Okay, and when you call the phone number it doesn't remember how you used to go
The number you have reached five one six, whatever whatever it's been disconnected or whatever now
Listen to what happens always are calling places that are closed and expecting to get something from is this really how you spend your day?
Calling things that aren't there anymore
No, I wanted to go to this restaurant that you know, I wanted to eat at this restaurant
But I didn't know it was closed and I was surprised it was closed and I I the phone number was still there on google
So I just decided to call it just to see what happened and I didn't get due to the number you have reached
Whatever, whatever has been disconnected. Listen to what I get, please
You know, he's gonna do this and he's not gonna get what he thinks he's gonna get and he's gonna say well
What happened there?
And let me try that again i'll put you on hold and it's just never gonna end
Did I mention the long periods of silence too that go along with this
Why are you saying the number out loud
You know, normally you make a phone call it goes through right away i'm not sure what all this um
The extra time is you know
Why does it not right you want to hold it every time rebel every time
Okay, hold on
Everything I said that was going to happen happened
Everything
No, you know what happens if supervision I can't do a three-way call on my cell phone because if supervision doesn't kick in
It doesn't let you do three ways. This is something we've known since the 1980s
No, I know that but i'm just saying
Okay, all right. I'll just demonstrate it verbally because you go giggle giggle giggle. Hello. Remember you have reached
the
No, I think it says
It does not
I don't know what you know what I
Wish I could have recorded it or something. I don't know
Yeah, something like no it's it's something like
We can help you find the business another business in the area since the business you're looking for or you're calling it's not available
Please hold on or whatever and then it connects you
Directory assistant automated directory assistant. That's it. What city is something to that effect?
And it makes sense when you think about it something something goes out of business
I'm going to a more quiet area. Okay there the cantaloupes
Yeah, so the bitches the businesses that you don't
You know, it's not just the number you've reached has been disconnected. It says it's like an advertisement
Exactly. Yes, something goes out of business. You obviously are still interested in whatever you're calling them about
So since they're no longer there, maybe this can help you sounds like you know a call back to uh,
the old days where operators would basically
You know pass you along to the undertaker that happened to be married to them. No, no
And that's how the struggle got started
Even if it would be to be a recording saying an intercept recording gonna be over. She has whatever has been disconnected
You know, right now it's the same
Yeah, it's an advertising thing, you know
We can help you find another business in the area because the business you've called is not available
But I don't think it's the business of doing this because i've called a couple of numbers like this
That have been disconnected like I think it's just businesses, but I want to see
I think you should go to that restaurant and just see what happens
You know what I just thought of something the number
You know, uh when my aunt moved she disconnected her number and we got the recording
The number you will reach, you know, there's a lot of people move and don't tell you their new number
That does happen that does happen
Rebel, we're gonna have to move on so make one more point and make it quick
Yeah, you know bike dance is now owned by a russian company
Okay
Uh, so tick tock is russian. Maybe you want to call congress and tell them that
Uh, gila you have something to add to this discourse, um, I do well actually I
Weirdly enough have a listener question for rebel. So feel compelled to pass it along. All right, we got a question coming. Don't blow it
Um, okay rebel someone we are asked
Um, how does one subscribe to your youtube channel in case someone just wants unlimited rebel go to richard?
Compton wait a minute. Not richard. Wait a minute. What is the youtube channel? Hold on
Um now hold on. Um, not hold on
Okay, wow, I I I
How did you subscribe to my youtube?
Um rebel, is it the account you're signed in on now?
The one that i'm signed in on now
Because we see the name that you use in the chat
So that is that's the one that yeah, you just go to that. Yeah, that's my uh channel on uh, google or youtuber
I get some contacts. So gala. What is that?
If you click on that name and go to that youtube channel, that's my you I can't believe to do this for you
but um, unfortunately listeners
I can do that because I have fancy mod powers. So rebel, is it? Okay if I
Go to your channel and drop that in the chat
So if people want just unedited rebel into their veins they could do that, is that all right?
Okay, um, you know one bug before you do that
Why don't you do that first and see what's on my check because I only have one
Video there that I recorded you want us to check in on your on your channel now on youtube you you do
In fact have only one video there. Do you want us to play the video and make sure it's okay grand central
The one from grand central. Yes
Six minutes from grand central five years ago. Yep, six years ago. Excuse me
All right, is that okay to share?
That's that's okay to say careful
You don't want to cause a panic
Well, I mean they have just people just uh
You know, you know, whatever videos they want to see I mean what um, you know
well, they only have one there so, um, not much of a choice, but
uh now is there is there is there a reason we can't say his channel name over over the um,
The whatever it is. We're talking on youtube. I mean we surely can
But because the link is currently um
Um, hold on
If it were richard, whatever I would happily say that but currently it is um
Hold on. Sorry. Oh my god
This this spreads this is catching you hold on. Oh my god rebel. What have you done?
Currently the channel is u c underscore zero zero l eight l t t nine s r y two t e m e v o p v w
So it'll just be easier if people click the link. I put the chat. What the hell are you thinking rebel?
Why would you have a name like that?
Wait a minute. What do you want?
Oh my god, do you seriously want me to repeat that again? Don't repeat that
You can click on your own name. Can't you?
Wait, no. No, did you say p a s q u i n u c c i?
right
No, because right now the link for your channel is not personalized because it's brand new and you don't have enough followers
Oh, hey, did you enjoy saying that gila?
Yes, can't you tell by my face how exciting that was see this doesn't have enough
People get to see us on video or each other. Well, I just put it up
I mean, I just no, you know what I did. I had a youtube channel, but I was doing something on another site like uh, like
on another um
Site and I was getting ads and spam in my my gmail
So I I changed that gmail account to this new gmail account
So that's why I changed my google account ads and spam on gmail. Imagine that. Oh, you know, by the way, just just to uh,
Step out of this for a second. Um, we sent an announcement out today
And it appears to have uh met with gmail's approval
We have not been relegated to spam from what i've heard and that is definitely yes a celebration all around
Uh, i got it. Ernie. I'm gonna have to ask you to go to a more quiet place
I don't know what he's talking about now. Sorry, you know rebel. Um, you know out of um,
Our interest in your well-being we're going to disconnect now
Open up the phone lines to others
Please be careful and um, yes, uh, try to avoid going to abandoned places that no longer exist
Um, we will talk to you again. Good night
and our phone number
eight zero two
Three two one four two two five and that was just about everything that I could have expected
Uh alex, how are you doing out there?
I'm hanging in there. I'm, you know bouncing in and out. My connection isn't great, but you sound fine now
Yeah
Yeah, I don't know it's uh, it's uh, it's up and down but i'm doing all right
When you say something important, I think that's when it breaks up
It generally does that's right. Yeah. Uh, and by the way, this is a
So it's a little after midnight here in lun
Yeah
It's a little after midnight in one is what we got
Uh, was there more to that believable that this happened again or so annoying but it's it's one of these weird times
When the uk is only four hours ahead, that's right of the united states, right?
Because we went to daylight savings time and and you guys did not
That's right, that's right. We haven't done it. We don't
It was here until march 30th, I believe and something you can blame george w bush for that because george w bush extended daylight savings time
months or weeks or whatever
That's yeah
He's not one of the many things
For which he can be blamed. Yeah, sure
Definitely not number one. Oh, uh, so from number 802-321-4225
Uh, please people you see what happens if you don't dial fast enough. Um, uh, so call us and uh,
We could have a nice conversation about something
that uh
Yes, go ahead. We we did have a couple of listener suggestions that we put a timer on rebel
How do you do that? How do you do that?
When he calls start a timer for two minutes and when it's done, that's the end
You ever walk four cats down a street in the city at the same time on leashes? It would be like that
and nobody wins
Nobody we already we have like an established rapport
Is that what that is? Okay
I just feel like I mean even though you said like one last point it went on for like it just fragments every
Every
Retort fragments to something else. I knew what it was or i'm sorry like fractals
I don't know how to describe it
802-321-4225 we can we can have an early night folks if nobody wants to call in that's for sure
We can we can do that country code one eight zero two three two one four two two five
uh, and um
Yeah, uh, no, um alex
You're you're gone face wise video that is I can't string a sentence together
So maybe that makes your wi-fi better when you don't have video
I mean quite possibly right? I mean the the idea of being
That I would have more bandwidth from my audio if my video wasn't on of course
You turned on the video and say that so i'm not sure maybe yeah
I I did I did so so we'll see but hey, we have a call. We do have a call
We do have a call and I believe that call is connected and we're going to say good evening
You're on off the hook over time. Go ahead
Good evening. Uh, I just got a question for hope. Do you have to have attended before to um,
Volunteer. Oh, no, I would be willing to uh, so, you know even pay I just feel like volunteering might be a good way to
I don't know acquaint myself with the whole convention. I'll tell you volunteering is the best way to uh,
Acquaint yourself with the entire hacker community because you just wind up
Seeing all kinds of cool things meeting people helping people
Uh, it's it's what a lot of people do when they go to hacker conferences is just dive in and become a part of it
So i've gone to a lot of conferences, but i've never been to hope but i've always wanted to go to hope cool
Well, we look forward to having you i've actually worked with you before like but uh, I don't know
Uh-huh
i've always been interested in hope and just wanted to
To see if you needed to have attended before to be able to like pitch in
No, uh, you know, basically what what you should do is email volunteers at hope.net. Tell us what you're interested in doing
Uh, somebody will get back to you and uh, we'll we'll coordinate things but it's um, I know i'd seen um,
Andrew post about rodent. Uh-huh a few like a couple years ago. Does he is he still over that?
I I probably I mean, I don't know for sure who is involved in what at this point, but I would not be surprised
Okay, what was that email address again, it's volunteers at hope.net
And we can just go
Or you just go to the hope.net web page and you'll see a section
Uh that probably describes it better than i'm describing it now, but um, it's it's fairly easy to get in touch with us
All right, cool. Well, I will probably be uh shooting you all an email. Thanks. Okay. Thanks for your interest
And we look forward to seeing you in july
Oh, yeah, for sure. Take care. Bye
Gila go ahead speaking of hope we have a listener question
Uh people who bought tickets online. Are we getting them via mail or email?
Uh, you are getting them via email and it will be a bit more down the road when you when you actually get them
and uh
Let me point out there are two different kinds of tickets
There are the in-person tickets and there are the virtual tickets now the virtual tickets are
Quite important because that's a way of supporting the conference. Even if you can't make it to the conference physically
and um getting those attendees registered
Enables us to invest more into the conference so we can do more
Uh, and everything is just put right back into it
Uh, and that allows us to to have a successful event. So, uh, please
Check out the website at hope.net. All the information on tickets is there all the links and um
Yeah, if you're interested in participating in any way
Rob, did you have something?
Uh, yeah, just uh regarding the caller who was asking about volunteering
um, I can say that I've been volunteering since the very first hope I went to in 2000 and
Uh, i've been put to work at the conference every time since in one way or another
So yeah, it's a it's a great way to get involved a great way to meet people
I've made some great friends over the years just from that
And you know when we travel to other other conferences, we always try to get involved
However, we can to help out look hope would not be possible without volunteer effort
That's just a fact and when we were doing it in midtown manhattan
It was you know, uh defying all the odds to even have it there in the first place
But the fact that we are able to do this is our 15th conference now
um, it's it's because of volunteers because you know, we don't go the corporate route because
That's how you spend a thousand dollars for attendees per conference. You know, that's those those
They're everywhere these these big corporate security conferences cost a fortune and they're not nearly as interesting as what we do at hope
So we get there by uh people volunteering
uh on every level and
um, nobody gets paid nobody gets paid to do hope except for the vendors the people who uh, you know,
um sell us equipment or or rent us equipment or the venue or things like that, but nobody organizing it is uh,
It all goes right back into the conference and we understand it's it's really kind of counterintuitive to how most people
Um are gainfully employed or how they operate in this system, especially in the u.s
Uh, we tend not to move unless incentivized and we really hope that the camaraderie
The proximity to people that you're meeting for the first time. They're also working on the event. We hope that that is
um
That that is a incentive enough to be a part of the team to make something really special happen
for other hackers who may also be attending for the first time and um, they'll benefit from whatever kind of
you know, uh
technical thing you
bring to it or just
uh extra extra pair of hands it is so incredibly appreciated and i'm saying specifically because
very often you kind of you kind of have to pay at every every
turn to produce a show, uh as good as
What hope has been so we really really value people that are excited motivated enthusiastic
And want to work kind of side by side with other hackers
Yeah, it's hacker ingenuity that gets us through all of this figuring out a way to do something when everyone else tells you it's impossible
Or that you're not doing it, right or that this is how everybody else does it or you know
You have to spend the fortune to get this result
we're scrappy we figure out ways to get around and uh, we do that through your helps and we we uh,
We're so appreciative of that. We have a phone call. Good evening. You're on off the hook overtime. Go ahead
Hello folks, it's johnny fusion johnny fusion i haven't heard from you in a while
Yeah
How you been in a while, but i'm doing okay. Well, that's good
You don't sound happy about it. Sounds like there's a butt here
I've been well like friday and yesterday. I spent a lot of time in the emergency department
Getting iv fluids because my creatinine
Is high i'm dehydrated
you know, so it's just
I was sick. I was sick friday
And you know because i'm immunocompromised
And kind of delicate my transplant team always wants me to err on the side of caution
And get checked out so i'm a little tired from all the hospital this week. Well, yeah, who wouldn't be that's uh,
That's uh, that sucks to hear that but it sounds like you made it through. Okay
Yeah, I mean I didn't I never stayed overnight they sent me home both times
You know, they just they just want me to follow up and stuff
But that's not why i'm calling. Okay. I'm calling because listening to the radio show
I thought it was really good this week
and
The real enemy like I think like one of you said
Like maybe this is bad legislation with you know outlawing tick tock
But if we can get
congress
Just talking about surveillance capitalism
I think that might be a step in the right direction because surveillance capitalism
Is the driving force of why so much of the internet is crap now
True true. You're never getting to say the phrase surveillance capitalism though
You know they will refuse to do that but if you can make it something else like
Surveillance woke ism. Maybe they'll they'll
Buy into that
I don't know. Oh, right, right, right
Just just let them just let them know that liberals want to sell all the data
And then and then they'll they'll they'll crusade against it
They'll make it talking points and then democrats will capitulate like they always do and we'll get something done
Pretty much. Yes
Yeah, it's like so like some of my articles like i've touched on
surveillance capitalism
You know, and it's just it's it's wild how it came about
Like i'm a long time internet user like my first internet account
Was a shell account
Right, just basically you got linux commands
or unix commands
and um
Unix programs to get on irc to get on usenet to do your email
All from the terminal program. So that's kind of like how old school I was
and
I remember
That first piece of spam on usenet
Where someone was trying to sell green card services?
And people were all up in arms. How dare you do something commercial on the internet?
and
Look how far we've come
You know
I forget which administration it was
Said okay, we're going to open up the internet to business and figure out a way to
Have business interests on the internet and I mean that was the beginning of the end of where we find ourselves now
Because for a long time, you know during the dot-com boom and crash
People didn't know how to make money on the internet
Yeah, it was for communication it was educational it was
you know, very idealistic and a lot of the values that we have now came about through that, you know, the the
Supporting a freedom of speech and and not having fees for every action that you take when communicating with people
um that all comes about as a result of that the prevalence of of os's like linux and
uh unix-based systems
It's all because of the way the internet originally developed and it's sad to see some of what it's become
I wonder if maybe we just need to have
different networks that maybe you know exchange
some information between them but
Definitely have different philosophies in in operation
Well people try that building on top of the internet, you know, like i've seen. Um
Well, like mastodon is federated
Right
And you know, I mean that was the original model of how things were done on the internet usenet was federated
email is the oldest
federated system we have
You know, so like the internet promoted
decentralization
Right. I mean that's part of the hacker ethos too
Is not having things be centralized
And for something that was designed to be decentralized
It sure has a lot of centers to it now
Because what do you do when you go on the internet you go on youtube you go on facebook you go on other social media
You know that are owned by these
by billionaires
and there's
You know that like I have my own websites and stuff, you know, it's i'm just a little guy on the internet
You know, but because of how the internet's done i'm like i'm like buried
Right because
I'm, just i'm just there writing words or sharing my ideas or sharing software
Or you know, like I have a game that I did for
for ludum dare
one jam
You know, I got all these nice little things on the internet not making any money at all
But people just don't go to the internet to connect anymore, you know, it's just it's these gated
Sites
You know choked with algorithms to engage and enrage
Yeah, I hear the
the kind of analysis people are making
Yeah, I hear the
the kind of analysis, but it's I mean that there's so many different angles
to
Where we've ended up and the emergence. I mean even the early things like aol
prodigy all those like early
mass subscriber based sort of portals
or whatever they were they were like
walled in and it's kind of we're almost
Um devolving to some of that or as like he was
Suggesting like, okay. Well, we'll have different ways that maybe pass through one another
that's kind of funny because the
in
in the grander scheme and a lot of um
uh
international
connectivity
That there's resistance to that
But there's also compelling
Difficulties with the connectedness and the ways that the networked society is being
uh
How shall I say abused?
by um
less than chill actors
so, uh
yeah, like we don't really want to cut off connections to other places because that's
It's integrated into commerce and other things but at the same time
We have to understand like
pretty wide-eyed like the risks
and
I go back to like the example of younger people
being outraged that software
They're using might go away
If you I mean I can understand
Growing up in a world where the internet was always there
right and
The idea that something that would go away on the internet is like anathema to your idea of something that was never not there
In the first place and that you get really really upset, especially when your social life has been commodified into one
piece of software
and the idea that
That company is being disrupted by the government and therefore cutting you off from your social life
I can understand the righteous indignation
And where that all comes from but it's like me getting mad at having paid for microsoft word like 20 times in my lifetime
you know that just has happened to people with software things that they've they've done over and over again as
Companies formed and reformed and transformed and stuff
Like yeah, there's been plenty of business practices over the years that have screwed up screwed over users
and and uh
You know had that captive
Subscriber base and I think cory doctor has talked about it already. He's characterized it. It's the switching cost, right? And
so yeah, you you have to
You know suck it up and decide you're gonna like do friends elsewhere or not
You know go for the convenience of it being commodified in the way. That's so convenient and fun
you know, there's fun ways of making friends and I don't know I find as
You've pointed out it's getting crappier and crappier
I want to be online less and less unless it's actually for real doing something like with my own site or with you know
meaningful communication on the oldest
Federated protocol being email and you know
Old school stuff. Yeah, like technical stuff. Yeah, but these kind of like
uh
Bubble gum apps like just stuff that feels
Fly by night like
I don't want my social life to be
Organized around that solely and I think people who've been on the internet for a while like we're even talking about it
When we and and brands are really familiar with it
They're on like 10 platforms and individuals are on 10 platforms or whatever, you know, like
people may still be on x or twitter and and uh
Also on macedon and also on youtube and also on instagram and also on facebook they're on all of these things
To get whoever is sort of there or active and not being hostile or or otherwise like socializing
but
they're the the chaos of it, I think is something we're being really conditioned to and for a lot of people that
Also want to like live
reality
and um
Are willing to make the effort. It's almost better to just not try to
Have your life be captive in software that way I just don't
I don't find that the affinity and the closeness and all of that is is
As strong as it's being sold to people
Like it's yeah, it's as shallow as we ever thought it was I think but maybe i'm wrong
Maybe I mean i'm not I can't judge everybody's networks. Maybe they're better at it or you know, they're doing
Doing it the right way. Sure. I mean that's that's fine. But
um
things change over time and and uh, I just I think that people should get used to we've seen things fall apart companies that
make bad choices and that happens we've had
Jason scott talk about
Site after site and community after community geo cities. I don't know. There's so many examples of things that have been just
Imploded I mean
I started on
Many different like we went through many different social media sites
Just to gain access to see what the buzz like what people were talking about to see how it works
and then
You just abandon it. I can't even begin to talk about how many
of those types of things that i've
checked out and then abandoned just because it's
It's not suiting me not me personally I discovered I was on whatsapp today apparently I
Opened an account years ago and forgot about it
Yeah, so I think I think dr. O has talked about this
And I think you know to bring it back to congress
like there there could be legislation to
Uncrapify
the internet
and one of the things would be
to get rid of the cost of leaving
And you do that by making everything interoperable
You know kind of kind of like how telephones worked any telephone can call any other telephone
Right. So treat this like communications. It's it's um, it's really hard. I mean a lot of
That stuff was opened up and I mean we found how that was used
in
you know political scandal, but in other ways like
As soon as that opens up and it's used in ways that companies don't like they cut it off
And I mean the concept of like unified communications
You know cross and inter-platform communications is a very real thing and there are a lot of different ways you can connect
divergent platforms and
Many, you know voice over ip and other kind of software
Milestones really
Made a lot more of that possible, but the willingness and the cooperation is I think the hard part
especially
internationally and and otherwise
it's it's a nice idea, but the companies want to be companies and
They benefit they don't they don't benefit as much
when you're
talking to other to users outside of it and it's just
They have a product they designed it with that life's, you know, it's to work this way and
They're very
resistant I in my opinion to
Try to open up to different ways of doing things
Well, you know, you know my personal solution to that
Is to remove the profit motive completely and dismantle capitalism
Well, that's a that's a tall order. I don't think we have enough time this hour. Yeah. Um,
Yeah resistance to that. Um, I
I get the temptation to go there. I've you know, i'm an adult so I mean
I definitely
looked at that in my education and matriculation and so on, uh,
but
It's kind of what's going on right now, and I think having more control over it would would benefit us
Um, sure i'm, you know, i'm idealist. What would we do instead? I guess but i'm also pragmatic
And I understand that capitalism is very entrenched
Right now but the divine right of kings like ursula k le guin
said
That the divine right of kings was one so entrenched
And thought impossible to get rid of sure and we basically we basically have so I mean change is possible
But it'll take method
To what to what?
Um, well capitalism was only invented like 600 years ago and in the uh
in the blink of human history
In in in the span of human history, it's just an eye blink
You know
And basically we have to have compassion-based politics
Politics
Working for common good a lot of it maybe some more
collectivism
You know instead of everyone looking out for themselves
and rewarding greed
Instead have things be community-based
Go ahead rob
You know, I I think there's something to be said for that because you know, we maybe can't dismantle capitalism at least anytime soon
but you can choose in the
Uh to the extent that you want to have a social presence on the internet and find community over the internet
You can take the capitalism out of that by not using for-profit social media
um, I I was I have been terminally online for decades now and in one form or another and I
I went to all the big sites, you know hopped around them most of them. I was on for a bit. I recently
Deleted my twitter finally. Um, I deleted my reddit account and uh some other stuff and I realized not only
Does it feel a lot more like the old idealistic internet when I can find my social presence to mainly the fediverse federated stuff
I'm on mastodon. I'm on lemme now
um, and a couple of smaller forums and that those are my daily drivers and
I realize not only is it a lot less aggravating. I'm not having algorithms trying to make me upset for clicks. I'm not having
Um ads try to sell me things and I just feel like better in general
And you know, it's it's smaller than it was but I liked it when it was smaller and i'm i'm having a good time
so there there are ways to kind of modulate how much you want to participate in this world of sort of
For-profit toxic social media under the control of nut cases and uh, you know
Still find your way out there and find your community and find your people
And uh, so there there are still good ways to do that. Can I ask you rob? Uh, you deleted your your twitter account
Uh, does that mean all of your tweets just are gone?
They are I I downloaded an archive. So I have them for historical reasons if I want them
They're they're also on archive.org and things like that, but I they're no longer sitting out there
Contributing to a shareholder value for a company that I no longer wanted to be propping up
um in the extent that to the extent that my my
Measly presence on there ever did well, I mean, I understand that I understand the thinking behind that but um,
wouldn't you just leaving and not participating also send a message without
Having to wipe out some of your history because you know
These are your words. These are things you've said and people still deserve to read your thought your thoughts and see your experiences
And how else would they get to do that?
This is true and there is something to be said for that and I did have to
Do some real hard thinking about it for quite a while before I took that step
I was basically since the beginning of this year not participating actively
and I
I just I didn't want to continue
Having my words being part of that and yeah
Maybe it's sad to lose all those uh years and years of history and amusing tweets and things
I said to people that were enjoyed
And also friendships I made there were people that I miss now because there's we had no other way of keeping in touch
but uh
In the in the old days everything was kind of ephemeral online
You were not expected to have something be out there
Uh as part of your history for public perusal forever
And I think maybe there was something lost in that and so I i'm embracing that in kind of a new way now
Go ahead alex
Um, I I think what rob said was is is right on
Um, and I I think all the social media garbage is just incredibly toxic and harmful
In general, i'll just take a broader view of it, but I wanted to say it's it's it's ten to one here
I'm, really flagging i'm totally exhausted. It's been a long day. So i'm going to say good night to everybody and just when
That started working
Yeah, I didn't get cut cut off and the thing is are we on next week?
Last I checked we were yes
Okay. All right. Good. Well, then I will see everybody next week because I need to go to bed desperately
All right. I'm very much flagging here. So
Good night, everybody
Uh, it was great to see everyone and to hear from everybody
And uh, I look forward to next week
All right, everyone say good night to alex here
Good night
Sleep well, see you. I will I hope all right
And uh
That was alex. Okay. Uh, johnny, we're gonna move on any final thoughts from you
um
Just one, you know
There there is a reason why people use social media is that you know, that's where everyone is and when I was
Dying like I couldn't leave the house. I was on oxygen
and stuff
So like facebook was the way I kept in touch with my real life social circle
You know because that's where all my real life in my oldest social circle
was
so, I mean
It's like a double-edged sword and we got to think about the people that would otherwise be isolated
with
Social media. No, it can it can be a godsend in certain situations, but it can also
You know be a heavy anchor when you don't want one
Uh in other situations it becomes a crutch when you know, you should be
Out doing other things but again keeping in touch with people. Yeah, there's definitely good to it. There's no question about that
Thank you, thank you for your time and we'll
I'll hang up and we can go to the next caller. All right, good hearing from you. Thanks, Johnny. Take care
And our phone number eight zero two three two one four two two five I imagine this will probably be the last call so whoever
is calling now
uh, that will be your your uh
Legacy tonight is to be the last call eight. Oh two three two one four two two five country code one
And uh that toll-free number again rob
That toll-free number again is
Uh, eight three three seven five five twenty six hundred. I can remember the last part. I can't remember the rest
one day one day
Or I could just write it down I suppose all right, it sounds like we have another phone call
Do we in fact have a phone call kyle?
Okay
And good evening. You're on off the go time. Go ahead
Good evening, uh, i've called a minute ago, but I felt like I needed to call back
Uh talking about the de-shitification of the internet
Uh, I just wanted to you know kind of remind people of cdc's project they're working on
It's still kind of a baby. It hasn't you know bore much fruit yet, but they would yes
Seems pretty cool. Uh-huh. And uh, also I just wanted to
Drop a little piece of news that came out on the 11th
That I didn't see anywhere cover whatsoever and I thought it was pretty crazy, okay, but a group siege
they uh hacked air asia and
Like they already dumped all of their source code and a ton of private information. Okay, I didn't see that anywhere
Probably because there's so many stories like that. There's probably so many stories like that companies being hacked
very true
So all their data has been has been exposed or is it ransomware what
They've dumped it to the public. They have a telegram channel and i'm not going to mention it
But uh, they said it's 2.2 gigs of uh data
For air asia the source code and uh private information i'm assuming including customers
It kind of freaked me out because I was just flying air asia
But yeah, wow bring that up
You never know. What's uh, what's going to be compromised next?
Nope, all right
All right. Have a good night. Thanks. Thanks for the update
And technically that's not another call because the person called the second time
So, okay, we'll open it up because legally we would be on the hook for this
Uh 802-321-4225
So, uh call if you haven't called before and it will count as
A new call and that'll be the last call for tonight 802-321-HACK
Or 800. I'm sorry 833
I'm gonna get it out. Um, three nine nine
No
It's seven five five
No, there's a three in there somewhere
Really? No, it's eight three three. Those are the threes in okay. Those are the threes. Yeah
Seven five five twenty six hundred if you say so. All right. Uh, good evening. You're on off the go time. Go ahead
Hey guys, how are you? This is like the old days. Uh, is it like the old days?
Yes, like going back to the 90s and the 80s the name is howard
Uh, you gotta have the uh, coke thing in my backyard over st. John's
Yes, uh, hope is that well if you're in queens, I guess it is in your backyard
Well, i'm about a mile and a half away
That is awesome
I'm, sorry, the 12th 12th through the 14th of july. Yes
Yes
Through the 14th, yeah that weekend
Wow can't wait to uh to come over there, please do
Uh-huh
No that that's that's amazing. Uh because you know
We find queens to be such a cool place to be in and there's just so much to do and it's it's
The buses work really well in queens. I get you everywhere you need to go
Well, you can only yeah and I also have a repeat i'm a ham, oh wow i'm a ham operator, okay, well I
I know I know we're gonna have ham. Um, uh talks and uh, I I think a uh,
um a village or a
A table of um, what's the word i'm looking for workshop ham workshop
So if you want to get involved in that by all means, uh, write to us
Listen before we end this uh call
Uh, you guys still have the friday night get-togethers used to have in a city bank. What is it these days?
It's the same exact place
it's just the building is now called city group and uh,
It's the first friday of every month from about five to about eight or actually it goes beyond that gala
Did you have something to add to that?
Um, just a well first of all the it's now called the hue
Like the food court is called the hue and it's awesome court is called that but the building is still yes
The building is city court, but yes
Uh, we do have a question if the caller could identify themselves
Yeah
Awesome wow, how long you been a ham for?
Oh, let me see I got licensed in 1967. That's my first got licensed. I'm 69. So I'm an old pot
Wow, that is so awesome
Crossbar one and crossbar five you remember crossbar five. Wow. I just uh, it was better then i'm sorry
I sounded better. It sounded so much better. Oh, it did. I I mean
I was in an office. Uh, that was on 164th street
It was the office that they used for the world's fair and then they gave it to uh,
They gave it they gave it over to the queens area and that was no longer there now
It's all the internet
I know I know it's terrible. Remember how uh, how the ring tone sounded different for every central office where there was a one or five
Uh now everything sounds the same
Yeah, no more 2600 can't blow the phone lines off anymore. Nope. Nope. That does not work anymore
No more black boxes with a relay or a neon bulb and you just got a free phone call
Uh-huh, so how how has the ham community changed since 1967?
Well now it's very fun everybody if you're using voice over ip people using uh, you know, uh
Digital boats these days. This doesn't sound as good. I do like good old analog
Audio not the digital crap. Uh-huh
Sounds like the same thing
Right
Hey, I got a repeater over on uh, I got a repeater on 440 a big repeater to make it from the uh,
Of that school from the whole convention with a hundred milliwatts
Well, you know if uh, you want to show that off, um, we can definitely set you up at the conference if you're interested
I'll be coming around
Uh, I can't wait to see this and probably come down
I remember with the q guys in the uh 80s and 90s on wbai
Uh-huh. So now you're on wednesday. I thought I thought you guys had left bai for a while
No, no, we pretty much have been around for the duration. So every wednesday at seven
Every wednesday at seven, okay, i'll start listening again because that's how I found you tonight. Wow
How great you guys have a youtube
Uh-huh, we listen to you guys on youtube. That's pretty cool
Yeah, we get around, you know, and uh, please visit hope.net get more information about the conference and um,
We all look forward to seeing you
Yeah, well july will be coming around pretty soon I know really really soon it's scary
You have all the guys in the black coat and the uh black cars trying to figure out what everybody's up to. Yep
They're they're they're starting already
All right, howard great hearing from you, thanks. Thanks for calling
It's been a pleasure. All right. Take care
Bye
Wow, that's awesome
Ham from 1967 howard
That was great that call made me so happy. Yeah
And uh, yeah, we're gonna do ham radio stuff. So, uh, let's get that organized
Keep checking in hope.net for more details. Come one. Come all. Yeah, we have our hotel updates today
We're going to have more info on the venue and and some of the talks will be announced fairly soon as well
But we still have many openings for more talks panels
workshops villages
demonstrations performances
Displays whatever you can think of we have space we have
A lot of people who are really into this so visit hope.net
And plenty of links to click on to contact us or to get involved
Any final words before we sign off for the night?
Um
Seriously, if there is someone you know or love or are who menstruates pocket calendar and a felt-tip pen
Um, you want to set up a table at hope and we can just hand those out
Yeah, no get a ton of pocket calendars, it'll be great. Um
And I want to again thank the 50 people who have hung in with us for the last hour
uh, the chat is
Always fun was very lively this evening. Thanks to the new faces who are with us tonight
And we'll see you next week. All right. Good night, everybody
Good night, everybody