Where's the phone?
I found it. I found the phone.
You are listening to radio station WBAI 99.5 FM here in New York.
The time is just about 7 p.m. and a little change,
and it's time for another edition of Off the Hook.
Off the Hook
A very good evening to you.
The program is Off the Hook.
There are rumblings coming from parts unknown.
This is Rob T. Firefly here with you.
I am joined in the studio by Gila.
Good evening.
And out there in Skypeland, we have Alex.
And we have, also in Skypeland, Emmanuel.
And finally in Skypeland, last but not least, we have Kyle.
Our levels are a little low out there in Skypeland.
I'm going to see what I can do about that from here.
But in the meantime, how are you guys?
Thank you.
Thank you.
Hey, man, you'll hold that thought for one second because I don't think Skype land is coming through on the air.
Let me work on that for a moment. But in the meantime, Gila, how are you?
I am quite well. But I okay, I'm talking now. And so I heard about something crazy. Today, I was listening to a podcast and I heard a podcast ad. And they kept sharing ads for a social media site, like a video sharing site designed specifically for children. And it scared me to little bits and pieces.
And when we have Skype land back at reasonable levels, I would love to hear how we feel about that in terms of privacy implications, in terms of loosing little kids on the Internet.
And that has been bothering me all day to day.
So, okay, let's try this again. Skype land. Are you with us?
Hi, how are you?
There we are. That's much better. Sorry, this mixing board here is held together with some chewing gum and string.
Emmanuel and Kyle, once again, how are you guys?
Yeah, the more I think about it, I don't think the highway that I'm on right now, on the way to Ventura, is Ventura Highway that, you know, what was it, Eagles, America?
You know, one of those bands from the 70s did. Because, you know, the line, alligator losers in the air, first of all, I'm not sure what an alligator lizard is.
It's kind of redundant. But they don't have alligators in California. Why don't they have alligators in California?
I mean, it's hot. They should.
They should.
It's more like iguanas, I think. And, you know, other reptiles.
Well, regardless, it's not really relevant to the show, but we are on a highway, right, on the 101, heading towards Ventura, heading away from Los Angeles, which is where we spent the last few days.
And we are fresh out of DEFCON in Las Vegas, which we attended for the first time in quite a long time.
In fact, Kyle, this is the first time you ever attended DEFCON.
Yeah, it's my first time spending a significant amount of time in Las Vegas and also attending this massive, massive hacker conference.
And I will say, being in California, it's been a good place to recover from the Las Vegas Strip and come back to life.
Because, did you know that's out in the desert?
Yeah, it sure is.
It's really, really, if you want to listen to our other show and hear what we sounded like actually walking around outside, boy, that was something.
The whole place is just one big, massive mall or oven if you're walking around outside.
But I have to say, the conference was like a mecca because that's where all the cool people were.
And we met so many of our listeners, so many off-the-click listeners out there, so many people who have been doing what we've been doing for many years.
And it was really, really cool to connect with them, spend some time together, share stories.
That's sort of, when you have, what was it, 25,000, 30,000 people in the community gathering together, that's more than we're used to.
That's more than any of us, I think, have ever experienced.
You realize just how big the things that we talk about week after week really are, how much of an influence the things that we focus upon or the people we interview, how massive that is for a lot of people.
I heard this story so many times from people who said they would listen to the show on their way to school in the morning or they listen under the covers at night when their parents thought they were asleep.
You know, kids grew up on Off the Hook.
Kids grew up on WBAI, which I think is really, really awesome.
And hearing those stories, having people come up to us and say, you know, I wouldn't have gotten into this career of cybersecurity or computer science for it not, for hearing the things that you guys do or reading the things that you guys are up to.
And pretty much every instance, I always ask, so are you happy with the way things turn?
Because, you know, sometimes people might be, they might hold a grudge and say, you know, I would have done this if it wasn't for you.
But, no, they seem to be really, really happy that they chose this and that we were all together there.
You know, I say 25,000, 30,000 people, but it really felt like a tight community.
And it was also interesting because, if you recall, last year there were all kinds of hotels being hacked in Las Vegas.
It had nothing to do with DEFCON.
But what happened was basically attitudes changed in the hotel industry.
And having a hacker conference probably wasn't very high on their list.
So they kind of canceled the contract and forced them to move to the convention center, which is a really, really massive complex.
You know, having that many people, 25,000, 30,000 people, you'd think that would fill up a complex like that.
But actually, only one quarter of the complex was used by them.
So it really put a lot of things in perspective.
But overall, I'd say it was a very positive event, and we got to meet a lot of people and share a lot of stories and really get inspired.
This is awesome to hear because, you know, we have, I think, some familiarity of what it's like to lose a venue for something
or have things not go the way you expected when trying to set things up.
And it's great that things are working out.
And I think things tend to, especially when they've got a good community behind them like that, work out for the best.
And new solutions are found and new barriers are broken.
And things can keep going as well as ever.
Yeah, Rob, the space is really incredible.
I think it really allowed a lot of spreading out.
It did not feel like a crowded space.
But there were massive amounts of people, and just in every corner of the parts that were reserved for this event,
there was different exhibits and attractions, incredible visuals and signage
and the types of things that really make an event space work.
They did an outstanding job, especially for the first time in this space.
So I was really impressed.
I have nothing to compare it to, but to fill out just a space like that and make it something that feels intuitive,
like you can figure out where things are, really, I think, is a success from an attendee's point of view.
I should also point out, you know, this was in Las Vegas, but it wasn't in a casino.
It wasn't in a hotel, you know, where all this madness is happening.
I could go on for hours about how much I detest Las Vegas.
And, in fact, several occasions where we're screaming all sorts of obscenities towards the massive buildings that were frustrating us.
So because just trying to get out of one of them or trying to find a location is virtually impossible, you know,
for somebody walking around outside.
Either their pathetic monorail system doesn't really get you any closer to where you're going.
You're basically forced to keep walking through casinos.
You wind up in this world where you don't know if it's night or day.
The signs don't really lead you to where you need to go.
They lead you into another trap.
Well, none of that was happening at the conference.
The conference was in the convention center, and they built up.
You guys are starting to break up a little.
Oh, understood.
We were definitely asking ourselves, why are we here in the city?
But whenever in the event space itself, it made a little bit more sense.
Although it is a massive, spectacular hacker conference, and I do question some participation, you know, finding your way, finding your place there.
There are so many villages.
It's so vast.
To even begin to familiarize yourselves with different groups and different things, it just seems so daunting.
And I did ask myself many, many points, at many points, about sort of belonging.
And as hard as that is, I think that most everyone there did a really good job to welcome one another, and everyone, it seemed, wanted to have a good event.
And, you know, Rob, I was breaking up a little bit there.
Thank you for noticing, because it is an emotional thing, you know.
And I was feeling this community that, you know, has been there for a long time.
It's a massive community, representative of people from all over the world, and getting bigger every time.
But the values, the values really seem to have been preserved and fostered.
And that is what is important.
That's what I think we all must strive for.
Yeah, they used the word engage for their theme.
I think some of the other events do similar things, have, like, a phrase or something to center the theme around.
And they're really trying to conjure up the spirit of engagement and being in action, being a voice or being a participant in the kind of hacking the world needs.
I think that message was conveyed, and the sense of duty was incredibly powerful.
Speaking of messages that were conveyed, there was a message that was conveyed to us in our hotel room that I think we should share with our listeners.
First of all, are you able to hear us okay?
Yes, we can hear you fine now.
Okay, great.
We are in Southern California.
I think they should have coverage here, but we'll see.
We basically got this message on our TV screen.
I'm actually driving right now, kind of fast, in fact, so maybe I shouldn't be reading this.
So, Kyle, I'm going to hand that over to you.
You want me to read it?
Yeah, here, take that.
All right.
All right, take all this agreement.
All right, you can hold the wheel again.
Oh, this guy really just cut me off.
Okay.
Okay.
Sometimes I worry about those guys.
Okay, now you're breaking up again, and we're only getting small chunks.
All right.
So, the warning was in relation to a hacking that had gone on a year prior.
So, the announcement at the hotel read as follows.
Mm-hmm.
You ready?
Ready.
Dear valued guests, we remain committed to our guests' safety and understand the utmost
importance of cybersecurity.
A well-known hacking convention will be held in Las Vegas during your stay.
In an effort to increase the safety of our guests, we will be conducting scheduled, brief,
visual, and non-intrusive room inspections daily beginning Monday, August 5th.
Rooms with a privacy sign will be included as part of the inspection process.
If you have any questions or concerns during your visit, please press zero on your guest room phone.
We appreciate your understanding and cooperation.
So, what does a visual inspection entail?
Well, we have no idea because we didn't see it ourselves.
But I do know that somebody was in our room because one of the signs, the do not disturb sign was disturbed.
It was basically inserted in the door when we left it outside the door.
And I could swear somebody took one of my toiletries and moved it from one section of my bag to another.
But that could have been me.
But they were definitely in there.
I just don't understand.
What are they looking for exactly?
And what do they do if they find it?
I heard they're looking for flipper zeros.
But, you know, we had a Hope badge, and that's pretty much a flipper zero.
So, and the badges at DEFCON were pretty sophisticated as well.
So, yeah, there's all kinds of things they could have found.
You know, that is amazing to me that that would happen.
And I think if I were in a hotel that was getting an unwelcome visual inspection because there happened to be hackers in town,
I would, I don't know, I'd be speaking to the manager or at least making sure to be naked at that point or something.
But it does remind me of the little love notes that I occasionally get from the TSA when I have checked a suitcase.
Yes.
I mean, I'm assuming everybody's gotten them.
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes I find them tucked between my shirts.
What love notes?
Oh.
So.
They put a form in the bag.
They put a form in the bag saying, hi, we opened your bag to look in it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And you find it when you're unpacking.
Cute little forms.
They have a TSA logo and everything.
Good graphic design.
Right.
Yeah.
And except in this case, they don't really put a note.
They just sort of tell you this is going to occur, and you're to expect it.
And aside from seeing the privacy sign slammed in the door, you really have no way of knowing what went on.
The other thing that I think is sort of noteworthy is just there's a lack of transparency.
Like, who exactly is in charge of this?
How is this being administered?
What kind of recourse do you have if some of your property is removed?
Are you notified?
It just raised more questions than anything the more you thought about it.
But you had to put it out of your mind if you wanted to attend this event, and you happened to be hooked into one of the hotels that was participating in these screenings.
But it felt a bit of very sort of, I don't know, like you're out of control.
It felt like something that was being imposed without your consent after the fact.
Like, you didn't get notified in advance.
It's only after the fact that you sort of have to deal with whatever policy they're instituting.
Yeah, and if that was a box you had to check at some point when making your travel arrangements and booking your hotel room,
that, yes, I consent to people searching my room just because there happens to be some other folks in town who may or may not be shady in some way.
That is amazing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, like, a lot of the people attending would probably be bringing things, tools, devices, just to talk about and to have as an example or to demonstrate things at this event.
So even items you bring that you're going to use in your exhibit or to share with other hackers could potentially be embroiled in some suspicion that a hotel employee has,
which really puts a lot of the people visiting in a weird place because they have to all of a sudden explain their fascination with, I don't know, like lockpick sets or, you know, flippers, as we were talking about, and other electronics.
And then, of course, as he mentioned, the badges themselves are, let's just say, entirely capable.
Like, these are whole-ass general computers.
You know, they're microcontrollers that can be modified to do kinds of different things.
And, you know, to then have the badges for each of these, if you take it to a kind of an extreme logical extent, all of a sudden we're being kind of entrapped with electronics that could be somehow used in some way.
And I think that's the real kind of security theater part of it, is that it's really just, is something looking like it might be suspicious, basically turns it into a dragnet for everything that looks suspicious.
I had a copy of 1984 in my room.
Yeah.
Somebody was reading, okay, somebody came in there, and they read Beyond that I got to, so.
And this is in Las Vegas, where famously.
It's going to be very dangerous.
Yeah, this was in Vegas, where famously stuff that happens there is supposed to stay there, and I don't know, I think they, I thought they had this kind of reputation as kind of a chill town about, you know, certain things, but who knows?
You just never know.
Well, I think what's happening is the house is realizing it might not win.
You know, when people ransack, and I mean digitally, electronically, through their town that's really kind of a rigged puzzle for anyone there, I don't think they like it.
They don't like it when other people are making money off their customers or criming on their customers, so their customers say, hey, this city crimed on me.
I'm not coming back.
You know, what's also interesting, a lot of weird things have been going on, when we were in Vegas, Kamala Harris showed up in Vegas, and there was a rumor she was going to give a talk at DEF CON, because there are hackers around called Hackers for Harris that actually were at DEF CON as well.
So, but no, she actually spoke at, I think, a university or something like that, and now, apparently, Republicans are saying that it was all fake, that there was no crowd there, and there was all AI, it's incredible how, you know, you can have reporters there, you can have all kinds of evidence, but it doesn't matter.
You can actually sell the idea that something was fake, and then we went to Los Angeles, and guess who showed up there, the vice presidential candidate, Walsh, was there.
So it's kind of weird how things seem to be following us.
Alex, you had something?
I'm surprised, Emanuel and Kyle, that nobody had watched the watchers here.
It would have been so incredibly simple to set up something like a video camera and watch these people coming in to inspect rooms to see what it is that they're inspecting.
I'm sure somebody must have some video footage of somebody coming into the room and doing this.
And my other question there.
Yes, go ahead.
Well, it strikes, that's a great point, and it basically goes precisely to the fact we weren't warned of it.
We didn't know that we were to anticipate setting up an ad hoc security system.
But go on.
I'm listening.
That's a good point.
And not being warned of it, I think, is an issue from a privacy standpoint, but not necessarily from a Fourth Amendment standpoint.
Remember that you are in a private hotel, and employees of this private entity, at the behest of whatever this entity is, can do whatever it is the hell they want with their particular room.
So it's not necessarily like your privacy rights, as they are considered constitutional rights, may have been violated by this particularly invasive policy,
because this institution only applies to the government, doesn't apply to these private entities.
So as much as people may be thinking this sounds like some kind of privacy violation, it's not necessarily a Fourth Amendment violation,
but your private privacy rights may have been violated in some way, but not in a way that could give rise, I think, to some kind of legal action,
because it would be hard to prove what your damages were by somebody coming in to inspect your room for something like a Flipper Zero.
But my other question is, we don't want legal damages, we just want to drag them in public over the coals a bit.
I can understand that.
But here's the weird thing about this.
If they're coming in to inspect rooms, it sounds like they were waiting until people weren't there to perform these inspections.
It's not like somebody knocked on your door and said, hey, I'm going to inspect your room looking for packing devices or penetration testing equipment or something like that, right?
Right, it's implied consent, basically on a TV screen.
But they're waiting for you to leave the room, right?
They must know when you're not there, and that's when they enter.
I don't know how they'd be looking at all the rooms in the hotel.
Now, there are many, many floors.
They probably just burst in or knocked first.
But what was interesting was this message was there the whole weekend.
And when we checked out, we couldn't get rid of it to check out.
In fact, we weren't able to check out because the message, it hung their system for some reason.
And, you know, we had to phone in, make sure we were checked out.
But it just completely messed up their own system.
Delightful.
Delightful.
Well, so what's next for you guys in your travels?
Well, we're kind of going aimlessly right now.
We're just heading north.
We headed west because we had to return the rental car.
And then we returned one rental car and got another one from a different company the very same day, within an hour, which I've never done before.
I've got to say something, though.
But cars today have become near impossible for people like me to drive because they're so full of distractions and things that I'm convinced are making the roads more dangerous.
A simple thing, like tuning the radio, requires you to look at a screen and make all kinds of choices rather than simply with your right hand tuning a dial or raise the volume or do something that you don't need to actually look at a screen for.
However, the first car we had was so annoying that every time I turned on my left turn signal to change lanes, it would emit this loud alert, which, you know, it took me a while to figure out what was even going on.
But it turns out that it does that to warn you that there's a car next to you when you turn your turn signal on.
Now, you know, I'm not stupid.
I know there's a car next to me when I put my turn signal on.
That turn signal is meant for the car behind them so that they can see that I'm going to be merging into that lane.
If I wait for the car next to me to pass by before I put my turn signal on, then it's too late.
Then I haven't given the person in back of that car enough time.
So, you know, they program these things as if you don't know what you're doing, and they make it so that you depend on the car to make decisions for you.
And it's highly annoying when you're just trying to drive a motor vehicle like, you know, people have done for many decades.
To have all these beeps and buzzes and indicators going off, you know, you have to consent that you're not operating the screen while driving,
but then that pops up while you're driving, and it's very, very distracting, and a simple thing like tuning the radio just becomes hazardous.
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You notice we haven't done this in a bit.
This is good, but we're doing it again now.
But I did have a thought.
Yes.
Something that occurred to me this morning.
Another New York radio station is going away.
I was reading about this this morning.
WCBS will be ceasing operations at the end of this month.
Yeah.
WCBS, an all news talk station, is going to be taking on ESPN radio.
It will cease to be this New York voice that it has been for so long.
And they're at 880 FM.
We are 99.5 FM.
We are in the middle of the FM band.
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So, everybody wins.
We're not getting much of what you're saying at all, unfortunately, due to the strange ways of data transmission.
Oh, I forgot.
Also, Emmanuel and Kyle, I hope you guys can hear me, even if we can't understand what you're saying right now.
But I looked it up.
And the Ventura Freeway, which is what it's known as, is a collection of three different highways and freeways in the Southern California area.
It is the 101 for part of it.
It's the 134 for part of it.
And, yeah, I lived in Los Angeles for a while, so say hi to my old stopping grounds.
So, yes, you may, in fact, be on the Ventura Freeway, on the 101.
So the Ventura Freeway is multiple freeways?
Yes.
What the hell are people doing out there on the West Coast?
If I knew, I would tell you.
Well, give to, that's give, the numeral to, WBAI.org is where you can help us out.
I'm hoping, oh, it looks like we actually lost Emmanuel and Kyle from the Skype connection.
Maybe you can use this to try and get them back.
I will sure do that, absolutely.
While we talk a little bit.
But, Alex, what's going on by you?
Oh, well, you know, I just came back yesterday, I think it was, from Florida.
I was down there.
I had the same issues with rental cars and beeps and gadgets and things like that.
I'm just, you know, not used to the blind spot indicator, much as, like, Emmanuel had mentioned.
And, yeah, I'm out here, actually, just for one night in Pennsylvania, then back to New York, then heading over to Europe for a bit for some vacation.
But I was down in Florida for my mother's memorial service, so that was, you know, what we were talking about last week.
And why, I wasn't able to go and see Emmanuel and Kyle talk at their panel on DEF CON.
And I think we have them back.
Are you guys back?
Yeah, we're here.
All right.
Welcome back.
Welcome back.
So, you know, a lot of news this week.
If anybody wants to address, I guess, the massive elephant story, elephant-like story in the room that we haven't addressed.
But there was a breach of the Trump campaign.
I'm sure we've all heard about, right?
It's been out there.
Yeah, it's been out there.
The Trump campaign seems to be blaming this particular breach on Iran and the Iranian Revolutionary Guards.
And so, I mean, this is pretty a massive story.
And, Kyle, what are your thoughts on that?
Yes, absolutely.
It's a breach of the campaign.
Yes.
Yeah, that's what we're talking about.
Can you hear us all?
Yes.
Oh, lovely.
Yeah, I can hear you fine.
Are you there?
We're just thinking that it's being used in such a lovely, like, victimized way, right?
Like, we feel bad for them.
All right.
You guys are still cutting in and out.
And I don't know where you are, but you need to find some internet tubes.
But, okay.
While we're trying to wait for their signal to reestablish itself, and it looks like we lost them again, there was something else that was going on in the news.
Well, not only was Trump's campaign attacked, but it looks like the Harris campaign was attacked as well.
And everybody's just accusing Iran, accusing each other, accusing whoever is most convenient to the story they want to tell, as happens in politics.
And, of course, nobody has shown proof of any sort of way, shape, or form, I believe, pointing to anyone in particular.
Yeah, I think that's right.
And it doesn't surprise me at all that there are attempts on presidential campaigns.
This is par for the course.
And, in fact, there's going to be a lot of information that would be of very, very high value to any kind of foreign intelligence organization that would be looking to acquire information about, let's say, the foreign policy standpoints of particular candidates that may or may not be the president of the United States.
And so the email inboxes of campaign staff are going to have a tremendous amount of information that would be considered extraordinarily high value.
What I find very interesting about the attack on the Trump campaign was that the attack occurred based on the reporting that I've read in that it targeted a former campaign advisor and was able to breach the email address of a former campaign advisor.
I believe earlier today or yesterday it came out that that was very likely to have been Roger Stone, that might be an interesting character who was very well known around the Trump campaign around 2016 and 2020 times.
But his email address was apparently breached and the attackers then used that to send an additional spear phishing message from that legitimate Roger Stone email address over to somebody at the Trump campaign and that likely contained some kind of malicious link or contained some type of malware that then allowed the attacker to access the inbox or the machine of that particular campaign staffer.
So you're using the route of a trusted intermediary to breach the campaign staff, which I think adds a level of sophistication and understanding to whoever the attacker was behind this because they didn't try to replicate an email address or create an email address or register a domain that looked very similar to a legitimate domain.
They actually breached the actual address of this particular person and then used that as a jumping point to target the rest of the campaign.
So I think smart, but then also I think the media, the way in which they've handled these particular documents has been somewhat telling as well in that Politico received some documents from the attacker as well as the New York Times.
And they've been a lot more cautious in handling and reporting on the information contained within those documents than we saw eight years ago in the 2016 campaign.
Right. And there is a sense of karmic justice here in that the Trump campaign claiming, you know, that the media organizations that are reporting on these particular documents that were breached and that were stolen shouldn't be doing this.
It's unethical. It's stolen information, stolen data, et cetera.
Well, this is the same political candidate who in 2016 basically gave an open invitation to a foreign adversary, Russia, to hack the email addresses and find the missing emails of the Hillary Clinton campaign.
And so, you know, basically they've just given, you know, asked for Russia to interfere in the 2016 election.
So now they're crying foul. And this is also the same campaign that had claimed in, I think it was the 2016 campaign, that they love WikiLeaks and they love this whole notion of transparency and data going into the public sphere where anybody can review it and report on it.
Well, they don't seem to like this type of transparency when it applies to them. That, to me, is very telling.
Absolutely. But that's the political game, isn't it, where, like, everyone likes these things when they happen to the other person.
And, you know, the fact that cybersecurity is a day-to-day concern in pretty much every aspect of real life these days,
and that goes so many times higher for a political campaign, you know, it's probably the biggest target you could actually hit right now if you're looking to do something dodgy.
And it's, you know, whether it's political actors, I think the Harris campaign has reported that they've been, they've had attempts by what they call a foreign actor.
I don't think they mean, like, Gerard Depardieu. I think just somebody from parts unknown.
But, you know, it's a pretty sweet target if you're looking for that kind of target, either side, any side.
Well, it is, and it does seem like Iran has been stepping it up a bit lately.
A lot of reporting has indicated that Iran has been creating essentially bot networks on social media platforms that would amplify divisive content in the United States,
that they were behind additional divisive content that exhorted people to pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli protests in the United States,
that they are somehow behind many of those activities in various cities acting as essentially agent provocateurs for this type of thing.
And now this kind of interference directly in the presidential election wouldn't surprise me in the very least.
And don't forget that back in 2020, and I believe it was February of 2020, I remember this really quite clearly,
because I was still with, I was the acting CISO at the NFL, and Super Bowl was just a couple of weeks away,
and we, we being the United States, had taken out General Qasem Soleimani with a drone strike in Iraq,
who was the head of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, and they had vowed to avenge that particular assassination,
and that was nearly five years ago.
Actually, I think it was a little bit more than five years ago now, I think it was about five and a half years ago.
And then you had this really curious thing happening in, I think it was the New York court system,
I think it was the Eastern District of New York, if I recall correctly,
but there was a Pakistani national who was arrested, and who had very recently been traveling through Iran,
and this Pakistani national was charged with trying to implement some kind of assassination slash murder for hire scheme
targeting U.S. politicians and political candidates.
And so Iran really does seem to be quite active in what could be considered election interference in the United States,
and has really just been an agent of chaos over the last couple of weeks, and months in particular.
And if these reports are accurate.
Yeah, and I should correct something I said earlier.
It appears the Harris campaign has not identified whether or not they've been hit,
but people familiar with the situation have been quoted in some articles,
including an AP article that I'm looking at that said that there have been attempts.
But investigators have not uncovered any evidence that the attempt was successful.
It looks like we have Kyle and Emmanuel back while we've got a few minutes left.
How are you guys?
Well, we're kind of frustrated because trying to communicate is really proven to be difficult.
And, you know, here in California, there's no space anywhere.
I just pulled over to the side of a road, and, of course, everybody has to get right where I am,
and it's really frustrating just finding a space where I can stop and be on the phone for a second.
But I think we're okay now.
Can you hear us all right?
Yeah, you're sounding much better.
Okay, well, you know, I just want to say a couple of things about the WCBS issue, if that's still relevant.
Sure.
You know, it's a big deal when you lose something that has been around that long.
And WCBS AM has been a news station for over 50 years.
You know, it's almost to the point where it's rivaling WBAI as far as longevity.
We seem to be the only station that is able to do that, is able to survive.
It's particularly unfortunate in this case, though, because WCBS is just this voice that has always been there,
and we always assumed it would continue to be there.
And to find out that because the company that owns it and also owns WINS, the other all-news station in the country,
they don't see the value of having that station remain.
And that's the problem when people who don't appreciate radio are in charge of running radio.
Here at WBAI, I like to think that the people who appreciate radio are the ones running the show,
not the corporate executives trying to make a buck.
So to me, it's really sad to hear this.
Not only are we losing a news station, we're losing really historic call letters.
They're giving up WCBS.
They're giving up those call letters, which tells you just how little they care about history.
You know, as we travel through the country, we're always listening to radio.
We're listening to KPFK out here, you know, our sister station, another Pacifica station.
And it's fascinating to hear the parallels, the differences, the similarities, all of that.
But we're also listening to various commercial stations.
KNX is the CBS all-news station here in Los Angeles.
KCBS up in San Francisco.
WBBM in Chicago.
There are many, many stations.
And they all have their own unique flavor.
And they all have their ties to history.
These things should be respected.
These things should be preserved.
And as long as we let corporate America dictate how radio is defined, we're going to see more things like this.
We're going to see more pieces of history just obliterate.
We're going to see things like what Paramount has been doing recently in wiping out websites and episodes of old TV shows and things like that.
We need to take back the airwaves.
We really do.
R.A.I. is a great place to start.
Absolutely.
And we will have to leave it at that.
We're just about out of time.
We will not be doing off-the-hook overtime tonight.
We do not have the technical resources available today, but it will be back in the future.
Send us email, OTH at 2600.com.
And enjoy the fact that today is the anniversary of the Northeast Blackout of 2003.
Look that up online if you weren't around for it.
It is a very interesting reading and a fun event to look back on.
For off-the-hook, this has been Rob T. Firefly.
Have an excellent week.