The area code for the number you have dialed has been changed to 610.
Please hang up and redial using area code 610-215-4T.
We're sorry.
The number you have reached, 99.5 WBAI, is now off the hook.
Thank you for that.
It is my privilege and my pleasure, certainly an honor to be here in all of those capacities.
You all don't know how much of a thread we're hanging by and how easy it is to.
I'm going to go finish that other thing.
Yeah, finish that other thing because I have another thing for you, a surprise, which you'll find delightful.
I want to talk about artificial intelligence a little bit.
We have a bunch of things to get through tonight, and hopefully we can do it in the hour that we have here.
We have another hour coming up on YouTube afterwards on Channel 2600, so you can join us for overtime there where we're able to take calls and things like that.
But here we're going to talk about some news items.
This is something I found to be quite incredible.
Rob, I believe you found this story about this AI named Daisy that is run by the phone company O2 over in the U.K.
Now, O2 has created the human-like AI granny to answer calls in real time from fraudsters.
You know, it's people who call you up and try to waste your time or get information from you.
Yeah, granny will answer and keep them on the phone and away from customers for as long as possible.
Daisy is trained using cutting-edge technology and real scam-baiter content.
She is indistinguishable from a real person, fooling scammers into thinking they found the perfect target when really she's beating them at their own horrible game.
Now, the name of the woman doing this is Amy Hart.
She's a former Love Islander.
I have no idea what that means.
It's probably some kind of reality show over in the U.K., and also a scam victim.
She is working with Daisy.
She's made a shocking new video on that.
It's shocking.
I'm reading a PR piece here, obviously.
But basically, it exposes fraudsters' crooked tactics and helps customers of O2 swerve the scammers.
Yeah, it's interesting.
I want to play an excerpt from the demo here that they have, and hopefully this will come up smoothly.
To have a little chat.
It's nearly been an hour!
For the love of...
Gosh, how time flies.
It's showing me a picture of my cat, Fluffy.
It's showing you the picture of your cat, Fluffy.
Stop calling me dear, you stupid...
Got it, dear.
Because while they're busy talking to me, they can't be scamming you.
And let's face it, dear, I've got all the time in the world.
So whilst you're out enjoying life, Daisy and O2 are here fighting scammers.
Taking calls and wasting hundreds and hundreds of hours of scammers' time.
If you want to help Daisy and O2 ruin a scammer's day, you can report scam numbers to 7726.
Because you can't do it all on your own, can you, Daisy?
Who says I am, love?
Speak soon, scammers.
Oh, wow.
I love that.
That is amazing.
I'm not quite sure how it works, though.
Because the number they give out spells spam, 7726.
So, Gila, do you understand what happens when you get one of these calls?
How are you supposed to handle it?
Well, unfortunately, this is only working in the UK right now, which is kind of heartbreaking, because I would be all over this.
So basically what they're suggesting is when you get a spam text or a spam call, that you then forward the text or forward the number that you got the call from to 772656 to the spam number.
And then Daisy will call them, basically.
Wait, Daisy's going to call them?
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, all right.
I thought it was calling Daisy or somebody.
You hit a button and then Daisy takes over and starts talking to them.
Because why would they pick up the phone?
Who calls scammers?
You know, I mean, I don't think I've ever done that.
No, this is really fascinating.
I was doing a lot of – I was reading the whole swerving the scammers campaign that O2 and Virgin Media are doing.
And, yes, I recognize that this is all press release-y, self-serving kind of stuff.
But it's also very cool.
And on the swerve the scammers page, they have a whole list of things that they're like, if you're getting this phone call and you're not 100% sure what's going on, the best thing to do is hang up and call back.
And all these – so they've got this chick from Love Island who, you know, as crazy as reality TV culture is here, it is all the more so in the UK.
So this woman who was a contestant on Love Island who got scammed and scammed hard is now, like, the human face of this campaign to say you think it's only going to happen to somebody else, but it can, in fact, happen to you.
So, you know, she's working with Daisy and listeners can't see my air quotes, but I'm totally doing them.
And so this whole idea that it happens to everybody, even the semi-famous, and we're trying to do this thing that, you know, now we're just going to waste the time of scammers.
And the thing I really – 7726, that's it.
The thing I really enjoyed is listening to these people getting angry on the recordings that were in that video.
I am only sorry that we are here and cannot contact Daisy ourselves.
Well, for now, for now, anyway.
Yeah.
And you are right about the reality shows over in the UK.
When I was there once, they had a channel, you know, the show Big Brother.
I've never watched it, but I'm aware of it.
They had a channel, just a live feed, that showed people sleeping, and that's all it did for about eight hours.
So they're a lot more into it than I think we are here, which doesn't seem possible, but it is.
Now, I know, Alex, you've had some past dealings where you kind of acted like a daisy and wasted a lot of scammers' time.
Do you feel threatened by AI taking over that position?
No, I think it's a wonderful innovation because my hours are very limited in the day, but apparently Daisy can just keep going and going and going.
But I've done some of this disruption really, I guess, mostly for fun.
And one of my favorite things to do is when they call me, I try to make them think that they may have some kind of whale on the hook.
A lot of times these scams focus on some form of remote access where they may want you to navigate to a particular web page, install something like TeamViewer or LogMeIn, something like that,
where they give you an actual URL, type it in there, and then essentially you're granting this person on the other end remote access to your machine.
And so I love to stymie them by telling them that, look, you know, if I really do have a virus on my machine or there's malware or whatever the hell it is that the scam is telling me it needs to be done in order to make myself clean and safe from a cybersecurity perspective,
tell them, oh, look, this is really important that I get this done quickly because this is where we keep all of our companies' Bitcoin on this machine.
And so then, you know, that's very, very interesting to them, of course.
And then I will go over to the LogMeIn page.
Okay, that's great.
I've navigated over there.
I've navigated.
But it's telling me that, you know, it doesn't have the right client.
I'm not using the right saying something like it doesn't support this particular operating system or something.
Well, what are you using?
Are you on a Mac?
Are you on Windows?
No.
Oh, you must be on Linux so we can give you a different URL.
We'll give you a different URL for Linux.
No, no.
I'm not on Linux either.
Well, what are you using?
And then I tell them that I'm using OS2, you know, this old kind of ancient operator.
And most of the time the scammers have no idea what OS2 is.
So OS2.
So then they look it up.
And then they're scrambling to try to do research to try to find a browser that would be compatible with OS2 that they could then use for remote access.
And it gets them really spun up and gets them thinking to do that.
So that's been fun.
I would love to play around with Daisy and see how she works.
But I also want to address one other quick thing because very oftentimes you do have to call the scammer sometimes, Emmanuel, as well.
Because sometimes these scams come in the form of emails or they come in the form of some kind of pop-up from let's say you've landed on the wrong domain name by accident.
Like last week we were talking about the sponsored links.
You may have clicked on some kind of malicious sponsored link that lands you on a page that throws up a pop-up telling you you have malware and you need to call this number to disinfect your computer.
So in that sense, you might actually be calling the scammer instead of the scammer calling you.
But my understanding from reading the articles about Daisy was that you report these numbers to her and then she goes and actively calls them and then will also answer calls from known scam numbers preemptively on behalf of O2 customers, which is really kind of interesting.
But Alex, that begs a question.
So if she is calling numbers that have been reported, what's to stop somebody from reporting my phone number to her and having Daisy call me and harass the hell out of me?
Well, that's what I was just going to suggest because I think that would be so much fun.
You are the first suspect if that happens, Alex.
All right.
So, yeah.
Write that grin off your face.
Rob, go ahead.
What I love about this, it's ingenious and it reminds me of, I want to say, 20, 25 years ago, I was in with a crowd who played with a lot of things, including prank phone calls.
And, you know, shout out to my phone losers out there.
And we had this talker program going around that was a voice synthesis program.
And you could do a bunch of weird voices on it, robot voices, old lady voices.
And this wasn't AI generated.
You had to type what you wanted it to say and then it would say it to whoever you were on the phone with.
But the old lady voices were always the ones that were great for pranking with because, you know, people on the other end of a phone call are, you know, trying to stay calm because it's a little old lady somewhere.
They're more likely to listen because it's a little old lady.
They're more likely to try and be patient because it's a little old lady somewhere.
And that character is just so great for something like this, because both because it's kind of the target of scammers where they think they're going to get somewhere with that sort of person.
But also it's believable that somebody like that would be so flummoxed by trying to get, you know, you know, your your your software to work or anything like that.
So it is a great way to massively waste these people's time, which is, I think, the best response to any kind of phone scammer.
It is funny to hear a company, a phone company, saying that this this product will waste hundreds of hours of someone's time.
And that's a selling point.
But I guess in this particular case, it's a good selling point.
One thing that confused me, though, it's a video.
You see the woman.
In fact, you can see her with her cat as she's speaking.
Why do we need to see her if she's calling on the phone?
I don't understand why they went to the trouble of or is this just a demo of a real human?
It looked really realistic.
So it's a little confusing what O2 is up to here.
I think I think that's more of a marketing thing for the company doing this just to give the character a face.
But, you know, it works.
It's cute.
OK, Alex, go ahead.
You know, one one flip side of this that we and others may not have thought of is that very often when it comes to these types of scams that involve cryptocurrencies, digital assets and in particular pig butchering scams, you know, this could have a bit of a dark side.
Hang on a second.
Pig butchering scams.
Fresh moment around that again.
Pig butchering scams.
Sure.
I can describe what that is for our listeners if they're not familiar.
So, Emanuel, Kyle, any of you, I'm sure you guys have gotten text messages from people that are extraordinarily polite but have the wrong telephone number, right?
Like, hey, I need to cancel my yoga session tomorrow or, you know, whatever it is.
And this is, oh, is this is this Devin?
Oh, I'm so sorry.
I have the wrong number.
I might.
I'm sorry.
I bothered you.
Have you received text messages like that where somebody is trying to open up a line of communication with you?
Yeah.
How does it involve pig butchering?
OK.
So, what's happening there is they're establishing a relationship with you.
This is the precursor to a long-term social engineering scam that often involves romance, some aspect of romance or in friendship.
And you get to know this person.
You know, they'll text you.
They might even call you.
You develop a relationship with them.
You never really meet them.
Why would anybody do that?
You just say you have the wrong number.
Goodbye.
Why would anybody pursue that?
Because people are lonely and there's somebody really friendly on the other side and they might send you a picture that, you know, wasn't actually for you, but it's of this attractive person or somebody or they might have done some research on you.
They know what buttons to push.
But in any event, these things will go on for months.
They eventually will get you to invest money in something and then they bleed you out over time, essentially fattening the pig before it's totally butchered, right?
So, these are what's known as pig butchering scams.
But on the other side of these scams, I mean, this has been a really, really big problem that started during the pandemic because people were so lonely.
And it's a massive problem in the United States.
There's tens and probably hundreds of millions of dollars that is lost every year.
And a lot of it goes unreported because people are so embarrassed to have been taken by many of these scams.
But let's say you spin up one of these fraudsters who's involved in a pig butchering scam.
Well, you think, oh, that's great because now it's sapping the resources of this particular scammer.
It can't scam other people.
But very often, the fraudsters and the scammers are also victims themselves in these types of schemes.
Many times, they come from places, very, very poor countries in Southeast Asia like Cambodia or Vietnam looking for some kind of work.
And then they wind up in captivity and being human trafficked into these compounds where they're forced to scam for 16, 20 hours a day.
And if they don't meet their quotas, they can actually be physically beaten for this type of thing.
So, I think there is this dark side to the notion of, well, let's just spin up these scammers and prevent them from having any victims.
And, you know, I think, you know, we're treating a symptom of the problem here with Daisy and not necessarily the cause.
And this could have really major ramifications on people's physical safety in some places.
It's really, you know, it's really, it's rare that I take this position, but it's really hard for me to feel sympathy for somebody who is actively trying to rip me off, regardless of the situation they're in, which you have no way of knowing what that situation is, unless you have some kind of camera and can see what, who's actually talking to you at that moment.
It could be anybody, it could be somebody down the block, you don't know this.
So, I don't know, that's kind of falling on deaf ears here.
Usually I'd be very sympathetic with something like that, but without actual evidence of a specific instance, it's very hard to feel sympathy.
Well, it is, it's hard.
It's hard to identify who's in any of these situations whatsoever, but it's very well documented that this is happening more and more and more.
It's a terrible thing.
It often involves kind of states that are on the brink perhaps of failure or known to be extraordinarily corrupt.
And local police will just let these compounds full of scamper scammers coexist amongst society with, with zero repercussions whatsoever.
Very often mafia and criminal enterprise controlled scam operations that are, that are massive.
Go ahead, Kyle.
Okay.
I just want to kind of also put out some suggestions in contrast to the hellscape we're painting here.
Cause it is bad.
I would, I would get a constant stream of solicitations.
So, I mean, mixed in with stuff that, okay, maybe, you know, it's a fundraiser for something that I've already participated in.
That's expected.
They're going to come at back for, for a repeat business, especially if you didn't opt out or, you know, those I sort of expect, but a lot of the unsolicited ones I was having a lot of problems with.
And I'm just saying, this is all the more reason to avail yourself of any kind of software that can help you block stuff and reduce the amount of stuff that's coming in.
Even if I, and this depends on who you are.
I'm not saying this is the best way or that, um, that I'm bragging here, but I had a really huge, just a volume of crazy, crazy amounts of it.
I mean, I would play them back for you, Emmanuel, like just the, the hilarity of, and I still get voicemails occasionally, but as far as texting, um, there's pretty good tools for that.
And if your carrier provides any of them, even if you have like a weird handset or something like that, um, try to play with some of that to make it work for you.
There was a ridiculous situation where with a carrier, I think even the same carrier I'm with, but it's embarrassing to say I, I, they would like give you a certain amount of numbers you could block, but they really wanted to charge you at a certain point.
But I think it's become so bad and they're compelled to buy a lot of the hard work that's being done by advocates and people that are trying to, you know, make, make sure the carriers and the, the, the, and the consumers, uh, plight is, is in consideration in the business model.
And to my point that I think there's a little bit better, um, support.
And I found using some of that in my particular situation has substantially reduced it.
I don't really get that stuff.
If I get like alerts that something has been blocked and I can look at it within my phone's software, but really like, um, avail yourself of whatever tools you can find.
That's all I'm saying.
And don't forget, it's not a crime to ignore things.
If you don't know somebody is calling you, you don't have to talk to them.
You don't have to answer.
You don't have to acknowledge.
You don't have to do any of that.
And, you know, I just, I just realized how many problems of mine have been solved by simply ignoring, uh, frantic emails, urgent, uh, notices of various sorts.
Sometimes even when they're legitimate, it's better to just say, you know what, I'll deal with that when, when I have a second, not when you expect me to.
Don't be, don't be hustled.
Yeah, exactly.
On many levels.
Um, okay.
Uh, moving on to some, uh, listener mail also on the subject of AI.
This is interesting.
Uh, I thought I'd, um, I'd email to, uh, give you my current experience trying to collect a package from FedEx.
As it's a tale of annoyance of the current state of customer service with the adoption of AI systems to, quote, better direct your call, unquote, or the shipification, which is a radio edit for your convenience.
Thank you very much for that.
Of another system, uh, that could easily be done by a human being.
Uh, long story short, my local FedEx delivery driver could not be bothered to post a card telling me he tried to deliver.
And the first I saw of this was a message from eBay asking why I was not happy with the package as it was being returned to the sender.
I immediately went to retrieve the tracking number from the eBay app and tried to select an option on the FedEx website.
Uh, but it being complete garbage, it would not even show any options for how I want them to deliver my package, like attempt again, leave with neighbor, collect from the depot, et cetera.
Uh, so, um, cue the first AI assistant who had me in a tracking loop until I finally started deliberately misspelling and typing nonsense to trick it into putting me on a chat with a quote, unquote, live person.
Um, this sort of the first problem where I could collect the package, but I needed to call the depot to confirm a collection time within their working hours, uh, on calling the number listed in the depths of their website, uh, which is purposefully hard to find, but legally it has to be there somewhere.
Uh, and then being directed to quote, there, a new number, unquote, upon calling it, I was then connected to AI pretending to be human with all kinds of inflections and fake laughs.
Um, again, it was, uh, sitting me in a loop saying that it could not connect me as I wasn't the sender or I would not sign up to an account.
Um, then I remember one of your social engineering panels, uh, from 2006, maybe 2008, uh, when I first started listening to off the hook and off the wall, uh, where you, Emmanuel, were trying to get someone on the phone from AT&T shouting representative down the phone, cutting off the rebel voice.
Each time it tried to, um, uh, enter a number, uh, upon saying representative, it unlocked, finally put me in touch with a human, but unfortunately I'd been so long stuck in the AI loop that the depot had closed.
Anyway, uh, a site like, uh, get human, and I'm not sure what this means.
Say no to 0870, uh, that, that does work sometimes, um, and they are a help, but, uh, it, it misses more than they hit as big corporations try and save costs by making it harder for us.
That's the consumer to hold them accountable for the terrible services they now offer.
Um, yeah, uh, anyway, I keep up the great work, uh, with the radio show.
It makes my drives on a Thursday morning to work much more pleasant in the perpetual roadworks that are the UK motorways.
Thank you very much, Dom, for that, um, amazing, uh, letter and story.
And, uh, Dom also gives us a phone number, uh, to try, and I'd like to try it, Kyle.
This is the surprise I had for you.
Um, so, uh, this number actually is in the UK.
So, uh, what I'd like...
Wait, is the number for air, or do you want me to dial it first?
Well, this is what I'd like you to do, and, you know, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm just gonna air it all here over the radio.
Uh, I'd like you to dial it first and, and just basically judge if it's suitable to put on the air.
And if it is, we'll dial it a second time.
But when I hand you this piece of paper, I need to note that, uh, you see where it says plus 44 there at the bottom?
Yes.
Uh, you put an 011 in front of that, and the zero that follows the 44, just don't dial that.
That's for domestic use only.
So only dial 01144 and then the number after the zero.
You couldn't have written it the way I would have, but it's more fun to explain it live over the air.
So you're setting me up for such failure here.
Okay.
We could be connecting right now, but you're going to connect.
It's not going to go over the air.
Oh, I'm wasting time.
Yeah, you're going to, you're going to connect, and then you'll tell us if it's worth calling.
While we have a chat, um, yes, 01144 and then no zero, just the rest of the number.
And it should connect to something.
And it, it, it might be AI, so, uh, you could be fooled.
Uh, yes, Alex, go ahead.
With regard to that zero that Kyle is about to omit from the number, those, that's used in the United Kingdom for dialing city codes, if I recall correctly.
You put a zero in front of the city code.
It's kind of like our one.
We put a one in front of the area code, uh, which you don't do if you're dialing, except you do because our country code happens to be one, but it's a different one.
If you're calling overseas from overseas, you generally dial zero, zero from overseas, then one for the United States and the area code number.
Uh, I don't know why we have to dial ones anymore for area codes.
So Kyle, you have a, um, a report here.
Uh, you're going to dial it a second time.
I'm not going to put this on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think we can go with this.
Okay.
All right.
So Kyle's going to redial the number and we're going to put this on the air.
Uh, and yes, folks, we do have a phone line hooked into our board.
So, uh, look for, is there anything specifically I was supposed to look for?
No, just not waking up some poor old lady in the middle of the night in the UK.
Hey, you know, I was worried that might be what they did.
They seemed attentive.
Okay.
I'm like ready to discuss things.
Okay.
Let's, let's, let's, let's do it then.
And, um, this supposedly is AI.
It's not a human, but I guess we'll find out.
Uh, no, it's not, let's not say anything too offensive.
Um, but we will try to get some kind of a, um, a response.
And this is the kind of thing that we have to get used to.
It's going to happen all the time.
All right.
I think we're, we're getting connected.
Please hold while we connect your call.
Hello.
Thanks for calling FedEx.
Please type in your account number or pin, followed by hash.
If you don't have an account or pin, please press zero, followed by hash.
Uh, I don't have a touchtone phone.
What do I do?
Well, this isn't very good.
This is not, this is not AI, I don't think.
This is just a recording.
Sorry.
Please type in your account number or pin again.
You know what?
Followed by hash.
Can you just type?
If you don't have an account or pin, please press zero,
followed by hash.
Zero pound sign.
They call it hash.
Okay.
This call may be recorded for training and quality purposes.
Visit our privacy notice at FedEx.com for information on how we process your personal data
and on the exercise of your rights.
I never thought of FedEx being in the UK, but I guess...
Hi, thanks for calling FedEx.
How can I help?
Yes, hi.
I was trying to find my package.
Sure.
I just need to collect some details.
What's your item's shipment number?
Oh gosh, I don't have that information.
I was hoping you might be able to tell me.
How can I help?
Well, I just said, uh, can you tell me the shipping number for my package?
Sure.
I just need to collect some details.
Yeah, sure.
What's your item's shipment number?
Well, that's what I'm asking you.
Can you tell me what the shipping number is?
The shipment number is a 12-digit number.
You should find it in your confirmation email.
What's your item's shipment number?
Yeah, you see, um, anyone else want to give us a stab?
Because I don't think I'm getting anywhere.
Alex?
Um, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Take your time.
Sure, thank you.
Can you hear me all right, operator?
In that case, you should contact the account holder about getting your shipment number.
Is there anything else I can help you with today?
Uh, can you tell me what time it is over there?
The delivery time depends on the type of service you ordered with us for your shipment.
Wow, this is bad.
Do you know your shipment number?
Okay, look, we're doing this again.
Uh, I just need to know what time it is where you are physically located right now as a human being.
Can you tell me that?
The delivery time depends on the type of service you ordered with us for your shipment.
Do you know your shipment number?
Yes, I do.
But can you tell me, are you a robot?
What's your item's shipment number?
Five.
Are you a robot?
You messed it up, Alex.
If you go to our website, FedEx.com, you can reach us through the online chat.
Or you can contact the account holder.
I'm only able to transfer account holders to our customer service agents, I'm afraid.
Why?
Is there anything else I can help you with today?
Uh, yes.
How can I help?
What's the phone number for UPS?
The quickest way to find a delivery station is to use the FedEx location section on our website.
Go to FedEx.com and scroll all the way down.
You'll see it under More About FedEx.
Goodbye.
Is there anything else I can help you with today?
Goodbye.
Please.
Goodbye.
Have a lovely day.
Goodbye.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
I don't know, guys.
I don't...
I wasn't impressed.
I wasn't that impressed.
I mean, it's AI, but you could tell it was AI.
Her responses were awful.
She didn't really engage in conversation.
It just...
It felt artificial.
What out of 10?
Um...
I'm going to give it a 3.
We're going 3?
Yeah, because, you know, um...
Uh, it was clear.
You could understand what she was saying, but she wasn't really addressing the...
The, um...
Uh, the questions.
And I didn't really get the sense that she was trying to fool me at all.
Uh, it was so clear that this was, uh, AI.
And, um, not a very good one at that.
But, you know, it scares me because I know it's going to get so much better.
And there will come a day where I can't tell the difference.
Yep.
There are phone AI systems that will, like, do a fake laugh and assure you that they're
not a robot, um, when obviously they are.
And, uh, I was expecting something like that from this.
So it is a little disappointing.
I would say maybe, uh, maybe a 4 out of 10.
And, uh, Alex, I think maybe a 6 out of 10.
All right.
If you have AI numbers for us to try, please email OTH at 2600.com off the hook.
The, uh, program about technology, hacking, privacy, and all sorts of other scary things
in our future right here on WBAI, which, by the way, you should be supporting.
Uh, please keep this voice on the air.
Keep these many voices on the air.
Uh, go to WBAI.org or go to buddy.wbai.org to become a BAI buddy where you pay a monthly
amount and that adds up to a yearly amount, which really helps us out.
And, uh, unlike the, um, the PBS calls that Kyle was getting because he made the mistake
of donating to them once, uh, we will not harass you.
We will not, um, uh, hound you with phone calls or spam of any sort.
Uh, but we will invest your money into the radio station and keep 99.5 FM broadcasting,
uh, to the greater New York area, as well as to the world in a time where we really, really
need alternative voices.
You have no idea what we're facing coming up.
Go ahead, Rob.
Yeah, I mean, the, uh, the Tuesday after, uh, Thanksgiving, which is right before we're
on the air next week, is Giving Tuesday, I believe.
And, uh, that, that has become a day of, uh, sort of traditionally giving to causes and,
uh, organizations in which you believe, um, charitably speaking.
And, uh, yes, we at, uh, WBAI would very much appreciate being part of your Giving Tuesday
if indeed you celebrate.
And, honestly, even if you don't, um, there may be, there are lots of options, especially
as we come toward the end of the calendar year.
The Pacifica Foundation is a registered 501c3 nonprofit.
So any gifts you make to WBAI or the Greater Pacifica Foundation are, in fact, tax deductible,
um, amazingly enough, so you may be able, if you are a listener who has an IRA and you
are subject to required minimum distributions by the end of the year, you can make tax-free
RMDs to the Pacifica Foundation directly.
It's, it can be tax advantageous for you.
Um, you can see if your employer has a matching gift program.
There are all kinds of ways to donate to the radio station that are not necessarily going
to affect your monthly bottom line in any way that is problematic for you.
And, like I said, yes, we are WBAI.org.
If you visit WBAI.org slash about.html, you can find out about our 501c3 status.
So if you are a DAF holder, if you are an IRA enrollee and you want or need to make donations,
you can always look us up by our EIN number, which I cannot find at the moment.
But please believe me, if you look up WBAI or the Pacifica Foundation, you will be able
to find it in any place.
You'll be able to find us in any.
Direction of nonprofits.
That will enable you to give directly to the radio station.
You can always, always, always visit give to WBAI.com.
Org.
Org.
Darn it.
Nick, you can give that way.
But if you're also looking at other modalities, those are options as well.
We appreciate everything.
And don't forget that if you give an aggregate of $25 or more over the course of the year,
you become a voting member of WBAI, which is a very good thing to be.
So, again, that can be a BAI buddy.
If you give $2.50 monthly, congratulations.
By the beginning of next year, you'll be a member of WBAI.
We hope you give more.
But even $2.50 a month will do it.
Yes.
Thanks for all that info.
Now, tomorrow's Thanksgiving.
In fact, it's the latest that Thanksgiving can ever be, November 28th.
It can never be the 29th.
So that's something.
But, you know, a lot of us are facing some difficult times ahead, some questioning of where
we're headed as a country, where we're headed as individuals, what we're facing, the challenges
ahead.
It might be a tough time to say what you're grateful for, but I'm going to give it a stab
here.
First of all, I'm grateful for all you guys, because you really are one of the highlights
of the week, just hanging out, talking, and having this incredible facility to be able
to do that.
So I'm very thankful for WBAI and all the people who make WBAI possible.
And I just hope that in the challenging times ahead, we get to meet more of them, and we
get to come together and join forces, despite differences, which we inevitably will have,
to fight what I can only describe as darkness and evil and hatred, prejudice, a lot of bad
things.
But this is where we have to stand up and be counted.
And I really hope that that's something that we see, not only with WBAI and Pacifica, but
throughout society, because we really, really need that more than I think we've ever needed
that before.
Alex, I wanted to ask you something, a little bit off topic here, but kind of still along
the vein of what we talk about.
Um, we're seeing the, um, um, various members of Trump's cabinet being announced.
And, you know, it's, it's usually a light point of the day where we all have a good laugh
as to just how incompetent this person is.
Um, but something that really concerns me is the, um, what, what, what seems to be, um,
um, I guess a policy of bypassing FBI background checks.
What Trump is saying is that they're just going to use private security or some kind of private
investigation, uh, to vet people.
And he's extremely hostile towards, uh, various law enforcement agencies, including the FBI.
It seems like he wants to just not use them at all, uh, not acknowledge them at all.
And we could wind up with a bunch of super unqualified and possibly dangerous people in very powerful
positions.
And I was just wondering what, what, um, your view on that is.
Is there any kind of, um, uh, legal response to this that still exists after the Supreme
Court has been compromised along with so many other federal courts in the, in the country?
Uh, can the FBI background checks of some of the most important positions on the planet,
can that legally be bypassed?
Yeah, this is a, I think a really terrifying prospect that the Trump administration is proposing
here, having gone through the background check for a top secret clearance with access to sensitive
compartmented information.
When I used to work within the intelligence community, I mean, it's no joke.
It is a very serious, very rigorous background check.
I also had to be subject to a polygraph with respect to my lifestyle.
So a lifestyle polygraph, one of the topics, by the way, was the misuse of information technology.
So that was a fun one to deal with during a, uh, a polygraph as somebody who's a hacker.
But look, I told the truth, I got through it and I wound up getting the, uh, security clearance
at the time.
It seemed improbable that they would grant it to me, but, uh, but you know, there, there you
have it.
But I think it was extraordinarily important vetting process because they're looking for
vulnerabilities in people.
And I think Trump wants to bypass this very obviously because the people that he's proposing
have vulnerabilities.
They have weaknesses.
They would be considered unfit most likely for any kind of security clearance, let alone
a top secret clearance that they're probably going to have if they're working within intelligence
or law enforcement.
Uh, and not to mention access to sensitive compartmented, highly controlled information.
These are our nation's secrets being put into the hands of people that are eminently unqualified.
Uh, he's looking for some kind of private investigation firm, some kind of private sector entity that
he can essentially just pay to rubber stamp on some nonsense investigation and then grant
these people a security clearance by virtue of his executive fiat.
Uh, legally, I don't think there is a, a lot that can be done because he is the president
of the United States and he has extraordinarily wide latitude with respect to who gets access
to certain intelligence documents and who does not.
He can classify and declassify documents at will as well.
So it would be very, very difficult, I think, for somebody to do this.
I would say though that, you know, maybe there is an avenue by which you may be able to seek
something like a writ of mandamus from a federal court that would compel an agency not to use
these types of private investigation firms as opposed to official government channels for
these types of investigations because of the grave national security consequences here.
And, and I really want to emphasis the word grave here because people can be going to
their graves if certain information is compromised.
We're talking about sources and methods of intelligence, of intelligence collection.
And those sources are people who are putting their necks and lives and their families' lives
on the line for the benefit of the United States, often in hostile territories where
to, to work with the United States and the intelligence community, let's just say,
wouldn't be the best way to win friends and influence people.
So I think this is really dangerous.
There aren't a lot of remedies that I can think of off top of my head to, to fix it.
But also just while, while I'm here talking, I want to say, you know, I'm, I'm also very
thankful for WBAI this Thanksgiving, this special Thanksgiving show and this, this sense of
belonging or the, you know, as the, the Welsh would say, this sense of kind of Kenevan or
this habitat, the sense of belonging that tends to, tends to, to shape us and mold us into
who we are because this place definitely has done that for me over the last 30 something
years.
Yeah.
I have to echo that.
I can't, uh, emphasize enough how much, um, uh, this show, let alone the station has, uh,
helped all of us individually, but also so many other people, uh, who have listened to
the show or have been featured on the show in one way or another.
Um, it's so important to be able to, um, to reach out to all of you.
And, uh, we are definitely grateful for that.
Uh, but you know, your words kind of terrify me because it seems like there's, there's, there's
precious little that can be done.
And I wonder if this is some kind of fatal security flaw in our constitution where we just
put too much credit on one person.
And if that one person happens to be a maniac, there's nothing you can do.
And if he works with other people that are dedicated to making this maniac as powerful
as possible, and they, they, they play the long game and stack the courts and get rulings
and precedent, um, it just seems like you've got a situation that's not easy to get out
of anytime soon.
I mean, you know, we have, um, uh, the, uh, the house of representatives, which is more concerned
with keeping a trans member of Congress out of the women's bathroom than anything else,
you know, I, I mean, I, I cannot think of an institution, high schools, universities, uh,
commercial buildings that haven't treated situations like that far better than elected
officials have done.
It's, and this is what we have to look forward to and, and, and shout out to Sarah McBride
for being the adult in the room there, maybe the only adult in the room saying she's not
going to have this ridiculous fight with them.
She'll obey whatever rules they come up with, but it's obviously, it's obviously completely
insane and, and such a, a big deal out of something that should not be a big deal at all.
And, you know, it's, it's, it's really, it's not something you're, you're, you're motivated
to, um, uh, to fight because, you know, if you win the fight, what do you get?
You get to share a bathroom with Marjorie Taylor Greene.
That's not much of a prize.
Come on.
It's awful.
The whole thing is, is ridiculous, stupid, and a waste of our time and an embarrassment in
front of the rest of the world.
But maybe we need this.
Maybe we need to go through all this, uh, in order to, um, to, um, I don't know, build up
stronger, but again, tough times ahead.
We'll just have to be, uh, alert and, and, and stay on top of things and, um, make sure
people have a voice.
Yeah.
And, uh, we can do that on, we can do that here on WBAI only with the help of you, the
listeners and, uh, you know, talking of things for which we're thankful.
Well, I am so thankful for each and every one of you out there who have, um, been so
gracious as to continue to allow us into your homes, into your cars, into your earbuds,
headphones, speakers, various audio induction devices, and, uh, you know, take interest in
what we're doing here on this program, on this station, um, on this network.
And, uh, you know, it's just you that keeps us going.
It's just you.
That's the reason we do every single bit of what we do here.
And, uh, it's, it's really, it's really an amazing thing that this, uh, station was
even able to happen at all in the first place.
Nothing like this could ever just fall into place again.
Like it did look at the history of the station.
If you'd like a really interesting read and, uh, yeah, just keep us going, uh, give to WBAI.org.
Hey, we have another letter.
Um, again, you can write your letter to OTH at 2600.com.
And this comes from Gapster.
Uh, just got done listening to Off the Hook from, um, the 20th last week.
It's either the, uh, Overtime or the show on WBAI.
Uh, you were talking about bad URLs.
Uh, you probably already know this, but, um, you didn't bring it up during the broadcast.
Actually, I didn't know this, but a decent site for checking URLs and files is VirusTotal.
That's www.VirusTotal.com.
As a ham radio person, I have to look for old drivers all the time, especially for Chinese
radios.
And that site comes in handy often.
So, um, yeah, uh, actually it confirms this was the radio show last week, not over time.
Uh, please keep doing what you're doing.
I will be listening.
Thank you, Gapster, for that, for that letter.
And again, uh, if you want to write us a letter, O-T-H at 2600.com.
Go ahead, Alex.
You are muted once again, Alex.
You're still muted.
I don't know why you have such trouble with this.
It's a button.
Now I'm back.
Now I'm back, right?
Okay, yeah.
Yeah, it's annoying, because using an X-Tar, but anyhow, the, uh, I think it's a great point
that Gapster brought up there, you know, and we totally did omit that.
Another great resource to check URLs is urlscan.io.
Uh, and that will also check it for kind of known IOCs or indicators of compromise, malware,
other reports.
You'll be able to see if other people scan that particular site, maybe get a screenshot
of it before you visit it.
So urlscan.io as an input output or Indian Ocean is, uh, it's also a great resource.
And, uh, to close off, uh, tonight, um, an online course founded by the far-right influencer
Andrew Tate was breached by hackers, revealing the email addresses of roughly 325,000 users.
The, uh, self-described online university known as The Real World offers users advanced training
and mentoring for around $50 a month, formerly known as Hustlers University.
They have no shame, do they?
The, uh, platform focuses on topics such as health and fitness, financial investment,
and e-commerce businesses.
Money-making is a skill.
The website states, we will teach you how to master it.
On Thursday, the hackers made their actions known by flooding the course's primary chat
room with emojis they uploaded while Tate was streaming an episode of his show, Emergency
Meeting on Rumble.
The emojis included a transgender flag, a feminist fist, an AI-generated image of Tate draped in
a rainbow flag, uh, another where his buttocks are enlarged, and, um, the cat character used
in the boy kisser meme.
So, I don't know, is that enough?
Does more need to be said?
Um, you know, this doesn't make me feel bad at all.
It really doesn't.
Uh, it's a horrible person, uh, that attracts more horrible people, and any embarrassment
that goes their way makes me smile.
Uh, the Daily Dot was provided with approximately 794,000 usernames for what are believed to be
the site's current and former members, as well as the contents of the platform's 221 public
and 395 private chat servers.
A list of 324,382 unique email addresses that appear to belong to users who were removed for
failure to pay, was also handed over, uh, in a statement on the breach.
The hackers claimed that after accessing the data, they were able to leverage a vulnerability
to upload emojis, delete attachments, crash everybody's clients, and temporarily ban people
from the platform.
So, uh, yeah, um, analyst of the chat logs by the Daily Dot shows everything from inspirational
quotes and progress updates to complaints over the LGBTQ agenda, which these people are obsessed
with, maybe it's just the MSM, one of them says, but I am starting to fear for my own safety
and the future of the USA.
Shootings every day, LGBTQ agenda, the matrix, I live in a very good area with a very good
home life, but I am sick of all the garbage happening here.
Wow.
Uh, the fear and imagination these people have, it's just, uh, it's, it's, it's unbelievable.
Um, so yeah, all of that is, uh, now exposed to, um, to everybody, I suppose.
Um, the email addresses from the dump were provided by the hackers to have I been pwned
a service that alerts users when their credentials are leaked and those email addresses, as well
as the chat data were also handed over to the journalism collective DDoS secrets who have
been on this show many times, which, uh, host hacked and leaked data to in the public interest.
And this certainly is in the public interest.
Any thoughts in the one minute we have?
The cat from the boy kisser meme is very cute.
Good to know.
Good to know.
Alex, quickly.
Alex, please.
Can you just leave the button off?
Yeah, there we are.
Is this, is this better?
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Anyhow, uh, happy Thanksgiving, everybody.
We've got some real time questions coming in, but you can join us on YouTube for overtime
in a few minutes.
That's right.
Uh, I will just say happy and I'm thankful for all of your hacks.
All right.
Good, good, good, good, good not to end on again, right to us.
oth at 2600.com support WBAI wBAI.org and join us at eight o'clock Eastern time on YouTube
channel 2600 for overtime, where we can take your calls and comments on the chat.
But have a good holiday.
Don't be too scared of what's coming up.
It's going to be nuts.
It's going to be crazy, but, um, it's also going to be funny and we're all going to get
through it together.
Good night.